Response to Gina: L. Ray Smith Followers

Gina Wrote (And I Quote):

Hey, Carrie.

I see you have something against the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I think it's amazing whenever I come across Christians who say that they believe that Jesus Christ is so powerful, but they don't really believe it. And, yet, those who believe it are the one's who need help, who need saving -- in order that we can become like you -- the many -- who believe that Christ is an complete and utter failure? Been there. Done that.

See, the whole world of Christendom believes that Christ is able to save people like you (who aren't so bad), but He's not able to save the "sons of perdition."

You said to Roy,

"You quoted 2 Thes 2:3, but neglect to get the clarification as to who the son of perdition is in verses 4- 8: “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God… Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.”

Well, let's see if we can figure out who the son of perdition is, Miss Carrie, shall we? But first, let's peek at the origin of the word "perdition":

ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French perdiciun, from ecclesiastical Latin perditio(n-), from Latin perdere ‘destroy,’ from per- ‘completely, to destruction’ + the base of dare ‘put.’

You said, "Is he [the son of perdition/ANTICHRIST] a called one? Drawn to salvation by the Holy Ghost? I would say NOT."

(Well, I guess that settles it. THE GREAT CARRIE BRADSHAW HAS SPOKEN! Let's all throw away everything we've learned and go home!)

You said that Christ doesn't save the antichrist?

Okay, so let me do a little digging to see if that's true. First, tell me, do you believe that it is the WHOLE WORLD whom Satan deceives? (Rev. 12:9) Or do you believe that Satan only tries to deceive the whole world but in actuality only succeeds in deceiving those of us who believe that Christ is the Savior of the Whole World and came that He might undo the works that the devil has done and will actually succeed?

WHO IS THE SON OF PERDITION/ANTICHRIST AND WILL CHRIST SAVE SUCH A ONE?

1 John 3:8 (King James Version)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil. Well, who committeth sins? Has there ever been one perfect human being, save Jesus Christ, who has NEVER sinned?

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.

Jesus Christ came into the world to do what, Carrie?

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS; of whom I am chief.

Jesus Christ came to save that which is LOST (Matthew 18:11)

Now, we have scriptures that say that Christ saves sinners (and the whole world sins-save One, Jesus Christ) and that which is lost. And everyone is "lost" at some point in their lives -- and for absolute proof, all one needs to do is take a look around them and the answer will become abundantly clear).

Now, let's not lose our train of thought. We're digging to see who Christ saves and if it will include the "son of perdition" is, remember?

What does the word "lost" mean? The Greek word appolumi" is defined as "lost." And I think it's safe to say that most of the world is lost because of sin.

Now, are you sitting down? You'll want to be seated for this next part.

The Greek word "appolumi" also means d-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d. Remember the roof of the word "perdition" was "destroy"? Are you starting to see it? Imagine that. Christ saves those which are appolumi (lost/destroyed/the sons of perdition).

You said referring to the son of perdition that, "That would be THE ANTICHRIST to come."

Okay, great. But let's not stop there as 2 Pet. 1:20 says, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (A better translation says "is of its OWN interpretation" because you need a double (spiritual/scriptural) witness, okay? So, what does John have to say about "THE" antichrist? Let's have a looksie:

1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

It was the last time 2000 years ago, Carrie, and there were how MANY antichrists back then. And who were these "antichrists," Carrie?

vs. 19 They [the MANY antichrists] went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Would it be safe to say that they have FALLEN AWAY? Are sinners? Are "lost"? Are headed for "destruction"?

Now, whom does Christ save? Answer: Sinners. Those which are lost (destroyed).

But YOU, Carrie the Great, say, that there are not many but only a "few" who who are deceived and point out Judas, whereas John said that as much as 2000 years ago in the beginning of the "christian" church that there were MANY antichrists. The church has only grown larger since that time and has anything changed? Yes, it's gotten WORSE. Do a search for molestation + Catholic church, and see what kind of hits you get.

You point out Judas, but you artfully leave out those Pharisees who were behind Judas prodding him along, and all those who called for the death of Jesus as opposed to Barabas'.

JUST AS THE MANY TODAY CHOOSE A CRIMINAL INSTEAD OF THE INNOCENT PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. It is only a few who would never call for Barabus.

My Answer to Gina

Gina,

Jesus Christ is ALL POWERFUL. He will judge both the living and the dead. He wills that all who believe will enter into life and all who reject the truth will enter into damnation. His will WILL be done.

You’ve been there; done that? Then, you are one who has turned away from the truth and accumulated a teacher according to your OWN DESIRES. 2 Tim 4:3 states, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.” Do you see free will here? I surely do.

You say, “the whole world of Christiandom” ~ Hey, does that indicate there’s more to the whole world than Christiandom? Do you see what you just did? Clarified what the Bible means by "whole world". You really need to understand the word “world” is referring to unbelievers, just like the word “Gentile” did to the Jews. How are unbelievers saved? By faith (believing, which is the Greek word pisteuo, which means believe, put in trust with. From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This word “believe” is used in John 3:16. Let’s just quote it for a moment: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” Why put a criteria of "whoever believes in Him" if the whole world is saved?

Do you understand that in the statement, “God so loved the world” that “loved” is the Greek word agapao (to love in a social, moral sense)? Agapao is the verb of the noun agape (charity). We associate charity with giving. God has given His love freely to the whole world by shedding His blood on the cross for their sins (Acts 20:28). The way God loves His children (those saved by His grace through faith) is agape and phileo (brotherly, friendship).John 15:13 is the example of agape and phileo love: “Greater love [agape] has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” So, if the whole world were the friends of God, why would James say in 4:4, “You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” When we “love” our enemies, it is with the social, moral, charitable love that Jesus had for all of us when He died for us. Yet, while He provided the Way of salvation for everyone (for He is no respecter of persons), those who reject that Way of salvation by grace through faith, will be judged and are not under His grace. Loving our enemies does not mean they are not enemies of the cross (Phil 3:18-19).

Check this out about "free will". Hebrew 10:26 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" The blood of Jesus covers the sins of those who live by faith in Him. If we refuse this gospel, we have no forgiveness of sins, not now ~ not ever.

“Many are called” tells you that the Holy Spirit will call many (those who respond). In fact, this calling is the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN unto Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:32), not when we are lifted up from the earth. Those who accept this drawing are "the called". The "called" are not the “sons of perdition” as Roy claimed. Have you looked up the meaning of the word “called”? It is from the same as klesis; invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint -- called. Who returns with Christ in Rev 17:14? The “called, the chosen and the faithful”. “Called” is not a negative, as Roy believes (I assume he gets this from L. Ray Smith?).

Look up “sons of perdition” in the Bible, and you will NOT find it. This would be interpreted the “sons of the lost” or the "sons of the destroyed". You will only find “son of perdition” in the Bible. All who follow THE Antichrist, even the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. So, understand that not all of God’s creation are children of God. They must be “born again” (John 3:7). If you read about Judas, the Bible says “Satan entered into him” (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). He was a “son of perdition”. Likewise, Satan empowers the Antichrist (the son of perdition) – Rev 13:4, and all who are blinded by Satan (the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4) will follow after him, headed to the same fate. The coming Antichrist is the beast that comes up out of the abyss (bottomless pit, aka “the deepest abyss of Hades”) - Rev 11:7. Notice the king (angel) of the abyss is named Apollyon (Rev 9:11), a destroying angel. Just as fallen agels were called "sons of God" in Gen 6:2, so this fallen angel is called the "son of perdition".

Did I say only a few are deceived? Never did I say that. In fact, the majority of mankind is headed for destruction. Consider that Jesus was asked if just a few were being saved and He confirmed this as the truth in Luke 13:23. He said that many will seek to enter and NOT BE ABLE TO. He said, “The gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” There is only one narrow gate (door), and that is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (John 10:7-9). The “many” headed to destruction are NOT the “many called”. This should confirm to you that not ALL will be saved. The Word says that it will be as it was in the days of Noah when Christ returns. How many were saved in Noah's day? EIGHT.

The fact that you read that Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD points out how deceived you are in your interpretation. This would mean the whole "unsaved" world. For, Jesus said in Mat 24:24, “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect.” So, the elect will be challenged, but not deceived.

We are all dead in our trespasses and sins prior to salvation. Only those who receive the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ have life. When one is “born again”, we can put that statement in the past-tense (We ‘were’ dead in our trespasses and sins). If anyone rejects the gift of salvation, He is none of His (Rom 8:9) and remains in his sins. Read Ephesians 2 in its entirety. You will see that Paul is stating “we (Paul, a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, along with the saved Gentiles at Ephesus) WERE dead in our trespasses and sins.” He’s speaking to believers.

Why did Paul even bring the message to the Gentiles in the first place? Acts 18:6 tells us, “But when THEY [Jews] RESISTED and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, ‘Your blood be ON YOUR OWN HEADS! I am clean. From now on I WILL go to the Gentiles." Do you realize this means he held them responsible for their own resistance? If the Jews had no free will, he wouldn’t have said such a thing. Did Paul have a free will to go to the Gentiles? He said, "I WILL". If you want to play word games, let's play.

Gina, a lot more is covered in a couple more of my hubs called Refute of Salvation For All Doctrine and SALVATION: Unless God DRAG Us? It will take you hours to read all the comments and responses, for I’ve been laboring with Universalists now for over a year.

May God shine His light upon all who are feeling drawn unto salvation this day.

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57 comments

Gina 6 years ago

You want to play with words? Isn't that twisting the truth? Why would you want to invite me to twist the truth, Carrie?

I see that what really is at the heart of your answer is that you have a problem with the fact that no one possesses free will. You're convinced

God gave man a "free" will. Well, if people have "free will," why then must God save sinners? Why can't we just free will ourselves out of sinning/destruction/being deceived? I mean, you're here telling me that we have free will, but even YOU don't believe it, because if you did you wouldn't be sitting there typing words that are designed to MANIPULATE the reader into believing that they must believe and do them in order to be saved! If I have a "free" will, then what makes you think that you can manipulate it? If it's free, it can't be manipulated!

Go learn what "free" means and then go look up the word "manipulate." Your arguments are silly. But that is to be expected, because when most Christians hear that God will save all, they get this picture in their minds of "heaven" (some physical place) being filled with all kinds of wicked people. And nothing could be further from the truth.

How, Carrie, would most being lost bring glory to God?

Let's go through your "answer" bit by bit. This might take you a couple of hours to read.

My [Carrie's] Answer to Gina

Gina,

Jesus Christ is ALL POWERFUL.

[COMMENT: But you don't believe it.]

He will judge both the living and the dead. He wills that all who believe will enter into life and all who reject the truth will enter into damnation. His will WILL be done.

[COMMENT: BUT GOD CAN'T MAKE ANYONE BELIEVE? Is that what you're saying?]

You’ve been there; done that? Then, you are one who has turned away from the truth and accumulated a teacher according to your OWN DESIRES. 2 Tim 4:3 states, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.” Do you see free will here? I surely do.

[COMMENT: You see free will because you actually want to stand before God and say, "Look at all I have done for you of my own "free" will?" You think God's going to go for that, Carrie? What do have that you have not been given, Carrie? You have no desire for the truth and that is why you see free will. You want to place the burden of salvation squarely on the shoulders of those who can't POSSIBLY SAVE THEMSELVES. Do you hate your enemies that much? I have to say, I just find it absolutely amazing when Christians accuse me of having "itching ears" and not listening to "sound doctrine," all because I refuse to believe the evil, twisted, SICK doctrine of demons of a literal eternal lake of fire and damnation. You call that SOUND? Are you nuts? Just asking.]

You say, “the whole world of Christiandom” ~ Hey, does that indicate there’s more to the whole world than Christiandom?

[COMMENT: Yes! God is not CALLING every one at this time.]

Do you see what you just did? Clarified what the Bible means by "whole world". You really need to understand the word “world” is referring to unbelievers,

[COMMENT: But YOU, Carrie, are an unbeliever! You DON'T believe that Christ will save the whole world. 1 Timothy 4:10 says: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe." Next, you'll be twisting that to say that God only meant to save all "men" and not all mankind -- which would include everyone.]

just like the word “Gentile” did to the Jews. How are unbelievers saved? By faith

[COMMENT: No, they're not saved by faith, not according to you, Carrie. They're saved by their own "free will," according to you.]

(believing, which is the Greek word pisteuo, which means believe, put in trust with. From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This word “believe” is used in John 3:16. Let’s just quote it for a moment: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” Why put a criteria of "whoever believes in Him" if the whole world is saved?

[COMMENT: You have a problem with that scripture because you don't see that CHRIST IS ABLE TO CAUSE ANYONE TO BELIEVE AND BE SAVED since, get ready for it, here it comes: Heb. 12:2 "Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith [belief]. Well, if He's the Author and Finisher of our faith, how did that happen, seeing how YOU have free will? You can't claim belief all on your own "free" will when it is Jesus Who is the Author and the FINISHER of that faith.]

Do you understand that in the statement, “God so loved the world” that “loved” is the Greek word agapao (to love in a social, moral sense)? The way God loves His children (those saved by His grace through faith) is agape (charity). They are not the same love. John 15:13 is the example of agape love: “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” So, if the whole world were the friends of God, why would James say in 4:4, “You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” When we “love” our enemies, it is the word agapao, not agape. Loving them does not mean they are not enemies of the cross (Phil 3:18-19).

[COMMENT: You're all over the place, Carrie. I can tell that you have been reading Ray's articles, because you're learning something.]

“Many are called” tells you that the Holy Spirit will call many (those who respond). In fact, this calling is the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN unto Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:32), not when we are lifted up from the earth. Those who accept this drawing are "the called". The "called" are not the “sons of perdition” as Roy claimed. Have you looked up the meaning of the word “called”? It is from the same as klesis; invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint -- called. Who returns with Christ in Rev 17:14? The “called, the chosen and the faithful”. “Called” is not a negative, as you’ve been taught.

[COMMENT: There are the called and there are the called AND the chosen. That you and MANY LIKE YOU are being and have been called, isn't a negative at all. I don't know what you are talking about when you say being called is a negative "like you've been taught." BEEN TAUGHT? EXCUSE ME, CARRIE, but I, too, used to believe everything you currently believe: Namely, that Jesus Christ will only save a "few".]

Look up “sons of perdition” in the Bible, and you will NOT find it. This would be interpreted the “sons of the lost” or the "sons of the destroyed". You will only find “son of perdition” in the Bible.

[COMMENT: Get a grip, Carrie. That verse isn't speaking of one, single solitary person. Have you completely forgotten what you wrote in your last post? You even said that the son of perdition was the ANTICHRIST and I showed you how John said there are MANY ANTICHRISTS. ]

All who follow THE Antichrist, even the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

[COMMENT: And Christ came to save that which is destroyed/lost!]

So, understand that not all of God’s creation of children of God.

[COMMENT: NO KIDDING!]

They must be “born again” (John 3:7).

[COMMENT: NO KIDDING.]

If you read about Judas, the Bible says “Satan entered into him” (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). He was a “son of perdition”. Likewise, Satan empowers the Antichrist (the son of perdition) – Rev 13:4, and all who are blinded by Satan (the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4) will follow after him, headed to the same fate. The coming Antichrist is the beast that comes up out of the abyss (bottomless pit, aka “the deepest abyss of Hades”) - Rev 11:7.

[COMMENT: So by YOUR amazing powers o


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Gina, we'll just take your COMMENTS (responses) above and address them here:

L. Ray Smith plays with words. He twists the truth.

I have given proof that man has free will. Read the scriptures I gave you again. However, he will do the will of whom he CHOOSES...either the will of his father, the devil or the will of his Father, God. I do the will of my Father, God. This is confirmed in Romans 6:16 "Do you not know that WHEN YOU PRESENT YOURSELVES to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one WHOM YOU OBEY, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

Love does not force its own way (1 Cor 13:5). God forces no one to get saved.

The doctrine of hell is sound. You turned away from sound doctrine to suit your itching ears.

You said, "God is not calling everyone at this time." What do you have to say to Acts 17:30? "God is NOW declaring to men that ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE should repent." He's not only calling, He's declaring (commanding)! When? NOW!

Regarding 1 Tim 4:10, this is saying Jesus Christ made the propitiation for ALL SINNERS, but only those who believe are saved.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17). Look at Acts 10:44, that while Peter was yet speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon the crowd who believed and were baptized that day. We are saved by grace through FAITH, not FIRE.

The Book of Hebrews is addressing believers who were being persecuted for Christ, turning from the Old Covenant of the Law. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of "our FAITH". Unbelievers do not have faith; if they did, they would be saved.

If Ray teaches about agapao and agape love, his followers need to quit using God's love as a guarantee of salvation for the whole world.

There are the called, the chosen and the faithful. Roy believed the called were the sons of perdition. He also reads and follows L. Ray Smith, so I assumed this to be L. Ray's teaching. I'm glad you don't believe this.

We are or were (depending on salvation) on the road to destruction (lost). Jesus came to save all, but not all will be saved. He is no respecter of persons and each person has the choice to follow the will of the devil or call upon the Name of the Lord and be saved. Jesus says He stands at the door and knocks. Why doesn't He just barge right in? Man has to open the door to his heart. (Rev 3:20)

Your comment was obviously too long, so you will need to continue in your next one.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Gina, you can spout all the ad-hominem you want, but it won’t be posted here. I will and have addressed the following in my other hubs that I invited you to read, but of course, you have the choice, the will, to read or not.

You said, “Even now, in this very day and age, there are people in villages, in jungles, who have never even HEARD the name Jesus Christ and will go to their graves not having heard His name.”

I say, since the first Man was created, all have heard about God, and God says in His Word that every man has an innate knowledge of Him (Rom 1:20). The Old Covenant is what it is, a COVENANT. People were saved according to that covenant. We now have a New Covenant, whereby we must be saved according to the ordinance given ~ to accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior.

Jesus said in John 15:22, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.” God knows who loves Him. Those who love God and have never heard the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ remain under the Old Covenant. He judges the hearts of man.

We are not saved through fiery trials, but by the blood of the Lamb. Your turning from this truth crucifies to yourself the Son of God and puts Him to open shame. The Bible says so in Heb 6:6.

Every knee bowing does not mean everyone is saved. The demons also believed and shudder. They confessed who Jesus was:

James 2:19 “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.”

Mark 5:7 “And shouting with a loud voice, he [demon] said, ‘What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!’" Oh! He’s afraid of being tormented! However, his torment in the Lake of Fire has an appointed time, as shown in Mat 8:29: “And they [demons] cried out, saying, ‘What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?’"


aka-dj profile image

aka-dj 6 years ago from Australia

The mind boggles when one sees the growing number of "doctrines" that are emerging these days. I love your sound scriptural responses to this heretical interpretation of the true salvation message.

I shake my head in utter amazement at how people can take straight foreward, unambiguous scripture and mess them up so badly.

Keep up with the good work you are doing.

Blessings.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

aka-dj ~ I'm so thankful you stand with me; that you can see what I see! I, too am amazed at this phenomenal twisting of scripture. We can literally "see" Satan at work because we have the eyes to "see". It surely makes me thankful our Lord is keeping us safe and sound, yet I am continually burdened for those who are greatly deceived, refusing to love the truth. One thing's for sure, "if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't". Truth doesn't tickle the ears; that should be a sign unto them. God bless you, brother. I so appreciate your supportive comment.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Hi Carrie,

Why do you only post letters you think you have answered correctly ? It is quite clear you are pursuing a following and not the truth. You do not respond to anything you can not answer. You claim that the penalty for sins is to burn in hell forever and you defend this. If this is what you believe than believe it. I worship a much different God. I also do not feel comfortable in believing things I do not understand, especially with all the teachings of deception and commands to prove all things. If this is true about our penalty than how did Jesus atone for our sins ? I will never understand how Jesus accomplished atonement from your assertion that the penalty for sins is to burn in hell forever.

The Bible says the penalty for our sins is death.

The Bible says Jesus died for our sins.

Now you come along and teach the penalty for sins is to burn in hell forever. If this is the definition of death than please explain to me when Jesus burned in hell forever. The bible says he paid for our sins by dying. If the penaly is not death or if death means to burn in hell forever than when or where do we read that Jesus paid for the sins of the world by burning in hell forever!!

This is basic stuff! Can you really not see the contradiction here ? This is why I will never believe this evil doctrine. It is full of things that contradict. Jesus paid the penalty by dying ! Now you say my penalty is to go to hell forever ? But this never happen to Jesus so OBVIOUSLY THE PENALTY IS DEATH NOT BURNING IN HELL FOREVER ! IS THIS HARD ?

I crushed your doctrine and you refused to post it. You will give account to God for our exchange and he will ask you why you believe satan is stronger than He is. You quote Eph 2:8 on your hub over and over and you do not even believe it is true. You believe that our faith is of ourselves. You throw this scripture under the bus all through your arguments. Its much easier for you to do that than repent and admit you missed such easy scriptural truths. If you truly believed Eph 2:8 from the bottom of your heart you would see what I see. But the problem is you do not really believe this verse is true.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians22067 ~ If you read all my hubs about Universalism, they are clear and refute this false doctrine thoroughly. To reject your comments does not mean I am not answering due to not having an answer. You haven't "crushed" anything! No ~ I don't have the answer you WANT; I have the TRUTH. I'm not going to continue debates with you and others, as I have enough material in the HubPages comments alone over the past year to write a 500-page book!! Did you even read all of my applicable hubs and comments, too?

NOW FOR YOUR ANSWER: Jesus was sinless. Jesus innocently paid the price for all sin, but His blood only atones for those who believe. He was not deserving of Hell, for He was our Salvation. Hell is not an atonement for sin. That’s where you are twisted. Hell is a permanent consequence. This is why Jesus didn’t burn in Hell, then come out. It's the "Hotel California" ~ you check in and you never leave. If our simply dying paid the price for our own sin, we wouldn't have needed a sinless sacrifice. We are unclean!! "The wages of sin is death" means spiritual death. We can assume Adam and Eve were meant to live forever, but being made of dust of the earth would indicate corruptibility. Every living thing on the earth dies.

God said in His Word that He will draw ALL men unto Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:32). However, when that drawing occurs, each one drawn must decide to accept or reject Him. The penalty for rejecting the drawing of Christ is HELL.

As I said, Christ’s shed blood only covers ALL who receive Him and live under the New Covenant. Even those who cling onto the Old Covenant nullify the New (atonement through Christ’s shed blood). Gal 2:22 “I do not NULLIFY the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Likewise, if righteousness comes through works or the Lake of Fire, Christ died needlessly!! His sacrifice is made NULL AND VOID!

Consider the following scriptures that prove the shed blood of Christ does not cover ALL who reject Him:

Isa 53:12 “and He bare the sin of MANY”

Mat 20:28 “and to give His life a ransom for MANY."

Mat 26:28 “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins.

John 1:12 "But as MANY as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

Heb 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of MANY”

The Bible does NOT contradict itself.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Unfortunately you contradict the bible and me . Where in that short letter did you find the ability to imply what you said about me ? You claimed I believe that my own death as a sinner has the ability to atone for my sins. You tell me that I am twisted for believing that hell atones for sins . I honestly believe you are either a flat out liar or one step above illiterate. You can not imply what you said about my beliefs from what I wrote unless you just made it up or you do have trouble reading. This is why you twist statements. You have nothing so you lie and make arguments out of nothing to get a word in. Jesus Christ dying for my sins is what atones for my sins. Jesus DIED for us to atone for sin as a sinless sacrifice so God raised Him from the dead! This is what the bible teaches! This is what I believe ! Now that we cleared that up lets answer the question instead of going all over the place and avoiding them like you love to do.

Lets get back to the question you deflected.

If our penalty for sins is to burn in hell forever than for Jesus to pay atonement for our sins he would have to burn in hell forever ! The bible does not say anything so foolish anywhere! Our penalty for sin is death Jesus paid the atonement by dying for us. DEATH ! HE DIED FOR US ! He did not burn in hell for us! So obviously you are twisted in believing He atoned for our penalty by dying for us but than out of the other side of your face tell us our penalty is to burn in hell forever. Your beliefs are a total contradiction!!

You believe that Jesus atoned for your sins ? DO YOU NOT ? Of course you do ! Now how did Jesus atone FOR YOUR SINS ? This question mark is much bigger than it appears. What did Jesus do for you ? Did he burn in hell for you ? No of course not ! He died for you because this is your penalty, DEATH !

Answer the question, Where do we read that Jesus atoned our penalty of burning in hell forever by burning in hell forever ?

ITS DEATH OUR PENALTY IS DEATH !!!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians, let me ask you something. Do you believe ALL will be saved? I believe you do. And, do you believe some will be saved AFTER physical death? I believe you do. And, do you believe the Lake of Fire purifies, making one worthy of salvation? I believe you do. If I'm wrong, please clarify. If you believe the three statements above, then it is conclusive you must believe man can atone for his own sin.

My only contradiction is with your beliefs. Jesus is GOD Himself, and is called the Lamb of God because He shed His holy blood for the sins of those who believe in Him. He had no sin and was not sentenced to Hell. Likewise, those who believe in Him will only die once (physically) and be raised to life as He was. They also will not experience Hell because through Him, they are without sin.

Are you familiar with Jewish Law? They had to slay a lamb once a year, for it was by its blood they were passed over by the death angel in Egypt, and could pass over their sins until the Messiah should come. The Bible is clear about Hell. You can choose not to believe in it. If you're saved you have no worries, but you shouldn't help lead others to Hell by telling them they can just put off salvation until after death, when God will force them to love Him through the Lake of Fire. Now, THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

What is your purpose for being here? You're not convincing me of anything. If I cannot help you, it's time for you to move on.


galatians22067@yahoo.com 6 years ago

Yes, Yes and the 3rd question is NO !!! Jesus Christs atoning sacrifice is what makes us worthy of salvation. The lake of fire is judgement which brings them to a knowledge of the truth ! What is the truth ? That Jesus Christ atoned for our sins ! Disbelief does not altar Christs work! He died for the sins of the whole world. This is true. It does not become false because someone does not believe it is true.

Well is it true or not ? Does it stop snowing because I do not believe it is snowing ?

If you believe than you excersise faith and are being saved by grace through faith. You are justified by these actions. Its called repenting. An unbeliever is not justified he is still unrepented and stands dead in trespasses and sins and is condemned to judgement. THE WRATH OF GOD THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Does this mean Christ did not die for them ? If that were true than there is nothing for me to ask an unbeliever to believe in ! He saved us before the world began and this includes unbelievers. If this only includes believers than there is nothing to ask an unbeliever to believe in! He either died for all of our sins before the world began or he did not. It does not suddenly become false because someone claims he did not.

Again you misquote me. I am not telling anyone they should not repent and trust in God now because they can just do it later. When have ever said such a ridiculous statement ? I just believe the scriptures that tell us that God is sovereign and teach us this is all on his watch not ours.

The two biggest misunderstandings of yours is the difference between the first and second (just/unjust) resurrections and Rom 4:25. There is a huge difference between the kingdom (ruling and reigning with Christ for the millenium) and obtaining salvation! There is a huge difference between offences and justification. Christ was delivered for the offences of the whole world but not all are justified. You are only justified by repenting. This is only done by grace through faith and THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELF! This point destroys the eternal hell doctrine. Mass numbers of "christians" quote this scripture but hardly any believe its true. What takes us from none are seeking out God to having faith ? Ourselves ? Give me a break ! Its Christ ! I give all the glory to Christ for saving us ! I do not feel that somehow I defied the law of sin and death and choose God all on my own. You do not even give God total credit for saving you . You believe you must perform a work! It depends on you and me and our ability to believe is what you teach. YOU DO NOT BELIEVE EPH 2:8!! You claim you do but you trample this scripture under your feet when pressed on your doctrine. You worship and serve the creature more than the creator and turn the truth of Christs work into a lie. Rom 1:25.

Christ will not stop reigning until He has subjected everything to himself. Heb 2:8,1Cor15:28.

The same way all is subdued to Christ is the same way Christ is subjected to the Father . Its the same word! Complete and total submission to Gods will ! We can show favour to the wicked and pray for them and do good to those who use us and persucate us and they will never learn righteousness but God has appointed a day when he shall Judge the world in righteousness and when this happens the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness!!

Ish 26:9,10.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Galatians, I don't have time tonight to answer your lengthy comment (why I'm not actively pursuing those of your doctrine, for I may be casting pearls) ~~ however, if you want to HEAR the truth, and have 35 minutes, I pray this video will OPEN YOUR EYES. It's called "Hell's Best Kept Secret".

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/watchepisodes.shtml

If you don't listen, you will miss the blessing. I pray any and all readers listen to this. I just heard it tonight and maybe it was for YOU. I was thoroughly blessed. I pray you are, too.


aka-dj profile image

aka-dj 6 years ago from Australia

Just a point of clarification, if I may.

Hell and the lake of fire are not one and the same thing.

It is also called the SECOND DEATH. (Rev 20;14)

Death, meaning "separation from life (God)".


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

aka-dj ~ Here is my inductive Bible study on Hell: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/HELL-Sheow...

Basically, Sheol/Hades is the same, the deepest abyss of which is the Greek word Tartaroo. This is the current Hell. Geenna appears to be the second death, the Lake of Fire ~ which does not show up until after the millennial reign of Christ. It is the final Hell. Hell is definitely is separation from God; however, the Bible clearly describes it as a place of torment, a place that is inescapable once there.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Galatians,

Do you know WHEN the Lake of Fire judgment occurs? Let me answer that for you. It’s AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH, and AFTER the millennial reign of Christ. It is the FINAL JUDGMENT, the second death. Those in Christ prior to physical death will not face the second death. This judgment is not purposed to bring people to a “knowledge of the truth”; it will be too late. The knowledge of the truth has been around since Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, Who was resurrected from the dead. The Holy Spirit is Who leads us into the knowledge of the truth, not the Lake of Fire. Anyone can receive the Holy Spirit when s/he receives the Word of God by faith.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but His atonement is nullified to those who do not believe. They are without excuse, the Word says (John 15:22; Rom 1:20). Everyone has the opportunity for salvation NOW (Acts 17:30). This is why we share the gospel with them. The gospel must be preached to all the ends of the earth before Christ returns. All will be held accountable. It’s good you don’t tell people to put off salvation to wait for some “forcing or dragging” by God, which will occur after physical death anyhow ~ so why subject yourself to submission to Christ, if you can put it off? That’s the psychology of the Universalist doctrine.

The first resurrection is for believers who will never experience Hell. The second resurrection (post-millennial reign) is of those who are unsaved, facing the second death. It is not outlined in the Bible as to anyone being saved during the millennial reign. The Book of Life is present at the final judgment, so I can only assume some people will get saved during the millennial reign. However, the “books” are also there and Revelation 20:10-15 states that those whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are. By then, Satan will be there as well.

You said, “What takes us from none are seeking out God to having faith ? Ourselves ? Give me a break ! Its Christ !” Excuse me, but Hebrews 11:6 states, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” And how do we obtain faith? Rom 10:17 tells us, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” It certainly doesn’t come by fire. Is the Word of God preached today? Absolutely. How does God draw ALL men unto Himself? By hearing the Word of God. Acts 10:44 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.” So, how in the world you think I don’t believe in Eph 2:8 is beyond me.

Do we choose? Absolutely. Rom 6:16 states, “Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?” Who does the presenting? YOURSELVES.

Does man have a will? What did Jesus pray in the Garden? Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet NOT MY WILL, but Yours be done." This definitely shows that Man has a will that must be submitted to God by faith.

Why do you quote Isaiah 26:9 and 10 but only state what is in verse 9? Verse 10 states, “Though the wicked is shown favor, HE DOES NOT LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.” 11. “O LORD, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it. They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame; Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.” This appears to align with Rev 20:8-9.

I did not post you next comment because you are simply restating that Jesus didn’t go to HELL for our sins ~ I’ve already addressed this.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians, I will post the following from your unposted comment:

You said, "I used to take all the way of the master courses also. I used to believe everything you believe in . Kurt and Ray use the same double talk you now teach on your hub."

My response to you is Hebrews 6:4-6 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them AGAIN TO REPENTANCE, since they AGAIN crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians, I do not have to contend with you. You KNOW that, right? This is HubPages. This is my hub. You can spout all your ad hominem elsewhere. I challenge you to read my other hubs here addressing your doctrinal errors. You have not, and it's obvious. Why would you ask me things I've already addressed in other hubs and comments, IF you had read? That's up to you ~ it's your choice. In a way, I'm rejoicing that you are so rattled. Maybe the Seed of truth is penetrating your veil. I pray so.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

galatians, I have published a hub to answer your lengthy and hostile comment. I happened to have time ~ so, if it ministers to you, great. If not, it may minister to others to keep them from blindness. God loves you and so do I.


aka-dj profile image

aka-dj 6 years ago from Australia

You might want to edit the whole discourse from beginning to end and put it into a book, or report. There's some great material here.

I think it may be very helpful to others to know what this doctrine is, and how to refute it, as you have so patiently and eloquently done here (and on other related hubs.) My goodness, you do have a few of them. Lol. :)


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

aka-dj ~ wow, what a compliment. Thank you! I wonder if God will call me to publish a book refuting Universalism one day. We're still at it and it never ceases to amaze me how vast their deception is. Our Bible fits in one book ~ but their twisted explanations of the scripture would probably take 10 bible-sized books! It's no wonder cults have their own "bible(s)" in addition to the Holy Bible, amen? If this Concordant Literal Translation ever gets released BEWARE. They are re-writing the Bible!!

I so appreciate your kindness, and I do pray these hubs educate Christians of this doctrine of demons so they, His elect, will NOT be DECEIVED. Amen!! God bless you!


afro's mistake profile image

afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

gina apparently said “Even now, in this very day and age, there are people in villages, in jungles, who have never even HEARD the name Jesus Christ and will go to their graves not having heard His name.”

well first of all i'd just like to say that i hate it when people say the bible says such and such without saying the scripture that pertains to it but im gonna have to do this right now. i have forgotten the scripture(forgive me everybody!) but i know the bible says somewhere something along the lines of if people dont know that what their doing is a sin they aren't held accountable for it but as soon as they learn they had better not do it again. so im thinking that as for all those people who have never heard of christ they're kind of like babies who die. they never had a chance to believe in christ or do great works for him but we still believe they are going to heaven. In other words God doesnt have to save the whole world just to explain what happens to all those peoples who've never haerd of him.

I personally think the whole idea of every one being saved is just so people can have an excuse for doing all the bad things they do(because they want to believe they have no free will)


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree with you, afro's mistake (but not God's mistake)! Universalists will be able to stand before God and say, "You made me the way I am, so throw me into that Lake of Fire so I will be saved." This is after they die, of course. God wouldn't be called "long-suffering toward us", if we had no free will. He'd just sit back and know each man has an appointed time to die, go into the Lake of Fire and get saved. No problem. Ridiculous!

Why then does the Bible say "MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE"? Duhhhh?


AlanW45 6 years ago

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

We must be some pretty powerful clay or God is a weak potter???

Who's in charge? Us or God?

:-)


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Keep in mind, the pottery sits in the same house. There will be those who are great in the kingdom of heaven and those who are least. Then, there will be those who don't enter at all. This scripture is often taken out of context ~ you may not be responsible for doing this, but your teachers are, AlanW45. God knows. He loves you!


AlanW45 6 years ago

You lost me with the pottery sits in the same house thing. You surely are not saying that He hardens some believers hearts and they forfeit some rewards in the kingdom?

God hardened Pharoah's heart so he would not let the people go. He calloused Paul's blood people(Israel). Eyes not to be seeing and ears not to hear until the fullness of the gentiles came in. Then He will lift the veil which hides the light of Christ.

So the majority of the jews (Paul's fellow Israelites, not some spiritual Israel/church thing) were blinded by God from seeing Christ. It's not that they wouldn't see, they COULDN'T see. They had no choice. See Romans 11 and 2 Corinthians 4:3&4.

God is working a plan a lot bigger than most see.

For the creation was subjected to vanity, NOT OF IT'S OWN WILL, but by reason of Him who subjected it, in hope. Romans 8:20.

God locks up all in stubbornness that He should be merciful to all. Romans 11:32.

And one of my favorite passages: Isaiah 46:9-11. This one tells it all.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Absolutely nothing can stay God's hand. For who has withstood His intention? Romans 9:19.

God absolutely hides Himself and the gospel of Jesus Christ from some and makes all stubborn. The only ones who believe are those He reveals Himself to.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 11:30.

For a purpose. He want's to show His mercy to all.

It's not time yet. But it will be.

Have a great weekend!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

AlanW45: Ezekiel 31:18 states, "To which among the trees of Eden are you thus equal in glory and greatness? Yet you will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth beneath; you will lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those who were slain by the sword. So is Pharaoh and all his hordes!' declares the Lord GOD."

Hmmm. We see Eden mentioned here, just as we do about the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 48 (a cherub). Then, we can look at Isaiah 14 and see that Lucifer is the king of Babylon. Pay attention, for Pharaoh could very well have been a fallen angel, whom God uses to accomplish His will ~ else, they would be in Tartaroo with the rest of them that fell in the days of Noah.

Not that you would neglect that Pharaoh hardened his own heart in Exodus 8:32, then God says He hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 10:1. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

What does God say in Rom 1:28? "When they did not see fit to acknowlege God ANY LONGER, God gave them over to a reprobate mind" (in this case homosexuality). When people refuse to love the truth so as to be saved, God will allow them to be hardened, deceived, rebrobate and so forth, to seal their condemnation (2 Thes 2:9-12).

To understand Romans 9 and the Potter/clay analogy, you must understand that Paul was speaking to Jews who were familiar with the words of Jeremiah, the prophet, beginning in 18:6:

"Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation-to build and to plant it; is it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good wherewith I said I would benefit them." Man is to repent [to change his mind and behavior], which causes God to repent [to change His mind to destroy them].

If you look at Romans 9:21, the Potter can make pottery for noble use or common use. Jesus died to save the whole world, so does not predestine some for hell without hope of salvation, nor does He force people to enter the Covenant relationship with Him (Calvinism - double predestination). They are as twisted as Universalism.

While God knew the Gentiles would be grafted into the Jews (the First-born 'chosen' nation of Israel), and states their hearts were hardened, He also states an end to the hardening ~ when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. God does not prevent anyone who comes to Him from salvation. Jews were cut off due to disbelief; yet IF THEY do not continue in THEIR unbelief, they will be grafted in again (Rom 11:23). Gentiles are also saved by faith (belief).

You have a great weekend, too!


AlanW45 6 years ago

Thanks for the response! I too, like you, used to fight hard for something that just isn't in scripture. Free will.

We both know that Pharoah was not a fallen angel but a man. As were the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon. It's right there in the text of those passages. The adversary (satan) however has been a murderer, liar and sinner FROM THE BEGINNING. See John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8. It is true that satan and his fallen angels have a special place reserved for them in Tartarus.

Paul tells us that none would choose God of our own accord. So, that means everyone's heart is hardened. Including mine and yours. Only by the Spirit of God are we able to come to have faith. So your "Pharoah hardened his heart first" excuse fails miserably. If God hardened everyone's heart as a result of our hearts first being hard, He'd have to stonewall us all.

Seal their condemnation? You have some scripture for that one? I know of some scripture that says "turn their flesh over to satan that their spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Doesn't sound like He wants to "seal their condemnation". I have no idea where you got that....

Have to go for now, I'll continue later.

Thanks again.

AlanW45


AlanW45 6 years ago

I'll take the potter's comment next. I'm leaving for vacation in the morning and will be gone for 10 days. I may not be able to access the internet where I'm going so be patient with me.

Let's look at what it really says. From the KJV:

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (Paul is in great sorrow because all the jews don't believe Christ is the Messiah)

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (He would trade his salvation if the nation of Israel would believe)

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (The chosen people of God, in whom the oracles of God were entrusted)

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

)Here Carrie, we have a perfect foreshadowing of the grace given to the nations. Do you see that is says "children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" God chooses them before their birth before they had a chance to harden themselves. This is the Word. Not some watered down version passed on by people who heap up teachers to tickle their ears.

Go to any local church and you'll get the same sermon that you're pushing. Now who is "heaping up teachers"? That phrase means those teachers are everywhere. And just google Romans 9 and everyone will deny what Paul says here.

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Is this on a tough verse? Yes, but God, being an infinite being can "hate" Esau in His treatment of him here on earth and still have no partiality among men. How? By making these times temporary. By using his treatment of Esau for good later on. He didn't say He was done with Esau. He sent His Son as Savior.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Remember His reply to Job?

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (It is not of man to change God, but it is God's mercy on whom He will be merciful to)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (God raised up Pharoah so he would oppose God and God would show His power and His name might be declared everywhere. Pharoah had no choice here. Surely you can see that)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (He hardens some now and has mercy on some now. He locks up all together in stubbornness so that HE CAN HAVE MERCY ON ALL)

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (This is not a place for us to make a list, because no one has resisted Him. There is a distinct difference between His revealed will (telling Pharoah to let His people go, while hardening his heart behind the scenes) and His hidden intention)

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Job??? God is God and we are not. We have nothing to say about what God does or doesn't do)

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Clay certainly does not tell the potter what to do or even have the ability to discuss the matter.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 11

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

(If God "rewarded" by showing grace to us after we had said the sinner's prayer or agreed to "let" Him into our hearts, then that would not be grace. It would be God rewarding us after we cooperated with Him.

7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes so that they could not see

and ears so that they could not hear,

to this very day."[d] 9And David says:

"May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

(Did you see that Carrie? God gave them a spirit of stupor. For a season. He will lift that stupor when? Not when they begin to cooperate or something like that. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The jews eyes will be opened and it will have nothing to do with them. It's simply a matter of getting the last gentile believer into life and then the veil will be lifted. God's choice and timing. Not ours or Israels.

That's way too much for tonight.

I'll look back in in a couple of weeks or so.

Thanks for allowing me to post on your site.

Your brother in Christ.

AlanW45


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

So, you repented of believing in free will? Who caused you to change your mind? Did the Devil make you do it? Do you not believe Lucifer is a fallen angel "how you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, star of the morning, son of the dawn"? Yet Isaiah 14 is specifically speaking of the king of Babylon. Have you ever looked up the word "angel" in the Bible? It includes pastors, teachers, priests and kings. How would John "write to the angel of the church in Ephesus" (Rev 2:1) or Sardis (Rev 3:1)? Do angels receive written letters?

Satan's servants disguise themselves as servants of righteousness (2 Cor 11:12-13). Tartaroo is not reserved for the devil and his angels; Geenna is - the Lake of Fire (Mat 25:41; Rev 20:10). The angels who sinned in the days of Noah, by procreating with human women are currently in Tartaroo (hell) ~ the deepest abyss of Hades (2 Pet 2:4). Note this verse is past tense. The Antichrist and his false prophet to come are also angels in the form of men (Isaiah 14 aligns Lucifer as the coming Antichrist, again the king of end-time Babylon - note v. 16). They are cast into the Lake of Fire a thousand years before Satan (Rev 19:20/Rev 20:10). Sounds like you haven't done a thorough study on the word "hell" used in the Bible. I will provide a link for you, if you wish to read my study results.

You asked, "Seal their condemnation? You have some scripture for that one?" Did you read the passages I gave you above? I will quote here what I wrote to you:

"What does God say in Rom 1:28? "When they did not see fit to acknowlege God ANY LONGER, God gave them over to a reprobate mind" (in this case homosexuality). When people refuse to love the truth so as to be saved, God will allow them to be hardened, deceived, rebrobate and so forth, to seal their condemnation (2 Thes 2:9-12)."

Let me leave you with challenge:

Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" YOU PRESENT YOURSELVES. Surely, we cannot choose NOT to be a slave to one Master or the other, for to reject God is to be enslaved to Satan; to submit to God is to reject Satan. That is the ongoing dilemma. (Mat 6:24; John 8:44; 1 Pet 5:9)

God had a Ezekiel write His Word to Israel in Chapter 18:21-32. You really shoud read it. I'll give you the gist of it here:

18:29 "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?" IS IT NOT YOUR WAYS THAT ARE NOT RIGHT?

18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord GOD. 'Therefore, repent and live." HE CERTAINLY PUTS THE RESPONSIBLITY ON ISRAEL BY SAYING, 'REPENT AND LIVE'.

Not only did God require repentance of man from the foundation of the world, but Paul states again in Acts 17:31-32, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is NOW declaring to men that ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, HAVING FURNISHED PROOF TO ALL MEN by raising Him from the dead."

Consider the words of Jesus in John 15:22, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE. When did God first speak to man? In the Garden. Rom 1:20 confirms, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Are you going to stand before God and say, "You are the Potter and You made me this way! YOU HARDENED MY HEART!"?? YOU ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE, the Lord says.

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). He died for you and is declaring that you repent of your rebellion and accept the gospel of salvtion by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9; John 3:16). He is your Atonement; not fire ~ not anything else. He is the ONLY WAY (John 14:6).


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

AlanW45, You can type the Bible verses here all you wish, and I have read them ~ yet, the understanding is not the same as Universalists/Calvinists believe...rather than go into hours of debate, if you would like to know my study results and interpretation on these matters, whether it be hell, predestination/free will, Jacob and Esau and the like, I'm handing it to you here (you have the free will to read or not to read):

THESE ARE ON MY JUDAH'S DAUGHTER HUBPAGES PROFILE (written for the saints). I don't engage in lengthy debate there, so you know:

Hell: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna: http://hubpages.com/hub/HELL-Sheowl-

Don’t Limit His Love: http://hubpages.com/hub/Dont-Limit-H

God’s Sovereignty: Jacob & Esau: http://hubpages.com/hub/Gods-Soverig

The Lamb’s Book of Life: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Lambs-Bo

And The Books Were Opened: http://hubpages.com/hub/And-The-Book

Did Jesus Preach in Hell?: http://hubpages.com/hub/Did-Jesus-Pr

If your heart truly is open and not hardened, I pray you understand that God wants to show you more of Himself, if you are willing.


AlanW45 6 years ago

Carrie, thanks for the effort. I have read your doctrine many times on many different sites and I grew up on it. I know you are sincere and I appreciate that. But, I have been where you are.

I know that for now we will never agree on these things we've discussed. I know that we do agree on the basic tenets of the gospel of Christ Jesus. He was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, lived a perfect sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, was raised on the third day and is now sitting "at the right hand of God the Father Almighty".

On this we can agree. On the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.

About 10 years ago, I came across some basic truths that cut me to the core. Struggling with a few verses of scripture that didn't agree with my beliefs, I slowly came to the knowledge that on a number of things, I was wrong. I didn't want to give in and admit it. I had been studying scripture for years and "knew" I had it right.

I think to summarize the keys that opened my eyes to just a few of God's truths, I'll leave you and your site with them and move on.

Here they are:

Keys to unlocking scripture

God is completely and totally sovereign. His is the only "free" will.

All is out of God. Rom.11:36; 1 Cor.11:12; 2 Cor.5:18

You can’t “decide to believe”. Believers are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

When you die, you're dead. As in not alive.

Hades/Sheol (Hell) is simply the imperceptible or the unseen. There is no consciousness there. The Lake of Fire is the second death.

And....

Sin and death are both temporary. (As are all enemies) When sin and death are eliminated by Christ at the end of the ages, sinners and the dead will be vivified in Christ. This is the 3rd class mad alive spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

All scripture was written with a view to the ages/eons/aions. An exception is 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul takes us beyond the ages. There God the Father is All in all and He is the only One reigning. In Revelation, the saints are still reigning with Christ.

All ages will end.

Thanks for your sincerity and thoughtful responses. I wish you all the best.

Still your brother in Christ,

Alan


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Alan, I appreciate your summation and yet I also believe that missing the mark can be temporary or permanent, depending on you. 2 Tim 4:3-4 state, "For the time will come when THEY WILL not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, THEY WILL accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and WILL turn away THEIR ears from the truth and WILL turn aside to myths." Just because God KNOWS all things does not mean He WILLS it. The word "will", when it comees to God is "desire". It's not absolute authoritarianism. God is authoritative, but WILL judge men to eternal anathema or eternal life, according to His gospel truth and man's embracing or rejecting of it.

When the prophets spoke to people about God having no pleasure in the death of the wicked and told them to repent and live, we know logically this was not talking about physical death, for the righteous and the wicked all die a physical death.

Jesus would not have indicated the rich man in Hades had a conscious conversation with Abraham, if it were not so. As with Christ, we are made in the image of God. Our flesh dies; our spirit lives on. Consider Jesus raised HIMSELF from the dead! (John 2:19-21). While these ages in the flesh are temporary; the ages in the spirit are not. Paul stated clearly we are raised also in incorruptible bodies - not bodies that will perish (1 Cor 15:52). You must also believe this, for you think you can survive the Lake of Fire until God decides you've paid enough for your sin and you are ready for eternal life. That is the LIE that will keep you there.

You're indicating the ruling of the saints is temporary? Rev 21 and 22 are about the final, new heaven and new earth that do not pass away. There is no more death, etc. (Rev 21:4) God is all in all, in all of us, for we are His temple (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19)!

I believe God and I believe He is FAIR. He will make known His truth to ALL men so THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE when the judgment comes...after death (Heb 9:27). Why does the judment come after death? Because this is the time to decide, while you're living and breathing in the flesh. There is only one salvation, and that is by faith. There is no faith after death, for you will see the Lord and know all things, even as you are known (Heb 11:1; 1 Cor 13:12).

2 Cor 6:2 "for He says, 'AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.' Behold, now is 'THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,' behold, now is 'THE DAY OF SALVATION'" (NAS).

How will you know you have eternal life? 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." You proclaimed what you believe about Jesus. What you didn't say was that you believe He atoned for your sin and that by His grace through FAITH in Him, you are saved...born again. Are you born again? If so, God will reveal error, for you will have the Spirit of Truth (the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ) to lead you home. Have faith and it will be so. Without faith, it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).


AlanW45 6 years ago

I'm on vacation, but I found wifi.

Hello. The NIV says they will “accumulate a great number of teachers” Check the greek. Where are the great number of teachers saying what I am? It seems your teaching is the one with “a great number of teachers”. Literally, well over 90% of every Christian website echoes your thoughts. Isaiah 46:10 begs to differ with you. It says that God’s desire “will He do”. He will do all that He pleases. His wishes or desires are what He pleases.

And when they die on that very day their thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that “the living know that they must die, BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING”. The New Testament writers concur. John 3:13 says that no one has gone to Heaven except He who came down from heaven……Christ says He goes to prepare a place for us, and then He will return and take us back with Him. John 14:3 When Lazarus died, Christ told the others that “Lazarus is asleep”. Not that Lazarus is in heaven. In 1 Thessalonians 4, when questioned about faithful loved ones who had died, Paul says Christ will descend with a shout and “the dead in Christ will rise first”. If it’s a bodily resurrection only, why didn’t Paul just say “hey it’s OK, your dead believing relatives and friends are already in heaven”, instead of referring to Christ’s advent. This teaching of yours sounds more like: “You shall not surely die.”

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is the fifth of 5 parables aimed at the Jewish leadership. From the purple dress of the rich man, to the references to Jewish tradition of “being carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham”, to the insinuation of Lazarus as a dog. Jews versus gentiles. God’s favor. Google E.W. Bullinger and Lazarus and the rich man. Very enlightening. Oh well, here: http://philologos.org/__eb-rml/

Of course the ruling of the saints is temporary. God the Father will be All in all. If He’s our All, we can’t very well be focusing on other things. Such as judging angels (1 Cor. 6:3), or making known the manifold wisdom of God to the sovereignties in the heavens. What? Sovereignties? I thought God’s was the only sovereignty left at that time after reading Paul’s orbit completing scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. It is also here that Christ ABOLISHES death as the last enemy.

I don’t understand your questioning my faith here. I said that He died FOR OUR SINS and will return for us. If I don’t have faith in that, then I wouldn’t be proclaiming it. Faith in Christ is our only hope.

:-)

Alan


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

AlanW45, so you think that argument about a "great number of teachers" is going to hold up with God? For the sake of common sense, let's take that phrase out of the verse: 2 Tim 4:3-4 state, "For the time will come when THEY WILL not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, THEY WILL turn away THEIR ears from the truth and WILL turn aside to myths." I would say the verse still applies to you, wouldn't you? Imagine one teacher for every one person that turns his ears away from the truth. How many will follow the Pied Pipers (false teachers) to the Land of Destruction? (Mat 7:13; Luke 13:24)...so will there be a "great number of teachers"? I'd say so.

God's will is that no sin will enter the kingdom of heaven. He's made it clear. If you reject the atonement made for your sin (which is only the blood of Christ), not by the Lake of Fire, you are following "another gospel". Gal 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" Do you think the accursed will enter the kingdom of heaven? God’s sovereignty says NO. Read Mat 7:13 and Luke 13:24 again.

Have you ever tried to talk to a dead person? Have you ever tried to wake up a dead person? Well, obviously, the passages you quoted have to do with the flesh, not the spirit. You understand this has to do with bodily resurrection (John 3:13). What you don’t understand is the flesh and spirit (soul) separate at death. Since no one has yet ascended bodily into heaven, but Christ, explain Rev 6:10; you can see the souls of dead people crying out with a loud voice to God (while people are yet living on the earth). Our soul does not sleep. The dead are said to be asleep because they WILL all be resurrected bodily in one of the two resurrections…call it “soul meets body”, just as Christ’s spirit returned to His body upon resurrection. He did raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21). If His spirit/soul was not conscious of anything, He could not have accomplished this.

Again, I could share so much with you here, but I’ve written a hub on this topic called, “Beyond Death: What the Bible Says”: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Beyond-Dea... Read, if you care to seek more of God.

Regarding what you call a “parable” of Lazarus and the rich man, may I state that all parables were prefaced as such ~ “parable” ~ and were explained in detail by Jesus to His disciples. And what you claim is the interpretation certainly was not explained by Jesus. Also, this is the ONLY account of any “parable” using the names of real people: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and the prophets. In fact, I’ve addressed your doctrine of Jew/Gentile “logic” in a hub to another Universalist named Kev: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Answer-to-...

Rev 22:4-5 are clear: “they [His servants – v.3] will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.” If you want to get into the “forever and ever” doctrine, read my hubs to galatians22067. Here’s just one of the four: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Universal-...

Do you believe you are saved now, Alan? Or are you waiting until after death to be purified for salvation through the Lake of Fire? Seems to me that you understand the gospel of salvation by grace through faith. You understand that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ atoned for your sin. If you remain in this gospel and not allow false teachers to poison this truth, thereby you do not share “another gospel” with others, you will remain in His saving grace. Turning from His gospel to another nullifies His grace (Gal 2:21), not only for you, but for those you've influenced to follow it. Their blood will be on your hands! I’m praying James 5:20 for you: “he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” In Jesus’ holy name ~ Amen.


AlanW45 6 years ago

Carrie, thanks for the discussion.

I am moving on as once again, I have been a miserable failure. I can't even convince you that I, like you, believe that the only way to salvation is through Christ's atonement for sin on the cross.

I am fallible, being in the flesh, and prone to mistakes, but your continually questioning my faith because we have doctrinal differences is reason for me to move on. I will not do the same to you. :-)

I also want you and those reading here to know that I make no claim to authority or accuracy but for everyone to test everything against the word of God.

I wish you all the best!!

With love in Christ,

Alan


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Alan, I never said you were unsaved; did I? What I did say is that it appears you KNOW the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. The whole point of this disucussion is to enlighten you to the false gospel that's attempted to poison the truth in you. It is error; missing the mark; sin. God is long-suffering, patient, forgiving when we repent of that missing of the mark and come home. The Theif wants to steal, kill and destroy the gospel of grace through faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. I pray the Spirit of Truth confirm to you the error of Universalism, that no one is told by you, and that you close your ears to the lie that all mankind, Satan and his angels are saved ~ the majority after physical death ~ through the Lake of Fire. Come home and stay home. God loves you!! In His love and grace, Carrie.


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

AlanW45, The Lord had me do a study on the hardening of Pharaoh's heart ~ I pray you will read it, for it was a great blessing to me (I hope to you, too): http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Harden...


Dchosen_01 6 years ago

Carrie Bradshaw, you are really and truly a vessel unto honor used by God. Definitely your efforts are not in vain and He will continue to bless you abundantly. What baffles me is the way you research so deeply on His word. I really wish to reach this level where I can dig into the scriptures. I have spent 7 hours from last night till this morning, studying this single page of yours. You are truly amazing and I really want to know your methods. I know I still have a lot to read from your hubs so if you have any which could guide me, I would really be interested if you refer me to it.

As for those who do not believe the word, God's grace is sufficient for you and He will continue to fill you with more of His power of the understanding of His word so that you will be able to answer them appropriately. There is always that challenge for those who carry the true Gospel of Christ and proclaim it. So I encourage you to continue the good work and just as you have not (and I dont think you will) denied him or be ashamed of him here on earth, Our father in Heaven will not deny or be ashamed of you in Heaven. If I say I wasn't blessed from reading this hub, then it would be the biggest lie I have ever said since I was born.

Hoping to read through ALL your hubs. Once again, keep up the good work and we are solidly behind you....


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I couldn't be more blessed by your words, brother DChosen_01! Thank you! I would love for you to come over and join me on my other HubPages profile (for the saints), where my handle is "Judah's Daughter": http://hubpages.com/profile/Judah%27s+Daughter...

I do have a hub there that shows you how I study the Bible, called "How To Do An Inductive Bible Study": http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-to-do-...

For some very fascintating "nuggets of discovery" I've found through my studies (some revealing a difference from traditional orthodox teaching even), you might enjoy my hub overview beginning in my series called "Nuggets of Discovery": http://hubpages.com/hub/Nuggets-of-Discovery-1-10...

Hope to see you there!! I love you in the Love of the LORD, our God!! Blessings to you!!!


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

None of your business 4 hours ago (I will post portions of his comment, but will leave out the ad hominem):

"If god is SOVEREIGN which the bible clearly says he is, then how can we have free will?! Also, list ONE SPECIFIC scripture that states specifically that we have free will!"

Why just ONE? How about a multitude of them?:

Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'" Since we know that Israel is God's chosen, how is it they can rebel and die? How is it God pleads with them to 'repent and live'?

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants"

Joshua 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Luke 22:42 “"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

Romans 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

Hebrews 10:16 “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”

GOD IS SOVEREIGN. He is LORD of your soul, for ALL SOULS BELONG TO HIM (Ezekiel 18:4), and He says in Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." A saint can be killed by the Murderer, but that Murderer (Satan) cannot kill his/her soul. God is the LORD and HE is SOVEREIGN. He will destroy the souls that sin (Ezekiel 18:20) by rejecting His salvation, which came through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead. Only when one believes by faith and submits to the infilling of the Holy Spirit is he/she sealed with the seal of God until the Day of Redemption (Eph 4:30).


lifegate profile image

lifegate 5 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

I can't understand why people argue over simple Truth. Keep on keeping on, Sister!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi brother lifegate! Your name reminds me of the words of Jesus ~ that He is the Life and He is the Gate! AMEN! These people are deceived by their god and follow him whole-heartedly. This way they have no fear of everlasting judgment, for they walk in fear and this is the only way they can relieve it. Satan and his followers KNOW they're condemned. If they won't be saved, it's because God has handed them over to reprobate minds. While it seems so incredible that people turn their ears from the Truth, we know the Word of God is Truth and we will see what He said come to pass. God bless you, brother. May we stay in the Light!!!


None of your business 5 years ago

"Carrie" SPEWS:

If they won't be saved, it's because God has handed them over to reprobate minds.

What happened to our "FREE WILL" "Carrie"?! As usual you contradict yourself with your inane statements. You idiot!


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Rom 1:28 "And just as THEY DID NOT SEE FIT TO ACKNOWLEDGE GOD ANY LONGER, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper"

2 Thes 2:10-11 "THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH SO AS TO BE SAVED. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

God created the angels and humans with the choice to serve God or Satan. That is the only choice you have in regard to your eternal destination. The angels chose to rebel; Eve, then Adam chose to obey the Serpent. You have chosen not to receive the love of the truth. And, if you were ever one who walked in the truth and turned away from it to follow a teacher who tickles your ears (2 Tim 4:3), this is why you are handed over to a reprobate mind and caused to believe a lie. God's Spirit will not contend with man forever (Gen 6:3).


None of your business 5 years ago

You can sit there and take bible verses out of context all day long and quote them to me, and I can do the same thing to you.

.And for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, Who IS the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY (NOT EXCLUSIVELY) of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10 ).

" It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Rom. 9:16.

If Hell is real, if God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

If Hell is real and God's wrath abides upon billions of human beings forever, doesn't that violate the Scripture which says His anger will come to an end? (Isaiah 57:16-18)

If Hell lasts forever, why the Psalmist confidently speak again and again about being rescued from it (sheol)? (Psalms 16:10, 30:2-3, Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 116:3-8, 139:8).

"For men are NOT cast off by the Lord forever. Though He brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lam 3:31-33)

Want to keep going? You won't publish this, guaranteed. I notice that you didn't publish the link I left you in the other hub either.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

1 Tim 4:10 has to do with the fact, as I said before, that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. I also gave you passages such as the following, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26). God's grace, shed freely upon all men, can be NULLIFED. Look at Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Remember what I said about the Lamb's Book of Life ~ that all names start out in it? Check out Rev 3:5 "'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." You can also look up Ps 9:5; 69:28 and many more. As I said, I won't do the study for you.

So, while Christ is the Savior of ALL MEN, it only applies to those who believe.

Rom 9:16 is basically stating that we cannot save ourselves by our own methods. Those who are born again submit to the infilling of the Holy Spirit and His control. Those who refuse the gospel are submitting to the control of the Adversary. God is the Lord of all souls and will judge righteously.

God sent those who rejected Him to Sheol/Hades in the Old Testament as well as in the New. (Gen 29:24; Num 16:32; 26:10; Mat 11:22; Luke 16:23, etc. etc. etc.)

Regarding Isaiah 57:16-18, let's go to verse 15 to see who this passage applies to!! "For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, 'I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.'"

Regarding the Psalmist being rescued from Hell ~ who was the Psalmist? DAVID, a believer.

As far as Lamentations goes, look earlier in the passage of Lam 3, in verse 25: “The LORD [is] good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul [that] seeketh Him.” Then, go down to verse 40: “Let us examine and probe our ways, And let us return to the LORD.”

No, you need not keep going, for as I said I don't have 'time' to keep answering your harping on scriptures taken out of context. I have better ways to spend my days, like ministering to the saints!


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

You keep coming back for more, so something must be getting through to you ~ keep on fighting with all you've got because greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

None of your business wrote, "So, God takes our "free" will from us by deluding our minds?! But I thought the Lord doesn't change! Isn't there a scripture about that? And do we only have "free will" when it suits god? Doesn't sound FREE AT ALL to me, when someone/thing can play with your mind! And why would god deliberately try to deceive someone? Unless he's a liar himself. Does that make him any better than satan? Doesn't the bible say God is perfect love? If so, perfect being wouldn't deliberately try to deceive someone!"

My answer: God is perfect love, as I already shared with you. Those that are not in Christ are not in perfect love and abide under the wrath of God (John 3:36). Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44). A person can be handed over to Satan for destruction in this life and the next, for that is His purpose. The goal in handing one over to Satan in this life, is that the spirit/soul MIGHT be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 5:5). After that, it's too late.

God created Satan for His purpose, and this is a big one. If you don't believe Satan is used to exercise the wrath of God, compare 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

None of your business, I won't post links to heretical sites.

God both loves and hates. You really have no understanding of either, do you? God will be all in all WHO BELIEVE. All evil (Satan, the fallen angels, the Antichrist, the false prophet, and all those who teach and follow after a 'different gospel') will be cast into the lake of fire, where they have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever Rev 14:11. And if you don't believe in forever and ever, then you also believe God doesn't reign forever and ever; amen.


John Doe 5 years ago

Carrie, two questions I'd like to pose for you

1. Do animals have free will (they make choices as whether eat something or not)?

2. Can a human make a choice and/or do something without it being caused by something?


John Doe 5 years ago

Carrie,

God does reign forever, but not because of the word aion says he does, it is because he is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) and CAN NOT DIE.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

John Doe, I am not an animal. Are you? The Bible does not say animals were made in the image of God. God gave man the ability to choose life or death. Look at Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

While the hub I will recommend to you deals with Calvinism, they share the same belief that man has no “free” will. You want to focus on “free” ~ the Bible doesn’t say man’s will is “free”, but God gave you the ability to choose. If you have chosen to reject His salvation by grace through faith, available to you NOW, and freely given by God to you, you have chosen the consequence that God ordained as such.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Dont-Limit...


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

John Doe, 1 Cor 15:53-54 "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

We, too shall live forever; believers with God ~ unbelievers apart from Him, with their father, Satan. It is so written.


Q4A 5 years ago

Why don't you obey the following verses

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Q4A, why don't YOU do inductive study on that passage, to realize this is speaking to women (gune/gunaiki) wives and her own man (aner/andros) husband?

I'll do you this favor ~ I've already done the study: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Your-Daugh...


thermo 5 years ago

I have heard 'tickle the ears' in commentary regarding L Ray Smith. I must tell you it did anything but tickle my ears. To have your belief system shattered and question every thing you have ever known hardly tickles ones ears. But he is onto something, perhaps the narrow path!


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, thermo, I can tell you something. You were not grounded in the Bible for yourself before being exposed to L. Ray Smith. You've probably sat under teacher after teacher, just doing the 'religious' thing, the 'churchianity' thing...for if you were grounded, and if you KNEW your Creator, you would KNOW Smith is absolutely OUT THERE.


william wilson 5 years ago

bill-w carrie, Would you please explain Rom.8:19-22


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

william wilson, Romans 8:19-21 (each reader can read it in their Bibles) Read the whole chapter in context, noting verses 14, 18 and 23. Then, cross-reference with 1 Cor 1:7-8; Gal 3:26; Heb 12:27; 1 John 3:1-2 and Rev 21:7. I think this should sufficiently answer your twisted interpretation of that cherry-picked passage.

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