It Takes Faith to be An Atheist?

Introduction

One of the common misconceptions about atheism I hear repeatedly endlessly on the lips of theists is that it takes more FAITH to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian (or any other religion). In this hub I want to discuss why this claim holds no weight whatsoever, makes no sense and is extremely frustrating to those of us involved in the atheist versus theist debate. Along the way I will discuss the nature of extraordinary beliefs, disbelief and common themes in discussion and debate on the subject.

This hub will explain why the title of this book is really really stupid...
This hub will explain why the title of this book is really really stupid...

Ye of Little Faith

In a recent hub I explained the way religiously based faith works. Faith is the evidence of things not seen according to the Apostle Paul, and the “substance” of things hoped for. In other terms faith is a place-holder for actual solid evidence, a belief that is held despite its controversial or unproved nature. Unlike beliefs based on evidence those beliefs based on this empty place-holder (faith) can exist in the face of insurmountable implausibility.

Furthermore faith is seen as being able to be quantified and be of high or low quality. Those with a strong unwavering faith are said to be able to summon God's favor with prayer much more consistently than those of little faith. The Bible seems to suggest that the faith of a child is also very strong. Rather than abandon faith when it is proven wrong faith is meant to be STRENGTHENED by its own failures. When a prayer or invocation of the supernatural fails the cure prescribed isn't to doubt the supernatural but instead to believe THAT MUCH MORE FERVENTLY. In this way faith can be very self-deceptive – if the supernatural fails than you're just not BELIEVING hard enough and there must be some doubt within you to stamp out before God will come through for you.

This emphasis on the power of faith lead to religious debate even as the Bible was being put together with various opinions as to what was more important, faith or good deeds, or both.

Beliefs based on good evidence, sound argument or solid logic are not the same as those based on faith. In several online discussions I've had with theists the discussion has started out with the claim that they DO have evidence for God. When this evidence is probed and proved to be nothing of the sort the theist will then retort with “well of course, it's not all just about evidence, it's about faith as well”.

This comment reveals the fundamental self-deception that is happening here. This person wasn't convinced of God's existence by evidence or argument, rather, like most, they were either indoctrinated or had an emotionally compelling conversion experience (perhaps both). Only later, post-conversion, did they become concerned with defending these beliefs and expelling doubts. At this point, with the false emotions of the conversion likely wearing off, their reasons for actually believing have run dry, now it is up to faith alone (and perhaps some more emotions and “religious experiences”) to help them hold on to a belief they have no good reason to hold onto.

If you have good reasons to believe than you don't need, or have, faith.

Do Christians have faith that Zeus, Krishna and Allah DON'T exist? No, they simply have faith that their God DOES. Monotheists are atheists in respect to all Gods except for their own.
Do Christians have faith that Zeus, Krishna and Allah DON'T exist? No, they simply have faith that their God DOES. Monotheists are atheists in respect to all Gods except for their own. | Source
Saying it takes faith to be an atheist is like saying it takes faith to not believe in Santa Claus.
Saying it takes faith to be an atheist is like saying it takes faith to not believe in Santa Claus.

Disbelief, the Asantaclausist

Disbelief, The Asantaclausist

The claim that it requires faith to disbelieve in God is a lot like the claim that it requires faith to disbelieve in Santa Claus, fairies or the Easter Bunny. Let us examine a hypothetical conversation between two “children”, one who is a believer in Santa Claus (Sarah), and another who isn't (Billy).

Sarah: “Look at all the wonderful gifts that Santa has bestowed upon us this Christmas morning.”

Billy: “Oh please, don't start with that Santa business again!”

Sarah: “How else do you explain all the good things we have before us? Look at this keyboard, and this doll can walk AND talk. Are you going to tell me these presents all just poofed here magically?”

Billy: “No, I'm saying they got here naturally, there's no reason to jump to supernatural explanations.”

Sarah: “All of this just coming out of nothing? Sounds supernatural to me.”

Billy: “I didn't say it came from nothing, I'm just not convinced of this Santa Claus existence, or his involvement with the presents. You're the one claiming magic, a magical sleigh, magical sack, magical elves. There's probably a natural explanation, our parents probably put those presents here.”

Sarah: “Yeah right. Our parents couldn't build a doll that walks and talks, let alone your toy helicopter. These are WAY too complex for a natural explanation!”

Billy: “I'm not saying our parents built them, it's got to be a bit more complex than that.”

Sarah: “Well, what evidence do you have that Santa doesn't exist?”

Billy: “That isn't how it works-”

Sarah: “I'm waiting.”

Billy: “Well none really, but I bet if we did some investigating we might find some.”

Sarah: “I don't need to investigate, I don't need evidence, I can feel the spirit of Father Christmas in my heart. He calls me to be good for goodness sake, just like it says in the song, and rewards me with blessings of gifts. I just can't imagine being like you, it takes so much faith to believe that all this beauty came about without Santa, that it all just came out of nothing.”

Billy: “I NEVER SAID IT CAME OUT OF NOTHING! You haven't given a single good reason for believing this Santa stuff!”

Sarah: “I'm done talking to you, all you asantaclausists just become angry and rude so quickly.”

So who has faith here? The obvious answer is that it's Sarah. While Billy isn't quite sure of the answer to where the presents came from he knows enough to discount the illogical and incredibly implausible explanation that a magical man in a magical sleigh delivered them to every house on the same night. The miraculous explanation doesn't make any sense and requires the suspension of doubt and logic to hold on to. When an extreme or supernatural claim is made, one which seems miraculous or would overturn everything we know in a given field, doubting or disbelieving the claim requires no evidence or faith to do.

There are many examples which demonstrate this same point, including Bertrand Russell's famous teapot analogy. If you claim that Bigfoot is living in your toolshed I am more than justified to dismiss your claim without evidence to disprove it. If it didn't work that way scientists would spend nearly all of their time disproving supernatural or pseudoscientific claims yet the vast majority of scientists don't bother. It is true that in recent years many scientists have joined in with the skeptical community to voice their opinions, folks like Neil Degrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are among the most outspoken.

Also worth nothing is Sarah's demand that an explanation be provided or else she will resort to believing in Santa. Often times theists will demand that atheists explain the more mysterious aspects of life, the Universe, and everything or else they will simply go on believing. The fact of the matter is that we human beings lack explanations for a great deal of phenomenon and that good NATURAL explanations for certain phenomenon are not always readily available especially to laypersons. The implication here is that somehow a supernatural explanation is superior to withholding judgment or resorting to default disbelief in absence of a natural one. Sarah feels that, since Billy cannot provide evidence to support the current natural explanation (that the parents were responsible), her belief in the Santa explanation is therefore supported. Absence of evidence for a natural explanation is not, itself, evidence for a supernatural one.

In discussions on theism the Big Bang is a great example of this. Theists sometimes claim that atheists “believe in nothing” and that we believe the Universe just popped into existence out of nothing. This misconception has only been bolstered by modern physicists some of whom now believe that the Universe did self-generate from “nothing”, though their version of nothing isn't nothing is the abstract sense most of us think of it. Not all atheists believe that the Universe came from “nothing”. It may be that the origins of the Universe are unknowable, the question unanswerable, but merely because we may be left with a mystery does not excuse inserting Gods, magic or other absurdities that serve only as place-holder explanations.

Some atheists would agree with this, others would reject it outright. Most would agree with me when I say that no one knows anything for sure about the time before the Big Bang, let alone knowing whether or not the concept of BEFORE even works here.
Some atheists would agree with this, others would reject it outright. Most would agree with me when I say that no one knows anything for sure about the time before the Big Bang, let alone knowing whether or not the concept of BEFORE even works here.

The Vanishing God

Let's go back to our two hypothetical children for this, an example of how theists sometimes shift the goal-posts and won't accept a shred of evidence that might actually disprove their beliefs and how when they do give ground to said evidence their God becomes a more and more nebulous idea.

Billy: “Here, look, I've found some evidence, it's a fake white beard and Santa hat, I found it in Dad's closet!”

Sarah: “This doesn't disprove Santa! Look at this old book I found in the attic, it was written before Mom and Dad were even born and it mentions Santa! It even says it was written by Santa and contains his words and teachings.”

Billy: “But it's just a book, like any other.”

Sarah: “So, YOUR evidence is just a stupid beard, mine helps me be a better person, and is read by millions.”

Billy: “It claims to be written by Santa, but here you can clearly see the publisher's information in the front of the book. This was written by people, not Santa!”

Sarah: “But it says Santa is good and kind and merciful and that if I'm a good girl I'll get rewarded! It's clearly the proof that Santa delivered these presents.”

Billy: “But you can't use the book to prove itself! That's circular reasoning, it's like using Little Red Riding Hood to prove the Big Bad Wolf exists!”

Sarah: “How dare you compare my beliefs to that, that, that FAIRY TALE!”

Billy: “This beard clearly means that Dad was the one who dressed up as Santa Claus, it wasn't REALLY him.”

Sarah: “So what? That doesn't prove anything! Santa could still exist!"

Billy: “And look here, I found the receipts from the store where Mom and Dad bought the presents.”

Sarah: “Not all the presents are on there though! How do you explain the candy canes in your stockings or the sweater that you got!”

Billy: “If Mom and Dad bought some of the presents isn't it possible that they bought all of them?”

Sarah: “Of course not! How do you know Santa didn't put that receipt there to test your faith? How do we even know its Moms and Dads? Your story is SO full of holes, I don't know how you believe any of it! Plus, the cookies were gone this morning, explain THAT skeptic!”

Billy: “Dad might have eaten the cookies, he loves cookies.”

Sarah: “I've seen Dad's bite marks, these are totally different, and besides the milk was gone too and you KNOW Dad is lactose intolerant, so ha, Santa is real after all and you haven't disproved it!”

Billy: “Also, I watched a documentary, men have been to the North Pole and there's nothing there, no workshop, no Santa, so where is he?”

Sarah: “Santa is more a feeling, he's like a spirit, or maybe his workshop is just invisible to those that don't believe. Why don't you ask him yourself? You know you can write him letters right? He wants to have a relationship with you. I asked him for my dolly and that's what I got.”

Billy: “I saw that letter he sent back to you. His handwriting looks an awful lot like Moms.”

etc

In a discussion sometimes a theist will move the goal-posts after a piece of evidence or line or reasoning they purpose turns out to be a dead-end. If they propose an argument for God that is shown to be unconvincing to the skeptic or attribute a phenomenon or event to God that can be shown to have better natural explanations God is moved farther away and becomes harder to define. For the last few centuries theists have been forced to give ground as more and more natural explanations have been found that make their God more and more unlikely.

Bigfoot was in your toolshed, but when I opened the door it was empty and you said, “well of course he's invisible dummy!”

God used to be in Heaven, which was a Kingdom in the sky, in which he sat on a throne. Now God is in some other dimension or spiritual plane of existence, nebulous and unreachable even with the fabled Tower of Babel the Bible speaks of. We've been to Olympus, we've been to the North Pole, there was no Zeus, there was no Santa Claus. We've looked under the bed and in the closet, no monsters. Some Christians have now pushed their God back to be almost as nebulous and useless as the Prime Mover of deism, a God whose gap in which to exist is the enigmatic beginning of the Universe.

Gods were once the makers of thunder, the creators of life from dirt and dust, the very forgers of the Earth, firmament, sun and stars. Now they are vanishing, pushed back by the search for real satisfying answers to the questions we've always pondered about as a species. Some mystery will be lost in the process, and of course, faith will be shaken and shed, but in the end we will be in possession of the one truly invaluable thing, truth itself. And in the process of pursuing that truth we will find many more mysteries and oddities to be interested and intrigued by, all without needing to invoke monsters, magic or even gods.

Conclusions

Intellectual honesty and understanding how science and skepticism relate is important in forming a realistic model of reality in our minds. As an atheist there are many mysteries left unanswered and many doors that remain open. Being a skeptic and an atheist does not mean closing your mind to possibilities, even implausible ones, but it also means balancing the desire to believe things that you want to believe with the desire to believe things that are likely to be true. There's no use self-deceiving yourself into believing something just because its appealing on some level or has a bit of anecdotal evidence in its favor.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Instead it is seen as alright that such claims, which should require MORE evidence than their mundane counter-parts, often require no evidence at all, but rather the gullibility and emptiness of faith. Atheism is a null hypothesis, a rejection of an extraordinary claim that has failed to meet the burden of proof, and as such simply cannot be bolstered or supported by any form of faith.

More by this Author


Comments 84 comments

Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

You are not going to get intellectual honesty from a theist. It is extremely important that they rationalize their faith.

On the one hand they claim faith is believing with no evidence and this is what god wants.

BUT - they know in their private mind that this is RIDICULOUS! and will therefore attack any non belief as the same as their belief - therefore an atheist has not given any more thought, rationale or reason to non belief than they have. Therefore we are on a par. Therefore we are hypocrites and prove god's word that atheists are fools with no morals.

This is why their religion causes so many fights.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

Great hub, excellent points.

Mark, one thing that many of us take for granted is looking at it through the eyes of the believer, empathizing with their desire to believe in something more, but more importantly with the fact that someone, whether or not they are right or wrong will defend their viewpoint with increasing intensity depending on the opposition.

What I mean to say is that if someone attacks your belief you are going to defend your belief no matter what they say (emotion right or wrong on either side). Everyone is guilty of this. How you approach someone who you find wrong is you ask them questions and get them to question themselves. I think this is important for all of us to do when confronting the religious because we all tend to ridicule those who we know or believe are wrong rather than empathizing with their plight.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

Sorry - I disagree. Ridicule is appropriate for some one who makes ridiculous claims. It it not possible to reason with them.

I don't ridicule them because they are wrong - I ridicule them for being ridiculous. There is absolutely no question you can pose that will make them question themselves. I have tried.

The bible starts out attacking non believers and believers of other faiths. The believers are not ""defending depending on the opposition." Attack is their default position.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

If that were the case then people like myself would not have become nonbelievers. Many atheists like myself were once religious, now how do you make a religious person an atheist? By ridicule? That's just as ridiculous as your default position. Hypocrisy.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Faith is a cat. All cats can see in the dark. Therefore Faith can see in the dark. Unfortunately, Faith is blind which disproves that all cats can see in the dark. And yet the claim is still made that all cats can see in the dark.

Human faith is like a blind cat trying to see in the dark because someone once declared that all cats can see in the dark. The claim should have been that most cats can see in the darkness provided there is actually some light to help them see.

God can perform miracles, Santa can perform miracles, Saints can perform miracles, but 'normal' humans can only have faith that this is so. It's a very sad circle.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 4 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks for the comment! I agree that empathy is important, especially with those of us who used to believe, we've been there and know what it's like. But I also think that ridicule does have its place, not so much in making fun of the people but in poking fun at the beliefs in order to show why they are silly. Case in point is the two discussions regarding Santa Claus in my hub here, many would find it insulting to have their religious beliefs compared to a belief in Santa, but I'm not insulting any person by doing the comparing though I may be insulting the beliefs that those people hold.

Even just attacking the beliefs, without attacking the believer, can be construed as a "personal attack" by jumpy knee-jerk-reactionary theists but hopefully after that wears off they really think about what was said and whether it makes sense.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

LOL I have ridiculed several people into rethinking their positions. Almost like there is more than one way of dealing with this other than your opinion.

Exactly what made you change your mind in that case? How religious were you?


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

I was a regular church goer. I did question things but I remember two things about this. When I did encounter a nonbeliever, as much as they wanted to ridicule me, I would do the same to them and I would dig my heals in so to speak about changing my mind. You know the saying, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? It's true for believers too. You have to make them want to believe in what is real, how else are they going to abandon their fantasy of salvation and heaven and being close to a god? Science is awesome and real and that is how they will come to you. Believers have to convince you, you shouldn't have to stoop to their level.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

How can you "make" them believe what is real? I don't stoop to their level. I ridicule ridiculous beliefs - and it works. LOL that it was all the non believer's fault for ridiculing them and that is what made the bible say that atheists are fools and will burn in hell for not believing.

But as for the cowardly, the FAITHLESS, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Oh wait...........

You sure you are not still a believer? Because you sound like all the other believers - they are just defending - not attacking. No sirree Bob, the bible teaches love thy fellow.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

In any case - seems like the fact that you were "provoked" into ridiculing people made you realize the worthlessness of your "loving faith"? N'est pas?

Can you reason with these guys do you think?

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/97288?page=103#pos...


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 4 years ago from The English Midlands

Hi :)

Great hub ~ as usual.

You really do write very well ~ and I loved the kids' conversations!

I wrote a hub based in Turek + Geisler's book, a while ago, but concentrating on the subject of morality.

I feel that logic should cause devout people to ask more questions, but they have 'faith' ~ and faith seems to overcome everything else.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

Mark, actually I was in extended talks with a couple people from that forum because of it so, yes, however, there are some people that are so obsessive it's pointless to talk to them. If you have to stoop to ridiculing someone you might as well not talk to them at all. It's pointless and makes you no better than them. Usually when you see me lose my temper I'm pretty much done with you. I mean, seriously, why bother? It's like those creationists telling us that silliness about monkeys turning into humans, we know it doesn't happen like that, but that is how they perceive us... what does it look like when we do it to them? The same thing. The best we can do is try to explain why we don't believe, quote their own Bible, ask them questions, and tell them why we believe evidence trumps faith. Ridicule is another form of hate which is linked with ignorance, ignorance is not just the quality of the religious.

We have to prove that we are more civilized and more moral and more just in being atheists, otherwise what you just said about the contradiction of love in what the Bible teaches makes us look no better. (of course we don't condemn people to eternal damnation for not believing what we believe) but the ridicule for not believing the same as someone else.... you are just like a Christian in that sense.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

I am not more civilized, more moral or more just. How is not ridiculing ridiculous beliefs showing them any such thing? It is not - you are just being holier than thou. I make no such claims to holiness myself. You sure you are not a believer still? Because you have all the hallmarks. LOL

Simple fact is - there is more than one way to tackle this issue. And - sometimes I take your approach. But ridicule has proven more fruitful over the long run because it points their own stick at them. And - as they are acting towards others in a manner they wish to be acted towards...

Odd - when you lost your temper before - it never made you think about why you lost your temper and how worthless your beliefs were?

Science? What does that have to do with it? We all know it is impossible to come back from the dead. I am not going to impress some one who believes in a virgin birth and resurrection from the dead with science.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

When I listen to religionists, and I do, I find the repetition of their folly to be nearly the same word for word between followers. They do not have an original thought in their heads. The same speech is repeated over and over regarding whatever point they are trying to make.

My reaction is to assume that they cannot be de-programmed so I just state my point and leave it at that. I refuse to argue. They can repeat 'Jesus is Love' 5,000 times a day, but it still makes no sense to me.

Stare at them and repeat back to them what they have said, it will be the only thing they understand. I suppose that this is a form of ridicule. But it will shut them up.

Later on, they realize I am an atheist when they believed I was one of them. It makes them feel foolish.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

"We all know it is impossible to come back from the dead." and "Science? What does that have to do with it?" Everything is the answer.

What do you base your ridicule on them with? Your own beliefs are baseless it seems making you no better than them in every way. Science is the study of things that are real. When reality contradicts their fantasy then they must look at what they believe as also being baseless.

Why did I lose my temper? Because I am human and it's frustrating to talk to a brick wall of a person who despite the evidence refuses to think about why their beliefs might be wrong.

I once got into a debate with those people who believe in a hollow earth. Physics totally contradicts their beliefs that the Earth could be hollow and I even posted a video demonstrating why and they not only ignored this they deleted it and called it stupid.... how are you any different than them? You can name call and call someone ridiculous all you want but in the end if you have no basis for this they will only view you as the ridiculous one.

Holier than thou? What does that even mean? That I am saying something true and I know it's true because of what it's based on? As opposed to someone who says something is ridiculous because he says "We all know it's impossible...." How do you know something is possible or impossible? What do you base this on? You could easily say the opposite of anything you say and it's the same thing. Fundamentalism. Personally I believe in truth and reality and anything the evidence shows is true. If you ridicule someone then you are no better than the believer who does the same thing.

I usually get two reactions from people either they think about what I have said or they don't think. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.... what proof do you have that their beliefs are ridiculous?

How am I not a believer in God or the supernatural? Because I believe in what the evidence says about reality. I choose reality not because I am opposed to their fantasy but because their fantasy is proven false by the evidence of my reality. There is no evidence that their fantasy is real.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

You said "We have to prove that we are more civilized and more moral and more just in being atheists," - so I assume you think you are all these things - yes? Holier than thou.

And - no - this is not a reason to not believe in nonsense. You think they will become an atheist by you showing them you are more moral than they are?

Proof that believing in a virgin birth and people coming back from the dead is ridiculous?

Ummmm - You sure you are not still a believer?


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

"so I assume you think you are all these things - yes?" Because I don't need a religion to tell me how to be a good person? Yes. "Holier than thou." Still, I don't know how this makes one holier than though.

"You think they will become an atheist by you showing them you are more moral than they are?" No, but it does show them that being a good person is not based on any religious beliefs in salvation/damnation.

"Proof that believing in a virgin birth and people coming back from the dead is ridiculous?" Only when you know why it can't happen. You could make the claim that it's possible or impossible but what do you base either one on? How is belief in one thing not more ridiculous than not believing in it?

I am a believer in science and reality, not in God....

Now you tell me how you are any better than a religious zealot.

Are you maybe ridiculing their religion because your religion is in a just as baseless antitheism?


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

Weird - you think people who believe in a virgin birth and coming back from the dead don't actually know that it cannot happen? Except in this one special case? Which was a miracle by god?

I don't think I am any better than anyone else. You think making fun of people for believing garbage is immoral and makes me a bad person? You sure you are not a believer?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

I hate to burst your bubbles, gentlemen, but virgin births (hymens are still intact) do actually occur and are medically documented. Also, I have seen many people brought back from the dead.

Every religious claim is just a fanciful way to describe something that is not understood properly. I don't know why "they" don't get that.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

Virgin as in never had sexual relationships? Really - show me the pudding. Same goes for the 3 days dead and buried. LOL


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

Voodoo zombies don't count either because they aren't actually dead.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Ha! I'm sure heavy petting was involved, but not actual penetration. Sperm has the ability to swim upwards and all they need is to get real close. The hymen is not a sealed deal.

People in comas for years who would once have been considered dead have woken (waked?). Most resuscitations don't last that long of course. But the people swear they were dead and 'walking into the light'.

Modern medical miracles are every bit as entertaining as the ones in the bible!


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

Ah - well - had sex then, and comas are not "dead" lol I don't think modern medicine can beat Lazarus out. :D

Good to see AB does have a sense of humor after all - he was giving atheists a bad name............


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

Ha! Being an a-hole and having a sense of humor are two different things.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

That is just your belief. lol Although I see your "rational discussion" with aguasilver didn't get too far. He is a piece of work, that one.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Aguasilver strikes me as a very confused, yet intelligent sort. He lives in a fantasy world. But don't we all?

Oh, look at me, saying semi-nice things about aguasilver! He's a real bother. BTW- he doesn't like me very much or so it seems.


Mark Knowles profile image

Mark Knowles 4 years ago

He doesn't like me at all. Keeps calling me a "Satan Whisperer," - but he is secure in the knowledge that I have commuted an unforgivable sin and will not be joining him for the Party With Jesus.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

Aguasilver is an intellectually dishonest brick wall. He doesn't even grasp the basic logic that proves him wrong and will defend his stupidity no matter what proof you have of his ignorance.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 4 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

agreed


johndnathan profile image

johndnathan 4 years ago from Dallas, Texas. USA

Excellent hub, but I know the truth. I know that Santa Claus will come for me, for us, for everyone who believeth in him. He shall consume our freshly-baked cookies. That's right! Freshly-baked! Store bought is an ABOMINATION! He shall leave us world peace at the foot of the tree; because he is the way, the truth and the jolly one! Do not tempt me with your "facts", dear friend. They are just there to tempt me into a life without Christmas cheer! Ho ho ho, and Santa be with you.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Yeah, in reality, we have the exact same amount of faith as they do. We cannot demonstrate that there is no god but neither can they demonstrate there is a god and when they attack us and make it sound as if god is absolutely true and therefore, atheists are all illogical, it annoys me.

I also hate it when a theist tells me that atheists cannot believe in intelligent design and how intelligent design is true and since the only possibility of this intelligent designer is their god, then their god exists and atheists are in trouble.

It's when theists use debate tactics categorizing atheists on exactly the same level is when I tell the theist that you are absolutely opposed to any meaningful level of conversation whatsoever. I will not glorify you by debating you any further.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

No. It doesn't take faith to disbelieve in something.

"We cannot demonstrate that there is no god"

Most atheists don't claim "THERE IS NO GOD", we simply don't see any evidence for one and thus disbelieve. Disbelieving and making the positive claim that there absolutely isn't a God are two very different things. As an example if you say, "Do you believe in Bigfoot" I would say "No" but that doesn't mean I'm claiming there's no such thing as bigfoot. Bigfoot could still be out there, as could a god, but there's simply no compelling reason to believe in either.


Beth37 2 years ago

I don't believe in Santa Claus. I never have, not even as a small child. I have spent a lifetime *not believing in Santa Claus... interestingly enough, I have never written one hub on Santa Claus. You however, seem to be obsessed with the God of the Bible. I wonder what you hope to gain with the fixation on something you believe to be non-existent. How does one fixate on something that is not real? It would almost seem to me that that is the definition of losing one's mind?


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Beth37, that is not the point here. Why do we seem to fixate on the fact that God (Santa) does not exist? Because a good majority of the people we coexist with insist that we believe and base our life and laws on said nonexistent beings. The United States Constitution clearly states that no law should be established based on religion and that the government shall not get involved in respecting any establishment of religion. Nor shall the government interfere with how someone should practice their religion. Meaning that religion is a private belief and should not be forced on the public or banned from the individual.

Yet, many in government and many public officials would force their particular brand of religion on the rest of us who either believe in some other God(s) or no God at all.

This creates the debate we have here where we atheists must waste our time explaining why we don't believe and why we won't believe. We are constantly pestered by friends and family who are believers that if we don't believe we will receive some sort of punishment in the afterlife and in this life are treated badly by those that feel this way. No human being, so matter what they believe should be treated unfairly.

It goes so far in some circles that people who leave the faith are condemned/ostracised from their community by friends and family. Is that even right? It happens though.

So what do you do when put in this situation?

It's not like we spend our lives doing nothing but explain why God doesn't exist or why we don't believe a God doesn't exist. We have lives outside of this. For example, I am a musician and I also build electronics and I do graphic design and paint as well as work various part time jobs and sometimes work on a film crew.... I also do what can only be described as amateur science, physics and astronomy as well as recently some electrical and chemical engineering. (No I don't make bombs, just chemical rockets)

Yet every so often, more often than I like, I have to explain to people why I don't believe in God, why I don't believe God or anything supernatural exists, and the history and science behind it all.

" How does one fixate on something that is not real? It would almost seem to me that that is the definition of losing one's mind?" This is how we feel about most believers in the supernatural. And just the mere fact that we have to deal with them in our circles of friends and families sometimes drives us crazy.


Beth37 2 years ago

"Yet every so often, more often than I like, I have to explain to people why I don't believe in God, why I don't believe God or anything supernatural exists, and the history and science behind it all."

It seems to me, from this incident, that you don't *have to do anything, but elect to do this on your own.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"How does one fixate on something that is not real"

You've never met a Trekkie? What about a die hard Star Wars fan? And those are the people that KNOW its fiction.

Now imagine a world where people really believed that Yoda and Jar Jar Binks were real and brainwashed children into believing they actually existed. Your profile pic appears to be batgirl, who is entirely fictional, yet you've chosen that image to represent you here. I think you already know damn well how dedicated and passionate some people are when debating things everyone knows are fictional. But this is something much worse, something fictional that people are being indoctrinated to believe is real and while believing a lie rarely leads to positive or comforting results usually the result of believing a lie is negative.

Many of my hubs are related to religion, but not all of them, however it is a subject I both have experience with first hand (I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian) and have researched extensively.


Beth37 2 years ago

I'm a trekkie, though I'm not really Batgirl... see the difference? :)


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Uh, no, Beth37 I don't see the difference. Being a trekkie means you appreciate art (of sorts), NOT being Batgirl is a factual statement. The two do not really compare, like apples and oranges.

What are you really trying to say?


Beth37 2 years ago

Me being Batgirl is a little like a kid believing in Santa Claus. Me being a Trekkie is a fact, whether someone thinks it's delusional or not. It doesn't matter though... I was just playing with words.

All that really matters is; if there is a God, we'd be fools not to get right with Him. I have no doubt that the God of the Bible is true, so when I see someone fixated on a God while saying they don't believe in Him... it makes me wonder if there isn't some doubt in their doubt. It just isn't logical. (See how I brought it back to Star Trek again for our enjoyment?)


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Let's put it another way then, let's say you come to discover that everything you've been taught is true is actually not the truth. What do you do? I was raised a Christian, I was raised that the Bible was true and that God and Jesus were real. The fact is they are not. Why would you want to get right with something that isn't real? Especially a character, God, who is not right, not good but claims to be good. For example, all the people he killed because they were supposedly all sinful and flawed. He killed an entire population, children included. Some verses in the Bible state that you must stone disobedient children, it condones rape, slavery and murder of people who are of different religious beliefs "witches", heretics, etc. In this day and age are you okay with any of this stuff? If you aren't then you are not okay with the Biblical God....Why would anyone be okay with such a monster even if he were real and the creator? If your father was Charlie Manson or Devid Koresh or Adolf Hitler or (name your serial killer) would you want to be okay with them? They basically created you. You may make the claim that Jesus changed all that but the fact is Jesus is also not a real person and was written by people who weren't even of the Jewish faith. And Even if Jesus were God he's still the same person who killed all sorts of people for not being perfect, so a new covenant doesn't change things.

Being a fan like a Trekkie, or a Whovian (I'm a Doctor Who fan so I guess I am a Whovian) or a Star Wars fan is totally different because our fandom doesn't require us to be 100% true to our fandom as the Christian faith supposedly does and being a Christian requires you to believe that the Bible is true while being a Trekkie doesn't require you to think Star Trek is unquestioningly true... see the difference?

There are literally hundreds of different religions, twenty of which are still practiced today, and some far older than the JudeoChristian one, like Hinduism, which is the oldest living religion. Why aren't you trying to be right with Vishnu? If God might be real so might Vishnu. Who do you determine if YOUR religion is true? Faith? Faith doesn't tell you if something is true or not faith only makes you believe in something even if it's NOT true.

Many atheists, like myself, started out just asking the question, what is true? What if what I believe is not true? How do I find out? The answer is evidence. How do you find evidence? The Scientific Method is a good way of looking for evidence, it's so good that it has made everything we have in modern society for which you and I take for granted possible, Clean drinking water, food that lasts weeks instead of hours, medicine, vaccines, cars, computers, air travel, space travel, looking into the cosmos, dating things that are old that we have no idea when it was made or grew, telecommunications, weapons of war, robots, genetics, new chemical compounds, like plastic, kevlar, various metal alloys, atomic energy, electrical energy, steam energy, lasers, manufacturing, geological analysis both here, the moon and on Mars, meteorology, helping people with metal disorders normalize in our society..... Good or Bad, science has done more for our world than religion or your God ever has or could. It has made it possible for large groups of people to work together in our super large society, creating buildings taller than any ever made.... It's how the Egyptians made their pyramids, it's how we discovered the shape of our solar system, the size of our Earth and every object in our solar system, and the age of the known universe. Science doesn't have all the answers and never will but the Bible doesn't have ANY answers thought it will claim to have all the answers and make the claim that it will never change because well hell, it's a book, you can't edit what's wrong with it, that's heresy. That doesn't change that everything the Bible claims is wrong. It's only truth is that it's the what people of the time believed and recorded what they think they saw or experienced as well as some outlandish claims for the future which according to what it says NEVER came to pass..... according to Revelations the end of the world should have happened in the lifetime of the authors of Revelations, so unless they are still alive today, this prophesy was a failure..... There are many reasons why we argue that your God is unbelievable, lack of evidence for his existence, failures in Biblical prophesy, failures in morality, as well as just contradicting reality. Yet people insist that we should believe, repent, get right with God because he might be true.... can you prove that he's true? because "might be true" is not good enough reason to believe, and there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that he could even possibly be true. Why do we argue against the existence of God? Because of people like this who are everywhere, insisting that we 'believe when we don't and can't. Would you believe me, on faith, if I told you that I owned an actual flying unicorn? No, you'd think I was a nut job. Now imagine if everyone around you believed that such animals existed, that aliens were among us and maybe even every person of authority was an alien. Or name your fiction and imagine everyone but you believed this fiction was real. What would you do? Accept it as real because everyone else believed it to be even though you proved that there was no reason to believe it were real? Or would you fight for the truth?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"we'd be fools not to get right with Him"

What makes God the dictator of what is right and wrong for we human beings? Even if we presume that God exists, created humanity and knows what is absolutely morally right and wrong that doesn't give him the right to punish us. Neither does his omnipotence, that's just might makes right. If you have children you don't interject yourself into their adult lives to dish out punishment if they don't do EXACTLY what you would do, or do as you command. No, you let them find their own way, live their own lives, and to some extent judge themselves by their own standards. And how, exactly, would the actions of mortals injure this God in any way?

At any rate there's no evidence that this God, or any Gods, exists.

"it makes me wonder if there isn't some doubt in their doubt"

Only a believer has to be afraid of doubt. I never said that God absolutely couldn't exist, nor do I have to. There is no part of my atheism or doubt which requires me to rule out God's existence entirely to find it an improbable and ridiculous thing to believe in. There is no part of atheism which says I can't change my mind based on new information and evidence, which is the definition of being open-minded.

"It just isn't logical"

Actually it is. I was brainwashed with this stuff as a kid, eventually I rejected it, and now I'm trying to explain why it makes no sense to others who are indoctrinated in the same way I was. I didn't just leave religion behind and then start ignoring all the damage it does.


Beth37 2 years ago

Methinks you both like the sound of your own voice, but there's no wisdom in your words.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

You're the one who commented on my hub.

Methinks you have nothing to offer in rebuttal other than failed attempts at psychoanalysis.


Beth37 2 years ago

Actually, I debate this on a daily basis on the forum (that one, right over there...) I'm sorry you've lost your faith, I hope you find it again. If you do, bring it to me, I'll sew it back on your shoe.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks, I hope you enjoy clapping for your God in order to keep him alive.


Beth37 2 years ago

That would be weird if the Creator needed the Creation. Can you imagine the snowman doubting the reality of the kid who built him? We humans are pretty full of ourselves.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Show me evidence that God isn't a fictional creation of man.

If we are in a world of snowmen, than we are in a world filled with snowmen with no kids in sight populated by other snowmen who believe they were created by a different set of kids and that if you believe in the wrong kids you be melted.

I think in that case the snowmen have ample reason to doubt. If that's the best analogy you have its pretty sad.


Beth37 2 years ago

So a different analogy would cause you to believe? There is nothing I can say or do to prove God to you. You accept Him and find salvation and forgiveness or you deny Him and are without hope. I have nothing to do with it. It is a matter between you and God. A matter, considering the amount of hubs you have dedicated to the matter, you obviously cannot put down.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Beth37 - You do realize that when the Bible was written, people also believed the world was flat.

History is constantly being rewritten with new updated information. Don't you think it's about time to update all the Ideology books too?


Beth37 2 years ago

It's funny... ppl believing the world was flat, b/c they couldn't see or imagine anything differently. It's funny how we are about the tangible.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Austinstar: the bible was NOT written by people who thought the world was flat. Now YOU'RE making stuff up. I'll agree that history is being rewritten, but let's not say the bible was written by idiots. They were men, prophets, and the Holy Spirit guided them as they wrote.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Tell him, B!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

&Lybrah - My point is that neither you nor I know what those people believed. The only thing we DO know is that they lived in an entirely different society than we do now.

No, you cannot prove that the men who wrote the bible were 'prophets' and the 'holy spirit' guided them. You cannot, so don't even try.

Superman cannot fly, no matter how many people believe it.


Lybrah 2 years ago

I know that the people who wrote the bible believed in God. The books of the apostles were written by---the apostles. Each believed in Jesus, and then Paul's account is in ACTS, and you know he believed. Moses also believed in God and he wrote his book. So yes, they did live in a society different to ours, but that they believed in God is a known fact.


Beth37 2 years ago

Austinstar, if you do not believe; you do not believe. No one can twist your arm and change your mind. The fact is, there is a great percentage of the human race who do believe. You can chalk it up under the column of 'things you don't understand', you can hurl insults, or you can respectfully allow ppl the right, that this country was founded on... freedom of religion without persecution. Mock or respect... love or hate... dark or light... we always have the same choices. We just disagree whether they are God given or not.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

The people who wrote the Bible believed in all sorts of things that weren't true, that many people believed were true then but other than the existence of God is not debated as truth today. There are plenty of things that I can find that almost no one believes in but is stated as true or the word of God in the Bible. God is no more real as say any imaginary friend or comic book character, he only exists on the pages and in the minds of his creator. Saying that a snowman could debate the existence of the kids who created him is even sillier. Are you saying people can't create a God and have people believe he created the universe when in fact the Universe didn't have a creator? Can you prove that the Universe needs a creator? If you say something had to have created it you must also say something had to have created God, because the same question can be put to God. Where did God come from? How did he get to be God? Who created God? The problem there is we don't have evidence for the existence of God but we do have evidence for the existence of the universe.... so wouldn't it be more logical to discover if the universe has an actual beginning (hint: no one says it's the big bang, because it's not) and if it would require a being of intelligence to make it happen and that it can't happen by some other unknown natural phenomenon?

And just because people believed in something and wrote it down, doesn't make it true, nor does thinking that the authors actually believed in what they wrote, think of scam artists who write books with the expressed intention of convincing you that what they wrote is true, when none of it is. And if the lies that they wrote had the words "This is the word of God and it is infallible" does that automatically make it true? Because if that's so then anyone can write a book, say it was inspired by God and have millions of followers there after (Mormons).


Lybrah 2 years ago

True, Artblack, there is much deception in the world. That's when we need the Holy Spirit, to guide us into knowing what is deception and what is not. Prayer and trust in God usually are what works.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"The books of the apostles were written by---the apostles"

I assume you're talking about the Gospels. No legitimate scholar, even the Christian ones, believe that the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Facts, evidence, logical argumentation, just a few of the things that could change my mind. As I've said I was once a Christian, it was not something I abandoned lightly or at all once, I believed and wanted to keep believing. There simply wasn't any evidence for the Biblical God I'd been raised to believe in. My journey out of faith started as an attempt to strengthen my faith and commune with God that involved reading the entire Bible and praying that God would reveal his word to me.

Again you seem to rely on empty attempts at psychoanalysis, and have nothing of substance to say on the matter of God's existence.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Yours is a sad story, Titen-Sxull. Perhaps God was trying to make Himself known to you, but you were blinded by Satan. Yet you said if He were to reveal Himself to you, you'd still not follow Him, for you believe Him to be a monster. You are so wrong. You're too smart for your own good. I mean that in a nice way.


Lybrah 2 years ago

However, the gospels were written by men who were relaying the messages given by the Holy Spirit.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

"Prayer and trust in God usually are what works." Doesn't work for anyone, there is so many children suffering and your God does NADA for them.... The only thing that helps anyone from being deceived is healthy scepticism and evidence.

Lybrah, your story is far sadder that Titan Sxull, you live in a complete fantasy world. There is no holy spirit, men wrote the Bible with the expressed purpose of starting their own religion, with every religion there is a fool just like you saying the very same thing and feeling the exact same way as you do about it, they even claim that their God(s) answer their prayers, they claim that evil spirits try and sway them, etc. Same as your religion. They can't all be true, but then why do they have the exact same claims and experiences yet different God(s)? Whether it be Vishnu, Jesus, Allah, the Great Mother, whatever, they all say the exact same thing.... it's called self deception. The history of Christianity and other religions show them to be plagiarisms of other religions, a long line of plagiarisms. Look at modern Christianity, how many different sects and denominations are there because people can't agree on what the Bible says? And Mormonism, and Judaism, and Scientology, and so on, new and different and some so far out as to be classified as a new religion, and the followers make the same exact claims as you do.

Christianity is the same, just another scam with a fictional saviour, yes I have studied and concluded that Jesus if fictional. You can look at my hub on the subject of Jesus, plus there is so much new information that gives greater detail I am debating writing another hub on the subject, but I am really trying to move on from this topic. But statements that people like you make are so grossly ignorant of reality I feel compelled to say something. And stop trying to blame Satan, Satan doesn't exist. Blame yourself for your failings, not some supernatural scapegoat, people are responsible for their own actions and their wrong doings, no matter how good they claim to be and no matter how much they want to blame some devil for making them do something, in the end it is only them who has ever influenced their bad behaviour.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"for you believe Him to be a monster"

A non-existent monster, like the Big Bad Wolf or Darth Vader.

"However, the gospels were written by men who were relaying the messages given by the Holy Spirit."

So because it was supposedly inspired by God we can ignore the complete lack of evidence for the historicity of a single supernatural claim it makes? How can you justify a belief in the supernatural with the idea that a spirit told them so?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah - You 'believe' in the Holy Spirit and that it is what dictated the 'Gospels'. This cannot be proven. It's only a belief.


Lybrah 2 years ago

The Holy Spirit can be felt. I have seen people taken over by it.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

And I have seen people taken over by LSD or psilocybin mushrooms. Datura was a popular 'religious' drink back in those days too.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Not the same thing! The Holy Spirit is a spirit. You're talking about drugs and drinks.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Mental illness was completely unknown back in those days and drugs were not known the way they are today. They were commonly used by shaman and priests and all sorts of religious figures to talk to their god... but what of someone with mild schizophrenia? Someone who might see something that is not there but be completely (relatively speaking) sane sounding? How do you know the bible was not inspired by delusion? You don't, and you will never consider that possibility. But how many authors does the bible contain? And how many of those were sane? And before you say god wouldn't allow it, many people now have changed the bible to suit their needs and yet god allows that? How many different versions are there?


Lybrah 2 years ago

First of all, there is sickness and mental illness. But there are also demons about who will possess one and control one. There is a difference. The people in the bible who were inflicted with demons were, in fact, suffering from demons, and non-believers just attribute that to mental illness. Some people do change the bible to suit their need, but God doesn't change.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

The only reason you believe that demons possessed people is because you believe in demons and god and the bible, you are unwilling to accept any other possibility to be true despite the fact that there is no evidence for demons. Furthermore we only recently understand mental illness as a kind of sickness, but what about back when the bible was written. No one knew that there was such a thing as mental illness and would not be able to tell tge difference between being posessed by a demon or angel or a god with someone who would be mentally ill. It goes along with illusion and magic tricks, sleight of hand or just optical, and even halucination from eating something that might have been contaminated with a mold that would cause the person to see things. Which was actually very common. And in the ealier centuries things like this were more known and used for recreation by all sorts of people. Very recently these things were seen for their effects and classified as drugs. So only by our recent knowledge did we know about mental illness and psychotropic drugs. But what does that mean for people in the age of the bible? Demons, visions, etc. Saying it was inspired by god or demons is more just ignoring the facts of today.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Weird occurrences in haunted houses happen all of the time. Haven't you ever heard of the paranormal? Ghosts and stuff? That's all demons. And the alien abductions? That's all demons!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah - Angels and Demons are all products of your belief system. Your belief system is based on misunderstood thinking.

All superstition and 'hauntings' are based on misunderstandings!

Will you ever 'GET IT'?


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Actually I used to go ghost hunting with my ex-wife all the time and 99.9% of the time I could explain the phenomenon as something natural that occurred in the house and not a ghost, I used to watch those ghost programs all the time with her and I could explain all the occurrences they thought were ghosts as something natural as well. I am a videographer/photographer by training and most of the things seen are either lens flairs, failure of video equipment resolution or electrical disturbances caused by ungrounded or faulty electrical systems both inside and outside the video camera. Not to mention we are surrounded by radio waves and wireless signals that do interfere with all electrical equipment.... did you know I can use a computer to wirelessly interface and interrupt things such as toasters and lamps and microphones by sending a signals out via protocols. Did you know a wave function generator (which produces low and high frequency sound waves) can change your radio station if put to a certain frequency. I can even access your radio and hear what you are doing, creepy huh? Yet we are surrounded by electrical equipment. You see people like you believe what they want to believe, hear what you want to hear and will never question the origins of events rationally to find the actual source of said phenomenon. You will just jump to the conclusion of ghosts, demons, aliens, etc.... and never look to the natural world for the truth, which is often delusion, frequency saturation, air flow patterns or settling and expanding and contracting materials in a building or in a room causing strange sounds, etc. Even TV hoaxes and special effects.... ever see how they did the movie Paranormal Activity? If I can repeat all these phenomenon with low tech or no electronic gear then how can we jump to the conclusion of Ghosts or Demons? If the possessed can be shown to be just schizophrenic then how can one conclude possession by Demons? If a psychosomatic hysteria can cause people to think they are possessed then how will people like you NOT be FOOLED?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Exactly!


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skKmwT0EccE

A great example of being able to receive radio waves from seeming out of nowhere.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Artblack: I believe everything you say to be true. But there is paranormal phenomenon that occurs as well. Some houses really are haunted, I believe.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Having spoken in tongues myself when I was younger and having felt what I believed was the Holy Spirit I have to say there's nothing magical or supernatural about the experience. It is no more a profound experience than being at a rock concert for a band you really like and being absolutely absorbed into the music or having a profound and vivid dream that really bends your mind and emotions. Nothing in the experience is unique to Christianity or even religion.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I've heard of ghosts, I've even investigated the paranormal and gone into graveyards looking for it in the middle of the night. Guess how many ghosts I saw Lybrah!

The answer is none.

And that was while I still believed in ghosts.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Lybrah, a rule that I live by is to always question what I believe to be reality, I even question the answers that I find. Believing in something doesn't make it true. We want to believe, but that doesn't mean we should.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Titen-Sxull: You WERE filled with the Holy Spirit, I can tell you that. You've been deceived by Satan that that feeling was false. True, you can go to a rock concert and be absorbed by the music, or have a vivid dream, yes, those feelings are real too. And just because you didn't see any ghosts, doesn't mean that weren't any. They just didn't make themselves known to you. Have you ever played with a Ouiji board? That is your direct line to Satan, don't start now if the answer is no, but there is unexplained phenomenon in this world. There is a spiritual realm that we humans cannot see.


artblack01 profile image

artblack01 2 years ago from New Mexico

Ha ha, I can tell you from experience and from much study that there are no ghosts and no satan and no holy spirit, its all just human emotion, imagination and delusion. That includes the ouija board. And depending on your religious beliefs and your desire and your expectation, ouija boards will only tell you what you expect to hear.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

No, my direct line to Satan is the chalk pentagram in the basement with 13 candles =P

Ouija boards are manufactured by Parker Brothers as a parlor game, the sort you play as a kid at a sleep over, they don't actually do anything or channel anything supernatural, anymore than the keyboard I'm currently typing on does. That's the thing, its just a board with the alphabet, its about as magical as the stickers with the alphabet we all had laminated on our desks in grade school.


Lybrah 2 years ago

Chalk pentagon with candles, eh? You're funny.


Rah Rah 2 years ago

God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing and everywhere. If such a deity exists, why is there any doubts to its existence. There would be absolutely no way any person could deny such a being existing if it existed. Also I doubt said deity would regulate knowledge of itself only to the one human faculty least likely to lead to truth (intuition/faith). It leaves too much room for self-deception relying solely on ones own faith and trust.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working