John and Jesus: About BAPTISM

Mat 3:17 "...behold, a voice out of the heavens said, 'This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.'"
Mat 3:17 "...behold, a voice out of the heavens said, 'This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.'"
Tongue of Fire over William Branham
Tongue of Fire over William Branham

About Baptism

John the Baptist said in Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mat 3:16 depicts the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist: "When Jesus had been baptized, He immediately came up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens opened up for Him, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on Him." Some people believe this is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit. This is a misconception because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and in Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead [Deity] bodily (Col 2:9). The voice of God was heard at this moment saying, "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." (ref John 12:30)

Did you know Jesus never baptized anyone while He walked the earth (John 4:2)? Do you know what His baptism is? It's called the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus (the Spirit of God) as confirmed in John 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper (Parakletos, which means Advocate, Paraclete, Comforter, Counselor and Helper), that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

John 4:23 states, "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers."

In Acts 1:4 Jesus told His disciples to stay in Jerusalem and to wait for what the Father had promised. In verse 5, Jesus says, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." In verse 8, Jesus told them that they would receive POWER after the Holy Spirit has come upon them and they shall be His witnesses throughout all the world.

The Baptism of John
The Baptism of John

Baptism of John (Water)

There is at least one Christian church that teaches that water baptism actually forgives sins. This is based on Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." I bolded the words based on their understanding of this passage. However, "the name of Jesus Christ" should have been bolded, who remits (forgives) our sins.

Even when we are told to forgive others, they must first repent before we forgive them. (Luke 17:4)

Again, let's look at four passages that confirm water baptism is that of repentance (not forgiveness):

Mat 3:6 "and they were being baptized by him [John] in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins."

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 19:4 "Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'"

John 4:1-2 "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)," Why wasn't Jesus baptizing in water? Because no one could receive the baptism of the Spirit until their sins were forgiven through the cross.

Acts 18:25-26 show us that a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, instructed in the way of the Lord and teaching accurately the scriptures, was only acquainted with the baptism of John.

Acts 19:2-6 explains it all! It is an account where Paul asked believers, “'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.' So Paul asked, 'Then what baptism did you receive?' 'John's baptism,' they replied.

In Verse 4, Paul says, "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'

Baptism in water is a reflection of the death and burial of our old man, and the resurrection into the new man in Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 5:17 states, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

If we stop at water baptism and do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we "have the form of godliness, but deny the POWER thereof" (2 Tim 3:5).

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Baptism of the Spirit (Jesus)

John the Baptist said in Mat 3:11 that "He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Let's look at the words of Jesus in Mark 10:38: "But Jesus said to them, 'You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

  • Let's look at the definition of baptism found in the Strongs Greek 908 1. used tropically of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed.
  • The definition of Fire (pur) is G4442 fig: strife, trials

In Acts 1:8 Jesus told His disciples, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses [martus - martyrs] unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

The disciples received the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, which gave them the power to become Apostles and endure what was ahead of them (Eph 4:11-12).

Acts 2:1-4 tell us what happened on the day of Pentecost: "And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Now, not everyone filled with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:11). Indeed, they witnessed powerfully and 3,000 souls believed and were water-baptized that day! (Acts 2:41)

Acts 8:15-16 show us that merely being water-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is not enough!: "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"

Acts 10:44-48 shows us that the Gentiles received the baptism of the Spirit while hearing the Word of God preached by Peter. They also began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now, keep in mind that they had to be forgiven of their sins before the Holy Spirit could indwell them! They were forgiven before they were baptized in water. Indeed, after receiving the baptism of the Spirit of God, they went to be water baptized as an ordinance of their faith.

Acts 18:25-26 show us that a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, instructed in the way of the Lord and teaching accurately the scriptures, was only acquainted with the baptism of John. Verse 26 states that when Priscilla and Aquila heard him speaking boldly in the synagogue, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Acts 19:2-6 explains it well:

It is an account where Paul asked believers, “'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.' So Paul asked, 'Then what baptism did you receive?' 'John's baptism,' they replied.'

In Verse 4, Paul says, "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.' When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”

Some think Paul re-baptized these believers in water. However, if you understand Jewish baptism (called 'mikveh'), no one was to touch the one being baptized (fully submersed in water). So, this 'laying on of hands' was in accordance with the impartation/sanctification of the Holy Ghost and His power.

  • Acts 13:2-3 "While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.' Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."

How do we receive the Holy Spirit? ASK God!!

Luke 11:13 states, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

John 16:24 states, "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

To be “born of the Spirit" (John 3:6) is to be "baptized in the Spirit” (Mark 1:8). Again, Jesus said in John 15:16, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.

Eph 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit, just also as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

So what is this "one baptism"? 1 Pet 3:21 confirms water baptism (the putting away of the filth of the flesh) just like physical circumcision, does not save anyone. It is the circumcision of the heart (repentance) and baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves and seals us until the day of redemption. Thus John 15:16, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” Eph 4:30 states, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Let's review the three truths about repentance, forgiveness and power to live the Spirit-led life:

  • Water baptism is a public confession of our repentance.
  • The blood of Christ forgives our sins, whereby we are saved.
  • We are "born of the Spirit" and endued with power when we are baptized in the Spirit.

Now, let's look at four examples that show that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, people can receive the forgiveness of sins before the act of water baptism, and people can receive the baptism of the Spirit upon or after being water baptized.

Water baptism not necessary for salvation:

The thief on the cross was never baptized in water, but he received his salvation that day-that moment because of his faith in our Lord. He couldn't be baptized in water; it was too late. However, Jesus forgave his sins and saved him because he confessed Him as his Lord and Savior.

Believers forgiven and received the baptism of the Spirit before being water baptized:

Per Acts 10:44-48 above, new believers, immediately upon receiving Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Right after that, they then went to be baptized in water.

Believers receive the baptism of the Spirit at the time of being water baptized:

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Believers received the baptism of the Spirit at a later time, after being baptized in water:

Those in Acts 19:1-5 believed and were baptized in water, but didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until later.

My Testimony:

Like those in Acts 19:1-5, I was saved in a Baptist Church. I knew only the baptism of John and didn't understand what it meant to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, that of yielding to His leadership and Lordship in my life and thus receiving His power! This didn't happen until many years later when someone like Priscilla and Aquila, named Paul and Gretta took me aside and explained to me the way of God more accurately. They laid hands on me in prayer and I received the baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I tell of my experience in my hubs Interpretation of Spiritual Tongues and Healed of Spinal Meningitis!

Evidence of Salvation

How do we know we are saved and have received the Holy Spirit of God? Mat 7:16 states, “You will know them by their fruits”, which are listed in Gal 5:22. But, we cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit unless we have the Holy Spirit!  The Holy Spirit gives us "gifts", which are listed in 1 Cor 12:8-15. Mark 16:17 tells us, "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." I invite you to read my hub Fruit & Gifts of the Spirit.

In Danger of Blaspheming the Holy Ghost!

In Matthew 12, Jesus cast out demons and was accused of being Beelzebub (Satan). His response to the Jewish accusers was this: "Whoever speaks a word against [blasphemes] the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against [blasphemes] the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

We see tongues manifested consistently as a sign of baptism of the Spirit. Based on 1 Cor 13:8-10: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." Now look at verse 12: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." I don't know about you, but a face would mean a face, not a Bible.

As Paul exhorted the church in Corinth, 1 Corinthians 13:13 states, “But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE", we must not ignore the next verse, which is Chapter 14:1: "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts...". Truly, the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, nor are they to be called "of the devil", for that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit! Be blessed in His Name. Amen.

More by this Author


Comments 55 comments

no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

Our baptism makes us truly one in Christ.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

no body, Amen brother!


drpastorcarlotta profile image

drpastorcarlotta 7 years ago from BREAKOUT MINISTRIES, INC. KC

GREAT HUB sis!! God is using you for a special reason, YOU'LL SEE!!! Love you!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

There is no more greater desire of my heart than to please Him and love His children, my brothers and sisters! Hallelujiah! Thank you, drpastorcarlotta, for this prophetic word. Amen!!


hct 6 years ago

Dear Judah's Daugther

I read about your post on water baptism. I wish to discus more on some points raised in the message.

How shall we start?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Ask away, hct :-) I might suggest you first read two more of my hubs: "Religion versus Salvation" and "Water to Wine: More Than A Miracle". Would you do that for me? I'll place the links at the base of this hub. God bless you!


hct 6 years ago

Judah's Daughter

I am more concern on the interpretation of the versus quoted,before and after the versus. Off course the whole story or event is important.

Mat 3:6 "and they were being baptized by him [John] in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins."

Let's look at the versus quoted by you as below:-

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

hct: I have no problem to believe that John's baptism is a baptism for the repentance.

Now consider this versus below. It stated clearly it is for the forgiveness of sins. This verse was spoken by Peter and I supposed the three thousand newly baptized believers were baptized by Peter or the other apostles.

My conclusion is that John's baptism is for repentance only but the baptism carried out by the apostles is for the remission of sins.This is the baptism which the Lord commanded the disciples to carry out(Matt 28:19)

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

hct:More evidence can be found in the following verse.

Acts 19:4 "Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'"

5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

hct: The believers in Ephesus only knew about the baptism of John which is for repentance. They were baptized again in the name of Jesus as the name of Jesus has the power to forgive sins.

Roman 6 shed more truth about the relationship between baptism and the crucification of Jesus.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I will read the two articles you posted. Thank you very much

Let pray that God will show us the truth of his words.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother, Thank you for your comment. I would just like to point out in Acts 2:38 that faith, which is birthed by repentance (realizing we're sinners in need of a Savior) forgives our sins; not the water. The water is symbolic of our repentance from death to life. Acts 19:4 tells us believers had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized with John's baptism of water, as the verse in full context shows us HOW Paul baptized them, by the laying on of hands. If we look at 1 Cor 1:17, Paul states he was not sent to baptize in water, but to preach. If people are saved by the hearing of the word, do you not find it interesting that Paul would not water baptize if it was necessary for salvation? Just some things to ponder. Hopefully, those two hubs will make this picture more clear.

I am definitely FOR water baptism, for we all must repent and follow the example of Jesus. However, I am not supportive of churches/believers that state one cannot be fully saved without water-baptism. Likewise, those who have believed and been water-baptized need to realize that, in itself does not save a person (Acts 19:4). We must receive the baptism of Jesus, that of the Holy Spirit. Each believer and God alone knows when this takes place (before/at/after water baptism). It's a definite, incredible experience.

I wish you a very blessed day, hct :-)


hct 6 years ago

Hi JD

My discussion here is to not to challenge anybody but to share with you and those who read it what I see from my perspective and judge it whether it is true or not.

I can't see in Acts 2:38 about your explanation that faith, which is birthed by repentance forgives our sins.Please elaborate.

JD says:Acts 19:4 tells us believers had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized with John's baptism of water, as the verse in full context shows us HOW Paul baptized them, by the laying on of hands.

hct: AS I mentioned earlier that John's baptism is only for repentance and Peter and the apostles' baptism (in the name of Jesus)is for the forgiveness of sins.

Paul initial question was to find out whether the believers in Ephesus have received the Holy Spirit. But when Paul discovered that they were only being baptized with the baptism of John, Paul baptized them again in the name of Jesus which is in accordance with the baptism as carried out by Peter and the apostles. Then Paul laid his hands on them and Holy Spirit fell on them.

I am of the view that baptism of water and the baptism of Holy Spirit are two entities and they are prerequite for salvation. Acts records many of the events where after water baptism they received the Holy Spirit(normal case).Cornelius case was different. While Peter was speaking to Cornelius's group the Holy Spirit fell on them. Peter later ordered them to be baptized with water in the name of Jesus.

Baptism of water is for the forgiveness of sin. Receiving the Holy Spirit is a testimony to us that we are sons of God and is a guarantee to our inheritance.

John 3:5 says Unless a person is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Roman 6:3-4 explains that when a person is baptized into Christ Jesus, he is baptized into his death. He is buried with Him through baptism into his death so that as Christ is raised from death, he may live a new life.

Baptism of water is important because spiritually we are dying with Him. We know that through his death on the cross his blood can wash away our sins. Baptism is the time when our sins are washed away.After baptism we are a new person.

In addition, as you said,one needs to repentance and believe(faith)in him, These are only a few initial requirements.

We shall deal with 1 Cor 1:17 later.

May God guide and bless us.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

hct, of course we don't need to "challenge" the issue, but to discuss, for there are many who believe water baptism is a requirement for salvation. The thief on the cross, however, was not baptized in water upon confession of faith, which saved him. There truly is no exception.

John 3:5 I do not interpret as referring to water baptism. What are babies born of? The womb, which is filled with embriotic fluid (water - i.e. when a mother's "water breaks"): born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. To be born of the Spirit is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, in my understanding and faith.

Blessings ~~


hct 6 years ago

JD, many used this "thief on the cross" incident to explain that salvation can only be obtained by just believing alone and ignored other requirements/teachings in the bible.

I agreed strongly that believing in the Lord as the saviour can save a person but not alone. If one does not believe in the Lord and that water baptism forgives sins but get baptized for any other reasons,the baptism will not be effective.(Explained earlier death of Jesus and the baptism in Roman 6)

The thief incident was an exception case. The reasons are as follows:

1. He was saved because Jesus personally told him that he will be in paradise with Jesus as a result of his belief/faith.

2. He was unable to come down to receive baptism of repentance.

3. Baptism of water for the forgiveness of sins was carried out after Jesus' death and resurrection, that is during the apostles' times.

Like Nicodemus, we find difficulty in understanding John 3:5 about 'born again of water and the spirit' as there were no clear definition for it.

The best thing to do as always is to refer to other bible verses and the events that took place after Jesus ascended and specifically what the apostles did during their time. The clue that we can find is the Baptism of Water and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as preached and carried by the apostles.

Titus 3:5 (New International Version)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

It is not because the physical water can wash away our sins but rather the belief/faith that Jesus died for us and his death through water baptism washes away our sins.

Now I proceed with 'born of the Spirit'

I agreed with you that 'to be born of spirit' is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what the apostles did as promised by the Lord. They were told to wait in Jerusalem for the promised Holy Spirit.

On the day of the Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit. This is what I meant by 'born of the spirit'

Peace to you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

hct, I take it you haven't read my other two hubs?...Now, either water forgives sins or the blood of Jesus forgives sins; not both. God doesn't change; God doesn't make "exceptions". Repentance is the purpose of the baptism of John ~ symbolic of dying to the old man and being raised a new man in Christ Jesus.

Regarding John 3:5, consider the context "born of the flesh" - is water baptism being born of the flesh?; "the will of man" - if baptism is by the will of man, it is not by the will of God. The conception of babies, on the other hand, is by "the will of man". Even Nicodemus interpreted what Jesus said as referring to the mother's womb (John 3:4). One must be born (of the flesh) in order to be "born again" (of the Spirit).

You speak of considering all the other passages of scripture, and that's what's here in this hub. Jesus never baptized anyone in water, but yet He baptizes us with fire and with the Holy Spirit. When the Word says in Eph 4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," I believe that means ONE baptism that saves ~ either in water or of the Holy Spirit (I believe it to be the latter, for it is the Holy Spirit of God that we are "born of the Spirit" and are sealed until the Day of Redemption - Eph 4:30).

Some people believe in more than One LORD, but I am not one of those people either. I believe God is One LORD, and have written a hub about this called "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS", also blessed by a Messianic Jewish website; for they do not believe in a "trinity", but One LORD, just as the Bible says. Jesus is God, our Creator and Savior; Praise Him. He baptizes us unto salvation ~ His holy blood forgives our sins by faith and nothing else.

We will need to choose to disagree on this topic ~ as for me, I was water baptized and encourage everyone to be also; I see it as a beautiful, public confession of faith (Mat 10:32; Luke 12:8); however, those who do not get water-baptized due to special circumstances certainly should never be told they are not saved. Amen :-) God bless and peace to you, too.


hct 6 years ago

Hallelujah

This is what you have said and my reply:

JD:Now, either water forgives sins or the blood of Jesus forgives sins; not both.

hct: The baptism of water conducted by John was for repentance. Water baptism conducted by Peter & the apostles was for the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38)

Why baptism can remove sins? It is the presence of the blood of Jesus during the time of baptism spiritually because Roman 6 explains that baptism of water is like dying with Jesus and resurrect with him (reborn).

JD:Regarding John 3:5, consider the context "born of the flesh" - is water baptism being born of the flesh?; "the will of man" - if baptism is by the will of man, it is not by the will of God. The conception of babies, on the other hand, is by "the will of man". Even Nicodemus interpreted what Jesus said as referring to the mother's womb (John 3:4). One must be born (of the flesh) in order to be "born again" (of the Spirit).

hct: Nicodemus did understand what was the meaning of 'born again'. He argued that how could a grown man enter into his mother's womb and be born again. Jesus explained to him that he must be 'born of the water and spirit'.

It is a spiritual rebirth. Not a physical one. The process of water baptism is doing exactly that.

Whenever the apostles went preaching,they preached that water baptism was for the remission of sins. They laid hands on the believers so that they might received the Holy Spirit just as the apostles on the day of the Pentecost.

When a person has received baptism of water and spirit he is considered to have been 'born of water and spirit'

JD:When the Word says in Eph 4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," I believe that means ONE baptism that saves ~ either in water or of the Holy Spirit (I believe it to be the latter, for it is the Holy Spirit of God that we are "born of the Spirit" and are sealed until the Day of Redemption - Eph 4:30).

hct: The book of Acts record of about two issues, water baptism and receiving of the Holy Spirit incident.

'One Baptism' means 'only one correct baptism of water'

example some do not believe baptism has the power to forgive sins.

Please consider all the verses quoted.

Peace to you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

hct, yes “Hallelujah”!! God is Worthy of our Praise! AMEN.

Acts 2:38 is covered in this hub. There are too many scriptures supporting the fact that John’s baptism was for repentance, not remission of sins. It’s the Name of Jesus Christ that remits our sins (His blood). Let me ask you something: do you see ANYWHERE in the Bible that states the Apostles were ever re-baptized in water after the Day of Pentecost? I think not.

Do you think Jesus received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized in water? Now, think about this: He was conceived by and literally born of the Holy Spirit, which then indwelt Him bodily (Col 2:9). The fact that God’s Spirit descended upon Him like a dove does not mean He was “baptized in the Holy Spirit”. He also didn’t need to be water-baptized for the remission of sins ~ He was sinless. He did this to symbolize what He came to do: to die and rise again. John the Baptist was a prophet and for this very reason he baptized before and until Christ. Amen.

Earlier, you stated that the man in Acts 19:2 was re-baptized in water. There is no evidence of this. Paul laid his hands on him and he received the Holy Spirit. As I said in the prior paragraph, water baptism symbolizes the dying of Christ (dying to sin of the old man) and being resurrected with Him (a new creation in Christ) = repentance. Salvation is of the heart, not by any material work.

Please give scriptural references as to your statement, “Whenever the apostles went preaching, they preached that water baptism was for the remission of sins.” If all you have is Acts 2:38, that isn’t a strong enough verse by itself. It must be confirmed.

In your other comment on “Water to Wine: More Than A Miracle”, you referenced 1 John 5:8. I will quote to you here as I wrote there in response: “Let’s talk about water and blood and how it correlates with being ‘born of the flesh’ and ‘born of the Spirit’ ~ they are directly aligned. We are born of our mother’s womb (water) and born again by the blood of Christ (forgiveness of sins). Because of this, God’s Spirit (aka the Spirit of Christ) now indwells us and seals us. These are the three that bear witness. Jesus was born of the flesh (water), shed His blood on the cross (forgiveness of sins) and sends us the indwelling of His Spirit. The gospel simply stated.”

Who told you ‘One Baptism’ means ‘only one correct baptism of water’? There’s only "one baptism", and that is of the Spirit (being born again)…the baptism of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the scripture is not true; there would be "two baptisms" AND the baptism of the Spirit would then be "incorrect", according to your logic. Blessings to you :-)


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Judah's Daughter: I started reading my Bible 48 years ago, but never really gave much thought or consideration to what I was reading, although I knew that something in my life, actually several things in my life was not in accordance with God's Word.

Over the years God has constantly called me back to various scriptures to point out the "Catholic" faith teachings that were not scripturally correct. Each time with each wrong teaching, I would correct it in my life and try to point out the same teaching to others.

Last year as you know, I began really listening to God and His Holy Spirit, and I began writing here on Hub Pages. Day by day week by week God through Holy Spirit opened my mind to various truths, and asked me to write for God, His Truth, which I would faithfully do, but as I wrote there was one thing Holy Spirit kept reminding me that needed changing in my life. He pointed out very powerfully that "Infant Baptism" is a big NO NO, one that I had to get corrected inorder to make things right in my life.

After a year of Holy Spirit insisting, I could no longer refuse to listen any longer. Humbly, I am ready to obey. The Catholic church refuses to accommodate me so I turned to a nearby Baptist Church. I asked one of the pastors to accommodate me and He agreed. In May sometime I will finally receive the full immersion baptism to replace the sprinkling I received as a baby, and this time my eyes will be wide open and the choices will be of my own free will not spoken by someone else on my behalf.

Thanks be to God!

Dave.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

The saints of God (and that includes YOU) rejoice, brother Dave! You have repented of false doctrine and have obediently chosen to abide in God's Word. His Spirit is faithful to deliver those who truly seek Him and you have and are. You will be receiving the baptism of repentance, making that public confession of faith before the saints (called 'elohim' in Ps 8:26/John 8:24)!!

There is one baptism by John and one by Jesus ~ that is, the baptism of fire, of the Holy Spirit. As you can see in this hub, the baptism of Jesus can happen prior to, at or after water baptism. It is a total immersion in His Spirit. He fills you to overflow; your will is completely submitted to His, just as the Son of God did the will of the Spirit of God in Him, His Father.

God truly came in the flesh, the Son, and we rejoice in the fact He has THE NAME, "I AM" ~ Yeshua is the name above all names, whereby we must be saved. God is our Savior and LORD (Is 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4; Acts 4:2). Verses on God our Savior: http://75.102.32.213/search?access=p&entqr=0&outpu...

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Hallelujah!


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Dear sister thank you so very much for the Bible Link. I can use this so very much as I refer to all of Almighty God's Word, to fill me to overflowing with his knowledge as He seems fit to share with me.

God bless you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

PRAISE GOD, brother Dave! I use this Bible tool like food and water, for spiritual survival against false doctrines that have and are yet flooding the Church. There are tabs there, so when you open a verse and want to see the Hebrew or Greek words and their meanings, just click on 'Hebrew' or 'Greek' and the whole verse, word by word will be there. Then, you can click on a word within that verse to see it's meaning in the original lanugage(s).

2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

The 'Parallel' tab will take you to a verse shown in all the available translations of the Bible; the search box is where you can type in a phrase such as "God and Savior" (as I did for you) to bring up all the verses that contain that phrase. It's AWESOME!!!

I have a hub called "How To Do An Inductive Bible Study" that may be of help to you as well: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-to-do-... . I love you in the love of the Lord!!


TED 4 years ago

JD said - The thief on the cross, however, was not baptized in water upon confession of faith, which saved him. There truly is no exception.

TED - Another reason why the thief did not have to be baptized was because he was still under the law, this was before the Church was born, so baptism was not a requirement as yet.

JD said - Earlier, you stated that the man in Acts 19:2 was re-baptized in water. There is no evidence of this.

TED - it clearly says in Acts 19:5 after they heard Pauls explanation, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. and then, after that, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.

So they were already baptized unto Johns baptism, and after hearing from Paul, they were baptized again, this time in the Name of Jesus.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

TED, you stated, "Another reason why the thief did not have to be baptized was because he was still under the law, this was before the Church was born, so baptism was not a requirement as yet."

Per the link provided below:

"John's baptism was an adaptation of the mikvah, or ritual immersion bath, that had been part of Jewish life for generations and symbolized a spiritual cleansing. It was used to consecrate a new beginning. Jewish men took a mikvah each Sabbath. Women took a mikvah after each monthly period. On Yom Kippur the High Priest took 7 mikvot (plural of mikvah) during the ceremonies. Jesus came to John for a mikvah at the beginning of His ministry.

The reason John had people take a mikvah was to show that they had changed their minds (repented) about their need for a Savior and were taking a new direction regarding their salvation. No longer would they focus on keeping the Law but would look instead to the coming redeemer whose arrival John was announcing. Once Jesus came, John's baptism of repentance was no longer needed, so it became a symbol of the believer's death and re-birth."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_John_the_Baptist...

You said, "it clearly says in Acts 19:5 after they heard Pauls explanation, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. and then, after that, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. So they were already baptized unto Johns baptism, and after hearing from Paul, they were baptized again, this time in the Name of Jesus."

That passage mentions nothing about being re-baptized in water. Paul simply laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, why would Paul say in 1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

It is NOT the water that cleanses us, as the Jewish Law practiced; it is the cross of Christ that does so. We should be exhorted not to put such value on mere water.


Ted 4 years ago

Thanks for replying, I love to discuss like this because it keeps me studying.

Back to Acts 19

Paul asked them if they received the Holy Ghost since they believed, and they said they had not even heard of any Holy Ghost, Pauls next question was ,"unto what then were you baptized?" Why would that matter? Why would he ask them how they were baptized if baptism was not necessary?

After Paul explained John's baptism in water unto repentance, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So if this is not water baptism (a re-baptizing) then how were they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus AFTER they heard Pauls preaching?

It's not possible nor scriptural for a man to lay hands on a person and proclaim them baptized in the name of Jesus. It says Paul laid hands on them AFTER they were baptized.

Many quote Paul saying Christ sent me not to baptize.... But this does not mean he did not baptize nor does it mean he was not qualified or authorized to baptize. Paul's main job was to preach the gospel establishing Churches wherever he went, setting up pastors to whom was the responsibility to baptize.

But Paul did in fact baptize some. In 1 Cor.1:14-17

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, (Corinthians)but Crispus and Gaius;

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

(Crispus, Gaius & the household of Stephanas were baptized by Paul) ref. Acts 18:8

Staphanas ref.1 Cor.16:15 His house was the first fruits of Achaia, Achaia is the region where Corinth resides, this took place back in Acts also, though Stephanas is not mentioned in Acts 18.

Very true that the water itself does nothing to cleanse us spiritually. Jesus said to baptize in His name, and the reason for that was For the Remission of sins. Jesus made it a requirement to obtain remission of sins. It is the obedience to the command to be baptized that gets our sins washed in His blood.

It is our spiritual burial, this is where God chooses to apply the blood of Christ to our record.

It is also when and how we take on His name, and put on Christ.

1 Peter 3:20-21

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, ''eight souls were saved by water. ''

''The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us'' (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, (OR Not the washing of dirt off the body) but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here Peter makes it clear that it is not the water or the washing of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

But he also emphasizes how that water baptism ''doth also now save us''

Paul explained in Romans & Colossians how that we are buried with Christ in & by baptism.

Baptism is our spiritual burial, it is a watery grave, and as Romans says IF we have been planted together in the likeness of His death so shall we be in the likeness of His resurrection.

The flip side is, if we have NOT been planted together in the likeness of His death neither will we be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Baptism is also called the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism,.... (Which is where the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh takes place) Also in baptism we are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God...

It is in baptism where God performs this operation of circumcision made without hands.

So if we are not baptized in His name then we are not buried with Him, and if we are not buried with Him we cannot be risen with Him either.

In baptism is where our sins are buried, when we repent we are dying out to sin and when we are baptized (buried) God washes our sins away by His blood, not the water itself but during baptism He applies His blood.

I know they baptized under the time of the law, but it was not a 'requirement' for salvation, so therefore the thief did not have to be baptized.

the Church was not yet born while Jesus was on earth, the Church was born on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 After His ascension, This is when the true Church started. Jesus clearly instructed His disciples to baptize people in water in His name For the Remission of Sins, and He told them this would begin in Jerusalem and then spread from there. And that is exactly were they we're when the Church was born, in Jerusalem. And they preached baptism in Jesus name from that day forward and it never changed unto this very day. Every example of baptism during the recordings of the Church spreading was in water in the name of Jesus Christ.

God Bless


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Ted,

You’ve been quite indoctrinated, inserting things the Bible does NOT say. For example, “Baptism is also called the circumcision of Christ”. It is NOT. Romans 2:29 clearly states, “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”

You asked, “Why would he [Paul] ask them how they were baptized if baptism was not necessary?” BAPTISM is NECESSARY; just NOT the baptism of WATER, but the baptism of FIRE (the Holy Spirit), which is OUR imputed righteousness (as the burnt offering of the Old Testament). This is the baptism that “now saves us”. There is ONE (1) LORD, ONE (1) FAITH AND ONE (1) BAPTISM (Eph 4:5).

You just stated correctly, “Paul explained John's baptism in water unto repentance” and “Very true that the water itself does nothing to cleanse us spiritually.” THEN you said water baptism “was For the Remission of sins. Jesus made it a requirement to obtain remission of sins. It is the obedience to the command to be baptized that gets our sins washed” (incorrect)…then you correctly state “in His blood”.

Read Acts 2:38 in sections: “(Repent and be baptized), every one of you, (in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins). And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit = baptism of fire.

Speaking of “eight souls were saved by water”, did Noah ever get buried in actual water? NO! Did the Red Sea ever bury the Israelites where they had to come up out of the water? NO! Who was their Savior? The LORD and He alone.

You rightly stated, “Here Peter makes it clear that it is not the water or the washing of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” Does water have anything to do with a good conscience toward God? NO! As you can see in this hub, multitudes received the baptism of fire (the Holy Spirit) BEFORE and AFTER being water-baptized.

You don’t think water baptism was a REQUIREMENT for salvation in the Jewish Law? Do you not think all those listed in Hebrews 11 were saved by faith? The Way of salvation has ALWAYS been the SAME ~ by FAITH. God fore-ordained His death on the cross at the consummation of the ages (Heb 9:26). Why would Moses (who DIED) be standing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, if he wasn’t officially ‘saved’? Come on, now.

What happened on the Day of Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel’s prophesy; it was not when the ‘Church’ was founded. The Church is called the Bride of Christ, meaning He is the Bridegroom. In Jewish Law, the betrothal is the same as a marriage. The LORD said in Jer 31:32 that He is the Husband to Israel, and we know not all the natural-born descendants are Abraham’s offspring, but all who live by FAITH (Gal 3:29)

Regarding the laying on of hands ~ Did you know that no hands were laid on anyone in Jewish baptism? Each person dunks themselves (face down) into the water three times. They were not permitted to be touched. THAT is the way mikvah was done when Jesus was baptized and in Jewish baptismals today. In fact, Jesus did NOT get baptized for the remission of sins, for He had no sin. He was fulfilling the Law. Likewise, John and Paul would not have laid hands on anyone to baptize them in water.

And ~ what did Jesus do? He never water-baptized anyone. He touched them (or they touched Him) and they were healed. Even in the book of Leviticus, when we see all the various sacrifices, hands were laid upon those animals before they were sacrificed. The Apostles would lay hands on those called by the Spirit to go out in the service of the LORD. Here is a topical study of the purpose for laying on of hands: http://topicalbible.org/l/laying_on_of_hands.htm

I am not against water-baptism. I am against the teaching that it is a requirement for salvation; that without it, a person’s sins are not forgiven; therefore, they are lost. That is FALSE. And, I am an adherent to the fact that if anyone is baptized in water, even the Holy Spirit, it must be in the name of the LORD Jesus.

God bless you as well.


Ted 4 years ago

Laying hands on people to baptize them in water is not the same thing as the subject of "The Laying On of Hands"

When people were baptized by the apostles the apostles had to put their hands on them to put them down into the water.

Jesus told the disciples to baptize all nations, Mat.28:19, Mark 16:16,

for the apostles to do the baptizing they had to lay hands on the people to put them down under the water.

John put Jesus down into the water

Mat.3:13

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Jesus came to john to be baptized OF HIM.

that is John doing the baptizing. no, Jesus did not baptize Himself.

And I never said Jesus was being baptized for any sins. That would be ridiculous.

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized in water by Philip, it says they both went down into the water and Philip baptized him. Acts 8:36,38

Paul said, in Corinthians that he baptized those people, they did not baptize themselves. 1 Cor.1:14-17

Baptism in water is burial, Romans 6:3-4

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

We are .....Buried With Him...... By water Baptism

If one is not baptized in water then they are not buried with Jesus.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is\gives life and not death nor buries us. The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death. So then Romans & Colossians (and many other scriptures) are speaking of water baptism.

Col.2:12 we are buried with Christ "by baptism",wherein (in Baptism) also ye are risen with him...

Again, without water baptism you are not buried with Christ.

And if we are not buried with Him, niether will we be risen with Him.

Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

without baptism in water you're not in Christ.

Also in baptism is where we take on His name.

Jesus said he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved Mark 16:16

That is faith with water baptism, together

That does not read, ...he that believeth and is saved should be baptized, it says "and is baptized shall be saved.

Faith with water baptism brings remission of sins.

Jesus said except a man be born of water AND the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom. John 3:5

Water and the Spirit, both together, get you into the Kingdom.

This is not speaking of water in the natural birth either, for in verse 3 He said "born Again" meaning a second time. So water from natural birth cannot be "again".

One without the other disqualifies a person from entering into the Kingdom.

Peter COMMANDED Cornelius and house to be baptized, AFTER receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, Acts 10:48 why command if not necessary for salvation? It was not just a symbolic ritual, it was necessary. For Peter, the one with the keys to the Kingdom (Mat.16:19), understood the importance of baptism to complete their new birth experience.

Jesus told him in Luke 24:47 "that repentance AND remission of sins should be preached in His name", so on Pentecost Peter preached "repent" theres the repentance part, "and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ" why Peter? "for the remission of sins" there's the remission part.

Repentance and water baptism in Jesus name brings remission of sins, that is faith in action. i.e. "believes and is baptized" as Jesus said

1 Peter 3:20-21 says "the like figure" meaning a type or shadow, as water saved Noah, water baptism "doth also now save us". That is what Peter said. The same man to whom Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, he oughta know. Mat.16:19

Yes, what happened on the day of Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joels prophecy, but that is also the birth & beginning of the New Testament Church.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

That’s quite a lengthy comment, Ted. Likewise, my answer is lengthy. Ask any Messianic Jew and they will tell you Jesus’ ‘immersion’ was that of ‘mikveh’. Per treeoflifeassembly.com, “Whenever possible, the Mikveh is ‘witnessed’ by a person who goes into the water with the one who is immersing himself. The job of the witness is to pass a small branch of some kind (usually hyssop) over the surface of the water each of the three times that the person immerses himself as proof that the person was totally immersed and that even their hair went totally under the water. The witness is also the person who usually says the appropriate blessing at the beginning and at the conclusion of the three immersions. It makes perfect sense when the Scriptures say that Philip immersed the Ethiopian even though he never touched him.”

In Leviticus, there were many offerings: one was a sin offering, another was a burnt offering. The sin offering, usually a bull or goat, had its blood sprinkled, its fat placed on the altar of burnt offering and the rest of its carcass tossed outside the city as refuse. The burnt offering, a ram, was totally consumed (same as being totally submersed) by fire, which represents total consumption by the Holy Ghost. Jesus shed His blood for our sin and NOTHING but His blood forgives our sin. We must repent and believe by faith in order for His sacrifice to cover us – it’s a consummation of the Covenant. Then, we MUST be baptized in the Spirit. Therefore, we don’t need ‘water’ to cleanse us or remit our sins whatsoever. Water-baptism (mikveh) is an act of obedience and symbolic of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and our death to the flesh and life in the Spirit, but it is not a requirement for one’s sins to be forgiven. Jesus replaced the baptism of John by baptizing us with the Holy Ghost (fire), total submersion/submission to Him. Again, Eph 4:5 tells us there is only ONE BAPTISM, just as there is ONE LORD and ONE FAITH. How many Lords do we have? How many faiths? Are there TWO LORDS, TWO faiths, TWO baptisms? NO.

Yes, “Jesus said he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved (Mark 16:16)”, but YOU are claiming this is water baptism, not Spirit-baptism. If water-baptism saved, Paul would NOT have baptized the one who had received the baptism of John again. You implied maybe he hadn’t been baptized in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’, so this is what Paul did. Even THAT is not sufficient. Look at Acts 8:16 “For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

On the topic of dying to the flesh and living in the Spirit, Romans 8 is all about this, yet does not mention water-baptism at all. So, to say “The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death” is unscriptural. You rightfully stated, “The baptism of the Holy Ghost is\gives life.” The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Jesus raised Himself – John 2:19, 21) will also give life to our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11). The Jews don’t let even three days go by without a personal mikveh – yet, they rejected Christ as Messiah and LORD. That water no more remitted their sins (nor does it today) than water baptism in the ‘Christian’ church does.

You are ignorantly indoctrinated to think that being “born of water and of the Spirit” in John 3:5 is speaking about water-baptism! Read the context! “That which is born of the flesh is flesh” – “born of water” (literally) = born of the mother’s womb. This passage is about being “born again”. Our first birth was of the flesh. Our new birth is of the Spirit.

So, you are exalting Peter as the “one with the keys to the kingdom”. Peter’s dead. Who has the keys to the kingdom now? The Pope? Is he also the ‘Rock (Petra)’ upon which the Church was built? Get Real. Regarding the ‘keys to the kingdom’ and ‘binding and loosing’, cross-reference Isaiah 22:22 (no Peter there); John 20:23 (not spoken to Peter as the recipient); Rev 1:18 and 3:7 (speaking of Jesus). Regarding the ‘Rock’ upon which the Church is built, cross-reference 1 Cor 10:14 (Petra!!) = Christ!!!

Water DID NOT SAVE NOAH. God did. Water DID NOT SAVE ISRAEL. God did.

It’s fine to note that “Peter COMMANDED Cornelius and house to be baptized.” God’s Commandments did not include water-baptism. The Law of Moses did. If you THINK Jesus told His disciples to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” in Mat 28:19, He did NOT. "The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 2, pg 263)". In fact, this verse never contained anything about baptism. Considering this fact, I wonder if the RCC didn’t also insert this ‘command of Peter’, their declared ‘first Pope’.

Not once do you ever see the Apostles baptizing “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” all throughout the New Testament. What Jesus DID say was, “go therefore…make disciples in My name, teaching them…whatsoever I have commanded …I am with you…”. Jesus did not command water-baptism (mikveh). He did, when He gave the mitvot to Moses, but that ‘Law’ was crucified on the cross, replaced by the BLOOD of Christ. We are back to the pre-Law salvation by faith alone. Strange there was NO baptism at all of those listed in Heb 11 (pre-Law). I guess they weren’t saved, right? Or, do you support the notion that we are to be baptized also for the dead? Absolutely NOT.

There is ONE CHURCH (Gal 3:29), not an Old Testament 'church' and New Testament 'church'. The Covenant is eternal; the 'requirements' of that Covenant went from outward Law (of Moses) to inward Law (of Christ).

Bottom line is, Jesus NEVER baptized people in water. He baptizes with fire, the Holy Ghost. Mark 10:38 makes this distinction: “But Jesus said to them, ‘You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?’" Surely, they had been baptized by John…The ONE BAPTISM that saves us is the Baptism by JESUS Himself.


ted 4 years ago

The Mikveh, no matter how it is or was practised under the law or even today, it is not how the New Testament Church is instructed to do it. Water baptism is to be done in the name of Jesus Christ to be effective in remitting sins, and second must accompany the receiving of the Holy Ghost (before or after) in order to be saved.

On the topic of dying to the flesh and living in the Spirit, Romans 8 is all about this, yet does not mention water-baptism at all. So, to say “The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death” is unscriptural.

- There was no need for Paul to mention baptism in Rom.8 because he was writing to a Chruch that had already been baptized in Jesus' name and also received the Holy Ghost.

If water-baptism saved, Paul would NOT have baptized the one who had received the baptism of John again.

- I did not mean water baptism by itself saves, I said for water baptism to be effective in remitting sins it MUST be done in the Name of Jesus Christ. I said that those people were only baptized unto John's baptism, which was not sufficient to remit sins, so they needed to be re- baptized in the name of Jesus Christ For the remission of sins.

- As for Acts 8:16 “For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

- This ought to show you that these people were baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ BECAUSE they believed, and then they received the Holy Ghost. In fact everywhere in Acts they were always baptized in Jesus' name in connection to their believing & receiving the Holy Ghost.

“The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death” is unscriptural.

- The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death, water baptism done in the name of Jesus is when we are baptized into His death, just read the scripture, it says it, Romans 6, Col, 2. it is in there.

- The context John 3:1-8 is Being born AGAIN, Jesus was speaking about being "born AGAIN of water and of the Spirit" that is exactly what Jesus said. When Jesus told Nicodemus "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" The question was, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

That is when Jesus made it clear what being born AGAIN meant, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Man is already born in water in natural birth but to be born AGAIN OF WATER means a second time in water. that is what Jesus said and meant.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, this is why we must be born all over AGAIN, and that includes the water.

- No I'm not exalting Peter that is simply a scripture I was giving. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom in Mat.16:18, it was his job to open the door to the New Testament Church, in which he did in Acts 2. and since Peter opened the kingdom door the job was done. no need for the keys anymore.

- Also the ‘binding and loosing', as you might know Jesus said "whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

On the day of Pentecost is when the door was opened, and now everyone that wants to enter the Kingdom MUST go in the same way that Peter preached it

NO#1 Step "Repent,

NO#2 Step AND BE BAPTIZED everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

NO#3 Step and you shall receive the gift of the Holy ghost.

This is the message of new testament salvation.

It’s fine to note that “Peter COMMANDED Cornelius and house to be baptized.” God’s Commandments did not include water-baptism.

- Peter got the water baptism in Jesus name from Jesus Christ.

- I never said that Jesus told the apostles to baptize in the titles Father, Son, & Holy Ghost I said Jesus told them to go and baptize all nations in the NAME. The point was Jesus told them to baptize,

For the apostles to do the baptizing they had to put their hands on a person to bury them in water baptism in His NAME for the remission of sins. Just watching someone dunk themselves IS NOT BAPTISM, nor is watching doing the baptizing.

- And Jesus did tell them not only to teach all nations but to baptize all nations as well.

And New Testament baptism in Jesus name is not the same thing as this 'Mikveh' you've been describing.

The Law was fulfilled by Jesus and ended on the day the Church was born in acts 2. this is where baptism was changed to be a commandment, after the Church was born, every person that heard the gospel preached and believed it were baptized in water by the disciples in the name of Jesus Christ For the remission of sins and also received the gift of the Holy Ghost. This happened all the way through the book of acts, which shows the established message of the New Testament Church.

All the epistles were written to people and Churches that had already experienced this new birth in the book of Acts. In fact these Churches that these letters were written to were started in the Book of Acts.

- Jesus didn't baptize people in water but His chosen disciples did under His instructions to do so.

Sorry for the length

Ted


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Okay, Ted. Please show me how the New Testament Church was instructed to water baptize (the method: i.e. a pastor is to take hold of the individual and dunk him/her in water and pull them up out of the water – it is to be face up or face down…). Nowhere in the Bible is the method of baptism given, other than what we know to be the historical and present way of the Jewish mikvah.

Secondly, you believe whole-heartedly that baptism is necessary to invoke the remission of sins. Let me ask you something. Does the Holy Spirit indwell anyone, if their sins are not forgiven? Can the Holy God indwell an unholy vessel? The answer is NO. Therefore, those who received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water-baptism were already forgiven and cleansed by faith alone = SAVED. Now, in the case of Acts 19, this believer already had his sins forgiven by faith and had been baptized with John’s baptism (water). Does this insinuate that he was baptized in the name of John? I don’t think John was baptizing in his own name. He came to bear witness of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. I thought about the fact that the ‘sign’ of the Lamb of God to John (the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove) did not manifest until Jesus was baptized, so was John baptizing in the name of Jesus? Elizabeth certainly knew Mary gave birth to the Son of God. John knew He was the Messiah and had been preaching His arrival and baptizing, prior to that day. John was beheaded shortly after Jesus’ baptism, so the disciples continued baptizing believers (even BEFORE the Day of Pentecost).

Jesus hadn’t yet died on the cross, so even this water-baptism was not ‘since the Day of Pentecost’, as you claim is when the method of baptism changed. It changed, alright. It was one of the Holy Ghost, from that day forward. During Jesus’ ministry on earth, He and His disciples followed the Jewish Law (commandment), right up until that day at Calvary. This tells you what type of water-baptism they were all doing…mikvah. You stated water-baptism did not become a command until the Day of Pentecost. Water-baptism HAD been a commandment; the ‘New Commandment’ is that we get baptized in the Holy Spirit! (Mat 3:11).

You said, “Man is already born in water in natural birth but to be born AGAIN OF WATER means a second time in water. that is what Jesus said and meant. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, this is why we must be born all over AGAIN, and that includes the water.” That’s your own indoctrinated interpretation. We are born of the flesh in the womb (water). We must be born-again of the Spirit, which is explained in John 3:16 “Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. Jesus does NOT mention baptism in water anywhere in the four gospels.

Let’s get the three steps right, Ted:

NO#1 Step "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you”

NO#2 Step “in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”,

NO#3 Step “and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”

John’s baptism is that of repentance. The blood of Jesus remits our sins. The Holy Ghost is received when a person is submitted to His infilling; this can be prior to water-baptism or after water-baptism. In fact, there is not one account of new believers receiving the Holy Ghost during water-baptism. You might say Jesus received the Holy Ghost when He was baptized, but that is a misconception, too. In Him dwells the fullness of the Deity bodily (Col 2:9). He was born of the Holy Ghost (Mat 1:18). The dove was the confirming ‘sign’ John the Baptist was to look for.

You said, “And Jesus did tell them not only to teach all nations but to baptize all nations as well.” You have ignored the fact that the Catholic Church inserted text into Mat 28:19, which includes the mention of ‘baptism’ and the ‘three-fold’ name. Jesus never commanded water-baptism. Jesus never baptized anyone in water. You obviously believe water-baptism is a type of ‘seal’ for the remission of sins/salvation. Water-baptism does not ‘seal’ our salvation. The baptism that SAVES us, the baptism that SEALS us is that of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30). Those in Acts 18:16 had been water-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; however, the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. Likewise, the one in Acts 19, who had believed and had been baptized in water had not received the Holy Spirit. Paul laid hands on Him, in order that he receive the baptism of Jesus, that of the Holy Ghost.


Ted 4 years ago

Hello again, schedule prevented me from a quicker response.

- If Jesus gives someone specific instructions to do something and they let someone else do that thing they were instructed to do, then they did not obey nor fulfill what Jesus said to do.

If Jesus tells me to go and baptize someone and I go and tell them 'you need to be baptized, and then that person gets into water and dunks themselves, then I have not obeyed the Lord to 'do' the baptizing.

Jesus told them to go and baptize... that would mean in order for them to be obedient to His instructions they are to do the baptizing not watching someone else do it themselves.

Mark 16:16 Is not a baptism of the Spirit that he means, because it is one that those whom he addresses are commanded to administer. Jesus alone baptized with the Spirit; his apostles baptized in water.

- Those that have and do receive the Holy Ghost before baptism have been forgiven (because they have repented of sins) but they still must be baptized to have those forgiven sins remitted, this will complete their salvation. This remission takes place in water baptism When the name of Jesus is used.

In other words forgiveness and remission go together, once a person repents and God forgives they must now be baptized in His name to have those forgiven sins remitted. But it must be in Jesus' name or their sins will not be remitted.

Also note, Ananias told Paul "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16

The washing away of sins is in baptism when the name of the Lord is used.

- In the case of Acts 19,

(I never insinuated John baptized in his own name, he baptized unto repentance.)

- Yes there was baptism before Pentecost but it was not in Jesus' name, but after the Church was born in Acts 2 water baptism became a must, a necessary part of the salvation process and it was to be administered in Jesus' name "for the remission of sins".

- Jesus said in john 3:3 "born again" if someone is living they've obviously been born once, so to be born again means you must be born a second time, this time spiritually, with water and the Spirit. If you're born of natural water only then you're not born of water again.

Its right there in John 3:3-5 born again of Water AND of the Spirit" so how is it you get only born of the Spirit?

you said " Jesus does NOT mention baptism in water anywhere in the four gospels."

- Then why we're the disciples baptizing with water after Jesus told them to baptize? Jesus said to go and baptize and they went and baptized in water.

According to your interpretation of baptism that it is only speaking of the Spirit, then how could the apostle obey the command to go and baptize? They cannot 'give' the Holy Ghost. (yes people received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, but the apostles did not give it).

Jesus alone baptized with the Spirit; his apostles baptized in water.

Let’s get the three steps right, Ted:

NO#1 Step "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you”

NO#2 Step “in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”,

NO#3 Step “and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”

- Wrong, it is

NO#1 Repent, (comma= stop there until you get repented)

NO#2 and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (comma= stop there until you get your sins remitted)

NO#3 and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And sometimes:

NO#1

NO#3

NO#2

But ALWAYS NO#1 first

Some get the Holy Ghost before baptism, some during and some after. That's because of true repentance.

- the mention of Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are not names, they are only titles, Jesus said baptize in the name OF the Father which is Jesus, Of the Son which is Jesus, OF the Holy Ghost which is Jesus. So Mat, 28:19 is not wrong, if someone baptizes in the name of Jesus then they have obeyed that command.

- I don't believe that baptism is what seals us it's the Holy Ghost as you said.

- Those in Acts 18:16, Though Paul did laid on them Paul did not "have to" lay hands on them for them to get the Holy Ghost, they could have received it without hands laid on them as Cornelius did.

you said, "Nowhere in the Bible is the method of baptism given"

- The method of baptism very much has been given, all you have to do is follow the apostles throughout the book of Acts and you'll see the established New Testament method of baptism, which is in water in the name of Jesus.

The Church that was born in Acts exists today, and will continue to exist until He takes it home, however they were born into the Church then is exactly how we are to be born in the Church today.

Ted


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello Ted, Before I respond about baptism, let me say I rejoice in knowing you KNOW who God is. We are bonded in Christ because of that faith, praise Him!

Now, to address your response:

You stated, “If Jesus gives someone specific instructions to do something…If Jesus tells me to go and baptize someone…Jesus told them to go and baptize... Jesus said to go and baptize and they went and baptized in water.” Obviously, you don’t accept the truth that the RCC admitted altering Mat 28:19 and the original text did NOT include the command to baptize or into the three-fold titles of the LORD. Now, since you KNOW that God IS the Holy Spirit and Jesus, the LORD is the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17), to baptize in the name of the LORD, Jesus, is to (since the Day of Pentecost) baptize in the Holy Spirit, and that baptism is NOT of water. It is clearly a distinct and separate baptism, as shown in the Word. Trinitarians, who believe God is three, distinct and separate persons believe differently than you and I. We know what One God is and what it means. Therefore, when the Word states in Eph 4:5 “There is one LORD, one faith, one baptism” you should KNOW what that means.

Now, consider Jesus came as the Messiah, Rabbi, High Priest of Israel and for this reason, kept the whole Torah. He, as the One who gave the commandments to Moses, kept those commandments. John the Baptist knew Jesus was greater than he and would baptize in the Holy Ghost, not with water. Jesus never baptized anyone with water, so if this was His command, He would have followed that command right up until the cross. He was, however, baptized in water, witnessed by John, under the Law.

You stated, “Jesus alone baptized with the Spirit; his apostles baptized in water.” You then said, “They [the Apostles] cannot 'give' the Holy Ghost. (yes people received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, but the apostles did not give it)." Absolutely. John couldn’t give it (water-baptism) either. Beginning with the Day of Pentecost, it was by preaching the Word the Holy Spirit fell on those who heard (Acts 10:44). Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17)! We are the vessels to preach the Word of Christ so HE can baptize all who believe.

Let’s talk about forgiveness of sins. How many people did Jesus heal – the blind, the lame, the leper, consistently stating to the ones healed, “Your sins are forgiven you.” He did not tell them to go straight-way into the water to be baptized in order to make that forgiveness complete. Yes, there is the example of the one Elisha told to go dip himself in the water seven times to be healed/cleansed (2 Kings 5)…interesting he was told to go dip HIMSELF – No one had to go do this with him or even witness the event.

Now, if you lead someone to salvation by faith in Christ, are you going to water-baptize that person or tell them they need to come to your church to be baptized? Then, your church is going to tell them, “We will only baptize you if you accept our Statement of Faith and become a member of this church”? If that person doesn’t agree with your doctrines and goes away, or doesn’t attend an organized congregation (baptized into it), he is hopelessly lost? Where is the Church made without hands? Who is the Head of the Church again? Who is the High Priest who baptizes us? That’s the PROBLEM with your doctrine of remission of sins!!

You stated, “This remission takes place in water baptism When the name of Jesus is used.” Acts 8:16 refutes that. You are claiming Acts 22:16 means the water washes away our sins!! Nothing, but the blood washes away our sins (Heb 9:22). Otherwise, the baptism of Jesus, witnessed by John, would have been sufficient. HE washed away our sins; we do not wash away our sins by an ordinance of dipping ourselves in water. For this reason, even the mikveh is not sufficient, nor is the blood of bulls and goats (sin offerings in Leviticus; Heb 10:4).

You contradicted yourself when you stated, “(I never insinuated John baptized in his own name, he baptized unto repentance.) - Yes there was baptism before Pentecost but it was not in Jesus' name." Then tell me, into what name was John baptizing?

We’ve discussed John 3:3 born of water is one birth (of the womb); born of the Spirit is the second birth (of the Spirit) – not “of water again and the Spirit”. That is indoctrinated tradition…not the Truth. Why did the Apostles baptize in water? It is the baptism of REPENTANCE: dying to the old Adam and living as the new Adam (Christ). Repentance is of the heart, then water-baptism is an ordinance we follow to show, as a witness to God and others, that we have died to our old man and are making the commitment to live in the Spirit. This ordinance is NOT contingent upon our salvation. Salvation is of the heart, not of any type of works (Eph 2:8-9).

By the way, Acts 2:38 does NOT have a comma after “Repent”. You want to insert a comma, I suppose as Jehovah’s Witnesses do when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you oday (,) you shall be with Me in Paradise [on the last day]”. There is no punctuation in Hebrew or Greek text. I think you meant to say #2 is not always before #3, not that #1 doesn’t always come first. If we haven’t repented (#1), the rest of the equation is moot. I agree with #2 and #3 being transposed in biblical accounts; however, that baptism of water does not need to be part of this equation. There is only ONE baptism and that is the baptism of JESUS, the Holy Spirit. This is how we are “born into the Church” and there is only ONE body, ONE Bride, One LORD and Head of the Church and HE does the baptizing. Amen.


Ted 4 years ago

Acts 2:38 KJV, Does have a comma after the word repent, but I suppose this version is all wrong also huh?

“This remission takes place in water baptism When the name of Jesus is used.” Acts 8:16 refutes that.

- How does it refute that?? it simply shows that these people were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and had not received the Holy Ghost yet.

And how is a person baptized in the name of Jesus Christ if no water is involved?

You are claiming Acts 22:16 means the water washes away our sins!! Nothing, but the blood washes away our sins (Heb 9:22).

- Again, I NEVER said water washes our sins, I said that DURING water baptism WITH THE NAME OF JESUS PRONOUNCED OVER A PERSON REMITS THEIR SINS.

In other words, It is during baptism that God remits sins, NOT WITH THE WATER ITSELF but during water baptism when the name of Jesus is used.

It is during baptism that God applies His blood to our record.

Baptism is when and where we take on the name of Jesus.

Baptism is when and where we are buried with Him into His death.

If a person was baptized in water (AFTER the birth of the Church Acts 2:38) and the name of Jesus is not pronounced over them, then their sins are not remitted.

- I dont know where your getting the info that I believe anyone has to be baptized to join my Church, thats bogus doctrine and it's wrong. I said they must be baptized according to the scriptures. Acts 2:38 to be born into the Church, i.e. the Kingdom of God.

"You contradicted yourself when you stated, “(I never insinuated John baptized in his own name, he baptized unto repentance.) - Yes there was baptism before Pentecost but it was not in Jesus' name." Then tell me, into what name was John baptizing?"

- How is it a contradiction??

John did not baptize in the name of John or in the name of Jesus, he baptized unto repentance. John said "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:" see, no names given.

- And you are so wrong about John 3:3-5, It absolutely says except a man born again...of water and of the Spirit. That is only scripture not a drop of tradition to it. Just read it and keep reading it till the light comes on.

"then water-baptism is an ordinance we follow to show, as a witness to God and others, that we have died to our old man and are making the commitment to live in the Spirit."

- Why would we have to follow an ordinance "to show God" we have died to our old man, since repentance is of the heart then God already knows, and it's definitely not necessary to "show others" either because a true repented persons life will automatically show that they have committed themselves unto God.

If that is all baptism was meant to be you can take it or leave it, but God instituted it in His New Testament Church as a part of the salvation process and it will remain that way until He comes and takes the Church home.

Baptism doth also now save us

The like figure =(antitype = "a thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a type")

1 Peter 3:20-21 in the days of Noah,...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure (whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.

(ASV) in the days of Noah,...eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism

(BBE) in the days of Noah...eight persons, got salvation through water: 21 And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation,

(Bishops)in ye dayes of Noe,...eyght soules, were saued in the water:To the which also the figure agreeth that nowe saueth vs, euen baptisme

(CEV) Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you.

(Darby) in the days of Noah...eight souls, were saved through water: which figure also now saves you, even baptism,

(DRB) in the days of Noe,...eight souls, were saved by water.Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also:

(ERV) And that water is like baptism, which now saves you.

(GW) in the days of Noah...a few people-eight in all-were saved by water. Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you.

(GNB) during the days that Noah...eight in all---were saved by the water, which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you.

(ISV) in the days of Noah,...eight persons, were saved by water. Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also,

(Murdock) in the days of Noah,...eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters. And ye also, by a like figure, are made alive by baptism,

(KJV) in the days of Noah,...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

(LEB) in the days of Noah,...eight souls--were rescued through water. And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you,

(LITV) in the days of Noah,... eight souls, were saved through water. Which antitype now also saves us, baptism

(MKJV) in the days of Noah,...eight souls were saved through water); which figure now also saves us, baptism;

(RV) in the days of Noah,...eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism,

(Webster) in the days of Noah,...eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure to which, even baptism, doth also now save us

(WNT) in the days of Noah...eight in number--were brought safely through the water. And, corresponding to that figure, the water of baptism now saves you

(YLT) in days of Noah...eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us--baptism,


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Ted,

The versions are translations, not interpretations and there is a difference. The original languages of the Bible do not use capitalization or punctuation and frankly, we don’t use a comma and the word ‘and’ together – but, I’m not going to argue semantics. Nor, am I going to try to figure out whether or not John the Baptist baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or no name at all...

Acts 8:16 is specifically speaking of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. You’re saying a person’s sins are not forgiven (remitted) unless they are baptized in water. My point is, how could the Holy Spirit (the baptism of Jesus) be given to anyone BEFORE water-baptism, if their sins have not been remitted? Your argument fails.

How is a person baptized in the name of Jesus Christ without water? It’s called the baptism of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, though the laying on of hands is not the only way to be baptized in the Spirit.

I want to you to think about something. God does not change. The requirements of the eternal Covenant (and there is only one Covenant) changed. It started out with salvation by faith (Hebrews 11), then the Law was added because of transgressions (Gal 3:19), which was then nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). We are back to the original requirements of the Covenant, salvation by grace through faith.

The 10 Commandments say nothing about water-baptism, nor do they when they are summed up by our LORD who gave them in Mat 22:38-40 “Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You can quote all the translations about Noah and the Red Sea all you want. I will state again, that Noah was not buried in water, nor were the Israelites. The water did not touch them. Those in Heb 11 were not baptized in water. You may claim this is a post-Pentecost commandment of the LORD, but the commandment is that we must be born first of water (womb) and then the Spirit (by Jesus alone, who never water-baptized anyone), in order to be “born-again”, which means SAVED and SEALED.

I will not continue this debate with you. I will leave this discussion with Heb 6:1-2 “So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don't need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don't need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.”


Jim 4 years ago

Three times John said that Jesus was baptizing (3:22, 3:26, 4:1). Then he clarifies: “Although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples”. Clearly, John intends for us to know that Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize, and John thereby simply refers to these baptisms as if Jesus had performed them. Instead of delivering that message, however, we lift “Jesus Himself did not baptize” out of the passage, replace "did not" with "never" for good measure, (optionally removing “Himself” and adding “anyone”), and make John contradict himself. There’s no need to pretend that John did not write “Jesus was making and baptizing disciples”. He wrote it. He knew what he was writing. If you want to quote John, quote him completely and not just some fragment.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

The point is, Jim, that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire - water is not that baptism, is it? John clearly stated, "I baptize you with water unto repentance", then he separates the baptism done by Jesus Himself, which is with the Holy Ghost and fire. Amen? Amen.


Jim 4 years ago

I claim that John 4:2 should not be used out of context (that is, without John 4:1 at the very least) and that the word "never" should not be added when citing it. Do you disagree? Can you explain why John wrote that Jesus was baptizing in John 3:22,3:26, and 4:1?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Jim, John 4:2 sets the "fact" about Jesus' involvement in baptizing with water. His disciples did the baptizing (the witnessing of such), based on the method of the mikvah discussed above.

John the Baptist said he (John) came to baptize with water, but Jesus was the one who would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire (Mat 3:11).


Jim 4 years ago

That's not an answer to the question that I asked. I asked you to explain why John wrote that Jesus baptized in John 3:22, 3:26, and 4:1.

Put it another way - suppose a critic of the Bible reads John 4:2, accepts it as true, and then claims that John is making a false statement when he says that Jesus baptized in John 3:22. Telling him that John 4:2 sets the "fact" would not be an answer to such an objection. He already accepts that John 4:2 is true. How would you answer his objection that John 3:22 is false? Keep in mind that telling him it doesn't mean what it says only strengthens his objection.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Jim, the point you're focusing on is really moot. If Jesus DID baptize sometimes and at other times not, what does that have to say about the "mandatory requirement of water-baptism"? Why didn't Paul baptize everywhere he went?

The crux of this hub is to make the point that water baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Jesus kept the entire Torah, too, so does that mean we should? And, how many baptisms are there? We can see in this study that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not the same as baptism in water. The Jews still take mikvahs and don't let even three days go by without one. Are they saved? Something's missing, right?

Eph 4:5-6 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." How many is one?


Jim 4 years ago

Apparently you have backed off from your original claim that John 4:2 says that Jesus never baptized anyone while he walked the earth. Fair enough.

By the way, the apparent discrepancy can be resolved by applying the law of agency. One quick example: John 19:1 says that Pilate scourged Jesus. Meaning, of course, that Pilate gave instructions that it be done.

It seems unreasonable to say that because Jesus spent his time teaching and instructed his disciples to do the baptizing that he considered baptism unimportant. After all, they were baptizing so many that the number of baptisms exceeded those of John the Baptist,

according to John 4:1.

You brought up the apostle Paul. As with Jesus, Paul’s attitude regarding baptism is not determined by whether or not he personally administered the rite, but in whether or not he preached baptism. I know a preacher who has had many, many people respond to his preaching and teaching by being baptized. Yet he rarely (almost never) performs the rite himself. I can’t think of more than a handful in the last 20 years. Now, you can try telling him he doesn’t think baptism is important, but you’d get an earful.

You asked that since Jesus kept the Torah, must we also? No, of course not. Then again I have never taught that since Jesus was baptized, we must be also. So for me this is a straw man argument.

Your question about Jewish baptisms – I guess I don’t see your point here. If you’re saying that those who reject Jesus cannot be saved merely by being baptized, then I must congratulate you on what my old college roommate called a keen insight into the obvious. Do those who baptize babies teach that non-believers can be saved by being baptized? I wouldn’t know.

“How many is one?” – Umm, half of two? (And yes, I know the question was rhetorical).

Now, I have addressed several of your questions. Perhaps you could answer a few of mine:

Was Paul speaking of baptizing in water in 1 Cor. 1:17?

Aside from the few Corinthians that Paul tells us he baptized, does history give us any clue as to whether any other Corinthians were baptized?

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:10?

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:11?

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:12?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I can’t say I ‘backed off’ from my original claim, but I must give room to what you suggest. I’m not that ‘set’ in my ‘ways’. 

I never said water baptism wasn’t important; I said it’s not mandatory for salvation.

You stated, “Then again I have never taught that since Jesus was baptized, we must be also.” So we are in agreement on that one.

Was Paul speaking of baptizing in water in 1 Cor. 1:17? I believe so, for he did lay hands on those already baptized into “John’s baptism” to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:3-5.

Aside from the few Corinthians that Paul tells us he baptized, does history give us any clue as to whether any other Corinthians were baptized? (Acts 18:8; 1 Cor 1:14)

To answer your questions about Mat 3:10-12, we can look at the definition of ‘pur’ (G4442): fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire. Therefore, the applicable definition would apply to these passages.

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:10? The eternal fire

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:11? Strife/Trials in this life

What does fire refer to in Matt. 3:12? The eternal fire

If you are insinuating that the baptism of fire is the same as the second death in the Lake of Fire, then may I suggest that those who are baptized with the Holy Ghost, the baptism that SAVES, will not be harmed by the ‘second death’, the eternal fire, aka Gehenna. (Rev 20:6, 14: Rev 21:8).


Jim 4 years ago

True, you did not say that baptism wasn't important. I should have been more careful there. I'm OK with replacing important with mandatory in my response. As a matter of fact, the preacher that I spoke of would probably insist on it.

I agree that there is one baptism (Eph. 4:4-6). Can you explain why the Corinthians received two baptisms? In 1 Corinthians 1, Paul is speaking of them being baptized in water. In 1 Cor. 12:13, he speaks of them being baptized “by one Spirit”.

Paul practiced baptizing in water. Yet he did not practice John’s baptism. He plainly identified John’s baptism as a “baptism of repentance” and separated it from Christ’s ministry in Acts 13:24. In Acts 19:3, Paul encounters some disciples who say that they were baptized into John’s baptism. Paul again separates John’s baptism from the ministry of Christ. The whole purpose of John’s ministry was to prepare the way for the Messiah. John’s ministry ceased. “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30). Do you contend that John’s baptism has not ceased?

About 1 Cor. 13:12, you said that a face is not a Bible. You’ve made the wrong comparison. Paul wrote “For now we see in a mirror dimly…”. James also speaks of a man looking into a mirror in James 1:23-25. God’s word is not a face, it’s the mirror. The face is that of the inner man.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Jim,

Why did the Corinthians receive two baptisms? The same reason we today receive two, except that one is not mandatory for salvation - that of water. I would like to mention again, that in John 3, the 'born of water' is equivalent to 'born of the flesh' (mother's womb).

The water-baptism we receive is John's baptism unto repentance and I believe it also to be a 'public confession' (witness/testimony) before many witnesses that we acknowledge the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and trust Him as our Savior. We agree before men to die to self and live for Christ. However, if we do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (whether pre-water, at water-baptism or post-water baptism), we "have the form of godliness, but deny the power thereof" (2 Tim 3:5).

Not everyone gets the opportunity to be baptized because it's turned into 'joining our church' and 'agreeing with our statement of faith', becoming a 'tithing member', etc. Let me tell you something - I was baptized into a Baptist church in the 'Trinitarian' formula of the 'name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' (no name mentioned), a formula that was added to Mat 28:19 by the RCC (admittedly so). Since all the water baptisms performed in the New Testament were 'in the name of the LORD Jesus' or 'in the name of Jesus Christ', I now would have to join a Church of Christ or a UPCI congregation with all their works-based religion to get re-baptized in Jesus' name! Thank God for the mikvah. I can baptize myself, in the presence of other born-again believers. Point is, if I was never water-baptized, or if I didn't get re-baptized, I don't lose my salvation. I've been baptized by the Holy Ghost, praise God.

1 Cor 13:12 is speaking of the return of Christ. We will see HIM face to face (as in the Greek word 'pros'/to; toward; with). In other words, the Baptists and Southern Baptists (if not other Protestant doctrines) believe when the Bible was completed, there was no more need for the gifts of the Spirit to operate, only the offices (except Apostles and Prophets, of course) and fruit. Therefore, they don't believe in a 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' evidenced by gifts (including tongues, for they believe they have ceased). They 'ceased' in 1 Cor 13 and yet Paul goes on to say how they are to be utilized in the congregation in Chapter 14....?

Yes, 1 Cor 12:13 declares, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Cross-ref Acts 10:45 "All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also."

THAT tells you what baptism it is that saves...the baptism of the Holy Ghost.


Jim 4 years ago

I am not convinced that your explanation regarding the one baptism of Eph. 4 is consistent. You agree that there is only one Lord, yes? Anyone else who tried to claim the title would be false, and not to be followed. There is one faith – any other faith is false, and should not be practiced. So shouldn’t we say then that there is one baptism, and any other is false?

You said 1 Cor. 13:12 speaks of the return of Christ. I’m interested in what you think about the rest of the passage.

Would you agree that “the partial” in verse 10 refers back to spiritual things?

What is “the perfect” in verse 10? Note: This is the Greek word “teleios” which Strong’s defines as “complete, perfect, mature”.

In verse 11, is Paul speaking of his actual childhood? What are the childish things? How is this verse connected to the rest of the text?

In verse 12, what is “the mirror”?

You asked “They 'ceased' in 1 Cor 13 and yet Paul goes on to say how they are to be utilized in the congregation in Chapter 14....?”

I’m not a Southern Baptist, but I’m pretty sure that this is just another straw man argument. I know I’ve never heard anyone claim that the gifts ceased at the time 1 Corinthians was written. I have heard it said that the gifts ceased later, which explains why chapter 14 was still necessary at the time Paul wrote the letter.

You also wrote: “However, if we do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (whether pre-water, at water-baptism or post-water baptism), we ‘have the form of godliness, but deny the power thereof’ (2 Tim 3:5).”

The expression you quote is part of a long list beginning all the way back in verse 2. Speaking of these same people, Paul uses terms like boastful, unholy, unloving, brutal, haters of good, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. He warns Timothy to avoid such men as these. Are you saying that Paul is including in this list those who believe in Jesus, have repented of their sins, and been baptized in water? Do you know what the apostle said would guard Timothy from such a fate?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Water baptism does not save, but it is not ‘false’, according to your comparison, Jim. For instance, What does “Do not commit adultery” and “anyone who looks at a woman with lust in her heart has committed adultery” represent? (Mat 5:27-28) How about the observance of the Feast of Trumpets,Tabernacles, Passover/First Fruits and Pentecost? Does the fact they were fulfilled in Christ’s birth, life, death/resurrection and out-pouring of His Spirit make the commandment false or the feasts false? Rather, I would say water baptism, like the Law and Feasts, is a shadow of the one baptism in Christ, for it is He who baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

You asked about ‘perfect’, ‘childish’ and ‘mirror’ in 1 Cor 13:10-12. Note the importance of ‘now’ and ‘then’ in vs12. The spiritual things we have in this life (now) are ‘partial’, because when we see Jesus face-to-face (then), we will know all things, even as we are known (even knowledge is a spiritual gift). The Perfect is Christ, and when He comes we will be perfect, even as He is perfect. May I reference the following verses to show this more clearly:

1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.”

Phil 1:6 “He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Eph 4:15 “but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,”

1 Pet 2:2 “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”

If God’s gifts and call are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), why would He revoke them? Since God poured out His Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (the birth of the Church made without hands), was ‘all flesh’, as Joel’s prophesy declared there in the first, infant centuries? Surely, the Church at Corinth, as well as all believers shown in this hub that received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues (see 1 Cor 13:1 – of men and of angels, and 1 Cor 14:2 – no man understands him) had the letters of the Apostles of Christ and even Paul; later those were complied into the Bible canon (88 books, which have been down-sized to 66 by the councils); so WHY did they even need these gifts, if we don’t because we have the condensed, approved written Bible?

If we were to use your ‘argument’ found in your opening question regarding Eph 4, we must apply it to the words of Jesus in Mark 16:17-18 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Are you saying this prophecy of Christ has ceased?

2 Tim 3:5, in context, would compare to what Jesus prophesied in Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'” Surely, there will be those who do all these things that don’t ‘know’ the LORD. We can reference the passage found in Acts 19, where the seven sons of Sceva “attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, ‘I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.’” and were told by that spirit, “I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”

Those who accuse believers manifesting the gifts of the Holy Spirit as ‘unclean’ or ‘of the devil’ are bordering on ‘blaspheming the Holy Spirit’, which is the unforgivable sin, for Jesus had just cast out demons and was accused of the same, at which time He gave this stern warning. Does Satan counterfeit the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Yes, for it is so prophesied in 2 Thes 2:9.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

For all my readers, I think it's very important to understand what it means to be 'baptized in the NAME' of the LORD Jesus. If you look up the Greek word for 'name' (G3686 onoma), it means 'character'. Thus, we are baptized into the character of Christ, manifested in our lives. This likeness of Christ is manifest when we receive His Spirit by being born again of His Spirit. It's a lifes-regeneration, not a one-time event/ordinance.


Jim 4 years ago

You asked some questions about adultery and the feasts. I’m not at all sure what they have to do with any of this (especially adultery!), but I guess you think that I believe a word can have only one meaning? I never said that. I simply compared baptism to the other items that were in the same list of ones in Eph. 4. I was merely interested in exploring what is meant by “one” (a question that you raised, by the way). Is that not a legitimate inquiry? With respect to baptism, for instance, we might say that “one baptism” means that there is one that saves and that there are others that are valid but do not save. But I could not apply that definition of “one” to the rest of the list. Makes me think I need to seek a better definition. You’re satisfied with the definition you have. So be it.

About 1 Cor. 13:10-12 – I still don’t know what you say the mirror is, or what the childish things are. I’m going to address the other questions that you asked, but would really like to get an answer to these.

You asked, “If God’s gifts and call are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), why would He revoke them?”

The word gifts can mean different things in different contexts. We’d have to study the passage to get a proper understanding of what it means in this verse.

You asked, “Since God poured out His Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (the birth of the Church made without hands), was ‘all flesh’, as Joel’s prophesy declared there in the first, infant centuries? “

Well, “all flesh” does not necessarily mean “all flesh for all time”. Let’s be careful about reading words into the text that aren’t there. Nonetheless, I believe that the great outpouring of the Spirit on that day was not some temporary thing, but has ramifications lasting throughout the Gospel age. For example, if I pour water into a tub at some point the water will be drained out of the tub. In the case of the pouring out of the Spirit, I believe that the tub is still full, so to speak.

You proposed that the church in Corinth had “the letters of the Apostles of Christ and even Paul”.

The church in Corinth was established somewhere around 51 A.D. Most of the NT had not yet been written, and wouldn’t be completed for another 40-50 years. Besides all that, when did I say that the gifts in 1 Cor. 13 ceased with the completion of the NT?

You wrote that “2 Tim 3:5, in context, would compare to what Jesus prophesied in Mat 7:22”.

I’m not opposed to a topical study that compares similar concepts from various Scriptures, but I think you will find that these two are quite different on closer inspection. Matt. 7:22 clearly refers to judgment day. 2 Tim. 3:1 has “in the last days”, an expression that is used 4 other times in the NT and always refers either to the present or the near future. The descriptions of the people in the two passages are not at all similar. I would suggest to any who are reading this exchange that they open their Bible and make their own comparisons. Write down all the things we are told that the men in Matt. 7:22 are doing (prophesying, etc). Then, alongside that, make the same list from 2 Tim. 3:2-5. Judge for yourselves how similar they are.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

How do I answer thee in a thousand words or less? It appears you didn’t grasp the point I was making about the Law and feasts mentioned. One could say they kept the law about not committing adultery, if they didn’t do so outwardly, right? Thus, Jesus made it clear that while someone might not literally do it, they could be guilty based on what was in the heart. This did not make the 7th Commandment false; it brought what was outward inward. Likewise, the feasts I mentioned, whether or not Jews, even Messianic Jews celebrate them today, were but a shadow of what was to be and is yet to be revealed in Christ (three more feasts have yet to be fulfilled). They were symbolic, but that doesn’t make them false. (Col 2:17; Heb 10:1)

Therefore, water baptism is outward and a shadow. What the one baptism IS, is an inward baptism (of the heart) and a shadow of the revealed death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the one being baptized. Some compare circumcision and water-baptism as related. For the Jew, circumcision is a must (a sign of the covenant); for some Christian denominations water-baptism is deemed the same. This I know from those who’ve answered about why they think baptizing infants is biblical (Lev 12:3). Paul made it clear in Rom 2:29 “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Likewise, Peter clarified the meaning of baptism in 1 Pet 3:21 “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh [outward], but an appeal to God for a good conscience [inward]-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What is the mirror? Perhaps now we can understand what it is more clearly. When you look in a mirror, you see a reflection of yourself, but the image is a reflection. Same thing if you take a photograph. You may be looking at a picture of the real you, but it is only an image. Let me give you another example about ‘reflection’/mirror image: Marriage. The way a husband and wife relate is to reflect that of Christ and the Church (Eph 5:32).

Childish things, as you are insinuating, is not the manifestation of the gifts, but the way the Church in Corinth was behaving. The church was riddled with problems, especially interpersonal relationships, divisions over leadership, incest, marital problems, law suits, impropriety during the Lord’s Supper, etc. When it came to operation of spiritual gifts in the congregation, Paul had to ‘lay down the law’, to teach them order, rather than continue to have them operation in chaos, affecting the unbelieving that came to visit.

The gifts of God are listed in the Scriptures, mainly 1 Cor 12, manifestations of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38; 10:45)

You said, “Well, ‘all flesh’ does not necessarily mean ‘all flesh for all time’. Likewise, you stated, “2 Tim. 3:1 has ‘in the last days’, an expression that is used 4 other times in the NT and ALWAYS refers either to the present or the near future.” Can you prove these statements? I’m not sure if I understand your analogy about the tub being still full. Are you saying the organized church is the tub, and all we have to do is jump in? How does one become a member of the Church made without hands? John 3 is pretty clear and water-baptism is not mentioned at all (though most misinterpret that of being ‘born of water’ as baptism, when it directly aligns with being ‘born of the flesh’; thus, why Nicodemus asked if it were possible to enter back into the mother’s womb). I read recently a great statement that one does not ‘join’ the body of Christ, but is ‘born’ into it. Once IN the Body, we are joined together, amen. Each person must be ‘circumcised/baptized’ in the heart, not of the letter. Again, being baptized into the NAME is about mirroring the image of Christ. The Spirit does not merely get passed on through the organized church to the flock, for there is only one Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5), and it is not through the organized church or through earthly shepherds (hence, Catholicism’s debauchery of our Rock’s statement in Mat 16:18). The LORD is my Shepherd (Ps 23:1) and speaking of ‘one’, there is only one Shepherd (John 10:16).

So all the disciples of Christ waited until after 51 AD to write down the things they witnessed of Christ? I don’t think so, Jim. If the Jews had the oral and written Torah, from which Jesus read in the synagogue, the churches also had those oral and written words of the Apostles. Consider Rev 1-3, for the churches were receiving letters from John. The completion of the councils’ Bible canon did not cause the gifts of the Spirit to cease. You asked, “When did I say that the gifts in 1 Cor. 13 ceased with the completion of the NT?” It doesn’t matter WHEN you think they ceased, as you said, “I’ve never heard anyone claim that the gifts ceased at the time 1 Corinthians was written. I have heard it said that the gifts ceased later.” And when might that be?

2 Tim 3:8 ties 3:5 and Mat 7:22 together, though you stated, “The descriptions of the people in the two passages are NOT AT ALL similar. “ You DO know who Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses were, do you not? Were they not able to do the same signs and wonders Moses performed? That shows you there are those who perform false signs and wonders. Also, we can look at the prime ordinance-keepers, the Jews, of whom Jesus called “whitewashed sepulchers full of dead men’s bones” in Mat 23:17. The sheep and the goats, wheat and tares, will all be identified when the final harvest comes (Mat 13:30).


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

P.S. to my comment above - as I continued to think about the 'tub', I thought more about the inspirational teaching the LORD showed me as captured in my hub "Share the Gospel - Oh Taste and See!" aka "The GOSPEL in a GLASS" http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h

The main point of it is, if there's not fresh, flowing water (i.e. the Spirit) moving continually, 'water' will stagnate and stink. Even the mikvah had to be done in a body of flowing water, not stagnant water. Thus, we can reflect on the words of Jesus found in John 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life" and 7:38 "He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (see also Rev 21:6)


Jim 4 years ago

You asked me to prove that “all flesh” does not mean “all flesh for all time”. I’ll rephrase – the words “for all time” are not found in the text. Nor can I find any words in the verse that have the meaning “for all time”.

You also asked for proof that the phrase “in the last days” is used in the NT 4 times and always refers to either the present or near future. Perhaps it is the use of the word always that is the problem? I simply meant all 4 times that it is used. Also, when I say “present or near future” – it might be simpler to say that it does not refer to the end of time. I did not mean to say that it could not refer to a past event. In any event, here are the 4 verses (other than 1 Tim. 3:1 where the phrase appears):

Acts 2:17 “'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind” - this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Heb. 1:2 “In these last days has spoken to us in His Son” – technically, this is “these last days” instead of “the last days”. If you wish to exclude it on that basis, that’s fine.

James 5:3 “It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” - the context indicates that as this is going on, the coming of the Lord is yet future. (James 5:7)

2 Pet. 3:3-4 “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." Again, these mockers come before the day of judgment. In fact, they have been around for some time now.

You wrote “Childish things, as you are insinuating, is not the manifestation of the gifts”

Here’s the first definition of “Insinuate” that google found: “Suggest or hint (something negative) in an indirect and unpleasant way.”

Please show me where I did this, and I will withdraw the offending statement. Merely asking you for your interpretation can hardly be described as unpleasant. Perhaps we can dial down the rhetoric a bit?

About “the tub”: sometimes an analogy can be stretched well-beyond its breaking point. It was just my clumsy way of saying that God did not recall His Spirit after it was poured out. Nothing about the church being the tub was intended.

I wrote that, as of 51 AD, most of the NT had not yet been written. You responded , “So all the disciples of Christ waited until after 51 AD to write down the things they witnessed of Christ?”

First of all, I did not say that ALL of the NT was written after 51 AD. I said MOST. Secondly, when I say “the NT”, I am referring to the 27 books of the Bible from Matthew to Revelation.

Obviously, 1 & 2 Corinthians could not have been written before the church there was founded. The “prison epistles”: Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon had obviously not yet been written at this time.

Look, this isn’t something I made up. You’ll find that scholars will differ on the exact dates, but it isn’t like there is no historical record here. If you care to deny history, that is your right, but don’t pretend that the dating of these books is somehow just my opinion.

If I might be permitted to make a final point, it would simply be this: I would urge all to be careful in our handling of the Scriptures. Let’s not study the Scriptures simply looking for a verse that will prove some pre-determined doctrine. Let’s focus our study of a passage on the topic that the writer is addressing.

Take care and God Bless.


Jim 4 years ago

I am curious about something, and I will trouble you no further.

Given the following facts:

1. Jesus first administered the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

2. The thief on the cross was saved without being baptized, either in water or in the Holy Spirit.

How then does the thief represent an exception to the requirement for one baptisn, but not the other?

Please note that I did NOT say that the thief proves that there is such a requirement. Only that if he disproves the need for one, how can he not disprove the need for the other?

I am genuinely curious about this. Should you choose to respond, I will not challenge your answer. I do not wish to engage in endless debate. Thanks for your time. Have a blessed day in the Lord.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Jim, if I seemed a bit frustrated, it is not personally directed at you, my brother in Christ. It is directed at the doctrine that tries to declare the gifts of the Spirit have been done away with. I have asked you when you felt they were done away with, and at first I assumed you held to the doctrine it was after 1 Cor 13, as most Baptists teach; I then assumed you meant after the Bible canon was completed, which you either didn't mean or recanted - however, I'm still not sure our discussion about what books were or were not completed by 51AD points to this being your view. I asked you when that 'later time' was. when you believe the gifts were done away, and while you quote what 'last days' mean in those few passages, it's really all over the map. Bottom line is, there is no proof that the gifts have been done away.

In my hub, "Healed of Spinal Meningitis", http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Healed-of-... a miraculous event happened, right in my home - here I was a Southern Baptist woman that had been baptized in the Holly Ghost, obeying the LORD to anoint and lay hands on my friend, speak in His tongues and receive the knowledged of the illness that plagued her, which doctors for over two years could not identify. The LORD revealed it; it manifested and was finally identified and treated. The church challenged this, #1) because the gifts had been done away, in their doctrine and #2) I was not an elder. After three pastors came together to study the Word they realized they had been wrong and all their ministries and congregations were revived in the Truth. Talk about the power of the Holy Spirit!

To answer your question regarding the thief on the cross, people in the Old Testament were saved by faith (Heb 11), for until the Day of Pentecost, none could be baptized in the Holy Spirit. They then had Moses and the Law. While Jesus walked the earth, He was Emmanuel in the flesh and since the Day of Pentecost, He is Emmanuel in the Spirit. He said in John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." Until Jesus died, everyone alive remained under the Old Covenant.

It's been a pleasure conversing with you, Jim. I can see you love the LORD and study His Word. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is prompting you to yeild your heart to more of Him. He knows the plans He has for you and they are only GOOD (Jer 29:11). I love you in the love of the LORD, Jesus Christ. Be blessed.


Bishop J L Hayes profile image

Bishop J L Hayes 2 years ago from Texas City, Texas

WOW! Am I a Johnny (Jerry) come lately to this thread or what? But JD, I would like to know about the photo of Bro William Branham you posted here. What is your connection to him?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Bishop - I published this quite awhile ago - I had never heard of William Branham until the time I published this. I found this actual photo of him incredible and thus used it for the example of a 'tongue of fire' appearance. After listening to a few of his videos/teachings, I can't say I believe he was 100% correct in his 'spiritual' theologies/doctrines. As a woman, for instance, it came across that he viewed women as rebellious Eve's with the propensity to be 'Jezebel spirits' and must be subverted. But, for the most part, I gleaned some good things from his teachings, too. What is your opinion of Mr. Branham?


Bishop J L Hayes profile image

Bishop J L Hayes 2 years ago from Texas City, Texas

Having pastored in areas of the country where he still has many followers I have learned a lot about him. I do remember listening to his radio program faithfully in the early 60's.

I do believe he was a prophet. But he seemed never to have shaken off his baptist background. He had the truth of the Godhead but was way off base on other points. He brought the "Two Seeded" Baptist doctrine with him into Pentecost. This is the teaching that Eve had sex with the serpent (before taking its present form) and brought that knowledge to Adam. In this view Cain was the seed of the serpent and Able/Seth were righteous seed. So that in the world today there exists the serpent seed and the righteous seed. This is called the "Serpent Seed" doctrine.

Of course, I do not have such an understanding of Scripture.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Wow. I fully agree! The Serpent Seed doctrine is Satanic. The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve gave birth to Cain (their first born) - Gen 4:1. He obviously got himself tangled up in pseudo-anti-Biblical doctrines of demons. This is why I get concerned for people who initially experience the power of God and for whatever reason, it goes to their head and they begin to desire this power within themselves (evil nature).

I had a dream once about the fine line between God's power working in us and witchcraft. In the dream, I was given authority over demons by the power of God and was wearing a white robe. When I (myself) realized I had this power (which was really not mine, but God's), I began directing the demons, commanding them to do things - and thus, my white robe turned black. That's all I needed to know never to cross that line. Jesus told me at a later time, when dealing with demonic forces in the spiritual realm, to get behind His robes and allow Him to rebuke the devil (Jude 1:9).

Never again have I had a problem with demonic attacks. HalleluYah!


WATERSTAR 2 years ago

FROM: WATERSTAR: as it is plainly stated By John the Baptize I am just a voice Calling out in the wilderness Prepare for a grater than Him he Baptize only unto Repentance not for one to be save But a call to Humble themselves and get ready for the one that was coming after Him which was Jesus, and as soon as John saw Jesus John said Behold or Look At The Lamb of God that Take away the sin of the World Which Was Jesus, Depends on Where You want to end up it all up yo the Believer. Jesus give His Apostles instruction of How To Get The People save and ready for heaven, in the Book of Acts of the apostle Chapter 2 verse 38 instruction was Given of how to Live Forever First REPENT-BE BAPTIZE IN JESUS NAME - GET FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, live a Loving God Obedience Life Of Care one for the other With The Love Of God in your Hearts, so when you die or Make it in the Rapture you Will Have a home in Glory With Him So if You want to Live With Jesus you Must Accept Him as Your Lord and King Find a Holy Ghost Filled Church and go and Fellowship with other believers That Love Jesus Just Like You it easy Go get an old King James Bible and See Look and Read it for yourself it still one of the Best seller Book on the market it has benefits of Hope that will Save Your Life for All of Eterinity. Jesus is Coming Soon The Rapture is near come make Jesus your Best Friend For Everlasting Life He Have the Power to save you make it soon Late Bird Walk all the way home with an empty basket and a hunger in the belly. BY: WATERSTAR


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

It's wonderful to see your love for the LORD, WATERSTAR! God bless you, brother.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working