Should You Believe in the Trinity? - 2 of 2

This is a continuation of Should You Believe in the Trinity? - 1 of 2, which covered the following:

  • The First Commandment
  • The Root of Protestant Churches = Catholicism
  • Alterations to the Holy Bible
  • The Trinity added to the Textus Receptus
  • Interpreting “Us”, “Our” and “We” Passages
  • The Person of God
  • The 'Trinty' at the Baptism of Jesus
  • Not My will, but Thy will be done

Why is Elohim Plural?

The Strongs Concordance gives us the definition of 'Elohim' as follows: “Short Definition: Angels. Long Definition: angels, exceeding, God, very great, mighty; Plural of elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates [court]; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.”

Based on the full definition of ‘Elohim’, we can see that it represents God Himself, His greatness and power, and includes angels and magistrates (court, judges). Did you also know that the children of God are included in ‘elohim’, based on the Word of God? Truly, “sons of the Most High” are called ‘elohim’ in both Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34.

The Jews knew God as 'Elohim' since Gen 1:1 was penned, yet never made Him into more than one God. It is notable to understand that back in those days, men of royalty would often refer to themselves in the plural sense, as shown in Ezra 4:11, 18; Dan 2:36. While ‘Elohim’ is translated ‘gods’ in the ordinary sense, it is specifically used with the singular article 'the' when referring to 'the LORD God'.

The Word was With God

John 1:1-2 tell us “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” This verse, once again, is NOT translated according to the original Greek.

Look up the word “with” in the Greek. It is actually the word “pros”, meaning “to”. This would therefore, be translated “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was to elohim, [G: theon - object] and God [G: Theos - subject] was the Word. The same was in the beginning to elohim [G: theon - object].” We’ve already discussed the meaning of 'elohim', so this could indicate many things. The same word, “pros” is used in the following:

  • In the creation, God spoke to His angels and heavenly hosts (elohim).
  • The Word of God came to us [elohim/theon] (John 10:35)
  • Prophetically, God in the flesh (the Son), after rising from the dead, returned to the Father God - Elohim (John 16:10).
  • Prophetically, God (the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ) returned to us (elohim) on the Day of Pentecost (John 14:18; Acts 2).

Let’s now look at John 17:5 for a moment. Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, the night He was betrayed: “And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.” To understand what He’s praying more fully, we need to begin with verse 1, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify You.” What does He mean about “the glory which I had with Thee before the world was”? He did not exist as the “Son” or the “Lamb” at that time, but surely God fore-ordained how He would become the Savior of the world in Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the Antichrist], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” We know the Lamb was not slain at the foundation of the world, so Rev 13:8 was prophetic and Jesus’ prayer, subsequent arrest, crucifixion and resurrection was the fulfillment of that prophecy in John 17:5.

Stephen saw God and the Son at His right hand

Acts 7:55 states, “But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

Does this say Stephen saw God as a ‘person’ next to Jesus as a ‘person’? No. It specifically states he saw “the glory of God” (ref Ez 1:28) and “Jesus standing on the right hand of God”.

What is glory? - “substance, splendor, essence”; for God is invisible (Rom 1:20; Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb 11:27). 2 Cor 4:4-6 states, "in whose case the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord [Greek Kurios/Hebrew Yehovah], and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Speaking of glory, let's now go to 1 Cor 11:3, which states, "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God." It is imperative that you read the very first verse in this chapter to understand: "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." As you know, Paul was an Apostle and church-planter (a type of 'head' of the 'Church'). Consider what Paul 'saw' when He met Jesus on the road to Damascus! "and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven...And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus..." Yes, God is invisible.

The rest of the chapter gives us the spiritual message, specifically talking about the 'covering' (a symbol of salvation), as relates to the marriage relationship. The wife is 'covered' by her husband. However, vs 7 states the husband is not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God. We can align this passage to Eph 5 and the mystery contained therein. Now, you can take this or leave it, but according to the interlinear translation of 1 Cor 11:3, it states, "the head of every man [andros - man] is the annointed [Christos]; and the head of the woman [gynaikos - woman] [is] the man [aner - husband]; and the head of the annointed [christou] is God."

As Christ is the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person (Heb 1:3), 1 Cor 11:7 states the man [husband] is the “glory of God” and woman [wife] is the “glory of man”. If you read a like passage in Eph 5:23, it states, "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the Church.". God is the Husband to Israel (Jer 31:32); Christ is the Husband of the Bride, who is the Church (Eph 5:32). Are these two separate Gods with two separate Brides? No. Since the Church is grafted into Israel, and natural-born Israel is not necessarily part of the Church, the Bride consists of all believers, who are the true Israel of God (Romans 11).

The term 'right hand' simply means 'power' (Ex 16:15; Ps 89:13; Heb 1:3 & 8). God doesn’t have a literal right hand or right side. Again, God is invisible. Are you thinking to challenge John 1:18? Why don’t we…here we go again ~~~

The NIV states, “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made Him known.” This is incorrect!

Truly, the KJV is correct. “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him].” When was the Son begotten (born)? He was born once, not twice.

Jesus Christ is God’s visible image (Col 1:15). God told Moses in Ex 33:20 that he could NOT look at the face of God and live. The only way to ‘see God’ (even in Eden) and relate to Him (even in heaven) is in the ‘person’ of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus told Philip in John 14:9, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father’?” Truly, In Christ dwelt the fullness of the Deity bodily (Col 2:9). God in Christ and Christ is God.

Delivering up the Kingdom and Subjection of the Son

1 Cor 15:24-28 takes some deeper understanding: “Then [cometh] the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even [kai] the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Compare this to Col 3:11 “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.”

Since the KJV does not use capitalization; I have capitalized the word ‘He’ when it refers to Jesus and not capitalized the word ‘he’ when it refers to mankind. Did you notice some portions of this verse are past tense and some future? There is also a mystery in the word ‘Son(capitalization signifies Divinity), which I will cover in a moment.

When was all rule and all authority and power put down? In Mat 28:18, after His resurrection, “Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.” Eph 1:22 states, "And He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church." And Peter wrote of Jesus in 1 Pet 3:22, “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.” Does the reign of Christ EVER come to an end? No. The Bible states in the Old and New Testaments that His reign and kingdom will NEVER end.

The King of kings (the only Sovereign, Jesus Christ) must reign by intercession as Mediator for mankind as long as we are yet subjected to Satan’s wiles. It is the Lord Jesus who gives us the power to overcome the Adversary. Consider the 70 disciples in Luke 10:17 “And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name.” One day, we will no longer need a Mediator, after the last enemy of our physical death is destroyed. After our resurrection, the Lamb (Mediator) will have delivered up the kingdom to theo [the God], even/and [kai] the Father, “I AM”.

If you look up passages such as Gen 1:28, Dan 7:13-14 (vision) and vs 17, 22, 27-28 (interpretation), Ps 8:4-9 and Heb 2:5-9 you will see that God intends to restore the world to the way it was in the beginning. God and man, with mankind ruling over the earth ~ even the angels, under His Lordship (Gen 2; 1 Cor 6:3).

Now, who is the Son that is finally and fully subjected to God? “Son” is the Greek word “huios”. Compare this to the words of JESUS in Rev 21:7 “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son [huios].” This is speaking of the resurrected, divine children of God!

Other Pillars of the ‘Trinity’

My Father is Greater than I

Remember when Jesus said in John 14:28, My Father is greater than I”? God, the Holy Spirit, is omnipresent. His Spirit indwelt John the Baptist from the womb (Luke 1:15), yet John testified he was not the Christ (John 1:20). Like us, John had an earthly father. The Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son (Mat 1:18). By His Spirit, God emptied Himself to take on the flesh of the Son (Phil 2:7) by being “made [formed in His mother’s womb] a little lower than ‘elohim’”, which is translated ‘God’ in Ps 8:5 and ‘angels’ in Heb 2:9. Jesus alone existed in the form (morphe) of God and in the form (schema) and likeness (homoioma) of man.

Why do you call Me good?

In Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." This is a dead give-away to those who have 'ears to hear'. If there is ONLY ONE GOOD, the Bible declares Jesus Christ was holy, sinless, blameless, spotless, without blemish, perfect. Rom 3:23 declares that ALL HAVE SINNED, so none could be the sacrifice for the sin of mankind, but God alone.

The Son doesn’t know the Day nor the Hour

While the KJV translates Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only”, the Greek does not appear to include 'the Son'. In fact, the translation reads, "But about that the day and hour none knows not even those agents of those heavens if not the Father of Me only." The book of Matthew is the only gospel said to have been originally written in Hebrew. Was the translation from Hebrew into Greek altered? Based on what we covered in Part 1, it's very possible.

The more vital question is, "Did Jesus not know when He would return?" He actually revealed when He would return using this 'idiom'. Only a Jew would understand. Study about 'Rosh HaShana', also known as the 'Feast of Trumpets', and that unknown time-frame just before the new moon. No one could know this day until two witnesses observed the New Moon. Therefore, it was known as "the day that no one knows".

Jesus was born on Tishri 1 (the Feast of Trumpets); He was crucified on Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread; He rose again on the Feast of First Fruits; the Day of Pentecost happened at the Feast of Weeks/Shavuot...do you see any significance? (1 Thes 5:4)

Scriptures regarding Jesus knowing all things: John 16:30; 21:17

Another Comforter

In John 14:16 Jesus told His disciples, “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever.” Once again, we must look up the Greek word for another, which is allos’, meaning more of the same'. On the other hand, Jesus, after His resurrection, appeared in another form to two of His disciples in Mark 16:12. The Greek word used for ‘another’ here is ‘heteros, meaning different’, while ‘formis the Greek word ‘morphe’. Did He change the appearance of His resurrected body, and is this not consistent with God?

Jesus calls the Father 'My God'

Jesus refered to the Father as 'My God' when He was the Son of Man, in the flesh (Mat 27:46; John 20:17). In the first three chapters of Revelation, when Jesus gave John the words to write to the churches, He referred to God as 'My God'. There is only one (singular) way to the Father, and that is through faith in the Son, when it comes to the Church (John 14:6). In context, Jesus is yet the Mediator, and will be until the final enemy of man’s physical death is destroyed. Look at Rev 3:5. Now compare this to Mat 10:32 and Luke 12:8.

 

Jesus and the Holy Spirit make intercession for us

We just discussed the purpose for 'Mediation'. The thing we need to realize is God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are one in the same. Look at Rom 8:9: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.”

How does the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ intercede for us? In us and through us, for we are a kingdom of priests (Rom 8:26-27; Rev 5:10). Remember, "the LORD is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and He intercedes for us with groanings that cannot be uttered; this comes from within us when we pray, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought (Rom 8:26).

Let’s now take a look at what Jesus said to His disciples, pre-crucifixion, in John 16:26-27 “In that day you will ask in My name. I am NOT saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father Himself loves you because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.” This tells us clearly that there is NO Mediation of ‘the Son’ as a separate person because He is the Living God Himself ~ He is in us and we are in Him. He, the Living God, intercedes between sinful flesh and holiness, until our flesh dies and we are resurrected as immortal, holy children of God.

God and the Lamb in Revelation

Remember back in 1 Cor 15:24 we saw the kingdom having been delivered up to ‘God even [kai] the Father? In the same way, the phrase God and the Lamb’ is used throughout Revelation. The Greek word used for and[kai] is the same used in 1 Cor 15:24 for even[kai]. God and the Lamb is equal to the usage of ‘God and Savior’ shown in 54 other passages. God is also called God and Redeemer (Isa 44:6; 48:17; Ps 78:35; Acts 7:35). The prophets not only called the LORD God God and Savior (Is 45:15; Mic 7:7; 1 Chr 16:35, Ps 65:5; Hab 3:18), the Apostles referred to Jesus as 'God and Savior' (1 Tim 1:1; Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1).

Note who calls Himself the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the ‘First and the Last’ in Is 44:6 (Rev 1:8, 11; 21:6 and 22:13). In Is 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts" should not separate the King of Israel from 'his Redeemer', as Jesus is both King and Redeemer of Israel. The word 'his' is not capitalized in any verson and is rightly referring to Israel (Ex 4:22). Note who is in the midst of the THRONE in Rev 7:17? Jesus.

Let's take a moment to look at "God and the Lamb" in Rev 21:22. It is translated (not interpreted - there is a difference) as "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." The Greek word translated 'are' is 'estin', which is actually the word 'IS' [singular]. You can view this in the interlinear link here (from biblos.com):

Let's go on to Rev 22:3-4 "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne [singular] of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His (Whose? God's or the Lamb's?) bond-servants will serve Him (Who? God or the Lamb?); they will see His face (Whose face?), and His name (Whose name?) will be on their foreheads." There is only One Throne, One God, who is both God and the Lamb. He is not two or three separate/distinct 'persons'. God is invisible Spirit, visible in the Person of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus come out from the Father

Finally, we should address the fact that the Holy Spirit comes out (proceeds) from the Father (John 14:26; 15:26); likewise, Jesus comes out (proceeds) from the Father (John 6:46; 8:42; 16:28). Okay. Let me give you a picture of what this means. Imagine God is water (symbolic of the Holy Spirit). Imagine Christ Jesus is the picher to hold the water. When the water is poured into the picher, it can be poured from the picher into the sanctified (holy) serving glasses (believers).

A perfect example of this is found both in John 20:22 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" and Acts 2:17 ( ref: Joel 2:28) "And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh".

This is how God made it clear to me, and I hope it helps open your mind to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:45). God bless you from His heart to mine to yours.

Isa 9:6/John 14:9; Rom 1:3; 2 Cor 3:17...Listen....Listen...

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43 comments

Deborah Demander profile image

Deborah Demander 5 years ago from First Wyoming, then THE WORLD

Very well written hub, I like all the research you put into it. And I especially like the song you included. It's one of my favorites.

Namaste.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, Deborah Demander ~ I appreciate the kind words. Yes, it took a lot of study to finally address the many 'pillars' of the 'Trinity' doctrine. So many say it's confusing to explain it, and that should be a sign right there. God is not the Author of confusion. I embrace God as all sufficient; He is One God and is everything to us. This song captures His essence, His Person and His relationship to us so beautifully.

Namaste to you, also!


Jisblessed profile image

Jisblessed 5 years ago

I enjoyed this teaching as well. I can say I understood it and agree with what I understood. But I would need to study this more closely. Awesome revelation God has given you. And sometimes others can't come to understand until they have been elavated to that level which I believe comes when we seek out God in the way you have. Great job and great blessing you've received and giving.


Ms Dee profile image

Ms Dee 5 years ago from Texas, USA

What a great job bringing together the concepts and points made throughout Scripture into what we can see it tells us about the trinity doctrine! Awesome! Something more even 'clicked' for me when you referenced Rev 21:7. Christ, God in human form, is restoring the place humankind lost so we can return to that place as the invisible God's own sons/children. Christ went to prepare this place for us, re-establish the position humankind lost in the Fall, so He can then return and receive us into that very position he re-established for us, putting us also in that position/place...so the position where He is now we will also be put into...as His sons/children. Then God's restoration will be done--the restoration of our inheritance as His sons/children. This really fleshes out the meaning of Christ being the firstborn of many breatheran. Rom 8:29, Col 1:15. Thanks for bringing all these verses together for a revealing look!!


Jachda profile image

Jachda 5 years ago from Evansville, Indiana

Another awesome hub! Voted up, useful, and awesome. I really appreciate the thought that you put into your writings. Great job. God Bless.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yes, Jisblessed ~ keep ON studying and pondering the things of the LORD, for His Spirit the THE TEACHER that guides us into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13). Carnal minds CANNOT understand the things of God. It is impossible. You must be born again of the Spirit (John 3:6), which is also called being born of God (1 John 5:4). We are being transformed by the renewing of our mind (Rom 12:2) and conformed into the image of His Son [huios] (Rom 8:29; Phil 3:21; Rev 21:7); amen! God bless YOU!!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Beautiful, sister Dee! See how the Holy Spirit just puts things together so beautifully? Jesus Christ became the 'second Adam' (1 Cor 15:45), in our place, to meet all the requirements of the holiness of God (Heb 7:28; 10:14), to renew (Col 3:10) us back into the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9), also known as the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).

I am glad you read my hub "In My Father's House Are Many Mansions", for the Father's House is the Temple, and that Temple is the body of Christ (John 2:21), which is now we, the Church (Rom 12:5). We enter the kingdom of God by faith (Old and New Testaments), as we are a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6; 1 Pet 2:9). He brought it all together in Heb 9:26 "but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

We know that we will be with Him in Paradise upon physical death (Luke 23:43), and the Tree of Life is there (Rev 2:7). Paradise is in the third heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4), and the Tree of Life is IN the New Jerusalem, the holy city (Rev 2:19). John saw the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven to the New Earth (Rev 21:10). I'm thinking the New Earth must be there, too and may already be manifest. Paradise was once on this earth, and based on the biblical description, is now under water (the Persian Gulf).

Jesus is truly the image (tsalem/eikon) and form (morphe) of the invisible God (Col 1:15; Phil 2:6). When Adam and Eve 'heard the sound (ko·vl - sound, voice) of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day' (Gen 3:8), He was the Word walking among them, just as it will be forevermore.

As the geniology of man traces back to the first Adam, made in the image of God, with the breath of God breathed into his nostrils (Gen 1:27; 2:7), so shall be the chronology of man to come: "son of Adam, son of God" (Luke 3:38). Hallelujah! Lots of incredible truth!! God bless you, dear sister!!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Bless your heart, Jachda! Thank you ~ we do not labor in vain, and I keep that promise close to my heart as I muster the courgage to press on in His message to His own. I am blessed to have you as a fellow servant in His mission. God bless you!!


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Judah's Daughter: KJV. GENESIS: 1: 26; "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" The words "US and OUR" indicates more than one person present during creation.

JOHN: 10:30 "I and the Father are one." JOHN: 10:38 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." These verses express to me that Jesus is God.

JOHN: 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him and have seen him." Here I believe Jesus is saying that you have seen and know me, therefore you have seen and know the Father too.

JOHN: 14: 10-11 also express the fact that The Father and Jesus are one and the same. The Father is spirit and cannot be see by human eyes, but Jesus is in the flesh and is God therefore they are looking at God.

I may be wrong in the way I am understanding these verses I have brought to your attention, but I feel right about what I am expressing that Jesus is God personified in the flesh which only God can cause to be as God is spirit.


VOICE CIW profile image

VOICE CIW 5 years ago

Judah's Daughter, I read part 2, but I still believe in the Holy Trinity. The Bible says try every spirit and see if it is of God. I am saying that is how you feel and believe, but what if you are wrong? You have people reading this hub and may change how they feel about the Bible and come to believe how you believe, and if you are wrong their blood will be on your hands. I love you in the Lord.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother VOICE CIW ~ yes, you KNOW I revere and fear the LORD. I know that teachers are held more accountable, as James 3:1 states. There is far too much evidence in the Bible to reveal that Jesus is God and that God is not more than one 'person' to accept any confusion in understanding the first commandment. I hope you DO read Part 1, for you may see more than you've ever realized, as to the root of the 'Trinity' doctrine and the provable alterations to the Bible through the Catholic-originated Textus Receptus.

Speaking of 'changing' beliefs, the God of Creation was always One God BEFORE the Catholic Church 'changed' His person into 'persons'. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; not the God of the Pope. He knows my heart; He knows your heart. We love Him, no doubt. He has revealed Himself as ONE LORD GOD to me, and I have no peace believing in the 'Trinity' anymore. I embrace all that He is, for He is "I AM". I hope you will listen to the video ~ it's so awesome!


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 5 years ago from among the Ekklesia

Hi Judah's Daughter,

I am going to entertain you with a few questions in hopes of stimulate a different approach to the differences of belief in the comments of your hub.

Does 1+1 = 1?

Does one God + 1 God = 1 God?

Does 1/3 of a God + 1/3 of a God + 1/3 of a God = 1 whole God?

Can 3A = B, or three persons = 1 being?

Is your foot really you, or is it *OF* you?

If Jesus was conceived *BY* the Holy Spirit, would He not be the Son *OF* the Holy Ghost, instead of the Son *OF* the Father?

Can someone be conceived *BY* one person and then when born, be the son *OF* another person?

In the Bible it says Jesus Christ was conceived *BY* the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit *OF* God, then could it be said that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit *OF* God the Father?

Could it also be said that it is God the Father who is the Father *OF* Jesus, not the Holy Spirit?

Lastly, is there a difference between something *OF* God and something *BY* God?

Could it be correct in saying that Jesus Christ was conceived *BY* God the Father *OF* the Holy Spirit?

or.....

Jesus Christ was conceived *BY* the Holy Spirit *OF* God the Father?

Lastly, is God the Father *OF* Jesus Christ, or is it the Holy Spirit who is the Father?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Excellent, PlanksandNails. Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost, meaning the Holy Ghost is the Father. The Father took on human flesh through Mary. It's as simple as that. God manifested Himself in seven ways in scripture, so why limit Him to three? The 'x' sign is used in place of 'of', in math, is it not? Truly the math is 1x1x1x1x1x1x1 = 1 God.

But, this may give readers who hold to the 'Trinity' doctrine some things to deeply think about, just as you, I and millions of other Christians, who hold to the first commandment, have done. Thank you and God bless you!!


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 5 years ago from Wales, UK

Another good one JD.

I hadn't thought about the 'son' in 1 Cor 15:24-28 as referring to us before. I shall have to think about that.

Voice CIW appears to be of the belief that the Trinity us so fundamental a doctrine that one cannot be a true believed without it. This view pervades the church and is rather sad.

In forumland when the validity of the bible is questioned, many respond with a common statement that God couldn't possibly permit His word to come to us altered and therefore what we have is the word of God. Clearly God has not prevented the translations being fiddled with. Very few in the church read interlinear bibles and much less read Greek or Hebrew so in practice the word as preached has changed.

I keep having this recurring thought that it won't be until all erroneous pagan doctrines brought to us by the Catholic Church are purged (not forgetting that the reformation and Protestant off shoots failed to clear it all out) and the Church follows the teaching of the primitive church only, that we will see God move in power as in the 1st century. Time to get rid of the hot cross buns then.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Edited comment to Brother Dave Matthews:

Hi brother Dave, Regarding "Us", "Our" and "We", this is covered in my first hub. It will give you some insight as to the interpretation of the five passages containing such verbiage. Yes, Jesus is God. When Jesus said He and the Father are 'One', the Jews, knowing the first Commandment, took up stones because He was claiming to be God Himself (John 10:30-33). They knew God appeared in human form to Abraham and Jacob...they UNDERSTOOD what Jesus was saying. I hope we do, too! God bless you!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Disappearinghead, I meant to give you the link to my hub on 1 Corinthians 15:28 (Jesus' subjection to the Father), and I have placed the link at the base of this hub. God bless you always!


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jreuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Judah's Daughter,

With all respect, there is an obvious pattern that arises when heretical beliefs are presented as biblical, and this hub is no exception to the rule. In nearly all instances of the numerous attempts at compromising scripture, the most obvious, surface level meanings behind the statements of both Jesus and of the writers of the N.T. are consistently reinterpreted and subjected to poor exegesis. One should be more than a little suspicious when passage after passage in your hub requires a running commentary from you explaining what Christ and the authors REALLY meant. Rather than allowing the text to speak for itself, you've presented your readers with a Bible that appears extremely confusing, misleading, and ambiguous. When constant and consistent explanation is required, eyebrows should be raised.

To address just one of your many claims: It takes more than a little hubris to assert that today's Christian scholars, men and women who've spent decades in the study of koine Greek, are mistranslating the Greek in John 1:1-2. "Pros" in this instance most certainly does mean "with," and denotes being "face to face," "having communion with someone," or "a relationship with someone." A very specific translation of this phrase would give us something like, "The Word was face to face with God." It may be interesting for your readers to realize that both Muslims and Jehovah's witnesses take issue with these same verses, and perform their own unique feats of textual gymnastics to make the scripture read how they WANT it to read- feats which result in vastly different conclusions than your own.

And I guess that's really my main point: You are not basing your theology on the clear and consistent message of Scripture, rather you are reinventing and reinterpreting scripture to fit with your theology. The idea of Christ being no more than a representation of the Father is nothing new, it is a heretical belief known as Sabellianism which the church has both addressed, and defeated, hundreds of years ago (I am fairly certain this is your conclusion, my apologies if it is not). The Trinity is not based upon pagan flirtations by the Catholic church, and you will find no substantial or compelling evidence to support such a claim. It is based fully upon the testimony of scripture, a testimony that, while challenged, nevertheless remains strong.

Now, obviously I've no desire to label you a heretic and pass eternal judgement on you, but I am moved to state in no uncertain terms that the beliefs espoused in this hub are unorthodox, unscriptural, and incorrect. I am more than a little shocked to read of your desire to spread the "gospel," and then witness your quite blatant straying from it. At the very core of orthodox Christian belief is the Trinity, and when one moves outside of this, the label "Christian" is effectively relinquished.

The consistent testimony of Christ being distinct from the Father is like a beating drum throughout the New Testament, and to reduce the distinct personhood of Jesus Christ requires a wholly unreasonable approach to Scripture. It is nearly mind-boggling to me that anyone can read even one of the synoptics and come away with the conclusion that Christ was not distinct from the Father. I see no compelling arguments in these hubs, rather reinterpretations, mistranslations, and less than persuasive explanations for the innumerable references to the concept of the Trinity. There is a very good reason why modalism was so handily defeated nearly 18 centuries ago, as it simply has no ground to stand upon.

I do hope you'll forgive what may appear to be a stern tone in this comment, but this is a subject near to my heart, and I believe that correct theology is at stake. I would strongly encourage you to continue your studies by reading "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. My best wishes to you, and I pray for God's blessings in your life.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi jreuter, I appreciate your comment; however, I pray the Lord’s revelation be made clear to you in your walk with Him. I hope you will read my first hub as well. My commentary is what this ‘hub’ is. My statements are a summary explanation; however, the links provided within and at the base of each hub give a greater study for those interested.

I don’t have a problem with the term ‘Trinity’, IF one believes the Father is the Holy Spirit, who manifested Himself in the Son and is today the Spirit that dwells in us. To deduct that the Father is not the Holy Spirit, who is not the Son, who is not the Spirit in us is polytheism. There is far too much in the Word to prove Jesus (Yeshua) is Almighty God [El - singular] and there is only One God; here are just a few the latter-type of Trinitarian must contend with:

Isaiah 9:6 “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD [El], ETERNAL FATHER, Prince of Peace.”

John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

John 14:7-9 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on YOU KNOW HIM, and have SEEN HIM.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER; HOW can you say, 'Show us the Father '?”

Acts 20:28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD which He purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.”

1 Tim 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

Compare these two:

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is NO GOD BESIDES ME.”

We cannot split the King of Israel and ‘his’ Redeemer into two, for Jesus is both King and Redeemer of Israel. Therefore, this would biblically be interpreted “the King of Israel and Israel’s Redeemer”, for ‘his’ is not capitalized. What did the LORD, the LORD of hosts say again? ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is NO GOD BESIDES ME.”

Rev 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”


exjwlaurie 5 years ago

This is another hub of TRUTH--Sister JD!

God reveals Himself, not to the intellectual, wise ones of this earth. He has revealed Himself to those whom He has called, His born again believers. And they receive their KNOWING of Him by revelation. This was surely evident in the case of Paul!

The JW's are a perfect example of how Satan can deceive good people into following after "Doctrine", and the "Creeds" of man. TRUTH comes from God. Jesus IS TRUTH, he is God's WORD, His Wisdom, His Strength, His Might, The Alpha and the Omega, The Righteousness of God, The First and the Last. He is ALL that God is--and he died for us! To save us, and restore us and reveal himself to us and TEACH us...if we let him!

"As for you, the anointing you have received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:27

This anointing is God Spirit upon His born again believers, guiding us into the TRUTH we SEEK. If we do not ever question or doubt a doctrine of man, the Spirit will not force TRUTH upon us. It is only through our relinquishing of our own self, and our self-righteousness that we can truly, humbly seek after God, to KNOW Him! Then we are shown such amazing TRUTH!

Thank you for sharing the TRUTH that God has gifted to you my Sister!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Bless your HEART, sister Laurie! You know, when I attempt to express the revelation of the Word to others, I have been accused of 'splitting hairs'. The Word answers in Heb 4:12, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Praise God!

I received an email from a missionary that was soooo encouraging, in that they too have the revelation of God as ONE Person in the LORD Jesus Christ. He said they were so blessed to see someone speak out about the error of the Trinity that is not a Jehovah's Witness!! What you have learned by His Spirit because He called you out, is that the LORD Jesus is God and Savior ~ something they totally miss! Trinitarians miss it, too, for they accept Him as the eternal Son, subordinate yet 'equal' to God, but not God Himself. The LORD God clearly said, "There is NO SAVIOR besides Me." (Isa 43:11; 45:21; Hos 13:4). Jesus quoted His own words in Isa 44:6 in Rev 1:17-18, as stated above to jreuter. How much clearer can He be?

The creeds of man include what the councils named 'the Apostles' Creed', and isn't it interesting that the words 'holy Catholic church' are right in there, too? Even that is explained away by their branches...Protestantism that still hold to the 'Trinity' doctrine.

I love all the expressions of what the Bible describes as the attributes of God, our ONE and ONLY Sovereign King and LORD! Look at what is written of Jesus in 1 Tim 6:15: "which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and ONLY Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords" and Jude 1:4 "...and deny our ONLY Master [NIV uses 'Sovereign'] and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jesus is both the ONLY Sovereign Lord and is the ONLY Master. He said we cannot serve two Masters (Mat 6:24) and there are only two, One being God. We don't have three Lords or three Masters in a 'Trinity'!!

1 Cor 2:14 states, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." Truly, there are plenty who "have the form of godliness, but deny its power [the Holy Spirit]" (2 Tim 3:5) Who is the Power and Wisdom of God? Jesus Christ!! (1 Cor 1:24). The Holy Spirit (God in Christ in us) is the POWER that the disciples received on the Day of Pentecost! (Acts 1:8).

Jesus said He is the Truth (John 14:6), yet it is the Spirit of God that guides us into all Truth (John 16:13). The LORD is that Spirit! 2 Cor 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." Oh, that the Lord Jesus may open the understanding of those who truly want to know Him. (Luke 24:45). I can't do it; you can't do it; only He can do it ~ Amen. You are a blessing, sister Laurie and I love you dearly!!


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jreuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

J.D., the scripture quoted by yourself, and by those espousing heretical doctrines in general, do nothing to refute Christ's distinct personhood, rather they merely establish his divinity and unity with the Father. As much as you are in the habit of twisting scripture, there are verses, as Hiram Diaz has stated, that are "twist-proof." One such is John 8:17-18:

"In your Law it is written the testimony of two people is true. I am the One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness about Me."

As Mr. Diaz says: "It is the testimony of two people that is true, not the testimony of One Person in two different modes! Since Christ is claiming that His testimony along with the Father’s testimony makes what He is saying true, there is absolutely no way that the Oneness proponent/Sabellian can claim that Christ and the Father are the same Person. If Christ and the Father are not distinct Persons then (i.)Christ is not keeping the Law, (ii.)He is lying about His keeping of the Law, and (iii.)His testimony about Himself is invalid. In other words, the Oneness proponent can either bow the knee to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, recognizing that these Three distinct Persons are eternally One God undivided in essence – or they can nullify the Law or, worse yet, turn Christ into a liar.

If Oneness Pentecostals want to accept Christ’s testimony about Himself, then they are legally required to acknowledge that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons. The Son is not another mode of the Father; the Son is eternally distinct from the Father and the Spirit; yet these Three are One God."

I'm amazed at the continuing deception that occurs within the extreme borders of the Christian faith, and astounded that such ideas are propounded as "Christian." Trinitarian doctrine is repeatedly supported and fully established throughout the New Testament, and I am sincerely dumbfounded how anyone can fail to see it.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

jreuter, Forgive my delayed response. I moved and had no internet connection for a week.

You call the first commandment heretical? I say this because, for more than 4,000 years NO ONE EVER taught that God was more than one person. “I AM the LORD your God” and “I AM that I AM” is very singular. Whenever God spoke directly to His people, He never used plural personal pronouns. The only time God was ‘unified’ in two forms was when He was both Spirit and flesh, whether Old Testament imperishable flesh or New Testament perishable flesh. This answers John 8:17-18. No twisting.

You stated, “If Christ and the Father are not distinct Persons then (i.)Christ is not keeping the Law, (ii.)He is lying about His keeping of the Law, and (iii.)His testimony about Himself is invalid. In other words, the Oneness proponent can either bow the knee to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, recognizing that these Three distinct Persons are eternally One God undivided in essence – or they can nullify the Law or, worse yet, turn Christ into a liar.”

You’ll have to explain this one to me. The first commandment of the LAW is that God is ONE. When Jesus told the Jews that He and the Father are ONE, they knew He was claiming to be God Himself. Look at what John 10:30-33 records of this statement and the Jews’ reaction, capture in verse 33: “We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Why is it Jesus did NOT commit blasphemy by claiming to be God, but the Antichrist does?

I am not a ‘Oneness Pentecostal’, but I am a Spirit-baptized, Oneness believer. I am not a proponent of their ‘holiness’ movement, requirement of water baptism and the gift of tongues to be saved. You stated, Oneness believers “do nothing to refute Christ's distinct personhood”. Christ Jesus was distinct from the Father, as flesh and Spirit are distinctly separate. One perishes; the other does not. We are made in His image. I challenge you to PROVE the ‘eternal Son’ and ‘eternal three-person’ Godhead to me and anyone else. I was raised with this teaching, but the Bible contradicts it. You asked if Jesus lied? Absolutely not. He is the Word (the Word was God) made flesh and we have the Word in writing ~ the Word testifies to the truth that there is only One God and Jesus is God.

One cannot understand the New Testament without the Old Testament. Too many ‘Christians’ focus on the NT and their understanding is limited because of it. I suggest you look up the history of Oneness doctrine to realize it dates back to Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35 or 50-115) – disciple of the Apostles, Polycarp of Smyrna (AD 69-155) – disciple of the Apostle John, Noetus of Smyrna (AD 130), Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 135-200), Praxeas (AD 150-220) and Sabellius (AD 180). Then along comes Tertullian (AD 200) “A Trinitarian”, a converted Catholic priest ~ covered in my first hub on this subject.

I look forward to your upcoming hub (if you will) to convince Oneness believers that God is not one Person, but three distinct persons. If you’re going to refute Oneness, then do so with the labor necessary to merit such refutation.


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Abrushing1968 5 years ago from USA- Florida

JD:

Jreuter Said" One should be more than a little suspicious when passage after passage in your hub requires a running commentary from you explaining what Christ and the authors REALLY meant. Rather than allowing the text to speak for itself, you've presented your readers with a Bible that appears extremely confusing, misleading, and ambiguous. When constant and consistent explanation is required, eyebrows should be raised."

I hate say I told you so, But, I did, I told you so. LOL! I do most assuredly agree with Mr. jreuters. You use an awful lot of rubbing oil dear sister. You are massaging scripture to fit your lens.

I seems to me that you undermining people's confidence in the Word by suggesting that it has been incorrectly translating, or tampered with. If your premise is correct, then we can not, in confidence, declare any bible other then Greek and Hebrew to be the Word of God. I need to know that the Bible is the Word of God As is.

Even so sense you like the original Hebrew, Let's see how you massage this truth away:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! Deuteronomy 6:4

this statement of oneness actually implies plurality. Let me explain.

The word "one". In this verse "one" is translated from the Hebrew word "echad" which demonstrates compound unity of oneness or corporate oneness. It gives us a picture of a group acting as one. Let me give you a few specific examples in scripture where the word echad was used to express unity or oneness.

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one [echad] flesh. Genesis 2:24

Now the whole earth used the same [echad] language and the same [echad] words. Genesis 11:1

And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one [echad] people, and they all have the same [echad] language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. Genesis 11:6

Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one [echad] voice, and said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!" Exodus 24:3

How would the Hebrew be different if God had wanted to express absolute oneness? The Hebrew word, yachid, is used to express the idea of absolute oneness. Examples of it are shown below:

And He said, "Take now your son, your only [yachid] son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." Genesis 22:2

When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing. Now she was his one and only [yachid] child; besides her he had neither son nor daughter. Judges 11:34

When I was a son to my father, Tender and the only [yachid] son in the sight of my mother, Proverbs 4:3

daughter of my people, put on sackcloth And roll in ashes; Mourn as for an only [yachid] son, A lamentation most bitter. For suddenly the destroyer Will come upon us. Jeremiah 6:26

"Then I shall turn your festivals into mourning And all your songs into lamentation; And I will bring sackcloth on everyone's loins And baldness on every head. And I will make it like a time of mourning for an only [yachid] son, And the end of it will be like a bitter day. Amos 8:10

Ok, my point is this, the word "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is actually telling us that God is "as one" [echad] not an "absolute one" [yachid]. Please note that neither I, nor the translators of the King James Bible, have tampered with this scripture. This can be confirmed in the Torah or the Hebrew Bible. To the Jews, it is known as the "Shema Yisreal"

Now lets brake the verse down a little further, by looking at the word "God"

The word God is translated from the plural Hebrew word Elohim. When used in this context, we know we are not talking about you, me, or angels. It is clearly referring to God. It telling us that God is plural. We you use in conjunction with the word Echad these words are both communicating the same information. God is One yet plural.

Moses is actually declaring God's plurality, as oneness. In a sense, He is saying "Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, they are one God!" We can, with out error, take this verse to mean there is only one God. for there is not three separate God's. But by using imagery that suggests plurality he is making sure we understand that He is also three persons.

This reality is seen in several places through out the Old Testament Through verses that are written in such a way to give you a mental image of plural oneness.

Exodus 34: 5-6 (NKJV)

Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,

Isaiah 44:6 (NKJV)

“ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Genesis 1:26(NKJV)

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

To suggest that God is speaking to angels here, is to suggest that Angels participated in our creation. That we are made in their likeness as well as God's. This is error makes god's of angels and diminishes Christ's Glory by subscribing to Angels that which rightly belongs to Him.

Ephesians 3:8-19 NKJ

9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

The realization that Jesus is included in the Godhead is part of the mystery that Paul was preaching. The term "fellowship of the mystery, is referring to fellowship of the triune God which from the beginning of the ages had been hidden in God. The idea God created all things through Jesus Christ was a mind blowing realization. That Jesus was actually a part of the Godhead.

Paul was so amazed by this that in verse 14 he says" For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," He makes a distinction between God and Jesus although he clearly saw them both as one God. The plurality of God had been revealed to Paul with clarity.

This revelation was hidden in God and revealed through Christ. Paul saw this, The Early Church fathers saw this, Jreuters is able to see this, VoiceCIW is able to see this, and I can see this. It is a pity that your lens keeps you blind to this truth. For you are unable to envelope the greater body of truth that declares the majesty and Glory that is the triune God.

In Christ

ABR


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ABR, I’m glad comment space allows for length, when needed. I am choosing to see the positive when you use the word ‘oil’ in describing my answers. ‘Oil’ represent anointing and I praise God for His oil.

I am encouraged that you see my point: "If your premise is correct, then we can not, in confidence, declare any bible other then Greek and Hebrew to be the Word of God." If you "need to know that the Bible is the Word of God As is", I am concerned for you. Errors in translation and interpretation are the catalyst for the devil's division of God's beloved. There are admonishments in the Word to 'STUDY' to show thyself approved, amen (2 Tim 2:15)? Reading various translations and accepting whatever we understand it to mean is somewhat risky, don't you think?

Now, let’s focus on ‘echad’ and ‘yachid’:

Quoted from this link: http://www.answering-christianity.com/echad.htm

“Genesis 2:21 And LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one (echad) of his ribs.”

How many ribs? Maybe God took a single rack of ribs (As you would receive a rack of barbecue ribs in a restaurant).

Genesis 22:2 “And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one (echad) of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”

How many mountains did Abraham go to?

Exodus 25:19 “And make one (echad) cherub on the one (different word) end and the other cherub on the other end.”

How many cherubs on one side?

Leviticus 16:5 “And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for sin offering, and one (echad) ram for a burnt offering.”

How many rams? Maybe God meant a "whole herd"? He said one; Trinitarians claim that one is supposed to mean a group.

Numbers 10:4 “And if they blow but with one (echad) trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.”

Were they supposed to blow with an orchestra of trumpets in unison?

Of the 943 times (by my count) echad is translated "one," it is translated to indicate a single character 901 times. In the remaining instances when it is involved in describing a group effort, it still means one.”

Based on this article: http://halfshekel.com/echad/index.html

“The word "echad" appears in the Law of Moses 387 times (including Deuteronomy 6:4 itself). Excluding Deuteronomy 6:4, the word was used to indicate a numeric value, or, a quantity 359 times, or 93 percent (93%) of the time (numeric pronouns were included in this total). The word "echad" was used to indicate a unification of several nouns on only 3 occasions, that is, eight tenths of one percent (0.8%) of the time. The remaining instances indicated an ordinal position within a sequence of objects or occurrences (i.e., first, second, third, etc.) 24 times, or 6.2% of the time.”

While you are adamant to defend your ‘lens’ of God in three persons (which, by the way, states that the Father is not the Son, and neither of ‘them’ is the Holy Spirit), consider our One (echad) LORD God manifested Himself in seven ways throughout the Bible: immortal flesh to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14), the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4), clouds and fire (Num 14:14), the human body of the Son and even the dove that descended at His baptism. Why settle for three? Did you know that the word used for ‘form’ of God in Phil 2:6-7 is ‘morphe’, while the ‘form‘ of a bond-servant is ‘schema’? Interesting how the resurrected Christ appeared in ‘another’ form [morphe] in Mark 16:12. What happened to His resurrected body?

Consider Isa 44:6 states, “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” Compare this to Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:”

There are way too many scriptures to quote to you, but let me leave you with this one: Isa 44:24-25 “Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth (WHO IS WITH ME?); Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness”.

No ‘church’ influenced my understanding of who God is. Your personal email to me stated, “We can't judge truth by the number of followers. But rather by its ability to embrace all truth. If the majority has bought into the lie then you may very well be the one standing alone.” I praise God I am not alone, and while the majority of this latter-day ‘church’ continues to get heated about this issue, I have more peace in knowing Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that we would be just as foolish as Philip to ask Jesus to ‘show us the Father’ (John 14:7-8) in the next life, than to know when we see Jesus we will see the face of God and LIVE. Amen.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ABR,

I re-read your comment, to be sure I adequately answered you. I’d like to further address your examples of ‘echad’ and ‘yachid’:

Gen 2:24 “the SAME [echad] language”

Gen 11:1 “they all have the SAME [echad] language”

Now, let’s look at the words of Jesus to His disciples in John 14:16 “he shall give you another Comforter”. The word ‘another’ is the Greek word ‘allon’ meaning ‘more of the SAME’. The Greek word used for ‘another’, meaning ‘different’ is that used in Mark 16:12 when Jesus appeared in ‘another’ [etera] form. I certainly see a consistency with ‘the SAME’ and ‘echad’.

In Gen 22:2 the word ‘yachid’ indicates uniqueness, in that we know Abraham had more than one son. Isaac was his ‘unique’ son, chosen for the test of sacrifice. So, while we see reference to an “only [yachid] son” in this passage, Judges 11:34, Prov 4:3, Jer 6:26 and Amos 8:10, we must consider every case of the use of the word. The “Shema Ysrael” never split God into three persons. Moses indeed did NOT say “THEY are one God!"

Regarding “Let Us make man in Our image”, I invite you to read my hub by that title. Elohim indeed includes the LORD God, angels, magistrates and born-again mankind (Isa 41:23; John 10:34). Just as there is a system of governance in the spiritual world, so there is in the physical. Gen 1:26 goes on to say, “Let them rule”. When God made man in His image, the word ‘image’ is singular, not plural.

And lastly, if you want to look at the words of the Apostle Paul in Eph 3:14, consider the confessions by more of the [original] Apostles as to the identity of the LORD Jesus Christ: John 20:28 (Thomas); 1 Tim 2:3; Titus 2:13; 3:4; 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 1:25. How many more witnesses do you need?


Abrushing1968 profile image

Abrushing1968 5 years ago from USA- Florida

JD:

WOW! What can I say? Lets take these one at a time shall we?

You said:

" I am choosing to see the positive when you use the word ‘oil’ in describing my answers. ‘Oil’ represent anointing and I praise God for His oil."

First, let me be clear. I was not referring to the oil of the anointing. I was referring to massaging or rubbing oil. You have done to my words what you do to God's Word. You change its intended meaning to suite your personal lens. You rub, massage, and manipulate scripture into your own image.

Your said "There are admonishments in the Word to 'STUDY' to show thyself approved, amen (2 Tim 2:15)? Reading various translations and accepting whatever we understand it to mean is somewhat risky, don't you think?"

I do indeed think reading various translations and accepting whatever we understand it to mean is risky. (2 Peter 1:20) Indeed we need to be sure our understanding is based on God's lens not our lens.

Reading and interpreting various verses with a personal bias is equally risky, don't you think,? We are to conform to God's word. Not God's word to us. It is my opinion that you make God's Word conform to your personal understanding. That you are unwilling to take God's Word a face value. The KJV, NKJV, Holman Christian Standard, and the Amplified Bibles are examples of acceptable translations of God's Word. When I read them I can take them at face value. Digging into the Greek and Hebrew are often helpful and open up a broader meaning, but this can also be dangerous. Look what the JW's did with John 1:1. My point is that you do not have to speak Greek and Hebrew to understand the bible.

As for the Echad. Lets take a look at how Strong's defines it:

H259

???

'echa?d pronounced ekh-awd'

A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

From this we see that indeed the word can be used to communicate a singular one, and it also can be used to communicate a triune oneness. It is interchangeable. Which is why it was the perfect word for Deuteronomy 6:4 for God is indeed Echad in every sense of the word.

I have know problem with your examples showing how echad can be used in a singular form. It' true, I have no reason to dispute it. However, you have not dis-proven my understanding of Deut 6:4. You have simply shown more light on the word echad.

There is no denying that echad is a plural noun. When used in conjunction with Elohim, which also can communicate a plural thought, I can, without contradiction say, that in every sense of the word, God is echad.

This is an example that illustrates how my lens allows me to envelope all truth while your lens requires you to reject truth. Once again, you have been isolated from the greater body of truth.

You Said:

"While you are adamant to defend your ‘lens’ of God in three persons (which, by the way, states that the Father is not the Son, and neither of ‘them’ is the Holy Spirit),"

I am not sure what you mean here. It is my belief that all three make up one God. and are made known to us in three different persons. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; The Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

You said:

"consider our One (echad) LORD God manifested Himself in seven ways throughout the Bible: immortal flesh to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14), the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4), clouds and fire (Num 14:14), the human body of the Son and even the dove that descended at His baptism. Why settle for three?

We can agree that God is the Great "I am". That means He can be what ever, who ever, when and were ever he wants to be. But He has specifically given us in his word three persons in which we can recognize and have fellowship him through on a daily basis. He has not commanded that I obey His Cloud, He has not given his fire as atonement for my sin, Nor can I wrestle with him in human form to gain favor in His eyes. He has given me Himself, His Son and His Spirit to be my God.

You said"

Did you know that the word used for ‘form’ of God in Phil 2:6-7 is ‘morphe’, while the ‘form‘ of a bond-servant is ‘schema’? Interesting how the resurrected Christ appeared in ‘another’ form [morphe] in Mark.

I see no significance here. Indeed Jesus changed his Form from spirit to flesh. What other word would they have used?

You said"

Interesting how the resurrected Christ appeared in ‘another’ form [morphe] in Mark 16:12. What happened to His resurrected body?"

We know he had a new body that retained his scares. We also now that this new body had the ability simply appear and disappear. Clearly it was a supernatural body. So why wouldn't he be able to change his appearance at will. OK, No problem. This too is an example that illustrates how my lens allows me to envelope all truth.

You said:

"Consider Isa 44:6 states, “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” Compare this to Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:”

I completely agree, Jesus is God the Son. There is only one God. Not three separate god's

You said:

"I will leave you with this one Isa 44:24-25 “Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth (WHO IS WITH ME?); Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness”.

No conflict here either. There is only one(echad)God.

You said"

"I have more peace in knowing Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that we would be just as foolish as Philip to ask Jesus to ‘show us the Father’ (John 14:7-8) in the next life, than to know when we see Jesus we will see the face of God and LIVE. Amen.

I do most earnestly agree. You can not see the father with out seeing the Son or the Holy Spirit, for they are one (Echad)

Truth envelopes all truth. Truth exposes lies and isolates it from the greater body of truth. Again you unable to envelope the greater body of truth that declares the majesty and Glory that is the triune God.

In Christ

ABR


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ABR, you've not given anything substantially supportive to dispute what I have written. I am hurt a bit that you feel I am manipulating God's Word, if that's what you mean by my 'massaging oil'. Oftentimes, the evidence would prove my accuser should be accused of the same, but I won't do so. I think you are electing to understand the scripture through your preferred 'lens'.

I can answer a Jehovah's Witness on John 1:1. All you have to do is look at the Greek word used for THE (which can mean 'a', but is used and translated consistently as THE) in this verse. "In THE [ho] beginning was THE [ho] Word and THE [ho] Word was with [pros = to] God [theon = object] and THE [ho] Word was [ho = THE] God."

You said, "The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; The Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." This is not a scripture passage, so you will have to prove this scripturally. I can prove to you scripturally that the Father IS the Holy Spirit and that same Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.

What I do know is this: If what I am testifying is of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, and you are His, He will continue to confirm His truth to you. Traditional 'Trinitarian' theology is that the Father is not the Son, and neither of ‘them’ is the Holy Spirit, yet all are God. You can see the diagram of this in my first hub, "Should You Believe in the Trinity? 1 of 2". This points directly to tri-theism, aka polytheism.

You stated, "You can not see the father with out seeing the Son or the Holy Spirit, for they are one (Echad)". How do you see the Father, who is the Holy Spirit, when He is invisible? Through His image, who is Christ Jesus the LORD. Again, the Bible doesn't say, "They are One". If Echad is both singular and plural, I recommend you consider ALL the usages of the word and not use it to split THE God into THREE separate persons. He is ONE PERSON. He is ONE GOD. "I, I AM, HE, MY," etc. are all personal pronouns used of God all throughout scripture. The plurals of "Us, Our and We" are used five times in scripture and certainly are explainable. God does not change. If He were a "We" He would have continually spoke in plurals.

So, I appreciate the discussion. I really do. May God have all the glory. Amen.


Abrushing1968 profile image

Abrushing1968 5 years ago from USA- Florida

I too have enjoyed this discussion. Thank you for being a willing participant. For the record, I was not attempting prove you wrong, It is my desire to point out that you are subscribing to only part of the majesty that is God. Your perspective is blind to the bigger picture. It is isolating you from the greater body of truth. Which I have illustrated multiple times from Scripture here and in other comments and letters.

Go well my dear sister.

ABR


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

You are dear to me as well, brother ABR. I respect heart-felt communication, and this is what we've engaged in. I don't see that I am subscribing to 'part of the majesty that is God'. I know One God and worship One God in Spirit and Truth. He created all things and is:

El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)

El Elyon (The Most High God)

Adonai (Lord, Master)

Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)

Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)

Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)

Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)

Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)

Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)

Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)

El Olam (The Everlasting God)

Elohim (God)

Qanna (Jealous)

Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)

Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)

Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

He is King of kings, Lord of lords, Abba Father, Yehowshua, my Father, my Husband, my Friend. His Word is eternal; His grace is sufficient; His mercy endures forever. He is righteous and just; His love is greater than any other love. He is HOLY. I could go on and on in worship of my LORD and Savior. He is "I AM" and I am my Beloved's and He is mine. Blessed be the name of the LORD. Amen.


Jon 5 years ago

would like to point out that the Trinity can be found in the very first few verses of God's Word.

Genesis 1:1-3 NASB In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. [3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

God created [1], His Spirit was present as well [2] and when God spoke, He spoke His Word [3]. That would be Jesus. God created through Christ [Col 1:16].

all three were present at Jesus' conception as well as His baptism.

one of the reasons God felt it necessary to tell the Hebrew people that He was one [Deut 6:4] is because they were aware of the Trinity and were tempted to worship each of them as separate gods just like the peoples around them at that time had there many gods.

thanks.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Jon, so if you were invisible spirit and spoke you would be two persons? Are your words a separate person from you? God is the invisible Holy Spirit. God spoke. God's Spirit created all things by speaking them into being. The Spirit of God even created man. Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God [El] has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Now, if you as a speaking, invisible spirit decided to indwell a body (immortal or mortal), does that create a third person separate from you?

So, the Jews knew of the 'Trinity' and were not to worship three gods? The Jews reject the Trinity and worship One God. Now, if they could only understand that Yeshua is not only Messiah, but the LORD, they would know the Truth. Trinitarians created the concept of a threesome and worship all three. That's my point.

Blessings, and Truth enlighten you.


Abrushing1968 profile image

Abrushing1968 5 years ago from USA- Florida

JD:

You said:

"Trinitarians created the concept of a threesome and worship all three. That's my point."

Your point is rejected because it is a misrepresentation of the trinity Doctrine. Trinitarians do not worship three gods. They worship one(Echad)God in the fullness of his majesty.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

ABR, if the Father is not the Son, and neither of ‘them’ is the Holy Spirit, using the number 'three' or the prefix 'Tri' or considering 'them' united means and is clearly stating there is more than ONE God, any way you slice it. I pray you understand that Elohim defines not only His magesty and greatness (note the X in the definition of Elohim) and His ability to be all things and create all things, elohim includes angels, magistrates and all born-again believers that are indeed united under One LORD God. God is not three separate persons. If you say He is, you are a polytheist, not a monotheist. I do love you in the love of the LORD. Amen.


L7 4 years ago

I would also like to reply the post u made last. About calling 'them' one. Would it not be like saying we are composed of mind, body, spirit. Each one is not ths other but they make up one being. They are so separate in fact that one usually has to be brought under submission to another. In the case of an athlete or person with a physically demanding job, the body has to be brought to submission to the mind if the body is weak and ready to give up. In the case of the bornagain believer, it is often the spirit that must bring the mind and body to submit to its will. In other words each part can have not only its own identity but its own will. Each not being the other but yet a part of the whole. I am my body, I am my spirit, and mind. But my body is not my spirit is not mind is not my spirit is not my body.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi L7, you would agree that your soul, spirit, mind, heart and body make up YOU, one person. Our 'person' is weak, as we are but dust. This is one characteristic that is not shared with God, for He is the Almighty and is the Holy One, the Holy Spirit. Even His flesh was without innate sin, as the rest of us ~ those He created and those that fell because of the dust from which we were made. For this reason, by the Holy Spirit living IN us, we are re-created more and more into His own image (Gen 1:27; 2 Cor 3:18); yes, we shall be like Him (1 John 3:2), perfect, for He is perfect (Heb 10:4). This will happen after the resurrection of the body for us. Nonetheless, we shall NEVER be equal with God, but subject to Him for all eternity. All things created will be put under our feet and we will rule by His authority and Lordship, as it was in the beginning, before the fall (Gen 2:26; Ps 8:6-8). God bless you!


L7 4 years ago

It appears that what we disagree on is that. God manifests Himself as several persons at once or as one role at a time. I've heard some Trinitarians wrongly compare the Trinity to water, where its liquid, ice, then vapor. But these cant coexist in each others form. This sounds more like what you believe. Pardon me if I'm incorrect.

You touched on John 17 but I still fail to see that Jesus is praying to His other role. Or why He would say His God has forsaken Him on the cross.

I am glad tho that we can agree that the Father, Son, Spirit are homoousian. To be believe Jesus is not God would truly be heretical. I'm glad I stumbled upon your hubs.

Also what Bible translation do u prefer to use?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I believe God is Spirit, invisible, and manifests Himself in visible forms (I go into these manifestations in my hubs "The Manifestations of God - Old Testament" and "The Manifestations of God - New Testament" = links below) - for instance, YHWH appeared to Abraham as a man in Gen 18, with two of His angels (Gen 19:1), while we can't say God lost His omnipresent power over the universe while appearing as a man to Abraham.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-FORM-o...

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-FORM-o...

Yes, I believe God can manifest Himself in various forms at the same time (i.e. the baptism of Jesus). My answer to those who ask why God in the flesh would pray to God in the Spirit is that as the Son of Man, God made Himself lower than the angels, subject to humanity/mortality and in EVERY way, set the example for mankind as 'the last Adam'. The reason He became mortal is to shed His own holy blood (Acts 20:18), for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. The blood of animals merely 'passed over' the sins of the people from year to year, but did not remit them.

In Isaiah 43:11 and Hos 13:4, YHWH declares "There is no Savior besides Me."

One of my recent hubs may be of blessing to you, L7. It's called "The Almighty": http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-ALMIGH...

Bible translation? Prefereably the NAS, but always compare and look at the original Hebrew and Greek wording as the final authority of translations.


TheSparrow 4 years ago

Thank you for your insight but in regards to the questions I had on your earlier hub, I still am not sure I understand your answer to the questions concerning Jesus being mentioned along side the Father and the Holy Spirit (ie. Jesus' baptism). As you and I seem to both agree that Jesus is God, how did the Father speak to Him from heaven after He was baptized?

I personally think that as humans with limited understanding of the workings of an infinite God, we cannot make perfect sense or fully understand how God can be more than one being yet One at the same time. It seems to me since we both acknowledge that God is One, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God, (correct me if I'm wrong) how He does this won't make sense to us as finite creatures no matter how it is explained.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi TheSparrow - God existed both as present flesh and omnipresent Spirit at the baptism of Jesus (at the same time), for Jesus (Yahshua) is God our Savior, who shed His holy blood for our sins (Acts 20:28), and YHWH said clearly in Isaiah and Hosea that "There is no Savior besides Me." The Spirit of God descended 'like a dove', as a specific sign to John the Baptist who saw it and wrote about it. This event does not prove that there were three persons of God, each not the other, that co-existed eternally.

In the Old Testament, God manifested Himself in many forms (see my recommended hubs: "The Manifestations of God - Old Testament' and 'The Manifestations of God - New Testament). Our omnipresent, invisible God made Himself visible in many ways. That's what it's all about - it doesn't mean all those ways eternally co-existed side-by-side as 'persons', but One God showing Himself to mankind (just as He did when He appeared to Abraham with two of His angels in Gen 18).

I hope this better explains where I'm coming from. Words are sometimes not adequate to describe the One, True God - how awesome is He - He is indescribable! Thank you for your kindness and God bless you.


Isaiah 3 years ago

I just want to make sure I am clear on you are stating. Ultimately, will there be a God and the Son living with us? Or will there only be one "form" and that is God in spirit form? Which we will finally be able to see because we have our perfect, glorified bodies.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

We are told in 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." God is Spirit and the form we see that will walk with us, talk with us, the One with whom we will be 'in' and He 'in' us is YHWH, the LORD. John recorded in Rev 19:12-13 "His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." Rev 22:4 states, "they will see His face, and His name [will be] on their foreheads."

Jesus said in Rev 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son."

What will not happen is what people that are as carnal as Philip in John 14:8 expect to happen, namely that when we see the LORD Jesus that He will introduce us to His Father: "Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus told His disciples in vs. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Likewise, Jesus said in vs. 9 "Have I been so long with you, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

You might enjoy my hubs entitled "The Manifestations of God - Old Testament" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-FORM-o...

and

"The Manifestations of God - New Testament" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-FORM-o...

This was a very fascinating study of the Word.

Thank you, Isaiah ~ continue to be blessed in His Almighty Name.


Donna 2 years ago

Sister Judah, Did it not used to be God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Do you know when that changed?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi sister, Donna - See, the earliest Christians had the doctrine of God safe and sound in their hearts until about 200 AD when the "ravenous wolves" Paul warned them about entered the scene, "not sparing the flock" -- enter the Catholic Church. So, the precious faith of the saints did not start with the Trinity "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" (three persons, each not the other, but all God - that's kind of like Tom, Dick and Harry are three persons, each not the other, but all are human). It's time we find these things out and repent from the ignorance and indoctrination imposed upon us these last few centuries, as the time of Christ's return is closer than ever. He's calling His Bride to "Come Out of Her, My People, that you do not partake of Her sins, nor receive of Her plagues!" (Rev 18:4)

Here's an excellent start for you -- it goes through the recorded history of the doctrine of God and clearly shows when the "ravenous wolves" entered the picture. Blessings to you.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/CALVIN-Mur...

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