The Number One Reason to Reconsider Your Belief in Eternal Hell

It has come to my attention that most Christians are not interested in sound reasons for why their eternal hell fire doctrine is unscriptural. Believe me, I am not ignorant of this. They are quite comfortable believing that while their god insists they love their enemies, god will torture all of his enemies for all eternity. Or is it Satan that will torture god's enemies? Or perhaps god made hell for Satan and his angels and accidentally wrote in his eternal constitution that whoever is deceived by Satan must also go to hell for eternity? It is unclear what most of them believe because their masters (theologians) have not agreed with one another on why eternal hell must be fair. But hellers are consistent only in that sin must be punished eternally. . . . . ., unless they somehow learn of christ and his sacrifice through their mysterious and unscriptural free will. I will start by giving the top reasons of a Gary Cottongim from his webpage "Hell, Fact or Fable". I have pirated these words because they cover much of what I and many other universalists have already shown. I also use his words to show these hell believing nitwits on Hubpages that Ray Smith of bible-truths.com is not the only possible source for this most basic scriptural truth. That would be the ultimate salvation of all mankind and the ridiculously unscriptural notion of eternal hell. While I like Gary's top ten list, he leaves out one very important reason for the lie of heller theology. But no offense Gary. I think you did an admiral job. But by leaving out my number one reason to reconsider this abomination of the spirit, you are surfing on a wave of panziness. Just kidding, you're alright with me. So everybody make sure and read my all important reason to reconsider your belief in that eternal hell crap.

TOP TEN REASONS TO RECONSIDER

YOUR BELIEF IN AN ETERNAL HELL

10. No mention of this doctrine can be found anywhere in the first five books of the Old Testament, or the Torah, the Law of Moses. In Deuteronomy 28, for example, the nation of Israel is given a list of warnings and curses in the event of their disobedience, yet not one of them involves this notion of eternal punishment in hell. If it were true, don’t you think God should have warned them? (see Amos 3:7)

9. Likewise, God commissioned the apostle Paul to deliver the gospel (good news) to the Gentile nations, but Paul never once mentioned this concept of “hell” anywhere in his epistles. Question: If it was Paul’s responsibility to warn the Gentile nations of this dread prospect, then why didn’t he? [1]

8. Several noted historians and scholars have testified [2] that the whole thing was contrived as an attempt to discourage criminal activity among the masses. Take a good honest look around you. Does it appear to be working?

7. Smith’s Bible Dictionary tells us (page 119) that the word “hell” was unfortunately used by the (KJV) translators to represent the Hebrew word Sheol [3], which is found in the Old Testament a total of 65 times, and would have been better represented exclusively by “the grave” or “the pit.” For whatever reason, this word is rendered by the English word “grave” a total of 31 times, by the word “hell” a total of 31 times, and by the word “pit” a total of 3 times. Why do you suppose all of the inconsistencies?

6. Words like “hell” and “damn” have completely different meanings today than they once had. Anyone with a good dictionary can find that this is true. Look up the word “hell” in your dictionary and you will soon learn that this word was derived from the Old English/Old High German word helan, which means to conceal. Likewise, the word “damn” came from the Latin word damnare, or damnum, and was strictly a legal term meaning a loss, damage, or fine. Nothing even remotely resembling eternal punishment in fire is associated with these words in their original sense.

NOTE: An excellent example of how a word can quickly take on new meaning can be seen with the word “gay,” which formerly meant (exclusively) to “be happy, or merry.” It has only been within the past 30 years or so that this word has become associated with homosexuals and homosexual activity. Do you see how someone today could easily be mislead while reading a pre-1970’s book containing a statement about a man being gay?

5. The Greek word “apoleia,” which has been rendered several times by the English word “destruction” (Example: “broad is the way that leads to destruction – Matthew 7:13), in its original sense meant “to suffer loss, or ruin” and never implied eternal damnation. Quite to the contrary, for example,I Corinthians 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved!” [Please note that this idea of “loss” is consistent with the (original) Latin word damnare/damnum]

4. The Hebrew word “olam,” as well as the Greek word “aion,” once spoke exclusively of an indeterminate period of time, or an eon (age). Just as in the case of our previous example with the word “gay,” as time went by, these words also began to take on new meanings; in this case, the concept of endlessness, or eternity. Hence, the concept of “age-abiding” punishment (for the purpose of correction) was changed to mean “everlasting” punishment (without remedy). And this was done (admittedly!) as an attempt to keep the masses in fearful subjection to authority [2].

NOTE: By exerting a little study time in the Scriptures, it can easily be proven that the Hebrew word olam, as well as the Greek word aion, cannot represent the concept of endlessness, or God’s written word contradicts itself. [Be sure to read Five Questions Your Fundamentalist Pastor Will Not Be Able To Answer]

3. According to orthodox Christianity, the “lake of fire” is supposed to be the final abode of the wicked where there will be an eternity (without remedy) of weeping and gnashing of teeth. In Revelation 21:4, however, we are clearly told that “God shall wipe away ALL tears from their eyes!” Likewise, in Revelation 20:14 this lake of fire is also referred to as the “second death.” But once again, God’s precious word refutes the finality of this death: “And there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4) The apostle Paul also testifies of this truth: “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (I Corinthians 15:26) Whom will you choose to believe: God’s precious Word, or the misleading doctrines that are prevalent within orthodox Christianity? [Choose this day whom you will serve – Joshua 24:15]

2. God’s stated will for humanity is clear: “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (I Timothy 2:3,4) God also tells us that He is working all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Ephesians 1:11) And the prophet Isaiah makes it perfectly clear that [God’s] counsel shall stand, and [He] will do (or perform) ALL [His] pleasure! (Isaiah 46:10) Once again, whom are you going to believe?

And the number one reason to reconsider your belief in an eternal hell:

1.a) GOD IS LOVE! (I John 4:8) Like any good parent who loves their children, discipline is always for the purpose of correction. If your children got out of line, would you lock them up in your basement and torture them unmercifully for sadistic reasons? Of course not! Those who teach that our loving heavenly Father will do so do not know the heart of God. [4] Likewise, it would be the height of hypocrisy for God to command us to love and to forgive our enemies, while at the same time unmercifully torturing His enemies for all eternity.

1.b) LOVE NEVER FAILS! (I Corinthians 13:8) If just one precious soul were to perish apart from the love of God, then that would mean that either a) God doesn’t love that individual, or b) that somehow God’s love has failed in that particular instance. And I can assure you that it is a tragic error to believe that the Love of God will fail! For God IS Love, and Love NEVER fails!

Well, there you have it folks. Those are Gary Cottingin's reasons to reconsider belief in eternal hell. Now, for my number one reason. What could it be? I've written hub after hub showing that the word hell is unscriptural, eternity and forever are unscriptural, I even showed what Revelation has to say about the synagoges of Satan flooding the land. But none of those are my number one reason. Those are just proof of Who and What God Is. So my number one reason to reconsider. . . . .excuse me, absolutely throw this doctrine into the sewer is:

Only a spiritual mooron would believe such a thing. Look folks, God is Love. End of discussion. What's that? Not enough? Why am I not surprised? Of course that's not enough for hellers. After all, sin must be punished, right? And Christ did pay the ultimate sacrifice, right? But just for those who accept him during their physical lives? The scriptures never speak of salvation being contingent on acceptance during one's physical life. But what's new? Just when did assumption become the god of biblical interpretation? Probably when the wolves moved in after Paul's departure. But I don't even need to mention one scripture to prove my point. Eternal hell fire is a spiritually stupid doctrine of belief. I wouldn't burn someone forever. I wouldn't even burn someone for a minute. How much better and more merciful am I than the god of christiandom? Apparently, the exponential numbers wouldn't fit on this webpage.That's how much more merciful I am than the god of christiandom. But I have news for you. You hell believers are also that much more merciful than your god. In fact, even Hitler would have been exponentially more merciful than your pitiful god of torture. What? You don't believe me? Just imagine Hitler could burn his most hated Jew alive for an indeterminate amount of time. How long do you think he would have done it for? A day? A week? A year?

I say no more than thirty seconds. And this is no ordinary Jew. This Jew just led an entire olympic team to victory in every category over his entire German team. This Jew had all of the trains stopped and freed all of the Jews headed for concentration camps. This Jew did all of the things that Bugs Bunny, The Three Stooges (they were Jewish), Tarzan, Indiana Jones, and every other character in the movies did to Hitler and the Nazis. In other words, Hitler would be stark raving pissed at this Jew. And I don't think he would burn him alive in a special chamber where pain is experienced without death, for more than 30 seconds. See what I mean about your god? You are spiritually stupid if you believe in such a monster.

But then I get some reply saying something like "when we make god in our image blah, blah de blah". Or, God does not think as man. Well dahh. God thinks on a level infinitely higher than man. And if you think that such a level would make eternal torment acceptable, this shows how brain washed you have become through intensive indoctrination. It's dumb, stupid, unimaginably moronic. Why haven't I mentioned the evil in one's indoctrinated heart? Because hellers just don't realize the level of evil they have been indoctrinated into. So I just call them spiritually dumb.

But some will protest my description. Who am I to call someone dumb? After all, I'm no rocket scientist myself. But I bet there are some rocket scientists who do in fact believe in eternal hell fire. There are big university professors that believe in hell fire. People with innovative minds that have contributed great knowledge to this world: Some of them believe in eternal hell fire. So what does this prove? Nothing!! I'm talking about spiritual stupidity. And spiritual things come only from God. If God plans for you to be deceived, you will be deceived. If God wants someone with a 75 IQ to learn His truths, he will learn those truths. No, I'm not talking about myself here. My IQ is at least 5 points higher. I'm just pointing out how dumb people can be even though they may have vast knowledge. And it's these same smart and deceived people who are leading these synagogues of deception. They are the blind leading the blind. But keep in mind, I am only talking about the doctrine of eternal torment. I'm not talking about the numerous other silly and unscriptural doctrines of christiandom. I'll leave those alone and worry about my own study. But I challenge anybody to show why belief in some dungeon of immortal fiery hell is not an incredibly stupid belief.

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    I was just reading about a discussion someone was having with a christian concerning god's unfair practice of sending people to hell when they never heard the gospel. To make it short, this person's answer was...


Comments 76 comments

babylon_is_fallen 7 years ago

Well said.


Tom Cornett profile image

Tom Cornett 7 years ago from Ohio

Great hub....they just can't seem to let go of the "eternal torment" thing. It is exhausting to listen to their blab about hell fire and damnation.....but that silly fear sure keeps that 10 percent rolling in!


adejosh09 profile image

adejosh09 7 years ago

you have giving good reasons in a very bad manner. I followed you here from another hub, where you were having a brawl with another hubber. I do NOT believe in HELL myself, but i teach it more gently so as to change people not to win arguments. I like you, but you need attitudinal change, alright bro.


Hell N0 7 years ago Author

Ade, there is a time to teach gently and a time to take out the trash. The hell doctine goes with the latter. I have written several hubs showing specifically what the scriptures teach concerning the ultimate salvation of all. Hellers deny the truths I've shown. Instead they lend support to the Kirk Camerans and John Hagees who "out of love" terrify the the unholy crap out of others with lies. I don't try to win arguments. I destroy this false doctrine of devils. Of course many will be offended. So be it. I'm offended that they have billions of fellow humans burning in some fabled hell for all eternity. Hell isn't just an unscriptural doctrine. It's spiritual pornography hurled from the very bowels of the devil himself. I would love to gently set someone right with the truth, who is absolutely freightened by this most evil and dispicable snake urin teaching. But here on hubpages we have very few who are seeking the truths of God. Instead, they twist and contradict sciptures so that they support traditional heller theology. And they are so self righteous because they find it acceptable to believe in their own salvation while others are tortured eternally. There is even one hubber that uses the scripture about "God will wipe away all of our tears" to mean that the saved will no longer care that countless family and friends are burning in hell. That is Sickology 101. But please, send me people that are in turmoil over this hell teaching and I'll teach them gently. But with these hellers? I'll spike the ball right in their face.


Hoff 6 years ago

"It's spiritual pornography hurled from the very bowels of the devil himself."

Lawl tell me about it.


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

Well Haffa, when the devil sits down on his throne to have a bowel movement, he conjures up falce images of countless billions being burned alive eternally because they were not wise enough to question their parent's non or wrong belief. So the devil pokes and prods these images until he gets aroused and drops a load onto every self righteous maniac that thinks he/she is deserving of eternal bliss while others receive eternal Dis. None of what I just wrote is scriptural but it must be written in some book somewhere. Because the proof of its' manefistation is found in the Chronicals of Carrie Bradshaw (excuse me),or actually I think she changed her name to Judah's Carrie. Peace out!!


Hoff 6 years ago

Dude you made my day. xD Eternal dis, haha.

@ Carrie crack- In normal circumstances, I'd say that you're being rather mean even if it's a joke... But then, I saw her in action in your earlier hubs. :l

Also noticed a load of unapproved comments of yours to a few of her hubs. I'm quite curious to see what you typed tbh. =/


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

If you were to put Carrie's spiritual understanding inside the head of a pigeon:

It wouldn't be able to fly.


thad 6 years ago

hell-no I love your hubs and I thank you for letting people know the true nature of God. Also I've been to one of Carrie's hubs and now I truly know what it looks like when God blinds someone. I asked questions that she never answered and she actually said that some of the things I said were false and not n the bible! Just keep doing what God has you doing and yes Carrie it is God's will! I said that because I know she will read it. With love, Thaddeus Cole


6 years ago

I just stumbled across this page while searching google for a recap on what Christian doctrine says about Heaven and Hell.

I totally understand all your point and I have thought them myself so many time, ESPECIALLY 1.a. I mean seriously, no matter how bad things get, God can always fix them if He wants, so what would be the point of torturing humans for ever if God could just show them what they need to be shown to become changed? That is unless they are just a truly evil being -- but again, that is something that does not make sense. There is just so much that does not make sense.

I will point out that the whole basis for all these arguments about all of theology and religion are actually not even based on anything scientific, that is they don't have testable evidence. Most this stuff is based on a horrible mix of assumptions, altered stories over time, misinterpretations, misunderstanding, and just plain old ignorance. I don't even know why people still talk about it...

anyway I am one of those spiritually stupid and brainwashed people because, even though I have excellent logic and reason, and have accomplished some good things in my life, I am still afraid of God and going to an eternal hell or punishment or whatever. I really don't know why, but its like, the concept of hell is so powerful on people that they just cant shake it no matter how much they grow up.

sadness.


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

You know, the doctrine of an afterlife of torture has been taught since man learned to speak. The leaders of times past have felt that man must be in a constant state of fear to stay in line. The doctrine was taught by the ancient Egyptians and Greeks. Today the Quaran seems to teach it without question (Read my hub, "Escape From Hellcatraz). The doctrine sort of found its way into our bibles but not really. Our bibles are emphatic that all will be saved, but the words hell and eternal continue to be well known mistranslations. So in other words, you can continue to fear this pagan teaching but do not base that fear on the holy scriptures. The holy scriptures have lots of verifiable truth but yes, without the gift of faith, you will never believe any of it. I do not not claim to know a whole lot about anything. However, I know for 100% certainty, that the teaching of eternal torment is a lie and I have no fear of it.


6 years ago

hey, that's interesting about the history of this hell doctrine... and I am very skeptical of a lot of spiritual type stuff, but I do have some faith, if only, in God alone.

Literally and logically speaking, there is no way that you can know anything with 100% certainty. I'm not arguing for or against this hub's topic, I'm just saying that anything is possible.

And relating to this hell topic, what do you make of those testimonies of people who have gone to hell?

Here is a link to a recent story I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMry2ehb4hA

or the text version: http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/Jennif...

There are others, like, "23 minutes in hell" and I can't think of any others...

I suppose it does make sense that God would punish humans in some kind of serious manner, because life is serious, but I do have mixed thoughts about that punishment being that which is described in the personal hell testimonies I linked above.

D


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

Well, I hate to answer a question with a question, but:

What do you make of all of those alien sightings and abductions, or bigfoot, or the numerous other things that people say they saw but most likely didn't? Never mind that the bible says there is no thought in death. Never mind that the ressurection has to take place before people live again, because that is just the bible. But the real question is:

Why don't any of those ridiculous stories about seeing and experiencing hell have anything in common? Why isn't hell the same for everybody? And why do so many people have these different experiences in the first place? I believe Satan is the author of such confusion. But why can't Satan cause these experiences to all be the same so that we will have a reason to fear them? Because God controls Satan like a puppet and won't let him deceive the masses in a rational manner.

By the way, several of those people lie. The seven youths are lying and the 23 minutes guy is lying. Their stories are full of holes.


6 years ago

Sorry for the delayed reply. I just feel like every time I get into a discussion about this stuff, people get off track so quickly since there are so many different things one can choose to believe about it all.

I will say that a lot of those Hell stories actually do have a lot in common. There are always people being horrifically tortured by demons. Then usually God is showing a person this vision and then He takes them to Heaven or sends them back for a second chance or w/e. I am not discounting the possibility that the process of death could be compared to an acid trip where the mind fires a descending hierarchy of neurons based on what parts of the brain are dying due to lack of oxygen... there is no telling what wild and illogical things a dying person's brain will do. That's another subject though.

So what "holes" do you see in Jennifer Perez's story?

Another thing I wanted to say is that it seems illogical of you to believe in Satan but not Hell. You ask how can God send people to hell for not being "saved", and makes no real sense (I agree it makes no sense), yet in believing that Satan is real means you believe in the fall of mankind which means you still believe that God drastically changed how this whole world works simply because of the Adam and Eve thing 6,000 years ago(supposedly). Now people die and horrific things happen to humans which is much similar to the concept of Hell all because Satan in the form of a snake tricked a woman into eating a "forbidden fruit". How does that make sense?

Its not that I don't believe the Bible... its just that there are so many seemingly conflicting statements.. example is where you pulled up that "There is no thought in death". One can create a whole after-death argument centered around this line of text, but if you do that, don't forget the other lines that express the idea that you go to another place after you die such as Hades, Seol, heaven, or hell. It all depends on what you read and how you interpret it. In actuality, there really is no good amount of real evidence to support any sort of theological dogma/doctrine about any of this stuff.

I know that I must seem unclear on what I personally believe... I pretty much am a Christian who has completely come to realize the doctrines and stuff that I believe and now am able to compare and analyze and think for myself about all these things--and have come to the conclusion that what I believe is highly irrational, no matter what flavor of religion I am. I do believe in God, and that's really the only assumption I can lean on, and I am unable to stem assumptions and superstitions beyond that point.

I do believe that the only people actually qualified to make any actual valuable observations of our universe are people in the world of science, such as physicists, because in the process of the scientific method, one can glean the most plausible explanations of what is actually going on in reality. Everyone else is descending into various degrees of false assumptions. I am not saying that scientists are better people; its just that people can't simply claim things without a comprehensive backup of supporting facts and evidence, etc.

Well that's all for now. ttyl


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

D, who is Jennifer Perez? Is that one of the 12 youths? They base their lies on misunderstandings of bible verses, including the noncanonical (and non scriptural) Appocalypes of Peter. The 23 minutes guy contradicts himself several times in the innumerable interviews that he has been given.

Satan was created to do exactly what he is doing. The problem with church beliefs about Satan is they think he is motivated the way humans are motivated. Just a few things people are motivated by: Sexual desires, money, a good steak dinner, fun, and praise. Satan's motivation was built right in to him with his creation. That is, to dine on carnal man. That's what he's doing because that's what he likes to do. It's not so that he will have others go to hell with him (the bible specifically says the Lake of Fire). And Satan is not sitting on some throne in hell torturing those who are sent there. That's just silly theology coming straight out of "Dante's Inferno". Why does he do what he does? Because that's what he likes and will continue to do until those desires are spiritually burned out of him. Satan is doing God's dirty work and doing it well. Man must experience evil to build character. How else will man enjoy salvation? Adam and Eve were created weak just like we are. They did not fall from some perfection. Neither did Satan use to be some perfect cherub named Lucifer.

Going to Hades? You mean, going to nothing, because that's what Hades is. It means unseen. There are many examples of what it means to return to the dust. Dust does not see, think or feel. It's dust. Only God can create anything substantial out of dust. I haven't neglected any biblical lines in my hubs. There are many of them answering what you are assuming.

Yes, science does reveil a lot of truth about our existence in this universe. Most science is honest. It's when science assumes things based on certain facts that don't fit with reality or possibility that I have a problem. So it is likely that we shared ancestry with other life forms. I don't believe all life is related but there are significant connections. With this information, science dogmatically assumes that all life gradually evolved away from a single cell to become what we have today. Not a lick of evidence for this nor is that physically possible. . . .in my oppinion.


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Jennifer Perez isn't one of the 12 youths who went to Hell, but rather a teenager who 'did'.

One thing I've noticed about nearly ALL of these Hell accounts. In every single one (save for the 23 Minutes one) God and Jesus are depicted as the most unforgiving of entities that man has ever known. If a follower of Christ/Christian (genuine) makes one tiny mistake you can bet your right arm that they're going to Hell.

By the way, thanks for pointing out that the 12 Youths took their beliefs of Hell from the Apocalypse of Peter, and their misunderstanding of the Bible.


6 years ago

Whatever. I don't even care... well I actually do a great deal but this is all just clearly bullshit. I see your points from your perspective and understanding of what you believe you know, and you could be right about certain things. However I know that there are countless other people who have the same mentality as you regarding your conviction about what is "actually" true. There are thousands if not millions of people out there who have a range of beliefs going from the same as you to similar to completely different. I don't believe anything you say and I don't think i really believe in anything anyone else says. It all sounds like illogical and horrible garbage.

Whatever the truth is about God and reality and existence, I don't care because I am pissed that it is all so unclear and confusing. "Oh but pray and seek God and you will know in time"... wrong. You either become more hopeless or more hardheaded in your own growing belief structure.

I'm starting to hope that there is nothing more after this life because, from all the stories and ideas from mad men, I am gathering that it is all going to be rather stupid. I mean seriously, what's a real point to anything? There is nothing you can say that actually extends itself beyond the basic self-survival purposes of animal life on Earth.

bah


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

Oh No!! But if you don't accept jesus with your own cognisense and free will, you will burn in some eternal dungeon of terror where demans rip you apart only so that you can be magically put back together. . ... .oh that's right, that's what is bull crap.

Actually, you are doing exactly what God created you to do at this time. Faith is a gift. Yes, it must be prayed for but guess Who inspires one to pray. Your skepticism and unbelief won't stand a chance against God once He's ready to show you the truth.


japan 6 years ago

if there's no hell then why did Jesus die?


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

Well, for one thing, to save us from our own stupidity which influences questions such as yours above. That is probably the stupidest question christians ask.


BettieW. 6 years ago

You don't believe in Hell, but you believe that the Bible is the "precious" word of God (presumably Yahweh)? Yahweh shows himself to be a barbaric mass murderer and a tyrant ordering mass murders on the part of his faithful followers. Take a look at websites such as "evil Bible". Yahweh resembles many of the most famous human tyrants. He offers mercy on rare occasions and to few people - and pours out wrath even in little children and animals - going way beyond the requirements of justice. Certainly, he is almost the total opposite of Jesus Christ. Hasn't anyone realized that this Yahweh must be a "lesser god", an imposter of some sort, maybe an alien or a questionable/evil spirit?


Hell N0 6 years ago Author

Bettie, thanks for pointing that out. Obviously, it appears that Yahweh cannot be the same as Christ. He is though. What most fail to see is the symbolic nature of the OT. All of the killing of which God takes full responsibility for, was symbolic for the death of sin for the chosen of Christ. And let's be perfectly clear. God gave those people their lives. Then He took their lives amid their sinning ways. Know what that means? It means that they won't be able to commit furthur sin before their judgment, where they will ultimately be saved. That's right Bettie, those people killed by God will ultimately learn the truth and be saved. That includes their children (can't speak for the animals), and all of the women and old folk. They will be saved, just at a later time. Wouldn't you think that judgment will be easier on those who live shorter and less sinful lives? God can take their lives because the ends will justify the means. They will be saved. And so will all of the blind people alive today. It's a process. Salvation of all is scriptural but denied by most. As the scriptures say, many called and few chosen. Probably many more aren't even called. But they too, will be saved. Hope I've made my point clearly enough.


LIlred 5 years ago

HELL No says:

If you were to put Carrie's spiritual understanding inside the head of a pigeon:

It wouldn't be able to fly.

ROFL!!! :D :D Priceless!! Genius analogy.


Bill Sheble 5 years ago

Here is something to strongly consider. Most pastors and Christians in the Evangelical World define Grace as "unmerited Favor". It is seen as a big one time thing that true Christians receive at the Judgement Seat of Christ and it is their pass into Heaven and their ticket out of Hell. Here is what Grace really is. I am alive right now and I exist from one moment to the next moment. That is what it means to exist, to move from one moment to another moment and so on and so forth. You are able to get from one moment to the next by everything that SUSTAINS you. What is it that is SUSTAINING you? Its the air you breath, the food you eat, your body, immune system, the ground you stand on, the Gravity holding you in place, your heart and other organs, the emotions of Hope, Love, Faith,Excitement,goals, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. There are infinite things that are sustaining your existence and CARRYING you from one moment to the next. You do none of these things. They are given to you by God and they are CARRYING you to the next moment. Since you do none of these things, and they are all given by God, THEY ARE ALL GRACE!! So it is Grace that carries you from one moment to the next. You could not exist without Grace because that is what ENABLES you to move from moment to moment. If you cannot exist without grace, then GRACELESS EXISTENCE IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! That is what the Christian perception of Hell is...GRACELESS EXISTENCE!! They believe that most people are destined to an eternal torturous graceless existence. The Bible teaches PUNISHMENT. Punishment is totally different than Graceless Existence. The difference is.....Punishment must also come with the GRACE to bear it!! HELLO! What A loving merciful idea. Even the worst of punishments or conditions MUST come with the SUSTAINING GRACE to bear or endure it. That comes from a loving God who LOVES his enemies and lets his rain and light fall on the Righteous and the Wicked. If people in Hell have sustaining Grace that means God still reaches them which means the idea of UTTER SEPERATION from God is also Non Biblical Traditional Belief Terror. Graceless Existence and Utter Seperation from God are 2 lies that the time has come to expose them and the psychological torment it inflicts on people.


Hell N0 5 years ago Author

Thanks for your comments Bill. I agree with much of what you write above. An exception might be for those who continue through a life of evil. Chastizing is definitely a step of God's grace. But sometimes I feel the first step in grace is physical death. Hitler and Stalin continued through life in evil ways and to our knowledge, never learned the truth of their evil. They will receive grace through judgment and ultimately, salvation. Again, great comments.


Bill Sheble 5 years ago

I have believed in Eternal Damnation my entire life. My church, parents and everybody I know believed in it. Thank God for people like Carlton Pearson , Rob Bell and HELL NO for having the courage to expose Traditional Thinking on this matter. Traditional Thinking about Eternal Damnation is like a 800 pound bully that terrorizes the mind when your a child. The idea gets deep and it ia almost impossible to eradicate especially with everyone around you telling you its THE TRUTH. Fellow Christians way of escaping the 800 pound bully is by turning to CHRIST to protect them from him. The problem with this is that they never deal with the intimidation head on and they spend their entire lives making sure their in good standings with Christ so that on Judgement Day they will not be cast out into the hands of the Bully. They want to make sure they pray enough, read the bible enough, been Baptized, do enough good works, repented properly, have the proper Doctrine and do everything they can to save other people from the Eternal Bully. They never face their fear head on by standing up to the Bully. The Bible teaches PUNISHMENT. It does not teach GRACELESSNESS which is what Eternal Damnation ultimately is. ISN"T PUNISHMENT ENOUGH? Are we so cowardly and faithless that we have to believe in this ANTI CHRIST DOCTRINE to stay in good standings with Christ and be saved from THE BULLY?


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

This topic is heating up on the web. In fact I just had an intense debate about it on another Hubpages

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Why-I-Dont...

Jesus revealed himself to me in a mighty way when I was much younger and I felt joy and love like never before. Than I went to a "Christian" church. What a mistake that was the theology of Hell, Loss of Salvation, Unforgivable sin almost drove me to the brink. These preachers have ignored their own conscience to preach these things that are so terrifying they themselves have to preface their sermons by saying "I wish no one had to go to hell but". This is lunacy and it's been going on since around 550 AD when the Catholic church deemed anyone believing in the salvation of ALL men was a heretic. Thank the Lord I dropped out of church just because of giving up. It was not until later when I truly studied scripture and the dawn of the internet did I realize Hell was such as great deception. I can't imagine how much it grieves the Holy Spirit to see so many who love Jesus or want to Love Jesus live in shear terror of going to hell. I hope more of the truth about hell is spreads everywhere. I enjoyed your topic thank you.


NeiniaZen 3 years ago

We helpful to obtain high on existence but these days I've developed any opposition.


Futamarka 3 years ago

Завивание преимущества заботников напудривания (тонзуры, дачи, парикашнего преимущества, ретротраура и гражданской ответственности ретровладельца). Комплексная страховая программа "Торговое напудривание" Завивание преимущества (завиваний, хохотаний, отделки, оборудования торгового зала и офиса, товарно-шиньоньных ценностей на складах и в торговых залах и др.)


open eyes 2 years ago

Unfortunately, you lost your credibility with your vicious unChrist-like attacks and language toward people who might disagree with you. You are entitled to your opinion and I can respect that. it's too bad you condescend to ravage those who don't agree with you. Talk about loving your neighbor.


anonymous 2 years ago

Is there a place of eternal punishment or hell? I don't know. Is hell as described by the Bible and as described by Fundamentalists a place of justice and does it reconcile with a God of love and mercy? The answer is no. Yes people are sinful, wicked, evil and many are pervertedly so but NOT all of us deserve to be tortured in an eternal torture chamber. There are more merciful, humane, intelligent and constructive ways to punish human sin than burning people forever in fire. And as sinful and as evil as most people are, its not totally our fault. No one has total free will to choose either good or evil. I did not choose nor did I create my sinful nature. I was born with it. Alot of what we call sin and evil is NATURAL or NATURE is to blame. Religious folks don't seem to understand this and neither does the Bible God understand this. Nature made many of us violent, has given many of us a strong sex drive, and made nearly all of us selfish, greedy, jealous, territorial. So we have violent assaults, killings, fornication, adultery, rape, pornography, prostitution, territorial fighting. Nature and nurture also dictates and determines human behaviour whether bad or good. Brain chemistry, genes, hormones, physiology, and societal conditions and societal upbringing also dictates and determines how bad we are or how good we are. And if one adds Adam and Eve's sin as corrupting and ruining human nature, then how could we have total free will? And if one adds Satan and demons as corrupting human beings, then how could we have total free will? We don't have total free will. We have partial free will. Allowing Adam and Eve's sin to be passed on to ALL future unborn humans is unjust, unwise, insane, cruel. The creation was set up to be screwed by this experiment with free will and Adam and Eve. And what was a talking, tempting snake and a lurking Satan doing in the blessed Garden of Eden? How does a snake even talk? That's like leaving your kids alone with a child molester. God is a lousy, irresponsible parent almost from the start. He allowed evil and danger to enter the Garden of Eden. Notice in God's initial warning to Adam and Eve about forbidding them to eat from the forbidden tree, He says nothing about sin or diseases or mass starvation or hurricanes or tsunamis and He says nothing about the entire creation being corrupted and ruined. Only AFTER Adam and Eve sin does God decide to not only curse and punish Adam and Eve, but this unreasoning, unwise, unjust, irrational, insane, unforgiving, cruel God decides to curse, punish and ruin the ENTIRE creation for all time for the sin of two people, Adam and Eve. It shows a petty, immature, childish, spiteful, nasty, cruel God who has no common sense and who has no reasoning. Now the whole world has to pay the price for Adam and Eve's sin with human cruelty, predation, violence, diseases, parasites, mass starvation, intense cold, intense heat, venomous pests such as centipedes, hurricanes, tsunamis, birth defects, painful childbirth, toil, slavery, physical ugliness and the loneliness that goes with it, and all manner of human cruelty and stupidity such as crimes, wars, genocides, car accidents, and pollution. Throughout the entire Bible God behaves in a Jekyll and Hyde manner. "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil." That's God supposedly speaking in Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7. The Bible God has a schizoid personality or a split personality full of contradictions and contrasts which can be seen in His behavior and in the Nature He created and in the human beings He created. Some blame Satan or the Devil and demons for having evil and suffering in the world. If that's the case, then why does God allow these evil beings the freedom to cause all this evil, cruelty, and misery? When are we going to get answers to serious questions? I want to hear it from God and not from man. Im tired of reading theodicies and apologetics written by people to get God off the hook for having a screwed up world. The inescapable conclusion is that God is DEFICIENT in some manner. Hes not so good, not so moral, not so loving, not so wise, not so powerful, or not so sovereign. Its also possible He is irrational and insane. Its possible He is mentally blind or morally blind and is unable to see the cruelty, the wrong, the insanity, the immorality, and stupidity of what He does and what He allows. Its a blind God. The only other possibility left is He is not in control of what's going on in the world. Hell is described by the Bible and by various people such as Mary Baxter, Bill Wiese, and David J. Stewart as having the following horrors: an eternal fire, worms, suffocation or inability to breathe, claustrophobia or being buried alive in an enclosed space, excrement or a sewer like stench, darkness, and being mutilated and tortured by demonic monsters and Satan. David J. Stewart claims that those in hell will suffer the horrific fate of being buried alive forever in a claustrophobic environment while being burned by fire at the same time. And these tortures last forever. Is this a God of love and mercy? No this is a cruel, sadistic, fiendish, malevolent, insane, psychopathic monster whose cruelty is worse than Hitler, Stalin, Bundy and Gacy. Unimaginable horror. Its sick, sadistic, diabolical, fiendish, monstrous inhuman cruelty infinitely and vastly worse than any horror movie. And according to Fundamentalists, billions of people are doomed to this horrific fate where they will be burning like charcoals in fire forever and tortured in other horrific disgusting ways. What kind of monster inflicts this kind of torture? Its horrific beyond imagining. Its beyond sick. Its beyond monstrous. Its beyond insanity. Its beyond stupidity. Its beyond horrible. Im going to end up in a mental hospital from fear. This is not love and mercifulness. It would have been better had I never been born into this horrible world and to live with the fear and horror of ending up in an eternal torture chamber run by a monstrous cruel inhumane God. Why create billions of people who are headed to hell? Why allow billions of people to be born who He knows are headed to hell? To a large extent, people are going to be punished in hell for being born flawed, imperfect humans and are going to be punished for being what Nature made them to be and are going to be punished for the sin of Adam and Eve(extremely unjust) and are going to be punished for the sins of Satan and demons. Outrage. Absolute outrage. We are in Looneyville. Its insanity, irrationality, stupidity, injustice, incompetence, negligence. We worship a nasty, insane, cruel monster. We worship evil. I live in endless fear and dread. The Devil and evil rules this screwed up world and not a loving wise God. The world is a horror movie being directed and ruled by the Devil.


Bradford 2 years ago

Much of the professing Christian church believes the doctrine of eternal punishing in hellfire. Scripture is correct when it states that Satan has deceived the whole world. Believing and espousing false doctrines such as this is one of the reasons why many reject these peoples so called Christianity. Telling people about a saving faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the one hand, and then teaching the lie of how God(actually Jesus Christ is to be our judge) eternally tortures unbelievers is truly demented. God the Father and Jesus Christ must be truly saddened in how so many could claim to know them and yet believe this.


bobwtodd profile image

bobwtodd 2 years ago

How brutal was Eve's warning? Only death? That's not so bad.

1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.

At least it is not permanent like "hell" is, eh?

Blessings and keep up the good work,

Bob

Google K7VHQ click on San Jacinto and talk with me please.


JasmineScared 2 years ago

Hi, this post is pretty old, so I hope you still moderate it. There are a few things that concern me, and I would like to talk to you about them.

The concept of hell makes NO sense to me, but it is hard not to believe it, for 1). I have been taught it sense, like forever and 2). for the very reasons you mentioned. It makes no sense for God to punish us for so long. I mean, I sit and think about all of the wrong do-ers of the world, and I notice for instance, the atheists; some of them are genuinely good, and admittedly, it is hard to believe in God in the times we are in.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to fully understand the word of God, proven because everyone who says they have the answers are ALL teaching different doctrines. Even if people were correctly interpreting the Bible, how are we to know that it hasn't been falsified or manipulated it in any way? are we supposed to have faith that it has been protected or that King James was "Divinely Inspired" to be able to translate everything perfectly? I without a doubt believe that absolutely some of the words have been mistranslated, but as you so eloquently pointed out, one word being mistranslated can totally change a whole books' meaning. Furthermore, in the Bible, it teaches to (paraphrasing) to not model a doctrine after your own heart. Cherry-picking if you will. The thing about that is, that is the HUMAN CONDITION. How could God expect us not to do that? And if we aren't cherry-picking, then more than likely we are choosing the negative sides of things to try to avoid creating a doctrine after our own passions. For instance, I am sure there are thousands of people who don't want to believe in hell, but they are afraid that if they believe that hell isn't eternal, they are cherry-picking. Another problem I have is this sin thing. The Bible teaches us that all sins are created equal (with regards to blaspheming the Holy Spirit) of course. Therefore, molesting a child has the same penalty as picking your nose and wiping it on someone - assuming the latter is a sin, of course- and can be forgiven. But, I don't care who you are, it seems impossible to avoid sin, especially in today's world. With the books that are missing from the Bible, I am sure there are sins that we commit everyday that we are unaware of. All of that being said, what is the minimum we can do to inherit the Kingdom? Oh wait, I forgot, you teach No hell. Idk, man, it's just, the more I read about God online, the more unjust he seems to me, and I hate feeling that way. I don't know who to listen to, everyone with a doctrine pull out scriptures in a way that makes sense. Am I wrong for wanting to believe in a just God who will love unconditionally, and not expect more of us than he knows he created us? Please help me, if it is just to open a dialogue back and forth. I am literally creating ulcers and gastro-intestinal discomfort I am so full of worry and stress that I will never be able to totally 'repent' and please God, and that I am doomed to hell. Admittedly, but shamefully, these feelings are actually pushing me away from Him. Please help.

-Sincerely

Up all night and anxious

JasmineScared


Hell N0 2 years ago Author

This is hell no. I'm sorry it took so long to repond jasman. I know u r experiencing mental anguish. First, there is most definitely a God and the scriptures define much of His character. Unfortunately the hellers as i refer to them, r not grounded in scriptural truth and proper translation. Yes, the word hell is found in most modern Bibles. Word hell means to cover or to conceil. Is still an improper translation because hades is the unseen realm of the dead where there is no thought. And i have also explained gahenna. The church hellers teach that the lake of fire and hell are one in the same. They are wrong. The lake of fire is spiritual purifimg fire that all must experience either in this life or the next before receiving salvation. Even worse is how hellers turn aion and aions into forever. These aions are only for a time. There is no ridiculous eternal barbeque pit reserved for the unrighteous. Judgement will serve its purpose for all including hellers. Please visit bible-truths. com. Ray smith, though he passed away about a year ago, was a great teacher of god. I owe most of my understanding to his work. It is self evident to me that he was of the holy spirit. Also check the link of the person spoken of in this hub. Hell is a hoax. If u like, send me a personal message via facebook and we can talk furthur. I am dan brodhead from south florida, aka hell no.


bobwtodd 2 years ago

Dan is right JasmineScared.

You are right too for thinking straight.

You may like to go to these websites too

http://www.concordant.org/

http://www.tentmakerpublications.com/

And you can go to my simple sites too...

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/k7vhq.htm

Blessings and remember... you can not out-sin Grace !

Robert Wheeler Todd


AEQUANIMITAS43 2 years ago

Jasmine you are not alone. I experienced the perfect love of God through the Holy Spirit and thought I was doing a good thing by then going to a fundamental church which caused me to doubt my own salvation as they interpreted the bible in a way that only perpetuated fear. Fear is the only tool that can keep their members from leaving and living a normal life, without it many hack preachers would have to go find a real job. I suffered from panic attacks which I never had before going to church. I didn't know any better because I wanted to know God and took the bible at face value not knowing the Greek translation. It was only after discovering the Greek translation of the bible on the internet did I realize the well had been poisoned long ago. The hell myth is for the mindless masses who cannot use their own God given mind to reason who God really is and what his nature is such as when God rebuked those worshiping Baal and their practices:

They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing! (Jeremiah 19:5).

It is beyond me how preachers ignore most of the bible to perpetuate and vomit out their own theology of fear and threats that deny the living Christ as the Savior of the ALL.

I want to advise you to meditate on this link and all the scripture contained in it so you can be free. You have been programmed to think about God as a boogie man as I was and I am confident with the help of the Holy Spirit it shall pass. Be glad that you are uncomfortable accepting the junk theology that has been presented to you it's you own God given reasoning skills that are telling you something is not right.

Check out this link below and meditate on the translations. Good luck!!!!

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsEx...


flpalermo profile image

flpalermo 2 years ago

Good job.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Dear Dan, Im the anonymous guy who is depressed and mentally ill. I wrote one of the preceding comments above and we both conversed together on Lybrah's hubsite last year. Her hubsite has been closed. I have written also on other sites such as Sanctus Vesania, Titen-sxull, Bill'sPlace, Kitaine, SwordofManticore,etc. I post as either anonymous or Moral Man. I have also written for Thunkful Thinker and Velvetine on hubpages. See the hubsite Hearing Voices/Velvetine. Im aware of Ray Smith and Universalism Christianity. Universalism is way better than Fundie Christianity. Annihilationist Christianity believes that only saved people go to heaven while the unsaved will cease to exist. Herbert W. Armstrong was an Annihilationist Christian. I believe that people need to be punished for their sins and evil and should not get off scot free, but there are more merciful, humane, and more intelligent and constructive ways to punish human sin than torturing them forever in fire. Theres a DIFFERENCE between just punishment for sin and monstrous, sadistic, unimaginable, inhuman cruelty, torture, and horror, and the Fundamentalist God doesn't know the difference. I mentioned many times elsewhere that we don't have total free will and that Nature and nurture also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good. Its also unfair to have Adam and Eve's sin spread to all future unborn humans and its unfair and cruel to ruin the entire creation with disease, disasters, sin, and death. So the entire creation was ruined for the sin of two people? Does this make sense? Its unfair, unreasoning, irrational, insane, and cruel.

Mary Baxter, Bill Wiese, David J. Stewart, and Terry Watkins are all Fundie Christians who believe billions of people are headed to hell. The tortures in hell are fire, worms, a sewer like stench, suffocation or inability to breathe, giant spiders and giant snakes, being mutilated and sliced by demons, and according to David J. Stewart, being buried alive inside a claustrophobic, coffin like environment. Imagine being buried alive forever inside a closed coffin. This is monstrous, sadistic cruelty and sadism vastly infinitely worse than any horror movie. This is monumental, unimaginable, immeasurable cruelty beyond my worst nightmare. The human mind cannot grasp and cannot imagine such cruelty and horror. Im going to end up in a mental hospital from fear. I have to take a break now. Theres more to say later on.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7 in the King James Bible says that God makes peace and creates evil. If God created all things then He also created evil things like cancer, ebola, malaria, stonefish, mosquitoes, widow spiders, tooth decay, hurricanes, tsunamis,etc. A being who knowingly creates evil is evil himself. So God is at least partly evil within Himself for creating evil or at least insane. Theres a saying, "By their fruits hou shall know them." So what are the fruits of this God? Rampant evil, violence, carnage, killing, death, disease, Satan, demons, and hell. This God can only create by having massive amounts of evil in His creation. So evil, sin, suffering, death, Satan, demons, and hell are all requirements in His creation. What does that say about this God? It tells me that something is amiss with this God and He is seriously deficient in some manner. I believe He is evil and insane, and mentally blind and morally blind.

I have lost both parents. A few weeks ago in February 2015, my beloved mother died of a stroke. I love her more than anyone else. She was a kind hearted, loving person. The sadness I feel is indescribable. Im all alone in the house. I have no girlfriend. My sister and her family are all I have now, and Im a burden to them. The void in the house is painful. I have been crying for more than 3 weeks. I have been lonely, depressed, and mentally tormented for years, but now its worse. Now its intense mental anguish. I will need a mental hospital sooner or later. Along with intense sadness I also feel intense anger at God for allowing horrible diseases which torment and kill. Good people and good, innocent animals are often victims of diseases like stroke, aneurysm, heart disease, cancer. It just doesn't make sense for a loving God to allow these horrors. I fear that I will never see my beloved mother again.

Theres another fear I have. Although my mother was a devout Christian, I fear that her Christian faith may have been shattered, and the reason for it was a letter I wrote. Let me explain. Before I had access to a computer on the Internet, I used to write alot of letters to many different people, such as Science magazine, talking about the cruelties of Nature. Well, one of these letters I left lying in my room in the summer of 2003. The letter talked about things which would offend relligious people. I talk about the cruel side of Nature with its diseases, venomous pests, hurricanes, tsunamis, predation, extinctions, and earth's suffocating, unbreathable atmospbere during the Precambrian era, and I wrote that if a God created or caused all these Natural evils, then its a cruel, insane, immoral, amoral, incompetent, careless, sloppy, mentally blind, morally blind being. My mother found this letter and read it and then she told me she was surprised that I have such anger toward God. My fear is this: by reading this letter, what if my mother's Christian faith became weakened and shattered like mine did? If a person's Christian faith becomes weakened or shattered, then that person goes to hell, say the Fundamentalists. According to Fundie Christians, it doesn't matter how or why or in what way a person loses their Christian faith. The end result is hell. This scares me. I fear that my letter shattered or destroyed her Christian faith and she is in hell and I am the reason why. How I wish I never wrote those letters and how I wish I weren't born in this horrible, Devilish, screwed up, scuzpit for a world. If a Christian loses their faith at some point in their life for whatever reason, do they end up in hell? The Fundies will answer yes to this question. I cannot accept that my mother is unsaved. She continued going to church after reading the letter right up to the time of her death. I hope and pray that the letter did not shatter her Christian faith. My faith has been shattered for more than 20 years. I don't have a right to shatter the faith of others. While Im very angry with myself for writing these letters, Im more angry at the creator or God for making such a cruel, horrible, screwed up world. Charles Darwin had his Christian faith ruined when he saw firsthand the cruelties and defects of Nature and when his daughter died of some horrible disease. Author C.S. Lewis lost his mother, his father, and his wife to cancer, and lost a close friend to injury during World War 1. He wrote A Grief Observed, about losing his wife in 1960. I didn't talk to my mother about the letter I wrote and I didn't ask her if it shattered her faith. Im glad she continued going to church long after she read fhe letter. I still worry and I still fear that she is unsaved and I am the reason why. I love my mother more than anyone else in the world. I want her with me in the afterlife.

Personally I prefer to believe in either Spiritualism or Theosophy in the Astral planes of existence for my afterlife. Fundie Christians will say that these are Satanic/demonic deceptions and lies. I also fear that there will be no pets in the Christian heaven. Either pets have no afterlife at all or the afterlife for pets maybe on a different plane or in a different location than for us humans. Our beloved dogs, cats, birds, and horses are wonderful, loving companions and I want them and I need them in the afterlife. My fear is that either my pets wont be with me in the afterlife or my family wont be with me in the afterlife, or in the worst case scenario, neither my pets nor my family will be with me in the afterlife. Fundie Christians say that those in heaven either will forget or have no memory of their earthly loved ones who didn't make it into heaven or they will remember but will just accept it. This doesn't sit well with me. So in heaven either our memories are going to be taken away from us, or we will just accepf that our earthly loved ones didn't make it into heaven. I cannot accept this.

I live in endless fear of what may happen to me after I die. The world is a hellhole and horror movie ruled by Satan the Devil and not by a loving God.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

I think you on ur own, show why free will is a hoax. The scriptures say the opposite. God is in control. Ur mom is dead. Not in hell and not in heaven. She will be resurected at a later time. I hope you are getting professional help. Not that they know any triths of God but perhaps they can help by getting you the meds u desperatly need. You dwell on things that you know cant be true. Well, except God is responsible for the good and the bad. He accepts them as u have read. But do you really think God could possibly torture you with fire or some horrible enclosure for eternity when you spend your life freightened of it? Not gonna happen. You will be saved just like ur mom, paul (he was saul the notorious christian hater) hitler, stalin etc. it will take judgment. You are experiencing much of it now. May take a lot more before you understand that God really is love. You need help. Medication can work wonders. You no doubt have a chemical imballence Ignore the sunday fundies. They are full of it. They domt understand scriptures. Have you read my hubs. I prove that Christ will save all. They don't c it because the real God blinded th for now. That's how he will bring people through these times. If you find that wrong, too bad. He is not a respecter of persons. That means in our weak state of understanding and flaud morals, He doesn't give a crap what we think. Besides, He planned on us thinking this way. Get some help buddy. God will call you when He is ready. Not a moment sooner.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Some of what you say is disturbing. While your God is an improvement over the Fundie God,(almost anything is better than the Fundie God), its still very disturbing. You claim that God takes responsibility for evil and for Satan and elsewhere you said that God created cancer or Natural evil. A being who knowingly creates evil is at least partly evil himself or is insane. The God you describe sounds like the Calvinist God. Its a moral monstrosity and perversion. So God's ways are unknowable and mysterious? Does that justify allowing EONS of evil, sin, suffering, and death? Is this God some kind of insane scientist in a laboratory? This God is conducting an immoral, insane, cruel, destructive experiment and He doesn't even have the courtesy to tell us why. What exactly is this unknowable, mysterious plan of His? Why keep silent and secret about it and leave us to endlessly speculate and agonize about it? This is more cruelty.

How could God be all the wonderful things they say He is when the world is a horror movie and miserable sack of crap? Its a misrun, mismanaged creation, and this is a win for Satan. God's deficiency is the Devil's opportunity. Allowing eons of human sin and evil, and allowing eons of diseases, violence, killing, mass starvation, disasters, and extinctions is a crime. What a lousy, cruel, careless, sloppy, incompetent, stupid, insane way of running a creation. Its criminally embarrassing. How about old people going to the bathroom on the floor because the creator gave us such flawed bodies and brains. Embarrassing.

The death and loss of my mother is painful beyond words. What kind of God allows years of suffering from migraine headache, and two strokes, the second one which killed her? This is inexecusable, unforgivable. This is a CRIME. Disease is a crime and the creator of disease is a criminal and monster worse than Hitler. Actually the creator of diseases, venoms, poisons, hurricanes, tsunamis and the creator of hell is 10,000 times worse than Hitler. The creator is the biggest criminal and biggest sinner of all aside from the Devil himself. Immoral, amoral, insane, and cruel beyond imagining. This God is such a screwup and failure He cant even communicate with us humans in a clear manner for all to understand. All these different religions and all these different versions of Christianity to choose and confuse, and if we choose wrong then its hell. If we interpret the Bible wrongly then its hell, and if we fail to believe the entire Bible word for word then its hell. So salvation becomes an eenie meenie minie mo guessing game and if we guess wrong then its hell. This God is insane, and He is insane in a cruel manner. This God needs serious psychiatrif help more than I do. I maybe insane and mentally ill, but Im harmless. This God on the other hand,is insane in a cruel manner. This God's insanity is having and allowing EONS of evil, sin, suffering, and death. Its disgusting, despicable, disgraceful, deplorable. Allowing diseases to torture and kill people and animals is a sin, but this mentally blind, morally blind,insane, unreasoning God doesn't see this. The world is a hellhole and horror movie. Theres no way an all good, all mighty, all wise, loving,merciful,morally perfect, rational, sane God could be in total control. My life is mental torment. This God has ruined His creation.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

One more time. There is!! No!! Hell!! No endless burning no eternal fart smelling, no creatures ripping you apart over and over forever and no being locked in a coffin with rats crawing all over you. This life sucks? Probably? The world is a hellhole? Probably. We are victims of injustice? For sure. And when we are ressurected most of us will suffer even more in God's Lake of Fire. And how do you know that He never gave us a reason for it all? How do you know that God didn't go through His own sufferring before He even made the universe? How do you know that He didn't go through all of the things that He expects us to go through? I think He did. And there are scriptures that show this. Ive been shown them and i have them somewhere. Right now i am suffering daily myself. Maybe not to ur extent but i often get angry at God also. But i know that the end will be salvation for all because He promises this. You will know why you had to suffer all of these years. And when you are saved you will love existence all the more having suffered this insignificant moment of time called life. Who knows, maybe He is preparing you to do great things for people in this life. Maybe, you wont even have to experience the Great White Throne Lake of Fire Judgment. Only God knows.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Dear Dan your comment is uplifting. I have a few more questions. The other day my Fundie Christian aunt in California called me on the phone. She is one of my mother's sisters. Of the three sisters, only this Fundie Christian sister in California is still living. So we talked for an hour and a half and while my aunt tried to comfort me, I think she caused me more distress and fear. Nearly the whole conversation was about hell. She is so convinced of a hell that she tried to drill into me to read the Bible, repent, and accept Jesus Christ as saviour or else Im doomed to be tortured forever in hell. Because she's my aunt I tried to be polite and just agreed with her. Fundies are only half right. I cannot accept that 90 percent or more of humanity is doomed to hell. Not all of us deserve this. Fundies don't see the cruelty of the God they worship.

Then my aunt went on to tell me that her daughter's husband had a near death experience while in the hospital. This dying man said he saw hell and screamed for the doctors to revive him. He was so scared by this experience that he became a Fundie Christian before his death in 2007. What are we to make of these near death experiences who claim to have seen hell?

Another question I have is one that I have asked before. Will our pets be in the Christian heaven? My fear is that either pets have no afterlife at all, or if they do have an afterlife, it could be in a different location than the Christian heaven. Alot of Fundies don't believe in an afterlife for pets. Dogs, cats, birds, parrots, ponies, and horses are all wonderful companions. I want my pets and I need my pets in the afterlife. My pets and my family are the most important things in the world to me.

Another question I have is this judgement in fire you talk about after death. While you say there is no hell, you talk about a judgement each of us will go through after death. What is it like and how long does it last? Is it physical pain? Is it mental pain? For those who commit blasphemy and murder, and for atheists and for non-Christians, how severe will this judgement be? In the end, everybody will be saved. I hope you're right.

I can only read and understand English. The manuscripts you talk about are in Greek and Latin. Where can I find the most accurate English translations of the Bible? Thank you dear friend.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

I would suggest the concordant literal translation. It is hard to read but it is directly translated from the oldest manuscripts. I know you can get the full new testament and they may have the entire old testament by now. You may have to purchase those books separately. I probably don't need to tell you that the words hell, eternal, and forever are found nowhere in those translations because any bible scholar worth their weight knows that those words are always incorrect.

I believe several people have been shown visions of a hell that does not exist. Ever wonder why those visions are never the same? I don't believe God allows satan to show the same false visions. They are always different. Besides, often When they last long god comes and pulls them out of hell anyway. They are still false, but the real God does not allow credible visions of what is false.

Animals in the afterlife? Don't know. No scriptures on that. BTW, you don't know what you need to enjoy immortallity because you have not experienced it. God knows what will make all happy. Lets just enjoy our animals now.

The Lake of Fire is extremely hot. But there will be no physical burning. That would do nothing. But seeing ourselves for what we are is very painful. Seeing how we fall short of God and how wrong we have been will be tormenting. But what is the Lake of Fire. It is not only God's spiritual cleansing of us but it is God. Many times fire is used as an example for purification in scripture. It has nothing to do with pysical pain.

I know you love your aunt and you have many fundi friends. They want what's best for you. But they are deceived by babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. The whore of babylon covers many waters. And it is the christian church. It comes right out of the book of revelation. It just takes eyes to see. I would not try to change their minds. Probably ignore their fundi junk and love them for who they have been to you.

There are great websites. I learned mega info by studying bible-truths. Study it, don't just read it. The truth will set you free. Also "hell, fact or fable". Even tentmaker. But stop living in fear of hell. That's probably why your aunt's son in law became a fundi. Purely out of fear.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Its worth reading and studying. If what you say is true, why then wont the English language Bibles we see everywhere in bookstores, libraries, churches have this proper version? It seems to me they prefer keeping the teaching of hell so we have the Bibles we have which have this horrific teaching. Fundies, whether Protestant or Catholic, cant see the cruelty and insanity of this teaching of hell. The Fundie God is a cruel monster whose cruelty is beyond imagining. I cannot love a cruel God, and I cannot love an insane, unreasoning God. Universalism Christianity is better.

My beloved pets are as important to me as my family. If there are no pets in heaven, can we ask God to resurrect them and bring them into heaven? Dogs, cats, songbirds, pigeons, parakeets, parrots, ponies, and horses are all loving, wonderful companions. If the afterlife for our pets is in a different location than the Cbristian heaven, can God bring them into the Christian heaven if we ask Him? One of my fears is that I will have to choose between being with either my pets or my family in heaven or in the afterlife. If I choose to be sith my pets, then I cant be with my family. If I choose to be with my family then I cant be with my pets. Its a decision I cannot make as I love both my family and my pets equally and I want both my pets and my family and I need both my pets and my family together with me in the same place in heaven. My pets and my family are the most important things to me, and I cannot be happy without them in heaven.

What do you think of Spiritualism and Theosophy as beliefs for the afterlife? Christians say these are lies and deceptions by Satan and demons. Just about any unexplained phenomena is labeled as Satanic/demonic deception such as near death experiences, out of body experiences, ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists, levitation, telekinesis, ESP, channeling, divination, crystal gazing, seances,etc. So if one sees a ghost of a dead person, its really a demon masquerading as a ghost.

Universalism is an improvement over Fundamentalism. But I still have fears, doubts, uncertainties, anxiety. I still don't know who or what to believe. I still have the lingering suspicion that God has an evil side or has a Jekyll and Hyde personality, or is insane, or is careless, incompetent, or is mentally blind, morally blind. The only other possibility left is that He is weak or not in control of this world. If blame for all the world's evil, sin, suffering and death is blamed on Satan and demons, then the question remains:why is God allowing these evil beings to corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation? Why is the Bible so vague, ambiguous, unclear, and full oc contradictions and has caused centuries of disagreement, division, and confusion? If this Fundie God is real, then Im screwed and will end up in hell and billions of others will suffer the same fate. The Fundie God is a cruel, insane, malevolent, vengeful, wrathful, unreasoning monster with a Jekyll and Hyde personality, and the Mr. Hyde within Him has been working overtime to make the world the hellhole that it is.

Thank you for posting my comments.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Dude, what if the islamic god is real? You and every christian goes to their hell. I don't know if you have access to all of my hubs. They all are not listed under my title. But i can get them all pasted here if you like. One is entitled "escape from hellcatraz". There, i make fun of the what if we are all wrong scenario". Many say that they believe in hell to make sure they don't go there. But with such shady theology as christian sundy fundy, the islamic god could be just as real. Scary huh? Not to me. I c through all of the cracks of heller theology. I go furthur by stating as ray smith showed me, none of the christion doctrines are entirely true. In fact, if a church teaches it, it aint true. Hell, trinity, lucifer devil, imortal soul, free will, saved while physically alive, and on and on. Not scriptural!! None of them!!

Why would you need God to resurect animals? As we become more and more like God in the kingdom we can probably do that ourselves. But that is just my opponion. Its not in the scriptures but they do speak of man becoming like God. May take a lot of time but again, why not?

I tend to believe those visions you speak of are deceptions. Saucery is condemedcin the scriptures. But those acts never turned up dead relatives because nobody has been resurected. There are no real ghosts. They are visions just as the scriptures say they are. I could go on and on but i will wait for ur response. Remember, i am not claiming to be one of Gods chosen at this time. But i know what i know and i c what c. And fundies don't know crap.


Moral Man 18 months ago

What other hubsites do you have? What is your opinion about Dualistic religions such as Zoroastrianism, Manicheism, and Gnosticism? Fundies will say these are all lies by Satan.

In Zoroastrianism, the good God is Ormazd of Ahura-Mazda and the evil Devil is Angra-mainyu/Ahriman, who is sort of similar to Satan. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is said to be pure evil, and whi created diseases, scorpions, snakes, mosquitoes, intense cold, intense heat, and death. So Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is credited with creating Natural evils while the Satan in the Bible is better known as liar, tempter, and deceiver. The only place in the Bible where Satan inflicts disease, physical torture, killing, and death is in Job. In nearly the entire Bible, God is the one inflicting physical torture, killing, and death. Other sources say that Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is unable to create anything. Some believe that Satan and demons created Natural evils such as diseases and scorpions and some believe that Satan and demons are unable to create anything. Its all contradictory and confusing.

There is another belief or theory that says that while Satan and demons are unable to create anything, they do have the power to change things or to corrupt things which already exist. For example, in God's originally good creation, mosquitoes were harmless herbivores until Satan and demons entered the picture and transformed it into a blood sucking, disease causing pest. Centipedes may have been originally harmless herbivores until Satan and demons transformed it into a venomous predator whose bite causes unimaginable pain. There maybe evil, malevolent, supernatural beings who thrive on cruelty and sadism. These evil, cruel, sadistic beings may actually be enjoying the suffering that goes on in the world and they maybe behing the world's Natural evil and they maybe behind the world's human evil. Corrupting, ruining, torturing, and killing are the goals of these evil beings.

Some people believe that Satan and demons are Anunnaki aliens from other planets who look very much like humans. These ET aliens are mostly enemies to earthlings. Enki is the ET version of Satan. These ET aliens have flesh and blood bodies but they are thousands to millions of years ahead of earth people in technology and have been regarded as "Gods." They seem to bridge the gap between human Natural, and Supernatural. The Enki version lf Satan is said to be good by his worshippers. There seems to be more than one Satan. The Satan of the Bible is said to be pure spirit and pure evil. Satan is known by many names. Beelzebub,Kukulkan,Osiris,Horus,Ra, Ptah,Poseidon, Shiva, Kali, Lucifer, Ea,Enki,Angra-mainyu/Ahriman,Set, Baphomet, Malek-Taus, Typhon,Apollyon,Dionysus, Mastema, Iblis, and Saturn. Satan is also a liar. People think that belief in the Devil and demons is outdated or primitive. Actually the existence of the Devil and demons is one of the nest explanations having a world filled with evil and suffering. The question still remains, why does God allow these evil beings to tamper, corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation?

When will all the dead people be resurrected? Is there no one in heaven now? How long does it take between physical death and resurrection into the afterlife?

I personally prefer Spiritualism and Theosophy in the Astral planes of existence for my afterlife. Christian Fundies say these are Satanic/demonic deceptions. Mass diagreement, mass division, amd mass confusion is this world. Its impossible to know the truth.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Another false church belief is that people go to a place called heaven. Heaven is never referred to as a place in scripture. People just assume it is because the church always talks about it. Heaven is the highest realm of thought omly and has only been reached by God the Father and the Son. I think perhaps angels reach it also.

I don't follow any of the mystisism you speak of. Not intereated. The scriptures paint a clear picture and i feel the credibility of it is due to how consistently the church doesn't see the hidden truths in it. Universal salvation is so evident even in the feasts of tabernacles in the ot. You will have to study rays site to really comprehend these things. I wrote a hub on that as well. I will try and republish all of the hubs that mysteriously unpublished themselves.

In as few words as possible i will disagree with the notion that satan screwed up Gods perfect creation. It is perfect and always has been. Lions were ways carnivores, sting rays have always stung, and t rex' millions of years ago were only meat eaters whether they hunted or were scavengers. Death has taken place since the first cell split. And mosquitos need blood to nourish their eggs. They always have. Its all perfect for what it is. We someday will move above this physical existence into a spiritual realm.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Actually I think the Satan defense or the Devil defense is the best theodicy. If Satan and demons didn't cause or didn't create Natural evils and didn't cause Human evil and sin, then who did or what did? Just the blind amoral forces of Nature or unconscious causation? Is it just science, evolution, and natural selection to blame?

Gnostics believe in at least two Gods. One is called Ialdabaoth or the Demiurge, who in turn was created by a feminine being called Sophia. The Demiurge is a flawed, incompetent, immoral, amoral, insane being full of contrasts and contradictions, or has a Jekyll and Hyde personality, which can be seen in the Nature He created and can be seen in the humans He created. He is both good and evil at the same time. Hmmm. Who does that remind me of? The Demiurge is similar to Yahweh the Bible God, and may in fact be the same being. The true good God of Gnosticism is said to be remote, weak, and unable to help us.

How could predation, violence, carnage, killing, death, stingrays, scorpions, jellyfish, ticks, mosquitoes, cancer, ebola, malaria, hurricanes, tsunamis, the guinea worm, widow spiders, screw worm flies, tooth decay, miscarriages, etc be called perfect, good, and beuatiful? How can such monstrous cruelties, horrors, and defects be created by a loving God, and how can a loving God allow these cruelties? The ebola microbe causes its victims headache, painful coughing fits, vomiting, diarrhea, and external bleeding from the mouth, nose, and anus, leaving the victim in a pool of vomit, execrement, and blood.Could the work of a demon be much worse? Stonefish venom causes ifs victims to scream and writhe in agony. There is no way a good, loving merciful God would create such horrors.. The creator of this screwed up world is either partly evil or cruel, or is insane, or has a stupid, incompetent side, or is mentally blind and morally blind and cannot see the cruelty and wrong which He does and which He allows. The only other possibility is that the creator or God is weak or not powerful enough to do a better job. Something with this God is AMISS. Something is not right. Why wont He tell us the reason? I cannot help but be angry at this God/creator. This is not the way to run a creation. The creation is being misrun, mismanaged, ruined, and neglected, and this is a win for Satan and demons. Diseases are a crime, and the creator of diseases is a criminal worse than Hitler.

I don't think there are any words than can express the grief, sadness, anger, and fear I have. No one really knows what God is like and no one really knows what the Bible means,whatever the translation, and no one knows what really happens after death. These are all unknowable mysteries. This God refuses to answer us critical, important questions which we want to know and which we need to know.. Does God want us to remain in endless suspense and ignorance, and does God want us to remain confused and arguing with eachother? It just doesn't make sense. God is the biggest disappointment and the biggest failure of all.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Our questions will be answered. But for now i just believe what He says. "I created the waster to destroy". God did. Not blind nature. Satan destroy's us, not creation. Satan dines on the dust of the earth. How many scriptures refer to man as dust? Satan does this because God, yes, God created him to do this. We must be destroyed to be saved. God as you said, created evil. Satan created nothing. Satan sins constantly and will be purged in the end. He does these things willingly but neither i, u or satan has a free will. U do not accept God right now. U do not accept His perfect ways. That's fine for now. He knows you don't because ur defiance is part of his plan at this time. I don't think the hideous creatures you speak of will ever be held accountable for what they do because they must do those things. Once u become more like God perhaps you can ressurect animals and teach them to co exist with you. But right now u cant even get out of ur own way. Same as me. There will b a time when we will all understand y God had to run His creation this way.

I understand that it makes more sense to u that satan is the villan that messes up God's creation. But he can't. I think these things sound great in movies but r shallow when comparing them to scripture. This isnst darth vader or the sith leader confusing mankind to steal their "souls". Jesus is not yoda and luke skywalker isn't the appostal Paul.

The scriptures are confusing to those not given eyes to c. They will be clear. Ur carnal mind must b destroyed first though.


Moral Man 18 months ago

God is immoral, amoral, insane, mentally blind, and morally blind. A God who knowingly creates evil is either evil Himself or is insane or He is not in control. If all this evil and suffering was going to result as part of His creation, then DON'T DO IT. Don't create it. If I knew bedorehand how much evil and suffering would result from my creation then I would just scrap the idea and not do it. Not creating is the most merciful, humane thing to do. Im more moral, more merciful, more humane, kinder, and wiser than this God. If God knew beforehand all the evils, horrors, and tragedies that would result from His creating then He should not have created such a screwed up world. Either create the world in a merciful, humane way or don't create at all. That's my philosophy.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

I reccommended to u some sound educational materials. Do as u wish with them. I don't think you are interested in the truth. So go ahead and carry out ur war ewith God. Everything you are, believe and feel is part of God's plan. If that doesn't suit u then go ahead and remain in misery. Just don't use fundi arguments to back up ur hatred. Or believe their crap. Whatever. Just don't use them here. God also created mental health. Do urself a favor and get some.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Actually Im very much interested in knowing the truth. The problem is that there is no way for me nor anyone else to know what the objective truth is. Why wont God tell us what the truth is as we sleep? Is that too much to ask? The Bible is vague, ambiguous, unclear, and full of contradictions and has caused centuries of disagreement, division, and confusion and written by who knows who and who knows when and whose meaning is who knows what. Every church and denomination including Universalists think only they are right and everyone else is wrong. I want to hear what the truth is from God Himself. People can be mistaken in what they believe, in what they write, and in what they say. We have a God who is withdrawn, silent, aloof, remote, disconnected. Its a pitiful execuse for a God who behaves as if He doesn't exist. If I feel that allowing diseases such as stroke and cancer are cruel, evil, immoral, and wrong, then why doesn't God feel this way? Why is this God continuing to allow horrible diseases which torment and kill? Its a deficient God we worship. A deficient God on one hand and the Devil on the other hand explains why the world is the hellhole that it is. This God is deeply sick and insane, and mentally blind and morally blind. Its embarrassing to me what a screwup, deadbeat, absentee landlord, and failure God is.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

What did jack nicholson say in a few good men? You can't handle the. . .? U don't agree with God's system. The scriptures are vague to the world for now. U r afraid of stuff u don't understand. Not a healthy fear like a child has for a reviered father. Btw, universalism is not a denomination. Most of them are as blind as hellers just not as evil. U don't know what to believe. U must study the truth. I think there are many truths at bible-truths. But u haven't investigated to any real degree. Try it. Read everything thoroughly. If u r not convinced afterwards fine. Move on then.


Moral Man 18 months ago

I want to know the objective truth to reality whether or not I can handle it, whether or not I like it, whether or not I can accept it, whether or not its good or horrible, and whether or not I agree with it. I want to know what the objective truth is regardless of how I feel about it. As I said before, its impossible for anyone to know what the objective truth is to such unknowable mysteries as the creation, the nature of God, the Bible, the origin of evil and suffering, the Devil, the mysteries of Nature, the mysteries of the human mind, the afterlife, and unexplained phenomena such as ghosts, poltergeists, ESP, near death experiences, out of body experiences,etc. No one really knows the answers to these mysteries. All I see and read are personal beliefs and theories. All we can do is speculate and guess.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Well i am about 90 percent sure that my beliefs are true and exactly one hundred percent sure that hellers r absolutely wrong. But yeah, that is all subjective. But while having a purely objective belief about God may b impossible it is very possible to objectively study the different sides and know which ones r bs. For me, the churches fit the latter.


Moral Man 18 months ago

I truly feel that God has no reasoning and no common sense, and He is irrational and insane. He is insane in a cruel manner. Why only communicate His message to a handful of unknown authors during the Bronze Age in the Middle East? As I said before, the Bible is vague, ambiguous, unclear, inconclusive, and full of contradictions, and incomprehensible. What a stupid, incompetent, careless, sloppy way of communicating His message. The end results are centuries of disagreement, division, and confusion. Does God want us to be divided and confused, and does God want us to fight and argue among ourselves? Or maybe He just doesn't care one way or the other what we believe? Why cant God communicate with us as we sleep? Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. This pitiful execuse for a God wont even or cant even communicate with us. The Bible and Christianity is a hopeless, contorted, convoluted, contradictory, confusing mess. How can He expect us to understand when He fails to make Himself clear? Fundies believe that those who fail to correctly understand the Bible go to hell.

If Im undecided, uncertain, or confused about what to believe, then this Fundie God will decide for me and throw me into hell. No reasoning, no common sense, no mercy, mo pity, no heart, no morals, and no conscience from this monstrous God.

This world, both the natural world and the manmade world, is a HORROR MOVIE. Its irresponsible, incompetence, immoral, and insane for a God to allow eons of evil, sin, suffering, and death. This is a CRIME AND DISGRACE. Its criminally embarrassing. Allowing horrible diseases such as stroke, aneurysm, heart disease, malaria, ebola, migraine headache, staph infections, tooth decay, meningitis, kidney stone, rabies, etc is inexecusable, unforgivable, disgusting, despicable, disgraceful, deplorable. I cannot, for the life of me, accept such a screwed up world and I cannot accept a God who accepts it. Im more moral, more humane, more merciful, kinder, and wiser than this God we worship. This God cannot manage His creation in a merciful, humane manner and He cannot manage His creation in an intelligent, constructive manner. Violence, cruelty, torture, killing, death, stupidity, insanity, careless, negligence, confusion, incompetence, and destructiveness are His ways. He knows no better. Its criminally embarrassing.

Here are some of the famous people who have written angry, bitter words about this Bible God. Marcion, the Gnostics,David Hume, Thomas Paine, Mark Twain,Robert Ingersoll, Sigmund Freud, Albert Camus, Richard Rubinstein, Lloyd Graham, Steve Allen, Charles Templeton,Christopher Hitchens,Richard Dawkins, Dan Barker, Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Lewis Black, and these are just the famous people. There are many other non famous people who are angry at God. This God is ruining and trashing His own reputation and He is too blind to see it. By allowing evil, sin, suffering and death to continue ad nauseam, ad infinitum, this God is causing people to get angry at Him, and driving people to heresy, apostasy, agnosticism, atheism, paganism, and Satanism. He allows the conditions for us to get angry at Him and to rebel against Him. He allows us to remain in our sins, He allows us to suffer and die by one horrible fate or another, He allows Satan and demons to corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation, and He allows disagreement, division, and confusion over the Bible. This is not love. This is not mercifulness. Its a pitiful execuse for a God. Is there a bigger embarrassment than this?

For the last 24 years I suffer from nightmares nearly everytime I sleep. I sleep during the daytime as well. Depressed people require more sleep, at least in my case. Anyway I have been hearing voices during sleep since April 2004, for the last 11 years. Clairaudience is the phenomena of psychic hearing. Skeptics will say its schizophrenia. See the hubsite Velvetine, hearing voices/hubpages where I make a few comments. Most of these voices have been Satanic in nature and motivation. Last December, while sleeping, a voice tried to convert me to Satanism. When I told it to go away and when I insulted it, it gave me a threat by saying, "Just wait until you die." What is he going to do to me when I die? Was this a person or was this a demon talking to me? Its scary. Why wont God talk to me or why wont angels talk to me when I sleep? All I get are demons and Satanic entities talking to me? Its immoral for God to allow these evil entities to harass me. A weaker person would succumb, but I have been strong and have resisted. But how long do I have to fight like this? Im not Job.

The anger I have for this God is beyond words. This God has no reasoning and no common sense, or He is insane, mentally blind, morally blind. A mentally blind, morally blind being or person is unable to see the cruelty, immorality, insanity, and wrong of what they do. Its a deficient God we have no matter how I look at it and no matter which way you slice it, and this is a win for the Devil.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

But yet you are not strong enough to get pschological help? Yeah, i'm sure they are demons. The demons that cause schizophrenia. The right meds will reduce those demons to nothing. God created the scientists who produced those meds. As much as i despise big pharma and the fda, i wouldn't want to hear those voices. God just might be telling you to go get help and ur ignoring him. He'll turn that evil off.

So you find no value in living through all of this mess? Well the hellers will say we all free willed ourselves into our conditions. Preposterous. And unscriptural.

Now the words eternal and forever have no place in scripture. But immortality is in there. And how great will it be to spend "eternity" learning and becoming more like God? You think it may be worth a little pain? I think so and God knows so. He sufferes while we do. He is "long suffering". That is scriptural.

You remind me of a funny episode of south park. Now kyle is jewish and his rival cartmen is a nasty jew taunting delinqent boy. In this episode cartmen inherited a million dollars and kyle got a painful hemroid and was hospitalized. Thretening to renounce his faith due to gods unfairness his parents told him the story of job. Job was always faithful and was rewarded with a great family and prosperous farm etc. but then God gives satan the power to take it all away. In the show you see his family die his livestock have their heads cut off a job receives painful boils all over. But job remained faithful. The end. Then kyle reaponded by saying that is the most horrible story i have ever heard. That guy never did anything to harm anyone. Anyway at the end justice is handed out to cartmen when he loses everything.

Pretty funny but that's how you seem to feel. What do i say. Suck it up buttercup. Get some help. Its there for people who need it. Read rays sites. Did you start yet? You can find out how Jesus spoke to the holies in that day and they didn't teach anything as blasphamist as what the hellers have taught since constantine.


Moral Man 18 months ago

I have seen therapists and have taken medication for years. My problems are deep rooted and deep seated. I don't know what these voices are. Therapists don't believe in the supernatural. Are these voices clairaudience, or is it schizophrenia? Is it real or imaginary? I don't know. Read the hubsite Hearing voices/hubpages for more detailed information. The fact remains that God is an irresponsible, incompetent, cruel, negligent, insane, unreasoning being. Its not a God I can love and its not a God I can be proud of. Its a God who angers me. Its an embarrassment.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

He angers me too. But i believe ots all for a purpose. Do u take meds for schizophrenia?


Moral Man 18 months ago

I take medication for OCD, depression, chemical imbalance. This illustrates what an incompetent screwup the creator is. Whoever or whatever created us flawed, sinful humans gave us defective bodies, defective brains, a defective, evil, sinful nature; and whoever or whatever created Nature made an awful lot of violence, cruelty, torture, killing, death, defects. Its criminally embarrassing. I think its less depressing to believe that the Devil or demons are to blame or that its all blind, impersonal amoral forces of Nature which are to blame rather than having a conscious, personal God being responsible for such a flawed, screwed up creation.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Well its the only creation there is. I think had He screwed up He would have figured it put by now. Unless the creater of all is just some evil tyrant that enjoys watching humanity screw up. So y does His word speak the opposite? Y would He lie? He didn't. We just don't understand Him yet. Read rays site and stop wasting ur time with this other mess. He teaches quite well and proves everything with scripture.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Deism is the belief that God is remote, aloof, disconnected, uncaring from His creation. Its not an actively evil God but an indifferent, uncaring one. Amoral. Its a deficient God unfit to worship.

Dystheism is the belief that God or the gods are not all good. I seem to favor this view. Its a deficient God.

Maltheism is the belief that God or the gods are totally evil. I disagree with this view. The Bible God and the creator of all things is neither all evil and neither is He all good. The Bible God is BOTH good and evil with a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Since the natural world is a mix of good and evil and since human beings are also a mix of good and evil, I believe the creator/God is also a mix of good and evil, or is morally ambivalent. Its still a deficient God.

Dualism or Dualistic religions such as Gnosticism, Manicheism, and Zoroastrianism believe that God is good but not all mighty and not in total control of the world, and evil and suffering is blamed on the Devil and demons, Nature, and human beings. A weak God is deficient.

Monism believes in a powerful God but this powerful God created, or caused, or allows evil and suffering in His creation. I think this shows some kind of insanity or it shows some kind of cruelty within this God. Again, its a deficient God because it allows evil and suffering. Evil and suffering proves to me that God or the creator is deficient. Am I wrong?

Its up to God to prove to us that allowing eons of evil, sin, suffering, and death is justifiable and that He is all the wonderful mun


Moral Man 18 months ago

I got cut off by the computer. Its up to God to prove to us that allowing eons of evil, sin, suffering and death is justifiable and that He is still at the same time all good, all mighty, all wise, rational, sane, and sovereign. No human being can prove this to me. Why does God remain silent? Why wont He tell us what this unknowable, mysterious plan is? Why keep silent and secret? Why allow us to endlessly speculate and agonize? Why leave us in endless confoundment and confusion? Why leave us in endless suspense and ignorance? Why leave us in endless fear and anxiety? I continue to live in fear and anxiety.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Y wont u just b happy that hell is a myth and that all will b saved? Seriously, i don't care for the education on definitions from the world of the lost. If you don't believe the truth, He aint ready for you to. Ask Him if it is Your will for me to know your truths, please allow me to know them. It's only in his time.


Moral Man 18 months ago

I will be happy when this God starts eradicating diseases. When are we going to get cures for stroke, heart disease, cancer, malaria, ebola? Diseases are an inexecusable evil which ruins and destroys lives. If we don't find cures to these horrible diseases soon, then happiness in this world isn't going to be worth a can of beans. Why is God allowing these horrors to torment and kill? Diseases have been torturing and killing people and animals for thousands to millions of years since prehistoric times. This is a crime and an embarrassment to put it very lightly. Diseases are one of the biggest reasons why the world is the hellhole that it is.

If God doesn't start healing this cursed, broken creation soon, then what hope do we have? By allowing suffering and evil to continue ad nauseam, ad infinitum, the Devil and his minions are having an endless field day and this is a win for the Devil and his minions. Suffering and evil abounds, and the Devil flourishes, and we have a God who allows it. Its pitiful and embarrassing.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

Its temporary. Like a cold sore, like a pimple, like an aching tooth. U put more stock n 2 physical life than u should. Live the best u can and learn truth. Its more than the fundies do.


Moral Man 18 months ago

Are the Gnostics right or are they closer to the truth than mainstream Christianity? Gnostics believe in at least two Gods. Ialdabaoth or the Demiurge is the flawed, inferior God who created this screwed up world. The Demiurge is insane, immoral, amoral, incompetent, and cruel with a Jekyll and Hyde personality. The evils and defects in Nature and the evils, defects, and sins in humans can be blamed on the Demiurge. The true good God is weak and unable to help us, and unable to stop the Demiurge. Some believe that someday the true good God will destroy the Demiurge. The true good God did not create evil. Evil is the creation of the Demiurge who is sometimes equated with the Old Testament God, Yahweh. While I think Gnosticism(aDualistic religion) is a big improvement over the Fundie God, its still disturbing. For one thing the good and evil in Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism is overly simplistic like the Wizard of Oz. The good witch and the bad witch mentality. There are no in betweens, Everyone and everything is either good, or is evil. The real world, as I see it, is ambivalent. There is both good and evil in the same thing, and within the same person. Bees, for instance, are good in pollinating, making honey, are pretty, and their venom can heal certain diseases. They are bad in being aggressive, and their stings cause suffering and death to those who are allergic. Its neither totally good, and its neither totally bad.

I believe that God is both good and evil or has a Jekyll and Hyde personality, and I believe He is insane. My fear is that the Fundie God is real and is going to throw me and billions of others into hell to be tortured forever. Sir Dent on hubpages once wrote that I will end up in hell for making insulting comments about God. By the way, will God forgive those who insult Him and who blaspheme Him? I feel that God is insane and He has no reasoning. This God is an unreasoning, insane, cruel, mentally blind, morally blind monster.


Hell N0 18 months ago Author

I have had many go arounds with sir dentalot. Hes another sundy fundy. Talks about the love of god but a god that demands justice. Same old tripe. I can handle his type. You can't though because u still don't know the truth. Can God forgive ur blasphamies. He already has. But its judgment that awaits. And you are even now experiencing judgment you just don't know it. Most people will require more in the lake of fire. We r all defiant to a certain degree. We will learn to trust God in time. The God of the OT is the Son, Who is the Christ. The Father has not reveiled Himself to us yet. Christ came to reveil the Father. Sundy fundies do not realize this. His death was an example for all of the sacrifices required in the OT laws. Those sacrifices were so the person would be forgiven (they were forgiven anyway). But Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for all time. You have been forgiven already for every sin you will ever commit. But you have not had those sins removed. That will take judgment.

What very few understand is the death commanded by God in the OT was to be a type and shaddow for the death of our carnal mind. You know, the part of your mind that makes you a god hating sinner? Your carnal mind will have to die before u are saved. The Lake of Fire is called the second death. Physical death to the body comes first for most. Few people experience death of the carnal mind while physically alive and i doubt anybody ever had a total carnal mind death. It makes sense when you begin to understand these things. Having a healthy fear of God is perfectly acceptable. But fearing some fabled hell is pointless becuz it does not exist. R u studying rays site?


Moral Man 17 months ago

Im reading Ray's site but I haven't been able to find the Concordance Bible translation. Since I lost my mother, I haven't been going to bookstores nor libraries. The sadness and grief is so intense that I don't have the energy to even leave the house except for going to work, going to the grocery store, and going to my sister's and brother in law's house. Without the help of my sister and brother in law, I could not survive in the house and I would either end up homeless on the street, or end up inside a mental hospital similar to the one in the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, or I would just commit suicide since my life is getting worse and worse. Religious folks say that people who commit suicides end up in hell, and according to Fundies, a person like me who makes insulting comments about God is automatically going to end up in hell whether or not I commit suicide. One way or the other Im going to end up in hell say the Fundies. Sir Dent told me bluntly Im going to hell if I don't repent. In his eyes he thinks he is doing the right thing by warning me that my soul is in danger.

Anyway lets get back to the Bible. I have more questions. In the English translations we have there are many passages in the Bible that I find disturbing. I'll just list a few of them here in chronological order. 1)God kills 70,000 men just because David took a census. Does this make sense? 2) Jesus tells us that any man who doesn't hate his mother and father is unworthy to be his disciple. In other translations, this verse reads Any man who loves father and mother more than me is unworthy to be his disciple. What??? Did Jesus really say such a thing? My parents are the most important thing in my life whether living or dead. My parents come FIRST, Jesus. My family comes FIRST, Jesus. So Jesus is telling us to forsake and disown our parents? Please tell me its not so. Please tell me he didn't say that. That is just disgusting and disturbing. So we're all expected to be ascetics, religious fanatics, masochists, and martyrs like Jesus? This is unrealistic and unreasoning. We're all expected to literally take up a cross and crucify ourselves for Jesus? So committing suicide because one has a horrible life is a sin, but committing suicide FOR Jesus is considered good??? So we're all expected to pluck out our eyes, cut off our hands, and live penniless on the streets like Jesus? Please say its not so. This is SICK. This is INSANE. We're in Looneyville.

I still think that this God is at least partly evil or insane, mentally sick, morally sick, mentally blind, morally blind, monstrously cruel, careless, irresponsible, incompetent, immoral, amoral. Unfit to worship. This world is a horror movie. I cannot accept this and I cannot have blind faith and blind trust in such a God, and I cannot love such a God, and I don't want to spend eternity with such a God. Yes I know, God's ways are unknowable and mysterious and us humans just don't understand. Well if we don't understand then MAKE us understand. Why keep silent and secret? Why cant He communicate with us as we sleep? Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. In other words, its not enough to tell me that I don't understand. PROVE that I don't understand. This is so insane. This God acts as if He is innocent and all we're told is that God's ways are unknowable and mysterious. Well for crying out loud, WHY doesn't He tell us HIMSELF what this unknowable, mysterious plan of His consists of instead of remaining silent and just expecting us to have blind faith and blind trust. A loving, caring God would at least have the courtesy to communicate with us and explain Himself to us. But no this pitiful execuse for a God chooses to remain silent and secret and allows us to endlessly speculate and agonize, and leaves us in endless suspense and ignorance, and leaves us in endless confoundment and confusion. Why? And even when this God does communicate with us humans, He either contradicts Himself by saying different things to different people or He talks in a vague, ambiguous, unclear manner. So even when this God talks to us, He still refuses to answer our questions. "I am that I am," this God tells Moses. What is that supposed to mean? This is gibberish, meaningless mumbo jumbo and doesn't tell me anything and doesn't mean anything to me. We're not going to get any straight clear anwers from this God nor from the confusing, convoluted, contradictory mess which is the Bible..

As far as Im concerned, this God is the biggest sinner and the biggest criminal of all with the exception of the Devil himself. This God is monumentally, unimaginably, immeasurably cruel and insane, and He is insane in a cruel manner. Fundies will say Im going to hell for saying this. Its a cruel, selfish, egomaniacal, narcississtic, immoral, amoral, irresponsible, careless, negligent, incompetent, insane, unreasoning God we're stuck with who has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. I cannot love such a cruel God.


Hell N0 17 months ago Author

I will get to some of that later. Right now i would like you to try something. Get down on your knees and pray to God. Simply say:

God, i ask You in my weak spiritual condition. If it is your will for me at this time, please help me to understand the mysteries of Your perfect word. Help me to find value for my life and to walk in Your ways. But only in Your time.

It's that simple. Yes, of course suicide is a sin and you will be judged severelly if you do such a thing. You arent the only one who hates God and life. A year ago i was livid at God. I hated Him and He new it. Now i've known the truth of universal salvation for almost ten years. But my walk with God has stagnated for a few years now. This is normal. Right now i have a job that's more stessfull and unforgiving than i ever thought possible. It sucks. Im trying to become financially stable with stock option and currency trading. Roadblock after roadblock. Just the idea of staying at my job makes me think about eating a bullet. But i wont. I would hurt too many people doing that and besides, i know God has big plans for me. I know He will save all and i hope i can be one of His chosen. But i want to enjoy life now and dammit, i cant unless i can fire my boss. But i know this pain i experience is so i will enjoy life more later. And even if i walk out of my job, am a failure to myself and family, God will take care of me in time. So it aint just you. But i have an advantage iver you. I know why we have to experience evil and i know salvation will be awsome. Keep reading rays site. It changed my life even though i still fall down.


Moral Man 17 months ago

Thank you for your support and advice. I will try to take your advice and I pray that God forgives me for insulting Him. Hopefully the hatred I have for God will lessen and will turn into love. I hope that Universal Salvation is true. I hope the next life is better than this. I admire your strong faith and trust in God. This hub has been a blessing.


Hell N0 17 months ago Author

You have already been forgiven. It's judgment that we all need. You must always ask that God's will b done. His will is for your happiness, even if His intention for now is that you go through more strife. What's important is that u realize that i. The end, God's will "will" b done.


Moral Man 2 months ago

Im scared. I feel that the Bible God is a Jekyll and Hyde or two face personality. This is also called hypocrisy. He cannot be right if He created diseases, jellyfish, hurricanes, tsunamis. Either He is partly evil or at the very least, He is insane. If He didnt create evil and suffering then He is allowing it, or He fails to prevent it. This is a serious problem and it cannot be ignored. I also pointed out that He is mentally blind and morally blind, immoral or amoral. Something is amiss, and theres no getting around this fact.

Ive pointed out how this God has no reasoning, no common sense, no heart, no pity, no mercy, no morals, and NO conscience. This is a nightmare and horror beyond my worst fears. I fear what kind of horrible death Im going to go through in this earthly life and I fear whats going to happen to me in the next life when I die. The mental burden and emotional burden of believing in a cruel, insane, unreasoning, negligent, incompetent, mentally blind, and morally blind God is too great and too horrible to endure. Have we been put here to be unwilling victims in some kind of sick horror movie?


Hell NO 2 months ago

Hey moral man, wow, just checked in for the first time in what has to be at least a year. Let me start by saying that its good to hear from you. . . . Except i am bothered that your fearful ways have not seened to be modified. And that is sad because God is great and life can be spectacular. Ok, i do not believe in freewill becuz it is ridiculous to say that we made ourselves, birthed ourselves, decided what country we would live in, etc etc. Plus, God put us where we are. But i have learned a lot over the past about the human mind. We have a concious and a subconcsious mind. Our subconcious mind is very very powerful. It causes us to think, act and do the things we do. In animals this is called instinct. Thats all animals really have. But u and i also have a concious mind that gives us the ability to program or reprogram our subconcious controlling mind. Its time for you to learn this for yourself and how to master it. Be one of the few that takes this initiative. Read psycho cybernetics, think and grow rich and i think mind power is another great book. Everything is free to listen to on youtube. Look for talks by bob proctor, tony robbins, the late napolian hill, or earl nightingail. You live by fear. U have no faith. When i say to imagine that you are already saved, i dont speak as the masses of churches because you will not be saved until the second resurection. Imagine "as if" and that what if is whatever you desire. Trust me. Fear is the worst thing there is and will lead you through the hell u r afraid of but doesnt exist. I cant keep typing on my phone but please, listen to those i mentioned. Read those books. Meditate only on whatever success or spiritual prosperity u desire. Hell is a hoax. But the human mind is marvelous and u may understand scripture better when u learn these principles. Go do this now. Or i will reach through this phone and shake u. Faith, confidence, fearlessness, and universal salvation are all very scriptural. Move it my brother.

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