Revelation 13, the False Christ, God the Son and the Trinity Doctrine

There is a false antichrist religion that is one of the most popular mainstream beliefs of today. John in the book of Revelation identified this religion that would cause the entire world to worship this figure (image) that would make himself God incarnate setting himself up in the temple as “God.” This image has prevailed through ancient Babylonian history, the inquisition and the dark ages to this day led by a false prophet (spokesperson of Satan) who is in direct opposition to the truth that blasphemes the name of Yahweh (God) with false teachings by the altering and twisting of Scripture. We have been warned as attested in Scripture that there would be a counterfeit Messiah, counterfeit gospel and a counterfeit spirit. For those who are willing to question their indoctrination and dig deeper they may discover that they may be worshipping the Beast, rather than the true Yahshua Messiah, and have conformed to the spirit of this world by entering the wide gate. The spokesperson for this religion is a false prophet (the Pope) that forces the masses and all their harlot counterparts (denominations) to accept their creed (Trinity doctrine), or be damned as a result.

The evidence henceforth will reveal that what is called, “God the Son,” also known as the second person of the Trinity is the image of the Beast. This article is not meant to debate the Trinity doctrine, as I have many refuting it, but is for those who have been led to the truth that they already know that the Trinity is a lie. The next step is to come the ultimate conclusion that the largest religion in the world worships the Beast (Trinity) and many have been deceived having their minds seared through its indoctrination.

And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, speaking of these things in all his letters. Some things in these letters are hard to understand, THINGS THE IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, AS THEY ALSO DO TO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES. – 2 Peter 3:15-16

How can you say, “We are wise! We have the law of the Lord”? The truth is, those who teach it have used their writings to MAKE IT SAY WHAT IT DOES NOT REALLY MEAN. – Jeremiah 8:8

The Mark, or the Seal

The hardest people groups to reach for the true Gospel of Yahshua are those who have elevated an image of a man above God (Yahweh) in their hearts violating the First Commandment. The result is being marked, just as Paul and John had warned. Instead of sealing their minds via the Holy Spirit with the knowledge that Yahweh alone is God, men have elevated a God/man called “God the Son” aka “Jesus Christ” to be worshipped as Yahweh. As a result, they have been blinded by the mark, rather than receiving the protective seal of Yahweh upon their foreheads.

For although they knew God, THEY DID NOT GLORIFY HIM AS GOD or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless HEARTS WERE DARKENED. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged THE GLORY OF THE IMMORTAL GOD FOR AN IMAGE RESEMBLING MORTAL HUMAN beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. – Romans 1:21-23

By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus as the Christ WHO HAS COME IN THE FLESH is from God, but every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ANTICHRIST, which you have heard is coming, and now IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD. – 1 John 4:2-3

The spirit of the antichrist is anyone who does not admit that Yahshua was one-hundred percent human, not God (Yahweh). The denial that Yahshua was not one-hundred percent human turns him into the inversion of the Son of God becoming “God the Son,” the false Messiah.

The seal of “God the Son” is the Trinity doctrine founded upon the ancient Babylon religion that is represented by a symbol of the “cross” (T for Tammuz) that the image of the Beast was founded from. The seal is written on the foreheads of all the initiates who conform to the world's greatest deception.

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea - Revelation 13:1
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea - Revelation 13:1
"God the Son," image of the beast
"God the Son," image of the beast

John saw a vision of a beast coming out of the earth. This first beast is called “Christianity” led by the false prophet called the Pope. The false prophet of the second beast was like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. This is the voice of the spirit of Satan behind what is called, “Christianity.” This pontiff exercises all authority over the first beast called, “God the Son” on behalf of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church system whose sole purpose is to make all the people of the earth come to worship the image of the beast.

In honor of the beast an image has been set up in the hearts of all those whom they worship called, “God the Son.” The false counterfeit spirit gives breath to the false image of the Messiah where the indoctrinated masses declare, “Jesus is God.” History attests to the atrocities done to those who refused to worship the image and were martyred as a result.

Then I saw another BEAST coming up from the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but was speaking like a dragon. HE EXERCISED ALL THE RULING AUTHORITY of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and those who inhabit it WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST, the one whose lethal wound had been healed. He performed MOMENTOUS SIGNS, even making fire come down from heaven in front of people and, by the signs he was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast, he deceived those who live on the earth...

HE TOLD THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE EARTH TO MAKE AN IMAGE TO THE BEAST who had been wounded by the sword, but still lived. THE SECOND BEAST WAS EMPOWERED TO GIVE LIFE TO THE IMAGE OF THE FIRST BEAST SO THAT IT COULD SPEAK, and could cause all those who did not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a MARK ON THEIR RIGHT HAND OR ON THEIR FOREHEAD. – Revelation 13:11-16

Unfortunately, many are looking for a literal man who they will call the "Antichrist," but have failed to recognize it as an image. Unknowingly to many, the worship of this image has already led to the abomination of desolation for thousands of years already. It is a deception that has been going on such a mass scale that no one sees it unless they have been guided by the Holy Spirit. The man-driven denominational Church system founded upon ancient Babylon to Constantine to Catholicism has already committed the abomination of desolation leading to what is is called, “Christianity.” Billions around the world have given their lives to the antichrist, the false counterfeit image of the Messiah (God the Son) led by salaried mediators who are called “men of God.” The masses trust these men to bilk them of their time and money as they point them down the wide road that leads to destruction by practicing man-made rituals looking to the future for things that will never happen.

What may be shocking news to many is that the image of the antichrist has been fulfilled right before our eyes, but no one seems to see it. The great deception is already in play today, but those who have been given over to a depraved mind are simply blinded to it.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a DEPRAVED MIND, to do what should not be done. – Romans 1:28

Depraved mind
Depraved mind
Babylonian Queen with mark on her forehead.
Babylonian Queen with mark on her forehead.

The Evidence

John in the book of Revelation identified the image of the antichrist. Unfortunately, the English translations of the Bible has been tampered with, but with a little investigating we will find some wisdom and insight into one of the greatest deceptions taking place as many are accepting the spiritual mark of the Beast (Trinity), which is the symbol of an X on the forehead putting their antichrist indoctrination into practice, the opposite of having the seal of Yahweh (God).

The serpent is an obvious symbol of Satan, the devil, and sin, as numerous scriptures in the Bible confirm such as Genesis 3, Revelation 12:9;15 and 20:2
The serpent is an obvious symbol of Satan, the devil, and sin, as numerous scriptures in the Bible confirm such as Genesis 3, Revelation 12:9;15 and 20:2


When we look at Revelation 13 from some of the original Greek manuscripts, we find that the number 666 is a mistranslation based on the meaning of “number” from the Greek word arithmos. The fact is that John did not write down a number, but a symbol. The scribes and translators from God’s inspired words removed these symbols. The number 666 is misleading, as it only represented the gematria of the symbols of what John wrote in Greek letters.

What is the symbol of the Beast?

Let’s take a look at some of the Greek texts from Revelation 13:18, but first in its mistranslated form, then in its true form in English, and then in Greek.

Is the following rendering in English correct?

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666. – Revelation 13:18

It is not, the correct translation would read like this,

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight reckon up the SYMBOL OF THE BEAST, for it is the symbol of a man that identifies him. That symbol is χξς - Revelation 13:18

The Greek Texts

ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν. ὁ ἔχων τὸν νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί, καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ χξϛʹ - Scrivener’s Textus Receptus

ὧδε ὁ σοφία εἰμί ὁ ἔχω νοῦς ψηφίζω ὁ ἀριθμός ὁ θηρίον ἀριθμός γάρ ἄνθρωπος εἰμί καί ὁ ἀριθμός αὐτός χξϛ – Tischendorf 8th Edition

Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ χξς’ – Greek Orthodox Church 1904

Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν ὁ ἔχων τὸν νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ χξς - Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550

If you notice there are three symbols at the very end of each Greek verse above. John did not write the number 666, but wrote figurative symbols that leads to identifying the mark, the monogram and pictogram of the false Messiah, “God the Son.” This Christogram represents the image of the beast. Christograms have been used throughout history in a combination of Greek letters that form abbreviations for the name of “Jesus Christ” used symbolically. The Latin phrase “Christi Monogramma” in English means the monogram of Christ.

The monogram that John wrote down was xi ( ξ ), which is a unique symbol of a serpent in Greek. This ancient mysterious Egyptian pagan symbol represents the serpent that gives power, authority and a throne on the earth to the false Messiah who is called, “God the Son.”


One of the standard Christograms according to the Catholic Encyclopedia is the monogram ( XS ), ( XC ) in medieval times, or ( ΧΡΙΣΤΟS ) meant to represent “Jesus Christ.” When we take chi ( χ ) and sigma ( ς ) and put the xi ( ξ ) the symbol of the serpent in the middle we get the pagan Greek title for Christos. This name is used of all the pagan demi gods, after which “God the Son” was fashioned into the Roman Catholic creeds.

Again, here is the unaltered translation of Revelation 13:8 into English.

THIS CALLS FOR WISDOM. LET THE PERSON WHO HAS INSIGHT reckon up THE SYMBOL OF THE BEAST, for it is the symbol of a man that identifies him. That symbol is χξς - Revelation 13:18

The false Messiah
The false Messiah

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea… The dragon ( ξ ) gave the beast ( XS ) his power, his throne, and great authority to rule. Revelation 13:1-2

The arrival of THE LAWLESS ONE will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders, and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. – 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

The Image and Identification of the Beast

The interesting thing as that those who partake of the man-driven Babylonian Church system believe the law of Yahweh has been abolished through “Jesus Christ.” The “fruit” of their lawlessness through their version of “grace” is well manifested today.

You may be thinking this all some religious conspiracy theory, but the artifacts of history do not lie. The evidence from the Greek reveals the symbols that John wrote down were meant to be an identifier. This image of the beast is on the painted mosaics in church buildings and cathedrals throughout the world.

The hand gesture reveals the meaning of John symbols in Revelation.
The hand gesture reveals the meaning of John symbols in Revelation.

“Jesus Christ” in Greek is ( ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ). The first and last Greek letters of each word form, ( ΙΣ XΣ ). Today it would be known as ( ΙS XS ).

The Beast religion is being practiced in plain site and it is an abomination to our Father in heaven. The symbol for “God the Son” aka “Jesus Christ” of the Trinity is depicted in paintings with the hand gesture forming the antichrist symbol of an X with the two fingers on the top and the ( C ), ( ς ) for sigma from the bottom two fingers. This is a clear identifier, or self-identification of the false Messiah, “God the Son” revealed in plain site with the pagan sun disc behind his head.

( X ) of the beast
( X ) of the beast

The symbol of ( χξς ) points to the Trinity. The mark of the Beast is an X that seals the initiate on the forehead, which is a symbol of the allegiance to the sign of the cross of popery. On Ash Wednesday an X mark is put on the forehead of the “Christian” while they repeat “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" sealing their minds with the cross of Tammuz in defiance of the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) practicing the different acts of Mass.

IHS with Tammuz cross representing sun god worship.
IHS with Tammuz cross representing sun god worship.

A pictogram of ( χξς ) in English would be XES. This is the plural form of the X monogram of “Jesus.” X to Xs becomes plural. Xes is the plural form indicating “Jesus” within a Trinity.

IHS = χξς = XES

XES is the English translation of the Greek form of IHS, which is the most famous symbol for “Jesus.” XESÚS is a common form of “Jesus” today.

I don’t know if you put the pieces all together yet, but John revealed the name of the false Christ through symbolism that contained the mark of the Beast, the serpent and the monogram for XESÚS.

The dragon ( ξ ) stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a BLASPHEMOUS NAME. – Revelation 13:1

…so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the NAME of the beast ( XES ) or the number of its NAME. – Revelation 13:17

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight reckon up the SYMBOL OF THE BEAST, for it is the symbol of a man that identifies him. That symbol is χξς - Revelation 13:18

"God the Son"
"God the Son"
...two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon - Revelation 13:11
...two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon - Revelation 13:11
Forced indoctrination
Forced indoctrination

“God the Son,” the Second Beast

The rise of the first beast called “Christianity” started when the Son of God was inverted to “God the Son” at the Council of Nicaea. “Christianity” was created around this image ( χξς ) where its false prophet (Satan’s spokesperson) captivated the entire world to worship the image of the first beast. The pontiff replaced the headship of Yahshua Messiah becoming the High Priest of the image of the antichrist. If you follow the trail of history from the ancient Babylonian priesthood till today, the lineage of Satan’s religion is alive and already well established. The religion of “Christianity” evolves around the supposed abolished eternal laws of Yahweh and inverting His Son to “God the Son” through the brute force of the inquisition to the forced ignorance of the Dark Ages becoming the largest and most powerful religion in this fallen world today.

Do you partake of the Trinity beast religion?

  • Yes
  • No
See results without voting

Do you worship “God the Son?”

  • Yes
  • No
See results without voting

How you answer all depends on whether you worship the image of the God/man called, “God the Son” through the man-made religious system of the antichrist called “Christianity,” or worship the Father Yahweh in heaven through His one hundred percent human Son who is our High Priest in heaven being part of the ekklesia of Yahshua. One is the wide road and the other is the narrow road.

Which one are you on?

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, WILL HE FIND FAITH ON EARTH?” – Luke 18:8

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Comments Appreciated 48 comments

Dr CHE Sadaphal profile image

Dr CHE Sadaphal 4 months ago from New York, NY

What I'm very curious to find out is that, at least the way I understand it, sin is such a pervasive problem in the Bible that it's penalty is irrevocably death. Even one sin separates a person from God forever and the necessity of the sacrificial system described in Leviticus testifies to the idea of substitutionary atonement. So, if we know that creations (like bulls and lambs) can only atone for a person temporarily for one sin, and if Jesus was just a normal, mortal guy, then how is the problem of sin rectified? It also begs the question, then, what the whole point of the Cross was, if in the end, a regular human being died on a cross?

PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

To answer your first question:

((So, if we know that creations (like bulls and lambs) can only atone for a person temporarily for one sin, and if Jesus was just a normal, mortal guy, then how is the problem of sin rectified?))

The human being whom Yahweh gave authority to forgive sins was Yahshua, not only him, but since his resurrection there are others as well.

It was the Pharisees were the ones who insisted only Yahweh can forgive sins.

"But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, take up your bed and go home" - Matthew 9:6

Notice what Yahshua does here. The Pharisees charge that only God can forgive sins, Yahshua tells them that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins on earth and he is healing the paralytic to prove to these Pharisees with this sign that he has this authority. He asks, "Which is easier?" Is it easier to do a miracle, or forgive a man's sins? Obviously, it is the latter. So, Yahshua does the more difficult to prove that he has the authority to do the easier thing. Man was given this authority and Yahshua wss demonstrating to the Pharisees that their notion that God alone can forgive sins was in error.

“Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” - Mark 2:7

"When the crowds saw it, they were awestruck, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men - Matthew 9:8

The crowds were quite amazed by the fact that God had given such authority to men to forgive sins. Yahshua had proven the Pharisees to be completely wrong. Notice how we are told that God gave this authority to men, clearly showing us that Yahshua, as a man was given this authority by his God.

So, what more do we need to say here?

Scripture demonstrates that the Pharisaical notion that only God could forgive sins was wrong and Matthew writes that the crowds were amazed that God had given such authority to forgive sins to men. We should also take note here that Yahweh is distinguished from the man Yahshua in this passage. Matthew wrote this passage under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and he said that Yahweh had indeed given such authority to men, and the man who had been given this authority, happened to be Yahshua the Nazarene.

Let's look at Mark's parallel passage and we will insert the phrase Matthew left out of the same account in his Gospel.

And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed, and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son. Your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming. [Who can forgive sins but God alone?]" But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, "Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, "Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins," he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, take up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were in awe, and they glorified God who had given such authority to MEN." - Matthew 9:2-8; Markk 2:7

If anything this passage militates heavily that Yahweh gave authority to men in the giving of this authority to the man Yahshua. It not only distinguishes Yahweh from the man Yahshua, but it also shows us that if Yahshua was Yahweh, why would he need to be given this authority from himself in the first place?

The facts are clear, there is no alternative, but to claim Yahweh gave authority to Yahshua, a man.

The reason Yahshua was forgiving a man's sins was that he as a man who was given authority to do so by Yahweh, not because he was "Yahweh."

Yahshua gaves this same authority to his apostles. After he rose from the dead, he breathed the Holy Spirit upon them and told them that if they forgave the sins of any they were forgiven, and if they retained the sins of any they were retained. Before Yahshua said this he said, "As the Father sent me, I also send you" and breathed the Spirit into them. When Yahshua was baptized at the Jordan, he was given authority in the same way by the Spirit to forgive sins. And later, he sent his Apostles to do the very same thing. Yahweh had granted this authority to men through His Holy Spirit that lives in these men who do forgive sins in his name. And the Father sent Yahshua, now he also sent his Apostles. This is why they baptized in the name of Yahshua for the forgiveness of sins. They had the authority given to them to do these things in the name of Yahshua by the Spirit he gave them, just as Yahshua did these things in the name of his God and Father. As he himself said on this occasion, "Just as the Father sent me, I now send you."

Yahweh had given authority to forgive sins to men. To prove he had this authority, he asked which was greater, to forgive sins, or to heal a crippled man. And so he healed a crippled man to prove he was given the authority to forgive sins. We are plainly told by Peter that God had anointed him with such authority (Acts 2:22; 10:38; Luke 4:18).

Who can forgive sins but God alone?

Those who have been given that authority in the Holy Spirit. And the man Jesus was given that authority by Yahweh at the Jordan. Indeed, it is by Yahweh dwelling in Yahshua in the Spirit that sins were forgiven.

God had given authority to a man, the man Yahshua, to forgive sins, and he demonstrated to the Pharisees that he had been given this authority by doing the greater miracle, healing the paralytic.

"They glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

To answer your second question:

((It also begs the question, then, what the whole point of the Cross was, if in the end, a regular human being died on a cross?))

If Yahshua is God, then he would not need great faith to do miracles, but if Yahshua was a man, then he would need great faith to be able to do the will of his Father.

The true power of Yahshua was represented by him being a MAN of faith.

Yahshua overcame his flesh by proving what no man has been able to prove that through faith he was able to please Yahweh, his Father.

If our Messiah is God, then Yahshua's ability to please Him is not an example for us to follow because the Trinity doctrine would have us imagine that God is pleased with himself and would never offend himself with sin.

Dr CHE Sadaphal profile image

Dr CHE Sadaphal 4 months ago from New York, NY

I will respond briefly to the second question rebuttal here and then return sometime tomorrow.

So, if Jesus is just a man, then what I am led to believe is that when the Holy Spirit overshadows a normal human woman (Luke 1:35), the result is just a normal regular guy? Being human, was Jesus corrupted by original sin?

And yes, I understand your train of thought on faith, but I must again ask, why the need for the cross? Why the need for the resurrection? Why attribute four canonical gospels that detail the fact of the cross? Because, if the crux of the matter is faith, then why not just stop with miracles and profound ethical teaching in the Old Testament?

So if I understand correctly, Jesus, as a regular man, was able to do the exact will of the father by faith alone. Do this then mean that I am capable of perfect obedience? Is anyone else? Is that faith given as a gift from God (by grace through faith) or is that faith generated by the self? Why is it that the rest of the Biblical narrative (which contains other confirmed mortals) describes people with the utter inability to execute such profound faith with resultant perfect obedience to the will of the Father?

PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((So if I understand correctly, Jesus, as a regular man, was able to do the exact will of the father by faith alone. ))

Yahshua was not just a regular guy. Yahshua, as we see him in the New Testament, is a man with the same nature as all human beings, just as Elijah was a man with the “same nature” as us (James 5:17). Because Jesus shared the same nature as humans, he was “in every respect tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15).

But being of the same nature doesn’t mean that he is the same as us in every respect because he was perfect. His perfection was not, however, something that came to him automatically by any standing as "God the Son," the second person of the Trinity, but something that he had learned through suffering and attained by Yahweh’s indwelling presence in him. Yahshua is the only perfect man who has ever lived. Among all the human beings who have ever lived since the fall of Adam and Eve, there has been “none righteous, not even one” (Rom.3:10). But when Yahshua came, there was finally one, but only one.

Because there has never been a sinless person in history apart from Yahshua, he is an extraordinary man, a unique man, a glorious man, the only man who has attained the zenith of Yahweh’s eternal purposes for man.

In some translations of the Hebrew Bible, a few people are said to be “perfect,” but in such cases the Hebrew word is more appropriately translated “blameless,” a rendering that is seen in some other Bibles. No human apart from Yahshua has ever attained absolute perfection. What was achieved by the few righteous people in the Old Testament was not an absolute perfection, but a relative.

When we speak of Yahshua as the only perfect man, we are speaking of his absolute sinlessness, of a total perfection with no ifs or buts, of an achievement that is truly astounding. The perfect man is the greatest miracle that Yahweh has ever done in Yahshua, for no man can ever attain to absolute perfection unless Yahweh empowers him every moment of his life. This was achieved in the case of Yahshua, also because he had lived every moment of his life in total obedience to his Father, Yahweh. Because of his perfection, Yahshua was exalted to the highest place in the universe second to Yahweh Himself. He is seated at the “right hand of God,” made second only to Yahweh in all creation. Yahweh has subjected everything to him and committed all power to him. As such, Yahshua functions as God’s visible representative.

Anyone who sees the face of Jesus sees the glory of Yahweh (2 Corinthians 4:6). Anyone who sees the face of Yahshua sees the glory of God.

PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:19

Is Paul speaking of the obedience of God, or of man?

Paul is speaking explicitly of the obedience of the “one man” Yahshua, to the counterpart of the “one man” Adam.

The obedience of "God to God" is not what matters for our salvation, nor the obedience of the second person of the Trinity to the first person of the Trinity who are coequal and share a common substance. The obedience of "God to God" bears no relevance to the most important issue for man: his salvation.

To get what Romans 5:19 is saying, let us look at it again: It was by one man’s disobedience (Adam’s) that “the many” (a metaphor for all men) were made sinners. Hence, it is necessary that “through the obedience of the one man (not the obedience of "God to God," or the obedience of one person of the Trinity to the other) the many will be made righteous.”

You may say that the second person of the Trinity became man by incarnation, but it does not solve the problem of of the admission that Yahshua was not originally, or essentially a man; he had to become man, which he was not before.

Trinitarians say that “God the Son” acquired a “human nature” through incarnation, but a human nature is not a whole human being, which means that Yahshua is not “fully man” as posited in Trinitarian dogma. If we say that Yahshua’s human nature with a human body is a whole person, then another problem arises: “God the Son” would then be united to a whole human person, making Yahshua two persons, which is a nonsensical logical conclusion.

If Yahshua is not a true human being like Adam (or like us, Adam’s descendants), but is God-man, then the crucial words of Romans 5:18-19 must be ignored.

The body of Christ is now in the world in the way that the head, Yahshua Messiah, was in the world. In other words, the ekklesia is now as Yahshua in the world, not only as a community, or a spiritual organism, but also as individuals. The body of each individual believer who has received the Spirit of Yahweh is now the temple of the Holy Spirit, that is, the temple of yahweh, in basically the same way that Yahshua was the temple of Yahweh, except for the crucial difference that whereas Yahshua attained absolute perfection through Yahweh’s indwelling, we have not (yet) attained to the “stature of Christ”. Even so, we can experience Yahshua in ourselves, and not just in some abstract intellectual way. Hence, Paul is able to say, “For me to live is Christ”; it is for this reason that “to die is gain (Phil 1:21).

Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 4 months ago from The Ekklesia


Thanks for the write up. I wasn't aware of the symbol swap for numbers, nice find. I consider myself part of the choir and we need to know about these things as well.



markie9 profile image

markie9 4 months ago from Ft. Lauderdale, FL

thank you for sharing

Dr CHE Sadaphal profile image

Dr CHE Sadaphal 4 months ago from New York, NY


"Yahshua was not just a regular guy."

Yes, I totally agree. We also conclusively agree that Jesus was sinless, perfect and lived a life of perfect obedience. No arguments there. Further, we concur on original sin, the absolute necessity for human beings to be redeemed out of the fallen creation, and the church (the body of Christ) of which Christ is the head and believers are animated in word and deed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is where we shall disagree:

Here is where all my debates with Arians always return: no creature

can cancel the power of sin and death and offer eternal life to other creatures. Only God can do that. So, even if Jesus is a "regular guy plus," then salvation is impossible. And, if Jesus is just a "regular guy plus," why did an Almighty God need to use a "regular guy plus" for anything?

I'm also still curious as to what your theological interpretation is of why God needed Jesus to endure the cross. Why didn't the Father just forgive sins? And, if the Father did just do that, doesn't that negate His justice? Why did God have to wait until 0 AD to give us this human mediator? Why not just get it over with in Genesis?

Finally, there are some very questionable verses I can think of when contemplating the realm of the exclusively human Jesus:

John 8:56-59: Here Jesus refers to Himself as "I am," the same name the Father called Himself in Exodus 3:14. This is actually the most personal and specific name of the God of the Bible. The moniker was so blatantly offensive, that Jesus almost got stoned. In fact Christ has eight "I am" statements in the Book of John. So if Jesus wasn't God, how is this not a blatant sin? This violates the First Commandment.

Let's look at Matthew 28:16-19. There the text says the disciples worshipped Christ. How is this not heresy? Jesus then proclaims that God has given Him all power and authority on heaven and on earth. Why would God give such power to a mere man? That seems to diminish the character of God. Lastly, here there is a command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. Covenants are between God and mankind. Baptism is a sign of a covenant. Why would the covenantal sign, marking the beginning of the walk of salvation, involve God and a not-God?

In Revelation 3:21 we see Jesus sitting down on the throne in Heaven ... that is, on the Father's throne. If Christ is a human, this not only deifies humanity but belittles The Lord. Thoughts?

Titus 2:13, “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

Then, of course, there is everyone's favorite in John 1 where the text says, "the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God … And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us ... No one has ever seen God, **but the one and only Son, who is himself God** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Neil Braithwaite 4 months ago

@ DR CHE - Reading your arguments I find that you have learned from the same teachers as most everyone regarding the trinity - myself included. Here are a couple of links that can easily refute all of your "proof" texts about the trinity and links to two books by the late Eric H. H. Chang - A pastor and teacher who taught and defended the trinity for the majority of his life until he began to see the light of truth. Make sure to read these two books and especially the introduction where Mr. Chang explains his change of heart and mind regarding the trinity.

Here are two books that will be very helpful.

"The One True God"

"The Only Perfect Man"


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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((And, if Jesus is just a "regular guy plus," why did an Almighty God need to use a "regular guy plus" for anything?))

It is because the Trinitarian doctrine implies we cannot be “God incarnate,” we cannot be like “Jesus.” “God the Son” knew things for a fact and did not need to have “faith” because he was, is and has always been God.

To believe that "Jesus" is deity undermines the sole purpose of Yahshua to show us the example of how a Godly man should walk by following in his footsteps.

How could we even aspire to be like Yahshua if he is God?

It would be a futile exercise. We may be able to look like Yahshua, but still could never be like him because he is God. It would be like a tree teaching us how to be a “tree.” We could make ourselves look like a “tree,” but could never be a true and genuine tree.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the OUTSIDE of the cup and the plate, but INSIDE they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the INSIDE of the cup and the plate, that the OUTSIDE also may be clean. – Matthew 23:25-26

Obviously, just looking like Yahshua would not be enough because he commanded us to live and walk like he did. Making our outside look like “God the Son” without being God would be hypocrisy would it not?

Looking like a “tree” on the outside would not be enough if the tree stated that we also have to make our inside look like a tree also. If we simply looked like a “tree branch,” but not being a real tree branch, how would we be able to thrive and bear fruit as a genuine tree does?

“I am THE TRUE VINE, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. AS THE BRANCH CANNOT BEAR FRUIT BY ITSELF, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches.

Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that BEARS MUCH FRUIT, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you BEAR MUCH FRUIT and SO PROVE TO BE MY DISCIPLES. – John 15:1-8

great example of faith that Yashua demonstrated in the New Testament. The reason is that “God the Son” does not need faith. If Yahshua is Yahweh, then he would not need any faith. To believe in the Trinity means that Yahshua is not presented as a man who was FULL OF FAITH who demonstrated great miracles as part of his ministry.

If "Jesus" is God, then he would not need great faith to do miracles, but if Yahshua was a man, then he would need great faith to be able to do the will of his Father.

The Trinitarian will retort, “heresy, "Jesus" was a God/man!”

Again, the irony is they have bought into a false image. They have been blinded and unable to grasp what the true power of Yahshua represented by being a MAN of faith.

As I had mentioned in my comment above,

Yahshua overcame his flesh by proving what no man has been able to prove that through faith he was able to please Yahweh, his Father.

If our Messiah is God, then Christ’s ability to please Him is not an example for us to follow because the Trinity doctrine would have us imagine that God is pleased with himself and would never offend himself with sin.

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED WICKEDNESS; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” – Hebrews 1:8-9

How many times have these verses been quoted by a Trinitarian to “prove” that God is speaking of "God the Son" by letting everyone know that he is also God too?

I will demonstrate how meaningless this text would be if that were the case.

What would be the point of these verses if God was praising the Son because he “loved righteousness and hated wickedness” if he was already God?

It would be pointless.

Why would God say that he anointed Christ (“God the Son”) if he already is God?

Isn’t it already a given that God would do nothing else but love righteousness and hate iniquity?

We already know that God cannot be tempted to do any evil,

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL, and he himself tempts no one. – James 1:12

Think about it, if "Jesus" is God, then why would he have to prove himself to himself by being obedient to death before he himself could highly exalt himself?

And being found in appearance AS A MAN, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names – Philippians 2:8-9

If Yahshua is YHWH (Yahweh) from the beginning, then why would he have to prove himself to himself before being given the name above all names?

If Yahshua is righteous because he is Yahweh, then there would be absolutely no doubt of his obedience to himself by hanging on the stake.

If God knows his own capabilities, then why does God have to see his own obedience in action?

When we take a good look at the genuine Gospel, it is about Yahshua being obedient for our benefit, rather than God’s. Paul stated earlier in Philippians 2:5,

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus

It becomes obvious that Yahshua’s demonstration of obedience was for us, and an example for us to follow.

If "Jesus" is Yahweh and is obedient because he is "God," he would not be an example for us to follow.


It is because we do not have the ease of drawing off of “Godly powers” because we are called to walk by faith. “God the Son” would need no faith to perform works of righteousness because he was already God.

Think about it, how could Yahshua be an example to us of having righteousness without having any faith?

The Apostles taught that the promised seed that would come through Abraham would come by FAITH, not by works.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH. – Romans 4:13

How many times do we hear that Yahshua was righteous by the Law. Of course! He is “God” and was the only one who kept it perfectly!

There is a problem with this doctrine,

According to false Trintarian “church” doctrine, the promise fulfilled by the “seed” came by obeying the Law perfectly, not by faith.

Do you see the problem here? Paul stated that is was not through the Law, but by faith!

Trinity doctrine states that “God the Son” fulfilled the promises by obeying the Law perfectly because he is “God.” If that is the case, the Trinitarian “Jesus” does not qualify as the seed of promise because Paul stated that the promise would be fulfilled by faith, NOT by the works of the Law.

For if those who live by the Law are heirs, FAITH IS USELESS AND THE PROMISE IS WORTHLESS – Romans 4:14

And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and CO-HEIRS WITH CHRIST--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. – Romans 8:17

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


It states in Scripture that we are co-heirs with Yahshua, but if he was “highly exalted” as "God the Son" by keeping the Law perfectly, then he would be heir by the Law, not by faith would he not?

That would mean the promises are nullified and worthless.

The seed that came by Abraham through faith was Yahshua.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

– Romans 4:13-14

If Yahshua is heir by the works of the Law, then faith is cancelled out.

So, we must conclude that Yahshua was heir by faith. It was not about that he kept the Law perfectly because he was “God” because that would cancel faith out and void the promise.

FOR IF THE INHERITANCE COMES BY THE LAW, IT NO LONGER COMES BY PROMISE; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. – Galatians 3:18

If Yahshua received his inheritance by keeping the Law as “God the Son,” then the inheritance is not by promise, but must be by works of the Law. It would follow then that since we are co-heirs with him, then we also receive our inheritance in the same manner by keeping the Law perfectly also.

See the problem?

Most will agree that this is impossible to do, but the Trinitarian will go on to say that "Jesus" was able to do it because he is “God.” If that is the case, he did not receive his inheritance by faith, and we cannot be co-heirs with him. “God the Son” did not need faith, but by his own divine power as “God” kept the Law perfectly.

According to the counsel of Scripture, to believe in the Trinity doctrine cancels out our faith and our inheritance.

Many Trinitarians don’t even understand the ramifications of their man-made doctrine. They talk about their “faith IN Christ,” but you will never hear them talk about the “faith OF Christ” because “God the Son” they believe in did not need faith.

The Apostles had something different to say.

Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, except through faith from Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith from Christ, and not by works of the Law, because BY WORKS OF THE LAW NOT ANY FLESH WILL BE JUSTIFIED.

– Galatians 2:16

Take note, it says “not any flesh” is justified by the Law. This flesh would also include Yahshua’s flesh.

Was not Yahshua’s flesh and blood the same as our flesh and blood?

That would mean he also must be justified by faith and not of works of the Law.

Trinitarian love to talk about their “belief in Christ,” but fail in their understanding of what we are to believe about him. Big difference! To have faith of Yahshua means to believe in the same power that he demonstrated. We too can have the same power to overcome sin and live righteously by faith.

But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also have been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Never may it be! For if I build again these things that I had torn down, I PROVE MYSELF A TRANSGRESSOR. - Galatians 2:17-18

The Trinitarian will not understand that to be justified by faith means to obey Yahshua by following his example by living as he lived. He lived by faith. To be found a sinner by seeking to be justified by faith negates that Christ is in charge of your life. “Is Christ the minister of sin?”

How many times do you hear people say they are justified by the blood of Christ by his death and resurrection, yet hearing nothing about repentance, or faith?

This is in direct contradiction to the Apostle’s teaching.

Therefore, HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace in which we stand; and we boast in the hope of the glory of God. – Romans 5:1-2

The Trinitarian will state that we are not justified by anything we do. It is not about faith, but only by “the blood” of Christ. They believe that justification is about a ransom that has been paid. They will say God does not look at anything in the person, but something that has been done for the person (the blood) paid for their sin.

To believe in this false doctrine is to totally miss the purpose of the blood of Christ, which is to bring us FAITH so Yahshua can live through us. CHRIST IN US! The Trinitarian will say that “justification” is only about Christ paying for all (past, present and “future”) their sins with his blood.

This means that Yahshua died so they can still remain ungodly being “justified” in their sins, yet walking in the righteousness of the faith of Christ is unheard of.

The blasphemy of the Trinitarian belief system is that they twist Romans 4:5 to their own liking by saying God only “justifies” ungodly people, meaning that they must remain “ungodly” to be justified.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted as righteousness – Romans 4:5

Paul stated that God sometimes justifies the ungodly, but to say that God ONLY justifies ungodly people is false. They do not consider that they are also calling Christ “ungodly” because their Trinity “proofs” shows evidence of the “deity of Christ” being “justified by the spirit.”

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16

Again, if God only justifies “ungodly people,” then why does Scripture also state that Christ was justified in the Spirit?

Here is the problem; the hallmark of what is called “Christianity” is not about turning our backs on sin and walking righteously, but about be “counted” as “justified” by what Christ did. This means that their version of "justification" does not involve turning from sin, but rather being “justified” while remaining in sin. Their version of “repentance,” if mentioned is not about turning away from sin, but a ”change of mind” that is merely a “feeling sorry” for oneself. True repentance has no significance as they will openly confess that they will continue to sin because their definition of “justification” means that all their sins have already been paid for (past, present and “future”) while remaining ungodly. After all, only "Jesus" could be sinless because he is “God” and could not sin.

But seek first the kingdom of God and his RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things will be added to you. - Matthew 6:33

Unfortunately, they know nothing about justification by faith by their open denial.

The false gospel that is manifest almost everywhere today denies repentance, which is a walk of faith that brings a person to true justification in Yahshua. All you hear from them is “justification” by “blood,” yet they ignore the significance of Yahshua’s blood that brought the Holy Spirit to help a MAN walk by FAITH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS in all that he does. The Trinitarian must remove the “faith of Christ” and replace it with what "Jesus" has done for them, rather than believing what Yahshua DID through faith so that WE ALSO can do LIKEWISE.

To believe that "Jesus" is "God" negates the example of FAITH OF A MAN to follow. The Trinitarian “Jesus” does not need faith because he is God.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, BEING CONVINCED OF WHAT WE DO NOT SEE. – Hebrews 11:1

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the FAITH OF JESUS. - Revelation 14:12

The Trinity doctrine destroys having the faith of Christ by making him out to be God. “Justification” is just about having the penalty of sin paid for by the “blood,” yet continuing to remain ungodly. The Trinitarian will talk out of both sides of their mouths when pressed failing to understand that the deception of the antichrist doctrine that they vehemently defend by twisting and distorting Scripture through their indoctrinated presuppositions.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((John 8:56-59: Here Jesus refers to Himself as "I am," the same name the Father called Himself in Exodus 3:14.))

Yahshua had just said that if he testified about himself, his testimony is not true (John 5:31; 8:17-18), but that is precisely what Trinitarians have Yahshua doing at John 8:58 in direct contradiction to what he said.

Yahshua also had just said that if he glorified himself concerning who he is, his glory would mean absolutely nothing (8:54), but Trinitarians contradict Yahshua again insisting that he did indeed glorify himself at John 8:58, and he did so in the highest way possible, instead of meaning nothing as Yahshua insisted. Trinitarians contradict him and insist it means everything.

Trinitarians talk about of both sides of their mouth concerning Yahshua. On one hand, they will admit that Philippians 2:5-9 says that he made himself nothing and humbled himself. On the other hand, they have him glorifying himself as Yahweh Almighty.

Trinitarians also say the Jews wanted to stone Yahshua because they knew exactly what he was saying at John 8:58, but yet again, Trinitarians directly contradict Yahshua who had just said to the Jews that they could not understand what he was saying because they were not of God and were children of the devil (8:43-47).

Trinitarians love to say that when Yahshua used the words ego eimi, the Jews knew he was using the divine name of their God. However, this claim is ridiculous for several reasons.

Trinitarians presume that ego eimi was a Greek way of saying God's name "Yahweh." This is not true. If that is the case then Yahshua said, "Before Abraham was, Yahweh." This is absurd nonsense.

Are we also to believe Gabriel identified himself as Yahweh at Luke 1:19 when he said, "I am (ego eimi) Gabriel?"

At Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Yahshua, "I am (ego eimi) prepared to go to prison with you and to death?"

By using ego eimi was Peter also claiming to be Yahweh?

When John said, "I am (ego eimi) not the Christ," are we expected to believe it really means John the Baptist was saying that Yahweh is not the Christ (John 1:20)?

When the centurion said, "I am (ego eimi) a man under authority (Matthew 8:9), are we to believe this really meant, "Yahweh is a man under authority, "Yahweh is prepared to go to prison with you and to death?"

By using ego eimi was Peter also claiming to be Yahweh?

When John said, "I am (ego eimi) not the Christ," are we expected to believe it really means John the Baptist was saying that Yahweh is not the Christ? (John 1:20).

When the centurion said, "I am (ego eimi) a man under authority (Matthew 8:9), are we to believe this really meant, "Yahweh is a man under authority" and the centurion was claiming to be Yahweh?

When Yahshua said one of his disciples would betray him and Judas literally said, "Not I am (ego eimi) Lord?" are we to believe this really meant Judas was claiming to be Yahweh and Yahweh was going to betray Yahshua (Matthew 26:25)?

Why aren't Trinitrians being consistent with the term ego eimi in many other passages?

The implications of the Trinitarian claim are disturbingly ridiculous.

In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi," as Trinitarians are suggesting to everyone. God's divine name was "ego eimi ho ōn," which means "I am the being," or "I am the existence," or "I am the existent one," or some similar idea.

Also, English translations that read as, "I AM sent me to you" are not translating "ego eimi sent me to you" from the Greek. The Greek actually reads "ho ōn sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14).

In other words, it own testimony in this selfsame dialogue decisively demonstrates to us that the Trinitarian interpretation of John 8 is absolutely impossible, since their interpretations violently contradicts what Yahshua had just said.

Trinitarians are effectively demonstrating that they do not hear Yahshua anymore than the Jews did in this dialogue.

The Trinitarian claim is perched upon a farce that God's divine name in Greek is simply ego eimi, but it isn't.

Several people use the words ego eimi many times in the New Testament. These words were part of their common everyday vocabulary. The expression ego eimi was common to everyday language for Greeks just as the words "I am" are common to our everyday language in English. Nobody regarded ego eimi as two Greek words uniquely reserved as the divine name of their God. A blind man in the next chapter identifies himself by saying, "I am" (ego eimi).

Trinitarians are essentially trying to turn a routine language expression into the divine name of God to disingenuously suit their doctrinal purposes.

Observe how these two men identify themselves by saying, "ego eimi."

And Asahel pursued Abner, and as he went, he turned neither to the right hand nor to the left from following Abner. Then Abner looked behind him and said, “Is that you, Asahel?” And he answered, "I AM" (i.e. “It is I.”) (2 Samuel 2:19-20).

Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, “Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?” Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, "I AM" John 9:8-9

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((Let's look at Matthew 28:16-19. There the text says the disciples worshipped Christ. How is this not heresy? Jesus then proclaims that God has given Him all power and authority on heaven and on earth. Why would God give such power to a mere man?))

A very common claim by Trinitarians is to claim "Jesus is God" because we find both men worshiping Yahshua in the Bible.

In Greek, there are two words which have been translated as "worship." Neither one of these Greek words in themselves contain the whole constellation of ideas which are usually associated with the English word "worship." In many minds, the English word "worship" is something one only does to the one God, but Greek word proskyneo demonstrates why the Trinitarian claims of “worship” with this particular Greek word are false.

The claim is extremely disingenuous because the English word "worship" does by itself imply a special kind of devotion to a divine being Yahweh, however, what Trinitarian often do not disclose is that the English word "worship" is used to translate two different Greek words, proskuneo and latreuo. The first Greek word means simply to bow down before a higher authority. The second word refers to do divine service such as temple service. Most of the Trinitarian claims concern the word proskyneo, and we shall soon see that this word was used by the ancient Greek speaking people to refer to "worship" of ANY higher authority.

The are many, many examples in the Scriptures that show us how this Greek word is used. The corresponding Hebrew word isshachah if we translated the word proskyneo as "worship" then Lot worshiped two angels (Genesis 19:1-2), Abaham worshiped the Hittites (Genesis 23:7,12), Isaac blesses Jacob to have all nations on earth worship him (Genesis 27:29), Jacob worshiped Esau (Genesis 33:1-4), Joseph's brothers worship him (Genesis 27:9-10; 42:3-6; 26-28), Abigail worshiped David's servants (1 Samuel 25:40-41), Saul worshiped the dead man Samuel (1 Samuel 28:14), the sons of the prophets worshiped Elisha (2 Kings 2:15), David worshiped the Temple (Psalm 5:7) and all the people of Israel worshiped King David (1 Chronicles 29:20), as well as many more examples.

Trinitarians will even sometimes use the example of the Magi to insist that proskyneo worship of Yahshua necessarily demonstrates he was Yahweh, but this particular claim is absurd. The Magi were not Jews. They were pagan starwatchers who had seen the star; they were astrologers. We are told they came to bow down before a human King, not to Yahweh. They came to proskyneo worship a human infant not Yahweh. The reason they came to proskyneo worship this human being was because he was the King of the Jews. Again, we see that the reason they would do proskyneo worship was because they were respecting a higher authority.

You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only. - Matthew 4:10

Trinitarians can't seem to get these facts through their heads, or perhaps more rightly, they don't want to get the facts straight in their minds and so they ignore the facts and appeal to some of their other mistaken interpretations of Scripture. One example of this kind of blunder is Matthew 4:10 where Yahshua is being tempted by the devil to accept authority over the whole world if he will only bow down and worship him. Yahshua then responds by quoting the Law, "You will worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." As usual, Trinitarians are so blinded by their own desires they do not see the problems with their own claims.

First, if the Trinitarian interpretation of this verse had any merit, then Lot, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and David were all sinning when they proskyneo worshiped other identities and indeed David even worshiped the temple. Even further, according to the Trinitarian interpretation, the whole assembly of Israel then sinned when they proskyneo worshiped both YAHWEH and the King.

Secondly, Trinitarians completely fail to see the time frame when Yahshua made this statement. Yahshua was made lower than the angels, and in Hebrews 1:6, all the angels were to bow down before Yahshua only after Yahweh had raised him from the dead, after Yahweh gave him all authority in heaven and upon the earth, after Yahweh made him Lord, and after Yahweh sat him down at his right hand making him superior to the angels just as we read in Hebrews 1:4-5.

Furthermore, the word "only" in this verse does not qualify the word proskyneo, which is translated as "worship." It only qualifies the word latreuo, which is translated as "serve." Nowhere is Yahshua given latreuo worship, and even IF he did now did receive latreuo worship, the Trinitarian would still be still left with the time frame problem just mentioned above.

In his temptation, Yahshua was being tempted to DISOBEY God and rather do the devil's will. Yahshua’s response was that he would rather submit to his God and Father's authority and serve Him alone.

Another blind claim is to say that since the angels worshiped Yahshua (Hebrews 1:6) then he must be God Himself. However, this completely ignores the context which tells us precisely WHY they are to bow down in subjection to Yahshua. Being a man, the writers tells us that Yahshua was made lower than the angels (2:7) but now in his resurrection he is crowned with glory and honor (2:7) and in this way has become superior to the angels have inherited a better name than the angels (1:4). In his resurrection Yahweh made him "Lord" (Acts 2:36) giving him all authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) when he sat Yahshua down at his right hand. In this way, he became superior in position to the angels, his God anointing him to be above the angels (Heb 1:9). You have put all things in subjection under his feet. (Heb 2:8).

Yahshua is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, and having angels and authorities and powers subjected to Him. (1 Peter 3:22)

It is quite clear why angels are to proskyneo worship Yahshua. He now sits in a position higher than the angels having sat down on his Father's throne (Rev 3:21) and in this way he has become better than the angels.

Indeed, carefully regard the following:

Then King David said to the entire assembly... Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless YAHWEH your God." And all the assembly blessed YAHWEH, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and WORSHIPED YAHWEH and the King.... Then Solomon sat on the Throne of YAHWEH as King instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. All the officials, the mighty men, and also all the sons of King David pledged allegiance to King Solomon. (1 Chronicles 29).

Notice how King David had sat on "the throne of YAHWEH" and all the assembly of Israel proskyneo worshiped both YAHWEH and King David. Indeed, the entire first chapter of the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Yahshua has sat down at the right hand of Yahweh; Yahshua now sits on the throne of YAHWEH, and Yahshua has not only been given authority over Israel like his father David, but he was given authority over all things when Yahweh raised him from the dead. The one God has put his son in charge of everything. For this reason also, we are told that Yahweh has appointed a man through whom He, God, will judge all men (Acts 17:30-31).

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


Another way Trinitarians attempt to misrepresent the facts is by quoting the following passage:

"When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." (Acts 10:25-26).

The word here too is proskyneo. Here, Trinitarians often claim, is evidence that Peter knew that nobody was to bow down before anyone but Yahweh. However, this is reading an extraneous concept into the text. Peter is not a King, nor was there any reason for Cornelius to bow down to him. Cornelius was bowing down to Peter because Yahweh had given him a vision to send men to bring Peter to his household.

Hence, Cornelius was in a state where he perceived that Yahweh himself considered Peter to be a very important man, but Peter was taught by Yahshua to serve and not lord over anyone. Hence, Peter was taught by Yahshua to serve people and not have them bow down to him.

In the Scriptures, it is plain that there was nothing wrong with bowing down in subjection to higher authorities (proskyneo) other than Yahweh, however there was a big problem with bowing down before the host of heaven, or other gods. Yahweh forbids anyone to do this type of thing, but he forbids no one from bowing down before higher authorities. In fact, we read at Romans 13:1 that the authorities, which exist were established by Yahweh. To refuse to bow down before these authorities is to disobey Yahweh.

In his temptation, Yahshua was being tempted to DISOBEY God and rather do the devil's will. Yahshua response was that he would rather submit to his God and Father's authority and serve Him alone.

Another Trinitarian contraption is to quote this verse and interpret it as they please:

And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours." (Revelation 22:8-9).

Here again, we will find how Trinitarians are blinded with their own desires that they can't see the truth right in front of their own noses. They claim that this angel refused proskyneo worship because this is only due to God, but again Trinitarians are caught in their own lies when it is observed that Lot did indeed proskyneo worship the angels of YHWH who were sent by YHWH and there was no problem with it at all.

Indeed, during this act of submission, he refers to them as "Lords,” a nd even further yet, Trinitarians are caught with their foot in their mouth at Revelation 22:8-9.

Follow the speaker.

And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of THE ANGEL who showed me these things. But HE said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God. And HE said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Shall we conclude this angel, who had admonished John for bowing down before him, is the Alpha and Omega, or shall we conclude this was Yahshua who told John not to bow down before him and rather "Worship God?" Either way, the Trinitarian is caught in his own folly.

I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and worship (proskyneo) at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you (Revelation 3:8-9).

When we have all the facts before us the truth is plain to see. People all over the Bible are bowing down before higher authorities who are not Yahweh. The Israelites were not allowed to bow down before other gods, since doing so would be a gesture that they were submitting to the authority of these gods and not to Yahweh their God, a jealous God, and when we come to the New Testament, we find people appropriately bowing down before the higher authority Yahshua because he is the King of Israel and because he is the Son of God. He was royalty and humans bow down before royalty, their King, and rightly so. Yahweh has appointed all authorities in heaven and on earth, and when the man Yahshua was resurrected and ascended to the very throne of God, all creation is subject to him. We are told this resurrected man is above all other authority and rule with all the angels subject to him. Indeed, we are told that Yahweh made him "Lord" in his resurrection (Acts 2:30-36) and have given him all this authority (Matthew 28:18) having sat down at the right hand of Yahweh until he puts all his enemies under his feet.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((In Revelation 3:21 we see Jesus sitting down on the throne in Heaven ... that is, on the Father's throne. If Christ is a human, this not only deifies humanity but belittles The Lord. Thoughts?))

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. - Revelation 3:21

The book of Revelation reveals that Yahshua Messiah does not have his own throne in heaven, that is, one that is separate from the Father’s throne. There is only one throne that God the Father and Yahshua sit on in heaven, and they share it together.

If God is three co-equal Persons, as Trinitarians assert, shouldn’t we expect there to be three thrones in heaven, one for each of these three members of the Trinity?

The Bible never states this. The Bible does not say the Holy Spirit is enthroned in heaven.

Trinitarians insist that the Holy Spirit, which most call “the third Person/member of the Trinity,” is a full-fledged Person just as God the Father and “Jesus Christ” are Persons, yet of all of the heavenly scenes in the book of Revelation that portray a multitude of angels, twenty-four elders, and four living creatures all praising Yahweh the Father and Yahshua, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit even existing in heaven let alone sitting on a throne, or being worshipped. In all of the heavenly scenes of this book, which are in Revelation 4-19, the Holy Spirit is only mentioned once, in Revelation 14:13.

That blessed act of exaltation in which Yahweh the Father invited Yahshua to sit with him on his throne does not suggest that Yahshua is essentially equal with the Father, and thus possesses deity, rather, this exaltation magnifies Yahshua’s dependence upon Yahweh and manifests his subordination to Him.

If “Jesus” is God, co-equal with the Father in essence, we would expect “Jesus” to have his own separate throne in heaven, perhaps alongside of the Father’s throne and at the same height. The Father’s throne is the highest of all other thrones in heaven. That is why he is often described in the Bible as “the Most High” (Daniel 7.9, 25; Luke 1.32, 35). The Father’s throne belonging to him, and it being high and lifted up (Isaiah 6.1; 52.13), symbolizes his exalted rank, thus his superior dignity, over all, including Yahshua.

The existence of one throne in heaven for Yahweh, with Yahshua at his side affirms monotheism, thus nullifying Trinitarianism. God on his heavenly throne remains the center of all worship (Rev 7:11-17)

The most formidable image that refutes the notion of the Trinity is Yahweh the Father literally sitting on his heavenly throne with Yahshua sitting alongside him. If the Trinity was true, and it is not, one would expect all three of its members to either sit together on one throne, or have their own thrones in heaven. Either way, no manner of mental gymnastics could escape the allegation that such an image presents three Gods. Yet the Bible repeatedly states the concept that there is only one true and living God, Yahweh.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

((Titus 2:13, “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”))

A simple reading is self evident.

When we realize that Yahshua is going to come again in the glory of his Father, the truth of the matter becomes quite clear. Paul is referring to Yahshua's second coming, which we are awaiting. In the immediately preceding context we find Paul referring to "God our Savior," a reference to Yahweh the Father.

At verse 13, Paul is here telling us that we are awaiting "the appearing of the glory OF our great God AND Savior."

What is appearing?

What is appearing is the glory OF our great God AND Savior, the glory of THE FATHER, and that glory is Yahshua Messiah our blessed hope of glory.

"Awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ."

"For the Son of Man is going to come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with his angels" (Matthew 16:27).

In the previous verse Titus 2:12, the verse is talking about saying “no” to ungodliness while we wait for the appearing of Yahshua, who is the glory of Yahweh. Its purpose is not to expound the doctrine of the Trinity in any way, nor is there any reason to assume that Paul would be making a Trinitarian reference here. It makes perfect sense for Scripture to call Yahshua “the glory of God,” and for the Bible to exhort us to say “no” to ungodliness in light of the second coming of Yahshua, which will be quickly followed by the Judgment.

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Misfit Chick 4 months ago from Seattle, WA - USA - The WORLD

Very impressive debate. These questions are kind of for both of you from your different perspectives. I'm curious... What do you suppose Christians did for 300ish years without the bible before it came along? Have you heard about the Pauline controversy - which seems to be very similar to this hub, so I'll guess that is at least a partial 'yes'.

What do you think about so many people re-converting from Christianity into Kabbalah over that debate about Paul's (and Jesus') teachings - with the now-belief that Kabbalah is 'the real Jewish law' that Jesus came to fulfil?

Are you sure they didn't kill him for trying to bring a version of Kabbalah (along with the Kingdom of God being within) to the masses instead of the pagan religion of Christianity? What if Jesus died on the cross - just because that is the way they killed him; and the rest is a giant pagan story to unite masses of pagans across the Roman Empire ages ago?

Why do you only believe that the trinity is a pagan thing and not baptism or the resurrection? What happened to all the saints that supposedly rose when Jesus rose from the grave?

Why were hundreds of gospels (and people) destroyed after the state version of Christianity and the bible was created? Why does the man we know as Jesus share SO MANY similarities of his birth, death, resurrection, leadership and teachings with several previous pagan saviors (including the claim that he was 'the only son of god')?

What does this mean in John 3? man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. It sounds to LOTS of people that the spirit of Jesus is NOT separate from himself while he is here in the flesh.

And what about this part... the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit...

Jesus taught whatever it was he was preaching about to his disciples - and then sent them out to preach the same thing BEFORE he died. He taught them how to recognize and follow the kingdom within; and told them to leave places 'if their peace returned to them'. How could they 'help' Jesus in this way if they didn't ALREADY have the kingdom of god within them BEFORE Jesus died, rose again and supposedly distributed 'his spirit' among them and us all - as previous pagan saviors had done? They even cast out demons and healed this sick before they 'had his spirit'.

Why is there no Sinner's Prayer recorded in the bible if it was so important for salvation? God gave the Isrealites the ten commandments in the form of stone tablets TWICE so that they wouldn't miss out on anything...

They killed Jesus for teaching people how to connect with God themselves without pagan rituals - so that they could know the truth about the reality of their existence; and how to do both material & spiritual things for themselves.

Romans 8:1-2 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (your christos being the Kingdom of God within) has set you free from the [pagan] law of sin and of death."

Neil Braithwaite 4 months ago

@ DR CHE (And Aaron) - Here is a link to a blog of mine that has an outline for a book that I am currently researching. There will be misspellings and such but I felt it necessary to give you another perspective on the argument against the trinity. I am basing my arguments on logic and reason of scripture with regard to the person of Yahshua and Yahweh.

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Dr CHE Sadaphal 4 months ago from New York, NY


"Trinitarian[s] love to talk about their “belief in Christ,” but fail in their understanding of what [they] are to believe about him … Here again, we will find how Trinitarians are blinded with their own desires that they can't see the truth right in front of their own noses …"

Well, first, what experience has taught me is that other people are never targets to be vanquished but potential future allies who may in fact not be able to "see" something, but that's where persuasion comes in. (The particular reasons for their "lack" of vision is always something to be discovered in the process of dialogue.) This is particularly relevant to non-believers but of course also applies to people in the faith. So, speaking for myself, I cannot claim that my interpretation is always irrefutably and absolutely "right" and above all others, because that would mean I have mastered God's Word and can inform God what He really means. On the other hand, what I can do is let Scripture interpret Scripture, allow the whole cannon of the Bible to interpret the parts, and look toward those theological minds smarter than myself to do the heavy lifting when things seemingly get confusing.

Second, what you will find in all of my comments is the complete absence of the word Trinity. All of my queries are directed at the theological assertion made on the exclusive humanity of Jesus. You are of course free to make points, but a defense need not be made against a theological assertion that never entered into the debate.

Third, at the end of the day, at least for me, history is filled with exemplary human beings who did great things: MLK, Jr., Gandhi, Newton, Origen, etc. So, if Jesus was—at the core—just a man, then why should anyone pay any more attention to Him than these other folks? After all, Judaism and Islam both recognize Jesus as a reputable "man" without any special theological meaning. They actually share the "Jesus is just a man" philosophy and the result is two drastically different faiths altogether.

Fourth, the conversation is beginning to go in multiple different directions, so my comments will narrow in on the concern of the exclusive humanity of Christ.

Onward to the Book of John …

So in regards to your comments on the quotation of Jesus saying “I AM” in John:

There is a large consensus amongst Bible scholars and theologians which agrees that Christ saying, “I AM” is an assertion of His deity with equivalence to what was said in Exodus 3:14 (and Isaiah 41:4, 43:10 and 46:4). A great, quick book that makes a comprehensive case of this is the classic by P.B. Harner, “The ‘I Am’ of the Fourth Gospel” (1970). Of course, you don’t have to take my word for it. One of the most influential theologians of all-time, Augustine, wrote:

“...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand.” (link:

Similar sentiments on the deity of Christ have been expressed by Martin Luther in his "Sermons on the Gospel of John” (1959) and more contemporary Christian thought leaders such as R. C. Sproul (

There is also Biblical response: Jesus says, “I AM” in John 8:58. All throughout John chapter 8 Jesus makes statements like, “I am the light of the world” (v. 12) and “I proceeded forth and have come from God” (v. 42). The text tells us that none of these statements produced a violent response from the Jews. What did cause a violent response was when Jesus said, “I am” which was interpreted by the Jews as Jesus claiming to be God. How do we know this? Because the Bible tells us so. John 10:30-33 says (Jesus is speaking to start):

“I and the Father are one. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, ***but for blasphemy;*** and ***because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God"***

(John 10:31 references back to 8:39)

Consider also the Jewish response in John 5:17-18:

“In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, ***making himself equal with God.”***

So certainty, there are people now, 2,000 years later, that may interpret what they thought Jesus was said. But the Bible tells us what the Jews at the time thought, and what Jesus explicitly said was so offensive, then wanted to kill Him because at the time blasphemy was a capital offense. In fact, if Christ was not God, all Jesus had to do was say, “Hey guys! Just kidding. I’m not God. Please don’t stone me!”

If what Jesus said was not interpreted as “I am God,” indeed, there would be no reason to kill Him, because even saying something as bold as “I can forgive sins” was not a capital offense. After all, when we contemplate the reasons why Jesus was put to death, at the top of the list were His claims to deity such as here in John 8:58 and, for example, when he “acts like He’s God” by re-defining rules that God made (e.g. Sabbath rules in Matthew 12:11-12).

John is a great book to talk about Christology because he has view of “high Christology.” For example, there are places where John, the same person who wrote John 8:58, writes about the divine character of Jesus. For example, on His power over eternity (4:13-14, 6:40, 11:25-26) and His heavenly origin (3:13, 8:36, 16:28, 17:5, c.f. Isa. 42:8).

There is also a literary response: you are right in saying that there are many places in the New Testament where someone says I am [insert something here]. Similarly today, if you asked me, “What’s your name?” my response would be, “I am Elijah.” In my answer the “I am” has a predicate (Elijah). If my response was just, “I am” that would be very strange indeed. What makes Christ’s “I am” response unique is the absence of a predicate. Even more, He says, “Before Abraham was born, I am.” That is, before a human being who had already been dead for hundreds of years, Jesus says, “I am,” a present-tense statement.

P.S. Which reminds me: Please someone (anyone!) help and explain why the human Jesus didn't have a human dad?

Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 4 months ago from The Ekklesia

"Being human, was Jesus corrupted by original sin?"

Depends on what you think original sin is. I don't believe I was born with it and neither was Jesus. One, of the differences between Jesus and myself is I in time chose to sin, and he didn't. I'll stop there because I have no idea what you believe about the "doctrine of original sin".

Neil Braithwaite 4 months ago

@ Dr Che - Please explain why the human Adam and Eve had neither a human dad or mother? Does that make them both Gods?

Why is Yahshua called the "second Adam?"

If you can answer that question you can answer the question you posed about Jesus' "human dad."

BTW - Can you tell us the nature of your "Doctorate?"

Neil Braithwaite 4 months ago

@ Dr CHE - I researched and found who I believe is you at:

I appreciate your open mindedness into the person of Yahshua Messiah. As you are described as a "voracious reader" in your profile, please take the time to read the two books that I linked as well as the two websites in my previous comment.

Blessings on your journey into Yahweh's truth.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

I don’t see Trinitarian’s as targets to be vanquished, but I cut straight to the point and may offend some. I have presented evidence in this article and many others that the Trinity doctrine is a serious deception.

For if someone comes and proclaims ANOTHER JESUS different from the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the one you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough! -2 Corinthians 11:4

This other “Jesus” is “God the Son” that John identified in Revelation 13, as the evidence presents in the article thereof.

((…what you will find in all of my comments is the complete absence of the word Trinity. All of my queries are directed at the theological assertion made on the exclusive humanity of Jesus. You are of course free to make points, but a defense need not be made against a theological assertion that never entered into the debate.))

The theological assertion was based your article, “What Christians Should Know (#WCSK): The Five Core Doctrines of the Christian Faith,”

You have a picture that states the five core doctrines. Numbers 1 and 2 state:



((So, if Jesus was—at the core—just a man, then why should anyone pay any more attention to Him than these other folks?))

I have already answered this question already in my above comments.

((All throughout John chapter 8 Jesus makes statements like, “I am the light of the world”))

The dialogue between Yahshua and the Jews began when Yahshua declared, "I am the light of the world." God the Father is Light (1 John 1:5) and the Father abiding in Yahshua did the works (1:10). Now let us remember that when Yahshua said, "I am the light of the world," he spoke the WORDS OF THE FATHER as he reminds the Jews in this discourse (8:26,28,47). Therefore, whoever receives the testimony of Yahshua has certified that God is true (3:33;14:24). The Father was the True Light, which was coming into the world and John the Baptist was testifying about that Light (1:6-9). In this way, Yahshua DECLARED THE FATHER (1:18) in terms of all the things he said and all the things he did. The works that I do in my Father’s name, these testify of me (10:25; 5:36).

The Father abiding in Yahshua did the works (14:10-11). Yahshua declared the Father who is Light by doing his Father's will, saying what the Father gave him to say, doing what the Father gave him to do. The Father who is Light was explained/expressed through Yahshua, and for that reason Yahshua could say, "I am the Light of the world," that is, he explained/expressed the Father who is that true Light, which was coming into the world as John the Baptist witnessed about that Light. The Father existed before Abraham, and his will for the work of the Messiah existed before Abraham. Now that will of the Father was being manifested, fulfilled.

Abraham rejoiced to see Yahshua’s day. Yahshua is the Lamb who had been slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). Yahweh had predestined the Lamb to be slain on a cross. Yahshua was the promised seed, which Yahweh had promised to Abraham:

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by FAITH, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." Galatians 3:8.

By faith, Abraham was "looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:9). In faith, Abraham believed in a better home, a heavenly home (11:16-21). Abraham's seed had been promised (3:16-18) and Yahshua was the fulfillment of this promise. The man Yahshua was a reality from the time Yahweh promised him to Abraham and that is true because it was Yahweh who made the promise. Indeed, this was a reality before Abraham came to be. He is the Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world.

The Jews had asked Yahshua if he was greater than Abraham. In their eyes, no man could be greater than Abraham and none of them would say they were greater than Abraham, but before is greater and Yahshua’s answer was a Yes. He had been predestined from the foundation of the world and Abraham rejoiced to see his Day, the Light of God. He was greater than Abraham and that meant Yahshua was greater than these Jewish leaders and that was something that made their blood boil.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


((What did cause a violent response was when Jesus said, “I am” which was interpreted by the Jews as Jesus claiming to be God.))

The Trinitarian claim is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Yahshua because he was claiming to be God (John 8:59), but that is an assumption. There is a different explanation that is supported by better evidence: the Jews picked up stones to kill Yahshua because they understood he was claiming to be the Messiah. At Jesus’ trial, the High Priest asked, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matt. 26:63). First of all, we should notice that no one at the trial asked Yahshua if he were God. However, if they thought he had been claiming to be God, which would have certainly been a question they would have asked. The High Priest asked Yahshua in very clear terms if he was the Christ because that is what the Jews knew Yahshua was claiming to be.

Second, when the Jews heard Yahshua’s clear answer (“Yes, it is as you say”), they accused him of blasphemy and said, “He is worthy of death” (Matt. 26:66). They felt he was worthy of death in the record in John 8, but in that record they picked up stones to kill him, while after hearing his “blasphemy” at the trial, they took him to Pilate and got the Romans to execute him.

Have you ever thought that the Jewish leaders were LYING when making their accusations against Jesus?

“The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.” - John 10:33

Is this assertion really true?

No, Yahshua tells them the real reason why they are going to stone him in the previous verse.

Jesus answered them, “I have shown you MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER; FOR WHICH OF THEM ARE YOU GOING TO STONE ME? – John 10:32

Are you going to believe the lies of the Jewish leaders, or the words of Yahshua?

Are we to believe that Yahshua had a demon too?

Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “YOU HAVE A DEMON! Who is seeking to kill you?” - John 7:19-20

It should be obvious that the Jewish crowd were LIARS, but the Trinitarian wants to use false testimony from the Jewish crowd to support their false claim that Yahshua is God. The Jewish leaders cause, or reason to kill Yahshua was false. In fact, Yahshua gave the real reason why the Jews wished to kill him.

The world cannot hate you, but IT HATES ME BECAUSE I TESTIFY ABOUT IT THAT ITS WORKS ARE EVIL. – John 7:7

Has not Moses given you the law? YET NONE OF YOU KEEPS THE LAW. WHY DO YOU SEEK TO KILL ME?” – John 7:19

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and DOES NOT STAND IN THE TRUTH, BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, FOR HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES. – John 8:43-44

The real reason the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus was he exposed who they were, as LIARS AND HYPOCRITES!

Are we to side with and agree with liars and hypocrites in a desperate attempt to prove Yahshua is God?

Jesus consistently rebuked these men by calling them adulterous and evil people.

((“I and the Father are one))

I and the Father are one.” – John 10:30

If Yahshua and the Father are one means that "Jesus" is God according to Trinitarian dogma, then we too are “God” according to these verses.

That they may ALL be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that THEY MAY BE ONE even AS WE ARE ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. - John 17:21-23

Is Yahshua really saying that because He is one with the Father that he is Yahweh?

No, Yahshua is praying to the Father in hopes all mankind will be one in unity with the Father just as he is. Today, by God’s grace through the man Yahshua, we too can be one with the Father just as he is.

((“In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, ***making himself equal with God.”***))

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself EQUAL with God. - John 5:18

The immediate context is about how Yahshua was working and his Father was working (5:17). In this sense, they were equal because both Father and Son were involved in these same deeds. The following context also clarifies to us how Yahshua was equal to God. He came in the name of the Father and did the Father's works (4:34). Indeed, the Father abiding in him did the works (14:10). As the representative that Yahweh sent of Himself, Yahshua was equal to God in this particular respect since he acted on Yahweh's behalf. He came in the name of God the Father. However, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Divine sonship is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of Yahweh. "Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14; John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory and did not come in his own name; he came in the name of the only God his Father.

The Father is GREATER than I. - John 14:28

It should be quite plain that being equal with another person does not mean you also share their identity. In fact, it means just the opposite. To be equal to someone else means you are not that someone else by identity. If Yahshua is equal with Yahweh that does not mean we should conclude he is God by identity. In fact, we must conclude otherwise. If he is equal to Yahweh, it means he is not God. God is someone else.

Yahshua was being ACCUSED of making himself equal with God the Father. Anyone can easily see that it would then be quite absurd to claim equality with God the Father because that would would mean he IS God the Father. In this sense, equality with God does not mean you are Yahweh.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


((Jesus says, “I am,” a present-tense statement.))

As I had explained in my previous comment, in order for the Trinitarian argument that Yahshua’s “I am” (ego eimi) statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” (ego eimi ho ōn) statement in Exodus 3:14. It is not.

“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν).” And He said “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM (ὁ ὢν) has sent me to you.”” - Exodus 3:14

Thus, by reading Exodus 3:14, we see that Yahweh clearly claims his title to be I AM (ὁ ὢν) when He says to Moses speaking of Himself: “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM (ὁ ὢν) has sent me to you.”

Yahweh’s title would then not be ego eimi (ἐγώ εἰμι), but rather ho ōn (ὁ ὢν).

The title ho ōn (ὁ ὢν) exclusively belongs to the Almighty God, Yahweh, is seen clearly in Revelation 16:5. In this verse we read:

And I heard the angel of the waters saying: “You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. - Revelation 16:5

Obviously, “The One who is and who was and who is to be” is Yahweh, the Heavenly Father, as we may have confirmation by reading the entire chapter of Revelation 16.

The Greek manuscript never used ego eimi (ἐγώ εἰμι) in the verse. We rather find used the terms ho ōn (ὁ ὢν).

καὶ ἤκουσα τοῦ ἀγγέλου τῶν ὑδάτων λέγοντος Δίκαιος Κύριε, εἶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὅσιος ὅτι ταῦτα ἔκρινας

Then, if John’s intention was to let everyone know that Yahshua Messiah was claiming to be Yahweh, the Almighty God, he would have used the terms ho ōn (ὁ ὢν) instead of ego eimi (ἐγώ εἰμι).

Yahshua doesn’t claim to be Yahweh, the Almighty One. His purpose is elsewhere and he has no intent to declare himself to be the omnipotent and all-powerful Heavenly God as some claim.

((For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - John 8:24b))

Trinitarians cite this verse to try to show the necessity of believing their doctrine. They supply the word “God” after “I am,” not from the text, but from the dictates of their doctrine, and make the verse read: “For if you believe not that I am [God], ye shall die in your sins.”

This is a distortion of the biblical text as a whole, and the Gospel of John.

The purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in 20:31: “But these are written that you may believe that JESUS IS [“God”? No!] THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, not that he is “God the Son,” and that by believing you may have life in his name.” In light of the explicitly stated purpose of the Gospel of John, teaching that unless one believes in Christ’s “deity,” he will die in his sins is unwarranted.

The true meaning of the text is that if one does not believe that Yahshua is the Christ, he will die in his sins, and this teaching can be found in a number of scriptures in the New Testament. Obviously, if one chooses to not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Yahshua Messiah, he will die in his sins. In John 13:19, Yahshua said to disciples at the last supper, “I am telling you this before it [his betrayal] happens so that when it does happen you will believe that I am he.”

((Please someone (anyone!) help and explain why the human Jesus didn't have a human dad?))

The reason Yahshua (last Adam) did not have a human dad is the same reason Adam (first Adam) did not have a human dad. They were created for a unique purpose. Adam was the human firstborn of creation, and Yahshua the human firstborn of the new creation who showed the Way that we can become born of the spirit too.

Thus it is written, “The first MAN Adam became a LIVING BEING”; the last Adam (MAN) became a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. - 1 Corinthians 15:45-48

For as by the one MAN’S disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one MAN’S obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:19

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Dr CHE Sadaphal 4 months ago from New York, NY


You checked out my hub and quoted me! I appreciate you stopping by.

The note about repetition is noted. So, I think we've reached the point in the dialogue now where it has become clear that one person is not going to persuade the other in the comment section of Hubpages. Hence, I won't add anything more to the final notes I made on the Book of John in my last comment.

Certainly, what I appreciate is the the insight I have gained from the commentary and learning about the unique perceptions of some, and how those perceptions play out in everyday life.

I bid you well.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Misfit Chick,

Thank-you for adding to the discussion, and all the questions. I hope you don't mind that I am not going to answer every one of your questions, but I will hone in one that is relevant to the theme, and one that is not. Good questions!

You asked,

((What does this mean in John 3? man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. It sounds to LOTS of people that the spirit of Jesus is NOT separate from himself while he is here in the flesh.))

The Jews would not have taken John’s words to mean that Christ “incarnated.” It was common for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source. For example, James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Most followers of Yahshua experience blessing by way of other people or events, but realize that the ultimate source of the blessings was from Yahweh. We should apply John’s words the same way we understand James’ words—that Yahweh is the source of Yahshua Messia, which He was. Christ was God’s plan, and then Yahweh directly fathered Yahshua.

There are also verses that say Yahshua was “sent from God,” a phrase that shows that He is the ultimate source of what is sent. John the Baptist was a man “sent from God” (John 1:6), and it was he who said that Yahshua “comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31). When Yahweh wanted to tell the people that He would bless them if they gave their tithes, He told them that He would open the windows of “heaven” and pour out a blessing (Mal. 3:10). Of course, everyone understood the idiom being used, and no one believed that Yahweh would literally pour things out of heaven. They knew that the phrase meant that Yahweh was the origin of the blessings they received.

Still another example is when Yahshua was speaking and said, “John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven or from men?” (Matt. 21:25). Of course, the way that John’s baptism would have been “from heaven” was if Yahweh was the source of the revelation. John did not get the idea on his own, it came “from heaven.” The verse makes the idiom clear: things could be “from heaven,” i.e., from Yahweh, or they could be “from men.” The idiom is the same when used of Yahshua. Yahshua is “from God,” “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that Yahweh is his Father and thus his origin.

The idea of coming from God, or being sent by Yahweh is also clarified by Yahshua's words in John 17. He said, “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world” (John 17:18).

We understand perfectly what Yahshua meant when he said, “I have sent them into the world.” He meant that he commissioned us, or appointed us. No one thinks that we were in heaven with Yahshua and incarnated into the flesh. Yahshua said, “As you have sent me, I have sent them.” So, however we take the phrase that Christ sent us, that is how we should understand the phrase that God sent His Son.

((Why is there no Sinner's Prayer recorded in the bible if it was so important for salvation? God gave the Isrealites the ten commandments in the form of stone tablets TWICE so that they wouldn't miss out on anything...))

The Sinner's Prayer is a canned prayer that is recited in drone like fashion repeated word-for-word as a “prayer.”

The scripted words of the “sinner’s prayer” do not reflect the individual, nor is it the words of the person either. It is a pre-packaged ritual that is recited to get something out of “God.” People become parrots at the altars of men based on tradition.

People who partake in this canned declaration usually walk away with unconfessed sin and open themselves up to the condemnation of Satan that is meant to continually oppress them. They do not grow spiritually, but actually digress into a delusion that they have “achieved” salvation, but the fact is, they have not even started their walk with Yahshua. They are pointed to a four-walled social club that promotes self and "salvation" through carnal means, instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal their sin, acknowledge it, and confess it, and then overcome it by walking in Kingdom principles. Instead, salaried membership specialists upon the podium lead many right into the hands of Satan through their sophistry.

Without confession, there is no cooperation with the Spirit of Truth that works in each individual. It is not through some prepackaged, canned tradition ritual. The “sinner’s prayer” is not some man-made script to recite becuase it is nowhere to be found in the activities among the early ekklesia in the NT.

The “sinner’s prayer” is a man-made device, which is a fraudulent practice to control others. It is not the road to life, but one that leads into spiritual manipulation and control of others by bowing down in front of professional clergy who want you to accept them as salaried mediators between you and Yahweh.

The true Gospel is an admission and confession of our own disobedience towards our Father in heaven. By His grace through Yahshua Messiah, we are given the ability through the Holy Spirit to follow the call and the Way that has been given to us walking in the principles of the Kingdom of God, not walking in the religious traditions of man.

In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began - Titus 1:2

So that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:7

God Bless.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Dr CHE Sadaphal,

It has been a pleasure answering your questions.

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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


The link looks like it is becoming a great resource for inquiring minds.


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PlanksandNails 4 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


As you know, the doctrine of original sin is tied to the false Trinity doctrine that "Jesus" is "God the Son."

We know Yahshua was a 100% man being born of a woman. He was the seed of Abraham, the offspring of David, descended from Adam.

Yahshua being a man is fully taught in Scripture.

To teach the Catholic doctrine that men are born sinners is to come to the conclusion that Yahshua was also was born a sinner, unless you deny he is human.

Norine Williams 2 months ago

Planks, Why are you so UNSPIRITUAL? GOD is "ONE SPIRIT!" We don't have "two" GODS! The Prophet Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 JESUS would be "called" ...THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING "FATHER,..." Why argue anything else?

Why do you also deny I Timothy 3:16?

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Norine, I never said I believe in two Gods. I believe in the one and only God, Yahweh and in His Son Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah. I do not believe that Jesus is the Father, as there is nowhere in Scripture that this is stated. Those who believe in the oneness/modalist doctrine cherry-pick verses out of context and use ambiguous Scripture references as “proof” of their false doctrine, just like the one you have used in your comment here. Your "interpretation" of Isaiah 9:6 simply falls flat because it reveals you are imposing your false doctrine into the text showing that you have not rightly divided the word.

Let’s look at Isaiah 9:6:

For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given;

and the government shall be upon his shoulder,

and his name shall be called

Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD,


In the culture of the Old Testament, anyone who began anything, or was very important to something was called its “father.” For example, because Jabal was the first one to live in a tent and raise livestock, the Bible says, “he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock” (Genesis 4:20). Furthermore, because Jubal was the first inventor of musical instruments, he is called, “the father of all who play the harp and flute” (Genesis 4:21).

Scripture is not using “father” in the sense of literal father, or ancestor in these verses because both these men were descendants of Cain, and all their descendants died in the Flood. “Father” was being used in the cultural understanding of either one who was the first to do something, or someone who was important in some way. Because the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it, he is called “the father of the coming age.”

The phrase “Mighty God” can also be better translated. Although the word “God” in the Hebrew culture had a much wider range of application than it does in ours, the average reader does not know, or understand that. Readers familiar with the Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God’s authority can be called “god.” Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god,” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. A better translation for the English reader would be “mighty hero,” or “divine hero.”

A clear example that the word translated “God” in Isaiah 9:6 can be used of powerful earthly rulers is Ezekiel 31:11, referring to the Babylonian king. This can be clearly seen by comparing Isaiah 9:6 (el = “God”) with Ezekiel 31:11 (el = “ruler”). If calling Jesus el, made him God, then the Babylonian king would be God also. Isaiah is speaking of God’s Messiah and calling him a mighty ruler, which of course he will be.

The phrase translated “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 in the Hebrew is el gibbor. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used in Ezekiel 32:21 where dead “heroes” and mighty men are said, by the figure of speech personification, to speak to others. The phrase in Ezekiel is translated “the strong among the mighty” in the KJV and NASB. The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader,” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

Proper context illuminates great truth about the verse, and also shows that there is no justification for believing that it refers to Jesus as God, but rather to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those in distress.” All war and death will cease, and “every warrior’s boot…will be destined for burning” (v. 5).

How will this come to pass?

The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born and to us a son is given” (v. 6). There is no hint that this child will be “God.” Even reputable scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God could never be, and what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (v. 7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne, but God’s Messiah, “the Son of David” could (Matthew 9:27).

As you can see that a more in depth study of the verse you referenced in its context reveals that it does not refer to Jesus being God, or the Father, but of the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


Lets take a look at 1 Timothy 3:16

Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting only from the King James Version reading of this verse. Despite the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a certain corruption, people continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.

When the Christological controversies were occurring in the fourth century, we do not see even one solitary person making a reference to the "God was manifested in the flesh" version of this verse as evidence for identifying Jesus as "God." This fact does itself undeniably demonstrate it was unknown to them. If indeed 1 Timothy 3:16 really said "God was manifest in the flesh," we can most definitely be sure this passage would have most been brought forward as "Exhibit A." Yet, not one soul mentions it even though this passage more than any other would have supported the teaching that the incarnate Christ was "God." The fact is that it was never mentioned once in the myriads of documentation that exists illustrating what was argued in these debates. There is a good reason that no one in the fourth century ekklesia ever mentioned the passage. The word "God" did not appear in 1 Timothy 3:16 until much later. It first appears in patristic writings and manuscripts after Trinitarian dogma was developed and is an obvious later alteration. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have the word "God" (theos) in 1 Timothy 3:16, which is why modern Bible translations do not have the word "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16 either.


Now because this verse is known to be a scribal error, contemporary Trinitarian Greek scholars, who have access to numerous manuscripts have not been able to perpetuate this error any longer into English translations, despite the passions of some who desire the word "God" to appear in this verse at the expense of truth. Let us look at some of the major translations of this passage and note how Trinitarian Greek scholars themselves acknowledged the scribal error:

He appeared in a body (NIV)

He who was manifested in the flesh (ASV)

He who was revealed in the flesh (NASB)

Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

He was manifested in the flesh (RSV)

He was revealed in flesh (NRSV)

Which was manifested in the flesh (Douey-Rheims)

He was revealed in the flesh (NET)

He was manifested in the flesh (ESV)

Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

Quite plainly, Trinitarian translation scholars are admitting this version of the verse is not authentic. One then wonders why Trinitarians as well as oneness/modalists so often continue to appeal to it.


If we entertain all possibilities, the remote and the more certain, there are actually three possibilities in this text: ho ("which"), hos ("who"), and "theos ("God/deity"). The first two are attested in early manuscripts. Thus one must look elsewhere to find which one is the one Paul originally wrote.


We actually have a pretty likely idea how this corruption happened. Scribal copyists routinely used a contracted form of the Greek word for "God" called a "nomem sacrum" (pl. "nomina sacra") that was used at a very early date in Christian history for sacred names. The Greek word for "God" is theos written in the Greek alphabet as qeoV, or QEOS. The copyist abbreviations correspondingly took the form qV, or QS, with a faint overscore line stroke over the abbreviation (see Figure 1). These strokes would often become quite faint in the copies. Now the Greek word for "who" is the word hos which is written in Greek as oV, or OS. Now notice the similarity between these two words QS, and OS, and also remember they were written by hand and would not be written so perfectly and distinctly as the typed letters on this page.

With the exception of one penstroke, the Omicron (O) and Theta (Q) are nearly identical. It would be very easy to make a mistake here when copying from one manuscript to another and if that is what happened then it would be excusable, but it would also be very easy for an overzealous scribe to suppose he was doing God a favor and execute a forgery here by changing the manuscript and the handwritten O (Omicron) into a Q (Theta) with a stroke of his pen and thereby completely change the meaning of the verse. It would be also easy to change the word ho to theos by adding a stroke and an "s," and it would be far more difficult to do it the other way around without getting caught (removing the stroke). There is also evidence that ink may have bled through the other side of the media and made it appear to a copyist to read QS because the bleeding ink added what appeared to be a line where OS had been written. Whether or not it was an honest copying mistake, or a forgery, it is very likely that the error was produced in this manner.



The internal evidence also reveals the truth of the matter. First, the passage does not say "in the flesh" with a definite article, but simply "in flesh." The word eusebias translated as "godliness" is difficult to translate into English with a word that exacts the Greek intention. The word "godliness" is a justified translation of the word and it is about as good as we can do with the selection of English words we have available. However, it does tend to over translate the Greek scope of the word. This is a common problem when translating from one language to another. The Greek word does not precisely mean what the English word "godly" tends to convey, but it means something like reverent piety in a worshipful sense. The Greek words for "God" and "godliness," which are theos and eusebias are not related word cognates as they are in English. This can also tend to be misleading to English readers who might errantly conclude the word "godliness" in this passage is intended to correlate with the word "God" in the KJV translation. However, in Greek the word eusebias and theos do not bear that correlation. Also, there were also no sentence ending periods in the Greek text. If the word "which" is the proper rendering, the passage actually says in the Greek, "great is the mystery of godliness which was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit..." However, if the word "God" is used we have an abrubt break in the flow of the sentence, "great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifest in flesh, justified in spirit..." The rendering which uses the word "who" or "which" is much smoother and natural. Not only so, it is typical Pauline style to compose run-on sentences.

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author



And there is yet more, which reveals this verse was corrupted. Paul here is talking about the mystery. In 2 Timothy he says, "God who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time (2 Tim 1:8-9).

This is nearly identical to what he says in Romans, "Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery of the times of the ages which was kept hidden" (Rom 16:25).

And in Ephesians he says, "having made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for the economy of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth" (Eph 1:9-10) and "to enlighten all as to the communion of the mystery which has been hidden from the ages who created all things in Christ Jesus" (3:9) and "this is a great mystery but I speak of Christ and the church" (5:32). Paul desires "to make known the mystery of the gospel" (6:19) which is he also calls "the mystery of Christ" (Colossians 4:3).

The mystery of the ages is Christ himself revealed to us by God. He tells us in Colossians, "the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27; see 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:7). God's mystery appeared in flesh and Christ is that fleshly manifestation of His mystery.


Another problem associated with the "God" rendering is that if we just keep reading it would then say that God was justified in the Spirit. It makes absolutely no sense to say God was justified in the Spirit, God was seen by angels, God was preached among the Gentiles, God was believed on in the world, and God was received into glory."


At Colossians 1:27 we read, "the glory of the mystery among the nations which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." The relative pronoun used here is the masculine relative pronoun hos, which refers back to the neuter noun "mystery." This is nearly identical to 1 Timothy 3:16, which ends with the phrase "taken up in glory." Hence, we can see that hos is the likely relative pronoun to be used at 1 Timothy 3:16.


Some people have sometimes insisted the gender of the pronoun in question necessitates in Greek grammar the "God" rendering. This is highly misleading. Pronouns do not always refer to the immediate antecedent, but sometimes to the contextual antecedent.


Are you appealing to a version of a text which is known to be a scribal error?

Are you aware that in a certain translation scholars admit this is a scribal error?

We have a pretty good idea that this error was accomplished by either (1) one additional stroke of a pen changing the Greek word from "who" to "God" or (2) by two additional strokes of a pen changing the Greek word from "which" to God, or (3) by ink bleeding through the media.

Your version of the verse cannot be found absolutely anywhere in early Christian writings before the Trinity was developed. Considering the fourth and fifth century men were having a crisis in the church concerning the nature of Christ and his relationship to God, it is preposterous to claim this version of the verse is valid and they overlooked this passage.

No early manuscripts contain this version of the verse. The corrupted version of this text appears only after the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the fourth/fifth century.

The Greek grammar and immediate context also indicates this rendering is wrong.

So when we review all the evidence the solution is plain to see. The historical evidence indicates the word "God" was not there before the late fourth century at the earliest. The manuscript evidence indicates the word "God" was not in the original text. The grammar and the immediate context also indicate the KJV reading is not authentic. Christ is the mystery in question which is why the passage should read, "great is the mystery of godliness who/which was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit..." If "which" is correct, it refers back the mystery; if "who" is correct, it refers to Christ.

Very obviously then the passage reads smoothly and makes total sense with the rest of Scripture by using either the word "who," or "which" which are attested in early manuscripts.

Your reference to 1 Timothy 3:16 is in error, thus making your doctrine in error.

Norine Williams 2 months ago

Why then did the angel appear to Mary and tell her that "The Holy Spirit (aka God/Jesus) would come upon her and she would bear a child" (Luke 1:35)? HOLY SPIRIT insemination and is why I Timothy 3:16 "GOD was manifested in the flesh!"

Who shed HIS blood for us? JESUS CHRIST! Why then does I John 3:16 say "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because HE laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren?"

Acts 20:28 also says "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the CHURCH OF "GOD," which he hath purchased with HIS OWN blood?"

John 1:14 "And the Word (GOD) became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw HIS "GLORY" (Which HE operates in!), the glory AS OF the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth?"

John17:15 "Now, Father, GLORIFY me with the "GLORY" which I had WITH YOU "BEFORE" the world was?"

II Peter 1:17 "For when He received honor and "GLORY" from "GOD" the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the MAJESTIC "GLORY." This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased?"

There are Scriptures after Scriptures which show GOD operates in "GLORIES" and JESUS CHRIST was HIS " the radiance of HIS "GLORY" and the exact presentation of HIS nature, and upholds all things by the WORD of HIS POWER when HE made purification of sins, HE sat down at the right hand (not "literally" but in "righteousness") of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3)!

"Therefore when he had gone out, JESUS SAID, "Now is the Son of man "GLORIFIED" in HIM, if GOD is "GLORIFIED" in HIM, GOD will also "GLORIFY" HIM "IN HIMSELF," and will "GLORIFY" HIM immediately" (John 13:31-32)!

II Corinthians 4:6 "For GOD, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give Light of the "knowledge" of the "GLORY" of "GOD" in the "FACE" of "CHRIST!"

"GLORIES!" GOD operates in "GLORIES" and JESUS CHRIST was the "RADIANCE of HIS "GLORY!" Or the GREATEST ALLEGORY IN SCRIPTURE and it's "Spiritual;" ALL "Spiritual!"

Did you see GOD "shedding HIS blood for the Church" in Acts 20:28? Listen to Hebrews 2:9:

"But we do see HIM who was made a little lower than the angels, namely, JESUS, because the suffering of HIS DEATH crowned with "GLORY" and honor, so that by the GRACE of GOD HE might taste death for everyone."

You see? "ONE" SPIRIT - In the "GLORY" of JESUS CHRIST and anything else HE pleases; simultaneously!

HE would NOT expect us to do something that HE doesn't do:

II Corinthians 3:18 "But we ALL, with open face beholding as in a glass the "GLORY" of the Lord, are changed into the SAME IMAGE from "GLORY TO GLORY," (Just Like) even as by the SPIRIT OF THE LORD!"

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


We can go on and on with your typical "proof" verses that Trinitarians and oneness/modalists use. Clearly the first two references in the first comment you presented show that you are ignoring clear evidence. This is called not rightly dividing the word, but twisting Scripture by presupposing things that are not there. I take it that is why you have completely ignored the evidence I gave you and have nothing to say. Be sure there I have a lot more. It’s always “what about this verse when on doesn’t work, then on to what about that verse” without acknowledging the utter failure of your “interpretation” on the others, which is why again, you refer back to 1 Timothy 3:16.

My further responses will be to show others how you are twisting Scripture by the shallow study of the verses you are presenting. Unfortunately, that is what happens when you allow men to pour their man-made ideologies into you head.

Unfortunately, you are using a corrupted KJV of the Bible where there is much Trinitarian bias that has been added to the text. I know you know this, as other have told you this also.

Let’s take a look at 1 John 3:16 KJV:

Hereby perceive we THE LOVE OF GOD, BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

It should be obvious the words "of God" were inserted into the text. Do you notice that they have it saying that it is God who laid down his life?

The text actually reads:

Hereby we pereceive love, that he laid down his life for us and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

If you check several other translations the problem here will be made quite clear.

Let’s look at Acts 20:28:

It is a well-known academic fact that very important early manuscripts do not read "Church of God," but instead have "Church of the Lord." The fact that we have variant readings of this verse shows us that someone corrupted this verse. And that is not the end of the manuscript problem either. There are further discrepancies between manuscripts concerning this verse affect its intended meaning, and that results in problem upon problem, building a house upon the sand.

This is why your doctrine fails because it is built upon ambiguous verses, rather than ones that are explicitly stated hundreds of times elsewhere in Scripture.

The church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. – Acts 20:28 (ASV).

Acts 20:28 is plagued with so many difficulties that it renders the passage completely useless as evidence. It is dishonestly irresponsible to suggest to others the Trinitarian or oneness doctrine by using a cherry picked manuscript reading and ambiguous translation. Any reasonable person can also see that "God's blood" stands weirdly out of place in the Scriptures. The implication is not hard to figure out since we are all expected to know it was God's Son who shed his blood, not God. No matter how many ways you want to spin it, your claim is based on nothing but your own personal desires to have it as you would like.

Let’s take a look at John 1:14

The “Word” is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God (see John 1:1) and the Word “became flesh,” as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was “the Word in the flesh,” which is shortened to “the Word” for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word, but it is the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the “Word” in writing had a beginning. So did the “Word” in the flesh? In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: “Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner.”

The modern Greek texts all read “beginning” (genesis) in Matthew 1:18. “Birth” is considered an acceptable translation of “genesis,” since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read “birth” in Matthew 1:18. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the “beginning” (genesis) of Jesus Christ.

In the beginning, God had a plan, a purpose, which “became flesh” when Jesus was conceived. To make John 1:14 support the Trinity, or the oneness doctrine there must first be proof that Jesus existed before he was born and was called “the Word.”

Scripture states that Jesus was foreknown by God, and that the “the Word” refers to God’s plan, or purpose. The meaning of the verse is straightforward. God had a plan (the Word) and that plan became flesh when Jesus was conceived. Thus, Jesus became “the Word in the flesh.”

It is quite fair to ask why John would say, “the Word became flesh,” a statement that seems so obvious. Of course Jesus Christ was flesh. He was born, grew, ate and slept, and Scripture calls him a man.

Let’s look at John 17:5:

And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Scripture speaks also of believers who were chosen before the foundation of the world and who had grace given to them before the times of the ages. This language does not mean the self-consciously pre-existed, yet at John 17:5 this is what you are claiming such language necessarily means when the Scriptures show us plainly that this is incorrect.

Your claim has even more problems. A simple review of the context, and the word "world" in this context, shows that you are entirely off base. At John 17:4, Jesus is referring to how he glorified the Father in terms of the works he was doing. And since the Father abiding in Jesus did the works (14:10), the Father glorified Jesus in terms of the works he was doing (5:44; 8:54). The facts force us to interpret the Greek text of John 17:5 to mean that Jesus is asking to be glorified to that glory, that is, the glory he had with the Father in terms of the works the Father did through him.

Let’s look at Hebrews 1:3:

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

It is obvious to thinking people that if Jesus is in the image OF God, it necessarily means he is not God. It doesn't matter how exact the image is. An exact image of an emperor on a coin is not the Emperor. An exact image of yourself in the mirror is not you; it is something else - an image of you. The risen Jesus is the image of God because God is Spirit and his crucified body was swallowed up by the Spirit so that his body became a spiritual body and for that reason we no longer know Christ according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. The image in question is the Spirit and we who are partakers of the divine nature are being transformed into the same image as Paul says, the image of Christ who is the image of God. When we are raised from the dead, our bodies will be like Jesus' body and the Bible tells us we will bear the image of the heavenly man who is the image of God.

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


Norine you stated,

(((You see? "ONE" SPIRIT - In the "GLORY" of JESUS CHRIST and anything else HE pleases; simultaneously!))

Paul referred to the glorification of Jesus' resurrection body. He was raised, as Paul says, "life-giving Spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:45). His mortal body of flesh was consumed by the immortality of the Holy Spirit. Concerning the resurrection of the body, Paul tells us that death was swallowed up in life. The Spirit is that life (2 Corinthians 3:6). The Spirit swallowed up Jesus' crucified body. His body was clothed in Holy Spirit in such a way that his crucified body and the Spirit became one new creation, a spiritual body, a new kind of humanity, the new Adam. We can also see that Paul has this in mind here in 2 Corinthians 3, since he immediately leads in to describe the resurrection body at 4:18-5:10.

If we are honest with ourselves the message is quite plain. Paul is discussing the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. He indicates the veil that was over the Old Covenant minds is only taken away in Christ; it is only removed when one turns to the Lord resulting in the glory of the New covenant. The ministry of the Spirit is much more glorious. And then he says, "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord." Paul comes right out and explicitly tells us precisely who he had in mind when he said "the Lord is the Spirit." He is referring to the glorified and resurrected Jesus who is, as Paul says, "life-giving Spirit." Paul was not implying that Jesus was God.

I think the evidence you presented to "prove" your oneness/modalists doctrine reveals that it is a farce.

Are we to continue the hopping game from one verse to the next?

Norine Williams 2 months ago

My GOD! Why so lengthy? Do you really need anything but WORD to “justify” (PROVE) your “interpretation?” However, when “man” interprets, meaningless words are necessary!

From the last statement to me, you are IGNORANT to the WORD of GOD but well versed in “man’s interpretation” of Scripture! Why didn’t you “WAIT” for “revelation” from the HOLY SPIRIT vs “Research” as another Hubber has done to “Debunk Salvation?”

You asked, “Are we to continue “the hopping game” from one verse to the next?” This question DEFIES SCRIPTURE so I KNOW you are only using “your findings” (Research via man) to “interpret” Scripture!

The Prophet told us in Isaiah 28:10 how the Holy Spirit would “lead and guide” us into “revelation” of HIS WORD! He said “For percept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE…” He DID NOT say, “Well let’s begin “researching” what “man” has said vs what the HOLY SPIRIT will “lead and guide” us into which is “ALL” TRUTH! So that in Itself shows that you don’t know how to “STUDY” the WORD of GOD but rather go “outside” of the HOLY SPIRIT via “Research” coming to “your” conclusion which is ONLY “man’s interpretation” which “seemeth right!”

I John 2:15-29 commands us to (v15) “Love not the world, neither the things which are in the world (Research), If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” ANYTHING outside of the WORD of GOD is of “the world!” It goes on to say (v16) “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes (“Research”), and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (v17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that DOTH THE WILL OF GOD (Let HOLY SPIRIT do HIS JOB: “lead and guide!”) abideth forever. (v18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (v19) They went out from us, but they WERE NOT OF US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were NOT ALL OF US. (v20) But ye have AN UNCTION FROM THE HOLY ONE, and ye KNOW all things. (v21) I have not written unto you because ye know NOT the TRUTH, but because you know it, and that NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH. (v22) Who IS A LIAR but he that denieth that JESUS is the CHRIST [“ONE SPIRIT”]? He is an antichrist that denieth the Father and Son [“GLORIES!”]! (v23) WHOSOEVER denieth the Son, the same hath NOT the Father [“ONE SPIRIT”]: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” Why? “ONE SPIRIT!” (v24) “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning.” Genesis 1:26 “…LET US…” John 17:5; 11 “And now, O Father, “GLORIFY” thou Me with THINE OWN SELF with the “GLORY” which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.” Is this not “THE BEGINNING?” (v11) “…that they may be “ONE,” as we are!” You can’t “justify” A LIE by DENYING THE WORD of GOD or you BLASPHEME! (Continuing I John 2:24) “…If that which ye have heard FROM THE BEGINNING shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, “AND” in the Father” Why? “ONE SPIRIT!” (v25) “And this THE PROMISE that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE. (v26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that SEDUCE YOU. (v27) But the ANOINTING which ye have received of HIM abideth in you, and ye need NOT that ANY MAN “TEACH YOU:” but as the ANOINTING TEACHETH YOU “ALL” THINGS, AND IS TRUTH, AND IS NO LIE, AND EVEN AS IT HAS TAUGHT YOU, YOU SHALL ABIDE IN HIM.”

You may not believe this and I don’t care, but I didn’t know this was in Scripture! I haven’t read ALL of the Bible, the HOLY SPIRIT “leads and guides” me! So, it doesn’t matter WHAT you say about the KJV or any other translations, I have “WAITED” and allow HIM to do HIS JOB whereas you “Research” and “study” man’s sayings rather than allowing the HOLY SPIRIT do HIS JOB “lead and guide!” Now who’s the “FOOL?” Who would you rather believe, “man or GOD?”

(v28) “And now, little children, abide in HIM; that, when HE shall appear, we may have CONFIDENCE, and NOT BE ASHAMED before HIM at HIS COMING. (v29) If YE KNOW that HE is RIGHTEOUS, ye KNOW that every one that DOETH RIGHTEOUS is born of HIM!”

GOD “leads and guides” me! It may not “APPEAR” to the “carnal” man that it’s right, but GOD knows “the heart” and man doesn’t!

I was going to address each of your comments, but after GOD gave me this Message to give to you, I find it “fruitless!”

I will “continue” to GIVE WORD whether you say KJV is the WORST translation in the world or not! The Bible was ONLY my “SCHOOLMASTER” which brought me “INTO CHRIST” but NOW that I have a “COMMUNICATION LINE” - “DIRECTLY TO HIM (Jeremiah 31:34; Hebrews 8:11 “And they shall TEACH NO MORE every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall ALL KNOW ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD…”) I don’t need ANYONE or ANYTHING but JESUS (aka HOLY SPIRIT) for HE “puts HIS law in my inward parts; and write it in my heart…” (Jeremiahs 31:33)!


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 2 months ago from The Ekklesia


The emotional learnings from my Pentecostal background are among the hardest deceptions to release and be cleansed of. The Pentecostal religions make use of the minds and emotions of people to serve up their renditions of the holy spirit. Much like all the other religions out there the Pentecostals are not that old, they are like the Mormons, Jehovah witness etc. a show started by someone open to demonic influence. That initially deceived person then starts a magic show and we all know everyone likes a magic show. Most are very much like following a really good magic act on America's got talent. It starts with not understanding something which is perfectly OK, then uses deception to make an individual think and feel like they are "Special and different" because "They" have the secret spiritual answers no one else does. Magic allows the magician to continue their act although they are not in accord with anyone except themselves and others that want to see magic.

God is faithful he will raise the curtain and show all that want to see the spiritual deception behind everything that does not come into alignment with the scriptures. Today the spiritual magicians with their deceptions have got the majority believing in magic instead of God.

God does not give messages to people that don't belong to Him, however the spirits of this world will encourage all that will submit themselves. God does not use corrupted translations of His word to establish principles of the Kingdom. God does not tell people to ignore what is in front of them and believe some twisted deception that only darkness would fall for. God does not take those that refuse to repent and give them "special" messages that go against Him. The most common antics of the spiritually deceived is that "everyone else is carnal". Even when someone shows the person how their card trick is being done they continue to believe that "God" told them the lie they want to promote.

When their magic act is shown so everyone knows it is nothing but trickery they move onto another trick hoping no one will notice the trap door that has been exposed.

The first thing that has to happen before the blood of Jesus will keep the angel of death away is to get all the leaven out of your house, expecting a maid to come in and clean your house is not part of the Passover. You clean up the house then you put the blood on the door way for protection.

It is truly back to basics, one cannot claim to be something when they fail to follow the directions given. Listening to the deceived recite scripture is no different that satan trying to con Christ with scripture. I and most have seen the magic act so many times that it actually makes me sad to see a person that should know better still believing in their own self deception. The ugliness that follows deception around cannot be hidden or justified by cutting and pasting scripture. You have become the AKA queen of ugliness and deception.

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


What you are using as “WORD” is incorrect. God uses men inspired by the Spirit. Scripture interprets Scripture and the whole counsel of it must be used, not picking ambiguous verses and using them out of context. Your problem is that anyone who disagrees with you, you say they are defying the “Word of God.” This the same tactic they use in the Jehovah Witness cult and many others. I’m sorry, but you cannot have your own private interpretation of Scripture.

I have spent many years researching and studying the Trinity doctrine and the ambiguous verses they use to defend their doctrine. Oneness/modalist the same.

I don’t think you understand that the Holy Spirit guides those in their studies. To say go and “wait” has no Scriptural precedent. We are to be like the Bereans, and that is why what you are conveying is false. We are to use Scripture for correction, not the “supposed” revelation of someone’s private interpretation.

To say that I am “debunking salvation” and go “wait for revelation” after all the evidence in the revelation of Scripture is willful ignorance on your part.

It’s interesting that you reference Isaiah 28:10, but I have given you the precept upon precept and line upon line. In fact, I said I have more Scripture references (evidence) to back up my previous comments to you, yet you have ignored every single one.

Your reference to 1 John 2:15-29 is you twisting the word “research” as if studying and researching is a bad thing. It is a given in 1 Timothy 2:15 to study so we can rightly divide the word of truth. We CAN do this with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You are butchering these verses to conform to your own ideas defining “lust of the eyes” with research.

You are out of control and keep hopping from one cherry-picked verse to the next.

John 17:24 clarifies your reference John 17:5. Notice how Jesus refers to having been loved "before the foundation of the world" but in this same breath he also says, "my glory which you have given me."

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see my glory which You have given me, for You loved me before the foundation of the world. 

He (the Lamb) was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for your sake. 1 Peter 1:0.

The Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13:8.

At this point, it should be abundantly clear that the language of John 17:5 doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus existed as a self-conscious person. Otherwise, we would need to consistently conclude that believers also pre-existed before they were born since they had been chosen before the foundation of the world and they had grace before the times of the ages and they had this same glory given to them by Jesus. I already mentioned this to you in my previous comment.

The language of John refers to God's predestination, what God purposed to do. Since God gets all His works accomplished by the word He spoke (Isaiah 55:1), and He has been finished all His works from the foundation of the world (Hebrews 4:3), and He fixed times and season when things will occur, we know these things can be said of believers because God has already spoken it to be done for us. From God's perspective it WAS done.

To call a proper exegesis of a Scripture passage “blasphemy” shows your willful stiffed necked ignorance.

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PlanksandNails 2 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author


Let’s look at your reference of 1 John 2:24:

Let what YOU HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING ABIDE IN YOU. If WHAT YOU HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

It is obvious you have not studied in depth on particular passages and referenced them with others because there are two “beginnings” in Scripture. First, was the beginning at creation and the other was the beginning of the Gospel.

Here is the clear evidence:

And he is the head of the body, the church. He IS the BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that in everything he might be preeminent. – Colossians 1:18

We see here that the context of this verse speaks of the risen Christ in present tense. Jesus Christ IS “THE BEGINNING,” not WAS THE “BEGINNING.”

Referring to Genesis 1:1 would be in the past tense, but “IS” is in the present tense that refers to the redemption and forgiveness of sins through the risen Christ at that PRESENT time, which BEGAN at his resurrection.

The “beginning” found in the Gospel's and Epistles that refer specifically to Jesus are based on the risen Christ when He was resurrected.

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that YOU HAD FROM THE BEGINNING. The old commandment is the word THAT YOU HAVE HEARD. – 1 John 2:7

What they heard from the “beginning” was that Christ was their Advocate.

And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as YOU HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, so that you should walk in it. – 2 John 1:6

And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one WE HAVE HAD FROM THE BEGINNING—that we love one another. – 2 John 1:5


Just as those who FROM THE BEGINNING WERE EYEWITNESSES and ministers OF THE WORD have delivered them to us – Luke 1:2

It should be crystal clear that Jesus in the flesh BEGAN at his resurrection and the word spread as the eyewitnesses attested to his victory.

I must disagree with YOU and your interpretation of Scripture, not the “WORD” as you put it. Guidance from the Holy Spirit results in the alignment with the full counsel of Scripture. That is why your “interpretations” have so many holes in them. To accuse me of not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in me, or others and calling them a fools and liars for it reveals your zealous religious pride and immaturity in handling the ambiguous texts in Scripture that require a lot more than a shallow reading of the text.

I believe this Scripture applies to you:

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. – 2 Peter 3:16

I don’t believe this conversation is “fruitless,” but enlightens the reading audience of your willful ignorance on the many aspects of Scripture that you still need to learn. That is why you cannot even attempt to address one of my responses to you, and that is why you continue with the hopping game, distractions and false accusations.

Norine Williams 2 months ago

Again, YOUR "judgment" of who belongs to GOD is IRRELEVANT" and is only "man's" judgment and NOTHING in the sight of GOD but as the Scripture says below "BY YOUR WORDS; YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED!"

When JESUS walked the face of the earth performing miracles, unbelievers such as the Scribes and Pharisees spoke the same way you are speaking. I wonder why?

In Matthew 12:24 the Pharisees (unbelievers) said “…This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of devils. (v25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: (v26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? (v27) And if I be Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore “they” shall be your judges. (v28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of GOD, then the kingdom of GOD is come unto you. (Now tell me the Kingdom of GOD is NOT the Holy Spirit?) (v29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house. (v30) He that is NOT with me is AGAINST ME; and he that gathereth NOT with me SCATTERETH ABROAD. (v31) Wherefore I say unto you, “ALL” manner of sin and blasphemy shall be FORGIVEN of men: BUT the blasphemy against the HOLY SPIRIT shall NOT be forgiven unto men. (v32) And WHOSOEVER speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: BUT the BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT shall NOT BE FORGIVEN him, neither IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME. (“HOLY SPIRIT IS “MAGIC?”) (v33) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is KNOWN BY HIS FRUIT (“MAGIC?”). (v34) O generation of VIPERS, (“Snake!”), how can ye BEING EVIL, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (v35) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the EVIL TREASURE bringeth forth EVIL THINGS (HOLY SPIRIT IS “MAGIC?”) (v36) But I say unto YOU, That “EVERY IDLE WORD” that men shall speak, they shall GIVE ACCOUNT thereof in the DAY OF JUDGMENT. (v37) For BY THY WORDS THY SHALT BE JUSTIFIED, AND BY THY WORDS THOU SHALT BE “COMDEMNDED!”

I’m tired of you not understanding “REPENTANCE” which means to “TURN TO GOD” and from your believing HE is “MAGIC,” it appears YOU are in need of “REPENTANCE!”

Referring to the HOLY SPIRIT as a “maid” (Which HE does clean one or “change from GLORY to GLORY” as in II Corinthians 3:18) is between YOU and GOD!

Why do you think one who is “IN CHRIST” needs to “clean himself up” before CHRIST will accept? If we are ALREADY clean, we don’t need CHRIST! JESUS SAID in Mark 2:17 “When JESUS heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (TURN TO GOD!)!

Now, when one calls the HOLY SPIRIT “magic” or a “maid” ??????????????? GOD is the FINAL JUDGE; BUT “IT IS WRITTEN!”

Norine Williams 2 months ago




As JESUS SAID in Revelation 3:22 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches!"


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 2 months ago from The Ekklesia


(("Why do you think one who is “IN CHRIST” needs to “clean himself up” before CHRIST will accept? If we are ALREADY clean, we don’t need CHRIST! "))

Your statement should bring concerns from any that are disciples of Christ. The scripture that says by your fruits you will know them addresses your "In Christ" statement. I have read nothing but how you don't have to obey Christ because the Holy Spirit was sent. Your assumption that the Holy Spirit would teach anything different than Christ is wrong. I'm not certain that you even know what grace is if you think you can live with active sin in your life. The belief that you are born a sinner and it is not your fault could be the problem, I don't know you are so all over the place it is hard to tell.

To not be in agreement with your feelings and emotions is not blasphemy. The scripture tells us what the Holy Spirit does and how it acts you are not the Holy Spirit.

If you knew why and what Jesus was the first and the last of you would better understand the scripture you quote. Because you quote scripture doesn't make it so.

Revelation 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Above are two repents well after Pentecost, do you still ignore that repentance is need?


Norine Williams 2 months ago

CHRIST refers to the "man" Portion of THAT "ONE SPIRIT!" Don't you know that since you are so well versed in Scripture? The HOLY SPIRIT speaks to one who is "IN CHRIST" - DIRECTLY! Acts 1:2 "Until the day HE was taken up, AFTER THAT, HE through the HOLY SPIRIT had given "commandments" unto the apostles WHOM HE HAD CHOSEN." HE operates THE SAME - TODAY (Hebrews 13:8)! Your "perception" that I think the HOLY SPIRIT teaches anything different than CHRIST is wrong else it would negate my belief of "ONE SPIRIT!"

I don't know why you continue to BLASPHEME AGAINST GOD! If HE SAID we "change from GLORY TO GLORY" (II Corinthians 3:18), there must be some sin still in our lives or we wouldn't have to "change!" What "man" is without sin? Why do you think we need the HOLY SPIRIT? HE "leads and guides us" INTO HIS LIKENESS!

You DON'T CARE WHAT GOD SAID! If HE SAID we were "born in iniquity and sin" (Psalm 51:5) who are you? I bet I am "all over the place" to one who doesn't have "understanding!"

To DENY THE WORD of GOD is "BLASPHEMY!" If you don't have the "Communication Line" to HIM, because you didn't "WAIT" AS COMMANDED (Acts 1:4) for HIM to "put HIS laws in your heart and mind" (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16) via the HOLY SPIRIT (Acts 1:2), then you DENY WORD AGAIN AND "BLASPHEME!"


REPENTANCE in SCRIPTURE means "TURN" TO GOD! Who are you to "look at hearts" and say one needs to "TURN TO GOD?"

You have the Catholic's (man's) definition confused with GOD'S definition!

Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 2 months ago from The Ekklesia

Good bye Norine

Norine Williams 2 months ago

I pray that "the eyes of your heart be enlightened" (Eph 1:18)!


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