Jesus never resurrected; he never died on the Cross to start with

Jesus did not die on the Cross

Hi

It is quite obvious that the truthful disciples of Jesus did not believe that Jesus had died on the Cross. It is for this reason that they asked for the body of Jesus, from Pilate, to be handed over to them; and when it was handed over to them they hurriedly took him to the tomb of Joseph of Armethia.What for and why this hurry? If Jesus was physically dead and was to get alive anyhow in some days; no hurry, worry or panic for his friends. It suited them and Jesus to let him be in the open and not be buried; so that the Jews who had demanded of a sign from Jesus and Jesus had promised them to show the sign; the Jews would have seen Jesus becoming alive before their very eyes and believed in him.

But they did not leave Jesus in the open; because they knew that Jesus had not died so they hurriedly took him to a spacious and airy tomb so that he be treated for his injuries as soon as possible.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

 

Comments 77 comments

paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Kindly let the wrappings of Jesus tell the story.

Hi friends

The question to start with is; why Jesus was wrapped into in the first place? The wrappings speak that the persons who wrapped him were sure that Jesus had not died on the Cross. A dead body needs no wrappings whatsoever. The body of a dead person is covered with a shroud that is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim tradition I think. The dead body is given a bath or washed and is wrapped into a shroud/s. The final funeral ceremony is held, and it is placed in the grave.

Please quote from some Jewish, Christian and Muslim sources if I am wrong.

1. When and where Jesus was given a bath or his body was washed.

2. Did the disciples, who had fled away from the scene of crucifixion, were informed of the funeral ceremony? If not, why not?

3. Who lead the funeral prayer?

4. Was funeral ceremony held in Jewish tradition or Christian tradition? Christian tradition was invented later by Paul or his church unauthorized. Jesus had given no such tradition.

If those who were trusted with the body of Jesus did not participate or arrange the above; and we find no such recorded account in the four gospels, it is sure those who looked after his body knew that Jesus was not dead and hence they did not do it.

The injured body always needs wrappings after application of the ointments or medicines.

I think the rest is very clear. Those who wrapped Jesus; they are the ones or their helping friends who are supposed to unwrap him. If they could put him in a tomb and placed a stone, they could help Jesus to push the stone away, un-wrap him and let him go.

This is very reasonable. I think you agree with me.

I love Jesus and Muhammad.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


gracefaith profile image

gracefaith 6 years ago from United Kingdom

The disciples did not expect Jesus to die. You are right about that to a certain extent. However it clearly states in the Bible that Jesus had explained that he would many times and that the desciples did not understand. The Jews had expected a triumphalistic Messiah and they thought He would take Israel (His people) back by force. They did not understand that He was to be the atoning sacrifice for sin. That was the purpose of God sending His Son to Earth. How could He have been the Savior otherwise? I'm not sure what you believe Jesus' role was. Can you explain that to me?

Grace and peace,

Fiona :)


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Gracefaith wrote:

They (the Jews) did not understand that He was to be the atoning sacrifice for sin. That was the purpose of God sending His Son to Earth.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend gracefaith

I think not even Jesus claimed that he was sent for tbe atomnement of the sins of others. This was a concept Paul and his Church tried to put in the month of Jesus. Jesus never died on the Cross, so he could not claim that.

Please quote Jesus words in his own original language which was Aamaic, as you know.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


sandieganliz 6 years ago

Wow, such knowledge!!


pixi676 profile image

pixi676 6 years ago

give me a little time and i will go against this for i am christian and mean no harm discrimination or offense but do not believe any of this and cannot see how anyone else does either. this is a disgrace i hope to set the record straight with you and your followers. thank you.


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Hi friend pixi676

Please take your time to respond. I don't mean any disgrace to anybody or any faith; this is what I think to be truthful and it is my expression of faith. I don't have any followers.

Jesus did not die on the Cross and it is a fact.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


pixi676 profile image

pixi676 6 years ago

hey thanks for allowing me some time i will get to you soon whether or not He died on the cross is your opinion(it might be fact according to your religion) because you only have one backup and it's an interpretation and it's a different kind of religion and Bible that you got it from. I am not going against you anymore but will give you the facts from the christian Bible


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Hi friend pixi676

You and any other Christians or non-Christians are welcome here to express themselves fully. It is a fact that Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


pixi676 profile image

pixi676 6 years ago

please read my hub about this subject. thank you very much. i do not mean any offense, harm or discrimination no matter what I say.


pixi676 profile image

pixi676 6 years ago

Now you can read my hub. It's called religious answers. Please pass it on to others and tell others about me. Thanks.


Bibowen profile image

Bibowen 6 years ago

Where do you get this idea that Jesus was not crucified and that his disciples had him "revived"? What is your basis for saying these things? The crucifixion is one of the best attested historical events surrounding the life of Jesus.

As for the wrappings, they did wrap the bodies. The story of Lazarus attests to this. Lazarus was so tightly bound that Jesus gave the command to have him "loosed."


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Hi friend Bibowen

Please read "Jesus in India" by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-indi...

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


Bibowen profile image

Bibowen 6 years ago

No, I'm not going to read the book. If you are presenting a position, then offer the evidence.


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

Hi friend Bibowen

Since you asked me; how I got the idea? So, I provided the link. In fact before this book was written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah and Second Coming of Jesus; hardly anybody had this concept.

Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews;and Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; hence if Jesus did show this sign; then he must not die a cursed death on Cross. This is enough of proof, if you believe in Jesus.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


Bibowen profile image

Bibowen 6 years ago

Jesus said that he would be in the "heart of the earth" for three days and three nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for the same. You can't infer from that statement whether or not he was speaking of death. But, second, analogies need not carry the burden of being exactly like what they are analogous to. The analogy is to show "likeness," not "exactness."


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings

I agree with you paar, my view is that Jesus was going through a ritualisic death and rebirth, may have actually been unconscious but not dead for the period until he rises. This kind of ritual transformation was common with various cults and relgions of the era pre-Julius Caesar. The cult of Mithras, the Greek Delphic and Eulesian mysteries, the Druids, the Egyptians, and many of the african Voudou cultures have ritual deaths for the transformation of a human leader into a divine messianic messenger. Upon awakening (usually on the 33rd year in most of them) the sleeper becomes embodied with the divine powers and is granted the voice of the holy ones, or ancient ancestors, one lament opinion. Blake4d


Bibowen profile image

Bibowen 6 years ago

blake4d....Even if these observations are true, what historical ground do you have to tie them to Jesus of Nazareth? The historical evidence from the New Testament is that he died. He was severely beaten. The soldiers apparently thought he was dead; they did not break his legs. But to insure that he was dead, they stabbed him with a spear wherewith blood and water proceeded. Certainly, he did not survive this event.

The theories that Jesus was revived or that he "swooned" in the tomb have been largely discarded. The best available evidence suggests that he died by crucifixion.


svetits profile image

svetits 6 years ago from United Kingdom

How could you be so wrong in your belief. Jesus died as he predicted in the scriptures and rose again on the third day in fulfilment of the scriptures. You can read the full account on St Matthews Gospel 27:27-66. Jesus was confirmed dead after the crucifixtion and hence his legs were not broken but to further confirm his death a soldier pierced his side with a spear and blood and water gushed out John 19:30-37.

The manner of the jews in burial is to wrap the dead in linen clothes with spices. Lazarus was buried this way before Jesus raised him from the dead on that undeniably glorious event. John 11:1-17,38-44. Jesus not only raised Lazarus from the dead, he asked for the grave clothes he was wrapped in, to be loosed. This alone disapproves your idea that the jews did not wrap the dead.

Listen friend, Jesus not only died, He arose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-7, Mark 16:1-9) and He is coming back again to rid the earth of all evil, and all those who rejected his sacrifice for our sins. 2 thess1:6-12.

He came as the lamb of God, paid the price for our sins in fulfilment of the scriptures John 1:29, through his death. Ascended to heaven to present his blood before the mercy seat in the holy of holies in heaven.

He is coming again, not as the lamb of God(sacrifice for sin) but as the Lion of the tribe of judah, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Rev 1:5-8. Are you ready to meet him my friend.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

Paarsurry, there are enough comments above which make it abundantly clear that Jesus died on a Roman cross as a sin sacrifice for the whole of mankind to redeem them back to God, that He was burried in a tomb and was subsequently resurected.

Ask yourself this, if it was all made up, why would thousands of Christians sacrifice their own lives as martyrs for a lie?

You think that because Mohammed's words are still with us today in the original text that this is evidence of thier validity. What evidence do you have that Gabriel actually spoke to Him? Who are the eyewitnesses? The Mormans also claim their Joseph Smith was visited by Gabriel in order to provide new revelations. Why is Islam so different?

Seeing as the Quran has a completely different message to the bible (which written by several writers independantly which are all in harmonny) why should we believe the Quran? How do you know Mohammed didn't make it all up? Satan comes in an apearance of an Angle of Light so perhaps your prophet was not talking to who he thought he was.

The bible is clear that all who deny Jesus is God come in the flesh is of the anti-christ. I rest my case.


jreuter profile image

jreuter 6 years ago from Portland, Oregon

"Jesus did not die on the cross and that is a fact?"

Wow, based off of 40 words from the Koran, you've made a statement at complete odds with the historical account. I challenge you, find me one historical document from the first century after Christ's death that even slightly corroborates your assertion. Unsurprisingly, you cannot, because Mohammed was incorrect. I find it nearly incomprehensible that you would attempt to deny the crucifixion by citing the New Testament. Is it not bordering on the absurd to ignore the vast amount of statements verifying the death of Jesus in the New Testament because someone hurried to his tomb? Yet again, this is but one more example of the sheer bankruptcy of Islamic apologetics. You claim to love Jesus? Then please, explain to me your justification for denying his very words!


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

You seem to be angry; why is it so?

Thanks


jreuter profile image

jreuter 6 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Perhaps you are confusing anger with incredulity. Anger insults and demeans, whereas I pose questions in light of a fantastic assertion (Jesus did not die on the cross). Care to offer an answer? Or should we just discuss emotions? ;)


paarsurrey 6 years ago

Hi friend jreuter

Please read my previous arguments on the subject here and give comments on them; there are several of them.

Thanks


i believe in Yeshuah 6 years ago

why must Muslim keep attacking the truth of bible?

because the islam faith cannot stand if the bible truth stand. SIMPLY the bible say that the Jesus (Yeshuah) is the saviour also the last prophet.

While Muhamad claim he is the last prophet.

SO 1 one them must be Lier


skipper112 profile image

skipper112 6 years ago from Sydney Australia

next paarsuarrey will tell you Jesus died a peacefull death in India,I must also tell you he is not a true Muslim and cannot speak for Islam, do not ask a hard question or paarsuarey will run away with his tail between his legs never to come back


skipper112 profile image

skipper112 6 years ago from Sydney Australia

this is FACT no one came down from the cross alive, it just never happened. Paarsuarrey anybody that claimes he did is living in fairy land. Do you have anybody you can attack except my Lord Jesus Christ.! You will never rewite history with or without the Quran, let us see if you can attack any other religion, or are you so scared of Jusus you can only attack with nothing to support you NOTHING lets see if you will alow my comment


paarsurrey 6 years ago Author

@skipper112 said:

this is FACT no one came down from the cross alive, it just never happened.

Paarsurrey says:

There were two thief who were put on the Cross the same time Jesus was put on the Cross; they were also not dead when they were delivered from the Cross; to make them die their bones were broken.

Pilate had a soft corner for Jesus so an under hand dealing was made with him and his bones were not broken so that he does not die.

So your point that nobody came down from cross alive is repudiated, sorry.


Amanda Severn profile image

Amanda Severn 5 years ago from UK

Hi Paarsurrey. I had never considered this version of events as a possibility, but in a logical way, it does make sense. I know very little of the Koran, except that some stories are nearly identical to those in the Bible. I would really like to hear more about how and where these joint tales occur, especially the one that you mention above.


paarsurrey 5 years ago Author

If one reads the Bible intently, the points mentioned by me can be easily understood from the Bible. Quran only hints on the natural death of Jesus.


Christian 5 years ago

Let’s be honest here. The Islamic religion has NO documentation to support anything in regards to Christ and most of their beliefs are the same as the Old Testament in the Bible. Having said that, all the old testament documents are mostly archived in the Vatican. So most of the old beliefs of Muslims are based on documents stored in the Vatican. Sounds more like a cheap shot of someone grasping at straws to knock down Christianity. Good luck with that one buys. Jesus died and rose again. Mohammed died and stays dead.


paarsurrey 5 years ago Author

Jesus died on the Cross and rose again from the literal dead is a myth created by Paul and the church. Jesus did not write any Bible or Gospel that is stored in Vatican.


libby101a profile image

libby101a 5 years ago from KY

Paar, no offense but Muhammad never wrote anything either...for he could not read or write but his words are all in the Qu'ran as though he spoke them! So... in your views as listed above...then we are not to take any of the Qu'ran either because Muhammad clearly did not write any of it??? Hmmm!!

What if you are wrong Paar? What if Paul was actually called by God? What if Jesus did actually die on the cross? What if Muhammad was actually the one who corrupted the word to your people? He was one man who claimed quite a bit--yet there was no proof of any of it!

I curious...what if you are wrong Paar? The Bible clearly states that there are many who will be led by false prophets! Jesus never mentioned the coming of Muhammad... he said that there would be false prophets coming after him...and the blind would lead the blind and they would all fall in the ditch!

Since Muhammad never actually wrote anything in his own handwriting...then we should assume nothing said of him is truth! This is your own analogy of Jesus! Jesus had many witnesses who wrote about him! They all gave Jesus words... and all said he died on the cross and rose on the third day! A multitude of people saw him rise into the clouds when he ascended! What if you are wrong Paar? I ask because I care!


Rev. Ty Clenney 5 years ago

Rome sealed the tomb with a seal. Roman soldiers kept guard over the tomb and seal. The Stone weighed 2 tons rolled off into a circled trough. Who rolled the stone away,broke the seal and killed or ran off the Roman guard that would die if they left their post. The apostles were in hiding fearing for their lives. Are we to believe that Mary, Mary Magdalene and other women broke the seal, killed the soldiers, rolled the 2 ton stone up out of the trough, upwraped him and led him out? God and the angles rolled the stone away and the soldiers fell back in fear as Jesus resurected from the dead. Jesus us rhe world's only hope. Period.


paarsurrey 5 years ago Author

I think Bible does not mention of any such seal.


Sister Mary Theresa 5 years ago

Rev Ty - your grammar and spelling are atrocious! And no one can prove anything either for or against Jesus actually dying on the cross. The Bible can't be trusted because it was written by the church for the church and we all know how effed up the church has always been since day 1. And the Quar'an is also not going to report the facts in an accurate light, as that embodies stories of a different faith altogether. The Church has done their job of wrangling you all in...nice and tight. To any one who believes any ancient written text to be the whole honest truth - I feel sorry for you. You are short-sighted and a coward. Jesus did not die. He lived and escaped and went on to even have children and a family. He was a man, not the son of God, because there is no God. Peace.


Christiansoldier 5 years ago

First of all your very ignorant about the story his deciples didn't get the body joesph one disciple did. Their are also a movie where the catholic church gets the best scientist(mostly) athiest from around the WORLD! They studied it proved it's date and that who ever was wrapped in this cloak they studied was brutally beaten whipped thorns in head nails in hands and feet! Guess what while your reading this comment he is with you he died for you. He bled for you. What will you do for him don't buy into the Muslim propaganda or athiest and there fancy words! I'm not afraid of it Romans 1:16 "I'm not ashamed" thank you Jesus for giving me the perseverance to never give up and the chance to share your love.


eric you 5 years ago

if jesus did not die on the cross he would get married to mary magdenle, they would have kids, he would still be god's son he would live until aged 97 where he dies of a heart attack or stroke the body is on the floor with jesus's blood running out. he would be buried and he would rise from the dead. his kids will go travel around the world. if someone dies at a young age of 33 and born around the same month of jesus's birth he or she maybe the great grandchild of jesus himself.


Artiewhitefox 5 years ago

Jesus did die when he said into thy hands I commit my spirit. Jesus laid down his life on the cross. Because he laid his life that was perfect for us he was able to take it again. When he rose from the dead he did not have blood in him for Jesus said6o his disciples in the a locked room, spirit does not have flesh,and bone like you see me have. Jesus died,and has a different kind of body when he raised up from the dead.


Artiewhitefox 5 years ago

Jesus died when he said into thy hands I commit my spirit. Jesus laid down his life on the cross. Because he laid his life that was perfect for us he was able to take it again. When he rose from the dead he did not have blood in him for Jesus said6o his disciples in the a locked room, spirit does not have flesh,and bone like you see me have. Jesus died,and has a different kind of body when he raised up from the dead.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

Hey brother! Short snd sweet. Just the way I like it. Good chops! Looking forward to more. These are good and tight. I would like to see what you can do with other subjects, but you can keep these coming. God's not shook about smart people thinking. I'll tell you about Sid Depner some day. He gave me a hand!


Mathew James profile image

Mathew James 4 years ago

Jesus was bruised faithfully delivering God's message to the Jews. Just as the Gospel has been bruised by the Jews and Christians.

So far on these posts it sounds like paarsurrey might be correct. There has not been an argument that can stand against what he has presented.


formosangirl profile image

formosangirl 4 years ago from Los Angeles

This is so fascinating. I went and watched 4 of the videos on Jesus in India and will watch the rest tonight. Very persuasive and logical theory considering that it fills in the gap of Jesus's life in the missing years of 12-30.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

@Mathew James

@formosangir

Thanks for your comments; it gives a lot of encoragement.


Mathew James profile image

Mathew James 4 years ago

a good argument for Jesus not dying on the cross is that right before they took him down, the centurion pierced him in the side and blood came out. That would only happen if Jesus was still alive.


rLcasaLme profile image

rLcasaLme 4 years ago from Dubai, United Arab Emirates

Matthew 16:21

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

If He did not die,then the Father who told Him that He should die just lied.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

@rLcasaLme

The Creator God who Jesus used to say God-the-Father; did not say to Jesus "be killed"; the scribes have misunderstood .


rLcasaLme profile image

rLcasaLme 4 years ago from Dubai, United Arab Emirates

Then, if we will not believe what the scribes had written, then that would make the whole bible lose its credibility.

If you don't believe what the bible say, then I'm afraid, we have nothing to talk about.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

In principle NT Bible is not written by Jesus; so why it should be believed in where it is incorrect and against the teachings of OT Bible which Jesus believed in?

Christians don't believe that the Gospel writers were innocent; they could make mistakes and sin.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

In principle NT Bible is not written by Jesus; so why it should be believed in where it is incorrect and against the teachings of OT Bible which Jesus believed in?

Christians don't believe that the Gospel writers were innocent; they could make mistakes and sin.


Mathew James profile image

Mathew James 4 years ago

The Bible is corrupt and it has lost its credibility. The Qur'an is the only pure Word of God left in the world.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

Be more careful.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Please read Matthew 27:57-62 Now as it was late in the afternoon, there came a rich man of Arimathea named Joseph, who himself had become a disiple of Jesus. 58- This man went up to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commended it to be given over. 59-And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in clean fine linen 60- and laid it in his new memorial tomb, which he had quarried in the rock-mass, and after the rolling a big stone to the door of the memorial tomb he left. 61- But Mary Magdalene and the other Mary continued there, sitting before the grave. 62-The next day which was after the preparation, It was in the next few chapters that the Priests came before Pilate to ask the tomb to be sealed. Jesus was wrapped in preparation for his funeral. But, since he died right before the Sabbeth he could not have a funeral until the sabbeth was over. That is why he was wrapped, that way his body would stay clean until the funeral.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Please forgive me, I meant to spell Sabbath, not Sabbeth


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

Don't waste your breath. This is a Muslim who spends all of his time trying to discredit Christianity instead of drawing others to Allah with a positive message of his own.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

Thanks for your in put; please note that Matthew of Gospel was not an-eye witness; he has only guessed the things.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

But I am all in favour of Jesus; and want to spread what he believed in and he acted on; I love his true teachings.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

Spelling don't matter much; it is OK.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Thank you Parrsurrey, sometimes I go to fast, and make mistakes.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

He taught that he had to go to the cross. The sin of mankind was nailed to it with him. It is a matter of Roman record that he died. The grave was sealed and guarded, and you couldn't pay a Roman centurion enough to break that seal. He rose on the third day, like he taught that he would. He has sent "a comforter of another kind", like he taught.

Now, if you don't believe that, then you don''t believe in the teachings of Jesus, and you should stick to presenting your own beliefs without degrading the beliefs of others. That is the American way. You would do well to adopt it.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 4 years ago from Southern Georgia

@WD--Not trying to start an argument with you as I respect your opinion on many things, but I'm not aware of any factual Roman documents which describe Jesus at all--not to mention--his crucifixion.

Randy


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

I know it.

You are a good friend.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

I respect your faith and the Americans; but I am not American myself.

The expressions you have given in your post are not teachings of Jesus; it is your own understanding and is not a reality. Randy Godwin is right here (see his post below) that no real historical Roman documents mentiion of Jesus ever dieing on the Cross; I Paul made up this story in Rome; that does not make it a Roman document. You are welcome to differ with me; I don't mind.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

You are absolutely right there. Thanks for your input


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

There are writings that are not in the bible that do describe Jesus and his Crucifiction. In fact there are many.

Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Witnesses

There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life. Let’s look at these hostile accounts and see what they tell us about Jesus:

Thallus (52AD)

Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus’ life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)

Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)

Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome)." (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Tacitus (56-120AD)

Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)

Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.

Phlegon (80-140AD)

In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

"Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour." (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ... ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)

Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

Hi friend Michele Travis

Thanks for writing.

I want someone who has witnessed the event of crucifixion.

Did the year 52 AD denotes birth of Thallus or his death?

Similarly was Mara Bar-Serapion born in the year 70AD or he died.

Please don't mind; it is just a friendly discussion; you are always welcome to have different opinion; and a strong one.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

I do want to be unfriendly. I simply wish to list factual evidence. Randy Godwin stated there were no Roman Documents. But, there are are documents. That is all.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

The year 52 AD donates the year of the Thallus writing

and the year the year 70 AD donates the year of Mar Bar-serapion writing. Thank you for being kind. Some auther's can delete people's reponses. You are polite, and I resect your belief's.


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

Michele Travis

I don't mind.

But did I harm you anyway?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

No not at all, you are the most polite person I have ever met on hubpages. Many of the people here ( Christian, Athiest) are rude and say horrible things. You have done none of those things. And for that, I thank you.


Kevin Quinn 4 years ago

They found the Ark of the Covenant where Moses placed the 10 Commandments, in a cave under Golgotha.

http://arkofthecovenant2.blogspot.com/


paarsurrey 4 years ago Author

Hi friend Kevin Quinn!

I will take a look into the link.

Thanks for your input here.


Hilton 4 years ago

@ Michelle. I am not looking to fight but I want to inform you that most of the sources you quoted have been proven to be Christian's tempering with the real history and adding their own version in. For example the Mara Bar quote. Scholars have pointed out that the text refers to the 2 other figures in the text by actual name and yet does not refer to Jesus in name. This shows inconsistency in the text. Keeping in mind this letter is a transcript from the 6th or 7th century and not from 70 AD itself. The original does not exist and thus it can be argued that the original letter was altered to suit the needs of the transcriber(s). There are several other non Biblical documents that supposedly support claim to Jesus living that have been refuted by scholars. Thallus for example was describing a solar eclipse. It should be noted Africanus who quoted Thallus was a 3rd century Christian writer who was trying to document history. He used Thallus as supporting evidence. The problem is that none of the other cotemporary historians recorded this event. Josephus, Pliny nor Seneca. Josephus would certainly have mentioned it. And so one can go on and on about supposed supporting evidence for Jesus' existence and for that matter, his death.


Hilton 4 years ago

I should add that the Pliny reference is probably the strongest of all references but this only helps in proving the existence of early Christians but not evidence on how Jesus died. One of the biggest problems on Christians hands is the need to show a first hand account of Jesus' life and his death. There is no such as the gospels were written well after Jesus' time.


Chris 4 years ago

HI,

I have a question for Muslims:

If Jesus never died and went straight to heaven, then he must be more than just a man, like Mohammad was. To me it is strange that Muslims would say Jesus never died (to this day) and still say he was just like other prophets.

Now you tell me, what sort of man is incapable of dying? I have never heard of such a man. I have heard of God not being able to die. And that's exactly the attribute your Quran gives Jesus: not ever dying. In fact he is coming back to earth some day. While Muhammad is ... well no one knows where he is really.

You already know, as Muslims, that Jesus had the power within him to perform miracles. You also know that Muhammad's miracles were not from himself in the form of actions through his body. He simply had miraculous experiences, often without any witnesses by the way. Which is odd, since God in the New Testament makes it his business to make sure that all the miracles have witnesses. Otherwise, what's the point?

I would like Muslims to think about this. Especially the fact that your own Quran gives Jesus the attribute of not being able to die, while Mohammad definately died, like a man. Every man dies. So if someone does not die, surely he is more than a man. Am I correct in this?

Greetings


annonimous 4 years ago

I dont understand you people, seeing things like this really annoys me because you all believe in books that where written by randomers, we all know that the christian bible is a hoax, flip sake in the old testament it clearly stats in pslam 91 that no harm will come to Jesus, the new testament is a load of balls the church have you all brainwashed how you all dont see that I do not know, you are brought up and taught the bible since you were kids to believe it never questioning it because as I child you believe what older people say is true and its school so it must be all truth, but why you brain washed idiots can't see for yourselfs that the bible is a lowed of bullshit :/....jesus was a new not christain there was no such thing as Christianity then....you have all been brainwashed by the church, why would they hide things? Kill people like they did? Lock the documents away? If it was all true why not let us see these documents? Jesus was a man and only a man he was nothin' divine, how you people can be so nieve is beyond me, think for yourself use your own head. Nobody can die and rise we call that now as zombies.....yet zombies dont exist. Jesus did not die on the cross and was most defenitly not ressurected. How you people can jus believe what a book says is so dumb. Like how can a good so forgiving not forgive Lucifer for what he did? Why would there be a judgment day if he forgives all? Wer is this god no one has ever seen or heard him to this day and the earth is billions of years old......also Jesus or je zues as it is correctly pronounced has the numuric value of 666, Jesus said I am the morning star, Lucifer is the morning star you all have been decieved by jesus, a stupid fictional book and the church. Start living your lives and enjoy them dont wasn't them bowing down and surving fictional characters, all religions have worshipped gods, Mayans, sumerians,egyptions,Greeks and norse etc because the want to believe in a higher purpose. That is what we as humans do, dinosaurs existed before us so was that a failed attempt by god coz in the 7days of creation I dont remember dinosaurs do you? Mans footprints have been recently found with dinosaurs which suggest we lived among them......my point is all of you Jesus and christian believers step back and think, why do you believe in a book that was written by randoms? Jesus never said make Christianity so how can you be so dumb, look at the world now with all its wars and distruction dien and cancer wer is ur god in this world wer is ur Jesus! We all suffer because its life not because a magic man in the skies wants us too, live your lifes enjoy them and stop with the bible and its fiction......peace, p.s sorry for grammer and spelling im annoyed


annonimous 4 years ago

Should say 'jesus was a jew not christian'


Angie 4 years ago

only 1 thing you need to reason through in this rebuttal.... a few people may be willing to go along with something they know is fake, but noone would go along with something they KNOW is fake, when it comes to the point of torture, suffering, imprisonment, watching family members tortured, and dying for your cause...if you know its fake. Not possible. Someone might fake it for a while, but the disciples were beaten, imprisoned, martyred, burned, one was even boiled in hot oil, and then killed. Would you do it for something you "went along" with as fake? The answer is simple, no one would. They knew the truth.... Jesus is alive.

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