The Covenant of Sonship

The Progenator

Blessing of the Father to a son.
Blessing of the Father to a son.

Sons of Promise

With every kiaros season of God the Father ,Christ’s fivefold ministers are given the full picture of what is deficient in the Body in that season and this deficiency is then downloaded into the saints through preaching and teaching and prophetic declarations so that, that area of the Body may be more fully formed into a more mature Christ, until the lack is rectified. This will go on until we “all come to the unity of the faith”. Over and above the elementary doctrines as stated in Hebrews 6 and the Gospel of the Kingdom, comes an important subject that is now being emphasized and almost strategically being brought to the forefront of God agenda, this is the message of fathers & sons.

One of the truths of the Kingdom is the promise of Sonship, which is the eternal inheritance of the Saints. With every new generation comes the rebuilding of previous doctrines because the new vessels have been designed to handle this new information, so what we have is built line upon line, precept upon precept. The message of Sonship has grown over the years and it is reaching a level of maturation, some of the holes are being closed so to speak. Bill Britton was one of the pioneers in this field of study and Sam Soleyn, Kelly Varner, Mark Hanby has further developed this subject. Sam Soleyn has introduced me to the fourth level of maturation of sons which is the “Pater stage “. I only knew of the Nepios Stage, the Teknon or Teleios stage, the Huios stage. The Pater stage is the Father stage and the final stage, where the (huios) mature son fully represents the Father in character and nature or image and likeness. At this stage the Son only does what he sees the Father doing and only says what he hears the Father saying, he has no personal agenda or ministry, he has been stripped of everything that is self and lives to please the Father by becoming like the Father, so that He and the Father are one, see John 16 & 17. For more on the subject see Sam’s website, follow the link www.soleyn.com.

Understanding the Covenants :

The prerequisites to understanding sonship is that you must understand how the Covenants work. Firstly, there must be two contracting parties, party one promises to party two and party two promises back to party one. There is a third party, who is the beneficiary of this covenant. This man is Abraham, the beneficiary can only become the beneficiary when one of the parties dies. Hence Rev13:8 …the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the earth. A Priesthood must administrate that covenant. Who was the priesthood on the earth? It was the Melchisedek Priesthood, He was the High Priest of the Eternal Covenant. However, Christ is the Great High Priest after the Order of Melchisedek,

Romans 8:14-17 – “For those who are led by the spirit these are the Sons of God, for you did not receive a spirit that make you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship by him we cry “Abba Father”. The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in the sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”

There was an eternal purpose in the mind of God to have heirs before he created man. The Spirit of God fulfils that eternal purpose when we are born again. (Romans 8:1,2). In order to fully comprehend the magnitude of this we need to understand what happened in,( Exodus 19). God is attaching the promise of sonship to race, fathered by one man Abraham. We are also are aware of how God begins to define the nature of sonship through the Old Testament Priest Melchizedek, these 2 are bound together. One speaks of the status as sons and one speaks of the character of sons. Abraham becomes the fleshly lineage of sonship through the promise of God. Abraham speaks of status, Melchizedek represents character. (read Genesis 26:4). Is the Covenant God makes with Isaac, an extension of same Eternal Covenant to Abraham, of course. Abraham’s descendants are the Jews who happened to be in bondage in Egypt for 400 years .(read Exodus 19:3-6) – Is the Eternal Covenant that He wanted to extend to the Israel the same as the one he gave to Abraham & Isaac? No. What is the Eternal Covenant of Sonship?

Heb 6:13-20, For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply you.”And so, even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Gal 3: 15, Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

God swears to God that God will have sons. Whoever becomes a son has an unshakable Word of God, heaven and earth will pass away but my Word will not pass away. Up until Moses the Covenant that prevailed was that of Sonship. So if the Eternal Covenant is one of sonship then what was the Covenant made with Moses. It is the Covenant of Law unto Moses, it produced slaves, not Sons of God. Abraham’s descendants in the flesh are the Jews and they are in Egypt for a period of 400 years, they are being brought out of slavery.

Exodus 19: 5-6, Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

Is this what they ended up with, under the Law? Did they become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation? What happened? This is where we will pick up the rabbit trail in our next edition of the newsletter.

I submit to you that God was not just creating man, he was creating Spirit sons, see Luke 4, the genealogy of Jesus Christ, “ ...and Adam was the son of God”.

Sons of Promise - Part 2

We pick up from where we left off in answering the following questions on the backdrop of the text in Exodus 19: 5-6, Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

Is this what they ended up with, under the Law? Did they become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation? What happened? Obviously not. They are being brought out of Egypt and God brings them to Mt. Sinai and here is where we meet up with them: Exodus, the 19th chapter. In Exodus 19, God brings Moses up to the mountain and God says this to Moses: verse 3, “Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, ‘This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’” (Inserted – Exodus 19:3-6)

But before we get into that, look at this again. God says, “If you obey me fully and keep my covenant…” What covenant? This is Exodus 19. The covenant that is recorded—the Old Testament—is Exodus 20. But God says, “If you will keep my covenant.” What covenant? Someone may say, “Well, wait… forbear. God is speaking in anticipation of a covenant He is about to create. He knows that and whether they know it or not, God is about to create a covenant so He is saying to them, ‘If you will keep the covenant I am about to create.’” Nonsense… that’s not true, and it’s not true for two reasons. The first is: the covenant that they are promised is not the covenant of Moses, specifically because God promised them this: “If you will obey me fully and keep my covenant, of all the nations you will be my treasured possession, though the whole earth is mine, you will be for me” (this is the covenant God offered them) “You will be to me a kingdom of priests” (that’s a royal priesthood) “and a holy nation.”

Now that’s the new covenant, that’s the covenant that we have in the New Testament. You could hear Peter saying, “For you are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession.” (Inserted – actual verse—“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” – I Peter 2:9) That’s not the covenant that they end up with. How do you know that? Well because 1) there is only one tribe of twelve that is comprised of priests—that’s the tribe of Levi. God’s says, “You will be a kingdom of priests…” That the whole lot of them would be first a kingdom, then they would be priests—all of them. Were they not already a kingdom? No, they were not a kingdom; they were slaves. They were the descendants of Abraham, recently set free from Egyptian slavery. They were standing there at Mt. Sinai, newly escaped from slavery.

So the first observation relative to the point that the promised covenant here was not what they ended up with was the fact that they were all supposed to be priests. The second thing is that they were supposed to be “a holy nation.” And nothing like that ended up being the case. Hear the words of the Lord to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah, chapter 1. God says, “Hear O heavens! Listen, O earth! For I have raised up a people and they have rebelled against me. The ox knows his owner and the donkey knows his master’s crib but my people do not consider. Ah, sinful nation,”—that’s quite different from a holy nation—“Sinful nation, and a people laden with iniquity.” (Inserted – actual verse—“Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the Lord has spoken: ‘I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.’ Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the Lord; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.” – Isaiah 1:2-4)

And he says, “There is no soundness in them from the tops of their heads to the souls of their feet, only wounds and welts and running sores, because I have beaten them in correction and I have beaten them consistently and I’ve beaten them recently so that the wounds have not been healed.” (Inserted – actual verse—“Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness—only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.” – Isaiah 1:5,6) My point is that Israel was not then, and is not now, a holy nation.

The question is: how long did this curse remain? Well we know that in Jesus’ day, that curse was still in operation because in Matthew, the 13th chapter, Jesus rehearses—as the explanation for the fact that He spoke to the multitudes in parables, when He spoke to His disciples plainly—He said that the reason is that this people, “ ‘Though seeing, they do not see; hearing, they do not hear. Neither do they understand.’” (Inserted – actual verse—“This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.’” – Matthew 13:13,14)

The curse continued up through and including the time of Jesus—that curse by which they are said not to be a holy nation but instead a sinful nation and a people laden with iniquity—that curse continues to this day and it will continue until the time of Jacob’s trouble when the Jews repent of turning away from God ever so long ago. (Inserted – Jeremiah 30) Then God will redeem the nation to himself. So the point is: they were not a royal priesthood; they were not a holy nation. But the second aspect to this is that there was an existing covenant, including that covenant being served by priests. Look at verse 22, of the same Exodus 19, “ ‘Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.’” And then verse 24, “The Lord replied, ‘Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.’”

So God says, “If you will keep my covenant,”—which is an existing covenant, and complete with priests—what covenant then was in existence and why were there priests? We’ll come to that in just a moment. According to Moses in the book of Deuteronomy, the 5th chapter, we know what happened between the invitation that God issued to the Jews to come up, and the Law. (Inserted – actual verse—“When you heard the voice out of the darkness, while the mountain was ablaze with fire, all the leading men of your tribes and your elders came to me. And you said, ‘The Lord our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a man can live even if God speaks with him. But now, why should we die? This great fire will consume us, and we will die if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer. For what mortal man has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? Go near and listen to all that the Lord our God says. Then tell us whatever the Lord our God tells you. We will listen and obey.’” – Deuteronomy 5: 23-27)

God intended to bring them up into His presence because it is the presence of the Lord that changes men into sons of God. In the book of II Corinthians, the 3rd chapter, we are told that the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, though glorious as it was, was a fading glory to be surpassed by the ministration of righteousness. Then, analogizing to the ministration of condemnation, to the Ten Commandments and the Law, God says again, through the Apostle Paul, “The ministration of righteousness supercedes that, in glory.” (Inserted – actual verse—“Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! – II Corinthians 3:7-9) I’ll come to that in a moment.

The intention of God was to bring them up into his presence because where the presence of the Lord is, there is liberty and we, who with unveiled faces, behold the Lord’s glory, are transformed from glory to glory. (Inserted – actual verse—“But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” – II Corinthians 3:16-18) Now the point is that God wanted them—after initially barring how far they could come—God wanted, then, to sequentially (in sequence) to come down upon the mountain and then gradually bring them up into his presence. It would have been in his presence that they would have been transformed from slavery into sonship.

Moses tells us what happens in Deuteronomy, chapter 5. Since it was the presence of God that would have changed their status and made them into sons, it is important that you see what happened and why they ended up with the Law. Deuteronomy 5 says, “Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.)” (Inserted – Deuteronomy 5:1-5a)

They ended up not being vested in the original offer that God gave to them because as a condition that would cause that offer to vest, and for them to become the sons of God, they would have to go up into the presence of God—a fact that Moses said that they did not do—because it is the presence of God that would have transformed them into this level of glory. Their failure to go into the presence of God is what, in fact, resulted in them being given something other than the original gift. They were then not given the covenant of sonship; they were given a covenant of Law. Now, here is what the Law did. When they turned away from God, God had already sworn on oath to himself that He would make Abraham’s seed the beneficiaries, initially, of this covenant—the covenant of sonship. They rejected that offer and so God continued to look for a people who would receive this offer.

Was there a generation that actually realised the original Covenant of Sonship?

Grace, Mercy , Peace & Love



More by this Author


Comments 36 comments

Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

I would just like to clarify that Jesus was both God and man.  In the lineage shown in Luke 3, it is merely showing that Adam had no father and was indeed created by God Himself.  Adam was indeed made from the ground and thus because of sin, returns to the ground in a corruptible body.  He was not divine as Jesus in any means, as a god.  Nor are we.

Jesus, because he became a man, was our brother.  Because He is God, He is our Lord on earth and is our LORD in heaven.  When we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit of God, we become "children/sons of God". Though we are to become more like Christ in his character by the leadership of the Holy Spirit in our lives, this in no means "graduates" us into becoming gods ourselves.  Christians SIN because we come from the earth and are born of Adam and Eve (Romans 5:12).  Jesus came to give us an advocate, a Savior for the forgiveness of sin until the Day we no longer live in this sinful body.  Jesus Christ saves us just as we are (for no sin is greater than another), and we grow from babes to maturity as children/sons of God.

Yes, we will one day be immortal (after our physical death), but even the angels in heaven are not called gods. Some religions teach we will gradually become gods while on earth, thus note as to how the "serpent" tempted Eve in the Garden: Genesis 3:5 "and ye shall be as gods". Satan himself wanted to be "like God" (though he was an angel) Isaiah 14:14. The Angel Micheal's name means "Who is LIKE God", but he is NOT God.

Because we know angels do not procreate, this is a big question I have as to how it was that the fallen angels could procreate.  I am open to God's ways not being put in a box, however.  I know angels came in the form of men. 

The book of Enoch states that the women impregnated were "sirens" (spirits), so it certainly seems to contradict human women ~ or perhaps they became sirens upon union with those fallen angels. It turns out that humans worshipped these angels and their offspring as the gods of mythology.  Indeed this caused the sickening wickedness on the earth bringing God to wipe them out with the flood.

There are those in the true Christian faith who reference Enoch as possibly credible because this book was included in the Bible for 500 years.  His writings give much more detail about accounts written in the Bible, and Jude refers to his writings in the Book of Jude (who was Jesus' earthly brother).  Here's only a few examples for those who currently have a copy of the Book of Enoch and wish to compare:

Genesis 5:2 states that Enoch walked with God; and was not; for God took him (he was caught up into the air)

Jude 14 states "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying, behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints."

Genesis 6:2-4 aligns with Enoch 6:1-2

Genesis 6:5 aligns with Enoch 7:1-6

Ezekiel 23:20 aligns with Enoch 86:1,3,4,6 and Enoch 88:1,3

Jude 6 & 13 align with Enoch Chapters 15 & 16

I've ordered the Book of Enoch, but understand we have to be careful about what "translation" we get.  I'm satisfied with ONLY the Bible as we have it today, as Enoch appears to put much emphasis on the spiritual and demonic world.  I'll probably write a hub about it when I read through its entirety.  God bless!


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie prefall Adam was divine, he was 100 % spirit. He saw himself only as spirit therefore he was naked and not ashamed, his flesh covered his true identity. When the Trinity said "Let Us make man, in our image and likeness", that is what they produced. Postfall Adam lost his divinity, and fell to be preoccupied by his soul. Scripture then says that Adam was life giving soul, but Christ the last Adam, was a life giving spirit.

Angels, fallen or not can not procreate. We share different views about our spiritual identity and that's OK, we must agree to disagree. Because that is not what connects us, what connects us is that we have a common Father of our Spirits and share in the same Body of Christ. We can only walk into truth by the level of faith used by us to beleive that truth. Let every man be a lair and God be true. I will advice against the use of the Book of Enoch to gain clarity on thorny issues like, unions between spirits and humans producing a superhuman species. The scriptural order is that you can only produce after your own kind. We see this principal never violated on the farm yard. Ducks and chickens are in the same enclosure and they never produce Clucks or Dickens, its just the divine order of things. This kind of skeptisism in the Church today has proved by a leading survey done, that 67% of christians beleive in Alien Beings and Alien life force, what rubbish. Therefore it is vital that Apostles bring alignment to the Body of Christ, we cannot allow these doctrines to pass. This is my Fathers business, it my right and your right too. Caution, lay off the Enoch stuff. Grace, mercy and peace.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

I quote you, "prefall Adam was divine, he was 100 % spirit".  There is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR THIS.  He is not a god, as JESUS CHRIST was fathered by GOD HIMSELF through Mary.  You also stated scripture accurately in your latter statement, "Scripture then says that ADAM was life giving SOUL, but CHRIST the last Adam (as in fully man, yet fully GOD), was a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT.

Let me restate the truth: Adam was a life-giving SOUL.  CHRIST was a life-giving SPIRIT.

Your spiritual eyes are gravely deceived, and I will pray that God open them, my dear earthly brother!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

ADAM WAS FORMED OF THE DUST (NOT SPIRIT) Genesis 2:7. Adam and all living creation returns to the ground (Genesis 3:19: "Till you RETURN to the GROUND). We all have a living SOUL that survives our earthly bodies. This soul was breathed into Adam by God in Genesis 2:7 and thus all humanity has a soul that must be saved or condemned in the spiritual after-life.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie, I will not enter into a mud slinging contest about these issue, lets agree to disagree and like you said pray that the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth. Adam's body was indeed made from the dust of the earth, the Father breathed life into his mortal flesh and it became alive, he already had a soul, but it was deactivated. The act of sin activated his soul and de-activated his spirit, beleive or not. Stay Cool, sis.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

Well I see you guys are having a good time. I said in my hub that I was following you E.L. but that you seem to be taking a turn based on an assumption that was not true. I'm not sure yet if that has effected how you asked Christ into your heart, which is what binds us together. I am convinced that we all will be wrong in this or that minor part and that we will have to put up with each other's Scriptural idiosyncrasies until we get home to get everything right. I realize that there are things that are written that were not included in the canon of Scripture but they are not there for a reason. I don't know if there is a written work of those reasons so you can check out why it was not included but be sure that if God wanted that book in the Bible canon He would have had it added. He is God and it makes no sense that He would have us reaching beyond the Scripture when He has stated over and over that the Bible is the complete word of God and sufficient. That being said my sister, I believe that there are parts of works that have not been included in the canon that were written by great men of God. If they are not inspired as were the Scripture and inerrant as the Scripture they are not to be treated as Scripture so proceed with caution. I believe you are led and you are mature enough to read extra biblical works and not have it effect your doctrine but I think you have an idea that somehow this should be in the canon. I think God would have already done so if it was to be in there. Be careful Satan wants to have you be ineffective in ministry because you are having way too much success for his taste. Leon, Carrie is right about what she says so give it some thought and prayer. What she and I are mainly concerned with is your salvation so we can all rejoice together in heavenly places. I love you guys so much and pray that in the end God is glorified with all this searching and researching His Word.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

I would just like to clarify that I personally don't see anywhere in the Bible where the fallen angels are sons of God, as I state in my hub "Who Are the sons of God?"  There are those in even my church that believe they are, and I see this is where they get it ~ from Enoch.  I now find out there are different authors that have written the Book of Enoch, and I am with no body as to not claiming an exterior book to be inerrent. IF Enoch was in the Bible for 500 years, then removed; there must have been a good reason.

My reason for leaving my comment above is because I am held accountable should I not say a word to help keep a brother or sister on the right path, in love.  I expect my brothers and sisters in the Lord to do the same for me, and I appreciate your comment, "some-body" ~ Leon, forgive me if I sounded harsh.  It was not my intention.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

The world shall know believers because of the love between themselves.  Jesus said that.  I've never met you and Leon and yet I feel I've known you always.  I don't know of any Scriptures either that tell of any relationship of demons (fallen angels) and God.  I know that they were the 1/3 of the stars of heaven.  They left their first estate.  I know that they will be with their leader as will be all of the unsaved.  To be called a son is to have an inheritance and they have nothing but the wrath of God abiding on them.  They were created in perfection and were convinced into sinning by Satan's trafficking (salemanship).  They bought the bed now they must sleep in it.  Only in the respect that they were created and loved by God at one time can they be linked to God at all.  I read the Bible saying that hell was made for Satan and his angels.  Hey let me know what you learn from Enoch and we'll both know the whole story a little while from now.  Even so come Lord Jesus.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

no body: I'll attempt to email you and attach a book by Patrick Heron called Return of the Antichrist.  What I have shared thus far came from his review of this in his book. Leon, I will do a study on Adam and write a hub as to what I discover in the Word. I love opening up the Bible and studying, for it never runs out of knowledge and inspiration.  I'm out today, but will get to this probably next week.  God bless us all and lead us into His truth.  AMEN.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

Thank you and both of you have a good weekend.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Hi Your'll. listen, I am not in a popularity contest, that's wants to make an impression on those who read my hubs,neither am I looking for more hub fans. All I speak is the Truth revealed for this season of the Kingdom for his sons. If one lacks the spiritual perception to understand these things, then ask the HS to help you. But the utter nerve to question my salvation, based on difference of understanding is a typical pride response. I dont need to qualify to you how I received Christ into my heart, especially not some enigma over the internet who goes by the name, "no body". I play to the audience of the One who sent me, not to any of you. I am accountable in that area to my spiritual father, I have not given either of you spiritual jurisdiction over me. To use that as the criterea for spiritual evalution, is leaving a door open for great deception because our enemy knows scripture too, so if he agrees with all that you say, then his salvations must be sure????? Wake up guys, you are on the internet this is a global community that does not have a one sided American point of view. Who affords you that liberty, questioning who can and cannot enter the Kingdom based on your standard of scriptural interpretation. The spirit will not put new wine into old wineskins. Change your minds. I only say what I hear my Father saying and do what I only see my Father doing, I know I am, I am a son of God. So get over yourselves, your years of christain and church culture and enter Kingdom culture in the Holy Ghost, Peace Out.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Leon ~ I think it would be wise to just delete all comments, as we absolutely differ in regard to man being a god of any sort. If it's not edifying to your readers and you wish to minister and make your point to others, it's best not to have contention from us, right? This is your forum and you don't have to post what you wish not to. Works done through the Holy Spirit will be rewarded, so if you claim this to be the work of the Holy Spirit, then your reward awaits. God be with you, as He loves all of us and seeks to show us His Truth.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

And Leon I could change my name on here but it would not give me any advantage. If I speak the truth that's all that matters. If you recall I did not say for you to prove to me or justify to me your salvation. I said make sure for yourself and you know what? If you had given me the same advice I would conclude that you love me. If you have a different understanding of Scripture all you can do is seek and hold on to truth and always pray that the Holy Spirit show you the way. God sorts all this out in the end. All we can do is iron sharpen iron and if that is not edifying then leave each other alone. No one wants to see Christians fighting and if they do then they are not here for truth that may be shared. I am just a man whose capable of mistakes and all I can do is state how I see the Scripture and make a stand on that. If I am shown how I am wrong I will always be up to change as long as it bears up to the sole rule of truth and practice - the Scripture. We are to love one another and then the world will know that we are Christians. If we can't love one another what will the world conclude? Love ya, the Un enigma, No Body


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Don't patronize me, you guys are missing the point, to agree with others does not prove that you love them. We must love The Truth because it will set us free and Truth is not ones understanding of scripture, its a person viz Jesus Christ. No Body you did question my salvation, I 'll quote you, "I'm not sure yet if that has effected how you asked Christ into your heart" and again, "What she and I are mainly concerned with is your salvation so we can all rejoice together in heavenly places." is that not clear enough, no-body? I am not in anyway upset with anybody disagreeing with me, but I will not tolerate is this kind of "double talk" couched in the "love message". No-body your "advice" does not have a context, it is therefore out of line. Carrie I will not delete these comments, because we disagree, I am not afraid. I expect you to see others point of view as just that, their points of view. I'll quote Paul who prayed, "deliver me from unreasonable men". The difference is that I am no ordinary man, no-body, I am a son of God, I have the mind of Christ, my food is to do the Will of my Father. Its clear that we both have separate agenda's, because all of heaven as granted me authority and power to do my Ambassadorial duties, in the Kingdom, and for that I had to pay a very high price, you dont know me, so dont pretend that you know me. If you have known my Father and my Brother who sent me, then you would know me too, if you have an ear to hear, then hear what the spirit is saying. Love ya.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

LeonElijah, if you are a god (that's what it appears you are saying), are you equal with your Brother, Jesus Christ, who truly is Jehovah in the flesh?


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

You sound offended.  My shortsightedness should not cause you anger.  I know you must feel a position of power by the vary words that you choose.  So what if I didn't know what I'm talking about.  So what if I come to some conclusion you say is not true.  That does not effect your relationship with God does it?  Maybe it was I looking for reassurance because what you say confuses me and conflicts with my understanding of Scripture.  Just because my bottom line is for me to wonder, ask and reason with people about their salvation.  I need to know so that I can rest at night if the people touched by my writitng know Jesus.  Instead I get anger and resentment.  That's ok, but I don't want you to think I don't mean what I say.   Don't you wonder about your friends that you talk to, if they're saved?  Or is your ambassadorship something different than I think it is?  You should wonder about my salvation and care whether or not I am.  I believe I am but some very basic differences exist between us.  Say the word and we (you and I)can stop talking.  I'd like permission to ask or be asked things, to interact.  Do I have it?  Whether I do or not I still maintain a message of Love because that is what I am supposed to do.  "Love my neighbor as myself"  to "reason together"  to "be all things to all men so that by all means" some are saved.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie, your years of church culture has given you spiritual myopia, I am not a small letter "god", I am a small letter "son". This was the same bone of contention that Jesus my big Brother had to deal with in His day with the blind religious Pharisees . No I am not equal with my Brother Jesus, He has "All power and authority" and I have delegated power and authority, I am not the source of the power and authority, He is. But He has sent (means Apostolos) me with that same power and authority to be a wittness and to put on display the nature and the character of the Father, (John 20). Do you know what's even more amazing? Is that this is your identity too but you refuse to except your inheritance, because your are religious, that's sad. Carrie you are confusing function and identity. Jesus Christ was not Jehovah in the flesh, JC was JC in the flesh. As a matter of fact Jesus clothed or embodied the Christ, Christ is His spirit, Jesus was the carpenter son, his flesh. God the Father was IN Christ Jesus (note the change in the proper noun) reconciling man to himself, not counting their sins against them. His son (J.C) put Him (Father) on display to the world by displaying the character and the nature of the Father, He (JC) was an exact representation of the Father, (see Hebrews 1&2), He was so much so like the Father that He said if you see me you see the Father, I have come to show the Father. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life no man come unto the FATHER, except through me. Read my hub on Kingdom Discipleship and the Order of the Kingdom that should answer your questions. Carrie if you are truly a seeker of Truth, this information should make you cry, Abba Father, how much longer to you want to remain a slave and an orphan in your mind, forever learning but never coming to the Truth.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

No Body, I am not offended or angry with you, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood...The words that I choose to use comes from who I am, my identity. I only say what I hear my Father saying. I am never at "wonder" at the salvation of my friends and family so that I can sleep at night, like yourself. I see them through the eyes of the Father and where they will be in the future in His plan for their lives, I do not judge or draw conclusions when they are immature spiritually, I just love them. You see I have an arrangement with the HS, I co-ordinate my efforts with Him, He does the convicting, I show the love, and I rest in that. Yes, my Ambassadorship is different than what you think. (read my hub on Ambassadors of the Kingdom). No body you are man who is searching for your true identity, and when it comes to you, your mind wants to reason with it but your spirit is leaping to be the same, to "choose the words that I choose". This is not a strange feeling, it is a familiar feeling because the spirit bears witness with your spirit that YOU are a son of God too. My Father sent me to the lost sons like yourself, to remind you of who you are, your not an orphan or a slave to religious systems, you belong to the Household of the Father, the Kingdom. It was for this very reason that our big Brother came, to restore to us our fallen identity, but the god of this world has blinded us, that is why we must overcome the world and enter the Kingdom. I have much more to say to you, but you are not able to bear it know, we will talk again. The standard of love for God the Father and His sons are the same, your quoted text on "love your neighbour as yourself" it is according to the law, we are not under the law.(Check your bible) but a new commandment has been given to us that we love one another as I have loved you". This opens a whole new door of opportunities to love, my brother. The seasons have changed my nameless brother, get an identity first be comforable in who you are, stop this false humility and become the man God would want to write about. Grace ,mercy peace and love.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

LeonElijah, if you are a god (that's what it appears you are saying), are you equal with your Brother, Jesus Christ, who truly is Jehovah in the flesh?


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie I already answered this question, see above.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

I saw you call Jesus your big brother, so I guess that would answer my question ~~ so I suppose you are a lesser god, but a god nonetheless. This is a bit confusing, but it's beyond my Biblical proof that would state otherwise. I'm certain no body walks in the light and the light reveals all darkness. He is my brother and in this, we share the same trait. AMEN.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie, Hebrews 2:10-11 For it was fitting for Him, for who are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering, For both He who sanctifies are all from one Father, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them His brothers. Carrie, Jesus Christ calls me His brother, I thinks its only fair to do the same for Him, don't you think? Read all of Chapter 2 and draw your own conclusions and stop putting words in my mouth if you are confussed. AMEN.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Verse 13 also clarifies, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME". We are sons (children) of God, not gods. Reference the original prophesy in Isaiah 8:18 "Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given Me are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion." So, as our mother and father on earth, being saved are also our brethren in Christ, Jesus Christ is the image of our Father and is our Father in Heaven (He was God with us). We are His brethren through salvation, not as an equal level of brother or sister (as equally God with Him). I realize you think I'm in error and you have your place to think so. We will all be held accountable for our motives in the end. If it is to exalt the man, our flesh, it is not of God. If it is to exalt Christ as God, we are of God and are His children. AMEN.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie, God the Father is the Father of our spirits, this has got nothing to with natural geneology, we are from above.  Christ is the spirit of the Son.  We are in Christ, the one and same spirit, the HS connects all the spirits The Fathers, the Sons and the sons, one Spirit.  Jesus Christ prayed in John 16-17, Make them one has We are One, I in You, they in You and I in them. He was not talking about unity among the christains, He was talking about a spiritual connectedness that only exsists in a Spiritual Family.  Am I showing you a lessor or a greater thing  Carrie, pertaining to your spiritual identity?  You are not a human being having a spiritual experience, you are a spiritual being having a human experience. That's who Jesus Christ was, a spiritual being living in a human body displaying an Eternal lifestyle, THAT'S WHO YOU ARE TOO, I have said enough on this subject, lets just part company on this issue, PLEASE, my sister.  


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

Thank you that you are still talking and loving Leon. I have never quite heard the Word used in this doctrine that you speak. It is very strange to me. I have to go to work now but later maybe you'd care to speak on a verse or two. Thanks again my friend for allowing the communication. No body out.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

no body , You are welcome, I will be here should you need to chat, love you bro.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Jesus was God in the flesh. To say we are spirits first before human is backwards. That would mean we pre-existed with God prior to being born human. While He knew us IN our mother's womb, we were not spirit before human. We were born human (of the dust) and while we have the breath of life, this is not the Holy Spirit until we are saved. That Spirit is Christ's that dwells in us and makes us one with Him (kind of like a husband and wife are one). We are His bride, the church and are one with Him now and forever.


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

You just would not let up already? Yes Carrie we pre-exsited before being born human. We exsited in God. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before you were born I consecrated you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations. He did not know us IN our mothers womb, He knew us BEFORE we were IN our mothers womb. Jesus was Jesus in the flesh, God the Father dwelt in the spirit of Jesus Christ, which is called the Christ. Mary bore the child, God gave us the Son. My dear it seems like this is an information overload, you just not getting it, maybe that's the problem you are tring to figure this out with your head, and not receiving this in your spirit. Yet your spirit believes but your head would let it. Just beleive that it is so by faith, is it too much to ask of you, Carrie. This is suppose to be foundational understanding, can we please go on to more wonderous things, darling. If you would just put down the defense for a moment, you will see it. The just shall live by faith.


no body profile image

no body 7 years ago from Rochester, New York

Ok, here's a good example of how I'm confused. You just spoke to Carrie and you used the the term "in God". You said we "existed in God". I know "in Christ" happens after salvation, but how can you say we were "in God" before we were born?  After we are born what happens to "in God"  so that we must then accept Him to be "in Christ" ?  This is why the words you use seem so confusing to us because it contradicts verses and truths we know from other parts of Scripture.  The way I understand the Scripture "in sin my mother conceived me".  I was born under the universal sin of my father Adam.  I continue "in sin" until I receive the Son and then I am "in Christ".  My sin is forgiven (covered under the blood) and my body ("this body of death"  Paul called it) is "waiting for the redemption" so that I am rid of "this body of death". My body is redeemed at the time Christ comes for His church in the clouds. (1 Thes 4:17) Then, "In Christ" I am holy. "In Christ" I am redeemed.  "In Christ " I am a "joint heir".  But I don't see the term "in God like you use it.  I realize that you connect God and Christ in ways I'm not familiar but the Word gives the relationship a different connotation than you do.  Why does it seem that you are taking the idea of "in God" to a whole new level than intended? 


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Carrie, never once did I say we are gods or Deity, any comment you submit from here on I will delete, because you have an unteachable spirit and do not have a thirst for the truth, you just want to be right in the narrowness of your understanding, your are religious, in self deception and lovin it. Every question that you posed I answered with scripture to back it up and you ignored that, never once to consider that what your saw was not in the text but choose to attack. It is this point that Word of God calls you evil in your heart, and that you are just like your father satan, who loves darkness more than light. I must let you wallow in your mudpool,  but I will not cast pearls to pigs. Bye bye.

No body, lets begin from the top, I will try and make this as simple as possible and answer your question in stages. And will use scripture, every step of the way. In order for this to make sense we have to presuppose that you are "saved", because this is will not make sense to a heathen.

1.Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He (Father) chose us IN Him (Father) before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Father), in love. He predestined us to adoptions as sons, through JC to Himself (Father), according to the kind intentions of his will. (The Covenant).  Ephesians should be the first book of the Bible because it introduces God the Father in Eternity before Creation in time.

All off your answers is found in that one text, beleive it or not, but let me break it down for you.

2. The above text is about God the Fathers intentions for all of creation in eternity, that is before He even started creation.  His Primary agenda was having sons, He set out first to interpose this agenda with a Covenant that He made with Himself (Heb 6:13), Christ and the Holy Spirit, they are three yet one, the Trinity, ok.  Christ is in the Father, as the Son, so when He choose us to the adoption of sons, he can only choose us in Christ, the Son.  You see the heavens is not a place where God dwells, all of the heavens and the earth is contained in God the Father. God is Spirit, and the Spirit is Life, so all life orginates from God.  Got that?

3.The Father predestined you in Christ for sonship, therefore He knows you BEFORE you were in your mothers womb, as a spirit son.  Your mother and father provides you with earth suite to make your spirit legitimate on the earth, because without a body, spirits are illegal on this planet, that is why a demon must possess a body either an animal or human.  So when JC left the earth, He told them that the world will see Him no more but that His disciples will seen Him, and that He will send them the HS and He will teach them all things concerning Him. How where they going to see Him now that He is leaving the earth?

4. Jesus Christ acended into heaven, in the ressurected bodily form, which we will also have on that Day.  He took His body with Him, but from now on, He will dwell in us as the Christ, we provide the body for His spirit to indwell in us, therefore we are called the Body of Christ, because we legitimise that Spirit (Christ the Son) on this planet.  Get that?

5. The sin conception is valid for your body of sin, your human frame, your body is not who you are, your body is where you are, get that?  Sin dwells in your members your flesh, Romans 6,7 & 8.  Your spirit can not sin and that is your true identity, it is already seated with Christ in heavenly places, it has already tasted dead and life and now enjoys the ressurection position of immortality.  That is why your Body must also be redeemed like Paul say, because, this fleshly sin body can not contain the Life Spirit which we will get when the last trumpet will sound, that will complete our transformation. 

6.So you are created with the same material that makes up the Trinity in creation, which is spirit, and you are, becasue it says in Genesis 1:26 & 27, "Let Us make man in our image and likeness...", what where you before you possesed a body of dirt and life was breathed into the mortal body? Answer: spirit, becasue only in Chapter 2:7 does God create a body for Spirit Adam.  The domion mandate was given to the Spirit Adam, first. Read your Bible bro. 

7. Principal of creation:  Whenever God wants to create or make something he thinks of the thing that He wants to create and then he speaks His thoughts out to the material that He wants it to be created from and from the material come forth this thoughts in the form of creation.  Eg. When He was creating the heavens, he spoke to the atmosphere and created stars and planets etc, He said let the heaven.., when He was creating the vegetation and plants, he said Let the earth be filled with every kind of herb and out from the material came all the Green stuff, ok. In order for any of the created things to stay alive they must remain attached to the material of origin, pull a plant out of the earth, it dies, Biology and Foodchain 101, Ok.  So God was creating spirit man, who or what did He speak too? Yes, He spoke to Himself and out from God came spirit man, because you where in Christ and Christ was present at the creation. He took your spirit and put it in an earth suite that he fashions (made) with his hands, and breathed Life into the human body, and man became alive, fully human and fully God. Prefall Adam was a son of God.

8. The intension of the Father was to always show us this level of "in God" as you put it, but He will only reveal this to those who are His mature sons.  This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in Parable to the mutitudes but shared the secrets of the Kingdom to His disciples.  This information was given to the sons of the Kingdom, not to the members of the Church.  You have been robbed of this information because your Church leaders, dont want to bring you to maturation, they dont how to, they want to maintain membership and religion.

9. You are a son of God you are called to sonship in the Kingdom, not into membership of a Church (read my hub on the Church is not the Kingdom) as a matter of fact I cover most of these issues in my various hubs, if you are truly who you know you are you will search these issues, because deep down you always knew that there was something more.  This is your inheritance as a son, the Kingdom invites to take what is rightfully yours.  My hope for you is that you will abandon religion and Church and seek ye First the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.  The love of the Father is awesome, I know its says that He will not share His Glory with another, but you are not another, you are His son and you belong to His Royal Household.  Once you find the Kingdom your life will change, I promise you. To the sons we don't just know God as God but we know Him as Father, He is my Father and your Father.

Grace,mercy ,peace and love. 


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 years ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

no body, here is scripture ref for point 9, "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." (I Corinthians 2:6-7) Please read my Elementary Doctrines Hub, it will also help with questions you may have, it begins with Repentance and Faith towards God, Baptisms, Laying on of Hands, Resurrection from the dead, and Eternal Judgement. Its a Kingdom perspective not a religious Church persepective.


Reformation sons 3 years ago

The debate has been very enlightening for me. Some of the theological and biblical inquiries raised are indeed gray areas for millions of religious people and to be honest I could have had plent of difficulty responding to the level of your accuracy. I am so informed Papa Lee. I had read the main article before and ignored the comments bellow the main hubb, but today was another whole new dimension, and thanks.

My love.


Kwanele 2 months ago

God is good we have light


Leon Elijah profile image

Leon Elijah 7 weeks ago from The Household of Sam Soleyn - Durban - South Africa Author

Hi Kwanele

To receive the message of sonship is to receive the light of the Word.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working