Response to Gina: L. Ray Smith Followers
Gina Wrote (And I Quote):
I see you have something against the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I think it's amazing whenever I come across Christians who say that they believe that Jesus Christ is so powerful, but they don't really believe it. And, yet, those who believe it are the one's who need help, who need saving -- in order that we can become like you -- the many -- who believe that Christ is an complete and utter failure? Been there. Done that.
See, the whole world of Christendom believes that Christ is able to save people like you (who aren't so bad), but He's not able to save the "sons of perdition."
You said to Roy,
"You quoted 2 Thes 2:3, but neglect to get the clarification as to who the son of perdition is in verses 4- 8: “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God… Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.”
Well, let's see if we can figure out who the son of perdition is, Miss Carrie, shall we? But first, let's peek at the origin of the word "perdition":
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French perdiciun, from ecclesiastical Latin perditio(n-), from Latin perdere ‘destroy,’ from per- ‘completely, to destruction’ + the base of dare ‘put.’
You said, "Is he [the son of perdition/ANTICHRIST] a called one? Drawn to salvation by the Holy Ghost? I would say NOT."
(Well, I guess that settles it. THE GREAT CARRIE BRADSHAW HAS SPOKEN! Let's all throw away everything we've learned and go home!)
You said that Christ doesn't save the antichrist?
Okay, so let me do a little digging to see if that's true. First, tell me, do you believe that it is the WHOLE WORLD whom Satan deceives? (Rev. 12:9) Or do you believe that Satan only tries to deceive the whole world but in actuality only succeeds in deceiving those of us who believe that Christ is the Savior of the Whole World and came that He might undo the works that the devil has done and will actually succeed?
WHO IS THE SON OF PERDITION/ANTICHRIST AND WILL CHRIST SAVE SUCH A ONE?
1 John 3:8 (King James Version)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil. Well, who committeth sins? Has there ever been one perfect human being, save Jesus Christ, who has NEVER sinned?
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.
Jesus Christ came into the world to do what, Carrie?
1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS; of whom I am chief.
Jesus Christ came to save that which is LOST (Matthew 18:11)
Now, we have scriptures that say that Christ saves sinners (and the whole world sins-save One, Jesus Christ) and that which is lost. And everyone is "lost" at some point in their lives -- and for absolute proof, all one needs to do is take a look around them and the answer will become abundantly clear).
Now, let's not lose our train of thought. We're digging to see who Christ saves and if it will include the "son of perdition" is, remember?
What does the word "lost" mean? The Greek word appolumi" is defined as "lost." And I think it's safe to say that most of the world is lost because of sin.
Now, are you sitting down? You'll want to be seated for this next part.
The Greek word "appolumi" also means d-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d. Remember the roof of the word "perdition" was "destroy"? Are you starting to see it? Imagine that. Christ saves those which are appolumi (lost/destroyed/the sons of perdition).
You said referring to the son of perdition that, "That would be THE ANTICHRIST to come."
Okay, great. But let's not stop there as 2 Pet. 1:20 says, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (A better translation says "is of its OWN interpretation" because you need a double (spiritual/scriptural) witness, okay? So, what does John have to say about "THE" antichrist? Let's have a looksie:
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
It was the last time 2000 years ago, Carrie, and there were how MANY antichrists back then. And who were these "antichrists," Carrie?
vs. 19 They [the MANY antichrists] went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
Would it be safe to say that they have FALLEN AWAY? Are sinners? Are "lost"? Are headed for "destruction"?
Now, whom does Christ save? Answer: Sinners. Those which are lost (destroyed).
But YOU, Carrie the Great, say, that there are not many but only a "few" who who are deceived and point out Judas, whereas John said that as much as 2000 years ago in the beginning of the "christian" church that there were MANY antichrists. The church has only grown larger since that time and has anything changed? Yes, it's gotten WORSE. Do a search for molestation + Catholic church, and see what kind of hits you get.
You point out Judas, but you artfully leave out those Pharisees who were behind Judas prodding him along, and all those who called for the death of Jesus as opposed to Barabas'.
JUST AS THE MANY TODAY CHOOSE A CRIMINAL INSTEAD OF THE INNOCENT PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. It is only a few who would never call for Barabus.
My Answer to Gina
Jesus Christ is ALL POWERFUL. He will judge both the living and the dead. He wills that all who believe will enter into life and all who reject the truth will enter into damnation. His will WILL be done.
You’ve been there; done that? Then, you are one who has turned away from the truth and accumulated a teacher according to your OWN DESIRES. 2 Tim 4:3 states, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.” Do you see free will here? I surely do.
You say, “the whole world of Christiandom” ~ Hey, does that indicate there’s more to the whole world than Christiandom? Do you see what you just did? Clarified what the Bible means by "whole world". You really need to understand the word “world” is referring to unbelievers, just like the word “Gentile” did to the Jews. How are unbelievers saved? By faith (believing, which is the Greek word pisteuo, which means believe, put in trust with. From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
This word “believe” is used in John 3:16. Let’s just quote it for a moment: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” Why put a criteria of "whoever believes in Him" if the whole world is saved?
Do you understand that in the statement, “God so loved the world” that “loved” is the Greek word agapao (to love in a social, moral sense)? Agapao is the verb of the noun agape (charity). We associate charity with giving. God has given His love freely to the whole world by shedding His blood on the cross for their sins (Acts 20:28). The way God loves His children (those saved by His grace through faith) is agape and phileo (brotherly, friendship).John 15:13 is the example of agape and phileo love: “Greater love [agape] has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” So, if the whole world were the friends of God, why would James say in 4:4, “You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” When we “love” our enemies, it is with the social, moral, charitable love that Jesus had for all of us when He died for us. Yet, while He provided the Way of salvation for everyone (for He is no respecter of persons), those who reject that Way of salvation by grace through faith, will be judged and are not under His grace. Loving our enemies does not mean they are not enemies of the cross (Phil 3:18-19).
Check this out about "free will". Hebrew 10:26 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" The blood of Jesus covers the sins of those who live by faith in Him. If we refuse this gospel, we have no forgiveness of sins, not now ~ not ever.
“Many are called” tells you that the Holy Spirit will call many (those who respond). In fact, this calling is the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN unto Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:32), not when we are lifted up from the earth. Those who accept this drawing are "the called". The "called" are not the “sons of perdition” as Roy claimed. Have you looked up the meaning of the word “called”? It is from the same as klesis; invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint -- called. Who returns with Christ in Rev 17:14? The “called, the chosen and the faithful”. “Called” is not a negative, as Roy believes (I assume he gets this from L. Ray Smith?).
Look up “sons of perdition” in the Bible, and you will NOT find it. This would be interpreted the “sons of the lost” or the "sons of the destroyed". You will only find “son of perdition” in the Bible. All who follow THE Antichrist, even the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. So, understand that not all of God’s creation are children of God. They must be “born again” (John 3:7). If you read about Judas, the Bible says “Satan entered into him” (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). He was a “son of perdition”. Likewise, Satan empowers the Antichrist (the son of perdition) – Rev 13:4, and all who are blinded by Satan (the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4) will follow after him, headed to the same fate. The coming Antichrist is the beast that comes up out of the abyss (bottomless pit, aka “the deepest abyss of Hades”) - Rev 11:7. Notice the king (angel) of the abyss is named Apollyon (Rev 9:11), a destroying angel. Just as fallen agels were called "sons of God" in Gen 6:2, so this fallen angel is called the "son of perdition".
Did I say only a few are deceived? Never did I say that. In fact, the majority of mankind is headed for destruction. Consider that Jesus was asked if just a few were being saved and He confirmed this as the truth in Luke 13:23. He said that many will seek to enter and NOT BE ABLE TO. He said, “The gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” There is only one narrow gate (door), and that is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (John 10:7-9). The “many” headed to destruction are NOT the “many called”. This should confirm to you that not ALL will be saved. The Word says that it will be as it was in the days of Noah when Christ returns. How many were saved in Noah's day? EIGHT.
The fact that you read that Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD points out how deceived you are in your interpretation. This would mean the whole "unsaved" world. For, Jesus said in Mat 24:24, “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect.” So, the elect will be challenged, but not deceived.
We are all dead in our trespasses and sins prior to salvation. Only those who receive the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ have life. When one is “born again”, we can put that statement in the past-tense (We ‘were’ dead in our trespasses and sins). If anyone rejects the gift of salvation, He is none of His (Rom 8:9) and remains in his sins. Read Ephesians 2 in its entirety. You will see that Paul is stating “we (Paul, a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, along with the saved Gentiles at Ephesus) WERE dead in our trespasses and sins.” He’s speaking to believers.
Why did Paul even bring the message to the Gentiles in the first place? Acts 18:6 tells us, “But when THEY [Jews] RESISTED and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, ‘Your blood be ON YOUR OWN HEADS! I am clean. From now on I WILL go to the Gentiles." Do you realize this means he held them responsible for their own resistance? If the Jews had no free will, he wouldn’t have said such a thing. Did Paul have a free will to go to the Gentiles? He said, "I WILL". If you want to play word games, let's play.
Gina, a lot more is covered in a couple more of my hubs called Refute of Salvation For All Doctrine and SALVATION: Unless God DRAG Us? It will take you hours to read all the comments and responses, for I’ve been laboring with Universalists now for over a year.
May God shine His light upon all who are feeling drawn unto salvation this day.
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