SALVATION: Unless God "DRAG" Us?

LOVE DOESN'T FORCE ITS OWN WAY.
LOVE DOESN'T FORCE ITS OWN WAY.

L. Ray Smith on Salvation by Dragging

L. Ray Smith, a “priest in training” of a Universalist-based cult stated as follows, and I quote:

“Billy Graham: It was reported years ago that in a Billy Graham crusade when Mr. Graham called for people to come to the altar to accept Jesus Christ he make a statement similar to the following: "Don't pray for these people who are making their decision for Christ at this time. It is fine if you prayed for them before and it is fine if you pray for them afterwards, but right now the decision must be theirs and theirs ALONE." Statements like that from the clergy overwhelm me--completely overwhelm me! As though a man or woman could actually make such a decision to "come to Christ" on their own without God. "NO MAN CAN come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44).”

These poor people, following this cult of L. Ray Smith and his teachings, feel like they “hope” God will “draw” (which means to drag, like a fisherman drags in a net of fish) him or her to salvation. I've not yet spoken to ONE who believes s/he is saved and this makes me wonder if L. Ray Smith is in the same boat? The unsaved leading the unsaved?

First of all, we must expose the root of L. Ray Smith. There was/is a hubber on HubPages called "yes2truth" who was an avid follower of this man's teaching, yet I recently stumbled upon a web-posting written by him back in March 2006 called "L. Ray Smith - The Legalist Blasphemer!" in which he states, and I quote, "Myself, like old Ray, having once been a member of Herbert W. Armstrongs's Judaising cult, and upon stumbling across ('stumbling' being a very relevant word here) L. Ray Smith's website and forum, I instantly related to his no nonsense style of preaching/teaching, which in itself is fine, and therein found much Truth being taught, but then, Hello!? I've been here before haven't I? Yes of course I had and there it was, all the time, that old stumbling block of legalism."

Now, I've already exposed Armstrongism in my hub A False Prophet of the Last Days? Another name for this cult is the Worldwide Church of God.

Back to "dragging": Is it any wonder Jesus said to His disciples, "Follow me, and I shall make you fishers of men"? (Matthew 4:19) And indeed, the disciples saw multitudes getting saved in their time (Acts 10:44-48). Do they think the Father will NOT draw some? They are wrong, according to John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." When was He lifted up? On the CROSS and through His resurrection and ascension into the heavens!

How and when does Jesus Christ draw ALL men to Himself? We're going to see the answer here shortly.

How Does God Draw "Drag" Us?

Let’s look at what the Bible says about salvation and God “dragging” people to obtain it.

EPHESIANS 2:8-9 (THE HOLY BIBLE) STATES, “FOR BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.”

So we’re saved through FAITH. What is FAITH?

HEBREWS 11:1 (THE HOLY BIBLE) STATES, “NOW FAITH IS THE ASSURANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE CONVICTION OF THINGS NOT SEEN.”

How in the world do we have the faith, unless we hear the Word and respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Have you ever been to a church gathering, or better yet, do you see all throughout the Bible that not only Jesus, but His disciples who later became apostles (ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ) SPOKE to others? What were they speaking? They were speaking the Word of God, quoting prophesies of the Old Testament and showing them fulfilled in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Again, John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Does this mean ALL will be saved? Some will reject His calling based on John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

Ministers and believers alike continue to preach the gospel throughout the world. Now, not all prophets are true, as we know many false prophets have gone out into the world, and I’ve written a hub regarding “Signs of Christian Cults”. One of the worst false teachings is that some will be judged and ultimately saved through the spiritual Lake of Fire. Did you just read John 12:48? What saves us? The Word. What judges us? The Word. No fire here.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

When Does God Draw "Drag" Us?

ROMANS 10:7 (THE HOLY BIBLE) STATES, “FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.”

That’s WHY sharing the Word of God is so important! Why did the disciples (apostles) see so many get saved? THEY PREACHED THE WORD FIRST! Knowing this, if you re-read what happened at the Billy Graham service, you will understand that Billy Graham had, like the apostles, JUST preached the Word of God! Many in the service, who after hearing the Word, felt the CONVICTION (or the DRAWING) of the Holy Spirit of God! They were filled with FAITH; they BELIEVED the Word! This is what empowered them to walk to the altar and ON THEIR OWN, by the DRAWING of the Holy Spirit, RECEIVE the SALVATION through faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior! This is what it means to be “born again”.

For some, it's important to mention that NO MAN can save anyone, and EVERYONE who preaches the Word is sinful! Look at every single one of the disciples of Jesus! The Word says if we say we have no sin, the Truth is not in us! But, praise God it is by His Spirt that people are drawn and saved!

Will some reject the sayings of Jesus Christ? Absolutely. Again, be reminded that while all men are drawn to Christ by the hearing of the Word, they can choose to reject His Word, the very Word that will judge them on the last day. Some use the excuse that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. You might be surprised to find out WHY God allowed Pharaoh's heart to be hardened...oppression of Israel for one...Have men always had the choice to harden their hearts against God's Word? Yes. Hebrews 4:7 quotes an Old Testament scripture found in Psalm 95:8-9: "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

For those who have NEVER heard the Word of God, they are without sin, the Word says in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." At least now, you understand the calling upon the Apostles and all believers to go all throughout the world to spread the gospel! That is the Great Commission!

I invite you to read my hub Come to JESUS: Salvation. Though reading God’s Word is not the same as “hearing” it literally, your mind and soul are still “hearing”! Satan would lead some to fight even this “technicality” (ridiculous!). Upon reading or hearing the Word, know that when you feel the conviction in your heart to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, it is God who draws you! Now, there are many who will feel like they're "kicking and fighting" all the way into God's arms of love. This is because we are dealing with the old nature, the influence of Satan, who fights against the truth. If you truly fight the Spirit of God and reject His calling, it is your choice. Is Jesus in the business of saving people today? He saved the thief on the cross the very day He died and has been and will continue today, tomorrow and until the resurrections of the just (through Christ) and the unjust (those who reject Christ)! No one is guaranteed tomorrow. Receive the Salvation of the Lord TODAY.

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41 comments

no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

I am continually amazed at how mightily you are used of our God. Amen mighty warrior.


Wehzo profile image

Wehzo 7 years ago from Detroit, MI

Very good thought provoking hub Carrie. I will keep you in my prayers for strength and courage as you stand in doing the work assigned to you by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God Bless You


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Note to those following this cult: I have made it clear that you don't believe in a physical fire of God, but a spiritual one here and in the after-life. I won't post your babble of arguments. People are welcome to go to your hubs to read, if they feel "dragged" to do so. AMEN.


Leonitims profile image

Leonitims 7 years ago from Las Vegas

I am commending your effort in sharing the word through this hub actually I just started just now and I saw your hub and I am blessed.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi Leonitims, and thank you for the edification in the Lord.  Many people write hoping to make money from advertisers, and yet I write for the Purpose of the message of Jesus Christ and salvation through Him.  This is a matter of life and death, and people are much more precious to God than gold or silver.

What's even more incredible, is that while I write about error in "Christian" false prophets, many times I see those false doctrines flooding the advertising around my hubs!

As long as there is time and one breath left in me, there will be one more opportunity to share the Word in love, both to edify those who are saved and to draw (or drag) those who seek Him to Him.  AMEN!


juliehess profile image

juliehess 7 years ago

I AGREE GREAT MESSAGE AND TRUTH


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Praise God, Julie. I am receiving reads of these hubs daily, and I truly pray for the revelation of the glory of Christ for these souls. God bless you, sister.


skye2day profile image

skye2day 7 years ago from Rocky Mountains

Hi Carrie. Your hub is beautiful Thank You for sharing, loving, caring and Truth. You are a sweetheart. I hope all is awesome with you. I got a new hub out. Check it out.

We lost two young men in our family during July. It has been a challenge. I am very grateful for the big wings of our Lord. Hugs


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

skye2day ~ I'm sorry to hear of your family's loss, and I pray your comfort is there as to their salvation. Our clocks are ticking everyday; our days are numbered on this earth. While we're alive and breathing, we will do our best to share the good news gospel of Jesus Christ, in faith, hope and love for the salvation of all who believe. Amen!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

JL, I took my will and accepted my free gift of salvation. The cause? Jesus died for me, and I chose to accept that gift because it's available; my sins are PAID IN FULL. I choose to die to self daily with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which is not science or fleshly, but Spirit. Even Einstein only used 10% of his God-given brain. No man could build the tower to heaven; no man can be a god. Man is limited, but God is not. The Holy Spirit is spiritual and you simply have to know and trust that when you open your mouth, let your heart cry out to your Creator, your Father, He will hear you and will save you.

If someone knocks at your door, you can open the door or not, right? Is that a cause to open the door? Revelation 3:20 states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." If Jesus said it, I believe it. He knocked on my door and I opened it. I heard Him because I heard the Word. He is the Word made flesh. He is the Word by which the world was created. He is the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Amen.


Ast 6 years ago

CARRIE!! Read it, you answered your question for us.

"EPHESIANS 2:8-9 (THE HOLY BIBLE) STATES, “FOR BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.”

So we’re saved through FAITH. What is FAITH?

HEBREWS 11:1 (THE HOLY BIBLE) STATES, “NOW FAITH IS THE ASSURANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE CONVICTION OF THINGS NOT SEEN.”

How in the world do we have the faith, unless God gives it to us?"

Precisely! That's where faith comes from. "... And that NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...".

And please ask yourselves, just who is it that lets you understand the Word of God in the first place?

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God decides who understands and who doesn't, that's what.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Ast, this entire comment you have quoted has to do with the reality that man cannot save himself by his good deeds or works of the flesh. It does not negate that we must turn our hearts over to Christ Jesus in order to be saved. There is only one way to faith, and that is by hearing the word of God. Anyone who hears the word of God is drawn by the Father, but he has a choice to receive/respond to that drawing or reject Him. Man has free will. I'm certain God knows who will receive Him and who will reject Him, for when He comes, there will be NO EXCUSE.


Ast 6 years ago

Correct, we can't save ourselves by good deeds alone. We're also not saved by choosing Jesus as our Lord and Saviour out of our own phantom free will. Get this: 1Co 12:3 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Without the grace of the Holy Ghost we won't confess that Jesus is Lord. That's why we're saved by God's grace through God given faith. You quoted it yourself already. If God doesn't give us the faith, we won't be saved because we don't have the faith. Simple as that.

There's no "way to faith", it is GIVEN TO US. It says it plainly in the verse, doesn't it?

"but he has a choice to receive/respond to that drawing or reject Him. Man has free will..."

I'd like to see some scripture.

Look, we have a will, but it's not free, and God's still the one who decides who understands and who doesn't. The potter decides how the clay will turn out. Unless the clay has some alien magic powers that allows it to form itself without a potter. We walk, but it is not in us to direct our steps. Jer 10:23.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

John 6:44 states, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Do you think the Father will NOT draw some? You are wrong, according to John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." When was He lifted up? On the CROSS.

Does this mean ALL will be saved? Some will reject His calling based on John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

Obviously, those who hear the Word will be drawn unto Christ by the Spirit of God, for Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace are you saved through faith". Since we know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17), and yet man can reject the Word of God (His sayings), that is a choice. Jesus said He draws ALL MEN to Himself. There is no excuse.

For those who have NEVER heard the Word of God, they are without sin, the Word says in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." Why do you think the Apostles and all believers are to go all throughout the world to spread the gospel? That is the Great Commission!


Hell N0 6 years ago

How dare anybody tell those Africans and Aborigianies about christ. Now they will pobably go to hell because they in all likelyhood, will stay with their pagan beliefs. But now they have heard, they can be found guilty of rejecting the message.

It is you that takes scripture out of context. That last one is a prime fallocy of idiotic church talk.


SirDent 6 years ago

I prefer to let the Word speak for me.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I especially love the first few words of this scripture. Also I love how it states that WHOSOEVER WILL, let him come. Doesn't that mean that those who come have to come of their own will? It actually means they make their own choice.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hell-No, You said, "they will probably go to hell because they in all likelyhood, will stay with their pagan beliefs". That's not trusting in the truth of the Word. The Lord says He will draw all men to Himself and told us when ~ when He is lifted up from the earth. He does it through the hearing of His Word, and yes, listeners can reject the Word, thus choosing to reject the Living Word, Jesus Christ. Do you think the Word is only preached once and for all? NO! It's preached over and over and over and over....again. God gives us a myriad of "drawings" to "choose" from :-) Amen.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

SirDent ~ AMEN. In fact, if anyone "will" look up more scriptures, there are many that use the terms "whoever/whosoever wishes", "whoever/whosoever desires" (wish/desire/will ~ depending on the version of the Bible). Likewise, there are many passages that state whoever/whosoever believes; all who believe (kind of like all my pillows, all my sisters, as in separating criteria using the word "all"). Lord, I thank You that you promise to draw all men unto Yourself, because of Your death, resurrection and ascension, that when Your gospel is read and heard ~ they may respond to Your drawing by trusting in what You said and receiving You as Lord and Savior. In JESUS' NAME, AMEN.


SirDent 6 years ago

The word DRAW has many different definitions. It doesn't mean to drag only.

According to Thayer's Greek definitions: G1670

??????? / ??????

helkuo? / helko?

Thayer Definition:

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably akin to G138

Citing in TDNT: 2:503, 227

I like Thayer's because it always gives more than Strong's. I also like how it is formatted better.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

"2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel" ~ exactly! This group seems to think that God has to force one to salvation (i.e. they use Saul as an example ~ as though he didn't have a choice). Sometimes, God does supernatural things to make Himself very real to someone, but some people expect that's the only way to believe. Hearing the Word does cause one to feel drawn by inward power, lead by the Holy Spirit and impelled to come to Jesus! I can personally attest to that!! Thanks, SirDent :-)


SirDent 6 years ago

King Agrippa told the Apostle Paul, "Almost you convinced me to become a Christian." Almost doesn't cut it even though Agrippa was drawn, not dragged. Many are in hell right now saying and thinking about how they almost gave their lives to Jesus.

I started working on another hub tonight about hell. Using some scripture from Proverbs 24 in the first part of it.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Praise God, SirDent! I look forward to reading your hub!!


Hell N0 6 years ago

Yes Dent!! We need another hell hub by you. I need the entertainment. More Hell, More Hell, (say it with me) More Hell!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hell-No: 2 Cor 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

If you don't repent and give Jesus authority over your heart, you are doing the will of the devil, who wants you to believe a lie ~ that you will be saved after you die. He'll be laughing at you in hell. Jesus does not want you to go there, but if you reject His Words, He says that very Word condemns you now and after you physically die. Please, HEAR THE TRUTH, in Jesus' Name. Amen.


Hell N0 6 years ago

The gospel has been veiled to you. It is you that is perishing and been blinded by the god of this world. And neither do you believe the words of Christ. You just don't realize it because you worship a false christ. And your scripture "love doesn't force its own way" is a prime example of how you take scriptures out of context. Read the surrounding verses. You may find that it's saying love is not selfish. I mentioned it in my hub, "Yes, I know about these scriptures too, and Hell is still a hoax".


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hell-No, Jesus talked more about hell than anyone. Look up His words regarding Hades (the bottomless pit) in the following verses: Mt 11:23 & 16:18; Lu 10:15 & 16:23.

He also told us about the lake of fire in the following verses: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; and Lu 12:5.

Considering Revelation 1:1 states the book of Revelation is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ", look up the verses in that book, too: Hades (Re 1:18, 6:8, 20:13 and 20:14) and the Lake of Fire (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14 & 15; 21:8).

Jesus is very clear to those whose minds are not "blinded by the light", for Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.


t rafeiro 6 years ago

Carrie i have been reading youre hubs for a couple months now,it is very clear who is blind .


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

t rafeiro, While I'm glad you're reading, if you disagree with something, simply provide scriptural proof of your disagreement. I want to see references, cross-references, definitions and no contradiction to other passages in the Bible. That would be most convincing. Thus far, this is what I've provided you. I do believe that IF I tell the TRUTH, the Word of God will NOT return VOID and my labor is not in VAIN. May the Holy Spirit bless the teaching of His Word. Amen.


g-blade 6 years ago

Hi Carrie

You say:

"If you don't repent and give Jesus authority over your heart, you are doing the will of the devil, who wants you to believe a lie ~ that you will be saved after you die. He'll be laughing at you in hell. Jesus does not want you to go there, but if you reject His Words, He says that very Word condemns you now and after you physically die. Please, HEAR THE TRUTH, in Jesus' Name. Amen."

I say:

Carrie there are a lot of false teaching in what you said there.

REV.20:10 says:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The for ever and ever part is not a very good translation, but we'll leave it at that for now.

You christians believe that the lake of fire will have no effect on satan and his demons. You say he will be laughing at you in hell. Give me just one scriptural proof that the lake of fire (or hell as you christians put it) is not a place of pain and suffering for all who are cast into it?

You said:

"Anyone who hears the word of God is drawn by the Father, but he has a choice to receive/respond to that drawing or reject Him. Man has free will. I'm certain God knows who will receive Him and who will reject Him, for when He comes, there will be NO EXCUSE."

I say:

Did you know that ants and bees can make choices, cats and dogs make choices, even some of todays computers make can make choices. Do you think that constitutes free will? You should sit and think about it for a couple of hours. Look at Jonah. Do you think he had freewill not to go to Nineveh?

Do you think that Peter had any say in denying Jesus thrice, before the cock crowed? Imagine this, he was TOLD that he would deny Jesus thrice. If he had free will he could have denyed Jesus only once and then admitted that he knew Jesus but he did not. That would have been a brilliant example of free will. Here are a few verses from Romans 9. It would be wise to read all of Romans 9, because it will give you a better idea of how God's WILL works for all of us

ROM.9:10-20: 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

I do not follow or worship L. Ray Smith, but I must admit, He has shown more scriptural proof and truths than any other teacher of GOD's WORD.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

g-blade, Regarding forever and ever, you cannot refute that we are raised INCORRUPTIBLE. That means INDESTRUCTABLE.

Satan is a god (the god of this world). "He will be laughing" is a figure of speech as in having victory over one lost soul he was able to deceive. For a study on hell, I have a hub on my Judah's Daughter profile called "Where or What is Hell" (that's about the Lake of fire and brimstone). To know more about Hades and Tartaroo, I also have a hub there called "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna". Hell is a place of torment.

God is all-knowing. The Bible itself is PROPHECY. Just because God knows all things doesn't mean He hasn't given man a free will. I never said God is unjust. He is just. He's RESERVED the Lake of Fire for the devil and his angels. That means the devil and his angels have already been judged. The Bible says when we are without Christ we, too have already been judged. These are the ones whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and will go there, too (Matthew 25:41).

While you only quote verses from Romans 9 through verse 21, this truly is an account of those who thought like you and those of L. Ray Smith. Paul answers all of this thereafter. Words of PROPHECY from the Old Testament prophets are CAPITALIZED (NAS) below:

Romans 9:25-10:17 "As He says also in Hosea, 'I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED'. AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD'. Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY. And Isaiah said the same thing in another place: 'If the LORD of Heaven's Armies had not spared a few of our children, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah.' What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, 'BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.'

"Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Romans 10:8-9 "But what does it say? 'THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART'-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.'" and verse 13, "for 'WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"

*********IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE, READ THIS!*********

"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!' However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

Yes, God foreknew He would give man a choice in the matter of salvation. Will they hear His word, believe by faith and accept Him as Lord and Savior? There is no biblical proof that man has a choice AFTER his appointed time to die once (physical death). The Word is out ~ receive it or reject it. God knows who will and who won't ~ has He chosen you? He died for the whole world, did He not? That means ALL have the opportunity to get saved. Obviously, not ALL will be. Take that opportunity He's given you today.


g-blade 6 years ago

Hi Carrie

I'm quite busy at the moment, but don't worry I'll definately answer on your last post to me. A quick question though. Do believe that there are contradictions in the scriptures?


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi g-blade, I haven't found contradictions in doctrinal inductive study when I do word studies and cross-reference passages. I can say that not all of our questions will be answererd necessarily, because the Lord says in His Word in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." And in verse 12, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

For instance, in Matthew 3:16 we see Jesus being baptized by John, then immediately being led out into the desert to be tempted of the Devil for 40 days; then in Matthew 4:12-18 we see Jesus finding Simon-Peter and Andrew by the sea of Galilee, telling them to "Follow Me" (after John had been arrested).

However, In John 1 we see what appears to be the same account of John's witness to the Lamb of God (baptism assumed); then that day, John's disciples (one being Andrew) following Jesus; then he went to get his brother Simon-Peter. This must not have been when Jesus selected them as disiciples. It's simply unclear.

In John 2, we see Jesus at the wedding feast performing His first miracle, which obviously was after His desert experience. So, accounts of events might be a bit different in the gospels (due to different writers), but foundational doctrines (such as salvation, heaven and hell) do not contradict.


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

ATTENTION READERS:

FURTHER UNIVERSALIST COMMENTS WILL BE DENIED AT THIS TIME, AS I SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TIME TO RESPOND. I WILL NOTIFY IN THE FUTURE, IF I WILL BE TAKING YOUR COMMENTS. MAY GOD BLESS ALL WHO READ UNTO HIS GLORY. AMEN.


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afro's mistake 6 years ago from dorothys kansas

i am so glad you have revealed the wrongs of the Worldwide Church of God. many times have i sat down to read a religious book only to find out it had very twisted veiws. i would be very suprised and wonder what was going on untill i looked at the back cover of the book and found out that it was sponsored by the Worldwide Church of God.


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I'm just glad we're grounded in the Truth, so we recognize false teachings when we read, hear or see them. It's like swallowing a fly in our beverage...choke, choke...


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Ms Dee 5 years ago from Texas, USA

Great hub and discussion on understanding that God draws people but also finally leaves the decision up to us! Sure appreciate your ministry :)


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Ah, Ms Dee! You found the other me!! lol So glad~Praise God! I am blessed to have you as my dear friend and sister in the Lord!!


Grace 5 years ago

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD; SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE...


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

AMEN, GRACE! AMEN!!!


Christiaan 4 years ago

Salvation from the word of God as written in Romans 3:24-26, which is necessary, when you understand that God concludes us all to be guilty and that we come short of his glory (Romans 1-3).

-Why salvation? (read God's opinion of you in Romans 1-3)

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God's verdict: guilty!

-No self righteousness?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

No, deeds do not justify: no "good" works, no prayer, no asking Jesus in your heart, no water baptism, no confession of sins, no confessing that Jesus is Lord, no nothing: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

-Righteousness of God: by faith only!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

-all have sinned and all come short of the glory of God: thanks be to God and his Son that the righteousness of God is made available by faith of Jesus:

-How to be justified and have peace with God?

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Therefore, I believe in Jesus and I have faith in his blood as payment for my sins, whereby I have peace with God. Amen.

Romans 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


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Carrie Bradshaw 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi christiaan,

You may enjoy my hub "Religions versus Salvation"

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Religion-v...

You are correct that "Deeds do not JUSTIFY" ~ Amen, when you stated, "No, deeds do not justify: no "good" works, no prayer, no asking Jesus in your heart, no water baptism, no confession of sins, no confessing that Jesus is Lord, no nothing: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

However, once a believer is 'born again' by the Holy Spirit, He does these works through us. We pray and ask Jesus to be the LORD of our otherwise evil hearts, we confess our sins and confess that Jesus as LORD.

Romans 8:26 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"

1 Pet 3:15 NAS "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts."

KJV "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

Works without faith is dead, just as faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Let's go back up to vs. 18 "But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

When we are born again, we will also bear the fruit of the Spirit by which we are reborn: Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."

Yes, works do not JUSTIFY, rather they are a result of being born again by faith in Christ alone. There are certainly those who put more merit on works (outward appearance without inward law-keeping) and have not a saving faith (resulting in inward law-keeping):

Col 2:23 tells us, "Such regulations [the Law] indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their SELF-imposed worship, their FALSE humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they LACK any value in restraining sensual indulgence [or any fleshly sin]."

God bless you.

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