REFUTE of SALVATION for ALL Doctrine

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

CRITICAL ERR OF SALVATION FOR ALL

I have become aware of an entire group that is against the biblical "Christian" teaching that only those IN CHRIST JESUS will be saved. This doctrine teaches that ALL will be saved, even to the point that Satan himself and his fallen angels, and everyone who rebels against God will simply be purified by God's all consuming, spiritual fire (there is no HELL) and will indeed be SAVED by that fire (on earth and in the after-life) and we all live happily ever after. They also believe man has no choice to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but that God makes that choice for them. Otherwise, they claim that Christians are saying God is weak.

The interesting thing about this group is that they don't claim any particular church root or doctrine (other than bibletruths.com, created by L. Ray Smith). Many, if not most of the people following Ray's teachings do not claim to be saved (yet) and thus, I am questioning whether Ray claims to be saved either! Indeed, no one can understand the truth of the Word without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nor can they have this guidance until they receive the Holy Spirit through salvation!

First of all, we must expose the root of L. Ray Smith. There was/is a hubber on HubPages called "yes2truth" who was an avid follower of this man's teaching, yet I recently stumbled upon a web-posting written by him back in March 2006 called "L. Ray Smith - The Legalist Blasphemer!" in which he states, and I quote, "Myself, like old Ray, having once been a member of Herbert W. Armstrongs's Judaising cult, and upon stumbling across ('stumbling' being a very relevant word here) L. Ray Smith's website and forum, I instantly related to his no nonsense style of preaching/teaching, which in itself is fine, and therein found much Truth being taught, but then, Hello!? I've been here before haven't I? Yes of course I had and there it was, all the time, that old stumbling block of legalism."

Now, I've already exposed Armstrongism in my hub A False Prophet of the Last Days? Another name for this cult is the Worldwide Church of God.

I am burdened for all those who are following this false teaching! Rather than go into ALL the scripture references they've publicized and their interpretation, I will rather get to the point or the bottom line. If there are those of you that really are searching and wish to be open to the truth, though it's much nicer to believe we're entitled to salvation no matter what, please feel free to send me an email, and I will do my best to research and share the "rest of the story" (explained below):

The ROOT: Misinterpretation of SCRIPTURE

The Bible warns us of such things to come: 2 Peter 2:16-17 in regard to all the letters written by the Apostle Paul, "in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

One of these ALL ARE SAVED/NO HELL/MAN HAS NO CHOICE followers sent me the following statement:

"You need to start believing these verses of Scripture and not what you THINK it's suppose to mean! It says the inhabitants of the WORLD. When? When Thy judgments are in the earth. Now who does that include? The whole earth, all the inhabitants of the whole world, to me that is everybody. You say, ‘no it’s not.’ Well to me it is, I’m sorry you are going to have to show me a verse that says, when His judgments are in the earth, NOT all the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness. Do you have a Scripture that says that? ‘No.’

Here is my response: You are quoting Isaiah 26:9 and you asked me to show you a verse that says, when His judgments are in the earth, NOT all the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness. I do have that verse! Read the VERY NEXT VERSE, verse 10, and I quote the Word, "Though the wicked is shown favor (the Jews are God's preferred), He does NOT learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD."

In doing hours and hours of study to answer every verse quoted to me by one of these members, I noticed this to be the case many times. One verse without reading the very next one, which then denies, or limits the whole context of "the rest of the story". We can see how Satan himself uses this practice when he tempts Jesus Christ in the desert.

In Luke 4:9-11, verse 10 quotes Satan as saying, “for it is written, ‘HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU, and ‘ON THEIR HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, LEST YOU STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” Indeed, Satan was quoting the prophesy written in the Old Testament in Psalm 91:11-12 accurately! His motive, though, was to tempt Jesus to throw himself down off the top of the pinnacle of the temple on which he stood! Interestingly enough, Satan stopped at verse 12.  THE VERY NEXT VERSE states, "You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down."  Jesus answered him in Luke 4:12, quoting Deuteronomy 6:16: “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST’”. Hmmm. Did Jesus just say he was “THE LORD, YOUR GOD?" (Satan’s GOD?). YES.

Here are some more scriptures in which this group practices the same thing:

  1. Isaiah 42:16 (they neglect verse 17)
  2. Isaiah 45:22-23 (they neglect verses 24 and 25)
  3. Philippians 2:10-11 (they neglect verse 12)
  4. 1 John 2:2 (they neglect verse 3)
  5. 1 John 4:14 (they neglect verse 15)

 

Refute of ALL will be SAVED

Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But He will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from Me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.”

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

A couple of the passages used by this group to "prove" that people will be saved through spiritual "fire" is 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Cor 3:13-15. First of all, believers have FAITH; unbelievers do not. These passages have to do with the saved. Let me show here how it's written in the NAS version of the Bible:

1 Peter 1:7 "that is the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"

Translated correctly, this is better understood by the proper typing of the words and punctuation:

"That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (DRB)

1 Cor 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains; he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.

The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation), is consumed by fire, escapes (is snatched out), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (therefore, the loss of his reward-prize). The word it above is the foundation of Jesus Christ in Whom he has his FAITH. He does not lose his salvation, nor does he obtain it by these works.

Eph 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

And WHAT of the following scriptures?

Isa 53:12 “and He bare the sin of MANY

Mat 20:28 “and to give His life a ransom for MANY."

Mat 26:28 “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins.

John 1:12 "But as MANY as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

Heb 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of MANY

The Bible does NOT contradict itself.

Refute that there IS NO HELL

Regarding the Lake of Fire: This group believes God would never be so cruel as to cast or throw anyone into a literal hell of fire. This is rooted in the fact they can't understand how we could possily not grieve the fact that any of our loved ones would be sent to such a place, while in heaven for all eternity! When we look at the rich man in the account of Hades (Luke 16:19-31), indeed the rich man pleaded that someone be sent to his family members to share the plan of salvation with them before it was too late! This was a portion of his torment! The Word says to these people who have chosen NOT to believe in Hell for this purpose, as follows:

In Matthew 10:37, Jesus said, He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."

Luke 9:59-62 states, "And Jesus said to another, 'Follow Me'." But the man said, "Permit me first to go and bury my father." But Jesus said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."

And another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home." But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

The Lord responds to those who think that His judgment for the wicked is "not right" in Ezekiel 18:23-32. He states the same thing in verses 25 and 29 as follows: "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel (the chosen)! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?" He also states the same thing in verses 23 adn 32 as follows: "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord GOD. 'Therefore, repent and live."

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.”

This group believes the Lake of Fire is a purification fire for the unsaved that will bring them to salvation in their immortal life (after they die). In regard to this fire saving people, we've addressed that in the section above. To claim that man is saved through judgment, rather than the sacrifice Jesus already made for us on the cross to continually forgive us of our sin, is negating the purpose of the cross!

There is a Lake of Fire, whether they believe it's an actual place or the spiritual "fire" of God upon the unsaved (it is both). Nowhere in the Bible does it state that there will be another chance for salvation into the Kingdom of God once put there. It is final. We had our choice for salvation while alive. If you don't obtain salvation through Jesus Christ BEFORE YOU DIE, your name will not be found in the Lamb's Book of Life and you WILL be cast into that Lake of Fire where Satan, the fallen angels, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are also, as immortal, never to die again.

Mark 9:49 describes the Lake of Fire based on Isaiah 66:24, “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” The Word also says of the Lake of Fire (geenna) in Revelation 14:10-11, "...he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Refute that Man has NO CHOICE

This group uses the following scripture as one to prove that we didn't choose God, but He chose us.

John 15:16 John is quoting Jesus saying, "Ye have NOT CHOSEN me, but I have CHOSEN you, and ORDAINED you" IN CONTEXT, they MUST read the exact quote of Jesus in John 6:70 (which is before John 15) and I quote, "Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him." Having twelve apostles was a must, so Judas was replaced by Matthius in Acts 1:12-26.

Please know that the CHOSEN of God are of the twelve TRIBES of Israel shown in Revelation 7:5-8 as follows: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. Anyone who is saved outside the Jewish faith is of the tribe of Judah and is grafted in to the elect of God! I would recommend reading my hub The Elect of God.

God blinds, yes. God hardens the hearts of the wicked (as with Pharaoh), yes. But even as the blind man was blind to the glory of God (so that he could see and give glory to God) [John 9:1-3], God does not prevent people from their very SALVATION. He accomplishes His will, whatever it takes, but does NOT prevent someone from making the choice in receiving His salvation.

2 Corinthians 4:4 is written as follows: "In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad-message of the glory of the Christ—who is the image of God."

Those who are spiritually blind are blind by their own merit, as described in the following confirming verses:

Acts 17:30-31 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man [Jesus] whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Acts 18:6 “But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

God's Word says to "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE; AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews in regard to salvation, "You MUST be BORN AGAIN." (John 3:1-7), and read this: "[The jailer] "brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31). To know about the plan of salvation, please read my hub Come to Jesus: SALVATION.

This group uses the scripture . "NO MAN CAN come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44)” as grounds for God being the One to choose who gets saved, when and how. The translation of the word DRAW actually means to DRAG. That's true. I've written a separate hub called SALVATION: Unless God DRAG Us?. This will answer what this scripture really means.

As far as God creating evil and thus being the One who makes us sinful, I have written yet another hub called The Battle for Your SOUL to answer this, and invite you to read.

So, let's look at their doctrine of man having no choice, and thus God also will purify man, Satan and his angels with fire. Are they implying that throughout the firey trials, man will be able to make a choice? If not, why wouldn't God save them without puting them through fire? What difference does it make? AMEN.

A Matter of LIFE and DEATH!

The Word says, "My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge." So many sheep (yes people) have gone astray; each man turns to his own way, the Bible says. If we don't learn to study the whole Bible and prove the Bible with the Bible for ouselves, we are vulnurable to follow the teachings of any man that seems to have what they claim is "understanding", following "every wind of doctrine". Even I only teach with the Bible and prove it with the Bible. I don't give you my own translation; I will be held accountable (James 3:1) and SO WILL THEY!

"LET NOT MANY OF YOU BECOME TEACHERS, MY BRETHREN, KNOWING THAT AS SUCH WE SHALL INCUR A STRICTER JUDGMENT"

Know this: the Devil can't prey on sheep that KNOW their God! Yes, he will persecute us, but that's all he can do. He only goes after the ignorant (innocent). Don't be destroyed by Satan. It's easier to believe this false doctrine than it is the truth. That should tell you everything.  Had there not been such err in this massive doctrine based on ALL by this group, I would have not developed such a burden for them in writing this hub, but this is a matter of spiritual life or death to ALL , (comma)...those who follow their teachings! Bottom Line.

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168 comments

Wehzo profile image

Wehzo 7 years ago from Detroit, MI

Very good hub Carrie. Sometimes it gets lonely on the front line, but that does not mean you are alone. This 'false doctrine' that you speak of is dangerous to those who are straddling the fence, and to some who have not learned to eat 'solid food' yet. I too, at times, find myself wearing the mantel of an apologist. But, be of good cheer Carrie, you have been, and are yet being, prepared and equipped for such a work. I am honored to have met you, and will continue praying for your strength in the Lord.

God Bless You


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Bless you,Wehzo. Speaking of an army of one ~ WE are an ARMY of ONE (OUR GOD). A burden for others is a calling to pray for them and work diligently to serve and protect them. God is more concerned with, and all of heaven rejoices when ONE lost sheep is FOUND. We know our salvation in Jesus Christ, and until He comes again, until the Day of the Lord, we do His will, which is to reconcile man to God, to fight the good fight. You are one of the warriors, a shepherd of the flock and I am blessed to be blessed by you, Wehzo. AMEN.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

You offered and God will lead some to you for truth. I commented on their hub that we as Christians will continue to love and pray for them. The truth is that men sometimes love darkness rather than light and some will not want to know the light. As long as God gives them to live I will pray for them. But the clock is ticking away and none of us is getting any younger. Hey, if I could get saved out of the Jehovah's Witnesses anybody can. As always, luvya!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

HALLELUJAH! PRAISE THE LORD! That IS the WITNESS of JESUS CHRIST! You have no idea how powerful a witness you are! I am so blessed! If you only knew the burden I carry for them as well. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. AMEN.


James A Watkins profile image

James A Watkins 7 years ago from Chicago

Outstanding Hub. You had to take a stand for the Truth. I also am grateful for Wehzo's encouragement of you above. While I certainly won't be doing the judging, I do know that Jesus said there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." And we all know there will be none of that in Heaven.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

The TRUTH spoken AGAIN! It's REALLY so SIMPLE when we have the eyes and ears to hear what the Spirit says! AMEN!


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 7 years ago

Go for it Carrie.

It does not matter in Gods eyes what your sin is, as long as you are in Christ, and covered by his blood.

God promises.

Psalms:103:12: As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

1Jo:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 17:2-26

"... That He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him ... They (born-again)might know Thee (Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ ... and they have kept thy words ... I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine ... all mine are thine ... and thine are mine ... that they may be one as we are ... that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves ... I have given them thy word ... they are not of the world ... sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth ... for their sakes I sanctify myself ... that they also might be sanctified through the truth ... they all may be one ... be one in us ... unto them thy name ... wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them"

Concerning L RAY SMITH FOLLOWERS......God already judges them.

Ga:1:6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Ga:1:7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Stick the man on the cross, and dont be moved, there is no confidence anywhere else

GB


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I praise God for my BROTHER in you HOO! His Spirit is ALMIGHTY!


ZJWM2009 profile image

ZJWM2009 7 years ago from Florida

Ok Carrie..I read it. Nothing in it that I haven't gone over. Take care.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

ZJWM2009, only the Words of the Lord will stay with you and He will bring them to your remembrance as He wills. He says His word never returns to Him void and our labor is not in vain when done unto the salvation in Christ Jesus. I am thankful you are reading and I pray you are blessed. He is faithful to those who seek Him. amen.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie, are you still trying to refute God's truths? It's funny how you make false statements still and don't allow anyone to post the truths. Satan does the same thing when he appears like an angel of light. Very similar to the way your making the false claims above appear.

Thankfully, as I have stated countless times, all is in God's control. Lie as much as you want. god watches and see's all. You may appear to be a good christian on these hubs but when your home alone crying and begging for God to forgive you for the lies your posting and the hateful messages you send people, I for one forgive you Carrie.

I know your only human and your susceptible to satan's musings. Claiming Ray is a cult and posting complete fabrications (interesting you didn't post ANY of the truths I have presented you) shows how deep in the grip of false doctrines you have delved.

Having others of like mind praise you and urge you on doesn't mean anything except I know it stokes your ego.

As I've always said Carrie, I will continue to pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His truths and leads you away from these false doctrines and lies that you think your called to post.

God is GREAT Carrie, unfortunately, you not so much when you post these lies to make you appear more godly.

-Jacob


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL ~ is it not true you believe ALL will be saved, that there is no HELL, and that man has no FREE WILL? I have not posted lies about what you believe. In fact, I have quoted your very words in this hub above. I boldly say, you are DECEIVED. If I cry at night, it's for your salvation; that you be delivered from the snares and lies of the Adversary that is blinding you to the glory of the Lord's Light and Truth.

You said, "As I've always said Carrie, I will continue to pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His truths and leads you away from these false doctrines and lies." He is keeping me away from your false doctrines and lies, JL.

Guess what? Did you know that God doesn't hear sinners? (John 9:31) If you don't have the real Jesus, your "prayers" are not heard. Turn to the real Jesus, JL. He is the only One who can open your spiritual eyes.

Amen.


phillip78 profile image

phillip78 7 years ago

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to WILL and to do of his good pleasure.

Well, there went free will right out the window. lol

I know you won't approve the comment, just like you always do


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Come one, come all ~~ Phillip, this passage is speaking to Spirit-filled believers. We cannot receive the Holy Spirit of God, nor accomplish His will in us if we do not first receive Him by repenting and asking Him to be the Lord of our lives. I would assume you know this?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA

Philip, Not ALL will be saved. We do agree that Jesus said "These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me." So even though they were told they were of their "father, the Adversary", you still think ALL will be saved. I invite you to read my hub called "Will He Know You?" http://hubpages.com/hub/Will-He-Know-You. The saved will be known by Him; the unsaved will not. Keep reading the Bible and I pray He keep on growing all of us closer to Him in His knowledge of the truth.


phillip78 profile image

phillip78 7 years ago

Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him [man] that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of [GOD] that sheweth mercy.[Another classic example of disproving free will]

It's speaks to Jews, AND Gentiles.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [Man accepts Christ???? Here it says Christ accepts man] Direct contradiction!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5N0zxuTHbM


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Philip, I'm not going to DISPUTE with you, as this hub addresses free will. Jesus made salvation available to the entire world, but just like with Adam and Eve, we are given the Word of God that tells us we must be born again, for if we don't we will be condemned. Adam and Eve made a choice, and so we also have a choice. Obviously, the Word speaks of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life and what is to be their fate. If you don't believe it, that's puts YOU on God's throne? I don't think so...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (geenna - Lake of Fire)."

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (again, the Lake of Fire)

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.'" (they won't be able to!)

Don't comfortably sit and think that because Jesus made the Way for all to be saved that ALL will be saved. The Word is CLEAR on this. Read these passages, which are only a few of many and know that the Word is truth.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie, my intent is NOT to argue with you as we have done this in past hubs and it accomplishes nothing. You and I both know this to be true. I do appreciate you allowing my comment to be posted.

Carrie, you state that mankind does not have free will. Do you understand what it is that you claim? Do you understand what exactly "free will" is?

You claim Adam and Eve were created perfect yet they sinned because Adam and Eve had free will to thwart God's perfect plan and bring about the current world we live in. Where does the scriptures state such nonsense? You incorrectly assume that Adam and Eve were created perfect because they were created in the image of God. You & many other Christians incorrectly attribute Scriptures referring to the King of Babylon to Satan the devil as being cast down from heaven.

The reason why I beleive that Jesus is the Savior of ALL mankind is because the Scriptures state it clear and plainly. You believe that Jesus only saves those who accept Him and are born again. Those that accept Jesus are His Elect! However NO ONE is born again and no one is SAVED in this lifetime. Saving is a process. If anyone who repented and accepted Christ were saved, then they would no longer sin. The wages of Sin are DEATH and death only. Not suffering eternally in Hell. If that were the case then Death and Hell would not also be thrown into the Lake of fire and destroyed.

The reason why there are so many religions claiming to have the truth when they clearly dont is because that is the way that God wants it. You assume that somehow Satan but a wrench in God's plans and screwed everything up. That is not the case. God says that Satan was created as the crooked serpent from the beginning. Jesus says you are of your father, the devil who sinned from the beginning. Not he sinned once he fell from grace and followed his own free will. God says that HE and only HE directs mans steps. So how can you say the Scriptures say you can direct your own steps via free will? Man can make choices! Those choices are not free from outside influences which God is in control of at ALL times. Therefore, your choices are NOT FREE from God's control. Man has a will definitely but it's not free to act upon itself without God's control. You refute this when it's a common theme through-out the entire Scriptures.

ALL religion refutes this truth because mankind believes they are in control of their own destinies and not answerable to God. This is also addressed in Scripture where the Beast attempts to sit in God's throne and call himself God. This is speaking of the carnal mind within each of us. Revelations is symbolic ONLY. It is not literal. It was signified which means to make known by signs and symbols. It's a Revelation of Jesus Christ, not John. EVERYTHING Jesus spoke, He spoke of in parables which are spiritual teachings. Therefore ANYTHING Jesus speaks about is in regards to spiritual things. spiritual things cannot also be physical things.

I realize that these truths are foreign to you and it's much easier to claim I am misleading people or I am of the devil but I don't speak of my own, I speak from the Scriptures and it is very easy to see. Jesus spoke of those who speak from their own mind vs speaking from the Scriptures and these would be known and easily seen as being of God or being false prophets.

Why would you think God would create people only to torture anyone for all eternity. Does that sound like a loving Creator? You misinterpret a great many Scriptures when you compare God to the mindset of human man. God isn't a man and He is not prone to our fleshly desires and does not love war, death and suffering and His will is clearly stated as NOT wanting to see any perish. God's will is ALWAYS done. It does not return to Him unfinished. It accomplishes ALL that He desires and He says He desires for ALL to be saved. WHY do you insist on stating that God's will can't be done?


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, where have I said man does NOT have free will? Or was this a type-o? Man DOES have FREE WILL. Our will is transformed to His will when we give our will over to Him. Even when we are saved, the "law in our members" (our hearts) battle against the "law in the Spirit" (God's heart within us). The changing of our hearts is an ongoing process and He is faithful to complete this work in us, once we yeild our will to His (being born again).

You said, "ALL religion refutes this truth because mankind believes they are in control of their own destinies and not answerable to God." We all must answer to God. I don't know who told you this? God controls our destinies of which we CHOOSE. Choose life, or choose death. There are many passages on this in the Word, but read Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." This is not about "deeds of the flesh", but rather the change of heart from evil to good that the Holy Spirit works in us, which is our true salvation.

Satan quotes the Word of God and yet twists it or merely leaves out scriptures that would refute the truth. Check out this hub you may or may not have read above, regarding the temptation of Christ in the desert.

You said yourself, "His will is clearly stated as NOT wanting to see any perish". If no one will perish, He should have returned by now, if ALL will be saved and ALL are saved. 2 Pet 3:9 states that our Lord is not slow concerning His promised return, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish....but that all should come to REPENTANCE." Repentance is a change of heart, yeilding our will to His.

Read the passages above in my comment above your last one. He will separate the tares from the wheat (Mat 13:30). There will be souls that go to the Lake of Fire reserved for the devil and his angels (not for salvation, but for destruction)-Mat 25:41. If you wish to deny the passages that are clearly stated above, you are spiritually blinded, for which I am grieved. For you to teach men, God's creation, that they all will be saved and we simply have no need to preach the gospel, is dangerous!

Again, I quote Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, many will try to enter and will not be able to.'" (they won't be able to!)

I continue to pray for you, JL and Phillip. I also pray for Hell-No, too.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Sorry that must have been a typo. I meant the Scriptures state Mankind does not Have Free will... obviously.


SirDent 7 years ago

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I posted these same two verse of scripture on another hub. I added nothing else to my comment but left it with only those verses. Funny thing happened. The response was so long from the writer that it took two comment boxes to post the reply. All of that from only two verses of scripture.

What happened next was that I spoke again and wrote a short reply. Now both of my comments are gone, deleted and floating around in Hubpages cyberspace somewhere. The sad thing is, I can understand the second one being denied. After all I did write something other than just scripture. I will never understand why the first one was deleted.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Let every man be a liar, but God be truth.


SirDent 7 years ago

I would like to reply to Philip if it is OK. When a person submits their body and soul to God, then God will work His will through them. Until that time comes, they are under the influence of Satan and are bent to do his will. They are bound by whatever they believe or do not believe.

God has given everyone a choice to make. Reemeber legion? Even woith all those devils inside that man, they could not stop him from worshiping Jesus. Though he was bound, he still made the choice to bow before God.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

SirDent, amen. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is Geenna. This false prophet teaches this is merely a fire of purification and once purified, man (and the devil and his angels) will be saved out of it.

Mark 9:49 describes the Lake of Fire based on Isaiah 66:24, “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” The Word also says of the Lake of Fire (Geenna) in Revelation 14:10-11, "...he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Forever and ever means just that...no deliverance!

Isaiah 47:14-15 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; each has wandered in his own way. There is none to save you."

Many times I see these followers quote scripture about how God directs our steps, but again, this is for those that are His. Like you said, we can only have our will changed by God when we choose to submit our will TO God. Amen!

Unlike the LDS hub, those who follow this false prophet leave book-long comments, some of which I denied. They try so hard to get people to run to darkness, but it is fruitless; futile for those who walk in the light. Lord, have mercy on your people ~ amen!


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

It appears your doctrines are based upon unscriptural words. This means words like "eternity" and "forever and ever". honest study will prove that the correct word is Aion, for the ages, etc. NOWHERE in the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are the words "forever and ever or eternity" used anywhere in the Scriptures. Using them would lead on to have a false understanding of the Scriptures.

Honestly, I would think if your going to back a doctrine, these simple truths wouldn't have to be explained.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Oh dear God, give me strength. Carrie you think that God can only control or direct our steps if we choice to follow Him?

"Many times I see these followers quote scripture about how God directs our steps, but again, this is for those that are His. Like you said, we can only have our will changed by God when we choose to submit our will TO God. Amen!"

You think that God can or will only direct our steps when we accept Christ as our Savior? So let me get this straight. God according to you, is limited in His power. God can't control the steps of anyone except those who choose to follow Him. Are you insane?!

You deny "book long comments" because they contain truths that you can't refute. I have nothing against you Carrie but you simply promote a false doctrine, plain and simple. None of what you state is Scriptural.

SirDent - I will continue to delete your posts because what you attempt to post on my Hubs are unscriptural trash.

Unlike Carrie, I don't deny anyone posting on my hubs only when they post unscriptural doctrines.

Carrie, I honestly wish you the best. I hope one day that God opens your eyes. but a word to the wise. If you continue to call that which is of God of the devil, your tears won't mean anything on judgment day.

Praying for people to get cancer because you can't understand truthful study of the scriptures is not only blasphemous but truly the devil has your tongue. Its that which comes out of our mouths that defile us. your comments defile you and you know it.

Praise God!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, I did not pray for your L. Ray Smith to get cancer. Your people told me this. I do believe that God removes false prophets for the sake of His precious children who are being led astray from the truth. You said you only post comments that are true and not the false ones. Well, we are obviously on different sides of the "truth", and I also do not purposefully allow your comments that are full of the twisting of the truth, but merely to show the reading audience how very different your doctrine is, which is a "different gospel"...Paul says in Gal 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"

When was L. Ray Smith and bibletruths.com founded? When did this "new gospel" enter the world? Do you know its roots?


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie Carrie Carrie, you have stated in hubs that are still up for others to see that God possibly has given Ray cancer as punishment. Now you claim you never said it?

Remember the ALL Liar's part of the Lake of Fire Carrie? God see's all Carrie. Do you think you can make such statements and not be held accountable while you claim to follow God and be born again?

Carrie, the reason why you only pick and choose what you will allow to post of mine is because you only allow what you think you can refute. You don't like being bogged down with honest scripture because you don't have to put much thought into it. You don't feel the need to study careful. It's much easier for you to only try and argue what you think you know. As long as others cheer you on, you think your on a righteous path.

I think I'll follow Christ. You seem to be following the path of the wide whereas I'm following the path of the narrow. That's why you have millions of Christians agreeing with your doctrines. It's not the many that are chosen but the FEW.

I guess I'll see you on judgment day. I promise I won't rub your nose in it when your called out but I will certainly remember how you called me and others of the devil. I still forgive you regardless. God see's everything and I'm content with that knowledge.

One day I do hope He opens your eyes and you finally understand His truths that He is in control of all things and you don't have "free will" to go against God's will.

That will be a wonderful day.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I have spoken my thoughts regarding L. Ray Smith and his cancer in my comment above and do not need to restate my wonderings about this.

Regarding "eternal" and "everlasting", you state it is the word "aion"? Well, let's look at what the Greek dictionary says about "eternal" and "everlasting" in the following two passages:

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

eternal and everlasting are the same Greek word aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); perpetuual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting.

The word aion is similar, but the incorrect word when it comes to eternal life or eternal judgement. You've asked me to study, and I have done so.

We are to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (2 Tim 2:15) In His grace and patience ~


SirDent 7 years ago

JL, It doesn't matter whether tou allow my cooments or not because I will not comment on your hubs again. I recall recently many that agree with you and possibly you also who cried and whined over comments beeing deleted. All I have to say is keep crying.

If you lead anyone falsely, their blood is on your hands.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

I believe we need to beware of those who claim to know God’s Spiritual Truths, but know preciously little about God’s Word, the Scriptures. God’s Spirit never contradicts His Word, but the Church’s and many others "teaching" contradicts God’s Word in hundreds of places.

Many spiritually blind believers think that they truly are disciples of Christ, but they go out telling the world that Jesus Christ will not take away the sin (singular ‘SIN’ - ALL SIN) of the world, as John the Baptist plainly said under inspiration of God, that He would (John 1:29). And many spiritually blind believers think and go out telling the world that Jesus Christ is NOT the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, even though His Father plainly said that He is (I John 4:14). And they also falsely claim that God will not have all mankind to be saved, though God inspired Paul to say that He WILL save all mankind (I Tim. 2:4, & 4:10). Are such deceivers worthy to be called disciples and apostles of our Lord?

I think the answer is fairly obvious. I know many times the truth hurts and this is just such a case where people don't want to accept God's truth. They want to continue to follow and promote false doctrines.

I Cor. 2:10

"But God has revealed them unto us BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searches ALL things, yea, the DEEP things of God"

Proverbs 25:2

"It is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing: but the honor of kings is to SEARCH OUT a matter."

These evil and unscriptural doctrines are idols in the hearts of millions! And until they repent and get rid of these "idols of the heart" (Ezek. 14:4), they cannot be Christ’s disciples or apostles. They may say that they are "apostles," but they are not. The very church of God where Jesus Christ "walks" in their midst and "holds the seven angels of the seven churches in His hand," nonetheless, has in its midst, "…them which say they are apostles, and ARE NOT … but LIARS." They say that they are circumcised in heart Jews, but they are NOT.

Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):

"WHY do ye [all of mankind] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).

"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

I don't believe you have a problem with what I teach, I beleive you have a problem with what the Scriptures state must be. God's word PLAINLY states the truths as I have presented them to you but you don't accept them because you don't like them. You would much rather think of God as imperfect, unable to do anything right and therefore will destroy the majority of mankind except for those who you think are good christians. Such teachings are unscriptural and blasphemous.

I don't think anyone here is a bad person even though SirDent insists on making snide remarks and acting superior to others. I understand it's his carnal mind rebelling against God's truths and it makes him feel good and godlike to attempt to make others look like fools. But fortunately, God hasn't allowed that to happen, much to SirDent's chagrin.

It's tremendously sad to see so many people who claim to serve God but in the same breath blaspheme Him as well.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

As a side note Carrie, I really appreciated your email response. I must admit, it was a side of you I had not seen before and I appreciated it tremendously. Your tone through-out the email was extremely kind and sincere & forthright. Likewise, I appreciate you allowing this discussion to continue on your hub by allowing at least some of my comments to be posted.

-JL


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, I did some more research on your "belief" system, and it is of the root of Universalism that's been around almost as long as Christianity itself. Therefore, it's of no threat to those who are Christians (not merely "mouth-Christians"). Your doctrine and the doctrine of Christianity are out there for people to CHOOSE (yes, choose).

God created man in His image and God gave man the authority over all the earth. Man gave that authority over his life to Satan in the garden. When Jesus paid the price for our sin (yes, God knew they would sin and predestined His death on the cross for him), Man then must give the authority over his life back to God, which reconciles him to God (which is JUST). You believe God simply saved everyone and there is no repentance necessary, as man is incapable of change or willing to believe ~ unless God drags him to it. If that were the case, God would not have had to die. He is God, and because He's JUST, He has to follow the very Law of which He IS "I AM that I AM".

I have a hub on Salvation by DRAGGING (forcing), and have stated that God doesn't force His way, though He wills, He doesn't force, for again, He would not have had to die. When I read the following passages you quoted, it still confirms to me that there is a separation of good and evil, and if good and evil could not exist in the heavens in the beginning when the Dragon was cast out with his angels, it cannot simply be made pure by fire, but by the blood of God alone, and man's reconciliation through the same authority God gave him in the garden ~ by CHOICE.

You said, "Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):

"WHY do ye [all of mankind] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).

"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

His Word is truth and confirms that only those who reconcile themselves by choice to God, by accepting the gift of salvation through His blood, will be "of God" and not cast out away from Him. If He can say to those on His left "Depart from Me; I NEVER KNEW YOU", He will not know them. They will not inherit salvation based on anything outside of the Way, the Truth and the Life, by CHOICE.

Amen.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, I had posted the comment above prior to your latest comment and I appreciate also that we can have a manner worthy of our Lord whom we claim to love in loving mankind in that way. I understand your heart is passionate about God as I share in that passion ~ it's unfortunate we are on two different sides of the coin, but ultimately, God knows the motives within our hearts and He is faithful to those who truly seek Him and continue in the Word by faith in Him. If we didn't care, we wouldn't be here, right? Amen.


SirDent 7 years ago

LOL JL, here's a snide remark for you.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


SirDent 7 years ago

Universalism is a false belief. Those who embrace it do so because they have departed from the faith and the truth. Just as Eve was deceived in the Garden of Eden, so are they likewise deceived.

God will take care of all who sin against Him. Those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Why does God need a book if all people will be saved? If you being evil know how to give good things to your children how much more will God give His children who love Him?

Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has in store "FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." But it is revealed to "US" by His Spirit.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Why would some be called Bastards? Can they be sons or daughters of God if they are bastards?

G3541

??????

nothos

Thayer Definition:

1) illegitimate, bastard

2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave

Part of Speech: adjective

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity

Enough said?


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Thanks Carrie, I do very much enjoy our conversations this time around. We both agree that neither of us can claim Christ is Lord without the Holy Spirit and I think for now that's good enough.

SirDent, for some reason you think that universal salvation negates Christ's sacrifice when the opposite is true. Christ was made our sacrifice BEFORE the world was even created. Christ didn't die just to negate sin but to save us from DEATH. The fact that there are Holy Scriptures doesn't negate anything. I'm not exactly sure what your attempting to state.

Being a bastard does not mean that you can't become a son. Do you not know the parable about the wayward son who was a bastard but was welcome back by his Father? This is how God welcomes back ALL His bastard children when they repent and accept Him. Those that don't repent, like a loving father will are chastised and made to repent because the Father loves them.

If you feel making negative comments at my expense is Godly behavior... you need to go back and re-read the Scriptures.

Nuff said? Not quite but for now, I'm content.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

I'd like us to understand each other, so this is why I am trying to address the differences in understanding Scripture. You stated in your previous post that I don't believe that repentance is necessary. For those that God has called to repent, yes I believe they will. I think the confusion regarding repent or not to repent is that in the last days when God brings His judgment, anyone who has NOT repented at that time WILL repent then.

This is in reference to the Elect:

Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This is in reference to the devil:

Rev. 14:10, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire..." (Rev. 20:10).

As this is Satan, he is a spirit, and therefore CANNOT be tortured with REAL FIRE. Real, physical fire has NO effect on SPIRIT! Since God "makes His angels SPIRITS; His ministers a FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4), it isn’t likely that the Head of the "sinning angels" would be the least bit hurt by literal fire!

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:12 & 15).

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). However, that does not purge us from all our filthy thoughts and deeds. No, there is more. There is also a consuming FIRE that God uses on us:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)

"He shall judge the world with RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Psalm 96:13)

"Because He [God] hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Acts 17:31)

Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)

There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!

The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,

"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:3-4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).

The Scriptures state that EVERY Knee will bend. Every tongue will swear Christ is Lord. This is the time when the remainder of mankind will learn righteousness & repent. After this is judgment. God's Elect have been called in every generation to be judged during their life on earth. Those Called and chosen are chastised and experience fiery trials while alive during their time no earth. This is how they are acceptable to Christ for the wedding feast and eventual marriage to Christ and then to reign as Kings and help judge the rest of the world. Because the Elect have been called to be judged in their lifetimes in every generation since Christ walked the earth. Those patriarchs of the Old Testament received a promise in faith but have not as yet been given that promise. The Elect are the only ones called to judge the very angels that God created.

In regards to God “dragging” people to Him. I think your focusing too much on the dragging portion. The definition of that particular word means to “drag”. Stating that God drags people to Him is an accurate explanation of the process.

I agree that mankind can make choices all day long and every day for their entire lives. I have never stated otherwise. These "choices" are NOT independent from what God has already stated/declared will happen. Once you make a choice, it's a fact and couldn't have ever happened any other way. This is a law of nature. There is no "what if" when God has declared the beginning from the end.

Therefore EVERY choice we make cannot be made outside of what God has already declared and therefore, it is NOT free from God's declaration or control.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).

God allows us to make choices in our lives, but these choices are not free from outside CAUSES. You are hungry and decide to drive to McDonald's, while driving come to a crossroad, you choose to go left. God's plan for you was for you to go left when you came to that turn. You came to that turn because you were driving; you were driving because you were hungry and wanted to go to McDonald's. You were hungry because your body craved food; your body craved food because God created your body to need food to live. Therefore that choice to go left is not free from outside influence. Free will means you can choice to do something without outside influence. If your decision is influenced, it can’t be free. The problem comes from not understanding what exactly free will is because we have been conditioned to believe we have a free will. Doctrines are based upon this false understanding of the term. Free will doesn't exist because no choice is FREE from outside causes. We all have a will, no one has disputed that. What I have stated the Scriptures clearly explain is that mankind’s choices are not independent from what God has already determined/predestined.

I explained that Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God against his will. Moses did not want to fight Pharaoh but God caused Him to be able to do so. Saul killed Christians until Christ caused Saul to change his Heart against his will. To say that God doesn't force us to do His will is not true. God shows us over and over that God is ALWAYS in charge and controls our actions at ALL times.

Do you honestly think that God, who tells us to love our enemies will destroy our loved ones just because they don't serve Christ when alive? It goes against the entire theme of the Scriptures which is LOVE.

The reason why Christ had to die was to save us from DEATH. The wages of sin is DEATH. not the wages of sin is sin. If people were destined for Hell, then WHY/HOW are Hell and Death thrown into the LOF at the end and destroyed forever?

Christ was made the sacrificial lamb before the earth and Man was made subject to vanity but also given HOPE in the resurrection of Christ because God had determined that would be the way it was to be. Man was never made perfect. Being created in God's image is an ongoing process, not a singular event w/Adam and Eve. It is necessary for us to learn the difference between Good and Evil. God placed the tree in the garden


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to give you as better understanding of how I understand the Scriptures. I think if you are going to disagree, you should understand completely what it is you are disagreeing with.

I'm trying to keep my postings as simple as possible but there are so many scriptures in the Bible which I think are important to mention, so it makes it hard to keep it short.

Thanks

JL


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Claiming my doctrine is universalism is incorrect. Just as all other christian religions and religions outside christianity promote unscriptural doctrines, there are a great many doctrines universalists promote that are equally unscriptural as well.

I belong to the Body of Christ and do not subscribe to any earthly body of religion.

It is suffice to say that Ray Smith does present a great many doctrines that I do agree with and understand but he too also does not claim any allegiance with any earthly organization of/or religion. however, I do not nor does anyone else I know, put Ray on a pedestal above God or even equal to God. All is of God and it is God whom I serve, no one else, man or myth. I just happen to understand and agree with a great many of the Scriptures that Ray understands, believes and promotes as truthful study.

Eating the apple was not the sin, it was the disobedience. Before she ate Eve committed the three sins listed in 1 John 2:16

(1Jo 2:16 KJVR)

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Christ counteracted these same three things when He was tempted in the Wilderness. His only weapon was the Word. "It is written" Though it happened in the physical this too was spiritual This was also a spiritual lesson on how we are to deal with these three deeds of the mind.

Christ is the First fruit and in.. Perfect Obedience... the Fruit.. was put back on ..the tree (the cross). The elect as His body are there too.

(Rom 8:1 KJVR)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:4 KJVR)

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If Christ is our head and we do the Will of the Father then the first three commandments are automatic, since God loves and will save All of mankind, then we can finally love all our enemies as well as our friends. Now the remaining seven commandments no longer have any meaning to us.

The elect as the spiritual Body still has the physical flesh to contend with, they need to mortify and keep it under control. They have an advocate who will forgive their sins when they repent. Everything in the physical starts to become more and more meaningless. "The flesh profith nothing"

(Rom 8:5 KJVR)

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

(Rom 8:6 KJVR)

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All of the sins in the Bible are like this, David and Bathsheba ( the adultery, lies, murder etc) Anaisis and his wife (attempting to hold something back from God). The list goes on.......

(Gal 5:16 KJVR)

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

Feel free to check out the hubs I have posted. You can post comments on them. I will approve comments that are meant to be part of meaningful conversation, even if in disagreement. I don't allow comments that are threatening or an attempt to bully or be hateful. Again ,I appreciate you allowing a great many of my comments to be posted even if you disagree with me. I also agree that we both have passionate hearts about God as our Creator & Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Here is additional thoughtful study.

A great many of the worlds religions mankind believe, He loves the world so much. But the Concordance version has it right, John 3:16 “For thus God loves the world…”

Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said. It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no. It says this is how He loved the world, that’s what it means. He didn’t so love the world; He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, “He gave His only begotten Son,” ok. But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right. That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world. NO.

This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart. Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. This is too deep for the world, they can’t accept this, the same way they can’t except that God created evil and uses it often. But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says, “Because you despise this Word,” (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17), if you won’t believe what it says.

Granted there is a couple of places that is not translated right, but not that many. That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment, there is eonian chastisement, two totally different things.

Eonian, age lasting chastisement or correction to make you better, is a whole lot different than torture the hell out of you, for all eternality, in fire. I mean these are not two same thoughts, they’re totally antithesis towards one another.

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating, ok. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love.

Father these people are blind and deceived, oh their fools, and they’re hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less. Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them. Is this a contradiction? No, it’s not. It’s the way God is and we need to be like God.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

The only places you will see God phileo anyone, is His Son and us, the elect, no one else. Those who reciprocates, He loves us because He said (He is talking to His disciples now), My Father loves you and they didn’t know that before. But He said, I am telling you, My Father loves you, and the reason is, because you love Me. I’ve given them Your Word, I’ve been teaching you, it’s the same as the Father. The words that I speak, Christ said, they are the Father’s. The things that I do, the works that I do, it’s all the Father. And you excepted and reciprocated and love Me for it, and that is why My Father loves you. There it is.

So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors. Maybe we don’t like them, maybe they’re not even good people, for our enemies, surely aren’t good people, are there would not be a reason for them to be your enemy.

For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love. But nowhere does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.

Jesus said you should not call a brother fool, did Jesus Christ ever call anyone a fool, another contradiction, right?

Mat 5:22 … but whoever shall say to his brother, Fool! shall be liable to hell fire(judgment).

But wait I thought the Lord called the Pharisees fools, twice in chapter 22. Well, they weren’t His brothers. How do we know they weren‘t His brothers? Because He was condemning them, because of their sins, but are they still His brothers, no.

Remember the occasion, where they said, your mother is looking for you, Lord? And He said, who is My mother, and who’s My brother, who so ever does the will of My Father, that’s My mother and that’s My brother.

Did the Pharisees do the will of His Father? No.

Were they His brother? No.

When He called them a fool, did He sin? No.

Should we call a brother fool? No, don’t you call a brother fool.

Jesus said you are My friends - phileo, that means dear friends, actively fond of you. But He put a little disclaimer on there, if you do what so ever I command you.

John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

There's a song ‘What a Friend We Have in Jesus.’ Somebody read that scripture and wrote a song about it.

You might be thinking, 'if He’s such a friend, why don’t He help me out, like some of my friends would if they could? How come my friend Jesus, doesn’t do that? How come He doesn’t bail me out and how come He doesn’t do more things for me? How come He doesn’t make me feel better and get rid of this problem, if He’s really my Friend, why doesn’t He do that?' I have an answer for that; You know why He doesn’t do that? Because He says we’re His friends and He’s our friends, and we say 'wait, somebody I consider a friend will do more for me than I think that Jesus does for me, sometimes.' Don’t think that way.

“BECAUSE FRIENDS DON’T LET FRIENDS DRIVE DRUNK.”

That actually a spiritual statement. Because friends don’t let friends drive drunk, most of the time. When we want what we want and when we want it, and wonder why God doesn't give it to us. It’s because we want to get spiritually drunk, and we want to drive in this world spiritually drunk and friends don’t let friends drive drunk. Christ won’t let you do what could kill you, spiritually. So there is a reason why you don’t get everything you want, when you want it. There’s even more.

We don’t get it, because maybe it would be okay to have it, but He is building strength in His Saints,

spiritual strength. Those that can do without and still love God for not having what they think they need, now what do we call that? We call that living by faith, see. If you get everything you need, everything you want, everything you desire, you don’t have faith for anything. It’s when you don’t see a way out of the spiritual prison that Christ has put you in. It’s got a door with bars and windows with bars and there is no way out, you have got to pay the price. There is no way out, you got to pay the utter most for it. You say, 'I don’t even know what it is.' God knows!

Christ puts us in prison sometimes. We have to live by faith, we have no choice but to live by faith.

Either that or we give up on God, and throw it all away and say were through with this living Godly stuff.

We have got to live by faith.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

I’m correcting a misconception of the Scriptures I have presented. It appears; you think that by everyone being saved that Christ’s sacrifice is negated. People can sin and still be forgiven. I’ve never said that. Ray has never said that either.

There is salvation available, and it is by grace, not our own personal works of righteousness, but we must FIRST REPENT. If I condoned my own past sins, I never would have repented of them.

People think my explanation of the Scriptures means “Yea but I can do whatever I want and not repent of them and it still leads to God anyway, doesn’t it?“ No it doesn’t, it leads to judgment and fiery indignation and the wrath of God. It’s not going to be happy or pleasant but it’s not going to be forever either.

“Where in times past you walked according to the course of this world… Among whom also we all had our conduct in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh…” (Eph. 2:2-3).

“For ALL have sinned… Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24-26).

Now where in there do you see it say, that really is a license to sin however much you want to sin in the future, because “it all leads to God ’anyway?” We are all going to be saved anyway and when we die we’re all going to heaven ‘anyway.’ No! That’s not the way it is.

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [Gk: pornos-paramour/male prostitute], and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death” (Rev. 21:08). This is everyone who is not called and then hosen to be members of the Elect.

That doesn’t sound like you just do waltzing off to heaven ‘anyway,’ regardless of how you live.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

That’s another way of saying, know ye not that the unrighteous are not going to heaven ‘anyway.’ Know ye not that the unrighteousness is not a street that leads to God ‘anyway.’

Be not deceived: neither fornicators [Gk: paramours], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [Gk: catamites], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: sodomites] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionors, shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

There it is! The kingdom of God is to be inherited by Christ’s Elect First. They are the first fruits after Christ. Once Christ’s reign is over, and everyone has received judgment and been made to repent, and Christ turns over the kingdom back to god and God is all in all, THEN ALL will inherit the Kingdom of God and be like the Elect. It’s not automatic and it’s not instantaneous… it’s a process that occurs over time.


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

When it speaks about the whole world, how many are we talking about? Let’s look at some scripture. Does the whole world sometimes mean only a portion of the world? Follow this closely. I have it, ‘the whole world,’ but now sometimes it uses ‘the world,’ and it doesn’t include every last single human being, it just has a generality to it, ok. But the phrase ‘the whole world’ in the NT is used only half a dozen times and every time it’s used it means all humanity.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is(being) proclaimed throughout the whole world.

Oops, did I shot myself in the foot? Do we really believe that His Word was spoken about in the WHOLE world? All the inhabitants of the whole world, including China? Was the faith of the Romans being spoken of in China? I don’t think so. Well then how can I say every place where the phrase ‘the whole world’ is, it means all humanity, how can I say that?

Because this is not translated properly, that’s why. It should be translated in the aorist tense and the Greek ‘is BEING proclaimed.’ Rotherham and the Concordant both have ‘is being proclaimed.’ That’s the indefinite of the Greek aorist, it’s the is, was and will be tense. It’s the past, present and future tense, it’s the indefinite tense.

Here’s a question, is the faith of the Romans being proclaimed in China today? Yes it is. It certainly is. So when it says “is being proclaimed,” will it continue until it reaches everyone? Absolutely.

1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD.

How does this prove the salvation of all? [Because it says the whole world.] Does it say the whole world will be saved? [But it’s talking about all the inhabitants, isn’t it.] But does it say all the inhabitants, all the people, every human being on earth will be saved? Does it say that in there someplace? [He’s the propitiation for the sins, if you take away all the sins.] You’re right. You’ve got to go back to the word propitiation. That threw me for a minute because of this verse in John 1:29 says, “Behold, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world!”

But this word propitiation means atonement, starting back in the OT . Propitiation is a atonement and it’s a covering for sin. It covers sin. Now if it covers sin, does it cover it for a while and then it gets out? Well it did in Israel. It covered it for how long? One year, is all it covered. The high priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the Ark of the Covenant with the blood and that was on the Day of Atonement, one time a year. That was good for a whole year And guess what? They had to do it again. But then we read in Hebrews 7 that our High Priest, He entered into the Holy of Holies ONE time and that was good, just one time. So this propitiation is a one time deal. Notice it, it’s for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world, all the inhabitants of the world. It covers all the sins of the world.

They would agree with that, because at least we have a scripture that the theologian would agree on, that that propitiation covers all sins. But then they turn it into a lie by suggesting, only though IF you accept that propitiation. It doesn’t actually cover all sin, only if you let it. Is that what it says? No! That is not what it says, so let’s not be making a liar out of what Jesus Christ did. He IS the propitiation for all sin and not just for our sins, the sins of the WHOLE world.

Atonement is ‘kaphar’ - to cover, placate, conceal, appease, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pardon away, purge away, reconcile. Man those are powerful words, anyone of them is a powerful word. When all the population of the whole world has their sins covered, placated, appeased, cleansed, disannulled, forgiven, piled on with mercy, pardoned, purged away and they are now reconciled to God, THEY’RE SAVED!

So there is a scripture that PROVES all humanity will be saved, right there.

Either He is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world or He’s not. This says He IS. Therefore all mankind must be saved or He’s not the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world. Because then there would be sins of some people that are not covered and they’re going to go to hell and be in a state of spiritual death, which God is not pleased with, but tough toenails God can’t have what He pleases. Nonsense! It’s heresy, all of it’s heresy.

When it says whole; we not only have world, being the population of the world, not the trees and stones. It means the whole, ‘holos’ - whole or all, complete, altogether, every whit, throughout, that’s what whole means. Whole never means half of or a part of. The whole means the complete, the whole enchilada, the whole ball of wax, right. That’s what Jesus is, if He doesn’t do it, then He isn’t the propitiation. Well what does the scripture say? Is He or isn’t He? HE IS!

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Now it doesn’t have ‘whole’ there. It means the inhabitants of the world. So we don’t have the word whole there. Actually I put this verse in before I realized I was just going to deal with the ‘whole world.’ But it doesn’t matter, is He the Savior of the world? Is there anything in the Greek there that insinuates that He is only the potential or possible or is it emphatic? HE IS! He sent Him to BE the Savior of the world.

Now here we have the same thing as this nonsense that is still being taught by some, that Jesus Christ was made to BE sin. You can’t be something that you’re not. Sin mean breaking the law, lawlessness, law breaking. Now you can’t be a lawbreaker and yet you never break the law. You can’t be a Nascar driver, if you don’t driver a race car. See you can’t be what you’re not. To say you can be something that you’re not, is just plain grammatical stupidity. Take away the fact that the scripture teach no such thing, but you can’t be something that you are not. Jesus Christ can’t BE the Savior of the world if He doesn’t save the world.

I love this scripture in Isaiah.

Isaiah 26:9 “…for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn (Rotherham and Young both say: “will HAVE learned) righteousness.

When the judgment are fully in the world, everyone ‘will have’ learned, because that is the end results of judgment. It’s not the beginning results, because there is a process. He’s coming to judge the world, that’s a process. But when it’s finally done and His judgments are now in the whole world, all the inhabitants of the world will have learned righteousness. It’s a done deal. When every human being will have learned righteousness, that’s this way of life, guess what? You’ll be saved.

Yet how many hate this scripture. I’ve had people write me back, when they saw that I put this someplace in one of my papers; “…for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will have learned righteousness. And they say, ‘Ray read the next verse.’

Isa 26:10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness;

Then they say, 'there you go Ray, the wicked won’t learn righteousness, you can show them favor but they won’t learn.’ Well I know that. That doesn’t contradict the verse above it, they just think it does. They want it to contradict, but it doesn’t.

It doesn’t contradict any more than when God says He will rain upon the just and the unjust, (Matt 5:45). That by raining upon the unjust, He is showing that being unjust is a good thing with God? Because if you are unjust to Him, He will be just to you? He will reward you for being unjust? That nonsense.

It just shows that He is not enforcing His judgment now. Yea you can show favor to the wicked, he’ll still be wicked, he won’t respond. Christ says, if he slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek. Well guess what? There would be plenty of people that would slap the other cheek too. Yea you can show favor and they won’t respon


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jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

DO ALL SCRIPTURES USING ‘ALL’ MEAN ONLY SOME?

We have shown where some scriptures, at least, using the word ‘all’ means only some. Do all scriptures that use the word ‘all’ means only some? We’ve got to prove our points here, one at a time, as we go.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that every (pas - all) idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Does anyone, we or the church or theologians, believe for one minute that He only means some of the idle words spoken by man will be judged? Only some? Does anyone believe that? Not even the theologians believe that’s only talking about some, many or a few. They believe that means all. Why? Because they have no problem with that being all, they have no problem with saying, ‘yea I need to judge all my own idol words, I can’t be saying any idol words anymore than anybody else.’ They’ll agree with that, because it doesn’t save everybody, so they still have that nasty little doctrine to hang on to, you see.

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every (pas - all])word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Again theologians say, ‘well that does mean every or all, it mean we should live by some of God’s Words and the parts of God’s Word you don’t like, we can throw those away.’ No they wouldn’t say that.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

You know I could play their game and say, that’s the word ‘pas’ it means some or many, it doesn’t mean absolutely everyone. I’m one that it doesn’t include, I’ve not sinned. And we know some people who have claimed that, just a little while back. They say, ‘I no longer sin.’ Of course it is in the past tense, so even if you are sinless now, it says “have sinned,” at least in the past. Really would any theologian say that doesn’t mean all? No they wouldn’t. But when it says “all have sinned” they say it means all. But when it says all will be saved, it doesn’t mean all. What’s their proof? What’s our proof?

Now do you see why I put this study together today? They don’t have a personal problem with being a sinner, but they have a major problem with everybody being saved. They just don’t like that, you see. So we are going to have to go a different route here, if we want to expose those that contradict the Word of God. It’s one thing to just say it, but if you are going to really expose it, then you have to prove it.

So this one say “all have sinned.” Can we find other proof that the “all have sinned” means everyone? Yes we can.

Rom 3:12 They are all [is that proof? No not according to theologians] gone out of the way, they are together [is that proof that all have sinned? No not according to theologians] become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no not one:

There‘s the proof, you can‘t fight with that. Is there one person who has never sinned? “No not [even] one.” You have a double negative “no not one.” So yes we do have proof.

Here is another one. What Jesus Christ said “there is none good,” none (Matt 19:17). Now that excludes any, but God. So yea we can prove that all have sinned means absolutely everyone.

Now can we prove that all will be saved, means absolutely everyone will be saved?

Any suggestions.

[Is all, especially believers proof? (1 Tim 4:10)] Yes especially believers, but what about “all (pas) men,” the all is the many. He will save many that come to Christ, in the future and especially those who are already believers.

I told you I was going to play the theologians advocate here.

[Well, Col. 1:20, should cover just about everybody] We already went over that, but what in that scripture did she base it on? ‘All’ it was wrong, there is more in that scripture than what she based it on. That is a good scripture, but not the point that was brought out. That’s why I just glossed over it.

You are going to find as we go over this, that there are many scripture that say nothing about the salvation of all men, that prove that God will save all men. The scripture doesn’t say any such thing, but yet it is proof. That’s what I meant by what we use to say, there more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one way to get from here to Toledo. You can take the shortest cut, but there are other ways and they will get you there too.

Now it says “no not one” now I want to prove that the “no” in the Greek is ‘ou’ and it never means some or any. I want to prove that, so we know each word is going to nail it down.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but…

It says ‘not,’ it’s the same Greek word ‘ou,’ it’s translated a lot of times no, not, nay, neither, never, none, nothing, that’s what it says in Strong’s. That is pretty powerful. Now does that mean some or a few? No, it’s no, not, nay, neither, never, none, nothing. “Not EVERY one...” Guess what? ‘Every’ there is the same word translated ‘ou,’ it’s the word ‘pas’ that means - all, some or many, okay. “…that say unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” No not any “… that say to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” but that is not the end of the sentence. “But,” here is the disclaimer, “but,” here is the exception to the rule. None, absolutely none, BUT.

You can eat all the M&Ms, BUT the yellow ones, I want those. According to that statement are you allowed to eat even one yellow M&M? No. You can eat all of them, BUT.

Now here it doesn’t say all of them, but none of them. It says, “Not everyone” but in the Greek it’s no ou. ‘No all’ should be saved, but it doesn’t sound right, it’s not proper grammar to talk like that. So they say instead of ‘no all’ that say unto Me, Lord, Lord…” “Not (same negative, no - not) every (pas - all)” and it’s proper, it’s the same. It’s not a bad translation, that’s the way it should be translated “Not every” but when you say “not every” aren’t you suggesting maybe there are some? See when you say, not everyone will make it to the Olympics, well some will, right. But then you have the ‘but.’ So yes it can be translated “not everyone.” Everyone “but,” here’s the “but,” see so it’s still proper. So now we have literally, “ou pas - no all,” which means “no all, no any, no many, no whatever many or few.” “But (only) he that does the will of My Father” (Matt 7:21b) So not a single person that DOESN’T do the will of Jesus’ Father, will be in the kingdom.

The no not, the not all, the no all, clarifies that. None, none whatsoever, No exception. So here the negative, no - not - neither - nor - never - ou, it means EVERY, there is NO exception.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

OK, this is a lot of information, JL. The fallen angels are already incarcerated in the deepest abyss of Hades called Tartaroo. Though they not be burned up, they are in torment. When we die, we are also spirit, and it is our spirit that is either in the peace of heaven in the Lord's presence, or in the torment of Hades (not Tartaroo) until the Judgment. The Lake of fire is a place of torment, not destruction, for even as you said, spirit is not destroyed.

As far as our works being tried by fire, yes. However, a person is not saved by works, but rewarded for them. If a saved person has not works that Jesus did through Him, he is still saved (snatched out of a burning building, so to speak, but never put into the fire himself). This is a matter of error of interpretation of this verse, which I believe is addressed in this hub.

Once again, you have quoted Isaiah 26:9, but you are neglecting the NEXT VERSE. Not all will learn righteousness.

Regarding every knee bowing and every tongue confessing does not mean salvation for all. The devils also believe and indeed confessed the identity of Jesus (i.e. Legions) and yet were not saved. Yes, indeed, even the fallen angels fear God; Satan himself fears God. They know God has all authority, and they know they have but a short time to deceive the world until their end comes.

Regarding the marriage feast, do you recall there was one who came to the feast that was not in a white robe? He was cast out of the marriage feast.

Regarding Hebrews 11 and those who died in faith without having received the promised Messiah; they indeed were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I have yet to study up on predestination. Because there is so much in the Bible about those who will not repent and are lost, and indeed are thrown into the Lake of Fire, I believe God knows who these people are, and He knows who will reject Him. It's hard for me to swallow that there indeed will be those who do not inherit eternal life, but rather eternal damnation. I do not write it off as God's fault, but that He gave man the dominion to rule the earth. Man gave that dominion to Satan. God requires man to give that dominion back over to God because of the shed blood of His only begotten Son. If we don't give that dominion back over to Jesus, we will have the same fate as the god of this world, Satan, the father of lies.

Regarding our loved ones that are lost; the rich man had loved ones he wished would believe, after knowing he was in Hades for eternity, but his family still had a chance. God knew his family members would not believe, so this must be their predestination ~ hell (Hades) and eventually, the Lake of Fire. God does give people over to their desires because their hearts are hardened. Basically, He seals their fate because of their rebellion. I can bet Pharaoh is in torment and will be forever, obviously predestined by God. God did not and will not give grace to Pharaoh.

God tells us in the Word not to love our family members more than Him, or we are not worthy of being His disciples. Our family members each have their own accountability to God. We are to witness to them, but know it will be the Spirit that will call them; thus they do have the choice to receive by faith or reject because of hardness of their hearts.

Death and Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire means the second resurrection of the unbelieving. The death of the bodies and the torment of the soul. They are reuinited, body and soul and thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is confirmed in Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Lake of Fire, Geenna)".

Yes, God knew Adam and Eve would sin; that's why the death of God on the cross in the flesh of Jesus Christ was predestined. However, there is no more judgment for those who accept this gift of salvation (Romans 8:1). If they don't, they are still under the Law of sin and death.

I will continue in patience, JL, for if this hub was written for no one else, I am blessed you are here.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL,

You said, "If Christ is our head and we do the Will of the Father then the first three commandments are automatic, since God loves and will save All of mankind, then we can finally love all our enemies as well as our friends. Now the remaining seven commandments no longer have any meaning to us." Excuse me? The last seven commandments have no meaning? This is ludicrous! I don't say that to be mean, but no where in the Bible do I read we are to ignore the commandment of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Regarding the flesh and spirit scriptures, those are very true. Remember, that Mat 15:18-19 and Mark 7:21 tell us that the breaking of the commandments come out of the heart, which is wicked. This is why circumcision of the heart is salvation (Rom 2:29). The fruit of the Spirit replaces, or puts to death the fruit of death (Rom 7:5).

Ok, on to your next comment...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, you quoted John 3:16. If you look up the word loved (as in God so loved the world), it is not phileo, nor have I ever stated such. It is indeed agapao, which is a social, moral and principled love. Agape love is that of friendship, attachment and kissing. James 4:4 states, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

You said, "That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment." Who says? You've just shown you reject what the Word of God clearly states! Please quote a scripture that uses eonian (age).

You said, "“Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love." I don't see the word love used here at all. And, in fact, the Jews crucified Jesus, right? Are they not His chosen ones? The Word says in Rom 11:26 "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'"

Ok, now to your next comment...I really have to go get some groceries, but will take some more time to keep up with you.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, you said, "The only places you will see God phileo anyone, is His Son and us, the elect, no one else." Phileo love is used in reference to brotherly love, which we share with other believers, along with agape, not agapao. We do not love the world with phileo or agapao love.

You said, "So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors." When Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves, he uses agapao, not agape or phileo (unless our neighbor is saved). Agapao is the way we love our enemies, and yes, Jesus was not joined with the Pharisees because they honored Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. They were His enemies! He came to minister to the "lost sheep of Israel" (Mat 15:24). They were LOST, not saved.

While I understand what you MEAN by "spiritually drunk", there is a scripture that tells us not to be drunk with wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. On the day of Pentecost, the disciples were accused of being drunk because it can appear very similar when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This means to be controlled by (so don't be controlled by wine, but rather controlled by the Holy Spirit).

I say, "AMEN" to living by Faith and trusting in God's will for our lives. To want what we want and not to get it is living in the flesh. To claim God's promises and stand on them with patience, which is a fruit of the Spirit, is to live by faith in His righteousness. Amen.

Now, on to your next comment...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, you are right on about REPENTANCE. The baptism of John is a showing of that repentance. Repentance means to turn from our sinful ways, our sinful hearts, and give those to Jesus and trust Him to make us that new creation. Without this, there is no salvation.

You said, "and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24-26)." Truly, this salvation is through believing (which means to entrust one's spiritual well-being to Jesus Christ) in Jesus. Amen.

Regarding grace giving us a license to sin? Absolutely not, for it says in Jude 1:4 "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

Everything you said there was correct, with exception to the error of your doctrine, and I quote, "and everyone has received judgment and been MADE TO REPENT, and Christ turns over the kingdom back to god and God is all in all, THEN ALL will inherit the Kingdom of God and be like the Elect." This is FALSE. No one is MADE to repent. It is an act of hearing the Word, choosing to obey the call of the Spirit unto salvation, or chooseing to reject the call unto damnation.

On to your next comment...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, you said, "1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD." Propitiation means He's made the WAY (atonement, as you said) to forgive sin, but not all will enter into the gate (through Him alone), and will thus remain in their sin. Why is the gospel to be preached to the whole world? Because, faith comes by hearing!! The propitiation for sin has been made to all who will accept it, which I know is very difficult for you to understand. No one is MADE to REPENT, or FORCED to salvation. God does know who will and will not be saved, but He cannot judge someone who has not heard the Word, right? That would be unfair!

Check out this verse: John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." There will be no excuse when Christ returns, for all the world will have heard the gospel and will be accountable.

Regarding the blood sacrifice of the lamb once a year, this was done by the Jews, and did not atone for the sins of the "dogs", the Gentiles. Only Jesus could do that, and Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and thus Gentiles are grafted into the chosen, the Jews, upon salvation through Jesus Christ's atonement...through FAITH.

You have disregarded so much of the Bible when you make such an arrogant statement as follows: "But then they turn it into a lie by suggesting, only though IF you accept that propitiation. It doesn’t actually cover all sin, only if you let it." Jesus' blood will cover all sin, but it is wasted and has no effect to those who reject His sacrifice. That is biblically true.

You also said, "so let’s not be making a liar out of what Jesus Christ did. He IS the propitiation for all sin and not just for our sins, the sins of the WHOLE world." JL, if His blood covers all sin, then why the need for the Lake of Fire for purification, if man is made righteous through the blood alone? Are you not lessening the value of the very blood of God? You guys had to come up with a reason for the Lake of Fire, other than condemnation and eteral hell fire. It doesn't add up, when you consider it this way, does it?

Regarding the word "ALL", I can say "all my pillows", but that doesn't mean all pillows. God has those who are His and ALL who believe in Him are saved. Look at this verse in John 17:9 "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given Me, for they are Yours." Does Jesus even pray for the world? NO!! Does the world (the lost) get heard by God when they pray? NO!! Based on John 9:31 "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will."

You said, "and they are now reconciled to God, THEY’RE SAVED!" We must accept our Lord to be saved. It's not accepted by all men, therefore, though the gift is sitting in their mailbox, if they don't go open it and allow Jesus to change their hearts, the box sits to no avail.

I already may have shared this verse with you when someone asked Jesus if all would be saved: Luke 13:23-24 "Someone asked him, 'Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?' He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.'" Not be able to? What? No, not all will be saved. Jesus said so.

Jesus did become sin. He was separated from the Father because He took our sin upon Him and nailed it's consequence to the cross. Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree (Gal 3:13).

You continually quote Isaiah 26:9 and neglect verse 10. Not all will learn righteousness!! And this is your response? Do you not have eyes? And I quote you, "Then they say, 'there you go Ray, the wicked won’t learn righteousness, you can show them favor but they won’t learn.’ Well I know that. That doesn’t contradict the verse above it, they just think it does. They want it to contradict, but it doesn’t." Have you done this at least once already this hub, JL? Reminder: "That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment." Don't you see what you're doing?

Regarding the just and the unjust, parallel this with the parable of the wheat and the tares. The landowner told his workers not to pull up the tares yet, so the wheat would not be harmed in the process. However, on the day the Reaper comes (Jesus), He will separate the wheat from the tares; the tares will be bound and cast into the FIRE, and the wheat will be gathered into His barn (heaven). This is why it rains both on the just (wheat) and the unjust (tares) right now, until He comes.

Okay, onto the next...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Regarding ALL:

Mat 12:26 "all idle word" (idle is the condition)

Mat 4:4 "all words that proceed out of the mouth of God." (the Bible is the condition) Speaking of God's Word, have you not already stated twice that the Word isn't what it says? Not all will learn righteousness and there is an eternal hell?

Rom 3:23 truly means all. All have sinned, for the Word says if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). The difference is, those who have accepted Christ's atonement for their sin have their sins covered. Those who do not, do not have the covering.

1 Tim 4:10: Yes, Jesus is the Savior for all men, especially for those who believe (it is not finished). You can't twist this verse, for there will be more believers (not all). The Lord is putting off His return for this reason (2 Pet 3:9). He would have no need to put off His return if all men were already saved.

John 3:18 states, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Mat 7:21 "NOT EVERY ONE that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but" --- JL, this says NOT ALL!! Can't you see that? You go on to say, "But (only) he that does the will of My Father” (Matt 7:21b) So not a single person that DOESN’T do the will of Jesus’ Father, will be in the kingdom.

You've just totally contradicted yourself and your teaching that ALL will be saved. It is indeed "ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM." That is the TRUTH. Amen.

Now, off to my grocery shopping!! Love in our Lord to you, JL. Keep on keeping your heart open, please. I've read every word, and I pray you do the same for me...with patience.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

I appreciate you commenting on all that I posted. I am reading and re-reading all that you wrote. I know it was a lot but wow you kept up! your starting to post like me now hahaha.

-JL


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, it sure is nice getting along in the love of the Lord. I believe we will make progress, for we live by faith, right? I do pray you will read "Will He Know You?" and also "Who Do You Say That I AM" on my Judah's Daughter profile. God be with you ~~


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

you don't have to post this msg. I thought it was the best way instead of email to give you a heads up.

I certainly agree w/getting along w/the love of the lord in our hearts. I honestly hate arguing and likewise do not enjoy conflict. Unfortunately, it is a part of this human experience we all must endure to the end. I do apologize for past conversations where I presented myself in a less than godly manner. I'm human unfortunately and thou I strive for that higher calling, there are moments when I fail in maintaining my humility.

I just wanted to give you a heads up. I doubt your sitting by your comp waiting for my responses but I didn't want you to think I was stumped by your questions or avoiding them.

I'm still reading your other hubs and also attempting to work on my responses and trying to be thorough w/o going on and on but it's difficult for me because I'm very analytical & as a writer, I tend to want to explain the explanation for my explanation, etc. which can be maddening, even for me at times.

Additionally, I work in DC and without going into too much detail, I'm in a extremely political climate and dealing with major global issues and this week has not been very kind in regards to my free time that I normally enjoy where I can post freely and frequently.

I do apologize if it seems my responses are not a priority. Indeed, I consider these hubs & my responses to the questions you raised to be extremely important... but as a professional yourself, you must know that at times, life sometimes manages to get in the way of the things we consider high priority.

Hope all is well on your end.

JL


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, I so appreciate your kind message. I'm in the job-search stage at the moment, so anyone who reads this message, I would appreciate prayers. When I'm back in the work force, I'm sure I won't have as much time here as well. Thank you for letting the reading audience know. Praying for you as well :-)


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

What's your field of expertise? Are you on the East coast or west coast? I did a tremendous amount of praying over the weekend, not unlike every other weekend or day but I prayed that the lines of communication are kept open even if there is disagreement, there can be disagreement but still a loving atmosphere. :)

In addition to the above, I spent time researching even more to make sure that I presented clear answer(s) to the points brought up in our hub posts, I'm also going to try to explain my understanding more in depth. I think even if you disagree with the points I make, it will still give you a better insight into why I understand the Scriptures the way I do and what exactly I am stating that I have learned from my own studying and research.

-JL


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

My field of expertise? I guess I just study the Bible on foundational doctrines, which of course, we differ in our interpretations; namely, that what I quote as the Hebrew or Greek text is disputed by your founder(s). That's not going to get us anywhere, nor for the reading audience, in my humble opinion.

I am on the West Coast, actually ~ Carrie Bradshaw is just a Hub name, as you know. I would probably prefer that readers seek out your hubs if they wish to know more about your doctrinal beliefs and interpretations, rather than hash them out here, as I really am not open to accepting non-Hebrew/Greek translations of the Bible, since these are the original languages of the Bible and my Concordance is the only reference I have, which Bible scholars have used for generations.

I appreciate your loving spirit, and I respect you for that, as I'm sure is mutual. It's so much better than hostility ~ I have grown and you have grown, not to be so offended by what is shared on opposite ends of the spectrum. God bless you ~


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

I meant field of expertise as in the job search. You had mentioned you were in the job search stage.

In regards to interpretations, I too am referencing the original Greek and Hebrew Scriptures. The Concordance is a great tool, however it is not entirely accurate. No study tool is unfortunately. This is why were should use ALL tools at our disposal. It's unfortunate, but just because a person was or has been commissioned to translate, doesn't mean they translated correctly or honestly. There are many instances where translators are simply not consistent with the translations. Hell and Grave are just two examples. There are many such instances. The reason for this is biased opinions. The translators and the religions they represented "fudged" several points throughout Scripture in order to facilitate their doctrines. If the Scriptures state one thing and it doesn't fit with a doctrine, the translators by way of their religion made a few changes in order to make their doctrine appear more truthful. This is an accurate statement and has been proven more than once within the realms of bible scholarship. It is only until after the fact, do people finally realize, sometimes years later the errors they have made and the consequences of them. Look at the Catholic church and their shameful behaviors all through-out history. Only now are they beginning to realize and accept their actions and ungoldy and unscriptural. But they do not repent as they should, so their doctrines will not change. The same is true for EVERY religion out there. How many times have Jehovah's Witnesses claimed the end of the world was this year or that year. The same with LDS and others.

Honest scholarship by unbiased bible students has uncovered these purposeful or accidental errors for years. However, the churches and the religions they promote do not wish to give up their doctrines and thereby continue to promote false doctrines. Without those doctrines those religions and churches would wither away and die.

People all over the world throughout history have studied the Scriptures on their own and their knowledge is only as good as the tools they employ. Searching for the treasures of God's word is not a simple task that is undertaken and completed in a year or even 5 years. It is a lifelong venture.

You say your not open to accepting non-Greek and Hebrew translations of the bible and I have not presented anything less than that. I think that you beleive because I happen to agree with the exhaustive amount of research that Ray Smith has done that somehow I'm worshiping him or following him blindly. Ray Smith is a study tool, the assertions that I have presented here, although in accord with Ray's understanding of the Scriptures are based upon my own studying. Just so the record is clear, and you understand where I am coming from I do not belong to any religion or cult or man-made institution.

Of course I understand that people do not like to be presented with anything that contradicts their opinion. I respect that, beleive me. It's much better to have open discussions than to throw accusations and curses at each other. I actually worry about saying the wrong thing and ending this open communication we have been experiencing. I hate drama and hate arguing, unfortunately it can be a part of life in certain situations, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that potential and do my best to not be confrontational and appreciative of others understandings.

I think we agree on a great deal more than you may realize.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

In the spirit of sharing and understanding... you mentioned you only quote from the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures. I don't know if you knew this or not but just in case you didn't I've put together a list of Scriptures which are included in bibles today but if you know the original Greek and Hebrew, you know these are passages which are spurious and not Scriptural but people still try and use them to defend their doctrines.

SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Spurious means FALSE/Falsified, erroneously attributed origin, deceitful nature or quality. Below are spurious passages that are NOT in the original Hebrew and Greek yet are defended by people who claim because they were put in the bible by “translators” then they must be true. Honest lengthy scholarship would reveal these passages for what they are. False and together or when combined, they create false doctrines.

Matt. 5:23 without a cause

Matt. 6:13 For thine is the Kingdom, and the power,

and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matt. 6:25 or what ye shall drink*

Matt. 16:2 When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair

weather: for the sky is red.

Matt. 16:3 This entire verse

Matt. 17:21 and fasting

Matt. 18:12 into the mountains

Matt. 2O:7 and whatsoever is right, that shall ye

receive

Matt. 22:13 and take him away

Matt. 23:35 son of Barachias*

Matt. 24:10 and shall hate one another*

Matt. 24:31 sound of a*

Matt. 24:41 women shall be

Matt. 25:6 cometh

Matt. 27:52 and the graves were opened*

Matt. 27: 53 and went*

Matt. 28:19 therefore

Mark 4:37 so that it was now full*

Mark 6:51 beyond measure and wondered

Mark 7:8 For as the washing of pots and cups:

and many other such like things as ye do

Mark 7:14 unto me every one of you

Mark 9:24 with tears

Mark 9:29 and fasting

Mark 9:44 This entire verse

Mark 9:45 into the fire that shall never be quenched

Mark 9:46 This entire verse

Mark 9:47 fire

Mark 9:49 and every sacrifice shall be salted

with salt

Mark 10:24 for them that trust in riches

Mark 10:30 houses and brethren and sisters and mothers

and children and land with persecutions*

Mark 14:30 twice*

Mark 14:68 and the cock crew

Mark 14:72 the second time* twice*

Mark 16:9-20 All these verses

Luke 2: 40 in spirit

Luke 8: 45 and sayest thou, Who touched me?

Luke 16:16 and every man presseth into it

Luke 17:12 which stood afar off*

Luke 17:35 women

Luke 18:11 with himself*

Luke 22:43 This entire verse

Luke 22:44 This entire verse

Luke 22:68 me, nor let me go

Luke 23:5 teaching*

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father forgive them;

for they know not what they do

Luke 24:42 and of an honeycomb

John 1:25 asked him, and*

John 3:13 which is in heaven

John 4:9 or the Jews have no dealings with the

Samaritans

John 5:3 waiting for the moving of the water

John 5:4 This entire verse

John 5:25 and now is*

John 8:1-11 all these verses

John 8:59 going through the midst of them and so

passed by

John 16:16 because I go to the Father

John 19:23 and also his coat*

John 21:25 This entire verse

Acts 6:3 Holy Ghost and (should read "spirit of")

Acts 6:8 Faith (should read "grace")

Acts 8:37 This entire verse

Acts 9:31 churches (should read "church") were

(should read "was")

Acts 15:32 and confirmed them*

Acts 18:5 pressed in the spirit (should read

"earnestly

occupied with the Word")

Acts 18:21 I must by all means keep this feast that

cometh

in Jerusalem: but

Rom. 3:22 and upon all

Rom. 6:12 it in

Rom. 7:6 that being dead (should read "being dead

to that")

Rom. 8:26 for us

Rom. 11:6 But if it be of works, then it is no more

grace;

otherwise work is no more work

Rom. 14:6 and he that regardeth not the day, to

the Lord

he doth not regard it

1 Cor. 2:1 testimony (should read "mystery")

1 Cor. 6:20 and in your spirit, which are God's

1 Cor. 7:5 fasting and

1 Cor. 10:28 for the earth is the Lord's and the

fullness thereof

1 Cor. 15:24 cometh

2 Cor. 4:14 by (should read "with")

Gal. 3:1 that ye should not obey the truth

Gal. 3:17 in Christ

Gal. 5:19 adultery

Gal. 5:21 murders

Eph. 5:9 Spirit (should read "light")

Eph. 5:30 of his flesh, and of his bones

2 Thess. 2:9 Even him

1 Tim. 3:16 God (should read "who")*

1 Tim. 4:12 in spirit*

1 Tim. 6:5 from such with draw thyself*

2 Tim. 3:3 without natural affection*

Heb. 12:18 mount that might be touched and that burned

with fire (should read "fire that might be

touched and burned")*

Heb. 12:20 or thrust through with a dart*

James 5:1 Confess your faults (should read "Therefore

confess your sins")*

1 Pet. 2:5 spiritual (before the word "sacrifices")

1 Pet. 3:8 courteous (should read "humble")

2 Pet. 1:1 God and our (should read "our Lord and")*

1 John 3:16 of God

1 John 5:7 in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy

Ghost: and these three are one

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness

in earth

1 John 5:13 and that ye may believe on the name of

the Son of God

Rev. 1:17 unto me, Fear not*

Rev. 2:22 their (should read "her")*

Rev. 5:3 neither under the earth*

Rev. 5:9 us (omitted by the Alexandrian Manuscript,

one of the three oldest Manuscripts known)

Rev. 5:10 us (should read "them") we

(should read "they")

Rev. 5:13 and under the earth*

Rev. 6:2 to conquer (should read "he conquered")*

Rev. 9:4 neither any green thing*

Rev. 9:13 the four horns of*

Rev. 10:6 and the sea, and the things which are

therein*

Rev. 11:17 and art to come*

Rev. 12:12 inhibitors of* of (before the words

"the sea")

Rev. 14:5 before the throne of God*

Rev. 14:12 here are they*

Rev. 16:5 and shalt be (should read "the holy")*

Rev. 16:7 another out of*

Rev. 16:11 and their sores* of their deeds*

Rev. 16:17 from the throne*

Rev. 18:22 of whatsoever craft he be* and the stone

of a millstone shall be heard no more at

all in thee*

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again

until the thousand Years were finished*

Rev. 21:24 of them which are saved* and honor*

Rev. 21:26 and honor*

Rev. 22:3 more*


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie,

Sorry in my posting regarding spurious passages, I placed asterisks next to certain passages, I forgot to include this explanation of the reason for the asterisks.

* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript.

Those not marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic AND Vatican Manuscripts.

Anyone who has any knowledge of the original Scriptures in Hebrew and Greek, of course knows about the spurious passages, these shouldn't be included in our modern bibles, but yet they are. Translator error or outright deception?

One in particular proves the trinity doctrine as false.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, thank you for that information; however, none of those particular items would be strong enough to support a foundational doctrine on their own. All doctrine is founded upon in-depth, doctrinal study, which would include all passages relating to the doctrine in the Bible available to us (and I say this because some books were added ~ like the Apocrypha, or omitted ~ like Enoch and Jasher).

Per our earlier discussion, the word for eternal and everlasting, for example, you simply disagree means what the Greek dictionary says it means. There's nothing strong enough to convince me the Greek definition is incorrect.

We all have to do the best we can with what we have. I believe the Lord God knows when we intentionally and willfully change the meaning of His Word to suit our own fancies. Sure, I'd LOVE to believe there is no hell and that all will be saved, but then I would be following a doctrine that cannot be proven Biblically 100%, without ignoring, changing or mistranslating what is written that states otherwise. There's no budging for me on this.

I've recently been on a forum where I have challenged some of the Catholic practices, though their roots are true (the gospel message). They believe the church was founded upon Peter (Petros, Kepha, Cephus), which means "piece of rock". The church was founded upon the Petra (boulder) of Jesus Christ. Praying to or with dead saints is prohibited in the Bible, yet they continue to do this. There are many things, but there's no way I would ever change my mind about these things.

Regarding Orthodox Christianity and their traditional teaching that Lucifer is Satan ~ I have challenged them as well, and to date, no one can prove that Lucifer is indeed Satan, but they still teach it, even though.

I am a Bible-believing follower of Christ. I don't claim any denomination, only Jesus, the Petra of my faith. This is the only Church He has. His church. He is the High Priest of that Church, and He makes us to be not only His children, but also priests with Him. We don't need an earthly priesthood any longer, as LDS insist we do.

You talk about Jehovah's Witnesses or any other "cult"; they have literally rewritten the Bible, as those of your Ray Smith are doing ~ the Concordant Literal Translation. There is no need to re-write the Bible...ever!!! If you wish to interpret the Bible in a particular way, simply find proof of the original languages that absolutely support your doctrine and publish the study tools. Why anyone would dare to re-write the Bible is incredibly blasphemous, in my opinion.

Anyhow, I could go on and on ~ but I have addressed many of L. Ray Smith's interpretations in this hub and just the mere fact that he is way off the mark with this information would cause any jury to doubt his credibility. I understand you don't claim to follow ALL of his teachings, so it's good you remain open to further study and reasoning.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie feel free to read any of my hubs. I welcome your comments and enjoy this open dialogue.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I sure like you as a person, JL ~~ this has been wonderful. I know if you and I truly love our God, He is faithful to reveal all truth by the power of His Holy Spirit. What's most important is the gospel, and I know you believe that Jesus is the Only Way, that He existed as the Word before He became the Word made flesh, born of a virgin, coneived by the Holy Spirit, gave His life for us on the cross and is our Savior, our righteousness, our holiness, our everlasting (yes, everlasting) LIFE. Amen!!


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 7 years ago from West Allis

This is an excellent hub.

Christianity has been infiltrated by many eastern philosophies. People try to reconcile these particular teachings with the Bible's particular teachings.

2Timothy 4:3-4 'For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts, shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.'

Many today, even Christians, treat the Bible as a virtuous book of nice ideals that can be used and compromised to fit anyone's personal'truths'. I know too many people in this life who don't seek the truth and will of the Lord - but rather - the truth of religious teachings in regards to their own existence. The truth is only what what they imagine is best for them. The philosophies they embrace are merely a melting pot of established religious teachings and used to justify any lifestyle they choose to live.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

A M Werner, amen, brother. I've seen someone of this false doctrine state that Peter was called of God, and then referenced a verse "Simon called Peter" as biblical proof of this. Now, any logical person can say my name is Adelia and I am called Dee Dee as a nickname. But that doesn't mean Adelia or Dee Dee is "called of God". I just shake my head...If L. Ray Smith uses this style of interpretation and teaching, this group is really waaaaay off the mark, worse than I ever imagined.

I've seen so many people of all walks of life and faiths that simply do not go to the original languages and accept the definitions as truth, just because it goes against their habitual or personal belief system. Why not accept the truth as it is written? I will never get it. The Word is so full of love, justice, prophecy, and most importantly, SALVATION.

Thank you for your insightful comment. God bless you!!


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

I agree, it has been very nice sharing this time around.


Justcallmeleroy 6 years ago

JL, Not everyone will be able to call Him The Lord there God.

K.J.V. Zec 13:8.9 8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


thad 6 years ago

For who has resisted God's Will? Did Pharaoh also have free will or did he do God's will? I don't think he was a beviever. With love, Thaddeus Cole


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Pharaoh enslaved the Jews and did not become one. Just as God created Satan to accomplish His will, and Satan and his angels are predestined for the Lake of Fire, they are still subject to God's authority; so it was with Pharaoh. If you do a study of God's Word, you will also note that kings (i.e. the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon) were fallen angels (cherabim). Pharaoh could also have been. If you want more proof of this, read my hub on Judah's Daughter called, "Is Lucifer the Devil?"

Though God DESIRES all men to be saved, His Word states clearly that not all will be. There will be a separation of wheat and tares (Mat 13:40), the same as sheep and goats (Mat 25:33). Jesus said in John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Do you see "sheep and goats" here?

In Matthew 25:33, Jesus said, "He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left." What's the significance of right and left?

He says in the same chapter, verse 34, "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Then, in verse 41 He says, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;".


thad  6 years ago

Just answer the question???? The first one if you can! there is no eternal loke in strong's! So your going to call God a liar? No! Then why did you state above God's desires won't be done! When scripture says His very will and desires will be done. With love, Thaddeus Cole


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

What is an eternal loke? Is loke a word? What question? About Pharaoh? I answered that for you. Obviously, God is allowing your eyes to be blinded to the truth. Now, THAT is evident.


thad 6 years ago

that word should be lake I'm sorry! No you did not answer anythng Carrie. You said that pharaoh enslaved the jewish people and did not become one. Where did that come from? What does it have to do with doing God's will? The question was did pharoah do what God wanted him to do or did he use free will? Then you sad the kng of tyre and the king of babylon were fallen angels? That one made me laugh out loud! Where do you come up wth this unscriptual stuff carrie! You say that I'm blind and that is evident. Just answer THE QUESTION Carrie! Don't just say something that has nothing to do with what we are talking about and then say you answered my question! What is evident is that you will not answer a direct question, obviously! If you will answer those 2 questions above, dd pharoah do his will or God's? Did he have a choose over whether or not his heart was hardened by God? God's word says His will and desire will be done right? If not please let me know where in scripture it says that. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. making fun of someone because they typed the worng word instead of answering their question says alot about that person, but I forgive you.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, Thad, you really need to READ many of my hubs on Judah's Daughter thoroughly. I will have to answer you here with a hub comment:

LAKE OF FIRE/HELL

The Bible literally states "lake of fire" (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14-15; 21:8) so we don't need a Strong's to answer that one for you. You can look up the word geenna (Greek 1067) if you so choose and all the passages Jesus taught about it: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5. You can also look up Jas 3:6.

If you want to know the other meanings of Hell and their scripture passages:

Hades (Greek 86): Mt 11:23 & 16:18; Lu 10:15 & 16:23; Ac 2:27 & 2:31; Re 1:18, 6:8, 20:13 and 20:14.

Tartaroo (Greek 5020): 2 Pe 2:4.

SATAN HAS CHILDREN!

The Bible is full of Jesus' own words about good seed (wheat/sheep) and bad seed (tares/goats): God's children and the devil's children:

Satan uses people to do his will, and likewise, those who do the will of God are God’s children. Mat 13:37-39 tells us we are either children of God or children of the devil: Jesus said, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the Enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.”

Pharaoh was a child of the devil (check out Ezekiel 31:18), just like Judas (who Jesus called a devil in John 6:70). God still has supreme authority over the will of Satan and his angels, especially when it comes to protecting His own children. This is why Israel was spared and so was Job. God doesn't protect Satan's children. In fact, look up how God gives one over to a "reprobate mind" (Rom 1:28; Heb 6:8) and "powerful delusions" (2 Thes 2:11) because of their sin and hardened hearts. See, it's God who sends Satan and his children to hell...because they refuse to do God's will. They are sold out to other gods and their own sin, thus doing Satan's will.

Jesus again confirms Satan has children when He rebuked the Jewish leaders in John 8:44 by saying, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.”

Jesus called BELIEVERS His “friends”, yet we are told that anyone who is a “friend of the world” is hostile towards God! (Jas 4:4) Jesus said, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” (John 15:19)

Jesus then told us, “Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and cast insults at you, and spurn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.” (Mat 5:12; Luke 6:23)

FALLEN ANGELS ARE KINGS (examples):

As far as the king of Tyre, the Bible says he was a cherub in the Garden of Eden ~ read it for yourself (Ezek 28:13). The king of Babylon was "fallen from heaven", which indicates he also was a fallen angel...that would be Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12. Pharaoh was also cursed (Ezek 31:18). Angels do not die. Therefore, Lucifer was not merely buried in a grave. Isaiah was a PROPHET. You know the Antichrist is said to come up out of the Abyss (the deepest "abyss" of Sheol/Hades is Tartaroo) and go to destruction (Rev 17:8). I mean, what does Rev 9:2 say? "When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss." Abyss is also translated "bottomless pit".

How could any of these kings who ruled after the flood have been in existence prior to the flood? Obviously, they did. Look up the word angel in Strong's and you will see they can be kings, pastors, priests or teachers! And, indeed, angels are recorded in the Bible as appearing in human form...male.

You ask, and I will answer what the Lord lays on my heart. If you are looking for me to contradict the Word of God, you are mistaken. I contradict your beliefs because they are obviously based on your own preferred interpretation. Just read those passages for yourself.

I'm doing my best to explain, but if you don't understand I cannot MAKE you understand. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Obviously, I care and that's why I'm taking the time. If you are not open-minded, please understand that I am not open to universalist teaching whatsoever. I'm sorry we don't agree ~ I just want you and others not to waste one more day outside of the salvation of Christ Jesus! The harvest is ripe and the workers are few! Time is running out!


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

CRITICAL ERR OF SALVATION FOR ALL

You - I have become aware of an entire group that is against the biblical "Christian" teaching that only those IN CHRIST JESUS will be saved.

Me- The doctrine does not teach that everyone or anyone will be saved "outside" of Jesus Christ. It teaches that everything was made through Jesus Christ and everything will return to Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16,20).

You- This doctrine teaches that ALL will be saved, even to the point that Satan himself and his fallen angels, and everyone who rebels against God will simply be purified by God's all consuming, spiritual fire (there is no HELL) and will indeed be SAVED by that fire (on earth and in the after-life) and we all live happily ever after.

Me- The Bible teaches that all of the above is true. Yes all will be saved. God Judgements are corrective and serve a purpose. God loves his enemies and commands us to also. He is not a hypocrite to the doctrines he teaches. Jesus died for his enemies and prayed for their forgiveness when they crucufied him. Good books that can teach you the purpose of Gods judgments are The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes, Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin. Heres a question for you to get you started : If the wrath of God is coming to Israel to the uttermost (1Ths 2:16) and it will be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of Judgement(Mark 6:11) and all Israel shall be saved (Rom 11:26) . How exactly are the Jews going to be punished by the wrath of God to the uttermost extreme and still be saved if theres others who are punished worse than this for all eternity and are not going to be saved ?

The word hell has no place in the Bible. It is Hades , Gehenna or tartaroo. Jesus went to hades as that is where dead people go . Did you feel Jesus suffered in HELL or that he died and went to hades ? Big difference ! Gehenna is a location in Israel and is a symbol for the upcoming Judgement . No where in the Old testament was Gehenna a place of eternal torment. We let what the Old Testament says about Gehenna define what Gehenna is.

You- They also believe man has no choice to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but that God makes that choice for them. Otherwise, they claim that Christians are saying God is weak.

Me - Yes this is true we give all the credit to God for saving us. The scriptures teach that no one is seeking after God(Rom 3:11). THAT IS NO ONE! Not even you. It also teaches we are saved by grace through faith and this is NOT of ourselves that it is a gift(Eph 2:8). You have not chosen me but I have chosen you(John 15:16). We also believe that it was the goodness of God that led us to repentance(Rom 2:4). We take no personnel credit to anything we have even our faith our belief and salvation. ( 1 Cor 4:17). We do not glory in ourselves like we did not receive it like others do.

The ROOT: Misinterpretation of SCRIPTURE

You- Here is my response: You are quoting Isaiah 26:9 and you asked me to show you a verse that says, when His judgments are in the earth, NOT all the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness. I do have that verse! Read the VERY NEXT VERSE, verse 10, and I quote the Word, "Though the wicked is shown favor (the Jews are God's preferred), He does NOT learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD."

Me - Your quote of Ish 26:10 supports Ish 26:9 . When you show favor to a wicked person he does not learn righteousness but when Gods Judgements are in the earth he will learn righteousness. Jesus commands us to do good to those who hate us and when we do the wicked still will go away and do not perceive the majesty of the Lord and deal unjustly in the land of uprightness but when God judges these people they will learn righteousness. Acts 17:31 says that God is going to judge the world IN righteousness.

You - In doing hours and hours of study to answer every verse quoted to me by one of these members, I noticed this to be the case many times. One verse without reading the very next one, which then denies, or limits the whole context of "the rest of the story". We can see how Satan himself uses this practice when he tempts Jesus Christ in the desert.

You - In Luke 4:9-11, verse 10 quotes Satan as saying, “for it is written, ‘HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU, and ‘ON THEIR HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, LEST YOU STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” Indeed, Satan was quoting the prophesy written in the Old Testament in Psalm 91:11 accurately! His motive, though, was to tempt Jesus to throw himself down off the top of the pinnacle of the temple on which he stood! Jesus answered him in verse 12 with scripture: “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST’”. Hmmm. Did Jesus just say he was “THE LORD, YOUR GOD?" (Satan’s GOD?). YES. We see this answer in Psalm 91:12. Did you notice that Satan only quoted ONE VERSE in Psalms and neglected the VERY NEXT VERSE in Psalms?

Me - Your entire premise to this argument has no foundation because the next verse after Psalm 91:11,12 is not the one you quoted. Satan quotes the Psalm and the verse Jesus quotes is in Deut 6:16. The verse Satan quotes is true but the truth of the verse does not mean we should tempt God with that truth. Your statements here show you have never done a study how the New Testament quotes the Old Testament. Read The Mystery of the Kingdom by Andrew Jukes. What you are saying is a tool used of the Devil was a principle used over and over again by the Apostles who were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Its a very short read but very exciting it should really stir up the spirit in you if it is there. The book is out of print but there is a website called www.alampthatburns.net. You can find the book there for free online. There are a lot more problems with this paper but I feel I covered enough for now. Read the introduction to that book it will take a very short amount of time and if you are familiar with Samuel and Kings I doubt you will put it down.

God Bless,

Matt

P.S Try answering that question I pruposed above! ;)


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians22067, Once again you have practiced the M.O. (method of operations) of Satan when you stop at Colossians 1:20. Why not go on with verses 21-23? "And although you were FORMERLY ALIENATED and HOSTILE in mind, engaged in EVIL deeds, yet He has NOW reconciled you in HIS fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--IF indeed you CONTINUE in the FAITH firmly established and steadfast, and NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of THE GOSPEL THAT YOU HAVE HEARD, which was proclaimed in ALL creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."

Does this passage state WHEN we are reconciled? NOW or AFTER OUR DEATH? Does it state HOW we were reconciled? HIS death or FIRE after OUR death? Does it state WHAT we DO to be saved? The words "FORMERLY" and "IF" might shed some light in your mind. "Formerly" indicates REPENTANCE. If we CONTINUE in FAITH indicates REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE. The FAITH that is NOT MOVED is obviously HEARD.

Jesus said He would draw ALL men unto Himself ~ WHEN? When He is lifted up from the earth! HOW does that drawing happen? Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God! If any man hears and rejects the Word of God, thus rejecting His drawing, He is not a child of God, but a child of Satan. I will list some scriptures here to confirm this truth, but I also invite you to read the hubs and comments by those who follow your doctrine, whether you follow L. Ray Smith, Andrew Jukes or Thomas Allin (none of whose names are written in my Bible): "Salvation: Unless God DRAG Us?" and "Scriptures Inspired for the L. Ray Smith Followers". Here are the scriptures to confirm what I just said:

John 12:32 "And I, if I AM LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, will draw ALL men to Myself." To draw and to save are two different things!!

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH" (Do you see "saved through fire" here?)

Romans 10:17 "So FAITH comes from HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of CHRIST."

Jesus said in John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who HEARS My word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into JUDGMENT, but has passed out of death into life." Judgment is equivalent with DEATH, not LIFE.

And in John 12:47-48 Jesus said, "If anyone HEARS My sayings and DOES NOT keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." Please don't let Satan stop you there! Keep reading THE NEXT VERSE: "He who REJECTS Me and DOES NOT RECEIVE MY SAYINGS, has one who JUDGES him; the WORD I SPOKE is what will JUDGE him at the last day."

And in John 15:22 Jesus said, "If I had not come and SPOKEN to them, they would not have sin, but now they have NO EXCUSE for their sin."

Jesus said in John 8:44, "YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and you want to do the desires of your father." So, we have TWO fathers? NO WAY.

Jesus said in Matthew 13:38, "the field is the world; and as for the GOOD, these are the SONS of the kingdom; and the TARES are the SONS of the EVIL ONE;" Sons of the evil one?

Now, if you were to compare the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13) with the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25), you would know that Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (which correlates with the wheat). In John 10:11 Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." You mean his death doesn't apply to the goats? That's right.

The tares and the goats are cast into the Lake of Fire ~ they rejected the Word of God when they heard it! God doesn't even "discipline" anyone but His children:

Hebrews 12:6-8 state, "the Lord disciplines those He loves, and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? Now if you are without any discipline, in which all sons share, then you are illegitimate and not God's sons."

If discipline and judgment (judgment also means condemnation) are the same, then Romans 8:1 would not apply: "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Also, if Satan and his children are disciplined by God, they would be called children of God even now. Instead, the Word says in John 3:18 "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Does condemnation mean judgment? Yes! Look at another version of this verse: "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

We do not have salvation after death through fire. Judgment is not discipline, nor salvation; you need to get this straight.

Now, regarding Psalm 91:11-12, why did Satan leave out verse 13 then? "You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down." You practice the same thing! Why would you say to me, "What you are saying is a tool used of the Devil was a principle used over and over again by the Apostles who were inspired of the Holy Spirit"? That is blasphemous! They never did such things!!

I challenge you to read the hubs and comments I mentioned above. I have refuted your doctrine quite thoroughly, all of which could not be addressed in this one hub. I pray you will see the Light of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 state, "if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Do you believe Jesus is the image of God? That He is God in the flesh? I certainly hope so. Likewise, because He is God, know that His Word does not contradict itself EVER. Don't let Satan use his tactics on your mind ~ to keep you blinded by his false, twisted, coiled-serpent doctrine. It's a matter of eternal life or death! NOW is the ACCEPTABLE time for SALVATION (2 Corinthians 6:2); not LATER! Salvation is by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ through the hearing of His Word NOW, not through FIRE later!! This is why the great commission was given to the Apostles and continues today ~ to preach the Word to every nation!! Not just sit back and let people think God will force them into salvation in the next life through fire. That's a LIE from the PIT OF HELL.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Carrie ,

All these verses you quote are true. They are verses in the Bible. I can assure you I never overlooked them. A major part of your misunderstanding about what you think any who believes along these lines is that you think we are saying someone will be saved outside the truth of these verses. No one is going to magically appear converted. A is the start when we were all children of wrath and Z is the finish when we will all be children of God. Repentance,belief ,faith,judgement are all what is used to get from A to Z. When have I ever said these verses are not true?

God is going to judge the world. He is going to use the elect (the sheep) to judge the world. We are curently obedient to all the verses you quoted to me. Thats why we can help him judge the world during the kingdom because we are mature sons of God who obey the principles he teaches us. Love, mercy, righteousness etc... Why do you think he teaches us these principles ? So we can throw them all away when we spent all our lives training to refine them ? These are the principles God uses to judge the world. God judges the world IN and WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS. What does that mean to you ? Jesus teaches us these things because that is who he is. He does not become someone else in the judgement of the wicked and the goats. He remains the same always. What do you actually believe the elect will be doing throughout the millenium ? Forsaking what we have learned ? We will be subduing all things back to Christ that God can become all in all. Hence judging the world IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Another major part of your misunderstanding about what and why you do not understand this is that you do not understand the differences between the Kingdom Of God and salvation. Not everyone will be in the kingdom of God and learn the way of righteousness in this life and not everyone will enter into that Kingdom when Christ returns . Not everyone will judge the world with Christ because only a few (few chosen) find the narrow road. The majority(many called) will say to me IN THAT DAY Lord Lord but I will say depart into the lake of fire for your judgement. This is not the end ! This is the beginning of the millenium and the white throne judgement (lake of fire) is going to begin. When the judgement is ended(the millenium) all things will be subdued back to Christ and God will be all in all. Everything you said about repenting and believing and exercising faith are all true. I have never said that anyone should have such a cavalier attitude about believing the Gospel or preaching the Gospel as you claim I do. Because I know that God will remain faithful to his children and sincere to his own teachings does not mean that I underestimate the gift of the high calling that is in Christ Jesus of ruling and reigning and judging over the nations of this earth. Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection not oh well I am going to be saved anyway.

You - We do not have salvation after death through fire. Judgment is not discipline, nor salvation; you need to get this straight.

Me - 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Me - Teaching here in Titus 2:12 is the same Greek word chastening in Hebrews 12 and 1 Cor 11.

????????

paideuo? (chasten)

pahee-dyoo'-o

From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

You - We do not have salvation after death through fire. Judgment is not discipline, nor salvation; you need to get this straight.

Me - I guess in order to this straight I have to ignore these verses and than Ill get it. NO THANK YOU.

Me - The sheep have judgement now through fire. That is what the Bible likens our judgement to. FIRE! Jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Jesus came to set fire on the earth and what will He be if it be already kindled? When did Jesus light things on fire ? He is talking about those that are judging themselves now with the fire of his words that burns their carnality out of their lives.

Beloved think it not strange concerning the firey trial ... For judgement must begin at the house of God.

Fire is Judgement which leads to salvation. If we judge ourseves now and learn and apply these principles of righteousness now we will not be condemn to the great white throne lake of FIRE judgement later. We will reign with Christ and help judge and subdue instead of being the ones who are being judged in the lake of fire.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Me- Gods judgements are grand a wise and full of wisdom that contain his principles and his character. What sounds more demonic to you that God changes and becomes a hypocrite to what he commands us or that he uses the principles he instructs us to learn because he applies them ?

You-"What you are saying is a tool used of the Devil was a principle used over and over again by the Apostles who were inspired of the Holy Spirit"? That is blasphemous! They never did such things!!

Me- The Apostles quoted verses out side of their original Old Testament context all the time. They even proof texted the Bible in numerous occasions. Read that book I told you about it is a very small book . www.alampthatburns.net. The Mystery of the Kingdom by Andrew Jukes. It will take you 15 minutes to read the intro were he shows what you are saying they never did and is blasphemeous over and over again. Its not my opinion or my interpretation its just fact. The Apostles quote the Old out of its original context all of the time. They understand that something that is said remains true outside of its context.

Me - Instead of quoting me a bunch of verses about being blind , which I can just say apply to you. Why do we not keep this very simple. You feel God is going to burn people with fire for all eternity , I feel God is going to save the whole world . Im sure you would agree with these verses :

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

If what you believe is the truth of the Gospel that God is going to burn the vast majority of his children in real fire for ever than give me one proof just one that will present me a diffucilty in answering. I will do my best to answer that question. I will present you with one as well. Lets see whos council stands .

Here is mine for you and its not my best one because this letter has gotten way to long :

If Israel is going to experience the wrath of God to the uttermost (1Ths 2:16). It is going to be more tolerable than Sodom and Gommarah in the day when God judges the world( Ma


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Here is the rest of the last reply. Im not sure why it was posted twice and cut off at the end.

Here is mine for you and its not my best one because this letter has gotten way to long :

If Israel is going to experience the wrath of God to the uttermost (1Ths 2:16). It is going to be more tolerable than Sodom and Gommarah in the day when God judges the world( Matt 10:15) than for the Jews. All Israel is going to be saved after they are raised from the dead( Rom 11:15,26) .

If God is really going to burn the majority of his children with fire for all eternity and never save them than how is it possible that God is going to judge and punish Israel and the Jews worse than these people and he is still going to save Israel ? Explain to me how burning in fire forever is less of a judgement than being saved ?

Lets keep it simple. 1 question . Present me a difficulity and lets see who is fighting agaisnt the Scripture. Answer my question I will answer yours. Give me your best case that God is going to burn his children in fire forever. If this is the case I should not be able to answer it lest I be found to fight agaisnt God. Lets see you answer these 2 scriptural truths I presented to you.

-Matt


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians22067: Really, I should write a hub to answer you, but here goes:

You said, "Not everyone will be in the kingdom of God and learn the way of righteousness in this life and not everyone will enter into that Kingdom when Christ returns."

Me - This is true, but don't insinuate there is a second life or world to "learn righteousness". You quoted Titus 2:12 "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD;" This says it all.

You said, "The majority(many called) will say to me IN THAT DAY Lord Lord but I will say depart into the lake of fire for your judgement. This is not the end! This is the beginning of the millenium and the white throne judgement (lake of fire) is going to begin." You also said, "the high calling that is in Christ Jesus of ruling and reigning and judging over the nations of this earth. Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection not oh well I am going to be saved anyway."

Frankly, most Universalists share the latter attitude of "oh well, I am going to be saved anyway." The rest of what you said here is simply inaccurate. You'd better read Revelation 19:20-21:1! The beast and false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan bound at the beginning of the millennial reign. Everyone else is killed with the sword by the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Considering that Christ returns with the saints who've gone before us, their bodies will be resurrected (the first resurrection) to reign with Him for the millennial reign. That's why they are blessed! The unbelieving will not be bodily resurrected until AFTER the millennial reign ~ at which time THEY will face the judgment seat of Christ and be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with Satan who is released for a short time (AFTER the millennial reign) and with him those nations he deceived while he was released.

You quoted 1 Cor 11:31-32 "But if we judged (1252 decide, discern) ourselves rightly, we would not be judged (2919 to try, punish). But when we are judged (2919), we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned (2632 JUDGE AGAINST, sentence, condemn, damn) along with the world." While 1252 has a dual meaning, we must take this entire passage in context of “discipline” and “condemnation”. This judging of ourselves is conviction bringing us to repentance. If we don't repent, we are CONDEMNED. John 3:18 "He that believeth on Him is NOT CONDEMNED: but he that believeth NOT is CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Understanding these definitions will put in perspective the next verses you quoted in your comment.

You also quoted Tit 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Me - Jesus has appeared to ALL men, so there is no excuse!

You said, "When did Jesus light things on fire? He is talking about those that are judging themselves now with the fire of his words that burns their carnality out of their lives."

M3 - Those who are judging themselves NOW? Now is correct. Fire of His words? Where do you get that? We already read that “the rest were KILLED with the sword by His mouth (Word)”. This "fire" is not that of fire and brimstone, nor is it a lake of fire. The Greek word (4442) is pur and is both figurative and literal. While baptism by fire (baptism of the Holy Spirit) is figurative, Sodom and Gomorrah was LITERAL fire and brimstone. I invite you to read my hub on Judah’s Daughter called “Where or What is HELL?” for a better understanding of “fire and brimstone”. Jesus compares the Lake of Fire with Sodom and Gomorrah, not "tongues like fire" that rested upon each of the disciples on the day of Pentecost. To be on fire for the Lord is to be filled with the Spirit and speak by the Spirit. It is not a judgment or condemnation upon believers, for we all must be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

You said, "Beloved think it not strange concerning the firey trial... For judgement (2917 decision FOR or against 'crime':-avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, go to law, judgment) must begin at the house of God."

Me - Judgment here is FOR or AGAINST. It is not a sure outcome because of "fiery trials". Man has free will, which will propagate the outcome of God's judgment. Go on with the REST OF THAT SAME VERSE: "and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" Keep on going! Keep reading! That sounds pretty divisive (as in dividing the sheep from the goats; wheat from the tares) to me!

You said, "Fire is Judgement which leads to salvation. If we judge ourseves now and learn and apply these principles of righteousness now we will not be condemn to the great white throne lake of FIRE judgement later."

Me - Fire is a noun. Fiery is an adjective, which describes the noun TRIALS of discipline that beset the children of God. The noun, FIRE, will apply to those who are NOT children of God. Considering there are different meanings for "judgment" as shown, surely if we judge (1252) ourselves now, we will not come into the judgment (2632) of the lake of Fire, which is the second DEATH (not temporary).

Regarding your Romans 11 passages, please start at the beginning of the chapter so you have understanding. Paul is speaking to the Gentiles and explaining that Gentiles have obtained mercy to be grafted into the kingdom of God because of the Jews’ unbelief! Look at verse 11 if you don't believe me: 11 "But by their [Jews] transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them [Jews] jealous."

Now, let me type here the NAS Inductive Study Bible text to get a clearer view of what is said in verses 30-33:

"For just as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Jews] disobedience, so these [Jews] also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may now be shown mercy [as God is doing for the Gentiles]."

To properly understand the next verse 32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all", we must cross-reference that with Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST might be GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE." Please go back and re-read this, noticing the word "MIGHT".

Verse 33: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments (2917 decision FOR or AGAINST 'crime':-avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, go to law, judgment) and unfathomable His ways!"

So, as you can see, what you accuse the Apostles of doing, you do yourself! They did not do anything "anti-Christ".

You said, "If what you believe is the truth of the Gospel that God is going to burn the vast majority of HIS CHILDREN in real fire for ever than give me one proof just one that will present me a diffucilty in answering."

Me - That's where you err. God has children and Satan has children, and I covered this already. God's children do not come into condemnation judgment per Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 6 years ago from West Allis

Wow, I marvel at the extremes some will go. Sometimes the advice of Titus 3:9 is best Carrie - avoid foolish questions.

Matthew 23:24 'Ye blind guides which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.'

Some people just want to create havoc with the Word. A lawyers job is take the rules, the laws, the fixed unshakeable thing, and find cracks, disputes and seams to slide through. When people go to such lengths to disprove the obvious truths of the Bible, the real truth is they don't want the truth.

Luke 9:5 'And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.'

For some, the time to hear the truth has not yet come - and for others, the time to hear the truth will never come. Good luck Carrie - keep up the good fight.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

1 Thes 2:16 "[The Jews are] hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they [Gentiles] may be saved; with the result that they [Jews] always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them [Jews] to the utmost." The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord (the Great Tribulation, also known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble" Jer 30:7).

Through this wrath of God, His judgments which are poured out on the earth, God promised that "all ISRAEL (the remnant of the 12 tribes of Jacob, who was renamed Israel) will be saved" (Romans 11:26) ~ They are His chosen ones by which the believing Gentiles are grafted in - only by faith in Jesus Christ! Nowhere does the Bible say Israel will be saved AFTER DEATH. Romans 11:15 is speaking of the fact that salvation coming to the Gentiles provokes Israel unto salvation through Jesus Christ. Those (Jews) who accept Jesus and are thus accepted by Him will have "life from the dead" as the Gentiles who accept and are accepted by God through Jesus Christ. This is what the word "acceptance" means in this passage.

As far as Israelis that have died and will die without Christ thus far (those who do not learn righteousness when His jugments are poured out on the earth - Isaiah 26:10), the Bible also prophesies in Zechariah 13:7-9 that 2/3 will be "cut off" when it comes to Israel. The one-third (the remnant of) will be tested/tried (root word of trial) by "fire" (meaning fiery trials) during the "time of Jacob's Trouble" and will be saved, according to His promise in Romans 11:26. This remnant is the Woman who is led out into the wilderness in Revelation 12.

While you are connecting 1 Thes 2:16 with Matt 10:15, it is not just the rebellious Jews that face the judgment (when His judgments are on the earth) of God that will be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. You must read Matthew verse 14 along with 15 so as to understand WHO God is addressing! Matthew 10:14-15 "WHOEVER does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that HOUSE or that CITY, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, IT WILL BE [meaning yet to come] more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the [coming] day of judgment [aka The Day of the Lord] than for that CITY." When God's judgment (wrath) is poured out on the earth, it will be worse for them than what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. Truly, all of them will face the Lake of Fire (the final judgment) of which there is no "better than/worse than" scenerio. Are you in that house or city that does not receive the Words of Jesus?

Understand what is written here and it will enlighten you to the answers to your questions because your questions are based on an influenced filter of misinterpretation. Now the answers will be made clear. Again, I've already stated that the children of God do not come into condemnation judgment. Satan's children do.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

A M Werner, It is no coincidence that you quote Luke 9:5! My response to galatians22067 just spoke about this. I labor for these of this false doctrine, for all of heaven will rejoice should the Holy Spirit save ONE who can then go back, like Moses, and set the captives FREE. This is my prayer. Should thier hearts wax gross, the Lord will convince me to shake the dust, for certain!! Thank you for your encouragement and love. God bless us all!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians22067, I want to address "judging the world in righteousness" for a minute:

Acts 17:31 states "He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." He will judge the world in His righteousness. When did that proof come to all men? When He was raised from the dead!!

What about our righteousness? Isaiah 64:6 states, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

Jesus said in Matthew 5:20, "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Ephesians 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been saved through faith [not fire]; and that not of yourselves [you cannot atone for your own sin through fire], it is the gift of God [already given and available now for acceptance]; not as a result of works [nope, not of works either], so that no one may boast."

How do we obtain that righteousness? Through fire? No! 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, "He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Jesus] to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him [Jesus]." Without Jesus Christ we will not be saved. If fire were a way to be saved, Jesus would not have said in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (not through fire).

The saints will condemn all those who've accused us in judgment per Isaiah 54:17, "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment (verdict or sentence) you will condemn (to declare wrong, wickedness, depart). This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their vindication is from Me,' declares the LORD." Jesus Christ is our vindication (justification)! Jesus, who is God in the flesh is our Savior: Isa 43:11; Isa 45:21; Hosea 13:4 compare to Acts 4:12. He saved by His shed blood, not by fire.

The saints will indeed reign with Christ for the millennial reign, but when it is said in 1 Cor 6:2 that the saints will judge (2919) the world and the angels (angels means the fallen angels: the rulers of darkness, which are yet on the earth ~ false prophets and accusers of the brethren of Christ), this is based upon Isaiah 54:17. God's children and holy angels do not face any sort of judgment. Obviously, the judgment by the saints (2919) is not the judgment to the Lake of Fire (2632), which is performed by God alone.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

You - Nowhere does the Bible say Israel will be saved AFTER DEATH. Romans 11:15 is speaking of the fact that salvation coming to the Gentiles provokes Israel unto salvation through Jesus Christ.

Me- Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The casting away of Israel is the reconciling of the world. According to you its not because the world will not be reconciled. The receiving of Israel is life from the dead.

This says the exact opposite of what you said above.

You - Those (Jews) who accept Jesus and are thus accepted by Him will have "life from the dead" as the Gentiles who accept and are accepted by God through Jesus Christ. This is what the word "acceptance" means in this passage.

Me- Oh really these verses are talking about believing Jews ?

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off because of UNBELIEF not because they accepted Jesus Christ. Where are you coming up this stuff ? They are still going to obtain life from the dead and All ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED! God concludes everyone in unbelief so he will have mercy upon all. Not Some, ALL. The whole chapter is about Israel being blinded and in unbelief and when they are raised from the dead he saves them through judgement. According to you this is about believers ?

Me - Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Me- This is believers ? Defiling themselves with idols ? Needing cleansing ? After God raises them from the dead (Rom 11:15) He judges them and they learn and the whole house of Israel (Ezek 37:11) will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles come in(Rom 11:26).

The prophecys time line for All Israel being saved is given by the same prophet :

Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Me - When Sodom and Samaria return than Jerusalem will return and that is in the great white throne judgement when all Israel shall be saved. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

You - No where in the Bible does it say Israel will be saved after death.

Me- Do you still believe that ? Or are you wrong ? Do Israelites get saved after they have died in unbelief ? These verese say they do.

Me - You like Israel of old see no election outside of your own and are furious at the thought of having to share with others just like they were with the Gentiles. You would much rather sacrifice your children in fire to Molech like they did as well than learn mercy.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Why do you keep insisting on misunderstanding or misquoting my beliefs ? It is the judgement that causes all to have faith in the blood and trust in Jesus as their God . The fire is a symbol for the judgement that leads people to Christ not the diety that we should have faith in. Its symbolic you make it seem like I am saying I trust in a literal fire that saves people. Why can you not understand this and continue to misquote is beyond me.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

You said, "You - Those (Jews) who accept Jesus and are thus accepted by Him will have "life from the dead" as the Gentiles who accept and are accepted by God through Jesus Christ. This is what the word "acceptance" means in this passage. Because we were talking about the Bible (New Testament book of Hebrews 11), Jesus had already come, died and rose again. This is why I said, "Jews who accept Jesus".

Me- Oh really these verses are talking about believing Jews? My answer: YES

You said, "Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" My answer: "They" are the unbelieving Jews; "Thou" is the Gentiles. Re-read with this understanding.

You said, "Me- Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? " My answer: Do you not see the words "what shall the receiving of them be"? Receiving means acceptance on both sides (Man and God).

You said, "God concludes everyone in unbelief so he will have mercy upon all." Does the Word say "he will have mercy upon all"? No. It says, "He might have mercy upon all". You have changed the Word of God and its meaning! Did you cross-reference this to confirm the Word with Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST MIGHT be GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE."

Regarding the passage in Ezekiel, Jews were saved by the Law of Moses before Christ. So, they did not have the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ in this life, just like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all their descendants before Christ. This passage is speaking about the resurrection of those who lived by faith and the Law of Moses who died and will be resurrected to reign with Christ. Christ will reign in the New Jerusalem during the millennia.

So, just because they are Jews who died prior to the coming of their Messiah, it does not mean they were the "unbelieving" (like the Pharisees who transgressed the Commandment of God). They, like Messianic Jews and saved Gentiles since the time of Christ, will be raised from the dead in the first resurrection to reign with Christ for a thousand years.

To say such a thing as "You would much rather sacrifice your children in fire to Molech like they did as well than learn mercy" is blasphemous. When God casts the beast, the false prophet, Satan and all who did not receive Him (those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life), it is not a sacrifice to Molech!! You are blaspheming God!! Repent!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I'm quoting your own words, such as this: "It is the judgement that causes all to have faith in the blood and trust in Jesus as their God . The fire is a symbol for the judgement that leads people to Christ not the diety that we should have faith in." Are you kidding me? That diety we are to have faith in is Jesus Christ!!!

You said, "It is the judgement that causes all to have faith"? This fully contradicts Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are you saved through faith [in Christ]" and also contradicts Romans 10:17 "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God" ~ WHO is the Word of God? Read John 1! In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God ~ The WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us! That would be Jesus Christ! Also, look at Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." I could go on and on and on and on and on! Nowhere do we read that FIRE SAVES US. And if you want to use the scriptures that are misquoted/refuted in this hub above, don't bother, for I will simply come back to you with the proper interpretation that does NOT contradict the rest of God's Word!

Does fire judge us on the last day? What the Word of God say? Jesus Christ said in John 12:48, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the WORD I SPOKE [past tense] is what will judge him at the last day." That Word is not FIRE. The fire that comes from heaven to destroy Satan and his armies after the millennial reign is not the word of God. It's FIRE from heaven!

Your gospel is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In Galatians 1:8 Paul says, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" Repent!


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

I am not saying God is sacrificing to Molech . I am saying you are doing the same thing that Israel did in the past when they burnt their children in real fire as a sacrifice to Molech and this was an abomination to the Lord. You are claiming this is what is going to happen . God is going to burn humanity in literal fire forever. That is blasphemy. God Is LOVE! That is wickedness. The funny part about your beliefs is you do not actually believe half the verses you qoute to me . you say over and over we are saved by grace and this is not of yourself but you really do not believe that it is not of ourselves. If you did you would be wondering the same things I am. You really think you chose God. you dont even really give him credit for saving you. you made a decesion of your own free will to accept jesus christ and defied that no one is seeking out god. this conversation has gone to a game of freeze tag rather than a helpful discussion. very convulated and you assume a lot of things that I never said. God wills all men to be saved and you spit on that verse like he just wants it to happen but he cant get what he wants and ultimatley satan will bring more people to hell than Jesus will to heaven . ultimately satan defeats christ and wins the battle between good and evil. if what you are saying is true than satan makes a mockery out of jesus christ by taking the vast majority of gods creation to hell forever. what a sick set of beliefs.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

I'm quoting your own words, such as this: "It is the judgement that causes all to have faith in the blood and trust in Jesus as their God . The fire is a symbol for the judgement that leads people to Christ not the diety that we should have faith in." Not the "diety we should have faith in"? Are you kidding me? That diety we are to have faith in is Jesus Christ!!!

Thats what I said read my comment over and over. i said you make it seem like I am saying we should worship a fire as a diety and not Jesus Christ. the way you misquote me consistently is very annoying its almost like your illiterate.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

You said, "You are claiming this is what is going to happen . God is going to burn humanity in literal fire forever. That is blasphemy." Hey, I didn't SAY IT ~ God did! You may not want to accept the meaning for "eternal" and "everlasting" or "forever and ever", but God says "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" and "they have no rest day or night" and "their worm does not die"! You are rejecting the Word of God and therefore rejecting the living Word Himself, Jesus Christ.

God is love? Study the word love! Agapao is the word used for "God so loved the world" (social, moral, principled love). Agape love is that of friendship. Jesus laid His life down for His friends, the sheep. God's Word says that "friendship with the world is hostility toward God" (James 4:4)! Jesus doesn't even pray on behalf of the "world" (John 17:9)! You cannot refute God! You love the world more than loving the Word of God! You are therefore hostile toward God! You want the whole world to be saved and believe it to be so, contrary to God's Word! You love people more than God? You love your family more than God? You are disobeying God's Word. Jesus said we are not to love the world (agape), nor love our families more than Him or we are not worthy to be His disciples! (Matthew 10:37).

Check out this passage in Matthew 7:13 spoken by Jesus! "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." Your teaching is of the False Prophet. The false prophet worships the Anti-Christ who is called the "son of perdition (destruction)". The angel of the bottomless pit (hell) is named Abaddon/Apollyon (which means destruction). You are on that pathway to destruction and leading others along the same path!

Look at Luke 13:23-24: "And someone asked Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'"

Did Jesus ever say ALL WILL BE SAVED? Absolutely not! If He did, He would have been a false god because He would be lying! Satan lies; not Jesus, God with us!

You said, "The funny part about your beliefs is you do not actually believe half the verses you qoute to me . you say over and over we are saved by grace and this is not of yourself but you really do not believe that it is not of ourselves." You speak the WORDS OF SATAN, WHO IS THE FATHER OF LIES. There is no truth in what you stated! NONE! (John 8:44)

God's children are His, so anyone who is not saved does not belong to God and He has not lost anything. All evil will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Satan, his angels and his children...forever and ever, eternally and forevermore! If you don't know God, you don't know me and He does not know you, nor do I. I accept that there will be those who reject God and His children, for His Word says, "You will be hated on account of My Name", for those who are friends with the world do not belong to God and are hostile toward God and His children! God rejoices in we who are His. He does not rejoice in iniquity (sin) and is the righteous Judge. For you to feel entitled to heaven without Christ and accept another way (fire) is to love lies and the father of lies!

This contrary gospel that you preach and teach is from the pit of hell, straight from the Anit-Christ! I pray you will see that you are following the false prophet and propagating his message, and with him, you will be cast into the Lake of Fire, if you do not repent!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

My own words are these? "It is the judgement that causes all to have faith in the blood and trust in Jesus as their God . The fire is a symbol for the judgement that leads people to Christ not the diety that we should have faith in" That is NOT what I said! When God's judgments are on the earth, the chosen ones will repent and come to Jesus. This is not the lake of fire I'm talking about, so don't twist my message around to suit yours.

If you believe people are saved after death through fire, you are saying what you now claim was sarcasm. I did not misunderstand you; you deceive yourself! YOU DO BELIEVE PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED AFTER DEATH THROUGH FIRE (SPIRITUAL OR OTHERWISE), DON'T YOU? If so, that fully CONTRADICTS the Bible!


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Repent huh! Put my trust in your god who cant accomplish his will ? Put my trust in a god who loses to his enemy ? That is what your saying that Jesus does not actually crush satans head he actually loses dramatically. Are you not saying this ? Say this to me ! I feel Satan wins more people to be burnt in a literal fire of an unscriptural word called hell forever than Jesus Christ will get to repent ! This is indeed what you believe is it not ? and I am the one who is blaspheming ? Your beliefs say Satan is more powerful than God. The god you worship sounds more like Tony Soprano than a God Of love whos mercy endures forever. Love me or burn in fire for ever. it would take so long to go through all your answers they are convoluted and you love to misquote me. You quote scriptures out of their proper place because you apply things to the first resurrection that have nothing to with salvation. you have no clue what you are saying . none not a single clue what the gospel is about. The Gospel is Good news. Your gospel is the sickest thing I ever heard in my entire life. You twist my statements that God is going to judge the world to me saying theres another way besides Christ. I have never said that and you continue to make this claim. The penalty for sins is death not burning in "hell" for ever. You contradict everytime you think you have a verse that says God will punish the world forever. You are as deceived as they come. The contrast between the narrow road and wide road is the many called and few chosen. Your beliefs are very wide so believe me you have not found anything narrow but deceit. God is Love and will have all men to be saved. Gods will is always done!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I've respectfully and carefully read everything you've written. If you don't have the same respect, you are missing out on the truth! Why do you think I'm conversing with you? Just to contend? No; my motive is love and the hope of your salvation (and those like you who are reading). Believe me; this has taken up my entire day. I can certainly do things that are more fun!

Crushing Satan's head is to send him to hell. Notice that the beast (the Dragon) that comes up out of the "peoples, nations tribes and tonges" has seven heads, which are seven kingdoms! Cross-reference the "Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" and you will find that "dragon" correlates with Leviathan. God said He would "crush the heads (kingdoms) of Leviathan"!! This would be Satan's kingdoms of PEOPLES of the WORLD.

Please put a mirror up to your own words (for Satan is guilty, but projects his guilt upon God's children): "You quote scriptures out of their proper place because you apply things to the first resurrection that have nothing to with salvation. you have no clue what you are saying . none not a single clue what the gospel is about." This applies to YOU.

You said, "The penalty for sins is death not burning in "hell" for ever." I say, Jesus paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross (for He alone is worthy), and without Him we have to face the penalty for our sin, of which our own death cannot atone. Everyone dies, and thus our sins are paid for? NO! If they were, none of us would have needed Jesus to die for us! Rejecting this payment for our sin brings on the penalty of sin ~ eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire! That's God's Word, not mine!


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

You said, "The penalty for sins is death not burning in "hell" for ever." I say, Jesus paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross (for He alone is worthy), and without Him we have to face the penalty for our sin, of which our own death cannot atone. Everyone dies, and thus our sins are paid for? NO! If they were, none of us would have needed Jesus to die for us! Rejecting this payment for our sin brings on the penalty of sin ~ eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire! That's God's Word, not mine!

Carrie look at the complete contradiction in your own words.

you- I say, Jesus paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross (for He alone is worthy),

you- Rejecting this payment for our sin brings on the penalty of sin ~ eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire!

me- You just said Jesus paid the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross . this is what the penalty for sins is death. hence Jesus died for our sins. Than you turn around and say that the penalty for our sins is burning in hell forever. When did Jesus burn in hell forever to pay for the sins of the world ? The penalty is death and he paid the penaly by dying not burning in hell forever.

Listen this is not going anywhere. I live about an hour away from you in upstate New York ( dutchess county) . If you want I will travel and talk about the Bible perhaps in a barnes and noble cause this is fun conversing but i never had an online discussion before and its real annoying and difficult to follow . I wish you would take it down cause it nots profitable to anyone to be honest. Sincerly I would come down to manhattan if you wanted to talk about this . Im 30 years old and feel im totally harmless so if you want to get together and talk scripture id like that but if not i got to repent of internet debates.

Thanks, Matt


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi Matt ~ My name is Adelia :-) This hub handle is fictitious. My name is not Carrie, nor do I live in the New York area. If you want my story, please read my hub "Carrie Bradshaw: Transfer to New Profiles". Otherwise, I would certainly meet in person with you ~ BECAUSE I CARE.

What I said makes sense, unless you don't understand or know that there are TWO DEATHS. The first death (flesh) came to us because of SIN. This is why Adam and Eve didn't live forever, but physical death entered the world. The SECOND DEATH, is the Lake of Fire. Jesus is not condemned to the second death as we are (or in my case, WAS). His death, which is His physical death, PAID the price for all sin (because He had no sin and was not deserving of death). IF we RECEIVE His sacrifice into our hearts, we also will only DIE ONCE. Over these (believers) the SECOND DEATH has no power. The SECOND DEATH is the Lake of Fire. Those without Jesus Christ will be cast into it. The Word says we are raised INCORRUPTIBLE, so we will not physically DIE again (saved or not). We will live in eternal LIFE or eternal DEATH. For more on the second death, please read Revelation 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14 and Rev 21:8.

God's Word (the proper interpretation of truth) will NEVER RETURN VOID, so this has not been unprofitable, Praise God!


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Me- The first part of your thread really needs to be focussed on a bit more. It is a very empty argument. Telling me I am using an operation of Satan is a tool of the devil because I end my scriptural quotes is unreasonable. Satan ended his quote because he was not tempting Jesus with anything other than what he quoted . Jesus did not even bring up the next verse in Psalm 91. he went to Deut 6 and he also only quoted one verse. I do not think you would say Jesus used an operation of Satan would you ? The Aposltes proof texted the Bible all the time Acts 1:20 is a proof text of Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8. Why dont you call them Satan ? Every time they quote the Old Testament they take the verse they quote out of its original context and apply it to a different circumstance . They take the truth of the verse they do not care about the context. Something that is true is always true thats why I stopped at Col 1 :20 when I quoted verses 16-20. You keep stating that I believe that Jesus is not the only way because I believe people are led to him through a later judgement . All things were made through him verse 16 and all things will return to him verse 20. I did not quote verses 21-23 because Paul is speaking about how they were once off and now brought back . So just like the apostles I just quoted verse 20 because the truth of verses 21-23 do not make verse 20 untrue. He will gather all things in the universe back to himself like verse 20 says. This is going to take a very soar punishment . Because he goes on to say that we became believers now in verse 21-23 does not make verse 20 untrue.

You - JOHN 5:24 JUDGEMENT IS DEATH NOT LIFE .

Me - We are currently willingly dying a spiritual death to ourselves now so we can inherit life. The wicked are not so they will die a second death in the lake of fire and when it is over they as well will inherit life.

You - John 12:47-48

Me - However far you are from the standard of God who is the word the worse off your judgement is going to be hence this word will judge him. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God. So the farther you are from the image of the word the worse your punishment will be.

You - Jesus death does apply to the goats.

Me - This is not true. It says I lay down my life for the sheep , Not only the sheep. 1 John 2:2. 2 Cor 5:14,15. This is elementary.

Me - The judgement we receive is from a loving father out of discipline this we agree on. The judgement of the wicked is done out of wrath but there both still judgement . We judge ourselves willingly and receive mercy the WICKED are judged with wrath unwillingly. Both Judgements weather willingly or unwillingly are still discipline from a loving father. When we are judged we are chastened(disciplined, taught, trained). So we will not be condemned to the white throne lake of fire judgement . But when they are judged they are chastened(disciplined,trained,taught) of the Lord. That what grace is it chastens us to deny ungodliness. Titus 2:11-12. We learn in this present world and receive mercy for our obedience the wicked do not and receive wrath for their hardness but these principles are still true Judgement is chastening to teach learn and train. (John 3:18) As far as them being condemned they are indeed condemned to this later great white throne lake of fire judgement. One is from a loving Father out of mercy the other is still from a loving Father out of his wrath. 1Ptr 4:12, 17 are saying the same things we have been discussing here judgement begins at the house of God willingly and we obtain mercy and the end of them not obey not is a judgement out of wrath from a loving Father who is angry. He dosent stop being love or stop loving his children because he is angry. Jesus died for us when we were enemies. He prayed for the forgiveness of those who killed him. He told us that all his words were His Fathers words . Do you think Jesus prayed in vain ? These are his Fathers words. Forgive them they DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING . Romans 11 talks about all this. They were not given understanding they were blinded so Jesus could take the message to the Gentiles . It is by grace we are saved not of ourselves it is a gift hence they do not know what they are doing.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What do you think that God intended the whole entire world at this time to be lost for ever ? He went to Israel to confirm the promises made to the fathers(Rom 15:8) but God appointed the Jews to be blinded 1 Peter 2:6-8 so he could take the Gospel to the world. He is going to save the whole world.

I am aware that many people who believe in the Salvation of all have a lot of different beliefs so stero typing me into a catergory of someone with a cavalier attitude at the mark of the high calling is far from truth. man will give account of every deed done in this flesh. I am truly blessed and pray he counts me worthy of that precious and holy First resurrection.

You - Rev 19:20-21 . The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at the beginning of the millenium but Satan is bound. Satan does not go into the lake of fire until the end of the millenium. This is why all begins to be subdued back to Christ and we can judge the world. when this is complete Satan will be loosed and gather his wickedness and circle the saints all humanity will have been brought under by than and than oh I love this part. Dont you know that we shall shall judge angels ? When you say everyone is killed you have to think about that spiritually . Its the 2nd death remember. You even said judgement equals death not life. These people begin to die their spiritual death to themselves in the lake of fire. Dont you know the saints shall judge the world ? Your comment that the rest will not be raised after the millenium is not true it is all the same day . Sheep or goats. Rev 20:5 is spurious. http://www.bibletoday.com/archive/just&unjust.htm

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2006_mckenz...

Some even suppose rest of the dead lived not again means the spiritually dead lived not again till they received life when all is subdued. I think it is spurious. Those are 2 great articles definately worth your time.

Romans 11/ Ezek 16 & 37

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Some Jews accept Christ.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Some Jews accept Christ the rest are blinded. Physical Israel is not going to obtain that which it seeks for . ( The millenium Kingdom) .

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

God has blinded the unbelieving Jews who will not obtain to that kingdom but do not forget God still had a remnant of Jews that do accept Christ in their life.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Have the believing Jews stumbled ? No this verse is talking about unbelieving Jews. Have the unbeleiving Jews stumbled that they should fall ? No, They havent.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Now if the fall of the unbelieving Jews rejecting Christ enables the Gospel to go to the whole world How much more their fullness ? Wow this almost sounds like he is going to ta


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Okay, I'm NOT going to go line by line, but rather address in summary all that you are perceiving by these scriptures in error:

When you say something that causes a false doctrinal belief because you neglect the rest of the context, therefore making it contradictory, it is a tool of Satan. Jesus and the Apostles NEVER contradicted themselves. That is the point!

You said, “All things were made through him verse 16 and all things will return to him verse 20. I did not quote verses 21-23 because Paul is speaking about how they were once off and now brought back .” All things will stand before Christ in Judgment. The sheep and the wheat will go to the right into eternal life; the goats and the tares will depart to the left into the eternal Lake of Fire reserved for the devil and his angels. How are the Jews who were cut off reconciled to God? Only through accepting Christ as their Savior and Lord thus His acceptance of them. It is not through judgment of the Lake of Fire.

Regarding 1 John 2:2, why not go on to at least verse 4? “The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;” This again contradicts your false teaching based on one verse, neglecting the rest. You type the reference 2 Cor 5:14-25, but why not go on to verse 20? “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” WE BEG YOU? To do what? If man has no free will to repent in order to be reconciled to God (reconciled is to pay a debt), this would be a very strange statement!!!

We’ve been over the different kinds of judgment and condemnation and the difference between it and discipline. You simply refuse to accept the truth.

Who killed Jesus? THE JEWS! He prayed on their behalf! There was no charge brought against Him but blasphemy by the Jews. That’s why the sign over His head said, “King of the Jews”. The Jews are the chosen ones. Jesus came to save the “lost sheep of Israel”. Because of their rejection of the Messiah, the Gentiles were grafted in with HOPES that the Jews would come to repentance. 2/3 of the Jews are cut off from the tree of life. We as Gentiles are grafted in through acceptance of the Savior, the Messiah. The Jews that were cut off can still be grafted in again WHEN they repent!

The saints who stand before God have an advocate and are acquitted of all sin because of Christ. He stands in our place. We will be rewarded, not punished, for the works the Lord did through us (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:1; 1 Cor 3:8 & 14; Heb 10:35; 1 John 2:1; 2 John 1:8) . The only ones whose “end is according to their deeds” are the children of Satan. Not the children of God (2 Cor 11:15; 1 Peter 4:4-5).

Regarding the battle of Gog and Magog (after Satan is released at the end of the millennial reign), everyone is killed PRIOR to the Judgment Seat of Christ and the second death (Lake of Fire). So, you think that believers and unbelievers are all resurrected at the same time, eh? I will quote for you here Revelation 20:4-5 “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” The Judgment Seat of Christ happens after this. There is no judgment seat after the Lake of Fire, for that is the final judgment and destination for unbelievers. Read Revelation all of Revelation 20. Chapter 21 is the New Heaven and New Earth from then on. This is where the saints will dwell with God.

Now, I am really not going to let you keep repeating your false doctrinal poison here. I've given you enough truth, which contradicts your doctrine for you to grow on. If you can make a point that has not already been addressed I will consider continuing "casting pearls". If your heart is hardened, you are not ready to receive the truth. Be warned, if it's not already too late, of what 2 Thes 2:10-12 says! "because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Righteousness ONLY COMES THROUGH ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR! If you don't believe this truth, you are believing a LIE and are taking pleasure in UNrighteousness! AMEN, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!


galatians22067@yahoo.com  6 years ago

I dont know why you did not post my whole letter ?

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You- The sheep and the wheat will go to the right into eternal life; the goats and the tares will depart to the left into the eternal Lake of Fire reserved for the devil and his angels.

Me- Eternal ? You want to have a discussion about aionios ? I will smash your evil idol of the heart to shreds by you saying this word has anything to do with eternity. Matt 25:46 says nothing about the time of the life of the sheep or the judgement of the goats. Its a contrast between the quality of life in the next age.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Me - I have yet to see a scripture that God is evil ? Do you have one ? Gods is Love so all of his judgements stem from the fact that he is love. He never stops being love because he is angry with his disobedient children. Yes currently they yield themselves to their father the devil but when God judges them they become his. All is returned back to Christ.

Read Romans 1: 28-32. Being unmerciful is a character trait of someone who is a hater of God and an inventor of an evil thing. All through the Bible we read His mercy endures His mercy endures and you trample this under your feet and accuse God of being unmerciful . Where in the scriptures does it say such evil things about God, That God has character traits like these back biters that hate him UNMERCIFUL !! You fit right into this category and put God in their with you. Dont you see it ?

Rom 3:3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful?

Well what if some did not believe shall we burn them in hell for ever ? God forbid ! God will remain faithful.

Rom 3:4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried."

God is true and faithful you are an evil unmerciful liar ! Do you have a scripture that says God is unmerciful ?

Rom 3:5 But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? Can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (This would be the natural question to ask.)

Rom 3:6 By no means! If God is not just, how can he judge the world?

Rom 3:7 But what if my untruth serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner?

This question is the same question you continue to deny. If my unbelief commends Gods righteousness than why am I still going to be judged ? Because God is just and He must judge evil ! So if I dont believe God will remain faithful. YES! GOD IS TRUE AND YOU ARE A LIAR But your judgement is just! None of this can be true if they really burn in "hell" forever.

Rom 3:8 Why not say, then, "Let us do evil so that good may come"? Some people, indeed, have insulted me by accusing me of saying this very thing! They will be condemned, as they should be.

Should I go on sinning since God is faithful and going to save me anyway ? God forbid if that is your attitude than your punishment is just. Turning Gods grace into lasciouvness is one of the worst crimes in the Bible. If what your saying is true about burning in "hell" for ever than you can not possibly take advantage of Gods grace. Because where sin abounds grace abounds the more and the only way to take advantage of this is to take advantage of the fact that God is good and faithful. You cannot take advantage of Gods grace and him being faithful if he is really going to burn you in hell forever . You arguments make no sense! They are totally illogogical and blaspheme Gods character and these scriptures. How is it possible to take advantage of Grace if you burn in hell for ever for it. Its a total contradiction. You can only take advantage of grace because he is faithful.

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You - How are the Jews who were cut off reconciled to God? Only through accepting Christ as their Savior and Lord thus His acceptance of them. It is not through judgment of the Lake of Fire.

Me -This is totally contrary to the teachings of Rom 11/Ezek 16&37.

There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Thats it one or the other. The just or the unjust. We know the Jews are not going to obtain to that which it seeks for (the first just resurrection) and they are still all going to be saved . They are raised in the judgement of the unjust and are punished for their sins and they have their blindless removed and are saved. The lake of fire judgement is what brings them to their saviour . I do not think you have any idea what the judgement of the lake of fire in the earth is like. Its like the torment Joseph gave his brothers to get them to repent. Its not a literal fire. You read Rev 14:10 and verses like it with such carnality and hate you see right past the spiritual glorious understanding of the examples the Bible gives us on what torment is. You bring God down to your hate filled level instead of looking at these verses from the perspective of a God of Love. Josephs brothers were tormented in the presence of Joseph . Why ? To cause them extreme physical pain for all eternity ? No that is sick and evil . God meant it all TO SAVE MUCH PEOPLE ALIVE !!!!!

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Me - Continuing reading 1 John or 2Cor 5 does not prove that Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world. I mean if this were true than what are you asking an unbeliever to believe and what is an unbeliever guilty of ? That Christ did not die for his sins. Wow you blaspheme Christs atonement. What do you ask the goats to believe in ? You want a goat to believe in the fact that Jesus Christ did not die for his sins. Wow that makes no sense!!! Your agruments are so blasphemous and illogical and unscriptural its sick. Your on that wide road that leads to destruction because these beliefs are so common you think there correct. You have not found anything narrow. Just wide spread orthodox deceit.

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Me- He died for our offences and rose for our justification. Every man will be justified in his own order . 1 Cor 15:22-28 Romans 5:15-21.

Me- You asking me to go on with the rest of 2 Cor 5 . I beg you to, be reconciled to God. Why stop there Satan?

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. The grace of God appeared to all men but most receive it in vain few live Godly and receive mercy for their obedience the rest are judged with strict wrath from a Loving God. AGAIN DO YOU HAVE A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD IS NOT LOVE AND IS UNMERCIFUL ?????

Me- Do not take advantage of Gods grace be reconciled to God. Do not take advantage of what ? That God is going to burn you in Hell. How can you take advantage of that ? Do not take advantage of Gods faithfulness to you because than you face a much stircter soarer punishemnt and its not burning in "hell" for ever. BE RECONCILED so you do not face this judgement. You make no sense.

Me- Rev 20:5 is spurious. Read the 2 articles.

Me- Again I agree with Rom 8:1 of course. Our judgement is not condemnation its from a loving God out of mercy but the judgement of the wicked is condemnation to Gods wrath but he never stops being love, Again do you have a scripture that God stops being love. Repent and believe God Is Love! Of course Gods love is poison to you you are filled with hate towards sinners and you . Look at what you believe. You believe that God desires all men to be saved but he wont get what he wants because satan actually takes the vast majority of his creation to "hell" to be burnt with fire for ever. You are saying that Gods desire is grosly hindered by satan and satan is stronger than god. Take a good look at what you believe and repent !


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

First of all, HubPages has a limit on how much text can be contained in a comment. If you exceed that text, THEY cut you off, NOT ME.

Sure, I'll have a discussion about eternal! There's no discussion when you KNOW the truth!

If you look up the actual Greek definitions of everlasting and eternal:

According to scripture, souls live eternally. They are either eternally in life or eternally condemned.

Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.

The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.

Both heaven and hell is everlasting, neverending, without end. Our souls will dwell in one place or the other after physical death and bodily resurrection. Amen.

You said God is only love? Well now, let's look at some passages that would state otherwise:

Proverbs 3:34 "Though He scoffs at the scoffers, Yet He gives grace to the afflicted."

Romans 9:13 “Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’”

Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."

Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Revelation 2:6 [God to the church in Ephesus] “Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”

You referenced Romans 1:28-32; Why not start in verse 26? If you read this chapter in context, it is speaking of the sin of practicing homosexuality. Did you notice that "God gave them over to a depraved mind?" Just like He sends a delusion to the wicked so that they believe a LIE! Why? To seal their fate of damnation!

Does God ALWAYS show mercy? NO! James 2:13 "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy" Merciless?

How about when God Himself tells His own people to "show them NO mercy"? Deut 7:2 "When the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

You quote Roman 3:7 like it's a fact ~ rather, it is the attitude of the damned! You ANSWERED your OWN question in verse 8! "Why not say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved." Thier CONDEMNATION IS DESERVED!

You are INCREDIBLY CONFUSED when you quote "Should I go on sinning since God is faithful and going to save me anyway ? God forbid if that is your attitude than your punishment is just. Turning Gods grace into lasciouvness [sexual freedom] is one of the worst crimes in the Bible." Then you go on to say we should "take advantage" of God's grace as we go on sinning? And I quote you: "You cannot take advantage of Gods grace and him being faithful if he is really going to burn you in hell forever." What did Romans 1:8 state again? "Why not say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved." Thier CONDEMNATION IS DESERVED!

You are repeating your twisted lies about the Jews. Those who are cut off are cut off, unless they repent and are reconciled as the Gentiles. The tribulation of the Jews is on earth during the "time of Jacob's Trouble"; it is NOT through the Lake of Fire. Just as everyone else, there will indeed be a resurrection of the just (first) then the unjust (after the millennial reign). I'm not going to waste any more time with you on this. The Lake of Fire is permanent, not temporary. It is after the Tribulation, after the millennial reign; it is the FINAL JUDGMENT for the UNJUST. We are only justified through Christ when we accept Him. It is not an entitlement! "Your condemnation is deserved!"

Joseph's brothers were tormented in his presence? LOL What are you talking about? He toyed with them. He never tormented them!! I can't believe where you get this stuff! I'm going to try to finish tolerating your anit-Christ garbage, but will not take ANY MORE of your demonic doctrine here after this. YOU ARE DECEIVED ~ AS LOST AS LOST CAN BE!

While Jesus gave the propitiation for the sins of the entire world, that sacrifice is made NULL and VOID when people reject His sacrifice! Let me give you an example of the Jews who do not accept Jesus as thier Messiah and cling to the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses:

Galatians 2:21 "I do not NULLIFY the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Do you see? If they choose to follow the Law, they NULLIFY the GRACE OF GOD that came through Jesus Christ! It will NOT apply to them!! This is also what 1 Cor 6:1 means in receiving God's grace IN VAIN. To reject the truth and follow lies. Why do you think Jesus said in Mat 15:9 and Mark 7:7 "In VAIN do they [Jews] worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men?"

Speaking of narrow and wide? The whole world being saved is a "wide" doctrine of destruction, for I do not embrace that LIE, meaning FEW will be saved, as Jesus said! That is the NARROW road.

God loved his enemies (the world) so much that He gave them the opportunity to be reconciled to Him through FREE WILL. The same God will damn His enemies that are not reconciled by choice to HELL for all eternity. Likewise, I have loved you enought to tell you the truth, but like God, I HATE your doctrine of demons and God does, too! It is LIE, for all who WAIT until AFTER death because of your doctrine DO NOT HAVE A SECOND CHANCE! It is FINISHED!


Seekeroftruth 6 years ago

Greetings,

Just wondering, it seems that I read that all Irasel will be saved.. Seems I remember it being Paul said might have been someone else, but seems I do remember reading that.. in your study of the scriptures does it seems that way to you too ?? That is to say that all Irasel will be saved ?? thanks


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Seekeroftruth, Isaiah 59:20 states, "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,' declares the LORD." Keep in mind that Jacob was re-named Israel. Also keep in mind Malachi 1:2-3/Romans 9:13 "Jacob I loved; Esau I hated". The Great Tribulation to come is also known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jer 30:7), for it is God's desire that His first-born nation of Israel repent (Ex 4:22).

In Romans 11:17-26 we see the parable of how the branches of the “wild olive tree” (Gentiles) are grafted into the “cultivated olive tree” (Israel-Jews). It’s very interesting to note here that though some of Israel‘s cultivated olive branches were broken off (because they rejected Jesus Christ and his message of salvation), they can be grafted in again to that tree (upon acceptance of Jesus Christ and salvation through Him).

Romans 11:26 sums up the passage above with "And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, 'The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.'" (Cross-referenced with Isaiah 59:20)

In a nutshell, imagine Israel are the elect of God, A TREE. Whoever is part of that tree, which comes from Jacob (Jesus is the offspring of his son Judah) will be saved (those who receive Christ as Savior). Anyone who is not a part of that tree is not. I have a hub on Judah's Daughter called "The Elect of God" I recommend you read. Be blessed.


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

Yeah that's the way I read it too.. that Israel is blinded for a specific purpose and time ,but God will save all Israel per Romans 11:26.. Can't argue with that straighforward statment that God wrote. He will turn them from their ways yet.. stubborn bunch aren't they ??? But our God can and will deal with stubborn people.. Being and seeing how God is the one and only ultimate parent, he's had lots of practice and can most certainly bring this thing to pass..

thanks for your reply, I'm gonna check out your other hub you suggested.. and thanks again..


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

seekeroftruth, What we must understand is that TREE is also known as Israel (the elect of God), which includes only those (Jews and Gentiles) that have received salvation through Jesus Christ. Every branch (including Israelis) that has rejected and will reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah has been and will be cut off. However, those living still have the choice to receive Christ and be grafted back into that TREE. You will understand more when you read that hub I recommended. God bless you.


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Seems like God has it under control.. he will turn Jacob, not Jacob will turn themselves.. Remember these are God's words, best not to add or subtract from them.. God said he will deliver Jacob, not that Jacob will deliver themselves.. God is the deliverer, it is not we.. and so all Israel will indeed be saved for God has spoken it.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Seekeroftruth, you wish only to use one verse and ignore the others? Isaiah 59:20 states, "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,' declares the LORD."

The word "all" as in 'all Israel' is the Greek word 'pas', which is also used in John 3:16 meaning 'whosoever', followed by the criteria "believeth on Him".

Do not be deceived.


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

Be not decieved.. Shorten not the arm of the Lord , nor pervert his justice... ever read anything along those lines ?? and what about those scribes who would pervert Gods word?? Read about that by any chance?? Got a mirror handy ?? Why is it you say God cannot do that which he said he would ??? Word play ??? Does temproray blindness mean something else other than temporary ?? Has God's arm been shortend that he cannot save ?? well ?? Do you run life or does life run you ??? who's in charge ?? Who clothed Adam in the garden ?? Is God a respector of persons??? Will he not cloth all his childer even as Adam ??? Has God's arm been shortend, seems you've cut his arm clean off.. The scripture says all Irasel will be saved.. Since when does all mean some ?? Could God not have said some ?? Or is he trying to trick us ?? God said all.. why change ye the scriptures ??


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

seekeroftruth, are you Jewish? Are you of the tribes of Jacob? Do you claim to be saved? Are you a Gentile? How do Gentiles get grafted into the tree of Israel? Were any branches of Israel cut off?

What did Paul (from the tribe of Benjamin) tell the Jewish people in Acts 18:6: "But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, 'Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.'" Why is their blood on their own heads, if they have no free will? Who rejected the gospel? Did they willfully do this? Yes!!

God says He will separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, there is eternal life and eternal damnation. Who is perverting God's Word? The spirit affecting you, sir. You base the word ALL on the English language. If I say "all MY pillows, it does not mean ALL PILLOWS".

What did Jesus say in John 17:9? "My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given Me, because they belong to You." Hey, what happened to the whole world?

And if God so loved the world, why does James 4:4 state, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

Read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "Hated on Account of My Name". Open your eyes, man!!


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

What did Jesus say in John 17:9? "My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given Me, because they belong to You." Hey, what happened to the whole world?

ever read the prayer which Jesus taught us to pray ?? Did God say he would answer a prayer that was according to his will ?? Did Jesus then pray according to The Father's will when he taught us to pray Our Father who are in heaven , hallowed be thy name, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ?? What is Gods will then ??? How shall you pervert this prayer?? are you against the will of God or for the will of God ?? And by the way, none of those who belive in the salvation of all deny judgement, we all declare that judgements will be passed out no doubt, but they will be fair judgements, righteous judgements, in perfect accord with the old testament laws.. What is so hard to understand here Carrie ?? Is God's judgements fair or not ?? Why do you insist on perverting God's judgements?? Again God will judge and only a few will indeed be counted worthy to rule and reign, most are gonna be outside the gates making right their wrongs.. Therein you have the righteous judgements of a Holy God.. It's his very holiness which would prevent him from doiing the thing of which you accuse him of. .Have ye not read the book of Jerimiah where God absolutely many time sepereated himself from such a destable practice as burning people in a physical fire ?? Or is God a liar ?? I do hope you give this some thought.. God's justice is Fair!! You have perverted it !!! He is Holy !! You have made him to be a monster !! Thanks be To God that My God will destroy your god.. shelah !!! Oh yee hard of heart !!What's that I hear ?? is that the sound of a sick to his stomach God ?? Soon those who speak evil of him shall be made an example of .. and what more evil thing could one say than what you say about the justice of a Holy God. You think about what your teaching here carrie, you are perverting the Justice of God.. Shame on you !!! Again there will be justice, just not in the way you teach it to be so.. That is not justice, that is the doctrine of devils and demons which Paul warned timothy would be the mark of the false church..


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Seekeroftruth,

You said, "Did Jesus then pray according to The Father's will when he taught us to pray Our Father who are in heaven , hallowed be thy name, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven??"

Answer: First of all, is God your Father? He is not Father to the children of the devil. It takes salvation for us to even pray to the Father. John 9:31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him."

You said, "And by the way, none of those who belive in the salvation of all deny judgement, we all declare that judgements will be passed out no doubt, but they will be fair judgements, righteous judgements, in perfect accord with the old testament laws."

Answer: Why would God judge according to the Old Testament Laws, when they were fulfilled and accomplished through the shed blood of the Lamb, whereby we live according to the New Covenant? Galatians 2:21 "I do not NULLIFY the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Without Christ, you will be judged according to that Law, the Law no one can keep ~ it's also known as the "law of sin and death". Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

The wicked will be judged according to their deeds; yet, there is no judgment for those who are in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor 11:14-15 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

You said, "Have ye not read the book of Jerimiah where God absolutely many time sepereated himself from such a destable practice as burning people in a physical fire??"

Answer: This passage is where people were worshiping the pagan god of Molech and burned children as a sacrfice to Molech (2 Kings 23:10). Likewise, to burn in the fire as a sacrifice for our own sin is pagan!! Don't you see?

2 Peter 2:6 "He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes, making them an EXAMPLE to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them."

Jude 1:7 "Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an EXAMPLE in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

I said, "Have ye not read the book of Jerimiah where God absolutely many time sepereated himself from such a destable practice as burning people in a physical fire??"

Answer: This passage is where people were worshiping the pagan god of Molech and burned children as a sacrfice to Molech (2 Kings 23:10). Likewise, to burn in the fire as a sacrifice for our own sin is pagan!! Don't you see?

I see that you avoided the question. Did God condone burning children or not ??? yes or no .. did God say this was destable or not ?? You interpert scripture to suit yourself, be careful least that which you thought proper for others comes upon your own head.. By the way being how God's word is the living word, if you said to someone today wow, it took forever to get to town do you really mean forever.. God chose the simple things to confound the wise.. God is the Father of all Carrie, and even as earthly parents have good and bad kids, so does God.. Can you just simply realize that God is The Father of all? and don't go off on that tangent of devils kids, Gods kids, the devil created no one, he has decieved most all the earth, but he is only a temperoray spiritual father, God is Father and if you will begin to see him this way, even as Jesus commeanded us to see him ( like a little child, see him as a Father first and foremost ) then you can undeerstand.. until then you will say "let them burn".. Please open your heart to the love of God !!! He is a perfect Father, and if even a evil parent knows how to give good things, will God be no greater than his creation ?? Shelah..


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

Likewise, to burn in the fire as a sacrifice for our own sin is pagan!! Don't you see?

I see that God said the wages of sin is death.. and since when is death life ??? did adam die ?? dont' we all die ?? How did God thru Solomon define death ??? Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever ?? I guess your gonna side with Satan here, who said death is not death... Oh that you would open your heart, that you would have the heart of the Father.. So death is life says Carrie, it that your stand ?? Did God lie or did Satan ?? Remember Carrie it's all about the lie. Same lie then, same lie now.. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Life thru Jesus Christ the Lord of all..


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

seekeroftruth, you are worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. God created all things, and just like the earth is corruptible and will be re-created without any sea, we only become new creations through adoption into God's family. Jesus called the Jews "children of the devil" and said the bad seed are the "children of the evil one". He is only Father to us when we receive His Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out "Abba, Father". It is you who are deceived. And for that I am grieved, for His Spirit in me is grieved. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Ezekiel 33:1 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'" Likewise, if all Israel is saved, as you have misinterpreted, this would contradict.

In Adam all die, but in Christ (criteria) all will be made alive. Just because every man dies, this does not atone for his sin. If it did, we would not have needed a Savior. Death is not just physical, but is the "second death" (the Lake of Fire) for those who reject Christ. All men will be raised incorruptible (no more physical death). Who will deliver you from the power of the flames? Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame". The Lake of Fire does not atone for your sin.

Jesus had to die for us; He is the atonement already made, and only those who receive His gift of salvation will be saved. Those who endure the trying of their faith until the end will be saved. Period.


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

yes my Father, even as you command, my feet do I dust here.. Thy will be done ...


seekeroftruth 6 years ago

By the way Carrie, we love you very much.. :0)... We being all Those children of the Living God who've posted on this blog.. I just wanted ya to know that we do indeed love you with the pure love of the Father.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

seekeroftruth, And, as the thief on the cross shared the truth with the other, believing in the identity of Christ as the king of the Jews, Whose kingdom is not of this world, thereby was saved, yet the other not ~ I have shared the truth in love with you. May God bring the increase. Amen.

For more on salvation, I invite you to read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "Religion versus Salvation". Jesus is the Door of the sheep (John 10:8), and He stands at the door of your heart and knocks ~ if anyone hear His voice and open the door, He will come into him and sup with him (Rev 3:20). His sheep hear His voice and they know Him (John 10:27). Open the door; that is your choice. Amen.


Mayan 6 years ago

What is the criteria for salvation? Accept Christ as Lord and Savior right?

Those who believe in 'Salvation For All' repent, confess and accept Christ. Those who believe in eternal fire-burning also repent, confess and accept Christ.

But one camp is claimed to be deceived and the other camp have their eyes opened. Right?

You claimed that those who believe in 'Salvation For All' are most definitely deceived because obviously they believe in false doctrines. But haven't they also cried out to God? Haven't they also accepted Christ and repented? What went wrong?

So accepting Christ wasn't enough? They are still deceived?

How did that happen? It'd be hard (if not impossible) to find ONE single 'Salvation For All' believer who will say they do not accept Christ.

If they stand by their doctrine and so do you, who is ultimately right? Only God knows. So is God playing a guessing game?

Accept Christ and then try guessing the right doctrines (get the wrong ones and you could burn FOREVER)? Bear in mind it's not just ONE doctrine. It's MANY doctrines all mankind have to guess right! Get one wrong and oops, time to burn (regardless of whether or not you genuinely loved and accepted Christ in your lifetime)!

Also, if you get one doctrine right and 10 wrong, then you must not have the Holy Spirit right? And it MUST be demonic influence right?

Is it really wise to judge them as deceived? Is it wise to claim that their doctrine is demonic?

Take heed: "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32).

It is dangerous to attribute the work/word of God to the devil!

Lastly, on one of your hubs (comment section) you claimed in CAPITAL LETTERS that L Ray Smith is definitely NOT SAVED! Even though Ray stated in his website that He accepted Christ, repented and confessed his sins. What happened there?

I can only infer from all this that you don't think accepting Christ alone is sufficient.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Mayan, you would be surprised to find out that Universalists do not believe anyone is saved until they "enter the kingdom of God" at the end of the age. They believe salvation comes through fire after physical death. They don't acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God Himself either. There's a lot more to their doctrine you don't realize. Where did they get these beliefs? From L. Ray Smith, who claims to be saved ~ Oh, so God saved him and he can still continue to be a false teacher? Talk about blasphemy, for he is leading multitudes to Hell, which they falsely believe will save them. That is a doctrine of demons. Who disguises themselves as apostles of Christ? OF CHRIST? 2 Cor 11:13 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ." Ponder that ~~ be blessed.


Chief Apathetic 6 years ago

Jesus also instructed his disciples not to be like the Gentiles who only seek their own vantiy. Jesus also stated one will come to the Temple saying to God, look at me I am not like those other people, and God will not hear that one.

Another will come & say to God, look at me at what a woeful person I am, (in so many words) and God will hear that one as that one is being honest with God.

God is he that knows every lie that proceeds out of the mouths of men.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Chief Apathetic, God knows the hearts of men, and out of their mouths come whatever's in their hearts: Mat 15:18-20 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man." The daily washing of hands (several times a day) was a Law of Moses ~ so, to keep the Law outwardly, while one breaks the commandments of God inwardly is what defiles the man. Salvation is of the heart, not of works (Eph 2:8-9). Amen!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

ATTENTION READERS:

FURTHER UNIVERSALIST COMMENTS WILL BE DENIED AT THIS TIME, AS I SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TIME TO RESPOND. I WILL NOTIFY IN THE FUTURE, IF I WILL BE TAKING YOUR COMMENTS. MAY GOD BLESS ALL WHO READ UNTO HIS GLORY. AMEN.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

None of your business 6 hours ago (I will post a portion of his comment, but will leave out the ad hominem):

"Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:1-2)

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. (Romans 2:1)"

ANSWER: First of all "What fellowship has Light with darkness" (2 Cor 6:14) What do I do that I judge you for? What do you do that you judge me for? We have absolutely NOTHING in common. Unbelievers are already under God's judgment and will remain there for all eternity. I'm not judging you; YOU ARE ALREADY JUDGED.

1 Cor 5:9-13 "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. FOR WHAT HAVE I TO DO WITH JUDGING OUTSIDERS? Do you not judge those who are within the church? BUT THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE GOD JUDGES. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."

And

John 12:47-48 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. HE WHO REJECTS ME AND DOES NOT RECEIVE MY SAYINGS, HAS ONE WHO JUDGES HIM; THE WORD IS SPOKE IS WHAT WILL JUDGE HIM AT THE LAST DAY."


Dana Patric Hayes 5 years ago

I am not a religious person...but I was for nearly 15 to 20years by going to a congregation during that time....turns out I was religious and just really bad at it....all I know is my eyes have been opened and my ears as well...and my soul roused from death...

thy will be done...with Christ's love I send this message....I have read much of the arguments between you and others here.....praise God that he is sovereign!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Dana, and you are just one more testimony of the drawing of the Spirit and your response in this life. God's Word is true that He will draw ALL men to Himself, WHEN He was lifted up from the earth (John 12:32)...not when man is lifted up from the earth. He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and desires that all be saved (2 Pet 3:9), yet He gives man the choice, based on what's in his heart, to serve God or serve the Adversary (Rom 6:16). Praise God He saved you and you will shine His Light into this world now and forevermore! God bless you!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

I would like to respond to charles and kewelboyz, in that you both misinterpret 1 Cor 15:21-28. Your Universalist comments will not be posted.

charles said, “christ lays althings at the fathers feet so he can be all in all.. 1 Cor. 15:21-28”

kewelboyz said, “The Father just has a specially work for them that beleives.But Christ will save all and again in his order.1cor.15:21-28. And The only why death can be distoryed even the second death is to have all be made alive in Christ” You inserted ‘Christ will save all’ and (I will correct your spelling) “The only way death can be destroyed, even the second death, is to have all be made alive in Christ.” This is your OWN interpretation. It is not stated this way in the Bible anywhere. The Lake of Fire is the second death (spiritual, rather than physical) and is purposed for the eternal destruction of evil. There is no redemption from that place.

Here’s a hub link to attempt to open your understanding of 1 Cor 15, if it’s possible: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/1-Corinthi...


BLACKANDGOLDJACK profile image

BLACKANDGOLDJACK 5 years ago from Blitzburgh area

I can’t believe I read the whole thing.

Jesus Christ!

If you do not believe and profess in His resurrection after dying on the cross for man’s (and especially woman’s wink wink) sins, you are not saved.

I will buy universal reconciliation in that Christ suffered and died for the benefit of all humanity. But not all humanity will avail themselves of the opportunity to be saved by faith, repentance, and grace.

I wish I would have said . . . His Word is truth and confirms that only those who reconcile themselves by choice to God, by accepting the gift of salvation through His blood, will be "of God" and not cast out away from Him. If He can say to those on His left "Depart from Me; I NEVER KNEW YOU", He will not know them. They will not inherit salvation based on anything outside of the Way, the Truth and the Life, by CHOIC . . . but Carrie Bradshaw said it. That’s a smokin’ hot paragraph!

Carrie Bradshaw, you hit the head on the nail so many times on this subject I got board. And bored from reading the philistines’ comments.

I think you are too nice to some of the philistines. You need to kick butt and take names. And turn the names over to AA. No not Alcoholic Anonymous, although after reading some of their comments that may be wise as well. I’m talking about giving their names to Abaddon in the Hebrew/Apollyon in the Greek. He is looking for a few good men. You know, to sting for 5 months.

Philistines, please do not respond to anything I say. If I want to read fiction, I will download it to my Kindle from Amazon.com.

I might add that it has been my experience in dealing personally with those who claim to believe in universal salvation is that they are doing something that they shouldn’t be doing. And those who preach universal salvation often are doing it mostly to gain followers they wouldn’t otherwise have.

So Carrie Bradshaw, I would be interested in how exactly you define/explain predestination. If you have done so in one of your other hubs, please direct me there.

If I become one of your followers, do I have to like tithe?


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

I can’t believe you read the whole thing either, BLACKANDGOLDJACK! Guess who? Lol

And I know, ‘Jesus Christ’ was a prayer ?

Praise God we concur!

I think you’d be perfect to kick butt and take names! How ‘bout it? I’ve got 10 more in line to start up some more, but you know what the Truth says. You might read about it in my hub “Comment Coliseum”: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Comment-Co...

Regarding your statement that “those who claim to believe in universal salvation is that they are doing something that they shouldn’t be doing. And those who preach universal salvation often are doing it mostly to gain followers they wouldn’t otherwise have”, I knew I was right about Mat 10:16.

Now, to minister to YOU ~ I have a few hubs on the subject of ‘Predestination’. I’ll give you the first of four (the other three are linked at the base of the following hub – when you see the title “The Lamb’s Book of Life”, please read that one, then the sequel, “And The Books Were Opened”):

Don’t Limit His LOVE: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Dont-Limit...

And one in regard to tithing: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Tithing--G...

Jesus paid it ALL and ALL to Him I owe ~~~ amen.


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

Carrie Bradshaw 12 months ago:

ANSWER: First of all "What fellowship has Light with darkness" (2 Cor 6:14) What do I do that I judge you for? What do you do that you judge me for? We have absolutely NOTHING in common. "Unbelievers" are already under God's judgment and will remain there for all eternity. I'm not judging you.....

Yes you are!!!! You judge anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to your warped, screwed up interpretation of the Bible!! Quit Lying...LIARS HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE :D :D :D :D :D You won't post this... COWARD that you are!!! :p :p :P :p :p :p


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

Too bad that there is no "STUPID" option on the list above....because that's what ALL of your hubs are, Ms. Sex in the city/Judah Daughter!!!


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hello, Hell NO and your tenth alter-ego...I will post your hateful mail, because you only make yourself look bad ~ especially as one who believes all will be saved...why do you worry about me? Or why do you hate me? God's Word tells me why - John 15:21 "They will treat you this way because of My name, for they do not know the One who sent Me."


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

There you go again, ASSUMING I'm someone that I'm not! You also took it upon your sanctimonious self to ASSUME that I'm not a "Believer" and that I"m judged already, by cherry-picking passages out of the Bible, as you always do! And look who's talking about HATE!! Your whole tone is hateful towards anyone who does not interpret scriptures in your warped way!!! Look at some of your earlier posts to the ones who believe in the salvation of all for proof of this!!! Your "god" HATES!! You said that yourself! You are without the biggest hypocrite that I've ever had the misfortune of stumbling across!!


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

Carrie Bradshaw 21 hours ago

why do you worry about me?

This is not about YOU, you egomaniac!! This is about calling you out on spreading your SICK, hypocritical, twisted version of the so-called "Good News" of "turn or burn"! BTW, I am NOT Hell NO, I've never even met "Hell NO", but his hubs make in-finitely more sense than this twisted, self-contradicting garbage that you spew!!! You believe that you "save" yourself by "believing"!!! One other thing...you have a lot of nerve accusing ANYONE of being a cult with followers, look at the top right hand of this page. How many "followers" do you have?! Over 300! Plus you make money from your hubs whereas someone like L.Ray Smith doesn't many any money at all from his. Now who's the cult?????


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

So I denied your duplicate hate comment, NOTacarriecultfollower (whoever you are). Frankly, the same spirit comes forth, so what's the difference? You think these readers follow me? How much of my hubs are even about me? They are written about doctrinal differences. Let the reader see this obvious antithesis and decide for themselves. By the way, no more hate mail will be posted.


#1carriespeakstheTRUTHfollower 4 years ago

Hey Carrie, it's me, BLACKANDGOLDJACK. At least I admit I suffer from MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder), unlike NOTacarriecultfollower.

I wonder if NOTacarriercultfollower (and all his other identities) realizes that he needs to repent for bearing false witness. I guess he thinks he'll be saved no matter what, so what.

Now here is what I don’t like about NOTacarriercultfollower (among other things). When I am contemplating what somebody says on one of these hubs or in the comments on a particular issue, I like to see what they have said regarding other matters. But NOTacarriecultfollower does not appear to have established any pattern of credibility (with any of his identities).

For example, those who preach universal salvation usually support abortion and homosexuality. I don’t know what NOTacarriercultfollower’s position is on those issues, and many others.

But you, Carrie, I know where you stand on many biblical issues. In my opinion you are on the mark most of the time at “rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

Now what about this grape Flavor Aid party you are having for all the carriecultfollowers?

Hey NOTacarriecultfollower, now that’s what you call a cult. And please translate any further posts of yours from idiot-speak to English. I have had considerable difficulty following your babble on (Babylon).


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Are you takin' names, BLACKANDGOLDJACK? You'll have to take a few from those with MPD ~ or maybe 'both of you' can take names of 'all of them!' lol

Speaking of MPD, I'm taking a moment to ponder the basic differences in the God of the Bible and the god of Universalism...supposedly the same God ~~~

The Bible teaches salvation is available to everyone in this life, and everyone has the choice to accept or reject it. Universalists teach salvation is only for the few in this life and everyone else will be saved in the next life; man has no choice.

The Bible teaches the gift of salvation, obtained by faith in Christ's atonement for sin (accepting the gift); Universalists teach salvation by fire in the next life, god's judgment for sin.

The Bible teaches no Lake of Fire ever for the saved; Universalists teach the Lake of Fire for most everyone.

_______________________

God Personality #1: Your sins have been atoned for. I invite you to accept Me as your LORD and Savior by faith. By this you can know that your sins are forgiven and I will remember them no more. Because you trust in Me, I will empower you to overcome the flesh and grow into My likeness. You can know you have eternal life and no one can snatch you out of My hand. Rejoice when you are persecuted, for great is your reward.

god personality #2: You have not mastered your sin and until you do, you are not yet saved. Because of this, you will experience my judgments. If you don't perfect sinlessness in this life, you will be cast into the Lake of Fire after your flesh dies to be forcefully purified of your wickedness. I keep record of everything you say and do, which will determine how long you will need to be in that place of torment.

__________________________

On the Day of resurrection:

Those who believe in God #1 are blessed to see they have eternal life and no Lake of Fire.

Those who believe in god #2 are shocked to see they have no hope of eternal life and are cast into the Lake of Fire...forever.

_______________________

I always say, the most 'hell' a saved-by-faith believer will ever see is in this life; the most 'heaven' an unsaved, waiting-to-be-saved-after-death person will ever see is in this life.


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

Carrie Bradshaw/Judah's daugher/BLACKANDGOLDJACK:

I always say, the most 'hell' a saved-by-faith believer will ever see is in this life; the most 'heaven' an unsaved, waiting-to-be-saved-after-death person will ever see is in this life.

Yes, YOU say this, not the Bible. Like you twist everything else to suit your warped beliefs!


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well now, NOTacarriecultfollower ~ you certainly didn't deny god #2 of Universalism's 'gospel' message. Case in point. Yes, I paraphrased Bible truth and not bibletruth.com. I don't think any Bible-believing Christian would disagree, frankly.

My purpose here is to expose and minister to those caught up in the demonic doctrine of Universalism. Those who want to fall in love with God #1 may very well come to the knowledge of the Truth and accept the true gospel, the good news! I pray you also will consider that God can save you and will save you, if you'll only trust in what He's done for you already and believe what He says. John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name".


Hell N0 4 years ago

Wow Carrie, again, not your real name. You are a piece of work. It's hell-arias that you thought notacarriecultfollower was me. Babe, my style is undeniable. There is no satire in how he exposes your your false doctrine and I can't even see most of what he posts because you delete it. And what a great point. It is you that is making money off of readers or followers. Not Ray. Good luck with your money making endeavor off of your numerous fans. Ya'll desearve each other.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi there, Hell NO, aka Learning Truth, Carrie Cake Cutter (yours truly), Get Bent (Sir Dent), No Clue (Nobody), Just Passing Gas (Just Pssing Thru), Church Lady, church god, Afro's Abortion (Afro's Mistake), Skeptic Man, Bringer_of_Light, AKA Cigerettes (AKA Winston), Carrie Pie ho. . . .I mean Carrie Cake Cutter (yours truly), Emmy, Doctor Hellspit ~ I write hubs and so do you; amen? I've posted all of the latest comments from your buddy, so if you want to read more hate mail, that's not what this hub is here for. At least I don't pretend to be other people commenting on my own hubs, speaking of satire...you did actually represent me quite well, by the way. Have a blessed day :-)


Hell N0 4 years ago

Yes I did represent you quite well (refer to "It's

Time to Play Are You Smarter Than a Heller") By the way, I am definately not Emmy nor am I Bringer_of_Light. What I have done as far as satire does not take one iota of truth away from my serious articles where I completely destroy the notion that your god will roast people eternally. Simply put, your belief system is only a temporary state for you and your supporters. Now that's some really "Good News".


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Sorry, Hell NO, but god #2 is not my God.


Pat.Mokgoko@gmail.com 4 years ago

Hi Carrie, if some people are going to burn in hell fire for ever, will that not make Psalm 103:8-9 untrue? It says that God will not be angry forever.I am trying to keep it short so that we can follow each other. I am a Christian Universalist.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi Pat.Mokgoko ~ once again, the Bible must interpret itself, so I'll keep this short as well: cross-reference Ps 103:8-9 with Micah 7:18 - "Who is a God like You, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the REMNANT of His inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy."


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

"Carrie", it's clear from your writings on these hubs that the ONLY reason you follow Christ is so you won't be roasted like a marshmallow for all "eternity". Deny it all you want, denying it doesn't make it any less true.


NOTacarriecultfollower 4 years ago

I read this somewhere: Many Christians "believe" in Christ just so they can live forever. They do just enough to "get by." Their heart really isn't into doing His Will, and they obey only those parts of scripture which aren't too inconvenient for them. And after they die, they think, "Well, if there is a God, I'll have eternity. And if not, at least I lived my life according to the way I wanted to live it." In other words, they believe in God for purely selfish reasons (to be immortal).

After reading these hubs and some of the comments by the concurring "followers", the above paragraph definitely makes sense!


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

NOTaGodfollower ~ let's look at the definition of 'believe' from the Greek 4100 pisteú? (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíth?, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteú? ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

It's obvious you only know of the self-serving type of belief and haven't yet experienced the God-serving type of belief. Any so-called 'Christian' that "believes" with the attitude you described is only a 'professing' one, not a 'confessing' one. They are false.

Observe James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

Actually, I'm not so sure you DO believe there is one God? Who is Jesus to you? What is it about Jesus you 'believe'?


Hell N0 4 years ago

So now you consider yourself God? You just referred to notacarriecultfollower as NotaGodfollower. You remind me of when that Demon in Ghost Busters asked "are you a god?" I guess you would have answered with yes.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

There you go twisting what I write, once again, with your accusatory, carnal abilities, Hell NO. Make fun all you want ~ considering what you believe about how much time you'll spend in the Lake of Fire, do you think this gets you more or less time there?

No one should follow me, so I could care less whether you or NOTacarriecultfollower follow me - you guys are used to following a person, rather than the One True God Himself, so I can understand why you don't understand. Better yet, I believe you personally DO understand what you're doing, but you choose to mock because its one your spiritual gifts. This gift is nothing more than entertainment.

I could get into doctrine about Ps 82:6 and John 10:34, but if you can't receive the gospel, you won't be able to receive the things of God.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

I have a thought about what 'NotaGODfollower' had to say earlier ~ about the motive for believing being that of NOT wanting to go to Hell, rather than the 'right' reason. It would rather seem that if anyone is following 'God' out of fear of Hell, it would be Universalists. You guys believe you're going there for a period of time and that by what you do or don't do, your time there will be determined. People often accuse others of what it is they're guilty of, as does their 'father'. When people do this, it's very revealing.


Hell N0 4 years ago

when people live their lives out of fear for some eternal hell fire hole that does not exist, they are as phony as a three dollar bill. They might as well keep their mouths shut because every word is motivated by fear. I don't worry about time in the Lake of Fire nor its severity because I doubt it would be as excruciating for me as for someone teaching the lies of eternal hell. I'm exactly where God wants me right now, etertainer and all. It is by the grace of God that I know the lies of the churches flooding the land. Universal salvation is the only outcome that justifies the temporary blindness of the evil teachings and acts of this world. The scriptures harmonize in light of universal salvation. Everything has a purpose for a time: War, famine, spiritual blindness, and every injustice taking place throughout time. Judgment will be severe for those whose dealings are evil. It will not be a walk in the park for those who profit from these lies. As far as my entertainment, if it draws one person into the truth about the absurdity of eternal torment then I have served God. Amen.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

So, Hell NO...may I ask you some things? Do you believe you are saved now? Or, do you believe you will be saved after you physically die? How would you recognized a saved person now? Do you know any? What does it mean to be saved? Lastly, who is Jesus to you? What do you think the purpose of His shed blood was? I'm more interested in your answers to these questions than whether or not you believe in an eternal hell or a temporary one...Thank you.


Patrick 4 years ago

I don't get it, I give you Psalm 103:8-9 and you give me Micah 7:18 which is a cross reference, I am still saying "how is God going to roast them forever when the Bible says He will not get angry forever.And you support me by saying "you (that's me I suppose) don't get angry forever.His mercies endureth forever, but He will never forgive the unbeliever in the afterlife.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Patrick, You asked "How is God going to roast them forever when the Bible says He will not get angry forever"? 'THEM' in Micah 7:18 are not 'children of the Devil'; they are His children and they will NOT be 'roasted forever' (your own description, not mine). In fact, there IS NO CONDEMNATION (judgement) for those who are in Christ Jesus. NONE! (Rom 8:1)

Those who will be cast into eternal hell, where the Devil, the Antichrist and False Prophet are, are not God's children, and He doesn't even know their names because they've been blotted OUT of the Lamb's Book of Life.

The Lake of Fire is not 'discipline' for the unsaved, for discipline is only for the children of God: Heb 12:8 "If God doesn't discipline you as He does all of His children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really His children at all." The discipline of the LORD is in THIS LIFE, for there will be NO SIN in the next. Consider ther ARE illegitimate children! There is such a thing, or God wouldn't mention it in His Word. Discipline and wrath are NOT the same thing.

God's children are guilty, but made righteous by faith in the LORD. The Devil's children are guilty and have no righteousness, do not 'learn' righteousness and have no faith in the LORD. They are sentenced to hell, not for a time, but forever.

If hell is not forever, then neither is heaven. And if you believe we're in and out of heaven and hell forever, that's not in the Bible and is of your OWN private interpretation.


Hell N0 4 years ago

Don't worry. I don't believe in a temporary hell either. Your questions reek of church doctrine. The "oh, I'm saved already" is like a college student still receiving checks from parents saying he/she has already succeeded in his/her career choice. This life is a journey and no one has been saved yet. To me, Jesus is the greatest creation of God the Father and all was created through him. His blood being shed represents the sacrifice for all mankind so that we all will been forgiven, even before we were born.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

When was Jesus created, Hell NO?

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

1 John 5:20 "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him who is true--even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."

1 Cor 12:3 "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord [Kurios/Yehovah]," except by the Holy Spirit."

"You must be born again" (John 3:7).


Questioner/Commenter 4 years ago

So "Carrie", comments on what you've written/quoted above..how do we "receive" the Holy Spirit? It is GIVEN to us by God.. we don't ask for it! Do you believe that you "save" yourself by believing? Do you believe that you summon up your own faith without ANY outside help. According to Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this (FAITH) is NOT from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast.

By reading these hubs, it seems as if you believe that you summoned up your own faith...and you've BOASTED about being saved! Another thing, if God doesn't "prevent people from their very SALVATION. He accomplishes His will, whatever it takes, but does NOT prevent someone from making the choice in receiving His salvation". What about the mentally challenged, babies who died etc...doesn't God in effect "prevent" these beings from "making the choice" in receiving their salvation??? On another hub you said that LRay Smith is not saved. How do you know?! Just because he doesn't believe in some "eternal" torture chamber? He believes that the only way to God is through Jesus and that Jesus died for his sins! NOWHERE in the bible does it say that you have to believe in "eternal" hell or you'll go there!! You falsely judged LRay Smith and the Bible says that how you judge others, you will be judged! And what do you make of God COMMANDING us to not only LOVE our enemies, but to DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO HATE YOU?? How about another commandment of God to BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU??? The way you treat some of these people who post on here is disgusting!!! Not exactly "turning the other cheek" are you?


Patrick 4 years ago

I was actually waiting for you to post my last but one comment, but i can see that you are not prepared to do that.I sent you two comments you responded to only one, why?God will not be angry forever and this applies to His children only, but for the children of the devil He will be angry forever.This is how God works and He is not a respecter of persons.Malachi 2:10 Have we not one father?Matt 23:9 You have one father ,which is in heaven.Ezek 18:4 All souls are mine.Now I find myself discussing Mica 7:18 when I was suppose to be discussing Psalm 103:8-9, am i being derailed?You say "God (the all knowing) does not even know their names,have you read Rev 17:8"whose names were NOT written in the book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.." Does a child choose to be illegitimate,i mean on his own?Are you not confusing "punish with chasteneth"?You say "if hell is not forever" I say "Jonah was in hell for three days" no "ifs" about it, are you sure Jonah was in the same hell you are preaching?I hope this is not my OWN private interpretation.I like it when you say that God's children are guilty but MADE righteous, pity that those He did not MAKE righteous must roast forever.The children of God are MADE (not self) righteous by the faith OF Christ( not their own faith).Please teach me more are you saying condemnation is judgment?Please give me a verse that says "there is no forgiveness of sin beyond the grave" and "Jesus Christ will save those who want or are willing to be saved".God's mercies endureth forever-for believers only?He will not be angry forever for believers only,heaven is made for believers only,Jesus died for believers only,in Adam we all unconditionally fell into sin but in Christ we are contionally saved.Who wouldn't be confused.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Questioner/Commenter, you must have left your comment while I was sleeping or working; so here I am on a Friday night to answer you.

You asked/stated, "how do we "receive" the Holy Spirit? It is GIVEN to us by God.. we don't ask for it!" Jesus Himself said in Luke 11:13, "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your CHILDREN, how much more will YOUR FATHER in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him!" Again, this applies to the children of God, those who believe in the gospel by faith and follow Him, not those who reject Him and His Word.

Do you BELIEVE Ephesians 2:8-9? If so, then why do Universalists believe salvation comes through works and fire, if those works aren't good enough? Totally goes against this passage, if you ask me.

1 Cor 1:31 "Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." The LORD has given you salvation, if you will receive it by faith! What an awesome truth to boast about!

You asked "What about the mentally challenged, babies who died etc...doesn't God in effect "prevent" these beings from "making the choice" in receiving their salvation???"

Take it or leave it, for I have hubs written about this topic under Judah's Daughter: Everyone's names start out in the Lamb's Book of Life. They are 'covered' by His grace until they choose to reject Him. Those who are babies, mentally challenged, etc. are NOT GUILTY of this rejection of the gospel. Check out what Jesus SAID in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would NOT BE GUILTY of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin."

John 12:48 "But all who REJECT Me and My message will be judged on the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken."

L Ray Smith cannot be saved and preach this 'other gospel'; and according to Hell NO, No ONE is saved yet...and I quote "no one has been saved yet". Gal 1:8-9 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Does L Ray Smith believe as 'Hell NO', that "no one has been saved yet"? If so, he's leading multitudes right into the pit, who will NOT receive the message of SALVATION TODAY, an appointed time to die, then comes JUDGMENT (sentencing, not salvation)! Pied Piper...

Acts 17:20 "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but NOW He commands ALL people EVERYWHERE to REPENT."

2 Cor 6:2 "For He says, "In the time of My favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, NOE is the time of God's favor, NOW is the day of salvation."

Whether or not you believe in eternal hell does not affect whether you can be or are saved. There are many saved today that don't 'believe' in hell, but they don't invent a doctrine that 'hell fire' purifies people from sin!! God will be their Judge, for Eze 33:6 states, "But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'"

You don't perceive that I love you? Why have I spent years here debating the Truth with you? Taking the hits and continuing with you? Loving you doen't mean I give you soft words and say what you believe doesn't matter; that would be hating you. 1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." God's love is unlike human 'love'.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Patrick,

John 3:12 "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" May I give you some clarification to your missing the mark of understanding the scriptures to which you refer?

God is no respecter of persons, when it comes to who can be saved. GET THAT, okay? Calivinism and the doctrine of double predestination is LIE, another FALSE GOSPEL!!

As I just told you in my previous comment, EVERYONE's names start out in the Lamb's Book of Life! He was in the womb to save those in the womb. He was a baby, a toddler, a teenager, a young man and a full-grown man to SAVE everyone. He paid the price! It is YOUR OWN CHOICE to REJECT Him, if you do...

Just look up ALL the passages that have to do with names being BLOTTED OUT of the Lamb's Book of Life. You're referring to the verse found in Rev 13:8, the FINAL judgment. It is THEN He will divide the sheep from the goats ~ anyone whose name is THEN not FOUND written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which has been there since the foundation of the world, will not be saved ~ EVER.

The belly of the whale being called 'Sheol' is an idiom and nothing more. Was Jonah in the grave? NO! So, GET IT. It was a state of distress, for sure ~ and if God hadn't planned to send him to Nineveh, as He ordered Him to do, he wouldn't have been cast overboard and swallowed and spit up to begin with. You can't make a whole doctrine of hell out of Jonah, anymore than you can say Jesus spent three days in 'hell' in the same manner...only to 'get outta there'. JESUS NEVER SINNED. He took our sin to the grave. He went and made proclamation to the 'spirits now in prison' in Tartaroo, the deepest abyss of Sheol/Hades ~ those who sinned in the days of Noah, if you read it in context. He didn't SAVE them! He rather proclaimed His VICTORY.

If righteousness does NOT come by the Law, and there are many who refuse to believe otherwise, that is their choice and they have nullified the grace of God (Gal 2:21). It is mankind that CHOOSES NOT to be saved. That is WHY they are WITHOUT EXCUSE, when it comes to the final judgment.

"Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you [Jews] first. Since YOU REJECT IT and do not consider YOURSELVES worthy of eternal life, we NOW turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46)

Really, faith is NOT required of US? We simply live by the faith of Christ? Well, now ~ explain WHY Abraham obeyed the voice of the LORD? Explain why the Law is NOT of faith? Explain how, without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God? Again, you are not understanding the gospel.

Rom 6:16 states, "Don't you know that when YOU OFFER YOURSELVES to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom YOU OBEY--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" This obedience has nothing to do with the Law of commandments and ordinances; it has everything to do with obeying the VOICE of the LORD, just as Abraham did. Only His sheep will 'hear' His voice and follow Him. So, if you've never heard His voice, you have to ask yourself WHY.

You asked, "Please give me a verse that says "there is no forgiveness of sin beyond the grave" Heb 9:27 "each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment." And, ask yourself WHY the 'rich man' (nameless) was not told he should just hang tight, for one day Jesus would come and preach salvation to him ~ or, after he'd paid for his sin he could come out.

"...and "Jesus Christ will save those who want or are willing to be saved" John 6:37 "whoever comes to Me I will never cast out."

You state the truth, finally: "God's mercies endureth forever-for believers only. He will not be angry forever-for believers only; heaven is made for believers only; Jesus died for believers only [those who reject Him nullify His grace; Mat 20:28 also]; in Adam we all unconditionally fell into sin but in Christ we are contionally saved [no other Way]." Who wouldn't be confused." God is NOT the Author of Confusion.


SoM 4 years ago

If you combine a carnal view to scripture with fear, blind ego, self-righteous pride, a hidden desire for vengeance and spark the religious engine with a pharisitical spirit. You get a determined believer of hell. To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance without mercy would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him a hypocrite with the utmost malignity. You sound so selfrighteouse sister, and are one of many who claim they understand the teachings and warnings from Christ to the Jews. That's right. I said Jews. Christ who came only to minister to the lost sheep of Israel, tried to save them from the coming wrath of God. This warning of the symbolic use of the place known as Gehenna was only meant for the Jews, not the gentiles. If it were, why hasn't Paul warned the gentiles about Gehenna? In 2 Thess, he does encourage the believers that the Jews who were persecuting them will also be killed during the time of God's wrath, and prophecy from Dan 7 and 8, Matt 3:10 and Math 24 was fullfilled A.D.70 with the sieg of Jerusalem and the second destruction of the temple during the times of all apostles. You think you know what salvation means? You have no idea. The Holy Book of the living God suffers more from its exponents today than from all its opponents.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hello SoM, If I understand you correctly, you find it insane “that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance without mercy would be infinite losers by that existence” – well, guess what, He KNEW Adam and Eve would fall. He allowed them to CHOOSE to follow His will or the ways of His Adversary. In the same manner, He gives the responsibility to CHOOSE to repent, by putting trust in Him, the All Powerful, to enable us to do so. That’s our loving God.

Rev 13:8 tells us (KJV) “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the Antichrist], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Now, we could read this in the NAS “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” Either way, there’s this Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb since the foundation of the world. We know the Lamb wasn’t slain at the foundation of the world, but this slaying of the Lamb was predestined to manifest at the exact point in time that it did. In fact, Heb 9:26 explains, “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” See, EVERYONE’s names start out in that BOOK. They are BLOTTED OUT by their OWN choosing (Ex 32:33; Deut 29:20; Ps 9:5; 69:28; Rev 3:5).

In other words, those who loved God and lived by faith in the Old Testament (read Heb 11) certainly sinned, and some REPENTED of their sin and lived by FAITH. Rom 3:23 tells us ALL have sinned. The Lamb was slain for ALL, yet – just as there were believers and pagans all throughout the OT, there are still believers and pagans all throughout the NT and yet today. These are the sheep and the goats, and it is not by God’s choice they are this way; it is by the God-given gift of choice they are this way. For this reason, we can understand 2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing [desiring] for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” We are under His grace to decide until we taste physical death. “NOW is the day of salvation” (2 Cor 6:2/Ps 69:13/Is 49:8). “God is NOW declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent.”

Verses such as Rom 6:16, Ez 18:31; 33:11) show us this is OUR CHOICE to repent or not. Listen, because ALL have sinned, ALL are ALREADY CONDEMNED (John 3:18). Demons are ALREADY CONDEMNED (Mat 8:29). Whether one is a Jew or Gentile doesn’t matter. No one since the beginning of creation were Jews up until the son of Isaac, JACOB was renamed ‘Israel’. Surely, the Jews were a chosen people and frankly, “salvation is from the Jews”, not meaning it comes FROM THEM, but from the ROOT and OFFSPRING of David (king of Israel) = Jesus Christ, our Savior and LORD, the KING of Spiritual Israel (all believers – Romans 11). Jesus came to save that which was LOST, condemned already. He started with His own people (the Jews), but they did not receive Him (John 1:11). Truly, having created ALL things (John 1:3), He is LORD of all of us, and whether or not we receive Him as Savior and LORD is the final factor. JUDGMENT DAY IS COMING.

You may THINK all of Revelation has been fulfilled since 70 AD, but you CANNOT answer WHY John was still sitting on the island of Patmos, receiving PROPHECY (future events) in 95 AD. Revelation means ‘Apocalypse’. This hub is not about refuting Preterism, so I’m not even going there with you.


SoM 4 years ago

Sister, like I said before. It is the belief of hell and those who endorse it that I find insane. Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased with tales, so is it for men (women as well). You spit out scripture as if you know what you are talking about. The book of revelations was not written in A.D. 95. The answer to when it was written is in the book itself. It was written before the fall of Jerusalem. In Rev 11, it tells us that the temple is still in tacked. There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's (Rev 1:4).

These two verses are very similar in context

Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [Greek word #5443] of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes [Greek word #5443] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

These two verses are speaking of the same event. Matthew 24:30 is a verse that speaks of the fall of Jerusalem. And that is just the case that I am making about the book of Revelation -- it speaks of the fall of Jerusalem.

In Chapter 17 and 18 it talks about a woman known as the great whore. This is a city, and there is only one city where our Lord was slain (Rev 11:8) and the whore is symbolic for Jerusalem. This book symbolically prophesizes the end of the old covenant (age Matt 24:3) with the destruction of the temple and the daily sacrifice a second time. With Christ being the last lamb, the OC is no longer required. The 2nd destruction of the temple is also found symbolically in Revelations four times. It is called the second death. Revelations (Unveiling) was a last attempt to save as many Jews as possible before the day of the great slaughter. So it is clearly evident that the book was written before A.D.70. To deny it is your choice sister. If it is the will of my Father, in hope, I try to open spiritual eyes to scripture, as the carnal eyes distract believers from God's message of hope and love and confuses possible believers with their literal interpretation of the Holy book. You still haven't said why Paul never warned the gentiles about Gehenna?


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Quoted from my International Inductive Study Bible for Revelation: "He [John] was faithful to his calling even in the midst of Nero's persecutions of Christians in A.D. 54 through 68 and then Domitian's in A.D. 81 through 96. While John was on Patmos, God unveiled to him the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and what soon would come to pass - a revelation unparalleled, the last to be given. It was about A.D. 95."

Quoted from this article: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/hell.html

"All but one of the letters of the Apostle Paul mention the wrath or judgment of God on sin. And of the twelve uses of the word gehenna (the strongest word for hell) in the New Testament, eleven come from the lips of Jesus himself! In fact, the Savior taught more about hell than He did about heaven! Of the more than 1850 verses recording the words of Christ, 13% pertain to the topics of judgment and hell. Of the 40 or so parables uttered by Jesus, more than half relate to God's eternal judgment on sin. Surprisingly, the much beloved "Sermon on the Mount" contains some of Jesus' most straightforward words about hell!"

Is 'hell' only for the Jews? I think not. The first Passover (salvation by obedience to spreading the blood of a lamb on their doorposts) was given to them; Jesus, the root and offspring of them, preached to them - and even spoke with the 'dog' (the Samaritan woman) at the well. Sodom and Gomorrah were not Jewish people, and the wrath of God came upon them (judgment on the earth); however, they are yet to be judged in the final judgement: Jesus said in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (also see Mat 11:24).

Now, for those who, by grace are saved through FAITH (not the Lake of Fire) - Read and ponder Eph 2:8-9 - the message of 1 Thes 5:9 is given: "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 8:1-2 also speaks to those saved by grace through FAITH: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

Gehenna is 'the second death' and for those whose FAITH has been tried and proven (1 Pet 1:7) it has NO POWER over them (Rev 20:6). Understand that FIRE doesn't bring FAITH, rather FAITH, which is obtained by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17), will not be overpowered by FIRE. Those without FAITH will suffer the eternal fire (Mat 25:41 and many other passages).

And, if you want to 'reason'/'debate' about the meaning of 'eternal'/'everlasting', just compare the Hebrew/Greek words to passages that tell us about 'eternal/everlasting' life and our 'eternal/everlasting' God. If you want to limit the words to a period of time regarding the Lake of Fire, you MUST do the same regarding the LORD God and life after death.


SoM 4 years ago

Pure speculation, and nothing more without proof. In Rev 10:11, John is told that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings". Now, if John would have received this revelation in A.D.95 and written it at that time, then these words which he was told did not come to pass, seeing that he was a very old man at that time and hardly able to walk and travel. But, if John did receive this revelation and write it down during the time of Nero approx 65-66 AD, then he could fulfill what he was told. He would have been able to prophesy and to teach during the reigns of Caesars Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus and also Domitian (spanning the time from 68-95 A.D.). God's Judgement? Hmm, lets not use the word hell for a moment and call it what it really was called by Christ, "Gehenna". Yes the symbolic use of Gehenna was only meant for the Jews and no one else. The wage of sin is death, not a second death or eternal torture. It is no secret that determined hell believer have a hidden thirst for vengeance on their brothers and sisters who refuse to believe. You almost remind me of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Is the fire in Matt 3:10 the same fire found in Rev 20:10?


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

SoM, It's convenient to quote the KJV of Rev 10:11, which is incorrectly translated 'prophesy again BEFORE many peoples'. The Greek word is 'epi', which means 'as to' - so, the correct translation would be that John is to prophesy again as to many peoples, etc..., which he goes on to do in regard to the measuring of the temple in the next chapter.

Again, understand that Revelation is a book of prophecy, all of which John wrote. Prophecy is regarding the future, not past. The topic of this hub is not about Preterism. Frankly, the whole doctrine is reprobate and a full waste of my time. Satan, the spirit of Antichrist and False Prophet are still running rampant, which they won't be at the beginning of the millennial reign, according to Revelation 19:21 & 20:1-2. And post-millennia, Satan's cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet ARE yet being tormented (Rev 20:10). The first of two resurrections happens at the beginning of the milennial reign, the second after (Rev 20:5). You have NO CASE.

You are wrong that Gehenna only applied to the Jews. There are those who live by FAITH and there are those who do not. There is NO distinction between Jew and Gentile, male or female, slave or free man, according to (Rom 10:12; Col 3:11 and the whole chapter of Rom 11). There ARE two deaths for unbelievers; only one for believers. All die physically (1 Cor 15:22) and ALL will be raised from the dead to either go to eternal life (His right - Mat 25:34) or eternal condemnation (His left - Mat 25:41), the latter confirmation is found in Rev 20:11-14.

The souls of the slain saints of God cry out to Him to be avenged at the fifth seal (Rev 6:9-10). It is the wrath of God upon those who persecuted Him by persecuting His children (Acts 9:4), and just as Saul (Paul) repented after persecuting God's children, so must they that are persecuting God's childen, and therefore, Christ, in order to escape His wrath. Once they physically die, there is no more chance for repentance. Your 'Lake of Fire' purification doctrine is as reprobate as the Catholic doctrine of 'Purge-a-tory'.

You want to 'love' the world; you want to believe none will be lost; you want to believe all wickedness will be purged unto holiness through fire, but that IS NOT what the Bible prophesies. 1 John 2:15 states, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." James 4:4 "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." Yes, God so 'loved' the world in John 3:16 that He died for all; however, those who reject Him, nullify His grace (Gal 2:21) and have their names blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, as we discussed before. Abraham was called the 'Friend of God' (Is 41:8; Jam 2:23) and we can better understand what Jesus said in John 15:13: "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

Mat 3:10 is prophecy, just as Rev 20:10 is prophecy. Yes, this is the same Lake of Fire.


SoM 4 years ago

Thank you. And your answer to Matt 3:10 and Rev 20:10 has just created a plank to bridge the gap between our beliefs. You believe that many will burn eternally and I believe the exact opposite and the biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled. The answer lies in Matt 3:10. The prophecy that John spoke about happened already. Allow me to break it down for you beloved sister. Matt 3:10 The ax (Roman occupation of Judah) is already (Lifetime of John) at the root (Jerusalem) of the trees (Jews Isaiah 60:21), and every tree (Jew)that does not produce good fruit (Except Christ as their messiah) will be cut down (killed) and thrown into the fire (Gehenna which is symbolic for God's wrath on Judah). (brackets are mine) In Matt 24, Christ spoke to his disciples about the horrific event to come in their lifetime. Matt 16: 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” There you have it sister. So how can anyone deny that this event did happened A.D.70-73?

Do you even know what and where the lake of Fire (LoF) is? What the symbolic use of this fire is about and what it does? The Greek word Bosanos in Rev 20:10 means touch stone. To test the qualities of metals. This same fire we find in 1Cor 3:10-15 and Heb 12:29. This fire is also known as the second death. The symbolic death of the religion of the Jews with the destruction of the temple a second time A.D. 70 and the first death was anno B.C. 500 when Babylon destroyed the temple the first time. You cannot take something symbolic and literally interpret it, and call it truth.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

SoM, In Acts 1:11, the angels said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Hmmm. They WATCHED Him go. Have you SEEN Him return in this manner? Did ANYONE for that matter? There's a 'plank' involved here, for sure, and it's certainly not to bridge a gap in our theology. In fact, there's yet a great chasm, if you ask me. Is the resurrected Jesus to be taken symbolically or literally? I know the answer, thank you.

Mat 16:27 is prophetic of the last Day, as based on the whole of Scripture. Mat 16:28 is not a continual thought of 27, but rather the beginning of what transpires just six days later at the mount of transfiguration.

Speaking of symbolic or literal, if you want to know what and where the Lake of Fire is, I invite you to read my Bible study on the subject: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Locati...

Fire can be used to keep people warm, light candles, cook food and burn leaves or trash. It does not harm anyone, unless it is neglected (rejected), in which case it becomes a blazing inferno that destroys homes and those sleeping in it. Just because the Greek word for ‘fire’ (pur) is used both of purification and destruction, the only thing it purifies is FAITH, and since Eph 2:8 tells us we are SAVED BY FAITH, those who don’t believe have no faith to be purified. Well, then again, Rom 10:17 does tell us 'Faith comes by Fire' (check it out). NOT. Rather, the fire of destruction awaits those who reject so great a salvation.

And, if you think the ‘wicked’ live in ‘fire’ here on erath, it would only be due to the wrath of God; on the contrary, Jer 12:1 tells us “the way of wicked prospers” here. It is the believers who are being tried with trials and afflictions (fire) here, testing their what? Oh yeah, FAITH.

In John 12:25 Jesus said, "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal."

Let me ask you a very sincere question. Do you believe what Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26? "everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" Where is Martha today, SoM?

Preterism is a doctrine founded upon the sand (Mat 7:18). I pray the Holy Spirit open your mind to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:45).


SoM 4 years ago

Then why did the angels ask why are you looking into heaven? Does the day of penacost mean little to you? Is it not written that Christ would leave them a comforter? Is not the comforter the spirit of Truth? Did not Christ say He is the truth? As to answer your question where Martha is now, she is with our heavenly Father. She and all who have died as prodigal sons, have gone back to the Father threw Christ's obedience. Will all mankind believe in Christ? Is it not written that every knee will bow, and tongue confess that Christ is Lord? It is evident that the thought of universal salvation puts a sour taste in your mouth. I am grateful for this "Good news", and that I am free from the fear of hell. As I no longer believe in hell, I am more encouraged through my Fathers unfailing love to teach the real good news to those who thirst for it, and leave the old wine sacks to follow their image of God (Dan 3:1-6). I ask my Father to set those who seek the real truth free from fear of hell, and to fear only our Father as His anger is but a moment, but His love endures always.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

SoM, Was God not with His people in Spirit all throughout the Old Testament? So why the appearance as ‘God with us’? Oh! Because He had to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:22). In order to receive forgiveness, repentance is required (Ez 18:31; 33;11). God is now not only WITH us in Spirit, but dwells IN believers because of the Day of Pentecost. Just as He came in the flesh 2000 years ago, He is coming again, and ‘every eye will see Him’ (Rev 1:7).

You asked, “Will all mankind believe in Christ? Is it not written that every knee will bow, and tongue confess that Christ is Lord?” Believing is FAITH, which is the evidence of things NOT SEEN (Heb 11:1). Every eye will see Him and just as the demons are NOT saved, yet called Jesus ‘the Son of God’ (Mat 8:29) and believe that God is ONE, they tremble, knowing they have an appointed time for their condemnation. James 2:19 “You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.” Continue reading that Chapter to understand what ‘dead’ faith is, in comparison to a ‘dead’ body.

Your believing there is no hell does not mean it does not exist, anymore than an Atheist believing there is no God. Sharing the false message with the already condemned world (John 3:18) that Jesus will save them, no matter what, is sending you straight to hell, for YOU are taking responsibility for their avoidance of doing what it takes to be saved, namely being ‘born again’ in John 3. We are not ‘born again’ after physical death, but “NOW is the acceptable time. NOW is the Day of Salvation.” (2 Cor 6:2)

Ez 33:6, 8 “'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.' "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.”

So, what am I doing and what are you doing? I’m warning, you are excusing. You call God ‘my Father’ – do you call Him ‘Abba’? If so, then you must have received the spirit of adoption (Rom 8:15). Adoption is needed because you first belong to another ‘father’, the Devil. Are you ‘born again’? Have you received the Holy Spirit? Do you know whether or not you’re are saved right now? Most Universalists cannot claim salvation, and in fact, don’t. I can tell you a child of God would not preach universal salvation or Preterism.

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