Rebellion and Contention

This hub originated after posting a hub which produced a comments section ‘par excellence’ from some of our more studied believers, folk that I respect for their inquisitive attitude to biblical interpretation.

(One of them immediately accused me of slander for crediting them in the hub, so those names are now removed.)

There are always some comments that, in their own way, seek to dismiss the bible as literal, a common trait these days when folk are all challenging the veracity of scripture, which is well and good, and it’s better that folk do this openly and can discuss things, rather than we burn them at the stake for daring to read what God gave us to read, and think their own thoughts about the interpretation.

Discussion and even dissention is good, when it is for the pursuit of truth.

If it’s from a rebellious or contentious spirit, then it’s bad for them and boring for those of us who know about those things, rebellion and contention I mean.

I certainly have been both rebellious and contentious in my walk over the years, always frustrated that those in authority over me could not see the relevance of whatever I was studying five hours a day to learn about, convinced that I had found THE revelation that would transform the church.

Did I mention that in my secular life I had been a compulsive addictive personality?

Anyhow, I always KNEW that I was right, I mean it was obvious to me that the others were just pew warming and docile, content with the milk they were fed weekly and expecting acceptance by God just for mouthing the words on Sundays.

Then one day I realized that if I looked back, there were many differing aspects of belief that I had adopted and then abandoned as error, at least error to me, and that in these rejections in search of a better truth, I had only rejected them in favor of new truths that were now just as imperative to be shared with all who would listen

The internet has been a wonderful tool for study and research, but equally it has made instant experts of most anybody who can construct a Boolean search term and has enough brains to hit return, and I do not discount myself from that category.

But I started my search with ONE distinct advantage; for I truly KNEW that I was in the clutches of what I will term the enemy, when I sought refuge in Christ.

Now why do I call that which I sought to escape from the enemy, and not just Satan or Lucifer?

Simply put, there are many today who would flood the comments box with denials that either of these names were applicable to any evil connotation or demonic source, and frankly I cannot be bothered to answer those protestations, so I will call IT the enemy, as that is what it is, our (humanities) enemy, seeking to devour who it may, whilst persuading many that it does not exist.

Now was that PC enough for a raving fundamentalist believer’s description of THE enemy, after all why bother with names or designations when it is only a figment of our imagination or a corrupt translation of some bible scholar with malicious intent to deceive even the elect if he could…. Sorry, that was the enemy wasn’t it!... anyhow, I digress, which is often the intention of those who seek to deny the enemies existence, to cause one to falter from the course.

One writer presented a plethora of bible quotes, conveniently copied and pasted from a website that they also linked to (in my comments box, someone else wondered why I am so tolerant!) which I imagine were supposed to refute the vision of John, and which were supposedly NOT a vision of the last days, but in fact a description of the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in AD.79.

Now I always thought that John wrote Revelation under divine guidance form Christ, and I thought that because it opens with the words:

"[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John....."

I replied to their question “Did Jesus REALLY say that” with what is reproduced below, I may not produce full new fresh copy tonight, for I have been working these last 10 hours at a screen already, and frankly the only reason I am replying is that in one hour it is weekend and I will be trying to ignore the screen.,

Anyhow I wrote:

“Sounds pretty much like Christ is claiming this book as His own, and I would hesitate to think that ANYBODY would claim Christ had told them to write these words AS CHRISTS' if they were just a vivid dream or (more like) nightmare.

If you believe that these words are nothing more than mans words, then you have rejected a major book of the bible, and coincidently the one referring to these days.

That's abridge too far for me to swallow, so I must disagree if you say that the bible was NOT divinely inspired, though I can agree that there have been some dire interpretations made from Gods word, like I said before ALL TRUTH is in there to be found.”

And I stand by that, or “That’s all I have to say about that” as Forrest Gump would state.


I hold no argument with anybody cutting whatever sections of the bible they feel inadequate out, after all they must assume that it is arbitrary which bits we subscribe to and which bits we chose to ignore, and obviously once they realize that what they are reading does not make sense to them, why would they put any store in what some early Christian wrote after a lifetime of devoted study, without any internet connection to rely upon.

Most of these old time scholars had to rely on a total memory recall of a learned book which they knew by repetition and many years solitude with nothing but a bible to read.

Having to write each page by copying the last page written, and having to get each dot and title correct or do it again, probably led to some desperate attempts to corrupt the text without 10,000 churchmen realizing it.

No wonder they were so fanatically intent on stating that what God presented by divine inspiration, (WHOOPS SORRY, what man thought up to keep the masses in servitude), was literal and 100% God given.


I can imagine them now, shuffling forward on calloused knees whilst chuckling merrily about the confusion they would cause we modern folk by their devout writings, and what organization that they managed to get the scriptures they invented to actually correspond with prophetic events down the ages, amazing stuff, and all without benefit of an iPhone or Blackberry between them.

If I sound sarcastic it’s because I am tired and having to run spellchecker over each sentence in order to stay readable, I am also plain fed up with folk challenging my right to have finally resolved my differences with God and reach agreement that He WAS capable of giving us a bible that was relevant and totally able to give understanding to all who sought to understand, or produce confusion amongst all who sought not to understand.

What I am being presented with by these fellow writer is a basic move towards Preterism, which basically states that what was predicted to happen has already happened, so why wait for it any longer.


I have always found the argument futile, for it is self defeating.

If we have already had the Rapture and have been misreading all the verses that tell believers that they will be gathered up with Christ, then we also managed to miss the Antichrist and a whole lot of other stuff that somehow managed to happen without anyone making a note about it.

I feel for folk who are attempting to reconcile what they view as a defective bible with their belief that Christ is in their life and the promise of eternity with God.

I don’t profess to understand all the bible, and I certainly cannot say that I agree with everything which the bible tells me is truth, but I DO stand on the fact that God gave us humans EVERYTHING we needed to have in order to decide whether He was God or just an invention created by greedy power hungry men to control the masses.

I will also shorten the comments box again by accepting that the message of Christ HAS been taken and corrupted by greedy power hungry men to control the masses, or more precisely in today’s world, their pocket books, but I will draw the line at giving any succor to any believer who seeks to persuade me of anyone else that the bible is NOT the word of God.

Countless men and women of faith have died to honor Gods word and refused to deny Him when tortured and killed, yes it's true that yesterdays heretic may become a leader of faith, it was true for Luther, it was true for Christ, both were called heretics for what they stated, but I think we may be past the time for fresh revelation, the next point on the agenda as I read things will be the rise of New Age religion and Universalism, and as THOSE evils have been prophesied centuries ago, I am hesitant to accept new concepts which involve denying the veracity of scripture.

History is also littered with those who found Gods word unpalatable to them, so they changed it to suit themselves, Russell comes to mind, with his new religion, which became the Jehovah's Witnesses, David Koresh's Waco was another example and perhaps in living memory Georgetown was the worse excess of new thinking.

The fact is, it's NOT our right to make the Word of God fit our lives, it;s our OBLIGATION to make our lives fit the Word of God.

Why Hurt?

I used to play this song a lot when I was in a deep dark night of the soul, lack of faith trip, so it reminds me that whilst I may not have always been in the right place with God, I have always belonged to Him, and He has always cared for me, so I put this song  up, because it's a fine song and Johnny Cash was a good believer, even if like me he was a bad Christian at times!

More by this Author


Try to keep the comments shorter than hubs! 24 comments

HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 5 years ago

Nice one Bro, you probably said what I would have said, only, you used your own words.

Peace


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks HOOWANTSTONO, now I'm off to bed to catch some sleep, it's 1.46am Saturday where I am! So let the comments roll and I will look again when I awake!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

I was the one that called it slander. I am not what he says that I am and I am darned tired of the slandering, the lies and the boycotting of anything that I say or write and my hubs that is going around here on HP. Thous shalt not bear false witness and I did write a hub on that!


zzron profile image

zzron 5 years ago from Houston, TX.

I don't know about anyone else, but I do believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that every word is true. But that's just me, it makes perfect sense to me. I like how the Bible gives us free will to pick and choose how we believe.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"The fact is, it's NOT our right to make the Word of God fit our lives, it;s our OBLIGATION to make our lives fit the Word of God.

Well said!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA

The neat thing about reading what people write is that we have no visible face, personality, tone of voice or body language, etc. to relate to ~ only words, which is a reflection of the mind, spirit and heart.

There are those who are somehow drawn to where the Spirit of God is and, I believe, they continually fall under conviction, which ends up exhibited in defensive, offensive and contentious comments. They reveal their own mind, spirit and heart to everyone, so any reputation they have is what it is.

It is troubling to the soul, yet you are consciencious and gracious, John. You have such tolerance and humility, yet know where you stand today, hanging on to the lessons you have learned. Your root is deep and your tree is sprouting strong branches that are bearing fruit. God bless you, brother. Press on.


rocketjsqu profile image

rocketjsqu 5 years ago from Gainesville, NY USA

Hey John,

When we're weary, even defending our innocence is a struggle. I'm with you, the bible is no doubt the word of God. The problem as I see it is not in what's written but rather in the way it is perceived (interpreted). I believe every word was inspired by God, but not necessarily to be taken literally as its written. It's when people draw hypothesis and conclusion from words taken out of context that rebellion and contention begins. Victory is often closest when you feel the weakest.

Ron

P.S. Where did you get the picture of the donkey and the cart? lol


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks to all of you for commenting, and endorsing this hub, it always helps to have fellow believers support ones stance.

The donkey photo came from Googling 'Preterist' and I think is apt for the description....


EnLydia Listener 5 years ago

I just watched the video...

Very moving...I appreciate your reponse to End is Nigh...When God reveals himself to you personally it is hard to listen to others who want to refute Him and His Word.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Yes it is EnLydia Listener. It truly is. I have had a few experiences with God and Jesus both. Amazing, that either times not once was I asked if I believed in them or read the Bible or even if I was such and such religion. There was only love and it was like nothing of this world we live in.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

2 Corinthians 11 1:15 (Amplified Bible)

I WISH you would bear with me while I indulge in a little [so-called] foolishness.

Do bear with me!

For I am zealous for you with a godly eagerness and a divine jealousy, for I have betrothed you to one Husband, to present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted and seduced from wholehearted and sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received and welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!

Yet I consider myself as in no way inferior to these [precious]extra-super [false] apostles.

But even if [I am] unskilled in speaking, yet [I am] not [unskilled] in knowledge [I know what I am talking about]; we have made this evident to you in all things.

But did I perhaps make a mistake and do you a wrong in debasing and cheapening myself so that you might be exalted and enriched in dignity and honor and happiness by preaching God's Gospel without expense to you?

Other churches I have robbed by accepting [more than their share of] support for my ministry [from them in order] to serve you.

And when I was with you and ran short financially, I did not burden any [of you], for what I lacked was abundantly made up by the brethren who came from Macedonia. So I kept myself from being burdensome to you in any way, and will continue to keep [myself from being so].

As the truth of Christ is in me, this my boast [of independence] shall not be debarred (silenced or checked) in the regions of Achaia (most of Greece).

And why?

Because I do not love you [do not have a preference for you, wish you well, and regard your welfare]?

God perceives and knows that I do!

But what I do, I will continue to do, [for I am determined to maintain this independence] in order to cut off the claim of those who would like [to find an occasion and incentive] to claim that in their boasted [mission] they work on the same terms that we do.

For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah).

And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light;

So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [But] their end will correspond with their deeds.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Paul's words, not Jesus's. I stick with Jesus because Jesus is in my heart, not Paul.

2 Corinthians 11:1-15 (Young's Literal Translation)

2 Corinthians 11

1O that ye were bearing with me a little of the folly, but ye also do bear with me:

2for I am zealous for you with zeal of God, for I did betroth you to one husband, a pure virgin, to present to Christ,

3and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that [is] in the Christ;

4for if, indeed, he who is coming doth preach another Jesus whom we did not preach, or another Spirit ye receive which ye did not receive, or other good news which ye did not accept -- well were ye bearing [it],

5for I reckon that I have been nothing behind the very chiefest apostles,

6and even if unlearned in word -- yet not in knowledge, but in every thing we were made manifest in all things to you.

7The sin did I do -- myself humbling that ye might be exalted, because freely the good news of God I did proclaim to you?

8other assemblies I did rob, having taken wages, for your ministration;

9and being present with you, and having been in want, I was chargeable to no one, for my lack did the brethren supply -- having come from Macedonia -- and in everything burdenless to you I did keep myself, and will keep.

10The truth of Christ is in me, because this boasting shall not be stopped in regard to me in the regions of Achaia;

11wherefore? because I do not love you? God hath known!

12and what I do, I also will do, that I may cut off the occasion of those wishing an occasion, that in that which they boast they may be found according as we also;

13for those such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ,

14and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

15no great thing, then, if also his ministrants do transform themselves as ministrants of righteousness -- whose end shall be according to their works.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

The word Armageddon appears only once in the Greek New Testament.[5] The word comes from Hebrew har m?giddô (?? ?????), meaning "Mountain of Megiddo". Megiddo is a small mountain on which ancient forts were built that guarded the main highway, the Via Maris, that connected Ancient Egypt with Mesopotamia. Megiddo was the location of many decisive battles in ancient times (including one in the 15th century BC and one in 609 BC). The town Megiddo in Israel is approximately 25 miles (40 km) westsouthwest of the southern tip of the Sea of Galilee (or Lake Tiberias to the Romans) in the Kishon River area.[6]

Christianity

Evangelist John of Patmos writes the Book of Revelation. Painting by Hieronymus Bosch (1505).

See also: Christian eschatology

Megiddo is mentioned 12 places in Hebrew Scripture, twice with reference to "the plain of Megiddo". Because a plain is not a mountain, some Christian scholars conclude the "Mount of Megiddo" must be an idealized location.[7] Rushdoony says, "There are no mountains of Megiddo, only the Plains of Megiddo. This is a deliberate destruction of the vision of any literal reference to the place."[8]

Other scholars, including C. C. Torrey, Kline and Jordan argue that the word is derived from the Hebrew moed (????), meaning "assembly". Thus, "Armageddon" would mean "Mountain of Assembly," which Jordan says is "a reference to the assembly at Mount Sinai, and to its replacement, Mount Zion."[7]

Dispensationalism

The Dispensational viewpoint interprets biblical prophecy literally and expects that the fulfillment of prophecy will also be literal, depending upon the context of scripture. In his discussion of Armageddon, J. Dwight Pentecost has devoted an entire chapter to the subject, titled "The Campaign of Armageddon", in which he discusses Armageddon as a campaign and not a specific battle, which will be fought in the Middle East. Pentecost writes:

It has been held commonly that the battle of Armageddon is an isolated event transpiring just prior to the second advent of Christ to the earth. The extent of this great movement in which God deals with "the kings of the earth and of the whole world" (Rev. 16:14) will not be seen unless it is realized that the "battle of that great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14)[9] is not an isolated battle, but rather a campaign that extends over the last half of the tribulation period. The Greek word "polemo", translated "battle" in Revelation 16:14, signifies a war or campaign, while "mach?" signifies a battle, and sometimes even single combat. This distinction is observed by Trench, (see Richard C. Trench, New Testament Synonyms, pp.301-2) and is followed by Thayer (see Joseph Henry Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 528) and Vincent (see Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, II, 541). The use of the word polemos (campaign) in Revelation 16:14 would signify that the events that culminate in the gathering at Armageddon at the second advent are viewed by God as one connected campaign.

—Pentecost, p.340


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

John 9:14-20 (Young's Literal Translation)

14and it was a sabbath when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

15Again, therefore, the Pharisees also were asking him how he received sight, and he said to them, `Clay he did put upon my eyes, and I did wash -- and I see.'

16Of the Pharisees, therefore, certain said, `This man is not from God, because the sabbath he doth not keep;' others said, `How is a man -- a sinful one -- able to do such signs?' and there was a division among them.

17They said to the blind man again, `Thou -- what dost thou say of him -- that he opened thine eyes?'

18and he said -- `He is a prophet.' The Jews, therefore, did not believe concerning him that he was blind and did receive sight, till that they called the parents of him who received sight,

19and they asked them, saying, `Is your son, of whom ye say that he was born blind? how then now doth he see?'

20His parents answered them and said, `We have known that this is our son, and that he was born blind;


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

...and your point is?


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

I can quote scripture too.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Contextually applicable and pertinent is also an advantage.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

MUaaaahahahahaha----You confuse everything. Why you ask? Well in another one of your hubs you said that we have an eternity to learn............then in another you believe we are all going to die next year............then when some of us don't agree we get this nice little hub flaming us.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Whether we die next year, or tonight, we still have an eternity to learn.... that's if you believe in eternity with Christ and God, or eternity without them?

Do you believe that?

I think you are in need of some counselling, and I mean that sincerely and with no offence intended.

You see an attack in every sentence written which does not concur with your ideas.

When in truth, nobody cares what you think, any more than they care what I think, unless they agree with you or me.

When we write we MAY actually reach and empower one person in a few thousand readers.

Life is too short to worry about the others who discount or dismiss our offerings.

I think I will close this comments box when I awake, unless other readers express that I should keep it open.

There are about 8 hours before I will close the comments, feel free to use them if you wish.

General comments welcomed!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Are you looking in the mirror? Wow talk about defensive and putting your fears onto someone else.

I shall not respond anymore. You can live in your dreamworld and I can live in mine. Like I stated before 2 of us stated our beliefs and gave our proofs and then we get this hub and then you turn it around----people like you are good at that. Nothing is ever your doing--it's always god or satan, never you or your thoughts-----Do Unto Others as You would Have Them Do Unto You. Love They Neighbors As Thyself--don't mean a thing if you do as you preach.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

So be it.


heavenbound5511 profile image

heavenbound5511 5 years ago from Under the shadow of the Almighty God!

I agree with you John about Lining up to God's word/will and that the Bible we have today is all we need to be able to seek and find God through Jesus.

Our great big powerful God wouldn't let His word become useless. It is for us and God's word is truly alive and never ends while studying it!

After all God did tell us His word,God's word is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When we see God's word clearly we will than know what state we are in and how much we truly need Jesus.

The message of Jesus is not confusing, God loves us isn't confusing- very simple in fact, that even children can understand this life saving free gift. No one that has set their self against Jesus on purpose, refusing His love, grace, mercy,death,resurrection,- HIS SALVATION- They will have any excuse to have turned away there only hope and unconditional love.

Stay strong in the Lord!


ethel smith profile image

ethel smith 5 years ago from Kingston-Upon-Hull

Yes arguing is futile. You either come to faith or you do not. I have not. Not yet anyways. Who knows with time. Thanks for sharing your thoughts


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Ethel, nil desperandum, I was 41 before I stopped avoiding God, and 19 years later I still have moments when my faith is tested, daily in fact!

But having a relationship has led me to TRUST that God knows best for my life, and apart from when I get involved, life works pretty well with Gods guidance.

Thanks for reading, thanks for carrying on with the search for your truth, for as long as we are open to being proven wrong, we will continue to search for and eventually find God.

John

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