The Preconceived Notions of the Trinity Doctrine in John chapter 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. – John 1:1-2

Many will read this Scripture passage above with a preconceived notion that "the Word" is a separate person as "God." This notion does not hold true when the first chapter of John is examined more carefully and put into context. Not only does the text not teach this at all, but contradicts too many other verses in Scripture.

Old Testament Evidence

First, before we get into the finer details of John 1, we must set a precedent of who God (Yahweh) is. Yahweh of the Old Testament is the same Yahweh of the New Testament and is affirmed by reading the confirmations that are stated in Scripture over and over again.

To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD (YAHWEH) is God; THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDES HIM. – Deuteronomy 4:35

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YAHWEH) our God, THE LORD (YAHWEH) IS ONE. – Deuteronomy 6:4

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and THERE IS NO GOD WITH ME – Deuteronomy 32:39

“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD (YAHWEH),“and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I AM HE. BEFORE ME NO GOD WAS FORMED, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY AFTER ME. I, I AM THE LORD (YAHWEH), and besides me there is no savior. I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD (YAHWEH), “and I AM GOD. – Isaiah 43:10-12

Thus says the LORD (YAHWEH), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD (YAHWEH) of hosts: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD. – Isaiah 44:6

I am the LORD (YAHWEH), and THERE IS NO OTHER, BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD , and THERE IS NO OTHER, BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD – Isaiah 45:5

…for I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER; I am God, and THERE IS NONE LIKE ME – Isaiah 46:9

“You shall HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. – Exodus 20:3

Have we not all one Father? HAS NOT ONE GOD CREATED US? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? – Malachi 2:10

For you are great and do wondrous things; YOU ALONE are God. – Psalm 86:10

New Testament Evidence

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us THERE IS ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. – 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

ONE GOD and Father of all, WHO IS OVER ALL and through all and in all. – Ephesians 4:6

And this is eternal life, that they know you THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. – John 17:3

The Old Testament Scriptures that came before the Gospel of John make it clear that there is only one person, the Father whose personal name is Yahweh.

Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘WHAT IS HIS NAME?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” - Exodus 3:13-14

God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘YAHWEH the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. - Exodus 3:15

The personal name of God is revealed in Exodus; it is YAHWEH, not Trinity

Seeing John 1 through a Different Lens

Now that we have established who Yahweh is by Biblical precedent, we can proceed to the context of John chapter 1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. – John 1:1-3

A trinity of persons, the graven  antichrist idol god.
A trinity of persons, the graven antichrist idol god.

When reading these verses with an understanding that God (Yahweh) is one person instead of a plurality of persons, the meaning changes. It would be a presumption based on the many of the confirmed verses in Scripture that John 1:1-3 speaks of Yahweh being more than one person.

Additionally, the English translators capitalized “the Word” in the text to make it appear that it is a person (proper noun), but in the original text “the Word” is not capitalized. This is a deception because nowhere in Scripture in context portrays Yahweh as a plurality of separate “persons.” Once this presumption is taken away, John 1:1-3 takes on a whole new meaning.

The verses speak of one person, Yahweh the Father. In the beginning was His word and His word was with Him. There is no “Word” as a separate entity with a personality. Yahweh was His word and His word was with Him. The word that is “with God” and “was God” does not prove that there is another person, but “was God" is Yahweh. The “Word was with God” does not imply that "the Word" is separate, or a different person who is also God at the same time, but is the Yahweh's divine word.

The verses in John 1 cannot be used as “proof” text in the light that the Scriptures repeatedly says over and over that, “I alone am Yahweh.” To infer something that is not there changes who Yahweh is.

ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, and without him was not any thing made that was made. – John 1:3

If you believe that “the Word” is a separate entity, but still Yahweh, then it would be a preconceived notion that Yahweh is more than one person, and that this separate entity, “the Word” made all things. Most religious people will believe this through their indoctrination within the "church" system.

The truth is that Yahweh, the Father created all things by His Word which he spoke, which means the Word of the Yahweh created everything.


BY THE WORD OF THE LORD (YAHWEH) the heavens were made – Psalm 33:6

For HE SPOKE, AND IT CAME TO BE; he commanded, and it stood firm. – Psalm 33:9

The Father is Yahweh and “the Word” that proceeds from His mouth is the power and authority of the Father. His divine words don’t have their own separate entity, or personality, but “the Word was God,” is Yahweh. It would be false to presume that “the Word” is a separate person that makes up Yahweh by believing that “with God” is a separate person of Yahweh.

In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. – John 1:4-5

The life and light that was created from the divine word of Yahweh was Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah).

The subject of the text in John 1:1 makes it clear that it was “in the beginning.” This would mean that the “light” in verse 5 was created by Yahweh.

And GOD SAID, “LET THERE BE LIGHT,” and there was light. – Genesis 1:3

And GOD SAID, “LET THERE BE LIGHTS in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. – Genesis 1:14

Here we see Yahweh speaks His word to create light. The Father created light. To say that Jesus Christ is Yahweh because He is the "light" would be a quandary because Yahweh is eternal and not created, but "light" was created. Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) was created by the word of Yahweh. By the Word of the Yahweh, he became the light of the world.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, TO BEAR WITNESS ABOUT THE LIGHT, THAT ALL MIGHT BELIEVE THROUGH HIM. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. – John 1:6-9

John the Baptist was sent from Yahweh to bear witness of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah), a man begotten (born) of Him.

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and HIS OWN PEOPLE DID NOT RECEIVE HIM. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, WHO WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD. – John 1:10-13

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) was created by Yahweh by His word. Yahweh, the Father sent His Son into the world unto the people of Israel, but most would not receive Him.

All who would believe in Him and His message would become new creations becoming sons of Yahweh, begotten of the Father.

Light of the World

The problem becomes apparent when people make Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) to be eternal Yahweh and also the created “light” at the same time. It's a contradiction. If Jesus said to His followers that they are lights of the world, then by the same logic that would make them Yahweh too, but it is common sense that all created beings are not eternal.

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) is the Son of God who was created and sent to do the the will of the Yahweh representing the "image" of his Father.

“YOU ARE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. – Matthew 5:14

Let your LIGHT SHINE before others, so that they may see your GOOD WORKS and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. – Matthew 5:16

Every believer who has the Spirit of Christ in them become lights of the world just as the Son of Yahweh, Jesus Christ became the light to the world. John the Baptist bore witness of the light that would come. The finished work of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) makes a provision for all men to become lights in the world, being born again, begotten of the Father, becoming fellow brothers and sisters as Sons of Yahweh by the testimony, example and words of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah).

All those who believe on the name of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) are granted by the power of the Father to become Sons of Yahweh.

It would not make sense if being “the light” and being a “son of God” means fully Yahweh in the flesh, then it would only follow that those who follow Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) are fully Yahweh in the flesh too.

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) was a man in whom the Spirit of the Father dwelt. The Father also dwells within followers of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) too. What this means is that all who have the Spirit of Yahweh within them, and live and speak by the same Spirit are also “the word made flesh.”

Fullness: Yahweh Dwelling in Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah)

And THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. – John 1:14

The “word became flesh” is the Father speaking through the example and teaching of Jesus Christ. It does not mean that God, the Yahweh came to earth and became Jesus Christ. Yahweh did not put a baby in Mary and become that baby in the flesh, being all Yahweh and all man. The Father cannot be contained in one single body of any man as clearly confirmed in Scripture.

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? BEHOLD, HEAVEN AND THE HIGHEST HEAVEN CANNOT CONTAIN YOU; HOW MUCH LESS THIS HOUSE THAT I HAVE BUILT! – 1 Kings 8:27

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD (YAHWEH). DO I NOT FILL HEAVEN AND EARTH? DECLARES THE LORD. – Jeremiah 23:24

But who is able to build him a house, since HEAVEN, EVEN HIGHEST HEAVEN, CANNOT CONTAIN HIM? Who am I to build a house for him, except as a place to make offerings before him? – 2 Chronicles 2:6

GOD IS NOT MAN, that he should lie, OR A SON OF MAN, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? – Numbers 23:19

Yahweh cannot be contained, but many falsely believe that He dwelt fully in Jesus Christ making him "God the Son," instead of the Son of God.

Relevant Questions

“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, BUT ONLY THE FATHER. – Mark 13:32

If Yahweh lived fully in flesh form on the earth, then why would an all knowing “God the Son” not know the day or the hour of His second coming?

The Trinitarian will continue to say that "Jesus is God" by pointing to this following verse,

For in him the whole FULLNESS OF DEITY DWELLS BODILY – Colossians 2:9

As I had stated before with Scriptural evidence, Yahweh cannot be contained. The context of this verse is about having the fullness of Yahweh's Spirit, just as all believers in Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) have too. The very next verse reveals this.

AND YOU HAVE BEEN FILLED IN HIM, who is the head of all rule and authority. – Colossians 2:10

For FROM HIS FULLNESS WE HAVE ALL RECEIVED, grace upon grace. – John 1:16

If Yahweh left heaven and became fully man, then why does it state in the proceeding verses that no man has seen Him?

NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. – John 1:18

If Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) is the “Creator” come to earth in fleshly form, then why would he say to his followers that they would do even greater works than him?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me WILL ALSO DO THE WORKS THAT I DO; AND GREATER WORKS THAN THESE will he do, because I am going to the Father. – John 12:14

If Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) is the “Creator” in the flesh, then it would follow that we can do greater works than He who created everything, right? That makes no sense.

No one can do greater works than He who created everything including the "works;" therefore, Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) cannot be the "Creator" of all things.

Unfortunately, many are blinded by their indoctrination within the corrupt "church" system. When one is conditioned to read Scripture through a denominational lens, rather than through spiritual discernment, they miss the true meaning and message that is contained in the first chapter of John.

They fail to understand that the body of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) was the “temple” where the Holy Spirit dwelt, and we who are His followers (the ekklesia) are also the “temple” in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The indoctrinated will be eager to “prove” that their man-made doctrine was God coming to the earth as a man/God with their vast assortment of cherry-picked verses from the Bible used out of context blinded to the mystery of the Good News that Spirit of Christ dwells in us too. Christ in us! (Colossians 1:22)

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah), who walked the earth was a mortal man, not Yahweh incarnate. To believe this denies the gift of the indwelling of Yahweh's Spirit in all believers.

All true believers have Yahweh's Spirit within them to the same extent, or degree that Yahweh was in Jesus Christ. All those who “see" Christ, “see" the Father, just as those who "see" the followers of Christ, see Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah).

And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BROTHERS, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ – Matthew 25:40

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) is the “image” of the Father, and whoever sees Christ "sees" Yahweh. Since all true believers are in the image of Christ, whoever sees them "sees" the Father also.

Those who are in the “image” of Christ are also in the “image” of Yahweh because Christ is the "image" of the Father. He who sees the least of Christ’s brethren has seen Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah), just as those who see Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) have seen the Father. We can take this a step further and say that the least of Christ’s brethren have the Father dwelling in them, and those who see them see the Father.

The Spirit of the Antichrist

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) dwells in all true believers and so does Yahweh the Father. Jesus Christ and the Father are ONE in Spirit, which was promised would make their home in them. The ONE Spirit of the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. Scripture attests that all believers have only ONE Spirit within them too.

Making Yahweh a triune entity of three different persons makes the "Holy Spirit" a different person from the Father and the Son. To make the "Holy Spirit" a different person from the Spirit of the Father and Son denies the Father and the Son for another spirit.

The Father and Son will not dwell in anyone that denies that they are NOT ONE in Spirit.

Jesus (Yahshua) said, "I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

Do you see the problem with making Yahweh a three person entity? The "Holy Spirit" is NOT the ONE Spirit of the Father and the Son, but a separate entity (person).

The deception of the Antichrist spirit makes the Spirit of Yahweh and the Son separate, making neither the Father nor the Son the Holy Spirit.

There are only two alternatives with this false belief and that is confessing that you must have three separate spirits within you ("God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit"), or confess that only you only have one "spirit" within you, which is neither the Father nor the Son. This is a denial of Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah), the Son abiding in you since the ONE Spirit that is in you is NOT of the Father NOR the Son, but a separate person called the "Holy Spirit."


Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? THIS IS THE ANTICHRIST, HE WHO DENIES THE FATHER AND THE SON. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. IF WHAT YOU HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING ABIDES IN YOU, THEN YOU TOO WILL ABIDE IN THE SON AND IN THE FATHER. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. - 1 John 2:22-25

Scripture attests the every believer has ONE Spirit. The Father and Son are of One Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is NOT the Spirit of Jesus Christ and NOT the Spirit of the Father who are ONE in Spirit, then it is an antichrist spirit that denies both the Father and the Son.

I realize that this article may seem heretical to your belief system and will ruffle your feathers, but I believe that how we perceive Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) is of utmost importance. The consequences of believing in a Romanized Catholic triune Antichrist God with the twisted version of the Father and Jesus Christ will bring dire consequences. The Catholic Church and all her harlots within "Churchianity" believe in the same Beast religion (the Trinity).

I am quite aware of the English translations and corruptions of the Bible that appear to be saying that "Jesus is God" and that God is also three separate personalities, but when these "proof" verses are put under the microscope, the preconceived indoctrinated notions do not hold up to scrutiny.

The theme of this article is part of a series that will provide additional clarifications and evidences exposing the antichrist "church" system and their man-made traditions.

Do you believe God (Yahweh) is "God the Son?"

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Comments Appreciated 25 comments

celafoe profile image

celafoe 2 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

Thank you brother -- I have never received the man made trinity belief because When I was born again God showed me it was false. BUT there has always been something that I never could quite grasp, that was missing in my understanding . This article has given me the clarity I have been trying to find.

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK.


Liberty 2 years ago

So Jesus Christ is a CREATED being?

I'm a tad confused. Help me out:

John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

this is the same word in John 1:1 which was "In the beginning".

When exactly was Jesus Christ CREATED?


graceinus 2 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

PandN- Great article, but I have only one question. The following verses states in Revelation 19:13 NKHV : He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called "The Word of God."

This verse is referring to Jesus Christ.

Does this verse apply to this article? I'm looking for clarity here.

God bless.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Celafoe,

I am glad your understanding was furthered. God Bless.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Liberty,

In Genesis we see that God created everything by His spoken word, but I believe the context of "in the beginning" in John 1 pertains to another beginning which will make more sense with the following Scripture references.

That which was FROM THE BEGINNING, WHICH WE HAVE HEARD, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning THE WORD of life — the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us. - 1 John 1:1-2

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. - 1 John 2:24

For this is the message that you HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, that we should love one another. - 1 John 3:11

And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me FROM THE BEGINNING. - John 15:27

And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING—that we love one another. - 2 John 1:5-6

The language of these verses in 1st and 2nd John are very similar to John chapter 1, but we can go further into the other gospels as well.

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who FROM THE BEGINNING were eyewitnesses and servants of THE WORD, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully FROM THE BEGINNING– Luke 1:1-3

THE BEGINNING of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. – Mark 1:1

What stands out is that the beginning was when the Gospel was first proclaimed by John the Baptist. When Jesus was baptized by him, He went out in the Spirit preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was the beginning of the Good News.

In Genesis we see the beginning of the “old creation,” which was “in the beginning” and God created all things by his word and the light shone in the darkness. In the New Testament we see a “new creation,” which was “in the beginning” where John baptizes Jesus Christ in the water by God’s word and the light shines into the darkness. This is the beginning of the Good News.

These are the BEGINNING of the new creations of the Gospel:

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become CHILDREN OF GOD, WHO WERE BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD. – John 1:12-13

And he is the head of the body, the ekklesias. HE IS THE BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. – Colossians 1:18


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Graceinus,

I not sure if my above comment to Liberty might answer your question. Jesus Christ is the word of God manifested in the flesh. The Good News in Hebrew in verb form is "flesh." Jesus became the Good News manifested in the flesh when He received the Spirit of the Father just as every believer becomes the Good News in the flesh when they receive the Holy Spirit too.

In my next article I will be going into the book of Revelation to bring more clarity to this theme.


graceinus 2 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

PandN- Thanks for all the info. I will study further on this subject. And I'm looking forward to your follow up articles.

Many blessings to you.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 2 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

Hi PandN,

I just read your other article and asked the question, is Christ not deity? I should have read this one first. I believe your statement, "Jesus Christ, who walked the earth was a mortal man, not God incarnate" answers the question. That leads to another question. If Jesus is only a mortal man, in what or whom do you find salvation?


Neil Braithwaite 2 years ago

To all readers of P&N:

There is much to be learned about the doctrine of the trinity and this one post will probably produce more questions than answers. With that being said, there are some great resources that cover about every aspect of the issue you could think of. I find this site (see link) to be the best and most exhaustive. (Make sure you check out the second link to their Youtube page - it has dozens of mini teachings on almost every verse used by trinitarians to support their position)

http://www.thetrinitydelusion.com/

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheTrinityDelusion?fe...

I had always been taught the trinity doctrine and took what I was told as truth. Unfortunately, the same is probably true of over 90% of Christians today.

In my research of scripture and church doctrines for the truth, I found that the trinity is nothing more than a doctrine of man concocted by Christian theologians, apologists, and philosophers over a period of a couple of hundred years.

The trinity was not taught in the early Ekklesia for about 70 – 100 years after Christ’s resurrection. It began to creep in sometime after that. This link has a great piece on the history of the trinity doctrine.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-...

Check out the links I have provided above and you will have hours and hours of teachings about the trinity doctrine. You’ll find out things that will blow you away!

I want to say that since I realized that the trinity was a lie, the scripture has never made more sense to me. It was as if a huge burden was lifted off of my shoulders! I now understand who God and Jesus truly are and how the Holy Spirit works in my life.

It's important for anyone who believes in the trinity that decides to investigate the matter further to understand that not believing in the trinity doctrine does not make Jesus any less the Son of God or the Lord and Savior. And it does not diminish the Sovereignty and power of the one true God, and it doesn’t diminish the Holy Spirit’s place and power in the life of a believer.

I know you all read P & N because of Aaron's research and unrelenting efforts to expose false doctrine and illuminate the truth. The trinity doctrine is one such doctrine of man that must be exposed for the lie that it is. It is promoted predominantly by the harlot church Aaron continues to expose, so give the effort to find the truth for yourself.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Graceinus,

Here is an explanation that may help concerning the verse you quoted. I realize there are many "proof" verses in Scripture, but they are not all what they seem.

Many who believe Jesus pre-existed interpret the text as indicating Jesus had this glory with the Father before the creation of the world, he does not currently have this glory because he had relinquished this glory, and he is asking to have it returned to him. Based on this interpretation, they claim that Jesus existed as a self-conscious person prior to the creation of the world, but it is the contrary to the evidence of the immediate context.

Thos who make this claim take statements like "I have come down from heaven" at John 6:38 to mean Jesus was a self-conscious pre-existent being who came down out of heaven about 2000 years ago into Mary's womb. A similar idea is promoted at Philippians 2:5-11 where the claim is that the incarnation of the pre-existent Son is when Jesus gave up this particular glory.

If a pre-existent Jesus had given up his glory when he came down from heaven to be incarnated, and he is asking to have it returned to him, one would expect him to have said, "Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

At John 17:22, Jesus is praying for his future disciples. Many of these disciples do not yet exist, but Jesus said he HAS GIVEN these future disciples, past tense, this same glory. He does a similar thing when he says he had already sent his disciples into the world, "Just as You sent me into the world, I have also sent them into the world" in verse 18, when in fact this occurs after his resurrection,

"As the Father has sent Me, I also send you," and He sends them by ANOINTING THEM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. - John 20:21

I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word....The glory which You have given me I HAVE GIVEN to them. - John 17:22

The claimed interpretation is entirely inconsistent with all these statements. If one wants to interpret John 17:5 to mean Jesus existed with the Father before creation then one will also necessarily need to consistently interpret Jesus' words in verse 22 as meaning we, his disciples, existed along with him when he was saying this prayer. This would reveal inconsistencies.

Jesus was glorified when God raised him from the dead. So we know that Jesus is not yet glorified when he is praying at John 17. For example, John says the Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus was not yet glorified in John 7:39, yet just as Jesus said he had already given future disciples this same glory, he speaks of this glory as if it had already been given to him. On one hand, we see Jesus praying to receive this glory but on the other hand, he considers it to be already given to him in John 17:22-24

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I HAD WITH YOU before the world was.... The glory which You HAVE GIVEN ME I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one....I desire that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. – John 17:22-24

John 17:24 seems to clarify what Jesus actually meant in verse 5. Notice how Jesus refers to having been loved "before the foundation of the world" but in this same breath he also says, "My glory which you HAVE GIVEN me."

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see my glory which You HAVE GIVEN ME, for You loved me before the foundation of the world. – John 17:24

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, JUST AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. - Ephesians 1:3-4

God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which WAS GIVEN TO US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE TIMES OF THE AGES, but NOW HAS BEEN MANIFESTED by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. - 2 Timothy 1:9-10

Paul speaks about something given to us before the creation of the world. It had been given to us in Christ Jesus and it had been given to us, but that reality only was manifested in our time and space at the appearing of the man Jesus our Savior.

Jesus was not glorified until God raised him from the dead.

But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED. - John 7:39

Was it not necessary for the Christ TO SUFFER THESE THINGS AND ENTER INTO HIS GLORY? - Luke 24:26.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, HAS GLORIFIED HIS SERVANT JESUS, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. - Acts 3:13.

There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but THE GLORY of the heavenly is one, and THE GLORY of the earthly is another. There is one GLORY of the sun, and another GLORY of the moon, and another GLORY of the stars; for star differs from star in GLORY. So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in GLORY; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. If there is a natural body, there is also a SPIRITUAL BODY. So also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul," the last Adam LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. - 1 Corinthians 15:41-45.

These things his disciples did not understand at the first but when JESUS WAS GLORIFIED, then they remembered that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things to him. - John 12:16

Now, Father, GLORIFY ME.... John 17:5.

Jesus was not yet glorified when he was praying, but if Jesus did not have this glory when he was praying, and if he was praying to receive it, and if he was not glorified until God raised him from the dead, why then was he speaking about this glory in John 17 as if he already had it?

In verse 24, we find Jesus referring to the glory the Father had given to him even though he is not yet glorified. He says, "The glory which You have given to me for you loved me before the foundation of the world."

These two verses need to be carefully compared:

Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU before the world was. - v.5

My GLORY WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. - v.24

When we compare these two verses, the truth of the matter becomes very clear. The man Jesus, who was praying in the garden was completely aware that he had been loved by his God and Father before the world was. He was the human Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) and this human Lamb was foreknown before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20). Although he himself was not yet glorified, that glory was given by the Father to his human Son before the foundation of the world. God the Father glorified Jesus when He raised him from the dead and indeed, God was finished with all his work since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 4:3). Jesus is saying that his glorification was a done deal before creation because God the Father, in His love for his human son Jesus, had PURPOSED it to occur.

So will My Word be which goes forth from My mouth. It will not return to Me empty, without ACCOMPLISHING WHAT I PURPOSE, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11.

Continued in next comment block.......


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

The book of Acts makes it clear that when the early Ekklesia presented Jesus Christ to the unsaved, they taught that he was a “man approved of God” who was crucified, but whom God raised from the dead and who now is our Lord. Going strictly by the evidence in Scripture, the correct biblical doctrine is the one that can be clearly seen in the Old Testament and was confirmed again and again in the New Testament is that the one person who is God is the Father.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 2 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

If Jesus is only a mortal man, in what or whom do you find salvation?


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

As I am sure you are aware Acts says,

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” - Acts 4:12

That name is Jesus Christ. His name is "given among men" by the Father.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - Ephesians 1:3

Jesus Christ is the name by which we must be saved. The Father has exalted the name above every other name.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name - Philippians 2:9

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then THE SON HIMSELF WILL ALSO BE SUBJECTED TO HIM WHO PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIM, that God may be all in all. - 1 Corinthians 15:27-28

Jesus Christ speaks for and represents the Father who sent him to save the world. Jesus Christ is the instrument that the Father uses to deliver mankind. The Father is the ultimate savior and Jesus Christ is the instrument that the Most High uses to bring salvation, and that is why Paul says there is no other name by the means in which we are saved.

To answer your question, we find salvation in Jesus Christ.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Neil Briathwaite,

Thank-you for the relevant links. Hopefully people will take the time as you said to really investigate their indoctrination for what it is.

(("I want to say that since I realized that the trinity was a lie, the scripture has never made more sense to me. It was as if a huge burden was lifted off of my shoulders! I now understand who God and Jesus truly are and how the Holy Spirit works in my life."))

I concur that the Scriptures make so much more sense to me too once the trinitarian delusion was taken away. Most people who are in the man- made religious system of "Churchianity" worship the Beast and they don't know it. Their idolatry is worshiping men as God, and that includes Jesus Christ. The Church system deifies Christ the same a as the Roman Emperors in the first century as imperial gods. This Roman perversion of Christ is the mark of the Beast spoken of and revealed in Revelation.

John and the Apostles feared that the Ekklesia would deify Christ and worship him like those who worshiped the Roman gods. John's vision in the book of Revelation reveals the perverted twisted Christ that was turned into a God/man.

Here is the difference between true faith and false faith:

True faith - We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

False faith - Who is like him for he is God?

Jesus Christ came to bring us into the same relationship that he had with the Father, but his would be impossible if Christ's relationship was that he actually is the Father.

The Trinity Beast religion is the Beast that was, is not, yet still is. This was prophesied in Revelation.

The beast that you saw WAS, and IS NOT, AND IS about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because IT WAS and IS NOT and IS TO COME. - Revelation 17:8

Look up the trinity diagram here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

By looking at the trinity diagram we can clearly see what John was meaning in the above verse.

Can you see it? The Beast that was God is not God all man, but yet still is all God. That is the Trinity in a nutshell, which is Christ is God, not God all man, yet still is God.

The Beast of Revelation is a God/man!

If that is not clear enough for the trinitarian, let's go back to Revelation 1.

Grace to you and peace from him who IS and who WAS and who IS TO COME - Revelation 1:4

Lets compare this verse with Revelation 17 again...

...The beast that you saw WAS, and IS NOT, AND IS .... - Revelation 17:8

The lie of the Trinity is exposed in just two verses. The "Jesus" they follow and so adamantly defend is called the beast whom they worship and follow.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 2 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

It just doesn't add up for me, PandN. If Jesus was just mere mortal He couldn't save any more than you and I could - unless you also believe we are gods as some do. I'm not saying that Jesus is God the Father, but I am saying with no apologies that He is God the Son as well as the Son of God. Your teaching lines up more with Jehovah's Witness and Mormon than Christianity.


flpalermo profile image

flpalermo 2 years ago

Jesus is NOT God the son, He is the Son of God. If He was God the Son, then there will be two Gods.

Man cannot serve two masters:

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It cannot be more clear than that.


Neil Braithwaite 2 years ago

lifegate -

Jesus was human, just like you and I. He was human, just like Adam. But what makes him different than any other human ever borne is that he has no human father. Like Adam, (Called the first Adam) who had had neither a human father or mother and was created by God, so too Jesus, (Called the second Adam) was a creation of God, who, without God's intervention, would not have come into existence.

Jesus was fully human because he was born of a woman, but his existence was made possible from the seed of God - not man.

He could be tempted like as man, harmed like a man, and killed like a man. But he recognized as his father only God! He was filled with the Holy Spirit at his baptism and went forth from then as God's anointed Son and savior.

Notice that Jesus performed no miracles until AFTER he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit. Notice what Jesus said right before he died in Luke 23:46:

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.”

Jesus died on the cross and was as dead as any human was or is going to eventually be. And he had the faith in his father that God would raise him again in 3 days. Jesus did NOT raise himself - God raised him! Jesus is the FIRST human raised from the dead by God! There has never been a human raised from the dead before and there will never be another FIRST one except Jesus. (Note: all those raised from the dead by Jesus and the Apostles were only raised again to a mortal life. Jesus was the FIRST raised to an immortal and everlasting life, i.e. the "first fruits") And God glorified the resurrected Christ and sat him on the throne above all rule and authority until the end time when he finally conquers death. At that point Jesus gives back to God all rule and authority and is subject to God as we will all be in heaven. Jesus remains our Lord and savior, and also our brother.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a MAN came death, by a MAN also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28


flpalermo profile image

flpalermo 2 years ago

Neil Braithwaite:

Perfectly said.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 2 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Lifegate,

I am neither a JW nor a Mormon, I am among the Ekklesia outside the traditions of man.

Christ said that he is the vine and the Father is the husbandman.

If Christ is the vine, then who is the gardener?

"I alone am God and there is none beside me."

Since there is none besides the Father who is God, then what would that make Jesus?

If God has appointed Jesus "heir" of all things, and he IS God, then why does he need to be appointed?

Jesus said, “by myself I can do NOTHING" this includes SAVING from sins! Christ, therefore, SAVED us BY THE FATHER, the work of Salvation was GOD THE FATHER'S work.

The Father is our Savior, but he has "GLORIFIED" the SON because the Son was "obedient unto death" and now the Son is CALLED our Savior and is given a name above every name, but the FATHER did the WORK through the SON.

The first commandment says, “You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

If Jesus is God, it violates the first commandment.

Whatever Christ did was actually the Father doing it. This means we only have ONE Savior (God). Jesus Christ was God's instrument to bring about Salvation.

(("...but I am saying with no apologies that He is God the Son as well as the Son of God."))

What you are saying is that your "Jesus" IS GOD, and IS NOT the Father.

The beast that you saw WAS, and IS NOT, AND IS ...and the world will marvel to see the beast, because it WAS and IS NOT AND IS to come. Revelation 17:8

You are implying that "Jesus" *WAS* God, and *IS NOT* the Father, *AND IS* God the Son to come.

Sounds like the representation of the Beast in Revelation to me.

The distinction between the Beast and Jesus Christ is found in the beginning of Revelation.

Grace to you and peace from him WHO IS and WHO WAS and WHO IS to come. - Revelation 1:4

Jesus Christ *IS* a man *WHO WAS* begotten of the Father and *WHO IS* the Son of God to come.

The book of Revelation makes a clear distinction that Jesus is NOT God. In fact, it says that God is Jesus’ Father. It never says Christ IS God, or God the Son.

… and made us a kingdom, priests to *HIS* God and Father… - Revelation 1:6

If it doesn't add up to you, what evidence do have to the contrary as I would be interested in your “proof” Scripture verses to the contrary.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 2 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

Hi PandN,

The funny thing about the Bible is that if there are two starting points, there are usually two different end points. Many of the verses you use to defend your position are the same verses I use to defend mine - just a different starting point. I'm planning on developing these verses in a future hub, so for n ow I'll just list the verses with little or no explanation. I'll save the explanation for the hub. Also, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there are things I won't bend on, just as there are things you won't bend on. This is one of them. Anyway, here are the verses you asked for. Since you're dealing with John 1, I'll start there.

"In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word [Jesus] was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God." (John 1:1)

"And the Word [Jesus[ was made flesh . . ." (John 1:14)

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (Revelation 19:13)

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. " (I John 5:7)

"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 8:33)

"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:8, 9)

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. " (John 20:27, 28)

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. " (Isaiah 9:6).

As I said, I don't wish to argue or even debate. I'm simply stating my position.


flpalermo profile image

flpalermo 2 years ago

Lifegate:

“There are things I won’t bend on?”

You better check your Greek Interlinears for 1 John 5:7

If the Holy Spirit were a person, the apostle Paul certainly disrespected and snubbed “Him” by omitting the Holy Spirit in his typical greetings to the churches. He mentions the Father and the Son (Jesus Christ) in his greetings but consistently omits the Holy Spirit (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1-2; 1 Timothy 1:1-2; 2 Timothy 1:2; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3). The apostles Peter and John also greeted the brethren in some of their epistles in the name of God the Father and Jesus Christ, similarly not mentioning the Holy Spirit—quite a disrespectful snub if the Holy Spirit is also a person (2 Peter 1:2; 2 John 1:3). The Trinity doctrine is not part of “the Faith once delivered to the Saints.” 1 John 5:7 was added to support a Triune God – a doctrine of “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Be flexible and study this matter, before the word of God breaks you in half.


Neil Braithwaite 2 years ago

lifegate -

You accept the trinity doctrine based on the doctrine of men. If you study the history of the trinity doctrine you will find some very compelling evidence to its man-made foundation.

One very important fact you will find is that there are many documented cases of deliberate changes made to scripture during translation by men who were trying to support the trinity doctrine. This was a blatant attempt to secretly bolster the trinity doctrine in the face of those who held a unitarian belief. The scribes who did this, along with their willing accomplices, never gave thought to the future technology or discoveries that would expose their devilish scheme to alter the scriptures for the promotion of a man-made doctrine. This practice lends to the prophetic truth of what the Apostle Peter stated in his second letter:

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will SECRETLY INTRODUCE DESTRUCTIVE HERESIES, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

I urge you in the name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ to read these words of Peter very carefully, and then got to the following links and read (Or watch) every commentary on the scripture versus you have sighted and every other verse you may not be familiar with used by trinitarians to promote their false teaching.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-...

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/textual-...

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/category/videos

http://www.thetrinitydelusion.com/

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheTrinityDelusion?fe...


lifegate profile image

lifegate 2 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

Hi Neil.

First of all, I want to thank you and PandN for respecting conflicting beliefs. Much can be said for that. There are many here on HP that are filled with arrogance and pride and it seeps forth every time someone disagrees with their position.

That being said, I don't take the information you gave lightly. I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply. I have studied out the trinity and conflicting beliefs for myself, and have reached a different conclusion. I have settled the question long ago where I stand just as you have. Thanks for your time and preparation.


Neil Braithwaite 2 years ago

lifegate -

Not very long ago I held very strongly the same position as you. It was only through extensive research and prayer that I changed my position. I am in my late 50's so change isn't something that comes my way without great effort.

I appreciate your position and hope you will continue to seek the truth in ALL things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I will say that reading the history of the trinity doctrine had a huge impact on my position. (See the link I provided earlier) The fact that a Roman Emperor basically tipped the scale in accepting the trinity doctrine into the church that he controlled, with the "church" of Rome excommunicating the opposition, and in some cases putting them to death as heretics, and then literally traveling the regions to stomp out pockets of people who held Unitarian beliefs, gave me great pause that this is not a God ordained doctrine. Couple all that with the blatant changes made to the bible by trinitarian translators and the simple truth of the scriptures real message, and against all my will to hold on to the trinity doctrine, I had to accept what I had found to be the truth.

Blessings to you and your family.


Neil Braithwaite 2 years ago

To all those brothers and sisters in Christ who hold to the tradition of the trinity doctrine, here is a link where you can get a must read book on the subject.

www.bartdehrman.com/books/orthodox_corruption.htm

"The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture"

Dr. Bart D. Ehrman

Book description (From web site):

The victors not only write the history, they also reproduce the texts. In a study that explores the close relationship between the social history of early Christianity and the textual tradition of the emerging New Testament, Ehrman examines how early struggles between Christian "heresy" and "orthodoxy" affected the transmission of the documents over which, in part, the debates were waged. His thesis is that proto-orthodox scribes of the second and third centuries occasionally altered their sacred texts for polemical reasons--for example, to oppose adoptionists like the Ebionites, who claimed that Christ was a man but not God, or docetists like Marcion, who claimed that he was God but not a man, or Gnostics like the Ptolemaeans, who claimed that he was two beings, one divine and one human. Ehrman's thorough and incisive analysis makes a significant contribution to our understanding of the social and intellectual history of early Christianity and raises intriguing questions about the relationship of readers to their texts, especially in an age when scribes could transform the documents they reproduced to make them say what they were already thought to mean, effecting thereby the orthodox corruption of Scripture.

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