What is the Concept of Evil?

The term evil is riddled with many conceptions. Often evil is referred to as a type of entity, or a particular substance, but on the other hand, it is also subjective; that which is a non-physical immorality. The question remains, is evil a thing or a non-thing? If everything that God created was good as written in Genesis 1, then God did not create evil.

There is a common deliberation over evil, either God created it, or He didn't. This leaves the question to the origin of evil if God is all-good. If God did not create evil, then who did?

Can evil be a physical thing?

Can a gun be evil in itself?

The trigger discipline of a sniper will hit the intended target. If the target is not hit, the gunman will not be considered a “good” sharpshooter. Where does evil enter into the picture? The evil is determined by how the physical world is negatively affected. Either the sniper or target could be innocent or guilty. The consequence is good or evil.

God said that what He had made was good, but good things can turn evil through the mindful choice of free will to become morally corrupt.

Is evil a subjective illusion of reality? The fear of evil is a reality, or the fear itself is evil.

Choice

What if evil was the non-conforming choice, or decision that is opposed to the nature (order) of good? It is not something that God created, but man. Evil has denatured good which has been disjointed or abused from its original intent.

Here are some disjointed conclusions that have been derived from the perception of evil.


  • Man created good.
  • God is the creator of evil.


There is a distinction between moral evil and physical evil. There is the evil that has a collateral effect, and the other, the direct responsibility of the action. The origin of evil comes from the free will of man that determines the relationship between us and nature. Our bodies are formed of matter, but our personality forms the essence.

The absence of good results in evil, which equates to suffering. As we alienate ourselves from good, the consequences and collateral damage of evil cannot be avoided.


Definitions

The definition can be interpreted through a fundamental, traditional, or modernist lens.


  • Did the Fall of man literally happen?
  • Is the Fall of man merely symbolic?
  • Is the Fall of man a fable?


There is significant evidence that nearly every culture has a myth or story of a time when there was no suffering, death or evil. From the human condition, there is a desire for a perfect utopia where everyone is happy with complete certainty. The fact is, mankind has not achieved this, but there is an unconscious desire to reclaim it, or wanting a better state.

When there is a rebellion against good, the result is evil and suffering.

The question of why bad things happen to good people assumes that there are those who are innocent of any evil. There are none.

God did not create evil, but man did as as a consequential result of his own free will in opposition to the nature of good. All of God's creation is good, but the free will to choose one or the other has resulted in the disjointed effects of evil on all creation.

Evil is not the opposite of good, but the lack of good.


"We are either a victim or target of evil with no in-between."

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Comments Appreciated 36 comments

Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

Just a thought Planks, how would you argue this:

We do not have free will if were created by an omniscient God.

This is because if we were willingly created by a God who already knew what we would do, before we did it, it was his choice, not ours, for us to do it.

This is because when he created us, he would have created how we decide and react to things. So when people commit crimes or sins, it is because of the way they dealt with their experiences, the way they reacted to external stimulus in the past.

This can be easier understood by an analogy with robots:

I build a robot, who has 100,000 choices to choose from 100 million + choices to choose from, and I know which he will choose , then I know he will reproduce, and I know that his offspring will have 100,000+ choices to choose from 100 million+ choices to choose from, and I know which ones he will choose, and then that robot will reproduce, and will have 100,000+ choices to choose from, again with 100 million choices to choose from, again I know which one he will choose.

Did any of the robots have freedom? Or was it MY choice for each of the choices to be chosen by the robots because I programmed them to react in particular ways and do as I say they will, I knew what the robots would do from the start and went ahead and allowed it to happen.

We say that robots do not have free will, because they were programmed to do what they do.

So what is the difference between a man when he is programmed to do and react exactly how his creator has done?

We should also say that man has no free will.

Just as in the case of:

God builds a human, who has 100,000+ choices to choose from 100 million + choices to choose from, and God knows which he will choose, then God knows he will reproduce, and God knows that his offspring will have 100,000+ choices to choose from 100 million+ choices to choose from, and God knows which ones he will choose, and then that human will reproduce, and will have 100,000+ choices to choose from, again with 100 million choices to choose from, again God knows which one he will choose.

It would be interesting to see what you think of this, thanks, (up & interesting).

Philanthropy,


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Philanthropy,

Does the omniscient God that you speak of know everything that can be known, or have the ability to know everything one chooses to know? Totally, or inherently?

A robot can be programmed with a certain amount of information to function, but its nature is limited to the amount given.

Human's have DNA which is a complex code system for human life to function. This information far exceeds the complexity and intelligence of man; therefore, the source exceeds that of human technology (i.e. robots).

It is simple really. God creates *sentient* beings who are aware of who created them. God knows the consequences of going against His nature because He already communicated the consequences to the first human beings that He created that this would happen.

... for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die. -- Genesis 2:17

The lack of good leads to death.

A human technological machine does not know that its life is coming to a permanent end because it is just made to encode and decode a data stream. No matter how loud you yell at it, it will never have the ability of cognizance.

God cannot go against His nature, but we have been given the ability of free-will to decide to choose life beyond this one while we suffer the collateral damage of our actions, and those of others in this world because of our lack of good.

Right standing is obtained by acknowledging our rebellion against our creator (God) when He reveals Himself; we in turn communicate our decision whether to continue in our ways, or make amends.


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

@Planks

"Does the omniscient God that you speak of know everything that can be known, or have the ability to know everything one chooses to know? Totally, or inherently?"

The definition of omniscient I use is "the state of knowing everything" which is the one I believe the holy texts use too.

"A robot can be programmed with a certain amount of information to function, but its nature is limited to the amount given.

Human's have DNA which is a complex code system for human life to function. This information far exceeds the complexity and intelligence of man; therefore, the source exceeds that of human technology (i.e. robots)."

So here you state that the difference between robots and humans is that of complexity, but why would that have any weight on free will? If we built a robot that is more complex than a human, would he be entitled to free will? And to that point where in the level of complexity do we say "right, at this point of complexity, this thing has free will and below that, this doesn't".

"It is simple really. God creates *sentient* beings who are aware of who created them. God knows the consequences of going against His nature because He already communicated the consequences to the first human beings that He created that this would happen."

"A human technological machine does not know that its life is coming to a permanent end because it is just made to encode and decode a data stream. No matter how loud you yell at it, it will never have the ability of cognizance."

So here you say that it is also because of awareness. It might be important to first tell you that we have already created robots with "cognizance" as I understand it. Robots with the ability to learn from their mistakes and store that information as knowledge for future use.

Then I would argue that awareness has nothing to do with free will. If a toaster knew that we created it, it would still have no choice over it's functional capability. To that point, atheists do not believe they were created by a God, so are they robots?

Unless of course you mean the ability to simply think about your existence, realise that you came from your parents etc. At which point I would argue that this awareness and thinking ability is still just a matter of programming, because after all, God programmed us with the ability to think and be aware. So still It seems that being aware of something doesn't stop the fact that all of your actions, including the act of being aware of something, were made as a result of your creator.

Also to that point, is that because humans are capable of thinking, and are just a series of mechanical processes, we can conclude that it is possible to replicate in a robot, at which point we would still call it a robot, and still say that it has no free will because all of it's actions were as a result of our decisions.

As for the awareness of the end of your life, that is easily programable into a robot with our current technology. All you would need to do is have a stimulus "high edge" and an emotional response "sadness/fear" and you would have the same effect as when a human sees a high edge and a negative emotion. We are but stimulus-reaction creatures too, after all.

"God cannot go against His nature, but we have been given the ability of free-will to decide to choose life beyond this one"

But where is my free will? If God created my ancestors in a way that they would give birth to me, so that I would never buy into religion or morality, when did I ever have the choice of leading a righteous life? I didn't. If I was actively created as a result of my ancestors being actively created, then I am nothing but a robot, carrying out what my programming tells me to do.

To sum up:

My argument to complexity is that it has no relevance to free will: we would then be complex robots relative to the robots we can create now, in 1000 years we will probably be able to create humans or more complex robots, so we would be less complex robots than the ones we would be creating ourselves.

At no point does the sheer complexity of how we were made at all have any weight on whether or not we were programmed. Because, if we were programmed complexly or not, we would still by definition be robots and have no free will. As you say we now just " made to encode and decode a data stream", whatever stimulus we are given, we react according to our internal programming.

My argument to awareness is that it also has no relevance to free will because that awareness is itself part of our programming, and could be replicated in more complex robots in the future, because we ourselves function on mechanics that biology is letting us know more and more about every day. Even if a robot knew who it was and who created it, it would still have no choice over what it does because it was our programming that makes it do what it does. We would have programmed the robots with the ability of awareness Just like God did with humans.

And being aware of the end your life is just a stimulus-reaction process just like humans use and can be programmed into a robot just like it was programmed into us. Even that ability to fear death is part of our programming by God, and so we really have no choice or upper hand over simpler robots, we were just made more complexly.

To conclude, all of these points are about the complexity of human mechanics, but they are still just about our mechanics. Arguing that we have free will because we are more complex than other robots is like arguing that a computer has free will because it can do functions that a toaster can't.

If we were actively programmed by someone, what makes us different from any other robot other than the person who programmed us being able to do something more complex?

The complexity of our robots are drastically increasing all of the time, they are capable of learning, thinking and being aware, but we would never say that they have free will.

So it is wrong to say that because humans are capable of thinking and learning and being aware that they have free will.


AntonOfTheNorth profile image

AntonOfTheNorth 4 years ago from The Land Up Over

Hey Folks

If god created free will (humour me. Assume it is really free will) and free will is considered the source of evil, and god is omnipotent. . .

God created evil. God created the conditions under which it would occur, the mechanism by which it would occur, and the consequences (pain suffering sorrow) of evil occurring.

If we ascribe god with the feature of omniscience/omnipotence, then he knew the resulting action of allowing free will would be potentially evil.

If you believe the literal bible, he then spent a great deal of time warning of the consequences.

Why? This is the logical next question.

Did god create evil? No one else did.

Is a person responsible for their own actions? Most courts hold this to be true. We should do the same for god, no?

If I know the likely result of not securing a firearm in my home is that a child of mine will injure or kill someone out of ignorance, and still neglect to secure the weapon, I would be charged with negligence in just about any 'just' society we can imagine.

The god of this interpretation knowingly created the conditions for evil to occur. Either there was a reason or it was beyond the creator to stop it.

But saying god is not responsible and did not create it is like a parent saying 'I didn't kill my child. I just didn't feed him. He is dead because of his inability to feed himself. This isn't my fault.'

Oh, yes it is.

cheers


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

Aye aye Anton, planks has read "God Is a Sadist"/6 reasons religion is dying" so he would have heard of this before.

It can be explained even simpler I think. If God created the world how he wanted it (biblical), and evil /the lack of good exists, then that's exactly what he wanted for whatever reason.

I think some people will find it difficult to wrap their heads around the concept that he had created all of the necessary conditions for evil/a lack of good to occur, not going past the "this man killed another, it's his fault he did that" idea, forgetting that the reason he did that was because of the precedented experiences he had with the outside stimulus that God had created.

I'm glad you commented actually, because It reminded me that you're active on HubPages and alerted me that I haven't responded to your response on your Loving Creator hub D:

I thought it was you who went under the radar, apologies, expect a response in a bit.

Philanthropy,


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Philanthropy,

Let's take your definition of a God that knows everything; therefore, our beginning and end are known by Him. The beginning and end of human history is also known.

("So it is wrong to say that because humans are capable of thinking and learning and being aware that they have free will.")

If we have potential or an ability, it is the quality to be able to do something. Although we may have the ability, we may choose not to use it. Many do, and the action or non-action gives a result.

You may try put a cape on and shout doot do do do! but the restriction may come from how well the elongation and elasticity of your tights hold up as you attempt to make the leap :0

Is God the puppeteer pulling the strings to our inevitable predestination? Maybe so, but no matter what we may attempt, we will never have the ability to oppose the will of God.

Although God knows what happens when the curtains ultimately close on this life does not mean that we are literal sock puppets through it. When we oppose good, evil is justified according to the free-will actions we take in opposition to the law of good. With that said, God is not restricted from controlling otherwise, if or when He decides to.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Anton,

("But saying god is not responsible and did not create it is like a parent saying 'I didn't kill my child. I just didn't feed him. He is dead because of his inability to feed himself. This isn't my fault.")

You see, if God decides to destroy an entire culture including women and children, then it is His will, whether we like it or not. This has already been communicated in Scripture.

God has already seen the future and He knows what has happened which is revealed in the foreknowledge of Scripture. God ordained the struggle with evil as an option of His creation by His own free-will.

The free-will of mankind is the drama that's played out, but only God knows the real ending.

The force of suggestion in marketing is powerful, God's power and influence in the universe suggests that He is the relevant factor in the structure of life and everything else in the universe.

The basis of science is in the scientific laws. Can there be a law that governs free-will? If there isn't, we are free to do what we please with no restraints. In the end, no one is fully unrestrained due to the restrictive consequences of applying free-will to ignorantly or wilfully break a certain law. In the end, the one who has the most power creates the standards and consequences of the law. For example, many have freely tried to defy gravity to their own detriment.

In the name of Darwin we can kill the weak and the sick and selfishly fight tooth and nail to the top, but with that ideology where has it really gotten us?

Death and suffering in life is inevitable.

Scripture says that God is good and severe. That is simply the reality that we live in. Regardless of what we define as evil or good, the reality of the standards are set, whether one chooses to believe in them or not.


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

@Planks

"A robot can be programmed with a certain amount of information to function, but its nature is limited to the amount given.

Human's have DNA which is a complex code system for human life to function. This information far exceeds the complexity and intelligence of man; therefore, the source exceeds that of human technology (i.e. robots)."

So here you state that the difference between robots and humans is that of complexity, but why would that have any weight on free will? If we built a robot that is more complex than a human, would he be entitled to free will? And to that point where in the level of complexity do we say "right, at this point of complexity, this thing has free will and below that, it doesn't".

-------------

"It is simple really. God creates *sentient* beings who are aware of who created them. God knows the consequences of going against His nature because He already communicated the consequences to the first human beings that He created that this would happen."

"A human technological machine does not know that its life is coming to a permanent end because it is just made to encode and decode a data stream. No matter how loud you yell at it, it will never have the ability of cognizance."

So here you say that it is also because of awareness. It might be important to first tell you that we have already created robots with "cognizance" as I understand it. Robots with the ability to learn from their mistakes and store that information as knowledge for future use.

Then I would argue that awareness has nothing to do with free will. If a toaster knew that we created it, it would still have no choice over it's functional capability. To that point, atheists do not believe they were created by a God, so are they robots?

Unless of course you mean the ability to simply think about your existence, realise that you came from your parents etc. At which point I would argue that this awareness and thinking ability is still just a matter of programming, because after all, God programmed us with the ability to think and be aware. So still It seems that being aware of something doesn't stop the fact that all of your actions, including the act of being aware of something, were made as a result of your creator.

Also to that point, is that because humans are capable of thinking, and are just a series of mechanical processes, we can conclude that it is possible to replicate in a robot, at which point we would still call it a robot, and still say that it has no free will because all of it's actions were as a result of our decisions.

As for the awareness of the end of your life, that is easily programable into a robot with our current technology. All you would need to do is have a stimulus "high edge" and an emotional response "sadness/fear" and you would have the same effect as when a human sees a high edge and a negative emotion. We are but stimulus-reaction creatures too, after all.

----------------

"God cannot go against His nature, but we have been given the ability of free-will to decide to choose life beyond this one"

But where is my free will? If God created my ancestors in a way that they would give birth to me, so that I would never buy into religion or morality, when did I ever have the choice of leading a righteous life? I didn't. If I was actively created as a result of my ancestors being actively created, then I am nothing but a robot, carrying out what my programming tells me to do.

---------------

To sum up:

My argument to complexity is that it has no relevance to free will: we would then be complex robots relative to the robots we can create now, in 1000 years we will probably be able to create humans or more complex robots, so we would be less complex robots than the ones we would be creating ourselves.

At no point does the sheer complexity of how we were made at all have any weight on whether or not we were programmed. Because, if we were programmed complexly or not, we would still by definition be robots and have no free will. As you say we now just " made to encode and decode a data stream", whatever stimulus we are given, we react according to our internal programming.

My argument to awareness is that it also has no relevance to free will because that awareness is itself part of our programming, and could be replicated in more complex robots in the future, because we ourselves function on mechanics that biology is letting us know more and more about every day. Even if a robot knew who it was and who created it, it would still have no choice over what it does because it was our programming that makes it do what it does. We would have programmed the robots with the ability of awareness Just like God did with humans.

And being aware of the end your life is just a stimulus-reaction process just like humans use and can be programmed into a robot just like it was programmed into us. Even that ability to fear death is part of our programming by God, and so we really have no choice or upper hand over simpler robots, we were just made more complexly.

To conclude, all of these points are about the complexity of human mechanics, but they are still just about our mechanics. Arguing that we have free will because we are more complex than other robots is like arguing that a computer has free will because it can do functions that a toaster can't.

If we were actively programmed by someone, what makes us different from any other robot other than the person who programmed us being able to do something more complex?

The complexity of our robots are drastically increasing all of the time, they are capable of learning, thinking and being aware, but we would never say that they have free will.

So it is wrong to say that because humans are capable of thinking and learning and being aware that they have free will.


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Philanthropy,

(“…thinking ability is still just a matter of programming, because after all, God programmed us with the ability to think and be aware. So still It seems that being aware of something doesn't stop the fact that all of your actions, including the act of being aware of something, were made as a result of your creator.”)

What then does it mean to make a choice or decision?

The event results from another preceded decision or action. It is the cause and the effect. If God decided to give us free will, then we are *special* to the deterministic functions of our role in the universe. This leads to the complexity of faith which is a-priori. Since observation does not support this, the results are the ideas of pleasure, morality, choice, goodness, evil, etc…

Complex programming can predict a set of various outcomes. Within the characteristics of the results come the probabilities of what they will be; therefore, a specific event is not determined, but a set of possibilities.

For example, a human life will eventually come to an end because of molecular decay, but determining a very accurate time of death would extend the boundaries of human knowledge. Considering all the sub-events would be innumerable.

The decision or choice results either from one or a million or more random events, or it has already been made.

A lottery winner can be drawn randomly by a computer, or the winner is already known, but is kept secret until a certain time.

(“If I was actively created as a result of my ancestors being actively created, then I am nothing but a robot, carrying out what my programming tells me to do.”)

In a purely determined universe, there is no randomness and thus, no free-will.

Does free-will have a precise definition?

Since the concept does exist, it would seem that randomness is one of the characteristics of free-will.

Human technologies have the capacity to determine the life expectancy of a battery, but the state of the battery life is dependent on the state of the environment it is in.

The characteristics of determinism are that all the decisions that are made or eventually made are imbedded in our programming. On the other hand, if we are each “unique” in our being because of purpose, then there is a characteristic of free-will in a determined universe.

(“…in 1000 years we will probably be able to create humans or more complex robots, so we would be less complex robots than the ones we would be creating ourselves.”)

Chemical compounds, left to themselves, do not become more complex, but finally degrade to simpler compounds.

The coded information of life has been passed from the original inception of the creator to mankind. Man will not have the capacity or the ability to exceed their own human complexities because the chemical workings of increasingly complex order have not been shown to happen in observation or experimentation.

(“If we were actively programmed by someone, what makes us different from any other robot other than the person who programmed us being able to do something more complex?”)

What is different or unique is the paradox that free-will can exist in a determined universe. The free-will of our actions potentially affect the outcome of an event within the cause and effect in our universe.


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Planks:

I promise to keep this short, but perhaps what I am about to say may add a little clarity for some of your readers.

The Almighty created Adam and Eve and gave them a list of instructions...including do's and don'ts. If He had not supplied the list of do's and don'ts, there could not have been "free will".

If the Almighty did not put into effect the list of do's and don'ts and subsequently neglected to place the Tree of Knowledge in the midst of the Garden, then Eve would not have been able to exercise her free-will to rebel and sin against God, simply because the opportunity had not presented itself, or in this case, it was withheld.

The Almighty did not create sin, as you know, but He gave mankind and angels alike, the ability to sin and rebel if they wanted to.

My thinking is thus: the Almighty wants to know, not who is perfect, but who trusts and loves Him inspite of living in a fallen world and inspite of having a fallen nature.

He desires, I believe, to see who wants to remain living in the Garden (Earth) in a fallen state and delighting in all the things it has to offer. The Almighty also desires, I believe, to see who wants to seek Him, be cleansed, and leave the fallen garden in order to live with Him in Paradise forever.

So, did God create sin? Absolutely not, but He did make it possible for those who choose to do so. Without "choice", there can be no free-will. Without free-will, there can be no personal accountability.

Another well-written, inspirational Hub. Voted up!!!

Best wishes to you and yours - C.J. Sledgehammer


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

CJ Sledgehammer,

Thank-you for the addition of your commentary and I agree.

When I write in the agnostic and atheism section of Hubpages, I intentionally try to avoid too much theological text unless the reader wants to lead the discussion in that direction.

Of course, since you have brought it into this theme as additional food for thought, it is a great addition and adds to the discussion.

I appreciate your ability to see through the text and give your well thought out points. Thank-you for reading.


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

I still find it astounding that this ridiculously simple point is overlooked.

If we were created to do something, we have no more free will than a toaster.


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Phil:

What is it that you feel we were created to do?

And, by the way, I do not necessarily agree that, "If we were created to do something, we have no more free will than a toaster."

----------------

Well, weren't dolphins made to swim in the sea, yet there are some who beach themselves for reasons unknown to science.

Just because mankind was made for a particular purpose, does not mean that they must follow said purpose. The Almighty placed everything in the Garden that was good to eat and even that which was not. The Lord graciously gave Eve the opportunity to sin and she took it.

Peace out - C.J. Sledgehammer


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Philanthropy,

What is your definition of free will?

Can mankind choose something that is contrary or consistent with their nature, or can they choose anything?

God cannot act contrary to His nature, but can do whatever He desires within His nature.

My choice is known by God. Although God knows the choice I have made, does not mean that I did not freely make that choice. A future event will result in the choice I have made, one way or another. God’s absolute knowledge knows the free-will choice that I have made, and the outcome of that choice.

Although God knows what a particular person’s choice is does not mean that person has not freely made it.

("If we were created to do something, we have no more free will than a toaster.")

I believe we were created with a spirit and have a purpose; a toaster has a purpose, but no destiny, assurance, or certainty.

There are categories of time which are the past, present and future, but only the past and future can be measured. With God there are no tenses, but an eternal constant. He is not dependent on time and beyond foreknowledge, but has absolute knowledge outside space-time.

His thoughts are causation, just as are minds cause us to move. God thoughts move through us as both immanent and transcendent, but with God, it is one and the same.

• If I went back in time, I would not be able to change it even though I had the foreknowledge of the future because the future is already set by God.

• If I went back in time with the free-will to change the future, there would be two futures in contradiction with each other.

The law of contradiction stipulates time, but with God, time does not apply; therefore, the law is not necessary for Him. God is certainty, which means He has seen it before and has still yet to see it.

God determines the future, but our free-will is the fluidity of mankind within space-time. Free-will is essentially one choice or decision, which either focuses on worldly, or spiritual matters.

From the extremes of spirituality to the extremes of physicalism, free-will has been rejected for determinism.

I believe that God has allowed free-will as the sole reason for accepting or rejecting Him.


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

We wanted our toasters to do something before we created them, toast bread. We made the toaster in such a way that it would toast our bread. Therefore the toaster has no free will in toasting the bread.

God wanted us to do something before he created us. He wanted us to X. He made us in such a way that we would do X. Therefore, we have no free will in doing X.

Since God's will is unchangeable, "X" is every action that we do in our lives.


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Your philosophical viewpoint will only hold water, Phil, if mankind, like the toaster, had but one purpose and no other options. But, with very few exceptions, is mankind like a toaster.

Even a computer or robot installed with artificial intelligence may have been created for a general purpose, but that doesn't stop the robot from coming to its own conclusions and doing as it sees fit.

And, is it not true, that humans are even more intelligent than robots? Is it not true that humans are even more complexed than the most sophisticated robots and show even more spontaneity in decision making and can thus call upon a greater diversity of options and possibilties than super computers or even robots equipped with artificial intelligence?

Phil, I think if we used real world illustrations, we would see that humans are capable of the most brilliant and loving deeds, yet can also commit the most depraved and sinister deeds. Truly, humans can soar into the heavens or sink to the deepest pits of Hell.

Regardless of their original purpose, it is their choice whether they want to follow the Owner's manual or violate the terms of service. Is this not proof enough that free will has no limitations in the world of man?

Best wishes and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

Sledgehammer, you can extend my analogy to more than one purpose, even the toaster has the "choice" of cooking our toast to one of perhaps 3 degrees.

"Even a computer or robot installed with artificial intelligence may have been created for a general purpose, but that doesn't stop the robot from coming to its own conclusions and doing as it sees fit."

That may be true, but since we know precisely what the robot is capable of, since we programmed its limitations, it is said not to have free will. Just as we, mankind do not have free will.

You also fail to neglect the fact that God already knows what we would do before we did it, resulting in a situation where we have literally no choice of whether we do it or not.

Therefore there is no choice for us to "violate the terms of service".

He already knows what we will do. He intended for it to happen. Ere go, no choice.

Push the button (our creation), wait (live our lives), get the toast (what he wanted us to do).


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Phil:

You said, "You also fail to neglect the fact that God already knows what we would do before we did it, resulting in a situation where we have literally no choice of whether we do it or not."

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Now, I've already stated that my I.Q. hovers around room temperature, so forgive me when I say that I do not follow your logic.

Can you explain to me how God's omniscience determines one's actions? I fail to see the connection.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination.

For instance, am I to believe that if I visit a fortune teller (please don't try this at home) and this individual actually sees what will happen to me sometime in the near future, that the fortune teller made me do that which was foreseen? Of course not.

Just because the Almighty can see everything, does not mean that He chose one's path for them...it just means He foreknew the path one would take. He is, in this case, a passive witness to these events, not a participant.

Having said that, He will, from time to time, participate or intervene according to His plan, thus achieving a desired purpose or as a result of answered prayer.

Be well - C.J. Sledgehammer


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

"Can you explain to me how God's omniscience determines one's actions? I fail to see the connection.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination."

Foreknowledge and creation is the same as predestination.

Knowing something will happen doesn't make you responsible for it, doing something to make something happen does.


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Forgive me, Phil, you have a dizzying intellect, one which I am having a hard time holding onto.

I know you think you are onto something here, but I'm just not seeing it. I want to see what you are seeing, but I just cannot.

You said, "Foreknowledge and creation is the same as predestination."

I guess all those years at the university didn't prepare me for this kind of thing. :0(

Phil, I cannot, for the life of me, see how you can connect the dots from foreknowledge to predestination, because they are not the same thing. To predestine something is to foreordain, that is, to force it into compliance or to determine its course beforehand.

Did you ever know what one of your children were going to do, before they actually did it? (If your family is anything like mine, it must happen all the time). Now, did you make your child do what they did? No, but you knew what was going to happen beforehand.


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Philanthropy2012 4 years ago from London

I am struggling to see how you yourself, especially with a degree, are not seeing this.

Allow me therefore to use your own words against you:

"To predestine something is to foreordain, that is, to force it into compliance or to determine its course beforehand."

"to determine its course beforehand."

God is omniscient, he knew what we would do if he created us in the way that he did.

Therefore, when he did create us, he knew already what we would do, because he programmed us in our ways, giving us no choice in our actions "to force it into compliance"

Tell me then, how being programmed to act in a particular way, with the result of our actions already in the mind of our God, gives us any room for free will :) ? x

Your child analogy fails to be relevant, because I did not know precisely what my children would do before they came into my life. I am not omniscient.


CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

Phil:

I sincerely appreciate your patience.

I think this is where we draw the line in the sand. You said, "God is omniscient, he knew what we would do if he created us in the way that he did."

-----------

I categorically deny that creating us in the manner that He did (in His own image), which included the ability to make up our own minds, follow our own paths thus exercising our own free-will, in any way, shape, or form, caused Him to choose our destiny for us.

Creating us for a purpose, but giving us the means to ignore and or deviate heavily from said purpose, is not directing our path or making choices for us, nor is having complete foreknowledge a form of predestination.

You and I will have to agree to disagree, because I feel you are taking an assumptive leap that isn't justifiable or accurate.

Out of time for now, but will check back later. :0)

Best wishes and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer


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PlanksandNails 4 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Philanthropy,

The shortest distance from one point to another in the physical realm is a straight line. With God, who is outside of space-time, the points are one and the same. In a spiritual or supernatural sense, when two points are folded over each other, there is no distance between them.

Although both unproven, determinism within physical laws can make sense, but in the spiritual realm, God has allowed free-will, which is a spiritual decision.

If one denies the spiritual, they are closed to that awareness of the mind. Free will is spiritual matter, which is a choice of idleness or progress.

There is a distinction from a product like a toaster where the goal is to toast bread, and a physically created person by God. Free-will is the desire to be spiritually complete in God.

In science, an event is caused from a prior cause, but there is unpredictability at the subatomic level. The speed and position of a wave cannot be known at the same time, only the speed or position at separate times. At this level, there can be contradiction to determinism.

In a deterministic world-view, there is no absolute moral standard, just what one thinks is rational.

For morality to work, in the cause and effect, is the spiritual. It is the distinction between what we perceive and what truly is. True spirituality is not proven by man, but God Himself.


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Anandkg22 3 years ago

Everything God created is cyclic like day- night - day, all the solar system, seed fall into mud grows into tree and again seed falls into mud etc. As long as we keep speaking in terms straight line there are lot of things that cannot be understood and justified.

God is spirit and he has created us in his image that is spirit. The death Adam had was of spiritual consciousnesses and lived in physical consciousness (sin or bondage of satan - physical desires) and the ultimate message of Christ on cross is to crucify your body and bodily desires(physical consciousnesses) and live in spiritual conciseness.


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PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Anandkg22,

The laws of thermodynamics reveal that the physical universe (temporary) is running down and won't run down forever. Even the electromagnetic field around the earth has been depleting over time. The sin of man has resulted in a cursed creation.

The proposition of one physical universe giving birth to another (cyclic) would reveal a problem in that an infinite series with each cycle would have less energy available than the last. This would mean that the death of everything would have already happened. This would be evidence that we live in a temporal physical universe.

The physical creation that we live in gives an illusion of linear time because of the objective changes that happen in the physical. Our spiritual nature is destined for the eternal, which is outside of space and time. The physical realm (temporary) has always been the effect of the spiritual realm (eternal), which is God.


anonymous 3 years ago

I coin the term Deficient Theism and I believe in a deficient God and I believe that theres an evil demonic Devilish Satanic force behind reality. This is the only way to explain the existence and complexity of the world and universe and its the only way to explain the facts of evil and suffering in the creation. Evil can be classified into 3 main categories with overlapping. Theres moral evil or human evil such as selfishness violence greed crimes deceit genocides sociopathy and alienation and then theres Natural evil or Physical evil such as cancer malaria anthrax tapeworms screw worm flies centipedes jellyfish black widow spiders sharks crocodiles predation violence killing poisons such as cyanide and carbon monoxide birth defects tooth decay blindness hurricanes tsunamis etc. The final category of evil is Supernatural evil which would include the Devil or Satan and demons evil fairies and evil aliens and evil gods. God in the Bible often behaves in an evil cruel unjust unreasoning irrational manner. He allows Adam and Eve's sin to be passed on to ALL future unborn humans thus ruining human nature and He curses and punishes the ENTIRE creation with natural evils such as diseases mass starvation painful childbirth enmity with snakes thorns toil predation and death. Now innocent animals have to suffer and die as well as sinful humans. If Adam and Eve's sin corrupted human nature then how could we have total free will? If one adds Satan and demons as corrupting and influencing human beings then that leaves less room for free will. No one has total free will. We have partial free will. Nature nurture genetics brain chemistry and environmental conditions also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good. And free will does not justify turning the world into a horror movie. Natural evils and animal suffering and death make the problem of evil acute in a monotheistic religion. If God created all things from nothing or creation ex nihilo then God is culpable for evil and suffering in the natural world and is at least partly to blame for human evil or sin by conducting a dangerous destructive experiment with free will Satan and Adam and Eve. Lets see we have a forbidden fruit a talking tempting snake and a lurking Satan in the background. It's a recipe and the ingredients for disaster tragedy and failure. The creation was set up to be screwed in this manner. God is negligent almost from the start. He allows danger and evil in the form of a talking tempting snake(how does a snake even talk?) and He refuses to forgive Adam and Eve and goes right ahead with cursing and punishing the entire creation along with Adam and Eve. Its cruelty irrationality insanity and injustice. This God engages in overkill to make a point. The Biblical God inflicts horrific punishments BEYOND what we can imagine. Why ruin human nature? Why ruin your entire creation? Geology and paleontology show that suffering death and extinctions from Natural evils such as volcanic eruptions predation violence venoms parasites and diseases in the animal kingdom is older than Adam and Eve or older than humanity. Dinosaurs from the Cretaceous period from 65 million to 100 million years ago were afflicted with cancer tooth decay broken bones and parasites such as ticks mosquitoes and worms and many dinosaurs were predatory and killed and ate other dinosaurs. Even today malaria continues to torture and kill both people and animals. Physical ugliness in people causes loneliness. In America alone there are many men who suffer from unrelieved loneliness as they don't have a female companion due to being physically ugly mentally ill or mentally disabled. Nature is cruel and people are cruel. Theres a nightmarish aspect to the world. Horrors such as premature burial in coffins crypts vaults holes in the ground etc is unimaginable torture. Suffocation and claustrophobia. The pain from diseases such as cancer and from venomous pests such as centipedes and stonefish is beyond imagining. The two world wars the Holocaust the Korean war the Vietnam war the war in Lebanon the Iraq war the genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia the 9/11 catastrophe the New Orleans hurricane the Indonesian tsunami school shootings serial killers mass starvation of both people and animals grievous car accidents etc all make the world a hellhole. The world is a horror movie and the Devil is ruling it. A loving God cannot be in total control of this screwed up world. Maybe Satan and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for. Maybe God is partly evil as an objective reading of the Bible reveals. God forms the light and darkness and makes peace and creates evil according to the Bible. Morally ambivalent or a mix of good and evil. Yahweh has a Jekyll and Hyde personality which can be seen in His behavior in the Bible and in the Nature He created. Did God create Satan and demons? Did God intentionally and knowingly create the ability to rebel within angels? If Satan was all good before he rebelled against God then how could he become so bad? Is evil created from God or does evil exist in a vacuum? Evil seems to come out of nowhere. Evil is not just an absence of good. Malaria and cancer are not just an absence of good. They are positively evil things or evil entities which exist to cause suffering and death to their victims. The venoms and venomous fangs and venomous stings and venomous spines of spiders centipedes scorpions snakes and stonefish are evil in themselves. Nature and the natural world is built on survival and reproduction. Unfortunately its only through pain suffering death and extinctions that life on earth can continue to exist. The world is a vast slaughterhouse. Vile repulsive excrement is everywhere as well. Theres an ugly repulsive violent dangerous cruel side to Nature. Intense hest and intense cold contribute to causing suffering and death. Grievous accidents and injuries continue to make life a hell. Finally the Bible teaches the monstrous concept of hell or eternal punishment where the mass of humanity will end up with fire worms suffocation excrement demons and Satan. Yes people are sinful and evil and need to be punished for their sins but this is MONSTROUS. This concept of hell is sadistic fiendish diabolic malevolent monstrous inhuman cruelty beyond imagining and beyond belief. There are more merciful humane intelligent and constructive ways to punish human sin than this. This world is such a quagmire of evil that Im convinced that the Devil rules rhis world and not a loving God. Dualistic religions such as Zoroastrianism Manicheism and Gnosticism believe that God's power is limited and that the Devil rules the world. In Job Satan physically tortures and kills whereas in other parts of the Bible Satan is better known as liar tempter and deceiver. If blame for all Natural evil and for all human evil and sin is to be thrown on Satan and demons then why does God allow it? Theres a lot to fear.


anonymous 3 years ago

I continue as anonymous. God maybe partly evil or a Jekyll and Hyde as I mentioned before. Its also possible that God is irrational or insane. He is irrational and insane in a cruel manner. The line between being evil and being insane is a thin one. If God is insane enough to create or allow diseases mass starvation etc then this insanity starts to look like its evil. When someone or something is insane in such a way that they inclict or allow suffering and evil then this becomes a moral issue and the insane person or insane thing or insane God starts to resemble an evil person or an evil being. Maybe God is mentally blind or morally blind and is unable to see the cruelty the wrong the insanity and immorality of having and allowing rampant evil sin suffering and death. Why must rampant depravity have to be a prerequisite of free will? Why must horrific evils have to result because oc Adam and Eve 's sin? God is unfair unjust unwise irrational and cruel for allowing Adam and Eve's sin to be passed on to all future unborn humans and for cursing and punishing the entire creation for Adam and Eve's sin. This unjust unreasoning God is making everyone and everything pay for Adam and Eve's sin. The entire creation has been ruined and flushed down the toilet. How much free will do jellyfish mosquitoes cancer and anthrax have? These scourges of Nature are blind and amoral and are programmed by the creator to cause suffering and death to their victims as a way of survival. It should also be pointed out that the bodies and brains of human beings and that of many animals are full of defects and deficiencies. The heart the blood vessels the brain the teeth the urinary system the sromach the kidneys etc are afflicted with defects ailments and diseases. Heart disease stroke aneurysm meningitis tooth decay migraine headache cancer arthritis diabetes incontinence psoriasis kidney stone and other scourges torture and kill both people and animals. The Devil oc Zoroastrianism Angra-mainyu or Ahriman is blamed fof creating Natural evils such as diseases mosquitoes scorpions snakes ants intense cold intense heat and death. The Egyptian Set maybe the earliest written version of the Devil and personifies deserts storms and chaos. The Hebrew Satan of the Bible is better known as liar tempter and deceiver. Only in Job does Satan inflict physical torture and killing. God has some kind of deficiency in Him if He chooses to allow eons of suffering sin death and evil.


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PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Anonymous,

According to the Bible, we now have have the knowledge of good and evil. You have decscribed what you percieve as physical, spiritural and natural evils, but who makes the standard for these concepts you are using? If there are no absolutes, then all is realtive to one's own personal opinion. What you may believe is good could be is evil to someone else. Who decides? It is clear what you have decided to believe. That is your choice, but the only problem is that not all will agree with you.

Scripture says God is good. The things God does may be percieved as evil, but that does not change God's absolute goodness. Good and evil is definded by what God says, not by what we say, percieve it to be, or whether we understand it or not. God does not conform to the standards we put on Him, but the standards He gives us. We have the freedom to reject those standards, and will be held in account for them if we choose not to accept them.

It is hopeless to play the blame game by blaming God for the consequences of mans own choice to do contrary to His will. There is only hope by accepting God's grace that forgives the sin/evil within us, and that one day He will eradicate all evil in the world. Those that choose Him will live in His flawless precence for eternity.

People harp on evil, but they cannot do it without acknowledging the prescence of good. Without a God who created the universe and established what is good and evil, then these concepts are reduced to personal choice.

You can either trust God despite not knowing everything, or let our emotional reasoning to make relative definitions of good and evil.

God has chosen for us not to be automatons who are programmed, but have the ability to choose good or evil. The decisions we make will have an impact on us and everything around us. We must accept that in the real world the choices we make have consequences. Most choose their own way in life and blame God for having the freedom to do so. Evil is the consequence allowed by God on those who choose to do contrary to His ways. All of us are guilty of doing this.

God has given us a cure for evil and that is through Jesus Christ who will one day rid the worlf of all evil.


anonymous 3 years ago

I believe that moral man(not just any man) is the only moral part of the creation. I believe that a morally sensitive person such as myself is wiser more moral more merciful and more humane than the morally unevolved violent barbaric cruel God of the Bible. Your argument is circular like all Fundamentalists. So God is good because He is God and the Bible is the true word of God because its the Bible? I don't agree. God or the Biblical God is good by His own unknowable standards but by any decent human moral standards this God is cruel immoral insane. How does an all good God create stonefish malaria centipedes black widow spiders heart disease hurricanes tsunamis birth defects tapeworms? How much free will do mosquitoes have? Furthermore if one believes that God is omniscient or all knowing the problem of evil becomes more glaring because this would suggest God knew long before He created humans that they would become sinful and that He would have to punish them or neglect them in this earthly life and that He would have to create a fiery hell to torture billions of them forever. This experiment with free will Satan and Adam and Eve was a recipe for disaster tragedy and failure. It was a ticking time bomb. This God has chosen one of the worst ways to run a creation. Its a misrun mismanaged creation. God's failure and incompetence benefits the Devil and is a victory for the Devil. Free will all too often favors evil in this world. Free will more often favors the evil actions of evil people and not the free will of their victims. Is the free will of Vlad the Impaler Hitler Stalin Jeffrey Dahmer Ted Bundy the Zodiac Killer and Gary Ridgeway more important than their victims? What about the free will of their victims who wished not to be tortured enslaved raped and killed? Why must rampant depravity be a prerequisite of free will? The quantity of human evil and the horrific nature of human evil has turned the world into a horror movie. If God knew that by creating a certain angel who later became Satan would corrupt and ruin His creation then was it right to create this certain angel? The Biblical God doesn't believe in preventing evil. This is unwise and insane. If I as creator knew that free will Satan and Adam and Eve were sll going to ruin my creation then I would not do it. Simple. Don't create them. Don't do it. This God has ruined and flushed His creation down the toilet. The earthly life is a hell and the next life will be a vastly worse hell for billions of people who will be tortured forever in a lake of fire. This is sick. This is not love and mercifulness. This is not what an all good being would do. By any decent human moral standards the Biblical God or Yahweh is an insane cruel unjust unreasoning monster. He has no common sense and He has no reasoning. Authir Mark Twain weote that the Biblical God mouths morals and mercifulness and has none Himself. As I wrote before this God has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. "I form light and create darkness I make peace and create evil."(King James Bible.) This God kills 70000 men because David took a census and He threatens His chosen people with turning into cannibals and mothers shall eat their babies. Its an Eldritch Abomination or a moral monstrosity. He supposedly hates violence and killing and yet He inflicts violence and killing by the millions in the Bible and the Nature He created or caused is full of violence and killing. So He does what He forbids and He forbids what He does and He creates what He forbids and He forbids what He creates or He causes what He forbids and He forbids what He causes. Its a mentally incomprehensible morally conflicting contradictory confusing morally impossible God with more contradictions in Him than Charles Manson. I believe Hes partly evil and I believe He is insane mentally blind and morally blind. This God cannot see sin in His cruel inhumane punishments and He cannot see sin in His cruelty and negligence and He csnnot see sin in the suffering and evils which He ALLOWS. Its an absentee landlord for a God who allows all manner of evils cruelties miseries and horrors to continue ad nauseaum ad infinitum. This is not love and mercifulness. Thus is cruelty insanity incompetence and negligence. This is immoral. That's why I believe God is deficient. Not so good or not so moral or not so powerful or not so wise. He is probably insane as well. Deism and Dystheism are two examples of a deficient God. Maybe theres more than one God and at least one of the Gods is evil or partly evil. Or Satan and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for and its the Devil and his minions who are winnijg this cosmic war and who are ruling this screwed up world. A deficient God or deficient Gods and an evil demonic Devilish Satanic force is the only explanation that can explain the evils cruelties miseries and horrors in the world.


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PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

People will agree and disagree. That is something you must accept. What someone finds to be evil, the other will find good. Some believe God to be good, others believe Him to be evil. You have your freedom of opinion. God created the absolute spiritual and physical laws over mankind. They won't change based on our emotional rants or disagreement. You may either accept or deny God as you choose.

We cannot fully fathom all of who God is, but He has given His written Word and His standard to discover His character.

We are determined for destruction because of sin, but God has given us a way out. We have the ability of our free-will to accept His grace and choose our eternal destiny.

I believe that I have chosen my destiny and fully accept it. The fate of this fallen world is determined. Jesus Christ is the only way out, but requires free will to accept it. Without Him, mankind will be left to their determined fate.


anonymous 3 years ago

But doesn't the Bible itself say that God creates evil or causes evil? Its not just my opinion that the Biblical God is partly evil. Its not just my perception but the Bible itself says so. "I form light and create darkness I make peace and create evil." (King James Bible.) This God has a split personality like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Isn't this disturbing and scary? It is to me. Reading the Bible OBJECFIVELY God has both good and evil in Him. So why don't theologians and churches wake up and acknowledge and admit this and start integrating or start including evil as one of the attributes of God. I also think Hes insane and unreasoning. So if He is partly evil insane and unreasoning as I think He is then He is unfit to worship and He is unfit to judge us. This God allows good people to suffer and die and He allows good innocent animals to suffer and die. So why should we think He is going to judge fairly when it comes to the next life? If He allows rampant suffering and evil to continue ad nauseaum ad infinitum in this earthly life then He may torture His creatures in the next life. Im probably going to be sent to hell. This God angers some people so much that people become either atheists agnostics heretics apostates pagans or Satanists. He drives people to rebel against Him by His cruelty and negligence. He has no intelligent constructive humane solution to offer us. He allows us to remain in our sinfulness and our defects and He allows us to suffer and die. He creates the conditions for people to rebel against Him or He allows these conditions to fester and then He He is going to throw people into hell to be roasted like charcoals forever. Its sick. Its beyond sick. Free will does not justify turning the world into a hellhole and horror movie and does not justify having an eternal torture chamber in hell for billions of people in the next life. This is a sick cruel stupid insane immoral way of running a creation. Its a misrun mismanaged creation and this is a victory for the Devil and a victory for evil. Furthermore a lot of the Bible is vague ambiguous unclear and full of contradictions from Genesis to Revelation. Look at all the different Churches denominations and sects and all the different Bible translations with each one yelling something different and each one claiming that only they are right and everyone else is wrong. The Bible has csused more disagreement division contradiction confusion and arguing than any other book. I think the meaning of the Bible was long lost by the mostly unknown authors sho wrote them. Christ should not have left earth. He left His message in clumsy fumbling hands. The Christian community is a divided Tower of Babel. Its aggravating. If the Bible is the word of God then why didn't He make Himself clear? Today the division and confusion rages on. Almost from the start of its history in the first century Christianity was afflicted with dissent disagreement division and confusion. Martin Luthers Protestant Reformation greatly worsened the division and confusion. All this division and confusion is a victory for the Devil. The Devil rules this screwed up world. A loving wise God does not. Hopeless.


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PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

God has allowed evil to give us a choice whether to worship Him or not. If He didn't we would be worshiping Him out of obligation instead of by our own choice. You seem to have made yours, but you seem dissatisfied and hopeless with your decision.

Evil on its own does not exist; it requires the absence of good. Rejecting good results in evil just like the absence of heat is cold.

We are not robots that are programmed to worship God because He wants us to. He wants us to want to worship Him out of choice.

God's perspective is eternal and holy. Man's perspective is earthly and temporal. You questions cannot be fully answered on this side of things.


anonymous 3 years ago

This God of the Bible is mentally questionable and morally questionable. I really feel He is irrational insane unreasoning. He has no common sense. He has chosen to ruin human nature and ruin His entire creation for free will. This is insane and immoral. As I explained before no one has total free will. Nature nurture genes brain chemistry and environmental conditions also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good. And free will does not justify turning the world into a hellhole and horror movie and does not justify having an eternal hell for the next life where sinners and unsaved people will be roasting like charcoals forever with Satan and demons. If one argues that Satan and demons influence and corrupt humans then how could we have total free will? If Adam and Eve's sin corrupted all future unborn humans(which is unfair and unjust to allow) then how could we have total free will if Adam and Eve's sin has made us so prone to sin? Why must depravity and horrific evils and cruelties have to be prerequisites of free will? Almost worldwide misery is the end result of free will. And what do Natural evils such as cancer malaria tooth decay hurricanes tsunamis centipedes tapeworms etc have to do with free will? Whose free will is to blame for blood sucking disease causing mosquitoes and ticks? Mosquitoes and ticks don't have much free will in what they do(which is torturing and killing animals and people.) Nature or the creator designed them with certain mouthparts and instincts to suck the blood of other organisms. They have no choice in their behavior. Nature or the creator designed and programmed them to inflict suffering and death to other organisms to sustain their perverse nourishment. What good does this God think He is doing by continuing to allow all this human cruelty and natural cruelty? Human nature isn't going to heal by itself. God has to heal it. And Nature with all its defects deficiencies and cruelties isn't going to heal by itself. God has to heal it. He has failed to heal it and continues to fail. God's failure is a victory for the Devil. That's why I believe in a deficient God or Process Theology. Deism or Dystheism better explains reality. What is the belief in an insane God called? I think its time we came out with a name to describe an insane God who creates or who allows evil and suffering. This God is playing a cruel immoral game or conducting a cruel immoral experiment. The story of Job comes to mind where God allows Satan to cause physical torture to test a man's faith. Its a cruel sick test and how many people are failing this test? Not all of us can be as resilient as Job. I think its insane and sick to torture someone to prove their love and faith. This God allows horrific suffering just to see how much we can take until we turn away from Him. Its sick and disturbing. If God is all knowing He would know how people would react when confronted by suffering. The Biblical God on the other hand behaves as if He doesn't know what will happen. This God just folds His hands and allows all manner of evil cruelties miseries and horrors to continue ad nauseaum ad infinitum. He has no intelligent constructive humane solution to offer us. Cruelty negligence incomptence irrationality insanity injustice and destructiveness are His ways. This irresponsible God has abdicated the world to the Devil. If this God doesn't start healing this cursed broken creation soon then happiness in this world isn't going to be worth a can of beans. This screwed up creation isnt going to heal by itself. God has to heal it or there is no hope. Enough with free will and enough with Adam and Eve's sin. Enough is enough. The world can't go on forever with human sin diseases starvation pollution crimes accidents disasters etc. Im a physically ugly mentally ill guy with severe depression and loneliness. My family is dysfunctional with serious health problems. I lost my father to heart disease. I suffer from endless loneliness as I don't have a girlfriend and there is not an iota of a chance of getting one. Most pretty women are unfriendly unkind. There are thousands of other lonely guys in the US alone. This is the price a suffering humanity is paying for its free will and for Adam and Eves sin. Free will has ruined human nature and has ruined the creation. The destruction of the Twin Towers the Holocaust the Oklahoma bombing are all the sad end results of free will and Adam and Eves sin. Is it wise for God to allow this? No it is not. Is it moral for God to allow this? No it not. Free will has made most people bad and few people good. This experiment with free will and Adam and Eve was a grievous error disaster tragedy travesty. Meanwhile Nature's cruel laws inflicts suffering and death to both people and animals with diseases predation parasites intense heat intense cold mass starvation hurricanes tsunamis earthquakes birth defects etc. History and prehistory is a horror movie of violence killing death venoms parasites diseases human cruelty mass starvation genocides pollution loneliness alienation stupidity and this is a victory for the Devil and a victory for evil. If God is not to blame for evil and suffering then who is? If Satan and demons are to blame for evil and suffering then its immoral insane and unwise for God to allow these evil entities to cause all this cruelty and misery in the world. Maybe Satan and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for. Maybe God is not in control of what's going on in the world as Dualistic religions such as Gnosticism teach. Satan and demons are winning this war. God's deficiency is the Devil's opportunity. I suffer from nightmares nearly every time I sleep. I live in fear of going to hell. This world is a hellhole and a horror movie ruled by the Devil.


anonymous 3 years ago

This world is a hopeless quagmire of evil. Overpopulation traffic jams pollution homelessness mass starvation crime alienation and other ills continue with no end in sight. With the increase in human population more animals have to be slaughtered and more wildlife habitats are being destroyed and more animal and plant species are being driven to extinction. Meanwhile the trash and excrement piles to the sky and the air water and food is polluted and time is wasted sitting in traffic. Diseases continue to inflict suffering and death to both people and animals day after day year after year decade after decade and century after century. This earthly life is a hell and the next life will be a vastly worse hell lasting forever for billions of people. This is NOT the plan of a loving merciful wise God or creator. This is cruelty insanity incompetence negligence and mismanagement. God is mentally blind or morally blind and cannot see the cruelty the wrong the immorality the insanity and the destructiveness of what He is doing and in what He is allowing. It just doesn't seem to occur to this God that He ought to start intervening and start healing this cursed broken creation. I complain to Him and others have complained to Him but the message is just not sinking in. Its just not registering. Its a blind God who doesn't understand that He needs to start healing this broken creation. This screwed up creation isn't going to heal by itself. This God is just not right in the head. Allowing Satan and demons to tamper with and to corrupt the creation and to corrupt human beings is irresponsible. Thousands to millions of years of evil sin suffering death and extinctions is the sad history of planet earth. Satan the Devil rules this screwed up world and not a loving wise God.


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PlanksandNails 3 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ Author

Anonymous,

To live in a fallen world, it is obvious that much evil is commonplace. God does not intend for it to continue on forever. God will one day repair all of creation through Jesus Christ. He has promised to return and set things right.

The problem that most people have is that they do not want to acknowledge that evil came in as as result of choice. With that choice God permitted evil. The laws of God cannot be broken without circumstances. We may not fully understand why God allows evil in every circumstance, but we can have hope in Jesus Christ that one day He eradicate it. He is the only way to solving all the problems of the world. Without Him, there is no hope.


anonymous 3 years ago

Dear Planksandnails thank you for allowing me to write for your hub and thank you for being polite. I have been treated badly on other hubs and on other websites. You're one of the few polite respectable websites. This is an intelligent constructive website even if we don't agree on everything. I admire your strong Christian faith and reasoning ability. I think people don't become Christians or they lose their Christian faith for a number of reasons such as the conflict between science and the Bible and the violence in the Bible and the doctrine of hell and the division hatred and wars caused by religion and by greedy clergyman and preachers. Yes religion has a dark side but it also has a good side. Ive harped upon how cruel God is and how cruel Nature is but to be fair I sbould mention that God has created many good wonderful things in Nature such as songbirds dogs parakeets parrots sparrows pigeons ponies horses anoles geckos chameleons fruits and gorgeous spectacular landscapes such as the Hawaiian islands. Kauai's Napali coast and Kalalau Valley is one of the most majestic sights in tbe world. Im thankful for God for the good things in life. And as you said God has given us the greatest gift of all- His son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins. This earthly life is a mix of good and bad. The bad can ruin things. Maybe you are right and we have to trust God. Evil and suffering are unknowable mysteries. My fears and questions will remain and continue. My faith has weakened but its not dead. Im not giving Satan the victory. Maybe its not God we should be angry at but its Satan and demons who are to blame for having such a screwed up world full of rampant evil and suffering. Whether the Devil's name is Set or Angra-mainyu or Ahriman or Satan this evil being might be the true supernatural cause of all Natural evil and all human evil or sin. Im sorry if my previous comments about God offended you. I think we should all be directing our anger at Satan and demons. What can we do to help God in this war against Satan and his minions? Demons or fallen angels are numerous and there are demons who cause people to sin and there are demons who torment people mentally or physically and sometimes demons or evil spirits possess the minds and bodies of people. Books and movies about Satanism and demonic possession abound such as Rosemary's Baby The Exorcist Beyond the Door The Devil's Rain The Exorcism of Emily Rose Legion and Exorcist 3-Legion The Rite and the book Hostage to the Devil. Supernatural evil is the origin and cause of both Natural evil and human evil or sin and this supernatural cause of evil is Satan the Devil. I have also written a hub on Halloween. Halloween is sinister and the Druids with their wickerman sacrifices started this. Halloween is Satan's holiday. Horror movies horror novels horror masks and costumes and horror houses and horror hayrides are prominently displayed for Halloween. Halloween has pagan and Satanic origins. The Bible religion philosophy the supernatural and unexplained phenomena all fascinate me. As a child I collected and read the Arch Concordia Christian book series. It has illustrated stories about Bible themes. One of them is Jon and the Little Lost Lamb which is similar to the parable of the Good Shepherd. Thank you for allowing me to write.

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