The Trinity True Or False?

The Trinity is something that has been taught in churches for a very long time, but the question is are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit the same? For many people are not sure, things are confusing. One of my hubs was about things that were hidden in the Vatican. Writings that no one was allowed to see. Another thing that is interesting, is the Trinity was recognized until 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea held by the Roman Emperor Constantine

There are also scriptures in the bible with seem to contradict each other, but I am only going to write down a few. The first ones will about no Trinity, and the next ones will be supporting the Trinity.

John 15:1 Jesus says " I am the vine and my Father is the Gardener.

Matthew 25:26 Jesus says " No one knows about that hour, not even the Angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I, will give the right to sit down with me on my throne with my Father on his throne.

Now there are a lot of scriptures that have been written about Jesus and His Father, and here are a few that people believe define the Trinity.

1John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit. This is a confusing verse. Which one is Jesus? Why are three the same as one?

John 10:30 Jesus says " My Father and I are One" This verse is also confusing because it does not contain a third. So, why is it a Trinity?

Genesis 1:26 God said let us make man in our own image, after our own likeness. We know God created the earth, so why did God say us? Is he speaking to Jesus, or to Himself?

This one confuses me the most because it is on a website that teaches there is no Trinity, and a Website that teaches there is a Trinity. Matthew 3:16-17 And when Jesus was baptized and went straightway out of the water, and lo he saw a Spirit like a dove, and a Voice came down from Heaven saying this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.

Even if the Trinity is true or not, the bible warns us many times that the devil deceives us, and we must beware.

2 Timothy 3:13 While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Do you believe the Trinity is true?

  • Yes
  • No
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Charles Hilton 4 years ago

There is enough confusion surrounding the Bible---and enough contradictions and inconsistencies within it---that the devil doesn't have to deceive us. His job was made easier by the Bible itself. lol

Then again, I think the Bible is mythological and full of error, and its main characters(including Jesus) are archetypal and based on other myths.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Charles, I think it is mostly what is hidden in the Vatican. Which is why I wrote a hub about it. But, I am going to try to stay focused on this one. Well if anyone comments on it.


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teaches12345 4 years ago

The trinity has always been a hard concept to explain. The best I can do would be to liken it as unto an apple. You have the core (God), flesh (Jesus) and skin (Holy Spirit) all in one but seperate. Your scripture references are good starts in understanding the trinity relationship. To discuss this further would require days. Thanks for the challenge.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

Sorry, Michele; I'll have to go and read that other hub---after I get back from the gym. lol


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment teaches. The Trinity has always been something that is hard for me to understand. That is why I wrote this hub. Well that is why I write some of the hubs I do write. People explain things to me.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

lol, thanks Charles, have a good workout


KevinC9998 profile image

KevinC9998 4 years ago

Michele: Although I am a Christian, I ususally do not like reading religious related hubs. However you did catch my attention with the reference to the Roman Emperor Constantine. As far as being confused, I wouldn't worrry about it as you are not alone! It was a good read and voted up, nice job, Kevin


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Perspycacious 4 years ago from Today's America and The World Beyond

Another scripture for this dicussion is when Jesus tells his disciples that he will send them a Comforter (The Holy Ghost) and except he leave, The Comforter could not come. The function of The Holy Ghost is to testify of Christ, and (perhaps) to help us do the same. If Christ and his Father (God) were not distinct, the "only God knows the end times," which you quoted, would make no sense, nor would Christ's exclamation on the cross make sense when he asked "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Three distinct, with one purpose (to bring to pass the eternal life of man)and one is a personage of spirit that it might be in-dwelling as men and women live righteously. That is my "take" on the questions your Hub addresses.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you again Kevin. I do write a lot about religious things, as you probably have seen. It is things that have been hidden from us that bothers me. You don't have to read it, I just want the pope to open the vatican.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That does make sense to me. The "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" makes much more sense to me. Because I have never felt there was a Trinity. Thank you for your comment.


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TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Michelle,

Good hub girl, but to be honest, I almost wish I hadn't read it. Now I have to make a decision on whether to walk around what Charles Hilton said, or address it. I think I will do both. Unless he's more of an expert than me on the Bible, I wish he would say, "In my opinion ..." as opposed to making a statement as fact. I will say that there is much confusion surrounding the Bible, and there are what appear to be contradictions, That's what happens when you read the Bible as opposed to study the Bible. I don't think I qualify as an expert, but I do have a background in cosmology, and a little tiny degree in Divinity, and the more theological education you get, the more sense the Bible makes sense. Problem is that most folks don't really know what the Bible says, and rely on people to tell them what it says. You have to know a little bit about the life and times of when the book was written so that you can understand what is figurative and what is literal. Enough said ... What Charles has is good enough for him, and that's all that matters.

Jesus made the distinction between him and the father quite often, but he wasn't the full incarnate of God until he ascended. Having said that, I've studied under some of the best theological minds alive today, and while we all have a nice quick explanation of the Trinity, nobody really gets it. Not really. When you think about it, we all understand that Jesus was tortured, beaten and hung on a cross to pay the debt for our sins, but nobody completely understands salvation. We just accept it.

This was a great little hub, and I should have let the Charles thing go. I came here to read and not give a lecture on Divinity. I'm probably not as smart as I think anyhow! lol

Up, awesome, and interesting!

jim


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Jim. You do know a lot and I appreciate your information very much. And you are very smart.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

@TheManWithNoPants...

I take no offense at your references to me and I respect your opinion. That being said, I'm an ex-fundamentalist Baptist and I have "studied" the Bible since I was fourteen, in addition to having a Bachelors Degree in History. That being said, for me and those who share my views, the contradictions and inconsistencies I referred to ARE fact, and not mere opinion. It doesn't matter if some divinity schools rationalize the contradictions in the bible. That's their job, depending on whether the school is fundamentalist or more liberal.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)


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douggy 4 years ago

If we derive knowledge through reading and understanding some concepts, then the trinity is a purely false idea regardless of whether there are those passages which seem to be supporting it. Meaningfulness and sensibleness are the criteria we use to say something read is understandable. Understanding something invites one to believe that thing. No one can believe the trinity.


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TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Charles,

You seem like a gentleman, and you're right, we will no doubt agree to disagree. Of course I'm aware of the more obvious places in the Bible that appear to contradict one another, but it's definitely wrong to say that it's a theologians job to justify anything. That might be the job of some seminary schools. Never trusted those suckers. Good theology is nothing more than asking some great questions.

There are what appear to be contradictions in the Bible, but only if you isolate these things. The divine message of the Bible is totally consistent, especially if you consider how many books there are, the number of authors, and the amount of time it covered. I've enjoyed some great debates with some great people. I take debating pretty serious for the wrong reasons I'm sure. Even though I love Jesus, I'm still stuck with the giant sucking ego, and a competitive nature that is somewhat off the charts.

The Bible is a very personal book. To some people, the book has little or no validity. It doesn't measure up to what their intellect demands. I had a life experience as a child and one is adult that validated the Bible for me. I guess you could say that I knew things that I didn't understand and couldn't explain. When I started going to church and listening to the preacher, while skimming through the Bible at home, things were not passing the intellectual test for me. In fact, the more the preacher talked, the more screwed up things got for me. So I got away from that and started looking for my own answers. I already knew that the Bible was right on, I just needed to prove it. I was in my early 40s, when I jumped right into the middle of divinity. All that studying and what have I accomplished? I can debate the sharpest atheist, you can throw at me and push him or her to the wall coughing up mud babies and parallel universes. The reality is that I don't know much more than before I picked up the books, but during the journey, what I already knew and believed in slowly measured up to my intellect.

In any case Charles, I don't debate theology anymore. I finally figured out that converting people wasn't my job. It's God's. Now I debate politics. lol

Thanks for getting back. You're cool man.

jim


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

@MWNP...

I've told myself that I'm not going to debate theology anymore, but, I tend to let myself get pulled in. Debating such deeply personal and emotionally charged issues takes a lot out of a person. Especially since my conservative supervisor at work loves to have his toady goad me into political debates so they can tag-team me(they're still outnumbered, lol). By the end of a day of debating politics and religion at work and home, I'm worn out and frazzled.

And since learning several months ago of a study done by---I think Dartmouth---where people were asked if they would change their opinions on religion or politics if someone proved beyond a doubt their opinions to be wrong, and the overwhelming majority of the respondents said they wouldn't change their opinions, even if someone had evidence that their opinions were in error. Which didn't surprise me at all, because debate is a sport for most people and peoples' self image tends to be wrapped up in "winning" or "losing", whether in sports, play or debate.

My sole purpose for debate, however, is for a mutual exchange of ideas and information to provide the basis for a mutual discovery of truth, or at least a progression towards it. So, in that sense, I hate "debate" and much prefer "discussion." Debate is about winning, whereas discussion is about learning. Gawd, how I wish our politicians would adopt that mindset! If everybody had that approach, the world would be a much better place.

You seem like a pretty cool gentleman yourself and thanks for the awesome response.

Chuck


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hello Charles, I understand you disagree with TheManWithNoPants, can you tell me anything about the contradictions in the bible that tell you what is true or not true? It is what helps the understanding. Since you have knowledge and understanding, please talk to me, besides I have a head :)


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

duggy, I do understand what you are saying. Many people have told me to just " Accept what you don't understand because it is what God is" I still cannot accept is. Thank you for your comment very much.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment ManWithNoPants, politics now that is a different story. They love money, God loves us. Enough said.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hello Chuck, now that is a difference between me and a lot of people. I have changed my opinion when I have learned a lot. People who do not change not matter what they learn, even in politics are to me, well, what word can I use..


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Sparklea 4 years ago from Upstate New York

Hi Michele, What an interesting hub which has produced alot of great comments! I am a Christian, and I have read the Bible all my life. It's amazing how a verse will take on an incredible meaning, suddenly, when I have read it so many times already and haven't noticed. You brought out alot of points to ponder in your great hub. For myself, I've always pictured myself as a branch attached to the Vine of Jesus (I am the vine you are the branch)and believe that every breath I take is the Spirit of God breathing out and manifesting through me. Since Jesus said, "I and the Father are One, I wonder if the SPirit in me is BOTH God and Jesus? All I know is that I BELIEVE in His/Their Presence no matter what. Period. I love a mystery, and the Bible is a very mysterious account of the One who saved me from myself. Thank you! Voted UP! Blessings, Sparklea :)


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Sparklea. What you have said is true. You can read a verse and the bible over and over and suddenly it changes your heart.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

Oy vey, Michelle...you want me to go into all that here on this comment thread? I do have a life, ya know! lol

In fact, I cancelled my Facebook and Twitter accounts last year, and MySpace and two other accounts before that for the same reason---too much drama and way too much time spent on the computer, neglecting other areas of my life that need my attention.

Like I mentioned in my last comment, most people wouldn't change their opinion even in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, so, what's the point? But, I see from your hubs and your comments here that you're an open-minded person.

If I decide to immerse myself in the Bible contradiction discussion, I will post hubs highlighting specific contradictions---and let everyone else debate it. Personally and truthfully, I'm tired of the debate. lol

I know what I need to know in order to make informed conclusions and that's what matters for me.

Now, back to my real job. lol

Have a wonderful day! :)

BTW---love your new profile pic. ;-)


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thanks Charles, your comment was very nice :)


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TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Charles,

I agree totally. Debate can become somewhat of a blood sport, especially when it comes to politics and religion. The subject goes beyond the gray matter and into the heart. Both opponents are in a position of having something not only that they believe, but that they want to believe, taken from them and things become very defensive. Discussion is a much better way to go, especially when the two people respect one another.

Michelle,

You did a good job here, and as time goes along, I'm sure. Charles and I will be discussing the Bible. I like guys like him because they have a rare commodity called good manners, which is a rare and valuable commodity these days. I'll discuss matters of divinity with you anytime. I'm still learning myself.

Jim


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Jim, The reason I put up so many hubs about religion is that I want to learn so much. It may keep people away from these hubs and I understand that. I do study the bible, but also want to know what other people have learned too. Many others have knowledge I do not have.


Drtruthman profile image

Drtruthman 4 years ago from Harlingen, Texas

Michele my dear friend, what can I say....WOW great Hub as usual. I am just going to say you can stir the proverbial theological pot. If nothing else, it certainly draws interest and comment. There is so much here that would take far longer to explain than there is room or time to do. The doctrine of the trinity is a late and not early concept of the church......not the Bible.Just like the TERM Rapture, the TERM Trinity is NO where in the Bible....in any language. On the other hand, the multiplicity of the omnipresence and omnipotence of God is there. Basically your thoughts on the Secrets of the Vatican or Hidden Archives of the Vatican has allot to do with this. The Old Testament basically accepts a polytheistic view of a monotheistic God; an example is, Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning gods created the heavens and ........." Well, most people only think they know the rest. They don't. According to most Christian Historians, the Catholic Church "developed the doctrine of the tri-une Godhead or trinity to make Christianity more "palatable" to the western pagans of the lands, the Roman Empire (which they now controlled)was invading and make for a smoother transition from paganism to Christianity. That's all for now. More to come on my own sights and Hubs. I voted UP all across. Great job. Lee


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Lee. once again we agree. You do teach me a lot, and one of the things I can't help doing is putting hubs up about God, the Bible and Jesus. Right now I think some are sort of avoiding these topics and that is ok, it is probably annoying people. Same topic over and over. What is interesting to me now is I have been studying the Koran. It is starting to get scary. I was wrong in the last hub. There is much more to write about it. A lot more, but it is going to take time. There is much more to research for that one.

Oh, and by the way, thank you again for your comment.


Drtruthman profile image

Drtruthman 4 years ago from Harlingen, Texas

I look forward to your thoughts on the Koran. I too have read and studied. Interesting but scary. Thanks for your response.

Lee


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is going to take a little time. It starts ok, but then changes over time. Very interesting.


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michiganman567 4 years ago from Michigan

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word is Jesus. It tells us that in John 1:14. "The Word was made flesh"

So we have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as one God from that verse. That is the trinity. The only way to get around it is if you delete that verse like many of the new perverted Bibles have done. That verse also appears in several Bibles that predate the KJV.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment michiganman567. It is terrible that they take words away from bibles. Why don't they wan't us to know the truth? That is another reason I want the Vatican to open it's vault. They never will. I think they want to keep the truth from us, but I think they are keeping the truth from us. So, if they are not following what Jesus told his Apostles to do, teaching people of all the lands, aren't they committing a sin? They should open the vault and let everyone what is in it. Thank you again for your comment.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Michele:

I was raised as a Baptist and became a Catholic about 20 years ago. I am not an expert on the Bible. However, I have been finding lately that a lot of people are trying to attach literal meanings to various passages in the Bible and are either intentionally or unintentionally trying to create confusion. Everyone knows that no one set down to write the Bible. It is a collection of stories contributed by many authors. Some may been the result of divine inspiration, others may just be historical and parts may just be stories used in ancient times to explain what people did not understand.

The issue is faith. It is not whether you believe the Bible. The issue is do you believe in God as the supreme being, Jesus as his son and our savior and the holy spirit as the force that guide us in our lives.

I took a Bible class. The teacher was a convert to Catholicism and was working on his PhD in philosophy. We were discussing the story regarding the snake, Eve and the Garden of Eden. He asked the class if the snate use the truth or lies to convince her to take the Apple. Some members of the class said thee was some truths and some lies. So he said, that the snake used half-truths to achieve his goal.

As an old newspaper reporter, I could not let that pass by. I remarked that the truth is an absolute, anything less than the whole truth is a lie. He agreed and someone in the back of the room said I must be a lawyer.

My point is that man has been debating and will continue to debate the scriptures. It all boils down to the passage that states, depending on which translation you are reading, "For God So Love The World that he gave his only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

That was said before any organized churches existed, before the first Bible was assembled. There are contradictions, confusing statements and inconsistencies in the Bible. The Bible was written by Man. God gives the promise of salvation and everlasting life.

I have seen my share of miracles and have gotten through many tough spots because of prayer. Because God is God and it was man that tried to explain his place in our lives there will be inconsistencies and confusion. Life is too short to get lost in the details. I think John 3:16 says it all.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you very much for your comment Larry, it is very good and I agree with it. I also have had miracles happen in my life. John 3:16 is wonderful and true. I Thank God for that because I needed it very much.


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viquar 4 years ago from Hyderabad, India

I am not a Christian, but have read the Bible and continue to research on comparative religion in order to understand why conflict exists among religions.

As it is stated in the Gospel of John,

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (verse 14:28)

In this verse, Jesus clearly compares himself to God, who is greater than him. Logically, you can only compare two things when they are "different".

I think this is enough for us to conclude.

Moreover I would take the liberty to quote a verse from Quran, which may put some light onto this discussion.

"Those who say, 'God is the Messiah, son of Mary,' have defied God. The Messiah himself said, 'Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are." (Qur'an 5:72-75)


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Viquar. It is perfect. If we follow the ten commandments, the most important one states in part " Thou shall have no other gods before me" That means a lot to me. Only one. No trinity. Only one God.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Michele,

Believing in the trinity is not believing in three gods. Believing in the trinity means that the One true God can take three forms, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Anyone who is trying to put a physical rational to that concept is fighting a losing battle. It is a matter of Faith. God is God, Jesus is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit is the essence of God.

I was once in Mass and we had a new priest and he talked about a classmate in the seminary who was taking an oral exam and his question was to explain the holy trinity.

He stood there and thought and finally said, "It's a mystery," and sat down. He had to stay an extra semester. But it shows that there are somethings we have to accept on Faith. Catholics are notorious for trying to find details to argue about, as our Baptists. Catholics and Protestants do not agree in the perpetual virginity of Mary. They do agree that Mary was the mother of Jesus. In one part of the Bible there is reference to Jesus and his brothers. Protestants assume these were the offspring of Jesus. In the Baptsit Church we called everybody brother, at least on Sunday. When Jesus is on the cross, he turned to the disciple that he loved and instructed him to take care of Mary. If Mary had other biological children, why didn't they take care of her.

My point is that it really makes do difference. Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and gave Birth to Jesus, who preached the word of God and died on the cross so that those who believed in God would have everlasting life.

I do not know why we as Christians, be it Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, or whatever have to quibble over details. Yes there are inconsistencies in the Bible. The original writings have been translated hundreds of time and words have different meaning.

Remember when gay meant being happy and not being a homosexual.

A hundred years from now someone is going to read something that said a certain person was a gay all of his life. Will the reader be able to tell if the person was a happy individual all the time or was a homosexual. Maybe not the best analogy to use, but it supports my point.

One more example of how words can be confused. Many years ago my editor and I were covering a city council meeting, where someone had given a report about a project that generated some debate. One councilman said we did not have to accept the report as holy, or was it wholly. My editor and I argued over this. Knowing the councilman and the fact that he put the word as in front of holy, I think he was saying that the report did not have to be accepted as the absolute final answer. My editor, who won, since he was the editor, preferred wholly, meaning that the report did not have to accepted as the complete answer.

Finally, the 10 Commandments were written before the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. You accept God and you accept Jesus. The 10 commandments say that thy shall not commit adultery. I think reasonable people know what that means, but some scholars said adultery only occurred when a woman cheated on her husband. Men got a free pass. I do not think that is what god intended.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I understand that words can be confusing, but many are not confusing. Why does it say in Revelation, that Jesus sits on the throne next to his father? Rev. 3:21

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. There are also many more


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Yes they are, but we are talking about God, who can do anything, including being two beings, the father and the son at the same time. When we try to put the laws of physics, grammar, historical timelines to our faith in God, we distract ourselves. I use to be a newspaper reporter. I made a living looking for inconsistencies in what politicians said were going to do and what they did. I did not have the faith to believe they would always do the right thing.

I went to Sunday School as a Baptist Child, I could name all of books in the Bible. I had to write an eulogy for a friend that died too soon. Part of that euolgy came form . Ecclesiastes 3. 1-8

"To every time there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven" if you continue reading it, the passage also says there is a time to kill. Yet the 10 Commandments tell us not to kill. Did the passage in Ecclesiastes refer to killing animals and not people. Did it mean it was always to kill in self defense, or to defend your home. I cannot answer that question. I used the passage because it showed there are stages in lives of all people. Including a time to die. For my friend, his time has come. We were the same age, life long friends. Something happend to him that was not detected. It could had been a stroke, the early onset of alzheimer's. I do not know.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Trinity is a mystery of faith, three in one, but singular.

I cannot prove the existence of God. I know he exists, but I cannot prove it. To those who believe, no proof is needed, only acceptance.

You quoted the verse in Revolutions about Jesus sitting on the throne next to his father. This implies a sense of royalty, people standing court, crowns, the elite and the masses. That is not my image of heaven. You are a very good writer, I have a lot of years of experience as a writer. We both know that sometimes there just not adequate words to explain things. We know the science that causes rainbows, but we know it is the work of God.

As a child, in the Baptist church, I was taught that God was everywhere. He is with you when you are born. He is there to help you. Is it God himself or his angels that are with us all the time.

I think I said this in an earlier comment, but when I was in the process of becoming a Catholic, I discussed with the Priest the concept of the wine we receive at communion actually being the blood of Christ. I said it looks like wine, tastes like wine. How can we believe that it has been changed. He said the wine is changed to the blood of Christ, we cannot see or taste the difference. We have to accept it on faith.

There is one God, who is manifested as the father, son and holy spirit. I accept that as a matter of faith. I have no reason or need to believe otherwise.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry, I do understand your comment. I was not trying to change your beliefs, that is not within my rights as a human who is one of God's children. I cannot judge you or force my beliefs on you. At the same time, no one is going to change my beliefs. God is our father, He created us. Jesus did die for our sins, and then rose from the dead three days later.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

If there is one God who is manifested as the father, son and holy spirit, why stop there? Isn't he manifested in nature and all sentient beings?

And if we're going to suspend the laws of logic to believe in the God of monotheism, then others are equally justified in their religious beliefs, no matter how loony. What's good for the goose...

You can't hold others to a standard of logic that you don't hold yourself to. Without a standard of logic, I can believe in fairies and leprechauns and the Easter Bunny and still be as correct as those who believe in the trinity.

If the trinity is merely a "manifestation" of God, then the whole concept of the trinity loses its meaning and significance, because if God exists and he's "omnipotent", "omnipresent", and "Omniscient" then we're all his manifestations.

But, that's another hub for another time.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hi Charles, What do you mean by believing in One God is suspending the laws of logic? I am not asking for another hub, just a short answer please.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

Simple...what proofs are there for an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God? The burden of proof is on those who make an assertion, not on those who disagree.

For instance, if I told you that leprechauns exist, it wouldn't be up to you to prove they didn't(the Christians' favorite fall-back argument) because you're not the one making the assertion. If I said that tiny laundry-gnomes steal our socks(always just one) it wouldn't be up to you to disprove it.

An assertion requires evidence, otherwise, it's just speculation and speculation doesn't equal proof.

* You know better than to ask for a short answer to such a question. lol


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I understand, sort of like the black plague had nothing to do with germs. They could not be seen, heard, or felt. No one could prove they existed. So, the black plague never did happen did it? No cameras back then. Only things written on paper. Maybe someone lied about it? Yes, it was wrong to ask for such a short answer lol...oh, and I lose a sock from time to time also.


Charles Hilton 4 years ago

Yes, but, as science and knowledge progressed, the proof of the existence of germs increased. Whereas, the proof for God hasn't. In fact, it's looking worse for God as time and science and reason marches on.

*And not that I think science has all the answers, either. My dis-belief in God is purely philosophical and has nothing to do with anything my five senses might tell me.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Perhaps that is true. More and more people are saying things like " I do this for Allah" before they blow themselves up, or " In the name of God" before they hit a child or perhaps even when they drop a bomb. So, maybe it is looking worse for God. I also agree with you about science not having all the answers. But, science might be marching on but reason is not. That is too bad.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

In my first comment to this Hub, which is the 33rd comment, there was an error in the third paragraph regarding the possibility of Jesus having actual brothers,i.e., sons of Mary and Joseph. In the third paragraph, eighth line I refer to the offspring of Jesus. I was typing too fast. It should had read as the siblings of Jesus. I apologize for any confusion I may have created. As a Catholic, it is my belief that Mary had no other children after the birth of Jesus.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry there is no need to apologize for your beliefs. I respect them. I also respect you. You have an amazing amount of knowledge and information of religion, not just Catholic.


Mark 3 years ago

This is a really sensitive subject which in my opinion raises the question, was Jesus God or some god. He certainly did claim to be God in some of his statements, maybe not directly but certainly indirectly.

The man forgave sin, almost certainly something we as Christians associate with a function only God does. He even went as far as giving this power to his followers.

So my opinion is either he is God because of the above claims or Anti-God by claiming to be God if her did not have those powers.

If he is not part of the trinity, then what or who is/was he?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Mark,

Jesus is the Son of God.

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