Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

Theologian Gunnar Samuelssons comments appear in an article in The Daily Telegraph (UK) and the text at left is taken from there to set the scene and allow readers to understand the inspiration for this hub.

You can read the full article at:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html

The legend of his execution is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations rather than antique texts, according to theologian Gunnar Samuelsson.

He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails or to crucifixion - only that Jesus bore a "staurus" towards Calvary which is not necessarily a cross but can also mean a "pole".

Theologian Gunnar Samuelsson has written a 400-page thesis after studying the original texts, said:

"The problem is descriptions of crucifixions are remarkably absent in the antique literature. The sources where you would expect to find support for the established understanding of the event really don't say anything. "

The ancient Greek, Latin and Hebrew literature from Homer to the first century AD describe an arsenal of suspension punishments but none mention "crosses" or "crucifixion."

Mr Samuelsson, of Gothenburg University, said: "Consequently, the contemporary understanding of crucifixion as a punishment is severely challenged.

"And what's even more challenging is the same can be concluded about the accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus.

The New Testament doesn't say as much as we'd like to believe ."

End of quote

But does this matter, if it is true?

No doubt, if our atheist friends have spotted this they will be busy in the forums, maybe some more devout believers will be outraged that anyone challenges what their bibles state.

Secular humanity will just relax in their disbelief.

Those who have a daily relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit will hopefully take the time to re examine where they stand in this issue.

Speaking personally I believe that God has ensured that any believer can find sufficient evidence in the bible, for them to approach the 'cross ' that Christ informs us we need to pick up daily, in His word.

I have no doubt that man in his attempts to reinterpret the words of God to fit into his motives, will have interpreted things to suit, and our understanding of our bibles can have been corrupted in part by successive generations of Popes and rulers.

But the TRUTH is still in there to be found, and the book is sufficient for all who seek to find it.

Every word of God is tried and purified; He is a shield to those who trust and take refuge in Him.

Proverbs 30:5 (Amplified Bible)

I have found many folk who have embraced Christianity.... but failed to embrace Christ .... people who have found a religion, and perhaps attained a place of leadership in their religion, who have not actually entered into a spirit filled existence with God through His Holy Spirit.

I do not say that you are not a true believer if you have not experienced an infilling of the Holy Spirit, that is far too narrow a view to hold, and in any case someone can be fully saved and not spirit filled.

But I do say that ONCE someone has experienced the daily outworking of Christ through His Holy Spirit in their lives, they cannot fall away from the faith and belief in Christ that they have attained and experienced.

People who have not experience this can be disabled by the fiery darts and arrows of the enemy.

Not everyone in an army needs to be dressed in full armour and ride into battle, the foot soldiers wear no such protection, their safety comes from their shield, and they follow the cavalry into the battle.

In Medieval times the 'knights ' needed to practise daily standing and fighting in full armour, and they still do today.

Not many folk are prepared to do this strenuous task in order to be ready for an encounter with the enemy, at the front of the charge.


Ephesians 6

Not in the way of eye-service [as if they were watching you] and only to please men, but as servants (slaves) of Christ, doing the will of God heartily and with your whole soul;

Rendering service readily with goodwill, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that for whatever good anyone does, he will receive his reward from the Lord, whether he is slave or free.

You masters, act on the same [principle] toward them and give up threatening and using violent and abusive words, knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him.

 In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides].

Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil.

For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].

Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,

And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.

Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.

Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people).

And [pray] also for me, that [freedom of] utterance may be given me, that I may open my mouth to proclaim boldly the mystery of the good news (the Gospel),

So it is with Christians.

I realise that analogies about medieval knights draw comparisons with the Crusades, and am aware that those Crusades were ill informed and non Christian activities, our battle is against dark spiritual forces in the 'heavenlies ', NOT against flesh and blood.

The foot soldier can be forgiven if they hear their enemy calling that their King is dead and the battle is lost, they have viewed their King from a distance, heard of him from their leaders, they have not met with him personally.

That's why we need to re-evaluate our relationship daily, and strive to get more of Christ, to get into that full Holy Spirit filled relationship, to put our armour on DAILY and stand ready to fight the 'enemy' wherever he raises his ugly head to attack the 'brethren ', to pray incessantly for the saints, all those things we are told to do in Ephesians, yet which many simply get too busy to practise daily, or even more than once a week at their church meeting.

Wake up church!

Time is short and daily we see more attacks apon our faith from a secular world that has progessed from tentative probing to full blown attacks on what for years the body of Christ had full reign over.

Morality has become an arbitrary subject, self justification is the norm for our society, good has become bad, and nobody is allowed to challenge how anybody else wishes to behave inside or outside the law.

This is no surprise, our Lord told us that this will happen during the end days, and even that concept is challenged daily!

Someone wrote in another hub that they doubted that Revelation was scriptural! - that the whole book should be dropped from the canon of scripture. That it was not relevant for our lives today!

How ridiculous!

God gave us exactly what He wanted us to have, man may have interpreted is somewhat; to fit their desires or settle their confusions, but the bible also tells us to study to be approved, to be Bereans and examine the word daily to improve our lives and be edified.

To bring each other to the 'fullness ' of Christ, to correct error where we find it, to admonish those who are in danger of losing their eternal lives in their sinfullness.

At the end of the day, a believers life does NOT belong to them, they have been bought and paid for by Christ.

I do not doubt that Christ died to pay for our sins, ONCE and FOR ALL , and therefore someone questioning the manner of his execution is of little concern for me.

I definitely KNOW that Christ rose again and lives today, He's here with me now as I write, and He's there with you now as you read.

You can ignore Him, but you cannot avoid Him.

Immersion in the Holy Spirit - Part One

Immersion in the Holy Spirit - Part Two

More by this Author


Comments 60 comments

heavenbound5511 profile image

heavenbound5511 5 years ago from Under the shadow of the Almighty God!

Hi John.

Nice page- I do believe that Jesus died on the cross of course- but for the ones that argue about if He died on a cross or stake it really doesn't make no difference in the fact if they are saved or not. We have to believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess Him as our Lord. The confession of Jesus being one's Lord is only made possible by the Holy Spirit.

Yes there is a lot of evidence in the bible of the cross.

God knew their would be an argument on how Jesus died before hand and made it easy to be saved without complete understanding.

There's a difference in how much victory in this life a person can have with and without the Holy Spirit- no one can answer there call- that God has called them to do without the indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit.

Once an example of being filled with the Holy Spirit verses being surrounded was given to me this way: Say you take an empty pop/soda bottle with lid on and throw it into a pool of water- there's a difference in that bottle being filled with water verses surrounded.

So if we want God to use us at the fullest we must be filled with His Spirit. It is as easy as asking/ praying to God I want your Holy Spirit in Jesus name.

We have not because we ask not.

John, I also like how you worded and explained our armor.

Thank you!

God bless you!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit knows it, and I think I want to be standing behind Jesus when AKA gives this speech to God.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Then you admit that you never were a true believer, for you must never have been in filled with the Holy spirit, you had a false conversion, end of story.

So be it.


Baileybear 5 years ago

I no longer believe in god, so I don't see how I can be called a doubting believer. I believed I was baptised in the holy spirit, but of course, it was all a subjective 'feeling'


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Baileybear, thanks again for visiting, hope you read the whole of my hubs!

So, you are telling me that you KNEW Christ, and was infilled with the Holy Spirit, and have now rejected their existence... is that correct?

But if you did know Christ, can you also say that He knew you?... if He did, then you are not so much an ex Christian as a doubting believer currently in disbelief.

To be an atheist, you have to contradict yourself, for you say that you were baptised in the Holy spirit, yet now you must deny He exists.

How does that work?


Baileybear 5 years ago

You say a believer cannot fall away. I believed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit etc and I am now an ex-christian. You will find many of the "athiests" on the forums were too. For those to that say I wasn't really saved in the first place - how do you really know you are?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

Actually Crucifixion was predicted in Psalm 22. about 500 years before invention. It was not known until later. In 70 there were 1000 Jews daily crucified. Another point if I may: Accusing Roman church is easy. But Roman church altered the teachings but never scripture. They removed second of Ten Commandment and split the tenth.

There was found in Dead Scrolls writing by historian Luke and Prophet Isaiah, identical what we have now.

Jesus did carry stick which was placed across on the top. It could be shape as T but there was an extension over His head with inscription which made cross shape.

The scripture never were altered, except some misspelling errors, all in different places.

Thanks for this hub.

In Zech 10:12 we read: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,...


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Fabulous hub, brother! I read an outstanding hub that shows WHY a cross would have been used to crucify Jesus, according to Scripture by fellow hubber exjwlaurie: http://hubpages.com/hub/Believe-in-the-Cross-The-A...

When I looked up 'cross' in the Greek, it is the Greek word 'stauros' and is defined as 'the Roman instrument of crucifixion'. I then looked up the instrument used by Romans to crucify and found this article supportive of the cross: http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/roman-crucifixi...

And, regarding those who think Revelation should be taken out of the Bible?! The Revelation of Jesus Christ states in 1:3, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."

I always appreciate your wisdom and ministry, aguasilver. I pray God continue to anoint your ministry for Him.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Loves to Read.

John


Loves To Read profile image

Loves To Read 6 years ago

Aguasilver,what controversy we open up when we talk about God or the lack thereof. I am on the side of The Bible. The Cross, but above all else I believe in the Holy Trinity. It is like the old song that says "there are none so blind as those who will not see"

It is an impossible thing to prove to someone the existence of God if they don't want to hear it. But for those of us who have a personal relationship and are filled with the Spirit. We do not need any more proof than walking with Him everyday. Living in His love and being sure of our future.

God Bless


dfager profile image

dfager 6 years ago from Federal Way, Washington

I fully understand Winston's comment, I've been there myself philosophically. I agree that faith is subjective because the meaning of the word faith means that it is subjective. But, however, as a believer, I know that my faith is a reality and I can accept the authority of the Bible. Outside of faith, this reality is only subjective. It's only on the inside of faith that it is objective. It's not merely an argument of semantics though.

What I'm saying to non-believers is that I agree that faith is subjective, while I can agree with believers that faith is objective. I fully believe that God reveals Himself to people and I agree that God is faithful and will reveal Himself to those who ask.

I get so frustrated with the whole argument because semantically both sides can be right but never agree with each other!

One thing that is objective however is the concept of sin and it is not a simple problem of what is morally wrong or right. Sin is more complicated than that because it involves in either trusting in yourself as a final authority or trusting in God as a final authority. The whole science of psychology deals with the concept of sin, inperfection, broken relationships, learning, conditioning and overcoming old habits. The science uses different words for sin but even the science of psychology trys to make us better than how we come into this world and react to it naturally as human nature dictates.

Another thing that's objective is creation. There had to be something before the big bang, the moment before the universe was born. I think time would have had to exist before the universe and maybe some thing like a universe which gave birth to the universe, or God. My perspective is that I'm just to small and unknowing to know or understand. I also know and believe that the reality of how the universe came into being is not dependent on what my beliefs are. In the beginning things happened independent of what I think about it. The sun will rise tommorrow whether I believe in it or not. I think God communicated this thought to Moses when He told Moses "I am". Objective reality I think is totally too big for us - so I'll just believe in God.


Benjimester profile image

Benjimester 6 years ago from San Diego, California

Really interesting discussion in the comments :) I agree with your assessment of the issue of the cross vs the pole. It really doesn't matter to me one way or another. It isn't vital to my faith that Jesus died on a cross vs some other kind of similar death. And I like your conclusion and your call for people to wake up. The church is really in for some difficult times if people don't wake up and smell the roses.


Judicastro profile image

Judicastro 6 years ago from birmingham, Alabama

I so enjoyed your hub and all the conversations after it! Faith truly cannot be explained or reasoned. It's just what I call a knowing that goes so deep sometimes you can almost taste it. Aka Winston causes me to remember Saul in Acts. He was a true Jewish scholar and had no desire to know this Christ must less believe that He was the Messiah they had long been waiting for. Saul has every intention to annihilate every Christ follower he can find. Then he is confronted on the road to Damascus by a flash of light and a loud voice saying "Saul why are you persecuting me"? God is still showing up in very incredible circumstances that logic cannot explain. I have such a love for Him that I could never explain, He truly is my best Friend. Blessings to you fellow brother I Christ


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks matt6v33,

I do hope to hear those words! and do feel much younger than my birth years, indeed it's only because younger folk are starting to treat me like a senior adult that I have accepted that years are advancing, but having said that, I've met many folk who are 'old' at 40.....

John


matt6v33 profile image

matt6v33 6 years ago from Bangkok, Thailand

John, NP(No Problem) I think U R Worth It!

Lets be mindful shall we?

ref; "Young Man"

Youth Sir, is not measured by ones Birthday, its measured by ones Death Date! So if one is 21 and they die at the age of 23 is then would be considered OLD, however if one is 59 and lives until 90, that one, one can argue, is YOUNG!

As We i'm sure can agree, whats important, is where One will end up, in eternity.

For One Will live there lives, in such a way, that they will either hear from Him, "Enter thy Good and Faithful Servant, or "Depart From Me, For I dont Know Thee"

You Keep the Faith John, Keep going, Keep sharing, Keep leading others hearts, and mind toward Him, and its my hope and pray for you, that u will hear on that day of your judgement "Enter, Thy Good and Faithful Servant, Well Done"!


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Matt, time permitting I will keep it up.... young man? I thank you again, I'm 59 years young!

John


matt6v33 profile image

matt6v33 6 years ago from Bangkok, Thailand

Hello Young Man,

Great Write Up... Love your Heart, and yes, too, I do Thank God for One's like you, DAILY! Keep it up, in so other like me, can learn, and appreicate that God given talent u clearly possess! Keep these coming plz!

In Christian Charity,

Jim


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Ivorwen,

Thanks for the comment.

Frankly for me the fact that matters is He lives today and sent His Comforter to guide and guard us.

I love academic study, but it's my relationship with Christ that gives me hope, faith and trust in Him.


Ivorwen profile image

Ivorwen 6 years ago from Hither and Yonder

I will be looking up the Greek words translated crucifixion and cross. In the past, I have met scholars who say there were many ways people were crucified by the Romans, and that the picture we most often see is only one method, mostly used at a later date. As to the nails, there is the passage in John 20 about Thomas wanting to see and touch the nail prints.


Micky Dee profile image

Micky Dee 6 years ago

There were discrepancies with copying the Bible but the truth is apparent. For me it really does not matter that Jesus died on the cross. That is not for me to prove. Above believing that Jesus is God is that we "do unto others as we would have them do unto us". This is THE law above all other laws. Jesus said so. The reason we are of this faith is our origin of birth. If we had all had another religion that showed the way and overwhelmed us we most likely would be in that faith.

The common ground is that every religion has a form of the Golden Rule. If this LAW is not adhered to by every businessman, every ruler, every Christian, every Jew, every Muslim, every Catholic, every... there will indeed be hell to pay.

Every Christian absolutely MUST obey this law. If not- it's a cult. Doing as Jesus commands us is THE importance. My leader, my teacher, my God does not have to die for me to adhere to His greatest message.

The United States and the world need to re-evaluate priorities. The Golden Rule isn't just a good idea. The Golden Rule is considered not "meaty" enough for today's "complex" problems.- Indeed! Kiss! Keep It Simple Scribes!


Eric Calderwood profile image

Eric Calderwood 6 years ago from USA

Great article! I believe in the Cross. It's funny how after years (2000 of them) of Christians referring to the Cross and symbolizing it in pictures and art as well as the written word and oral accounts, all of a sudden a scholar comes along to "prove" they were all mistaken.


Nikko 6 years ago

We all know that and preach that he dead to make up what adam lost for us and he is lord,the son of GOD,Jehovah


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Nikko,

I'm just delighted that He rose again and defeated death, giving salvation to those who will accept His Grace and Mercy, which always triumphs over Justice.

If you can say 'Jesus Christ is Lord' as a JW, and have experienced the regeneration of the spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit, then we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

John


Nikko 6 years ago

JW knew about this for years and as for me,i been knowing this fact for over 20 years about Jesus dieing on a torture stake,not a cross like the lame churces claim and idol worship the cross and other images which is a sin to God.The Romans used torture stakes to punish and execute people,not cross.people should do their research on the Romans and on the original scriptures that say stake,not cross.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Dean,

Deep thoughts and words, wow you blow me away with your reasoning!

John


fallsfella 6 years ago

I don't know what Bible Gunnar Samuelsson has been reading but it sure isn't the same one I've studied for the past 40+ yuears. I have a Masters Degree in Theology and would like to know where Mr. Samuelsson got his degree. He is WAY off base when he asserts Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. Mr. Samuelsson needs to go back and re-read the New Testament and I think he will come away knowing Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross just as Papa-Bear needs to re-read his Bible. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, people heard the voice of God say, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased"...And somewhere along the line Papa-Bear has believed the lie that the trinity is not true when there is plenty of eveidence the trinity is true....People need to read the Bible and read it closely before they go about making untrue statement about God and Hisd Son Jesus Christ.............................................


cheaptrick profile image

cheaptrick 6 years ago from the bridge of sighs

Hello John.Having read the discussion on truth and natural objectivity I'd like to say this.

Truth as an absolute does not exist,it is the "Carrot"held before us to keep us constantly plodding along in hopes of one day filling our spiritual belly's with it[that is as it should be].

Natural objects reduced to the quantum level are made up of charges held in relationship IE:Nothing solid there!Subjective truth and natural objects are both generated from Information...which becomes reality when and only when observed.Otherwise both remain in a state of possibility.We Create reality through observation.When we focus our will and observe we bring into being that which we believe.{I believe you folks call it Prayer].Religion seems to be a movement focused on bringing harmony and love to fullness.Also,throughout history,Religion and government have kept an equilibrium in societies where they were Equal but separate.Every country that has eliminated one or the other has come to ruins and millions suffered for it.On that account I will defend your religion with my life if necessary.Sorry for the length of this post.I'm just tired of this back and forth silly game of arguing if something is or is not.If people disagree with something they need to learn to ignore it.

Your friend and supporter

Dean


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Papa Bear, I thank you for posting, not sure what you believe from your statements, but hey, anyone who resembles Sonny Bono can't be all bad..... I'll take a read of your hubs to get to know you better!

John


PAPA-BEAR profile image

PAPA-BEAR 6 years ago from London England UK

It is a fact that has been aired for many many years. The deliberate altering of the original language by the churches has exposed them as LIARS, and God does not love a liar. Just as Jesus is NOT GOD, he is Gods son, as at his baptism, it was Gods voice that said, 'This is MY SON the beloved who I have approved.' There is no trinity another lie, Babylon the great has fallen she has fallen. False religion is on its knees.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks to all of you who have commented here, I'm glad we agree that Gods word is truth!


sandra rinck 6 years ago

The other day a pastor was giving a sermon on tv. It was a local one. I hardly ever watch them but I stopped for a listen even while my boyfriend was like, ugh change the channel. I said, just sec...

Anyways, something that I have been thinking a lot about was 'change'. He says that there are two truths. One is empirical, we can see it, know it, touch it. We know that trees are real, that is a truth. Trees do exist etc. He says, but the truth about those truths is that they are always changing. Today we know one truth about a tree because we can see it but tomorrow if it is gone it is no longer the truth... something like this.

He goes on to talk about eternal truth, the truth in the things you cannot see. This of course has always fascinated me because I myself, find more truth in the things I cannot see, things that are timeless and never change. Anyways...

He says, God never changes because it is the eternal truth. Everything on Earth passes away, it changes, the truth changes as we discover more about it but that is the problem with life truths in the things you can see because what happens when you cannot see them anymore?

Well if seeing them makes them true and then they die, do they suddenly become untrue?

Anyways, I loved his sermon. It wasn't very long and I am glad I stopped for a second. I guess what I was getting at is that I do agree.

The truth is still there for you to find it.


exjwlaurie 6 years ago

Hi John!

Great Hub! I am a staunch believer in the cross! As a former JW, I can tell you--I have come a very long way to be able to say that!

1 Co 1:18-20: 'For the message of the cross is follishness to those who are 'perishing', but to us who are being 'saved' it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?'

The thing is:

To those who believe, no proof is necessary. To those who do not believe, no proof will suffice.

Wonderful job on this John!


kmarquize profile image

kmarquize 6 years ago from New Orleans, LA

This is a great piece!


Davidsonofjesie 6 years ago

way to go , nice job


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Derek went home about three years ago, he ministered all over the world and touched many people, me included.

He is the soundest teacher I have found.

Glad to be of some assistance.

John


always exploring profile image

always exploring 6 years ago from Southern Illinois

Aguasilver,

Thank you very much for the added videos. I had a grandmother who was of the pentecostal faith. Thank you for the advice and God bless you Is Bro. Prince still alive, does he have a church and if so where?

I really liked him.


Brenda Durham 6 years ago

Much food for thought. Your explanation of the Armor of God is very insightful; I will be reading this again just for the beauty of it; and maybe I'll learn some more too from it.

Thanks aguasilver.


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@ Ron,

(Faith is the essence of what makes Christ tangible)

Ron, could you "faith" me up a tangible ham and cheese sandwich? All this talk is making me hungry.

(Faith cannot be explained with logic therefore it must be false?)

Wow. You understand. Faith is neither true nor false. Faith is faith. Nothing wrong with believing, but belief is not proof.

(Fail to believe, fail to receive.)

Kind of like "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit"? Bumper-sticker sloganizing does not make a concept true, either.


rocketjsqu profile image

rocketjsqu 6 years ago from Gainesville, NY USA

Hey John,

Whew!! Who da thought truth could only be proven with logic? That is one of the mysteries of God that non-believers don't get...Faith is the essence of what makes Christ tangible. Faith cannot be explained with logic therefore it must be false? Not! To believe is to feel His presence. Fail to believe, fail to receive.

Great hub.

Ron


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

....and another thing Winston, it's a believers 100% faith, trust and knowledge that Christ IS the ONLY WAY to God that annoys all unbelievers (in Christ) be they religious or not.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

That's the thing Winston, with my belief system, that being Christ, even IF Mohammed had been right, I would stand before God and be accepted, likewise most every other faith, for pantheism must by definition be all inclusive, so you see I'm a happy bunny, no surprises for me, unless God is an atheist who wants His people to disbelieve in Him.... reckon that's a likelihood? - NAH me neither, besides, I've met with the man and He's as real as I am.

I AM 100% secure in my relationship with Christ.


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@ Acquasilver,

(Sure, everyone believes they are right, but ONLY one version will be right)

It will really suck if you turn out to be wrong, John.

If it turns out that the Muslims are right, Allah is really going to be pissed off at you. Then what?


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

BTW coffeesnob, Sanctus and all you others, thanks for dropping by and reading, I appreciate it.

John


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Winston, keep those comments flowing, you are good for business! Like I said, no receiver, no picture or sound, no way to prove to you that those signals exist.

That's your problem, the set's broken, or you will not turn it on, the you sit in the dark saying that there's nothing to watch, and in any case once you die you can't see any movies, so why bother!

Your own quote on your hub pages.....

"The one thing I will not do is bow down to authority and be guided by dogma."

Bingo! - Absolute guarantee that God will say "So be it" and leave you alone in your ignorance and disbelief.

You have no need to be guided by dogma, that I agree with, but having the arrogance to say that you won't bow down to authority is plain stupid, and by the way, don't ever get pulled over in Tennessee for a driving offence, you may just end up in big trouble, or so my friends tell me, just recognise that you are facing a big, bible believing trooper, with a gun and a willingness to take you apart if you don't 'bow down' to HIS authority and call him SIR!

You will soul sleep when you leave this gig, but guess what, THEN you wake up for the MAIN event and kneel before God awaiting judgement, at that stage my guess is that most folk will realise that they need to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, no matter whether they are atheists, Mullahs or the Pope.

Sure, everyone believes they are right, but ONLY one version will be right.

Christ is the ONLY man who ever lived and stated that HE was the ONLY way to God.

I rest my case and stand in His assurance.

YOU may have an aversion to Churchianity, that's fine, but you have not tried to give authority over you life to God yet, via Christ just like He says in His word, so you are still at a disadvantage, looking at the world with one eye taped shut.

Give it a spin, and keep those comments coming!

John


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@ Acquasilver,

(Winston, you simply do not get it my friend, a believer KNOWS that Christ and the Holy Spirit are TRUTH because they have EXPERIENCED the PRESENCE of both of them.)

Unfortunately, Acqua, old buddy, it is you who are misguided. Do you not understand that the Isamic Mullah is TOTALLY convinced of the TRUTH of HIS beliefs, as well?

Like I said at the start, I don't care what you or the Mullah believe - that is your business. My goal is to educate, not change opinions.

Truth is subjective. It is neither relative nor absolute. Truth must always be proved by a system of logic.

When you claim otherwise, you are misrepresenting "faith" as truth. These words are not interchangeable.

Thanks.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Interesting hub here John, and I see it's causing at least one person to pipe up. How interesting is it, that God has opened some eyes, but shut others eyes? Those with closed eyes can not close the eyes of another, and vice versa.

Speaking of the cross, I have also heard that Jesus was crucified on a stake. Cross, or stake, either way he was crucified.


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@ Joni Douglas,

(If you can prove it, why the need for faith?)

Well, Joni, as proof is a matter of systems of logic, and logic is a construction of the human mind, it still requires some amount of faith (belief) to accept the conclusion as valid. (All proofs and all truths only occur as logical necessities within systems of logic. We cannot "prove" objects like the moon exist - we cannot prove anything exists, for that matter. Proof is subjective, i.e., it requires an observer to make a determination of its validity. Hence, only logics can furnish rules to determine the logical dichotomy of true/false, and because logics are concepts of the human mind, true/false then must also be determined by the human mind, i.e., they must be subjective.)

(Get the faith & the proof reveals itself.)

Unfortunately, proof is NEVER revealed. It is built on steps of logic (a priori). I will give you an example.

All wood burns.

Pine is a type of wood.

Therefore, Pine burns.

Now, let's say you are blind and have never seen any wood burn ever, but you have felt its heat. Let us further say you live in a part of the world where Pine trees do not grow.

Does the proof, (Therefore, pine burns), reveal itself, or is it simply a necessity because it follows the rules of logic?


Joni Douglas profile image

Joni Douglas 6 years ago

Absolutely wonderful. Great job. If you can prove it, why the need for faith? Get the faith & the proof reveals itself.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

always exploring, I have added some more videos that may help you.

Basically, just be open to the presence of God, set aside some time to praise the Lord and seek His face, give thanks for what He has done for you, confess and repent of whatever God brings to your attention, forgive anybody that you have not forgiven, and allow the Holy Spirit to pour out His blessing on you.

Bible states that:

Romans 8:26 (Amplified Bible)

So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.

Allow yourself to submit to the Spirit of God and allow the Holy Spirit to flow through you.

John


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Winston, you simply do not get it my friend, a believer KNOWS that Christ and the Holy Spirit are TRUTH because they have EXPERIENCED the PRESENCE of both of them.

You see the moon in the sky and therefore believe it exists as an object, we walk on the moon.

For you, radio and TV signals do not exist, you cannot see them and they cannot be touched or smelt or even seen and heard until you get a receiver that will display them to you.

What you lack is a receiver, it's available for free, as it's already been paid for by Christ, but you do have to take delivery and plug it into a power supply before you can experience the sight and sounds that will convince you that those signals exist.

John


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@acquasilver

"Winston, you prove my point, thee is a move towards subjectivism and you typify the move, a move to stop folk seeing things from an objective viewpoint, that they are sure about."

You should research the words you use. All religions and all TRUTH is subjective. The moon is objective.


always exploring profile image

always exploring 6 years ago from Southern Illinois

This writing inspires me deep into my very being. I believe with all of my heart that God exists along with his son Jesus. How do you know that you have received the holy spirit? I have prayed for this gift.

Thank you for your writings and God Bless You


coffeesnob 6 years ago

Aguasilver,

Well said and written. To those who are perishing this makes no sense. Your advise to AKA Winston was sound. Those who deny are afraid to ask Jesus to make himself known, and they hide their fear behind arguments that they cannot validate, because they do not believe in an absolute truth. Hopefully AKA will overcome such fear and simply ask.

You said, "I have found many folk who have embraced Christianity.... but failed to embrace Christ .... people who have found a religion, and perhaps attained a place of leadership in their religion, who have not actually entered into a spirit filled existence with God through His Holy Spirit."

this is so true and so much more prevalent or perhaps I just see it more. Christianity is chosen like a grocery cart item and religion is practiced - but no relationship with Jesus occurs. It feels comfortable, but there is no power for life.

Thanks for your insights.

CS


AKA Winston 6 years ago

@Fred Allen:

(Following that logic is tantamount to saying George Washington wasn't real.)

Hi, Fred. You make my point for me. No, I cannot say for sure that George Washington was real, although there is surely strong evidence of his having been.

(Have you ever seen him?) No. Have you?

(Can you prove he existed?)

No way. Existence cannot be proved. Proving things is in the realm of logics, while existence is in the realms of actuality - those things that have mass and location in the universe. Existence can never be proven.

(Is it true that when you drop an apple it will fall to the ground?)

No, it is not "true". It is simply a fact. The explanation for this fact is that the apple was acted upon by gravity.

But prove it? Nope. Is it true? No, again. Truth is NOT a thing, an object. It is a concept, and thus is interpretive.

The knife edge is sharp may be thought of as true to humans, but for the bacteria on that edge it is a wide and dull plateau.

That does not make truth relative - but subjective.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 6 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Aguasilver, John my brother, From your heart, through His Holy Spirit, has come this knowledge and Wisdom. As Jesus told Peter when asked,"But who do you say that I Am."

Thank you for this revelation John and God Bless.

Brother Dave.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Winston, you prove my point, thee is a move towards subjectivism and you typify the move, a move to stop folk seeing things from an objective viewpoint, that they are sure about.

Christ is very much an 'objective force' to those who have met Him, the fact that you have not met Him, makes Him no less the truth, it simply means that you cannot prove to yourself that He exists.

Try doing that, just ASK Him to make Himself known to you, then see how you think about in in (say) a year from now.

For although His invitation is open to all, most are closed to His invitation.

John

Fred, thanks for the reply to Winston and all other sceptical subjective thinkers.


fred allen profile image

fred allen 6 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

AKA Winston- Following that logic is tantamount to saying George Washington wasn't real. Have you ever seen him? Can you prove he existed? Is it true that when you drop an apple it will fall to the ground? Is it not also true that if in fact the bible is the inspired word of the living God it's truths could very well be absolute? Your only contention is that it may not be. But if it is?...

Aguasilver- Very well written! The skeptics can say what they will but when you experience the truth doubt begins to vanish.


AKA Winston 6 years ago

"But the TRUTH is still in there to be found, and the book is sufficient for all who seek to find it."

Not to quibble or poke fun at your beliefs, but simply to encourage rational thinking in all people, I submit that TRUTH cannot be "found", as it is not an object. What we claim to be true or false is derived from systems of logic. What we name as a "truth" is actually only a logical necessity that stems from a particular system of logic. We use axioms, which are ideas we think are self-evident, as the starting point. An axiom may say: something is or is not. We start from there, and solving the stated initial dichotomy via a logical progression is how we detemine the logical necessity, which we then label "truth" if we agree with it.

In other words, all "truth" is proven by a system of logic, and because logic deals with thoughts and ideas then truth is no more that a thought or idea, and is thus subjective.

Objects, on the other hand, are part of nature, and they have mass and a location. These are objective in nature. TRUTH, which has no mass or location, is only an idea.

Why do you think the battle continues to rage over which "truth" is the right "truth" between competing religions? The Islamics think their version of "truth" is right while Christians hold that their version of "truth" is right and Jews think their version of "truth" is right.

There can be no argument that each group is deeply religious - so why the difference in their understanding of TRUTH?

It's because TRUTH is subjective. In essence we vote on what we believe to be true.

So keep in mind when you look in your Holy Book you will not find TRUTH - you will find words and ideas - which you personally believe to be true, but that makes you no different and no more right than the Jew or the Muslim, who beleives in the rightness of his Holy Book.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Many thanks RevLady, this one came as soon as I read the article!


RevLady profile image

RevLady 6 years ago from Lantana, Florida

You have said it all Aguasilver and I agree. All glory to God.

Peace and blessings!

Forever His,

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