The Evolution of Satan - Part 1

Introduction

The purpose of this study to is look at how Satan has evolved over the centuries. The image we have of Satan now is quite different from the image that Judaism has and when looking at the Old Testament texts, the Satan of today is unrecognisable. How did we get to this position? Are the beliefs we hold today firmly grounded in scripture or affected by other sources? Were the New Testament writers influenced by other sources? How much of our traditions affect how we interpret the Old Testament?

In this study I will not be considering the talking snake of Genesis as this requires a separate hub of its own.

The Supremacy of God

The many gods of the pagan nations divided the world into many parts and domains, and made it appear as the battle-ground of hostile powers. God however renders Earth and Heaven, light and darkness, life and death as one; a universe ruled by His everlasting wisdom and goodness. It is the work of one great designer and ruler who is the beginning and the end, who arranges everything according to His will. Whereas the some sections of the Church have adopted the pagan idea of a god (Satan, Apollyon) ruling over the underworld, this stance has not been accepted by God. In Psalm 139:8 David asks where he can hide from the Lord's presence. If he goes to the Heavens He is there, if He goes to the grave, He is there, light and darkness are not hidden by God. There is nowhere that God's influence and rule is absent.

Old Testament scripture insists upon the unity of God and His government of the world, and recognises alongside of Him no principle of evil in creation. God has no counterpart either in the powers of darkness, as the deities of Egypt and Babylon had, or in the power of evil, such as Ahriman in the Zoroastrian religion.

Satan = adversary

The word 'satan' (Strong's #7854) is simply the Hebrew word for 'adversary'. In a number of instances, the bible translators did not render the word as 'adversary' but retained the Hebrew word and capitalised the 'S' to turn the noun into a proper noun, that is a specific name of a person. In those passages the reference to 'Satan' has been inferred, not because that's what the translation gives us per se, but because the bible translators chose to give us their interpretation of how the word 'satan' should be understood.

The references following are passages where the Hebrew 'satan' is used, but the translators chose to render as 'adversary':

Numbers 22:21-22 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab. Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary (satan) against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.

Why wasn't this use of 'satan' retained as 'Satan'? Because the translators didn't want the Angel of the Lord to be called Satan, so the word 'adversary' was given to us.

1 Samuel 29:3 But the princes of the Philistines were angry with him; so the princes of the Philistines said to him, “Make this fellow (David) return, that he may go back to the place which you have appointed for him, and do not let him go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he become our adversary (satan). For with what could he reconcile himself to his master, if not with the heads of these men?

Here the Philistines are complaining about David being amongst them when they were about to go into battle against Saul. Again the bible translators didn't want David to be called Satan, so they gave us 'adversary'.

1 Kings 5:3-5 You know how my father David could not build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which were fought against him on every side, until the LORD put his foes under the soles of his feet. But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side; there is neither adversary (satan) nor evil occurrence.

Perhaps the translators didn't want to give us the impression that God had done away with Satan.

1 Kings 11:14 Then the LORD raised up against Solomon an adversary (satan), Hadad the Edomite, from the royal line of Edom.

1 Kings 11:23 And God raised up against Solomon another adversary (satan), Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah.

1 Kings 11:25 Rezon was Israel's adversary (satan) as long as Solomon lived, adding to the trouble caused by Hadad. So Rezon ruled in Aram and was hostile toward Israel.

Esther 7:6 Esther said, "The adversary (satan) and enemy is this vile Haman." Then Haman was terrified before the king and queen.

Here to say that a man, Hadad, Rezon or Haman, are Satan makes absolutely no sense, just as saying the King of Babylon is Satan (Lucifer) in Isaiah 14 doesn't make sense either.

So if the translators are sometimes translating 'satan' as 'adversary' and other times giving us 'Satan', then they are not giving us a correct consistent translation. They are giving us the Church's interpretation which is quite different.

Adversary Translated as Satan

Now let's look at those passages where the translators gave us 'Satan' to see what they tell us about 'Satan as a specific individual':

Zechariah 3:1-2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"

In the Old Testament, the primary purpose of Satan is to act as an accuser. In this instance God is having none of it, and rebukes Satan. None of the powers that are ascribed to Satan today are evident here.

In the book of Job, there are fourteen occurrences of 'Satan'. I'm not going to list them all here, but in these accounts we have a picture of an adversary to Job appearing before God on two occasions accusing him.

Now if at this point Satan is a rebellious personification of evil who has been cast out of Heaven for wanting to be God, then why does God behave in such an odd way in the Book of Job? Why doesn't God call for one of the angels to have him thrown out or rebuke him at least? God has been far more ruthless with rebellious evil people: He killed thousands of Israel during 40 years in the desert; killed hundreds of thousands by bringing Assyria and Babylon against Israel; and virtually the entire human race in the Noahchin flood. But here God has a nice friendly cosy chat with the 'author of all the evil' that led to God killing all those people? Does this make any sense?

God allows Satan in the first instance to destroy Job's property and kill his family. In the second instance God permits Satan to inflict painful sores over job's body. In both cases, Satan is not permitted to take Job's life.

Something that is made abundantly clear in Job is that Satan is tightly under God's control. Satan is NOT permitted to act on his own free will and is totally INCAPABLE of touching Job at all unless God enables him do so. If Satan being a rebellious evil ex-angel, then why does he not simply do as he pleases; why does he complain that God has protected job preventing him from taking any action?

In Judaism, Satan is regarded as the member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after he has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God.

The only other reference to 'Satan' is found in 1 Chronicles:

1 Chronicles 21:1-3 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.” But Joab replied, “May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord’s subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?”

For the first time, we now have a change in Satan's behaviour. He appears to have moved on from simply accusing men to now inciting them to do evil. Or is he?

The same event occurs in 2 Samuel:

2 Sam 24:1-3 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.” But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

In Chronicles we are told that Satan incites David to take a census of the army, but in 1 Samuel, we are told that it is God Himself who incites David. How can this contradiction be resolved? Perhaps God commanded Satan to go and incite David. Or perhaps the writer of Chronicles added his own interpretation of events.

2 Samuel was written around 930BC soon after David's reign. 2 Chronicles was written around 430BC, significantly, after Israel had returned from exile. During their exile, after the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon, Israel would have been exposed to the Zoroastrian belief system. Zoroastrianism has many similarities to Judaism, but one key difference is it's belief in demons and evil spirits in opposition to a single creator god. It is almost certain therefore that these ideas began to affect the beliefs of Israel and resulted in the beginning of the evolution of Satan: the first step being a transformation to a spirit that opposes God and incites men to sin.

No Demons or Fallen Angels

It is also worth noting that demons and spirits as independent beings in opposition to God simply do not exist in the OT, and these ideas did not creep into Israel's national consciousness until after the return from exile. See my hub http://hubpages.com/hub/You-Wait-4000-Years-for-a-Demon-then-Hundreds-Show-up-at-Once

Neither is there any record in the Old Testament to Satan being a fallen angel that has been cast out of Heaven. With reference to Isaiah 14 which is commonly held as supporting this belief, see my hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-this-Lucifer-Character. With reference to Ezeikiel 28, the other passage used to support this belief, see the hub http://hubpages.com/hub/ezekiel-28-no-satan-here by brotheryochanan.

Summary

Jewish commentators don't believe Satan when defined as a singular personification of evil responsible for all the evil in the world, exists at all. Judaism considers angelic adversaries, 'satans', to be fulfilling God's will by testing men's faith. This is consistent with the general Jewish view of angels, in which they are deemed incapable of defying God's will because they do not possess free will / free choice. Satan has his place among the angels of heaven, and is bound to execute the will of God, his master; and though sin and death are occasionally ascribed to him, he can seduce and harm only as far as God permits him, and in the end must work for good. God is the creator of light and darkness, the maker of peace and of evil, Isaiah 45:7.

In summary, satan of the Old Testament is used to simply denote an adversary, both human and angelic. The translators from the Hebrew have capitalised the 'S' in order to reinforce the idea of Satan as a specific spirit entity in opposition to God. We see the first step in the evolution of Satan from a subservient angel to one that is beginning to develop his own will, but find no evidence of him being cast out of Heaven as some fallen angel.


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Comments 87 comments

aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain

Good food for though, and possibly I will need to re-evaluate my prior thinking.

One of the great things about being on the hub is that you read things that challenge one.

Thanks, you wrote another hub that cuts to the heart of the matter in a clear cut, scriptural manner.

Bet you get some flack from the fundies!

John

BTW, upped it and sent it to my Facebook list!


50 Caliber profile image

50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

I voted this up and useful, with out agreement or disagreement but solely on the basis of "challenge" at this time as I will have to fall back and evaluate, giving thought and study as this topic has been a recent talking point between myself and others. Peace, 50


deborah 6 years ago

Well if Satan turned up in his bedroom one night and shreiked at him he may well change his opinion.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Thanks for your comments John and 50.

My motivation for this hub is that there are number of hubs here talking about Satan and how powerful he is etc, and something just didn't sit right with me. Having read the Old Testament a few times and listened to it on my MP3 player driving to work, I honestly couldn't remember demons ever being mentioned, and references to Satan were very few.

There had to be an explanation, so I decided to try to find out what the Jewish perspective is on Satan. Afterall it is their scriptures we are reading and we are the wild olives grafted in. What I found from Wikipedia and a couple Jewish websites rather surprised me, and as I reviewed the scriptures they referred to I could see exactly their position.

There is a Part 2 and a Part 3 to this study, and maybe a part 4 if I look at the New Testament. However, the Satan references there are so many that a Part 4 probably wouldn't be practical.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Deborah.

Satan is not going to turn up in my bedroom or anyone else's. If you hold to the idea that he is the author of all evil and heading up hoards of demons, your or I would be far to insignificant to bother with.

The Old Testament never once mentions demons, so either:

1. God chose not to tell us about them - unlikely if they existed in those times.

2. They didn't rebell until the intertestamental period between the OT and Jesus' ministry.

3. They don't exist at all and are the figment of pagan imaginations.

Take your pick as to which you believe, but if they never showed up in Abraham's, Joshua's, David's or Solomon's bedrooms, they won't be coming near mine.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain

Hi DH....

To comment further, YES I am open to explore what you state about the adversary, however having been 'involved' previously in the dark side, and after coming to faith involved fully in deliverance, I can tell you that 'demons' HAVE turned up in my bedroom, and I have been there when they have manifested at ministry sessions, and even once (famously) when they were expelled at a faith meal from the leading lady prayer warrior!

Christ ALWAYS first cast out the demons before he healed folk or worked with them, wherever He found demonic influence, and we are to do the same.

So YES I agree we need to examine whether Churchianity has given a greater role to the adversary than he qualifies for, but NO that does not mean that an adversary, with forces at his command, does not exist.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi John,

I'm not going to deny anyone's experiences. I can only look at what scripture has to say about demons and ask questions about it. At the end of the day, there must be an explantion as to why demons don't show up until the New Testament.

It is interesting that you say one was expelled from the leading lady prayer warrior. How did it manifest? How did it get into a woman of faith in the first place? How long was it there for? How come she or no one else knew of its existence previously?


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain

How did it manifest?

She back flipped over a table and started kicking out, she needed to be taken away to a quiet area and 'dealt' with! It certainly made the faith meal more interesting!!!!

How did it get into a woman of faith in the first place?

Those ladies are in the front line, and normally pastors don't really know how to deal with them or keep authority over them, so they can relatively easily get 'off course' especially as they are in full time contact with the adversaries 'troops' and environments.

How long was it there for?

Who knows, I would guess (with hindsight and reflecting on observations) a long time.

How come she or no one else knew of its existence previously?

Pity the pastor or leader who challenges a prayer leader/warrior, let alone a mere congregation member.... these women are formidable, and normally either widows or single ladies of mature years, and in general they are unaware (AS MOST FOLK WHO ARE AFFECTED ARE) for the simple reason that they are afflicted by 'familiar spirits' and the clue is in the name.

Familiar spirits will stay hidden for years, mine was hiding in the guise of my grandfather... go figure! - and I only became aware of his duplicity when I came to faith and he started to get uncomfortable, until then I had felt quite charmed to have my own grandfather advising me from the spirit world.....

So in short,these things are like fleas on a dog, they need to be dealt with regularly or the old dog will be so involved in scratching that he's no use for anything.

John


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth with a third of the angels. He is known as the 'god of this world' (2 Cor 4:4; Luke 4:6). Satan is called the 'Dragon, the serpent of old, the devil and Satan' in Rev 12:9. He is not a fallen angel; correct. He did speak through the snake, and his spirits obviously speak through people as well, as shown in the passage here:

2 Chron 18:18-22 (good to read the whole passage): Verses 20-21 state, "Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'

'By what means?' the LORD asked.

'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said..."

In the New Testament, we see Satan spoke through Peter (Mat 16:23) and entered into Judas (John 13:27). We also see demon-possessed people ~ demons only manifest in the presence of God (Mark 5 and many more passages). Animals certainly house demons, as we see in Mark 5 (pigs), so it's obviously possible for Satan to use a snake.

Yes, the LORD does have sovereign rule over Satan and his angels; even demons. The LORD is the Adversary of Satan and vise versa. In comparing 1 Chron and 2 Sam, Satan is also used to exercise the wrath/anger of God, but is not God Himself.

I don't know if you've read my hub "Is Everyone Possessed?" (just a catchy title) This goes through the Bible showing how the spiritual realm influences the physical.

brotheryochanan doesn't believe in Satan or demons as spiritual beings/entities. That is absolutely anti-biblical doctrine. Eph 6:12 is a good example of disproving such a doctrine. Either the Bible is a lie, or this doctrine he believes and teaches is a lie. As for me, I will believe the Bible.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi JD, It would be good if you read all the words of 2 Chron 18:18-22. God is addressing the host of Heaven. Who are the host of Heaven? Angels, not demons. Who sends the angel? God. Who put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets? God. Did the spirit do as it wanted? No. Was it in submission to God? Yes. Does God send angels as adversaries (satans)? Yes, see Numbers 22:22.

So there is no demon here. Demons don't exist in the OT. They only came into the Jewish national conciousness after they mixed with pagan nations, and some apocryphal writings. Demons then became part of Jewish beliefs so one would expect to find them in the NT.

Ask yourself this question. Why do you choose to believe in demons that have their origins in pagan beliefs but don't exist in your heritage faith - Judaism. The NT and OT are supposed to be in harmony, yet on this subject they are not. Something's wrong with the demon idealogy then clearly. It's up to you what you want to believe of course. And it's up to you if you just want to take scripture at face value rather than digging in to it.

Now as regards satan, then yes there is a case for an individual angelic being that God sends to oppose men. However your beliefs about him cannot be found anywhere in OT scripture, but can be found in pagan religions all over the world. Don't bother to quote from the Book of Enoch as this book IS NOT INSPIRED OF GOD.

If you want to quote Eph 6:12, how about looking up Isaiah 45:7 in a proper Jewish translation, not some watered down translation that tells you what to believe by giving you its own interpretation.

You and I have both inherited a load of doctrines from church about satan, demons, Heaven and Hell. The choice is, do you hold fast to those doctrines, searching scripture to to try to support them? Or do you hold on to them lightly, searching scripture to see if they are valid? For me, I finding that lots of church doctrine is pagan derived nonsense that has become so ingrained in the fabric of Christianity, that people believe they are Christian beliefs. When we dig into the OT, so many of these doctrines fall over.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Why do you not think there's a host of heaven that includes both God's angels and the devil's angels? What does Eph 6:12 state? "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." There are three noted 'heavens' in the Bible. Just because demons are in the heavenly realm, doesn't mean they are in the highest heaven, nor that they are good. Spiritual forces of wickedness are not good.

Of course God created Satan, therefore the Adversary is allowed to exist and for God's purpose, until the appointed time of their judgment to torment. Look Mat 8:29 "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?'" I suppose you don't believe in the hell that's reserved for Satan and his angels? Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" I would say the god of this world has you deceived.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

JD. What you are failing to appreciate is that it was God who comissioned the spirit/angel to be the lying spirit in the mouths of the false prophets. Was this spirit under the direction of Satan? No. Was it acting under God's authority? Yes. Was it a wicked spirit? No. Was it's purpose to be an adversary to God's people? No. Who's side was it on? God's. Was this spirit in rebellion? No. Who did it willingly serve? God. THERE IS NO DEMON HERE. Your quoting of eph 6:12 is totally irrelvant here.

How can you say that on the basis of this hub, I'm decieved by the god of this world? All I have done is to present the facts of the OT. You appear not to like those facts.

You can't criticise those who question the validity of demon doctrines when you believe that angels fathered children with human women and base beliefs on the Book of Enoch; you are not arguing from a credible point of view.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

The Bible says the 'sons of God' mated with women and produced giants. There are scholars on both sides of the fence here. What we do know is the world became so wicked God had to destroy it. Just because God controls Satan and his demons (and only when it comes to the children of God does He put limits on them, by the way), doesn't mean there was not a war in heaven and Satan and his angels were permanently cast out of the holy realm of God. They are already judged, as mankind without Christ. There is no repentance for them, as there is for mankind. There is a final fate for them, as there is with mankind that rejects Christ. Evil is allowed to exist until then, just as mankind...


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

I don't care how you choose to interpret Sons of God, angels have no sperm or DNA. End of story.

You said earlier that the god of this world has me decieved. I'm assuming you are refering to the god of this world who blinds the eyes of those that don't believe, 2 Corinthians 4:4. Is this the same God of John 12:40, and Amos 8:11,12 ?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

God blinds and Satan blinds. Notice the small 'g' in 'god of this world' (2 Cor 4:4). Jesus said His kingdom is NOT of this world (John 18:36). I guess you deny the virgin birth then? Jesus certainly had DNA (of his mother). Likewise, the offspring (Nephilim) of the fallen angels had DNA of their mothers. What part of mimicking God don't you understand?

And, how do you explain the fallen 'Lucifer' (heylel) being the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14) ~ and the anointed cherub in the Garden of Eden, cast out as profane, being the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28)? Both of these were indeed post-flood kings of the earth. How do you explain that we can entertain angels unaware? (Heb 13:2) They certainly appeared in human form all throughout the Bible, even God (Gen 18:1-22).


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

JD. 'Notice the small g'? You only have a small 'g' because that's what the translators gave you. They gave you their interpretation as well. Hebrew doesn't have small or large letters. The Earth is the Lords and everything in it. There is nowhere where His authority and works are not accomplished. He is the God of Heaven and the Earth.

Why would you you assume I deny the virgin birth. I don't. Nothing is impossible for the Lord, the creator of Heaven and Earth.

If the Nephilim had only the DNA of their mother's as you suppose, then angels cannot be their father's can they? Duh. It's a biological fact that a human egg only contains half the DNA required to produce offspring. A sperm from the father providing the other half is required to cause the egg to start dividing after the two DNA nuclei fuse together. Human eggs cannot spontaeneously start dividing and lack half of the DNA required for a human. Basic birds and bees see.

There is NO FALLEN angle in Isaiah 14. Isaiah was drawing a parable between Belshazzer and an old Caananite pagan myth. See my hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-this-Lucifer-Charac...

As for Ezekiel 28, there is a perfectly logical explanation for this being a parable about the King of Tyre - human by the way. It's the subject of a future hub, when I've got a couple others out of the way.

Of course angels can appear as men. Doesn't mean they are men though. Angels do not transform into flesh and blood. Notice the keyword is 'appear' not 'become'. Appearance is to do with perception, not being.

The OT contains no demons or fallen angels. FACT.


50 Caliber profile image

50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

Disappearinghead, "The OT contains no demons or fallen angels. FACT." Don't take this wrong as I'm not challenging or being smart or disrespectful. When you throw out a statement as fact, is it by strong faith? of movable character if a new light shine another direction or is it hard headed stubbornness? I am in the course of reading the OT again, for reasons other than a demon hunt, but you have inspired me to add that to my list.

I find this an interesting challenge to gain knowledge and find it a good topic, 50


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi 50. Thanks for the admonishment. No I guess I can't say 'FACT' in a hard headed stubborn manner. Afterall it's such statements that lead people to hold rigidly to unbiblical doctrines come what may. So I retract that statement, and say, "I'm almost certain that given the information I have at the current time, that the OT contains no demons. However, should God give me a clip round the ear and show me something I've never seen before, I am prepared to modify my position."


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

While I have to agree that there may not have been any fallen angels/demons in the OT, I am personally inclined to believe that Satan and his angels fell sometime in the NT.

What's interesting is Revelation 12:7-10

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Apparently "No place found for them" could indicate that the status in Heaven they once possessed had become obsolete, and because they likely had no other purpose they couldn't stay in Heaven.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I can possibly agree with you about there being no fallen angels in the OT, but I cannot believe that there are no fallen angels at all, period.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi SV. Thanks for your comments. A fall from Heaven in the NT is something I have considered but not studied. Thus far I have only looked at the OT as it has seemed strange to me that there is such a disjoint between the OT and the NT on satan and demons etc.

The NT is so full of demons and satan, that I think one would have to look at each individual case. However, I just don't believe that satan is all that the church makes it/him out to be.

The Catholic church has lied to us about tithing, torture in hell at the hands of demons immediately following death, eternal torment, and the trinity. So it seems to be just like them to big up satan too. Even with the reformation and the mult-denominational offshoots, not all Catholic doctrine was abandoned.

I'm not saying as some have that Satan doesn't exist, but I'm just not convinced of all the superpowers that have been ascribed to him.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

No fallen angels in the OT? What about Isaiah 14:12? Prophecy only? I heard a pastor preach on demons last week. He said that the reason demons manifested themselves in the NT is because God was among them. Now, demons continue to manifest themselves, for the Spirit of God is in His children. Consider the 70 disciples in Luke 10:17.

Now, if we look at Rev 12, verses 1-4 happened before Christ was born, as vs. 5 shows Jesus' ascension. Stars refer to angels in Revelation and other books of the Bible. We simply cannot base the timing of the fall of Satan and his angels on gray interpretation of this one passage. He was, afterall, the 'serpent of old' and certainly was in rebellion against God at that time. We must also consider the angels that have since preached another gospel to latter-day religious movements (Gal 1:8). Satan and his angels have been around since the creation of man. Even Santus believes the fallen angels procreated with women and begat giants. Those angels are incarcerated, the Bible says in 2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6. This fall was long before the NT.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

@JD

But, to point out a few things, if you believe the book of Enoch (which as you say you do.) then the reason for the fall of the angels was primarily because they lusted after the daughters of men. Coinciding with Revelation 12:7-10 this makes absolutely no sense.

However, in Revelation 12, it appears that Satan and his angels were cast from Heaven, because they had no longer any role there. It's like a fast food place that has cashiers, but then the place receives these machines that make the cashiers obsolete, and thus they are fired.

Now, as for me believing that a certain group of fallen angels mated with women, I may have found a third view that I intend to explore, and make a hub about.


perfect-pro 6 years ago

That's very true there is demon and there are fallen Angels for it is written in the Bible.Go to the book of revelation chapter 1 to 20.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Sanctus, I never have believed the reason for the fall of the angels was due to lusting after women. I believe the angels were fallen already, and a few of them decided, in their fallen state, to procreate with human women, resulting in their incarceration. Fallen angels are still doing their father's (the devil's) business even today. Satan is not yet bound, until the millennial reign comes to fruition.

I was also thinking more about the OT examples of demonic/Satanic activity ~ consider the two Pharaoh had oppose Moses and Aaron. They could perform many of the same signs and wonders God did through Moses, though not all of them (Ex 8:19). 2 Tim 3:8 states these two men were of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. I do NOT believe God gave Pharaoh's socercers/magicians that power. A castle divided against itself cannot stand (Luke 11:17, etc); therefore, even when Jesus cast out demons, He was not casting out spiritual 'servants' of God. To attribute Satan's or his angels' activities to being authored by God is treading the line of the unforgivable sin of blasphemy (Luke 12:10). God is the Sovereign LORD of good and evil, just as He is over all mankind ~ however, He will separate the light from the darkness; good from evil; sheep from goats; wheat from tares ~ at the appointed time (Mat 25:33; Mat 8:29; Heb 9:27).


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Yet, in the Book of Enoch it's made very clear that the Grigori (watchers) were first in Heaven, then they saw the women, and decided to go after them. And I believe there's one angel who more or less states that he'll take the blame.

(Note to DisappearingHead: I'm not actually condoning the use of the book of Enoch. I'm just pointing out the above since JD seems to believe in parts of it.)

btw, I'm now beginning to believe that the sons of God were not angels, but something else entirely. If you want (hope you don't mind this DisappearingHead) you can read my latest hub about it.

"He was not casting out spiritual 'servants' of God. To attribute Satan's or his angels' activities to being authored by God is treading the line of the unforgivable sin of blasphemy"

That's because at the time they weren't. Like I said earlier, in the OT there was a need for various adversary angels (satans, plural) But with the ministry of Christ there purpose died. They had no place in Heaven, and were cast out.

Also, the unforgivable sin is attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to that of the Devil, or saying that Jesus's power came from the Devil, and not the Holy Spirit


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Regardless of when and how Satan and his angels fell (or were cast out), the point is, the Adversary of God has been at work since the creation of mankind. God does not go against Himself. The Word is clear on this. The power exhibited by the sorcerers of Pharaoh was not God's power. Period.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

JD,

I'm going to have to address all your posts in one hit here.

Is 14:12 is a reference to a Canaanite myth. The morning star was the son of Shahar the goddess of dawn in the pantheon of Canaanite Ugarit. Satan has no mother.

If demons only manifested themselves because Jesus was walking about, then what about those who travelled miles to see Jesus because they believed they needed deliverance? Surely these 'demons manifested themselves' in Jesus' absence in order for the afflicted to realise they needed deliverance in the first place. In the OT was not God omnipresent in the world?

It is quite conceivable that God would grant power to the Egyptian sorcerers, if it proved a point that God was almighty and that compared to Him they had no significant power. He lets their 'power' go so far, enough to puff up their egos, and critically, by Moses snake swallowing theirs, it demonstrates that the God of Israel will be victorious from the outset. The fact is, wooden sticks cannot become snakes, and water cannot turn to blood; it breaks all physical, chemical and biological laws. Where does the snake's DNA, and material substance come from as they are not found in wood? Satan cannot breathe life into an innimate object either. Only God has the power to do these things.

Throughout the OT, God sends destroying angels to kill groups of people or bring disaster on the land. God never uses 'Satan', 'Satan' never sends his demons. It is always God. Even the lying spirit that 'possesed' prophets, and the decieving spirit that was given to the Assyrian army's leader to convince him of trouble at home, were all commissioned by God and willfully obedient to Him. Judaism is a monotheistic faith, and not dualist such as the influenential Zorastrian or pagan beliefs. Though I think it unlikely, even if Jesus cast out 'satans' or more correctly 'adversaries' from people, this still isn't a divided kingdom scenario. Just suppose God sent a decieving spirit to a person; if Jesus comes along and says, "Oi you, out!", He would be just exercising His authority to say "that's enough, the task for which you were sent by God is accomplished".

I agree with SV that blasphemy of the Holy spirit is to state that Jesus' work were of Satan, not the other way around.

I've been reading though a Jewish encyclopedia this weekend, and it is stated categorically, that God has no opposing force or spiritual entity that operates independent of Him. By the time Jesus entered the world, the pagan and Jewish societies had become so superstitious and lived in constant fear of demons. The Essenes became specialists in exorcisms apparently, and the Pharisees believed the best protection was to increase the ceremonial law and invetnted a whole load of prayers, blessings, rituals and other OCD methods to ward demons off. Now if someone believed they were demon possesed (because they had no brain chemistry diagnosis for such mental disoders as bi-polarism) and came to Jesus for deliverance, would He have said "No demons here sunshine"? They would have walked away unhealed saying "This Jesus can't heal me, He doesn't even believe in demons". Which is easier to say "Son your sins are forgiven" (another root belief for sickness) or "pick up your bed and walk"?

Which is easier to say "Demon come out" or "Son be healed of this pi-polar mental disorder affecting such and such Latin named part of your brain"?


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi SV. I'm looking for expanations between the 'apparent contradictions' between the OT and the NT on the subject of Satan and Demons. OT - no demons. NT - demons everywhere. OT - Satans are God's faithfull servant angels sent to test men's faith and oppose evil doers. NT - Satan is the personnification of evil opposed to God. OT - no fallen angels. Apocrypha and NT - angels 'cast out of Heaven'. You have offered a potential solution that of Satan and Angels loosing their jobs is worthy of consideration.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi perfect-pro. Did you know that for a very long time after it was writen, Revelation was considered apocryphal by the church. Many bishops, cardinals, whatever, considered that it was was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, the things it talks about are not revealed in the OT. It was the OT that was the only existing scripture at the time. So Revelation would have been completely new teaching, that to the Jews, would have been a contradiction of scripture.

The OT and NT should be in harmony, but on the surface, they are not. If we interpret the NT in the light of the OT, then maybe we will see alternative explanations to what we have come to believe in the NT.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

"Nevertheless, the things it talks about are not revealed in the OT."

I have to disagree. Read the book of Zechariah. A number of the things mentioned in the book of Revelation are mentioned in the book of Zechariah. Perhaps the most noticeable two being the four horsemen (Horsemen in Revelation, chariots in Zechariah) and the Whore of Babylon (Who in Zechariah has been just brought to Babylon/Shinar; while in Revelations has been there for a long time.)


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Well, you guys are given the will to believe whatever you want. You and Sanctus want to say " blasphemy of the Holy spirit is to state that Jesus' work were of Satan, not the other way around", but Jesus said there would be false visions, lying divinations, false signs and wonders (2 Thes 2:9; Mat 24:24; Mark 13:22). If they are lying and false, they are not of God. So, to attribute Satan's work to that of God is also blasphemy. Truth applies both ways (i.e. "faith without works is dead" [Jam 2:26]. Turn it around and it's also true: 'works without faith is dead').


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

SV I stand corrected.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

JD. I've never seen a vision, a divination, a sign or a wonder. Neither have I cast out a demon in His name or prophesied or done any miracles. Hopefully I shall be in the clear then.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Sounds like you haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit. But, that's a whole other topic...be blessed ~ God is in control and is faithful to teach those who earnestly seek.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

JD

May want to re-read the instances where Jesus mentions the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and take careful note of what the Pharisees say.

"He does not cast out demons, but by the power of Beezlebub"

Jesus's power came from the Holy Spirit, but the Pharisees were saying that his power came from the prince of the demons.

But, hey, if you want to believe that Satan and his demons can do what they dang will please, and that God is powerless to stop them, I can't stop you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

Sanctus, did I deny the truth you quoted from the Bible? "He does not cast out demons, but by the power of Beezlebub." They were attributing to Satan the power by which Jesus cast out demons. The point is, if evil was of God, if demons were the Lord's servants, Jesus would not cast them out. I realize you don't believe in hell, but He will cast all evil, Satan, his angels, demons, and Satan's children (John 8:44) into the Lake of Fire. This is not for the purpose of atonement for their sins. There is only one atonement for sins and that is through Christ Jesus. Those who reject Christ Jesus do not belong to Him and He doesn't even know them (Mat 7:23). Their names have been blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev 3:5).

I consider you a reasonably intelligent person, Sanctus, but if you don't understand this, you are being blinded by the 'god of this world' (2 Cor 4:4). If the 'world' were of the Lord, He would not have said His kingdom is NOT of this world (John 18:36), and He wouldn't have said in John 15:19, "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you." Also, James 4:4 states, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." If there's no more I can do to help with this topic, I pray the Lord confirm His word to both of you.


IntimatEvolution profile image

IntimatEvolution 6 years ago from Columbia, MO USA

You know the concept of the devil does not exist in the Torah. It is clearly a Christian conceptual idea, which has taken root and spread far and wide.

People (it seems) over the ages have built up the devil so much so, we essentially credit him as having as much power as God does. It appears that his abilities rival that of God's. I find that to be a little scary.

The example you gave about Job is exactly correct. God had control of Satan. Satan acted beneath God's supervision. Satan came to God. Satan sought out permission from God. I wish every Christian would read this hub. It is a great article for teaching the truth about "Satan."

Is there evil? Sure there is. Is it controlled by Lucifer? I doubt it. Human will causes the most profound reactions. How nice that humans have invented an evil man to use as an excuse for bad behavior.


livelonger profile image

livelonger 6 years ago from San Francisco

Thank you for pointing out that Jews do not believe in "the Devil" or "Satan" as God's adversary. In fact, Jews believe that such a concept flirts dangerously with polytheism. Rather, the concept of a good/evil God/Satan duality is a syncretic belief adopted from the pagan beliefs of the early non-Jewish converts to Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Devil/Lucifer, Hell, or any form of eternal punishment.


Baileybear 6 years ago

interesting read. I don't understand how if Satan was cast of heaven, why was he standing at God's right side? Also, as you pointed out, Satan seems to be under the command of God, so really bad things are of God.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Great Hub and great though provoking subject. I seen a few here that have used "their" version of the Bible and do not searching on their own other than what others have told them that they can search and what they can't. It amazes me how if someone challenges that version that they have been learned or taught by shear ROTE that they get all flustered and upset. There is a pattern to those people and the end product is just not the nicest. I have a hb about Satan, Demons annd Mental Illnesses too. The term Demon came from greek before it was translated and manipulated into what we have today. To have or know a demaon was a very GOOD thing then, not an evil reched things like today.

Thanks for the hub and will be looking at the part 2.

Voted up and useful.


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 6 years ago from BC, canada

Some people are so brainwashed into believing in Satan as a poorly created cherubium of God. cherubium do not even speak lol. love the hub, congrats!

The catholic bishops had final say over the work those magnificent translators compiled.

zech has to do with the rebuilding of the temple and there were indeed many adversaries against that. In the vision of zech 3 we do not 'see' satan as satan but a representation (as all visions are, just that, visions) of the adversity which accompanied the temple rebuilding.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places".. this scripture is so poorly interpreted by many satan fanatics that they fail to be able to put it in its proper perspective. We do not fight against flesh and blood, not hitting, not spitting, no name calling, no judging brothers, darkness represents blindness, rome is certainly a wicked spiritual force, but spirits mean attitudes as well. Rulers and world authorities are world forces of blindness, wickedness in heavenly places represents the church of which catholicism and the ecumenical movement would be good examples. Jesus rebuked PETER, i don't see why people don't understand jesus called peter a satan, adversary, because he stood in the way to opposed the cross of christ. We see satan as a metaphor so often in the NT. Christ saw satan (peter) fall from heaven, lol. Capernaum (luke 10) was exalted unto heaven yet not perceived as lucifer lol. The scriptures are not broken, brother, there is no picture in the OT that is not consistent in the NT dispensation of jesus christ. Angels mated with humans is preposterous and certainly shows an over active and incorrect imagination. Searching sons of god in the NT shows only people, again the scriptures are not broken, if paul says "to what angel did God ever call a son?" then we can be assured that the sons of god in the OT are people. I am so joyfully happy for you to have seen the light on this topic! Some people are teachable by the spirit of God! and NOT indoctrinated into ENOCHIAN and catholic fear based beliefs.

Stand fast! you walk on new and revelated ground!

judah needs new eyes and to get rid of the book of enoch.

and bailey, everything comes from God and it is all blessings, believe it or not. His main purpose is that all be saved, not stumble by looking around at others, but keeping their eyes on God. That is the proof.

intimate; the devil has one power above God, possession of people, taking away their free will.. this makes satan more powerful than God. This is insulting to God.

Out of all revelations and it's metaphoric, poetic, visionary depictions - the lake of fire is literally understood LOL. The devil and false prophet are - are is in italics and does not appear in the original texts. italics are words that are added. Lake of fire is best understood as Gods ghenna, the destruction place of sinful souls than cannot eat of the tree of life and have IMmortality. They are not are, they are, are not! but have been destroyed, abolished, ceased to exist and not heard about after they are become, are notted to the second DEATH. Sorry Judah but you need to take a back seat and start reading the BIBLE with fresh eyes. The book of enoch is what stopped God from revealing his word to you and you are becoming catholicisms loudest voice with your blended religion.

2 cor 4:4 the god of this world.. is yahweh chapter 3 and 4 should not be separated... therefore is a linking word.. 3:14 but their minds were blinded. 3:15 vail is upon their heart, 3:17 now the LORD IS THAT SPIRIT. Plain as day judah, plain as day.

I think i see an appeared head... ah the clarity.

Life is so much better without Satan, enjoy bro :0)

sorry head.. i just read this insulting and boastful bit of pride statement:

Sounds like you haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit. But, that's a whole other topic...be blessed ~ God is in control and is faithful to teach those who earnestly seek.

Judah the baptism in the HG is not a solve all, its an enabler yes. But quite plainly you are not earnestly seeking and you can't be taught new things, the vail is upon your heart. I seriously doubt you were BHG or were you told to just speak the words! just speak them. The principle of the BHG is to 'desire and wait' till ye be imbued from on high. We cannot call down a gift from God, we do not have the BHG upon salvation. It is a gift from God when God thinks we are ready. There is no forumula for receiving the BHG, but to desire and wait. I liked what sanctus said, and you misquoted scripture back at him. Selah

The blasphemy of the Holy spirit is to say that the works of the holy spirit are not of God. We don't have to quote that they are from satan, although satan as a metaphor i do not dislike here, do we quote the lords prayer? If a true miracle is of God we had better not diss it. Often we think that jesus did the miracles but he said, that which i see my father do, i do. Jesus copied what God wanted to do. God through his spirit did the miracles jesus was the vessel.

lol.. the lying spirit is a VISION. 1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I SAW the LORD SITTING ON HIS THRONE, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his RIGHT HAND and on his LEFT.

This is clearly a VISION. Jesus is not sitting in a comfy chair on the fleshly hands of God. Its a vision given. God does not have lying spirits hanging around and neither does he make them.

sorry for the length but i see you had some adversity goin on here lol. Hope it helps :0)

Great hub! nicely done!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

ochanan ~

"Some people are so brainwashed into believing in Satan as a poorly created cherubium of God"

I don't believe Satan is an angel, let alone a cherub.

"to what angel did God ever call a son?"

Misquoted (Heb 1:13) "But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET'?"

"The devil and false prophet are - ARE is in italics and does not appear in the original texts."

You want to discredit the Word because of the word 'are'?

"Lake of fire is best understood as Gods ghenna, the destruction place of sinful souls than cannot eat of the tree of life and have IMmortality"

Hmmm. The dead are raised to face the judgment seat. ALL the dead are raised (Rev 20:5, 12-15). Is this not immortality? Oh ~ you think the dead are raised and THEN annihilated...except, read Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; THEY have no rest day and night, THOSE WHO worship the beast and his image, and WHOEVER receives the mark of his name."

"Life is so much better without Satan, enjoy bro :0)"

It's interesting you believe that God, the Holy Ghost, is not mankind, but 'Satan' and 'demons' are? And thus you are one who fits 1 Tim 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" AND 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

I find it funny that Jesus was the one who came to spread the message of Love and yet the religious like JD will invariably take Paul's message over Jesus. Funny is not in the laughing but more of the weird state. If you go by Paul's words then you can't possibly be a Christian because you aren't even listening or reading what Jesus said at all.

What needs to be said is that Jesus NEVER wrote anything. Everythng is second hand--only truth to those who wrote the words they experienced--not for everyone o another's experience or truth.

Why is there only 4 people who wrote Jesus's words when there were thousands of men who could write about him. If he was so well known then they would have had many, many more accounts and written things about him.

I also find it funny that those like JD will spout off singular Bible verses and not the whole paragraph as to what and whom Jesus was reported as saying. Most times it is completely different in the meaning of that one sentence.

What was the purpose of adding those numbers to the single sentences? I bet it wasn't to be done as it is done today.


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 6 years ago

I add these verses. (just a few) OT devils and familiar spirits

Lev 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new [gods that] came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

2Ch 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits,

Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits

1Sa 28:3...... And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits,

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Anything contrary to God is an ADVERSARY a devil satan, evil spirt demon etc.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Wow HOO---Goats are Devil's hmmmm. I guess they would be if you stood in front of them and between them and their food or one was going to kill them for a sacrifice:

Leviticus 17:5-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

" 5so that the sons of Israel do bring in their sacrifices which they are sacrificing on the face of the field, yea, they have brought them in to Jehovah, unto the opening of the tent of meeting, unto the priest, and they have sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offerings to Jehovah with them.

6`And the priest hath sprinkled the blood upon the altar of Jehovah, at the opening of the tent of meeting, and hath made perfume with the fat for sweet fragrance to Jehovah;

7and they sacrifice not any more their sacrifices to goats after which they are going a-whoring; a statute age-during is this to them, to their generations.

8`And unto them thou sayest: Any man of the house of Israel, or of the sojourners, who sojourneth in your midst, who causeth burnt-offering or sacrifice to ascend, "

Deuteronomy 32:15-20 (Young's Literal Translation)

15And Jeshurun waxeth fat, and doth kick: Thou hast been fat -- thou hast been thick, Thou hast been covered. And he leaveth God who made him, And dishonoureth the Rock of his salvation.

16They make Him zealous with strangers, With abominations they make Him angry.

17They sacrifice to demons -- no god! Gods they have not known -- New ones -- from the vicinity they came; Not feared them have your fathers!

18The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee.

19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth -- For the provocation of His sons and His daughters.

20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness.

Isn't it strange that in one book they are goats and the next devils? Which are they?

Remember in the Greek, from wence they came first Deamons were GOOD things to have around you. Christianity got it and wow, it gets changed to something evil.

Anything UNKNOWN is Evil by Christian standards.


Castlepaloma profile image

Castlepaloma 6 years ago from Saskatchewan, Canada

I support your kinder approach to Satan and Christianity. I believe in more kindness in the world than more Politic and Religion

Christian fundamentals found their power has gone well hand and hand along with capitalism and fear has work for them for so long. The fundamentalist will continue often and loud, it will loose it power and belief.

People’s collective conscious will concur fears; already people are more spiritually rather than more religious and all will slowly moving toward a spiritual age

Your kindness is better than the fundies


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 6 years ago from BC, canada

whew i am so glad i do not believe in the book of enoch.

-immortality is only given after one eats of the tree of life.

-yes i do want to dispute the word are.

-the smoke of their torment...rev 14:10 shall drink.. future tense... what's the time line on this? They are on EARTH! forever and ever is not always forever and ever and often has a cessation date. AS we KNOW the EARTH will pass away.. oooops not forever and ever after all eh judah.. perhaps you should read more.

as for falling from the faith, i'm afraid your regurgitated bile is far more blended religion than mine ever will be.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Thanks IE for your comments. Yes this is my point. In Judaism, a satan could be any random angel that God sends to oppose someone. Today we have inflated Satan to be the cause of every evil event, yet God sent His destroying angel against the Egyptians and Assyrians. If these things happened today, who would the church blame for it?


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Livelonger. This is exactly what I have found on numerous Jewish websites. Satan as a central evil character just disappears. I have also found a couple comentaries by Jewish theologians that the talking snake in Genesis was Eve having an inner conversation with here inner evil inclination or yetzer hara. It put s a completely different spin on how we interpret evil.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Baileybear. There is a little discussed verse in scripture Isaiah 45:7 where God states that He creates light and darkness, peace and evil, though modern translatinos omit the evil, and substiture something more mild. I have a Jewish OT which gives me the word 'evil'. This agrees with the idea of angels can be sent as satans by God to oppose men, and that God sent destrying angels to kill the Egyptians and Assyrian armies.

However, this does not mean that God is some manevalent being, rather He is in control of everything. Besides which, according to Judaism, everyone has an inner yetzer hara, or evil inclination. So by far, the evil in the world is the result of people choosing to do evil. God may send an angel to put a stop to this, and sometimes that might mean that the evil people have their lives cut short.


Baileybear 6 years ago

It seems a lot of "modern" christians don't believe in hell, satan, demons etc. Christianity continues to evolve


Wesman Todd Shaw profile image

Wesman Todd Shaw 6 years ago from Kaufman, Texas

Great hub!


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

No need to apologise Brotheryochanen for the length of your comment here, and they are much appreciated.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Baileybear, I don't think Christianity is evolving, so much as people are throwing off the shackles of ignorance and false doctrine from the church. As people study the scriptures for themselves, we have a promise the Father Himself will teach us.

John 6:44-45 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

I hope you know that Jesus is the Father (His very image), DH (Is 9:6; John 14:9). Jesus said, in John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself." Not ALL men will respond to that drawing. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, for He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), but those who reject Him nullify that grace (Gal 2:21; Rom 11; Rev 3:5).


Jerami profile image

Jerami 6 years ago from Houston tx

@ Judah's Daughter

With all ddue respect ... this is a serious question.

If we accept the word of Jesus as true ? Maybe we should ask ourself, Did Jesus say that he was going to attempt to draw all men unto him self or did he say that he was going to do so!

NOW ? because some Human being says something else whether slightly different or grossly so .. are we then supposed to change the words of Jesus to mean something other than what he said?

And if it is acceptable ? Sometimes and not others, how does anyone know when to do so?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

Disappearinghead.

Man wants to be very logistical. Because someone placed the word NEW TESTAMENT in front of Gospels it does not mean it that time started New Covenant. New Covenant started later after resurrection. Jesus was under His ministry in Abrahamic Covenant, which is part of we call it Old. Then demons were in existence in Jesus ministry of Old Covenant.

Thanks DH for your work.

This is just my thoughts.

I am comfortable with placement of NT, where it is, but one must understand it.

If I may add. We have three kind of heavens. One is our atmosphere, perhaps including our solar system. Second is our universe. The third is planet where God lives. The word HaShamaim is plural in Gen 1:1. Our earth and our system was contaminated and principality of power are part of this earth and first heaven.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

This is where text belongs to earth and first heaven.

Eph 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

It does not apply to entire universe or third heaven.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Jeus said he brought the New Covanant, not after his ressurection. It was before when he told everone that he didn't come to bring Peace. Get that He DID NOT come to bring PEACE. Jesus also said tht he put the laws in the minds and hearts of e veryone. He also did not say that everyone is a sinner.

Eace version of the Bible is slightly different. They will be because there really isn't a real good translation from the Hebrew language. Some words were not able to be translated so the people who did so gave it their best definition and of course it was to their language and cutlure set, not the one that the words were originally meant.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

@Vladimir, Where did Jesus ever say not to be logical? Where did God ever say that? Religious Doctrine says to keep the parishioners and the clergy in the DARK at -all costs.

God nor Jesus ever said it.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi JD. Why do you ask? My hubs should have presented you with a good idea of where I am.

No man comes unless the Father draws them and Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Him. How and when do you suppose these statements are put into action? How does Jesus draw those who lived and died before He came into the World? How does Jesus draw those that have never heard His name such as those living under Islam, or those living in obscure viallges in India or the South American Jungle? How does Jesus draw those who lived in Medeval Europe who never heard the gospel from the totalitarian oppresive Catholic Church?

It's easy for you to say that Jesus will draw all men unto Him when you are only considering the 1st Century before the abuses of the church came into being, or if you are considering 21st Century Western civilisation with access to the information superhighway.

Jesus does not say when He will draw all men to Him. He only says that after He has been lifted up, after He has made the sacrifice. For all we know He may may not draw all men until the resurection. When the Sadducees questioned the resurection, Jesus stated that with regards to the patriarchs, His Father was God of the living. So as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 1 Cor 15:21-22. So when ALL are made alive, what better opportunity to draw all men unto Himself? I would say that Christ's grace extends beyond the 2% that you believe will be saved.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Good points Jerami. We all read the same scriptures, but not all have the same interpretations. Our interpretations will largely depend on our particular church or non-church culture was have inherited, and almost certainly by the doctrines we have been spoonfed.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Vladimir. I appreciate your comments. Yes Jesus instigated a New Covenant, but this does not invalidate 4000 years of Jewish culture, thought and understanding either. There is much to learn from Judaism as long as we appreciate that hardness has happened to Israel until the gentile nations have come into God Rom 11:25-27.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Vladimir. brotheryochanan has given a good account of this scripture earlier in the comments above.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi LG.

True, many of of English translations cannot be trusted because the translators put in their own interpretation for us "in order to give us a better sense of what the writer was saying". Nonsense. I have now abandoned my 'Spirit Filled Life Bible' my 'New Living Translation' and I only keep the 'NIV' for the convienience of a natural English flowing read, but it can't be used for serious study.

I came on this example the other day. Isaiah 28:1-2. The Jewish Tanach says that God is speaking against Ephraim, but the NLT says Samaria. The Tanach says God has a mighty one as a storm of hail and a tempest of destruction that casts to the Earth with violence. But the NLT has something very lame, saying the God will send the Assyrian army against Samaria. So which is it? A destroying angel of the Lord (just like the one that came upon Egypt), or a human army? Looks like the NLT have told us what to think here. Why? Perhaps a destroying angel OF THE LORD casting down to the Earth in violence sounds too much like the Lucifer myth?


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

There are a few hubs here that have the meanings of certain hebrew words and some of those do not match up with that of the newer bibles at all. If one reads some of the older--pre-King James (also read up on how he changed things for his own purpose) you will begin to see the changes and how the church used that bible as a control piece. At. Augustines also did a number with the scriptures too and one might want to look into that account.

The main agenda of Rome was to use the church and make a doctrine that would keep people giving to Roman and worshipping that nation period. Why do you think they wanted Jesus to die for all in the first place--it wasn't what you have been spoonfed to believe. Rome needed a martyr.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

Lady G. logistical I meant to be... "literarist". Bible said that letter kills but spirit gives the life. They are those who are sifting the mosquitoes and camels will pass.

Perhaps I should use different wording.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

again to LG.

Of course Yeshua taught and established New Covenant, but it was ratified after resurrection when after He said: It is finished (OT) and when He brought His blood to Father then New Covenant became effective.

DH, "No man comes unless the Father draws them and Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Him".

True, but when some is called it does not mean all will come. Many are called and not all are elected. Elected means who come to Him by faith through His grace. All were called also means Jesus died for all but not all receive. God is not respecter of the persons.

Lord and we wanted all should be saved but not all will.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

@Vladimir, so you said one thing and meant another--just like in the Bible hmmmm.........

also when he said it is finished how do we know what he was talking about if he didn't die at all. Perhaps you should read some of Richardspeaks hubs too.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello LG. Of course Jesus died. This is why He came for. But "It is finish" means that He ended Old Testament since he fulfilled it. Nobody could before or after. Since He never broke the law He would able to offer better one based on better promises.

Before Jesus was teaching and setting The New Covenant. But it is like one is elected officials (like president) and he become active and in operation only in January 1st.

I hope you got my point.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

@JD, The origin of Deamon / Demon is Greek. The orginal deamons were intelligent, sensible guardian spirits. In the Bible and taught by religions they are now malicious, deviant, horrible creatures here to take your soul.

You can read more on them and how they are accused for many mental illnesses when in fact they are not.

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Truth-About-Demons-and...


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

@Vladimir. Here is a quote from someone who has done extensive reasearch into all that and I will post the link at the bottom for you to go read for yourself, and others too.

"Raisings and resurrections could only be performed by the High Priest or by the Father of the Community. The High Priest at that time was Joseph Caiaphas (the very man who condemned Jesus), therefore the raising had to be performed by the patriarchal Father. There are Gospel accounts of Jesus talking to the Father from the cross, culminating in "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" - and the appointed Father of the day was the Magian apostle Simon Zelotes.

During that Friday afternoon when Jesus was on the Cross, there was a forward time change, and the Gospels explain that the land fell into darkness for three hours. The Hebrew lunarists made their change during the daytime, but the Nazarene solarists did not make their change until midnight. This explains why, according to the Gospel of Mark (which relates to lunar time), Jesus was crucified at the third hour, but in John (which uses solar time) he was crucified at the sixth hour.

On that evening the Hebrews began their Sabbath at the old nine o'clock, but the Essenes and Magians still had three hours to go before their Sabbath. During those extra three hours they were able to work with Jesus while others were not allowed to undertake any physical activity. It was for this reason that the women were so astonished when they found the tomb-stone moved at daybreak on the Sunday - not because it was moved, but because it had been moved on the Sabbath."

http://www.graal.co.uk/bloodlinelecture.html


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

LG. I do not have time to argue with you. I was talking about finishing Old Covenant.

Regarding of resurrection the Sabbath was over at sunset of last day (Saturday). The women were astonished because 1. the stone was very heavy, 2. it had seal of Roman Pilate, breaking it had the death penalty. There are many reasons but those are main two. Many come to confusion of issues, because studying of many un-biblical opinions.

Demons came from pre-Adamic race. Demons are neither fallen angels nor created by God. That record was hidden in the mystery of Tree knowledge good and evil.


Maleficus Luminos profile image

Maleficus Luminos 6 years ago from Minneapolis

I would like to point you towards nephilim and the book of enoch. I may be wrong but i beleive in enoch it says the souls of the nephilim became what we consider to be "demons" now.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

@Vladimir, Then don't argue with me. If you cannot read what I post and then tell me that we are arguing then that is YOUR problem. Read what I post and stop your arguing. Besides I didn't think that I was arguing in the first place. I thought it was a discussion. I am not the one who is getting upset.


Twenty One Days 6 years ago

Brilliant and well written/explained Kev. (am off to part 2)


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 6 years ago from HubPages, FB

God bless you Mrs. Lady Guinevere.


Christina A profile image

Christina A 6 years ago from Australia

DH - really interesting hub, and it has clearly sparked some rigorous discussion! I think the interplay between the satan and God in the book of Job is really interesting - both from the power dynamic between them, and how the conversation begins. The satan doesn't say he has been going to and fro and noticed Job. God almost seems to boast saying - hey have you seen Job? This raises so many questions about God and evil, the satan.... I do like the way you have explored this, and I will look forward to reading more of your hubs.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Hi Maleficus Luminos, the Book of Enoch is apocryphal and likely to have been written in about the 2nd century from ideas and ubiblical myths that were in the national conciousness. Just because a text to us is very old and has some biblical sounding ideas, does not make it the word of God. I could write something very simialr today from my own imagination and in 2200 years another group of people might decide to form doctrines from it, but then that would be just silly wouldn't it.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Thanks TOD. Coming from you that's quite an acolade.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK Author

Thanks Christina. The intention here was to encourage people to think about the origins of satan and to show that their beliefs are not necessarily supported by the OT. I just don't think the church should abandon 4000years of Jewish thought and wisdom just because it contradicts church doctrines that were unknown to the apostles.


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 5 years ago from BC, canada

I liked what you mentioned about how satan cannot operate under his own free will but isn't that how satan supposedly became a fallen angel - through his free will?

Satan apparently has less free will now than he did before.

If we look at how close a reign God has on satan we see the great fallacy that the satan entity is become.

Nice unmasking job, bro


backfromthedead 4 years ago

seeing how i have been dead 3 times i have change my beliefs on god and satan base on what saw ,felt,when i was dead and that is there is no heaven no hell NO GOD NO SATAN yes there was others there but none of them almighty powerful or had any power over anything of course the only i can prove to you what i say to you is ask you to die and see for yourself so i let you believe what you want but when we meet on the otherside i am going to say see i told you so


ananceleste profile image

ananceleste 4 years ago from California

Wow! very intense! As you can see. There are many people that have a very similar understanding and others,well you know. People need to believe that underneath it all they are not responsible of their own sin. They need a puppeteer. I agree with you in alot of things. You have certainly done your homework. the only thing that I differ is, I find hard to believe that you have never experienced evil. I had my share of near death experiences,and to be honest I dont recall heaven or hell.

But to say that there are no forces, outside of this phisical realm that are truly evil would be a lie in my part. I have seen it, felt it. I am not a fanatic, but a student. Objectively trying to find the truth even though, sometimes I regret the search and the findings. Superb work. take care.


An AYM 3 years ago

I found this to be a fun and interesting read.


anonymous 3 years ago

The Egyptian Set or Seth may have been the earliest written version of the Devil. According to Michael Aquino Satan and Set are one and the same entity. Aquino formed the Temple of Set. The Persian Angra-mainyu or Ahriman of Zoroastrianism is said to have created diseases snakes scorpions mosquitoes intense cold intense heat and death. Hes a cruel sadistic fiend. The Hebrew Satan in Job resembles Ahriman in inflicting physical torture and killing whereas Satan in the New Testament is better known as liar tempter and deceiver. Both Ahriman and Satan hav helpers or Ahrimans or demons or fallen angels or evil spirits. Some believe the Devil and demons are able to possess the minds and bodies of people. Some blame Satan for all evil both natural evil and moral evil. Satan or the Devil and demons are used to explain the existence of evil and suffering in the world and to absolve God from having a cruel screwed up world. In novels and movies the Devil and his minions are often triumphant while God is weak or absent. Rosemarys Baby The Exorcist Beyond the Door The Devils Rain and Exorcist3-Legion are some examples. Author Jeffrey Burton Russell has written sveral books about the Devil. The prevalnce of evil and suffering in the world with cancer malaria ebola mass starvation predation tooth decay centipedes jellyfish mosquitoes tapeworms birth defects human ugliness and th loneliness that goes with it mental illness human cruelty selfishnss malice stupidity grievous accidents crimes wars genocides and alienation all make the world the hellhole that it is. Satan th Devil rules this screwed up world. A loving God does not. The world is a horror movie. Thousands to millions of years of suffering death extinctions and evils. Every kind of horror and cruelty imaginable is allowed to go on ad nauseam ad infinitum. Im deeply pessimistic.


Peter 3 years ago

Cpl Pyron's youtube video is the real deal.

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