Is The Doctrine Of Calvinism Biblical Or Not?

Which of the three below are right? Calvin, Luther, or the Bible?

 

John Calvin - Invented the doctrine known today as "Calvinism"

Martin Luther - The Roman Catholic who protested the false teachings of the Catholic Church thus starting the Protestant Reformation

The Bible: The Word of God

Is Calvinism Biblical? Why or Why Not?

My job as an Apologist/Evangelist is to "perfect the saints" (Eph 4:11-12) and to warn of unbiblical trends and false doctrines!

What you don’t know CAN hurt you. That’s why it’s VERY important to know what doctrines that have a Christian label on them floating out there are biblical and what doctrines aren’t.

Why do this? Because truth matters and the more truth we know the freer we will be!

Where did Calvinism come from?

**John Calvin 1509-64 (Presbyterian churches) invented the doctrine known today as Calvinism

  • Calvinists have hijacked the Reformation. That’s why Calvinism is also called "Reformed Theology" even though Luther and Calvin never met. Calvin was 8yrs when Luther started protesting the Roman Catholic Church.

  • **This misrepresentation of the Sovereignty of God and the lie that man doesn’t have a free will takes its roots back to Luther (who was a follower of Augustine) who in 1525 wrote a book called "The Bondage of the Will". Then to John Calvin’s "Institutes on the Christian Religion" in which this doctrine was expounded.

  • Do your homework and history shows us that Calvinism doesn’t really come from John Calvin it comes from Augustine (one of the fathers of the Roman Catholic Church and called the father of the inquisition.)

  • Calvin quotes Augustine in his "Institutes on the Christian Religion" over 400 times.

  • Charles Spurgeon said, "Calvin derived it [Calvinism] mainly from the writings of Augstine." (as cited in Dave Hunt’s book on Calvinism "What Love is This?".

  • John Calvin admitted that if he wanted to write a confession of his faith he could only do so only with the writings of Augustine.

  • D. James Kennedy said in his book "Why I Am a Presbyterian" on pg 193 "I am a Presbyterian because I believe that Presbyterianism is the purest form of Calvinism"

  • RC Sproul said, "Augustinianism is presently called Calvinism or Reformed Theology".

  • Calvinists agree that Calvin is not the originator of Calvinism, but Augustine was the one who came up with these ideas.

**Catholic Connection: Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin immersed himself in the writings of Augustine. The 2 best known fathers of the Protestant Reformation [Luther, Calvin] were heavily influenced by Augustine the devout Roman Catholic.

What is Calvinism and is it Biblical?

Basically, Calvinism is best known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

  • Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability),
  • Unconditional Election (I call it Selective Salvation)
  • Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
  • Irresistible Grace (sounds like an Oxy Moron, how can grace be irresistible?)
  • Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

T - Total Depravity:

They use Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

At Calvinists colleges they will try to indoctrinate you with this line of reasoning. First they’ll ask, "class what comes first faith or regeneration?" Faith of course they say but then the professor says, "what a minute class, don’t you understand the natural man is dead in trespasses and sins. Now how is a dead person going to believe? God has to sovereignly regenerate you, He has to give you life before you can believe and it’s only after you been regenerated that then He gives you the faith to believe. He can’t give dead people the faith to believe".John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead (in trespasses in sins) shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Apparently they lived because they heard His voice, and they could only live after they heard His voice. In contrast: John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. In order for a Calvinists to impose their views on scripture they have to equate physical death with spiritual death. A physically dead person can’t believe, disbelieve or sin. A person may be spiritually dead but they are physically alive and are able to believe and are also able to do good things. They use John 1:13 to support Calvinism. John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  • John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
  • John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
  • Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
  • Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:
  • Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (You don’t have to reason with the elect because they’re already saved and what’s the point of God reasoning with people He knows He’s already predestined to Hell?)
  • Joshua said, "Choose you this day who you shall serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). If God already chose our destiny for us, why was it so important for Joshua to make this admonition?
  • Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Doesn’t say "ye could not")
  • Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

U - Unconditional Election:

They say "some are elected into salvation, others are not" – Eph 1:4, Rom 9

"He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will."

  • Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

"God is kind to the unsaved, He gives them sunshine" Calvinists say.

But that’s like having someone over for a nice meal that you plan on stabbing to death when they’re just about to leave. It’s nice to have someone over for a meal but not in that context! Didn’t Christ explain in Mark 8:36 that it is pointless to gain the whole world if you lose your soul?

  • 1 Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
  • 1 Cor 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; (predestinating millions of souls to eternal torment is kind?) It’s not about His sovereignty. God is sovereign. He has the RIGHT to send any of us and ALL of us to Hell! The issue is, is God kind?

**Election deals with the selection for service; not salvation. In fact, it couldn’t be talking about salvation. Jesus and the angels were part of the "elect," (1 Pet 2:6, 1 Tim 5:21) but they didn’t need to be saved. God called Israel "His chosen people" (Deu 7:6) but not all Jews are saved. John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" but John 6:70 "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Being chosen (elected) means for service not salvation.**Predestination simply means something has been predetermined to take place in the future. This concept is found in the Bible, but is also found in the secular world. For example, anyone who becomes a policeman is predestined to have certain attributes (such as the authority to arrest people).

  • God has predetermined everyone who becomes a believer will "be conformed to the image of his Son" (Rom 8:29, 30) and will be "holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4,5). Predestination talks about what will take place after a person becomes a Christian.
  • Romans 9:21 says God is the potter and we are the clay. This verse is talking about service, not salvation. There are several places in the Old Testament that use the illustration of the potter and clay. These verses refer to Israel as being the clay. Since only a portion of the Israelites were believers, these verses could not be referring to salvation.

L- Limited Atonement:

Jesus only died for the elect. – Mat 20:28, 26:28, Isah 53:12. They want to argue that because these verses don’t say Jesus did "for all" but "for many" that Jesus must only have died for the elect.

  • Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Christ only died for the elect which would mean that only the elect were "ungodly" which the Calvinists again, knows is far from true.)
  • Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (If all means "the elect" then we could conclude that only they elect went astray" which is not true.)
  • Mat 25:41 Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. It was not prepared ahead of time for us.
  • Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (How can it be a joy to people God has already predestined to eternal torment?).
  • Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
  • They have to change words like "world, whosoever, every-man, all" to elect in order to change the Bible to fit their false doctrine.
  • 1 John 2:2, " And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." According to Selective Salvationists, this verse should read "And He is the propitiation for the sins of the elect, and not only for the elect, but also for the sins of the elect."
    This, of course, does not make any sense. Selective Salvationists are now in a bind. Either they have to hold to an interpretation that doesn’t make sense or they have to admit that this verse is actually saying that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. If this is the case, selective salvation cannot be true.
  • Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Calvinists focus on the first part of John 6:37 to support the TULIP doctrine of irresistible grace. Only if taken out of context. V37 is just saying the Father has ordained that every believer will have eternal life.

Someone will doubtless point to verse 44 to support the doctrine of irresistible grace.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is absolutely true that no man can come to Christ except the Father draw him, but Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me." How does God draw men to Christ? He draws through the Gospel, which He has commanded to be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15). It is by the Gospel that God calls men (2 Thess. 2:14). 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 tells us that those who are lost are lost not because they are not chosen for salvation, but because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

I - Irresistible Grace:

When God calls His elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

  • Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9). But if it’s forced by God through Predestination than it’s no longer a gift. Irresistible grace is an oxymoron. How can grace be irresistible? Calvinism teaches a forced "grace".
  • How could God be just if He’s going to send a person to Hell for refusing the gospel when it was God who made it so the person couldn’t accept the gospel even if he wanted to? Simple, God couldn’t be just. Gen 18:25 "…Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
  • Being forced to go to heaven is like the Muslims who force people to convert to Islam at the edge of a sword against their will.
  • It’s been said, "a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".
  • This doctrine makes God look like he’s some sort of puppet master. It’s a misrepresentation of God!

P - Perseverance (Persistence) of the Saints:

But these verses prove "Perseverance of the saints" wrong: Jn 10:27-28, 1st Jn 5:12 (hath the Son/hath life), 1st Cor 3:15. Persevering until the end to earn your salvation is NOT Bible!

The Fruits of Calvinism:

  • Lack of soul winning zeal or outright disobedience to Jesus’ command for ALL able bodied Christians to "preach the gospel to every creature"
  • An arrogant spirit/feeling of elitism: "We’re the elect and you’re not" type of thinking.

How is your relationship with God your Creator?

Consider this:

God says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). All of us have sinned against our Creator (broken the moral laws of God our Creator) in our past and nothing we can do in the present can wipe out our past. And because God is a Holy Creator He must punish sin, He cannot allow it in His heaven. "The wages [penalty] of sin is death [eternal separation from God in the lake of fire]" (Romans 6:23a)

You say - "but I try to be a good person why won't my good works or my religion take me to God's heaven?"

Because the Word of God says:

  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5)

  • Think about it: If our good works/religion took us to heaven then we could have something to boast about when we get there. Also if our good works/religion took us to heaven then Jesus Christ died on the cross for no reason. But God makes no mistakes.

God sent His Son Jesus to save us because we can't save our selves. Our good works/religion WILL NOT take us to God's heaven.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

It is SIMPLE to be saved:

Salvation is a FREE GIFT (not something to be earned through your religion/works):

  • For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

  • the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23b).

  • For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13)

Right there where you are will you turn from your life of sin and receive Jesus as your Saviour and be certain of going to heaven when your earthly life is over?

If yes, just say something like this from your heart:

"Dear God I have sinned against you. I'm sorry for my sin. I believe you sent Jesus Christ your Son to die on the cross and rise again for my sins. I accept your forgiveness and receive Jesus as my personal Saviour. Take me to heaven when I die. And help me to live for you while I'm still here. Thank you God for saving me today in Jesus name Amen"

If you just asked the Lord to forgive and save you, that's great news! Please contact me I'd like to be a blessing to you any way I can.

Think about it.

Copyright © 2009 All Rights Reserved.

Flipside hosted by Jay Ricci - episode title: "Is The Doctrine Of Calvinism Biblical Or Not?" Part 1

Flipside hosted by Jay Ricci - episode title: "Is The Doctrine Of Calvinism Biblical Or Not" Part 2 The Conclusion

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Comments 30 comments

SirDent 7 years ago

Is it funny that I just happened upon this hub right after reading what I did? When God takes away the will of man to decide for himself what he wants, He is then a slave owner. God gives man the freedom of choice to choose what he wants. Calvin's doctrine is indeed a false doctrine.

You present good information that is biblically sound. Keep up the good work of the Lord.


einron profile image

einron 7 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA

Great Hub! Thumbs up. Wonderful explanation! Shall send this out to many people who love the Lord. Thank you. God bless.


cjv123 profile image

cjv123 7 years ago from Michigan

Excellent and thoughtful explanation. I have always had a bit of a problem with Calvinism, and you've explained WHY concisely for me. Well done!


Rachel 7 years ago

I appreciate your clear explanations. Also your speaking. Thank you for contending for the true faith against the false gospel of Calvinism, and also for exposing its roots in that it came from Augustine, a Roman Catholic!

However, I may differ with you on the importance of our perseverance. Are there not many Scriptures that speak of it being our choice, our responsibility, to stand firm till the end (Jesus in Matt. 24:13) and make our calling and election sure so that we will never fall (2 Peter 1:10)? Or how about when Jesus says in Luke 8:13, "They believe for a little while, but in the time of testing they fall away"?

I too have written against Calvinism at my site, for I believe it to be a repugnant doctrine that defames God's holy, loving, just character as He reveals Himself in His Word. It also give a false way of salvation and is therefore a false gospel. For they say salvation comes through God's sole work in predestinating the elect for salvation (while deliberately damning most others by making them UNable to come to Him.) Thus they really deny "salvation by faith" --for faith is choosing to believe. I wrote about this in my message titled "He Who Creates That He May Torture".

Well, again, thank you. Keep on.

Rachel


Thinkaboutit77 profile image

Thinkaboutit77 7 years ago Author

Thanks Rachel for reading this hub. I appreciate the sincerity of your beliefs concerning perserverance. Salvation is a gift from God right? Is this gift eternal or temporary (i.e. only eternal if you perservere enough)?

The Bible I believe is clear, eternal life = eternal (unending life). Now we should perservere in the faith and live holy lives for the Lord who saved us. But for those who don't they'll be chastened as a father corrects a son - (see Hebrews 12). If we had to perservere "until the end" in order to keep our salvation then 1) salvation wouldn't be eternal for no one can live a "good enough" Christian life and 2) God wouldn't have no children to chasten (correct).

Once a person has been born again (saved, born into the family of God) they become His child and once born you can be unborn no matter what we do. We will be corrected by our Father but we can't be unsaved or unborn. Also those that are lazy unholy Christians (if they could lose their salvation because of not living up to God's standard of holiness) then how would any Christian stand before Christ as the Judgement seat of Christ (which is a different judgment than the Great White Throne judgment for unbelievers) and had their bad works burned up (1 Cor 3:14-15)?

In brief response to the verses you mentioned:

Matt 24:13 (in context) is reffering to the Great Tribulation, so be careful not to rip a single verse out of its context. Jesus said those Jews that escape the wrath of Antichrist and "endure to the end (of the tribulation" will be saved at the appearing of Christ to save the remnant of Jews and then "all Israel (the remnant) will be saved".

2 Peter 1:10 deals with our testimony or our service not our salvation.

Luke 8:13 is referring to people who only had a head belief of Christ not a heart belief. They had no root which means they didn't believe in their heart, they only give lip service to Christ because they believed in their head.

Those that have real faith will produce good works as the BYPRODUCT of their faith. Their root will produce fruit, but no root no fruit. But fruit (works) don't keep a person saved they just DISPLAY the salvation that's already there as the EVIDENCE of one's profession.

Jude 1:24 says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"

Eph 4:30 says, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption"

Why are we sealed? Why is our salvation secured and not up to our "persevering"?

1 Peter 1:5 says, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"

Christians are eternally secure once they are saved because God keeps us saved by HIS POWER not by our own.

Praise Him for that!


Theophany profile image

Theophany 6 years ago

Why are you saved and your neighbor is not? Is it because you are more righteous? More intelligent? You would admit that you made the right and good choice in choosing Jesus, correct? If so, then you surely have something to boast about. But if God was the one that granted you faith (Eph 2:8), then that eliminates ALL boasting - even the boasting in one's own seemingly virtuous faith.

This is not to eliminate free will at all. I think you really misrepresent free will. You certainly do have free will. The downside is that we always choose what we desire. In that sense, our will is in bondage to our sin because our sinful nature cannot desire true righteousness. If you think there is still, after the fall, some moral ability to choose Christ in your own strength, you are not taking seriously the extent of the fall.

The good news is, when the Spirit regenerates you, the breadth of your desires may still include sinful ones, but it now also includes a true desires for God. And when you desire God, you will choose him in your free will. God does not force anyone to believe on him. All he does is opens the eyes of your heart to see him as he is. And when we finally see him, it is a no-brainer decision is it not? Please don't misrepresent the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. God does not drag people into heaven kicking and screaming because they don't want to be there. Nor does he deny the kingdom to those who truly desire it. If you don't want to be with God, it's because he hasn't opened the eyes of your heart. If you DO want to be with God, that's because he HAS opened the eyes of your heart. Now, of course you would probably agree with me that God is never OBLIGATED to open the eyes of any sinner's heart. So don't accuse God of any injustice here. God grants mercy to some; the others receive justice - the just penalty for their sins. NO ONE receives INJUSTICE. Stated simply, the doctrine of Irresistible Grace does not deny that grace can be resisted (it surely can). Rather, it asserts that God can overcome man's resistance when it pleases Him to do so.

One last question for you: Is Jesus merely a POTENTIAL Savior of all, but an ACTUAL Savior of none? If salvation truly depends on the person believing and awaking himself, then we must ask the obvious, hypothetical question here: What if NO ONE repented and believed on Jesus to be saved? Did Jesus die in vain?

The Scriptures clearly teach the omnipotence of God in salvation. When he intends to save, He WILL save. God does not POTENTIALLY save. He will ACTUALLY save. God's intentions are never thwarted by man's resistance. Your denial of an ACTUAL, DEFINITE atonement implies that God's "Plan A" might not work at all.


Theophany profile image

Theophany 6 years ago

I forgot to point out one thing. You also say that God predestines those who will believe. But in Romans 9, Paul says:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Notice this election not only takes place before they were born, but Paul clarifies that it has nothing to do with their future actions either ("before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad").

Also, notice in verse 14 and 15, when Paul ANTICIPATES the kind of response he will get for speaking of such an election:

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

The question for you is: Why would Paul anticipate his opponents to accuse God of injustice? If Paul shares your position - that everyone chooses God on their own - why would anyone accuse Paul of imposing injustice with God? The very fact that Paul is truly speaking of God's unconditional, sovereign choice is what is causing the strong opposition. If Calvinists are facing the same type of opposition as Paul, I think that's a good sign that this doctrine is indeed found in, at least, Romans 9.

Lastly, the potter/clay analogy does not refer to service. It would not fit the context of the whole epistle, let alone the immediate context of Romans 9. Paul says in verses 22 and 23,

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

Surely, the "objects of his wrath prepared for destruction" is not referring to service. It's referring to eternal destiny.


Thinkaboutit77 profile image

Thinkaboutit77 6 years ago Author

I'll just briefly respond to two things you said. You said, "objects of his wrath prepared for destruction" that is referring to the "hell..prepared for the devil and his angels". Remember, originally heanen (being in God's presence) was meant for humanity, hell was not.

You said, "our will is in bondage to our sin because our sinful nature cannot desire true righteousness"

If that is true how do you explain unbelievers doing good things like a unbelieving soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers? etc

Here's two resources you need to check out:

1) Watch Dave Hunt's dvd called "What Love Is This?"

2) go to http://biblehelp.org/selsalv.htm and read up on "Selective Salvation"

Hopefully this clears up your confusion my friend.


Theophany profile image

Theophany 6 years ago

Please explain what "objects of his wrath prepared for destruction" is referring to then if you do not agree with my interpretation.

I don't think you realize the omniscience of God before creating humans. Before he created, he knew we would sin and he knew there would be some that would reject him and perish. Before creation, he had already prepared some for destruction (and I'm not saying he CAUSED them to sin; I'm saying that God withholds his grace from some so that they remain lost in their spiritual blindness and deadness). It can't be more clear in Revelation 13:7-9,

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

That book existed before the need even for a Lamb to die for sinners. That book existed from the creation of the world.

You said, "If that is true how do you explain unbelievers doing good things like an unbelieving soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers? etc "

I'm not saying no one can do anything good. Clearly, good things do happen. The doctrine of total depravity refers to your moral inability to choose that which you do not truly desire. Like Paul says in Romans 3, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one".

It could not be any clearer. I do not deny that the believer believes and accepts Jesus as his savior. The verses you quoted on that are very clear as well. The Calvinist position only ADDS to that formula by asserting that GOD is the one who awakens our souls for us to do those things. It takes nothing away from your formula at all.

Please answer the questions I raised in this post and the 2 previous ones. Don't avoid it. It would be a subtle form of idolatry for us to credit our works over and above the real worker, author, and perfecter of our faith if that may be the case. Thus, it is important that we discuss these things and get it right.


Thinkaboutit77 6 years ago

I'm not going back and forth with you. If God withholds His grace from some and He gives it to others that is called "Selective Salvation" because He would be showing respect of persons (showing favortism) which He doesn't do with regards to salvation, maybe with service (i.e. men ought to fill the role of Pastor not women etc) but not with salvation.

Go read that article I told you about on Selective Salvation" because that is what you are saying that God does:

http://biblehelp.org/selsalv.htm and read up on "Selective Salvation".

"Thus, it is important that we discuss these things and get it right." No it seems that all you want to do is be proven right so you're not open and you won't convince me either so leave it at that.

Email the author of that "Selective Salvation" article at that website I gave you if you need more help properly understanding God's sovereignty and mankind's free will/responsibility. Or go watch Dave Hunt's "What Love Is This?" DVD and then go to www.Thebereancall.org and email them your questions on Calvinism.

Take care


Theophany profile image

Theophany 6 years ago

"No it seems that all you want to do is be proven right so you're not open and you won't convince me either so leave it at that."

The goal of reasoning is to end up with the truth. If you don't allow debate, you're the one not being open. This is how sheep are led astray. It's when the people in power do not allow others to challenge their reasoning. Please don't use this card on HubPages. You clearly wrote an article to debate a topic. I'm just giving readers the other side of the coin.

I've read the link and many others like it. And still, I have yet to hear an answer for the questions I posed to you. If your position is true, it must be able to withstand the criticisms. I suggest you scroll up and reread what I posted. Especially read what I said about free will. You accuse me of not understanding free-will correctly. At least tell me how I misunderstood it. I think my explanation above regarding free will is accurate, is it not?

As for the passages that have the words "all men" which Arminians frequently use, you have to look at the context. The words "all men" do not necessarily always mean "every person on the face of the planet". Take for example a few passages that contain the same words "all men" but cannot possibly mean "every person on the face of the planet":

John 13:35

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I'm sure not every person on the face of the planet knew that they were his disciples. It is possible, but I doubt the phrase "all men" necessitates us to think that the disciples love for each other is infallible to that effect.

Acts 2:17

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people."

The Spirit will dwell in all people? Even those who are not born again? Surely not.

Acts 22:14-15

"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Clearly, Paul did not have geographical access to all men. Rather, "all men" would most likely refer to Paul's calling to reach all ethnic groups, not discriminating between Jews and Gentiles.

Isaiah 66:16

"For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men"

I doubt God will execute judgment with fire and his sword on his people.

Reading Scripture out of its immediate context and the context of the Bible as a whole will put you in trouble. Like I said in a previous comment, Calvinism doesn't take away anything from the Arminians. It only adds to it. What precedes the human decision to believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior is a spiritual rebirth that allows the believer to see and cherish the living God.


Jay 6 years ago

Submit your questions to www.thebereancall.org. I've written what I've written. The objects of wrath are those angels (who don't have free will by the way) who joined Satan in his rebellion and turn their backs on God. He is fitting (preparing) them for destruction as they surely are obejects of His wrath. Also those that God foreknew would not choose to be saved are also objects of His wrath. They are fitted (prepared) for destruction because by rejecting Christ they are certainly not fitted or prepared for Heaven. So if they're not prepared for Heaven, since there's only one other place to go (i.e. Hell) then they are prepared for Hell. By rejecting Christ they have prepared themselves for Hell whereas those that have accepted Christ have prepared themselves for Heaven. But God didn't prevent them from coming to Christ by withholding His grace from them for that is "selective salvation" and the God of the Bible doesn't practice that sort of favortism. "There is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus" Romans 8:1. But certainly I'm sure you would agree that there is wrath or condemnation for those fallen angels and humans who've willfully rejected Christ.

If that doesn't answer your "objects of wrath fitted (prepared) for destruction" then I suggest you email your questions to Dave Hunt at www.thebereancall.org.


Thinkaboutit77 profile image

Thinkaboutit77 6 years ago Author

Also just to add something you said:

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." The Spirit will dwell in all people? Even those who are not born again? Surely not.

Luke 2:10 says, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." In Luke 2:10 we see that the birth of JEsus shall be good tidings of great joy..to all people. So is that a lie? No, good tidings will be OFFERED to all people but that doesn't mean that all people will accept it. Just like in the verse you gave, God will pour out (offer) His Holy Spirit to all people but obviously not everyone will allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, and allow the Holy Spirit to fill them. But God was right, He would pour out His Spirit to all people but He wouldn't be freely accepted by all people.

Finally you quoted "Isaiah 66:16 "For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men"

I doubt God will execute judgment with fire and his sword on his people."

If you doubt that you need to reread Revelation 20 where Christ will judge the lost at the Great White Throne Judgment with fire (the lake of fire). Also reread 1st Cor 3:11-15 where in context it speaks of those with a foundation laid in Christ (the saved). And it says Christ will judge the fruit (or works) of His people (the saved) "by fire".

Again any other question, go to www.thebereancall.org, they have written far more on this subject than I have. Happy New Year


Theophany profile image

Theophany 6 years ago

Jay, read Romans 9 in its context. You're making the same mistake as Thinkaboutit77. The context of Romans 9 clearly shows Paul dealing with individual human destinies. Paul is grieving over the fact that his fellow Jewish brothers are "lost". Here's verses 2-5, but I highly suggest you read the whole chapter.

"I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

There is no indication whatsoever in the passage that he has fallen angels in mind. Don't impose your doctrine into the text. We need to develop our doctrine systematically by carefully studying the text.

Thinkaboutit77, you said: "good tidings will be OFFERED to all people but that doesn't mean that all people will accept it. Just like in the verse you gave, God will pour out (offer) His Holy Spirit to all people but obviously not everyone will allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, and allow the Holy Spirit to fill them."

So are you saying that ULTIMATELY, our salvation depends on us? The reason you are saved - and my neighbor is not - is because you were somehow more intelligent, or more wiser, or more righteous than he? Somehow you awakened yourself to make the right decision in choosing Christ?

You make the Holy Spirit sound like a very ineffective one. Indeed, He IS an ineffective one if He cannot accomplish what you're saying He intended to accomplish. Again, I ask my hypothetical question (and I want you to answer this question too): What if NO ONE came to their senses, believed, and repented to receive salvation after Jesus died and resurrected? Did Jesus die in vain? Was Jesus merely a POTENTIAL savior, and not an ACTUAL savior? Throughout sacred Scripture, I find a God who manifests his omnipotence by ACTUALLY saving people He wills. He doesn't leave it to THEIR decisions so that they may boast. Salvation belongs to the Lord alone. If he intends to save you, He will give you a new heart to believe and receive Him. You can't give yourself a new heart no more than a broken vessel can fill itself up with water.


Hell N0 6 years ago

He was an evil man who taught some horrific doctrines just like most christian churches continue to do.


Steve Weber 6 years ago

I would like to address "Theophany's" points.

Firstly, the Grace that leads unto salvation has appeared unto ALL men (not "some"). I find it hard to believe how Calvinists can try and make a distinction between the grace that leads unto salvation and "irresistible Grace" That's really splitting hairs.

Secondly, does not 1 John 2:2 say crystal clearly that Jesus Christ was a propitiation for "not our sins only, BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"? This clearly distinguishes the sins of the current believers from those of the rest of the world, YET INCLUDES BOTH.

Thirdly, to suggest if, hypothetically, "no one would repent" is to hypothetically that there was no Church born at Pentecost, which would imply that there would not be any one to preach the Gospel. Romans 10:14 says How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?, And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" To suggest the possibility of "no one repenting" is to equally imply that there would not be a "Great Commission", and the Bible CLEARLY indicates that there WAS a Great Commission. If no one else repented except for those who Jesus personally commissioned in Matthew 28:19, then Jesus STILL did not die in vain, since Jesus's death saved the souls of those whom He personally commissioned.

this should get you started . . .


Van 5 years ago

Overall, I liked this article and back and forth comments.

I too believe that the so-called "doctrines of grace" are not biblical, but spring forth from the invention of man.

I wish to address one of the arguments for "Unconditional Election" put forth by Theophany based on Romans Chapter 9.

My first observation is God does as He pleases, and He could choose folks for salvation unconditionally or conditionally. And He can chose folks for other purposes conditionally or unconditionally, i.e based on some content of the person's character or not. To assert that God always unconditionally elects or conditionally elects cannot be supported logically, since God does as He pleases.

What Paul is teaching in Romans 9:6-13, is that God's election of the children of the promise, was not based on being a biological descendant of Abraham, nor based on the actions of those chosen. Therefore, Paul concludes, it (God's election for His purpose) does not depend upon the man who wills to be chosen or the man who runs (does works to earn election) but upon God who can choose whoever He purposes to choose.

Then the next point in Paul's argument addresses the lame excuse, if God has hardened our hearts, how can He find fault. Paul does not address whether God has hardened the hearts of all, because that "total depravity" view is so far out in left field as to not enter his argumentation. Rather, Paul addresses the idea of judging God, finding fault with God, and making up excuses for godless behavior. Paul simply says we are the clay and should accept the right of the potter to either chose us for His purpose or not.

Next lets consider who are the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. Every person was made a sinner because of the disobedience of Adam, so we are all vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction. So logically, then the vessels of mercy are those God has chosen for mercy from among not only Jews but also Gentiles. And how did they attain righteousness? Not by birth or works. But the righteousness which is by faith. So Paul is teaching that God chooses believers whose faith He credits as righteousness.

Bottom line, Romans Chapter 9 teaches God's conditional election based on God who knows our hearts, crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness!


Contend. 4 years ago

1. First of all, Calvin did not invent Calvinism. Calvinism, especially the five points of Calvinism, were actually conceived at the Council of Dort as a response to the five points of Arminianism which actually came first.

2. Calvin completed (or continued depending on your view) the Reformation. The Reformation is not a single act, or a single person's actions or a single movement. The Reformation really began with Jan Hust who was a Czech theologian who was excommunicated and killed. The Reformation is a time period that both Luther and Calvin were involved with and part of.

3. Yes, Calvin took a lot of what he believed from Augustine. However, as I previously said, Calvinism was not invented by Calvin, and, while Calvin quite likely would be a Calvinist, he likely would not affirm all five points. Also, Augustine was not a Roman Catholic, Augustine was a Catholic. The distinction of Roman Catholicism is first of all, largely an English distinction and nothing more, and second of all, only came about after the Papacy moved back to Rome from France centuries after Augustine lived. Augustine is a Catholic because Catholic is derived from the Greek word that means universal. The Roman Catholic church is largely derived from the Reformation to distinguish it from the Catholic church, which encompasses all Christians. It is, therefore, not contrary for a Reformed theologian to draw from Augustine because Augustine lived prior to the present form of Catholicism and held beliefs most similar to those of present Protestants.


Bill 4 years ago

Very well put. Thanks for the ammo, but I'll shoot in love. God Bless you.


Kasem 4 years ago

I was almost led into the believing Calvinism. But I really sat down to medidate on it. Would God force people to be saved? Only the elect to be saved? But in His word, "He would have all to be saved'. I thank God for your putting forth this page to shed some light and truth on what Calvinism is really about. I believe the fifth point however is mized up; it should rather be "Presevation" instead of "Persevering". Grace and Peace.


Ralph 4 years ago

to be sure, no-one knows how it all works. There are verses in the Bible that supports both sides. Anyone who says they know exactly what the mind of God is in this issue is a dangerous person. Maybe well meaning but dangerous and thinks too much of their own understanding. We seem to have this curious habit of having to know and be able to define without question the mysteries of God. That is where heresy comes into play - when we have to give a definitive answer when God does not supply us with one. We are such sheep.


Tegs 3 years ago

Brothers, here is wisdom: Lets listen to JESUS, not Calvin, ot Luther, not Jan Hus, not Aquinace, not Augustine. JESUS taugh clearly from the Sermon on the Mount till He ascended to Heaven. In Hs teaching and preaching, He never said anything that amounts to the elitist claims of so called theologians. He demonstarted God's love for all. He said "for God so loved the world that He gave His Son that whosoever belives in Him shall not perish but shall have ternal life". JESUS was never an elitist. He was a friend and helper of people whom society and "theologians"call today as "dirty, sinners and scams of the earth". He touched the leper, He never dictated to the leper "believe in Calvinism", He touched the prostitute, He never said to her "believe in Lutheranism", He freed the demon-possessed, He never said to the enslaved "accept the doctrins of Sovereign Grace Ministry, or Ligonier Ministry etc". The division, split, segregation, doctrina bickering andheadche in the world is the confused and arrogant mid of so called Western Theologians who by very attitude eltitist and exclsive. They wished God hated certain people just as they hate peope. You now them by teir fruit. European people's subjugation and ownersip of people in Africa an torturing them a slaves condemened by God, quoting from the Bible to prove suppot their wish , is the fruit of arrogant, militant, selfish, proud, elitist "western theologians". God never hates anybody. He loves everybody. He does not condoned the sin of nybody. He freely forgives lovingly and mercifully the sins of genuine repentants. I hae never seen so called Calvinistic evangeical in Europeor North America with a gentle, loving, compassionate, graceful, humble, inclusive, heart. They are altogether arrogant. They use words such as "Providence" did this, "Providence" did that, because God is toofar from their heart. Calvinism is a cancer. Western "theolgians/misionaries" have sadlypolluted the world with this demoniac doctrine. They have got Paul' letters wrong, they twisted it it. Listen to Jesus, and follow Jesus, and read Bible, don't follow Calvin or Luther, or the Pop of Rome and his word wide chidren or Angliscanism, or Methodism, or Southern Baptist or Northern Baptist or Middle Baptist if there is one, Or Grace Baptist, or any of the denominations,; don't read Calvin's so called "Institutes of Christian Religion", it is not Christian, it is Insttitutes of the Karman/Devil's Religion. Calvin Read the dctrins of Karma translated from Sanscrit. Hindu Cast Systm was part of Calvins inpiration behind his formulations of doctrins. Dont read Grudem's Systematic Theology, or anyof Ligonier Ministry's money-making products, John Piper's "Desiring God", Alpha & Omega Ministries nor any of the Hypo-Calvinists products. They are altogether the message of confusion snt around the world by the inspiration of the Devil teaching false Gospel which Paul himself forewarned, that after he had gone, many would rise to teach the devil's doctrin in the cover of men's clevr tactics, writing skills and oratory. Gullible people follow men simply because these men have PhD, are called CEO, Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor, Presbyterian Leader, Reverend, Bishop, Archbishop, Pop, Father etc. Jesus said do not be called "Father" or Rabb" etc (Matthew 23) Titles are dangerous and unbiblical. People idolise so called Pastors as the Roman Catholocs idolise the Pop. No, no, no, worship God and God alone, the Father TheSone and The Holy Spirit. Don't read Grudem's Systematic Theolgy tht talks about so called "Election/Predestination". God never elects anyone to save or condemn, people are saved just because they believe in the Only Saviour Jesus Christ's work on the cross, whih is open for all to believe and be saved. Not everyone is a believer obviously. People have different heart and character, some are kind, some are cruel, some are compassionate, some are greedy and stooped into selfishness, some are genrous and kind etc. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, Belive in the LOrd Jesus Christ, all of you, and you shall be saved. Receive Him in your heart and follow Him ad Him alone. Stop arguig about thes demons inspired, clever sounding men's theologies. Look to Jesus. God of the Bible is different from the god of Calvin and all his followers. Show love to one aother, stop hating and categorising people by their skin colour, language etc. Calvinism followers divided up the world and introduced racism in churches and wider society by twisting th Bible sayng God condemend Ham, he then became black, then descendant of Afrianpople. What a nonesens, It is all demioniac. Moses wasn't "white". Hemarried Etiopian. Jesu wasn't "white" He was born with a death threat on His Head by theEuropean Herod, Jesus became refugee in Africa. He fit very well with people. Stop making exclusive, elitist doctrin, your god is Calvinist who hate people. God who revealed Himself in Jesus loveseveryhuman kind because He created every human kind in His image. Demon-inspired people teach division, orruption an pervertion. They twst the Bible. Jesus is Lord and Saviour of all human kind who put their trust in Him. Greedy nd selfish Calvinists don' want anyone to be saved, apart from hemselves. Greedy, slfish and arrogant who want to commericalise the Word of God. Thank God that He has not given the mandate to spread the Word of God toEuropeas eclusivly. Go ives His Word to anyone who truly beliver and follo Him. Your skinlur doesn't matter to God, it matters only to the insular and hate-filled, exclsuive European and North American so called evangelicals and Calvinists. There is so much coldness in their heart, deadness in their worship. Simply because they do not have the loving Holy Spiritin their heart. They ar epuffed up with the pride of "theolgical knowledge" it a flse knowledge. Knowledge that comes from God cause youto rever God, to fear God and ive a ife of love towards all humankind. Repent and turn to God. Man can be said here about th demoniac Calvisim and its influences around the the world over the last five to six hundred years up to now. There is everything wrong with "western theolgiansand scholars". The dreadful Darwinism is western, Calvinism is wester, all the Baptist types are western, Anglicanism is western, homosexuality s western, what a headache! Calvinism is a cancer. Repent and turn to God for forgiveness of your sins for making and portraying a false and monsterous image of the loving, compassinate and merciful God of the Bible- Creator of the universe.


Thinkaboutit77 profile image

Thinkaboutit77 3 years ago Author

Thanks for posting. Now you said, "Anyone who says they know exactly what the mind of God is in this issue is a dangerous person." So you're saying that YOU know for sure that "to be sure, no-one know it all works". You know for sure that nobody knows for sure?

Are you sure?

Doesn't this claim by you make you the "dangerous person" you warn everyone else about?


Mary 3 years ago

I can testify that i was dead in sin and did not known it .never read a bible did not own a bible ,thought I was a good person . And I was dead wrong! ! Did not go to any church why would i ? On may 25 2010 around. 11:00 am But God, who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us . Even when we were dead in sin hath quickened us together with Christ By grace ye are save;


Ceegen profile image

Ceegen 3 years ago from Maine, USA

Both Luther and Calvin can be disproved just by quoting one bible verse. Both Luther and Calvin made famous anti-Semitic quotes, which were written down that we have even today.

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" - 1st John ch4, v20.

How can they love God if they don't love Jews? If we say we hate anyone, we are liars if we say we love God, and that's biblical.

God bless.


jrod 3 years ago

In your gospel presentation at the end, I read nothing about repentance. Repentance means changing ones mind. If you really think about ones mind, it is the control center of everything. Your actions, your will, your thoughts, etc... So if there is no burden or understanding of total depravity apart from Christ, there is no salvation! Basically what you have is someone asking God to come into their world as a cherry on top of a not so bad life! Upon hearing the true gospel one will fall on his face and surrender to the Lordship of Christ or run and deny it. Regeneration will take place because of the work of Christ, and one will continue to grow in grace, one will continue to deepen in your repentance, one will continue to deepen in their faith and little by little you will be transformed into the image of Jesus Christ.


Brian 2 years ago

Revelation 17:8.

When we talk about free will, we bring our own bias into the discussion. The Bible clearly mentions terms like predestined, foreordained, and elect .. I don't see "free will" in there.


sandpalm 2 years ago

Free will starts in Genesis 2:9, 2:15, 3:6, 3:13-15, Matthew 26:39, 2 Timothy 3-1-3, 3:10-15, 4:1-5, 1 Peter 2-13-17.

Predestination has God fighting, judging Himself in every aspect of existence. Rape, murder, beheading, wars, ruthless brutal suffering of wars, drug addicted babies, virtually every horrific evil God created and fights against. So as I understand Calvinism/predestination God created Satan and Evil for His own pleasure. This is Not the God of the Holy Bible nor the God I worship and serve. Free will is one of the most precious gifts God blesses us with. I love Jesus because He did the work on the cross to save all mankind and loved me first. My free will love is my choice as my humble request asking Jesus to save me. This is not a work on my part. How much more meaningful and precious is love that is by choice, desire and sincerity than "love" that is programmed, instructed or "forced"? Maybe I am beung to simple in my view and understanding, it is what my heart, mind and spirit tell me by the powet and wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

May God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit guide us all with true wisdom, mercy and love.

sandpalm


sandpalm 2 years ago

Free will starts in Genesis 2:9, 2:15, 3:6, 3:13-15, Matthew 26:39, 2 Timothy 3-1-3, 3:10-15, 4:1-5, 1 Peter 2-13-17.

Predestination has God fighting, judging Himself in every aspect of existence. Rape, murder, beheading, wars, ruthless brutal suffering of wars, drug addicted babies, virtually every horrific evil God created and fights against. So as I understand Calvinism/predestination God created Satan and Evil for His own pleasure. This is Not the God of the Holy Bible nor the God I worship and serve. Free will is one of the most precious gifts God blesses us with. I love Jesus because He did the work on the cross to save all mankind and loved me first. My free will love is my choice as my humble request asking Jesus to save me. This is not a work on my part. How much more meaningful and precious is love that is by choice, desire and sincerity than "love" that is programmed, instructed or "forced"? Maybe I am being too simple in my view and understanding, it is what my heart, mind and spirit tell me by the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

May God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit guide us all with true wisdom, mercy and love.

sandpalm


sand 2 years ago

God foreknows, He set all the rules/laws in place thus the inorganic and organic are subject to them but may defy or disobey in many cases, not, for example, gravity, although we may worship a false god, lie, commit adultery, you see the examples.

So since God cannot lie nor look upon sin, (Jesus upon becoming sin cried "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"), how can He have created sin and fight it daily. Seems to be quite a conundrum we have here. Calvinism does not appear to be Biblical as I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong. Peace, wisdom and love to you all.

sandpalm

P.S. if God preordains everthing, thoughts, words, deeds, why do we need the 10 Commandments or the Gospel Jesus told us to preach unto all the world?

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