The Pastoral Office of the Modern Church is not Biblical

The head pastor is a fundamental figure within the "church" who is met with praise, accolades, and reliance upon to dispel the Word of God to the masses. He is most often on the top of the hierarchical ladder, or status as the main focal figure to render out theological interpretations within the "church" institution. He/she is often trained and graduated as a professional from a seminary who has met the criteria, or qualifications to maintain their position.


What would happen if the office of the head pastor was removed from the "church" altogether?


Could the "church" still function, or would it completely dissolve without a prominent figure to man the helm?


What may come as a surprise is that the pastoral function among the Early Ekklesia looks quite different to the the office of the head pastor in the modern "churches" today. The facts of history and Scriptural context will serve as evidence that this is the truth. Before you read any further, it is important to leave your personal feelings at the door because many will have friends and family who fill the head pastoral office somewhere. This is not meant as an attack on them as individuals, but a critical examination the office of the head pastor.

"Specially ordained and qualified"
"Specially ordained and qualified"



And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers – Ephesians 4:11



From the only singular verse that appears in the New Testament, there are some important things to consider.

The word pastor is used in plural form. This means that there is no Scriptural evidence that there was a singular senior head pastoral practice among the Early Ekklesia. Pastor is the Latin word for shepherd, and the Greek word for pastors is rendered as poimenas, which also means shepherds. This would mean that a pastor is not a professional title, but a metaphor for one of the many functions of the church. A shepherd is a person who cares for and nurtures the people of God, but not within the context of a professional hierarchical title. Upon closer inspection of Ephesians 4:11, it appears that man has added to and distorted the true definition, description, and function of a pastor, which has created the office of the head pastor in the institutionalized "churches" today.

The man-made idea of a prominent head pastor comes from a desire of people to have someone revered to bring them to God who is specially trained and is to stand out from others within the "church."



But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! - Numbers 11:26-29


These verses here give an example of Moses opposing hierarchical or "special" positions that would suppress all of God’s people from using their giftings to the specially qualified.



I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. – 3 John 9-10



But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. – Revelation 2:6


These are the words of Jesus Christ who was opposed to Nicolaitans, which in Greek means “conquering the people.” He was opposed to making distinct hierarchical classes of people among the ekklesia who are considered prominent by lording themselves over others.

The definition of the pastoral office in our western society is not a Biblical concept, but a man-made one that is a distortion of a gifting. The Early Ekklesia were led solely by the headship of Jesus Christ where His body was recognized by men who were of all equal standing. People were recognized by their spiritual maturity, not by their hierarchical elitism. The apostles did not reside as permanent fixtures, but were temporal as “church planters” who moved where God called them to oversee for a time.

The deviation from the biblical pastoral office can be traced to Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107) and the role of the bishop. The bishop was given complete authority and required absolute obedience in the "church" system. In the third century, Cyprian of Carthage made more distinct classifications of Christians with the terms clergy and laity. He was a pagan orator who became a “Christian” who did not abandon the pagan traditions, but incorporated them. The position of bishop eventually evolved to the head of the church and the delegated responsibilities went to the presbyter.The presbyter evolved into the Catholic priest as the hierarchical structure of the "church" broadened. By the fourth century, deacons took a role under the presbyters, and under them were the laymen. By the time of the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century, the Catholic Church practices were questioned; the bishop’s office and the priesthood was reduced to the presbyter. What the Protestants did not do was question the status classifications between clergy and laity, but kept them with their own classification system. There are those who are “special”,“called”, and who must be “ordained” into a “ministry.” In fact there is really no distinction between the duties of the Catholic priest and a Protestant pastor except for slightly reformed office.

Higher calling, higher class.
Higher calling, higher class.
Ordination rite.
Ordination rite.
Us and them.
Us and them.

The Early Ekklesia were a participatory body, but the "church" sysyem requires a ruling single pastor (sola pastora). Likewise, the bishop was raised to a status where all power and authority from him was absolute. Ignatius said, “He that honors the bishop is honored of God.”

Fallen man always has the urge for someone to mediate between them and God. We can see this in Exodus when the Israelites wanted Moses to be their mediator for everything. Today, we can see that the pastor takes on a similar role, and conducts everything from baptism, marriages, sermons, and controlling influence over other activities within the institutional "church."

The hierarchical system infiltrated the "church" as a result of the influential Greco-Roman culture. The "church" had become an institution with “official” people doing ministry. The true Scriptural ekklesia, which was led by the Holy Spirit was functional and shared by all believers, but soon became a thing of the past. Pagan organizational patterns have infiltrated and became the backbone of what is the modern institutional "church."

A true follower of Jesus Christ should understand that what a person does in everyday life is sanctified by God, there is no need for a higher calling into the “ministry” versus a worldly vocation. The dichotomy between what is “sacred” and what is “worldly” is a pagan conception. There are no grounds for ordained spiritual elitism because every believer has the discernment from God to recognize those who have particular giftings that God has given them. Among the Early Ekklesia, the term “ordain” did not mean to be put into an official title, but rather an affirmation of the gifting and character of an individual that is recognized. It was a blessing pertaining to the function, not a rite. Ordination into office stems from pagan rites by empowering an individual through divine streams to become venerable, honorable, and separated. It is the syncretism of Old Testament priesthood with Greek hierarchy. In contrast, each person who was part of the Early Ekklesia did not set themselves higher than one another, but in humility served each another.



Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. – 1 Peter 5:2-3

"Sheeple"
"Sheeple"

You will find nowhere in the New Testament where preaching, baptizing, marriage, etc... was limited to those with "special" powers and authority. We all have immediate access to God; the true ekklesia are a collective of believers that share the Word of God with one another, not via a singular paid mediator to a passive audience. According to John Calvin, “The pastoral office is necessary to preserve the church on earth in a greater way than the sun, food, and drink are necessary to nourish and sustain the present life.” It is clear today that most "church" institutions have taken John Calvin’s model of church, but is in no way, shape, or form the model of the Early Ekklesia, which apostles had planted.

Both the Catholic and Protestant practices of "church" are built on the same human ideologies and traditions. The modern pastoral office has become an obstacle to the true functioning of the ekklesia. True functioning believers of Jesus Christ are not meant to be simply ears to hear the "very words of God" that are spewed from the pulpit every Sunday morning.

The Greek word for minister is diakonos, which means servant. It has become incorrectly synonymous with a pastor who is in a professionalized salaried position.


What has the office of the head pastor of the modern "church" done to followers of Jesus Christ that can be see in the modern "churches" today?


What really stands out is the division of Christians into separate classes where the special, or more privileged can only serve Jesus Christ in certain ways. The man-made system suffocates the rest of the people into becoming complacent to a one-man-ministry that reaches to mute audience. In contrast, the Early Ekklesia encouraged every member of the body of Christ to function with a right and privilege in the church assembly.


Are you sick and tired of being a spectator who feels coerced and obligated to sing, raise your hands, take notes, and throw money in the throats of the offering plate (1 Peter 2).


Unfortunately, the office of the head pastor in the modern "church" has circumvented the very headship of Jesus Christ because it has taken the centrality and the functional headship away from other believers. When Jesus Christ is truly the headship, it manifests as freedom and openness with everyone contributing, and all body parts functioning as they should.


The professional, modern pastor has become slave to the office, which oppressively manifest in many ways, such as emotional breakdown, marital issues, stress, “plastic fantastic”, burnout, and depression just to name a few. This is not the result of the pastor, but the effect of the modern office.

Scripture does not support one sole individual to wear so many hats at one time. There is a high expectation and obligation to entertain, "tickle ears," and make everyone feel good. This is artificial Christianity at its best, which is to be blunt is dishonest and deceptive. The modern head pastor can be likened to a Hollywood star who wins an Oscar for the primary role as portraying someone who is always spiritual, cheerful, perfectly dressed, and disciplined in all areas of life. The unapproachable and unquestioning attitude exposes the corrupt and political nature of the modern office, which often leads to isolation from being AMONG the people (laity) to just those who are OVER the people (clergy) within the institutional "church" system.They often have no real substance outside of that group.

The evidence reveals that the office of the head pastor by how it functions in the modern "church" is unsupported and non-existent in Scripture.



More by this Author


Comments Appreciated 110 comments

Porshadoxus profile image

Porshadoxus 3 years ago from the straight and narrow way

If what you say is true, what is your proposal for the continued life and growth of the local body?


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Porshadoxus,

("...what is your proposal for the continued life and growth of the local body?")

Firstly, it is by understanding the distinction between the institutional church (foundation on man-made traditions), and the organic church (founded on Jesus Christ) of the New Testament. If all of the man-made traditions of church institution were thrown out, it would crumble like a house of cards.

The pastoral office is just the tip of the iceberg. I hope to dig deeper by clarify more in my next few articles. Everything from the church building, worship, the sermon, the pastoral office, dressing up, music, communion, and program are all parts of the institutional church practice that did not have their roots in the Early Church, but from syncretising with secular ideologies.

The true church will not grow until Jesus Christ is put at the head and all members equally function as one body with each part put in use. The worn out, well intentioned, ignorant religious traditions and habits get in the way of that. Most of the church routine of today is nowhere to be found in Scripture, but suffocates life and freedom. There is a difference between the accolades of man versus Jesus Christ as a sign of true growth.

What can be found in the early Church was an assembly of people who were part of a community where Jesus Christ was at the center. Everyone participated outside the confines of man-made agendas, denominations, programs, rites and rituals. It is an understanding that we don't go to church, but we are the church. Worship is not what we do in the building on Sunday, but who we are and what we do for Jesus Christ.

Answering your one question would be a whole other article in itself. What I can say is that the New Testament gives details on how the Early Church functioned and gathered. What I can do is give you some Scripture verses which you can compare and contrast with the practices of the institutional church.

(Acts 20:20, Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19)

(1 Corinthians 14:26; Hebrews 10:24-25)

(1 Corinthians 12-14)

(Galatians 6:10; 1 Timothy 5:1-2; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 4:15, Romans 12:13; 1 Corinthians 12:25-26; 2 Corinthians 8:12-15)

(Acts 20:17, 28-29; 1 Timothy 1:5-7)

(Acts chapts. 13-21)

(Matthew 23:8-12)

(Matthew 20:25-28; Luke 22:25-26)

Please read the Scripture verses and let me know what you think.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 3 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

PandN,

Could you explain what is meant by I Timothy 3:1-8? Thank you.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

1 Timothy 3:8

The word, "diakonos," which is rendered to "deacon" in the English translations mean "to serve" in Greek. The "deacon" was an appointed as servant in the Early Church who served the Lord and ministered as a *servant*.

As history attests, the Roman Catholic and Protestant church institutions all had, and still have their hierarchical system of government . The "deacon" is an official ruling office, but when "diakanos" is properly translated to "servant," it is no more an ordained position of honor among men. The meaning of "diakanos" does not change whether it is in an appointed, or non-appointed position.

In fact, the word "office" as seen in Scripture is not a noun, but a verb (Vines Expository Dictionary). There is a clear distinction between serving (verb) and an ordained position (noun).

The "office of deacon" it is often misunderstood as an official ruling position within the unbiblical hierarchical system of church government, which has its roots in Roman Catholicism.

It is Biblical to have appointed servants (deacons) in the church, but it is unBiblical to elect men as officers and call them deacons and claim that it is Biblical.

Some of the Biblical characteristics of an appointed servant can be found in Acts 6:1-7.

In Acts 6:2, the Apostles called the church together and said, "It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables." The Apostles were asking the church to appoint someone to "serve tables." The word "diakoneo" fits into this discription. In Luke 10:40, Martha complained to the Lord Jesus that, "my sister hath left me to "serve"(diakoneo) alone." This is the same word used in 1 Timothy 3:10, 13 which was transliterated "use the office of a deacon." The Early Church understood clearly that they were appointing servants/ helpers to "take care of this business," which in the case above was waiting on tables.

Two of the men appointed as servants in Acts 6 were Philip and Stephen who achieved prominence as preachers, but they were never given an official professional titles of deacon; the reason is that there is no such thing. In the NT, there are the list of gifts that are related to ministering and leadership, but you won't find the mention of deacons (1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11).


lifegate profile image

lifegate 3 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

I'm sorry PandN, I meant I Timothy 3:1-7. I accidentally added verse 8 in as well. But thanks for your commentary on verse 8 just the same!


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

As I addressed in this article, there are the man-made traditions throughout history that have added to these services. The whole purpose of this article in not to negate the different roles of people in the church, but to provide the historical evidence of the additional rites, "ordinations", titles, offices, etc.. which man-made traditions have added to the modern church.

I would ask you what the verses in 1 Timothy 3:1-7,8 have to do with the context of this article?

What is it that you would like to discuss concerning the distinction between the pastor and the pastoral office, the history, and the traditions that have been added to these roles?

There are the various functional roles of people in the Early Church. A plurality of these gifts are necessary so that there can be a sharing of responsibilities. No one man wears all the hats.

Simply put, I Tim 3 gives the requirements, or qualifications for these men. "Bishop" being singular is no more significant than if I told you the qualifications of a doctor would mean that each hospital can only have only one doctor.

"Bishop" is the meaning that the various denominations, sects and cults impart to it. How does a church qualify a bishop, I bet they have added their own professional qualifications to the list in 1 Timothy 3?


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

Brilliant hub! Most of the "churches" no longer have any resemblance to the early churches where everyone participated and were not expected to be complacent and preached at. They learnt to share the word amongst one another and respect each other. Hence their communities were "alive" and grew rapidly. Each was able to express their love of their Lord publicly and they partook of decisions etc. Have vote up, interesting and awesome.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 3 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

I agree with you and just wondered what your take was on a portion of Scripture that seems to indicate church leadership. I believe someone needs to oversee the work just as you had mentioned. I also believe without a doubt that Jesus must be the Head and that the church should use their gifts to share in the work of the ministry. The Holy Spirit speaks through many not just one in different ways. Thanks for taking the time to answer.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

excellent article. its time more people understand these truths that that have been removed from the church by the hirelings that run most of them. Leadership is a position of absolute servitude not a "position" and no one is above any other in the body.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Shoforcall,

Thank-you for the affirmation. It is not a popular subject, but an important one. When Jesus Christ is allowed to be the Head of the church, the man-made hindrances disappear and what is revealed is something completely different. Tradition is a very hard thing to break free from, but allows us as followers of Jesus Christ to experience what freedom of worship is all about. Church is not brick and mortar, but made up of living stones. You cannot go somewhere you are.


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

Hi P+N, I felt myself being called out of the church (building/hierarchy) some time ago. I have good fellowship with other brothers and sisters. e.g.: Ive had a brother and sister staying since Friday who have little materially but have hearts that are overflowing with their love for the son of the Living God. We have shared laughter, tears, joy, prayer and much sharing of the gospel. It is so edifying to the Body of Christ. What a treat, what a joy. Wish 'church' held a candle to this on Days of Worship.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

I would encourage and challenge you as a brother in Christ to take a critical look at how the pastoral office has divided the church community into first and second hand citizens, where some are more privileged than others in serving Jesus Christ.

If you are the giant mouth to tiny ears every Sunday morning, then the congregation is being suffocated to mute spectators, taking sermon notes, and putting money into the offering plate.

...you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. - 1 Peter 2:5

When people look at a pastor like a doctor, lawyer or any other professional service, it takes away from the fact that every believer is a priest. The pastoral office sets itself to displace the headship of Jesus Christ. Professionalism of the pastoral office dictates behavior on how to dress, speak, and act in front of others, which creates an artificial demeanor.

The headship of Jesus Christ is manifested as free, open, and participatory, where every member functions. If this is not happening, then man has traded God's purposes for man's way of fulfilling them.

Are you a fixture, or a servant?

The church planters of the New Testament left once the foundation of Jesus Christ had been laid; otherwise, people would look to them instead of Jesus Christ, which would hinder *every* member from functioning.

There is nothing wrong with a functioning pastor, but the problem today is that the pastor cannot focus on their particular gifting because there are trying to fit into so many other shoes.

Can a pastor really put his cape on every day and be a super hero for the masses?

When someones sole identity is tied up in their position/ title, then they are a threat to themselves and to the body of Christ.

“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.” - Luke 20:46-47

My comment isn't an an attack on you, but a desire for the name of Jesus Christ to be glorified in your gifting and all the other living stones in His body.

God Bless!


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Shorforcall,

It is refreshing to hear a living stone enjoying the community and company of a fellow sister in Christ. There is so much that we can learn from each other by functioning the way God has truly intended.

The liturgy on Sunday morning in the brick and mortar building is set on the cornerstone of man. Living stones are not bound to the man-made agenda, but the freedom of the movement of the Holy spirit, which is built on the cornerstone of Jesus Christ.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Celafoe,

I'm glad you understand the distinction between the office (noun) and serving (verb).

So the last will be first, and the first last.” - Matthew 20:16

Thank-you for your comment.


Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

Don't Taze Me Bro 3 years ago from Tazeland Islands

The problem with this hubpage, a mistake many hubbers make (sometimes purposely) is that to state a premise as fact which is often questionable at best and a lie at the least and then go onto present evidence for the premise without presenting the other side accurately or often not at all. In this case the premise is "What may come as a surprise is that the pastoral office does not exist in the Early Church." and the inaccuracy is that "The facts of history and Scriptural context will serve as evidence that this is the truth."

P&N - What you neglect to say is the title, pastor, is of Old Testament origin (as is preacher and elder). Although you are correct that the only reference to pastors by name in the New Testament is in Ephesians 4:11 to say the pastoral office in our western society is not a Biblical concept is simply false. Since pastor's duties are not defined in the one New Testament verse that uses the word so we must look elsewhere for evidence.

In Jeremiah 10:21, the pastors are condemned because they have disobeyed the Lord and "all their flocks shall be scattered." Jeremiah 23:1states, "Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD." We find in the next verse that it is their job to "feed my [God's] people." Clearly, shepherds are those who keep, care for, and protect the sheep. In the Old Testament Pastors are the leaders of the people of Israel.

So what is a New Testament pastor? We know that the position of a pastor is a New Testament office (Ephesians 4:11). We also know that a pastor is one who acts as a shepherd in caring for and feeding the sheep so we need to find a New Testament office that has as its duties the caring for and feeding of the sheep and we will have identified the pastor. Again, the scriptures are clear. In 1 Peter 5:1-4, Peter gives an exhortation to the elders (v.1). He reminds them: "Feed the flock of God which is among you" (v.2). He also instructs them to be "ensamples to the flock" (v.3). Then, he reminds them of their responsibility to "the chief Shepherd" (v.4). The chief Shepherd is obviously Jesus Christ. By simply logic, we understand that those who care for the flock under the supervision of the chief Shepherd are under-shepherds. And, since a pastor is a shepherd, we can identify a pastor as an elder. This proof can be duplicated in the sermon of Paul in Acts 20. In this chapter, Paul calls the Ephesians elders together (Acts 20:17) and gives them special instructions. His instructions include Acts 20:28-29 - "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." What do we call someone who oversees a flock? He is a shepherd. And, what is another name for a shepherd? A pastor. Yet, in this passage, Paul is speaking to the elders. Therefore, we know that the elders are pastors. Take the epistles of Timothy and Titus, they are called pastoral because they give special instructions to two young men who were themselves ruling over churches. pastoral, meaning that which concerns shepherds and their work, was already a word. It was only natural to apply this word to the epistles of Timothy and Titus. I have paraphrased this information from http://www.learnthebible.org/pastor-scriptural-in- and all I have to say is it seems very convenient that you left this point of view and these scriptures out of your hub. Probably just an oversight as I don't think you would really want to present an opinion on Biblical doctrine without examining all the evidence.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

its clear you have drunk the kool aid


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Don't Taze Me Bro,

You are putting up a straw man and have ignored and exaggerated the context of my position.

Your reference to Jeremiah 10:21 only affirms my position within the context of this article.

The issue is not the pastor, but the office of the pastor in the modern churches. The OT evidence of "pastor" is irrelevant because it does not apply to Church today. What does apply is that the Early Church was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that is where the evidence in the Bible starts to apply the proper context of this article. Using the Old Testament as evidence is the same as promoting tithing when it is clear the ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. The evidence is not applicable with the functioning of the New Testament church, which is applicable to all peoples who are followers of Jesus Christ.

If I didn't make myself clear enough already, there are distinctions. The modern pastor in most churches today are salaried filled positions. The pastoral office has become about titles, positions, and status. It is an illusion and deception to believe that a pastor should have a hierarchical title because he is of God's elite who specially anointed and educated as appointed CEO from the board members to oversee all the affairs among Christians.

Furthermore, I cannot tell if you agree or disagree with the article. You quote Scripture versus, but within the context of this article I am not saying that the pastor should cease to exist or never has existed. What I am saying as that the office of the pastor and its function today in the modern church does not equate with New Testament principles, but instead is steeped in man-made tradition.

The New Testament was not founded on a business structure where the CEO Pastor dictates all the decisions within the corporate structure of the "four walls." It should be clear that a pastor is not about having a parking spot near the front door of the church building with a special plaque with his name on it, and a salary coupled with medical and holiday benefits. Doesn't this look like a management position in corporate America? Wake up people!

The true church is not a building, but a living organism that consists of "living stones." Man-made tradition has changed the gifts, titles, and offices into something completely different.

A Biblical title is descriptive of an activity of a servant. People who serve are AMONG the people, not OVER the people. The modern church puts out a shopping list of hirelings to fill a role based on man-made standards.

Titus appointed elders, but it was a public recognition of what already was. It was already natural with their assembly AMONG the people that certain gifts were apparent. The qualifications were evident in their lives, it was not from some diploma, but from CHARACTER. There wasn't an advertisement put out to fill a position in the local paper.

God has given each believer gifts and they don't have to be recognized by some personality profile, self-focus group, or feel good psychology that is sold at the local church "flea market." Trying to put labels that we have categorized, interpreted, and canned for each other does not help what we already are.

Just like an apple tree produces apples, the gift of the “pastor” is outlined in Scripture. The modern church is trying to produce peanuts from apple trees and the effects are apparent.

True leaders naturally evolve from within a group. Paul recognized elders after a time of becoming rooted and established in Jesus Christ. What the modern church does is appoints a dominant leader and defers to the apostate functioning of the traditions of man.

I myself will not drink the Kool-Aid of the misapplication of dominant salaried offices and become addicted to the celebrity statuses of leaders. I choose to focus on Jesus Christ and desire to be a part of EVERYONE functioning and taking responsibility TOGETHER with the gifts God has given, rather than the "select" appointed few.


Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

Don't Taze Me Bro 3 years ago from Tazeland Islands

I raise no straw man and my only comment about your context is that you left out the old testament. As I said I have paraphrased this information from http://www.learnthebible.org/pastor-scriptural-in-... which cites alot you ignored and all I have to say is it seems very convenient that you left this point of view and these scriptures out of your hub. And you did. To make what I said about anything else is you raising a straw man, and a prolix one at that.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Ok,

Please clarify the "convenience" in application to the context. How does the OT apply? Instead of parroting from a website, please explain in your own words what the significance of pastor in the OT is relevant to the theme. What text from this article do you disagree with and why.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

donttazeme

the site you got your false info from is full of false info.

It's a "pastor" justifying him position and it is scripturally incorrect.

You cannot equate the new testament church to the OT temple.

that is what Jesus came to get rid of. you have to use new testament scripture.

Points of view are not scripture. and can not be used to confirm a scriptural point, only scripture in context can be used for that.

this article is scripturally correct.

any man using "pastor" as a title or position does not understand the scriptures. and any man using the title "senior pastor" is usurping the place of Christ


SiberianWolf profile image

SiberianWolf 3 years ago from MidWest

i admit i skimmed through this... but i like the way you showed that the word 'pastor' means shepherd... and we should know that there is only one shepherd

Matthew 23:34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill"

We're only supposed to follow Jesus... Not paul or anyone else... Peace


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

amen


Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

Don't Taze Me Bro 3 years ago from Tazeland Islands

Why do you keep trying to put the onus on me - My position is clear, mainly that scripture cannot be taken out of context of the entire Bible, old and new testament included to create a doctrine and I chose that link because it explains it best, better than I can in my own words and represents a source rather than just something I made up..

The onus is on you to answer the question I posed. Why did you deliberately exclude the old testament references and their meaning in defining pastor? That is what I mean by convenient, convenient because that context doesn't lend the credibility that you want to acscribe to your view of the meaning of pastor, or else, as I suggested, mabe it was just an unintentional oversight on your part. I don't know which and you certainly have gone to great lengths attacking my comment rather than simply stating why you feel the old testament is so irrelevant you didn't include it in your analysis. Tell me whether or not you think all the old testament verses are relevant and I will explain further.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Don't Taze Me Bro,

("Why did you deliberately exclude the old testament references and their meaning in defining pastor?")

There was no deliberate intention. Quite simply it is because the Old Covenant was fulfilled by what Jesus Christ did on the cross. All Christians are under the New Covenant, which was established by the Early Church. The context of this article is based on that; there is no need to go back any farther.

(...My position is clear, mainly that scripture cannot be taken out of context of the entire Bible, old and new testament included to create a doctrine ...)

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8:13

This article is about making a distinction between the role of a pastor in the Early Church versus the role of the pastor in the modern churches today.


Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

Don't Taze Me Bro 3 years ago from Tazeland Islands

WRONG. Totally wrong and I really have to wonder how a Christian can come up with that sort of viewpoint because Jesus himself says it is not true. Josh McDowell says it best when he says:

...the strongest argument comes from the Lord Jesus himself. As God in human flesh, Jesus speaks with final authority. And his testimony regarding the Old Testament is loud and clear.

Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).

When dealing with the people of his day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31); ‘Yea; and have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou has prepared praise for thyself”?’ (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and ‘Have you not read what David did?’ (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and he trusted it totally.

Throughout the Gospels, we find Jesus confirming many of the accounts in the Old Testament, such as the destruction of Sodom and the death of Lot’s wife (Luke 17:29, 32) the murder of Abel by his brother Cain (Luke 11:51), the calling of Moses (Mark 12:26), and the manna given in the wilderness (John 6:31–51).

The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Don't Taze Me Bro,

The verses you quote reference Jesus Christ who adhered to the Old Law until He was nailed to the cross thereby fulfilling it. I don't deny that the Old Testament accounts are correct. The Old Covenant is part of God's inspired Word, but it is important apply the proper context of Scripture and the audience it was speaking to at the time. Jesus taught the Law, because the New Covenant did not go into effect until after He died and rose from the dead. The primary purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead to Jesus Christ.

Jesus fulfilled the law, by living in obedience to its demands. The Lord Jesus also fulfilled the second demand of the Law by dying for our sins. The law demanded death for anyone who did not live in obedience to it, and He died on behalf of everyone who failed to obey the law. In this context the Lord Jesus also fulfilled the law. When Jesus said that He came to fulfill, uphold and establish the law, He did so by teaching it, living in accordance with its demands, and dying on behalf of all those who failed through their sin.

When Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law and that it would not pass away until all things were fulfilled, He asserted that the Law was going to remain in effect for the purpose of showing people their need for salvation. Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law, and He did so by living a life in total obedience to the Law, and by dying for us who did not live in total obedience to the Law. In addition to fulfilling the demands of the Law, Jesus fulfilled the prophetic foreshadowings and inferences that were presented in the Law. The Law is still in effect and should be used for its intended purpose. Using it for purposes other than its intended purpose is to distort the intent of the Law and deceive people from the truth of the New Covenant.

The Old Testament lays the foundation for Jesus Christ dying for our sins. The New Testament is about the redeeming work of Jesus Christ which is the Gospel message. The Early Church is established from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, the context of this article makes the distinction between the pastors of the Early Church in the New Testament with the pastoral office of the modern church.

It seems the other commentators here grasp the context.

If you reread the first part of the article, it clarifies the article for you.

I will quote it here for you:

"What may come as a surprise is that the pastoral office does not exist in the Early Church. The facts of history and Scriptural context will serve as evidence that this is the truth."

1. The context of the Early Church is communicated.

2. The facts of history pertaining to pastoral offices that proceed the early Church are referenced.

This article was not written so that it would appeal to everyone, nor will it accommodate those who want it to be something else.


Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

Don't Taze Me Bro 3 years ago from Tazeland Islands

We are talking about the definition of a term used in the Bible and as a matter of fact you have made that the starting point of your hub. Any term used in the Bible cannot be defined without considering how it is used throughout the entire Bible which lasttime I checked included the old and the new testaments. You cannot define it for your own convenience by picking and choosing one verse and ignoring the others no matter how you choose to rationalize it. This is just an accepted and proven fact followed by anyone who is a credible Bible theologian.

You have already made it clear you do not ascribe to that practice so anyone who thinks as you do can feel free to single out, cherry pick, scripture verses to make a case for almost anything. Therefore, whether your conclusions are right or wrong you have arrived at them by ignoring vital relevant information whether you see it as relevant or not and because you have bastardized the process. It is obvious from the way you have couched your entire hub you have started from a personal point of view that you despise what you envision as the church's modern treatment of pastors and them of their office and then looked only for scripture you could interpret to support your point of view.

"It seems the other commentators here grasp the context."

Ah, so all you are interested in is judging your results by a few commenter's approval? while we all know comments like these are not usually scrutinizing comments but people who think they agree with your conclusions. A better description of your reference to "grasping the context" would be the blind leading the blind.

There is no need to further this discussion because I have shown and had to explained multiple times where you are in error and it is very clear you disagree and how you disagree so maybe it's time we just agree to disagree and let readers decide for themselves. I'm glad to let you have the last word, or should I say words. Go for it.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 3 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

If more Christians would quit arguing and do the work God has called us to, somebody might actually make a difference in the world - just my opinion.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

nice namby pamby churchy answer.

But discussion and dissemination of truth is much more valuable


Porshadoxus profile image

Porshadoxus 3 years ago from the straight and narrow way

not if you're gonna be rude about it


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

truth hurts sometimes. Christianity is being abused all the time and it seems most people do not care. The scriptures are important and properly understanding them is vital. The foolishness of worrying about being politically correct has run its course. There is nothing wrong with saying what needs to be said when people offer foolish solutions to serious problems. This particular discussion is a very good one and if that person had understood what is going on here he should have stayed out since he was not involved. But instead he used the cover each others butt church idea instead of caring about truth. Truth is most important. I have no patience with such and neither did Jesus. Check the money changers and the words to the hp


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

Well celafoe,

I do hope you are not going to be sarcastic and rude about me partaking in this conversation now as well. The two examples you use regarding Jesus, above, are very different to what is going on here. Discussions are all well and good if they can be held in a loving way that is edifying to our Lord. After all, God himself said in Isaiah, Come let us reason together. But this is not edifying. I have just gone back and read through the comments again and what I notice is that at no time has P+N become personal or attacking. Just continued stating the discussion at hand. I cannot say the same for other comments on here. Nowhere in scripture do I read that this is OK. May I refer you to my most recent hub: Our Earthly Weapon: The Sword or the towel. There, we really see how Jesus set us an example of how to treat one another.


Question All 3 years ago

Here we have the battle between the Pastor and the disgruntle parishioner.

There is nothing wrong with having a person called a pastor or whatever name you like to use to lead a church. There are plenty of examples in the Old and New Testament of church leaders. I believe that this hub contains a misstated argument. The author is obviously dissatisfied with the current church structure. Count me in the same camp.

What should really be discussed here is how so many pastors today act just like the religious leaders of Jesus' day. They need to take to heart the rebuke Jesus gave in Mat 23 as mentioned by the author.

My complaint is how so many pastors think they are so special, that they have the same authority as the apostles. That they must perform the

baptisms, communion, forgiveness and sermon lectures. We the sheep must just follow their unquestionable guidance where the current church service dedicates a large portion of time for the pastors to lecture us.

Let me give some examples of how pastors have abused their authority and displayed their arrogance with their perceived knowledge and understanding of scripture that is unquestionable by us parishioners.

I have heard a pastor deliver a sermon lecturing the whole congregation on his authority after someone privately had a question on his authority.

Some pastors believe that they will continue their job in heaven.

In a bible class I have been told by a third person to stop arguing with a person because he is a pastor.

After a discussion with a childhood friend that became a pastor where I posed some challenging theological questions, I was told that I need to be more humble.

I have heard a pastor state to a large assembly that we can't just read the Bible, that we need an educated person to explain it to us.

In my life I have only complained to a pastor about the sermon on one occasion. That was last Good Friday after the pastors had failed to preach the sermon on the greatest act of Jesus, his death for our sins. This was the second year in a row that both Maundy Thursday and Good Friday sermons totally ignored what was special about that day. My

email complaint was never answered or acknowledged in any way.

I could go on as many others could also. We are all sinful and I do not wish to slander people that do love the Lord and dedicate their lives to serving him. In the same sense pastors need to honor the power of the Holy Spirit and how it works in all people with just the words of scripture. We don't need a pastor but they are helpful.

Again let me restate. The problem is not with the job of a pastor. The problem is with how so many pastors perform their job. They need to take heed the warning in James 3:1

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

God Bless you all.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Well DTMBro! It appears, besides you, I guess Question All doesn't "grasp the context" of this hub either, to quote the author.

The last time I pointed out that a hubber was using only two scriptures out of the context of 16 other scriptures throughout the old and new testaments to make a point he first tried to demean me for not sharing the scriptures. Then when I told him that the link I had already posted with my comment (which he must not have even checked) was a listing of all the scriptures with their meaning he simply deleted my comments with no explanation - so I looked at the comments section of his hub (as it was an older hub with many comments) and realized, that he probably deleted any comment that disagreed with him because all that was left were akolades for him agreeing with them.

At least you were allowed to make your point clear (not withstanding his tortured resistance to the simple point you clearly made).


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Due to the nature of the comments, I have edited some of the wording in this article, and have changed the title. If you have any more thoughts, or critiques, I do appreciate all points of view.

I would like to clarify that the pastor is a spiritual gift of shepherding and having spiritual oversight, but not condone the modern method of the "Big Boss" syndrome. Spiritual care is very important, but what has happened is that the institutionalized church, which is the "four walls" has replaced the "living stones." The ministry has become more about the physical building, overhead, maintenance, and the many other things and has drawn the pastor away from the sole responsibility of spiritual care as a shepherd.

God indicted the pastors in the Old Testament because they allowed spiritual degradation. The result was that Israel and Judah went into captivity. When there is no accountability, corruption will eventually manifest within the church.

When the pastor becomes the KingPin, or to the other extreme a puppet of the corporate church board, the man-made tradition takes precedence. There are to be no KingPins or puppets in the genuine church. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, not the head pastor. Pastoring is about fellowship and stewardship with the importance to protect the flock from false Gospels and teachings. Without spiritual guidance of God's Word from pastors in the church, it will become apostate. The effects can be seen today in the modern churches and have taken on the spirit of the Antichrist by incorporating pagan forms of worship and man-made ideologies.

When is a pastor ever removed for failing to keep the flock pure? Almost never because the church is more about becoming politically correct than following and obeying the Word of God.

If the church goes back to the biblical paradigm of spiritual rule and structure, then we may see God’s blessing come once again upon many churches. When a pastor is an unchallenged KingPin, or a puppet, the church will become spiritually dead and oppressive. The pastor does not define the church, Jesus Christ does!

How can a pastor even know what to preach if he is OVER the people rather than AMONG them? Has your pastor ever come and visited you at your home to see how you are doing and what your needs may be?

The modern pastor is too involved with board meetings, conferences, and all the other peripheral work apart from the biblical role of shepherding to use the gifting God has given them to use properly.

Who do you think is behind the hindering of God's Word in the modern church?


Porshadoxus profile image

Porshadoxus 3 years ago from the straight and narrow way

This makes more sense, and is where I thought you were going in the first place.

I belong to a denomination where local pastors are closely accountable to several layers of oversight within the organization. And I am blessed with a pastor who meets the standards you have mentioned for care of the flock. Within our organization, lay leaders are encouraged and empowered to be active in body ministry.

Within modern culture, there are administrative needs that must be tended to. I believe that when the local pastor focuses on prayer, discipleship and body ministry, God allows time and opportunity to take care of the administrative duties that are necessary. Both can be accomplished successfully. My pastor regularly uses visits, phone calls, emails to keep in touch with the local body.

You asked what we think is behind the hindering of God's Word in the church.

A gathering of pastors was once asked how much time they spent in prayer per day. One person out of hundreds spent over 1/2 hour per day in prayer. Over 98% were under 5 minutes in prayer per day. Now, you may think these pastors were our contemporaries, with TV, internet, Netflix, etc as distractions in their day. No. This group of pastors was polled sometime around 1895. Yes- eighteen ninety-five.

Distractions are nothing new. The issue is to take the time and commune with your saviour. That's what I believe is hindering the Word in the church- lack of prayer, especially by leadership.

Question for P&N- Are you referring to any particular group/church with your criticisms? Just curious.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Porshadoxus,

("Are you referring to any particular group/church with your criticisms?")

I know you are sincere with your question, but I believe if you take a step back and look at things from an outside point of view you will realize that I am referring to most churches.

("A gathering of pastors was once asked how much time they spent in prayer per day")

That will tell you the percentage of churches who have shepherds caught up in man-made traditions. This is proof to whom the allegiance is to.

("Within modern culture, there are administrative needs that must be tended to.")

If the pastor is doing administrative duties, he is violating his call of a shepherd and being distracted from his gifting. The effects have destroyed and oppressed most churches.

("My pastor regularly uses visits, phone calls, emails to keep in touch with the local body.")

Is he paid a salary to do it?

Once again I am going have to give along response because there are some here who are wanting to go down rabbit trails to tell me that the Old Testament definition of shepherd should be acknowledged. Unfortunately, I assumed that most Christians understood the church has merged the two Old Testament figures of priest and prophet into one office called "pastor." The Early Church was a fellowship of people rather than a "temple."

The modern pastors within the churches today are very busy people who live and lord over the flock. On the contrary, the Biblical shepherd leaves the ninety-nine sheep to search for the one that has been lost. The modern pastor is too busy trying to control, sway the masses, and seek their approval with no concern, and even no idea, that one of the sheep, if not many, have been lost.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. - John 10:1-16

The question is, who are these men that sneak over the wall of the sheepfold?

They are likened to the modern head pastors of today who try to access the sheep without going through Jesus Christ first, who is the gatekeeper, and the true example of a shepherd. They are men who have become “pastors,” not because of God’s call on their lives, but out of selfish ambition and the approval of men. A true servant of God only seeks the approval of God. If a pastor was truly willing to give up his life for the flock, he would be doing it without a salary. The modern “pastors” have become hired hands as identified by Jesus. The Early Church heeded this warning by not having these so called spiritual leaders with salaries running the church. It is clear that the wall of protection for the sheep in the genuine church, which is a volunteer priesthood.

The modern role of the head pastor has become an abomination to God and directly and have become lukewarm by adhering to a Babylonian system instead of the Holy Spirit. The mute masses continue to affirm their “pastor,” but only exposes them as deceived men.

The true hedge of protection is the volunteer priesthood of good shepherds. There are no real foot washers in the modern church, or those who go after the sheep that have been lost. The ordained priesthood in the modern church are not genuine shepherds, but hired hands. It is time to leave the harlot Babylon church and reprove these people.

But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible – Ephesians 5:13

I’m not going to be nice and expose this ungodly apostate position for what it is. It is a warning for those who have ears to hear not to worship under the hierarchical priest class covering of man-made titles; they have no true authority in Jesus Christ, or His protection.

There is no room for being politically correct, tolerant, or promoting peace when it comes to worshipping the system of the beast. Many church goers in the institutionalised church are in serious jeopardy because they have chosen the sophistry and boisterous voices of men over the still small voice of the Holy Spirit. Simply put, if you follow after these false doctrines of men above God’s Word you will are worshiping the image of the beast.

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. – Revelation 13:15

The priestly class of elite people who rule over the flock are deceivers who refuse to follow the example of Jesus Christ who washed the disciple’s feet. They are deceived, blind, and are proud performers, rather than humble seekers.

These apostates are not just those who preach the seeker friendly and prosperity gospels, but they also include the “pastors” who are ordained and live off the flock for their lively hood. They are OVER the flock, rather than AMONG the flock. I will not place myself in the jail of the modern church and who will be part of God’s wrath. These are beast preachers who destroy and scatter the sheep; they will be struck down for their disobedience by promoting robbery and extortion with their tithing mandates.

Jesus Christ is the example of servant leadership, and the modern church has done a horrible job of holding their leaders accountable to it.

And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” – Mark 10:42-44

The modern church does not recognize, and has turned away from its biblical responsibilities. The genuine church’s assignment is to spread the gospel, reach out to to the poor and needy, and help others by encourage them to follow God’s call on their lives. All the effort to promote the old ceremonial law of tithing to pay for salaries, overhead, and expenses in the name of the “holy” building is totally off the mark. The Early Church has a simple church model that is not expensive, complicated, or time consuming.

“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. ‘You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! – Mark 7:6-9

The pastors within the modern church have ignored the prophets of the Old Testament; the pulpit has become their monument. The Bible calls for shepherds, but prominence positions supersedes


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

awesome- well explained and most graciously presented


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

....continuation of comment above:

The Bible calls for shepherds, but prominence of positions supersedes. The pastor of the modern church wants all the benefits, and the pulpit is their monument, but they only get in the way of the Holy Spirit. I have had enough of the pseudo worship services, and the pulpit that cuts off so many from the real Jesus Christ. The modern pastors are getting in the way of God’s simple plan by wanting control, perpetuating deception, and passing it on to others.

What has happened to the true gathering of believers that is led by the Holy Spirit? It is time to expose and remove the people who are getting in the way of the headship of Jesus Christ.

It’s time to wake up! The ground is level at the foot of the cross.


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

Thank you P+N,

I feel your integrity and your passion, stemming from the Word in this posting.

Everyone the Lord has put across my path (and I am included in this list) in the last few years has been called OUT of the denominational churches, after many years of being in churches, seeing much of what is quoted above, trying to be an influence for good within, at great personal cost, and not succeeding. It is with them that my fellowship and worship lies. And The Holy Spirit does lead and guide us. As you said, We need to wake up.

What is interesting is that in countries like China, where it is dangerous to be a Christian, unless you follow the state promoted "church" where they are dictated to what is allowed and not allowed to be preached, it is house churches which thrive, believers coming together in their own homes at great risk, to worship and hear the word of God spoken together, which is as close to the Early Church as we will ever get. Those brothers and sisters risk their lives each and every time they meet, secretly, under cover of darkness. Praise God for His wisdom.


Porshadoxus profile image

Porshadoxus 3 years ago from the straight and narrow way

If a pastor is not supported by the local body, but has to work to support himself, is he not violating his call to be a shepherd to the people? How is he to live? What if he gets married and has children? Is he to ignore his family to shepherd the local body of believers, rather than support his family by work?

What of I Timothy 5:17-18? Is not the preacher's work worthy of a wage?

And what about the entirety of Paul's epistle's to Timothy and Titus? These are instructions to the leaders of local bodies of believers. There must be leadership for unity. And yes, God does choose humans to be local leaders- Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Timothy, Titus, etc. What do you think Jesus was dong with 12 disciples for 3 years- training them to be leaders.

You rail against real injustices, but your blanket statements are unjust to the men and women who truly lead and shepherd by the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit, men and women who have pure hearts, who are not using the pulpit for personal gain, but have a heart for the lost, have a heart to disciple believers, and rely on the Spirit's power to do the work of God.

Be cautious of how you speak of God's anointed, even if they are misusing their position or calling. Even David wouldn't touch Saul, God's anointed leader.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Porshadoxus,

You have made some valid points, and I hopefully I can address them.

(“Be cautious of how you speak of God's anointed, even if they are misusing their position or calling. Even David wouldn't touch Saul, God's anointed leader.”)

There is Biblical protocol in the New Testament that addresses those who are misusing their position and calling. Furthermore, I have not named any names, but I am attempting to clarify my position on principles applied by the Early Church. This is not a popular subject and there few out there who are willing to walk out the issues.

(“..your blanket statements are unjust to the men and women who truly lead and shepherd by the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit, men and women who have pure hearts, who are not using the pulpit for personal gain, but have a heart for the lost, have a heart to disciple believers, and rely on the Spirit's power to do the work of God.”)

This article does not apply to those people because they adhere to the principles outlined in Scripture. That is the distinction from the ones who compromise them. I would hope you would understand that my admonishments are to the latter.

In the New Testament Apostle Paul had a right to receive financial support, but established a pattern of not asking or demanding money from the churches that he served.

Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk? – 1 Corinthians 9:6-7

He did not require wages for a variety of reasons:

Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. – 2 Corinthians 11:7-9

For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. – 1 Thessalonians 2:9

…nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. – 1 Thessalonians 3:8

How many pastors do you know of who first consider the financial burden when taking up their position? It is simply assumed that a pastor must be salaried. Unfortunately, the world sees the pastor as only in it for the money, and for this reason it hinders the Gospel message because the stereotype has become a valid one. The mega church pastors of today live in lavish lifestyles bilking people of their hard earned money.

If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? – 1 Corinthians 9:12

For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. – 2 Corinthians 2:17

Paul always wanted to be in a position of always being able to give to others in need instead of always being on the receiving end.

I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” – Acts 20:33-35

And to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. – 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12

It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. – 2 Thessalonians 3:9

How often is this imitated in the modern pastoral office?

From the example of Paul and comparing it to the modern system in the church today this is almost non-existent. The Early Church leaders were normally not paid. Pail could have received money, but chose not to. He wanted to serve by not depending on any church for support. What is apparent in the modern church is that a pastor will be chosen who is not from AMONG the flock for his professional credentials. Before the advertisement is put, the consideration of being able to support the person is first considered. Most men will not even consider their “calling” until the financial package is adequate.

In Acts 20:35, Paul was an example by working hard and giving a model to follow. What would be the point of this model if pastors are to be fully salaried and completely living off the church they shepherd? Pastors, like anyone else, should work with their hands and provide for their own needs. Paul’s detachment from material gain is evident in the epistles and never used ministry as a mask to cover up it up.

When we are not dependent on other we put ourselves in a position to help the less fortunate and share in one another’s burdens. The major qualification for church leaders is a detachment from the love of money, but among the modern pastors of today, the salary is their first consideration. Paul applied it is better to give than to receive for a reason. The minister is to be a servant and a giver, not a taker. The ministry is not legitimate without these qualifications.

Is the kingdom of God and the Gospel about material rewards? Paul coveted nothing that was not his and did not avail himself to be maintained by SPIRITUAL WELFARE, but earned his living by his own labours. Paul worked night and day with his own hands that no one would accuse him of depending on the hearers of the Gospel for his material needs.

It seems that support was needed for the travelling evangelists and prophets, but not the settled local “clergy.”

Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. – Matthew 10:9-10

And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house. – Luke 10:7

Your reference to 1 Timothy 5:17-18 may refer to money gifts, but it sure is not about fixed salaries, which are considered an abomination in the eyes of the Early Church. It is also less probable the Early Church could have supported a plurality of pastors, which were already appointed. The indication that elders who rule receive “double honour,” which many supposed to be a full-time salary is not that cut and dry. Is the genuine church really to believe that Paul wanted all the pastors and elders on some kind of payroll, or merely one man called the senior head pastor? The word honor means what it means, and that is what naturally goes with that office, not pay.

There are those who appeal also to Galatians 6:6 which says,

One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

The problem is that pastors were not the only ones who taught in the local church. If that is the case, then all teachers should be required a salary. We must share in all good things, which must include a salary, medical insurance, and a retirement plan right?

I would say that “all good things” are periodic gifts, food, assistance that a teacher may need. 1 Timothy 5:17-18 is not an exegetical warrant for a salaried position from the words, or the surrounding context.

There is also 1 Corinthians 9:14,

In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

In the right context, this verse does not apply to pastors, elders, or any other leaders, but refers to apostles, or the equivalent of a missionary today. The nature of their work would agree with their obvious needs. There was no salary involved.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Cont...

There would be no real reason to support a full time head pastor if the New Testament patterns were truly implemented. A functioning priesthood instead of a passive audience would do away this “need.” Leadership responsibilities should be shared, not a hired one-man-show who becomes the focal point of every meeting. Teaching should be shared among the flock and each member participating in some way to contribute to the body of Jesus Christ.

For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. – 1 Thessalonians 2:9


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Shoforcall,

Thank-you for sharing a bit of your experience. Keep fighting the good fight. The man-made religious traditions within the apostate churches will lead many right into taking on the image and mark of the beast. The corporate run churches with their board members making all the decisions for the mute and passive audience is no different than the worldly corporate system run by Satan. People cry for a prominent CEO figure to take all their problems away; the Antichrist will gladly give them their false peace and they will eat it up.

Your comment about China is valid one. I recently saw a documentary on Chinese underground churches where a Chinese Christian was found to be part of genuine church gathering . He was physically clubbed by the police for his beliefs by not following and adhering the governing system of "church." He was proud of his wounds and counted it an honor to have received them.

In contrast in North America it is different; you will be persecuted and spiritually abused in the modern churches by standing up for Biblical standards and principles.


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

P+N,

So glad you know something of the Chinese House church movement. Have you read "Back to Jerusalem" by Paul Hattaway, which tells the story of this movement and the vision they were given in the 1920s to take the gospel all the way back to Jerusalem along the Old Silk road? This area covers the 10/40 window which is inhabited by 90% of the worlds unreached people groups and all 50 of the worlds least evangelized countries. An amazing eye opener to what our brothers and sisters in far flung countries are having to endure for the body of Christ. God Bless


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Shorforcall,

I haven't read that book. Thank-you for the mention of the author, I will have to peruse some of his stuff.


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

His website is www.asiaharvest.org

He is not "a writer" as such. He wrote this book to be the voice of the Chinese "Back to Jerusalem" movement. Perhaps that is why it is so authentic. He works very closely with them too.


shofarcall profile image

shofarcall 3 years ago

I have just been on the asiaharvest website which has been updated and it is quite complicated getting to the info. You need to: Go to "What we do", then "Back to Jerusalem" then "newsletter and how we assist" and then scroll down the page which will bring you to article on how it all began.


narrrowway 3 years ago

I like to thank the author for expressing historical truths. The additional add ons were not part of the true ecclesia , words and terms got changed to support the wealth and power side of things...much was changed to put men over it.

The ecclesia did not use the Ot priesthood, man added that latter on,, it was every believer was now Spirit led and all came with something to bring. Barclay in his commentary on the Corinth letter said , they would not know what we are doing today, quote.1954-56?copy.. makes one wonder why?

The priesthood of all beleivers not just those that would soon elevate themselves for gain.The body or the temple are people not wood.. or state run operations.

The danger of those who brought in the pagn sophisrty practices, etc should have long since been dealt with, sadly it;s beocme an industry business driven, in some cases tradition is easy just to sit back pay and get a free ride? no sure that goes anywhere..., may be the real issues to be dealt with...??

And in many ways has all arrived at being powerless/divided compared to those of the true ecclesia.

The early history can be foud in some of the early writings on the topic in the early 1900s, Walker on the History of christianity opens the topic wide.,PGS Hopwood religious experience of ther primitive Church, has some deeply interesting leads as well as wealth of Facts on the Spirit led life.please get it has relaly fine ref articles.

Angus speaks the mysteries impact on the faith, which is important to understand the issues dealing with early Greek magicians and those using their practices the author here speaks of.. .Clement and Oregin were inside some of it, mixing, things in troubling times, as the revelatory was exchanegd for the gnosis, led to many assumptions. I spent a lot of time sifting out the fog from the truth for myself...

Irenaous makes comment in 300 Ad that they had the book and rule of faith etc but no longer did they possess the Spirit or the power there of"" a sad loss, Angerbert says they exhanged the revalatory for the gnosis, a foolish exchange? the loss is huge and the fruit of it all is all to obvious.

I have no regrets, in the end we answer to God, I felt it would be best to get about what will really matters, veres the doubtful manipualtion of man for his own glory and power... After all the final questions will be "did you do" what I ask you to do? that tells me it;s purly relational to him, and one to another aware and able to grow in such awareness..1Corinth2.

Wise discussion, praying for all for truth to prevail,, we;re in big trouble for sure, divided and often angry, boy Jesus sees all that,

"worship in truth and Spirit" not easy to face truth, but better now than to late.

Avoiding a huge loss described in 1 Corinth 3 be huge shame , may we grow in faith, love, and hope, all of us one to another so that we may all play a huge role in a deeply troubled world reflecting his love and truth, may elders serve as they were ask to in great joy, love to all. Be kind one to another.He sees! us all inside out... take care.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Narroway,

I appreciate your understanding of this theme. History and Biblical precedence cannot be refuted when one takes a deeper look. Unfortunately, the traditions of man are so ingrained that many simply refuse to accept the truth. Accepting it would destroy the idolatry of the church building and the religious traditions that go on within the four walls.

Thank-you for the additional information you have provided. God Bless.


New Pastor 3 years ago

P+N. God does work within peoples'cultures you know! You deride culture like there is some super culture you want us all to belong to. God does not need us to come out of our cultures before He deals with us. Practicality of what you are saying is quite a challenge to me also. Just be specific and tell us how you suppose a pastor can be able to use phone calls, visits and emails without money,where the money must come from. Scripture says money answers all(OT, Proverbs), so pastors who are doing God's work need money(salary) to be able to fulfill their work. Paul did receive money, brother; actually urging the the Corinthians to do better than the Macedonian churches(2Cor8). Yes he did not use it on himself, I just think it is not right to project the idea that he did not receive any money you know. By the way, I do believe your continued reference to pastors as salaried hirelings does bring up a few questions to me. If pastors do not get the salary, how are they to care for their families?(1Tim3:1-7). The world is quite dynamic today, I just wonder how you would really have a pastor working full time in the ministry without any form of recompense, whether you call it salary or what-not being able to do his job /call / mission or whatever you can call it? Have you had personal problems specifically in your congregation(I know!) with the pastor? Why paint everybody with the same colour, when there are so many shining examples of "salaried hirelings"as you call them, who do God's work quite diligently? Were you denied the position of pastor in one way or another?You do not believe in salaries for pastors, what should be done to provide for them? (1Tim5:17-18)Are you able to do God's work without any form of recompense, or can you advice how you specifically are making it without money?In our church, we teach every one on the members that scripture allows us to 'test the spirits' and then believe in the one that recognizes and acknowledges Jesus as Lord(paraphrased). I still have to see you saying something along this lines unless I missed it! I truly believe after raising such a storm about the subject, you should be in a position to provide tentative, workable solutions instead of sweeping statements that do not provide solutions. Elijah needed the raven, the widow and then the whole community(again OT!)The disciples were gathered in the upper room(made of bricks and mortar), when Christ revealed Himself to them; they were praying in a house when Peter was released miraculously from prison, and led to the house(made of bricks and mortar). It was their custom to visit the temple(after the resurrection.........) The beggar was found at the temple(made of bricks and mortar) gate. I am sure you are aware of all this, but am perplexed at how you want to discredit buildings as if they have no role in the gospel today."When you enter a house(made of bricks and mortar), stay there and eat whatever they offer"!!!!!(Jesus' instruction to the disciples) We need buildings to meet in, they are not the church, just a place to meet and protect ourselves from the elements brother. You do have a house I believe, but it is not a home until there is love and warmth in it. Bricks and mortar can not offer these, but people. So by the same token, stop staying in a house then, because it is just bricks and mortar. Let us refrain from idealistic notions and unworkable arguments that only help fuel divisions in the church(I know even here!!!!) What you are suggesting sounds a lot too fairytale and cannot be applied in the real world.I do not mean to be rude, just practical.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

New Pastor,

I assume that you are a hireling that is trying to justify your position in the modern “church”. The Scripture verses you have used have been used completely out of context. You then presuppose that I must be disgruntled and have had personal problems within my congregation. This is simply not true an attempt at distraction. Most hirelings will twist and manipulate things in defence of their kingdom rather than deal with the truth.

What it comes down to is whether you are going to hold on to your personal opinions and man-made teachings, or allow the Word of God to shatter your false cherished belief that God approves of salaried hirelings.

Firstly, I agree that God works within people’s cultures, but His truth does not change regardless. Culture does not change the Gospel message. It is the false teachings of the modern “church” (Emergent) that attempt to change the Gospel message to fit cultural norms.

Your assertion that I deride culture is misplaced. Your personal feelings concerning the evidence that I have provided may be perceived to you as ridicule, but rather it is a rebuke. This article is meant to be a challenge to all salaried pastors who require compensation to dispense the Gospel. This is what I believe separates the real pastor from the counterfeit. Salaried to serve is an oxymoron.

Freely you receive, freely give. The Bible never says that we should make professional careers of the Gospel and the gifts God has given us. The cause of so much corruption and disfigurement within the church is man freely giving control over to other human beings to think for them.

(“Scripture says money answers all(OT, Proverbs), so pastors who are doing God's work need money(salary) to be able to fulfill their work.”)

This argument is based on the assumption that this verse is about a pastor’s wages/salary. This verse in no way says that in order for a pastor to fulfill God’s work he must be compensated for it. You have cherry-picked this verse and have applied it incorrectly; therefore, I reject this argument because it is a distortion of God’s Word.

(“Paul did receive money, brother; actually urging the Corinthians to do better than the Macedonian churches(2Cor8). Yes he did not use it on himself, I just think it is not right to project the idea that he did not receive any money you know.”)

The Scripture you referenced has nothing to do with the salary of a pastor, but it is about being generous to one another. Of course it is possible that gifts were received in the form of money, but there is a distinction between a gift and a regular salary. Also, before you can call me “brother” you will have to step down from your priest-class position and join the ranks of all those who are considered equal within the true body of Christ. A salaried “pastor” is clergy member, which is a distinct differentiation between the laity class of people.

(“If pastors do not get the salary, how are they to care for their families?(1Tim3:1-7).”)

(“You do not believe in salaries for pastors, what should be done to provide for them? (1Tim5:17-18) ”)

The answer is easy. Quit your job as a hireling and go find a meaningful occupation that does not require extortion to bilk others of their hard earned money. Every time you get upon your podium and say, “Let us continue to worship God in the giving of our tithes and offerings,” you are extorting others by using your official professional clergy position to twist Scripture to obtain money from them. Do what the many other volunteers do and serve the body of Christ without salary. They truly understand that their reward is in heaven.

In 1 Thessalonians 2, Paul talks about his real work where he worked both day and night making tents. On top of all of this, he found time to preach the Good News. He did all this so the Church would not have to pay a cent while he ministered to others. What a contrast to the modern “pastor” who requires a paid platform. The Apostle Paul never equated preaching the Gospel with “work.”

The “offering” that is used to support the professional hireling and his family is not authorized in the New Testament. In fact, it is plainly condemned. You will find nowhere that the “offering” is part of a “church worship service” where a large part of the money goes to the profit of the “pastor” and the building overhead.

This is what Jesus said about a hired minister, or a paid shepherd.

All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. – John 8:11-13

Jesus is talking about thieves and robbers, which include “hired hands.”

Surely you remember brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. – 1 Thessalonians 2:9

When the Church pays someone to teach and preach, it is a burden. To be blunt, the hireling is a “fungus” that dwarfs the spiritual growth of the Church.

Do you honestly believe that double honor applies to salary in 1 Timothy 5:17?

It is true that good elders are worthy of double honor, but it is about honor, not salary. People in Bible times gave their lives for the gospel, but now hirelings demand payment for it and twists this Scripture verses for monetary benefit.

The modern “church” has lost all their power because of this. Even the world can see the twisted abomination and corruption for what it is. Everyone wants to make for themselves a career that rides on the coat tails of the “Gospel” because it comes with so many perks and benefits. The truth is, they will get their earthly rewards, but because they have done it without self-sacrifice, they will be denied access to God’s kingdom for doing so.

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ – Matthew 7:22-23

If you read 2 Corinthians 8-9, it speaks of taking care of the saints, it is not about using up resources for one man’s ministry and the “church” building. A salaried hireling is part of the institution of organized religion, not part of the true Church. Hirelings are a hindrance to the advancement of the kingdom of God because they hinder people from maturing in Christ. The calling and gifting’s of others are suppressed for the hireling’s ministry. If everyone exercised their gifting that God has given them, there would be no need for a “church” CEO because each person would have the right to function and exercise their gifting an. In the modern “church,” it is only the hired professional minister who decides who can speak, and who does not.

The hired “pastor” has it all backwards and believes that being a “bond servant” equates to a full-time salary. In fact, they demand it by enforcing the tithe that does not apply to the Church. Why is it when people give, the leaders do not distribute it to the saints who are in need, but they keep almost all of it for themselves, their “ministry”, and their building?

All ministers of the Gospel can work regular jobs, just like Paul who understood that everyone else had bills to pay too.

(“…but am perplexed at how you want to discredit buildings as if they have no role in the gospel today.”)

I have written an article that may answer your question here concerning the “church” building…. http://hub.me/afaL1 and the hierarchy within it…. http://hub.me/afuLw .


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

New Pastor,

Cont....

(“What you are suggesting sounds a lot too fairytale and cannot be applied in the real world.”)

It is evident that you clearly blinded by the traditions of man that have prepped you for the institutionalized religious system of the world. If you continue within this worldly system you will be embraced with the accolades of man and enabled to set up your own kingdom within it. I’m here to tell you that this is not the kingdom of God.

You have given yourself the name “New Pastor.” If you are indeed new, I would encourage you to weigh and test what kind of profession you are getting into. If you don’t get out soon, you will become a man-pleaser in a religious system based on the traditions of man. There will be many times of compromise because speaking real truth would have to be abandoned because it would put your livelihood at stake as it would bring offence to some.

The true Church is not a building, and a genuine pastor is not the salaried CEO who runs it. Jesus Christ is head of the one genuine Church that consists of “living stones” who require no man to be the mediator between them and Jesus Christ.

To get out from the oppression of the religious institution will require a dramatic paradigm shift in understanding and thinking. It requires one to leave the kingdom of man that is steeped in their own tradition and ideology, and enter into the kingdom of God that is steeped in the truth of God’s Word. One requires compensation, the other self-sacrifice. I hope you will come to understand the distinction.


deorganicchurch profile image

deorganicchurch 3 years ago from Claymont, DE

I come from an organic church environment, and I used to believe that the senior pastor role was not biblical. I did some further research and compared versus to see that this role can indeed function within the church as outlined in the Bible. It doesn't appear to be a requirement as there are no clear Scriptures that demand the position in a clear and concise manner. God may have allowed churches to function either with a plurality of elders or with a group of elders that has one man function in a more primary role. Here is an article I wrote that provides biblical support for the senior pastor role: http://www.simplechurch.com/profiles/blogs/church-...


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Deorganicchurch,

The role of a pastor is Biblical. There is no such thing as "senior" pastor. The adjective in front of pastor necessitates hierarchy instead of servitude. Paul as an apostle was part of the transition period from the Law to founding of the Church as was being laid for the full revelation grace of Jesus Christ. Now that we understand the fullness of grace, the apostleship (senior position ) is no longer required.


Porshadoxus profile image

Porshadoxus 3 years ago from the straight and narrow way

I never understood Paul to be in the position of a senior leader/pastor. Rather, he appears as both an inspired author if Scripture (spelled with a capital 'A'postle, if you will), and as a missionary/church planter (spelled with a minuscule 'a'postle). In this sense, the Apostle is no longer valid, but the apostle is necessary. We just call them missionaries.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Porshadoxus,

I agree.

The context of "senior position" that I used in my comment to Deorganicchurch was from reading his article from the link he provided.


deorganicchurch profile image

deorganicchurch 3 years ago from Claymont, DE

Since the apostle Paul states that he was not behind the chiefest apostles, and when you review his ministry and guidance of Timothy, Titus and other leaders in the church, it seems fairly obvious that he was in a leading type position. Yet, I think leadership in New Testament times was different than what we see in our traditional church structure today. We really don't see the brotherhood in Christ in today's church but rather a strong clergy/laity divide between leaders and members of churches.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Deorganicchurch,

The natural mind cannot reconcile being in a position of authority without being able to exercise the authority over others. It is only by having a renewed mind that this makes sense in God’s Kingdom. Jesus Christ is the perfect example of Kingdom authority who exercises His love for others whether they were in opposition to Him or not.

The government of the Kingdom of God has no worldly leaders in it that demand submission and subservience. Many do not understand that there is no such thing as clergy and laity in God’s Kingdom.

("We really don't see the brotherhood in Christ in today's church but rather a strong clergy/laity divide between leaders and members of churches.")

When you can objectively see this happening in the mainstream "churches," it reveals that is part of the worldly structures that represent spiritual Babylon.

Here are some links that expand on this premise: http://hub.me/afTi4 , http://hub.me/afTCQ

God Bless


deorganicchurch profile image

deorganicchurch 3 years ago from Claymont, DE

I read both of the articles from the links you provided, and they are very good. I am not sure if you're trying to say that all traditional churches are part of spiritual Babylon. I can definitely see how worldly ways of doing things have crept into the traditional church. Who do you think the seven stars of revelation are?

Revelation 1:16 ESV In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

Revelation 1:20 ESV As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Deorganicchurch,

In Revelation 1 there are seven candlesticks that represent seven Churches (Ephesus, Snyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philidelphia and Laodicea). What symbolizes these candles are the lampstands that symbolize their locality. In Revelation 2-3, these Churches have success and failure as a locality.

When Church is looked at as a locality, it becomes no longer about a building that people go into that is a permanent fixture on some prime piece of real estate, but about people (living stones). The true Church are people in a locality who listen and obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, and are in brotherly fellowship with one another. Denominations work in the complete opposite way of separating people. The true Church is in one accord with Jesus Christ.

To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia - 2 Corinthians 1:1

(" I am not sure if you're trying to say that all traditional churches are part of spiritual Babylon.")

A "church" will not be recognized as the Bride of Christ if they are participating in a lifestyle of sin, which includes the traditions of man. I believe when a local "church" refuses repent when told the truth, they are removed as a lamp stand and are given over to the system of Babylon.

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. - Revelation 2:5

Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. - Revelation 2:16

Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. - Revelation 3:3

As you can see there was compromise in the Church that needed to be addressed, but God was gracious enough to give those the opportunity to reconcile with Him.

Jesus Christ is the perfect Head of the Church, but those within it are fallible in nature. The only way the Church can grow and expand the Kingdom of God is by listening and obeying what He says even in rebuke. When man attempts to improve on God's perfect ways, they are saying that they can do it better. The traditions of man try to make God fit into the image of carnal man rather than conforming to His.

Jesus Christ considers His Church as golden (valuable). The genuine and true are the true lights of the world (pillars of truth). They worship Him in spirit and truth; therefore, they do not substitute pagan ideologies, creed, doctrines and the traditions of man, but incorporate God's standard and example in everything they do.


K.P 3 years ago

I know that pastor is more of a spiritual gift than of an office in the church. Christ is the head of the church not a man or woman there where only three offices given and they are bishops, elders, and deacons and these offices are required to be held by men.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

bishop and elder are the same person and these are Servant ministries to the church, not positions of authority, even though they do have a measure of authority-- to be exercised only as Christ directs


Joe 2 years ago

Great article and most excellent rebuke. Ignatius' (of Antioch) writings may or may not be genuine, but even if so, the portions referencing great authority to a bishop are easily recognized as not biblical, yet are almost the sole early writings "supporting" the spiritual hierarchy of modern institutional churches. Thank you!


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Celafoe,

Thanks for the support and your comments.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Joe,

Thank-you for reading and the affirmation. God Bless.


Nathan 2 years ago

P+N,

I appreciate your view points. I have been talking to my wife for weeks now about the problems with the modern church. According to the national census 85% of Americans classify themselves as "Christian" yet look at the situation we are in. This all comes down to the problems with the modern church. I was actually kicked out of a church 12 years ago for disagreeing with the pastor on a very minor topic. So, what I have been dealing with, and the question I have is... What do we do about it?


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Nathan,

You must leave the man driven system of "church," and pursue Jesus Christ for yourself. If you abide in His Word, His spirit will lead you to truth.


Liberty 2 years ago

I am so thankful I have found this website. It confirms what I have come to believe these past few weeks.

PlanksandNails, your words have really helped me. I'm wondering how you could explain this concept of "Corporate Worship" to me?

Someone at my church recently told me that, "But it's important to worship corporately".

I was thinking... "Where's that in Scripture?". Can you assist me there?

Thank you.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Liberty,

Church is not a building, but people (living stones) with the Holy Spirit that indwells within them. There is only one Church, which consist of people in localities throughout the earth. They are led by the Holy Spirit, not by salaried men who create Sunday services and programs for their underlings in a building. God has called us to worship in spirit and in truth. The setup to the modern "church" is in disobedience to God as it incorporates the traditions of man within a hierarchical system. They worship God in spirit, but not in truth; therefore, "corporate worship" is done in disobedience, a work of vanity. In contrast, when believers fellowship with one another and put Jesus Christ as the head, worship takes on a different form when two or more are gathered in His name anywhere. It has nothing to do with the religion of attending in the "churches" of men.

Here are some articles that may help in your quest for truth.

http://hub.me/afTi4

http://hub.me/afaL1

http://hub.me/agk7x

http://hub.me/afuLw


Liberty 2 years ago

Thanks again for this.

I'm not sure if you're going to be setting up a website soon with all this information but I really hope so. I have friends within the system who need to read this. I will be forwarding links as required.

Whoever you are, I thank God for your work.

He is so good. Please keep it up.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Liberty,

At this point, the conduit for my articles is through Hubpages. It may change to my own website in the future. Here is the main page for all the articles I have written. You can scroll down and peruse the various themes. God Bless.

http://hubpages.com/@planksandnails


accidentialreader 2 years ago

PlanksandNails,

I happened upon your hub while looking for something else; lead there when I found the cartoon of the congregation seeing to the pastor for pastoral appreciation day. As I began reading the cartoon, I was quite perplexed concerning the song the congregation sang to a pastor until I read all the lines. I realized that honor of the office was not the point, but it appeared very angry and mocking of both the office and the congregation.

I have read through your article and virtually all of the comments on this article.

I must say, I am grieved. I am deeply saddened about what I have read here and the means and manners of the comments.

Subsequently, I would like to ask you the following;

(1) How much time do you spend per day in prayer crying out to a Holy, Just and Graceful Savior praying for the lives of people - those in the "traditional" /"man-made"/ "church buildings" / with "senior pastors"/"non-biblical, modern role of "pastor"?

(2) Given that you have a revelation of the grace of the NT covenant and a cessation of the OT Covenant, as well as a peace about your stance of the above as you call others to awareness of the ills of the modern church, where is the love you should be flowing in? Why do your cartoons and your writings display what appears to be the opposite of peace, grace and love and seem to be so filled with what appears to be anger and venom? (We can discuss issues calmly, and with honor of one another without the use of scathing cartoons and words which can possibly be seen as demeaning.) Don't you agree!

(Galatians 6:1 - 6 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.)

Blessings,

AccidentialReader


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

accidentailreader,

The cartoon was chosen to make a point. Elitism and celebrity status of "pastors" in the "church" are an epidemic.

You ask where is the love? Truth is the umbrella over love; therefore, the "love" that is not perfected in truth in not true love at all. Here is an article that explains this,

http://hub.me/agvwC

It seems that your feelings determine your "truth" as you say that you are perplexed, grieved and in saddened state. If you disagree with the article then take quotes from it and use Scripture to contest what has been stated. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant evidence.

By asking me how much I pray is simply a red herring that misleads and distracts from the points made in this article. You don't know; therefore, I would just stick with what you do know.

The verses you quoted are out of context. If you re-read the article, it is not about someone who has sinned against me, but about men who are wolves in sheep's clothing who make themselves the focal point of their "churches." Again, man worship is prevalent in the "churches" of men, that is a sad fact. Here are a few more articles that clarify this in more detail,

http://hub.me/agnTR

http://hub.me/agxZI

http://hub.me/afTCQ

(...where is the love you should be flowing in?)

What type of love are should be flowing in as there are four different types of love in Scripture? For example, agape love that is prevalent throughout the New Testament is not about making others feel warm and fuzzy, but showing love that is in truth, even when it makes other uncomfortable. The truth is that the salaried "pastor" is nowhere to be found in Scripture, nor the focal point of all Church activities.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 2 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

Dear accidental reader--have you ever read and digested what James, Peter, Paul, John-- Jesus and others in scripture have to say about those who profess to be Leaders of God's people yet are leading God's people astray. Or what it says about the hirelings and what Jesus thinks of them?

Have you ever tried to discuss this with a "senior pastor"? Did he welcome your concern?

are you aware of and understand the differences in the many different kinds of love in the scriptures?

Do you have the same concern for the innocent sheep being led astray that you have for the false pastor?

just wondering--

also wondering why you don't have an account with a name on it so we can check you out as you can us?


Carol J 2 years ago

Dear person who wrote this article and the ones listed below it. THANK YOU. I have grown increasingly frustrated with the traditions of man being touted as scripture when there isn't any scripture to back it up. The institutional church as it is today usurps the authority of the husbands and hands it to the pastor, and encourages the mothers away from the children to make more money for the tithe. Wolves in sheep's clothing slobbering at the promise of power. Speak out. You are right on.


greg 20 months ago

Great job. This is

well researched.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Carol J and greg,

Thank-you for reading the article and sharing your thoughts. God Bless.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Planksandnails, may I ask, are these your own personal opinions derived from your reading of scripture alone or are you associated with any identifiable ecclesia or groups of ecclesia or missions. Are you influenced by others who have expressed these views and if so who are they? Does your ecclesia have a semblance of outreach to the world, just how does it function/ Like most churches do you have a website that promotes the Gospel or defines your beliefs so that unbelievers may investigate and be discipled?

I'm curious, where might I go to learn more of your beliefs, if there is no one in authority in your ecclesia is every member doing whatever they want as they are led by the spirit? Are they all Biblical shepherds and no sheep? Where do you worship, who do you fellowship with?


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

I am not part of organized man-made religion with a fancy church website underneath a denominational umbrella. My beliefs are what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture. That is my influence as well as those among the ekklesia who I get encouragement and exhortation from. I’m sorry, but I can’t point you to named building, fancy website, or a special esteemed senior pastor. What I can do is point you to God’s Word and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles as that is my standard for functioning in the body of Christ.

Your questions point to man-made devices, which I cannot help you with. The reason you are curious is that you are indoctrinated within the counterfeit Church system. You think worship is where you go.

You can find more about my beliefs by reading my articles as I use the text of Scripture as my authority. I hold myself accountable for what I write, and all my articles are open to scrutiny by the reader. If you disagree with any of them please provide the Scriptural evidence to the contrary and we can discuss them in more detail.

Those among the ekklesia do NOT do whatever they want. They recognize the voice of their Shepherd and are led by him, not via the hireling senior pastor.

The purpose of this article as well as my many others is to expose the corrupt man-driven system of church by using the authority of Scripture so that people will wake up and recognize the apostasy that is right in front of their eyes.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

I assure you you can not know what my motivation is to ask these questions and for you to make the statement "Your questions point to man-made devices, which I cannot help you with. The reason you are curious is that you are indoctrinated within the counterfeit Church system. You think worship is where you go." is terribly presumptive, misleading and frankly appears on the surface to be a dodge.

I asked, are these your own personal opinions derived from your reading of scripture alone or are you associated with any identifiable ecclesia or groups of ecclesia or missions. How does this point to man-made devices?

I asked, are you influenced by others who have expressed these views and if so who are they? You mean to tell me you are solely influenced by your own interpretation of the Bible without insight or consultation of any other human being? How does this point to man-made devices?

Does your ecclesia have a semblance of outreach to the world, just how does it function? How does this point to man-made devices? Did Jesus not command "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." I understand that to be the Great Commission, or do you not believe Jesus commanded this of the disciples? You are not subject to this command? Asking how your ecclesia accomplishes this points to man-made devices? I don't think so, unless you don't have any outreach at all. Then I could see how you think an outreach is a man made device.

I asked, "Like most churches do you have a website that promotes the Gospel or defines your beliefs so that unbelievers may investigate and be discipled?" This doesn't point to a man made device, this question asks how do unbelievers investigate your ecclesia and be discipled. (Even reading your Hub Pages can't answer that question)

I'm asking where might I go to learn more of your beliefs, if there is no one in authority in your ecclesia is every member doing whatever they want as they are led by the spirit? Are they all Biblical shepherds and no sheep? Where do you worship, who do you fellowship with? If you really think these questions point to man made devices and aren't Biblical based questions it begs the question what man made devices did the apostles use then?

Can you not specifically answer any of these Biblical, not man made, questions beyond your beliefs are what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture? You are not influenced by anyone else besides scripture? When you encounter the lost what do you do, point them to God’s Word and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles and say there now, go function in the body of Christ, you have all you need, start an ecclesia somewhere? I mean really, how do you do anything to spread the Gospel to the world or are you simply anointed by God to criticize everyone who is serving the Lord in a multitude of capacities throughout the world.

Do you believe in fellow shipping with the saints, or are you set a part in your own little world of Hub Pages. True fellowship doesn’t just happen; we have to work at it constantly, both in our families and in the church. If you get involved in the Christian life I can guarantee that you will be offended at some point, but all you write about appears to be things that offend you purely from a subjective point of view that is aimed at a falsely characterized blanket group you wish to attack and is couched by you as more like an exercise of hatred than an appeal for reason and scriptural honesty.

Really, how does one become a part of your... whatever you call it, do you meet, do you feed the poor, do you assemble, do you worship, do you meet to pray, do you have Bible studies, do you minister to widows and orphans, do you speak in tongues. Do you believe anyone can baptize anyone even though nowhere in the Bible was anyone baptized but by someone in authority, because you seem to say no one is in authority. I just find it terribly confusing to anyone that you can't articulate any sort of STATEMENT OF FAITH beyond what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture. There are many different interpretations of what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture so unless you can at least elaborate some basics tenants of your faith the answer you give can be interpreted to mean many different things by many different people. If you can't be specific about this question I can only conclude you are trying to hide something or just don't want to take me seriously.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

Trolls have nothing to offer except posts irrelevant to the topic. So no, I don't take you seriously.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Trolls? So rather than answer simple questions about our faith you choose name calling? Just what is it you are trying so hard to hide? If I were to ask these questions of any other Christian I would get specific answers. Though I may disagree with some at least I then could determine by study of the Word, seeking counsel and availing myself of knowledge through apologetics who is in error

Proverbs 12:15 ESV

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

Proverbs 11:14 ESV

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

Proverbs 19:20-21 ESV

Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future. Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 15:22 ESV

Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed.

The answers you provide are nothing but dodges or failure to answer at all. This is the kind of behavior I would expect to get from a cult member, I know because I've asked the same Biblical questions of cult members and gotten the same dodges and non-response. I must say though they refrained from name calling. I suppose because they were face to face with me and couldn't hide behind a computer.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

An internet troll is an attempt to provoke people into an emotional response that disrupts the theme being presented.

You are assuming I am a cult member without any evidence or proof. I am not a cult member, nor am I on HubPages to reveal my personal life, especially to people I don't know. If you believe that I am a false teacher then provide evidence for your claims.

It is a typical tactic of those within the church system who cannot refute the truth resort to character assassination instead. Your tactics are not going to work for you here.

As I said, if you do not have anything to offer pertaining to the theme of the article to contribute, or refute, they will be removed. Presumptions and "ventures to guess" are not worthy of consideration. Use the evidence of the written text in this article with Scripture to correct what you believe to be false instead of the twisting Scripture based on your own guesswork about myself. Give yourself some credibility.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

That's the whole point, to offer anything pertaining to the theme of the article or to contribute, or refute your rant I need answers to my questions. I cannot determine the validity or error of what you have put forth and how you portray this topic without understanding where you are coming from.

My questions have nothing to do with evoking an emotional response, actually the opposite, I'm looking for facts, I have a purpose which you, I think knowingly, want to evade so as not to give me any ammunition to actually critique what you say about pastors. Simple answers would have allowed me to investigate what you have said and your motivations for saying it. Without answers you force me to presume and I can only conclude because of your tendency to raise these straw men, like I am "a troll" or want to evoke emotional responses and avoid answering simple Biblical questions you simply want to put forth an angry rant to see how many people you can find who will gratify your anger, your need for approval. Nothing you say in this hub page, your comments included, passes the smell test for sincerity.

So go ahead and delete my comments, you have to live with that insincerity on your conscience, my conscience is clear because all I'm looking for is the truth which you obviously want to hide.

If you sincerely wish a debate, answer my simple questions, and I will offer my two cents about your rant.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

(" I cannot determine the validity or error of what you have put forth and how you portray this topic without understanding where you are coming from.")

As I told you in my previous comment,

"My beliefs are what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture." If that is not a good enough answer for you, too bad!

You can easily determine where someone comes from by what they write, and weigh and test it with the Word of God, but trolls have no desire to do that, but use conjecture, presumptions and speculations imagining up different scenarios and stories about the author in their minds to divert attention away from the presented theme. Any claim, or argument must be dismissed on irrelevant facts, or supposition because it is a fallacy. In this case, you comments fit this category.

Unless you use the evidence of the written text in this article to reveal false teaching by using Scripture for correction, no additional comments will be presented by you here.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, and for training in righteousness - 2 Timothy 3:16


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 20 months ago from The Ekklesia

Aaron

Sorry I have no "simple questions" that need answering before I can respond to a very well written article. However I do speak favorably about your "Rant" to others I meet in my daily travels. Much to be learned by reading your responses in the remarks sections.

Thank you

Rich


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

"My beliefs are what was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture."

Same answer the Jehovah witness gave me last time I questioned them. So it's pretty obvious you either belong to a cult, that's why I asked who influences you, or you wish to keep people in the dark as to what your beliefs actually are so you can hide under the facade that you, and apparently only you, possess the truths taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles as attested in Scripture though you cannot or will not articulate any statement of your faith that actually conveys even one thing you believe was taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

You apparently don't believe in The Great Commission, one of the questions I asked you which you totally ignored, and which no Christian I know would avoid discussing as it is the cornerstone of spreading the Gospel.

So there you go, you can stop threatening to delete my comments, a typical behavior of someone who has much to hide, and just do it.

Being stuck on I'm threatening you, is not becoming of any Christian.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Rich,

You are welcome. Thanks for reading the commentary of the article too as this theme has been quite extensively been discussed. God Bless.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

Your last comment has been denied for the following reasons. Don't waste your time posting her again. Move on!

There are certain kinds that will continue to post irrelevance in order to divert attention from the original issue.This is the trait of a religious internet troll who keeps coming back. They are only interested in one thing and that is to convey their assumptions, presumptions, irreverence, conjecture, speculations, exaggerations, guess work, etc... Their goal is to assassinate someone's character with figments of their imagination. They don't care about addressing the topic being discussed because it exposes who they are and they do not like it. In order to create a diversion, they create their own diatribe as "evidence" and use it to attack the character of the individual instead of discussing what is relevant.

This type of behavior is normal within the corrupt Church system when the Church King-Pin or any one his minions feel threatened. In the end, the true characterization of person is revealed by what comes out of their mouth. When someone continues to make groundless accusations with insufficient supporting evidence, it should be obvious what type of person they are.

As I said before trolls have nothing to offer except post irrelevance to the topic. So no, I do not take them seriously.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Now, don't you feel better, now you don't have to threaten me anymore and don't have to worry that people may connect you with this, something I think you desperately want to hide.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-22/news/mn-517...

I could be wrong, but when you run from simple questions it makes "the trolls" wonder.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

Of course you are wrong. The problem with you is that you do not investigate first, and then let your imagination about people get the best of you. The reason I say that I am among the Ekklesia are explained in these two following articles.

http://hub.me/agytR

http://hub.me/agBVc


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Finally, at least one answer!

I asked who influenced your thinking which you stated no one beyond the Bible, but I see in one of your hub pages you just gave me you are influenced by Justin Martyr, a Catholic Saint. Give me time to read your hub pages to see if there are any other answers to the questions you refuse to answer here and I will return to comment on your expressed hatred of pastors outside your ecclesia (that sounds like a cult to me) but know this, the problem is not me, it is your resistance to answer simple questions that have nothing to do with trolls or "provoking you into an emotional response that disrupts the theme being presented," and I still wonder what it is you are trying to hide by asserting these straw men. ?


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsadjatko,

Could you please quote my expressed hatred. I will assert that I disagree strongly and will refute the counterfeit positions of pastors within the harlot church system, which has been explained quite clearly in this article and within the comment section. If you want to challenge me in proving otherwise, let see what you have to offer to the contrary with Biblical precedence. I have no problem being accountable for what I write providing you quote the evidence and state your position to the contrary. So far you have done nothing except use false assumptions to portray my character. Quite imaginative I must say.

Also, pertaining to Justin Martyr, as quite evident in the article,

http://hub.me/agBVc

... I agree with the Justin's response to when he was asked were he assembled. It would be far fetched to assume that because I quoted him that I am influenced by, or promoting the Catholic religion.

So for you haven't responded or shown evidence that this article here is incorrect except for saying, "...expressed hatred of pastors outside your ecclesia (that sounds like a cult to me...")

You are still trolling until you can provide evidence for your assertions. Happy investigating!


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 20 months ago from The Ekklesia

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin, was an early Christian apologist, and is regarded as the foremost interpreter of the theory of the Logos in the 2nd century. Wikipedia

Born: 100 AD, Nablus

Died: 165 AD, Rome, Italy

Constantine formed the "official" church system that all mimic today. It started and is known as the catholic church, that happened in about 325AD well after the death of Justin Martyr. The fact that the catholic church claims Justin is no different than they also claim Peter was the first pope. Both claims are totally false.

However the catholic church started the rebuild of the temple system that was replace with Christ and the new covenant. The building the podium and all that goes with it. The costumes they wear, the titles they require and the money they need to live. A total parasitic existence justified only by those that don't mind being a host for a tick, in Jesus name of course.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

You guys are going a little over board here, all I said is P&N mentioned Martyr in his Hub Page in a way that would lead anyone to believe Justin Martyr's view has influence with him. Do you expect me to believe P&N mentioned him because he influenced Martyr's opinions? And I simply stated he was a catholic saint. That's a fact, I meant nothing by it. Your inferences beyond the fact that he IS a catholic saint are your own, nothing implied by me. See, this is another straw man you want to create that has nothing to do with anything I said.


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 20 months ago from The Ekklesia

" you just gave me you are influenced by Justin Martyr, a Catholic Saint."

No inferences here right from your keyboard. You are right no implications it straight forward says exactly what you mean. If you don't mean it don't type it. Your explanation later doesn't change what you already typed and your understanding of what you think you typed doesn't match up with what it says.

You do know that you are asking questions and answering them right?

You are also using the cut and paste method to do that. You post an unrelated question in this hub then you read another hub and find your answer.

There are many things to comment about in this hub, yet you have nothing to say that relates to the hub.

What is your opinion of the Senior pastor position in the Ekklesia? Why would you believe pastor is a titled position instead of a service? Why would you think (if you do) that services to the body of Christ that are freely given by the Holy Spirit should become a vocation? What of the other services should they be paid as well?


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 20 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Rich, seems ALL you are good at is cutting and pasting because you make no sense besides.

P&N you charged, "Could you please quote my expressed hatred?"

Quote your expressed hatred? Well HELLO! is anybody home there? Just start with all the sarcastic and even sadistic pictorials of this Hub page, depicting pastors as lone rangers, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, heretics, dictators, even Hitler! That’s what anyone would call “expressed hatred”! See a statement like your “please quote” comment begs that you return to what anyone would call “reality”.

Your entire Hub Page mocks Pastors throughout the world, devoted shepherds and dear saints of God, shows no respect, only hate for those who serve the Lord with the awesome burden that they choose to take upon themselves when called by God to do so, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you (Hebrews 13:17).” these are the duties of the Pastor http://www.neverthirsty.org/media/corner/read1/qa0... and I beg to differ with you when you say all other denominations summed up as the “modern” church act as if they don’t watch over souls for which they will give an account to God, an awesome responsibility which anyone who takes on certainly deserves respect. I have never known a pastor who doesn'ttake this responsibility seriously.

The priority of the apostles was the teaching of the scriptures - the Bible. When the Bible is seriously taught book-by-book and verse-by-verse, Christians will be warned about sin, be encouraged in the faith, learn how to live the Christian life, and best of all discover the character of God. This is the priority I have experienced in all the pastors I have known in “modern” day churches. If there is a “modern” church out there which operates the way you describe call them out specifically but to smear the whole body of Christ as you do, and think that doesn't express hatred? What a disconnect!

You refer to "the church" as an all-inclusive term that covers all religion everywhere except…except what? Your little ecclesia which, since you won't answer any specific questions about your ecclesia, appears to be your little fiefdom, could be in your mind, maybe you meet with one or two people, nobody knows because evidently you and God and the Apostles are so tight nobody else in the body of Christ can even know them. That is exactly how you come off, just as commenters here have already expressed, and expressed disdain for your lack of respect of fellow Christians.

Your writings have one theme throughout, that "the church", all "modern" churches (whatever that means because most churches didn't start in modern times) and anyone involved with them are heretics, not doing the work of Christ, although churches are sending out missionaries all over the world and spreading the gospel while your ecclesia is doing what? Anything to carry out the Great Commission? I think not or else YOU are ashamed to say what because you won't answer that simple, Biblical question.

"Christianity Today" says there are “approximately 38,000″ Christian denominations. This doesn't say to me heresy, this speaks to diversity, cultural, societal even geographical diversity since the important, and the basic principles of the Bible are usually shared by all. So are we to believe your "modern Church" encompasses all of them? You obviously have never even tried to investigate why there are denominations or what they believe and to blanket over 30,000 denominations as practicing heresy, which is exactly what you do and is not a Christian approach. Just look at these statistics http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

If you were honest you'd understand there are several reasons there are many different denominations and types of churches. For starters, let’s not forget that denominations are made up of people; and sometimes people just don’t get along. After all, just because people are Christians they don’t always agree. Moreover, Christians still struggle with pride, selfishness, and stubbornness, and this means they sometimes respond to relational conflict poorly. This has often led to debates and divisions within churches and denominations, which in turn leads to the creation of new churches and denominations. It’s an unfortunate situation, but a reality given human nature. Maybe this is why Jesus focused so much on unconditional love and forgiveness as an expression of the kind of people he wants us to be. But evidently your ecclesia consists of people who are not human, and always get along and to get along with you, they must all think just like you. Hmmm, sounds like that would be a very, very, small ecclesia, guess maybe one could call it a cult. Cults notoriously demonize true Christianity (JWs say born again Christians are possessed of the devil, Mormonism started with demonetization of Christianity, and so on) which you are doing by using the term “modern” church without so much as a specific reference to what that term means to you. There are a few central tenets that bind all Christians together, regardless of their particular church, denomination, culture, or geographical location.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers – Ephesians 4:11 " You say: "From the only singular verse that appears in the New Testament, there are some important things to consider."

"singular verse"? That this role is important is seen by the emphasis that Jesus puts on it in John 21:15–17 where Jesus charges Peter to feed and tend His sheep. How is a pastor/shepherd supposed to feed and tend the flock of God? He does this by being able to teach the flock the word of God (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:9) to bring the flock into maturity, and to be resistant to heresy. He is on guard for false teachers and warns those who stray that there are consequences to their belief and behavior. There is not just one singular verse about Pastors and one should never build doctrine on one verse.

“In the New Testament, the words pastor, elder, and overseer can be used interchangeably, with each word providing a different emphasis on what contribution the leaders make to the Body of Christ. The three words come together in 1 Peter 5:1–2 where Peter exhorts elders to shepherd the flock of God and serve as overseers, caring for the flock as they wait for the Chief Shepherd.”All denominations I've known adhere to these scriptures.

You say, "The man-made idea of a prominent head pastor comes from a desire of people to have someone revered to bring them to God who is specially trained and is to stand out from others within the "church."

This is pure crap; I've never heard of a head pastor, I've heard of senior pastors which is just that, the pastor who has been there the longest. In the denominations I've seen no one pastor makes any important decisions without consultation of all the pastors and elders, he is an elder. They, meet regularly to pray and to discuss issues. Maybe it happens in some denomination somewhere but you cannot paint all churches with that brush, unless you have an agenda.

When you say, "The definition of the pastoral office in our western society is not a Biblical concept, but a man-made one that is a distortion of a gifting." You are right, man-made by you. If there is a denomination that believes your description to be true you need to call them out but to smear all churches of today with these false representations and accusations is offensive to me and to the body of Christ.

You say,"The evidence reveals that the office of the head pastor by how it functions in the modern "church" is unsupported and non-existent in Scripture." This and your "modern church" itself, are fantasies made up by you, straw men, which you find everywhere as an avenue to vent your discontent.

So now I have answered your challenge I’m just dying to see what excuse you will find to delete this comment, which btw I would be glad to send to anyone who would like to read it, if you do delete it.


Rich kelley profile image

Rich kelley 19 months ago from The Ekklesia

Tsadi Jatko

I will not agree with you that ALL I’m good for is cutting and pasting. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt I have been known to make no sense at times.

Rich


Neil Braithwaite 19 months ago

Tsadjatko - First, I prefer to speak to someone who is not hiding behind some blog-comment name. You have my real name and if you wish to talk further I will need your name as well.

Based on your statements of adherence to some sort of “church” hierarchy, you obviously “belong” to or are a “member” of one of the estimated 43,000 “Christian” denominations (Divisions) today. You insist a disciple of Jesus must have someone in authority over them. Where did you get that idea? What did Jesus tell the disciples about a hierarchy system when James and John (And their Mother) asked to be in a place of authority?

“You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10

In the Ekklesia Jesus is building there is no hierarchy. All are equal and all are members of the royal priesthood and we are led by the Holy Spirit in all aspects of our lives and ministry.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and YOU HAVE NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO TEACH YOU; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2

As for having authority to baptize someone, tell me who baptized Saul of Tarsus? Was he a “church” elder?

You seem to be living by some sort of religious rules? If you find a sheep trapped in a pit do you wait for the shepherd to get it out?

As for all the divisions called “churches” today, “Jesus didn’t leave us with a system; he left us with his Spirit— a GUIDE instead of a MAP.

Man’s traditions and doctrines will never satisfy your hunger for the freedom Jesus promised you. That’s why church systems always promise a future revival that never comes. That's what keeps people trapped under the control of men. Man’s churches cannot produce spiritual maturity or community because they are designed to keep people needy and apart.”

There is a freedom in Christ that goes beyond all comprehension. I found that freedom when I left the institutional church system and allowed the Holy Spirit to guide my life and teach me the ways of truth.

It takes faith in God through Christ not in men to find that freedom.

Please take the time to visit my website and search for yourself. There are many links and posts that should help you in your search for the freedom you know you desire.

http://honorgodsword.com/


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 19 months ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Well "Neil Braithwaite," or whoever you are, given your preference to speak to someone who is not hiding behind some blog-comment name why is it you are commenting on a Hub Page published by someone who is hiding behind some blog-comment name? Or are you the calvary P&N has called in to fight for his defense? Are you the one "influencing" him? Cause I know he is under influence. So you know who is hiding behind the blog-comment name PlanksandNails? Convenient, to try and cast some sort of oness on me when your buddy there PlansandNails is operating under the same anonimity. Giving a name doesn't mean anything, your name could be as much a user name as anything so if that ruse is a sign of what your reasoning is like I'd just as soon not waste my time on you.

Nice try guys but you don't fool anyone, anyone with abrain that is.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 19 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Tsajatko,

As I said, I will assert that I disagree strongly and will refute the counterfeit positions of pastors within the harlot church system, which has been explained quite clearly in this article and within the comments section. You deemed disagreement and use your imaginary “evidence” to make allegations of hate, mockery, cult behaviors, etc... The fact is most of your comments have nothing to do with the article that I have written here. The ones you did quote were cherry-picked having no relevance to what I was trying to convey in the article. Either you do not comprehend the context of the article, or you did not read it at all.

((“Your entire Hub Page mocks Pastors throughout the world, devoted shepherds and dear saints of God”))

That may be your opinion, but I have made the DISTINCTION on what type of “pastors” I am referring to, which is expressed in detail in this article and within the comments section.

The passage you quoted from Hebrews is commonly twisted by the modern church leadership in churches where they believe that the laity is to be in subjection to the clergy hirelings. Unfortunately, there are many who are in ungodly devotion to the church leaders promoting a Nicolaitan system, which is forbidden by Jesus himself and echoed by the apostles. To quote Hebrews after what I have explained clearly in this article and the comments section reveals your ignorance. I stated that the words of Jesus Christ were in opposition to the Nicolaitans, which in Greek means “conquering the people,” and that he was opposed to making distinct hierarchical classes of people among the ekklesia where men lord themselves over others.

I make even more DISTINCTIONS with the precedence of Scripture in the following articles concerning the corruption of leaders within the modern church system.

http://hub.me/agxZI

http://hub.me/agnTR

http://hub.me/afuLw

http://hub.me/afTCQ

http://hub.me/ajk5p

http://hub.me/ajajL

Again, the web link you provided reveals that you probably have not even read the article, or the comments. I stated in the article that a shepherd is a person who cares for and nurtures the people of God, but NOT within the CONTEXT of a professional hierarchical title. The link you provided me about the role of the pastor reveals your IGNORANCE to the DISTINCTIONS clearly made in the article. The theme of this article is about the UNSCRIPTURAL role of a professional hierarchical hired position of the pastor title.

((“You obviously have never even tried to investigate why there are denominations or what they believe and to blanket over 30,000 denominations as practicing heresy, which is exactly what you do and is not a Christian approach.”))

Sure I have investigated them. If you read my OTHER articles you would obviously seen that I have. This article is NOT about denominations. All your assumptions in your comments here have not been be based on the theme of the article. Your sole purpose is to create red herrings and obviously to attack me personally. Even though you quote a statement I have made in the article, you use it for something that is completely irrelevant.

Since you want to bring up denominations now, here are some of my articles that go into detail about them. Church denominations are man-made and can all be traced back other men, NOT Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

http://hub.me/agnHc

http://hub.me/agHqD

http://hub.me/aiSyt

((“This is pure crap; I've never heard of a head pastor…”))

Yeah well, all because you have not heard of a head pastor does not mean that no one has. I guess you can take your “crap” issue to those in the following link.

http://tpcchurch.com/who-we-are/our-pastor/

((“Maybe it happens in some denomination somewhere but you cannot paint all churches with that brush, unless you have an agenda.”))

Denominations are not supported in Scripture, and the church is a counterfeit word added to Scripture as I have given you articles with the evidence. Did you not read my two articles that make the distinction between church and ekklesia???

Every denomination points back to a man who is NOT Jesus Christ.

I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ALL OF YOU AGREE, and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the SAME JUDGMENT. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” IS CHRIST DIVIDED? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? – I Corinthians 1:10-13

((“But evidently your ecclesia consists of people who are not human, and always get along and to get along with you, they must all think just like you. Hmmm, sounds like that would be a very, very, small ecclesia, guess maybe one could call it a cult.”))

Again, I already gave you two links concerning the meaning of ekklesia. If you read them you would not continue to make ignorant statements. Did you think this article would answer all of your questions? Some answers require a whole article, or many.

Furthermore, here is another article concerning the ekklesia you can peruse.

http://hub.me/aiTAE

Don’t waste your time trying to assassinate my character because of your personal obsession with me. You can call me whatever you want with your imaginary assumptions. I really only care about what the evidence of Scripture reveals to be the truth.

As I already quoted to you,

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, and for training in righteousness - 2 Timothy 3:16

So far you have ignored this scriptural instruction, but instead have used conjecture to base your opinions.

My advice to you is take a statement from any one of my articles within CONTEXT and apply Scripture to them to give evidence that correction is merited at the appropriate article. So far you have not done this once.

You cannot attack, or correct things that are figments of your imagination. Try using Scripture instead, but then again maybe all you do is parrot what your pastor tell you to without really knowing what it means.


Neil Braithwaite 19 months ago

tsadjatko - You need only to "google" my name to find the truth. There's a picture and everything! I'm a real estate broker - that should help you.

As far as you're actual response and also you're non-response to my comment content, you remind me of those automated "customer service" email responses that don't address a specific question/comment - and continue to do the same over a thread of what can only be vaguely called communication.

And I'm under the influence of the Holy Spirit and direction of God's word as correctly translated in scripture.

The following is instruction from God's word to ALL disciples of Christ - not self-appointed/called leaders in an institutional corporate church.

16 Rejoice always; 17 pray without ceasing; 18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 BUT EXAMINE EVERYTHING CAREFULLY; HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD, 22 abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but TEST THE SPIRITS to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY TO SEE IF THEY WERE SO. (Acts 17)

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and YOU HAVE NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO TEACH YOU; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. (1 John 2)

It's all about trusting and having more faith in the leading of the Holy Spirit than in man. This kind of trust and faith lead to the FREEDOM promised by God.


Neil Braithwaite 19 months ago

tsadjatko - You asked many questions in your comments and I thought it would be informative to go over as many as I could and show the other readers how your questions reveal your true purpose and position.

When you say one thing, you really mean something else.

When you say…

Who influences you? You really mean - who is your leader?

What outreach do you perform? You really mean - show me your works.

How does your system work? You really mean - are you in compliance with the religious institution’s rules?

Do you have a website? You really mean – let me evaluate your doctrine, traditions and creeds to see if they comply with my institutions.

Where do you worship? You really mean – Do you belong to an institution that has a headquarters of operations in a building called church.

How can you operate without a qualified “leader?” You really mean – The institutional church needs a qualified CEO to run the business.

Are you doing whatever you want as led by the spirit? You really mean - You need a more a “qualified” leader to tell you what scripture says.

Are you all biblical shepherds? You really mean - You prefer the institution to control and lead the sheep.

You are solely influenced by your own interpretation of the Bible without insight or consultation of any other human being? You really mean – You believe real Christians always need a “leader” between them and God to interpret the scriptures and keep them under control.

Your questions reveal your complete and total indoctrination into man’s institutional church system. You, like the ancient Jews and all those who run and support the institutional church system, need a leader to show you the way. You need a king that you must serve who will lord over and protect you. You need someone to tell you what to do and when to do it. You need to be able to give over your responsibilities to someone else you believe is more spiritually qualified. You don’t want to take any personal responsibility for your own spiritual journey here on earth. You put your faith in man over God. You somehow don’t believe that you can be trusted with the freedoms that come with being a true disciple of Christ that looks to him through his spirit for your every need. You need man’s traditions and doctrines to light your path. You need man’s traditions and doctrines so you can judge others by those same traditions and doctrines. You want to live by man’s rules – not Gods. You fear true faith in Christ and giving yourself over to the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit. You are comfortable in your chains and prison that the institutional church provides.

Jesus had words for the exact same kind of leaders you give yourself over to in today's institutional church. You can read his words in Matthew 23. They ALL apply!

You are who Paul describes in verse 11 of the following passage from 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


Whoa... 6 months ago

Just stumbled across this "article" and "comments." Wow, what a discussion, diatribe, etc.!! I tend to side somewhat with P+N on this issue. I've read and studied and thought about it many times and what I've "experienced" in American Christianity and its "churches" doesn't seem to have the freedom of the communities Paul wrote to. I could write more, but yeah, the "office" of a modern "pastor" doesn't seem to jive with first century practices.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 6 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Whoa...

Thanks for your comment.

We have the standard of Scripture as attested by Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) and the apostles. What we see going on in the modern "church" system today does not resemble anything like the example of the early ekklesia.

Here are two articles that show evidence of how Scripture must be twisted to support hierarchal ranks.

http://hub.me/akq5Y

http://hub.me/akrnu

God Bless.


Marcus Faith 3 months ago

I enjoyed finding this site as it ticks a lot of boxes for me, I also enjoyed reading some of the comments on the opening topic.

My problem, and it's a massive problem, concerning the modern version of the term 'Pastor is this. Today's role as a Pastor usually stifles the other functioning gifts of the spirit within the Church, and therefore causing havoc on the maturity of the body of Christ. I have yet to find a church where the Pastor is king and also find a fluid functioning of the other gifts of the spirit mentioned by Paul, this so called Pastoral role rules the roost and would usually take great offence at another member of Christ's body wanting the Pastor to remain silent for a while until they share what the spirit is revealing to them, just as Paul stated should happen in 1st Cor 14 v 30.(a humble heart would be able to recognise true body ministry, and accept that their gifting is not the whole picture and therefore sit down to hear from the lord via their brother or sister)

But what truly is crystal clear to me is why the lord desires body ministry and not a one man show...the destruction of pride through humility and the love for the other brethren. Paul clearly teaches in his letter to the Corinthians that God has ordain the body to function as a whole "only" when each part plays it's role, and that each part, when recognising this order, comes to depend on what others call lesser gifts. To recognise others as valuable and necessary parts of your ministry, a humble person will gladly sit down to be fed with what others have to offer.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Marcus Faith,

Many fail to see, as they have rationalized in their minds that hierarchy is normal. They believe elitism and being respecters of persons is earned through formal training in a seminary. The men who come out expect to be taken care in a paid religious vocation. This is in direct contradiction of the example of Yahshua and the apostles. Whenever clergy are created, it necessitates personal favoritisms and respecter of persons among the people.

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of PERSONAL FAVORITISM. – James 2:1

We should put our confidence in what the Holy Spirit teaches, but what is only accepted, or the common consensus in the church system today is that the only one to be acknowledged is someone having a "special" formal title before their name, as they are the ones to have sole "authority" in spiritual matters. They are the "salaried-to-serve," which is an oxymoron.

In contrast, as attested in the NT the fellow brethren of Christ were not taught in the schools of men because their authority, ability, confidence and gifts came from the Holy Spirit.

Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. - Acts 4:13

The titles that are attached man’s name is a distraction from the pre-eminence of our King, Yahshua Messiah and makes men the respecters of persons.

We are all called to be servants, which excludes any self-exaltation. This is a Kingdom principle.

I agree, the destruction of pride through humility and the love for other brethren is important. It is the foundation of functioning among the ekklesia.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

God Bless.


KingdomCome 3 months ago from those of the Ecclesia

PandN- I just came across this article and I'm surprised I did see it before now. It's taken me about an hour or so to read the article and go through most of the comments. It is noted that a few comment are from those who will defened the man made system to the teeth. They seem to take offence to the truth you have pointed out.

There is something here that most who defened their church system don't understand. And they seem to refuse to realize or they don't bother to think about. They need to ask themselve the simple question; What is the body of Christ? The most simple and direct answer I can give is this. Those on earth who are citizens of the heaven Kingdom with Christ as our King. Each citizen is a disciple of Christ who is the head of the ecclesia. The ecclesia is "within" the Kingdom of heaven. The Commandments set by the King are revealed in the word of God as it was establish during Christ ministry on earth. During His earthy ministry Christ revealed the standard for citizens of the heavenly Kingdom by example in His words and deeds. And the commandment to Love one another as He loved us. In short we are to be as He was, an example. To be as He was during His ministry.

From the very beginning of Christ ministry He stated; "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand." These words He spoke as He was choosing His disciples. And for the three and a half years that followed, the Kingdom of God was his core message to His disciples. As they learned the Kingdom message, Jesus sent the disciple out to spread the Kingdom message to others. This was a process that continued long after the death of Jesus on the cross. These Aposltes walked thousands of miles over many years and spread the Kingom message. The Aposltes realize their citizenship was in the heavenly Kingdom. This good news of the Kingdom would be written down and be heard for years to come.

It is sad to say the we have reached a point in time when the core message of the Kingdom of God (heaven) is no longer the core message by those who call themselves clergy. The word ecclesia has now been replaced by church. And disciple of Christ is almost unheard of. Converts are now baptized into denominational churches. Churches make their own doctrine and traditions that are not biblical and scriptrue is easily taken out of context to suite the needs of the church. Members of churches no longer received the Kingdom message because the clergies have no understanding of it themselves. Clergies now twist scriptrue to justify their pay. What was once the body of Christ has now become a business for profit in the form of Church.

Those who are now members of all of these false church systems don't realize the ecclesia in it true from still exist today as it did almost 2000 years ago. Those who have taken the time and effort to study the word of God as it was meant to be. Those who realize and understand the core message that was taught by Jesus during His ministry. Those who understand what ecclesaia really means and further realize the body of Christ are those who are the citizens of a heavenly Kingdom. Disciples of Christ who colletive are the ecclesia. We are united in spirit and faith. Together we seek the Kingdom of God and follow Jesus Christ our King. As we continue to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Great article and God bless.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

KingdomCome,

The priority of expanding God's Kingdom is missing in the church system. Many fail to follow Christ's example of being a servant. He said the least would be the greatest, but when you walk into the four walls called church, you find that it is not the least that are the greatest, but the salaried hirelings.

When we are in conformity with the principles of God's Kingdom, we will become aware of our responsibility as citizens to one another and to others.

Instead of thinking about how great we are and what our position and reputation are, we should be pointing away from serving self to serving others.

The church system is so enamoured with self-preoccupation in their own bubbles that they have created for themselves that they have no real concern for others outside of their denominational memberships.

When we seek first the Kingdom of God, the kingdoms of men must be abandoned to follow the example of our Saviour on the narrow way.

God Bless.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working