The Pre-trib "Rapture", Myth or Fact?

A subject that has come up quite a few times recently in various articles, is the belief by certain Christians in 'The Pre-trib Rapture'. For those of you who have not heard of this belief before, as I understand it, this "Rapture" is a time in the future when Jesus will return to earth and all previously 'Saved' Christians (approx 5-10% of the population) will be taken up to Heaven in a new form, leaving behind all the unsaved ones to wonder where all the missing millions of people have vanished to. Okay, this is slightly oversimplifying the case, but there seem to be varying opinions on what happens to those who apparently remain 'unsaved' and are stuck here on earth, including suggestions of 7 years of Tribulation, the Antichrist, an option to have a second chance to accept Christ as the Saviour, etc.

Now this struck me a rather unfair on all those poor Souls who cannot possibly accept Jesus as their Saviour because they live in some obscure or Ancient long lost tribe and have never even heard of Jesus. It also seems rather harsh on the people who follow other religions such as Buddhism, Paganism, etc, and have shown love and respect throughout their lives for other people and God's creatures, yet they would be denied a place in Heaven simply because the God they chose to believe in was not Christ, or was not the Christ we see from today's interpretations of the Bible, (contrary to popular misconceptions, Pagans are not Atheists and do believe in a God or Goddess and frequently Christ too). I decided this was a subject worth following up on to see where this belief in 'The Rapture' started, and I am fascinated by what I have found.

I would also be interested to hear other comments from either Christians or non-Christians on this subject, as at this point I freely admit I am no expert on the subject, although I am curious as to how and why this belief has become so popular when it seems so cruel on the majority who have done nothing wrong except not be Evangelical Christians.

It also seems a large part of the beliefs in what will happen should the Pre-trib "Rapture" occur have been taken literally from the series of 'Left Behind' books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

Question : "My friends' church tells her Jesus will come again and all who believe in him will be raptured. The pastor teaches her that at this rapture people will be lifted up immediately into Heaven with Jesus at the second coming. If they are driving a car, or piloting a plane, or even having a baby, they will go, and the plane would crash, the car will keep on going without them, and the baby would go with them. Everyone left will have to suffer through a series of tribulations that are interpreted from the book of Revelations very literally and horribly. What does Jesus say about the rapture, and about the series of books titled Left Behind, by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins?"

Answer: I have no problem with people reading these books, as long as they consider them to be works of religious fiction. I do, however, have a problem with the fact that millions of people have read these books and have either taken them literally and believe they give a true account of what could happen or have become so confused by these books that they don’t know what to believe.

Let me make a very clear statement. The idea of the rapture, as described in the Left Behind books and described by certain fundamentalist churches especially in the United States, is completely fictional. It has absolutely no basis in reality.

It would be too mild to say that this idea was based on a misinterpretation of the Bible. In reality, this mindset is inspired, one might say engineered, by dark forces in a deliberate attempt, and I might say a desperate attempt, to keep the largest possible number of Christians in the fear-based mindset in which they have been trapped for almost 2,000 years.

The definition of the "Rapture" according to http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture3.htm

Conservative Theologians and Believers: Most Evangelical Christians believe that the Rapture, will happen sometime in the near future. All previously saved Christians, totaling perhaps 5 to 10% of the world's population, will suddenly have their bodies converted into a different form that they will wear for all eternity in Heaven. They will rise vertically into the air. Many believe that they will pass right through ceilings, roofs of cars, etc. to meet Jesus Christ in the sky. The vast majority of humans will be left behind. There will be extensive devastation on planes, trains and automobiles as their pilots, engineers and drivers suddenly disappear and the vehicles crash. The bodies of Christian believers who have died during the previous two millennia will be reconstituted into their original bodies which will then also be converted to spirit bodies. They will rise out of their graves and ascend to meet Jesus. Apparently the spirit bodies do not require oxygen to sustain themselves, because there is little air above 30,000 feet.

***

Liberal Theoligans however believe the Tribulation belief to be a fascinating myth or vision. The elements of the story:

Jesus descending in the sky.

Believers rising to meet him.

Parts of dead bodies, some individual organic molecules, somehow reconstituting themselves into their previous form.

Bodies being changed instantly from their physical form to some type of spiritual form.

are simply a beautiful fantasy without any grounding in reality

What Defines Being 'Saved'?

This is another quandary, as the Bible tends to be somewhat vague on this point.

Paul generally wrote that people are saved as a result of believing in the resurrection of Jesus.

The author(s) of the Gospel of John said that one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved.

Jesus, as reported in the synoptic Gospels, appears to have given two main paths to salvation:

One can be saved by performing good works, or

You can be saved by adopting a simple life of poverty and following Jesus' example.

Other passages say that a person is saved, and her/his sins forgiven, through baptism

And so we have a chaotic situation today where some denominations say that salvation is attained by:

Church rituals (particularly baptism and -- in the Catholic churches -- confession),

Good works,

Belief in:

Jesus' resurrection,

Jesus status as the only begotten Son of God,

Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior,

Or by some combination of the above.

One might argue that different faith groups are all equally correct. What they have done is to concentrate on some salvation passages in the Bible, interpreting them as true. Then they either ignore other passages, interpret them symbolically, or attributing unusual meanings to them. And so, diverse faith groups end up with entirely different criteria for salvation.

In addition, Christian faith groups differ on:

Whether a person, once saved, can lose their salvation, and

Whether a non-Christian can be saved.

Some of the other information I have come across also makes very interesting reading, and does cast a serious doubt on the Pre-trib "Rapture" belief system.

Apparently the Pharisees developed a program of teaching new converts to Phariseeism and wrote a five and one half million word document called the Babylonian Talmud upon which they based their religion.

What does all this have to do with a supposed “[pre-tribulation] Rapture?”

"The assumption that the Christian religion was a departure from the sect of the Pharisees is only partly true. The Christian religion did reject the Talmuds, but a more deadly plot was hatched against the followers of Jesus: infiltration by a Pharisee whose primary task was to destroy the followers of Jesus by torture and death.

But on his way to carry out his mission he had a new idea. His plot included injecting his own interpretations (a Pharisee trick) and replacing the teachings of Jesus and the apostles with rituals, practices, and traditions that were “less burdensome.” This, of course, is Saul Paulus, one of the most highly trained Pharisees of his day. A brilliant man who brought in deadly heresies that resulted in the creation of new religion that drew followers to him and away from Jesus and the apostles.

From overly zealous revival preachers in the 1800s, comes the idea of the “Rapture.” This idea was never a part of Christianity prior to that time.

The Hebrew Scriptures, the Book of Enoch, the book of Revelation, and Jesus’ prophecies and teachings only tell about the resurrection. These all refer to the people coming back to life in new mortal bodies or in immortal bodies."

The pre-trib "Rapture" concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth. However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29).

A forum I found that is also well worth reading can be found at: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message667250/pg1

This forum includes many posts regarding the validity of the "Rapture" claims, and one of the posts basically claims to 'End the Pre-trib Rapture Debate using Bible verses'.

Other Internet Forum Quotes:

:"It has always amazed me that 'The Rapture' has become such a mainstream component of western religion. I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has actually read the Bible could put so much weight in the idea."

***

"The Rapture Cult was started by failed Anglican Priest Nelson Darby in the mid-1800s. It was a get-out-of-tribulation-free cult. Soul candy. Tastes great but has no substance and is definitely not good for ya. Sorry kiddos but there is no 'get out of tribulations free' card. Jesus Prayed – ‘I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one’ – John 17:15 Those who ‘suffer with Him (for His sake) through the terrors of the last days will at that time ‘also be glorified with Him’ (Romans 8:17) the one ‘who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13; see also 10:22)"

***

"Well ... considering that there are 2 billion Christians on this planet and that only a relative handful actually believe in the rapture cult .. I have to disagree with the statement 'many .... agree upon the notion of a rapture'. Of the 2 billion christians on the planet, it's just a handful of fundamentalists - Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentacostals, etc. - that actually follow the rapture cult. That's a very small percentage of Christians. Most dismiss it"

***

"Don't dismiss Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30: and Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Notice the words AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Not Before."

***

There are plenty more equally interesting posts on the same site if anyone wants to take the time to go and have a look for themselves.


My Personal Conclusion

I have now read a vast amount on the topic of the Pre-trib Rapture, and I have to conclude that for me there is insufficient evidence to back it up as a likely future event. In fact there seems to be a large amount of very relevant evidence that seems to indicate it is purely an idea that has been adopted in recent times, and that if there is going to be a Rapture, it is not going to be a Pre-trib one.

My personal views are that a loving God and Christ would not leave those left behind to torture and torment either simply because they called God by another name, or had never heard or known of Jesus. Most logically there would be an opportunity for them to go to Heaven with the rest of the souls. As to what this opportunity would consist of is hard to judge, as it would seem a huge catching up exercise for anyone who had never heard of Jesus to suddenly have to learn all about him all at once and then make an instant decision on whether to follow him or not and discard their own beliefs.

I tend to feel that most Gods that are worshipped by other religions are simply other incarnations of Jesus, but in a form that each culture would find acceptable. Same Soul/Spirit, but different bodies and skin colours according to the part of the world where he was to be their Saviour. After all, it is hard to imagine trying to get a culture to believe that this man that had turned up with completely different coloured skin to themselves was their new Saviour, (as if the job wasn't already hard enough with the same coloured skin!!!).

I openly await your thoughts and opinions on this subject, and any further information you would like to add to it.

Thank you for reading.

Do You Believe in the Pre-trib

  • Yes, I am still completely convinced it will happen.
  • No, I believe that this is a recent idea.
  • I don't know, I will have to wait and see.
  • No, I just don't believe in it period.
  • Other, my comment is below.
See results without voting

If You Voted "Yes" to the above Question....

Did you read the links provided that suggest where the Pre-trib "Rapture" came from?

  • Yes, all of them.
  • Yes, some of them.
  • No, none of them.
See results without voting

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Comments 145 comments

t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

So you do agree with me then. Interesting, here I thought I was being picked on in that 'other' hub. Not that you are a christian, but nice to see someone other than me sees this as unhistorical and radical...even if you don't believe it ;)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Oh I have been told by VP to step down from the minsitry because I do not know the bible and its scriptures. I have also been told that he has the sole athority to know if I do the precepts of the bible in my misitry and go by a set of rules, which he has yet to offer what those are. He says that I should step down while I still can. What a crock! I told him about my hub What Is a Minister and all he can do is condecend me and not read it --of course he won't and he tells me that Jesus wrote the Bible. He's crazy!!


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi T'Keeley, (sorry, I can't help but put capital letters at the start of a name). I guess I am truly frustrated by this radical belief, especially after all the research I have carried out seems to pretty much categorically explain where this idea came from. I am also a little fed up of being categorised by a 'certain' person as an Atheist, when actually I do believe in Jesus and God as you have probably gathered by now. It has almost become kind of funny in an annoying way, as I have been branded as a 'Greek God worshipping, Jesus hating, Atheist, who condones and advises people where to buy cheap drugs and believes all of her dreams are prophetic in nature'. It wouldn't be so bad if these points weren't all untrue.

Thanks for your comment, you are always welcome here :)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

Wow Misty, nice! OK ... Let me address your first question, "What about people who have never heard."

Two scritpures address this: In Matthew 24:14 Jesus says: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

So, there won't be anybody who hasn't heard. (Which puts a lot of the pre-trib speculation completely out of scriptural truth.)

Second scritpure, Romans 2:14-15, says: "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)"

And finally, (OK this is three not two): John 9:40-41: 40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

Note that those who claim greater knowledge, are held to be more responsible. For the mereley ignorant, there is no sin in being ignorant. For those who claim knowledge, but are truly ignorant, that's a problem.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi LG, well even the Bible doesn't say Jesus wrote the Bible, so that is a little strange.

All you can do is follow your heart and what you are comfortable with. It seems clear to me you do know what you are talking about, and so long as you are comfortable with your beliefs and they feel right to you, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. I am quite surprised VP is not willing to read your Minister hub as I thought it was very good and explained things really clearly. It is only fair to come up with an opinion if in possession of all the available evidence.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Thanks Misty (there, a capital letter for you!). I know the feeling, especially since I not only claim Jesus as Lord and Saviour, I am even under the umbrella of greater evangelical christianity!!! It's absurd to be titled something short of heretic when I clearly have studied HISTORICAL Christianity!

Pre tribbers are a new breed, a breed that has developed in the last 150 years or less, a breed predominantly American...erhem....and predominantly baptist (that's right, it began after Dallas Theological Seminary broke away from the more..."secular" (yet supremely better) seminaries in America). In other words, the americans hated the european theology of the Bible so.....WE MADE OUR OWN!!!!!!!

Rock that one, Jesus. America apparently knows better than you do. So there.

[exit total extreme sarcastic narration of Dallas Theological]


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks BD, I actually enjoyed doing the research on this one as it was truly addictive reading. I totally loved the quotes you used in your comment, but your final statement was priceless.

Thank you so much for commenting here and for the amazing quotes. Do come back soon :)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

LOL, thanks for commenting back T.Keeley. Great comment and I am glad you understand how very frustrating it is to be branded as a virtual 'Heretic' simply because you don't totally agree with someone else's opinion on how Jesus should be worshipped and what his greater plan for us is.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Yes...and honestly, while the Bible may not be logical, the interpretations need to logically line up with it through and through or it loses total credibility whatsoever...and pre trib doctrine just doesn't, as BD showed us.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

That is a good summary of how I feel right now TK, (can I call you TK?).

Thanks.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

I started out "Pre-Trib" just because that's what everybody around me was. When I started hearing people say otherwise, I was going to "prove" I was right. So, I got to digging, got my bible out, got my pens and paper, and I was going to prove Pre-Trib once and for all...Well... I'm post-trib now.

I found this in Mark 13:24-27:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

I assume this is the same "Rapture" mentioned in 1 Thes 4:15-18... 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Because of these scriptures I believe in a literal post-tribulation rapture.

Isaiah 28:13 tells us how to interpret scripture: But the word of the Lord was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,"

In otherwords. Understand the easy stuff, then move on to the harder stuff. The stuff I quoted above is pretty simple. It does not make sense to mix in harder to understand scrpiture, which changes the obvious meaning. And the obvious meaning is post-trib.

A lot of people I love and respect disagree with me, though.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

TK is easy, "T" also works.

I always hold to the Bible because, while it's mere faith holding it together, it is the basis of my beliefs...and so I need a full understanding of the book in its entirety...and the God who it speaks of. Knowing God's covenants is far more important than some new aged interpretation based on science fiction classics of Verne. And believe me, I like Verne and find his sci-fi better than the Bible's. Mostly because the Bible just doesn't have it!


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

My respect for TK grows with his every post.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

LOL...I must be saying aomething worthhile that I am missing myslef ;)

It's easy to say things that I believe and yet so hard to practice. I may be the lasiest person when it comes to actually studying books, but I do my best.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks BD, those quotes and you analogy of them are also very impressive. At least you made the effort to do the research and then come up with an informed opinion, which is what everyone should do.

Hi again T, (that works for me), It may come as a surprise to many that I still have a Bible signed by everyone in a Christian Group I attended in my late teenage years. I also have a Mother of Pearl covered prayer book which I had blessed by our local Vicar when I was in my mid teens.

There is no doubt in my mind that God and Jesus are real, I just can't get my head around much of the crazy stuff that is spouted so much of the time.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

What, like Love you neightbor as yourself....waaaaaaaaiiiiittttt.....that require self sacrifice, so it's not really what Christ taught. I mean, after all, the guy didn't toss away His eternal glory, be born out of a bloody birth canal, live a horribly persecuted existence, then die a terrible death and have His own Father turn away from Him...and then rise to save my wretched being...he was far from selfless!!!!!

/once again, end extreme sarcasm/

Seriously, the story is amazing in and of itself, and whether other religions share it or not (like you mentioned in your previous hub) , it still fascinates me and I can't even explain it. Perhaps that's the magic of it all in the end.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Very true T. My gut instinct says they are all one and the same spirit, just in different Gods to make them more acceptable to the culture they appear in.

like I said at the end of the hub:

"I tend to feel that most Gods that are worshipped by other religions are simply other incarnations of Jesus, but in a form that each culture would find acceptable. Same Soul/Spirit, but different bodies and skin colours according to the part of the world where he was to be their Saviour. After all, it is hard to imagine trying to get a culture to believe that this man that had turned up with completely different coloured skin to themselves was their new Saviour, (as if the job wasn't already hard enough with the same coloured skin!!!)."


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Hm...never thought of it that way, will openly admit I'm still not sure I do at the moment. It may evolve over time but who knows. I do know all will be sorted out in the end, however without a rapture.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

I am aware of missionaries arriving at remote locations, where the people had never had previous contact with Christians who were told, "We've been waiting for you to come tell us about Jesus. He appeared to us and told us you were coming."

This is consistent with Acts 10 where Cornelius is informed by God to go find Peter to learn about Jesus.

He said, "Make diciples" (i.e. people who will learn, study, follow) not "converts" (i.e. names on a church role)

We know of the "Sheep not of this fold" (John 10:15). What of the interpretation of this scripture: 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


agvulpes profile image

agvulpes 8 years ago from Australia

Misty hi, nice to get tk's and BD's take on things in a friendly reasoned manner.

I personally subscribe to the theory that if you don't believe an act is a sin, then it isn't.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

LOL, yes, without a rapture T. :)

BD, nice comment I would like to know more about these remote locations where this happened as it would be very interesting reading and definitely food for thought. :)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi AG, good to see you here. Hmmm, interesting theory, but does that mean if you decide it is okay and acceptable to be cruel to animals/ commit an unprovoked murder etc then it is not a sin because you don't believe it is? I might have a little trouble getting my head around that one LOL !!


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

The specific story was told to me by a friend of mine named Jim who went to some islands near papua new guinea. He told me this story in 1985 or so. I haven't spoken to him since 1999.

My pastor told a similar story from the pulpit.


sandra rinck 8 years ago

as I was lead by BDazzler Romans 15:7 "Therefor accept one another as the Messiah has accepted you."

It also say to not critisize one another for their belief because God has accepted them on the basis of being firm in their belief, and it also says each is accountable to themselves before the Lord.

So do I believe in the rapture, no but...I do believe that there will be life again, somehow someway and time is pretty irrelevant since I would be dead, and so I could be dread for a trillion years, it wouldn't make a difference and I am not in any rush to get to Heaven or to die or to see Jesus (though I would like to see that happen with my own eyes cause I am pretty sure it would give me an incredible rush :) lol.

If they suggested that I/we would be "caught up" in Christ, as in everyone will know his message or will have heard of him. Yip I believe it.

Further, no one gets left behind, not just by the scripture that Bdaz (can I call you BDaz?) left for ya but because I have my own personal belief and as dorkey as it sounds,

I believe that (call it the sandy creed loll)

Find a reason to love them, any reason will do, if you don't believe in Christ, that's ok because I do. Because he loves me they wont be left because I love them, I know his promise is kept.

Be a good judge, yes the bible says do not judge, but be a good one. I judge always good because I find a reason to love them, when it comes to something that I am unsure, don't even say a word, keep it between you and the Big Guy cause if anyone is going to understand, God will.

When I feel uncertain about God, I pray it will be ok. When I say something I didn't mean, I ask the person I offened to forgive me, or say that I am sorry to them, not to God because God knows I care but that person may not.

When I see something hurt, just love it, don't preach to him/her, don't console with phony words, tell them you care and you love them and that you are sorry the pain is there.

I am accountable for everything that I do and when someone says that I have given up God or everlasting life or betrayed Jesus, I say well then I did out of love for you.

So I do not believe in the rapture, I do believe we all must die and while I am afraid of death just like anyone else, I don't believe it is a punishment, and if it were than everyone who dies has paid there dues but let people live and love them as they are for who they are not what they are not.

Lastly, do not make liars out of good people and never expect to be loved back but know that your love is good enough to sustain life and it is always pleasing to God to love without conditions. I know Jesus would agree lest I say because Jesus put his blessing on me. *wink, wink*.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

agv: You said, "I personally subscribe to the theory that if you don't believe an act is a sin, then it isn't."

I invite you to my hub: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Greate

About what I believe the Greatest Sin is ... I'd be interested in your comments.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

It is still really interesting BD, shame you are not still in touch with him so that you could do a hub on his experience.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

Misty: God has a way of bringing people back into my life ad the right time. Maybe he'll do that again.

Sandra . BDaz is fine! I would also be interested in what "Your God" says about the Greatest Sin post.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi Sandra (waves), thanks for commenting, always great to have you here. Impresive comment and wise words. Thank you again.

Gotta go to bed in a minute, it is 04.50 am here in Guernsey.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

So sorry to hear that BD. I lost my first Husband from Bowel Cancer and know how painful any kind of separation not from our own choice can be.


agvulpes profile image

agvulpes 8 years ago from Australia

Sandra I see a lot of wisdom in what you say, and I do not say that lightly.

Bd I will accept your invitation, thank you! I do presume you would expect an honest comment.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

Of course!


agvulpes profile image

agvulpes 8 years ago from Australia

Misty,

Hi AG, good to see you here. Hmmm, interesting theory, but does that mean if you decide it is okay and acceptable to be cruel to animals/ commit an unprovoked murder etc then it is not a sin because you don't believe it is? I might have a little trouble getting my head around that one LOL !!

That's the whole point Misty, the simple fact that you have to think about whether its a sin or not makes it a sin! You can't just decide after the act that it wasn't a sin! eg men fighting in war kill enemy , unprovoked murder/yes, sin /no.


tonymac04 profile image

tonymac04 8 years ago from South Africa

Thanks for a great Hub, Misty. I must say I can't get my head around all this speculation - I don't beleive in the Rapture, post- or pre-! That stuff about the return of Jesus was written when his followers were expecting him to return at that time. And the Book of Revelation was also written about that time. The so-called rapture has no real basis in the Bible. It is a totally human invention, and by people who were socially very conservative. Those who preach that evolution is wrong and that the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death and all that stuff.

Really - I can't believe that a loving God would condemn millions and millions of people to everlasting damnation because they have not heard about Jesus. And surely many millions of people lived before Jesus was born - so are they automatically damned? Sorry, can't believe that. We each of us make our heaven or hell on earth by the decisions we make moment by moment, and the consequences of those decisions.

Thnanks again for all the research you did. I'm going to visit some of those sites you found just for interest sake.

Love and peace

Tony


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi Ag, good to see you came back again. Yes I get your point better now. Thanks for clarifying it.

Hi Tony, Thanks so much for commenting here and for your comments. I hope you enjoy reading the links as much as you have done this hub.


mikeq107 8 years ago

Great Hub misty..I`m not going to comment as you have opened the panador`s box :):):):):):):)LOL...I`ll leave it up to TK, BD and Sandy....love you Guy`s have fun I,m going to sit this one out... LOL

Mike :0)


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mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Mike, still lovely to have you pop in and visit :) :)


Candace Morgan profile image

Candace Morgan 8 years ago from New York

Great research. Very interesting topic and Hub. Thanks.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Candace, I must say I find this particular topic quite fascinating as there are obviously strong feelings on both sides of the fence. I am glad you enjoyed it too :)


gwendymom profile image

gwendymom 8 years ago from Oklahoma

Misty, this is a very interesting hub. I usually shy away from religious and political hubs because these are the two subjects that people seem to fight the most over. I have a very weird religious upbringing that gave me a few views to ponder as a child (my mothers family was catholic my fathers family were baptists who then converted to seventh day adventists.) My grandparents made sure that I went to sabbath school as a child and I really hated it (because that was when cartoons were on) and at times when I lived with my mothers family I attended a catholic school. (See, told you it was weird.) As an adult I never went to church, but I always gave my children the option to go if they wanted to. My children attended the baptist church here where they really enjoyed going. My Husband had a brother that committed suicide a few years ago and the some of the people at that church told my children that their uncle had went to hell for committing suicide. My children have not been back to that church on their own choice. My son currently attends the first christian church here and enjoys it very much. I think that it is great that the youth have a place to go that is fun for them and provides activities to help them stay out of trouble. My stance on religion is this, I do not believe in religion, I do however believe in God. I am like Tonymac, and believe that we make our own heaven and hell by the things we do and the way we treat others. I hope that makes sense. It is just the way I choose to believe, mostly because I have had trouble understanding the very things that you bring up in this hub, like what if you have lived a good life and were kind to others but didn't go to church or mass or sabbath school, does that automatically mean that you cannot go to heaven? I just can't believe that God would be this way. Anyway, that is my view.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi Gwendy, so good to see you back hubbing again, we all missed you.

Thanks for a great and detailed comment that gives us all a glimpse into your life and your personal experiences. It is easy to see how you have come to the conclusions you have throughout your life. I am shocked your children were told their Uncle had gone to hell for committing suicide. What an irresponsible and cruel thing to tell children who could, if they believed it, suffer from nightmares for years afterwards. It is no doubt a good thing they chose not to return to that particular church.

Anyway, thank you again for your input and I will no doubt catch up with you on someone's hub later tonight. :)


gwendymom profile image

gwendymom 8 years ago from Oklahoma

Misty, I am glad to be back, I missed all of you guys too!

I was just as shocked to know that these adult christians would say something like they said to my young children too. Even if that is what they truly believe to be the truth, they should not have told that to my children, but as I said before I believe in heaven and hell as a thing that we do to ourselves. Meaning that when you cause others pain you will have to experience the pain that you have caused, this also works with the happiness that you bring to others, you will experience their happy feelings. So with that beliefe I know that they will feel the pain that they caused my children. Believing this way has made life a lot easier for me, I don't tend to worry about what pain others cause to me, as I believe that eventually they will have to feel it, I do however try not to harm others in anyway be it words or actions, because I do not want to have to feel the pain that I may have caused. I think it makes life easier to handle.


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mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi Gwendy, It sounds as if you think along much the same lines as I do, and what you are describing seems to large degree to be karma or "What goes around, comes around". :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Well I just spent 4+ nhours on a hub that would interenst and make some of you mad, but it needed to be done. It's http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Churchs-Techniques-In-...


Shadesbreath profile image

Shadesbreath 8 years ago from California

Gwendy, they told your kids that because they need fear to fill the pews. It's a much more efficient way of getting people to show up. If they want to keep people with love and kindness that requires a lot more effort and you have to keep it up. Fear carries its own weight for much longer.

And HI, you been gone for awhile, nice to have you back. :)

Misty nice hub as usual. Very interesting. I have to say, as I read the Biblical quotes, they just seem so absurd. "All the stars falling out of the sky" and stuff like that to me just prove that this stuff was written by men trying to lock down a moral fabric for a turbulent time using the tools of love and fear, and holding it together with the most creative stuff they could come up with at the time. God would have known how the universe worked and would have revealed His word accurately.

And you were talking about people around the world and other gods, what about all the people prior to the period encompassed by the Bible. Humans are around 50,000 years old in their present state. So only 2000 years worth of people get possible access to God? Or did the 48,000 years of people before then get a free pass for debauchery and stuff because God hadn't got around to them yet and still get in?

I could go on (and usually do, but, I won't. lol) WB Gwendy. I'm out.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 8 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

SB: "Or did the 48,000 years of people before then get a free pass for debauchery and stuff because God hadn't got around to them yet and still get in?"

Not that you believe the bible, but the question is addressed: 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient,

I believe the bottom line is that everybody gets a lot of chances to make their choices

I made a tin foil hat for you... you don't have to wear it if you don't want to ... but you can keep it! ;)


gwendymom profile image

gwendymom 8 years ago from Oklahoma

Shades, you are right, That is exactly what they were trying to do to my children, thankfully they are smart and know when the are being bamboozled.

Glad to be back :)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks LG, I shall go take a look.

Shades, great to see you here and thanks for the interesting comment. Pleased you enjoyed this hub's topic. I can't wait to see you in BD's tin foil hat :)

Hi Gwendy, lucky you have smart children, must have got it from their Mother !!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Hey Misty, I am going to put you link on my hub.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks LG, that would be great :) :) :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

You helped me out with my links, it is only right that I help you out too.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thank you, just heading over to your new hub to read it now :)


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 8 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

1. If there are several BILLION Christians in the world, why wouldn't they ALL be eligible to participate in the Rapture? 5-10% seems awfully exclusionary to me! Heaven is not a country club for goodness sake! Wouldn't logic tell you God wants as many followers as possible to join him in eternal salvation, not just the extra chosen-chosen few???

2. So let's say you are already dead when the Rapture occurs but you were cremated? Misty quotes above, "The bodies of Christian believers who have died during the previous two millennia will be reconstituted into their original bodies which will then also be converted to spirit bodies. They will rise out of their graves and ascend to meet Jesus." (I assume this part was commentary by you, Misty: Apparently the spirit bodies do not require oxygen to sustain themselves, because there is little air above 30,000 feet.)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Hey--I for one would love to be an ash-bodied person. You have super powers you'd never have had in normality. Give me an ashen composed body so I can slide thru cracks and fly with the wind!! Sort of like Sandman in Spiderman comics...lol...


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 8 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

TKeeley -- I like that visual. But you'd need to be SAVED Sandman, of course:-)!!


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi MM, thanks for commenting. The idea of Heaven being a country Club made me smile, now there's a thought, loads of souls all up there playing golf or propping up the bar in the 19th hole. Logic should tell us that God would want the majority with him, not just a handful of people out of the many he created, especially if they were esentially good people.

And of course if you had been cremated, and lets go so far as to say your ashes had been scattered, then being reconstituted would be kind of complicated (although I just know someone is going to say that it won't be because God can do this easily, which could, I suppose be fair comment). Also a but unlucky on those rich people who pay for their ashes to be fired into space on a small rocket. :)

The last statement you quoted me on was actually all a part of the original quote from my research, (much though I would like to say I came up with that statement about there being 'little air above 30,000 feet LOL).


pgrundy 8 years ago

Wow, Misty, this was very brave of you and you did a wonderful job on this--I learned a lot from reading your research on the Rapture. Thank you.

I don't believe in the Rapture at all of course, but even if it were true, I'd want to be left behind anyway. In Buddhism there is a tradition that the enlightened master (which would NOT be me, lol!) will often voluntarily stay behind to help ALL sentient beings be released from the suffering of this world.

Buddhists would see Jesus, Buddha, and other historical figures this way--as enlightened masters who stayed behind to help release others from suffering. The idea that anyone would want to be rescued and let others stay and suffer would be repellent in Buddhism because in the Buddhist worldview everything is connected. If any one person suffers, we all suffer.

I think some sects of Christianity have lost their way and now bear no resemblance whatsoever to the actual teachings of Christ. But then Jesus did say that would happen, so it should surprise no one.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Pam, I do feel a great affinity with what I know of Buddhism and their teachings as well as their respect and love for the planet and all the life that dwells on it. I think we could all learn a lot from the Buddhist religion. I also totally agree with your last statement about certain sects of Christianity, it is just a pity they cannot see that they have become what Christ warned they would. Thanks for commenting and enjoying the hub :)


Melissa G profile image

Melissa G 8 years ago from Tempe, AZ

Thanks Misty--just the other day, I was reading a comment where someone described herself as pre-trib and I was wondering what that was about. Now I know! I think you've presented some very good arguments for why the rapture isn't a likely event, and why a loving creator would not be so choosy about letting people continue along their soul's evolution.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Some sects of Christianity ae even pushing their congregation even further away. I noticed on one place that at first it was to God through Christ--whichn sounded Ok, but then this last month or two they have added Mary, Now it through Mary to Christ to God. Very sad when Chrsit and God and the Kingdom is within you not outside of you or even in another person that you have to go through.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Melissa, I am glad you now know a little bit more about what the 'Pre-trib Rapture' is, and have enough evidence to see it is most likely very much a recently conceived myth.

Hi LG, This is really strange, as Mary was never meant to be worshipped according to all I have read, and there is no mention of this in the Bible as far as I am aware.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Oh and that is where the brainwashing comes in as in my hub---they will fervently tell you that they do not worship Mary at all.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Presbyterians (my denomination) are descended from the time of John Calvin when he stood up to the RCC over issues like Mary and the sacraments. I would submit many traditional protestants are still pretty close to the teachings of men like Calvin, whom I've studied and much of what he says aligns with the Bible very, very closely.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Interesting, yet so many churches have Idols of Mary in them, plus the rosary is predominantly 'Hail Mary's' rather than the Lord's Prayer.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

yes and they have Icons---Images of the them, Jesus and Mary and whatnot. Oh they are not to have any other gods or images of them---but they do and they will tell you they don't. I think the reason why that is a commandment is because for some reason it must keep the spirit here and not released. It has to be somehting with Egyptian ideology because Moses got those same commandemnts from Egytpian lessons as he was being prepared to be a priest.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

It's called Iconoclasm. It's the use of images and icons in worship. No offense to catholics, but it's a pagan tradition of the goths blended with the "christian" teachings of the RCC.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks to both of you LG and T, I do find this very intriguing, especially the Moses and the commandments part, plus the fact the whole idea of worshipping icons was 'nicked' from Gothic Pagans


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Interesting TK. Again stealing from a prior culture or society and calling it their own.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Yep yep yep. Welcome to modern Christianity. Christmas isn't even celebrated in many presbyterian circles because, guess what it's borrowed from pagans! Same with Easter. In fact, Presbyterians generally don't celebrate any holiday that's religious. I do, but I don't consider them religious, just for good family time and gift giving.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Me too, I only enjoy them as the festivals they are for family, not for their religious implications. Frustrates the hell out of my Christian Husband when it comes to Christmas :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Yeah everyone wonders why I don't go to Catholic Mass the night before Christmas


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

LOL I AM NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I celebrate Christmas for gifts. It enver felt right to take ONE day a year to celebrate Christ and then spend 364 days to forget him....well that's what catholics do and it bothers me. My dad-in-law is a "hard core" catholic, which according to Jim Gaffigan is "I'll see ya at easter!"

Bothers me to no end. Christ is better than one day a year. Save that to celebrate the love, salvation, and family he gave to us by merely coming, but live all days of life to honour Him. That's how I work...


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Yes, every day is important, if we look after what he gave us, or loaned us (in the case of the earth and it's creature), we are doing right by him as he would want us to.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Exactly. These religious holidays are another way to flaunt an earthly agenda to the masses and "get the word of God out there". I'd rather plan for the heavenly kingdom that is said to await me. Heck, life here on earth is hell anyway. I can only work towards something better than the pothole I've been given here.


sandra rinck 8 years ago

Definitely not alone Tk, I celebrate because it's fun and it fills me up with happiness, well not so much around Christmas but I still feel the nastalgia of christmas growing up and being with family and giving and stuff.

One of my Jehovah friends said that those holidays are Pegan so they don't celebrate them, neither do some of my jewish friends, I didn't know about the Prebeterian but I would believe it. Though they don't really get on me about it or think I am some horrible human God hating being or anything, they just prefer to not celebrate.

Though I was studying with another Jehovah witness and things were good, the only thing I would not talk to her about was my spirit. Had to put a stop to it, then around Halloween (my favorite holiday) she said (though as nice as she really truly is, love her no matter what) that I was worshiping the Devil.

Then I should have bit my tounge but I didn't, because I then had to be like, yeah I also use the tarot...blah...but the look on her face, well I felt bad so I asked her not to study together anymore. Not because I was mad at her or anything like that, but because I could see it in her face and her vibes that she was "scared" or uncomfortable.

But I did read the blog from livelonger, omg! I was actually talking about things like this with my friend the other day about how long this has been going on, but this girl...

I think it is just like the bible and the quarn, they just don't see what they are doing. They are absolutely blind, could you hate a person for that, no I don't beleive so, but it does make me want to smack them accross the face to get them to wake up.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

LOL Sandra, loved your last comment "They are absolutely blind, could you hate a person for that, no I don't beleive so, but it does make me want to smack them across the face to get them to wake up."

You should have seen the faces of my late Husband's madly religious family when whilst he was dying from Bowel Cancer I sat down and watched 'John Edward' the Psychic Medium on Sky. They were convinced it was evil, in spite of the fact I pointed out the actual words of the Bible had been changed from ' Thou shalt not consort with evil spirits' to 'Thou shalt not consort with spirits'. I have to say a combination of this programme and my pets and family got me through this terrible time in my life, and I was left completely convinced my Husband was still around me, and I still am even since I remarried.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Yes! They are around you. The guy that lived across the street from us had mouth cancer and when he passd he was around me all the time. I had to eventually I had to tell him to go help his wife who was still alove and in pain from him leaving her. He did leave me alone after that.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

I totally agree LG, talk to them as if they are next to you, as they probably are!


sandra rinck 8 years ago

You bring up an interesting point Misty. When I was talking to my friend about the tarot, she said, of course, that I was consorting with evil spirits and it was Pagan etc...

Well I said, what makes you think I am asking anyone other than God for direction and understanding? She said that the tarot was a tool of satan etc. and that it was giving service, or something like that to satan.

So we went on for a little and I asked her, "how do you know you got the right God? You call God Jehovah, I call God, God. You pray and I pray to God but for me I don't worry about who it is going to because I only know one and so I know that it is going to exactly where it needs to go.

So, like you said: thou shall not consort with evil spirits. I believe that this evil spirit is in their heads because I am not sure how you could consort with an evil spirit because I must be blind. lol.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

If Satan asked God to forgive him....a questions I posed just a fe minutes on the Religion Forum, thn what happens to all the evil minions that was with Satan? Ususally as told in other sotries and such the minions have no will after their leader is taken out of the picture.......


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence in any writing to support a forgiven lucifer...I think the traditional story tells that Lucifer was created specifically for heaven, and when he rebelled against a God he knew more than we do, he lost his chance.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 8 years ago from West Virginia

Back to the Original Hub Topic. If there was/is a rapture and only certain people left this earth---wouldn't it make sense to have some peole still here? I mean God put us here to take care of the earth and all the things that he put on her.........why would he take every single person off of the earth and leave her alone and not be able to take care of her? He has to leave some here on earth. That was his main objective for us. See you can't always see the worst in others like that. Yes there may be some who go to God, and then with this scenario why would he take that many off the earth---for what purpose-------to repopulate some other planet????? Or even to make a new planet---we are not alone in the whole of the universe--lets think outside the box for a moment!


Make  Money profile image

Make Money 8 years ago from Ontario

Excellent Hub Misty.

This Hub should be sent to most of the TV evangelists.  I was watching Jack VanImpy one time and he referred to some Catholic theologian from 1,000 years ago or so to try to prove the pre-trib rapture.  Well if there was such a Catholic theologian 1,000 years ago that talked about a pre tribulation rapture then it was quickly dismissed.  If Catholic writings talk about a rapture then it is referring to a conscious state of prayer while living here on earth, not being lifted up before the tribulation.

Thanks

Mike


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mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Make Money, I am so glad you enjoyed it and agreed with my conclusions.


countrywomen profile image

countrywomen 8 years ago from Washington, USA

Cindy - I pray and hope who believe do get what they always aspired for. But feel bad when they look upto others with pity and disdain then that feels bad. As it is rightly said "My Father's House Are Many Mansions" God could have differest strokes for different folks. Great hub and lots of information. Good job.


Benson Yeung profile image

Benson Yeung 8 years ago from Hong Kong

great attempt to make theological discussion interesting and readable. thanks for sharing.


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mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thank you to both CW and Benson, I am glad you enjoyed the hub :)


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 8 years ago from America

why not just toss and change all that disputed unnecessary baggage about jesus and moses, to a love of the real God (AKA Mother Nature). pylos


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 8 years ago from America

sorry, double post.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

I like the sound of that idea as a Pagan myself Pylos. Thanks for commenting :)


lionswhelp 7 years ago

I do not believe in any rapture. There are some that do. SDA do along with Baptist. There is a fake rapture that the Illuminati will use to deceive unsuspecting Christians that think there is one. see www.cuttingedege.org/news/n2101.cfm .

The Bible speaks of a place of safety in the wilderness somewhere on earth not in heaven during the Great Tribulaton see Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 12:6 & 14, No whjere does it say there is a rapture, though some seem to misinterpret John 14:1-4 As in heaven but Revelations 5:10; 19 & 20 show Christ coming to rule on the earth for 1,000 years. Also Zechariah 14:1-9 shows the Saints ruling with Christ on the earth. There must be a hundred prophesies throughout the OT & NT That show God's intervention on the earth. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows the saints who are dead beng made alive and being caught up together with the remainng saints that are still alive in the first heaven which surrounds our earth. However, the other scriptures given show this will preceed Christ return to the earth. I hope this will help you.

The lionswhelp


lionswhelp profile image

lionswhelp 7 years ago

Opps it should be www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2101.cfm

The lionswhelp


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks for added information and detailed comment Lionswhelp. Always nice to have your input and thank you again for stopping in here to comment :)


her guy 7 years ago

This is going to pigeon-hole me but I'm one of those narrow-minded, Bible-banging, literal hangers-on to the Words of the Book. Ahh I hear the collective sighs from all the readers keeping up on this hub. I see the Book as easy to interpret if you let it interpret itself and use a good Greek and Hebrew Lexicon and a little common sense. I believe exactly what all of you find so hard to believe..that Jesus is the only way. He said "I am The way, The truth, and The life. No one gets to the Father but by me. Now that statement either makes Jesus out to be who He says He is or crazy or a fool. I tend to believe the former. There is so much evidence to support the Bible to be the inerrent Word of God. One proof that springs to mind is that while greatest minds in the whole world were teaching that the world was flat, or on the back of a turtle, or a plate held up on Atlas' back, the "archaic" Scripture says that the earth is a circle (globe or orb in Hebrew) Isaiah 40:22 and that that ball hangs on nothing (Job 26:7) Another example is what ancient man thought physical matter was made of. He surely didn't even comprehend what science today know is the physical nature of the universe. But that "antiquated" book says that things that we can see are made up of things we can't see. You ever wonder how they knew that we are made up of atoms and molecules unseen by the human eye? "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that things which are seen were not made of thing which are visible." 1 Cor. 11:3

Now I know most bangers are judgmental and irrational but I hope that getting to know me you all find out I am fun and reasonable and just a joy to talk to. Believe me when we all meet our Maker no one will be able to look at Him and say "Unfair you caught me when I wasn't looking!" It won't happen like that. You guys are the best 'specially you Misty. :)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Always open to every belief and opinion 'Her Guy', so you are welcome on any of my hubs. I do believe in Jesus personally, I just have my own doubts about the accuracy of much of the Bible, although no doubt some of it is true. It is good for everyone to voice their opinions and beliefs, and it is only by listening to each other that we can form our own beliefs.

Keep your comments coming 'Her Guy' and thanks for reading and commenting :)


her guy 7 years ago

I see evidence all around me in the natural, scientific and even on a higher spiritual plane. I believe that after a person really realizes that he or she needs God and cries out to Him, He answers them by making a spiritual connection to them. That cry is from the heart and no one knows the human heart but God. He truly knows and loves each one of us and will reach every soul with knowledge that He knows we will realize is pure truth. Problem is, He created each of us with volition to choose his or her own life and will not disrespect our right to choose. All He could do was die for us and offer that to pay for our sin. Now it's up to us to accept it or not. If He loves all of you so much how could I not love you all that much?


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thank you Her Guy, lovely words of wisdom well put and with warm sentiments.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Strange conversation, actually. After reading most of the recent postings, I'm still not certain where you, Mistyhorizon2003, really stand on the issue of the reality of any of what has been discussed. Are you a Christian?

Something you mentioned in your hub interested me. According to what I know about the Rapture teachings, much less than 5% of believers will find themselves caught up in it. More like .0009%. The Bible is clear: many called (most of Christianity); few chosen. There will be few Catholics, JWs, Mormons, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, or most of the more than 10,000 different Christian denominations and sects. Only a handful. Chosen before the foundation of the world. And only if they have accepted a very specific aspect of the Teachings. You can love and serve and do anything you think is Christian. But if you have not embraced that certain aspect, you are lost. So, what is that aspect?

Hmmmm.....


issues veritas 7 years ago

Misty,

People keep reading and quoting the scriptures as if it was divine. It was created by men, for men and it is interpreted by men. If the Old Testament was divine, then why the New Testament. So the people that follow the Old Testament are not worthy, while those that follow the New Testament are worthy.

The concept of the rapture is meaningless, it denotes the failure of God and the failure of humans. We didn't do well from the get go, what with conspiracy and treason and stealing intelligent fruit. Then we get a second chance, in hell we call Earth. So Cain kills Abel, that should have closed down the Earth, but it didn't. We get the hang of this killing stuff and by golly we are damn good at it.

So, Jesus comes down in the flesh, a total surprise because we thought the God was alone. Well actually, just him, the dEVIL and a rag tag group of Angel. Some Angels lost their way but that was OK, they were picked up by the dEVIL.

My point is that we humans, have not changed since the beginning and we are still the same in AD. What could possibly be the point of a rapture. The way that the Earth is, it might as well be Hell.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks so much for commenting Richard. Well I fall into the category of Pagan I guess, although I was brought up Christian (Church of England/Protestant) and attended Catholic Schools. I do believe that Jesus existed, it is much of the rest of the Bible I have many doubts about, plus the interpretations of it by the Church.

I do believe animals have souls, I don't believe in Hell, I definitely do not believe in any kind of "Rapture", (too many reasons to cover in this comment), I don't follow that a certain "Aspect" not embraced means we are lost, merely way lower down on the Spiritual "ladder", with many lifetimes of learning ahead of us before we can progress to higher planes, (I hope this makes sense as it can be hard to explain in words).


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks for commenting Issues. You make good points, and I am inclined to see some valid merit in the belief that here on Earth could well be "Hell" based on my own life experiences, and those of many others I have witnessed.


quietnessandtrust profile image

quietnessandtrust 7 years ago from Carbon Canyon, California

Great piece Mistyhorizon...I was asked to write on this "concoction theory" as well...I posted it just 2 days ago....tell me your thoughts on it...I come at it from a very different angle as you will see if you have the time.

Grace, mercy and shalom to you and yours,

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Rapture-Re


Suiiki profile image

Suiiki 7 years ago from City of the Newly Wed and Nearly Dead

I'm aware this hub is old, but, I have to make a comment. My wife and I often argue about whether or not there will be a pre-trib rapture. Being raised Catholic, I don't buy it...the Catholics also teach that non-Christians can be saved in some circumstances (moved people don't know that, but it's true!)

My wife however disagrees. She believes whole-heartedly that there WILL be a pre-trib rapture and won't hear anything against it, and also believes that non-Christians can't be saved unless they accept Christ later. She also conveniently forgets the line "Faith without works is dead" and tells me that if someone has accepted Christ, they can run around killing people and raping children and still go to heaven (Not without repenting and trying to do better they can't! But she ignores me when I argue that point...)

I think I will bring the topic of the rapture up again tonight and. now that I know the EXACT story behind the story, see if shee will finally understand why I don't believe it will happen.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks for commenting Suiiki, I hope your Wife does start to become more open to the possibility that the Pre-Trib Rapture is very unlikely. Good luck .


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 7 years ago from Roseville, CA

Wow, a lot of different views on salvation, works, rapture, the Bible, gods...

This is only my opinion in the little I know (the little we all know)...

What it means to be saved has nothing to do with works of the body. When Jesus quoted the commandment of "Thou shalt not commit adultery", He made it clear that a person can commit adultery in their heart, just by the thought of it. The Bible says, "People honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me". It's all about the heart. The works of faith are that of letting Him create a clean heart in us and doing what is opposite of our fleshly hearts, but to love even our enemies!

Regarding the rapture; I'm kind of looking at both sides, while the timing doesn't really matter. We know He promises to keep us safe from harm. There is absolute scripture about one being taken and one left behind. The second coming of Christ doesn't mean there won't be a third? I believe the second coming is the Rapture (coming as He left, which is in the clouds, but not on a horse with armies). When He returns on the white horse with armies, it is to fight the battle of Armageddon and rule on earth with the saints for the milenial reign.

It is prophesied that there will be two witnesses on the earth during the tribulation period. This could be two prophets or two "churches" (groups). They will be the representation of God on earth during this time. They will indeed be killed, yet resurrected and caught up for all to see; then the final plagues leading to the battle of Armageddon.

At the end of the milenial reign, there will be one last destruction of Satan and evil nations, as prophesied in Revelation. All flesh will be completely dead. This is when the second resurrection happens (the unbelieving) and Satan and all evil will be cast into the last or second death, the Lake of Fire.

The New Heaven and New Earth will be manefest then for all eternity.

Again, take it or leave it; but at least I could add a little something into the various views on these topics :-)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

All views are welcome here Judah's Daughter, so thank you for yours also :)


Pastor 7 years ago

I am a Born Again Christian, and a Pastor and I will be going home in the Rapture as my Bible says I will. If you do not believe you will be left behind...plain and simple fact.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Yawn, I doubt it very much somehow!!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

Wow Misty, I didn't realize people were still posting comments here.

The Bible has been changed many a time especially in the 6th and 15th centuries. If you read Revelations yourself and as a book with all your knowledge or common sense and with no one telling you what it says or meands you will come away from that with a different perspective. If you read the whole Bible by yourself you will come away from it with a different perspective because whomever put the verse numbers it it wanted us to see them as just that--lots of verses that are taught can be taken out of context. Now read the book without the verse numbers and as the stries that are in it, and you come away with a differnet perspective.

I did a report in an english class in High School and what I came away from that book of Revelations is that it already happened as in past tense and not future tense.

If some of us are left behind on this planet --that would be what the main purpose God had in mind for us anyway, so it can't be all bad. Those of us left behind would have a more healthy world to live on because we wouldn't have the need for money and giving it all to the church. I would rather give God's purpose for us to be stewards to his planet then go someplace for selfish reasons as it sounds like it is coming from those who are taking Pride in judging others and putting themsleves on those pedestals like they are.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi LG, so good to see you back again and thanks for popping in and posting here. Well, this hub doesn't get many comments nowadays, but it still gets daily traffic which is a good thing to get the message across of what a load of rubbish the whole Pre-trib Rapture idea is. What gets me are the people like the guy who commented just above you, who takes this all so seriously and clearly hasn't read the hub or the evidence that explained where this Pre-Trip Rapture idea originated. People like him are potentially very dangerous if you ask me.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

I have many that don't get comments but some traffic too.

Yeah most will not read the proof but will threaten others like this guy above me does. Jesus talked against pride and threats. Go figure!


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

I so agree on this LG, they can't explain why they believe with anything, so they make vague statements like "I will be going home in the Rapture as my Bible says I will.", So if his Bible said he was going to turn into a monkey and sing soprano would he believe that too?? LOL.


Sufidreamer profile image

Sufidreamer 7 years ago from Sparti, Greece

Great Hub, Misty - Glad to have found it. I have to agree with you that the whole thing really is a pile of cack. If pre-trib means spending eternity with a fool like 'Pastor,' left behind sounds much better :)


RICHARD SCHURZ 5 years ago

Dear brother in Jesus,

God says, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times. what is still to come!...What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned that will I do!"  Isaiah 46:10a, 11b  This Bible study compares all the Scripture on each End-time topic and exposes over 12 absolute contradictions of God’s Word by dangerous and deceptive pre-trib doctrines. The next Bible study shows the 7 Bible clues which positively reveals the identity of 666. Then there is a Bible study which shows how Obama may qualify to be the very deceptive False Prophet of 666. And finally there are interesting Bible-based speculations on how close the Last Days may be.

Would greatly appreciate any comments or Bible studies you may have on the Last Days.  

Your eternal friend in Jesus, 

Richard

WE ARE ALL EAGERLY WAITING FOR OUR GLORIOUS ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS!  

 

I Peter 1:13: “Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*. I Cor 1:7: “YOU do not lack any spiritual gift as YOU eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*.” Now the pre-tribbers claim that this glorious *REVEALING or *REVELATION* of Jesus will be *CONCEALED* BEFORE the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  However, every other time the Word *REVEALED* {Greek-Apocalipsis} is used related to resurrection events it refers to the glorious REVEALING of Jesus on the *LAST DAY* of the Great Tribulation {See 2 Thess 1:7-10 & Luke 17:26-31}. And *CONCEALED* is the exact opposite of *REVEALED* and *APPEARED* according to every dictionary!  Titus 2:13: “*WE* wait for the *BLESSED HOPE*—the glorious *APPEARING* of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  Hebrews 9:28 “Jesus will *APPEAR* a 2nd time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!”  Matthew 24:29,30: Jesus says, “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days {The Great Tribulation} the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will *APPEAR in the sky and the nations will *SEE* the Son of Man COMING on the clouds!!” I John 2:28: “Dear children, continue in Him, so that when He *APPEARS* WE may be confident and unashamed before Him at His COMING!” {See 2 Thess 1:7-10; I Tim 6:14; Heb 9:28 & Col 3:4}  2 Tim 4:8: Paul said, There is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on THAT DAY—and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for His *APPEARING*!!” A meeting at an appointed place and time is called a RENDEZVOUS. We have a RENDEZVOUS with eternity at the glorious *APPEARING and *REVEALING of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ *IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.

God has always allowed His people to suffer tribulation and trials because they purify and perfect their faith and will gain countless eternal rewards when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED. There are over 40,000 saints martyred every year and the main culprit is no longer just Islam and the RC Church. The Main culprits now are the 21 Muslim countries and Korea, China, Sudan, Venezuela, Nigeria and the RC Church. Millions of saints were martyred after 1917 in Russia and after 1948 in China. Romans 8:35-37: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?... For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!” I Peter 1:6-8:  “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED.”  I Peter 2:20b,21: “But if you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow IN HIS STEPS.” I Peter 4:12,13: “Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But REJOICE that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is *REVEALED!” Read other persecution verses: Romans 5:3; Heb 13:35-40; 2 Tim 3:12; 2 Cor 1:7-10; I Thess 3:3,4; Phil 1:29; Phil 3:10; Rev 12:11; Rev 13:9,10 & Rev 14:13.

       The courageous and faithful Tribulation saints will *NOT* be hurt by God’s *WRATH* as shown in Rev 14:9-11; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; or in any of the 7 trumpet or 7 bowl plagues as explained in Rev 9:4,20,21 and Rev 16:2,4-6,9,10,21; or in any of the plagues of God’s 2 witnesses as per Rev 11:6,10; or in *ETERNAL HELL*: Rev 14:9-11: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of *HIS WRATH*.  He will be tormented with burning sulfur and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.” The pre-tribs often confuse the wrath of God with the persecution from the antichrist. They are not the same thing. The wrath of God is intended for the ungodly and will be poured upon them and them only. The Lord knows His target and He never misses. Jesus warned in Matthew 10:28, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

In Rev 18:1-24 we read about the plagues that will destroy the headquarters of 666 during the Great Triubulation. This evil city on 7 hills {See Rev 17:9} is called “Babylon” which Peter implied was the nicknmame for Rome in 2 Peter 5:13. In Rev 18:4 a voice from Heaven will order God's saints to stay away from Babylon {Rome-That great seaport-Rev 18:17-19} so that they will not participate in her sins or be hurt by God's wrath which will completely destroy Rome with many horrific plagues. There are 260 verses from Revelation chapters 6 thru 20 and 128 of these verses or 49% tell of the wrath of God to unbelievers, 666, his False Prophet and Rome. However, not even one of these verses tells of any wrath of God toward His courageous Tribulation saints.

      However, in Matthew 24:3,9-13:  The disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of your Coming and the end of the age?? Jesus answered….. {During the Great Tribulation} “Then *YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and *YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me.  At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of *MOST* will grow cold,{THE GREAT APOSTASY} but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful-Rev 17:14b} who stands firm to the End will be saved.” 2 Thess 2:1,3: “Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus and *OUR being gathered to Him...That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first!!” {NIV – Rebellion} It is estimated that there are about 800 million people who claim to be Christians out of the 7 billion people on earth. There are probably about 134 million saved evangelicals which leaves about 666 million who will fall away and follow 666. There will probably be about 6 billion 666 million people who will follow 666 so they can buy and sell everything; which leaves about 200 million that may be saved from every nation tribe and language as per Rev 7:9-14. Matt 7:13,14: Many follow the road to destruction and only a few find the road to life. These numbers are, of coarse, just a speculation. Read Revelation 12:11 & 13:10!!

The pre-tribbers claim that the "YOU" in Matthew 24:9 above are Jews only and that much of Matthew was only written for Jews like Matthew chapters 5-7. Which is of course completely ridiculous since Jesus said to His 11 Apostles in Matthew 28:19,20 “Go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*…teaching them to obey *EVERYTHING* I commanded you!”  {Read John 12:48 & John 14:23}  I John 2:3,4,6:  “We know that we


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks for this input Richard, all feedback helps by increasing the available knowledge to those who only know some of the Bible texts, or even only partial quotes from them.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Oh I have to link this hub to a few of mine. I keep forgetting until I see a new post.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks LG, that would be great :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

This is one of the hubs I put your link in: http://hubpages.com/hub/Preparation-For-The-End-Of...


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks LG, I hope this is of use to you in your hubs :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

I hope that you get more views and comments from them.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi LG, I checked your hubs out and found the link to this one in the 2nd two you listed (thanks for that), couldn't find it in the 1st one though, never mind, maybe the addition didn't change when you saved for some reason!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

I will fix that right now. Thanks for letting me know.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

I fixed that, added some more links and spruced it up a bit.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Cheers LG :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Happy New Year Lady!!!


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Happy New Year to you too LG :)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Okay Revelations already happened and there is proof on this site: http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ff_vesu.htm


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Interesting link LG, I read it all and knew the history of the eruption from various documentaries. I would never have put the Rapture or Revelations and the Vesuvius eruption together though, and still not too sure if I am honest as it seems a bit of a 'stretch' because the Vesuvius eruption only affected a tiny part of the world as opposed to the whole world that I would expect to be affected if the Rapture or Revelations were real events.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Remeber too that John, or whoever wrote Revelations, didn't know about the western world, neither Australia or China or India--only his part of the world. It is said the this John watched the mountain explode and it is said that the ashes reached down into Africa. That moutain has exploded many times. Just thoughts and evidence.

They are also stating that all the planets will line up and we will go into a deep freeze. What they don't figure is that only two planets are between us and the sun and then out moon. That would only mean an eclipse for about an hour or two. That will not kill us.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

That is actually a very good point LG, and one that needed pointing out, (certainly to me for sure). Thanks


Ms Dee profile image

Ms Dee 5 years ago from Texas, USA

Thanks for your hub on this very important question. I find I understand the Bible to be saying what BDazzler has explained so well. This is a very intresting discussion you have going :)


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Ms Dee. BDazzler is a very intelligent and fascinating hubber to interact with. I have much time for him. Glad you enjoyed this Hub :)


Trigger2011 5 years ago

This was very interesting misty, as i think the rapture is just a gimmick to get people to join certain churches, like 1 i know that has only been around for probably less then 200 years where people keep preaching saying you need to get saved join our church the rapture is coming.... now its postponed because it never happened there last month or whenever it was all over tv wow (surprised) lol...


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Pleased you enjoyed this hub Trigger2011. You could well be right about the whole 'Gimmick' thing too. I always find it amusing when these 'end of the world is on such and such a date' statements are declared, because I am always certain it won't happen, and I am equally curious to see how the people who made the statements are going to explain the fact that the world is still here, and the same, once the date has been and gone uneventfully.


MizBejabbers profile image

MizBejabbers 5 years ago

Just found this hub, and I like it. I grew up a Southern Baptist, but I got over it! My childhood church did't teach rapture theories at all, so imagine my surprise when, as a young adult, I was confronted by them. When I rejected man's conflicting teachings, I was able to accept the spiritual. I'm not rejecting the Bible, but I'm saying that one needs to go outside the Bible to understand the Bible. I find that the most backward and argumentive Christians who say that they "believe every word in the Bible is the inspired word of God" do not believe the passage that says that "all will be revealed in the end times." Ironic, isn't it?


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Hi MizBejabbers, thanks for your feedback. Very good points made all round and I like your point that one needs to go out the Bible to understand the Bible, as well as your quote regarding 'all will be revealed in the end times'. Thanks again.


Donwave 4 years ago from US

Was surfing just now and found your intriguing site. Have known of some web articles re the rapture including "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret" (the US-merchandised "rapture" was first taught by a young woman in Scotland in 1830!), "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "The Unoriginal John Darby," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," "Scholars Weigh My Research," "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," "Pretrib Rapture Politics" (excellent!), and (utterly shocking) "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." The British were the original exporters of this novel view. But the British have largely abandoned it and nowadays it is promoted mainly by American evangelicals. At the same time many here in the US have had their eyes opened by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused for more than 40 years on locating hard-to-find early "rapture" documents that he has located while researching in Scotland, England etc. He has written many web articles (including those above) and several books including "The Rapture Plot" (available online) - the most detailed, documented, and accurate history of the same endtime view which, as he has stated on talk shows, was never a part of any organized church or official theology before 1830! He has made, as would be expected, enemies among the rapture moneychangers, some of whom delight in quietly deleting or muddying up accurate facts about the rapture that he and other scholars have contributed to Wikipedia etc. MacPherson has shown that Rev. Edward Irving and his followers (Irvingites), after being inspired by the young Scottish lassie, were the first to publicly teach the new escapist view and that John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren actually plagiarized those preceding him (!) and that he never should have been called the "father" of dispensationalism! MacPherson reports he is unable to get back to Britain and wishes that someone over there could pick up where he has left off. He says that anyone could write a bestselling book (because of worldwide interest in prophecy) and suggests that the starting point for anyone interested would be the examination of the "Clement Boase" collection of Irvingite material in the British Library - shelfmark 764.n.14.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 4 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks Donwave, what a load of really interesting extra information. I am sure it will add a great deal of value to this article.


Ron 4 years ago

Hi again Misty.

I think that if several million people suddenly dissappeared, that aliens had finally perfected their abduction technique, and would be feeding their far off planet for many years to come.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 4 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

LOL, a very good example of why the concept is so ridiculous Ron :)


Michael 4 years ago

I used to be post trib without really searching the scriptures but after monthes of studying the bible i can now see that it is a deception.The bible clearly supports a pre trib rapture I challenge anyone to seek this truth out for themselves.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 4 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Feel free to back this up with quotes that others can respond to Michael.


Hxprof 7 months ago from Clearwater, Florida

You put a great deal of work into this, and for the record I agree with you - there's no pre-trib rapture. There is a "rapture" or a "catching up" at the end of the Great Tribulation. Part of the purpose in the Great Tribulation is to bring as much of the world as possible to Christ for salvation.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 months ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands) Author

Thanks for your feedback Hxprof. I don"t have the exact same opinions as you, but each of us is unique and I do appreciate your feedback and thoughts on the subject :)

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