The Real Reason God Made Adam And Eve Leave The Garden Of Eden.

Many of us have read Genesis and the story of the creation of Adam and Eve, and the Garden of Eden. Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said " Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the sky and over the cattle, and over the earth, and everything that creeps over everything on the earth. God created man in His own image, in the image of God, He created them, male and female.

We know what comes next, Adam and Eve both eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The tree which gave them the knowledge to know the difference between good and evil. Is that the reason that God made Adam and Eve leave the Garden of Eden? Many people say " Yes" However, according to Genesis 3:22-24 The the Lord said " Behold the man has become LIKE one of us. Knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the Tree of Life and live forever. Therefore, the Lord God sent him out from the Garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the Cherubim and the Flaming Sword, the way to guard the Tree of Life.

Now, in Genesis 2:9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food, the tree of Life, and the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Both of these trees were in the Garden of Eden. The only one Adam and Eve were not allowed to eat was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they had not been told not to eat from the Tree that would make them live forever.

What is interesting however, is that God created man "In our image" Image in the dictionary can be defined as one that closely resembles another object. Or an optically duplicate counterpart, especially an optical reproduction formed by a mirror. God also said " Man has become like one of us" In the dictionary one of the meanings of the word "Like" is equivalent or equal. But, ( us) also means ( more then one) perhaps God was talking to the Angels

When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, was that the reason they were taken out of the Garden of Eden? While reading Genesis, it seems as though the true reason Adam and Eve they were taken out of the Garden was because they had " Become LIKE one of us". God had to prevent, them from eating anything from the Tree of Life. God even stationed guards to the entrances to the Garden of Eden. The Cherubim and The Flaming Sword. The Cherub is a winged angel in the second order of angels and the Flaming Sword means To Guard. So, the Garden of Eden was guarded extremely well. Nobody could ever get close to the Tree of Life.

So, at first God Created Adam and Eve "In Our image", but after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge God said " Man has become like one of us". Is that the real reason God made Adam and Eve leave the Garden of Eden?

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Comments 144 comments

unknown spy profile image

unknown spy 4 years ago from Neverland - where children never grow up.

" Man has become like one of us".

May I asked what do you mean by "one of us?" Just to clarufy things..still confused. i read a lot of things in Bible but this one always made me wonder why did God made adam and eve leave the garden.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

If you look at the story literally, it makes no sense. God desires man to be created in His image, so when man becomes like him (which sounds like what He intended) He throws them out.

I have two views and have not decided which to go with.

Either Adam and Eve were created like children mentally, and whilst they were growing up, God provided a garden for them to take care of all their needs. At some point, first Eve, then Adam, begin to understand the difference between right and wrong, as children do about the age of 10, here symboliised by eating of the tree of good and evil. They learn to think for themselves. Now it's time to leave the family home and make a life for themselves, so God kicks them out, like we might to a child who is in their 20s and still living at home. If they had never been forced out to look after themselves, they would have been come lazy, indolent, never reached their potential or started civilisation. Remember at the Tower of Babel, God wanted man to spread across the Earth, staying in the garden would not have achieved this.

Or, this is a folklore tale remembered by an agricultural society where man had become slaves to toil the Earth, and is longing for the time where he once lived a carefree hunter gatherer way of life. It's is understood b archeologists, that when man became agricultural, his health declined, and the land was ruined.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

unknown spy that is a question I am going to ask in my next hub. Maybe someone can help us learn more about it, but maybe not.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Disappearinghead, thank you for your comment. Both are interesting.


liftandsoar profile image

liftandsoar 4 years ago from Richmond, VA

Thanks Michele, Good insights. There was a whole lot more at stake than that Adam and Eve had to be punished for their sin. The scenario at the garden is a literal event with two flesh and blood and mind and soul people positioned to choose between being loyal to their creator and strking out on their own. Had they given the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil a wide birth and instead, feasted on the Tree of Life human history would have been very different. Since they chose the former they forfeited the privilege of living in close communion with the creator and the joys of living free of curruption. Interesting that the tree of life doesn't show up again until Revelation when it figures in the description of heaven. It was an act of tough love for God to expel A and E from the garden. Can you imagine living in a sin corrupted world for all eternity?

Now to Unknown Spy's comment. God indeed created us in his own image in the sense that we possess abilities and sensitivities that are not shared by other animals. We can think about ourselves as though we were outside ourselves and think about eternity and moral right and wrong. It's God's image that gives us the ability to love and worship him or to choose not to. But when God said that man had become "like us" after the fall, he was referring to their choice to be independent and sovereign. Only God is that.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

liftandsoar thank you so much for your comment. It is a very good one, and makes a lot of sense to me. And you are also correct about the tree of life showing up again in Revelation.


teaches12345 profile image

teaches12345 4 years ago

God's statement that "they have become like us" means that we too now know good and evil. Not that God is evil, but to have the knowledge of it -- makes a big difference in living in this world. For our sakes, and because of the downfall created by man, he had to amend and adjust man's journey. Once again, an interesting read, Michele!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you teaches. Yes we do know the difference between good and evil, but do not follow good. That is the sad part.


Paladin_ profile image

Paladin_ 4 years ago from Michigan, USA

Michele, even though I'm a non-believer, I voted this hub up because I find your take on the topic fascinating.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Paladin. You are very kind.


Robert Hagedorn 4 years ago

Adam and Eve? Google First Scandal.


BlossomSB profile image

BlossomSB 4 years ago from Victoria, Australia

A very interesting hub and readers' comments are interesting, too. I'll look forward to reading your next hub. Voted up.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for telling me that. I will google that.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Blossem, right now I am just working on the Pagan to Christian hub..feel like I don,t know what do say on it any more lol


Felina Margetty profile image

Felina Margetty 4 years ago from New York, New York

Nice thought, nice sentiment, thanks for sharing. F.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Felina Margetty thank you for your comment.


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

Michele great to see once again how your hubs create a dialogue. Every writer's secret dream I think is to inspire or entertain or just make people go hmm. You accomplished that here as usual. Keep em coming --I believe I am going to paste this on my Facebook time-line if you do not mind as an example of some interesting hubs available through our hub community--if you would rather I would not please let me know. Your pictures were great as well.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

No, I don't mind at all. In fact I appreciate it!


jeanine 4 years ago

Interesting... he is a very jealous God, so when Adam was no longer in communion with God, He has no place in the perfect garden of God... His Holiness would have destroyed them, because "sin" wow such an old word... can not exist next to Holiness... so it was out of Love that He made them leave... for if they were walking with God and did have thoughts of unrighteousness, then the perfect power of God would have destroyed them both... never meaning to... it's the part that we don't discuss much in Churches because we are so full of ourselves... It was His love that saved us... in the Garden and then when Christ came... he did it again... My love and your whispers our names yet again today... lol... enjoyed the read...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Jeanine thank you for your comment. I appreciate it very much!


Drtruthman profile image

Drtruthman 4 years ago from Harlingen, Texas

Oh this is so good and will be answered on that other sight of mine you know about, but not sure when; I am so far behind. This is so rich and you have got it RIGHT. Absolutely correct you are but the big question is WHY was God so concerned about us becoming like Him? After all, that is part of why Jesus came so we could be more like Him. Great Hub. Enjoyed much. I voted UP all across. Lee


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you so much for commenting. You know a lot more then I do. And thank you again for putting it on your other site!!


Larry Wall 4 years ago

It is hard to place literal translations to the Bible. In today's English language, like would be defined as similar, i.e. "the car moved like a tornado." If the word "as" it would not mean that people were to be gods, just that they should act in a godly manner.

There are two creation stories in Genesis. The second story says that God created man, not a man or the man, but man as in Mankind. The same goes for the creation of Woman, the a woman or the woman, but woman kind.

That raises a whole new area of discussion, i.e, where there more than two people in the beginning. It might also explain why there were people in other parts of the world of different colors and different physical characteristics.

Finally, we do not know what Paradise was. We have no concept, no description. We do not know if man existed as he does today in paradise, or if when Adam and Eve were evicted, the evolution of the world reversed itself and man had to startover from our prehistoric ancestors.

Acceptance of God is a matter of faith. Christians, sometimes spend too much time trying to understand things we will never fully understand, until we come face to face with God.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@Larry Wall you are correct in everything you wrote. I have heard that in the question of " who would Cain marry" things like that. And you are also correct in all of the areas of discussion you commented on, and many more. But, in your last comment "Acceptance of God is a matter of faith" is a very good comment. I keep asking questions. For me, that is a very good comment. I won't forget it. Of course I will still write hubs that ask questions, but, I know God created us, and Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead. Those are important. And for that I love God.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

It never hurts to ask questions. We all have to understand that as humans we will not find all the answers in this life. Thus if we believe our solution is acceptance of God's love and that all our questions will be answered at the proper time. Have a joyous Easter.

Larry


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Larry, you have a joyous Easter also.

Michele


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 4 years ago from West Allis

Without being cast out of the garden and the curse of death being placed upon them, like Satan, they could continue to exist in disobedience. The only way to redeem us was to kick us out and allow the "two seeds" in Chavvah (Eve) to grow and show themselves by their fruits - like Christ said, you can't tear out the tares or weeds without destroying some of the wheat - the innocent. I have a hub on superfecundation written somewhere on these pages that explains the concept in more detail. Peace


Vegas Elias profile image

Vegas Elias 4 years ago from Mumbai

Very interesting topic to write about. In the first place the creation story of Genesis is only an assumption because the story contradicts itself; because if Adam and Eve were the first humans to be created there was definitely no other person to witness the creation. Secondly the 'Adam' in Genesis does not refer to one single human being but to the human race as a whole. The story of being thrown out of the garden is the result of the guilty conscience of man which is trying to find an answer for the perennial suffering man undergoes throughout his life. Blaming it on the original sin of Adam gives solace to man. I vote you up for the thought provoking article.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ A M Werner That is true, you write hubs that have amazing information in them. You have read and understood the bible. More people should read your hubs. I am going to do that also, I do need to learn more. Thank you, I am going to look for that hub.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vegas Elias thank you for your comment. Actually the story does not contradict itself. There are two stories of creation. The first humans were probably the ones who lived over 100,000 years ago. Now remember the when Cain killed his brother, and after leaving married another woman? Who could he have met if there were no other people? So, there must have been people who were created outside of the garden before Adam. That is why we still have not found the "missing link" Also, God told Adam to become the first one to "till the ground" That started about, maybe 7000 years ago. Of course humans lived before then. As for blaming Adam for the 'Original sin' you have a good point there.


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

I love seeing all the comments you know I am the dialogue-Queen. Michele it is also cool to see your number climbing U go girl keep them coming and Happy Easter to you and yours as well...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Laura you are the dialogue Queen! Thank you so much! You are the best!!!!!!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Before answering that question, we should know first which tree Adam and Eve couldn't eat from.When we read the first chapters of Genesis, we discover that there are two trees placed in the midst of the garden of Eden:

Genesis chapter 2:

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So note there are in fact 2 trees, the tree of life AND the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they were the same tree there would be no reason to say AND, this is separating both trees as two distinct separate trees. Also if it was the same tree, it would have said something like this:

tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and which is also the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That’s how it would have been said if it was indeed the same tree. But it simply says the tree of life AND the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hence they are two different trees we have here.

We read from Genesis that God prohibited Adam from eating from one of the trees:

Genesis

Chapter 2

KJV

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So God forbids Adam from eating from the tree of good and evil. Eventually both him and Eve break this command:

Genesis

Chapter 3

KJV

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So they both eventually ate from the tree of good and evil.

Later on in the chapter we read:

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So we now see what the tree of life is. The tree of life is a tree that if you eat from it, you will live forever! Can you believe that? What makes this more interesting is that Adam was free to eat from it! Remember earlier in Genesis we read:

Genesis

Chapter 2

KJV

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So note EVERY SINGLE TREE except the tree of good and evil is lawful to eat from, therefore this means Adam was allowed to go and eat from a tree that would have caused him to live forever! We only have to guess at what would have happened if Adam ate from that tree. We must always ask why would God allow Adam to eat from such a tree?

The problems don’t end there, because notice at the ending of Genesis 3:

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Notice the major problem. God now realizes the tree of life is something dangerous for Adam to eat from, and God realizes it is a huge risk to allow Adam to eat from the tree, so he goes to such lengths as placing a flaming sword to guard the tree of life to make sure that no one eats from the tree of life!

So note, it took a sin from Adam to make God realize this major problem! If Adam had not committed the sin of eating from the tree of good and evil, God would have never guarded the tree of life from Adam and other people, so it had to take a sin from Adam to make God realize of what a major mistake and problem he had by placing such a tree for Adam to be allowed to eat from!

So this question arises, why did not God know the problems of placing such a tree in the midst of Eden, and allowing Adam to eat from it? Why did God not prohibit both the tree of life and the tree of good and evil? Why did it take a sin from Adam to realize the problem of having such a tree in the midst of Eden and free to eat from? Didn’t God already know? It seems he did not, and he needed Adam to sin for him to realize the risk of placing a tree of life free to eat from!

Now in case people are getting confused and saying God prohibited Adam and Eve from eating from the tree! I am NOT TALKING about the tree that was prohibited, because remember, there are TWO trees, the tree of good and evil, which God prohibited to Adam and Eve, and the tree of life which God did not prohibit to Adam nor Eve.

Two trees:

1- The tree of good and evil, which was forbidden to eat from. The tree which both Eve and Adam ate from leading to their downfall.

2- the tree of life which was NOT forbidden to eat from, and if you did eat from it you would live forever!

So God had to have a sin make him realize the problem of putting a tree of life in the garden of Eden free to eat from, and we ask why? Isn’t God all knowing? Why didn’t God protect the tree of life with a flaming sword from the beginning before Adam and Eve sinned? Secondly, why would God place such a tree in Eden? Why would God place a tree that if you ate from it, would make you live forever, and you were allowed to eat from it!

So a lot of problems here. This all proves there are problems with the story of Genesis, and that the God of the Bible is not all-knowing.

So we must ask, which tree couldn’t Adam and Eve eat from? Because both trees should have been banned from consumption! Not just the tree of good and evil.


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 4 years ago from West Allis

revengadown, you are missing the point. With everything provided and perfect, the Creator asked His creation to avoid one thing, leaving one thing alone, and the creature could not. The flaw is not only the disobedience then, it was in not admitting the truth and taking responsibility for doing wrong. Adam blamed his wife and his wife blamed the serpent - and the serpent - well, the Lord didn't even let him speak because He already knew what He was dealing with there - a known liar. The truth in Christ is not in that we do wrong, or sin. It is in our ability to humble ourselves when we have done wrong and accept responsibility for it. If we believe we know as much as He does about what is right and wrong, good and evil, then humility to Him seems no longer necessary. Mankind still wants cures, medicines and a method to avoid death because ultimately all have to stand before the great throne judgment. And at the judgment, all the knowledge of good and evil will do us no good. Only our humility in life. Like the young man who would not so much as lift his head to face heaven, but said "Lord, forgive me, a sinner." Humility is a lot harder with knowledge then it is without. Peace


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

A M Werner You are correct. So many of us would never admit we were wrong. We will not admit defeat. Being humble is hard. We do need to accept what we have done wrong, and ask God to forgive us, and thank God for his sending Jesus to forgive our sins.


augustine72 4 years ago from India

Here are my views on the topic. I disagree with revengadown that it took a sin for God to realize His mistake. Neither do I agree that Genesis is a story.

Yes, there were two tree. The tree of 'knowledge of good and evil' and 'the tree of life'. Here is what we need to know about the tree of knowledge:

It was not a tree that would give them knowledge of good and evil. It is rather 'authority to decide' good and evil. They knew what was good and evil but it was God who would tell them that this was good and that was evil. They did not yet have the maturity to set up standards for good and evil. They would later on grow and reach that state. The tree was put there for them to eat from at that time. But right now they were not supposed to eat from it. They were not supposed to be the deciding authority of what was right and wrong but were supposed to follow God. Eve became impatient at Satan's temptation and she wanted the authority right away. She ate it.

God created man in His own image. He is eternal and Man was also created to be eternal. But man was given a chaise in this matter. He could decide when he had enough of being in this world and go to God. The tree of life was for that purpose. Man would continue live as long as he ate the fruit of the tree of life. When he wants to leave earth he would just stop eating the fruit.

Now man commuted a sin. He had a glory. Man was clothed with that glory, he could control nature, every being was under his control. This glory was found all over the earth. But when man sinned the glory left. He realized he had lost all his powers, he realized he was naked. And are we missing something here? Sickness and disease would now affect him. If a man was seriously ill he would suffer for sometime and would eventually die. But if what if he was permitted to take from that tree and eat? He would have to be in a sick state position for a long time. How much suffering would that be? So it was only proper that man should now have a short life span. That was why he was driven out of the garden.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@A M Werner,It's youwho is missing the point.My question was clear: which tree couldn't Adam and Ave eat from?I think it s very important to understand our fathers'downfall and to what extent is the bible we have today true.I believe that the Bible was inspired but wasn't protected by God because what you have today is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.( Jeremiah 8:8)"check Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption /tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

Anyway,returning to what you mentioned in your comment about humility that one"Christains" has Romans 7:18 to let their natural selves die in order to become a vessel to the glory of God.I believe that any task we set forth upon that is void of humility is tainted,and humbleness must exist if our intention in any action is pure.As human beings,we are blessed with wealth,intellect,and success;however, we must acknowledge that these blessings are provided to us by God,and we must thank Him.Indeed, God's blessings towards us are trials and opportunities for us to earn His approval and acceptance as believers. If we continue to live without true humility, our actions will continue to be destroyed by arrogance, conceit, and selfish ambition. By continuously thanking the Most Beneficent and Merciful for the blessings He has provided us, we avoid becoming arrogant and are able to join the ranks of the true Muslims.The Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him advised us to humble themselves before God and other Muslims, "And no one humbles himself before Allah but Allah will raise him (in status)." Just as humility can lead us to heaven and join us in the ranks of the Prophets and Imams, arrogance, the antagonistic force of humility, will lead us to the deepest and most dreaded pits of hell-fire.It is Satan’s arrogance that caused his expulsion from Paradise;when he refused to humbly obey God’s command and prostrate before Adam,the father of mankind,he condemned himself and his followers to Hell. Satan’s lack of submission, or humility, resulted in one of the most pious of God’s creatures falling into the abyss.

except Satan,he refused to be among the prostrators.God said, 'O Satan!What is your reason for not being among the prostrators? ‘Satan said: 'I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay...” (Quran 15:30-35)

no one who behaves arrogantly or who acts as if he or she has power over others is capable of true submission.All power and strength is from God Alone.All human beings are equal in the sight of God and the distinctions between nations, tribes, and families are only to know each other and not for the sake pride.

“O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with God is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa (God consciousness). Verily, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” (Quran 49:15

True piety or righteousness is not achievable without cultivating a sense of humility.

“And turn not your face away from men with pride, nor walk in insolence through the earth. Verily, God likes not each arrogant boaster.” (Quran 31:18)

One other point,humility comes from knowing about God and recognising His greatness,venerating Him,loving Him and being in awe of Him;and it comes from knowing about oneself and one’s own faults,and weaknesses.God gives this characteristic to those who struggle to become close to Him through deeds of piety and righteousness.Thus the knowledge of evil and good is very importnet to achieve genuine submission.in your Bible God says in Hosea 4:6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." If you don’t know what God says,you are going to be destroyed or lost for your lack of knowledge-It s so sad that all of you today follow the teachings of Paul the lair instead of Jesus's.-When people are ignorant of God’s directions on how He is to be worshipped, they wander in spiritual darkness.God says in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch."you must first have a desire to know the truth of God's will and then be willing to change when you find you are wrong and are not worshipping according to His truth.Jesus says in John 8:32, "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."or as R-Truth makes it in his own words in W.W.E:Truth shall set me free.:)

Only the truth can make us free,otherwise we are still under the bondage of ignorance.we may be sincere in our worship,and we must be,but if we do not worship God "in truth",that is as God directs,then our worship will be vain and unacceptable to God.

To finish,I'd like to give you some information about the best teacher of humanity Mohamed peace be upon him and one of his companion Omar ben Khattab to see the true humility and humblness.It is reported that Prophet Muhammad worked happily with servants or workers.Other companions related that the Prophet tidied his house, tied camels,feed animals,ate meals with his servants,and helped them in kneading dough and bringing provisions from the market.It was also reported that he used to visit the sick, attend funerals, ride on a donkey,slow down his pace for the sake of the weak and accept invitations from the poor.

The companions of Prophet Muhammad and the early generations of Muslims understood the concept of humility. They behaved humbly towards God and mankind because of their love for God,and their fellow man,and fear of punishment in the Hereafter.

During his Caliphate,Omar ibn Khattab was marching upon Damascus with his army. Abu Ubayda was with him.They came upon a little lake.Omar descended from his camel,took off his shoes,tied them together,and hung them on his shoulder.He then took the halter off his camel and they entered the water together.Seeing this in front of the army,Abu Ubayda said, “O Commander of the Believers!How can you be so humble in front of all your men?”Omar answered, “Woe to you, Abu Ubayda!If only anyone else other than you thought this way!thoughts like this will cause the downfall of the Muslims.Don't you see we were indeed a very lowly people?God raised us to a position of honour and greatness through Islam.If we forget who we are and wish other than the Islam which elevated us,the One who raised us surely will debase us.”

The one who is truly humble is the one who is truly blessed.every time he feels superior to others,he remembers God, the Most Great and Omnipotent, and humbles himself in true submission.

“And the slaves of God are those who walk on the earth in humility and calmness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they reply back with mild words of gentleness.” (Quran 25:63)


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 4 years ago from West Allis

revengadown, The Quran, okay - well, back to the Bible. Discovering the knowledge of good and evil is understanding laws, spiritual laws. In Genesis 3:22, the tree of life, or CHRIST in His Spiritual form could not be taken by corrupted fallen man, they had to be separated or live forever in this fallen state.

You wrote, "God's blessings towards us are trials and opportunities for us to earn His approval and acceptance as believers." That is not true of Christians. Real Christians can't win His approval and acceptance.

It is by faith our acceptance is secure.

1John 2:22 '. . . He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son.'

A Christian man can learn to be content with such things as the Lord provides, day by day

As Matthew 6:33 states, we seek first His kingdom and have no worry for the rest, be it much or be it little.

I have no issue with Muslims but for them to see that the Creator Yahweh had to send His Word in living flesh to save and redeem us. We had to be re-introduced to the tree of life. We still have to die in this life but the connection has been re-established. I pray and hope one day the Lord brings you to this conclusion. As long as you remain as zealous as you are in your faith, the Lord can use you. I'd much rather see such zeal like yours then the lukewarm faith I see in so many Christians today. Peace


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@A M Werner,When I debate with Christians like you,they generally say that the only way a person can get saved and go to Heaven is to believe and accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior who died for him on the cross to purify him from his sins.Anyone who doesn't believe in this would not be saved.They always bring the following verses from the Bible as a proof to this claim:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(From the NIV Bible, John 14:6)"

"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him(From the NIV Bible, John 3:15-17)"

It is important to know that most of the Bible, especially the New Testament , has general and controversial statements like this one.This verse might sound like a clear proof for the Trinitarians,but as we read the verses below, we will see that it really doesn't mean that the person HAS TO ACCEPT JESUS AS HIS MEDIATOR between him and GOD Almighty to be saved.let us read the following:

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. (From the NIV Bible, James 2:8)"

"The entire law is summed up in a single command:'Love your neighbor as yourself.'(From the NIV Bible, Galatians 5:14)"

Jesus said: loving GOD Almighty so much and being nice to your neighbors will cause you to have eternal life:

Luke 10

25.On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26."What is written in the Law?" he replied."How do you read it?"

27.He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied."Do this and you will live."

Jesus here didn't talk about any trinity-lie concept, nor did he say to the man that he must accept Jesus as a mediator between him and GOD Almighty to win Eternal Life.Jesus was pretty clear and straight forward here: LOVE GOD ALMIGHTY AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF. That is simply all there is to it to win eternal life in Jesus' standards.You may ask probably despite of all the evidences I stated here: What if I (Christian) am right and you (Muslim) are wrong?or in an other what if the belief about Jesus being the Creator of the Universe is true?What will happen to you as a non-believer?my answer to these questions is quite simple:I believe I would still be saved according to the Bible.Jesus himself guaranteed Paradise to those who Love and adore GOD Almighty, without making any reference or giving any relevance to the belief of trinity or him dying on the cross for anyone's sins:

Luke 10

25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

This is what I found when I looked,I dare you to prove me wrong from the Bible!!!

I m already on the Right Path,SO no need to pray for me but you can only when you become like me walking on this beautiful road to God:)


whatsreal 4 years ago

@revengadown how many hubs are you going to post the same comments on. You've been at this for a while haven't you. Cutting, pasting, laughing at people with real questions and concerns. You and you're posts are a distraction. Nothing more.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Whatsreal,It's you who is laughing at yourself.Cut and paste,do whatever you want but ONLY prove me you are something better than lost sheep.There is a proverb in Arab Culture says that dogs bark and the caravent moves on.Why did you delete your account?You would have better keep it because a travelling dog with good men will make it rational being at the end of the journy.It s true my last comment here was taken from an other hub by Mrs Michele, called :what happened to make pagans become Christainity.We had already talked about salvation there,so no need to say it in other words.I had other people to respond and I don't have that plenty of time.If you think I m a distraction,you are wrong.I m a parrot hehe because what I did was simply kind of repetition and Distraction is was a game show that aired on Channel 4 in the UK 2004.Presented by comedian Jimmy Carr,the show involves contestants answering questions, while being distracted in various bizarre, painful and humiliating ways.If you want to know me,just lift up a finger and wait my permission because I m a teacher


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Jesus is the son of God. God created the universe. Jesus came to earth as the son of God in human form. His purpose was to spread the teachings of God and to ultimatly die on the cross so that we who believe in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus.

THe concept of the trinity, father, son and holy spirit all in one but separate is hard if not impossible to understand. It is something that as Christians we choose to accept on faith.

I am not one who can quote scriptures, chapter and verse. I know the books of the Bible were written independently of each other and later assembled in what we know as the Bible today.

You may find contradictions. You may find confusing factors. If you try to apply ancient customs to this day's standards, you will have conflict, mainly because women were not treated as equals and the whole world is not discussed in the Bible.

If you try to take the ancient writings which have been translated more times than any of us know and try to apply the rules of modern English to them, you will get confusion.

There is a passage that states sweat fell from Jesus like drops of blood. In the Mel Gibson movie, it depicted the drops falling as blood. For that to be accurate the Bible would have said that sweat fell as drops of blood.

If you accept that God is real and Jesus died for our sins and belief in God is the key to our salvation, you do not need to get tied up in the minute details.

For example, Catholics are taught that acceptance of Jesus as our savior and good works will get you into Heaven. As a former Baptist, I was taught that if you really believe in Jesus, you will do good works for others and practice what you have learned.

The scriptures have been debated for centuries and will still be a mystery until we come face to face with our maker.

Let's tone down the rhetoric and accept the fact that people can read the same words and get different meanings, especially when you jump from book to book, and verse to verse.

God loves you. Accept it.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown. I think you are correct. You have probably seen this on my hubpage, but it is true. God or Allah He does love all of His children.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/God-Loves-...


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It s Whatsreal whoprobably confused me with someone else:)I ve just finished reading your hub.You are doing the right thing that,soon I m sure you will find the Ultimate Truth,just keep knocking and knocking till it opens.It s the first step to the Enlightment.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I think you are correct. Thank you for your comment. And if you do not mind I will ask God to bless you.


augustine72 4 years ago from India

@ revengadown

Allow me to comment to your post here. The way you argue is incorrect. First you say this IS what the scripture says. Then you say that's all the verse says. Then you deduce that since that is all the verse says this is the they way things must be. Let me explain.

In Luke 10 a man comes to Jesus and asked a question to test Jesus. That man was an expert in the Law. What was his motive behind the question? Was it to test Jesus? You might say 'yes for that is what the verse says.' But the fact is he did not ask this to test Jesus.

Before continuing I would say something about the versions of the bible. The KJV version of the Bible is the most accurate. In all other version either the translation is incorrect or diluted. So if you want to debate on fair ground why not use the KJV.

Coming to Luke 10 the expert in Law asked a question to 'tempt' the Lord. He wanted to prove Jesus Christ and make Him say some 'trinity-lie concept' stuff. Jesus had to answer correctly at the same time word it properly. So He puts across a question

"What is written in the law?" The man replies "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

Jesus replied "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

The question how to we Love the Lord in such a way? For this one would need to know God closely. How is that possible? You need to have the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) in us.

1Co_2:11 ...even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

We need to have the Holy Spirit in us and that is the only we can keep this command properly.

Therefore Jesus Christ is the only way to enter eternal life.


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 4 years ago from West Allis

revengadown, one thing I've learned is that Christians can only plant seeds but the Lord gives the growth. There is no way that I or anyone else here on hubpages or any other social media site can make you believe what we know in our hearts to be true. Perhaps somewhere down the line, later on in your life, the Lord will have you experience something that will give some of the words that have been offered to you here some growth. All we can do is scatter the seeds.

When I say that Yahshua is the way, I mean it exactly as He states it - that He is the truth. That means those that honor and respect truth, honor and respect Him; and without even ever knowing His name or His story, accept Him.

And believe me, throwing the trinity debate in front of me is not the right argument because I don't believe in the trinity and have never preached it.

The best way for a doubter to handle the Bible is to keep confusing subject matters by changing the course and direction of the discussion. If a person has a response for one situation, a different situation is suddenly offered up and the person is expected to make the two separate incidents somehow magically align. I answered the question about the two trees and the disobedience and rebellion in the Garden of Eden and suddenly you switch to accepting "Jesus" and the trinity. If you want to keep switching around, I guess that is fine - but its not productive and it ends up being a lot of foolish Bible quoting - which may nearly amount to pearls before swine.

If you speak to Christians to learn better the way they believe, that is one thing.

If you speak to Christians with the purpose of conversion, that is another thing. Peace


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

Michele like the Easter-bunny several day ago I have been hopping around out here and again ran into your lovely controversial hub I then needed to hop on and make a comment to A M Werner his comment is concise and non-judgmental he states his own belief (s) without stepping on any one else's the last 2 lines written by this gentleman really is something I too adhere to. It is the right to believe what is comfortable or comforting to the individual exercising their belief system. These to me are acts of faith. Act as in action how you behave toward self and others is the key for me not the ideology involved. Again love to see how your hub-s generate discussion take nothing personal just continue to keep your talent coming.


whatsreal 4 years ago

No, revengadown. I don't have you confused with someone else. I know exactly who you are. You are a roaring lion looking for someone to devour ;)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Laura, sometimes people do get argue with each other but A M Werner never does. He is very kind. I agree with him when I read his hubs. I do not believe in the Trinity either. But, the Pagan hub I can't keep up with right now.


whatsreal 4 years ago

yeah, and sometimes numbers on a blog are more important than taking a stand for something you believe in. Right Michelle?

"You are right... Allah loves us all."

"Can I pray to God for you?"

Make up your mind Michelle. Are you making friends or making a point?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

whatsreal it does not matter what you call God. God is God. Jehovah, God, Yahshua, my Father, He is our Father. He does love us. He is God, he created the entire universe. All reality and everything in it. No, I am not just trying to make friends. I do pray for people, it is something I do. and no I am not trying to make a point.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Michele, you do make friends, whether or not your new friends realize it. While we disagree on a couple of points, I know you are a woman of deep faith who cares about her fellow man so you, like others I have been fortunate to know, do make everyone your friend. If those people do not want to accept what you offer through your spiritual friendship, then that is their loss.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Larry, that means a lot to me. And yes we disagree on a few things, but we both know God is God. God loves us and we love God. Those are wonderful things.

And I am fortunate to know you also.


whatsreal 4 years ago

Yeah, it matters. Allah is not God, no more than the Quran is the Bible. You have a "coexist" sticker on your car don't cha? You are lukewarm, Michele. Pray for me.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Several of you do not believe in the trinity and that is your right. But consider this. God created the universe, handed the Commandments to Moses and gave us his only son Jesus,who died for our sins. Jesus was born of the virgin, walked the earth, preached the good news and was crucified by the people he loved. He died so that we might live. Some would say that since then, God has not been among us. I would say that the holy spirit is among us. As a convert to Catholicism I am with a lot of people who grew up praying the prayers given to them by the church. At family gatherings I am often asked to say the blessing. At times, I have given prayers, that I could had never written in advance. They were spontaneous and I believe the work of the Holy Spirit. I have seem some desperate times during my life--my father dying in my arms, my mother dying of ALS, my son near death after a near fatal auto accident, and my own near death experience many years and naturally have prayed. But a often I have a feeling that things are going to work out for the best. I believe that is God speaking as the holy spirit and the third part of the trinity. Also, there have been times when something, and I can think of nothing else that told me that the young lady I met on a blind date 33 years ago, was going to be my wife. I knew that first date. She took a little convincing. Some of you will disagree, but I bet if you examine your own lives, you can find times when perhaps it was the holy spirit that lead you or comforted you.

If you accept God as the Father and God as the son, I do not understand why some cannot accept the holy spirit that dwells within us when we accept Christ as our savior.

I did not plan to write this. I just had a feeling that I should.

My best to all and may God bless each of you.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@bookbeam,God loves and treats all humans alike with compassion and mercy.It’s Him who created us out of nothing and presented the earth with thousands of benefactions like sun,sea,wind…to service us. Why us?because we are the vicegerents of God on earth.It doesn’t matter if we are Muslims or Unbelievers.His compassion covers everywhere.If it doesn’t,He wouldn’t have created us and given these benefactions for our benefit.

“Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy: if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people."(Sura 6:133

Saying Allah is biased because he does not love the unbelievers (3:32) is the idea of some Christains like you who hate Islam unlike Bush who announced that Islam is the religion of peace!. Now I am not going to bother wasting my time trying to repeat myself again,only what I can do is to cut and paste my answer to that comment where you implied that I am bomb suicider if you want. I don't have that plenty of time to paint you an other picture.I think you have seen far enough with evidences who was a real bomb suicider throughout history .Now,excuse me l m going to turn the table on you, using the same argument you used against Quranic perception of Allah.Before doing that let me tell you something don’t you think that it is very ironic when Muslims write against Christianity, and expose a couple of Christian missionaries you all of a sudden become hateful. How does that work? Or I get it now, it seems that you are nurtured by hatred and smouldered by grudge, and that only Christians can attack Islam, and a few Muslim apologists, but Muslims can’t do it in return.How do I hate Christians? Just because I write against Christianity makes me a hater? Attacking Islam and Muslims in their homes are legal and preached by insane people legal .You re always fond of claiming that you don’t hate Muslims, but you simply are bringing objective (laughing) arguments against Islam and Muslims. This is exactly what I am doing, how does that make me a hater of Christians?

To further silence the pathetic propagandis Whatsreal, I have many Christian friends; does it make sense for me to have Christian friends when I hate them so much? But it is good that you wrote such utter nonsense, because in doing so it exposed this mans sick mentality,that according to him, any Muslim who attacks the Christian faith automatically becomes a hater of Christians, but if Christians do it then its okay.Indeed such characteristics in Whatsreal shows him to be similar to ruthless street thugs who have committed several hate crimes against Muslims, and it is who hates the Muslim.I m here not to twist the messages of the Bible and insulting Christians and their faith or to laugh at you as Whatsreal said but is to clear the name of Jesus the Prophet peace be upon him that he blasphemed against Allah by claiming a share in Allah s divinity and it was Prophet Muhammad who brought the good news that Prophet Jesus did not die on the cross as the Qur'an so affirmatively asserts. He cleared the name of Prophet Jesus that he allegedly betrayed his covenant to God as a prophet and divine messenger. He put the life of Prophet Jesus in clear perspective and bore witness that he was but a man commissioned by God to call humanity to God's way and was given special powers to help him accomplish his mission.

Plus in the day of Judgment,Allah will ask every Muslim about what they offered to Islam so I m here trying to do the best I can to open your eyes to the big lie which was invented by someone who never met Jesus in person and who was persistent to know who was really Jesus not that I m confused or had intention to convert to Christianity.That s reall ridiculous Mr A M Werner ?.Morever,to the fact that the earth's population is around 7.0 billion people, half of which are far-eastern pagans. Not only that, but their pagan religions (buddhism, hinduism, shintos, etc...) date thousands of years back. This means that many billions of humans have already been doomed in Hell because of their paganism. they are the majority!

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To whatsreal "Many a man curses the rain that falls upon his head, and knows not that it brings abundance to drive away hunger." St. Basil


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Now, Let us look at some verses of the Bible to see if GOD truelly doesn’t hate.

Psalm 5:4-6

4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;

with you the wicked cannot dwell.

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;

you hate all who do wrong.

6 You destroy those who tell lies;

bloodthirsty and deceitful men

the LORD abhors.

Psalm 11:5

5 The LORD examines the righteous,

but the wicked and those who love violence

his soul hate

You argue and say that book of psalm is a book of poetry and we can not establish any doctrine related verdicts based on books of poetry .even though this argument is very lame.I will accept it for sake of argument and show God hates from other books of the bible which are not book of poetry

Ecclesiastes 3:8

8 a time to love and a time to hate,

a time for war and a time for peace.

Leviticus 20:23

23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.

Deuteronomy 18:12

12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

Leviticus 26:30

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Romans 9:13

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

we believe that Allah has put us on earth and made us all Muslims by fitrah (nature). That it is natural for all of us to want to know God. To get to know God. We are born pure. It is like he has put us all on a highway leading to paradise but there are many exits. People unfortunately take those exits despite God warning us not to take them. Therefore, those who turn away from the mercy of God. Reject the love that God wants to give them and has already given them from the start. Therefore, God does not love them anymore. They do not deserve to be loved. Allah is fair,How does it make a believer feel that with all the good deeds he has done and all the love that he showed towards God and then finds out that God loves the corrupt people equally? It is not fair. It is illogical and how is it fair - in a point was discussed here- a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a condumend sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for himself? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot! What about the madman? Is he also a sinner? According to original sin he is. How can God condemn a madman who cannot use his reason and be able to make a rational decision? Truly this is unjust. Islam does not hold these kind of people accountable.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Since Adam s expulsion from heaven,God didn’t let him go astray or hang out to dry.He supported him and his children by continuous revelations and guidance so as to be able to discern between the truth and illusion.

One of the great illusion is that people throughout history set up idols beside God ,thinking they are in better position so they could bring them closer to Him.The Quran cites many idol worships:

1.Calf,statues as idols:

[2:51] Yet, when we summoned Moses for forty nights, you worshiped the calf in his absence, and turned wicked.

[21:51-53] Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him. He said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?" They said, "We found our parents worshiping them."

2.Jinns’demonds’ as idol :

6:100] Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.

3.Children as idols:

[7:190] But when He gives them a good baby, they turn His gift into an idol that rivals Him. GOD be exalted, far above any partnership.

4.Human as idol:

[7:194] The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right.

5.Satan as idol:

[14:22] And the devil will say, after the judgment had been issued, "GOD has promised you the truthful promise, and I promised you, but I broke my promise. I had no power over you; I simply invited you, and you accepted my invitation. Therefore, do not blame me, and blame only yourselves. My complaining cannot help you, nor can your complaining help me. I have disbelieved in your idolizing me. The transgressors have incurred a painful retribution."

6.God s servant as idol:

[18:102] Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.

7.Ego as idol:

[25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate?

[45:23] Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?

8.Creating sect in religion is idol worship :

(30:31-32)You shal submit to Him,reverence Him,observe the Contact prayers(Salat),and-whatever you do-do not ever fall into idol worship.(Do not fall in idol worship)like those who divide their religion into sects,each party rejoicing with what they have.

9.Jesus as idol:

(5;72) pagans indeed are those who say that God is the Messiah,son of Mary.The messiah himself said “O children of Israel,you shall worship God,my lord and your lord”Anyone who sets up any idol beside God,God has forbidden paradise for him,and his destiny is Hell.The wicked have no helpers”

Of course there are many other idols could be mentioned:drugs,alcohol,love of power,love of pleasure.An idol could be anything that you allow to take first place in your life instead of Allah.

For this reason, Islam came to put an end to this illusion and to return people to God “Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him’ Quran 112 :1-4

So , Islam rests solely on its doctrine of tawhid, meaning literally “making one”,


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

theologically “making no partner with God ”, confessing that God alone is God and there is no other. In Islam,it is not permissible to speak about the Essence of Allah The Almighty by referring to one’s mind for the human mind is feeble to realize the Essence of the Creator The Exalted and whatever image comes to your mind about Allah The Almighty should be rejected,Our prophet peace be upon him says “think of the creatures that God created and do not think of His Essence” here you may ask him: If the mind cannot realize the Essence of Allah The Almighty, so how can one know Allah The Almighty while knowing him is obligatory upon every person(Muslim)?The answer is quite simple knowing Allah The Almighty can be attained through knowing His Attributes such as Al-Wujood (Existence), Qidam(being without beginning, and eternal in the past), Al-Baqaa’(being without end, and eternal in the future;), Mukhaalafah lil Hawaadith(unlike the created beings), Qaa’im bi Nafsih (Self-independent), Al-Wahdaaniyyah (Oneness), Life, Knowledge, Power, Will, Hearing, Seeing and Speech..

To summarise this point, He is ‘more than us’ in every aspect of existence, and this would include both His unity and His robustness. As a human, I am an integrated unity (a unity of body, soul, spirit) but God is more integrated than I ..He is a unit of no ‘parts’. I am also a bundle of various attributes, capabilities, aspects, perspectives, elements (a plurality of internal states) but God is more robust than that..He has many more attributes, perspectives, internal states than do I. I am a simple being--but God is 'more simple'. I am a complex being but God is 'more complex'.Iben Khaldon says: “you can’t measure the mountains by the the gold measure”

Worth to mention here is that the Quran doesn’t discuss the actuals ‘ insides’ of God and the earliest Muslims had no problem talking about the multiple perfections within one God,they simply accepted what the scripture said without twisting the verses into something other than what they appeared. When the Islamic scriptures said that God was One, they were understood to mean that there was only one God only one being that could correctly be called God. It meant that there were not two gods, or three gods, or ten gods, or hundreds of gods. It meant that God had no partner gods, wife goddesses, or offspring gods -- sons or daughters. There were no other gods in existence to even be partners, wives, or children gods.

To say that God was One was to say that God was alone, that God was different from everything else, and that God had no equals or rivals. Imam Ali :

To know God is to know his oneness. To say that God is one has four meanings: two of them are false and two are correct. As for the two meaning that are false, one is that a person should say "God is one" and be thinking of number and counting. This is false because that which has no second cannot enter into the category of number. Do you not see that those who say that God is a third of a trinity fall into this infidelity? Another meaning is to say, "So-and-So is one of his people," namely, a species of this genus or a member of this species. This meaning is also false when applied to God, because it implies likening something to God, whereas God is above all likeness. As to the two meaning that are correct when applied to God, one is that it should be said that "God is one"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

in the sense that there is no likeness to him among things. Another is to say that "God is one" in the sense that there is no multiplicity or division conceivable in Him, neither outwardly, nor in the mind, nor in the imagination. God alone possesses such a unity.

The sin of idolatry can start from a small thought or whisper:

“The Shaytaan(devils) comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

According to this narration, Mohamed peace be upon him told us that devils first whisper usual things (Such as ”Who created this tree”), and in the end, they ask us a polythiest question.What is supposed to do here is to fight and give up these thoughts and make ourselves busy with other,useful things.

But later when the Islam become widespread,some new ideas started to forground such as the sovereignty of Allah vs freedom of human will,the essence of Allah:does He have body?eyes?hands?Is Quran a creation?...Many Muslim theologians and philosophers said far enough about this issues.If you want to have a peek, here is a simple example below:

The Quran states,on the one hand,that there is nothing that equals God,and that he has no like(Qur'an 42.11, 112.4 but on the other hand,it describes Him as having face,hand and eyes and as talking,and sitting on the Throne and as having feelings Qur'an 55.17, 38.75, 54.14, 2.153, 20.5, 2.26)Those who are supposed to have advocated anthropomorphism (likening God to man- tashbih) brought forward rational arguments in addition to their literal interpretation of the sacred texts.On the assumption that only bodies have existence, they argued that since God exists, He is a body. Also whoever acts must be a body, according to reality and reason. Since God acts, He must be a body. The counter arguments were that since any body is composed of parts, whereas God is one, and since any body is produced in time whereas God is eternal, it is inconceivable to liken God to a body and this is what lead Many theologians to be tortured for calling the sects and groups to stop debating with each other over things that would lead them to polytheism and to return immediately to the Quran, teachings of the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him and the understanding of Islam of the earlier Muslims.When the Jews said that Allah’s hand is tied up, the earlier Muslims (Prophet’s companions) didn’t puzzle over it or went whispering to each other that Allah had hand so He had a body-they were the knights of eloquence and fluency .That s why Quran was revealed in Arabic to challenge them-,they knew what Jews meant by that exactly;that Allah is miser and does not spend from what He has.Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him.Allah says in other verse:Let not your hand be tied to your neck(like miser),nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach(like spendthrift),so that you become blameworthy and sever poverty”in this verse Allah forbids stringiness and extravagance.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

In Christainity,people went astray when Rome's Emperor Constantin decided to "unify" the Christians under one "Canon" modern New Testaments with all of their current variations and conflicting versions because they were so divided among each others as to who Jesus really was and what really happened to him! Take for instance the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", which talks about Jesus' childhood life in good details but according to according to the New Testament itself, all of Jesus' Disciples fled for their lives on the night of crucifixion. None of them witnessed Jesus' crucifixion except for one, that is Saint Peter! He was the lone and only witness of the actual crucifixion event. Let us look at what the Bible's New Testament says:

Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

.......

55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. (Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.)

57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Now as we clearly see, Peter did witness the so-called crucifixion event. He was present there. The only thing that saved him from death is his denial that he knew Jesus. Otherwise, he would've got crucified that night.

Take into considerations that these verses were written in the third narration ,which indicates that the Bible was written by mysterious men.

Now let s move the Apocalypse of Peter was directly written and spoken by Peter himself not third narration This Revelation was widely accepted and believed in by the early Christians during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. Here are the fragments of his Apocalypse.

As the Savior was sitting in the temple in the three hundredth year of the covenant and the agreement of the tenth pillar, and being satisfied with the number of the living, incorruptible Majesty, he said to me (Peter),


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

"Peter, blessed are those above belonging to the Father, who revealed life to those who are from life, through me, since I reminded them, they who are built on what is strong, that they may hear my word, and distinguish words of unrighteousness and transgression of the law from righteousness, as being from the height of every word of this Pleroma of truth, having been enlightened in good pleasure by him whom the principalities sought. But they did not find him, nor was he mentioned among any generation of the prophets. He has now appeared among these, in him who appeared, who is the Son of Man who is exalted above the heavens in fear of men of like essence. But you yourself, Peter, become perfect in accordance with your name with myself, the one who chose you, because from you I established a base for the remnant whom I have summoned to knowledge. Therefore be strong until the imitation of righteousness - of him who had summoned you, having summoned you to know him in a way which forth doing because of the rejection which happened to him, and the sinews of his hands and his feet, and the crowning by those of the middle region, and the body of his radiance which they bringing hope of service because of a reward of honor - as he was about to reprove you three times in this night".

And as he was saying these things I saw the priests and the people running up to us with stones, as if they would kill us; and I was afraid that we were going to die. And he said to me: "Peter, I have told you many times that they are blind ones who have no guide. If you want to know their blindness, put your hands before your eyes - your robe - and say what you see." But when I had done it, I did not see anything. I said "No one sees this way" And he said to me, "Do it again." And there came in me fear with joy, for I saw a new light greater than the light of day. Then it came down upon the Savior. And I told him about those things which I saw. And he said to me again, "Lift up your hands and listen to what the priests and the people are saying." And I listened to the priests as they sat with the scribes. The multitudes were shouting with their voice. When he heard these things from me he said to me "prick up your ears and listen to the things they are saying." And I listened again, "As you sit, they are praising you." And when I said these things , the Savior said "I have told you that these people are blind and deaf. Now then, listen to the things which they are telling you in a mystery, and guard them. Do not tell them to the sons of this age. For they shall blaspheme you in these ages since they are ignorant of you, but they will praise you in knowledge - for many will accept our teaching in the beginning, and they will turn from them again by the will of the Father by their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And they praise the men of propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."


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revengadown 4 years ago

"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching, and they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: those who stand in the strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption - for evil cannot produce good fruit. For the place from which each of them is produces that which is like itself; for not every soul is of the truth, nor of immortality. For every soul of these ages has death assigned to it in our view, and their eternal destruction, in which they are and from which they are. They love the creatures of the matter which came forth with them. But the immortal souls are not like these, O Peter. But indeed, as long as the hour is not yet come, the immortal soul shall resemble the mortal one. But it shall not reveal its nature, that it alone is the immortal one, and thinks about immortality, having faith, and desiring to renounce these things."

"For people do not gather figs from thorns or from thorn trees, if they are wise, nor grapes from thistles. For on the one hand, that which is always becoming is in that from which it is, being from what is not good, which becomes destruction for it and death. But that which comes to be in the Eternal One is in the One of the life and the immortality of the life which they resemble. Therefore all that which exists not will dissolve into what exists not. For deaf and blind ones join only with their own kind. But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone. And in haughtiness they shall grasp at the pride to envy the immortal soul which has become a pledge. For every authority rule, and power of the aeons wishes to be with these in the creation of the world, in order that those who are not, having been forgotten by those that are, may praise them, though they have not been saved, nor have they been brought to the Way by them, always wishing that they may become imperishable ones. For if the immortal soul receives power in an intellectual spirit. But immediately they join with one of those who mislead them."

"But many others, who oppose the truth and are the messengers of error, will set up their error and their law against these pure thoughts of mine, as looking out from one perspective, thinking that good and evil are from one source. They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate. The race of immortal souls will go in it in vain, until my Parousia. For they shall come out of them, and my forgiveness of their transgressions into which they fell through the adversaries, whose ransom I got from the slavery in which they were, to give them freedom that they may create an imitation remnant in the name of a dead man, who is Hermas, of the first-born of unrighteousness, in order that the light which exists may not be believed by the little ones. But those of this sort are the workers who will be cast into the outer darkness, away from the sons of light. For neither will they enter, nor do they permit those who are going up to their approval for their release."

"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishments of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, and whom they took prisoner."

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."


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revengadown 4 years ago

But I said " I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little ones are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed." The Savior said , "For a time determined for them in proportion to their error they will rule over the little ones. And after the completion of the error, the never-aging one of the immortal understanding shall become young, and the little ones shall ruler over those who are their rulers. The root of their error He shall pluck out, and He shall put it to shame so that it shall be manifest in all the impudence which it has assumed to itself. And such ones shall become unchangeable, O Peter."

"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place." But he said to me, "I have told you, "Leave the blind alone!" And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."

And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was filled with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed. And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel, in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma , which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."

"These things, then, which you saw you shall present to those of another race who are not of this age (i.e., the Arabs who then became Muslims). For there will be no honor in any man who is not immortal, which has shown that it is able to contain him who gives his abundance. Therefore I said, "Every one who has, it will be given to him, and he will have plenty." But he who does not have, that is, the man of this place, who is completely dead, who is removed from the planting of the creation of what is begotten, whom, if one of the immortal essence appears, they think that they possess him - it will be taken from him and be added to the one who is. You, therefore, be courageous and do not fear at all. For I shall be with you in order that none of your enemies may prevail unto you. Peace be to you, Be strong!"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

notice how the Revelation of Peter is original. It is not narrated by a third-party person. It was spoken and written by Saint Peter himself. There are few points I'd like to elaborate on from the Apocalypse:

1- Jesus, peace be upon him, clearly never got crucified according to the Revelation. He spoke about the "substitute" that got crucified in his place that perfectly matches the Noble Quran's Divine Claims:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

2- Peter according to the NT and to the Apocalypse was the only one who witnessed the crucifixion. There is even further evidence in Hebrews 5:7 of the NTthat clearly support Peter's Apocalypse.

3- Jesus pointed to the Arabs as the future race when he called them "another race." Even the New Testament supports this quote very well:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

4- The "blind" from the polytheist trinitarian pagans and the others who believed and still believe that Jesus got crucified will never prevail. They only believe in lies without certain knowledge. Even their scriptures are all man-made as we clearly saw above in the third-party narration proofs. This goes well, by the way, with the following Noble Verses:

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (The Noble Quran, 3:55)"

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

5- The Apocalypse of Peter indeed confirms Peter's disowning of Jesus three times as mentioned in the NT verses above. The Apocalypse's quote: "as he was about to reprove you three times in this night" clearly refers to when Peter disowned Jesus three times.

6- Notice the "tree" part where Jesus was sitting on top of. There are some mixed signals/evidence in the NT that prove the Truthfulness of the Apocalypse of Peter. The NT itself can not make up its mind on whether the so-called crucifixion took place on a cross or on a tree. It seems that many of the "blind" ones back then got confused with whether or not Jesus got crucified on the cross or on the tree. The mention of the "tree" was obviously done by Peter and his followers. But as years and centuries passed by (the NT was written around year 300....300 years after Jesus!), false stories and lies were fabricated and rumored regarding Jesus, the cross and the tree. Let us look at the following verses:


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Tree?

Acts 5

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Acts 13

28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:

Cross?

Matthew 27

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

Matthew 27

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

Mark 15

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Luke 23

25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

John 19

18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

So the Apocalypse of Peter answers this confusion and the real Jesus was sitting on the tree, while the false servant was on the cross!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Morever,the current trinity lie is not different from the far eastern pagan religions:You say that since most Christians today are "Trinitarians" or polytheist trinitarian pagans who believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then this must mean that their religion is Divine and Truthful.

I have already showed you above about what Jesus said regarding the "blind" ones. But even according to the New Testament itself, trinitarians are actually false because they are the majority and they are the "blind" ones. Let us look at the following verses:

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

At last let me inform you anout what happened exactly in time of persecution as many christain historians stated:there were three basic periods of the persecution. The first was from the death of Christ until right before the Great Fire of 64 A.D., which Nero falsely blamed Christians for. However, this first persecution "was a mere afterthought, and did not result in any general proscription" (Cary and Scullard, p. 487). The second period lasted from the end of the first until around 250 A.D., and the final one spanned the years from 250/251, the persecution under Decius, until 313. Up until 250, the persecution was sporadic and localized. However, from 250-251 the Emperor Decius instituted what Michael Grant, an eminent classical historian, calls a "systematic persecution of the Christians" (Grant, p. 157). During this persecution, Decius even executed Pope Fabianus, after which he supposedly remarked: "I would far rather receive news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop in Rome.""

"The Christians were persecuted for a variety of reasons. First, they denied the basis for the Roman imperium (‘command, rule, empire, supreme power') by advocating that their God was the only real God. This denied the existence of the pagan Roman gods. These same Roman gods, in a sense, founded Rome, because according to legend and popular belief, Romulus, the offspring of the Roman god of war, Mars, founded the city of Rome in 753 B.C. This gave the Romans a divine basis for their temporal power. When the Christians denied the existence of Mars, they attacked the foundation of Roman power. Since they were attacking Roman authority and power, the Romans came to view Christians as a threat to the state....."

The threat of Religion to the pagan Rome was definitely one of the main reasons why religious people as a whole (Jews and early Christians) were persecuted and killed. There is not a single shred of evidence that proves:

The Disciples of Jesus believed in the polytheist trinity paganism

Died for this false and man-made belief.

Died for the belief that Jesus died on the cross. They were not even the authors of the "gospels" that were attributed to them.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

When I m not here Gentlmen AUGUSTIN WHATSREAL means I m either writing an answer to you or doing some other errands.I ve my own life to live.Don't be judgmental and when you come to talk to me, talk logically,leave your emotions or what you took for granted apart and show me what you got!


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

Michele do not go between a bully and his ideologies his forum should be his own hubs and not yours. The gentleman obviously has his belief systems and is entitled but having an opinion and using up space on your hub that can be used for positive and possibly some negative feed-back generated off of your ideas is really in poor taste. revengadown after reading your diatribe here I am mildly interested in looking at some of your hub-work. But note being the bully on the playground may make you have to stay after school. especially when you are beating up on people not commenting directly on your own forums.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hi Laura, I think he is only arguing with whatsreal. whatsreal is the only one who is nasty. But, I am just sort of staying out of it now. You know what I mean?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Accusing Michel of making friends instead of making a stand to what she believe in.She was clear enough that Going to church doesn't make her a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes her a car.How can she go to hear such nonsenseness andabsurdities like God s stupidity is smarter than all of us!!?????

The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Corinthians 1:25)"

Here are the countless English translations of this verse. Literally, almost 100% of all of the English translations agree:

Corinthians 1:25 (New International Version)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (New American Standard Bible)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Amplified Bible)

25[This is]because the foolish thing(that has its source in)God is wiser than men, and the weak thing [that springs] from God is stronger than men.

Because the stupid thing in GOD???

1 Corinthians 1:25 (New Living Translation)

25 This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (King James Version)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (English Standard Version)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Contemporary English Version)

25E when God is foolish he is wiser than everyone else, and even when God is weak, he is stronger than everyone else.

Even when GOD is stupid???

1 Corinthians 1:25 (New King James Version)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (21st Century King James Version)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (American Standard Version)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Young's Literal Translation)

25 because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men;

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Darby Translation)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

25 because God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (New International Reader's Version)

25The foolish things of God are wiser than human wisdom. The weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

The stupid things of GOD???

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Wycliffe New Testament)

25For that that is folly thing of God , is wiser than men; and that that is the feeble thing of God [and that that is the

sick thing, or frail, of God], is stronger than men.

The folly things of GOD???

1 Corinthians 1:25 (New International Version - UK)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (Today's New International Version)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Let us analyze this foolish and blasphemous verse from Paul:

1- Regardless of how smart and stupid GOD and us humans are, our intelligence will never reach even the stupidity of GOD!

2- GOD is a fool.

3- GOD is weak.

4- Man is more foolish and weaker than GOD.

5- The comparison itself is very insulting and degrading to GOD Almighty. It is also limiting to Him since our finite and limited intelligence and strength were compared to His infinite Attributes.

So,Mr Whatsreal what s stand you want her to take?and where in GARAGE?she isn’t a car Mr or temptress.How you want her to go to the temple which lays the entire blame for the fall of man and the genesis of sin on woman? And how you want her to go to a place who was sacrileged by some of the canonized saints of Christianity who have said about woman:

"Woman is a daughter of Falsehood, a sentinel of Hell, the enemy of peace; through her Adam lost Paradise."

(St. John Damascene)

"Woman is the instrument which the Devil uses to gain possession of our souls."

(St. Cyprian)

"Woman is the fountain of the arm of the Devil; her voice is the hissing of the serpent"

(St. Anthony)

"Women has the poison of an asp, the malice of a dragon."

(St. gregory the Great)

Wake up from your own illusion and face the reality,Mr whatsreal!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@laura,I will write hubs soon,I need to gather my comments which are scattered here and there.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown the only thing I am sure of, is that whatsreal will never write a hub.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

He doesn' have the guts :) but let s keep our hopes high:)


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

ok Michele I'm hopping off your playground you have it gracefully covered as usual. Keep em coming I so enjoy the dialogues/debate your hubs generate.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ok, will try, but we might have to wait a while :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thanks it was good to see you! Hope you have a good day!


frogyfish profile image

frogyfish 4 years ago from Central United States of America

What a new topic for me...and I think it might 'right on'. Interesting to discover, and skim through comments too.


whatsreal 4 years ago

cut/paste/confuse/lies... and you lemmings are feeding into revengadown's lunacy. Say what you will, but I don't water down the truth for the sake of communal back stroking. BUT, you win... I'll leave you elitists to your own altruistic self loathings.

One final thought...

"Stand for something or fall for anything"

Thanks for reading my Hub.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

frogyfish, thank you. You have great hubs, thank you reading some of mine.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

whatsreal what hub did your write? I would like to read it? If you do not mind.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Whatsreal,Listen, are you always this stupid or are you just making a special effort today?I heard you were so cool that you began teaching remedial classes at Cucumber college.


wba108@yahoo.com profile image

wba108@yahoo.com 4 years ago from upstate, NY

Interesting insights here! I've heard that when Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they ceased to understand God relationally and began to operate in a spirit of religious legalism ie.-relating to God through a system of do's and don'ts! In other words they had knowledge without relationship therefore they had become corrupted and had to leave the garden.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

wba108@yahoo.com what do you mean? They had become politicians?


wba108@yahoo.com profile image

wba108@yahoo.com 4 years ago from upstate, NY

I guess you could say that! lol


Rodric29 profile image

Rodric29 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

This is a great Hub and I enjoyed you perspective. When I first gathered to read this article I did so with apprehension because so many articles about religious things are written from an elementary perspective and a "I dare you to disagree with me" sentiment.

Your article however remained true to the text you used and fits well with logic. I would like to add to your article that the reason those two left the garden was not because they were like God only, but that they had transgressed His command to not partake of the tree of Good and evil whose fruit is sin or the knowledge to sin. If Adam and Eve would have then partaken of the Tree of Eternal life and lived forever in their sins and frustrated the plan of Happiness that God had for them.

In order to prevent them from destroying the plan he had for them and keeping them from keeping the second commandment to be fruitful and multiply, he banished them and gave the laws and an opportunity to repent with a savior to pay for the original transgression because of Universal laws that govern justice--someone had to pay the price for transgressing the law or Adam and Eve's bodies would crumble tot he earth and their existence would be for naught. When God organized their bodies he did so with the understanding that they would live forever.

Not that he was unaware of the fall that would eventually happen because he had a plan with the savior already being a part of it. In other words, the "us" that he speaks of includes Jesus Christ.

To clue you in, I am a Mormon so my perspective about Adam and Even includes the belief that we lived before we were born as spirits in God's presence as His Children therefor we are all siblings. I might do a hub about it.

Thanks for the hub, voted up!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment, it was wonderful. I hope you do make a hub about it, I would love to read it. I am sorry I do not know much about Mormons, so it would be a very interesting hub!


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Rodric:

I agree with Michele (good way to start the day, right Michele--we disagree sometimes, but are really friends.) and you should do a Hub. My knowledge of the Morman faith is limited. I know the Morman church does a lot of good work and I would like to know more about it in the straight forward manner you presented in your comment. Very enlightening.


lambservant profile image

lambservant 4 years ago from Pacific Northwest

To be made in God's image means that a relationship of close fellowship can exist between God and man that is unlike the relationship of God with the rest of His creation.

It also means we reflect God in our personality and communication.

We need to be in community with others.

Humans are the only part of God's creation to have relationship with Him. We have personalities (like He does) and can communicate at a level that no other created thing can.

My understanding of why God didn't want to them to eat from the tree of life is because they disobeyed Him (and that was why they were punished, disobedience) and no longer had the right or blessing of living forever. Remember that God told them that on the day they ate of the tree of knowledge they would surely die.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

And it is true that we do. Not just right a way. We do have a life, but we all die.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

lambservent, however even though we did not obey God, He still loves us. That is amazing. Truly amazing, isn't it?


Rodric29 profile image

Rodric29 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Amen Michele. Knowing that God still loves us in our weakness and wickedness makes asking for forgiveness and trying again so much easier. Oh, and I will attempt do an article or two from a "Mormon" perspective. I put it in quotations because I will be my perspective with a LDS platform.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Rodric29 I can't wait to read it. I don't think you have to put it in quotations. Well since we are all God's children, and none of us are perfect, we are sort brother's and sister's Does that make any sense? I don't mean that we are clones, or have exactly the same beliefs. Ok, I am just going to shut up.


GabrielMendoza profile image

GabrielMendoza 4 years ago from Yuma, Arizona

Very interesting and good to read. Bless be His name.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

GabrielMendoza thank you for your comment. I appreciate is very much.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Michele,

We are all God's children--brothers and sisters in the spiritual sense. The amazing thing is that we are all unique, but united.

Now, does that make any sense. I am going to quit while I think I am ahead.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry you are fine. As we both know, sometimes we agree and sometimes we do not. But, it will never stop amazing me God still loves us! And We love God!!


PAMITCHRUS 4 years ago

Greetings in that Great Name, That secret name, that name upon his thigh ...

What parent among us doesn't have to send their children off to school so that they can be made complete ??

Or again what parent can hide the fact of evil and self will ??

What person can be said to be complete till they learn both right and wrong then even as our Father always choose the right over the wrong ??

We are being made, growing into, his image... Understand that and understand all things.. Peace to you and grace from our Father who dwells on high and works all things according to his will.. And he wills us to become even as he is. This task is started by him and finished by him thru our Lord and Savior.. Big Brother if you will.. From him we came and thru him we shall as one return, blessed be the name of our Precious Father who sent forth his Son to be the Savior of the world and he did not fail having already cried from the cross "It is Finished " Redemption complete, Restoration forthcoming soon !!!!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hi PAMITCHRUS you have been on hubpages a lot. How are you?


PAMITCHRUS 4 years ago

Doing well thank you !!! Anxiously awaiting the return of our Lord and Savior so we can begin the restoration of all things.. !!!!

Solomon put it best.. Man complicates God's plans for man.. but God's plan is simple.. He's raising a family who one day will be just like him. First we have this issue of self -will to deal with even as we earthly parents deal with self will in our children. Oh my we must learn the hard way.. thus out of the garden we went !!!!

If little zebra's grow up to be big zebra's then what is our destiny ??

Simple, even a caveman could understand it .. :0)..

Keep on keeping on Michele, soon the sheet which blinds the nations will be removed by the one who put it there. Oh my what a day of terror awaits those who speak evil of God, profaning his Holy Name, teaching lies in his name.. Thanks be to God who will have the last word !! God is Love and Love is not hate.. Shelah..


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

PAMITCHRUS Thank you so much for your comment. I do agree with you, praise God, and God bless you!


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Just that simple. God demands obedience. You also should dwell in the fact that in the most magnificent place man could imagine God told them they could have anything except the fruit of 2 trees. Not too much to ask..our loving God made us in His image and gave us everything...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you very much for your comment FSlovenec. The most wonderful tree will be awaiting us in Paradise, and that is a blessing. God did give us everything and will be doing so after the end of this world and the creation of Paradise.

God bless you.


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Yes eternity with Jesus is more than I could ever imagine..


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 4 years ago from Seattle, WA

Technically they left the "East" of Eden. Eden is the blueprint for human imagination, and no one can "leave it." We see this come into view when Cain is sent back to the "East" of Eden in the land of Nod, which means, he did not get to progress to Wisdom in his lifetime. One needs to grasp the four living creatures of Ezekiel to see this, and it is published in the book "The Origin of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz."


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Michele if you read Genesis 3:23 it is written that" God put him out of the Garden of Eden" and in Genesis 3:24 "And so as He drove the man out and posted at the east of the Garden of Eden the The and the Flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the tree of life.

Of course there is land that is east of Eden, that is also written about in the bible.

Oh, and thank you for your comment, it is very cute!


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 4 years ago from Seattle, WA

Thank you! I realized no one has to travel to Africa to be healed by the tree of life, as it is clearly in the center of Eden Gen 2:9. So it can't be a literal place, because in Revelations we learn "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:2" and "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 22:14" The tree of life is in the center of Eden, and the center of Heaven. They mirror each other, like Oz vs Kansas or Heaven vs Earth. The tree of life must be in you, and the cherubim or creatures of Ezekiel block the path to it (Satan operates in the mind process, tempting and diverting one from finding God). Your comment is very cute as well, and it comes from an ancient study before computers were made, before knowledge vastly increased as predicted in Daniel 12:4. If you are comfortable with using medical advice from 200+ years ago, then by all means do not look further into it, but if you prefer to use modern science for medical treatment, it's worth digging deeper with a computer search engine. Seeking to prove those old studies are true and accurate was the first place I began, only to discover countless verses were missing from their thesis. They simply did not have the tools to search the text as we do now. Love this topic, and thank you for your quick response!


Rodric29 profile image

Rodric29 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

I can see the symbalism that you present here Michele R. with your comment to Michele T. I like that symbolism and how it can be philosophical in nature. I also support the idea of an actual Eden that has since been removed and will return. The important thing to remember is that enlightenment is for the seeker and the wise. I can see that you have an enlighted perspective and I like that.

Michele T, months later and still your article is the cats meow. You really have inspired hubs and a great discussion which is why I follow you. You inspired me to give about five hubs related to Adam and Eve--with the same perspective that you offer, but I did it. This is quality stuff. Voted up and shared again.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Michele

You do like the Wizard of Oz, but please remember the bible was written before the Wizard of Oz. The tree of life is no longer on the earth.

By the way, what does medical advice have do do with this hub? Please forgive me, I do not meant to be rude. I information about The Wizard of Oz on Wikipedi but ( for me) was not able to feel that it was better then the bible.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Rodric29 I am going to have to look them up and read them. Thank you for letting me know.


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 4 years ago from Seattle, WA

Thank you Rodric29. Interesting comment Michele T, "the tree of life is no longer on earth." In the bible story of Adam and Eve we have cherubs (we learn later are a mental process, satan is a cherub in Ezekiel 28:14) blocking the path to it. Later we see Cain return to the East of Eden, and in Revelation, declaring anyone following God has the right to eat from it. I am curious why you think the tree of life is not "LIFE?"

As for Oz, it is transposed from the bible tale of Job, in that bible story he was from Uz (Oz). The four characters Dorothy, Lion, Tin Man, and Scarecrow represent the four faces of the creature, as depicted in Ezekiel chapter 1 and 10, as well as Job and his three friends (four faces). Baum, the author of "The Wizard of Oz," drew a map of Eden, and used it in his book "Tik Tok" of Oz. As well as in his stage plays John Dough and the Cherub. We also know by reading the map of Eden, no such place can actually exist on earth. This is due to the four rivers springing forth and going in four directions, then flowing right back into the source. The only blueprint that matches this engineering is the operation of the human heart. It is a source with 4 rivers (of blood), and that is why the link to medical knowledge. It certainly is much more to take in than the space we have here, I will be writing some hubs about it.

It seems a topic of interest to you, as it is for me. Thank you for your kind responses and for your time in sharing. If you have further interest, there are several videos on this youtube site, but this one might be the most effective at showing Eden's blueprint. Enjoy and Happy Hubbing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcBcBpeLCu8


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Michele thank you for that link, I will watch it.

By the way, I know this is stupid, but it is kind of neat we both spell Michele with one L.

Happy hubbing to you also!


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 4 years ago from Seattle, WA

It is super neat Michele that we both spell our name with one "L" my mother told me it is the true French spelling of the name. Thank you for checking out the video, and there are other video's on that site pertaining to the same subject. The bible story has so much to offer us in understanding our human nature, it is also wonderful to find others interested in the same topic to discuss.

Happy Hubbing!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

It is the french spelling, and the reason it was given to me, was because my grandmother and grandfather had to escape France because of Hitler. Anyway, happy hubbing to you also!


ignugent17 profile image

ignugent17 4 years ago

Interesting hub. :-)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you very much for your comment )


samowhamo profile image

samowhamo 4 years ago

Hi Michele

I have written an article that you might be interested in click here.

http://samowhamo.hubpages.com/hub/Did-Snakes-Have-...

Let me know what you think. :)


sunchet 3 years ago

From Genesis 3:22 and the context of the entire Bible, it is clear that God did not allow Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life AFTER they had sinned because DEATH was a necessary consequence of sin in order for God to redeem the soul from eternal death by blood atonement while still in the body - through the blood of bulls and goats in the OT and once and for all through the blood of Jesus in the NT..., Romans 10 says that the sting of death is sin, and from OT and NT we know that there are some sins that can only be justly paid for by physical death (e.g. murder)...

If Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life after sinning (the sin being their disobedience, rather than the knowledge of good and evil), they would have become unredeemable by death, blood atonement and also by the death of Christ, and thus have suffered the same fate as Satan and his fallen host of angels/demons...so we need to thank God for His redemption of our fallen souls that was only made possible through death entering into the world...


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 3 years ago from Seattle, WA

Interesting comment sunchet! I discovered God "commanded" Adam before Eve was made to eat from all the other trees, and he did not eat. "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" Gen 2:16 I ponder why the whole of theology never mentions that fact. Then I see Adam is standing with Eve as she is tempted by the serpent God made, which I deduce, is because Adam was refusing to eat as commanded.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

sunchet That was an amazing comment! We do need to thank God for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. He did allow us to have redemption of our fallen souls.

Thank you so much for your comment.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

The Answer is

you can cut it any way you want but the cause of God putting them out of the garden was because of DISOBEDIENCE. The reason it was required for God to put them out of the garden once they disobeyed was to make it possible for Jesus mission of redemption to take place. If they had eaten of the Tree of Life mankind would be stuck forever in the fallen condition that were now in. So to fulfill Gods plan He had to remove them from the Tree of Life and guard it from them in order to fulfill His original plan of redemption in due time.

So the answer to the question is-- so they could not eat of the Tree of Life and make it impossible for Jesus to come and fulfill His mission on earth.


royblizzard profile image

royblizzard 3 years ago from Austin / Leander, Texas

This is an interesting hub. You would have most of the answers to your questions if you could read the story in Hebrew as it reads quite differently. Just take the two trees, one was planted by God and the other one wasn't. They were two Covenant Markers. When Man ate of the wrong one they became bound by blood to HaSatan-not a snake by the way, but the word actually means the enchanter, it just evolved to mean a snake later. You may want to catch a blog that I've been slowly working on in my "Spare Time" which hasn't been much lately. Keep up the great work. http://church-exodus.blogspot.com/


Rodric29 profile image

Rodric29 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Very good Celafoe. I agree with you one hundred percent on your interpretation. God had a plan all along for Adam and Eve when they partook of the fruit. He knew it would happen so he had a plan set up through Christ to redeem them from their fallen state. You taught a good lesson is a short span.

Also, Royblizzard, I like what you wrote also. I am not in agreement with the doctrine, but I like the notion and will check out your blog. This is a good hub and it has inspired me to write at least 5 hubs on the topic.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Rodric29 I am sorry I have not been on hubpages for so long. I am very happy you are going to write hubs about it.


anonymous 3 years ago

The Bible and the God of the Bible are disturbing on several levels. On a philosophical level and on a mental level and on a moral level its disturbing. Why did God drive Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden? I can give several reasons why and it doesn't make God look good. Jealousy is one reason. Hes so jealous that He cannot stand for anyone or anything else to be like Him. Irrationality is another reason as this God behaves in an irrational manner. And most of all cruelty and spite. This God of the Bible is the cruelest and most punitive being imaginable. He PUNISHES PUNISHES PUNISHES and His punishments are monstrously cruel inhumane and BEYOND what we can imagine. This experiment with Adam and Eve was ensnarement entrappment. The creation was set up to be screwed by Adam and Eve's sin. Let's see. We have free will Satan Adam and Eve a forbidden fruit and a talking tempting snake. It's a recipe and its the ingredients for disaster tragedy failure. It was a pitfall. What was a talking tempting snake doing in the blessed Garden of Eden? Who created that snake? Who allowed that snake to enter the Garden? God is irresponsible and negligent right from the start. This is like allowing a pedophile alone with your kids. Note that in God's initial warning to Adam and Eve He says nothing about sin diseases violence starvation hurricanes tsusnamis wars genocides etc that would result if Adam and Eve disobeyed by eating the forbidden fruit. God never bothers telling them in His initial warning how painful it can be to die from diseases poisons starvation drowning etc. God never bothers telling them that ALL future unborn humans woukd become sinners. Only AFTER Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit does God decide to curse and punish the ENTIRE creation along with Adam and Eve. This is irrational insane unfair unjust unkind unwise uncouth unreasoning unforgiving and CRUEL. This is not love. This is not mercifulness. And He refuses to forgive Adam and Eve and He went right ahead with cursing and punishing the whole creation. Its a travesty and it makes me angry. The world lost paradise and gained a hell because two ignorant humans ate a forbidden fruit 6000 to 30000 years ago. Where is the justice in this? Why conduct such a dangerous cruel destructive experiment? Why must Adam and Eve's sin be passe down to ALL future unborn humans? Why does Nature have to be cursed? Why do innocent animals have to suffer and die? This story of God punishing the enrire creation for Adam and Eve's sin in Genesis Chapter 3 is the first recorded instance of God behaving in a cruel manner. God is cruel from Genesis to Revelation. Diseases centipedes birth defects miscarriages mass starvation sharks crocodiles jellyfish intense cold intense heat hurricanes tsunamis earthquakes crimes wars genocides pollution etc. The world is a horror movie all because two people ate a forbidden fruit eons ago. Is this not absurd? Is this not insane? Is this not a travesty? Is this not stupid? Plus the majority of people are ending up in hell to be tortured forever with Satan in the next life and its all the price we have to pay for Adam and Eve eating a forbidden fruit eons ago. This is beyond stupid. Its beyond insanity. We worship a cruel God. Some blame Satan and demons for this mess. If that's the case then why does God allow Satan and demons the freedom to cause all this evil cruelty misery and havoc? Something is amiss with this God. Im a physically ugly mentally ill guy and I don't have a girlfriend. I suffer from endless unrelieved loneliness day in and day out and year in and year out. I have to suffer because of what Adam ad Eve did thousands of years before I was even born. This is cruel unfair unjust and inhumane. And millions of people and millions of animals have to suffer from diseases and starvation because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden apple. Cruel and inhumane is this God of the Bible. Its an embarrassment.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

ananymous-- sop hiding and come out into the light and maybe someone will take you seriously. the light will expose the errors in your understanding. that is if you really have a desire to properly understand-- to see the light.


anonymous 3 years ago

Dear Celafoe we have interacted before on your hubsite and on other hubsites. Im sorry if my comments about God and the Bible offend you. You see a long time ago I used to be a Fundamentalist Christian like you but something happened to weaken my Christian faith. Im still a Christian but one whose faith is weakened. I coin the term Deficient Theism to describe myself. I believe in a deficient God. Atheism is wrong. But traditional theism is also not totally right. I believe there is some kind of God but He or it is deficient in either goodness or power or wisdom. Maybe God or the creator is irrational or insane. Maybe God is blind. Not visually blind but mentally blind or morally blind. My reasons for believing in a deficient God are because of evil and suffering in the world. Something is AMISS with this God if He has to continue allowing eons of evil sin suffering and death. A lot of the Bible is disturbing. Doesn't the Bible itself say in Isahaia Chapter 45 verse 7 that God creates light and darkness and makes peace and creates DISASTERS. The King James Bible says God creates EVIL. This probably does not mean sin but means inflicting misery. Its probably referring to Natural Evil or Physical Evil such as cancer or tsunamis. Its still disturbing. If blame is going to be thrown on Satan and demons then WHY is God allowing these evil entities to cause all this evil cruelty misery and havoc? Only in the book of Job does Satan cause physical evil torture and killing. Satan killed a few dozen people and killed an unknown number of animals(Job's livestock) and inflicted a horrible disease on Job in the Bible which is pretty bad. But God in the Bible killed MILLIONS of people and killed millions to billions of animals. Reading the Bible objectively BOTH God and Satan are more or less to blame for having a screwed up world and BOTH of them are extremely cruel. Maybe its just Satan and demons who are to blame for evil and suffering. If so why does God allow these evil entities the power to corrupt an torment? The reason Im anonymous is because its a dangerous world full of trolls and criminals and I fear for my personal safety. Thank you for reading.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

anonymous, I also have a lot of problems. I have epilepsy and have had 2 surgeries for it, but still have it. I have taken so much medication that I am now having severe renal failure. It has been diagnosed twice. I am going back to the epilepsy unit at Mt Carmel West in Columbus Ohio. To see if there is anyway of controlling my seizures without killing my kidneys. There has been a lot of pain in my life. Both of my parents died suddenly. My daughter was born with Autism, but I love her so much, I thank God for her every day. Life hurts, but I still thank God for giving us his only Son.

No, the world is not perfect, and you are correct some of us are in pain. But, when I thank God for Jesus. He forgave us for our sins. I am imperfect also. When I feel horrible, about having epilepsy and kidney's that are dying, I try to think of the good things that have happened in life. There are always good things that have happened. Bad and good. But, I do understand you. I really need to keep the good that has happened in my life close to my heart, I hope that makes sense.


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 3 years ago from San Francisco, CA

It is actually very simple Adam and Eve disobeyed God. 100's of times in the Bible obedience is spoken as a requirement. God has a perfect life for us: Seek first the Kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. God wants us to have a wonderful life we simply need to obey Him.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

FSlovenec I believe what you wrote. God loves us so much. You are very correct.

Thank you so much for your comment,


Jackie Lynnley profile image

Jackie Lynnley 3 years ago from The Beautiful South

Very interesting question. I would love to find a study guide on this where someone know the different languages for helping us to understand. Any study always leaves me with more questions even if I am satisfied with my answer, but that is good I am sure. ^


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thanks Jackie, I always have more questions also:)


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 3 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that is the reason for them to leave paradise. In leaving paradise we now have all the bad in the world which did not exist in the garden. So they did not just walk out of "a garden" they walked out of perfection in every way. This was a BIG DEAL. God above all wants us to obey His commands and do what pleases Him.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I know, God gave us perfection, love and His Only Begotten Son. But, so many of us just turn our backs on Him. It was a big deal then and is still a big deal. The most amazing thing is Forgiveness! God is wonderful and I love Him!

I love Him!


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 3 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Michele you are so right His forgiveness and Grace are never ending. How can He love us? We will know "Love" when we meet Jesus face to face He is Love! Thanks again for the Hub


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

note: they were forbidden to eat of ONLY ONE tree in the garden, just onthe fruit of one tree out of all that was there


adsfsgs 3 years ago

God could NOT have been saying that man has become like one of us to the angels because angels are not like God what-so-ever. God is really talking to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Don't be interpreting this different if you cannot properly back up your story. Thank you and God bless.


seeking 3 years ago

In the first few chapters of Genesis, there is a difference between "God" and "LORD God". They're different beings, aren't they? They give 2 different creation accounts. God's account is complete. The LORD God's account begins after some things had already been created, and it was from an earthly perspective. Plus, it's in a different order. I believe Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible quotes many... God, Satan, people... I think God uses the Bible to reveal more than most of us realize.


seeking 3 years ago

One quick example of the difference between the two: "God" saw all He created was very good, but the only thing the "LORD God" said was good was gold in part of the land. Moses made a distinction between the two in the first 5 books, though it is right to point out that when God was giving Abram his new name, the sun had gone down and he was in a deep sleep. I sure could be wrong but it looks to me like the 2 beings are going by "God" until the scripture says the sun came up on the earth.(Why did David number the people after God told him not to. In one place it says the "Lord" told him to yet in another place it says Satan enticed him. Samuel/Chronicles) As for reading the prophets who used the term "Lord"? Jesus lights up what God said, doesn't He?


charilyn 3 years ago

Adam would be still unhappy in paradise if he were alone?


Imran 2 years ago

I have a different take completely. Adam (and Eve) represents many things on different levels. At one level, it is how inanimate matter evolves to animate matter, then to conciousness, and then finally, God-consciousness. Man is different from the animals in that he possesses God-conciousness. Like God, Adam and Eve possess thought and abstraction and can manifest that thought through actions and the making of things that had no physical form until made (perhaps the reference to created in God's image and being like him); and Man has the capacity to love, anger, forgive, know, etc. just like God.

At another level, it is the story of free-will. The ability to choose from right and wrong, and then act on it. Again, unlike animals, man is the being who can choose of his own free-will, contemplate future consequences, and then reflect back on them.

There are other aspects that I can go into as well...


robert mrvelj 2 years ago

I think humans got knowledge from GOD of course and maybe a little from LUCIFER (satan) as for rebellion it was dark but it wasnt the worst thing that could have happened in existance and the fact that LUCIFER wanted to rule proved that he wanted to have independance not be serving GOD forever i wouldnt have hated LUCIFER for wanting to rule over something if i were GOD i would have given him a chance to rule and lead many i would think that LUCIFER wanted to prove he could stand on his own two feet no rely on GOD or want GOD to bail him out if did a mistake and about making mistakes humans have been doing it many times in history few humans are even getting corrupted by desire for power and greed for riches or money i think GOD would let us have free will if testing us if we could resist temptation and try to be believing that thigns will turn out better soon even if it looks dark

and i would think LUCIFER would be testing us too if we would want to continue fight for what we believe or if we want to give up if we would chose to live or to end our lives because we think the world is cruel and

about going pain and hardship LUCIFER does know about it better than anyone i wouldnt be completly surprised if LUCIFER wanted us to feel little pain and have some hardship to test us if we can stay faithful until the end fight for what we believe not judge everyone too quickly just because one looks bad or if he even testing husbands and wifes if they could be faithful to their wifes/husbands if some could avoid commiting evil actions life is sometimes hard i think LUCIFER would say that and even GOD agreeing one shouldnt commit evil actions because of anger or fear jealousy even pain LUCIFER does know how it is going through pain and misery i would think LUCIFER understands us humans more than GOD does but i do not hate GOD i will not stop having little faith in him i know im not the best christian but i try to be

appreciating that im not in hell and hoping i wont end up there because of something i have made sure to not do more mistakes i have already done some one of the biggest mistakes of my life when i in moment of uncontrolled anger said words : i wished GOD was in chains in a dungeon and another time when i accidently spat in a church i was a teenager then i wasnt aware of everything and not htought about it but i

now know better to not kick GOD and never kick his son JESUS maybe JESUS would have understood how LUCIFER felt when was in lake of fire i would have wished LUCIFER and his fellow angels would have been free from hell and be healed of pain free to live on earth forever trying to start over be happy enjoying life even settling down or help some as long not commiting evil actions i would have said theres nothing wrong with letting fallen angels live among us and even try interacting with some of us mortal humans if like female fallen angel and male human fell in love and then raised kids otgether i would feel happy if she could bury the past about hell and moving on its important to try to hold on until the very end not try suicide because it seems so depressing how it is right now for example and some things wouldnt be evil unless GOD would have said so if LUCIFER would agree and i think incest isnt evil amny of you just swallowing the lies about it and some painting bad picture to have incest look like evil and try scaring many of you to not try i do not think GOD wouldnt hate the two human sibilings for having0 incest not sending them to hell for that incest might seem awkward for many at first but you could get past that and some things shouldnt be declared evil and wrong not even illegal i think if for example 16 year-old boy and 23 year-old had sex and they loved eachother so much i wouldnt wanted to arrest them because of the woman being 8 years older age diffrance isnt evertything it might be little awkward with age diffrance even 15 years but it shouldnt stop you

goverments just wants to force things on you so they can sexually girls and women specially wifes messing up their minds/brains with too much sex and lust sometimes it can make one blinded and too much alcohol can blind some of you too if you held much anger and pain and drank alcohol that would make you run away from your problems instead of facing your problems or letting out anger if had a doll you could have hit and screamed at so you could feel little easier and listent

to some soothing music even trying yoga or going to spa there are many ways to calm yourselves and try to hang in there and about boys from 15 to 17 falling in love with older women it wouldnt be wrong if like 15 year-old boy got a love confession from a female neighbour who would be like 22 years old if they spent some time together talking playing and other stuff i would say they could have trusted eachother no reason to be afraid if they wouldnt want to hurt eachother despite what many says or thinks what matters is whats inside your heart even

in incest it wouldnt be wrong even if aunt loved her nephew so much or mother and son had incest or mother and daughter or younger brother and older sister having incest non if it is evil or wrong as long non are married if one is married then you shouldnt have incest with your relative it would still count as adultrey and i wouldnt have wanted you

to that specially to cheat on someone you care for so much and you shouldnt ever try cheating specially if you being in love with your brother for example you should know that cheating could hurt your brother much more than normal boyfriends would be gay or not gay

being gay or being lesbian isnt evil and wrong either dosent matter if

both are of same gender try listen to your hearts not rationalize these things i mentioned if some try saying its evil thats all bye GOD BLESS YOU AND MAY LUCIFER BLESS YOU TOO.


Michele Rubatino profile image

Michele Rubatino 2 years ago from Seattle, WA

Through the lens of unconditional love, Adam represents Semen, and Eve represents Egg, the two become literally one flesh. No such thing as gay at this level. Each human being is the union of a mother and a father. God does not hate gay people, he created them as they are, the problem is the text has been translated from a view of "conditional love" rather than "unconditional love." God is inside the seed, and the bible is clear, God is not divided, and that means the God in me can't see or care for the God in you! It's not two God's, it is God's omnipotence and how he is every where at all times. Being ejected from Eden is the same as being ejected from our mother's womb! Eden is the diagram of human imagination, published from many works dating back to 390 BC Ezekiel, and even further through the indian traditions. Genesis to Revelation is a tale of the lifetime of a single human being. Being born not knowing God, which is sin (not living with skill), the illusions of this world die on the cross, and then we see the kingdom come down from God and see the vastness of the real meaning of eternal life. That is to say we are eternally here in a process of birth and death. As for Lucifer, he is only one direction of four we know as Satan's kingdom, the ruler of darkness. That kingdom came into existence when God went into the seed, and hid his light. Every time a seed opens it is the same as God saying "Let there be light," in the sense he has just broken off a piece of himself to come in the form of matter, the flesh. We know this because matter can't create matter, that is your sofa won't reproduce another one while you are at work, God is not in it. But my view is from "unconditional love," understanding it's a tale that happens within, and therefore is not the stage I see when looking out of my eyes. Genesis 6 actually says it's taking place inside "imagination." Applying our stage of imagination to the material world is what needs to be worked out. This is technically provable, in the sense we all witness it, everywhere, I like to call it self evident. However, this is my theory after several years of studying the text without religious interpretations.

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