Is Lucifer the Devil?

True, False, or Assumed?

What have YOU been taught about Lucifer? I was taught he was the highest archangel in heaven that wanted to take over God’s throne. He was the leader of music, as instruments were built into his very being. I was taught that he caused a war in heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels with him. When he and his angels fell to earth, he became the Devil or Satan. This must have happened before Adam and Eve were created, as Lucifer was also the Serpent that deceived them in the Garden of Eden.

When I read somewhere that some people don’t believe Lucifer is Satan, I set out to prove he is. How? By studying the Bible, like I do whenever I have a question (or when someone else has a question I wish to knowledgably answer). You might be surprised at what I found out. It does not appear that what I was taught is correct.

I carefully looked up and read all the passages churches use to claim this traditional teaching. I have typed them here for you to carefully read also. You will see that Lucifer cannot be the same entity as Satan himself!

Was Satan an Angel?

Let’s start out with the war in heaven. I couldn't believe it when I recently read a hub that taught Michael, the Archangel was the one who caused the revolt in heaven! Though I corrected him, he still chooses to teach falsely! Amazing! Let's read about this war and see literally what the Bible says: the only account of this is found in Revelation 12:3-4a “And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.”

Now go on to verses 7-8 “And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” So, it's obvious that Michael is not a fallen angel, let alone the devil. Also observe that Lucifer is not mentioned in this passage at all.

Now, let's look at what the Bible says about this serpent in the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:1 “Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, ‘Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

  • Cross-reference this with Gen 2:19 “Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.”

Serpent is the Hebrew word nachash (naw-khawsh'); a snake (from its hiss):-serpent.

So far, we see the DRAGON waged war in heaven, not an angel. We also see that the SERPENT was a created beast of the field. What we don't see here is any inclination that Satan was an archangel by the name of Lucifer. In fact, Satan is never said to have been an angel "from the beginning". Let’s see what the Bible says about Satan:

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Dragon is the Greek word drakon (drak'-own); prob. from an alt. form of derkomai (to look); a fabulous kind of serpent (perh. as supposed to fascinate):-serpent. In fact, if you study the book of Revelation, this dragon with seven heads and ten horns is Satan, who rises up out of the “sea” of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. Seven kingdoms with ten kings.

If you cross-reference the word "dragon" in Revelation, you will be brought to Psalm 74:14: “Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan”. For a pretty graphic description of this dragon, read Job 41!

Speaking of "crushing heads", what was the curse on the "serpent" in Genesis 3:15? "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel."

For more about Satan, I invite you to read one of my latest hubs, God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil? For now, we're going to focus on the identity of Lucifer.

Fallen Angels: Kings of the Earth

Was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden? Was he the serpent? Let’s look at the only passage used by traditional doctrine:

Ezekiel 28:12-16 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, ‘You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. On the day that you were created They were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.”

I don't see Lucifer mentioned here at all. In fact, it would be the "king of Tyre". I don't see an archangel mentioned here either, but rather a cherub. Did God place cherubim in the Garden of Eden? Yes.

Genesis 3:24 confirms, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”

The only passage that mentions the name Lucifer (v. 12) is found in Isaiah 14:11-17 “Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.' How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (a proper name inserted in Latin by the Catholics) ~ in proper translation, it would state "star of the morning" ~ son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'”

In order to know who helel (star of the morning) is, we must go to the beginning of Isaiah 14:3-4 “And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!”

Obviously, we see that the cherub, the king of Tyre, has the same make-up as Lucifer, the king of Babylon. The king of Tyre is said to have “tabrets and pipes”, whereas the king of Babylon is said to have “music of harps”. Are they one in the same? It doesn’t appear so, if you look at Ezekiel 29:18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."

These fallen cherubim were both the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') and are NOT the same entity, let alone Satan himself.

Cherubim (four wings)
Cherubim (four wings)
Seraphim (six wings)
Seraphim (six wings)
Archangel: Michael
Archangel: Michael

Compare the Angels

We can reasonably deduct that the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') are cherubim (instruments built into their beings based on scripture). Is a cherub a serpent-like creature? No. Is there an angelic being that resembles a serpent? Yes; the seraphim. How about an archangel? No. Let's look up some scripture about each of these angelic beings:

Ezekiel 10:20-21 “These are the living beings that I saw beneath the God of Israel by the river Chebar; so I knew that they were cherubim. Each one had four faces and each one four wings, and beneath their wings was the form of human hands.”

Cherub is the Hebrew word keruwb (ker-oob'); of uncert. der.; a cherub or imaginary figure:-cherub, [plur.] cherubim(s).

Isaiah 6:2 states, “Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." Now, seraphim are defined as the only serpent-like creatures; however, the Bible does not state that seraphim were in the Garden of Eden.

Seraphim is the Hebrew word saraph (saw-rawf'); burning, i.e. (fig.) poisonous (serpent); spec. a saraph or symbol. creature (from their copper color):-fiery (serpent), seraph.

The word “archangel” is only used twice in the Bible: once in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when Jesus returns with “the voice of the archangel”; the other is found in Jude 1:9 “But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” We also don’t see an archangel in the Garden of Eden.

Archangel is the Greek word archaggelos (ar-khang'-el-os); a chief angel:-archangel.

In the Old Testament, the word angel is the Hebrew word malak (mal-awk'); from an unused root mean. to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; spec. of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):-ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

In the New Testament, the word angel is the Greek word aggelos (ang'-el-os); to bring tidings; a messenger; esp. an "angel", by impl. a pastor:-angel, messenger.

Fallen Cherub? Abaddon/Apollyon
Fallen Cherub? Abaddon/Apollyon

A Fallen Angel: King of Sheol (Hades/Hell/Abyss)

We read that 'Lucifer' was the king of Babylon, a fallen cherub just like the king of Tyre. The king of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden, cast out as “profane from the mountain of God”. The king of Babylon (helel) was “brought down or thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit”. Is there a king in Sheol who is also an angelic being? YES.

Revelation 9:11 “The king who ruled them was the angel from the bottomless pit (also called the abyss). In Hebrew he is called Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.” Abbadon/Apollyon means destruction (perdition). This is the NAME of that fallen cherub, the king of Babylon! Read on!

Revelation 11:7 (Regarding the two witnesses) “And when they have finished their testimony, the beast (Antichrist) that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.”

Revelation 17:8 “The beast (Antichrist) that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.”

Earlier in Isaiah 14:13-14 we read that the king of Babylon (helel) weakened the nations and said in his heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Cross-reference this with the prophecies of the Antichrist to come in Daniel 7:25 “He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.”
And also cross-reference with Daniel 11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.” If you begin reading in verse 28, you will see that Daniel is speaking of the “king of the north”.

It appears now, that this 'star of the morning' is indeed a fallen angel, the king of the bottomless pit, who comes up out of that pit to be the king of end-time Babylon, the Antichrist. Lucifer was called “a man”. Did angels come in the form of men in the Bible? Absolutely (Genesis 19:1, 5; Luke 24:4). We already confirmed that fallen angels are kings of the earth. In fact, if you look at the definition of the word "angel" in the previous section, you will see they are not only kings, but can be prophets, priests, teachers and pastors!

The Dragon (Satan) and 'Lucifer' (the Antichrist) cannot be the same entity. Why? Because the Antichrist and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ (Revelation 19:20). Satan, on the other hand, is bound in the bottomless pit during this reign of Christ. He is released after the millennial reign, destroyed, then cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10).

Six Doctrinal Corrections:

So now, let’s answer the following questions, based on this study:

1. Lucifer was the highest archangel in heaven.

  • False. It appears he was a cherub.

2. Lucifer wanted to take over God’s throne.

  • True. He is the king of Babylon, the king of the north, the prophesied Antichrist in Daniel 11:36 & Isaiah 14:13.

3. Lucifer was the leader of music in heaven, as instruments were built into his very being.

  • Assumed. He appears to be a cherub with musical instrument(s) built into his being. So was the king of Tyre.

4. Lucifer caused a war in heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels.

  • False. The Dragon, who is the “Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan” warred in heaven and he was cast out with a third of the angels.

5. Lucifer became the Devil or Satan.

  • False. Because Lucifer is the king of Babylon and the prophesied Antichrist, he is cast into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ; while on the other hand, Satan is bound in the pit until the end of the millennial reign.

6. Lucifer was the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.

  • False. The Dragon possessed the created serpent, a beast of the field, to entice Eve into sinning. Furthermore, because the cherub placed in the Garden of Eden appears to be the king of Tyre, it is unknown as to whether Lucifer (the king of Babylon) was in the Garden of Eden at all.

The only scripture that would tie Lucifer and Satan together is found in 2 Corinthians 11:14 “No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” Helel, as we saw in Isaiah 14:12 means “star of the morning”. Speaking of “Antichrist”, Jesus Christ is also called the “bright and morning star” in Revelation 22:16.

Truly, the LORD guised (not disguised) Himself as an angelic being (a man) to Abraham (along with the two angels that went to rescue Lot) in Genesis 18. Likewise, Satan will disguise himself as an “angel of light” (1 Cor 11:14) by empowering Abbadon/Apollyon (aka Lucifer/helel), the Antichrist (Revelation 13:2). Consider also, that Satan's servants disguise themselves as angels of light, as shown in 1 Cor 11:15 "Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

For more information on Lucifer, I invite you to read my hub Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist

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Comments 193 comments

"Quill" 7 years ago

What a great Hub...very informative and as always captivating and filled with awesome research material. Thank You for yet another "Wow Hub"...

Blessings


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Quill ~ Bless you heart! Thank you for reading and confirming, as well as for the very encouraging comment. It's easy to test other doctrines, but in doing so, we sometimes end up testing our own "traditional" teaching. We're either all FOR the Word, or we accept "tradition". I just thought I would shed some more "light" on the subject. I appreciate you so much. God bless you!


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no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

I'm glad you debunked some of the "doctrines" about Lucifer that people just assume are true. I know you love the Lord with your whole heart and always try to use Scripture to the glory of God. You are an example of that with your love of Scripture and of God. You are an example to me my sister and I love you with my whole heart.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Praise the Lord, brother no body. I just kind of cringe when I see so many ministers continue to teach this doctrine in error. While the unlearned don't know any better, and it really doesn't matter to salvation, it causes the learned to doubt the absolute truthful guidance of ministers who really haven't noticed this, and even when they are challenged, they do not change their teaching. Isn't this the problem we have in witnessing to the lost? One believer told me I was greatly deceived and stopped talking to me? Of course, she didn't prove Lucifer is the Devil; she just went on her "feelings" or "opinion". That's terrible! I am open to anyone "debunking" what is written here scripturally, which, even on my forum on this topic, no one was able to. I appreciate your love and encouragement. I keep on keeping on...in His love and in His Name. Amen!


Robert E. Barger 7 years ago

Hello,

I have another thought to consider. I believe that Lucifer was, and is, a creation of Satan. As we look at Genesis 3 Adam and Eve were without sin "till" Satan talked Eve into being as God. Again Jesus told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil. Again in 2 Thessilonians 2 "that Wicked one" whos working is AFTER the working of Satan. And in Isaiah 14 it calls Lucifer "a man" that caused them to fear. And as it evplains in Romans 8 the carnal man and the Spiritual man. The carnal man is created after the working of Satan where the spiritrual man is created as God through Christ. Thats what I believe.

Brother Bob (Bless you in Jesus name)


andy 7 years ago

Judah’s Daughter,

Interesting subject, can’t expect a few postings to be exhaustive, was surprised though that Job’s situation was basically ignored in your writing. In Job the meeting between good and evil seems to have been on a legal level, with the Lord being Judge, Job being defendant on trial with a heavy duty prosecuting attorney who played the dual role of police entrapment. With the question being how is it possible for evil to have access to the Lord in such a seemingly intimate way as a court room setting? Is it possible that the prosecuting attorney is someone other than who we are led to believe? And where exactly does the prosecutor of this particular case get his?

Andy


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Brother Bob, "after the working of Satan" and "created after the working of Satan" are two different things. The former is scriptural; the latter is assumed. God created all things, even the Dragon. The Dragon or Satan is called the one "who deceives the whole world". Satan deceives God's creations, including the third of the stars (angels) that fell from heaven, and also mankind. While I appreciate your interpretation, it would not be consistent with Romans 11:36; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; Heb 3:4; Rev 4:11 and so many other scriptures that clearly state that God created ALL THINGS. God bless you, brother. I appreciate your contribution and love of our Lord.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Andy, while Satan was given the authority to be "the god of this world", he only has authority over unbelievers (fallen man) and is called their "father the devil". Adam and Eve were first given all dominion over the earth, but they gave it to Satan (fallen man). It is through the accepted reconciliation of Jesus Christ that man gives the authority over his/her life back to Christ.

In the spiritual realm, God has authority over all evil and prior to Christ, God's righteous ones (those who lived by faith as Abraham), including Job, were under His authority. Satan cannot touch God's kids without His divine approval. However, Satan has free reign over the lost. God allows Satan to roam and attack, in order that these trials will bring the lost to God's protection and salvation, thus fulfilling God's divine purpose.


Andy 7 years ago

Judah’s Daughter,

You bring up another good point in the story of Job and that is—who was Job. A child of God- certainly. A child of Jacob- most likely not, (if true then we can say that we have a non-Isrealite on trial for something that he did not do).

Andy


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Andy, if you read the entire account of Job, you will see Job was innocent and was not "on trial", as his "religious accusers" insinuated. Satan insisted Job would curse God if things got bleak for him, and God knew Job would not, and proved it. After this, Job received far more than he lost, because he did remain true to his faith in God. Likewise, we also must know that when trials come our way, it is to test our faith and because we stand firm, great is our reward!


Andy 7 years ago

Judah’s Daughter,

Your last to me is most interesting, (could go off in multiple direction but choosing to stay with Job for now).

Let us say for the sake of our discussion that you are right about Job not being on trial but only that he had “religious accusers”.

In your response “religious accusers” is in the plural which leads me to think that you are identifying Jobs “friends” that appear later in Job’s story. I on the other hand was responding to the subject in your original posting. So “religious accuser” from me is singular and this person appears at the beginning of Job’s story.

Instead of using the term “religious accusers” would it be proper to use another term such as “adversary”? Job had an “adversary”. And this “adversary”, you use the term “religious accusers” may or may not be the subject of your original post. Is this something that we would want to find out? If so then we can continue our cordial discussion. If not then we can leave it. But I am interested in your original subject and not so willing to change subjects, (but I will).

Andy


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Andy, Job 2:1 "There was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD..." The "sons of God", when translated appears to be the Jews (studying the word "son"), as they would "present themselves before the LORD". However, some believe these are the fallen angels, with Satan among them. The fallen angels are also called "sons of God" in other Biblical accounts.

The Accuser is Satan, and those who are of him do the same (fallen angels and man). Jesus told the Jewish leaders (as applicable) "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." (John 8:44), so all who accuse falsely are not of God in this account of Job.

Jesus indeed called the Jews "accusers", even in John 8:10 "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?" This woman was going to be stoned according to Jewish Law, the Law of Moses.

Not sure why you're needing clarification of this, but all to God's glory :-) Be blessed.


Andy 7 years ago

Judah’s Daughter,

Just wanting to be sure that I am on the same page as you are.

Depending on when the story of Job took place, it may be impossible to translate, “sons of God” in Job’s story as Israelites since the story could very well predate Jacob.

I think that you have now answered my first question which was-how evil can have an intimate discussion with the Lord. And that answer is that Satan has allies. These allies (men for example) of evil seem to be able to go into God’s presence in opposition to God’s children.

Andy


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Amen, Andy. I don't know about when Job was born, just that he was a child of God and the "religious" ones seemed to accuse him "that he must have sinned", etc. for the calamity that befell him. Abraham certainly was the Father of Israel, for he begat Isaac, who begat Jacob (renamed Israel) who begat the tribes of Israel. And yes, it appears that not only Satan accuses us before God day and night (Rev 12:10), but his children as well. God bless you, brother!


Royal Diadem 7 years ago

Great Pictures! fits right in.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yes, I love google images ~ you can find some really neat stuff on there :-) God bless you, Sister Royal :-)


JGelineau 7 years ago

If angels are more spirit than physical, what makes you assume that they cannot appear in a different form?

Perhaps Lucifer took the form of a dragon for the great battle. We picture them with wings, but do they really have wings? And when they appear to people in the form of a human, maybe they're just taking our form so as not to frighten us.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

JGelineau, we cannot assume, and in this hub assumption is not made, but rather the Word is taken literally. We must look at Bible examples to show us that angels took the form of humans, and obviously Satan is called the dragon, the serpent of old and the devil. Because the serpent was a created "beast of the field", we can conclude that Satan used this snake to tempt Eve. The Bible doesn't say an angel took the form of a dragon, so we cannot assume this. Good question! :-)


 7 years ago

You state that Satan is called the dragon, but arent you saying that Satan and the dragon are two separate beings? In your hub you mention the dragon giving Lucifer power in Revelation 13:2. Arent you making an assumption by saying that the "beast" is Lucifer? It never mentions him by name, it just says "beast."


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

? says ~ The Bible states that the Dragon is also called the "Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan", so that is clear. Lucifer, as he is only mentioned once in the Bible in Isaiah 14, is the king of Babylon. I have another hub called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist" that will give you even more information as to how he aligns with the coming Antichrist of the Great Tribulation. Basically, we know that Lucifer was cast down to Sheol (which is hell) and there is a king over Sheol who comes up out of that place and is the second beast or the Antichrist. Revelation states that the Dragon (Satan) gives him his power. Perhaps that will give you some more insight. God bless you :-)


thad 7 years ago

you state that the king of babylon is lucifer which I believe to be true. Then you state he was cast down to sheol ( which is hell ). I believe if you keep in context with this being the king of baylon sheol would be translated grave. Then you state that he comes back up from that place. So the king of babylon also has the power of life to ressurect himself? Carrie what n the name of God are you spreading? This is some of the most UNscriptual stuff I have ever read in my life! I love you Carrie, so I will pray for Gods help in how I should deal with you. With love, Thaddeus Cole


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thad, if you read this hub again, you will see that angels (cherubim) were kings (king of Tyre and king of Babylon). How could the king of Tyre be a cheribum in the Garden of Eden (as the Word clearly states), considering the flood happened long before the king of Tyre was a man? Likewise, the king of Babylon (Lucifer) was "fallen from heaven" (which happened before the flood). An angel doesn't resurrect themselves; they are eternal.

There is a king over Sheol (Hades/Hell) who will also come up out of that abyss (Sheol/Hades/Hell) and be the king of end-time Babylon, in which case appears to be Lucifer. It is not unscriptural, as that's all I use in this hub ~ scripture. For more on the obvious alignment of Lucifer and the coming Antichrist (king of end-time Babylon), I invite you to also read my hub called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist".


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lgolden1911 7 years ago

I appreciate your hub and your insight. I'm gonna have to read it again to make sure I don't miss anything. I scratched the surface a little bit concerning Lucifer translating into "morning star", but just assumed Lucifer and Satan were the same entities.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother lgolden1911! Yes, this is just the results of my study, as I too was always taught that Lucifer was the Devil; except that I cannot find scriptural proof of this. Truly, the dragon and his angels are all at work on this earth. It certainly is a fact that Lucifer is a fallen angel (possibly a cherub). Even religions such as LDS believe Lucifer caused the rebellion ~ nowhere can we find this in the Bible. The only account of this rebellion is in Revelation 12 ~ and Lucifer is certainly not mentioned in this passage, nor the cross-references. The dragon does align with Leviathan, which is another fascinating study. God bless you, brother :-) I'm so glad you joined HubPages! I look forward to reading more of your hubs!!


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itakins 7 years ago from Irl

Blessings for your defence of Michael the Archangel-I did notice that your comment was not accepted by the author-sadly-I had hoped he just made a mistake.

I did a brief defence of this great Archangel-if you would care to read it.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi itakins! I'm so glad you saw that I at least attempted to correct that blasphemous false teaching! I really thought the author was a Christian ~ perhaps he is, but if so, should be testing what he's been taught, especially if Michael is God's highest of angels! I did see that you were able to state the same thing, but I'm not sure he understood what "antithesis" meant, let alone who the "dragon" was? I was sure he would post my comment, but chose not to. I am glad that readers do understand what you said in your comments! God bless you!! Thanks for stopping by!!


itakins profile image

itakins 7 years ago from Irl

Yes,I saw it just prior to it being 'denied'-in fact I went back to it to show it to a friend -and it was gone-sadly!I actually wrote a short hub immediately afterwards in defence of Archangel Michael-on my hubsite-perhaps you could have a look-it's from perspective of Christian and R/C.I would be intereted in your valued opinion.

Great hub-and well done on defending The Great Archangel Michael.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

itakins, Amen! I read your hub and am thankful you addressed this issue. Does he not feel the least bit of responsibility for misleading readers that don't know any better? While I'm not R/C, I love our Lord as you do and we will defend His angels as they defend God's children!! God bless you!


Holy Hunter 7 years ago

Let me get this straight:the bible is a cover up that chages stories so people fall down the wrong path?Or religions make it that way?why does everyone try to find this infromation to confuse other people who follow the bible. I am trying to understand why people go this far to tell everyone the story in the bible is different? something is out of line,is is mankind or the bible?


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Holy Hunter ~ No, the Bible is not a cover up that changes stories. People teach traditional beliefs for years and some never challenge certain things, as this one, because it's not critical to salvation. The study results are here for all to see and study for themselves. I originally started my study to PROVE Lucifer IS the Devil, only to come up with the startling results published here. Frankly, it would be great to see someone be able to prove Lucifer IS the Devil using the Bible. Thus far, no one has been able to do it. I even posted a forum question for someone to prove it, to no avail.

Anyhow, we are told in the Bible to "study to show thyself approved unto God" and to be like the Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so" (tested what they were told). This at least brings some critical thinking to the table ~ just fascinating results. God bless you!


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 7 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Hmm, is this an uncovering of the unholy trinity? The devil, the antichrist, and the false prophet? An attempt of evil at mocking the trinity of God?

Interesting read and I will have to go back and read in better detail, but this was my first impression .. an unholy trinity.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Debradoo ~ yes! I have a hub called "The Unholy Trinity" you may want to read. The Dragon (Satan), the Antichrist (Lucifer) and the false prophet are the three beasts of Revelation. I also have a hub called, "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist" that shows his alignment with all prophecies regarding the coming Antichrist of Revelation. Thanks for stopping by! You're on the right track!! :-)


peacenhim 7 years ago

Fantastic Hub!! Great research and pertinent information. I'm a fan.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Blessings, peacenhim! Thank you.


Right Black profile image

Right Black 7 years ago from Huntington Beach, California

I find you hub very interesting even though I think your hermenuetics and logic might be flawed. You say that you interpret scripture literally but that isn't the way language works, not in history books or holy scripture. If this were the case we would have to say that Jesus was a big chicken and I am sure you wouldn't want to do that. In Matthew 23 Jesus says that he wanted to gather Jerusalem the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. Now we know that Jesus has no wings, was he speaking literally? In a sense yes, he did want to gather his chosen people and in a sense no, he has no wings. There are different types of language, narrative, poetic, allegorical and poetic we must look at each in context determine which it is and make an assessment of what is being said. The bible is not a mystery and it can be understood and if 20 centuries of christians have believed that Lucifer and Satan are the same I would think they probably are.


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Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Right Black and thanks for commenting. I would take Matthew 23 literally, too. For Jesus said He wanted to gather Jerusalem THE WAY a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. I don't' see how Jesus could be a literal chicken, when it's obvious his statement is regarding THE WAY a hen gathers her chicks. It's just important we don't "read into" things too much or spiritualize things too much, for God is not the Author of confusion. To follow something as fact based on the sheer numbers of religious leaders that stick to traditional beliefs is to choose the majority over the facts. We don't follow man, but God ~ even if we might stand alone.

If anyone can prove to me that Lucifer is the Devil biblically, I'd be surprised. No one has done so yet.

If Mormons understood that Lucifer did not cause the war in heaven, they would know their whole religion is false. Mormons consider Jesus and Lucifer to be brothers, and that those who took Lucifer's side in heaven are the cursed ones on earth...etc. etc. etc.

Anyhow, I posted the literal Bible verses to give us some insight and challenge the traditional teaching. It's safer to teach literally than to come up with some "spiritual" doctrine that cannot be absolutely verified by the Bible. This is not critical to salvation, but is certainly worth observation and thought.

God bless :-)


Right Black profile image

Right Black 6 years ago from Huntington Beach, California

Thanks for the loving way you address this topic. I think you made my point. Matthew 23 says "... How often I wanted to gather your children together, THE WAY a hen gathers her chicks under her wings..." If we take this literally then the only WAY Jesus could gather the children as "a hen gathers her chicks under her wings" is if he had wings. As far as Lucifer is concern I am not very interested in what the LDS say. I do think the identity of Lucifer as Satan can be proven by the use of the rhetorical literary figure of speech called metonymy. I have decided it would be to lengthy to go into here but I will write a hub on the topic and will advise you when it is posted. Again I appreciate the love of God and your fellow man that you express in your hub.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, Right Black. The Bible does use metonymy, such as Psalm 91:4 "He will cover you with his feathers. He will shelter you with His wings. His faithful promises are your armor and protection." We know that God is Spirit, so whether He has wings or not is something we will see when we get to heaven. Because Jesus was the image of the invisible God, I assume we will "see" Jesus when we enter Paradise and the New Jerusalem. God's angels are literally said to have wings, yet when they appeared as men, they did not. So, we're just looking at the applicable Bible passages used by churches to teach that Lucifer is the Devil, when indeed, there's no way (even with metonymy) to prove this. He certainly appears to be the spirit of Antichrist (the king of end-time Babylon), and if this is the case he cannot be the Devil. They are split up at the beginning of the millennial reign.

Because Satan is called the "god of this world", I would tend to venture that Satan is a god, just as God is God. God states as His first commandment that we shall have no other gods before Him (indicating there are other gods). God has angels and Satan obviously has angels (for the Word states the Dragon and his angels were cast out of heaven). Lucifer was obviously the king of Babylon ~ so, either he has ceased to exist as a man, or he's an angel that fell from heaven and embodies the end-time Antichrist, who is also the king of end-time Babylon. I tend to believe he is a fallen angel because he "fell from heaven" and his name means "morning star". Stars are equivocated with angels in the Bible. Isaiah was a prophet (foretelling future events), so I tend to see Isaiah 14 as prophecy, rather than past history. Just my take. I look forward to your hub!! God bless you, brother.


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ceciliabeltran 6 years ago from New York

Hi, I must say I'm rarely impressed with hubs that are so literal in its interpretation of the bible. But I am with this. You cleared many good points.

To add, S-T-N is actually not a serpent. In early Hebrew pictograph it means, Sh- Fire/Destruction T- End/Covenant N-Seed.

In Hebrew, It means "Adversary Within". Each of us have a snake in our heads--biologically. It's called a reptilian brain, in charge of survival and all our primitive and selfish traits. But in Hebrew it is called the Yetzer Hara.

The evil inclination.

Fallen Angels/Stars/Light is a recurring thing in mythology across cultures because it describes the nature of evil. It is usually good that was "cast down" or rejected.

Joseph Campbell's Hero with a thousand faces will be a good reading for you, to understand deeply the lessons of the stories that you are so drawn to.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ceciliabeltran, that is some interesting information. I'd rather not think that God created us with reptilian brains, but I do believe, based on Scripture that when Adam and Eve obeyed the serpent (Satan's possession of), they gave lordship to Satan, making him the "god of this world" ~ we then became the children of the devil (2 Cor 4:4; Mat 13:38; John 8:44).

As far as the "Adversary within", our flesh wars against the Spirit in us. AND...if we ponder that the Dragon, the beast that comes up out of the sea, is interpreted by the angel in Rev 17:15 as coming up out of the "sea" of "peoples, nations, tribes and tongues" ~ mankind (confirmed in Rev 11:9). It is this Dragon that comes up from the peoples that empowers the Antichrist (Rev 13:4), which I believe to be Lucifer, explained in my hub "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist". A greater picture of the three beasts of Revelation and their application to mankind is found in my hub "The Unholy Trinity".


Artin2010 profile image

Artin2010 6 years ago from Northwestern Florida, Gulfcoast

I think I missed this one for some reason. Awesome hub, you really know some stuff about God, evil and spirituality. I am honored to be a fan. God Bless!


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Praise God, Artin2010! My prayer is that Christians, when they speak or write about God's Word, would just be more accurate in their facts. When the Bible is referring to Lucifer, say Lucifer; when the Bible is referring to Satan, say Satan, etc. Some just start out with Lucifer being an archangel who started a war in heaven, etc., which is clearly not Biblically sound. Be blessed, brother! I'm glad you're a fan!!


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ceciliabeltran 6 years ago from New York

My dear, the reptillian brain is a scientific term, another term for it is Cerebellum. It does exist. You cannot sleep, be hungry and move without it. What it does is protect you (or itself) from harm and sustain your body. It is attached to your spine and it formed before the rest of your brain did when you were a fetus. The altruistic brain is sitting on it.

But even if you have a reptile in your head, that doesn't mean you're evil. It means you have the capacity to do evil,which I am sure you agree with.

I mean no criticism, only to have a live discussion that only raises the ratings of your hub! Be well!


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

cecilabeltran, that's some interesting information. I'm not a doctor, but I do know we are made in God's image. I have a beautiful hub on that subject called "Soul, Spirit, Mind and Heart" you might be blessed by! Have a super day!


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

>>I think pagan gods are really the fallen angels disguising themselves as such, but I honestly don't know for sure.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Sanctus, I assume you agree? I would also go so far as to say the spirits of the Nephilim are disguising themselves as gods, too. These are the spirits of the offspring of the fallen angels who sinned with women in the days of Noah (as I know we agree on this). Based on my understanding, I wrote the hub "God of gods" you might enjoy reading. Be blessed.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

*head desk*

There was more to my comment than this. I don't know if it got ate up, but what I said was this.

You are right about this. There, for example, appears to be evidence that Isis, Ishtar, Inanna (all pagan goddesses of sexual love, war, and sometimes fertility) along with Chemosh (a male god to whom children were sacrificed) may be one in the same as BaalPeor mentioned in the Bible.

Hosea 9:10 - 10I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Psalm 106:28 -They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.

and also read Numbers chapter 25.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Sanctus, yes ~ I don't know what happened to the rest of your comment. I will read up on this. Because the fallen angels were male (I assume because some of them sinned with the daughters of men), it must be the spirits of their offspring (which I assume were both male and female, who begat more offspring, etc.) that would give credence to female gods.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Well, it may also be important to know that the pantheons of the heathen nations were all these huge families of different gods and goddesses.

The offspring of the fallen angels and mortal women are called not only the Nephilim, but also the demigods.

If you're interested I have a hub called "Sons of Nephilim is NOT a Hoax" which explains this in tad more detail.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thanks, Sanctus ~ I'll take a look! Be blessed :-)


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

amen. i continue to enjoy your writing whether i believe it or not. in this case i must say you very nearly have me convinced. to some people if you were to tell them that lucifer wasn't the devil they would feel as if they have been lied to their entire lives. but the way you interprete things makes it seem as if its ok that lucifer isn't the devil and that what i believe is wrong. i feel as if this is possible and its ok if is. yet on another note im still not fully convinced and i wish i could speak to more of the spiritual people i know(such as my father, although i currently wouldn't be able to talk to him) in kansas. until i read more of what u have to say and talk to more people about the subject i wont be able to change my original idea. but let it be known i am already almost absolutely shaking of the old idea of lucifer being the devil as i read this. so although this subject is clearly open to debat by me, i commend you and congradulate you(for now...

lol.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I'm glad you came by, little brother! I know ~ we can only go by what we study in the Bible, and not just accept traditional teaching ~ especially if it can't be proven scripturally. As I commented on an anti-Mormonism hub, Mormons believe Lucifer caused the war in heaven and those who took his side were the "cursed" on earth (at first that's how they explained blacks). This certainly would debunk their false prophet(s). Anyhow, as for me, I have more confidence believing something I can prove scripturally. I posted a forum for anyone to prove biblically that Lucifer is the devil, and no one could. No one did. It's not contingent upon salvation, but I want to believe what's most verifiable according to scripture.

Be blessed!! Again, I'm glad you came by!


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

lol i cant wait to compile my argument together(If there is one) and debate you. i know its gonna be fun.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Well, afro's mistake, you've read my debates on my Carrie Bradshaw profile ~ please take it on! I asked others to prove to me that Lucifer was the Devil and none have done so to date. I'm glad you're hungry for the Word and have a heart to challenge what you have been taught ~ the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prohets (1 Cor 14:32), and we are to search the scriptures daily to see whether these things are so (Acts 17:11), amen? AMEN.


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

lol amen.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Well, I'm glad you read my hub "Lucifer: the spirit of Antichrist" and had more confirmation that he is not the devil. Too much scripture pointing to his identity, amen? Blessings to you.


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

yep.


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

lol im glad i finally check my email to see that i had gotten a message


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Me, too, little brother :-) Blessings to you!!


Joshua Kell profile image

Joshua Kell 6 years ago from Arizona

Great stuff!


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, Joshua! May we be as the Bereans, "searching the scriptures daily to see whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). Praise God!


Smireles profile image

Smireles 6 years ago from Texas

Well, Carrie, I have read your hub and all the comments. I believe you are very sincere in your beliefs and that some of your commentators are merely trying to pick the Bible to pieces and you could never give them a good enough answer.

The Bible is a book that must be taken on faith! From the beginning to the end. There is no deception here. From Abraham who left the home of his fathers on God's commend stepped out by faith, down to the early Christian believers. Read Hebrews 11.

One other thing. Satan, Lucifer, the devil, or whatever you call him is not a God.

Read Isaiah 44: 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

I enjoy reading your work and You are very zealous for your beliefs! Keep it up!


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi sister Smirles ~~ God certainly didn't make Satan a "god"; it's unbelievers who make Satan a "god" ~ likewise with images, mythology (Zeus, etc.), all of which are false "gods". We are to have no other "gods" before Him. In other words, Satan is a false god, also called the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4: "world" meaning unbelievers), for the world worships him and will worship the Antichrist and false prophet when they arrive on the scene. While believers are in the world, they are not of the world ~ Hope that better explains the issue. God is the one true God. All worldly "gods" are false. God bless you and thank you for your words of encouragement.


Smireles profile image

Smireles 6 years ago from Texas

I don't like to use the word god in reference to the devil or any other god. God warned his people against Idol worship, and you are right. That is what it is. Blessings!


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

AMEN, sister Smirles. Satan is not a god in our hearts; he is the Adversary and mimicker of the true God. I clarify 2 Cor 4:4, especially with Universalists who believe it is God who "blinds the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." They don't notice the small "g" in that verse and use this as an excuse for not getting saved until after death (unless God drags them, of course). You know me as Carrie Bradshaw, where I refute those doctrines of demons. Thank God I've taken a break from it in order to minister as Judah's Daughter to the saints. Thank you and God bless you!!


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skye2day 6 years ago from Rocky Mountains

Judah's Daughter Wowzer, Fantastic writing, research and truth sister. I know Christ smiles on you. You have put so much work into showing Christ and the truth of the living word. You are a gift to hub pages and all that read you. My prayer is many more will land on your writings that are heartfelt, inspiring and Holy Spirit Breathed. Awesome work JD. I love you and pray you will be richly Blessed. I am so grateful our paths crossed. Did you read my 'Scented Oil"

If you get a chance. chapter one and two. Hugs sister.

Keep on sister, we have much work to do. Jesus is going to return. Yes and Yes + + +


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Sister skye2day! I truly am comforted to think Christ smiles on me, for it is my heart's desire, as the deer pants for the water, to love Him and please Him. I just read your Scented Oil two-parts and waiting for part three! I can't tell you what a powerful testimony it is, and you are bringing so much glory to the Lord by sharing it ~ beautiful, beautiful!! We are one, united in Him, sister Skye. Always in His grace and love, JD


exjwlaurie 6 years ago

Wow! Sister JD! You have given me much to ponder, study and pray about!

I will enjoy reading your related hubs in this matter!

There is so much truth to "absorb" from God's Holy Word--I appreciate you pointing me in this direction, and I will do further study on this, as I feel in my heart the Truth in your research!

Do not be distracted by naysayers my Sister, just continue to walk in truth, and preach what the Lord places in your heart, for it is a Divine compass to powerfully guide you! The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual magnetic field that keeps your compass on track.

Thank you for the edification today! =)


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I rejoice in my heart and spirit with you, sister Laurie! I've always been taught that Lucifer was the Devil, who started out as the highest archangel in heaven...I still read this over and over in a multitude of writings today. It's simply not something people really ever study for themselves, obviously. I have found some who have discovered this revelation ~ nonetheless, I rely on what is written, not just what is spoken. I will believe God's Word, not just a verse or two or three taken out of context to develop an entire doctrine of error.

I know you share this passion in Christ, and I believe He is faithful to reward those who dilligently seek Him! (Heb 11:6 ~ the FAITH chapter!) We shall walk by FAITH!! (2 Cor 5:7) Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God! (Heb 11:6 again) ~ Seek and ye shall find! (Mat 7:7) Oh, I could go on!! Let's keep on 'panning for God'!!


asimple10 6 years ago

Satan is no king of babylon nor tyre

Satan was born a lier because he movvited the most atrocious crime, trying to over through God.

Those were the desiers of his heart.

God gives all of his intelligent creatures free will hence, 1/3 of teh angels rebelled against him

Dragon is not used by its denotation in the Bible, but by its connotation (when referring to Lucifer turned Satan)

Are you saying that there was no Satan before the King of Babylon of Tyre, before Eve and Adam?

If Satan is or was an Earthly Kin, a man, then how could he have tempted teh first 2 humans?

To say the lier in the garden wasn't Satan is saying that there is this other damndable evil out there before an "Earthly born Devil"


asimple10 6 years ago

I don't mean to sound angry it's just I get so passionate about the word of God, of which I can see you do as well. I rally don't mean to offend anyone with hot words, it's just, I was taught the read the word for yourself so you may recognize and judge for yourself. I can see that you have studied deep into this and I respect you greatly for that. I just have to remind myself to keep a cool yet sharp mind and show my faith and wisdom in a Christ Like manner.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi asimple10! I would email you, but it looks like there's no link associated with your handle :-) Therefore, I would like to answer you here...

You're right. Satan is no king of Babylon or king of Tyre.

You're right. Satan was a murderer from the beginning and there is no truth in him and he is the father of lies.

A third of the angels were cast out of heaven with Satan (aka the Dragon, the serpent of old and the devil).

The Dragon is used in conjuction with the other names of Satan, which are the serpent of old and the devil.

Satan existed since he was created, along with the angels. He tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. The fallen angels also had their part in the corruption of the seed of man prior to the flood of Noah's day, and there are multitudes of fallen angels still at work on the earth today ~ just as Satan.

Satan was not a man. Angels take on human form. Spirits influence, even embody (possess) humans, as shown in the Bible. The king of Babylon and the king of Tyre were both fallen cherubs, as stated in the Bible.

As I stated, Satan did deceive Eve in the Garden of Eden. Were there cherubim in the Garden? Absolutely. When Satan was cast out of heaven, a third of the angels were cast out with him.

Your words are not offensive in any way. I was also taught all my life that Lucifer was the one who rebelled against God in heaven ~ if you read the scriptures in the hub again, you will see it was the Dragon (aka the serpent of old, the devil and Satan) that warred in heaven against Michael the Archangel and his angels. Lucifer is not mentioned in that specific account, but because he is obviously a fallen angel, he fell. Just like the king of Tyre (both cherubs).

In fact, I believe Lucifer, because of what is stated about him in Isaiah 14 and how it perfectly aligns with the prophesies of the coming Antichrist, is indeed THE Antichrist. The Antichrist and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire a thousand years before Satan is. I invite you to read that study as well...called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist".

God bless you. I pray you are indeed passionate about the Word of God, and will choose to believe what is written rather than what is traditional teaching of men. We are called to do this. Thank you for leaving your thoughts and I appreciate your respectfulness.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Hello JD,

Something you might find interesting. In the book of Revelation it mentions four spiritual beasts surrounding the throne of God.

Revelation 4:6-7

6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Since Revelation is full of symbology we can safely assume that John did not see a literal lion with eyes all over, or a calf, or a man, or an eagle with eyes all over them.

In the Bible the Hebrew and Greek words for the different animals often always have another meaning.

Lion/Leon - A lion, or a brave and mighty warrior

Calf/moschos - A calf, or an offspring of an animal or man. Can also mean 'fresh and tender'

Man/anthropos - a human. Quite possibly this is the spiritual man.

Eagle/aetos - an eagle, said to also be the standard of the Roman Military. It's possible that the spiritual eagle is another warrior just like the lion is.

(sidenote: In the book of Enoch there is mention of 4 angels surrounding the throne of God. They seem to be doing the same thing as the 4 beasts of Revelation. I remember only two of them, but it would appear that Michael was/is the lion, while Gabriel was/is the man (spiritual))

Alright, now onto the serpent. You said that Satan possessed the serpent. This I disagree with because serpent in Hebrew is 'nachash' which means 'one who practices divination, one who enchants, one who observes signs and omens'

There's no denying that what Satan did to Eve was to enchant her, and beguile her. So, in other words, Satan didn't possess the serpent; Satan was/is the spiritual serpent.

And isn't it also amazing how satan is considered to be a great enchanter/magician/sorcerer, and we are commanded not to practice these things?


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Sanctus, My Strongs Concordance doesn't include the definition you gave for nachash, however I'm certain Satan operated with those characteristics. Consider how snake charmers can mezmerize a snake.

There is certainly a great deal of spiritual meaning to the Dragon, the devil and Satan. However, when we study the actual verses using the word "serpent" in Gen 3, it means a literal snake (according to my Concordance), which was a created beast of the field. This is why I teach that the serpent was possessed by Satan ~ serpents today certainly don't talk.

I looked up 'serpent with legs' and found an article of a fossil found from that time period ~ a snake with legs: http://40georgia.multiply.com/journal/item/770 They also make a good point, in that a snake losing its legs refutes evolution. God cursed the serpent to his belly ~ and snakes certainly don't have legs. We might observe that God indeed cursed his creation (humans and the snake) for the spiritual warfare that just took place.

I try to teach as carefully as possible, as I am held accountable by God, according to His Word (James 3:1). God bless, Sanctus.


God's Child 6 years ago

Thank you for an extremely informative article. First and foremost I was raised a Hindu have not, in any way, forsaken this. I do not, however, believe that my religion is the only true religion. In fact, while growing up I have come to appreciate the good in all religions. I love reading articles and scriptures of the various religions inorder to better understand them. I believe that to criticise another's religion and assume their beliefs are great travesties. I throughly enjoyed the research and honesty you convey in your article and believe that more believers should be like you.

There is a quote that I would love to share with you as I think that you greatly exemplify.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them." - Galileo Galilei


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello, God's Child ~ it sounds like you are searching for truth. May I take this opportunity to share with you that there is only One God, the God who created you. His first Commandment is that we are to have NO other god besides Him. He is jealous for us. No other god created all things, even you; no other god came to earth in the flesh to shed his blood for your sins, to make you holy in YHVH's sight, worthy of eternal life. No other god was raised from dead in the body he died in. Do you believe in the God of the Bible? Or, do you believe in karma, for instance? If so, I invite you read my hub "Karma and Christianity".

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/KARMA-and-...

Religion, per se, is not of God. It's of works (as is the philosphy of karma). We are to know our Creator, not worship His creation, including men God created. This is idolatry and a grave sin. There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved, and God our Savior's name is Jesus Christ, our LORD.

If you have not believed that Jesus was and is God and is to come, I invite you to read my hub "ROCK of OFFENSE":

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/ROCK-of-OF...

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Me". There is no other way. There are not many gods that lead us to the true God. All other gods are false. While we think this attitude of accepting all 'religions' or 'gods' will bring peace, Jesus came to bring a sword (the Bible, the Word of God). He alone is the TRUTH. I tell you the truth. His kingdom is not of this world. His children are in this world, but not of it. We are not to love (agape) the world as we love (agape) God.

When you believe (and I say this by faith) and ask the Spirit of your Creator God to come inside you (for He's made you clean by the blood of Jesus Christ), you will feel it, you will know it, you will hear Him, you will walk in Him ~ you will be changed. You will be healed (salvation). You will be a child of God, not a Fatherless one. You must choose this day whom you will serve. Choose Jesus Christ! He is the God that will raise you! He will give you life or death, for He is LORD of the living and the dead. He is God of gods, Lord of lords and King of kings!

Receive, in Jesus' Name. Thank you for reading and commenting. I pray the seed of truth has been planted and God will grow it within you ~ this all depends on the soil of your heart. All it takes is the faith of a mustard seed.

Eph 2:8-9 "By His grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." AMEN.


Jennifer 6 years ago

hi, this is a good thing that you posted up. =] and well, i really think that the devil is actually or was actually Lucifer. Satan is still the most powerful and probably still the most beautiful angel in the universe. Listen to the warning that Jude (the brother of Jesus) gives:

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand.... Jude 1:8-10

Satan - who is also called the Father of lies - lies about who he really is. He puts on a "godly angel" disguise, then uses it to attack us. In other words, if you met Satan today, you might be fooled that he was an angel sent straight from the throne of God.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Jennifer, the scriptures are here. The Dragon was never said to have been an angel at all. The Bible clearly states he was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING. While Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, all angels of God are angels of light. His servants do the same. 2 Cor 11:14-15 state, "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

The dark angels disguise themselves as angels of light, also. Look at the two that appeared to Joseph Smith and started a false religion, just as an example. The Apostle Paul told us this would happen when he said in Gal 1:8, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" Of course, this would not actually be an 'angel from heaven', but one who disguises himself as such. We know whether they are true or false by the gospel they preach.

Who even knows if the Dragon is a single entity? In Revelation, he is described as the beast that comes up out of the sea (of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues). Nations with kings make up the Dragon's heads and crowns. Satan is a force that influences multitudes. Lucifer (helel) is a fallen angel, one of the third of the heavenly host that fell with the Dragon to the earth. I believe the scripture aligns him with the end-time king of Babylon, who is Abaddon/Apollyon. The name "Lucifer", as a proper name, was NEVER in the Bible to begin with. The Bible tells us his name, and it's not "Lucifer". Isaiah 14:12 is the ONLY passage where his name is inserted, and this passage is clearly speaking of the king of Babylon. Isaiah was a prophet.

If "Lucifer" is the Antichrist, which I am convinced he is, he is not Satan, as the Antichrist and his false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire a thousand years before Satan is.


blahblah 6 years ago

Firstly, interesting article which I enjoyed reading, but I do have a question. In Isaiah 14:11-17, it says Lucifer was thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit, yet it also says he was cut down to the earth just like the dragon(Satan). How do you explain this??


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Only God knows the order of events, blahblah. The Bible only gives us limited information, so my answer can only be rational, not necessarily of full knowledge, which we will not obtain until we see Jesus face to face (1 Cor 13:12).

Fallen angels were first cast down to the earth (Rev 12:8). In the time of Isaiah's writing, this "star of the morning, son of the dawn" was the king of Babylon (Isa 14:4). No one knows if the king of the abyss (Sheol/Hades), whose name is Abaddon/Apollyon (the angel of destruction - Rev 9:11) is locked in there or presently has free reign to go in and out. Sheol has a cover (Rev 9:2) and is also said to be locked, for the angels of heaven have the key to open it (Rev 9:1 and 20:1). Obviously, God has all authority over this realm and its inhabitants.

At the appointed time, this angel will come up out of the abyss to be the king of end-time Babylon, the Antichrist prophesied in Rev 17:8.

The only angels the Bible says are 'incarcerated' and 'in chains' in the 'deepest abyss of Sheol/Hades' (the definition of Tartaroo/Tartaros), are those who fathered giants with human women in the days of Noah (2 Pet 2:4-5). I can't imagine, why those 'angels who sinned in the days of Noah' would be incarcerated in chains at the deepest level, except that it is possible to come in and go out for Abaddon/Apollyon and his minions.

Right now, the Bible says that the Antichrist is being restrained from doing as he pleases with the world, until that which restrains him is taken out of the way (2 Thes 2:6).


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

Hey, I think the devil is leviathan, and leviathan is infact an angel. God created the heavens and the stars. The stars as in angels. I don't think the devil was created after the angels. Also Jesus said he saw the devil fall from the sky like lightning. It's pretty obvious that satan is an angel, and he looks like a serpant angel.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I realize you're trying very hard to figure out exactly how 'heylel' (aka Lucifer) could be Satan. It is contrary to scripture, especially since the name 'Lucifer' was added to the scriptures only 400 years ago. It doesn't belong in the Bible at all, and wasn't in the Bible since it's writing.

ChristianSoldier...I certainly never said the Devil was created after the angels.

If you can prove scripturally that Leviathan is an angel, please do. Show me a scripture that states a seraph has multiple heads, as the Dragon does. The KJV uses the word 'face' (singular) and 'covered with eyes', in regard to seraphim (Is 6:2, 6), but not multiple heads. Satan is called the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, and the Devil.

Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called an angel. Angels are called stars and, of course, angels. That's how we know Isaiah 14 is speaking of a fallen angel (star), and Ezekiel 28 (a fallen cherub), who was indeed in the Garden of Eden. These were not the same angel, as we've already discussed; nor, were either of these angels Satan himself.

The Dragon (Satan) was cast out of heaven; his 'tail' swept away a third of the 'stars' ~ do angels have tails? Had to be a pretty big 'tail' to sweep away a third of the stars (angels). Satan was cast out of heaven with a third of the angels...slice it either way (Rev 12:4 and 9).

Jesus did say He "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18). Satan did fall, and so did a third of the angels. This does not, however, prove that Satan is an angel.


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

Angels can have tails. Remember that angels are not humans. If the devil is not an angel, then he must be a leviathan then. But revelation says that the dragon comes from the sky, but leviathan comes from the sea! Also who is the false prophet? What is his identity? an angel? And what happened to the King of Tyre? he just got owned by Abbadon and goes back to hell?


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ChristianSoldier,

Could Satan be a seraph? Possibly, as that is the only serpent-like angel. However, seraphim are not recorded as having been in the Garden of Eden ~ yet, that doesn't mean it's not a possiblity that the snake, though the Bible interprets it literally, could have been a seraph. The snake was cursed to his belly to eat dust all its life ~ and that would again point to a literal snake. While the Dragon influences multitudes of people/kingdoms, and appears to be so great a beast, Rev 20:1-2 states that just one angel of God will bind Satan and lock him in the bottomless pit for a thousand years.

Isaiah 14 does not describe a saraph, but rather aligns with a cherub. Therefore, we cannot attrubute heylel (aka Lucifer) to the same being as Satan. Satan is never described as a seraph with a single head, multiple eyes and six wings either. It would only have to a possibility, with no absolute answer.

Revelation says the Dragon and his angels waged war with Michael (who is the Archangel) and his angels. The Dragon and his angels were cast out of heaven, yes (Rev 12). However, the Dragon is now the beast that comes up out of the sea of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues (Rev 13 and 17).

If you read my hub, "Islam and Revelation" you will see that the Dragon comes up out of the sea, which represents the nations; the Antichrist comes up out of the abyss (Sheol mentioned in Is 14) and persecutes the saints; and the false prophet (a religious leader that has two horns like a lamb, and speaks as a Dragon, comes up out of the earth). It is he who causes all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life to take the mark of the Antichrist.

The king of Tyre is a fallen angel (cherub). He wasn't one who sinned with human women in the days of Noah or he wouldn't be active on the earth after the flood. Those angels are said to be incarcerated in Tartaroo (the deepest abyss of Sheol/Hades - 2 Pet 2:4). The Bible doesn't tell us what happened to him, or whether his angel is still active on the earth this day.


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

So the devil is after all a huge spiritual dragon then!? This is our adversary? A huge dragon? And can you touch more about the false prophet. If Satan is a dragon, the anti-Christ is a fallen Cherub, what is the false prophet? Perhaps he is another fallen angel? Perhaps the false prophet is behemoth?

Book of Enouch says that Leviathan(the devil) is a female, and behemoth, is a male, can u touch on that as well.

I have so many questions to ask, and a guy like u can enlighten me with the knowledge!!! Intresting to talk with u. Thanks for the replies and keep doing so....


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I really can't answer you on the gender of Satan. The Bible uses a masculine pronoun for 'him'. I believe there was a literal leviathan and a literal behemoth, which may have been dinosaur-like creatures in the time of Job (Ch 40 and 41).

The false prophet comes up from the earth. This would indicate he neither comes from above or beneath the earth. Islam is expecting their 12th Imam, the Mahdi (their "Guided One"), who will then be accompanied by Isa (their Jesus), who will pray behind him. This reign of the Mahdi is to last for seven years. Truly, they also believe their Mahdi will come from the depths of the earth (a well). Again, I truly recommend my hub "Islam and Revelation" to give you much more on this.

God bless you!! You're a joy to communicate with as well :-)


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

Ummm I dont think that the behemoth and the leviathan are dinosaurs. isiah prophesized that Jesus would chase leviathan with a sword! And I don't think dinosaurs can breathe fire and have smoke coming out of their nostrils. Anyways Enoch should not be taken into account because it is not the word of God. From what I've discussed with you, it seems that the devil is leviathan. He is a monstrous dragon afterall. The Anti-Christ is a fallen Cherub, and the False-prophet is a man. Who or what is behemoth anyways?


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Actually, I have read some of the book of Enoch regarding the Watchers (fallen angels) and their relations with the daughters of men, producing giants (covered in my hubs "The Origin of the Nephilim" and "GIANTS After the Flood"). I haven't read all of the several volumes published, however. These are things we really can't know for sure...as to whether there were fire-breathing dragons, etc. lol ~ a lot of stories have developed over the years about such things (i.e. sleeping beauty and Shrek). Whatever aligns with the Bible from the book of Enoch, I take into account as possibility. If the Bible doesn't confirm what is written in the book of Enoch, I take it as I would any other extra-biblical information. I don't have a clue as to what the behemoth is, but sister Royal Diadem on HubPages has written about it, as a type of elephant.


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

After reading an article about the leviathan, I found that the Leviathan might be aligned with the T-Rex. But God said that he would slay the leviathan.... im confused.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Some things we simply don't need to KNOW...one day we will know even as we are known (1 Cor 13:12). Rest in His love, ChristianSoldier! Again, just read what's in the Word and if we aren't given an answer, we most likely aren't supposed to know it just yet. God is with you and may His blessings be upon you as you go...JD


ChristianSoldier 6 years ago

sighhhhh... but i dont get it. Jesus is going to slay the leviathan, yet leviathan is a T-rex, what does that mean? There are many holes to this theory, so perhaps Lucifer is the Devil after all.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

CS ~ the Bible is full of allegories. The definition of allegory is "The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form." I hope this is helpful. God bless you :-)


DantesInferno 6 years ago

SO basically Lucifer isn't the devil correct? wait so is the story of lucifer bieng the most beautiful angel then because of his pride and ego rebelled against God and his angels is that story true if so where does the dragon(satan) come from what are his origins was he born evil if so why did God create him if he was evil (not trying to sound blasphemous by questioning God but im just confused) Was the dragon an angel aswell and maybe Lucifer became the devil after his fall from grace and because God is no longer with him he became disfigured lost his beauty and became a dragon out of his pride and rage and became the king of Babylon to attack Gods people (just a theory sorry if this is a long run on question God Bless)


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello there, DantesInferno ~ I suggest you read all the comments and replies that may help answer many of your questions; however, I will give you the bullet-point answers, based on what I believe to be the truth:

1. Lucifer (heylel) is not Satan (the Devil); he is the Antichrist, the coming king of end-time Babylon, a fallen cherub. May I recommend my hub to you called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist!": http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/LUCIFER-Th...

2. The story of Lucifer being a beautiful angel that rebelled against God in heaven, was cast out with a third of the angels, then became the devil (aka Satan) does not appear to be based on the Bible. He certainly was a cherub that fell from heaven, according to Isaiah 14:12.

3. The Dragon (aka Satan) was obviously created by God and for God's purpose. I have a hub called "Satan's Purpose" you may be interested in reading. God would not allow him to roam the earth, if there was not a divine purpose for it. Consider Job. This does not make God the Author of sin, for it is man who gives in to rebelling against God (James 1:14); Satan is just the tempter of man to do evil and is the prosecuting attorney of all mankind before God. He is also the one who exercises God's wrath/anger (2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chron 21:1). Here is the link: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Satans-PUR...

4. Jesus said that Satan "was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44), so how can he be a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, if he LATER, after his fall, became a murderer? In fact, Satan is never called an angel anywhere in the Bible.

I hope this information is helpful. I realize this is just totally different than the traditional, man-made teaching that's been around for the last 400 years...and not before that!! That, in itself, is something to pay attention to! God bless you abundantly. Thank you so much for reading and for your good questions.


DantesInferno 6 years ago

Thanks alot Now I know though I prefer the other story that we've all been told because I like the plot better (yea I know its false but I just like it better sounds more epic its just my opinion) and quick question I know angels have rankings sorta like the military archangels cherubs etc dom demons have the same. I was told demons and devils are not the same devils are fallen angels the angels that fell from heaven while demons are just the spawns and children of devils like imps and fiends ( i know its off topic and kinda weird but angels and demons heaven and hell is just so fascinating to me ) Again thanks for this know I know the truth


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Dantesinferno! Well, we can only determine what angels are by the Hebrew/Greek definitions, which does not include 'demons or devils'.

In the Old Testament, the word angel is the Hebrew word malak (mal-awk'); from an unused root mean. to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; spec. of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):-ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

In the New Testament, the word angel is the Greek word aggelos (ang'-el-os); to bring tidings; a messenger; esp. an "angel", by impl. a pastor:-angel, messenger.

I believe fallen angels spread fallen 'messages', in whatever form they take. They spread a false gospel. That is their primary function. They not only masquerade as pastors, priests and teachers, but influence/even embody kings of the earth. The Antichrist will be heylel (aka Lucifer) embodied in flesh (Isa 14:16-17).

You might find it fascintating to know what the Book of Enoch reveals regarding demons: Enoch 15:8 “And now, the giants, who are proclaimed from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers [fallen angels] is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.” Once the flesh of the giants were destroyed in the flood, their spirits were sentenced to roam the earth. From this we get the word "Rapha" (meaning dead, shades, ghosts, departed spirits, spirits of the dead), from which comes the name of the giants after the flood, called "Rephaim". The Bible tells us a lot about them! If this fascinates you, here's a link to another of my hubs:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/GIANTS-on-...

To read about the Nephilim (pre-flood), who were the fathers of the Rephaim (post-flood), I have a hub about them as well: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Origin... (I recommend reading this one first, then the other).

To see what the Bible says about how the spiritual realm interacts/affects the physical realm, you might want to read yet another of my hubs: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Is-Everyon...

I use the word "fascinating" because I was truly fascinated by what I learned, and really enjoyed writing about it to share it with readers like you! I pray God continue to bless you!


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Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

Hi JD. You stated "The story of Lucifer being a beautiful angel that rebelled against God in heaven, was cast out with a third of the angels, then became the devil (aka Satan) does not appear to be based on the Bible.". Good this is a false doctrine that still pervades the church. However, fallen angels doctrine doesn't show up until the apocryphal Book of Enoch.

You also state "Satan is never called an angel anywhere in the Bible" Numbers 22:22, the Angel of the Lord is sent as a satan to Balaam. Satan is simply Hebrew for adversary and applies both to angels and men such as David for example.


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Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

The Book of Enoch is not considered of sufficient merit to even appear in the Catholic apocrypha, and the only branch of the church that deems it of any value is the Ethiopian Orthodox. Even there, they believe it was written in the Ethiopian Ge'ez language, because thatis the only full copy remaining.

Whatever flavour church you choose to belong to, apocryphal works are to be considered of secondary purpose and NO doctrines are to be established from them, which is what you appear to be doing above. The Book of Enoch is not inspired by God; it is a human invention.


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Disappearinghead, Numbers 22:22 states, "But God was angry because he [Balaam] was going [to curse Israel], and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him."

Satan is never called the angel of the LORD. God opposes the proud (James 4:6), but does that make Him the Adversary, Satan? Absolutely not.

If you read all of Numbers 22 and 23 you will see that God initially told Balaam NOT to go with all the men that wanted to curse Israel. When the men pressured him, he went, but with resistance from the LORD. The LORD then gave him permission to go, but only to say what the LORD told him. Chapter 23 shows you that Balaam BLESSED Israel instead.

Satan works though men and nations to destroy God's people, first and foremost. His angels disguise themselves as servants of light. If you think Satan and his angels are merely human, you cannot explain Eph 6:12, nor can you explain why Balaam didn't see the angel of the LORD opposing him, but the donkey sensed him and reacted (Num 22:31).


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Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Disappearinghead, Don't even get me started on Catholicism. They are responsible for the corruption of the Textus Receptus (Latin), inserting the name of Lucifer (Is 14:12) and birthing the doctrine of the 'trinity' (Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7) - insertions! Prior to 400 years ago, no one believed in either. They also removed the second commandment of the 10 about graven images and worship of idols (that they teach in catechism), as they practice this daily. I could go on and on. You're welcome to read my hub "ROCK OF OFFENSE" for more on this truth.

If what's in the Book of Enoch supports what is in the Bible, I respect it. If it has things in it that are not revealed in our Bible, I only ponder it. It was in the scriptures 300 years before Christ, at the time of Christ and 200 years after Christ. The book of Jasher was also removed, yet it is named in our Bible: Joshua 10:15 "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day." AND 2 Samuel 1:18 "and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar."


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Trish_M 5 years ago from The English Midlands

Hi Judah's Daughter :)

I should have read this before, but I didn't want it to influence my hub.

It is really interesting. I like all of the synthesis. It is very thought-provoking!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Trish! I'm glad you came by to read. Now you can see why I say your studies are revealing much truth. The great thing about having an inquiring mind and studying like you do, I believe you will find that absolute truth one day and with that, touch many lives that are now walking in your shoes. :-)


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Trish_M 5 years ago from The English Midlands

Certainly it is a fascinating topic.


thad  5 years ago

I've heard some weird stuff but come on! What about scripture! You've read to many hal lindsey books!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Oh, come on, thad ~ I've never read a Hal Lindsey book ~ but, maybe I should? Do you have any scripture to refute what's revealed here? Can you prove heylel IS Satan, the devil? Do share!


Constantine 5 years ago

I'm not very religious but I was always curious of the full story of the War in Heaven and the fall of Satan as well as curious as to the different names and if they where an entity being one and the same, just having a name change every now and again mixed in with various other religious views on similar entities (as they say most of the time in movies). But thank you for making the distinction between who's who and especially all the verse research from the bible. It was certainly very informative and interesting.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Constantine, it's good you're not very 'religious', in the sense of the word and what it means. It's also good that you research whatever you 'hear' as 'fact', when indeed it may not align with the source claimed to reveal such a doctrine. I was always taught that heylel (Lucifer) was indeed the devil (Satan) himself and set out to prove he was by using the Bible alone. Well, I couldn't come to that conclusion after my study, and no one has been able to biblically refute these results since. I even posted a forum to see if anyone could and it fizzled pretty fast. I'm glad you found this informative and interesting. Thank you so much.


Confused 5 years ago

HI. Very interesting read and very informative. My question is did God create The Dragon (Satan) and 'Lucifer' (the Antichrist). And if he did then why? Surely it would be silly for him to make these creatures if he knew they would cause so many problems for him and for mankind.

Thank you very much for your article :)


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Confused ~ first of all, may I minister to your name: Let's look at Psalm 98:9, which states, “He will judge the world”. The word ‘judge’ is ‘shaphat’ (avenge). The word ‘world’ is ‘tevel’ (confusion). He cares about your confusion, and desires to give you the answers you seek.

I have a hub called "Satan's Purpose" I think will shed some light on your question: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Satans-PUR...

I believe there are two MAIN reasons God created the Adversary and his troops and allows them to exist on the earth:

1) To give mankind a CHOICE, for Love does not insist on its own way (1 Cor 13:5) and God is Love.

2) To TEST and TRY us, either building our faith in the Lord or destroying it, depending on our choices.

A couple of passages come to mind:

Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

1 Pet 1:7 "That the TRIAL of your FAITH [allowed by God], being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it [the gold, representing faith] be tried with fire [by the Adversary], might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ."

I pray this ministers to your heart. God bless you.


Formerly Confused 5 years ago

Thanks very much for that response. I would just like to say that i was not trying to question God or anything, i was just curious. Excellent answer and after reading your "Satan's purpose" Hub i understand a lot more.Please keep writing these types of Hubs because as humans we all have questions and it is great when someone like you can provide such detailed answers. Thanks again :)


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

It's okay to ask God questions, which is different than questioning God (a bit of a twist) :-) I'm so glad you found some answers to your question, for God's Word has answers ~ it's so fascinating! I also have a hub that has to do with trials and testing called "Trials and Temptations" you might like to read, too! http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Trials-Tem...

As far as the forces of good and evil in the spirit and physical realms, you might enjoy my hub called "The Battle For Your Soul" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Battle...

I am always encouraged when what I write, based on bible study, is able to help someone. Currently, I have published over 100 hubs, and I would love for you to read all that interest you! Just click on my name, Judah's Daughter, right here on the comment box and you'll get to my home page :-) God bless you! I'm glad you are now 'Formerly Confused' :-)


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Jason R. Manning 5 years ago from Sacramento, California

What a terrific piece of teaching you formed here. This is fashioned to be used over and over again. I am thankful you wrote this. God Bless.


Not sure 5 years ago

Hi.

I am not sure where the Dragon came from? Was the Dragon an Angel? Where did he come from also? I always thought that one of God's angels rebelled against him with the other angels and not some dragon.....

Please help me understand.

Very interesting article btw :)

Thanks.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother Jason!! Forgive me for not responding sooner. I've just moved and was without internet for a week!! Thank you so much for your kind comment. I found this study incredibly enlightening, and I'm glad you did, too!! God bless you abundantly as you press on in the truth!!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Not sure ~ the Bible identifies Satan as the Dragon, the beast with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. The heads represent seven kingdoms; the ten horns are the leaders of those kingdoms; the crowns are seven 'kings' of those kingdoms.

The Antichrist is prophesied in Dan 7:24 to subdue three of the ten leaders (three horns) and is an eighth king (little horn) that is of the remaining seven. The Bible never calls the Dragon an angel.

To read about the war in heaven, go to Revelation 12:7-9. Yes, a third of the angels were thrown down with him, but that does not make the Dragon an angel. All things were created by God, including the Dragon. I hope this helps. God bless you!!


Not Sure 5 years ago

Thanks for the reply.

If the Dragon was not an angel then how did he/it influence those other angels in heaven and get them to rebel against God?

Rev 12:8: "But he(the dragon) was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down(from heaven to earth)."

Doesn't this show that the "dragon" had to have been an angel at first otherwise how else could he have been in heaven with God and the other angels? If he was not an angel in heaven then that means he must have some how gotten into heaven to be able to wage war against Michael and the "good" angels.....

I still don't understand why God would create the dragon or create an angel who would become the dragon?


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Not Sure, To attempt to answer your first question, I can only assume the Dragon influenced the angels in heaven the same way he influenced Adam and Eve. I have a hub called "Satan's PURPOSE", which expounds on the biblical study of what the word 'Satan' means, what his behavior is and how he is used of God for the purpose of God (believe it or not). All things that were created were 'good'. I think of Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

The study of "the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" (all the same entity) does not give any definition or scriptural support that he was ever an angel. His description, as I gave above (from Rev 12:7-9) does not match any of the descriptions of the various angels in heaven.

I think the hub I mentioned will answer your question more fully. I hope to see you there. God bless you.


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jacharless 5 years ago from Between New York and London

Well said, JD!

Satan, dragon/serpent, lucifer are not the same.

Also, for those interested, note in the garden how Creator says to the serpent: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between ---your offspring--- and hers.

Also, remember Moses has a Serpent on the top of his staff. Same staff that struck the rock. It is also said that the Law was the serpent, as it poisoned the minds of man to live by sin. for with the law comes the ---knowledge--- of sin.

lucim ferre (aka lucifer) is determined as a message or one who delivers the message.

satan is one who opposes or veers one off course, divert, adverse to, blocks the path of.

none of these are creatures by their metaphors, save one thing -they all suggest highly that they are of human seed, with very interesting characters -like music or strong speaking voices, etc.

Voted up!

James


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi jacharless!! Wow ~ some very interesting insight! You might enjoy my hub called "Is Everyone Possessed?", in that it shows how the spirit realm affects the physical. 'Angels' are also defined as human beings (pastors, teachers, priests and kings) and note how the letters in Revelation were written to the 'angel' of the church of etc....Heavenly angels do not receive letters.

Truly, humans are messengers and those who are called 'children (seed) of the devil' (John 8:44; 1 John 3:10) do the will of their father, by his 'spirit(s)'; whereas children of God do the will of their Father, by His Spirit.

Thank you so much for your contribution and voting up!! God bless you!!


The Joker 5 years ago

This is like listening to children argue...........

Major Demons and their sins:-

Lucifer.......pride!

Satan.........anger!

Leviathan.....envy!

Asmodeus......lust!

Mammon........covetousness!

Beelzebub.....gluttony!

Belphegor.....sloth!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello, The Joker ~ somehow, I don't see discussion as arguing ~ and for the sake of discussion, Satan and Leviathan are connected, possibly the same in scripture, by the definition/name of 'Dragon'. Satan, the Dragon, is never called a demon, but is also called Beelzebub.

Lucifer (aka heylel) is a fallen angel (a cherub, to be precise). The scripture does not say that fallen angels became demons either. What is written of demons (in books such as Enoch) is that they are the disembodied spirits of the children of the Watchers (fallen angels) and human women ~ aka the Nephilim. This information can be found in my hub, "Giants After the Flood". Post-flood giants were known as the Rephaim (from Rapha - dead, shades, ghosts, departed spirits, spirits of the dead).

Now I learned a bit more about Asmodaeus and Belphegor ~ I never knew about those names before. Thanks for the info!


The Joker 5 years ago

These are the 7 heads of the "Dragon" .........

Can You name the coming 8th?


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hmmm, interesting take...the name of the eighth king, as far as my studies go to date is Abaddon/Apollyon...destruction.


The Joker 5 years ago

You are well read and love your subjects, i find books to be contradictory and tend to read between the lines.

Being christian [not allways as good as i could] i must be carefull what i say about the Bible but i'm of the oppinion every book ever wrote on these subjects takes information from the Bible and interpretations of it differ through the ages.

I will visit you on another subject JD


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi, The Joker ~ I appreciate your kind words. I agree, that there are many books out there on people's interpretations of the Bible. While I don't see the seven-headed beast equaling the 'seven deadly sins' (or the Dragon/demons associated with them), this is obviously such a case of interpretation. I tend to take the Bible literally, and if the Lord gives me spiritual insight to those literal passages, that insight will then be confirmed over and over again throughout the written Word. That's my experience.

For this reason, I study the Bible first ~ then, if I should read any extra-biblical material or listen to sermon after sermon out there, I can better discern what is truth and what is man's interpretation, which certainly could be in error. While I ponder their take on things, I can't hold it as absolute, of course.

It's a pleasure getting to know you, The Joker! God bless!!


The Joker [Pimpernel] 5 years ago

Yes your right about the bible, us christians must take it word for word, i try to but know people and think some of it is missing or alterd, bad of me to say i know but then i also know [some] of the Devils ways and he would love to twist it if he could and he's had long enough.

I'm gona stop there, i dont even want to think about it and my christian mentor Dr Charles Stanley says much the same as you that we must belive every word so i try, my personality works on what feels right and the Lord guides that for me.

God bless you JD...


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Well, as much as I love Dr. Stanley, he too teaches things such as tithing (as do the majority of pastors that rely on tithing for mega incomes), based on my study results found in my hub "Tithing, Giving and Alms". I, in my studies, have indeed researched and found that some of the Bible has been altered ~ that may shock you, as it did me, but it was also refreshing to be able to stay true to the unaltered Word, clearing up the confusion. Alterations stick out like a sore thumb and many of them have been exposed. Only God can show us these things, as we ask Him and rely on His Spirit to teach us. To see what I'm talking about, may I invite you to read my hub, "Should You Believe in the Trinity? Part 1 of 2". Read part 2 if you still want to see more. All I can do is reveal what's been revealed to me and trust God for the confirmation in each person's own spiritual walk.

May God continue to bless and keep you ~ JD.


Pimpernel s 5 years ago

Amen to that......

I will read both parts of that hub in the next few days.

I'm not partiqularly good at reading and tend to skip across as you have noticed before, i have'nt even read the bible right through nore do i understand what you mean by tithing [Dr Stanley]

My tallents are with the feel of everything, i knew about the bible as soon as i touched it.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Pimpernel s, You're a great reader and commenter! I appreciate you! Tithing is a 'payment', namely 10% and it was an Old Testament ordinance for those who raised livestock or grew crops. The tithe was given to the Levite priests. Because Jesus' father Joseph and He were carpenters, even they did not 'tithe'. A tithe is a type of 'first fruit' and Jesus is the 'First Fruit', the payment for our salvation. So much more in that hub. The Bible is living because the Word of God lives. I thank God He loved us so much to give us His Word in Spirit, flesh, written in the Bible and our hearts. God bless you!


Pimpernel s 5 years ago

Thank you.....Aaahh money, yes i've heard Dr Stanley mention 10% before, very clever and i've seen pictures of he's ministry.

Well mammon is the most powerfull of them all now days.

I'm from Essex in England so i only get him on Premier christian radio BUT he has saved many lifes around my way with he's 'In Touch' half hour and most of all MY TESTIMONY......read in that what you will, God spoke to me through him when i was about ready to fall and pulled me back from 15 years of playing with the Devil, now i listen to him 30 minuets an evening, i'm not a church goer but love thoes that do.

God bless you JD....


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Praise God! God certainly uses Dr. Charles Stanley for His glory, as He does all who are willing to open their mouths and share the love of Christ as prompted by His Holy Spirit. I can say this ~ what is of God bears fruit (and that would specifically align with Galatians 5:22). For the work(s) of the Spirit we shall receive a reward ~ and Dr. Stanley will be highly rewarded. I love him dearly. Keep on, and thank you for sharing your testimony, Pimpernel s!!


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kenneth avery 5 years ago from Hamilton, Alabama

GREAT read! Wonderful,in-depth food for thought. Keep up the great work.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, kenneth avery! I so appreciate the compliment and glad this was worth your time to read!! I surely found this study quite revealing!! God bless you!


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searchinsany 5 years ago from UK

This is an excellent Hub, well researched and beautifully presented.

Thank you for your comments on my Hub on this subject.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi searchinsany! Thank you so much ~ now you can see why I supported your hub as well. There's no way, when studying the scriptures thoroughly, we can come to the conclusion that Lucifer is Satan. People tend to see God and Satan as the forces of good and evil, but should not forget God has angels and Satan has angels. I found this study fascinating and I choose to believe the Word over the traditional doctrine of man. God bless you!!!


brian 4 years ago

You people all need to read the bible some more.

you shouldn't take or make any images.

truth is one of the keys, especially in reading.

Did the almighty creator of this universe write these words in this book or did men? men in council? church officials?

the religions started out from a form of zoroastrianism, from the north of mesopotamia, then mesopotamia. then spread out east and west and north and south,

then there was an ahriman from ur.

abram, abraham, from ur. etc, etc down the line of the kings list writen throughout the book.

VHVH,YHVH,IHVH, however you spell it its also pictographs of a so called holy name from which you are to derive the name of "GOD", yet not speak it.

what above so below... H= air above, H... earth below

/\or V, or Y (rod with fire), or I( arrons rod)= Fire

V=water, cup filled with water, its why wwww water www still looks like waves of water.

the Ur or err, error is that you all are picturing a figure of a god, angles, demons, devils.

the god exist only in the words of this book of clever writings, grammar, expression.

The Sword of moses is the word, i.e. the alaph-beit(in hebrew), alphabet (in english), Alpha-omega (of the greek alpha-beta).

-an education, the people were educated,

people its a book of education, numbers are assigned to letters in hebrew, greek, and even english.

gematria.

Angles and diamonds form words if you tabletise the different alphabets,- the angles and daemons.

theres also triangles, squares, circles, swirls, arches/angles, etc.

the math forms words in the gematria.

theres division, multiplication, addition, subtraction.

theres chemistry, or old alchemy.

are you afraid of words?

lololololol.

dumb fuckin sheep, the churchs thankyou for you money you worked hard for, the goverments also.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

brian,

James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

The LORD has told me to say this to you: May God judge the spirit that binds you and save the soul He gave you. I ask this in Jesus’ most Holy Name ~ Amen.


Anonymous 4 years ago

Just one of versions, quite informative though. But nobody can know the truth. After all I am partly agree with author. To my mind, Lucifer was just the Babylon king, not an angel or demon.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I appreciate your comment, Anonymous. If we look at Isaiah 14:12 it appears this one (the king of Babylon - his 'spirit' within) fell from the heavens, because it tells us he was cast down to the 'earth'. If we take this literally, this would point to him being a fallen angel:

"How you have fallen from HEAVEN,

O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the EARTH,"

People generally believe that fallen angels are demons, but they are not. Enoch declares demons are the spirits of the dead Nephilim (the giants whose bodies were destroyed in the great deluge).

Blessings to you.


EmbracingTheTruth 4 years ago

You have an excellent way of explaining things. I too was always taught that satan and Lucifer were the same and never thought to question it until now. It's definitely something I'll have to study on. Thank you for the read.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

EmbracingTheTruth, I say 'Praise God!'. I did this study, a pretty thorough one....and after seeing the results, I was WILLING to shed my indoctrination and accept what the Word of God taught. This was something definitely worth studying and writing about. Now, whenever I hear or read that traditional 'doctrine' coming so fluently out of those indoctrinated by the traditional teachings of men (that Lucifer is the Devil), I am burdened ~ simply hoping they will actually STUDY this subject for themselves and 'EmbraceTheTruth'. God bless you. I so appreciate your comments.


Vineeth 4 years ago

In Ezekiel 28,God condemns the satanic spirit in king of tyre.Satan aka Heylel aka Lucifer is a spirit.All angels are spirit beings,who can transform into any appearance.His origins are depicted in Ezekiel 28.It's not about King of Tyre,but the satanic spirit that possessed him.Scriptures also say angels mated with human women before Noah's flood and perhaps after that in genesis 6:4.The childeren born to these matings where the source of ancient mythologies like hindu,greek etc along with the flood at Noah's time(Ma-nu & saptarshi-which means great noah and seven saints & how they were saved from a great flood on a ship/boat is a part of hindu mythology.


Vineeth 4 years ago

Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

These verses make it clear that satanic spirit in the king of tyre was created as an angel cherub,and he was perfect in his ways,until sin was found in him and he was thrown down from heaven as Isiah 4:12 says.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Vineeth, Isaiah 14:12 is speaking of Lucifer, the king of Babylon. Ezekiel 28:14 is speaking of the king of Tyre. These kings battle against each other in Ezekiel 29.

Yes, angels fell from heaven with the Dragon (Satan) and they do take on human form. Which of the two cherubim is Satan? - Lucifer in Isaiah 14 who was not said to be in the garden of God or the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 who was said to have been in the garden of God? If you claim it was the king of Tyre, then Lucifer is not the Devil; if you claim it was Lucifer, he is not said to have been in the garden of God at all. Did God place cherubim in the Garden when Adam and Eve were case out? Yes. Were they called Satan? no.

The war in heaven does not mention an Archangel or cherub leading the war in heaven against Michael and his angels at all.

My latest hub is called "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil?" You might be surprised that God actually created Satan, as the Bible clearly states, as "a murderer from the beginning" for God's divine purpose.

I'm not sure you even read the entirety of this study because your argument has been answered by the scriptures. If you want to hold to traditional doctrine, let it be a witness to many of the stronghold indoctrination puts on people, so that even though they MAY read the Bible, it to no effect.


Vineeth 4 years ago

You exactly said the point,when you said that lucifer in Isiah is not found in the garden as the "cherub" in ezekiel 28.But we see satan in Garden of Eden in Genesis.Couldn't all 3 be the same,which is the only logical conclusion when whole of the scriptures are taken into account.You need to see the bigger picture,which is God judging satan to eternal hell fire in revelation 20:10.If satan was created with sin as you claim,then what is the point/justification in God casting him to eternal hell?It will also say that God created sin to tempt mankind,if we base ourself on your claim.That will make God unjust.So if you can address these bigger "issues" with sound reasoning then only you can prove yourself.God bless you.


Vineeth 4 years ago

You yourself said both isiah & ezekiel 28 is about Lucifer the cherub.How can King of tyre be in Eden,can you prove it,by scriptures?No you never will.

But we know who was in the garden of eden-It was satan,so we understand clearly that satan/lucifer/heylel are the same person -the ancient cherub who sinned by his pride.If you find this age old christian doctrine unsound,then you may ask an orthodox Jewish Rabbi,who will give you the same answer.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Vineeth, you asked if Satan, the cherub in Isaiah 14 (Lucifer) and the cherub in Ezekiel 28 (the king of Tyre) couldn't all be the same being. Well, 'Lucifer' the king of Babylon, and the king of Tyre battle against each other in Ezekiel 29. I never said "both isiah & ezekiel 28 is about Lucifer the chrub". Don't you believe that just as angels are separate from God that Satan's angels are separate from Satan? Why is that so hard for you? Oh yeah...indoctrination.

Likewise, there are three beasts shown in Revelation: The Dragon (Satan) who comes up out of the sea (Rev 12:3; 13:1); the Antichrist, who is the angel of the bottomless pit named Abaddon/Apollyon, aka the end-time king of Babylon (Isa 14 - Lucifer; Rev 9:11; 11:7; 17:8); and the False Prophet who comes up from the earth (Rev 13:11). They are clearly separated in Rev 16:13 "And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast [Antichrist] and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs..."

Though you commented on my latest hub "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil?", I don't know that you read it, let alone comprehended it. If Satan exercises God's wrath, why would he not be predestined for hell, to exercise God's wrath on the unjust?

If you believe Satan embodied the created serpent in the Garden and yet you also believe he embodied the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, why is it you ask how the cherub in Ezek 28 could have been in the garden? No, that specific human king was not in the garden, so put 2 and 2 together.

Speaking of Rabbi's, I have only One and He is the Spirit of Christ (John 1:38; 16:13).


Vineeth 4 years ago

So are you saying lucifer in isiah is not the cherub of Ezekiel28?


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Absolutely, Vineeth. So, please slow down and read this hub again, okay?


Vineeth 4 years ago

You said this-if we look at Isaiah 14:12 it appears this one (the king of Babylon - his 'spirit' within) fell from the heavens, because it tells us he was cast down to the 'earth'. If we take this literally, this would point to him being a fallen angel.

So isn't the 'spirit within' this king of babylon, the fallen angel which michael and his angels defeated & threw down from heaven in revelations 12?


Vineeth 4 years ago

You said ezekiel28,speaks of cherub,why can't this be lucifer?Any conclusive evidence ,rather than assumptions that contradict rest of the scriptures?


Vineeth 4 years ago

Why can't the spirit within king of babylon(isiah) be the fallen angel of revelation 12,why can't it be satan?Any conclusive evidence rather than false assumptions that contradict rest of scriptures?

How do you define justice of tormenting sin in eternal hell fire after directly creating it?


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Vineeth, you said correctly, "If we take this literally, this would point to him being a fallen angel." Yes. Were angels cast out of heaven with Satan? Yes. Does that make Satan an angel? No.

You're implying 'Lucifer', a fallen angel, could embody both the king of Babylon (Is 14) and the king of Tyre (Ez 28) at the same time and fight against each other in Ez 29? That makes no sense. You are assuming and contradicting scripture if you believe they are the same fallen angel.

An angel is not defined as a Dragon or vise versa. The only angelic being that resembles a fiery serpent is the seraph, and they are most certainly not cherubim.

I already answered your question regarding the creation of Satan who is predestined for hell on my hub "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil?" Hell is already prepared for Satan and his angels (Mat 25:41). If I am a manufacturer and package food, I plan the food to be eaten and the packaging cast away or burned. Likewise, based on 2 Sam 24:1 "And again the anger [639 – a nostril, nose, face, anger] of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [Satan] incited [5496 – incite, allure, instigate] David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah" and the cross-reference of the exact same incident in 1 Chr 21:1 "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved [5496] David to number Israel", Satan appears to be an instrument of God's wrath.

Prov 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [7563 rasa – wicked or criminal] for the day of evil."

Isa 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [7451 – ra = bad, evil]: I the LORD do all these things.”


famous james 4 years ago

People of comments, Stop!!! Listen to yourselves for a minute. Now I get the fact that God created all things Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, created darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I the lord do all these things. However, we must take into consideration, that a sin is a sin. Whether it's murder, rape, stealing, hate,false gods, fornication, adultery, blasphemy. Know matter what form or shape it represent itself, it is a sin. The same goes for Lucifer, Satan, Devil, Dragon, Serpent and Beelzebub who is the prince of the devils. read Mark3:22. They are all the same and have the same objective. read Mark 3:23 Jesus said , How can Satan cast out Satan. v24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand. v26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he can not stand, but hath an end. Jesus called him Satan read Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Satan was from the beginning of creation, before the fall of man, and that Jesus was made already for our Salvation. Listen.. Is not the Father, Son, Holy Ghost the same ? (Yes) Is not not, I am, Alpha & Omega, Immanuel, Jehovah the same(Yes) Why? Because it is for righteousness and will not divide against itself.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Appreciate your comment, famous james. You have categorized Good (God) and Evil (Devil). We're talking about 'persons' here; 'identity'. In other words, just as Michael the Archangel is not God, Lucifer (heylel), a fallen cherub, is not Satan. While there is no separating the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, aka the Alpha & Omega, Immanuel and Yehovah, there is no separating 'the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan'.

The Father of Truth is God; the father of lies is Satan. Both have children that serve them (John 8:44; 1 John 3:10) . Both have angels that serve them. While the Spirit of God can cast out Satan, Satan cannot cast out the Spirit of God. Satan cannot cast out Satan, anymore than God would cast out God.

The Bible is given to us for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (2Tim 3:16), thus the purpose of this teaching.


famous james 4 years ago

Is not Jesus... God?


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Jesus IS the Alpha & Omega, Immanuel and Yehovah = YES, He is God.


famous james 4 years ago

Some where in the introduction you stated that Lucifer can not be the same entity as Satan himself. (I do not understand). Could you enlighten me on where did they come from, and if in fact they are not from the same entity as you claimed.( the word entity means real being, reality, existence, a material substance). Who is Lucifer? And why you claim he is the antichrist. Where in scripture, that support that he Lucifer indeed is the antichrist. Whether Satan is Satan, Lucifer is Lucifer, Serpent is Serpent, Beelzebub is Beelzebub it's all going to hell in the lake of fire. The kingdom of evil.

If I walked out to my back yard, to see the beautiful landscape and the fresh cut grass. I would examine it to be perfect. Even though the word of God, said he created all things, he create evil. Whether it was Lucifer or Satan, took it upon itself to examine it and excepted it in the desire of it perfect being. Even by back yard as perfect as it may be have holes in it. Only if I desire to take a shove and dig.

Thank You for Listen.

I said to all Repent and accept Jesus as your Savior.

God Bless.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yes, famous james, all evil is predestined (Satan and his angels) and destined (those who choose to serve Satan and his anges) to the Lake of Fire.

You answered your first question, "where did they come from?" by quoting Isaiah 45:7.

Here is the study on the alignment of Lucifer and the prophesied Antichrist: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/LUCIFER-Th...

As to Isaiah 45:7, I have just recently written on this subject in my hub "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil?" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/God-Create...

I hope these two hubs will sufficiently answer your questions, all to the glory of God. God bless you, as well.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

I completely agree with what famousJames said.If Evil was directly created by God as this hub states,then "justice" of God has no meaning.So "judah's daughter" it would be wise to reconsider your understanding of the subject.God bless you.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello JasonNeo - famous james did not say "if Evil was directly created by God as this hub states,then "justice" of God has no meaning." If that's what YOU think, then say so.

We cannot argue with Isaiah 45:7; likewise, Mat 25:41 states, "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" What does 'prepared' mean? It means something that is made beforehand. Satan and his angels were created for their purpose, and predestined for the Lake of Fire. Mankind, on the other hand, will choose to have his/her name blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life (for everyone's names start out in it, because Jesus is the Savior of the whole world), sealing their own fate to the Lake of Fire. That fire was not pre-pared for mankind, but for the Devil and his angels.

As I've stated before, if you package food for consumption, do you not create the packaging that will be discarded and destroyed, once its fulfilled its purpose? You've commented plenty on my other hub; this one is not about that subject, but rather showing that 'Lucifer' is not the 'Devil'. You can rely on your own reasoning, or consider the Sovereignty of the Creator of all things, including evil. The Bible declares it, and I'm not over-riding the Bible with my own 'understanding'.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

No that is certainly not what i meant.What he said you very well know and understand.

God didn't create any package for destruction according to scriptures.He created satan as an angel -cherub with specific purpose.But satan and 1/3rd of angels fell from their glory because of pride.That is why pride filled hearts are still unable to find God.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

JasonNeo, You cannot prove by scripture that Satan was ever an angel, nor can you prove by scripture that "God didn't create any package for destruction."

John 8:44 “He [Satan] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Col 1:16 "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." (cross-ref Eph 6:12)

Isa 54:16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals And brings out a weapon for its work; And I have created the destroyer [7843 shachath - a verb meaning to spoil, to ruin, to destroy, to pervert, to corrupt, to become corrupt, to wipe out] to ruin."

Prov 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [7563 rasa – wicked or criminal] for the day of evil."

Isa 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [7451 – ra = bad, evil]: I the LORD do all these things.”

Lam 3:38 “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities [7451] and good things come?”

Amos 3:6 “If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity [7451] occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?”

Now, calamity is not ordained by God to befall His children, as promised in Jer 29:11: “'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity [7451] to give you a future and a hope.”

You just don't want to accept what the scriptures declare, because you've been indoctrinated otherwise, with a belief that 'tickles your ears'.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@judah's daughter-while i appreciate your straightforward attitude,it's not good for a believer to be rigid in his or her views.We must always be open to new ideas,if it's in tune with scriptures.

John8:44-use the phrase "from the beginning" in the sense that from the beginning of mankind.Which means when in the beginning of humanity,in garden of eden-satan who came as the serpent had already fell from his glorius position as an angel.God further judges him in genesis3:15 after he decieves Adam and Eve,which sealed his fate forever(that Jesus the son of Mary will destroy the head of satan's offspring-antichrist/beast,which happened on the cross and will be visible in the physical world in the coming delusion and wrath period).


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

@JasonNeo "while i appreciate your straightforward attitude,it's not good for a believer to be rigid in his or her views.We must always be open to new ideas,if it's in tune with scriptures." I have given you the 'tune' and you refuse to sing the song!

1 Corinthians 11:19 "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

2 Timothy 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."

"from the beginning" is the same as the first three words of the Bible "In the beginning". Satan was already Satan and cast out when he embodied the created serpent and was then judged to his belly. You are coming up with your OWN, private interpretation, which is condemned in the Bible. Repent.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@judah's daughter- you said "satan was cast out of heaven for embodying the serpent"?Why should God do that?By saying this you have contradicted your own assumptions,because before casting out of heaven satan should have been sinless,Amen?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

JasonNeo, are you smoking dope? You already said famous james said something he didn't say, and now you "quoted" me as saying something I didn't say. Is this how you read the Bible, too? Yes, Satan was cast out of heaven BEFORE he embodied the Serpent, not BECAUSE he embodied the Serpent. Now, I'm done with this ridiculous discussion. If God has allowed you to be blinded, who am I to 'make' you see?


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

God bless you,although i donot agree with you.Let God who see and know all things be the judge.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Amen, JasonNeo. Amen.


L7 4 years ago

I enjoyed your essay on lucifer. As I read thru the Bible the first time last year I came to this same conclusion. And came to understand the importance of not just looking at a verse but looking at the surrounding verses, then the surrounding chapters to understand the context. God bless.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi I.7 ~ Praise God! I apologize for not responding to you sooner, due to my work schedule. I appreciate your confirmation of the study of the scriptures and the only conlusion we can come to, based on their accurate interpretation. God bless you as you continue to grow and share what He teaches you. Thank you.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Wakerra, I did not post your comment, and want you to know that I do not even consider LDS doctrine, for it is a false doctrine. Since your 'bible dictionary' is a link (s) to an lds site, I will not even look at it and nor should you. I pray you will repent and come into the Light.


Wakerra profile image

Wakerra 4 years ago

um...ok. How did you come to that conclusion?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

You mean that LDS is a false doctrine? If you would like me to provide links to hubs I've written on the subject, I will provide them for you.


Wakerra profile image

Wakerra 4 years ago

No, I've seen plenty of Anti-Mormon stuff slandered across the internet. I just want a general response of how you figured such. Was it family? TV? Internet? Preacher?


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

How do you know a counterfeit dollar bill? Not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the authentic one. That's all I can tell you. Stick with the Holy Bible and study the original Hebrew and Greek wording, for translations can even give you doctrines of error. It takes labor, prayer and trust in the LORD to teach you.

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."


RyanAlucard 3 years ago

Hi I know this hub is a bit old but who exactly is the dragon that went into heaven? For some reason I believe Samael is the dragon.. But I don't know since he is an angel of god who went to oversee hell, correct? I'm pretty confused on who the dragon is and who exactly samael is I'm believing he is the angel of death that's in gods grace but I'm not sure.. Do you know anything about this? Because you answered my question about this topic.

Oh and I read somewhere that Samael is also in the garden if Eden and tempted eve to eat the apple?


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I don't read anywhere that the Dragon 'went into heaven', RyanAlucard. That would mean he started out OUTSIDE of heaven, then WENT INTO heaven. The war IN heaven preceded the Dragon and his angels' fall to the earth. Some think it's a future event, and yet the Scriptures declare otherwise, for the Serpent of Old was on the earth. Even when Satan came before the LORD with the 'sons of god' in Job 2:1, vs. 2 is when God asks Satan what he's been up to and Satan answered he'd been going to and fro on the earth...Furthermore, Rev 12 speaks of the Woman (Israel) giving birth to Jesus who was 'caught up to God and His Throne' (already happened).

Revelation interprets the seven 'heads' of this Dragon as governments, and the 'horns' or 'crowns' as rulers. The Dragon is Satan, the 'Serpent of Old' and the 'Devil', for these titles are all in the same sentence, meaning the same force. Just as the Holy Spirit works through His Church (there were 'seven' churches throughout the first three chapters of Revelation), as there are 'seven' heads on the Dragon. These forces oppose each other.

Rev 13:2 tells us the Dragon beast gives power to the Antichrist beast, who is the 'man' Isaiah 14:12-17 speaks of. Satan is able to enter both beast or person, as he did the Serpent in the Garden of Eden and Judas in John 13:27.

"Samael" is not mentioned in the Bible or even in the Book of Enoch; however, shows up in the Jewish Talmud and other extra-biblical writings. He is said to be an Archangel, which we know is not a Seraph based on Biblical descriptions. If he supposedly has 12 wings, that description also does not align with an Archangel or the Dragon of seven heads and ten horns/crowns.

The Bible NEVER calls the Dragon an angel, anymore than YHWH is an Angel. YHWH's Angel is a manifestation/appearance of His invisible Spirit to speak His audible Word to mankind, just as when "Satan disguises himself as an 'angel of light'" - in order to manifest/appear to speak his audible word to mankind. Jesus rebuked Satan, not Peter himself in Mat 16:23, for instance.

Michael is an Archangel, if not the only Archangel (for no others are mentioned in the Bible as such, specifically). Michael and his angels fought with the Dragon and his angels. God has angels and the Dragon has angels. This division happened in heaven and if Samael exists, he is obviously one of the Dragon's angels, but not the Dragon himself. 'Samael' means 'Venom of God' - does this then mean God is the Serpent? Or is Samael the Venom of the Serpent of Old? While venom is produced by the Serpent, it is not the Serpent itself.

The Bible names the Antichrist's spiritual name - it is not Lucifer or Satan, but Abaddon/Apollyon - Destruction/Perdition. Satan will work through him, Satan's Dragon nations and kings will give him his power, throne and authority.

Regarding the Death Angel - if we go back to when the Angel of Death came over Egypt to claim the firstborn of every Egyptian, even of their animals, we read in Ex 12:23 (KJV) "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you."

I hope this is helpful. Thank you for reading and commenting. God bless you.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

Hello,

It seems there is very little room to question whether Lucifer and Satan are the same entity, yet I think the similarities are all too striking to abandon (discount) that they are one and the same being. Much of the controversy here seems more of differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word "heylel" or “HYLL” which, whether “Lucifer" is “catholic” inspired, doesn’t hold a lot of weight historically. However “HYLL” was translated over the same way by Hebrew linguists of KJV translators as correct from the textus receptus and comparisons to MANY other TR Western European language translations such as one, the Geneva Bible.

Jerome’s translation of the OT, made directly from the Hebrew text of his day, and dating to ca. A.D. 400, it translates “HYLL” in Isaiah 14:12, as “lucifer.” Cassell’s Latin dictionary identifies this word as an “adjective“, meaning “light-bearing, light-bringing.”

William Smith’s Smaller Classical Dictionary notes that “Lucifer” (Latin) and “Phosphoros” (Greek) are both “epithets” given the planet “Venus” in antiquity, along with a few other designations. “Lucifer” was also used as a designation in mythology of several goddesses of light, including Artemis, Aurora, and Hecate, and others.

If Jerome intended “lucifer” here to be a “proper name“, ordinary Latin usage in his day (ca. A.D. 400) might suggest that he was simply thereby signifying the planet “Venus“, but evidence from his own writings (in the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI) indicates he interpreted Isaiah 14:12 as referring to “Satan’s fall“, and thereby, apparently, meant Lucifer as a “designation” of the “Devil“. Those who insist on retaining “lucifer” from the Vulgate in the English Bible are simply in essence affirming or re-affirming Jerome’s interpretation of that text, and the accuracy of the Latin Vulgate version. I tend to agree with this finding and makes more sense being historically and linguistically accurate of “Lucifer” rather than some devious, “catholic”, rendering to deceive us.

Jerome’s use of “lucifer” to translate HYLL had a strong influence on Bible translations into the many languages of Western Europe, BEFORE the English KJV, meaning godly scholars throughout that region of Europe concurred with Jerome’s rendering. According to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) under the entry “lucifer,” all English Bibles from Wycliffe (ca. 1384; his version was based directly on the Vulgate) to the KJV had “Lucifer” at Isaiah 14:12, apparently as a proper name, though possibly as a borrowed Latin adjective. This is hard evidence for the use “Lucifer” as divinely intended in my opinion.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

I believe many times the Lord speaks about subjects and people using metaphors more often than people realize. If you will notice Ezekiel 28 there is something interesting in regard to this ’Babylonian’ ruler that I have not seen addressed in any of the comments. Instead of starting in verse 12, go back all the way to verse 1. “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the PRINCE of Tyrus.”.. I stop here to point out the differences here between vs. 1-2 and vs. 12. First, these are 2 different visions; the first vision the Lord tells Ezekiel to address the “Prince” of Tyrus in vs. 1-2 and goes on to describe an individual who makes himself “a God” and sits in the “seat of God”, but the Lord said, “..yet thou art a man”. From this point on this vision shows the “fall” of this PRINCE and the destruction he suffers through the “strangers” the “terrible of the nations”. This is the first of 2 visions in chapter 28 seen by Ezekiel a contemporary of Daniel. You will also note vs. 11 the 2nd vision begins with a prophecy of lamentation for the “KING” of Tyrus which begins in verse 12. The Lord here is clearly addressing a different beings with obvious attributes far above the previous “prince” in the first vision. These attributes are of a supernatural nature beyond mere human potential. “Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty” vs. 12. This “KING” (not the “prince”) was in “EDEN” and was a “cherub” fell because of pride “by reason of thy brightness”. (This begins to sound more and more like Isaiah 14:12-16 of “Lucifer”. My point is the Lord is using human “princes” as types of the “KING” . If “Lucifer” of Isaiah 14:12 be a mere human, than he is a type of SATAN. Ezekiel gives further descriptions and attributes no mere human could possibly posses. Jesus saw the “fall from heaven” of “SATAN” Luke 10:18 and the “fall from heaven” of “Lucifer” Isaiah 14:12. There is only ONE central figure of note which “fell from heaven” because of pride of his “brightness” that the scriptures identify, whether a type (“Lucifer”) or real, and that is SATAN. I see no difference between them, all pointing to the same being, and far less confusing in this view.

As regards the identity of the “morning-star” (so translated) of Isaiah 14:12: if indeed it is correctly identified as Satan addressed through the person of the king of Babylon (whoever that historic individual was it is debated.), it is no legitimate objection that the term “morning-star” is also a title of Christ (as indeed it is, Revelation 22:16). It is to be noted that the term “lion” is one also applied in Scripture to both Satan (I Peter 5:8) and Jesus (Revelation 5:5). As with “lion,” so with “morning star,” the terms are metaphors used to characterize the individuals in question, and it is not unsuitable to use both descriptive metaphors for radically differing individuals.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi carrierwave - You don't answer how it is the prince or king of Tyre and the king of Babylon can be the same entity (Satan), as they fight against each other. Secondly, you said, "There is only ONE central figure of note which “fell from heaven” ..." - not true. Satan and a third of the angels fell from heaven. Both the cherub in Isa 14:12 and Ezek 28:13 were fallen angels. Satan is NEVER called an angel in the Scripture. All names are proper nouns, not adjectives. And Jesus is both Prince and KING. The name 'Lucifer' is not in the Scripture. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into other languages, and this adjective, 'lucifer', became a Catholicized entity known as Satan -- the Bible does not support this doctrine whatsoever, as I have written on the thorough Bible study conducted here. As I stated, I set out to prove Lucifer was/is Satan, but had to change my indoctrinated views to agree with what the Bible teaches.

Thank you for your contribution. I appreciate it. Blessings to you.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

Hello,

Read my post again--I am trying to find out where I said the "prince" and the "king" of Tyre were both the same entity; satan.(??) Do you know what a "type" is? I believe I said that, right ? Also, Satan is referred to, at least in rank, as an "angel of light" as his ministers are "ministers of righteousness". 2 Cor. 11: 11-15 . Another point, God gives proper names to individuals with built-in "adjectives" and compound terms that describe many times the character or work of the person named. Since you say "lucifer" is "not in scripture" that tells me you have rejected all translations from Tydale's work to the Authorized version, 1611 over 300 years of translating of the majority text into the languages of Europe. That's pretty bold.

Have a nice eternity--

carrierwave~


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

Hello,

Was Satan an Angel? You began your ‘analysis’ not with scripture, but with a rant towards another Hub editor who proposes that Michael “started the war in heaven” with the “dragon” in heaven in Revelation 12. Obviously that Hub editor is mistaken, yet you seem to use his ‘error’ as a springboard to launch your ‘evidence’ that Satan is never mentioned as an ‘angel’ in this portion of scripture. Basing a hypothesis on “what the Bible does not say” in a ‘single verse’ is weak ground initially because doctrinal truth can only be based upon ‘everything’ the Bible says on the subject (1Cor. 14:32) Also see: Isaiah 28: 9-10. What you have postulated from this ‘one scripture’ using “evidence of absence” cannot be logically proven on the basis of the Bibles method of interpretation, period.

Let me also postulate using “what the Bible does not say” about Revelation 12. You will note that “it never states” that Michael “is an angel” either in this scripture. Michael and his angels fought against the “dragon” (Satan) and his angels”. So we are on equal ground of proof employing only the “evidence of absence” in ‘one verse’ for both the “dragon” and Michael as being “angels”. Both have angels and both are never identified with being “angel”. (Contrary to your ‘claim’ both the “dragon” (Satan) and Michael are called ἄγγελος (angels) in scripture: 2Cor. 11:14 and Jude 1:9)

Next, you try to prove the “dragon” (satan) of Revelation 12 is the same as the “serpent” from creation in Genesis 3:1. Simply stated, you boldly announce that the “serpent” (the animal) IS the DRAGON of Revelation 12! The evidence? Again, you incorporate “evidence of absence” as a measuring stick and referred back to Revelation 12! “What we don't see here is any inclination that Satan was an archangel by the name of Lucifer. In fact, Satan is never said to have been an angel "from the beginning".(False 2Cor 11:14) (evidence of absence)

What you have failed to do is use God’s method of interpretation. You furthermore ignore the obvious question--how do you make the connection between the ‘animal/serpent’ in the garden with the “dragon” (Satan) Revelation 12? The “serpent” is a physically created ‘animal’ “beast (Hebrew “chay” living raw FLESH) of the field” Genesis 3:1 (the serpent, by the way, DIED like all beasts of the field after the fall of Adam) the other a “spiritual” entity cast out of Heaven! You fail to make any connection. (This reminds me of the J.W. doctrine that physical bodied Jesus died and is forever dead--but a “spirit being” called “the christ” appears in heaven in his place; A denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ).

Next, you quote John 8:44. (What you are trying to prove here I do not know exactly as you don’t explain)--I perceive an intention to link the “devil” as a murderer from the “beginning” the “serpent”. The only “murder” committed at the beginning was Cain slaying Abel Genesis 4:8. The beast (chay raw FLESH) “serpent” is nowhere present, but it was Cain that “murdered” Abel. The “seed of the serpent” came through ADAM to his sons--Rom 5:12. The fallen nature of man came through ADAM not the “serpent”--The “seed of the serpent” is the “spirit of unbelief” in all of us until we are saved by FAITH in God’s GRACE.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

"These fallen cherubim were both the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') and are NOT the same entity, let alone Satan himself."

So, are you saying these "KINGS" are "types" of fallen angels? If they are "types" of fallen angels--WHICH ANGELS? Who has desired to be worshipped as GOD and he gets that chance during the tribulation hour, and even tempted the Lord Jesus in the wilderness to worship him Mat.4:9-10. There is only ONE wicked spiritual being who has the desire and AUTHORITY to be worshipped "like the most high" EL' ELYON

"S A T A N". Your research is very flawed and out of sync with the bulk of scripture on this subject. The problem you have created by this is that you have "fallen angels" wanting to unseat God and be GOD, plus you have SATAN grasping to do the same! Don't you see the conflicting arrangement here and lack continuity? Satan is in charge of "HIS ANGELS". None of these wicked followers dare challenge SATAN for preeminence. Even the "archangel" Michael "durst not bring a railing accusation" against SATAN. (Jude 1:9)


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." - Ephesians 6 :12.

This scripture proves there is always a "spiritual" power behind every "temporal" power. That spiritual power behind the temporal one is clearly portrayed when Satan tempted the Lord Jesus with ALL the kingdoms of the earth and the GLORY of them in Matthew 4:4-10. Satan is in control of the ungodly kingdoms and nations on this earth. Jesus never challenged Satan with that claim. His draconian rule of planet earth continues until will continue until Revelation 11:15 when .."the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ." With this TRUTH in view, lets analyze Ezekiel 28 in the light of Mat.4:8-10

In Ezekiel 28 we find in the beginning of the chapter, Ezekiel is instructed to speak to the "prince" of Tyrus ; the “prince” is the temporal authority. Then in verse 11... Things suddenly change. God tells Ezekiel to speak to the "king" of Tyrus, the spiritual power behind the temporal.

According Mat. 4:8-10 who the “spiritual” controller of Tyrus? Answer: SATAN

The temporal “ruler” of Tyrus is the “PRINCE” ( נגד נגיד a commander) of Tyrus according to Ezekiel 28:1-2

By simple deduction, and rightly dividing the God’s Word the “KING” ( מלך royal, supreme potentate) of Tyrus is SATAN.

More proof:

When was the last time God referred to a “human” as a cherub (verse 14), or what human was alive and in the garden of Eden other than Adam and Eve (verse 13)?

It can be none other than Lucifer/SATAN!


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

"Satan is NEVER called an angel in the Scripture. All names are proper nouns, not adjectives. And Jesus is both Prince and KING."

This above is a flat out FALSEHOOD! and you know it!

2Cor 11:14

Jesus Christ is "Prince of Peace" and He is "KING OF THE JEWS" He is many things--but NOT a "prince" of a nation and King also of that same nation. I say you need to REPENT.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I don't know why the obsession, carrierwave (remind me of another hubber, newenglandsun and his handful of various handles/identities).

You quoted 2 Cor. 11: 11-15. If we know Satan's servants do as he does, then why do you question how fallen angels could desire power, not only in the heavens but here on earth? Michael, the Archangel, is the 'prince' over Israel, but Jesus is the King of Israel. As the Son of God He is the Prince of Peace, while yet the King of kings. We know the "Angel of YHWH" or the "Angel of the LORD" was not a created angel, but was the image of God Himself (who is Spirit). Thus, while Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's believe Jesus to be an 'angel', they are sorely mistaken. Titles are nouns as well. Lucifer, the proper name, is NOT in the Hebrew text. I don't care how many translations inserted it; it's not there.

Furthermore, Ezek 28:2 uses the word for 'ruler' of Tyre (not 'prince') and vs. 11 uses the word for 'king'. These are one in the same being. Angels are certainly called princes in several scriptures, either way (Dan 10:20-21; Dan 12:1). This word for 'ruler', even 'king' is also used in Eph 2:2, so you really have no argument, in light of all the scriptures.

1Cor. 14:32 and Isaiah 28: 9-10 do not prove your point, but is rather your opinionated attack.

You said, "Let me also postulate using “what the Bible does not say” about Revelation 12. You will note that “it never states” that Michael “is an angel” either in this scripture. Michael and his angels fought against the “dragon” (Satan) and his angels”. Well, Jude 1:9 specifically calls Michael an Archangel (Greek 743. Archangelos). He is the only Archangel mentioned in Scripture. The Dragon, the serpent of old, the devil and Satan, on the other hand, is NOT called an Archangel or even an angel anywhere in Scripture. Furthermore, 2 Cor 11:14 states that Satan is 'disguised' or is 'transformed into' an angel. If he already IS an angel, he need not disguise himself or transform himself into one.

I have taught that the serpent was a created beast of the field. Just as Satan entered into Judas, he entered the created beast of the field, just as he influenced Cain to murder his brother. Thus, Revelation refers to Satan as "the serpent of old'. The "serpent seed" doctrine is extra-biblical, contradicts Gen 4:1 and is absolutely false (heresy). If YOU don't believe the serpent in the Garden is speaking about Satan, then you must believe the cherub in Ezekiel 28 was "in Eden, the Garden of God", which the cherub "Lucifer" in Isa 14:12 is not said to have been there ever. A cherub is not a serpent-like angel. The seraphim are serpent-like. These two kings (cherubim) fight against each other, so they are obviously not the same angel, let alone one entity called Satan.

I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I used the Holy Bible to prove the doctrine of Satan not being an angel by the very Word of God. It is you who have not given ANY scriptural evidence that Satan was an angel "from the beginning" - that bright, musically talented, most powerful Archangel seeking to overtake God's throne.

If you really look at the angel hierarchy, Archangels are not the most powerful angels. Cherabim and Seraphim are more powerful. Michael did as we should do when rebuking the Devil or Satan, that "serpent of old" - go the the LORD Jesus Christ to rebuke him! Satan reports to His Creator, as is evident in Job. Once cast out, even overpowered by Michael and his angels, he knows his place. The kings of the earth that were doing as "their father the devil" did and does, sought/seek to make themselves higher than God. Look at the Pharisees - furthermore, look at the Pope! We had a hubber here that passed away a couple of years ago, who boasted how his theological books (mocking God and the Bible) were more popular than the Bible!

I have a biblical grasp on how the spirit realm intertwines with the physical realm. If you want to read on that subject, I invite you: http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h......

Basically, you're quoting your own indoctrinated reasoning, but NO Scriptures to prove "Lucifer" is Satan. That's what I used to do. Sorry, but I'm sticking with only what the Bible clearly teaches. As far as this sound doctrine leading to more questions - search the Word. The answers are there. Thus, the link above regarding the intertwined spiritual and physical realms.

Now, I haven't attacked you or called you names. I would appreciate it if you would not be so reactive, though after being in the HubPages community for four years, this stuff doesn't ruffle my feathers as it used to.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

“You quoted 2 Cor. 11: 11-15. If we know Satan's servants do as he does, then why do you question how fallen angels could desire power, not only in the heavens but here on earth?”

There are many things that satan wickedly does; yet according to scripture satan with his tail “drew a third part of the stars in heaven” Rev. 12:4 and the record shows that satan’s ultimate plan is his total “worship”. This is the ultimate slap in the face of God and if he can get the whole world to do it he has won. But God always has a “living” remnant on his side. Satan’s gaul and tenacity even led him to tempt the Son of God to “worship me” (him) He wants total preeminence over the creation of God and obliteration of the commandment of God: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” ; and that is a biblical fact. (Mat. 4:8-10) Satan’s angels are commissioned to carry out “his” plan. You cannot tell me satan is going to allow one of “his angels” to usurp his plan by getting attention away from him for one second? Every time man in pride wants worship, God brings him down. (Prov. 16:18). This is why I object to your “teachings” on this subject.

Unwittingly, you are diminishing the awareness of satan’s tactical plan to be omnipotent, giving his angels a place in scripture that are designations only to satan. Whether the angels, as you stated, “could desire power” is irrelevant. The evidence proves satan has the allegiance and control of his troops. There is no other usurper of the very throne of God in Heaven but satan alone. Isaiah 14:12-20 is a designation to satan’s assault to that very throne of God in Heaven. The description of the “light bringer” (Latin Lucifer), in spite of your “teaching” to destroy any idea this is a satanic designation, is beyond doubt satan’s tactical advance to the throne of God in Heaven. His desire to “ascend into heaven (3rd heaven) and set up a throne there “on the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north”.. above the clouds and the stars of God. This can only be a satanic designation.

I also see another dangerous pattern in your “teaching”; that is your attitude toward God’s revelation in the Word the God. You are pushing the modern versions which have shown to be corrupted with some 60,000 words omitted from the majority text while “catholicizing” any version that is using the Latin redition “lucifer” in Isaiah 14. Your distain for “lucifer” casts doubt on the whole of scripture in any translation containing it. This is sets dangerous precedence over God’s preservation of His words into the English language.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

Furthermore, 2 Cor 11:14 states that Satan is 'disguised' or is 'transformed into' an angel. If he already IS an angel, he need not disguise himself or transform himself into one.”

Take another careful look at this scripture but in the context with verse 15. This scripture does not say he was transformed into an angel! (That is what you said above) ; There is no deception or “marvel” in him as being an “angel“; it is when he puts on the disguise of “LIGHT” as an “angel of God“! “…God is LIGHT and in him is no darkness at all”. 1John 1:5. John 1:7-8 states that the Lord Jesus is the “LIGHT” that John the Baptist came to bear witness of. .Jesus called “himself” the “LIGHT” of the World”. More proof: Verse 15 states …“it is no great thing that HIS MINISTERS are transformed into MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS”. Notice: they did not become “ministers” when they are transformed; they were already “HIS ministers”; it was when those “ministers” put on the disguise of “righteousness” as “ministers of the Gospel” that Paul is warning about!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

carrierwave - "Lucifer" is not an English word, but is Latin inserted into the Hebrew text that reads 'heylel'. I'll take the original language over any translation into another language. Heylel means "star of the morning" or "son of the dawn" and is not a Proper Name. In Rev 12 the phrase "third of the stars" is interpreted later in the same chapter as "third of the angels". We also know that angels were called "morning stars" and "sons of God" in Job 38:7. We agree that Lucifer is an angel; however you even said the name is described as "light bringer", so if Satan is already a "light bringer" or "angel of light", he doesn't have to disguise himself as one or transform himself into one. Jesus is called "the bright and morning star", so we can see that Lucifer is the Antichrist. You stated, "You cannot tell me satan is going to allow one of “his angels” to usurp his plan by getting attention away from him for one second?" Gee, the Bible tells me the Dragon (Satan) gives the Antichrist his power! (Rev 13:2) Isaiah 14:12-20 is about the KING OF BABYLON, a MAN if you read vs. 3 & 16! Who does God judge in Revelation? Mystery BABYLON.

Satan is not the Antichrist, for they are split up at the beginning of the millennial reign. The Antichrist and False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire, while Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for the thousand years, after which he is also cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev 19:20-20:10). You can go on and on, but I'm sticking with the Word.


carrierwave profile image

carrierwave 2 years ago

Again, the description of the “light bringer” (Latin Lucifer), in Isaiah 14: 12, in spite of your “teaching” to destroy any idea this is a "satanic" designation, is beyond doubt satan’s tactical advance to the throne of God in "Heaven". That "spiritual battle" in Heaven failed. In the physical world, he can only possess (take bodily control) of beasts and human agents carry out his "plan". This is his only channel left to get his day of worship. Yes, he will possess a person called the "man of sin" as he did Judas, but only to the end, the world will worship "HIM" and further that plan. "And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power to the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, who is like unto the beast?.." (Rev. 13:4) Satan possesses a "man" that in turn causes the unsaved to worship HIM, (satan) plus the unsaved worship the "man" whom satan has possessed. That gives satan the best of both worlds; the spiritual and the physical. Both ways SATAN is worshipped. Satan has not, and WILL NOT share his desired position with another angel. (I never said satan was the anti-christ) Isaiah 14:12 is satan's designation--his climb and fall from Heaven. No earthy "king" can fit those "spiritual" components found in that scripture, and no other "angel" did what only satan has demonstrated throughout the rest of scripture to have done. Matt 4:8-10 Luke 10:18, Rev. 12:4,

The word "hêylêl" , even though "Strong's" has "morning star" as a definition for the Hebrew, there is no connection to the Hebrew word "star" (kôkâb) in the term, only in that it brings forth "light". Strong is going back to antiquity and rendering a similar explanation for 'that word' that Jerome did which was the planet Venus--but Jerome saw the connection to satan in the texts he was translating. Jerome moved to Bethlehem while he translated the Vulgate and lived there for 35 years and became fluent in Hebrew. Now you can say "I always stick with the Hebrew", but do you speak fluent Hebrew and write Hebrew?

It is also of interest that Pope Clement of Rome in his "Apostolic Constitutions" holds to "non-satanic role" in Isaiah 14:12 with another Pope Ambrose and others. The list includes two Popes and six Doctors of the catholic 'church' you can put in your corner of interpretation.

As for satan being a "light bringer", this is referring to his former status in heaven; was "perfect in beauty and wisdom" and fell because of pride in his countenance. 2 Cor.14:11 is about satan's status AFTER HIS FALL , and does not suggest he "WAS" an angel of "light" in Heaven. After his demise he has power to appear as God's messenger by transforming his countenance to that rank of godly angel. Your suggestion, since he is the "bringer of light, already makes him an "angel of light" makes no sense and out of sync with the scripture.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Okay - you said, "Yes, he will possess a person called the "man of sin" as he did Judas, but only to the end, the world will worship "HIM" and further that plan. "And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power to the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, who is like unto the beast?.." (Rev. 13:4) -- so, you've stated here that Satan possesses the "man of sin" who is, of course, the Antichrist. You can't possibly be saying the Dragon and the beast here are the same entity. Why, you ask?

Because you then went on to say, "(I never said satan was the anti-christ)". Well, the two beasts in the above passage are TWO. You can look at the fact there are THREE beasts in Revelation. Read 16:3 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Is Satan three beings, two of which are cast alive into the Lake a Fire a thousand years before he is? Just as twisted as the Catholic Trinity.

So, "star of the morning" is not the Antichrist of "bright and morning star"? (Jesus) If not, then both the king of Babylon and the King of kings are "Lucifer" -- quite the twist of the Word there, eh? You are trying to say Satan possesses the Antichrist, but is not the Antichrist. How about the False Prophet who has "two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a Dragon" (Rev 13:11)? Oh, Satan possesses him, too! You have to agree that they are separate beings because of the "three frogs" and what I shared earlier regarding their separation at the start of the millennial reign.

You're basically teaching that Satan possesses all his angels then. Thus, all the angels are Satan himself? Satan is not omnipresent. There's Satan (the Dragon), his angels and then there are demons - all numbered and none omnipresent. You would have to agree (unless you adore confusion). Accept the fact that this angel of Isa 14 (the king of Babylon) fights against the angel of Ezek 28 (the king of Tyre) in Ezek 29. Satan fights against himself? Jesus said, "A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand" (thus why He couldn't be Satan casting out demons) - Mat 12:25. There is no proper name 'Lucifer', so this 'angel in heaven' that you call the "light bearer" is never said to have transformed into Satan, the Dragon. The Dragon was THERE in the war with Michael BEFORE the fall! The Dragon IS the "serpent of old, the Devil and Satan" and always has been - a "murderer FROM THE BEGINNING."

I invite you to read my hub (the second one of the "Related Hubs" list above the comment section entitled, "God Created Satan - Did God Create


Son of man 23 months ago

Hello children of the one true living God, please ask the Lord Jesus Christ to let the Holy Spirit guid eyou.

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