Jesus Saves?

Introduction

The Following is, more or less, a response to the following Hub, or at least it was inspired by this hub:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-is-Jesus-the-ONLY-way-to-HeavenGod

When I was a Christian an idea that was constantly reinforced was the concept that Jesus came to set us free, that Jesus was here to save us. At the time I didn't question this all that much. I believed in Jesus, I believed that Jesus loved me and if the God of the entire Universe wanted to save me than there had to be something to be saved from. But now that I'm an atheist this same idea, the idea that Jesus offers salvation bothers me and it raises a fundamental question that never fully occurred to me when I was a Christian. What is Jesus offering salvation FROM? In this post I'm going to tackle some of the possible answers I've been given by Christians to what Jesus is saving us from and explain why I think they just don't make sense. Let's get started shall we...

Salvation from Hell?

I consider this to be the biggest answer to the question. After all Hell is, according to literal interpretations, an eternal prison sentence spent in a horrible lake of fire where you will be in agony FOREVER. It doesn't matter which interpretation of Hell you latch onto either way Salvation from Hell simply doesn't make sense.

How is one man's death going to stop you yourself from going to Hell? Does Jesus absolve you from making your own decisions? Does your Christian Salvation truly save you from ending up in Hell? Isn't it ultimately God's decision who goes to Hell and who doesn't it? A Christian still has a chance of going to Hell right? Why can't God simply change the criteria that gets someone sent to Hell to allow more people into Heaven?

This, of course, makes no mention of the fact that Hell has no immediate effect on you. Hell is a form of AFTER-LIFE, it does absolutely nothing to you now. The idea that something bad might happen to you AFTER you die really should have no sway on the rational minded, hence why many Christians who are logical compassionate people reject the literalist interpretations of Hell and many reject the idea of Hell entirely.

The fire and brimstone preacher only holds sway over those superstitious enough to subscribe to the idea that a loving God is willing to torture you forever with no goal other than to do harm (since Hell lasts forever it can't teach you a lesson or rehabilitate you, so the goal is just for you to be harmed).

Another question that comes to mind is: Why are we in danger of Hell in the first place? Blaming it on Original Sin doesn't work because God is still in charge of issuing judgment. We had no control over the fact we were born into sin, but God, who is all powerful, possesses all control over all circumstances...

So Salvation from Hell has some holes to say the least. One of the biggest problems is that this reason makes Jesus' salvation save you only from God's own wrath, so in a sense God is saving you from his own injustice and vengeful wrath. One would think it would just be easier to reform the souls of the "damned" or lessen the punishment rather than employing an ancient blood sacrifice.

Salvation from Sin?

This one is pretty easy to pick apart but you'd be surprised how often I've heard Christians use this one. So Jesus came to save us from our sins, eh? Can a Christian still commit a sin? If I decide to accept Christ into my heart I don't magically become a better person do I? No, I am still capable of sinning. I may eventually lose my desire to commit certain acts deemed sinful by Christian doctrine but does this mean Jesus' sacrifice is supernaturally saving me from sin? NO! It means I've made an active decision to live my life by a moral code that I believe will make me a better person (and possibly get me out of Hell).

Does one need Jesus to die on a cross for the sins of the world in order to strive to be a better person and stop sinning? NO! People of all types, faiths and creeds have the ability to behave more morally without Jesus 'in their hearts'. And of course people who are Christians are more than capable of horrific acts in the name of the God they love so much.

Jesus isn't saving anyone from sin. I've seen plenty of sinful Christians who do things the Bible deems worthy of death without a second thought and I've known moral people of different religions and plenty of moral decent atheists. Does Jesus stop pedophile priests? NO! What's more Jesus' teachings, though some of them are wise, have led to death and oppression and the opulence and evil power of the Catholic Church. So obviously Jesus is not the key to preventing yourself from sinning.

Now many people who make this argument are actually tying it into the Hell argument. The idea is that the wages of sin is death, so if you sin than according to God you deserve to die. Now when I was a Christian I was ALSO taught that all people are sinners no matter what. What does this mean when you put two and two together - according to God we all deserve to die. Not only death but, of course, Hell as well since all people are sinners and sinners go to Hell.

So in a world of perfect judgment we're born and the moment we reach the 'Age of Accountability' and commit our first sin God immediately kills us and sends us straight to Hell and according to the version of Christianity I was fed as a child - THAT'S WHAT WE DESERVE.

But God doesn't want us all in Hell, even if we do deserve it for some reason, so he offers a sacrifice - Jesus. Never mind the barbaric nature of requiring bloodshed to appease God - why does God need atonement in order to forgive? Do I require my friends to slaughter a pig in order to gain my favor back when they piss me off? If someone stabs me in the back do I really need them to grovel to me and tell me how wonderful I am? Or do I want a SINCERE APOLOGY and than I follow that up with empathy and forgiveness depending on how bad the offense is? Why does God find sin so repulsive? He spends most of his time in the Bible sinning, if he has no problem doing it than why does he hate it so much? Why can't God forgive without having his only son beaten to a bloody pulp?

Seems like Jesus is just God's attempt to bully people into loving him by declaring them all damned by default and then offering a loophole.

Jesus can't save us from our own desire to sin, nothing can, we're going to want to do things that aren't the epitome of moral behavior from time to time. Last I checked we're also the ones in control of our actions, not Christ. You may be able to model your morality around Christ's teachings but if that's the extent of Christ's salvation from sin I am not impressed.

None of this religion makes a lick of sense when you get down to it. Moving on to the next argument.

Miranda Kerr is awfully tempting

Will Jesus' death on the cross save you from having sexual 'sinful' thoughts about this woman?
Will Jesus' death on the cross save you from having sexual 'sinful' thoughts about this woman?

Salvation from Death?

Jesus is saving you from death eh? Than why do I see tombstones with verses of scripture engraved on them? What a crock of... you know. There are verses in the Gospels that talk about eternal life but it is generally held that they're talking about heaven. No Christian truly means Jesus is saving them from Death which makes me wonder even more why they make this argument. Obviously Christians die by the thousand every single day, Jesus is not helping people actually live forever, he isn't Dracula (although there is that blood drinking thing with Communion).

So this, more or less, collapses into the argument for Salvation from Hell, in this case Hell would be more the annihilationist view where if you accept Jesus you get eternal after-life but if you don't you just DIE for real. So Jesus is saving your soul from being annihilated so you can go to some sort of paradise. How is this a good thing exactly?

What are you planning to do with eternity? Seriously though contemplate it for just a few moments - what are you planning to do if this Jesus guy turns out right and you survive death in a non-physical form to go to Heaven? Oh sure maybe being a supernatural being for a while will be fun, maybe even for the first 10 Million years... but after that? And after the first 10 Trillion years how will your mental stability be holding up? If it doesn't end altogether won't it simply end in madness, the anguish of being unable to die? For a thinking feeling being isn't eternal life more of a curse? Oh sure you can argue that Heaven is eternal bliss no matter what... but wouldn't that still get old?

So Jesus saving you from physical death is obviously a joke but even him saving you from the "second death" could be a curse rather than a blessing.

How it would be in heaven
How it would be in heaven

Salvation From Satan?

This is a fairly rare argument, I've only heard it a handful of times and its usually only seen from the hardcore fundamentalist conspiracy theory types who think that Kanye West and the band KISS are in league with dark forces and bow down to baphomet. This is the argument that Jesus came to save the world from Satan and him trying to tempt us away from God.

When you get down to it though what can Satan actually do to you? What does Satan threaten you with? Seriously though if you're a Christian (or not) and you're reading this ask yourself what real threat does Satan pose to you? What's he going to go? I mean if you're a Christian there is literally nothing Satan can do other than tempt you and temptation is everywhere regardless of any invisible boogeyman leading you to it.

Are you going to blame Satan when a really hot woman walks in front of you and tempts you with her incredible aft end? Did Satan make that woman wear those tight jeans that caused you to have inappropriate thoughts? Temptation is everywhere, no boogeyman required, all it takes is a wandering imagination to get your head into some weird places.

Satan, even if you read the Bible, has no plans to torture you, no plans to torment you, no plans to bother you. If the worst he can do is get you to sin than he's no better than a magazine rack at the grocery store showing too much skin for your puritanical mind to handle. And if you think Satan is going to lead you away from Jesus just ask yourself - why is it bad to go away from Jesus? Why is it bad to stop believing in Jesus? Chances are you're answer will be one of the three preceding this one.

Fly, you fools
Fly, you fools

Salvation from Sin continued...

I'll take a brief moment here to talk about the Salvation from addiction phenomenon. I've witnessed this first hand. I've mentioned before how my Father used to be an alcoholic but than he found Jesus and turned his life around. He now gives credit to Christ for saving him from his addictions to cigarettes and alcohol. But why?

What did Jesus actually do? I was alive the whole time he was fighting to break those addictions and I watched him ween himself off of drugs and alcohol until they were no longer a part of his life. I also watched him relapse a few times and hit some low points. Was Jesus there for all that? He would claim so. He would claim that whenever he was doing good Jesus was the one who should get the glory but if he was doing bad, if he relapsed, it was HIS fault, not Christ's fault.

God gets all the credit for the good and never any of the blame for the bad, seems a bit off for an omnipotent being.

There are a lot of people who delude themselves this way. It could be said they use the delusion to break their addiction but to me they're replacing one drug for another drug. My Dad may not be addicted to alcohol anymore but he is addicted to religion. He's devout and last I checked he spends several hours a day babbling in tongues. I can recall remarking to him at one point how ironic it was that God had saved him from being a drunk in order for him to spend several hours a day babbling incoherently LIKE a drunk being useless to himself and others.

Conclusion

So it seems to be that Jesus' death by ritual blood-magic didn't actually perform any of the tasks it is claimed to have. At best it created a loophole in some messed and and downright evil rules that God himself put into place and didn't feel like changing.

I've gone over the basic arguments that I've come across here but obviously I may have missed some. If you've heard any arguments, or if you're a Christian and you've got one, that I didn't go over leave a comment and I'll get back to you. Also if you have more rebuttals to these arguments to add that I didn't go over please add them. Thanks for reading.

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Comments 39 comments

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

I've often wondered the same things as you present here. Why does anyone in their right mind think that worshiping a man tortured to death will save them from their "miserable" lives? Are they projecting? Are they just masochists? What?

Why can't people just enjoy their lives?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 5 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I think its because the story works on an emotional level, rather than a logical one. This is why many conversion stories start with people talking about how they were at the end of their rope and than Jesus came out of the blew to save them. And of course there's always childhood indoctrination at work in many cases.

People might feel guilty about what they've done and when they hear someone else has taken the punishment they're glad, that's why so many convicts end up converts.

If people actually thought about this critically it would be a different story.


Hannah. 4 years ago

From a Christian to an Atheist? If you were a real Christian in the first place you would know what Jesus saves you from, and you wouldn't change your mind. When i read this i got sick. very sick. And the first comment? What is up with this? Jesus DIED so that your sorry butt could be forgiven and have eternal life. Jesus is the ONLY one who can get you through your "horrible" life, and without him, don't expect it to get better. He doesn't make things happen to you. He lets them happen to test your faith in him. My dad left me and my mom 2 and a half year, and before he left, we were very wealthy and we had money, got to go place, and now we are barley getting by. I have wondered time and time again why God would let something like this happen, I've been angry with him, mad at him, and just didn't get the way he worked, but i realized that didn't help anything. Doubting him didn't help anything. I was 11 when he left and I'm now 13, it has taken me forever to realize this but the reason things like this happen to Christians, good strong Christians, is to test their faith, and bring them closer to God. It sickens me to see crap like this. Don't fool anyone with saying you were a Christian. When your a Christan you devote your life to God and to worshiping, praising and not questioning his decisions or his time range. One day you will realize how much of a bad decision that was.

I have always said this "It's better to live like there is a God, and come to find out their is not one, then to live like theirs not a God and come to find out their is one." God is real, but still, you are just an incapacitate fool, who doesn't know problems from your own doing, and the fact of right and wrong and real and fake. This stuff is what I call B-U-L-L-C-R-A-P. And remember, I'm only 13 ;) Get your life straight and God bless.


Carneades-Georgia profile image

Carneades-Georgia 4 years ago from Augusta, Georgia

Titen, it's called the divine protection racket!It'd worse than the mob's due to its eternity!

Hannag,no rational being would test others' faith!

I have more on that racket elsewhere here.


Carneades-Georgia 4 years ago

Salvation reflects barbarism. Yeshua's flesh and blood for protestants reflects symbolic cannabalism and vampirism whilst for catholics the real deal!

Reason saves us from the divine protection racket.

I meant Hanna.I hope she overcomes her whining about our one life being all.

" Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning to which neither God nor the future state can further validate." Inquiring Lynn


Lybrah 3 years ago

Hannah--You go, girl!

I too find it sad that this author was once a Christian (who spoke in tongues) who abandoned the faith. One day you may regret that.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Perhaps you'd like to answer the question of the hub Lybrah. What exactly DOES Jesus save people from and how is that salvation at all accomplished by him being nailed to a cross 2000 years ago?


Lybrah 3 years ago

I will answer your question in a moment. But first I want to know how you can deny the existence of the Holy Spirit when you've spoken in tongues and been filled with the Holy Spirit. I saw your videos on YouTube, and I am perplexed. Please enlighten me.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm sorry, but you denying the power of the holy spirit is like me saying you can't get high from marijuana, it just doesn't make sense.

Titen-Sxull, you know that man is sinful and such sin can not be abided by God. Jesus's death on the cross was the sacrifice needed to be made in order for us to be forgiven, so that we can enter into heaven with God. His death=our freedom from sin.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Because it isn't a language, it's gibberish brought on by a certain mental state. When I started speaking in tongues I soon found that anything and everything could cause the right emotional state and get me speaking in tongues. If I saw a particularly pretty girl, heard an emotional song, watched a film that tugged the heartstrings, etc. Speaking in tongues, which is also called Glossolalia, occurs in religions and cultures OTHER than Christianity.

"I'm sorry, but you denying the power of the holy spirit is like me saying you can't get high from marijuana, it just doesn't make sense."

No it isn't. I don't deny that as a Christian there are many profound emotional states caused by the religious practices and the way the beliefs affect the brain emotionally. But emotional experiences, a sensation of being emotionally "high" or "low" is not evidence of a spirit or a God. These are subjective experiences that can be triggered in all kinds of ways and that are reported both by believers of varying faiths and by atheists. Human beings are not Jedi, we don't determine what's real and what isn't by how thinking about a thing makes us feel.

The same kinds of euphoria and emotional experiences can be had at secular events and tend to be boosted by having a crowd of like-minded people with you (ie a music concert, fan convention, church congregation). No matter how many Harry Potter fans you get together, no matter how much euphoria their collective love of Harry creates, Potter is still fictional.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

The idea of Jesus saving people from sin is addressed in the hub and makes no sense whatsoever.

It's funny how certain limits are always placed on a supposedly limitless God. He created the entire solar system in a week, but he can't forgive without bloodshed?

His best plan to forgive humanity involves impregnating a jewish virgin with his only son (who is also him), who will then learn how to be a carpenter only to give up the trade to perform miracles and ultimately be brutalized and nailed to a cross only to return to life in the same brutalized body three days later and thus end the need for animal sacrifice that he himself established millennia ago with the Hebrews.

Of course I'm sure that all sounds perfectly sane to you, but then you have a hub talking about Scientology and how silly it seems. So which story is REALLY more ridiculous? The one about a Jewish zombie who wants you to "Eat of his flesh and drink of his blood" in an act of symbolic cannibalism. Or the one about an alien overlord blowing up nukes in ancient volcanoes? Because to me they both sound silly, but I have a feeling you'll be selective about it.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm not necessarily making fun of Scientology, although I think it is preposterous...it's just that you're hating on Chrstianity so much...so many of your hubs are dedicated to bashing Christianity...it's like you have a vendetta...I have a feeling that you know Jesus is real, but you reject him still.


Lybrah 3 years ago

How can I explain this to you so that you'd understand that God is real? Give me some time...I will be back with a better answer...so this is not over...


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"it's just that you're hating on Chrstianity so much"

I can't write lengthy hubs picking apart Islam or Hinduism because I do not know as much about them as I do about Christianity and because I have not be personally affected by either religion.

This isn't hard to understand. If you were, say, a Scientologist, raised as a scientologist from childhood, and then realized it was all bullshit, you might want to help others escape Scientology and speak out against it.

You can read more about why I do what I do in my deconversion hub, From Superstition to Skepticism and in the hub Speaking Against Religion both of which help answer your questions.

"How can I explain this to you so that you'd understand that God is real?"

Do you have some EVIDENCE that God is real? What about a logically sound argument? Appeals to emotion, or threats of hell, or pretending that I'm just "angry" certainly aren't going to do it.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Like I said, Give me sometime...I may yet come up with something. In the meantime...follow me...


John 14:6 3 years ago

Jesus died on the cross to remove the veil that separates us from God. Because he lived a sinless, blameless life, he satisfied the law which God gave to reveal to mankind what actions separate us from his glory and his original design. In the Old Testament, things like animal sacrifices were made to repair the bond that was broken by our sinful nature. Jesus Christ gave his life willingly as the ultimate enduring sacrifice for all sins we have and will commit. While Jesus doesn't prevent us from sinning, he has already paid the cost of repairing our relationship with God. As a human, I have sinned, still sin, and will always sin but that’s what so great about what Jesus did. He took me as I am, he loved me regardless of my flaws and in this we find the motivation many people find to turn from sin. When I think that God loved me so much that he sent his son to die for me, my sin seems so unworthy by comparison and I desire to turn from them.

In terms of Hell, to truly understand what is happening we must realize what Hell is. Sure a lot of people will stress it as eternal torment and suffering and I don’t deny that, but what we know for sure through the Bible is that the basic definition of Hell is a place void of God. A loving God would not force someone to be with him for an eternity that doesn't want to be there. Why would God subject someone that didn't want him on Earth to be with him forever? Therefore, he doesn’t sentence us or punish us; he just gives us a chance to choose for ourselves


Lybrah 3 years ago

Well said, John!


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

You've given an excellent recap of the mythology as I understand it, but haven't really explained what Jesus was SAVING us from, unless Hell is your answer.

"Therefore, he doesn’t sentence us or punish us; he just gives us a chance to choose for ourselves"

The Bible personifies God as a King and final Judge, so yeah, he's doing the sentencing according to the Bible. According to the book of Revelation "choosing" Hell is as simple as being a liar, a coward or a magician. The definition of Hell as separation from God isn't Biblical and doesn't make sense considering God's omnipresence.

"A loving God would not force someone to be with him for an eternity that doesn't want to be there."

A loving God wouldn't have a Lake of Fire built into his Universe with which to "separate" (ie burn for eternity) people.

"Why would God subject someone that didn't want him on Earth to be with him forever?"

Is God on Earth? Because he seems entirely absent from the Universe as a whole.

This is the analogy that occurs to me. Many people call God a Watchmaker. God is meant to be perfect but it's clear that we are not perfect. God has created the watches all with free will to choose what time they want to show. So Adam and Eve would be the first two watches, they started out showing the correct time but chose to show a time contrary to God's time. But now God is destroying the watches for doing what he wanted them too, for CHOOSING, and what's worse is that through the centuries God has stopped supplying the watches with the right time of day. Each religion has it's own beliefs about what time it really is and the watches set themselves by them.

Even within Christianity there are thousands of sects, each reading the time a little different, each claiming to have the correct time.

At the end of time God is going to reveal the correct time and punish those watches who are not set by it. Jesus, in this analogy, would be a man sent to live out a life wearing the correct time as an example. Sending Jesus does nothing to clear the confusion, as Jesus is just another figure swimming in the endless sea of mythologies all claiming to have the correct time.

Surely you see that there is NO CONTEXT for the watches in this analogy to determine which time is correct. Some may look at the story of Jesus and scoff and become Muslims or remain Jews, believing that Jesus did not wear the right time of day at all. To make matters more confusing the Bible, supposedly containing God's Holy Time to help the watches out, contradicts itself, claiming that on the one hand we must be responsible for the log in our own eye and also that the sins of the Father pass to his innocent children. Claiming that we must put out the eye of one who has blinded us while turning the other cheek.

As the watches gain more and more mythological baggage the true time becomes impossible to determine, a quagmire where every decision could spell damnation if they choose the wrong time. Someone might choose Islamic time only to find Hindu time was correct, or someone might follow after Jesus to meet their end in Jahannam.

So God is going to damn people for doing what he wanted them to do, choosing freely, and because he sent one man thousands of years ago you're willing to call that merciful.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm not trying to be rude, but your analogy of watches makes no sense at all. God is not like a watchmaker, and we are not like watches showing whatever time we want to show. God is not going to reveal to us the secret real time...you've got that all wrong. God didn't want to make us perfect..did you ever think of that? We're not like watches showing the correct/incorrect time....we're all sinners. Sinners that God loves anyway.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

The analogy makes perfect sense, I don't mean to be rude but if you don't get it perhaps you should re-read it.

"God didn't want to make us perfect.."

I never said he did, in fact in the analogy I specified that God made the watches purposefully imperfect by giving them freedom to choose what time they showed. You see in the analogy all those who aren't wearing the correct time are the sinners.

Here's something I think even you can understand. You claim that God gave people free will because he doesn't want ROBOTS and that's why he made us imperfect. If God doesn't want robots why is he so angry, to the point of murderous genocidal wrath, when his imperfect creations show their imperfections? If God doesn't want blind robots that follow his biding than why is choosing to sin such a bad thing? God keeps demanding that people follow his commands and that if they waver, EVEN IN THEIR THOUGHTS (take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ), he can and will punish them for eternity. NONE OF THAT makes any sense AT ALL if God "didn't want robots".

God may as well have cloned himself if he was just going to start drowning people and wiping civilizations off the map the moment his purposefully flawed creation began to deviate from an untenable standard of perfection.

If God wants to create beings that think and feel independently, even INDIVIDUALLY, he cannot then impose upon them a binding moral code the breaking of which incurs ETERNAL DAMNATION AND WRATH.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I get that your saying that a perfect God should not have made imperfect creatures, and that he should not punish anyone. However, God gives us a choice.

It all makes sense when you realize that God sent His son to die for our sins, so that we don't HAVE to have the right time on our watches when He returns. God knows we won't have the correct time. For those who follow the Lord, it won't matter what time they have on their clocks. For those who go their own way, they need to account for themselves.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"However, God gives us a choice."

No. Holding a gun to your head and telling you to obey or get shot is not a choice. God saying, "Repent or you will burn in Hell" is not a choice, its a hostage situation.

"It all makes sense when you realize that God sent His son..."

Let me stop you there, how does it makes sense, at all, for a male gender God to have a son without having a wife?

"so that we don't HAVE to have the right time on our watches when He returns."

If God had any understanding of the basic concept of Justice he would never have decided to judge human beings by the criteria of perfection. God has perfect uniform moral standards yes? It is the height of injustice for him to apply those perfect standards to all of humanity, a creature he has specifically created to think and feel independently of him and independently of fellow human beings. A being created specifically to be imperfect, and then damned for not living up to perfection, could anything be more UNJUST?

God providing a loophole in the form of Jesus doesn't make it suddenly "make sense". It wouldn't make up for creating a world in which people come out of the womb pre-damned.

" For those who follow the Lord, it won't matter what time they have on their clocks"

Which is one of the fundamental problems with Jesus in the Bible. Human beings can sin all they please as long as before they die they offer a heartfelt prayer and accept Christ. Even the most evil deeds could be washed away, while MORALLY GOOD folks who just happen to not accept Christianity would go to Hell. So introducing Jesus makes the system even more unjust.

"For those who go their own way, they need to account for themselves."

As I said, it doesn't make sense for God to want to create imperfect independent beings and then turn around and demand that they obey his every command and whim without fail under penalty of damnation. The introduction of Jesus just makes "going your own way" into a sin punishable by Hellfire, while if you commit mass murder BUT get right with Jesus in prison you can walk through the pearly gates.


John 14:6 3 years ago

“You've given an excellent recap of the mythology as I understand it, but haven't really explained what Jesus was SAVING us from, unless Hell is your answer.”

By taking the sins of the world on himself, Jesus saved us from judgment. I like to think of it like a piece of paper that lists every sin we have ever committed. While God is loving, he is also just and holds man accountable for their actions. When a man commits a crime like stealing for instance, he is guilty of a crime and is therefore deserving of punishment. The blood of Jesus works like Whiteout erasing the paper that lists our crimes so that we are saved from the punishment we deserve. I would like to point out the difference between the verses Isaiah 61: 1-2 and Luke 4: 18-19 to emphasize what Jesus did. Isaiah 61: 1-2 says, “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God”. In referencing this verse in Luke, Jesus said, “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
 and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Notice that Jesus erases the day of vengeance in his reference to the Old Testament verse. This tactful omission shows us what Jesus saved us from, he saved us from the judgment that our actions deserve.

“The Bible personifies God as a King and final Judge, so yeah, he's doing the sentencing according to the Bible. According to the book of Revelation "choosing" Hell is as simple as being a liar, a coward or a magician. The definition of Hell as separation from God isn't Biblical and doesn't make sense considering God's omnipresence”

I’m sorry, I should have been clearer on my definition of Hell. First, yes God is the final judge but Jesus is our lawyer. Although the charges are clear and the punishment should be inevitable, Jesus stands up and says, that time has already been served with my blood and is therefore erased. In terms of Hell, the question arises why God would create something that seems so cruel? First, you must remember that Hell was not designed for mankind but rather for fallen angels namely Satan who rebelled against God in paradise. On Earth, God sent his son so that we could come into a personal relationship with him. Since by simply stating and believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins you are guaranteed Heaven, if you’re in Hell, you have shown your decision to not accept the sacrifice Jesus made for you. Because you haven’t had your sins atoned for through Jesus’ blood, the relationship between you and God remains severed. While God is omnipresent even in Hell, he offers you a chance on earth to choose to be wholly with him out of love. By choosing not to accept Jesus you say I don’t want your love and you separate yourself from God with your sin. This separation is out of a failure to acknowledge the sacrifice that was made in your place. Therefore, you do choose to exist in a severed relationship with God in Hell.

In terms of your point on a liar, coward, or magician, the verse you are referencing in Revelation is Revelation 21:8. In context the verse reads, “6 He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.’” While yes the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, etc. will be sent to Hell, notice that right before this passage it states the second option and that all we have to do is ask God and he will gives us the water of life. This opportunity to ask or not ask is a choice; if we ask for God we will receive him.

FREE CHOICE

Is God on Earth? Because he seems entirely absent from the Universe as a whole. This is the analogy that occurs to me. Many people call God a Watchmaker. God is meant to be perfect but it's clear that we are not perfect. God has created the watches all with free will to choose what time they want to show. So Adam and Eve would be the first two watches, they started out showing the correct time but chose to show a time contrary to God's time. But now God is destroying the watches for doing what he wanted them too, for CHOOSING, and what's worse is that through the centuries God has stopped supplying the watches with the right time of day. Each religion has it's own beliefs about what time it really is and the watches set themselves by them.

Even within Christianity there are thousands of sects, each reading the time a little different, each claiming to have the correct time.

At the end of time God is going to reveal the correct time and punish those watches who are not set by it. Jesus, in this analogy, would be a man sent to live out a life wearing the correct time as an example. Sending Jesus does nothing to clear the confusion, as Jesus is just another figure swimming in the endless sea of mythologies all claiming to have the correct time.

Surely you see that there is NO CONTEXT for the watches in this analogy to determine which time is correct. Some may look at the story of Jesus and scoff and become Muslims or remain Jews, believing that Jesus did not wear the right time of day at all. To make matters more confusing the Bible, supposedly containing God's Holy Time to help the watches out, contradicts itself, claiming that on the one hand we must be responsible for the log in our own eye and also that the sins of the Father pass to his innocent children. Claiming that we must put out the eye of one who has blinded us while turning the other cheek.

As the watches gain more and more mythological baggage the true time becomes impossible to determine, a quagmire where every decision could spell damnation if they choose the wrong time. Someone might choose Islamic time only to find Hindu time was correct, or someone might follow after Jesus to meet their end in Jahannam.

If I understand your analogy correctly, it sounds as if it is impossible to know what ‘time’ it really is and that all religions have a watch that’s set to a different time. While Jesus claimed to know the right time, he is just another man of many who was telling people how to set their watches. Since God only allows people with a watch that reads a specific ‘time’ into heaven, and he leaves us a dial to set our watch to whatever we want, he is unfair and cruel.

First, there are many reasons to believe that Jesus knew the right time. One, the historical proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was deemed a big enough threat that Pontius Pilate executed him (the non-Christian writings of Tacitus and Josephus) is undeniable. While just being a historical person is of no significant importance, the acknowledgement of Jesus by other religions as either a prophet or a good man (Islam and Judaism for instance) is unique to him. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God. In acknowledging that Jesus wasn’t some lunatic but was a good man, his profession that he ‘knew the right time’ gains significant credence. I think a good analogy would be to say God is throwing a big concert in Heaven and the only way to get tickets is to go to Jesus. While some people will go to StubHub and others will go to Ticket Master, at the end of the day if you have a ticket, you will get in. Although Christians may take different views and therefore get their tickets slightly differently, by simply professing with their mouths that Jesus is Lord and believing in their hearts that he died on the cross for our sins, the Bible says they will get a ticket into the concert. This opportu


John 14:6 3 years ago

..opportunity that all you need is a ticket to get in at no cost to you is merciful. But, if you show up to the concert without a ticket you simply will be denied entrance. If you don’t look to Jesus, you won’t get into heaven. It’s not cruel, it’s just a choice, you didn’t ask for a ticket so they didn’t let you in. In addition to this, God shows his mercy in exactly the fact that we don’t need some exact time to get into heaven. I’ll admit I don’t know and will never know the perfect way to worship God and anyone that says they do is wrong. Regardless, even if I don’t say the right prayers or go to church at the right time, by accepting Jesus I have guaranteed myself a seat at the concert that is Heaven.

I would have to disagree with your argument that the right time is impossible to determine. I think everyone is looking at God’s watch to adjust their time to but some people have glasses on that blur what the real time is. Just because some people don’t read the time right doesn’t mean everyone that reads it is wrong. The sheer fact that ‘God has a watch’ means there must be a right time. Questioning why Christianity is right over other religions is a completely separate argument that would take more than a simple discussion post to answer. Here is a website that makes some good points, http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html

I want to make it clear that I appreciate you’re quest to find truth. The question of what happens to us after we die is one of the biggest and most important questions we come to as humans. While you probably will disagree with a lot of my points, I would encourage you to continue postulating over these things. The gravity of eternity and life after death deserves active thought and searching through every possibility. Whether you come to the conclusion after logically looking at every detail and option that there is nothing after this or whether you come to the conclusion that there is a God and there is a Heaven, please look at everything objectively without biased. Often times I have seen that it is the case that, “The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.” While I firmly believe that if you look for God you will find him, I implore you to at least look at evidence without the ulterior motive of just disproving him; be objective.


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Jisblessed 3 years ago

God so loved the WORLD that he gave his ONLY SON to die for the sin involving everyone on the planet. (sin) the one Adam committed that condemned the World. God redeemed(removed sin) the WORLD through Jesus Chris (Last Adam) to put it back in connection and fellowship with God the way it was before First Adam sinned.

When Jesus said it is Finished! it a done deal! God said heaven and earth will pass away before any part of my word fails or pass away. Now salvation is free and it saves us from that day of judgement that God only knows when it will be. The whole world is saved right now but have to accept the way of escape of Judgement by accepting the finish work of Jesus Christ. Accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of the World and yet making it personal of me or of you. And then God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost will come inside your mortal body and live and lead and guide in grace through faith of the finished work of Jesus Christ.

God will reveal himself to you in the fullness of the Godhead. He will teach you who he is and his ways (thoughts, concept, ideas, inventions, character, most of his love) and show you his acts (miracles) only God who chooses to do it through Jesus (glory and honor for his purpose/sacrifice) can reveal or causes a person to understand him. Another person can try hard to explain it but the answers to anyone questions about who, what when and how about God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can only be answered by seeking the face of God with an open mind to know the truth. Not by testing God or in doubt. He that comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a re warder of them that diligently seek him.

It's good to study the bible and try to see why it seems to contradicts but it's better and so awesome to hear from the Holy Ghost the corrections of the scriptures where the son of man failed in a few of the translation to make it more clear to the true meaning of scripture. An opened mind/heart to the truth will forgive and appreciate the translators efforts and applaud/worship our Creator, our Heavenly Father's omniscience in keeping us from deception about who he is and who we are in him. But if this Gospel be hid, it is hid from them that are lost. And I believe God wants you found. I hope this helps in some way.


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

“his ONLY SON to die for the sin involving everyone on the planet. (sin) the one Adam committed that condemned the World”

Adam did not condemn the world, God did. God decided to allow Adam's sin to pass to Adam's offspring and to curse his creation for all generations hence. Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit, but that was the extent of it, it was God's choice to let this minor act of disobedience damn everyone else.

“God redeemed(removed sin) the WORLD”

Except that Jesus has been dead for over 2000 years and the world is still full of sin. So when was sin removed?

“The whole world is saved right now but have to accept the way of escape of Judgement by accepting the finish work of Jesus Christ.”

So then Jesus hasn't saved the whole world, he's saved only the select few willing to believe in him. So whether or not you go to Hell or Heaven has nothing to do with whether you were a good or moral person, but on whether you accepted a story about some guy 2000 years ago coming back to life?

“And then God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost will come inside your mortal body and live and lead and guide in grace through faith of the finished work of Jesus Christ...God will reveal himself to you in the fullness of the Godhead.”

No thanks, all of that sounds kind of, what's the word, RAPEY, to me.

“can only be answered by seeking the face of God with an open mind to know the truth”

I did that, for quite a number of years I sought to find the truth about God. You know where it led me? FAR AWAY from the barbaric God of Christianity. I wouldn't claim to have found the truth even now, but I have determined many belief systems to be untenable morally and especially logically, Christianity being one of those which simply doesn't have a leg to stand on.

“And I believe God wants you found. I hope this helps in some way.”

Thanks for your comment.


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Jisblessed 3 years ago

You are right Adam didn't condemn the world, I didn't mean to imply he did. My wording may have been misunderstood. I did mean because of Adam disobedience, God Condemn the whole World and to add to that by second Adam obedience the whole world is made free. They only have to believe in Jesus, not a just a story but a TRUE testimony (witness).

Sin was removed in Christ finish work at the cross and resurrection. The sin First Adam did has been removed by God choice to let Jesus die once and for all sin and gave us instructions on how to be free from the sins committed every day. Everyone haven't chosen Jesus as Lord and Savior. Maybe a better choice of words would be the Vail of the temple was rent and we no longer need Priest to offer up sacrifices for our sins. We been restored back with God as if Adam have never sinned and had fellowship with God daily; so can we. That's the SIN not sins that we do daily. Jesus took that SIN away. The one that stopped mankind from having fellowship with him. Only Jews was to be saved at one time. But now, gentiles, the rest of the world are saved. Jew and Gentiles alike must accept Jesus finished work and become a Believer. Just as God pass judgement on us for what Adam did, he has abundantly pardon us by what Jesus did. An exchange took place at the Cross by the will of God. He crowned Jesus with glory and honor. He did what no other man could do. So the sins that's still going on is only because people haven't come to the knowledge of the Truth and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. But what if everyone did come, did believe? Then the manifestation would be and the world would be at PEACE as God give it.

Jesus has saved the whole world but the whole world haven't accepted him. All it takes is one word when asked do you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, YES. That's it! they are saved. It's like someone putting a million dollars in my bank account and I don't know it. I have a million in debt that the million will wipe out but I don't know I have it. And the person see me and say, I put a million in your account do you want it? My answer is YES!... I didn't work for it, didn't do anything it was given to me. Just as being a sinned came upon me, didn't do anything born into it, and just as salvation I don't have to work for it or do anything, but must be born again. God's sovereign plan. Both sides, I accepted it.

So yes, must accept the witnesses of Christ. And you never lose salvation but can fall from Grace.

Christianity as it's called is followers of Jesus striving to be like him and sometimes we get lost along the way. Like Shepherds guiding sheep and sheep goes astray. What causes one to go astray? or what causes a Sheppard to go astray? We're both lured away by some enticement that leads us away from the Truth by whatever devices our enemy tries. I don't see God as barbaric; as with anything in this world is subject to be lured away by pain, emotions, belief system, things of the world and it bring confusion to us who seek after the Truth. Confusion; God is not the Author of it. Someone doesn't want us to know the Truth which causes some of us to believe Christianity doesn't have a leg to stand on. Do you believe there is a God of heaven and earth? If so call on him and ask him for a personal relationship, to reveal himself, show you the Truth. And you choose not to be called Christian but simple a Believer (in Christ). I believe he will do it!

Thank you for your comments and questions. I believe!


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

@Jisblessed

" Then the manifestation would be and the world would be at PEACE as God give it."

I don't think we would have world peace if everyone were Christian. Christianity is fragmented into thousands of different sects who all believe very different things. Temptation is not something that would vanish from the world if everyone were Christian and I hope that is not what you're suggesting. If temptation exists than so will sin - unless you are suggesting that if everyone were converted the world would become a perfect utopia, and, seeing the way the Catholic Church, and other churches work, I have my doubts.

"My answer is YES!... I didn't work for it, didn't do anything it was given to me."

The difference is that God is the reason you're in debt to begin with. God chose to hold mankind accountable according to a perfect moral standard even though human beings are imperfect. God's moral standards are perfect, anything out of line with them is sinful. Following your analogy when Adam sinned God decided to plunge the world into massive debt and than sent Jesus to wipe out this debt BUT if you don't accept this gift you go to debtors prison, a horrible squalid place where you go for all eternity.

It's like saying "here's free money" and when the person is skeptical and says "I don't want any" you put threaten them with torture. To make matters worse for the analogy to make sense Christianity isn't the only BANK out there, there are MANY religions all of which offer some kind of gift or salvation and which promise PUNISHMENT if you bank with the wrong people. Even more laughable the "banks" in the analogy offer no evidence that any of the money in the exchange is even REAL money, they simply make you BELIEVE you are in debt to them and than offer a convenient solution they just "happened" to have.

"Someone doesn't want us to know the Truth which causes some of us to believe Christianity doesn't have a leg to stand on."

Satan isn't the one threatening people with Hell, that's God. If God wanted people to know the truth he would make the truth evident to all people, without fail, because a perfect God cannot fail without choosing to do so.

I don't believe in a any gods and believe me I spent ages 8-22 praying, seeking and studying various religions. I was a Christian, I was a deist, I was a pantheist, I believed in aliens and for a time I believed in reincarnation. I never saw a shred of evidence or had any God reveal themselves to me despite my sincere belief and desire for truth.

In the end logic, skepticism, science and empathy overturned every religious and superstitious belief I ever held. It is those four things that guide me toward the truth now because they've shown to be reliable when used together.


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Jisblessed 3 years ago

I don't think the world would be at peace if everyone was a Christian, But it would be in lots better shape than it is right now. I was trying to get you to vision life before the fall of man. This is what God intended and still intends for us. This is in fact a fallen world and will be so until judgement day. So no, temptations won't vanish from this world if everyone were Christians. Reason why is because the earth is cursed (Gen 2:7) and (Gen 2:19) show everything was made out of the ground (earth). Man and Beasts. When Adam sinned, the earth(ground) was cursed, (Gen 3:17). No where I see the earth redeemed but (Rev 21: 1) John saw a new heaven and a new earth. (note) heaven and earth was joined together until the fall. Can I share something with you that makes me to know heaven is real? Read Rev 21: 18. I saw that in a night vision!. This earth can't be saved, but the people upon the earth can be. He could have ended everything with Adam but he didn't because He loved His creation. And He wants it just the way he created it. And He wants His creation to want Him, willingly, not like robots but Love Him as He Loves us willingly.

You're so right about Christianity is fragmented into thousands of different sects who all believe very different things. And that's the work of the enemy of Christ to stop people from believing and coming to Christ. The free will of God for man comes into play also. We can choose what we believe. God doesn't make us believe Him, He wants us to choose to believe Him no matter what's going on in our lives. He's our Father, Creator and Helper. Just as earthly Fathers instructs us, teach us, commands us, so it is with our heavenly Father. The tempter knows that and uses it against us. He can't make us but can present the temptations. We choose. Every man is responsible for the choices he/she makes; not God or the tempter. As you know, we make a lot of bad decisions and give in to a lot temptations. God saw that we couldn't make right decisions all the time with the temptation factor. God planned a redemption for man (Blood of Jesus). Part of the plan is God will creates a new heaven and new earth. That day is coming.

Though temptation wouldn't stop if everyone was Christian and following Jesus, they would be apart of the new heaven and new earth. That's the picture I see for mankind. And though we have to wait on that day, we get to experience heaven on earth through trials, and temptations and tribulations. We get to see how Good God really is when we believe.

God have made the way so plain and easy that anyone knowing the Truth of Grace and Faith would gladly say YES to God. God has made truth available to us through Jesus. We don't need Christianity or a Pastor to give us the Truth. Jesus, Holy Spirit, will lead us into all Truth. God knew man could and would fail because of the Tempter. He always appeal to our reasoning to deceive us. He didn't make Eve eat, but he caused her to reason with what God said and talked(tempted) her out of it. Satan's not threatening people with hell but he's sure tempting them to go, to disobey God, not believe God.

To me it's more like Free Money and though I may be skeptical and say I don't want any. But if deep down inside me, I really would like to have it, I believe God will touch my heart (vision or voice) or someone I can believe to come along and say it is well, no harm can come to you, it's there to supply your need, take it. He won't let me go without a fight for me to have that money. I think He'll keep nudging for awhile.

God has given me full proof that He and Heaven and Angels good and bad are very very Real. I do wonder if He did not show you anything, if it was because you was looking outwardly for a sign and not inwardly first. He deals with each of us differently.

I believe as he told Thomas, (St. John 20:27-29) because thou has seen me; thou has believed: Blessed! are they that have not seen me, and yet have Believed! I believe people believing in God without seeing have Greater! Faith! than those of us who have seen. And that Even if you never see a vision but you will see Him at work in everything you invite Him into. Like the wind, you can't see it but you feel it and know it's there. You see it effects on leaves, grass, clothes or hair. You will see the effects of Jesus in your heart and every situation and circumstance. If you call on Him now, I believe He will answer. Maybe not the way you expect but don't expect a certain way, let Him be in control of that, just Believe He will and you'll see Him when you least expect. That's if you really want to know He's real.


Ellie 3 years ago

Hi there all, I just wanted to kindly remind you all to watch your language, and stop the swearing. Thank you. Ow and to the author of this hub, I Hope That You Do Find God Again Soon. x


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Yes, we'd better watch our language in a discussion about a death-cult that wants us all to be "washed in the blood", because a few four letters words would be the disturbing part ;)


Lybrah 3 years ago

Christianity is not a death-cult.


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Yes, Christianity IS a death cult, or, if you'd prefer, a religion centered around the death of a central figure (martyr). The main tenant of Christianity is that someone died for you right, John 3:16? Jesus was supposedly beaten and nailed to a cross and you are meant to symbolically bathe in his blood in order to be washed of sins. Communion, one of the most widespread Christian rituals, involves symbolically devouring human flesh and blood as an act of remembrance for Jesus' sacrifice.

I went to church, I remember hymns about washing in the blood, about the wonders of Calvary and the "old rugged cross". Many people wear crucifixes around their necks to this day, think of that, an ancient method of execution is your religions main symbol. Not a death-cult? HA!

"He is not a lich. He is the living son of God!"

You said he wasn't a zombie, I agree, he fits the description of a lich a lot better. I don't think Jesus is actually a lich, in fact there's very little, if any, evidence that Jesus ever lived at all.


Lybrah 3 years ago

You don't like who God is, and you don't want to obey His rules, so you choose not to believe in Him, and then that makes everything okay, right? I take it you're a lot happier now? I don't think so.

The crucifix is actually a symbol of life, and hope. That's what Jesus has brought to us. The act of Communion is to "be one with God." Not literally eat flesh and drink blood, but to receive Him.


karthikkash profile image

karthikkash 3 years ago from India

I am not an atheist, but I support your views :) I have often wondered how Christians can be so deluded?

They listen to a pedophile (woo!! how sinful is that??) who sits in the Vatican. They say that Bible is god's word (err.. 12 people putting together their own interpretation about what Jesus said, especially after burning the remaining stuff which they didn't deem fit?? And all those 12 people have their own versions.. hmm. Interestingly, god's words are incoherent).

Moreover, god's words changes every time there is a new translation in the bible. The original old testament which is bloody, gory, brutal and sexually explicit becomes so mellow and peaceful in the last 100 years Oh!! I hear them saying, "all those blood and massacre were not literal statements". I bet killing thousands of heretics in the name of god didn't happen either. God became so peaceful only after 3,000 years? I can only imagine how much blood lust the god must have had 3,000 years ago when Moses brought down god's word.

And then there is a god man who announces a month ago in Brazil that people can now expedite their journey to heaven and absolved from their sins, OVER INTERNET?? WOW!! Interesting god and god's men are..

Interestingly, their god who "created the heaven and earth" has troubles in putting down a simple human language. He says, let "us" create them in "our image". And then suddenly says that he is the only god.. Maybe his language was unrefined as he was the first being in the universe (or) he was still learning human language and he didn't know how to communicate.

He also has problems with people living their life. He wants all humanity to worship him or they will be either brutally tortured, massacred, forcefully converted or spend time in eternal fiery hell. Kind of an attention seeking child who plays with human souls as if they were worthless and meaningless to him, I must say. Interestingly civilizations who worshiped other pagan gods thousands of years ago were devil worshipers?? Well, well, well!! Hell must be crowded because Jesus and God damned all those millions of souls into eternal fire (even thousands of spiritual souls).

And wait!! Did I mention that he has also memory problems. Or is it that he is plain fickle minded? He tells one thing some time and the next day he changes his word. And he needs a personal assistant on earth like Moses and all who need to give him advice time to time that if the ''God" goes on killing non-believers, there will be no humans left.

And then there is poor Satan/Lucifer (ooh, here comes the person from Harry Potter.. he whose name should not be taken). A guy who was kicked out of heaven because he offered humans knowledge, an ability to question things, an ability to reason, an ability to differentiate right from the wrong, a person because of whom Adam asked god why he was standing naked while the god(s) were dressed (Awkward!!). OMG!! How vengeful must their god be. A sin Adam and Eve committed for we which humans have been paying for almost 6000 freaking years!! Or did he really want us to remain eternal zombies, who can't question him?? Oh wait!! I shouldn't question him, or I will burn in hell!!Because Jesus/god knows best what is good for me.

If he kills, someone he does it out of love, if he allows people to massacre each other in the name of religion, he does it out of love for humanity, if he creates terrorism, he does it out of love, if people are dying from Cancer or any other disease, he does it out of love. There is so much love we see in god, in the death and destruction of humanity in his name.

And again Satan is blamed for every damn thing what god does.. God brings floods, Satan is responsible. God kills thousands of people who are non-believers, Satan is responsible. Science wants to advance, it is Satan's doing. People want to learn Yoga and other esoteric knowledge.. Ooh!! What a BLASPHEMY!! Jesus warns you against growing your own potential. "Thou shalt not advance yourself, but only beggeth God for mercy!!" Because everything else apart from "begging" is evil. Because Jesus saves us!!

How many "Christians" even know that the red guy with two horns, one pointed tail and a pitchfork was a 13th century creation? Not many. And suddenly all the evil is attached to him. I wonder who wanted the Christians to kill the "heretics" before that.

Jesus didn't save someone from Cancer, or someone who is about to get hit on the road due to a drunken driver!! Or at least some poor children in Somalia.. Nay!! Jesus saves only those who believe in Heaven and the Bible!! And those who are poor, don't offer them food, water and medicines. Give them a Bible, and ask them to chant Jesus's name. Everything will be fine.

Everyone and everything else can go to Hell!! But Jesus saves Christians!! What a joke!!

I don't hate Christians. But this deluded notion of their god and Bible, someone seriously needs to rescue them.


John 2 years ago

What I can tell you is this:

At the age of 38, God showed me I was going to hell and there was not anything I could do about it. Six months later He offered me a choice - trust Jesus and hand over control of my life, or live life my way and go to hell. I did not want give up control so I thought about it, it was a very hard choice because giving up control was against my basic instinct. After a day I decided to trust Jesus and, alone in my room, I asked Him to save me (handed over control) - He answered immediately, in fact before I had finished the very short sentence (I then started reading the Bible and could understand it, and I was amazed to discover the Bible described in detail what I experienced when Jesus saved me). I really did not understand how I had been saved or why, but over the years I have learned more about the how and why.

I am very very grateful to be have been saved from Hell, and surprised and grateful to discover that I had received the Spirit of God who has worked within me so that the ten commandments have become the ten promises. I have since, for the last 23 years, been on journey of transformation where the perfect Spirit of God has slowly transformed me to be a better loving person. I do not act perfectly because I still have the imperfect flesh that opposes the perfect Spirit of God within me.

One day, when my time is up, I will leave behind my imperfect body, and my real self which is made perfect by Jesus will go home to perfect heaven. An imperfect person who is not cleansed of their sins cannot enter perfect heaven, because, if they did then heaven would no longer be perfect because it would have them in it, and therefore it would no longer be heaven. The alternative to heaven is imperfect Hell, which is really separation from perfect heaven. In heaven the perfect will of God is done and is wanted to be done by those who have their home there. Hell is to be in the absence of God and anything good. There is nothing good about hell, it is a place of absolute rejection, loneliness, hopelessness and dread, and is so bad that I would not wish it on the worst person in history.

I thank Jesus for saving me and I thank the Holy Spirit for being with me night and day - I have never been alone now for 23 years, and never will be.


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Titen-Sxull 2 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Six months later He offered me a choice - trust Jesus and hand over control of my life, or live life my way and go to hell."

So rather than remain a free man you decided to be God's slave? Yeah no thanks, I'd much rather spend eternity in Hell than bow to the monster that created it.

I'm also curious as to how God "SHOWED" this to you, if you mean a dream, a vision or a picture in your head than why would you believe it actually happened?

"He answered immediately"

In what way did he answer?

" been on journey of transformation where the perfect Spirit of God has slowly transformed me to be a better loving person"

People can believe in God and be assholes for the rest of their life. And at the same time people who aren't believers can be better more loving people. This is not something that requires the "SPIRIT OF GOD" or any other superstitious or supernatural forces. Also I'm still curious as to how a violent and evil God like Yahweh makes you a more loving person, we're talking about the same deity who told Abraham that in order to prove his loyalty he had to perform a human sacrifice on his own son.

"There is nothing good about hell, it is a place of absolute rejection, loneliness, hopelessness and dread, and is so bad that I would not wish it on the worst person in history."

Now ask yourself, as I once did when I was a Christian struggling through the Bible in search of the real and actual truth, why a loving and merciful and wonderful God would ever, in a million fucking years, create a place of absolute rejection, loneliness, hopelessness and dread? For as you said, even the WORST PERSON IN HISTORY, doesn't deserve Hell in your eyes. And are your standards not LESS merciful than Gods? You have just proven that you are more kind and loving than your own God, and certainly above giving worship and adulation to such a monster.

Luckily John you have become a good person all on your own, whether you realize it or not, and if you come out of the shadows and quit groveling you'll wonder why you let yourself fall victim to Stockholm syndrome on a kidnapper that doesn't even exist.


Brenda 23 months ago

He saves you from the absence of love.

All other benefits from a relationship with Him is overflow.

He loves you and wants your love and trust in return.

Religion brings about emotional responses.

That's not what it's about.

Ask Him to prove His "realness".

Sincerely ask Him.

Wrestle with Him.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"He saves you from the absence of love"

There is love in the real world with real people. Love with an invisible immortal Jew born in the first century doesn't interest me and sounds both ludicrous and untrue.

"All other benefits from a relationship with Him is overflow."

I used to be a Christian, so I'm not sure what these benefits are, because I never saw any of them.

"He loves you and wants your love and trust in return."

Now if this Jesus fellow wants me to love him can't he tell me himself, or does he only use semi-anonymous guest users and ancient manuscripts about magic and miracles? In any case you can tell Jesus that I neither need nor want his love, so Jesus' love goes unrequited unfortunately he'll have to continue admiring me from afar but that's fine because I've never seen or heard from him either so really how much can if be said that he loves me?

"Ask Him to prove His "realness" "

Sounds like something a rap artist proves when he's called out for not being hardcore enough. At any rate I used to be a Christian and did plenty of seeking God, Jesus and then after leaving Christianity I sought out any God, anything supernatural, anything paranormal. I never found any realness to any of these no matter how sincere or in what way the search was conducted.

"Wrestle with Him"

He might try to touch me the way he did Jacob, on the inner thigh, where I come from that's what we call a "bad touch".

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