Tithing Scriptures: What the Bible Says About Tithing

Finding and Understanding Tithing Scripture

Discover what Bible scripture says about tithing and how it can change your life.
Discover what Bible scripture says about tithing and how it can change your life.

Tithing Scriptures in the Bible

From one end of the pew to the other, the gold-plated collection plate is passed as its lustrous surface scatters light along the ceiling and walls.

The act of tithing, as such collections are called in the church, is one of the most questioned practices in Christian living; however, tithing scriptures in the Bible tell us it is one of the greatest acts of obedience a Christian can practice.

The purpose of tithing, found in Deuteronomy 14:22-23 (NLT), is made clear: to “teach you always to fear the Lord your God.” By practicing good tithing habits, scripture tells us we are showing God our desire to put him first place in our lives.

In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best. This means Christians should strive to not only pay or take out tithes upon receiving your paycheck, but to always put God above your bills and other responsibilities.

While tithing scripture lays out the foundation for why the tithe is an important part of obedience, a struggling economy or other interests can tempt us with fear or greed to skip the tithe.

Writing from Macedonia to encourage the Corinthians to solve internal struggles, Paul defended the collection of tithes in scripture, saying, “Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly,” (2 Corinthians 8:12, NLT).

Paul points out a family’s needs should not be affected by tithing, but rather, each person should give in proportion to what they have been given (2 Corinthians 9:10) while giving as much as they are able to (2 Corinthians 8:12, 9:16).

2 Corinthians also contains two other important factors in which Christians are encouraged to measure their giving against, including following through on previous financial promises (8:10), such as pledges to ministries not met; and to give according to what your own heart and mind tell you is right.

The latter factor is an important one, as church debate and debate among other Christians on tithing can create pressure on a person to pay more, thinking they won’t see the blessings or favor of God without increasing their tithe.

These feelings of fear or unnecessary pressure are the works of the enemy; don’t listen and instead, do as Paul outlines in 2 Corinthians 9:7:

“You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. ‘For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”

Finally, tithing scripture even outlines directions in measuring whether or not the ministry you are tithing into is the right place for you to sow your seed.

Twice in the Bible, scripture dictates churches and other Christian ministries should give at least a tenth of tithes collected (Numbers 18:25-29) to advance the kingdom of Heaven on projects outside the church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities (1 Timothy 5:3).

When the church tithes, regardless of economic climate or uncertainty, you can be assured that God will return to you in full measure grace, favor, mercy and blessings you cannot contain.

Remember what Paul said:

“Right now you have plenty and can help those are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it,” (2 Corinthians 8:15).

This is the only area in which God directly tells us to challenge Him; invest in Christ’s people by sowing your seed--your tithe--into strong Christian ministries and be a cheerful giver!

Living the Tithe

How Often Do You Tithe?

  • Every Paycheck
  • When I Can Afford to Tithe
  • Rarely
  • Never Tithed
See results without voting

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Comments 549 comments

Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

I really appreciate the balance of LAW versus GRACE in this hub. Praise God! Thank you for this very encouraging message.


oscarwms profile image

oscarwms 7 years ago from PA

I hear arguments against thithing saying that was under law. Duh! Abraham paid tiths to Melchizedec before the law was given (Gen 14:20)


meetbrandon profile image

meetbrandon 7 years ago from Houston, Texas Author

Thank you, Carrie, for your kind comment!

Oscar, I have also heard similar arguments against tithing, claiming Old Testament law is dead to Christians as we live under grace. My question for you--and any of you--is how do you respond to those who do not believe Christians should tithe?


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

We are indeed not under the Old Testament Law (I just published two hubs on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant to explain this using several scriptures and very little narration by me). However, you gave New Testament scriptures about giving. We are not under the Law to make a "payment" of 10%, but a greater law, that of giving all we can to further the ministry of our Lord! This giving can be monetary, food, clothing, shelter, time and skills, prayer, so many things!


meetbrandon profile image

meetbrandon 7 years ago from Houston, Texas Author

Carrie, I really enjoyed reading your Old Covenant law hub and appreciate the depth of your research and understanding of scripture. I sincerely suggest all my readers check out Carrie Bradshaw's blessed body of work.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Praise God! Thank you! I am blessed by your writings as well (left a response for you, by the way ~ some specific scriptures regarding your question). Be sure to balance that with II - The JOY in the New Covenant! God bless you!


yes2truth profile image

yes2truth 7 years ago from England

"it is one of the greatest acts of obedience a Christian can practice."

As a Born Again son of God I don't obey anyone nor am I required to, for I am under Grace, so what are you under!!??

Nil points for getting the answer right!


meetbrandon profile image

meetbrandon 7 years ago from Houston, Texas Author

Yes2Truth, I am not obeying just anyone, but the living seed of the Word of God, the Bible, the truth, which is unfallible. Are you calling the Bible fallible? Somehow flawed?

Tithing scripture exists even in the New Testament, when the new Covenent was made, therefore, tithing is still made important for us even today.

Whereas you might think I am wrong, I am not going to debate you on this point because the Bible ALSO says not to get into quarrels over Biblical principle, but rather remember we share the most basic fundamentals which are Jesus Christ came and died for our sins and that through him, we all shall be saved.

One last point, can you show me anywhere in your understanding how being obedient to tithing can somehow HURT us? :) Thanks for reading.


yes2truth profile image

yes2truth 7 years ago from England

"Yes2Truth, I am not obeying just anyone."

I will repeat: I do not obey ANYONE and nor do I have to - I am under Grace and in brotherhood with the Lord Jesus Christ.

"The living seed of the Word of God, the Bible, the truth, which is unfallible. Are you calling the Bible fallible? Somehow flawed?"

Absolutely, it's the most corrupted English book in the world and the most evil book if not in the right pair of hands.

Tithing is Old Covenant Law - Period.

As for arguing, I do not argue nor do I debate, I tell people The Truth, but they, unfortunately, and from their erroneous Christian Religious position want to argue with me.


GRIM REAPER 7 years ago

Cant go with this

your first mis-quote "In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income,"

Deuteronomy is for the Israelites, The Israelites were called to tithe, not Gentiles.

Jesus Christ is the Tithe the First fruits, that's why he set humanity free, especially free from religion, tithing is religion.

God loves a cheerful giver, dont confuse the two.

Isaiah 58


susanafe 7 years ago

I would be interested to know what you think about Deut. 14:22-29. Thank you.


Izombiheartzoey profile image

Izombiheartzoey 7 years ago

Here's my questions. What purpose does tithing serve? Is tithing something which is only something which is monetary? Where does the tithing go? I assume some goes to the preach to pay for his necessaries of substance, and some towards helping someone. It just seems to me that it would be a more direct tithing to physically to go and participate in the works of helping. Money seems like a very indirect route to help. Just curious, the hub seems to me more about the "how" of tithing and less about the "why" and "what" of tithing.


"Quill" 7 years ago

Great sudy...Thank You


adnoel profile image

adnoel 7 years ago

Okay, here is my 2cents on tithing. Earlier today,a great man of God explained it like this. We are under grace and as a previous blogger explained Abram gave a tenth of his earning to the high preist Melchizedek

Genesis 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Then the pastor referenced Hebrews 7:1-17 with emphasis on v.11 and v. 17

Abram tithe before there was a law to tithe. Therefore he was not under 'mandate' to tithe. He did out of love for God.Also Bishop pointed out, Jesus did not command us to tithe in the new testiment. However, He did say in 1 Corinthians 13:1- And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Yes God loves a cheerful giver, just has He gave His son to die for us out of love, then out of love we should do the things He has asked us to do. Honestly, have I neglected to tithe, yes I have at times.Yes I have screwed up and this is why it is so important for me to write on this because God corrected me today.

You can't go around quoting Malachi3:10 to everyone, He spoke to me and said, Don't waste your time quoting this scripture because the law hold them to the law. Yet, If you claim to love me with all your heart, all your soul, all your spirit, then I should not have to make you tithe, you would tithe because you Love me. Not for what I can do for you but for what I have done for you. If you say you love me then show me.

You don't have to tithe if you don't want it is your choice just like everything else. However, if you love someone, then you would show that person love in action and not in lip service. Do not give grudgently, nor with haste, but with the love that God has shown you. I was living under the law because i kept quoting malachi to myself. I was more afraid of not tithing and giving to God out of haste, yet when i give now, it is because i'm trying to strenghten my relationship with Him. I love my children, and when they ask for fish should I give them a stone. What kind of love is that. So since I say I love Him I should do all things according to the love I have in my heart for God.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

According to the Word of God, tithing was NEVER on income or anything that man made or earned. The Lord's was ALWAYS on the miraculous increase from God, not man. Tithing could NEVER be on income, according to the Word.

Abraham did NOT tithe on his wealth or his income. He gave 10% of war spoils to one king, and the other 90% to another king and kept nothing for himself. ONE example of a tithe out of over 2,000 years of history. Abraham's tithe has absolutely nothing to do with the way tithing is taught in the church today.

God said the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave the tithe to the Levites. At no time did God ever change that command, so what right does anyone have to give what God directed to the Levites to give it to the church? ONLY the Levites had a right to collect the tithe. What pastor has a right to collect the tithe today?

The whole tithe was given to the Levites who were then required to give a tenth of the tithe to the priests.

God gave the Twelve Tribes of Israel an inheritance. ELEVEN got the promised land, and ONE, the tribe of Levi, got the tithe.

The purpose of The Lord's tithe was to support the LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD. Once that priesthood ended, there was no further purpose for the tithe.

Jesus did not tithe. Paul did not tithe. Peter did not tithe. ONLY Israelites who had farms with crops and or animals were commanded, or even allowed to tithe. It HAD to be from God's increase, and from the Holy Land to quality. That is why the tithe was Holy - it came from God, not man.

Paul NEVER taught tithing. That is pure nonsense to say he did. Paul taught giving from the heart, not under compulsion.

Church leaders have essentially diluted the tithe from God’s miracles to man’s achievements. In other words, in the tithing formula, man has replaced God with himself!

Church leaders have taken scripture out of context, CHANGED the words, and teach a false doctrine. The ONLY part of the Biblical tithe church leaders teach is the ten percent. Church leaders ignore who is to pay the tithe, where the tithe comes from (or what is to be tithed), and who the tithe is to be taken to.

It's time Christians research the topic for themselves instead of believing what is being taught in their local church. The pastor's intentions may be good, but good intentions do not make up for incompetency.

I am a former accountant and tax auditor and have done an in-depth analysis of the scriptures and have written a book titled TITHING TODAY which is available as a free download at tithingbook.info


thecatholicexpert profile image

thecatholicexpert 7 years ago

Great hub thanks for sharing it with all of us. God Bless!


Jodi_Unity profile image

Jodi_Unity 7 years ago from Flordia

great hubs! Tithing is very important! I sometimes feel bad that I cant give to the church because I dont have a job times are tough, I know God understands though and when I do come across money I give some of it to the church.

I just started writing hubs my preacher said I should follow my heart and write if thats my desire so I write all christian hubs.

My latest hub is

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/You-are-sp...

if you want to check it out.

God bless


Melusi Nxumalo 7 years ago

GOD SAID:MY PEOPLE PERISH BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF KNOWLEGDE. AND SPECIFICALLY CONCERNING THIS TITHING TOPIC I KNOW THAT SOME OF US ARE STILL LACKING IN KNOWLEDGE AND THE PERSON THAT SHALL HELP US IS GOD HIMSELF THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, SO LET US ASK THE LORD ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND SEEK HIM WITH THE ANSWER IN FAITH SO THAT WE WILL NEVER BE CONFUSED AND ALSO SO THAT THE DEVIL WILL NOT GET A CHANCE TO ABUSE US ABOUT TITHING AS THE CHILDREN OF GOD


The Rising Glory profile image

The Rising Glory 7 years ago from California

There seems to be a mixture in your scriptures, while I agreed with most of what you wrote when you jumped over into 2 Corinthians you assumed that Paul's speaking is of the tithe and not of the offering. It then appears that you are stating that a believer should decide the amount they tithe. I don't get that because "tithe" by definition is a tenth. It is impossible to tithe 5% or 15%.

It is interesting that you avoided Hebrews 7 in your comments which brings the Old Testament practice and the NT responsibilities of the tithe together.

Many try to point to "grace" to nullify the requirement of the tithe illustrating a lack of understanding of what Grace truly is. What was abhorred by God in the Old Testament is still abhorred by God in the New. The cross didn't change the heart of God it is to change the heart of man.

No where do we find the abolishing of the tithe, even though the tithe is rarely spoken of in the NT. But one must differentiate between the tithe (a tenth of) and an offering which is a matter of the heart.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Actually, the tithe WAS ABOLISHED in the New Testament.

SIX STEPS TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN AND HOW THE TITHE ENDED:

Step 1: Hebrews 7:5 confirms that Levi received tithes according to the law under the Levitical priesthood.

Step 2: Hebrews 7:12 tells us changing the priesthood will also change the law.

Step 3: Hebrews 7:18 verifies that the command to tithe was disannulled (canceled).

Step 4: Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 confirm that the Old Testament laws were abolished; nailed to the cross.

Step 5: Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 above tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law – by nailing the laws to the cross.

Step 6: Galatians 3:10 is telling us those who reject what Jesus did on the cross and continue to put themselves under the law are cursed by the law. That verse also tells us those who put themselves under even one of the laws, are putting themselves under all of the laws written in the book.

That's pretty clear to me.


reneesjourney profile image

reneesjourney 7 years ago from USA

Wow this is interesting. After studying the scriptures for myself. I see that according to the old covenant the people were bound by law. According to the new testament it is not about law but the Spirit of God. Law says you must pay a tenth. Spirit says give and it shall be given. If you give bountifully you reap bountifully vice versa. I used to be bound up under the law. The scriptures have taught me that I should be a liberal giver period. The book of Galations set me free! I came out of religion and into the freedom Christ has given me. It's about giving!!


thelesleyshow profile image

thelesleyshow 7 years ago from US

It is hard in this economic climate to give but stay faithful and know that God will bless you for your gifts. Test the Lord in this, He says to.

We've been struggling constantly with money issues but God will keep you afloat I promise you that. We've been out of work now for almost a year but just yesterday my husband was blessed with a good job. I owe it all to God and staying faithful to my tithe.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

thelesleyshow - And what about all those people who do NOT tithe, but also lost their jobs, but got another job within a few weeks?

Tithing had nothing to do with your husband getting another job.

The Lord does bless those who give. Tithing is Old Testament Law that Jesus nailed to the cross.


thelesleyshow profile image

thelesleyshow 7 years ago from US

It's about obedience Gary.

There are principles behind tithing that have nothing to do with the money itself. Tithing teaches us obedience. When God asks us for something, we should be willing to give it freely and gladly. He has CLEARLY ASKED FOR IT!

In Luke 14:33 the Bible says, In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

You clearly are not willing to give up everything and that is something you will have to resolve with Him. Not me.

I know when the floodgates of heaven have been opened on me. My husband found work because we stayed obedient to the Lord.

Your bitter answer really something you should think about. Rather than arguing with Christians for the sake of arguing and just to hear yourself talk, maybe you should pray and listen to what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

thelesleyshow - Can you give me scripture that tells us we are to tithe? Tithing was never taught in the New Testament. Tithing was commanded only of the Israelites, and ONLY on crops and animals (Leviticus 27:30-34). The Lord's tithe was NEVER on anything that man made or earned. To change God's words to tithing on income is to say that God didn't know the future, and/or that God didn't provide for the future in His Word.

God, Himself, through the Spirit, taught me what I needed to know about the tithe last year, a little bit at a time over a period of ten days. He told me what to "tell the people."

I have spent thousands of hours researching and studying this topic. Why have I spent so much time on it? Because my previous pastor asked me to teach a Sunday School Class on finances, and when I started researching to prepare for the class, I discovered tithing ended at the cross. I prayed and prayed and begged The Lord to NOT let me be a false teacher. That is when He taught me the truth. From there, the Spirit lead me to teaching others. My pastor disagreed with me at first, but then told me he would really study the topic. Weeks later, he STOPPED teaching tithing. Another pastor I had for years told me I was correct, but that he had to teach that tithing was required because people just don't want to give. I have learned of other pastors who also have admitted the same thing. Over 100 ministers recently left the Worldwide Church of God because they said it was immoral to teach tithing.

Show me scripture where tithing is being obedient to God in the New Testament.

SIX STEPS TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN AND HOW THE TITHE ENDED

STEP 1 - Hebrews 7:5 confirms that Levi received tithes according to the law under the Levitical priesthood.

STEP 2 - Hebrews 7:12 tells us changing the priesthood will also change the law.

STEP 3 - Hebrews 7:18 verifies that the command to tithe was disannulled (canceled).

STEP 4 - Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 confirm that the Old Testament laws were abolished; nailed to the cross.

STEP 5 - Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 above tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law – by nailing the laws to the cross.

STEP 6 - Galatians 3:10 is telling us those who reject what Jesus did on the cross and continue to put themselves under the law are cursed by the law. That verse also tells us those who put themselves under even one of the laws, are putting themselves under all of the laws written in the book.

All tithing before the law and after the law is free-will giving and was NEVER commanded by God.

Tithing before or after the law was not commanded by God and therefore is free-will giving.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SIX STEPS TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN AND HOW THE TITHE ENDED

STEP 1

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 7:5 confirms that Levi received tithes according to the law under the Levitical priesthood.

STEP 2

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:12 tells us changing the priesthood will also change the law.

STEP 3

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 7:18 verifies that the command to tithe was disannulled (canceled).

STEP 4

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 confirm that the Old Testament laws were abolished; nailed to the cross.

STEP 5

Galatians 4:5 (KJV)

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:5 tells us that Jesus redeemed those who were under the law. Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 above tell us how Jesus redeemed those under the law – by nailing the laws to the cross.

STEP 6

Galatians 3:10 (KJV)

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:10 is telling us those who reject what Jesus did on the cross and continue to put themselves under the law are cursed by the law. That verse also tells us those who put themselves under even one of the laws, are putting themselves under all of the laws written in the book.


jim 7 years ago

my experience with tithing is it has become a way to exploit the book of malachi. this book has been used by televangelist to say that it is the way to success & prosperity. televangelist say that if you give your 10% you will be rich, successful & prosperous.

REALLY? in the book of proverbs, it talks about sharpening your SKILLS, UNDERSTANDING & HAVING WISDOM WITH REGARDS TO YOUR JOB & WORKING HARD. it is like a farmer who plant seeds during the spring or summer & harvest his crops during the fall. this involves HARD WORK, understanding the process of planting & finally harvesting what you sow.

is it because pastors & televangelist are lazy & using & exploiting malachi can result in easy money?

pastors & televangelist exploit the book of malachi. but in the same book of malachi, it also rebukes the priest bec. they give the wrong instructions & teaching that causes the people to stumble.

give you tithe because you want to give to god for the blessings he has given you & you are not FORCED TO give in the name of obedience. that is not obedience & humility but you are giving out of guilt, shame, blame & fear.


Jamey 7 years ago

I think most miss the point of tithing. Just as what Christ did for all of us on the Cross was a GIFT - mercy and grace - we too should be willing ( 2 Corinthians 8:12 ) to follow the same example by giving to others.

I would say that gifting to your local church would allow you to help out many of your own neighbors in a much larger way than one person/family could do. I would also say that our service (abilities), talent, spiritual gifts could be tithing too. ( 2 Corinthians 9:7 )

Grace has two very clear acts - 1. in salvation and 2. in the walk and service of the saved (Rom 6:15).


Lady Summerset profile image

Lady Summerset 7 years ago from Willingboro, New Jersey

Greetings,

What a powerful hub! I believe that today's christian are cheerful givers -- giving out of their abundance as God has given unto us.

In fact, just this evening when I got home, Christian neighbors across the street brought over bags filled with produce. Giving out of their abundance! I believe the Holy Spirit led them and God blessed them!

Great Hub! and I've enjoyed ALL the responses of our brothers and sisters in Christ!

He came that we might have LIFE and that more abundantly!


seyiari profile image

seyiari 7 years ago

I THINK GOD HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT TITHING IS NOT GIVING . IT IS A SPECIAL PORTION OF YOUR INCREASE WHICH GOD HAS RESERVED FOR HIMSELF. Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is Jehovah's. It is holy to Jehovah.

JESUS ALSO PUT A STAMP ON TITHING HAS A NEW CONVENANT PRACTISE {Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and you have left undone the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith. You ought to have done these and not to leave the other undone.}


Gary 7 years ago

seyiari - Where does God say to tithe on YOUR increase? You quote Leviticus 27:30 which is tithing on God's increase - items from the land, that come directly from God, NOT on anything that man made or earned. Next, you quote Matthew 23:23 which is PRIOR to Calvary; therefore, prior to the New Covenant, or New Testament. Jesus was speaking to those who were under the Old Testament laws. Therefore, Matthew 23:23 does NOT show that Jesus, in any way, endorsed tithing for the Christian church.

All you need to do is study Hebrews 7:5, 12, and 18 and you will plainly see that when the Levitical priesthood ended, so did ALL the laws that supported it, including tithing. Can't be any clearer than in The Word itself.


george macomber 7 years ago

what we cannot deny is that both Tithing and Free will offering is mentioned in the Bible...albeit one is of the Old Covenant sealed with the Blood of bulls and the other of the New Covenant sealed with the Blood of Jesus the Son of God. Study the both concepts of giving and then make your decision with the guidiance of the Holy Spirit as to whether you are to Tithe or give freely to the Lord or do both. God has given us the fereewill to chose.....and chose only at the conviction of the Holy Spirit....either way you chose you reap the consequences...


anonymous 7 years ago

Gentiles were not Gods chosen people nor were they under any Mosaic laws in the Old Testament. Jews were forbidden to marry Gentiles and were forbidden to even eat with them or go into their houses. Gentiles (non Jews) were not even included as Gods people until after Jesus went to the Cross so the point is moot in my opinion on whether Gentiles were commanded to Tithe. Unless you were Jewish none of the Jewish Mosaic laws applied to you period and end of story. It is amazing how some Tithe Teachers have made a square fit into a circle with their scripture twisting!


Andy 7 years ago

Hubster meetbrandon,

You asked Yes2Truth how paying tithe could hurt. Very good question. I find many questions like it in Scripture. Here is the first one—

“How could eating a piece of fruit hurt?”

It is easy to show how paying the tithe can hurt. Let us begin with a guy from Guyana named Jim Jones. Ol’Jimmyboy loved the tithe. Shall we continue this discussion? Or is it time to pass the plate

Andy


Iseeu 7 years ago

this has been a blessing to read, but the true of the matter is about OBEDIENCE.You can keep your eyes closed are not but you will see that it is only about OBEDIENCE.


Jay 7 years ago

Why would someone not want to do more under grace than what was forced by the law. We have a greater debt then they!


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 7 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Anyone having trouble with the practice of tithing, has a problem with both obedience and a wrongful relationship with their money. Period. Excuses abound and are always available for those that refuse to acknowledge the truth of the tithe. (Excuses is something that the devil never runs out of and he is quick to distribute them.)

Why, even in the garden of Eden, God kept back a portion for Himself. The tithe acknowledges that God is our source and it is an act of obedience. Prolly, the very ROOT of obedience concerns our tithes.

And there is a difference between the tithe and an offering, as Rising Glory pointed out.

Good hub, Brandon.


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 7 years ago

Tithing was for the Israelites not the Gentiles, and Jesus Christ beacme the Tithe for believers, and the true Tithe is called the Firstfruits which is Christ

1Co:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Co:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Old Covenant laws were pointing towards Jesus Christ, and when he came he fulfilled them all including the tithe.

So tithing is giving of Firstfruits, and this has been stopped according to Jesus Christ being the offering, the Old has ceased.Old has faded away. Old has no effect today under the New Covenant.

It has been used as a money making machine in the church. Reject tithing as a teaching of obedience, God is already pleased with those in his son Jesus Christ .

Dont confuse giving with Tithing

Giving is a better practice than Tithing, it offers freedom and right of choice without a law attached.

Tithing is a law of bondage, and many have been set free of this bondage to walk in freedom, thats why Christ is that freedom the Firstfruits

Many believers are walking in error thinking God blesses tithers. God blesses his children regardless of giving or tithing, its his promise.

We owe God nothing, he has set us free from Laws and Ordinances.

Giving is the answer to support of spreading the Gospel, you can decide "purpose in your heart" one day and decide differently another day, hence the freedom to decide. God will not force your mental choice or press a Law on you to obey. Grace covers it.

Shalom


Debradoo 7 years ago

Everything belongs to the Lord. When we tithe, we are acknowledging this truth. When we do not tithe, we are refusing to acknowledge this truth.

Tithing is not us giving God ten percent but God giving us nine tenths of what belongs to Him. Therefore, when we refuse the tithe we are truly robbing God, just as the Word says, because we are taking 100 percent.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Tithing is one of the most misunderstood topics in the Bible.

Let's get the facts straight. First, firstfruits has NOTHING to do with the tithe. Nehemiah 10:37-38 shows us that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests while the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities. Firstfruits has NOTHING to do with a tenth. The word tithe means a tenth, nothing else.

The first mention of a tithe in the Bible is in Genesis 14:20 which is repeated in Hebrews 7. No church basis it's teaching of the tithe on Abraham's tithe - pagan spoils of war, a one-time event, not on his income or prior wealth, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself.

The next mention of a tithe is in Genesis 28:22 where Jacob makes a vow to give a tenth, but ONLY IF God fulfills Jacob's terms. No church basis it's teaching of the tithe on Jacob's vow to tithe. By the way, there is nothing in the scriptures to show that Jacob ever, in fact, gave a tenth.

The next mention is in Leviticus 27:30-33. These verses are the definition of what is known as The Lord's Tithe. The actual law for the Levitical tithe is in Numbers 18. You cannot change God's Word. The definition of the Biblical Tithe is clear - it is ONLY on food items (crops and animals). The law in Numbers 18 makes it clear as to who is to receive the tithe (the Levites), what the duties are, etc. Numbers 18 IS the law that established the Levitical priesthood. That law includes how the priesthood is to be financed, and who could be the priests, and who could be high priest.

Numbers 18 was never changed. The priesthood of Jesus Christ was established WITHOUT law. There is NO law from God that commands the duties, how the priesthood will be finances, etc. Because Numbers 18 was never changed, and since it did NOT allow a high priest from the tribe of Judah, the ONLY WAY we can accept Jesus Christ as high priest now, and for born-again believers to be the priests now, is to CANCEL THE LAW, at least Numbers 18 and ALL OTHER LAWS relating to the Levitical priesthood. That includes tithing. Hebrews 7:28 actually tells us that Numbers 18 was disannulled, or cancelled.

The priesthood of Jesus Christ is based on FAITH and GRACE.

NOWHERE in the Bible does it show that God ever commanded anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned. The tithe was always on the miraculous increase from God, not man.

To be "obedient" to an Old Testament Law is showing disrespect to Jesus, and in my opinion, is denying what Jesus did on the cross.

Tithing today does NOT show obedience to God or love of God. It shows ignorance which is being perpetuated by dishonest and/or ignorant preachers who obviously have little faith. I know of many pastors who know that tithing ended at the cross but who continue teaching and collecting the tithe to keep the money coming in.

All of the following well-known scholars agree that tithing ENDED AT THE CROSS, and that there is NO tithing in the Christian Church.

Scholars at the SOUTHEASTERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY who published their report on tithing in 2005, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Robert Baker (chief SBC historian), Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.), Phillip Schaff (historian), Alfred Edersheim, James W. Winfree Ministries, C. I. Scofield, Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary), Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary), Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary), Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College), Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible), Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College), Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary, DALLS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, TALBOT BIBLE COLLEGE, and the list goes on and on.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

CORRECTION TO ABOVE - Hebrews 7:18 actually tells us that Numbers 18 was disannulled, or cancelled.


Maraiya Storm profile image

Maraiya Storm 7 years ago from Prescott, Arizona


Maraiya Storm profile image

Maraiya Storm 7 years ago from Prescott, Arizona

I don't think it is a sin to not tithe. I don't think that God will punish us or withhold our prosperity and blessings simply because we aren't tithing. However, when we tithe, God loves us for it and will bless us with increased prosperity flow.

People should not be tithing out of feelings of fear that they will be breaking God's law or be punished if they don't tithe. They should not be tithing simply out of obedience and obligation. God will love us and help us and grow us whether we tithe or don't tithe.

However, when you are flowing in grace, you will automatically feel like you want to tithe, and you will have no fear that tithing will deplete your finances. You will just know that as you give, you also receive. You won't be feeling like you are being forced to tithe out of some old law in the Old Testament. You won't be complaining about ministers teaching tithing.

Tithing cannot hurt us, it can only increase our blessings and help the church to pay its bills and grow.

We give to the church out of love and appreciation for all that the church has done for us. When someone helps you, you have a desire to help them, too, and you have a desire to give something back to them. That's just automatic, when you are flowing in love and appreciation and have no fears or false beliefs.

The Devil wants us to stop tithing because if we stop tithing, then the churches and TV ministries will suffer financially. Without tithing, TV ministries would cease to exist.

I don't see anything wrong with teaching tithing, as long as it isn't being taught that you must tithe because to not tithe is considered to be a sin and a breaking of God's law. Tithing should be taught in the same way that a church would teach about giving and receiving. There should be no judgments or threats involved.

Also, ministers should not be in a state of greed when they teach tithing; yet ministers should have a good healthy sense of the fact that they deserve to have wealth and know that they will be good stewards of that wealth and flow in their divine guidance as to how to allocate their wealth, according to God's will.

Many people still do not understand that as they give, they also receive. Many people are still afraid to tithe because of a lack of finances or because of a down economy. The church can heal those false beliefs by teaching concepts of tithing and giving.

Perhaps some people have a problem with how tithing is being taught, as opposed to their being against tithing entirely? It's like as soon as they hear the term, "tithing," some sort of red flag goes up. It's almost like they think that tithing is a sin. This is not right.

Some people also view the ministers who teach tithing as being too greedy. I don't think that this is usually the case. Ministers have to be able to pay their bills and expand their ministries. And I don't see anything so wrong about ministers wanting to be prosperous. God wants everyone to be prosperous, especially his ministers. It's like the Devil wants us all to think that ministers shouldn't have a lot of money. What's wrong with ministers having money? If anyone should have lots of money, the ministers should be at the top of the list to receive first, not last! It is not a sin to be wealthy! The government is trying to restrict the amount of money that ministers are allowed to pull in from donations. Is this right or fair? Certainly, greed is a sin. But one has to determine whether a wealthy minister is wealthy out of greed, or wealthy out of love and integrity. Sometimes only God knows their heart.

Tithing is not about obedience, it is voluntary, and it has to come from the heart. You cannot tithe out of fear and obligation and expect to receive your hundredfold return. Do not tithe out of a fear that God and the church will judge you if you don't tithe. Don't tithe because you fear that if you don't tithe your prosperity won't flow.

I liked how you said, "How does tithing hurt us?"

I have become your fan. I will be reading and commenting on more of your hubs soon.

I am very new to Hub Pages (joined a month ago). I am hopping around getting to know other hubbers. I only have 6 hubs so far, but will have more published in the future.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Maraiya Storm - You are confusing tithing with giving. Tithing is NOT giving ten percent. Tithing is a PAYMENT, not a gift. The Biblical tithe was PAID. See Matthew 23:23 and Hebrews 7:9. Abraham GAVE a tenth, and Jacob vowed to GIVE a tenth. Abraham's gift was pagan spoils of war, NOT from his own income or wealth, was a one-time event, and HE KEPT NOTHING FOR HIMSELF. There is NO evidence that Jacob ever in fact gave a tenth, and if he did, he put conditions on God to fulfill before he would give. No church bases their teaching of the tithe on either one.

Churches today base their teaching on The Lord's Tithe. As I have already explained, the definition of The Lord's Tithe is in Leviticus 27:30-33, and the law, or requirements, or in Numbers 18.

Those against the false teaching of tithing are NOT against generous giving as taught in the New Testament. If a person wants to GIVE ten percent of their income to the church, that's fine. But they should NOT confuse this giving with the Biblical tithe which was law, a payment (not a gift), only on crops and animals, and required to be given to the Levities who were assigned duties at The Temple where the Spirit of God lived. To take the Biblical tithe to your local church is a sin against God since God made it perfectly clear where to take His tithe. It is being disobedient to God. God said His tithe is to be taken to the Levites. Period.

Pastors use Malachi 3:8-10 out of context to make people believe they are robbing God if they don't tithe. They should start with verse 7 which refers to not following the "ordinances." Those ordinances are contained in Numbers 18 which was cancelled in Hebrews 7:18. Therefore, Malachi 3:8-10 cannot possibly apply today.

People need to study this issue on their own and stop listening to dishonest and/or ignorant preachers who continue to perpetuate this false teaching.


anonymous 7 years ago

This will shut up the tithe police, who claim the not all of the law was abolished,just ask them if they also keep the Sabbath which is also law and it means to cease from all activity from Friday night to Saturday night. None of them keep the Sabbath so this shoots their false doctrine to continue to pay God to be blessed even since Jesus went to the Cross to pay all in full for us is not logical.


anonymous 7 years ago

If you don't keep the Sabbath you have no right condemning us for not swallowing your pay God the tithe or be cursed stupidity. I am more blessed accepting the fact that Jesus paid in full for not only my Salvation but for every need for free. I wish you people would stop slandering the good Character of our merciful and loving Father by saying to pay up or else!


Guest 7 years ago

Tithing is a trust issue .. not a money issue. Trust cannot be misunderstood or slandered.

If people think they are more blessed for not tithing, then that is between God and the non-tither.

As for me, I believe (and the Bible certainly supports this belief) that the tithe has always and will always belong to God.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Guest - Can you give scripture to back up your comments?


Guest 7 years ago

Let us start with Haggai 2:8 .. The silver is mine and the gold is mine, says the Lord. Now tell me, where in the New Covenant do you find that God no longer owns the silver and gold? You got scripture?

Now allow me the luxury of throwing this out .. I know I know, it is used profusely by the tithers .. but, hey you wanted scripture .. Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. .. Isn't Jesus instructing the Pharisees to NOT neglect the tithe (as well as not neglecting the other matters)??

Also try Malachi 3. God is also robbed of being able to truly bless us when we refuse to tithe. And then go on to read John 3:27. How can God be robbed if it does not belong to Him in the first place? And then go on to search the scriptures for anything about stewardship.

The world practices saving as a way of getting more. If you want more you take more or attain more and/or you work more. But, the Bible emphatically teaches that if we (of the Kingdom of God) want more, we must give more. Just the opposite of the world's system. And do not forget Psalm 24:1. And again, where in the New Testament does it say that the earth no longer belongs to God? You got scripture you can provide?

And then there are countless scripture on stewardship. This is the trust issue. We are stewards on this earth and it all belongs to God. When God can trust me with the little bit that He has given me and that belongs to Him then He can trust me with more. And the opposite would be true as well. What if He cannot trust me with the ten percent? If He first trusted me with the ten percent, then I can in turn, trust Him to provide for me.

IMHO, Tithing is simple spiritual common sense and I cannot figure out how someone cannot see the simplicity and the truth of the tithe, unless they allow the flesh to interfere. And tithing is a form of worship. You are wanting scripture to prove that we are to tithe today, but truth is, you have no scripture that says we are not to tithe today.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Guest: The silver is mine and the gold is mine, says the Lord.

Gary Arnold: No one is arguing that point. The Bible is clear that everything belongs to God.

Guest: Matthew 23:23

Gary Arnold: Of course Jesus confirms tithing was required. Jesus, Himself, was born, lived, and died UNDER THE LAW. The New Testament didn’t begin until after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus could not have told them to disobey the law.

Guest: Also try Malachi 3.

Gary Arnold: Pastors love to quote Malachi 3:8-10 OUT OF CONTEXT. You need to begin with Malachi 3:7 – “Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them….” Have you taken the time to find exactly where those ordinances are in the Bible? The ordinances for the Lord’s Tithe are in Numbers 18. Numbers 18 is THE LAW that established the Levitical priesthood, including how it would be financed.

Now go to Hebrews 7. In the first nine verses you will find reference to the tithe seven times. Hebrews 7:5 confirms that the sons of Levi received the tithe under the law. Hebrews 7:12 tells us that when the priesthood changes, the law must also change. Hebrews 7:18 tells us the law was disannulled. The ONLY law being referenced in Hebrews 7:1-18 is Numbers 18. Therefore, it is clear that Numbers 18 was cancelled, which means that tithing is NO LONGER THE WAY to support the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

If Numbers 18 was not disannulled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood. The Levitical priesthood was ESTABLISHED BY LAW, along with all its rules, including the tithe. The priesthood of Jesus Christ was ESTABLISHED WITHOUT LAW. There is NO law establishing the priesthood, no law setting duties, no law establishing how the priesthood should be financed. The priesthood of Jesus Christ is based on GRACE and FAITH.

God will take care of His Church by putting it in the hearts of born-again believers to give generously. Pastors who teach and collect the tithe must have very little faith in God. Many of us who have come to realize the truth no longer see ten percent as a minimum, or ten percent as doing our part. Many of us know that we must give MUCH MORE than any set percentage while others just don’t have much they can give. The New Testament teaches that we should give according to how much we have.

I believe that God is more concerned with what we keep for ourselves that he is with how much we give. Generous, sacrificial giving is what the New Testament teaches.


Mike French 7 years ago

To Gary Arnold: If Jesus in Mt 23:23 was speaking only to the Jews who were under the law (for the next year or two until His death), odd that His statement would be recorded for millions of Christians to read for 2000+ years. Odder still that we actually believe ANYTHING Jesus said because, by your reasoning, He was only speaking to those still under law. Oh, wait... I guess we should perhaps only obey those statements Jesus made AFTER His resurrection? All the commands and statements He made during His 3 year ministry leading up to the cross we should disregard? Sermon on the Mount? Disregard it. Not relevant. Why? Jesus was speaking prior to His death. Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself... Nope. Not that one either. Hmmm. Interesting theology you have there. Oh wait. I finally get it. If we disregard everything Jesus told us prior to His death (like not neglecting tithing - Mt 23:23), then we can also trash such statements as "... go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Mt 19:22) I have got to tell you, it's been awhile since I have heard such a spurious argument.


Guest 7 years ago

Gary Arnold, as Mike French has pointed out, your argument is completely out of order and makes not one lick of spiritual sense, man.

So, you scream 'grace grace' while all the time you are rejecting the High Priest (after the order of Melchisedec) His rightful tithe? Seriously?

And you truly believe that God is more concerned about us keeping our money than doing what He has directed us to do with our money?

Wow, ask God for revelation where your money is concerned, Gary Arnold. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you see what God desires where the 'tithe' is concerned. Screaming 'grace' is such a cop out. Yes, we are under grace but what is grace exactly? Is it the permission to be saved and remain justified while all the time we get to do what WE pick and choose as biblical (or not)?

Isn't grace what we need (and are given)in order to perfect our Christian walk?

I do not tithe to be a Christian. I am a Christian, therefore I tithe. Get the diff? And, contrary to your last comment there, I can give generously AND tithe, and both at the same time! The generous giving would be the offering, since an offering is anything given above the ten percent. Think about this .. really think .. How can God teach any born again believer to be generous when they refuse to tithe? And with the sowing and reaping laws that God has ordained on this earth and in His Kingdom .. The truth is we CANNOT afford to NOT tithe.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

To Mike French and Guest:

First, I never said that we should ignore everything that Jesus said. We need to determine who Jesus was speaking to. In the case of Matthew 23:23, he addressed the Scribes and Pharisees, the lawkeepers, who were under the Mosaic law. Jesus also supported ALL the Mosaic laws, not just some of them, like tithing.

Next, the definition of the Lord’s tithe is in Leviticus 27:30-33. The Lord claimed ONLY this tithe to be His, and He gave it to the Levities, forever, in Numbers 18. The ONLY tithe that God ever claimed to be His CAME FROM GOD, from God’s labor, from God’s increase (crops and animals) and NEVER did God ever command anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned.

Even though they had money, wages, income, etc. in the days of Abraham, God NEVER asked or commanded man to give back to Him a tithe of that money, wages, or income.

Man has essentially diluted God’s tithe from the miracles of God to income from man. In other words, man has REPLACED GOD with himself in the tithe formula. This is sad and shows how selfish man really is.

May I suggest you actually open your Bible and RESEARCH this topic. Show me ONE verse where God commands anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned.

Church leaders changed the tithe from crops and animals, which are assets, to income. The farmer’s income came from the sale or barter exchange of the crops and animals. They had markets to buy and sell, but that is NOT what God commanded them to tithe on.

My research reveals that in the nineteenth century, church leaders were saying that the crops and animals was the income of the Israelites. That was a false premise that led to the false conclusion that Israelites tithed on their income. There is no example in the scriptures where God required anyone to tithe on income.

I have already given you scripture to show that Numbers 18 was disannulled. The ONLY tithe that God claimed as His is in Numbers 18. The tithe referenced in Matthew 23:23 is in Numbers 18. The tithes and offerings referenced in Malachi 3:8-10 are in Numbers 18.

All of the following well-known scholars agree that tithing ENDED AT THE CROSS, and that there is NO tithing in the Christian Church.

Scholars at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary who published their report on tithing in 2005, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Robert Baker (chief SBC historian), Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.), Phillip Schaff (historian), Alfred Edersheim, James W. Winfree Ministries, C. I. Scofield, Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary), Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary), Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary), Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College), Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible), Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College), Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary, Dalls Theological Seminary, Talbot Bible College, and the list goes on and on.


Guest 7 years ago

Gary Arnold, over and over you accuse those that support the 'tithe' principle of lacking study, understanding, and knowledge of their Bibles. Shame on ya.

Go back to Malachi 3. God is robbed. Not the levitical priesthood. Now, if it were the levitical priesthood that was being robbed, I might be more inclined to agree with you on this 'you don't have to tithe because Jesus Christ is our tithe and the law is out and grace is in' doctrine. But, the scripture clearly states that God Himself is robbed. Why? Because it all belongs to God. And it STILL all belongs to God.

Sometimes, the most foolish people I come across are those that accuse me of not knowing my Bible because they think their own study time is unparalleled to those in disagreement with them. No amount of study time can compare with good common spiritual sense. A gift from the Holy Spirit.


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Guest: Go back to Malachi 3. God is robbed. Not the levitical priesthood.

Let’s look at Malachi 3. First, who is God speaking to – the priests or the people?

We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context.

By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed

at that point.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and

the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3

continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to

judgment….."

In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests

could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and

I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The

word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this

changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Read Numbers 18:29-30 and then read Malachi 1:14. Those verses explain robbing God of the offerings. The PRIESTS, not the people, robbed God of the offering by giving to God the worse instead of the best.

In Nehemiah 13 we are told that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe;

therefore, they had no food to eat at the temple, and they went back to their own fields.

Therefore, taking the Levites portion of the tithe is the robbing God of the tithe. Or to put it another way, THE LEVITES WERE ROBBED. God said He was robbed because the tithe was not taken where God directed.

Next, in Malachi 3:10 God says to bring all the tithes to the storehouse. The people took

the tithes to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities, not to the temple. The Levites

took the required tithe of the tithe to the temple. (See Nehemiah 10:37-38) Only those

tithes ever made it to the temple. The priests then took those tithes to the storehouse. It

only makes sense if God is speaking to the priests in this verse.

Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God’s tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God’s tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God’s Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God’s Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

Therefore, IT IS A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God’s tithe to your local church. IT IS A SIN for any pastor to accept God’s tithe.

You can make all the excuses you want, you can rationalize the tithe any way you want, but unless you follow THE WORD OF GOD, AS WRITTEN, you are NOT being obedient to God. God, Himself, defined what constitutes His tithe, and God, Himself, said where His tithe was to be taken. Man has no right to change either the defintion or the instructions. To do so makes it man’s word, NOT God’s Word.

Why anyone wants to keep the tithe now is beyond me. We are under A BETTER TESTAMENT. Why bring something that was inferior into the New Testament? Giving from the heart, or grace giving, is what the New Testament is all about.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 7 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Wow Gary Arnold. We must be reading our Bibles differently. Because I see Hebrews 7 as a testament to the tithe. In other words, I read Hebrews 7 as pro-tithe and it seems you are reading it as anti-tithe. Interesting.

I don't know what else to say to you Gary. We are definitely on opposite sides of the track here. I tithe under grace. I also give offerings under grace. Now, I do not necessarily believe that the tithe must go to the church. But, I do believe that we are to put away ten percent of our earnings and do as God directs. If God directs us to give to the church, then we give to the church. If He directs us to give it somewhere else, then so it is to be given somewhere else.

But, I do understand perfectly why God commands us to tithe. Just as I understand why He commands us to not lie or not steal. Or not commit adultery. I may not understand everything God commands, but what I do understand makes perfect spiritual sense to me.

Out of curiosity, what do you give to your church or to enhance or build up His Kingdom? I realize this is a private matter, but thought I might ask and see if you might answer. ;-)


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

Debradoo - To answer your question, I have given to the church as God directs me. Sometimes that has amounted to far in excess of ten percent. My total giving to the church and to those who I know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income, and I am retired. An example of my giving - instead of buying a big-screen hdtv, I purchased a 20-inch analog tv with a digital tuner for $225 instead of the larger Sony hdtv that I really would have liked but cost about a thousand dollars. I did this because I felt it was more important to help a friend that was having financial problems. That's just one of many examples. A while back I was saving for a new Dell computer. I had almost $1,000 saved up when the church I was attending (not even a member of that church) made an appeal to help pay off their building. God directed me to give the money to the church, and I did so cheerfully. To me, that was more important. The new computer could come later.

I have no problem living far below my means in order to help those less fortunate, financially, than me. I have been doing it all my life.

Consider this: In Malachi 3:7-10, I believe God is speaking to the priests. But suppose I am wrong, and God is speaking to the Israelites as a whole. How could one rob God? God said the tithe belonged to Him, but He GAVE the tithe to THE LEVITES. He commanded the people to take His tithe to THE LEVITES, FOREVER. Therefore, the way one could rob God of the tithe would be to withhold the tithe from the Levites, or to steal the tithe from the Levites. That is, in effect, robbing God while, at the same time, robbing the Levitical priesthood. Since God's command to take His tithe to the Levites (in Numbers 18) is forever, and God never changed that command, taking God's tithe to the local church has to be a sin against God. It is breaking the command to take His tithe to the Levites; therefore, that is also robbing God.

You can't have it both ways. Either tithing ended at the cross, or those taking God's tithe to the church are robbing God. Now I have no problem with giving a tenth of one's income to the church, but that is NOT giving it or paying it to God. God never commanded anyone to take His tithe to the Christian Church. God never gave the Christian Church permission to accept His tithe in His behalf. God never said you can take your tithe to whoever you believe is doing His work, or to give it to the poor, etc. God's instructions are clear in His Word.

What right does man have to change God's Word from tithing on crops and animals to tithing on income? What right does man have to change God's Word from taking the tithe to the Levites to taking the tithe to your local church, or anywhere else you decide?

If you really spend the time to research the history of tithing, you will find that tithing, as it is taught today, started in the mid 1800s. It was then that church leaders changed the definition of the tithe. Even Roger Williams, founder of the Baptist Church in the US, made it clear that the Baptist Church would never teach and collect the tithe. He said it was wrong, and that it would lead to career pastors (which it has), with wrong motives in their teaching (which is has done as well). Not until the second half of the 1800s did the Baptist Church teach and collect the tithe, and even then, their reason was money motivated - they had several missions planned that needed financing.

The teaching of tithing, as it is taught today, was motivated by money, NOT teaching God's Word. Over 100 ministers left the Worldwide Church of God a few years ago because they said they refused to continue teaching tithing as they said it was immoral, and that there was no scripture to back up that teaching. Many pastors know their teaching is wrong but continue teaching robbing God BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID they won't get enough in contributions to keep the church doors open. IF God is really in your church, God will put it in the hearts of those attending to give enough to keep His church going and growing. But IF God is NOT in your church, God will not put it in the hearts to give; therefore, the Pastor must lie and teach robbing God.

IN GOD'S OWN WORDS TO ME, through His Spirit, He told me to TELL THE PEOPLE the tithe was always on the miracles of God, or from God's gifts, from GOD'S LABOR and that He NEVER intended man to tithe on man's labor. The Spirit led me to Deuteronomy 8:18 which explains, to me, the difference between God's labor and man's labor. God gave us THE ABILITY to produce wealth. In other words, God gave me the ability to work and earn a living. That is my labor because God gave me that ability. God NEVER commanded anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned.

Stick with God's Word and leave emotions out and you will see that God's tithe was on ASSETS, not income, and was commanded to be taken to the Levites.

Another false teaching is to say we must tithe on the FIRST ten percent. Nowhere in The Word did God command anyone to tithe on the FIRST ten percent of anything. The definition of God's tithe is in Leviticus 27:30-33 - it is on A TENTH of the crops, and THE TENTH animal (not the first). Preachers mix firstfruits with the tithe, and they have nothing to do with each other. Also, in The Word, firstfruits could NEVER be money or income. The Hebrew definition is clear - it literally means the first of the crop.

You have a choice. Either follow God's Word, or follow man's teachings.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 7 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

It was not man that told me to tithe. It was God. And then He proceeded to show me why. So, until He tells me not to tithe, I will continue to do so.

Funny, how, it is a man always trying to tell me to NOT tithe .. isn't that ironic? lol

Have a blessed day, Gary Arnold. :-)


Gary Arnold 7 years ago

If God directs you to tithe, Debradoo, then by all means, tithe. But try to understand the difference between The Lord's Tithe and giving ten percent of your income. God is not going to tell you to do something that contradicts His Word. So be sure you pay a tenth of your crops, and every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod, and be sure the crops and animals are raised inside the boundaries of the Holy Land. Otherwise, it isn't a Holy tithe.

Are you sure God isn't directing you to give ten percent of your income to the church, or somewhere else, rather than PAY a ten percent Biblical tithe? The Lord's Tithe was a PAYMENT, not a gift, and according to God's own words, is to be taken to the Levites, FOREVER.


50 Caliber profile image

50 Caliber 7 years ago from Arizona

I like my Christianity much more than "Churchianity" as it seems there is much division here, one fighting another. I will happily pray outside the gate and give my excess freely to those who need it more than I.

Read this hub, included a quote from it below.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Pictograms

"There are ONLY two churches represented here today" Bruce spoke out in a deep and confident South African accent... "There is the Church of Jesus Christ, and the Church of man"..... he paused..... we waited..... "and it's very important that you realise which one you are a member of"

Pray often and take y our marching orders from the Holy Spirit and for the love of God, stop your incessant arguing as it serves no one and is a disappointment to my Lord Jesus Christ. The greatest is Love.


Jecca 7 years ago

Gary, I so appreciate you expounding on this issue with such graciousness and love as you confront other views. I have been studying this a lot lately, particularly after reading "Jesus for President" by Shane Claiborne, and am so thankful to have found such a thorough and understandable explanation of the difference between tithing and giving and the freedom with which we Christ-followers have in serving our Lord Jesus Christ. As a person who has been trained in the church all my life that tithing is obligatory, I've been astounded as I've actually read THE WORD and what it says about that matter. God bless you as you continue shedding light on the Scriptures, brother! :)


Robert Dukes 6 years ago

The Bible teaches The Tithe belongs to the Lord,

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is Jehovah's: it is holy unto Jehovah.

Where in the new testament does it say that has changed, Many would say its old testament? so is the Ten Commandments, do we discredit them also?

Perhaps the Tithe still belongs to the Lord? Perhaps something that was Holy in the Old Testament is still Holy today?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Not every thing is different under the dispensation of grace , Faith still pleases God as it did in the Old Testament Giving still pleases God also,

Under the dispensation of grace we may not be cursed for not giving God what is his but you will be poor, 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Perhaps spiritually or financially?

For myself I feel the Tithe is the very minimal one should give, and I have to say after more than 30 years of Tithing

God has blessed me Bountifully spiritually and financially but that is how I understand the scripture perhaps I error,if someone else see's it different that is between them and God.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

In reply to Robert Dukes' comments:

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. Notice that His tithe is on the increase of the seed and fruit of the tree (crops), and also every tenth animal that goes under the shepherd's rod from herds and flocks. Period. NOT income. NOT anything other than food from crops and animals.

Then in Numbers 18 God gives His ordinances for the tithe. God said He gave the tithe to the Levites, and that this ordinance is FOREVER. Anyone who pays God's tithe to other than a Levite would be disobeying God's command. Anyone who is not a Levite who accepts God tithe is also disobeying God's command. The fact is, IF God's tithe is taken to anyone other than a Levite, that would be robbing God.

What right does anyone have to change God's definition of His tithe, and to change the rules as to who can receive His tithe?

You have a choice. Either follow God's Word, OR follow what man teaches.

The tithe was disannulled in Hebrews 7:18. We are now under a better covenant. WHY would anyone want to carryover the inferior tithe to the better grace giving?

Consider this: Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood by command (law) which included tithing. The only way we can move forward to the current priesthood, where WE are now the priests, and Jesus is high priest, is to get rid of Numbers 18 in it's entirety. The Levitical priesthood was established by law while the current priesthood was established by grace.

Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18 explains this perfectly - that the sons of Levi received the tithe under the law, that changing the priesthood requires a change of the law, and that the command (Numbers 18) was disannulled.

Nowhere in the New Testament, after Calvery, does tithing appear in the Bible except in Hebrews 7. IF tithing was brought forward, certainly it would be mentioned somewhere other than Hebrews 7 where is shows it was disannulled.


Robert Dukes 6 years ago

I think the exchange of money was not prevalent in there time and culture, that they lived in a time where goods was the prevalent form of exchange and that was what God Required of them.

Jesus mention Tithe in Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. note he said and not leave the other undone, I would think, mint anise and cummin though they are spices were also used in the exchange of goods in that scribes and Pharisees were not farmers, they would not had been growing it them selves.

As far as the Tithe going to the Levites The Bible illustrated more than once the Tithe belong to God, it was only channeled in accordance to God's word through the Levites to him self , Now when we give, it is channeled to God in different ways consider,Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;

Mat 25:36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?

Mat 25:38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Mat 25:39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

We can give to God through Church s and charities that do such things and because I discern some legalism here I think it might be important to Identify who Jesus's brethren is we have,Mat 12:47 And one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking to speak to thee.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren!

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

As in my last I think remembering that Jesus came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill the law is key.

I Pastor a Church and over the years I have seen people give to the lord Tithe and offerings and I have seen them prosper I have also seen those who do not give and I find that they struggle financially and spiritually, I preach and teach Tithe not for the benefit of the Church but for the benefit of the giver.

You also mention the Priesthood, I am of a higher Priesthood,

1Pe 2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

A Royal Priesthood, as all believers are, one of those things that were fulfilled through Christ.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Reply to Robert Dukes:

First, you are not correct that they didn't use money in Biblical times. Money, gold and silver, are mentioned from the beginning of time. Abraham purchased land with money (Genesis 23:15-16). Jacob purchased land with money (Genesis 37:28). Joseph was sold to the Ishmeelites for money (Genesis 37:28). Exodus 30:14-16 tells us that a money offering was used for the service of the Tabernacle. Money was used to value a ram (Leviticus 5:15). They even had wages in those days (Genesis 29:15, 30:28, 31:7-8). Where did all this money come from?

To infer that bartering was the only form of commerce in the Bible is simply not supported. It is also not true that exchanging money for goods and services is the only way of doing business today. This generic classification of business and receiving compensation both during the law and after is cleared up by simply reading the Bible.

Leviticus 27:25 - Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, ...

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states that the period of mere barter had passed before the days of Abraham.

Even in a barter exchange, there is income. The income is what was received in the exchange. That is NOT what God required to be tithe. Rather, God required the tithe to be on ASSETS that came from God, assets that man could not make.

Money was so prevalent during the time of Jesus’ ministry in the flesh that there were even money changers. The book of Mark shows that money changers were present in the temple areas when Jesus overturned the tables and benches.

You state that now the tithe is channeled differently. What gives you the right to change God's command to take the tithe to the Levites? Are you saying that God didn't provide for the future in His Word, and therefore, man must change God's Word to fit the times?

The tithe ended at the cross, plain and clear (to me). However, I do believe in generous giving, from the heart, according to our means. I believe in sacrificial giving. I believe that God is more concerned with what we keep for ourselves than He is with how much we give.

Many pastors also combine firstfruits with tithing when the Bible clearly shows they have nothing to do with each other. According to Nehemiah 10:37-38, the firstfruits went to the Temple for the priests while the tithe went to the Levites. And according to Leviticus 27:30-33, the tithe was NOT the first ten percent.

Church leaders have essentially diluted the tithe from God’s miracles to man’s achievements. In other words, in the tithing formula, man has replaced God with himself!

It's time to stop the false teaching and start teaching from God's Word. I am convinced that proper teaching on giving and stewardship will result in MORE money being given to local churches. Pastors need to start putting the emphasis on 100% of ones income, NOT 10%. Christians need to pray over their spending as much as over their giving.

Only the truth can set us free. I go into much more detail on this topic in my free book located at www.TithingBook.info.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Additional information:

In Matthew 23:23, the spices referred to must have been raised by the scribes and pharisees themselves. Most likely in pots or a very small garden or patio-type garden. ONLY those raising crops or animals on the Holy Land were commanded to tithe.

There was no command to tithe on crops or animals that you received in a barter exchange. The tithe was only a tenth of the crops and animals raised on the land. To say that the scribes and pharisees tithed on spices they received from someone else can't be correct. That would mean the original crop grower tithed a tenth, and then those receiving some of the crops in an exchange also tithed on the crops. That simply cannot be since God said He reserved ONE TENTH of the crops and animals as His.

Example: Let's make this simple. 100 bushels of wheat was raised. Tithe = 10 bushels. The original owner of the land growing the wheat tithed 10 bushels. That leaves 90 bushels. Let's say he exchanged 50 bushels for something he needed. If those receiving the 50 bushels tithed on them, that would equal another 5 bushels. That would mean that 15 bushels were tithed, but God, Himself, claimed only 10 bushels as being His Holy tithe.


Robert Dukes 6 years ago

I did not say they did not use money, I said that it was not prevalent.

again and again they used the exchange of goods

1Ki 5:10 So Hiram gave Solomon cedar trees and fir trees according to all his desire.

1Ki 5:11 And Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand measures of wheat for food to his household, and twenty measures of pure oil: thus gave Solomon to Hiram year by year.

Laban asked Jacob, Appoint me thy wages, and I will give it. Jacob chose live stock.

Gen 30:25 And it came to pass, when Rachel had borne Joseph, that Jacob said unto Laban, Send me away, that I may go unto mine own place, and to my country.

Gen 30:26 Give me my wives and my children for whom I have served thee, and let me go: for thou knowest my service wherewith I have served thee.

Gen 30:27 And Laban said unto him, If now I have found favor in thine eyes, tarry: for I have divined that Jehovah hath blessed me for thy sake.

Gen 30:28 And he said, Appoint me thy wages, and I will give it.

Gen 30:29 And he said unto him, Thou knowest how I have served thee, and how thy cattle have fared with me.

Gen 30:30 For it was little which thou hadst before I came, and it hath increased unto a multitude; and Jehovah hath blessed thee whithersoever I turned: and now when shall I provide for mine own house also?

Gen 30:31 And he said, What shall I give thee? And Jacob said, Thou shalt not give me aught: if thou wilt do this thing for me, I will again feed thy flock and keep it.

Gen 30:32 I will pass through all thy flock to-day, removing from thence every speckled and spotted one, and every black one among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire.

Some times money and goods where both used:

Hos 3:2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and a homer of barley, and a half-homer of barley;

When the law was given they were in the wilderness though we know they had some money, I don't think they were carrying a lot of money or currency of any type,perhaps they had some of the spoils of Egypt but I don't think it was in the form of money and being they were slaves a few weeks earlier I don't think they had earn much money, there may had been some who had no money at all.

So goods were used.

Goods were used to describe the wealth of Job.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she-asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the children of the east.

Goods were used to describe the wealth of the rich man.

Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

Luk 12:17 and he reasoned within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have not where to bestow my fruits?

Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my grain and my goods.

There was also a Tithe of Tithe given of the Levites

Num 18:26 Moreover thou shalt speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave-offering of it for Jehovah, a tithe of the tithe.

That is what I believe was given by the Pharisees

Yet the tithe was before the Law in that Abraham paid Tithes.

Jacob vowed a tenth of all that God would give him before the law

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

Gen 28:21 so that I come again to my father's house in peace, and Jehovah will be my God,

Gen 28:22 then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house. And of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

You are right in that the Law is dis annulled, in that Jesus

fulfilled the law, not destroying it, we are all priest now through Christ.

We see a need we give, where would this world be if we did not give? Its not the atheist that are sending money to Hati right now it is Churches and Charities people who pay there Tithe and offerings faithfully,that give the most, as they always have.

Giving it to God,

The Tithe is more than a rule it is a act of faith and obedience an opportunity to be blessed as giving has always blessed those who give.

1Ki 17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

1Ki 17:9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.

1Ki 17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.

1Ki 17:11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.

1Ki 17:12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.

1Ki 17:13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.

1Ki 17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.

1Ki 17:15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.

1Ki 17:16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

The tithe blesses the giver.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

I believe in the blessing of giving tithe and offerings , I have tested God as he asked me to and I have found his word to be true and I have been blessed


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

God's command to tithe was a PAYMENT, not a gift. It was required. Abraham's tithe was on spoils of war, and he gave away the other 90% and kept nothing for himself. Jacob made a vow with conditions. Neither of these two examples were Holy Tithes. No church teaches Abraham's or Jacob's example.

We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context. By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed at that point.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3

continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment….."

In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Numbers 18:29-30 show that the best part was to be used for the offering before the Lord. Malachi 1:14 shows that the priests gave the worst of the tithe to God instead of the best. Thus we have the robbing God of offerings mentioned in Malachi 3:8.

In Nehemiah 13 we learn that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe; thus, the Levites had to return to their cities since they had no food at the temple.

If you start with Malachi 3:7 you find God speaking about His ordinances - the laws/ordinances contained in Numbers 18 and defined in Leviticus 27:30-33. Thus, Malachi is speaking about THE LAW, which you admit ENDED at the cross. Furthermore, the robbing of God was that THE LEVITES did not get The Lord's tithe. Thus, anyone who paid the tithe to anyone other than a Levites was, AND STILL WOULD BE, robbing God.

IF you really believe you can be blessed by following ONE of the OT laws, then you must also believe you will be curse if you don't follow ALL of the OT laws.

You admit we are not under the law, yet you still teach and collect the tithe. You don't teach Abraham's example of tithing spoils or war (NOT a Holy tithe) and giving away the other 90%. You don't teach Jacob's example of putting conditions on God. You teach the Lord's Tithe from Leviticus 27:30-33 but change the words from crops and animals to income, and you ignore ALL THE TITHING ORDINANCES IN NUMBERS 18!

You make up all the rules to benefit yourself. This is nothing but fraud, and doing it in the name of Jesus!

People are blessed by GIVING freely, NOT paying the Biblical Tithe. To use the word tithe to mean give a tenth of one's income is fraud IF you imply it is The Lord's Tithe you are talking about. IF it belongs to God, then follow God's instructions and stop rationalizing a way to collect it yourself.

You have furnished NOTHING from the Bible to show that God ever authorized anyone to tithe on income, or that God ever authorized anyone to take His tithe to a Christian Church. How can you take God's tithe when God gave it to someone else?

Those who agree with me that tithing is not proper in the Christian Church include the following:

Scholars at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary who published their report on tithing in 2005, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Robert Baker (chief SBC historian), Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.), Phillip Schaff (historian), Alfred Edersheim, James W. Winfree Ministries, C. I. Scofield, Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary), Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary), Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary), Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College), Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible), Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College), Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary, Dalls Theological Seminary, Talbot Bible College, and the list goes on and on.


disappearinghead 6 years ago

Wow, how refreshing it is to see so many free thinking Christians exposing the Christian tithe for the myth and pack of lies it is. I was bound up for years over tithing. I couldn't aford it and ended up in a load of debt. Even had to remortgage the house. Stupid yes, I should have read the warning signs long before it came to that. But hey, when you are told that if you fail to tithe, God either actively or allows a curse to be upon you, I kept tithing out of fear. I was fed all that shit about you are not giving until after you have tithed your 10%, and it's only then that God will bless you. When I stopped 6 years ago I was under such a weight of guilt, believing I was out of God's favour, disappointing Him, lacking faith, or simply not picking up my share of the financial burdon of the church.

However, in recent years I began to suspect something was wrong with this teaching. Everytime someone stood up the front of the church to tell us that the tithe was God's money, that we were robbing God if we failed to give it over, and that the tithe must be from the 1st 10% before all taxes, my heart would just sink lower and lower.

The final straw was when the church presented it's yearly financial statement. The treasurer was quoting the total income and from the size of the membership and calculated that on overage no-one was tithing their 10%. The morning meeting turned into a bullying - all done nicely with smiles of course.

So I decided to study scripture to see if my suspicions could be confirmed. And you know what, the scales fell from my eyes, the weight lifted from me and I found myself happy. I discovered the truth buried beneath the lies. The ones that are so obvious to me now like:

- Abraham never tithed on his own personal property or livestock - then only on two occasions and no record of any other.

- Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first.

- Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today.

- Only food products from the land were titheable.

- Money was never a titheable commodity.

- Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church.

- Tithing in the Church first appears centuries after completion of the Bible.

I also discovered the truth behind Malachi 3:8-11, that most used and abused portion of scripture in Christendom, so loved by the false prophets of TBN and the God Channel. I discovered that it talked of Jesus, that He is the blessing that is poured out from the Windows of Heaven, and nothing to do with money or earthly riches.

I wrote a 26 page document on the subject proving beyond any reasonable doubt that tithing is under the law only, and even then it's purpose was to celebrate the Lord and not prop up a ministry. and e-mailed it to my pastor. You know he never even had the grace to respond. I went back to church 4 weeks later. As he dashed passed me he said, yeah thanks, got your study, it's got some good points, and that was it. I guess when you challenge a belief system at the heart of a church and prove it is unbilbical, you're not going to get a thank you.

So perhaps yes I'm a Johnny-Come-Lately to the party, but now I'm free and free indeed. I still have financial issues, but I can see that the lot of most Christians is tribulation, either financial, heatlth, persecution, etc. There is simply no curse upon us if we don't tithe and we certainly are not robbing God.


Everyday_mom profile image

Everyday_mom 6 years ago

Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God."Genesis 28:20-21

The debate of tithing will never cease to end.

One side says this the other says that. As for me I tithe simply because of the verse above. If Jacob the great Patriach tithe, who am I that I do not tithe.

I too want to be faithfull in the very small thing. Tithing is the least that I could do.

Blessing

PS: Tithing or not tithing let us give as much as we can to the work of the kingdom, to help the poor, the needy and the widows. Are we not called to be One, and to love one another?

Thank you for the great article.


scheng1 6 years ago

That is a form of income tax. Compared to the income tax that we pay now, 10% is nothing!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

To Everyday_mom,

Jacob made a CONDITIONAL vow where Jacob set the terms. Is that what you do when you tithe - put conditions on God?

No church leader teaches following Jacob's example of tithing. Furthermore, show me, IN THE BIBLE, where Jacob ever, in fact, tithed? Just because he vowed to tithe doesn't mean that he actually tithed.

The New Testament neither sets a tenth as a minimum nor does it limit the amount to give.

What is commonly known as The Lord's Tithe is defined in Leviticus 27:30-34. God limited His tithe to certain items. God limited His tithe to crops and animals, ASSETS from God's increase, and NOT from income or anything else that man makes or earns. To call a tenth of one's income as The Lord's Tithe is cheapening God's tithe and it not correct.


vwoman 6 years ago

Gary Arnold: Thank you for letting the Holy Spirit lead and guide you toward understanding. The Bible says, "There is a way that seems right unto a man, but in the end it leads to death." I pray that when reading the Bible that people would allow the Holy Spirit guide them and not their Pastor because so many of them are in error. Gary, continue to stand on the wall and cry out because Jesus is coming soon. God Bless!


gene 6 years ago

give at least a tenth of tithes collected (Numbers 18:25-29) to advance the kingdom of Heaven on projects outside the church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities (1 Timothy 5:3)

This is an outright lie. Tithes are not involved.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

You are right, gene - those statements are not biblical at all.

And why not look at 1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV)

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

In other words, 1 Tim 5:8 is telling us that we should provide for our family FIRST, before we give anything to the church. Those who give to the church first and then can't provide for their family and needy relatives are WORSE THAN A NON-BELIEVER.


Royal Diadem 6 years ago

Every body here had some truth, I really believe that tithing is a personal matter between the person and God. Tithing is suppose to be done in secret,no one is suppose to know what you are giving except you and God. However the best commandment I like the first commandment love God with your whole heart and soul and love your neighbor as you love yourself is better then giving tithes.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Royal Diadem said that "tithing is suppose to be done in secret."

No, GIVING is supposed to be done in secret. There was no secret in the biblical tithe as it was law and required. That's one of the problems with the topic - church leaders have CHANGED THE DEFINITION OF TITHING. God gave His definition in Leviticus 27:30-33 and gave His ordinances in Numbers 18. IF you don't follow His definition and ordinances, it is NOT tithing the Biblical tithe. In the Bible, tithing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving.


Kenya 6 years ago

I need some advice!!!!

My brother has a ministry and he's trying to take it to Europe to evangelize over their. He asked me to sponsor him by giving my tithe to him every week.

Initially I gave it to him, but now that I'm thinking about it more and more, it doesn't seem correct. Tithe is my first fruits too God and I do this by giving it to the church rt? I'm a little hazy if this is okay or not.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

To Kenya,

First of all, God's tithe has NOTHING to do with firstfruits. In Nehemiah 10:37-38 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithe was taken to the Levites, to go into their cities.

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:33, and if you read the scripture, you will find that the tithe was NOT the first of anything. In fact, it was every third animal, not the first.

Next, God gave His tithe to the Levites (read Numbers 18) forever. God NEVER gave anyone else, including the Christian Church, permission to receive His tithe.

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27 and gave His ordinances in Numbers 18. Hebrews 7:18 tells us that the command (to tithe) was disannulled.

You have a choice - follow God's Word and give freely, or follow false teachings and continue to do what you think is tithing. But the fact remains, God's tithe was LIMITED TO crops and animals that came FROM THE HOLY LAND, from God's hand, NOT man's labor.

Church leaders have cheapened God's tithe by teaching that God requires you to tithe on your income. God's tithe was NEVER on anything that man made or earned.


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

It's sad that there is so much confusion on this subject.

The New Testament has plenty of instructions for Christians on giving. Read it and do what it says. There are however, no instructions for Christians on tithing. If God wanted Christians to tithe He would have given clear instructions and there would be no confusion.

Read everything that is written about tithing and you won't find anything that resembles what most churches teach. Like the last poster, I believe you can follow God's Word and choose to give freely or reject the truth and keep tithing, thereby putting yourself back under the law.

Personally I believe that any minister who teaches tithing should be avoided since he is either lacking in knowledge or worse, he knows the truth but chooses to teach a lie.


Justaround 6 years ago

In reading each of the opinions here one of the items that seems to be missing is something bigger than all of this as to what God seeks from each of us; Obedience. Sometimes we can be so heavenly and academically minded that we become more earthly bound. God is so much bigger than this controversy. All the while, each opinion truly feels in their hearts that they are helping their brethern.

But God seeks a people that will be obedient to his word and rewards us with the intentions and calling he has for each of us. For instance fasting and tithing are ancient cousins, each requiring sacrafice and prayer. In the obedience of each, God revels himself in ways that are unique and clear because of the experience. Could it be that Tithing, with the proper frame of heart and mind, is the obedience example to us so that we can bulid on the higher more mature level of Giving. Who knows it may have been one of the drivers that helped God decide to send Jesus Christ to come down make us us realize it. God gave us the example of sacrafice with his only begotten son.

I also believe that there are laws and principals that are ingrained in our every day life that were there before we were born. When God spoke in Mal it was the only time he ever said "test me in this" througout the entire Bible. That I believe to be a law/principal that does in fact exist today. The best example is the success of phalanthorpy. Even non Christians reap the rewards of Tithe and its next generation, Giving.

Obedience and Giving is what I believe to be the truth. You may say that "I am always obedient when God asks me to contribute". Oh really.... do we always hear God when he calls? If we did, there would be no need for admonishment and we would never feel conviction.

There may be a good deal of controversy on if they were talking money or goods. My opinion is back then the goods would have been difficult thing to part with and were a Sacrafice. Today it would certanily be just as true with Money having an equal impact of Sacrafice.

So I believe the Tithe is God's way of getting our heads right and he gives us the example. If Titheing is not for us today, then why did God see to it that it made it in the Bible. And just, I might add being in the last book.

Just my 2 cents.........


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Well said Just. We do not always hear God when He speaks to us therefore we cannot be led to give every single solitary time He is telling us to give. And the philanthropy issue is a valid witness for the tithe as well. And when dealing with tithing in my own life, it was a difficult thing to begin a tithe. Money most definitely had a hold on me (and it still does to a degree). Tithing has most definitely helped me get my head right and is also helping me to get my heart right. But, in the end, it is NOT about us or our obedience or anything of us. It is about Him and what He can get done on this earth through us.

Enjoyed your 2 cents!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "But, in the end, it is NOT about us ... It is about Him ..."

You are absolutely right. IT IS NOT ABOUT US. IT IS ABOUT GOD.

The tithe was ALL ABOUT GOD, not man. The tithe came FROM GOD'S HAND, not man's income. The tithe was HOLY BECAUSE IT CAME FROM GOD'S HAND, not man's income.

It is an INSULT TO GOD to call one's income a Holy Tithe. It is an INSULT TO GOD to call one's income The Lord's Tithe.

Since God defined HIS tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, it is an INSULT TO GOD to change His definition AND HIS ORDINANCES that directs the tithe TO BE TAKEN TO THE LEVITES.

Man has elevated himself to believe he is important enough to actually earn something that God would define as His tithe.

Man has CHEAPENED God's tithe.

Man has REPLACED GOD in the tithing formula with himself. Man has REPLACED God's tithe from HIS miracles to a tithe from man's labor. WHAT A SHAME TO TREAT GOD THIS WAY!

But I know that God knows your heart and will forgive you for your ignorance. You are trying to please God and just don't realize what you do is really an insult to God.

God is NOT HAPPY with all this false teaching.


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

RE: If Titheing is not for us today, then why did God see to it that it made it in the Bible.

There are a lot of rules/commandments that God gave to the people who were under the law of Moses that no longer apply to Christians. Tithing is one of these. These things "made it into the Bible" but that doesn't mean they are required of Christians today.

Read the story of Abraham. Did God ever ask/command Abraham to tithe? No. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. Does that mean Christians must tithe? No. Abraham lived in a tent. Does that mean Christians should live in tents? No.

Was Abraham blessed by God because he tithed? No. In fact, Abraham was already blessed before he tithed, not because of it. Abraham was blessed by God because he believed God.

Scripture is clear, Christians are blessed because they believe God. Faith not works.

Read the OT. ONLY those who were under the law were ever commanded by God to tithe. Do Christians need to obey the tithing requirements of the law? No.

Scripture is clear Christians are no longer under the requirements of the law.

Now read the NT. Does God ever ask/command Christians to tithe? No. He gives us lots of instructions about giving. But no where does He tells us that we must tithe.

Should Christians be obedient to God? Absolutely.

But how can you claim obedience to God through tithing when God NEVER asked/commanded Christians to tithe?

The honest answer is, you can't.

The teaching that Christians must give ten percent of their income to the local church comes from man, not from God.

When you tithe then, your obedience is to man and not to God.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Hey there Gary. Good to see you again. Mean that sincerely.

Wow, you seem to lump all the 'tithe' teaching into one big mass of wickedly false teaching. There are some misguided and uninformed and/or false teachers/preachers/pastors,etc. But that does not make tithing itself a wicked act. The true 'tithe' acknowledges God as THE Source. The ONE and ONLY TRUE Source. That is what the 'tithe' is all about.

When I 'tithe', I am acknowledging to God that He is my only source. My job is not my source. The paycheck is not my source. The money itself is not my source. This same principle is used when I pray. I am acknowledging that I cannot make it through the day without Him. Is that cheapening prayer? The same principle applies to praise and worship. Praise and worship acknowledges God as Creator and Maker and exalted above all. Does this cheapen the praise or worship?

You said .. But I know that God knows your heart and will forgive you for your ignorance. You are trying to please God and just don't realize what you do is really an insult to God. end quote .. Gary I gotta throw this one right back at ya. Have a blessed day!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - Can you give me scripture that you are using to get to your understanding of The Lord's Tithe? I can't find any scripture that shows God requiring or requesting man to give back to Him something that man earns. I realize that everything comes from God, but there is a distinction between what comes from God's hand (labor) and what comes from man's hand (labor). Deuteronomy 8:18 is telling me that God gave ME the ability to make wealth, or earn a living. That is telling me that when I work, I am the one doing the labor, NOT God, since God gave me that ability. The Lord's Tithe is cheapened when we elevate ourselves into believing that we can work and that a tenth of what we labor for is The Lord's Tithe. It isn't.

I am all for giving, giving, and giving even more. But to call it The Lord's Tithe is just flat out wrong.

Furthermore, my experience shows that those who do NOT tithe actually give more than those who do. Since I don't use 10% as any type of guideline, I give according to my heart, what the Spirit directs me to give. I am not influenced in my giving by following something that was abolished in Hebrews 7:5,12,18, done away with because there is a better way.

It's beyond me why people want to hang on to the inferior rather than move up to the superior.


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

God has given Christians no commandments or instructions on tithing. To those who know and understand this, you are blessed.


David 6 years ago

Those that read and study the truth will understand that we are not held under the law of tithing. Paul does tell us to give, to because a law tells us or out of guilt, compulsion but what is on our heart to give.

God judges the heart and not the gift. There is a lot of history about tithing and when it entered the church. I have read some of these examples for tithing that were on this site and could only feel saddened. Carefully read Duet: 14:22-29. Look at every tithing scripture and you will see many interesting things and that we are not held under that law.

Again read what Paul wrote and you will see we are to give. I have seen how scripture has been manipulated to guilt people into tithing. I have seen to often the lack of equality and far too often pastors living very well while many are in need.

Read closely and beware of translations that are used. I have looked at the Holy, King James and NIV and have often looked up the words to get their meaning. Example is 2 Cor. 9:7 Each man should give what he decides in his heart to give, not ReluctantlY or under CompulsioN... read on and see if the rest is happening in your church or do you see inequality?

The enemy is in the camp more then ever, it is in these times we must seek Yahweh for truth for many of these new "bibles" are so dumbed down so much is lost.

Live under the law of tithing and you are bound by the whole law. It is made clear, do diligence is the only way to find truth. The more you truly seek the more you will be amazed at how Yahweh reveals truth and how much man interjects as truth and how much they avoid many truths.

Blessings to all


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

QUOTE .. Can you give me scripture that you are using to get to your understanding of The Lord's Tithe? .. END QUOTE

Read my earlier posts. There is scripture that supports today's tithe.

QUOTE .. I can't find any scripture that shows God requiring or requesting man to give back to Him something that man earns .. END QUOTE

Man can do nothing and is nothing without God. That includes earning a living. The Bible is replete with examples of God giving to man and man giving back to God.

QUOTE .. The Lord's Tithe is cheapened when we elevate ourselves into believing that we can work and that a tenth of what we labor for is The Lord's Tithe. It isn't.. END QUOTE

Where do you find this in the Bible? God gives us all to begin with. When we tithe we are acknowledging that He has indeed given us our earnings. We cannot earn a living without God. Period. You are elevating man above God when you allow yourself to think that man can do anything apart from God. All that is right and good comes from God (this would include our ability to work and earn money).

QUOTE .. Furthermore, my experience shows that those who do NOT tithe actually give more than those who do .. END QUOTE

This I do NOT believe whatsoever. You are overlooking the need for the tithe therefore you would overlook those that are true givers to the Kingdom and it's advancement on earth. This would leave you only seeing what you desire to see, which is that tithers are not givers from the heart, but of the law. Your view is quite restricted in this area as your posts do support. Therefore your 'experience' would be prejudiced.

QUOTE .. it's beyond me why people want to hang on to the inferior rather than move up to the superior.. END QUOTE

So you are claiming superiority in the giving area? Nice, Gary.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - I have read all of your posts on this blog, and you have given absolutely no scripture other than to say that you believe Hebrews 7 supports tithing today.

What is Hebrews 7:18 telling you? What command was disannulled? I believe it has to be Numbers 18 that was disannulled. Otherwise, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood. Numbers 18 is an all or nothing - it established the Levitical priesthood, and gave the ordinances for God's tithe.

All you do is give opinion but not scripture. Please, show me where God EVER commanded anyone to tithe on their income. Please show scripture where God EVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe.

What gives you the right to change God's definition of His tithe, and change his instructions as to where to take His tithe?

I have given scripture. You have given opinion.

Either give scripture to back up your beliefs or admit that you have been falsely taught like so many others. I, myself, was one of those who was falsely taught to tithe, and I thank God that He showed me the truth.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo -

Do you respect God and follow His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33?

Do you respect The Lord and take His tithe to the Levites per His instructions in Numbers 18?

Are you aware that Malachi 3:8-11 was replaced in the New Testament with Galatians 3:10-13?

Are you aware that the Levites were divided into 24 “courses,” or groups, and that they rotated serving at The Temple – thus; each group of Levites worked only about two weeks a year at the temple, and the rest of the year had regular jobs?

Are you aware that the people took the firstfruits to the temple for the priests, and the tithe to the Levites to go into their cities; thus, the people did NOT take the tithe to The Temple? And then the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to The Temple for the priests - and that tenth was the only tithe that went to the storehouse?

Are you aware that The Word shows they had wages and money, even in Genesis, but that God NEVER commanded anyone to tithe on their wages or money?

Are you aware that history proves that no Christian Church taught and collected the tithe on income until the second half of the 1800s?


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

I've got a hub prepared but not published on tithing. I've held back because I thought people had either lost interest in the subject or that the Christians on Hub Pages were more switched on that the sheeples in the church who continue to tithe out of fears of curses or some other lame reference to OT scripture. Perhaps I shall publish after all.

I do not tithe and haven't for a few years now. I am free and at peace. I'm just finaly clearing my debts built up due to years of tithing. Where is this supposed curse from Malachi then? Nowhere, it does not exist for those in the church. Do I give? Yes when God tells me to. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

The church is riddled by lies and schemes to bind people in chains. Tithing is one of them.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Why was there ever even a tithe in the first place? Wasn't the basic point of the tithe .. So God was able to bless His people? Tithing is not even about the law, it is about God blessing His people. You are exhausting in your quest AGAINST the tithe. God is not exhausting. Obedience is up to the individual. Simple enough. Hebrews 7 says Jesus is after the order of Melchisedec. Would you tithe if Jesus were truly the Pastor at your church? No? Seriously?

You continue to expound that there is no verse of scripture that says "TITHING IS COMMANDED". And you have no verse of scripture that says "TITHING IS NOT COMMANDED". Seems it is one of those means of obedience that we must rightly divide the Word of God about and seek Him for answers, heh?

Being under grace does not excuse us from works. Though, our works do nothing to compliment grace. Grace is sufficient in itself. Grace gives us the ability to get the great commission done here on earth. Jesus fulfilled the law and we establish the law on this earth.

God cannot multiply that which we do not entrust to Him.

Gary, you can relax in your endeavors. Tests show that only about 20 percent or less of Christians are faithful tithers. That means 80 EIGHTY percent or more are not tithers.

I know there are people claiming to be going broke because they tithe. But, there are also those (like myself) that can witness that 'tithing' brings blessings and prospering and a sense of 'all is well in my finances because God takes care of my finances'. God takes care of my finances because I have entrusted my finances to Him, in the form of tithing.

People who tithe do not get upset with those that do not tithe (it is understood that most times revelation from God is required first). But, those that do not tithe get heated with those that do. Those that do receive from God will usually persecute those that do not (be it healing or prospering or even salvation).

Tithing should be done on these conditions ..

Right motive

Right information

Right methods

Tithing is not a burden or encumbrance for me (as it was for disappearinghead, et al). Tithing is a privilege and honor for me. Tithing helps me to be constantly reminded that He is my source and that I am nothing and have nothing and can do nothing apart from Him.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Gary

QUOTE .. Abraham's tithe was on spoils of war .. END QUOTE

This is a mistranslation .. the KJV does not say 'spoils'. Think about it .. Don't you think Abraham would only give the choicest of what he had? Not what he had found, but what he felt was a sacrifice or true gift of love. This is more in line with Abraham's character.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - First, Abraham's tithe WAS, in fact, on the spoils of war. That is verified in Hebrews 7. To say otherwise is taking the tenth out of context. He was returning from a war, had the spoils of war with him. The Bible does not say he went home and brought back a tenth of everything he owned.

You said, "Why was there ever even a tithe in the first place? Wasn't the basic point of the tithe .. So God was able to bless His people?"

Answer: The purpose of God's tithe starts with Exodus. God promised the children of Israel the Holy Land. But God decided to give the land with everything on it to only eleven of the twelve tribes as their inheritance, and the tribe of Levi was to inherit the tithe which was paid by the eleven tribes that inherited the land. The result is that the children of Israel, as a whole, merely redistributed the crops and animals so that all of them had food. The Levites were to take care of THE Temple, where the Spirit of God lived. NOW the spirit lives within our bodies. The whole purpose of the tithe ended when Jesus died on the cross.

You "think" you are tithing to God, but you aren't. ONLY crops and animals from the Holy Land are defined as God's tithe. Instead, what you are doing is giving a tenth of your income to the church (NOT God), and are incorrectly calling it a tithe to God. It is NOT the Biblical tithe.

Jesus said when we give to the needy we are giving to Him. Jesus NEVER said when you give to the church you are giving to Him. That's pure nonsense taught by man.

You absolutely refuse to follow the scripture - you ignore God's definition of His tithe, and you ignore God's instructions as to where to take the tithe. Instead, you follow what man has taught you. And yet you actually think you are being obedient to God. That is what is so upsetting to me that people have been brainwashed into thinking they are being obedient to God when in fact they are DISOBEYING GOD by taking His tithe to the church, and being DISOBEDIENT by using man's income for the tithe.

You are totally confused between tithing and giving. You are giving a tenth of your income, NOT paying the Biblical tithe.

I have given scripture to show God's definition of His tithe. I have given scripture to show God's instuctions for His tithe. You continue giving opinions based on emotions, NOT scripture. This makes me very sad indeed, knowing how the masses of people have been brainwashed by dishonest and ignorant church leaders.

I am blessed because of my freewill giving, from the heart. I don't start or limit my giving by a percentage. I give according to what God has put in my heart. And believe me, it's not a petty ten percent. I, personally, am more concerned with what I keep for myself rather than how much I give. In other words, if a family member or close friend is having financial problems, I cannot spend money on myself while they are in need. I will give to help them before I would spend the money on myself. It's all about helping others.

My beef is with dishonest (and ignorant) pastors who teach that tithing is required, and that you are robbing God if you don't give a tenth of your income to their church. Just plain fraud. Even to say that we should give the tithe to God just out of love is wrong because a tenth of your income is NOT God's tithe, AND giving it to the church is NOT giving it to God.

The organized church has become nothing but a corrupt business. I don't mean to say that every local church is corrupt, but I yet to attend one that isn't.

The Bible warns that the love of money is the root of all evil, and the teaching of tithing just shows how evil the church leaders have become.

God gave me the RIGHT to keep all my money, but I choose to be a generous giver.

God gives the pastor the RIGHT to be paid for his services, and most use that right. Paul gave up that right and said he would rather die than sell the gospel.

In other words, pastors have a double standard. They want you to refuse your right to keep your money, but they want to exercise their right to be paid.

I am not only a generous giver, but I teach the gospel, FREE OF CHARGE. I charge nothing when I give classes. I charge nothing for my book that is available as a download. I refuse to be paid for teaching God's Word, and I also refuse donations to my ministry. My ministry is just one thing I do without any compensation to show my love to God and my appreciation for what He has done for me.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Gary, God kept back a part for Himself even in the garden of Eden.

I, too, give freely and generously. My offering is separate from the tithe (I give a weekly offering in addition to rendering to God a tithe). I also buy things for my church and am generous to others (buying them things or treating to a meal, etc). And I practice being led by God on what to give and where and to whom. This has nothing to do with the tithe. NOTHING.

You referenced Paul not taking tithes? But, Paul also thanked those of the church that supported him. Got to rightly divide the Word Gary and not take out of context.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "You referenced Paul not taking tithes? But, Paul also thanked those of the church that supported him. Got to rightly divide the Word Gary and not take out of context."

Give reference where those of the church supported Paul. NOT TRUE. ALL collections were used FOR THE POOR. Study your Bible. Paul WORKED everywhere he went to preach. He not only supported himself, but also those with him, and he also gave to the poor.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

2 Cor. 11:7-9 and 1 Tim. 5:17-18 and Gal. 6:6 and 1 Cor. 16 Paul tells the church to go ahead and gather the collections so he can distribute them when he gets there.

And please Gary, stop accusing me of not studying my Bible or of being led by my emotions or of being brainwashed and not thinking for myself. None of these accusations are true.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "2 Cor. 11:7-9 and 1 Tim. 5:17-18 and Gal. 6:6 and 1 Cor. 16 Paul tells the church to go ahead and gather the collections so he can distribute them when he gets there."

Yes, DISTRIBUTE THEM TO THE POOR SAINTS. You have to put it all together. See:

1 Corinthians 16:1-3

Acts 11:29-30

Romans 15:25-26

Paul didn't have a collection for himself. Everything collected was for the POOR.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo -

Regarding 2 Corinthians 11:7-9 - When Jesus sent out disciples on missionary tours, He directed them to derive shelter and sustenance from those to whom they ministered (Luke 9:3-4; 10:4-7). This apparently became the usual practice for Christian missionaries (1 Cor. 9:4-6; cf. Didache 11:4-6), and it was followed by the false apostles in Corinth. However, Paul and those associated with him (e.g., Barnabas, 1 Cor. 9:6) differed by supporting themselves as best they could without ministerial remuneration (cf. 1 Cor. 4:12; 1 Thes. 2:9; 2 Thes. 3:8). Occasionally Paul accepted unsolicited support from churches to whom he had ministered (e.g., the Philippian church in Macedonia; Phil. 4:15-16). But he did so uneasily (cf. Phil. 4:10-13), calling it “robbery” (2 Cor. 11:8) to take from poor people. He did not want to be a burden to them. THIS WAS NOT COLLECTING A TITHE, but merely an amount for mere sustaining life.

1 Tim. 5:17-18 - Preachers have a right to be paid for services rendered. Therefore, Paul is saying here that you may PAY preachers FOR SERVICES RENDERED. This is NOT a tithe. And this is NOT giving or paying God. Paul, however, said he'd rather die that use that right.

Gal. 6:6 - Anyone who is learning the teaching of God should share all the good things he has with his teacher. NOT a tithe. NOT a salary.

And as I previously covered, 1 Corintians 16:1 is collecting FOR the saints, NOT FROM the saints. It was a collection for the poor.

The reason Roger Williams, founder of the Baptist Church in the US, said there would be NO tithing in the Baptist Church was because it was wrong, AND THAT IT WOULD LEAD TO CAREER PASTORS which would corrupt honest teaching. And that is exactly what has happened. Pastors now have an agenda of collecting the tithe to enrich themselves.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Not all Pastors that collect the tithe are enriching themselves, Gary.

Who told Abraham ten percent? God did. Who told Jacob ten percent? God did. Who told the Israelites ten percent? God did. Abraham is the FATHER .. the PATRIARCH .. the HEAD .. the EXAMPLE .. the PROTOTYPE .. the ROOT .. the FOUNDER .. the ORIGINATOR. Abraham would HAVE to be a tither. If God told Abraham's descendants to tithe, and God called Abraham the father of the Israelites, then Abraham would have been a tither. Or God could not rightly call Abraham 'the father' could He?


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

RE: Who told Abraham ten percent? God did.

Please prove this. Where in scripture does God tell Abraham to tithe or give ten percent?


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Ada,

Deut. 14:22 Num. 18:24 and many others. Tithing is God's idea. If God did not tell Abraham to tithe, then that would mean that God got the idea from Abraham (and this is ridiculous and not within the character of God).

So, therefore, we deduce that Abraham got the idea of 'tithing' from God (long before God made it legal), since God instituted the tithe in the first place.

Abraham was following God's laws BEFORE God gave the law.


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

You are making assumptions and then building a teaching based on those assumptions. Why should I accept your assumptions as truth? Are you smarter, more spiritual? Do you have some special revelation?

In fact, the Bible doesn't tell us whether God told Abraham to tithe or not. Therefore, we can't assume He told Abraham to tithe, and build a teaching or doctrine based on that assumption.

In fact, the Bible doesn't tells us whether Christians should tithe or not. Therefore, we can't assume that God wants Christians to tithe, and build a teaching or doctrine based on that assumption.

Never accept a teaching or doctrine built upon inferences and assumptions. If it isn't taught in God's Word or if it contradicts God's Word, don't believe it.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Not making assumptions. This is not an assumption, it is reasoning. Sorry you miss this truth.

If Abraham did not get the 'tithe' idea from God then God got the 'tithe' idea from Abraham. It is that simple, since they both had the same idea.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "If Abraham did not get the 'tithe' idea from God then God got the 'tithe' idea from Abraham. It is that simple, since they both had the same idea."

Faulty logic.

First of all, if you study Biblical history, you will find that in the days of Abraham, it was custom to give a tenth of war spoils to the king.

You take scripture and read into it to make it say what you want it to say.

Abraham was blessed before there is any evidence in scripture of his giving a tenth. And there is absolutely NO evidence in the scripture to show that Abraham gave a tenth more than one time - on PAGAN spoils of war, NOT a Holy tithe, and NOT to God.

Since Biblical history proves that there was a CUSTOM of giving a tenth of war spoils, the kings had already come up with the idea of a tenth.


adayatech profile image

adayatech 6 years ago from USA

Debradoo, I asked you a simple question. "Where does God tell Abraham to tithe?" You replied, "Deut. 14:22 Num. 18:24 and many others." Neither of these scriptures mention Abraham. So you did not answer my question honestly.

FACT: There is no recorded conversation between God and Abraham about tithing.

Your "reasoning" is based on the "assumption" that God spoke to Abraham about tithing, not on fact.

I am truly sorry that you don't understand this truth.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Tithing did not originate in the Bible (and nobody claims that it did). It was a well-known pagan practice from Phoenicia, Egypt, Canaan, Mesopotamia and lands around the Fertile Crescent. It was a mandatory customary tax to a pagan god or ruler. The Roman Empire continued this tradition by requiring its defeated subject nations, like Israel, to return the spoil of the first tithe of the land to them! From a comparison of discussions of verse 21, Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was in obedience to this old Arab war custom and was not a command from Yahweh. Evidently, the Arab war custom specified that ten percent of the spoils of war be given to the local priest-king, while the ninety percent belonged to the victor. Abraham was OBLIGATED to pay a special one-time tithe-tax of the spoils of war. While those spoils usually belonged to an enemy, in this case, they belonged to Melchizedek’s ally, ambassador-friend, and possible subject, the king of Sodom (and those he represented).

Under ARAB custom, the spoil-tithe was TEN percent, 10%. However, under the Mosaic Law, the spoil-tithe was only ONE percent (1%) to the Levites (Numbers 31:27,28) and only one tenth of one percent (.1%) to the priests (Numbers 31:29,30).

Some believe that this passage demonstrates that tithing is commanded to the New Testament church because it existed before the law, just as marriage was before the law. But this comparison is not valid. Marriage preceded the law, was included in it, and was also repeated after the law. However, tithing, Sabbath observance and unclean foods also preceded the law, were included in it, but were not repeated after Calvary as commandments to the Christian church. Abraham’s spoils-of-war tithe was:

One: Not a commandment of the LORD, but an observance of a common pagan custom.

Two: Not of his own personal property, but was only of the spoils of war from unbelievers.

Three: Not a Mosaic holy land tithe; he returned 100% to Canaanites.

Four: Not a means of wealth through Arab law-keeping.

Five: Not quoted to support tithing for Hebrews or Christians.

Six: Not a condition of receiving God’s blessings promised through faith in surrounding chapters.

Seven: Not to Abraham’s LORD, Yahweh, but to a pagan priest who did not know and worship God as LORD. Melchizedek probably worshiped Baal as Most High God and possessor of heaven and earth. As a Canaanite priest-king, Melchizedek worshiped idols of Baal, offered child sacrifices, and promoted incest and sex with animals as part of pagan worship ritual. In paying this mandatory tribute, it is unfortunate that Abraham’s pagan tithe-tax would have been used to promote such sin. (See Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy 18:9-14.)

One recent theologian has pointed out that verses 22-25 constitute a vow. If Abram made this vow prior to rescuing Lot, then the tenth which he gave to Melchizedek could also be explained as a free-will vow. See David Croteau, Ph.D. dissertation, 2005., SEBTS.

The above came from Should the Church Teach Tithing by Russell Kelly, Ph.D.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Ada .. If Sally has a red shirt and a blue shirt and a white shirt only, and she is not wearing the blue shirt or the white shirt we can know she is wearing the red shirt. This is a logical conclusion.

Gary .. C'mon .. If you do not believe that 'tithing' originated in the Bible then you are saying God stole and used a pagan practice and directed His people to follow???? ROFL

This is more absurd than I can actually believe someone to say. wow Gary. Look out your sheep's clothing is coming unraveled.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - Do you think your Bible includes EVERYTHING that happened? Not originating in the Bible does not mean it didn't come from God. There is much left out of your Bible. That is why it is sometimes necessary to study Biblical history to help fill in some of the missing parts.

Also, Debradoo, you have a bad habit of not answering questions from others on this blog. We try to answer all your arguments, but you ignore most of ours.

Please explain what Hebrews 7:18 means to you. EXACTLY what command was disannulled?

Furthermore, my research indicates that there are only TWO theologians in the world who wrote their thesis on tithing in order to get their Ph.D. - Russell Earl Kelly, Ph.D., and David Croteau, Ph.D. BOTH of these scholars have written a book on tithing, and both conclude that there is NO place for tithing in the Christian Church. Many other theologians with a Ph.D. agree with their conclusions. Before working towards his Ph.D., Dr. Kelly was a SDA pastor. Dr. Croteau now teaches at a Baptist siminary.

I, myself, have spent THOUSANDS OF HOURS, not dozens or hundreds, but thousands of hours on this topic and have studied material from both Dr. Kelly and Dr. Croteau as well as deep study of the KJV of the Bible using Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionaries as well as a ton of other research material. Being a retired accountant and tax auditor, I knew something was wrong the first time I heard a pastor say you tithe on your gross income. I doubted the pastor even knew the definition of gross income. In fact, I haven't found a pastor yet who does know the definition of gross income. That alerted me that something was wrong with their teaching.

Few pastors have their Ph.D. in theology. I have attended only one church where the pastor has his Ph.D., and in a private meeting, he told me that he knows tithing ended at the cross, but the church needs the money so he feels compelled to lie to the church. Since hearing that come from him, I have found MANY OTHER Christians who have gotten the exact same answer from their pastor.

Just a study of the history of tithing may alarm you. The SDA said in their original meetings that tithing ended at the cross, but they needed a way to support their denomination. They said they would use the Levitical tithe as a guide to come up WITH THEIR OWN TITHING RULES and then asked the members to accept it AS THOUGH it were God's plan for the Christian Church. Now they teach it AS God's plan. JUST PLAIN FRAUD. The history of tithing in other denominations is just as alarming.

Tithing is wrong, and those who continue to practice tithing are diminishing what Jesus did for us on the cross.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "Ada .. If Sally has a red shirt and a blue shirt and a white shirt only, and she is not wearing the blue shirt or the white shirt we can know she is wearing the red shirt. This is a logical conclusion."

Again, your so-called "logical conclusion" is not without fault.

Maybe Sally isn't wearing a shirt at all. Maybe she is wearing a dress, or some other garment. Or, maybe Sally is topless.

You see, you draw conclusions without having all the facts. You use the same type of flawed conclusions when it comes to tithing.


inspired 6 years ago

First I want to say I just found this web site and was reading the posts. Thank you Gary Arnold for all you shared. We want to remind ourselves that Jesus Christ came from the linage of David. David himself ate from the shewbread in the holy of holies and was not struck dead. Why????? because God made a covenant with David. Psa 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Psa 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psa 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psa 89:8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Consider this

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Act 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah which means tribe of Praise, not from the tribe of levi or levitical priesthood. This is enough to get excited about. I pray this revelation touches many people. We are free, whom the Son has set free is free indeed. Gentiles were never under the levitical laws, to offer sacrifices. Thank God for the Cross the final sacrifice for our sins. We are free.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Those that have a problem with tithing or find tithing to be bondage, do not actually have a problem giving ten percent of their income (they might think they do, but alas, they do not). What they have a problem with is the 90 percent that is left. They have not learned to manage their money. Tithing is not the problem, money management is the problem for those that teach against paying the tithe. Going into debt because one is paying a tithe would be a money management problem. Not a tithe problem.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Actually, Debradoo, as a Certified Professional Money and Finance Minister, I preach that good financial stewardship begins with prayer. I teach that praying over expenditures is every bit as important as praying over giving. Those who pray before they spend, and follow the guidance of The Spirit, will find they have much more left to give.

Churches I have attended only talk about the 10%. The 90% left is 9 times as important as the 10% yet the 90% is seldom spoken of. God wants us to be good stewards of 100% of our income.

So once again, you speak without knowledge as you obviously have no idea what many non-tithers teach.

I teach that God is more concerned with what one keeps for himself rather than how much is given. In other words, if I make $100,000 and give $10,000, I don't believe God would be very happy with me because that would leave $90,000 for myself. Percentages don't work in the New Testament.

God wants us to SACRIFICE in our giving. For some, that could mean far less than ten percent. For others, it will mean far in excess of ten percent.

At no time did Jesus say that giving to the church is giving to Him. Giving to the poor is giving to Him.

Those who attend a local church have a moral obligation to "pay their share or more" by a donation.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

I do not need the knowledge of the non-tither to present the truth. The only knowledge I am required to know is the truth. An offering can only come AFTER paying the tithe. The offering comes from the 90 percent and is equally as important as the tithe. But, without a tithe, there can be no offering. As you stated Gary, a donation is what is being made by those that refuse to tithe and this is the truest thing you have said thus far.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo,

Can you either give scripture to back up your nonsense or admit that you are wrong?

Give scripture to show that Christians are supposed to tithe.

Give scripture to show that God has given the Christian Church permission to accept His tithe.

Give scripture to show that God ever requested or commanded anyone to tithe on income.

You have absolutely NOTHING to back up your claims but continue to repeat the same old thing without scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 (NIV)

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:

Malachi 3:5 (NIV)

5 “So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

God will judge those pastors who say tithing is required or that His Word teaches that giving begins with the tithe for they are DEFRAUDING WORKERS OF THEIR WAGES.

When you give a tenth of your income to your local church, don’t insult God by calling your gift The Lord’s Tithe.

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. The Lord’s tithe is defined as a tenth of crops and animals which are miracles of God. God NEVER commanded or requested anyone to give to Him a tenth of what man makes or earns. God said His tithe was Holy. Why was it Holy? Because it came from God.

The tithe was to GIVE BACK to God a tenth of what came from God’s hand, not man’s hand. You can’t “give back” to God something that you, yourself, earned.

In Numbers 18 God commanded that His tithe be taken to The Levites forever. If you don’t take The Lord’s Tithe to the Levites, you have rebelled against God by being disobedient to His command.

At no time did God, in His Word, give the Christian church permission to receive His tithe. You don’t have permission to take His tithe to a church, and your pastor does not have permission to receive His tithe.

At no time did Jesus say that giving to the church was giving to Him. Jesus did say that when you give to the needy, you are giving to Him. (Matthew 25:42-45)

In 1 Timothy 5:8 God tells us that we should take care of our family first. We learn from this verse that if we give to the church first, and then don’t have enough left to take care of our family, we are worse than an unbeliever.

The New Testament Church is to be financed by free-will gifts, not tithing. Tithing was the way God provided for financing the Levitical priesthood. In Hebrews 7:5,12,18 we learn that the command that established the Levitical priesthood (Numbers 18), which included tithing, was disannulled. To say otherwise would mean we are still under the Levitical priesthood.

In Malachi 3:5 God tells the priests that he will judge those who defraud the worker of his wages. Pastors who teach that tithing is required today, or that the Bible teaches that ten persent is the starting point for giving, are defrauding the worker of his wages.

Don’t fall for this false teaching. Study The Word for yourself. Before you ever again give to your church AND CALL IT TITHING, please find the scriptures that support:

1 – tithing on your income

2 – taking God’s tithe to your local church

3 – tithing in the New Testament Church

Remember, the New Testament Church doesn’t begin until after Calvary; therefore, Matthew 23:23 is still referring to the Old Testament Law.

I challenge any tither to show me scripture to support tithing today.

Why is it that in MORE THAN TWO YEARS no pastor nor anyone else has been able to show me scripture to support tithing in the Christian Support?

Why must tithers continue to rebel against God's Word? Why must tithers continue to be disobedient to God's Word?

Gave gave His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 and He gave His instructions in Numbers 18. YOU DON'T FOLLOW HIS DEFINITION OR HIS INSTUCTIONS. SHAME ON YOU! SHAME ON YOU A HUNDRED TIMES!

SHAME ON THOSE PASTORS WHO CONTINUE TO LIE ABOUT TITHING.

You are insulting God by your refusal to follow His Word.

Again, SHAME ON YOU!

All it takes is to OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND STUDY IT. IF you really have studied the topic, I submit you would be giving me scripture to back up your comments.

Leviticus 27:30-33 - The Lord's Tithe

Numbers 18 - The ordinances for The Lord's Tithe

Deuteronomy 14:22-27 - The Festival Tithe

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 - The Poor Tithe

Genesis 14:8-24 - Abraham's Tithe

Genesis 28:10-22 - Jacob's Vow to Tithe

Nehemiah 10:37-38 - Shows that the firstfruits went to the temple for the priests and the tithe went to the Levites to go into their cities; therefore, firstfuits have nothing to do with the tithe

Hebrews 7:5,12,18 - Shows that the command was disannulled

Leviticus 25:3-7 - NO TITHING EVERY SEVEN YEARS

And then all the books that have been published giving the history of tithing, including:

IN PURSUIT OF THE ALMIGHT’S DOLLAR: A History of Money and American Protestantism by James Hudnut-Beumler.

A HISTORY OF TITHES by the Rev. Henry William Clarke, B.A.

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH by Philip Schaff.

And what do you furnish? NOTHING BUT YOUR OWN WORDS with NOTHING TO BACK THEM UP WITH.

This is really a no-brainer. All it takes is a little study and The Spirit.


Techwriter21 6 years ago

I'm an athesit. I love the title "what does the bible say about tithing?" Did you know that the bible also says we should stone to death those who are homosexual and work on the sabbath. So taking and believing anything from that silly book is ludacris


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Gary, give me scripture that says DO NOT TITHE TODAY, IT IS OLD TESTAMENT. You cannot. And tithing is a no brainer and you back nothing up with your accusations against the tithe. Do some serious study and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in your studies. And you will see that God has named both clean and unclean animals for sacrificial purpose. The clean (the first) redeems the rest. The first will set the stage for what happens to the rest. It is God's MO. God has reserved for Himself the first. Period.

Tithing is not about heaven or hell but it is about success or failure. Success or failure in this life and the life hereafter. What we do today determines what we will do in His Kingdom to come.

Gary, ask yourself .. What if I AM wrong and God DOES require a tithe? Go on .. ask. And get to know God on a more personal level, Gary.

And Techwriter .. you too, ask yourself .. What if I AM wrong?? And the Bible is not silly or ludacris? Get to know God Tech before you judge Him.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - Once again you write without any scripture to back up your comments.

PRO-TITHERS BEWARE

In Numbers 18 God commanded that His tithe be taken to the Levites. The Levites were the servants to the priests. They were the singers, the musicians, the janitors, the carpenters, the workers at the Temple. The Levites were to take a tenth of the tithe to the priests. Is that how your church follows God’s law? Do you take The Lord’s Tithe to the singers, musicians, etc. and let them give a tenth to the pastor?

Numbers 18:27 proves that neither wages nor income could be tithed on for The Lord’s Tithe. Without this interpretation, Numbers 18:27 has no meaning and is only taking up space.

The definition of The Lord’s Tithe is NOT ten percent. It is a TENTH. Here is the difference. Since God said to tithe every TENTH animal, if there were only 9 new born animals that year, NOTHING was tithed. They were not instructed to tithe ten percent of the value of the animals.

The tithe was NEVER on man’s increase. God defined His tithe to be a tenth of His increase. That is why it is HOLY!

1 Timothy 5:8 tells us that if we give first and then don’t have enough left to take care of our family, we are worse than a non-believer.

Tithers – you are SINNING against God when you ignore His command and take His tithe to the church.

Pro-tithers – you must think that God didn’t know the future and therefore didn’t provide for the future in His Word. You must think that God expects YOU to change His definition and commands to fit your needs. I BELIEVE THAT GOD GAVE US HIS WORD TO FOLLOW, NOT TAMPER WITH.

Matthew 5:18 tells you that if you change even one dot or one tittle and teach it to man, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

In Malachi 3:5 God threatened to come near you for judgment for those who defraud laborers of their wages.

Pro-tithers – show me one verse where God ever told anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned (wages or income). Show me one verse where God ever gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe. You, my friends, are REBELLING AGAINST GOD by ignoring His Word and doing what you believe is better. SHAME ON YOU!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "Gary, give me scripture that says DO NOT TITHE TODAY, IT IS OLD TESTAMENT. You cannot."

Can you give me scripture that says DO NOT KILL DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN TODAY, IT IS OLD TESTAMENT? You cannot.

Can you give me scripture that says DO NOT TAKE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES TODAY, IT IS OLD TESTAMENT? You cannot.

Apparently you don't know how to interpret the Bible. ONLY THAT which is carried over into the New Testament is valid today. There were over 600 laws/commands in the Old Testament. The New Testament does tell us which ones no longer apply. Rather, the New Testament teaches which ones STILL apply.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

I meant to say The New Testament does NOT tell us which ones no longer apply.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo, ask yourself .. What if I AM wrong and God really meant what He said when He said to take His tithe to the Levites?

Debradoo, ask yourself .. What if Gary is right and I am insulting God and cheapening His tithe by calling a tenth of my income His tithe?

Debradoo, ask yourself .. What if I have been duped by false teachers who have brainwashed me into believing I am to take my money to them?

Debradoo, ask yourself .. Can I find ANY scripture to back up my belief that I should tithe on my income and take it to the church?

Be honest, Debradoo. IF you could find scripture to back up your comments you would have referenced them.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo said, "Gary, give me scripture that says DO NOT TITHE TODAY, IT IS OLD TESTAMENT. You cannot."

Debradoo, give me scripture that says you should have EVER tithed. You can't even find scripture in the Old Testament telling all the people to tithe.

Jesus set an example for others to follow. Jesus was a carpenter and earned wages. Can you show me any example of Jesus tithing on His income as a carpenter?

Paul was a tent maker. Can you should me any example of Paul tithing on his income?

Peter was a fisherman. Can you should me any example of Peter tithing on the fish he caught?

Can you show me an example of the laborers and wage earners tithing on their income?

ONLY Israelite farmers tithed, and ONLY on crops and animals. NO ONE ELSE TITHED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

You ask me to show you where we are told to stop tithing, but you can't even show me where we were ever told to start tithing. YOU'VE BEEN DUPED BY DISHONEST OR IGNORANT PASTORS.


2besure profile image

2besure 6 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

Great points on this hub. Tithing was practiced even before the Law was given. Under the New Testament we are not under the Law but grace, to give and to give cheerfully. Giving is a must, and God promised that it would be given back to us, pressed down, shaken together and running over. It is also very important with what attitude we give.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

Wow, after several months Debbie and Gary are still arguing. For all those who have managed to read this far, I offer the following summary:

Debbie has been brought up in a church that tells her to tithe in orde to recieve blessings if she does, and curses if she doesn't. It has been so ingrained in her that she cannot accept any opposing view. She does not offer any scripture to support the argument.

Gary offers scripture after scripture to support his argument. The same ones over and over because at no time does Debbie ever acknolwledge them or address them.

Psonnally, I'm with Gary on this one.


Disappearinghead profile image

Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

I have just read something by Debbie that I must take exception to. She says that the problem people who don't tithe have is with the 90% they keep. Their problem is money management and the debts they may be in are their own faults entirely. I guess the line is that if they tithed and money managed, they would not have problems.

Well here in the UK, approximatetly 43% of our earnings are taken in various forms of taxation and the church demands a further 10%. So the believer now has to live on less than half of what they earn. Very many people on low incomes can barely get by as it is (the cost of petrol/gas here is £5.54/$8.01 per gallon for example) so when they cough up another 10% (by an argument based on fear not scripture) is it any wonder they may end up in debt? When the government sets tax rates or state benefits according to one's income to ensure eveyone has a basic standard of living, they do not account for the 10% tithe. Therefore, if the church demands this money, very many people are unable to meet their basic needs.

The first council of Jerusalem instructed the gentile believers to refrain from sexual immorality, eating blood, or food sacrificed to idols. They did not say "Oh by the way, you should also adopt the Jewish law of tithing, albeit we are going to change the definition of that tithe".

I wrote up a study on the tithe using all the scriptures and sort of arguments put forward by Gary here, then sent it to my pastor. He never had the courtesy to acknowledge my study, let alone read it. I guess he could no longer defend his postion or that of the denomination, but didn't want to admit or say publically. Suffice to say I left the church. No regrets.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Disappearing head .. It does not one iota of good to give scripture to the anti-tither (you might want to check out where me and others DID provide scripture). They refuse to acknowledge whatever scripture(s) given them (like casting pearls before swine). Why? Because, they are anti-tithers .. get it? ANTI. Therefore they will find a way to dispute and to disregard whatever scripture is given. They DO NOT WANT TO TITHE, therefore they do not WANT TO BELIEVE IN TITHING. They are not looking for truth, rather an excuse NOT TO TITHE (and trying to use the Bible to make their case). And they provide scripture because they fear being alone in their beliefs. Therefore they try to back up their beliefs using the Word of God. But, they are failing because they are not understanding God and His ways. They got the scriptures down pat but the message is lost on them. (Jesus ran into this problem alot.)

And the scriptures that Gary has provided here for the benefit of those that want to find an excuse NOT to tithe .. Well, let me just say .. It is like dangling candy before a baby. It attracts flies like honey. It seems awful suhweet .. eh?


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - You remind me of the person who says, "Don't confuse me with the facts."

I, like most, was taught tithing in the church. I, like most, believed everything the pastor said.

It wasn't until I was asked to teach a finance class in Sunday School that I started to research the topic. That was less than 2 1/2 years ago. I couldn't believe what I was finding and was hoping my pastor could show me that what I thought I was reading was in error. I had a meeting with my pastor and told him of my findings. He said he didn't think I was correct, but he would research tithing himself. He did, and he admitted that HE HAD BEEN WRONG FOR TWENTY YEARS!

Another pastor I trusted agreed to have a meeting with me. He admitted that I was right, but said he HAD to teach tithing because people just don't want to give.

Another pastor I trusted agreed to have a meeting with me. A short time later he stopped teaching tithing.

Not all denominations teach tithing. In fact, not all Baptist Churches teach tithing. But some denominations make it a requirement that the pastor teach it weather they believe it is correct or not, such as the Seventh-day Adventist.

I, myself, am a VERY GENEROUS GIVER. I give a lot more than most in the church. A LOT MORE.

I have found that tithers are the stingy ones. They give their precious little ten percent, and then maybe a little more, and think they have done their part. I have news for them. God may have wanted them to give 20% or 30% or more.

Just keep your closed mind and continue being disobedient to God's Word by tithing to the church.

It absolutely amazes me how tithers fights so hard but NEVER show ANY scripture to support tithing on income, to the Christian Church, or in the New Testament.

God warns you of false teaches but you ignore all the warning signs. PURE ARROGANCE AND IGNORANCE.


Divine Diva 6 years ago

I agree that tithing is very much so for us and that God wants us to give. Lord help me to do better with my giving.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Divine Diva - SCRIPTURE PLEASE.

I can't believe how many give comments without any scripture in these blogs. Is it because you never bother to open your Bible and study it? Is it because you believe whatever you have been taught and don't feel a need to check it out for yourself?

VERY SAD that so many have NO scripture to backup their own beliefs.


Baby Margaret 6 years ago

it is important to pay tithing because god also said it in the bible that our interest of ,which is our onetenth that will should pay it inside the church. and some people always says that the tenth that has been paid to the church that is the pastor that want to spend it ,and they don't know that its meant to the so that the can be brought up.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Baby Margaret - Give scripture where God said we should pay tithes. Give scripture where the tithe should be paid inside the church.

You obviously haven't opened your Bible to look at what the scripture says. You, like so many others, have been taught a bunch of lies.

God warns us of false teachers, but this blog proves that Christians are gullible and believe whatever their pastor tells them. You ignore God's Word and follow what man teaches. VERY, VERY SAD.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Gary says .. Tithing could NEVER be on income, according to the Word..end quote

THE BIBLE SAYS .. Deut. 14:24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the TITHE. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the MONEY in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen.

Gary says .. ONLY the Levites had a right to collect the tithe.. end quote

THE BIBLE SAYS .. Heb. 7:6 6 But Melchizedek, who was not a descendant of Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham.

Gary says .. The purpose of The Lord's tithe was to support the LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD. Once that priesthood ended, there was no further purpose for the tithe.. end quote

THE BIBLE SAYS .. Deut.14:23 Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. DOING THIS WILL TEACH YOU TO ALWAYS FEAR THE LORD YOUR GOD.

Prov. 3:9 Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the best part of everything you produce.

Gary says .. Actually, the tithe WAS ABOLISHED in the New Testament.. end quote

THE BIBLE SAYS .. Matt. 5:17 Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to ABOLISH the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to ACCOMPLISH their purpose.

Gary says .. The New Testament teaches that we should give according to how much we have.

THE BIBLE SAYS .. 41 Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. 42 Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins. 43 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. 44 For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given EVERYTHING she had to live on.”

Gary says .. The ONLY tithe that God ever claimed to be His CAME FROM GOD, from God’s labor, from God’s increase (crops and animals) and NEVER did God ever command anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned.. end quote

THE BIBLE SAYS .. 1 Chr. 29:14 But who am I, and who are my people, that we could give anything to you? Everything we have has come from you, and we give you only what you first gave us!

Psalm 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it. The world and all its people belong to him.

John 15:5 Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. FOR APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

Gary says .. Melchizedek probably worshiped Baal as Most High God and possessor of heaven and earth. As a Canaanite priest-king, Melchizedek worshiped idols of Baal, offered child sacrifices, and promoted incest and sex with animals as part of pagan worship ritual. In paying this mandatory tribute, it is unfortunate that Abraham’s pagan tithe-tax would have been used to promote such sin.

THE BIBLE SAYS .. Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, brought Abram some bread and wine.

Ps. 110:4 The Lord has taken an oath and will not break his vow:“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

Heb. 6:20 Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Heb. 7:1 This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of God Most High. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against the kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him.

Heb. 7:2 Then Abraham took a tenth of all he had captured in battle and gave it to Melchizedek. The name Melchizedek means “king of justice,” and king of Salem means “king of peace.

Here is some scripture to chew on, Gary. :-)


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - I am so happy you have come up with some scripture. Now, let me clarify some of my comments.

There are three commands in the Bible regarding tithes, but only ONE of them is known as The Lord's Tithe.

Leviticus 27:30-33 - The Lord's Tithe aka The Levitical Tithe - This is the ONLY tithe that God claimed “is the Lord’s” and it is the only tithing command that pastors use as the basis for teaching tithing.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27 - The Festival Tithe. You quote this one, but are confused into think they could tithe money. Not so. The tithe was a tenth OF THE CROPS, plus they were to add the first-born animals (not a tenth). If they had to far to carry, they could convert (sell) their tithe, get the money, and purchase their tithe for the festival. The tithe was always the crops, not the money or income.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 - The Poor Tithe aka The Three-Year tithe.

I again say the tithe itself could NEVER be money or on income. Numbers 18:27 proves that neither wages nor income could be tithed on for The Lord’s Tithe. Without this interpretation, Numbers 18:27 has no meaning and is only taking up space.

ONLY the Levites were given permission to receive THE LORD'S TITHE per Numbers 18. No pastor teaches you should follow the Festival Tithe or the Poor Tithe.

The Lord's Tithe was the ONLY tithe that was commanded by God to support a priesthood, and it ended at the cross per Hebrews 7:5,12,18. Don't confuse this with abolishing the entire law, I am merely saying The Levitical priesthood along with the tithe ended. If it did not, the Levitical priesthood would still be in force, Jesus could not be high priest, and we couldnot be priests. The Lord's Tithe was for the Levites and priests who kept up The Temple where the Spirit of God lived. Now our bodies are the Temple, and the Spirit of God lives within us.

The New Testament teaches that we should give according to our means (according to what we have). In fact, it says if we give from what we do not have, God doesn't accept it. But even so, your own comments merely agreed with my statement.

The New Testament begins AFTER Jesus died on the cross, not when He was born.

God made a distinction between His labor and man's labor in Deuteronomy 8:18 where God says He gave us THE ABILITY to make wealth - the ABILITY to work and earn a living. When I work, it is MY labor, not God's labor, because, by the grace of God, HE gave me THAT ABILITY. God NEVER commanded anyone to tithe on anything that came from that ability; i.e. man's labor.

The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. The goods that Abraham gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abraham:

Genesis 14:21 (NIV) - The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abraham if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself. The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him and those he represented.

Genesis 14:22-24 (NIV) - 22But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abraham also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom and those he represented.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abraham acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abraham, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek. This would seem that Abraham did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abraham not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion: Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him. That is NOT an example for Christians to follow today.

There is NO example, anywhere, in the Bible where God commanded anyone to tithe on money or income. Many say that in Biblical times they didn’t have money and that the economy was based on bartering of goods and services. That is not so. The Bible shows they not only had money, but that money was used as a common way of doing business.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few example from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals

Deuteronomy 14:24-26 (KJV)

24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY ABRAHAM

Genesis 23:15-16 (KJV)

15My lord, hearken unto me: the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver; what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead.

16And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the audience of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY JACOB

Genesis 33:19 (KJV)

19And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for an hundred pieces of money.

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES

Genesis 37:28 (KJV)

28Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE

Exodus 30:14-16 (KJV)

14Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

15The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

16And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM

Leviticus 5:15 (KJV)

15If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES:

Genesis 29:15 (KJV)

15And Laban said unto Jacob, Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be?

Genesis 30:28 (KJV)

28And he said, Appoint me thy wages, and I will give it.

Genesis 31:7-8 (KJV)

7And your father hath deceived me, and changed my wages ten times; but God suffered him not to hurt me.

8If he said thus, The speckled shall be thy wages; then all the cattle bare speckled: and if he said thus, The ringstreaked shall be thy hire; then bare all the cattle ringstreaked.

Genesis


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

continued:

Genesis 31:41 (KJV)

41Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle: and thou hast changed my wages ten times.

Exodus 2:9 (KJV)

9And Pharaoh’s daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it.

Leviticus 19:13 (KJV)

13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

In Malachi 3:5 God threatened to come near you for judgment for those who defraud laborers of their wages.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today’s society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is here in Genesis:23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, …

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God’s people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money’s place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

Yet at NO TIME did God ever command anyone to tithe money or on their income.

You must think that God didn’t know the future and therefore didn’t provide for the future in His Word. You must think that God expects YOU to change His definition and commands to fit your needs. I BELIEVE THAT GOD GAVE US HIS WORD TO FOLLOW, NOT TAMPER WITH.

Matthew 5:18 tells you that if you change even one dot or one tittle and teach it to man, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

In Malachi 3:5 God threatened to come near you for judgment for those who defraud laborers of their wages.

Now SHOW ME WHERE GOD COMMANDS ANYONE TO TITHE ON THEIR INCOME? SHOW ME WHERE GOD EVER GAVE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH PERMISSION TO RECEIVE HIS TITHE.

Here is how the definition of the word tithe has changed over the years.

DEFINITION OF THE WORD TITHE – from Strongs Hebrew Dictionary

A tenth, tenth part

That’s it. The word tithe is a mathematical term and nothing else. The word has nothing to do with God, giving to God, paying to God. Therefore, when reading Genesis regarding Abraham and Jacob, the word tithe is a mathematical term only.

DEFINITION OF THE LORD’S TITHE – Leviticus 27:30-33

God, Himself, defined His tithe. This is the ONLY tithe that God claimed “is the Lord’s.”

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

In other words, God defined His tithe as coming from ONLY crops and animals.

DEFINITION OF THE FESTIVAL TITHE – Deuteronomy 14:22-27

22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

In verse 23 The Word adds, “the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks,” but notice, NOT a tenth of thy herds and flocks.

DEFINITION OF THE THREE-YEAR TITHE aka THE POOR TITHE – Deuteronomy 14:28-29

28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates

MAN’S DEFINITION OF THE TITHE – from made-made dictionaries

MacMillan's Modern Dictionary - 1938 edition: Tithe - tenth part, or any small part, of produce, profits, or the like paid as a tax or as a voluntary contribution, esp. for religion or charitable use.

The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition - 1994: Tithe - A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary - latest edition: Tithe - a tenth part of something paid as a voluntary contribution or as a tax especially for the support of a religious establishment.

As you can see, just since 1938 the definition has changed from a tenth part of produce or profits, to a tenth part of one's annual income, to a tenth part of something and all three definitions include something to do with the support of the church or a religious establishment.

Tell me, are YOU following God's definition OR are you following man's definition?


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Only the one that makes the law can repeal the law. Therefore God has no need nor obligation to command us to "keep tithing", since nobody argues that He put this law into practice to begin with. However, He DOES have an obligation to make the command, "DO NOT keep this tithing law", if He has decided to repeal the law. Do you have proof of God repealing this tithing law?

The burden of proof Gary, lies on the person(s)who continue to refute the law. And NOWHERE have you provided such proof. Have a blessed day!


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Oh yes, and please do NOT use Hebrews 7 as your example. Since we disagree on how these passages are interpreted.

This sums it up best ..

"I have heard it objected that there is a passage in Hebrews 7:12 which after speaking of Jesus being made a Priest after the order of Melchisedec says, "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." And the inference (or interpretation) is, they want us to think, that with the change of the priesthood the law of the tithe is abrogated. On the contrary, the whole argument is for the establishment of the tithe. It is proved that the tithe did not belong to Levi exclusively, because Melchisedic received tithes, and what is more .. Levi paid tithes to Melchisedic. Now when the priesthood is changed to Christ, the tithes must now be paid to Him. And even Levi, who paid tithes to Melchisedic, must now begin to pay tithes to Jesus." Rev. W. R. Laird


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - I don't know what method you use to interpret the Bible. There were over 600 commands in the Old Testament. What is your method of determining which ones are still valid today? Do you just pick and choose the ones you want to follow, or what?

I believe those commands which are carried forward into the New Testament ARE REPEATED in the New Testament. Thus, nine of the ten commandments are valid today - all but the sabbath.

Numbers 18 - take the tithe to the Levites. SHOW ME WHERE GOD SAID DO NOT TAKE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES.

All offerings must be salted. (Leviticus 2:13)

The Law of the burnt offering. (Leviticus 1:2-17)

The Law of the sin offering. (Leviticus 6:25-30)

The Law of the trespass offering. (Leviticus 7:1-2, 7)

The Law of the peace offering. (Leviticus 3:1-17)

The Law of the grain offering. (Leviticus 2:1-16)

A woman must bring a sacrifice after childbirth. (Leviticus 12:6-8)

The firstborn sons belong to Yahweh, but may be redeemed. (Exodus 34:19-20)

Keep the Sabbath Day holy by making preparation in advance. (Exodus 20:8-11)

Should a man die childless, his brother must either marry the widow. (Deuteronomy 25:5-6)

No one other than the priests may come near to minister to Yahweh. (Numbers 18:4, 22)

Do not eat the produce from the planting of mixed seed. (Deuteronomy 22:9)

Do I need to list all 613? Now, PLEASE TELL ME what method YOU use to determine which commands are valid today.

The ONLY place the tithe is mentioned after Calvary is in Hebrews 7. Paul had many opportunities to teach tithing but he didn't.

NO CHURCH taught and collected the tithe on income UNTIL the middle of the 1800s - somewhere around 1870. Just 140 years ago! That should tell you something.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Isn't it kind of funny that the Rev. W. R. Laird quotes Hebrews 7:12 but ignores verse 18?

Tell me, Debradoo, exactly what command is disannulled in Hebrews 7:18?

The Rev. Laird is interpreting scripture to enrich his bank account. He takes a verse out of context and uses it for his own benefit.

7:5 And truly they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brothers, though they come out of the loins of

Abraham.

This is a crucial verse for understanding the remainder of the chapter, because the conclusions reached in 7:12 and 7:18 affect this foundational ordinance. “Sons of Levi” reminds the readers that the Levitical priests owed much of their existence and authority to their privilege of receiving tithes. The writer of Hebrews first reminds his readers where the authority of the Levitical priesthood originated before he proves that Christ’s authority is greater and replaces the former!

“According to the law” establishes the connection between “tithing” and the Mosaic Law. Whereas, in Hebrews, neither the word “tithe” nor “law” occurs before chapter 7, in this chapter “tithe” occurs 7 times (vv. 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9),

and “law” occurs 7 times (vv. 5, 11, 12, 16, 19, and 28). Tithing does not occur anywhere else in the New Testament after Calvary! A primary purpose of this chapter in Hebrews is to demonstrate the change of the legal system which established the Levitical priesthood. As already mentioned, both the first and last Scriptural occurrence of tithing involve Melchizedek! Therefore, in order to correctly understand this chapter, one must observe the vital connection between tithing and the Old Covenant Mosaic

Law. From the context, the word “law,” first used in verse 5, definitely must, though not exclusively, refer to tithing! “A commandment” refers specifically to Numbers, chapter 18. Those who study Numbers 18 in order to support New Covenant tithing are compelled to discard it and concentrate on more obscure texts. However, one who takes the time to study Numbers 18 will soon discover why tithing is not suitable for New Covenant believers. Since Numbers 18 actually contains the “commandment,” “ordinance”

or “statute” of tithing, it should be carefully studied by every serious Bible student with the goal of discovering exactly what the Bible says.

.......from Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

LIST OF TITHING OPPONENTS IN HISTORY

Tithing opponents throughout the years as compiled by Dr. David Croteau, Liberty University, You Mean I Don’t Have to Tithe?, p271-292.

Clement of Rome 100

Didache 100

Justin Martyr 165

Tertullian 230

Origen 255

Cyprian 258

Waldenses 1150+-

Thomas Aquinas 1275

John Wycliff 1384

John Huss 1415

German Peasants 1520

Anabaptists 1525

Erasmus 1536

Otto Brumfels 1534

Martin Luther 1546

Philip Melanchthon 1560

Separatists Amsterdam 1603

John Smythe 1609 Baptist

John Robinson 1610

English Parliament 1650+-

Puritans & Plgrims Mass 1650+-

John Cotton 1652 Puritan

Roger Williams 1636 Baptist

Little Parliament 1653

Oliver Cromwell 1658

John Milton 1658 Puritan

Particular Baptists 1660

John Owen 1680 Baptist

Francis Turretin 1687

John Bunyan 1688 Baptist

Quakers 1768

John Gill 1771 Baptist

John Wesley 1791

BAPTISTS IN AMERICA 1800s

Adam Clarke 1832 Baptist

Charles Buck 1833

J C Philpot 1835 Baptist

Charles H Spurgeon 1832 Baptist

Parsons Cooke 1850

Samuel Harris 1850

Edward A Lawrence 1850

John Peter Lange 1876

Henry William Clark 1891 Engllish

S H Kellogg 1891

G Campbell Morgan 1898 Congregational

Albert Vail 1913 Baptist

Frank Fox 1913

David MaConaughy 11918 Episcopal

William Pettingill 1932

John Harvey Grime 1934 Baptist

John T Mueller 1934 Lutheran

H E Dana 1937 Bapt Historian

R C H LENSKI 1946 Lutheran

Lewis Sperry Chafer 1948 DTS Foundeer

W E Vine 1949

James F Rand 1953

Francis Pieper 1953 Lutheran

Ray Stedman 1951

L L McR 1955 Catholic

Paul Leonard Stagg 1958 Baptist

Hiley H Ward 1958 Baptist

Roy T Cowles 1958

Elizabeth P Tilton 1958

R C Rein 1958 Lutheran

Robert A Baker 1959 Bapt Historian

Wick Bromall 1960

John Byron Evans 1960

Norman Tenpas 1967

James Edward Anderson 1967

Alfred Martin 1968

CHARLES C RYRIE 1969 DTS

Jerry Horner 1972 S Baptist

Pieter Verhoef 1974

Dennis Wretlind 1975

Jack J Peterson 1978 Pres

Donald Kraybill 1978

Jon Zens 1979 Baptist

Richard Cunningham 1979 S Bapt

Gary Frieson 1980

JOHN MACARTHUR 1982-2000

Paul Fink 1982

George Monroe Castillo 1982

Tony Badillo 1984

James M Boice 1986

Michael E Oliver 1986 Rest

W Clyde Tilley 1987

Scott Collier 1987

Ronald M Campbell 1987

R E O White 1988

William McDonald 1989

Charles Swindoll 1990 Dallas Seminary

Rhodes Thompson 1990

J VERNON MCGEE 1999

Jerome Smith 1992

CRAIG BLOMBERG 1993 Denver Seminary

J Duncan M Derrett 1993

Walter Kaiser Jr 1994 Gordon-Cromwell

Moises Silva 1994

Benny D Prince 1995

Brian K Morley 1996

Linda L Belleville 1996

Ron Rhodes 1997

Ernest L Martin 1997

Michael Webb 1998

R Johnston 1999

Mark Snoeberger 2000 Baptist

Stuart Murray 2000 Eng

George W Greene 2000

Old Line Primitive Baptists 2000

Jaime Cardinal Sin 2000 Cath Archbishop

RUSSELL EARL KELLY 2001 Baptist

Jonathan Kitchcart 2001

Frank Viola 2002

George Barna 2002

Michael Morrison 2002

Elliott Miller 2003

Matthew Narramore 2004

David Alan Black 2004 Baptist SEBTS

Andreas Kostenberger 2007 Baptist SEBTS

Danny Akin 2007 Baptist SEBTS

Mark Driscoll 2008

Roman Catholic Church

Jehovah’s Witnesses

New Worldwide Church of God


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Wow Gary, that is quite a list! I do have to question a few of those opponents though, especially those at the bottom of your list.

Now, it is only fair that I get to do a list of those that are proponents of tithing .. right?

LIST OF TITHING PROPONENTS IN HISTORY

Jesus Christ Matthew 23:23

My list is not quite as extensive as yours is Gary. But, as you know .. I keep my comments as brief as possible.

Seems we get our info from different sources, eh? Ahhh, but I have known that from the beginning of our debate. ;-)


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo,

Since Jesus was born, lived, and died under the OLD COVENANT LAW, He naturally taught and obeyed the law. Had he said tithing was not required, He would have gone against the laws of that time.

The is NO scripture showing that Jesus ever tithed (He was not a farmer, so couldn't have tithed), that Jesus ever collected the tithe when He preached, so IF you follow the EXAMPLE set by Jesus, Himself, you won't tithe.

There is NO example of Paul tithing or collecting the tithe. There is NO example of Peter tithing on his fish.

Why aren't YOU taking the tithe to the Levites as GOD COMMANDED? Please answer.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

quote .. Why aren't YOU taking the tithe to the Levites as GOD COMMANDED? Please answer.. end quote

Because now I tithe to the Priest of the tribe of Judah. The priesthood changed hands and there is no longer a Levitical priesthood (you can find this info in Hebrews 7). I don't think you are paying one iota of attention to my posts? Sheesh.. :-)

Oh and that 613 old laws thingy .. well, that is up to opinion. I mean, that is Torah stuff and seems nobody can quite agree on what those 613 laws are (different guys and different interpretations). It gets truly complicated and I like things simple. Simplify! So this is my christianity ..

Matthew 22:

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(this would include my obedience, my time, my money, my attention, etc.)

38This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and ALL the prophets. (my own emphasis on the word 'ALL')

It is ok by your standards to still follow these commands? I mean Jesus WAS under the old covenant at the time (just like He was when He approved the tithe).


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - I see you haven't been trained in how to read the Bible. Yes, Jesus was born, lived, and died under the Old Covenant. HOWEVER, Jesus taught both to those under the law, AND ALSO taught what we would need to know after His death. You apparently can't separate the two. You have to know WHO Jesus was speaking to.

Since the New Testament teaches GENEROUS, SACRIFICIAL giving, from the heart, ACCORDING TO OUR MEANS, it might be a sacrifice for some to give $1. But for others, maybe it would take 50% or more of them income before they would really have to sacrifice. Those who tithe have a false sense of security in thinking that when they give their precious ten percent, and then MAYBE a little more, they have done good. Maybe they have, but maybe God wanted them to give a LOT MORE.

God gave us The Holy Spirit to use. You either follow the Old Testament laws as your guidance, OR you are SPIRIT LED, and use The Spirit as your guidance.

Being Spirit led, I find that I am led to give MUCH MORE than a mere ten percent of my income, time, and talents.

God doesn't want a tenth of our money, time, and talents. God wants our ALL. He wants 100% of us and you don't use ten percent as the guideline. IF it isn't Spirit led, it just isn't of God.

I am done replying to you on this blog. We are getting nowhere. You obviously use Old Testament laws as a guidance for the way you live while I use God's Spirit as my guidance for the way I live.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

quote .. I see you haven't been trained in how to read the Bible. Yes, Jesus was born, lived, and died under the Old Covenant. HOWEVER, Jesus taught both to those under the law, AND ALSO taught what we would need to know after His death. You apparently can't separate the two. You have to know WHO Jesus was speaking to.. end quote

You are right. I have not been trained in the 'hows' to reading my Bible. When I do read my Bible, it is with the express reliance upon the Holy Spirit to open my eyes and ears and heart and show me what God wants to say to me.

quote .. Since the New Testament teaches GENEROUS, SACRIFICIAL giving, from the heart, ACCORDING TO OUR MEANS, it might be a sacrifice for some to give $1. But for others, maybe it would take 50% or more of them income before they would really have to sacrifice.. end quote

Tithing is not giving. Period. I cannot stress this enough. Tithing is paying. If we do not pay the ten percent then the ninety percent does not belong to us and we cannot offer God a thing and there can be no sacrifice on our part. If we do not pay the tithe then we are stealing from God and then we throw something in the collection plate and brag about giving Him something that belongs to Him and is not even ours to begin with.

quote .. God doesn't want a tenth of our money, time, and talents. God wants our ALL. He wants 100% of us and you don't use ten percent as the guideline. IF it isn't Spirit led, it just isn't of God.. end quote

He does require a tenth. However, you are right in that He wants our all. But, we have nothing to offer Him if we refuse to pay the tenth. After paying the tenth, then and only then can we be Spirit led in our giving.

Gary, you have used the OT over and over and over to tell me that I cannot use the OT. You have accused me again and again of being ignorant when it comes to the Bible. I do study the Bible. As a matter of fact, God has me now re-writing the Bible as I interpret the Bible. I use the KJV, but do resort to other translations often. Back when I first began to read the Bible, I told God that the KJV was a tough one to understand. Know what He said? He said, "Yes, it is and that is why I want you to use the KJV. Then you will HAVE to rely upon the Holy Spirit for understanding." God never did mention to me that I needed training in reading the Bible. Hmmm. ;-)


Kathy 6 years ago

The tithe propagandist will twist and turn scriptures to the point of outright falsifying. The latest is now the Abrahamic Covenant points to tithing. In the first place the Covenant God made with Abraham was unconditional. God did not command a tithe or called him out of a pagan nation because he paid tithes for this. God originated the call and set apart Abraham before Abraham gave God a dime. This people want to stay brainwashed. My guide is the Word and my New Testament tells me that we are under the Dispensation of Grace-Favor & the Holy Spirit all given for free to the Body of Christ because Jesus died and paid in full to give us what is needed.

Matthew 23:23 Was addressed to Jews before Jesus died on the Cross because Jesus had not died and said paid in full yet!

Hebrew8:7

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Romans 8:32

"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?"

Hebrews 7: 28

Moses' Teachings designated mortals as chief priests even though they had weaknesses. But God's promise, which came after Moses' Teachings, designated the Son who forever accomplished everything that God required.

Acts 13:39

..and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.


Dave  6 years ago

To OscarWms

Your argument that Abraham paid tithes before the law is does not fly because he also was circumcised before the law was given. I have never heard it preached that all Believers should circumcise their male babies on the eighth day. Be consistent or you come off as illogical!

Besides Abraham did not pay tithes what he did do was voluntarily give a one time tenth of spoils from the war he won without God telling him to do it. Pastors do not consider giving a tenth of your income faithful tithing. Unless it is ongoing. God never demanded Abraham's tithe.


Dave 6 years ago

Jesus fulfilled the law for all in the body of Christ. he said, it is finished, as in Paid in full. Paid in full means there is nothing left owing. There is a zero balance. We are under a New Covenant, the Dispensation of Grace. G-R-A-C-E is God's Riches At Christ Expense.

Hebrew 8:6

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises".

Hebrew8:7

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Galatians 3:13

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree"

James 2:10

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Galatians 3:10

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Misused Scriptures

Matthew 23:23 Was addressed to Jews still under the Old Covenant because Jesus had not yet gone to the Cross

Malachi 3-God was speaking to Jews under the Old Covenant law. Redeemed people cannot be cursed.

Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us." Redeemed people cannot be cursed.

Tithe teachers incorrectly teach that Abraham paid tithes before the law. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

Abraham voluntary gave a one time tenth without it being mandated by God. This is not an example of faithful continuous tithing.

Abraham gave a tithe before the law was given to Moses therefore we are to tithe. Wrong. Abraham was also circumcised before the law, but the Apostle Paul clearly taught that circumcision and law keeping was going backward into law. Our right-standing and favor was freely given after the Cross.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Dave, you are so right. And to expand on Abraham's tenth:

Those who say God gave the law to Abraham before he gave it to Moses can't be right. Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils. But the later Mosaic law required only 1.1% of war spoils to be given. The law required the war spoils to be divided in half. One half went to the men who won the battle. From this half, 1/500th, or .2% was to be given to God by a wave offering. The other half was given to the people of Israel. From this half, 2% was given to God by giving it to the Levites. Therefore, from the total, only 1.1% was given to God, NOT ten percent.

That shows that Abraham's tenth had absolutely NOTHING to do with the later tithing commands. What Abraham did was NOT brought forward into the law.

Isn't it amazing what one can learn if they would just open their Bible and study instead of listening to ignorant and/or dishonest pastors?


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SpanStar 6 years ago

I believe in tithing and as someone already stated by the joyful giver. However I do not believe in the tithing perspective by some churches which makes it a primary mandate. Let us not forget that it was the church that was instrumental in bringing about Jesus death. Let us also not forget that Jesus went into the temple and drove out the money changers it seems to me this would be a contradiction for tithing since the money changers were bringing in money for the church.

Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who ... ... Entering the Temple, Jesus drove out all who were buying and selling there, and

overturned the money-changers' tables and the seats of the pigeon-dealers. ...

This cast in stone 10% which one Must give also flies in the face of what Jesus did:

Mark 12:44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her ... ... for they all gave out of their abundance, but she, out of

her poverty, gave all that she had to live on." ...

//bible.cc/mark/12-44.htm - 16k

Jesus admonished those who were able to give more than 10% and he praised the person who could only give much less than 10%. Jesus did not tell her to come back when she could give the full 10%.

One last thing I have heard some preachers accused the congregation of being thieves by not giving 10%. My question is if people are hungry, poverty-stricken, homeless, jobless, sickly and the church is able to paint the church building, buy church furniture, present that church social function then wouldn't that make both of us thieves?


SpanStar profile image

SpanStar 6 years ago

The biblica; information in my post is found:

http://bible.cc/mark/12-44.htm


Jody 6 years ago

Thank you Gary for your faithful attention to the truth of the Bible! It amazes me how some Christians hold onto 'tithing'! For all that Christ died for and all the blessings he bestows upon us I fail to see how folk still cling to laws! Thanks again Gary!


DDHCTS 6 years ago

IMO not being a bible scholar. There should be no collection plate all charity should be done in private no names ,no reward ,no expecting a reward/blessing. I also think that no one should make a profit using Jesus as a money maker / make a living selling Jesus. No peacher should be paid for preaching. It should all be free. Churches dont need huge fancy buildings with elaborate murals or gold chairs. I personally dont want to walk on streets of gold I would prefer barefoot in the grass.Maybe Im wrong but I dont think so.Churches should make enough money to keep up with the utility bills and taxes and learning materials. Maybe a piano and some musical instruments. Wooden benches so hard your butt hurts after a half hour and no a/c in the summer.Wood burning stove for the winter and church members should cut/split and stack the wood. Just My opinion.


Anonymous  6 years ago

Wow, I just got a clear revelation of Galatians 4:30

Paul was speaking of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant. In Christ we are free from the bondage of the law and can enter into a relationship with God for free by the gift of grace. This makes me want to pay (oops) I mean voluntarily give and put him first in everything I do!


Sue Anne 6 years ago

Those who promote any law keeping for justification and favor with God they have never read Galatians 5:4 They may not even be saved according to this verse by the Apostle Paul:

Galatians 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.


Commonsense 6 years ago

My grandfather always told me if you ever wanna know the heart of the person you are dealing with put "some money on the table". Whats in your heart?


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Commonsense - That is correct. However, tithing had NOTHING to do with the heart. It was a law. It was required.

The New Testament teaches giving FROM THE HEART. Giving is all about the heart.

What is in the heart of a pastor who teaches an Old Testament law that ended at the cross? What is in the heart of a pastor who week after week after week keeps asking for money?

What is in the heart of a pastor who tells his congregation that those who don't bring their tithe to HIS CHURCH are robbing God?

Yes, let's do look at the heart - of those who give from the heart, and those who ASK FOR YOUR MONEY.

Does the pastor who asks for money have a pure heart? Does he even have enough faith to believe that God will provide for His church? Does he think he has to beg and put fear into people to give? Why doesn't the pastor have enough faith to leave that part to God?


Gwaine 6 years ago

@Gary Arnold,

Gary: "However, tithing had NOTHING to do with the heart. It was a law. It was required.

The New Testament teaches giving FROM THE HEART. Giving is all about the heart"

BOTH the OT and NT depict giving as from the heart, and it is quite out of joint to make it only a matter of the New Testament. It is clear from Exodus 25:2 that the Jews under the Law were asked to give willingly from the heart - "Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it WILLINGLY with his HEART ye shall take my offering". God did not present OT giving as a dry, heartless exercise; so please don't make such a disconnected assertion that is largely misrepresenting the substance of Scripture on these things.

___

Gary: "What is in the heart of a pastor who teaches an Old Testament law that ended at the cross?"

There's nothing wrong with any pastor teaching from the Old Testament. All Scripture is inspired of God, says Paul (2 Tim. 3:16); and the same Paul quoted many verses from the Old Testament to teach NT Christian doctrines. For example, in 1 Corinthians 9:9-10, Paul quoted Deut. 25:4 and openly declared that he was quoting from "the Law of Moses"; immediately after that, he affirms that the OT verse from the Law of Moses he quoted was "written for OUR SAKES". Please open your Bible and READ it - there is no denying that Paul taught from the OT and the Law of Moses.

However, by quoting from the OT and the Law of Moses, the apostles in the NT did not seek to place Christians under the legalism that many people argue today. The apostles rather saw the spiritual principles of the OT, which is why they cautioned us to be careful not to fall into the error of emphasizing 'the letter' of the Law (2 Cor. 3:6).

___

Gary: "Does the pastor who asks for money have a pure heart? Does he even have enough faith to believe that God will provide for His church? Does he think he has to beg and put fear into people to give? Why doesn't the pastor have enough faith to leave that part to God?"

There is nothing wrong with a pastor who asks for money or sustenance or support from those he ministers to (pls see 1 Tim. 5:18 and Gal. 6:6). There is a difference between fraudsters whose interest is in filthy lucre (1 Tim. 3:3), and genuine ministers who exercise their rights to ask for support (as Paul notes in 1 Cor. 9:11).

___

@Spansar,

Thank you so much for your thought and balanced piece. Quite refreshing, many blessings.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

@Gwaine - of course giving from the heart is in both the OT and the NT. I never said otherwise. This blog is about tithing, and tithing was a payment, not a gift.

Gwaine said, "There's nothing wrong with any pastor teaching from the Old Testament."

There IS something wrong with a pastor who teaches an Old Testament law as being applicable today. I have yet to hear a pastor teach that the Bible teaches the tithe applies ONLY to crops and animals raised on the Holy land, and that the tithe MUST BE taken to the Levites. No, that is not what I have heard. Rather, I hear the LIES that the tithe is on your income and to be taken to the church. That is nothing but lies.

Tithing was not a principle. It was a law. There is no tithing principle of giving back to God a tenth of one's income. That is manipulation of God's Word.

Gwaine said, "There is nothing wrong with a pastor who asks for money or sustenance or support from those he ministers to (pls see 1 Tim. 5:18 and Gal. 6:6)."

IF the pastors knows how to teach stewardship properly, he would never need to ask for money. The scripture does not teach that the teacher should ASK for payment. You have it backwards. Those who study the scripture will see that they should be freely giving WITHOUT being asked.

Why is it that pastors ask (or many times beg) for money, telling the congregation to put their trust in God that He will provide for them? Can't the pastor put his trust in God that He will provide for the church? Where is the pastor's faith who thinks he has to ask for payment?

The problem is very few pastors really know how to teach stewardship properly. My observation has been that few pastors practice good stewardship themselves, and few church leaders practice good stewardship with the funds giving to the church.


Gwaine 6 years ago

1. Gary, you should have recognized the fact that BOTH the OT and the NT posit giving (and that includes tithing) as a matter affected from the heart. It was quite misleading to have tried to narrow it the way you did initially as if God gave Israel tithing as a heartless, legalistic exercise.

2. Now, to say that tithing was a 'payment' is froth with huge problems and that is not what Scripture reveals about its main purpose. What did the people "owe" God that the tithes should be interpreted as a "payment" to Him? Perhaps if you did a bit more careful study on this, you will find that the tithe was indeed a 'gift', for which it is presented in the sense of a 'terumah'. There is a HUGE difference in Scripture between 'tithe' and 'tax', and the idea of "payment" is not what God portrays about tithes in Scripture.

3. Gary: "There IS something wrong with a pastor who teaches an Old Testament law as being applicable today. I have yet to hear a pastor teach that the Bible teaches the tithe applies ONLY to crops and animals raised on the Holy land, and that the tithe MUST BE taken to the Levites. No, that is not what I have heard. Rather, I hear the LIES that the tithe is on your income and to be taken to the church. That is nothing but lies."

If there is something wrong with a pastor teaching from the Old Testament, then by extension you're arguing that something must be wrong with the apostles who taught Christian doctrines from the OT as well! Your argument style just does not stand scrutiny here, because the apostles also clearly taught from "the Law" without seeking a legalistic application. Would you then accuse the NT apostles of teaching "lies" as well? I don't think your accusations are necessary.

I gave you the example of Deuteronomy 25:4 where Paul clearly refers to "the Law of Moses" from which he drew upon to teach on giving - perhaps you just glossed over it conveniently... or, is Deut. 25:4 not contained in "the Law of Moses" in your own Bible? There are loads more - but see another example in 1 Corinthians 14:34, where Paul declares that women keep silence in the churches, his reason being "AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW".

What about the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) that is taught in Christianity - is that not from the same "Law of Moses" in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5?

I think the antitithing argument that it is wrong to teach "an Old Testament law as being applicable today" needs important qualification - it is far too strained and legalistic. To insist on such is to miss the way the apostles in the NT handled the Old Testament (which understandably is referred to as 'the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms', Luke 24:44).

No, there is nothing wrong with any pastor teaching from the OT - whether from the Law of Moses, the Prophets or the Psalms. It is when people begin to argue their legalism into these things that insurmountable problems emerge. The apostles made clear that whatever was written in the OT was written for OUR learning (Rom. 15:4), and in that sense we cannot just throw the OT out of sight - or that leaves us absolutely no option than to throw Christianity out the window entirely!


Gwaine 6 years ago

4. Gary: ["Tithing was not a principle. It was a law. There is no tithing principle of giving back to God a tenth of one's income. That is manipulation of God's Word."]

I'm sorry, but tithing was not "a law", it was rather "A COMMANDMENT in the Law" - that is what Hebrews 7:5 clearly says. Why this? Because you cannot make a commandment to be larger than it is and then equate it with "the Law". To do so would mean that you throw the entire Law out without taking anything into Christianity - and that is a gamble that NO ANTITITHER has ever tried to risk! The reason is quite simple: because the foundation of the new covenant is the Old Testament! The moment you flush away the OT as the foundation, then you have nothing left of NT Christianity.

Let me make something clear: there is a difference between the "old covenant" and "Old Testament". I do not ask any Christian to come under the "old covenant"; but I certainly recognize that the Old Testament still speaks to Christians today - that is why Paul's teaching about giving in the NT came directly from the Old Testament. In other words, the "principle" you miss is there all along - else, how do you explain away the FACT that Paul was using the Old Testament in his teaching and exhortation to Christians in the NT? Please help clarify on that FACT.

_____

5. Gary: ["IF the pastors knows how to teach stewardship properly, he would never need to ask for money. The scripture does not teach that the teacher should ASK for payment. You have it backwards. Those who study the scripture will see that they should be freely giving WITHOUT being asked."]

If you don't know, just ask - it's that simple! Perhaps the word "payment" was your worry; but I had talked rather simply in a general way about "money or sustenance or support" - do you have such a big worry about those?

The NT actually reveals that ministers had a right to ask for SUPPORT in one way or another (1 Cor. 9:11 - please carefully study that verse). What did Paul mean in 1 Cor. 16:6 (NIV) in saying "... so that you can help me on my journey, wherever I go"?? Was he not also directly asking for SUPPORT when he wrote to the Romans: "...I hope to visit while passing through and to have you ASSIST ME on my journey there..." (Rom. 15:24, NIV - you may care to read this in the NLT version)??

Now Gary, if Paul in those examples was not asking for some SUPPORT in any way, please take those verses and explain them for us. Thanks in advance.

Of course, there are loads more examples - and I trust you would take the time to calmly reason them through.

____

6. Gary: ["Why is it that pastors ask (or many times beg) for money, telling the congregation to put their trust in God that He will provide for them? Can't the pastor put his trust in God that He will provide for the church? Where is the pastor's faith who thinks he has to ask for payment?"]

Please, your reactive comment was uncalled for. I've just highlighted to you in (5) above how we find indeed that an apostle directly asked for SUPPORT from those he ministered to; as well, he did not try to deny others that same right, even though he could forego it at certain instances. There is nothing wrong with any minister directly asking for support in one form or another - as long as such requests are not self-serving. The NT clearly reveals ministers asking for support, and you first have to see that FACT in your Bible before you try to set up your own law for others.

____

7. Gary: ["The problem is very few pastors really know how to teach stewardship properly. My observation has been that few pastors practice good stewardship themselves, and few church leaders practice good stewardship with the funds giving to the church."]

I'm not concerned about your observations, however befitting that may serve your interest. The FACT in the New Testament is that ministers had the freedom to ask for support from those they ministered to, with no ulterior motives. You cannot make an overarching assertion to plaster on every minister the way you did and then suppose that is what one finds in the NT. That is why I have tried to point them out for your consideration.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine, you need to read the scriptures a little more closely.

Jesus said that the tithe was a PAYMENT, not a gift, in Matthew 23:23. He also called it a LAW.

Matthew 23:23 (KJV) - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice Jesus said you PAY tithe, and refers to tithing in with other "matters of the law."

Hebrews 7:5 does NOT say commandment IN the law as you stated.

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV) - And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Read it. The Lord's Tithe is called a commandment in Leviticus 27:30-33, an ordinance in Malachi 3:7, and both a commandment and a law in Hebrews 7:5.

I'm not going to even waste my time addressing the other issues since I see you use the NIV version of the Bible. You might as well be reading a commentary.

You need to use a better version along with Hebrew and Greek concordances and dictionaries before we can have an intelligent debate.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[Jesus said that the tithe was a PAYMENT, not a gift, in Matthew 23:23. He also called it a LAW.

Notice Jesus said you PAY tithe, and refers to tithing in with other "matters of the law."]"

Let me deal with your loaded assertion in two parts:

(1) Jesus did NOT say that the tithe was a "payment". We cannot strain on the word "pay", as it does not appear in the Greek in Matthew 23:23. While the KJV says 'ye pay tithe', it does not therefore mean that anyone was making tithes a 'PAYMENT' as if the Jews were being taxed by God.

The word translated 'pay' would be 'tele?', which is used for 'TRIBUTE' as in Matthew 17:24 ('Doth not your master PAY [tele?] tribute?', KJV) and Romans 13:6 ('For for this cause PAY [tele?] ye tribute also', KJV). Tithes are NOT presented by God to His people as a tax or tribute - they are not the same.

However, other versions and translations on Matthew 23:23 do not have 'pay tithe' but rather "GIVE a tenth" (NIV, Amplified, NET), or "ye GIVE tithe" (Young's Literal Tr. (YLT)), or simply "tithe" (ESV, NASB, RV). In the same KJV, Luke 11:42 does not have tithe as a 'PAYMENT'; rather it simply says 'ye tithe' - as do many other versions.

____

(2) As regards tithes being presented as a 'gift' from God's people to him, Numbers 18:24 affirms that the 'tithes' were given as a 'heave offering' - "But the TITHES of the children of Israel, which they OFFER AS AN HEAVE OFFERING unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance" (KJV).

The term 'heave offering' is 'terûmâh' in Hebrew and is simply understood as a gift or present. The Easton's Bible Dictionary says that the heave offering means simply 'an offering, a present, including all the offerings made by the Israelites as a present.' Some other resources such as the Brown-Driver Briggs' Hebrew Definition point out the 'terûmâh' as a "contribution" (not as a 'payment' like a tribute); which is probably why some Bible translations and versions render the 'heave offering' in Numbers 18:24 as a "contribution" (e.g., ESV and Holman's Christian Standard Bible [HCSB]).

In any case, Num. 18:24 shows precisely what the tithes pointed to - they were offered by Israel to God as a 'heave offering', which is commonly understood as a gift or present. You do not bring a "gift" or "present" to God as a dry, heartless exercise: which was why I asked you to go back and carefully study God's Word before forcing your untenable assertions on others.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[Hebrews 7:5 does NOT say commandment IN the law as you stated.

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV) - And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Read it. The Lord's Tithe is called a commandment in Leviticus 27:30-33, an ordinance in Malachi 3:7, and both a commandment and a law in Hebrews 7:5.]"

I'll highlight it yet again, but first -

(a) I agree with you that Leviticus 27:34 presents tithes as part of 'the commandments' (plural) - which is the same thing I said concerning Heb. 7:5.

(b) As well you're correct to observe Malachi 3:7 presenting it as an ordinance.

(c) However, to DENY that Hebrews 7:5 calls it "a commandment" is beyond me! Let me break this down for you: "a commandment" is CONTAINED in the Law, and that verse refers to the Levitical tithes as "a commandment" which is part of other "commandments" contained in the Law.

(d) Your denial by asserting that "Hebrews 7:5 does NOT say commandment IN the law as you stated" can be easily laid to rest by reading the same verse in the English Standard Version, ESV:

- "And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have 'A COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW' to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham".

The KJV agrees with the ESV on Heb. 7:5 in noting that tithes under the Levitical system were "a commandment" in the Law; as is the same affirmation in Lev. 27:34, KJV. Are you clear now, or anything else to deny?

____

Gary: "[I'm not going to even waste my time addressing the other issues since I see you use the NIV version of the Bible. You might as well be reading a commentary.]"

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using other translations or versions as long as the point being made is clear. The KJV is a 'translation', not a 'transliteration'; that is why it was quite a misleading adventure for you to force "PAYMENT" into Matthew 23:23 where the Greek does not have 'tele?' ('pay') in that verse. To strain on "KJV" when you have not carefully done your homework will only tend to legalism - something Christians should shy away from.

____

Gary: "[You need to use a better version along with Hebrew and Greek concordances and dictionaries before we can have an intelligent debate]"

Thanks for the offer; and it is precisely the tact of consulting such resources and references that shows why you were WRONG on Matthew 23:23.


Gwaine 6 years ago

*PS, the Greek for 'PAY' in both Matthew 17:24 and Romans 13:6 is 'teleo' (some of you may see this as 'tele?' - that is because this blog may not have the software to show the special fonts in Greek).

Cheers.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

According to Strongs Hebrew dictionary, the word tithe in Matthew 23:23 means to tithe AS A CREDITOR OR DEBTOR. That should settle the issue that Jesus said you PAY, not give, tithe.

Do you have a legal background? I really doubt it since you don't seem to understand that an ordinance IS a law. Your argument that tithing was a commandment and not a law is in error. A commandment "in the law" is obviously a part of the law; therefore, tithing was in fact a law.

You said, "As regards tithes being presented as a 'gift' from God's people to him, Numbers 18:24 affirms that the 'tithes' were given as a 'heave offering'"

You are taking a verse out of context. Let's look at the next two verses which explain this.

Numbers 18:25 (KJV)

25And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 18:26 (KJV)

26Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Explanation: The heave offering CAME FROM the tithes received by the Levites. The Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests - the best part to be used as an heave offering.

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. NO ONE is following God's command.

God gave His ordinances for His tithe in Numbers 18 where He made it clear to take the tithe to the Levites. NO ONE is following this ordinance.

What is man following? History tells us the answer. Man is following what church leaders came up with during the second half of the 1800s. Man is following man's teaching, NOT God's Word.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[According to Strongs Hebrew dictionary, the word tithe in Matthew 23:23 means to tithe AS A CREDITOR OR DEBTOR. That should settle the issue that Jesus said you PAY, not give, tithe.]"

That is just piffling on semantics. Strong HEBREW Dictionary for 'tithe' (ref. no. #6237. 'asar, aw-sar') says "to tithe, i.e. to take or GIVE a tenth"; and the Strong's GREEK Dictionary for 'tithe' (ref. no. #586, 'apodekatoo' ) uses "GIVE, pay, take" to explain the varied connections with that word.

You will notice the words "GIVE" and "TAKE" are also used beside "pay"; but the basic fact in all this is that Matthew 23:23 does NOT have either "PAY" or "PAYMENT" in the Greek on that verse. Jesus did NOT refer to tithes in that verse as "payment" because the word 'teleo' (Gk. for 'pay') does NOT appear in that verse at all! More so, 'teleo' is used for tribute or tax as in Matt. 17:24 and Rom. 13:6 - which are not the same thing as tithes.

Please carefully check them and let me know where you see the word 'teleo' in the Greek text of Matthew 23:23. If it's not there, don't try to force it in - Jesus did NOT call the tithe a "payment".

____

Gary: "[Do you have a legal background? I really doubt it since you don't seem to understand that an ordinance IS a law. Your argument that tithing was a commandment and not a law is in error.]"

I don't have a problem with your take on 'ordinance'; and quite frankly, you're complicating issues for yourself. However, perhaps you might want to look over such verses as Deut. 30:10 in the same KJV that neatly wraps this up for you: 'his "commandments" and his "statutes" which are written in this book of "the law"? Easy to grasp now, no?

The 'commandments' are contained IN the Law, which is the sense that the ESV renders Heb. 7:5 about the Levites having "a commandment IN the Law" to take tithes. Unless you want to get needlessly technical, isn't it ironic that even your own preferred KJV points out that it is "a commandment" (Gk. 'entole') according to "the Law" (Gk. 'nomos')? Please check your Strong's Greek Dictionary on Hebrews 7:5 >>

(a) for 'commandment': (Strong's #1785 - 'entole') - "from entellomai - 1781; injunction, i.e. an authoritative prescription:--COMMANDMENT, PRECEPT";

(b) for 'law': (Strong's #3551 - 'nomos') - 'law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.'

In both the KJV and the ESV, tithing under the Levitical system was "a commandment" in/according to "the Law" - you cannot stretch 'entole' in that verse to equate it to 'nomos'. Are you still in denial? Consult your references again on both terms.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[You said, "As regards tithes being presented as a 'gift' from God's people to him, Numbers 18:24 affirms that the 'tithes' were given as a 'heave offering'"

You are taking a verse out of context. Let's look at the next two verses which explain this.

. . .

Explanation: The heave offering CAME FROM the tithes received by the Levites. The Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests - the best part to be used as an heave offering.]"

You seem to have hurriedly dribbled away from verse 24. What does Numbers 18:24 call the tithes of the children of Israel, Gary? For anyone who has the faintest clue, it is obvious that Israel's tithes were offered as a "heave offering" - "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer AS - - - - -"??? Please fill in the gaps precisely as your preferred KJV renders that verse.

Numberse 18:24 points to the tithes of the children of Israel; verse 26 points to the tithes of the Levites. Just as the children of Israel offered their tithes 'AS A HEAVE OFFERING' in verse 24, so the Levites were to offer 'a heave offering' from what they received from the children of Israel. So, whether it's the tithes of the children of Israel (verse 24), or the tithes of the Levites which they received (vese 26), in BOTH cases they offered these tithes as a 'heave offering'. The 'heave offering' in Hebrew is 'terûmâh' - which has been explained as meaning simply a "gift" or "present".

Now please check the Hebrew resource for verses 24 & 26. and see if it is not . If the 'heave offering' in your copy of the KJV does not read 'terûmâh' in Hebrew in those verse, then please tell us WHAT EXACTLY the tithes of the children of Israel were called in verse 24. Was it a 'tax'? a 'tribute'? a 'ransom'? a 'debt'? a'tariff'?? WHAT EXACTLY does Numbers 18:24 call Israel's tithes, Gary?

When you come round to see that Israel offered their tithes as a "heave offering" to the LORD, then you will see what a 'terûmâh' actually means. The references I cited earlier (Easton's Bible Dictionary, and Brown-Driver Briggs' Hebrew Definition) will help show you that the basic meaning of the 'terûmâh' is simply a gift or present. God did not set the tithes upon His people as a "PAYMENT" as if He was taxing them.

___

Gary: "[God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. NO ONE is following God's command.]"

Oh please. Leviticus 27 is not the only place where tithes are spoken of in the entire Bible. Hebrews 7 shows indeed that the Levitical tithes did not supercede Abraham's tithes; for even Levi himself offered tithes to Melchizedek while he (Levi) was still in Abraham's loins (Heb. 7:9). Would Leviticus 27 therefore consign Abraham's tithe to an ungoldy act? Please let me know what you think.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[God gave His ordinances for His tithe in Numbers 18 where He made it clear to take the tithe to the Levites. NO ONE is following this ordinance.]"

You're funny. Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 drew "principles" from the Law of Moses when he wrote to the Corinthians on supporting ministers of the Gospel. Please go back and carefully read 1 Cor. 9:13 & 14 - it should be clear to you that he was referring to the manner in which the Levites were supported in their ministry.

However, he did not ask Christians to follow 'the letter of the Law' by bringing "ox" and "crop" in the literal sense; but it is clear that he was pointing to PRINCIPLES from the Law of Moses for NT Christian doctrine on giving. Numbers 18 comes to mind in Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 9:13; and then immediately following in verse 14, he points out that in the same way, the Lord has "ordained" such a principle for the support of ministers of the Gospel. Let me quote those verses from the Amplified Bible for easier understanding (emphasis mine) -

"13Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]? 14[ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel."

There are many Christians who understand the simplicity of this passage without the legalistic arguments of antitithers who're only interested in 'the letter' of the Law. They understand tithing as a simple principle without having to follow a literal application of letter-for-letter.

___

Gary: "[What is man following? History tells us the answer. Man is following what church leaders came up with during the second half of the 1800s. Man is following man's teaching, NOT God's Word.]"

That is sadly the warped storyline that antitithers have thrown out there without making clear that the 1800s you're talking about have to do with 'mandatory tithes'. BEFORE then, people did not have any problem understanding that people also gave tithes of their resources in a voluntray manner. Early Christians also pointed out the principles they derived from the OT for their practical faith in these matters. There's no need to muddy the waters while arguing untenable theories for your eisegesis on these things.

Regards.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

God commanded only 3 tithes:

Leviticus 27:30-33

Deuteronomy 14:22-27

Deuteronomy 14:28-29

All three of these are limited to crops and animals which are assets from God's hand, not income from man's labor.

The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. The goods that Abraham gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abraham:

Genesis 14:21 - The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

In verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abraham if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself. The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him and those he represented.

Genesis 14:22-24 - Abraham said he would accept nothing that didn't belong to him.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abraham acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abraham, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek. This would seem that Abraham did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abraham not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion: Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him. That is NOT an example for Christians to follow today.

What Abraham did was NOT brought forward into the Mosaic law. Obviously God didn't want a tenth of war spoils as He only required 1.1% under the Levitical priesthood.

There is no point for me to go further with you on this topic. It is obvious your mind is made up.

YOU, youself, do NOT follow ANY of God's definitions for a tithe. YOU, yourself, do NOT follow any of God's instructions (ordinances, commands, or laws) telling you where to take the tithe. YOU have decided what is best rather than follow God's Word.

Any normal person who studies the history of tithing in the Christian church will see how man has twisted and actually changed God's Word all for the benefit of man.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, perhaps it is taking you such a very long time that I'm not a legalist when discussing tithes. This is why I hinted at the antitithing bane of arguing long and hard over 'the letter' of the Law and never seeing NT principles derived from the OT. Even so, let me again deal with some of your strained arguments.

____

Gary: "[The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. The goods that Abraham gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abraham]"

There is a huge implication for antitithers who argue that Abraham tithed from what did not belong to him. That would be theft, not tithes - because you cannot take what does not belong to you and offer as your tithes to the priest of God.

However, I have dealt with that antitithing fallacy in another blog (Wealth From The Bible or 'WFTB') and can reproduce it here below:

- - - -


Gwaine 6 years ago


Gwaine 6 years ago


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abraham acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abraham, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek.]"

That's another fallacy deliberately read into Scripture. The king of Sodom was not acknowledging that the spoils of war did not belong to Abraham - for if that were the case, Abraham himself would not have had any prerogative to give anything to his confederates or Melchizedek in the first place.

___

Gary: "[This would seem that Abraham did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abraham not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.]"

What 'custom' are you on about? Abraham did NOT give a tenth to Melchizedek on the basis of any custom in his time. He was not obligated to give anything to Melchizedek in the first place. Second, the Bible does not present Abraham's tithes as a matter of some "custom" - it was rather from his own volition that he gave tithes to Melchizedek.

Third, credible Biblical historians do not interprete Abraham's tithes as following any custom. One such scholarly work has already been cited: Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” (tr. by A. C. Campbell, 1814). Grotius argues that 'in the fourteenth chapter of Genesis, Abraham devoted to God a tenth part of the spoils,' - which does not underscore your argument at all. May I remind you that Grotius' scholarly piec is regarded today as a foundational work in international law?

Fourth, if Abraham was following some 'custom', then he would have tithed to another king rather than to Melchizedek. I want to ask this simple question: WHY was it to Melchizedek in particular that Abraham tithed to, and NOT to any other king? Please clarify that for me.

___

Gary: "[What Abraham did was NOT brought forward into the Mosaic law. Obviously God didn't want a tenth of war spoils as He only required 1.1% under the Levitical priesthood.]"

I'm afraid you're just parroting the same redundant arguments you picked up from antitithing blogs.

First, it is true that Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek was not subsumed within the Levitical system - it NEED NOT be. Rather, Hebrews 7:9 shows that BEFORE the Law was given, Levi gave tithes in Abraham. That points out simply that the Levitical tithes do not supercede Abraham's tithes.

Second, you cannot use the Mosaic Law to adjudicate over Abraham's tithes. It was not some 'custom' that underscores his tithes - Genesis 14 and Hebrews 7 show us instead that Abraham's tithes were pointing to the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Third, please do your maths properly: it was not 1.1% but far less. What was given to Eleazar the priest as a 'heave offering' was a mere '1/500' (about 0.002%) - see verses 27-29. Another portion (1/50 or 0.02%) was given to the Levites (verses 30). The point here is that the Levitical system does not define tithes for Abraham; nor was Abraham required to follow the stipulations of the Levitical system - Moses himself said that the Mosaic Law was not given to the fathers, including Abraham (Deut. 5:2-3).

Fourth, for those who argue that God's 'holy tithes' must always come from the holy land, does Numbers 31 which you argue not show that what was given as 'heave offering' came from OUTSIDE Israel in this instance? Please study your Bible for yourself rather than recycling shoddy arguments picked up from those who should know better!


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: "[YOU, youself, do NOT follow ANY of God's definitions for a tithe. YOU, yourself, do NOT follow any of God's instructions (ordinances, commands, or laws) telling you where to take the tithe. YOU have decided what is best rather than follow God's Word.]"

^^ This is rather hilarious. If you've been busy confusing issues for yourself, would it surprise anyone that you're becoming unnecessarily accusative? Were you following God's word when you tried to argue your eisegesis into Matthew 23:23 about a "PAYMENT" that just is NOT there in the text at all? I would have thought reason would help you here; but my surprise to read this frantic reactions from you - not that you have carefully demonstrated a solid understanding of what you argue.

___

Gary: "[Any normal person who studies the history of tithing in the Christian church will see how man has twisted and actually changed God's Word all for the benefit of man.]"

That's not a worry. If you knew the 'history' you're complaining about, you won't be throwing untenable assertions and ducking behind the KJV.

___

Gary: "[The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.]"

There we go again! All those 'generosity', 'sacrifical giving', 'from the heart' etc., are ALL taught in the OLD TESTAMENT as well! This is why we read Paul quoting directly from the Old Testament to teach NT giving. For antitithers to hide behind such word-games is a bit of a laugh. If such folks do not see that the OT actually teaches the very same principles of 'generousity, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to one's means', etc... then we can understand why the only thing they see is the legalism they argue.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

Seems you have a problem with math. To keep in very simple, I will use TLB here:

Numbers 31:26-27 (TLB)

26“You and Eleazar the priest and the leaders of the tribes are to make a list of all the loot, including the people and animals;

27then divide it into two parts. Half of it is for the men who were in the battle, and the other half is to be given to the people of Israel.

Numbers 31:28 (TLB)

28But first, the Lord gets a share of all the captives, oxen, donkeys, and flocks kept by the army. His share is one out of every five hundred.

1/500 = 0.2% of the Army’s share

Numbers 31:29 (TLB)

29Give this share to Eleazar the priest to be presented to the Lord by the gesture of waving before the altar.

Numbers 31:30 (TLB)

30Also levy a 2 percent tribute of all the captives, flocks, and cattle that are given to the people of Israel. Present this to the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle, for it is the Lord’s portion.”

2% of the people’s share

Total war spoils given = 1.1%

2% to the Levites – taken from the people of Israel’s share

.2% to the Lord – taken from the Army’s share

equals 1.1% of the total went to The Lord


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, thanks for the maths class - you still managed to fail, though. The numerical gymnastics is quite needless, unless you just wanted to serve a comic relief.

First, the TLB is a poor paraphrase - we all know that. After a revision in the late 1980s, the New Living Translation (NLT) was published in 1996. Isn't it ironic that the NLT does not have '2 percent', but rather 'one of every fifty' (1/50)? There's no other version I know that has '2 percent' in Numbers 31:30 - do you care to inform us of the manuscripts used for the TLB that says '2 percent' in the Hebrew texts on that verse?

Now, Numberse 31:28 - at least we agree it's '1/500' ('one out of every 500', NLT). Do the maths or just use a calc, you get 0.002%; not 0.2%. (BTW, 0.2% is the same as 1/5 or 'one out of five' - which is NOT what you find in that verse in any credible translation). So, verse 28 gives us 0.002%.

As for verse 30, other translations and versions point out it is '1/50' ('one of every fifty', NLT). That yields 0.02% (again, use your calculator for ease).

You add up 0.002 and 0.02, you get 0.022% - still a far cry from your 1.1%. In any case, the total added up yields less than 1%.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

I can see you need to go back to the third grade and learn simple math.

You said, "Now, Numberse 31:28 - at least we agree it's '1/500' ('one out of every 500', NLT). Do the maths or just use a calc, you get 0.002%; not 0.2%. (BTW, 0.2% is the same as 1/5 or 'one out of five' - which is NOT what you find in that verse in any credible translation). So, verse 28 gives us 0.002%."

1/500 = 0.002. Now to convert this to a percentage, you move the decimal point two places to the right, or multiply by 100. 1/500 = 0.002 = .2%

.2% is NOT the same as 1/5. .2 IS the same as 1/5. Again, move the decimal point two places to the right. 1/5 = 20%

The Holy Bible, King James Version

Numbers 31:30 (KJV) - And of the children of Israel’s half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

1/50 = .02 = 2%

I can't believe you keep arguing the math.

Your knowledge of math is even worse than your knowledge of the scripture.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

This is as easy as I can make it for you:

1/5 = 20%

2/5 = 40%

3/5 = 60%

4/5 = 80%

5/5 = 100%


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, you're right about the percentage conversions - my bad.

However, we're both wrong on our conclusions.

(a) 1/500 = 0.002 = 0.2%

(b) 1/50 = 0.02 = 2%

When we add them up, would that not be 2.2% instead of 1.1%?


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary,

Of course, the penny should have dropped by now that I was rather teasing you on the 'mathematical gymnastics'. It was needless, as I said earlier, and not many people actually take the time to carefully work them through. It was indeed 1.1%.

However, the point in all this was as I pointed out earlier: that "the Levitical system does not define tithes for Abraham; nor was Abraham required to follow the stipulations of the Levitical system - Moses himself said that the Mosaic Law was not given to the fathers, including Abraham (Deut. 5:2-3)."

One specific point I wanted you to realise was this: if you're using Numbers 31 to compare between Abraham's tithes and the Levitical tithes, it should have been clear that you were also making a case for paganism in the tribute that Israel gave for spoils of war in that chapter. Please think it through carefully, and if you still don't get it, let me know and I'll explain.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

One last comment.

In Genesis, the word "tithe" means a tenth, or tenth part. Therefore, when the word "tithe" is used with Abraham, it is a mathematical term, period. The word has nothing to do with God, religion, etc.

Once God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27 to be specifically a tenth of crops and animals, the KJV no longer uses the word "tithe" when referring to Abraham. The KJV makes a distinction when it uses the word "tenth" for Abraham and "tithe" for the Levitical tithe in Hebrews 7.

MOST versions of the Bible use the word "tenth" even in Genesis when referring to Abraham. Again, they use one word for Abraham (tenth) and the word "tithe" when referring to God's tithing commands.


Gwaine 6 years ago

I appreciate your 'last comment'; but it's rather skewed. (Something tells me you may be trying to wind me up just as I did you on the 'mathematical gymastics'... or maybe not :)).

Gary: "[In Genesis, the word "tithe" means a tenth, or tenth part. Therefore, when the word "tithe" is used with Abraham, it is a mathematical term, period. The word has nothing to do with God, religion, etc.]"

The word used for Abraham's 'tithes' is the very same word used for 'tithes' in the Levitical system - compare Gen. 14:20, KJV (for Abraham); Lev. 27:31, KJV (the Levitical system); and Num. 18:24, KJV (the children of Israel). Hence, to argue a 'mathematical term' for Abraham is to make a case for the same in the Levitical system, for the word used in all cases is the same in both the KJV and the Hebrew text.

___

Gary: "[Once God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27 to be specifically a tenth of crops and animals, the KJV no longer uses the word "tithe" when referring to Abraham. The KJV makes a distinction when it uses the word "tenth" for Abraham and "tithe" for the Levitical tithe in Hebrews 7.]"

But even holding unto the KJV, you will find indeed that in both the OT (Genesis 14:20) and the NT (Hebrews 7:6), the word used in reference to Abraham is "TITHES".

(a) Abraham gave Melchizedek 'TITHES' (Gen. 14:20, KJV)

(b) Melchizedek received 'TITHES' of Abraham (Heb. 7:6, KJV)

As you can see, beyond your argument for Leviticus 27, the Bible indeed uses the word 'tithes' in both the NT and OT for Abraham.

___

Gary: "[MOST versions of the Bible use the word "tenth" even in Genesis when referring to Abraham. Again, they use one word for Abraham (tenth) and the word "tithe" when referring to God's tithing commands.]"

That is true, and I agree with you. However, that is no reason to argue that the word 'tithe' was rather used only for the Levitical system. Let me expound a bit:

(a) as already highlighted, the same word 'tithe' is used BOTH for Abraham (Gen. 14:20 and Heb. 7:6, KJV) and Israel (Lev. 27:31 and Num. 18:24, KJV). In Hebrew the 'tithe' is [ma'aser/ma'asar/ma'asrah- Strong's ref. #4643] and refers to 'a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).'

(b) in all instances as cited above, the same Hebrew term [ma'aser/ma'asar/ma'asrah- Strong's ref. #4643] is used - there is absolutely no difference at all.

(c) Israel's tithes under the Levitical system is also called 'tenth'-

-->'the TENTH shall be holy unto the LORD' - Lev. 27:32, KJV

--> 'I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance' (Num. 18:21, KJV)

(d) In Numbers 18:21, the 'TENTH' in Israel is the same word used for 'tithe' in Hebrew [ma'aser/ma'asar/ma'asrah- Strong's ref. #4643] - which is an example where Israel's 'tithes' are also referred to as "tenth".

The point, of course, is that the same term is used for both Abraham's tithes and Israel's tithes under the Levitical system. Whether anyone prefers one term ('tenth') for the other ('tithe'), there's absolutely no difference in meaning.

Anyways, thanks for discussing. Cheers.


Ken 6 years ago

Wow!

As far as the topic of tithing, I agree with Gary.

Some of the related issues referred during this long argument seem a bit skewed. But often these are open to interpretation and not directly applicable to tithing. After all, Gary is a retired accountant and not a true biblical scholar. But he does back up his arguments on tithing with strong biblical quotes along with well thought out support from famous historical figures and current biblical scholars.

Let's talk about personal experience concerning tithing.

I've known a pastor that was dead set against the tithing principle and would agree with Gary. He even stopped a prominent member from making the tithing argument to the rest of the congregation. God truly blessed the church. It never suffered any serious financial woes and grew rapidly until our pastor was transferred to another church.

As with any change in pastor, attendance was hurt a little bit by the change. But it was still reparable. Then that new pastor allowed that same member to talk about tithing as a christian duty to the rest of the congregation.

Guess what happened. Attendance dropped dramatically. Those that remained gave less. Why?

Most that gave under the former pastor did so freely without hesitation. Some members could give very little because they were not in any position to do so. Thinking that they were obligated to pay 10% put them in worse financial condition. Some finally give up all together.

Many others used to give 20, 30, 40 or even 50% of their income to the church. Asking for at least 10% was limiting. It's a lot less than what the big givers normally gave. While some probably still give generously, I know others that are currently looking for a new church home.

The demand for more money is chasing many away. I know of some that held out from giving any more, to wait and see how things would pan out financially. This hording is a typical response of marginal members when they become aware of extensive church debts. This creates a vicious downward cycle as cutbacks are sequentially forced.

Another new pastor came along and the situation simply got worse even faster. 1600 members dropped to around 800 if you count those that no longer attending regularly. Currently, the very existence of that church is in danger and I myself am no longer a member.

All this (in my viewpoint) transpired after a shift in focus toward money in the church...instead of building relationships with one another and with Christ. Chasing after money for money's sake truly is the root of all evil. It's kind of like watching a dog chase his own tail, only less entertaining. Such is the case of placing a tithe as obligatory.

I recently became a member of a different church and unfortunately am going through something similar again. The fact is that I've never known a church that concentrates on obligatory tithing and does well financially. My guess is that the true spirit of the Lord has left as the money centric folks takeover. Other people feel it and leave too.

Congregants should be taught to give freely but be responsible. God truly rewards a cheerful giver, but will punish the fool.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

quote .. The fact is that I've never known a church that concentrates on obligatory tithing and does well financially..

You have not looked hard enough. There are ample ones.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo - Actually, many of the mega churches that teach the false prosperity doctrine teach tithing and those pastors are rich. But I, myself, have yet to find a small local church that does financially well that teaches tithing. Every one I've gone to begs for money and threatens curses, etc. to those who don't tithe. Very, very sad.

You can't dispute the facts of history. NO CHURCH in the US collected a tithe on anyone's income until the second half of the 1800s. That is well documented.


Ken 6 years ago

I don't like being in a mega church...just never thought about them demanding a tithe for membership. Tithing goes against the spirit of giving. Why?

It's legalistic and it's part of a practice that the Apostle Paul warns us against in Colosians 2:20-23 and the 3rd chapter of Galatians. We call this legalism today.

Tithing is based on Numbers 18 and Levitical laws, which by in large does not apply in the New Covenant. It is simply a wrong focus. Truly blessed giving (which is the correct behavior) is done freely and without coercion. It's not demanded.

You might say that the 10 commandments are part of this body of law that Christian must abide by...what's up with that?

Jesus summarized the 10 commandments as part of the New Covenant when he taught (in part from Matthew 22:37-40): 1) 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' 2) 'Love your neighbor as yourself'.

Doesn't this mean tithing is necessary? Is it even possible to tithe in a truly biblical sense?

I suppose you could invite members of the Levi tribe over to dinner each day. Just remember to not offer any pork.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Actually, many of the mega churches that teach the false prosperity doctrine teach tithing and those pastors are rich. But I, myself, have yet to find a small local church that does financially well that teaches tithing."]]

That comment is an 'ad hominem' fallacy. An argument against people does not strengthen your position at all; it rather weakens your apologetics and appeals only to uninformed folks. There are quite a number of local churches (small and large) that teach tithing and they do financially well - you probably haven't cared to look hard enough and just probably assume that no church teaching tithing could do financially well.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken: [["Tithing goes against the spirit of giving. Why?

It's legalistic and it's part of a practice that the Apostle Paul warns us against in Colosians 2:20-23 and the 3rd chapter of Galatians. We call this legalism today."]]

Actually, tithing is not against the spirit of giving. Tithing is an expression of giving, and there's actually no semantics round that. It is the argument to dragoon everything about tithing to just the Levitical system in a literal manner that is legalistic.

Legalism argues for the letter of the Law, rather than seeing the spirit of the Law. For those who understand the difference, there's no difficulty in seeing that the principles of NT giving are based in many instances on direct quotes from the Law without seeking a literal application of such OT verses.

____

Ken: [["Tithing is based on Numbers 18 and Levitical laws, which by in large does not apply in the New Covenant."]]

What Paul taught in the NT is based on the Law of Moses (see 1 Corinthians 9:9-14) - would you also argue that his teaching does not apply in the New Covenant simply because he was quoting from the Mosaic Law?

It is quite sad that many people who argue for the new covenant actually do not see that the apostles quoted directly from the Law of Moses and other parts of the OT for their NT teaching on so many Christian doctrines! If such folks only calmed down and read the Bible carefully, it would not be difficult to see these simple things.

____

Ken: [["Truly blessed giving (which is the correct behavior) is done freely and without coercion. It's not demanded."]]

If this "correct behaviour" is the only thing that defines NT giving, then there is nothing "new" about such principles - they are all found among the people of Israel who were under the Mosaic Law.

Perhaps you may not have read that such principles of "correct behaviour" are also found in the Law of Moses and the other parts of the OT - here are a few:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it WILLINGLY WITH HIS HEART ye shall take my offering" (Exodus 25:2, KJV).

"Then the people rejoiced, for that THEY OFFERED WILLINGLY, because with perfect heart they OFFERED WILLINGLY to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy." (1 Chron. 29:9, KJV).


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken: [["You might say that the 10 commandments are part of this body of law that Christian must abide by...what's up with that?"]]

The Decalogue includes a commandment about the Jewish sabbath (Exo. 20:8-11) - do you as a Christian also keep that in a literal manner as described in the Law of Moses? To apply the same legalistic arguments many antitithers make, we might say that if you disregard the sabbath exactly as it was stipulated in the Levitical Law (Exo. 20:8), then you don't truly have a 'Ten Commandment' you can carry over into Christianity - you could as well be speaking of a 'nine commandments' and the rest are excuses!

____

Ken: [["Jesus summarized the 10 commandments as part of the New Covenant when he taught (in part from Matthew 22:37-40): 1) 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' 2) 'Love your neighbor as yourself'."]]

Right. If the 10 Commandments were "summarised" in Matthew 22:37-40, then a 'seventh day' sabbath in Exo. 20:8-11 was also "summarised" in that passage, is it? Perhaps you don't seem to understand the implication of your own comments.

It was not just the 10 Commandments that are "summarised" in Matt. 22:37-40 - please look again: those two commandments (love for God and neighbour) are the foundation of "ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS", and not just the 10 Commandments.

We know that there's no argument for a literal 'seventh day' sabbath for Christians, even though Heb. 4:9 says that "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God" (NIV). The NT 'sabbath' (if we could call it that) is not a literal application of a seventh day kept in a legalism of the letter - yet the "principle" remains.

____

Ken: [["Doesn't this mean tithing is necessary? Is it even possible to tithe in a truly biblical sense?"]]

Let me also ask you: is it even possible to keep the 10 Commandments in a truly Biblical sense?

The moment you see the legalism in your arguments, the easier it will become to see how weak they are!


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Gary, again, you have a habit of lumping all the pastors that teach the tithe into one convenient group of greedy and lustful seekers of filthy lucre. Truly you are not that ignorant??

Ken, tithing for today's tither is of faith, NOT THE LAW.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo,

Please stop misquoting me. Where did I ever say that pastors that teach the tithe are "greedy and lustful seekers of filthy lucre?"

No one pays the Biblical tithe today. Many church goers do give a tenth of their income to the church, but that has nothing to do with the Biblical tithe.

You seem to be confused between the Biblical tithe, and Biblical giving.

Pastors who quote Malachi 3:8-10, robbing God, are talking about the law of tithing, NOT giving from the heart.

I can only speak from my limited experience, but every church I have attended teaches that you are robbing God if you don't tithe. They say God requires it. THEY are truly speaking of the LAW OF TITHING, not some cheerful giving. They quote Matthew 23:23 where Jesus even says MATTERS OF THE LAW.

Apparently you haven't experienced the legalistic pastor who teaches the LAW of tithing.

I GIVE out of LOVE. I expect nothing in return. I give because it is in my heart to give. The Spirit puts in my heart where to give, and how much to give, and it's far, far, far, far, far more than a tenth of my income.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

These are things you have said, Gary ..

quote .. Tithing today does NOT show obedience to God or love of God. It shows ignorance which is being perpetuated by dishonest and/or ignorant preachers who obviously have little faith. I know of many pastors who know that tithing ended at the cross but who continue teaching and collecting the tithe to keep the money coming in...end quote

quote .. Church leaders have essentially diluted the tithe from God’s miracles to man’s achievements. In other words, in the tithing formula, man has replaced God with himself!.. end quote

quote .. Church leaders have cheapened God's tithe by teaching that God requires you to tithe on your income. God's tithe was NEVER on anything that man made or earned.. end quote

quote .. This makes me very sad indeed, knowing how the masses of people have been brainwashed by dishonest and ignorant church leaders.. end quote

quote .. My beef is with dishonest (and ignorant) pastors who teach that tithing is required, and that you are robbing God if you don't give a tenth of your income to their church.. end quote

quote .. Pastors who teach that tithing is required today, or that the Bible teaches that ten persent is the starting point for giving, are defrauding the worker of his wages.. end quote

quote .. YOU'VE BEEN DUPED BY DISHONEST OR IGNORANT PASTORS.. end quote

quote .. God warns us of false teachers, but this blog proves that Christians are gullible and believe whatever their pastor tells them. You ignore God's Word and follow what man teaches. VERY, VERY SAD.. end quote

quote .. The Rev. Laird is interpreting scripture to enrich his bank account. He takes a verse out of context and uses it for his own benefit.. end quote

You are right Gary, but you have pretty much stated over and over how you feel about Pastors who teach the tithe.

I give out of love as well. And I do expect something in return. Why? Because God says for me to expect something. And I too give much more than ten percent. And I AM A TITHER by faith. Furthermore, I would NOT attend a church where the Pastor did not teach on and believe that tithing is for today's believer. If I came across a church where the Pastor or leaders were anti-tithing, I would RUN RUN RUN from such false doctrine.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [[“You seem to be confused between the Biblical tithe, and Biblical giving”]]

Please tell us the difference between them, and show us where the Bible specifically says that tithing is not giving.

____

Gary: [[“Apparently you haven't experienced the legalistic pastor who teaches the LAW of tithing.”]]

Does it then mean that every pastor who teaches tithing does so only out of legalism from the so-called ‘law of tithing’?

Does it make sense at all to argue wholesale against tithing just because of your own limited experience? How many churches have you carefully checked out that you would come to the conclusion that you are advancing?

____

Gary: [[“I GIVE out of LOVE. I expect nothing in return. I give because it is in my heart to give.”]]

Blowing your own trumpet adds nothing to your position over anyone else’s. Please understand that there are many people who give out of love even when they give a tithe (or ‘tenth’) of their income, as well above that for other causes in the Body of Christ. Claiming that you give ‘far, far, far, far, far more’ than the tenth should only well remind us of the self-encomium which Jesus discountenanced in Luke 18:9-14.

With regards to giving out of love and to ‘expect nothing in return’, please read Luke 6:35 again, carefully. Jesus spoke about ‘expecting nothing in return’ in connection to ‘LENDING’, in the sense of being repaid with interest - it is something akin to USURY, and He was teaching a general principle well known in the OT in benevolent relationships (see Lev. 25:36-37; Deut. 23:19, and Psa. 15:5, KJV). It is in that sense of ‘LENDING’ that Jesus spoke about not expecting anything in return; and there is a world of difference between giving and lending/borrowing (see Matt. 5:42).

However, Jesus Himself taught believers to give and expect blessings in return. Luke 6:38 is an easy example: “Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again” (Luke 6:38).

The apostle Paul also taught the same principle of giving and receiving in 2 Corinthians 9:6 & 10. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting to receive blessing from giving - that is clearly what the Bible teaches Christians.


Ken 6 years ago

I don't understand how people could miss my point made through obvious sarcasm. I'm not actually displaying legalism through my argument but confronting it head on.

Of course, we give because of our faith. But don't confuse tithing with giving. Tithing is not giving at all. It is a demand from those who impose their belief that 10% payment to the local church is a requirement to be considered a good Christian. It's a standard of judgment by a few over the many.

Just remember there is a reason that the body of Christ reacts they way it usually does to such a public judgment.

I have no problem with someone giving 10% because they feel the spirit of the Lord is calling them to do so. They can talk about it through testimony all they want. Where I have a problem is when they start to express judgment on others with a Holier Than Thou attitude.

Anybody who argues against tithing is immediately branded a non-giver, which is blatantly false. Plenty of Christians that do not believe in tithing doctrine give generously to an extreme.

If you want to live by the law, then you will be judged by the law. We choose to live by faith instead. The standards Jesus talked about where unreachable for anybody. He deliberated set those standards that high so that our depraved condition should be obvious to anyone.

We as Christians recognize that we cannot do it ourselves. We need Jesus to bridge the gap between us and God. And we need the power of the Holy Spirit to live like we should. This can only be done through pure faith in the promise of our redemption given to us through Christ's death and resurrection.

Christ already died for our sins. We don't another guilt trip to modify our behavior to your liking. Do you not believe in free will? Do you not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to prod us to do the right thing.

I fail to understand how others cannot see how tithing doctrine divides the Christian community in dreadful ways. It is the third rail of religion. If you take sides and speak up, you are wrong. If you remain silent, then you are wrong as well. It is my opinion that something so divisive for no good reason cannot be from God.

Therefore, I choose to speak up against it so that I might be castigated and persecuted for my faith in Christ. Granted I am not a martyr, but sometimes I feel like one.


Ken 6 years ago

Gwaine, I see no reason that Gary should do so. He has explained those points exhaustively over the past year on this blog. (Gary you may do so, if you wish. That's up to you). To find the answer, all you need to do is read all the previous posts in this comment blog.

Read the Bible in context. You will find that there are only 16 verses that directly reference tithing, tithe, tithes or tenth. In all instances tithing in context refers to something edible. Never does it refer to wages or earnings. It is only from items gathered from the land.

In other words, it is a tenth of what directly comes from God. It is a requirement of the Old Testament Law for the Israelite. Gentiles were never under the scope of this requirement -- just like what Paul said about other dietary restrictions.

Modern concept of tithing did not come about until around 1870. Yet, people have given freely to the Church for almost 2000 years before this supposed 10% requirement. The fact is that it is a modern re-manufacturing of the term to manipulate people.

Those that try to support the argument constantly bring up verses that support giving, which is different than tithing. It always has been.

John Wesley said we should "earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can". Nowhere did he ever push the idea of modern tithing.

You might say that this is simply an argument over semantics. But it actually goes much deeper. When tithing doctrine proponents blatantly misquote historic figures and the Bible to support their position, there is something very wrong with their argument.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken,

If you find sarcasm in my reply to yours, it was not intended. It makes me wonder that you would complain about that, when you have indeed used the same thing you can't handle.

Ken: [["Of course, we give because of our faith. But don't confuse tithing with giving. Tithing is not giving at all. It is a demand from those who impose their belief that 10% payment to the local church is a requirement to be considered a good Christian. It's a standard of judgment by a few over the many."]]

Tithing is an expression of giving. I don't know how many local churches would make any type of giving a requirement to be considered a good Christian when you already tried to make giving a matter of "good behaviour". This was why I questioned your semantics around both terms. Those who oppose the principle of tithing are often too full of themselves that they forget they also set up their own standard of judgement over others.

____

Ken: [["Just remember there is a reason that the body of Christ reacts they way it usually does to such a public judgment."]]

Many people would react for various reasons - and the situation is not helped by those arguing against the principle of tithing by confusing issues with legalistic arguments.

____

Ken: [["I have no problem with someone giving 10% because they feel the spirit of the Lord is calling them to do so. They can talk about it through testimony all they want. Where I have a problem is when they start to express judgment on others with a Holier Than Thou attitude."]]

I often hear antitithers singing that tired old song of 'I have no problem with someone giving 10%' - it is all empty talk. If we have no problem with anyone giving a tenth (same as a 'tithe' or '10%' or '1/10'), what is the argument from antitithers who are bent on making everyone stop tithing altogether?

Indeed, we should all oppose any form of giving that is manipulative or coercive. But many people use the tenth as a principle of their giving in a voluntary manner, and we should all be able to genuinely appreciate that.

And yes, I also have a huge problem with most of these antitithing folks who complain about a 'holier-than-thou-attitude' and yet they themselves are quite at ease to magnify their own sanctimony when they blow their trumpets!

____

Ken: [["Anybody who argues against tithing is immediately branded a non-giver, which is blatantly false. Plenty of Christians that do not believe in tithing doctrine give generously to an extreme."]]

You're just sounding off. Indeed, I cannot claim that nobody (tither or non-tither) gives, nor could I deny that many non-tithing Christians give generously; but the fact is that far more many Christians who have a problem with giving a tenth are the same people who find excuses for giving far less than that - and that is a FACT that is attested by research over the years. Please ask, and I will gladly give you tons of examples.

If a majority of Christians (especially in the USA) give 'generously to an extreme', why is giving in American churches so dismal? If we all gave ABOVE a tenth of our income, who would be so concerned about the drop in giving in the American church?


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken: [["If you want to live by the law, then you will be judged by the law. We choose to live by faith instead."]]

Just because some Christians choose to express their giving by the principle of the tenth, does that mean they want to be judged by the Law? You're mixing up issues between faith and law.

There are many godly people who lived by faith even during the Mosaic Law (see Hebrews 11:32) - this should make it clear to you that faith is not contrary to the Law. Jesus indeed declared that "faith" is one of the 'weightier matters of the Law' (Matt. 23:23, KJV) and it is by faith that one can understand and fulfil the Law (James 2:8).

Although we are not under the Law (Rom. 6:14), we understand that the Christian cannot void the Law by 'faith' (Rom. 3:31). Indeed, the Law is holy and spiritual (Rom. 7:12 & 14), and it is by faith through the Holy Spirit that the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in the Christian (Rom. 8:3-4). As a tither, I am not living under the Law nor am I calling any Christian to come under Judaism. A Christian can indeed find principles in the OT for faith in the NT; and we have seen already that Paul taught NT doctrine directly from the Law of Moses (1 Cor. 9:9-10) without asking us to come under Judaism.

However, I am not ashamed to confront the shoddy handling of the Law by those who pretend they know all about 'grace' more than others, and yet reveal a very pitiful legalistic hermeneutics.

____

Ken: [["Do you not believe in free will? Do you not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to prod us to do the right thing."]]

I am a proponent of freewill; but our call to freedom in Christ is not a licence for careless or legalistic lifestyles (1 Cor. 8:9; Gal. 5:13). If the Holy Spirit helps many Christians in different ways to express their giving by the principle of tithing and to grow beyond that, is it not macabre for antitithers to argue forever to make every Christian altogether stop tithing? Are these antitithers the secretaries to the Holy Spirit that they therefore conclude that no Christian ought to teach tithing in any form?

Let me remind you that I am opposed to all forms of manipulative or coercive giving. However, there is absolutely nothing to be argued against those who voluntarily express their giving by the principle of the tenth or in some other way - as long as they don't use such liberties as a licence for cheap talk and stingy lifestyles in giving.

___

Ken: [["Therefore, I choose to speak up against it so that I might be castigated and persecuted for my faith in Christ. Granted I am not a martyr, but sometimes I feel like one."]]

Please don't make me laugh! I'm not being sarcastic, but do you realise how very accusative antitithers can be? In other places where I have tried to reason with some of them, it often turns out that they are so accusative and malignant that 'persecution' becomes a mild term by contrast.

On the other hand, some legalistic tithers are no better. We know of instances where derogatory langauge have been used as a means to resist reason.

However, to just stand up to speak against tithing is merely being reactive and a form of bandwagon casuistry. Instead of taking sides and thereby further widening the division in the Body of Christ, we could focus on the real problem (manipulative and mandatory giving) rather than attack tithing wholesale.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken: [["Gwaine, I see no reason that Gary should do so. He has explained those points exhaustively over the past year on this blog. (Gary you may do so, if you wish. That's up to you). To find the answer, all you need to do is read all the previous posts in this comment blog."]]

Unfortunately, there's been no sense in Gary's legalistic points - which was why I offered him another opportunity to distinguish between those terms if he's found something more of substance. For someone to go about forcing the fallacy that Jesus called tithes a 'PAYMENT' in Matthew 23:23 is myopic, to say the least. The KJV rendering of that verse may be misleading, but why would Jesus be recommending such legalism to His listeners IF that was the meaning behind that verse?

That was just an example; but since antitithers often reharsh the propaganda that tithing is not giving, I think it is about time that they wake up and stop littering the web with such fallacies.

____

Ken: [["Read the Bible in context. You will find that there are only 16 verses that directly reference tithing, tithe, tithes or tenth. In all instances tithing in context refers to something edible. Never does it refer to wages or earnings. It is only from items gathered from the land. "]]

I have read those verses in context; but I do not see where you can sustain that argument of 'farm produce' in Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek. Whether the term was mentioned only once or a hundred times in the entire Bible is not the real issue; for the very fact that what Abraham gave to Melchizedek are called TITHES in both the OT (Gen. 14:20) and the NT (Heb. 7:6), that should make us think outside the box and should be sufficient for the FACT.

The tired old argument that Biblical tithes are ONLY of farm produce is just brainless legalism. Abraham indeed gave a tithe of spoils of war to Melchizedek - but do we realise that spoils of war in Biblical times may also most certainly include GARMENTS, SILVER and GOLD? (see Joshua 7:21 - do the 'shekels of silver' remind you of something akin to money?). Sanctimonious theologians who act like spoils of war in the OT had no place in worship should look again at 1 Chron. 26:27 - "Out of the spoils won in battles did they dedicate to maintain the house of the LORD" (KJV).

You may not like what you read in my response, but I think it is about time to call the brainless rants of legalistic antitithing theologians into question! Simpletons just parrot the same shoddy cliches they pick up from these theologians without a careful study of the Bible they purport to know more than tithing Christians. When someone comes along and begins to question so many of those antitithing fallacies, they quickly resort to 'ad hominem' arguments and name-calling instead of simply retiring their very misleading bloopers.

Ken: [["In other words, it is a tenth of what directly comes from God. It is a requirement of the Old Testament Law for the Israelite. Gentiles were never under the scope of this requirement -- just like what Paul said about other dietary restrictions."]]

I agree with you on some points, bro Ken. However, you leave a lot more questions than answers.

When Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, where did his victory come from? Did it come from man or from God (Gen. 14:20)? If a tenth is of what directly comes from God, what did Melchizedek mean by 'blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand'?

Indeed tithing was obligatory unto Israel under the Law; but we know that the Law did not originate the tithes. Since the Law for the Levitical tithes were not for Gentiles, then who was Melchizedek when Abraham gave tithes to him? Was Melchizedek a 'Jew' when he received tithes from Abraham? Was Melchizedek a 'Jew' when Levi also paid tithes to him through Abraham (Heb. 7:9)? We know that Melchizedek was a Gentile (or 'non-Jew'), as his ancestry is not traced from Jewish lineage. Since Abraham's tithes to the Gentile priest-king are not an afterthought in either the OT or NT, why would anyone suppose that all mention of tithing in the Bible should be narrowed to just the Levitical tithes in a legalistic manner?

Perhaps many of us as Christians need to see the big picture for ourselves rather than parrot the shoddy scholarship of legalistic antitithing theologians. These issues should not be difficult for anyone who takes a holistic view of God's Word.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken: [["Modern concept of tithing did not come about until around 1870. Yet, people have given freely to the Church for almost 2000 years before this supposed 10% requirement. The fact is that it is a modern re-manufacturing of the term to manipulate people."]]

There are many words in Christianity today that we do not find mentioned in one verse of Scripture. Where in the Bible did you read the word 'Trinity' - and many Christians today have no problem believing the apostles taught it even though that word came into Christian vocabulary centuries after that apostles.

So with tithing - it may be a recent understanding or proportional giving; and it may surprise you that the Bible is NOT against proportional giving. Some theologians who shy away from tithing yet cannot deny that the NT reveals proportional giving.

While people may yap on about church giving 'freely' for almost 2000 years, what does research tell you about the appalling drop of giving in Church in the last decade? Even your own boasting about 'plenty of Christians' who give generously "to an extreme" is an extreme farce, since research shows that a majority of Christians in America do not even give above 2.5% of their income.

___

Ken: [["Those that try to support the argument constantly bring up verses that support giving, which is different than tithing. It always has been."]]

Please show us the difference between giving and tithing. The silly antitithing semantics and word-games around these two terms are boring us all to death already! Abraham 'GAVE' tithes (Gen. 14:20) or Abraham 'GAVE' a tenth part of all (Heb. 7:2) - how is 'tithing' not an expression of 'giving'?

If others have used verses that support giving in discussing tithing, what then would you say about the apostle who used verses that had absolutely NOTHING to do with any type of 'giving'? What has Deut. 25:4 got to do with 'giving' in Church when Paul quoted that verse from the Law of Moses in 1 Cor. 9:9? What has Exodus 16:18 got to do with any type of 'giving' in Church that the apostle quoted that verse in 2 Cor. 8:15?

Legalists are too concerned about what verses others use in discussing tithing, and yet these dear antitithing folks will not cough at all on the fact that the apostles quoted the Law of Moses to teach NT doctrines on giving, even though some of those verses quoted by the apostles had absolutely NOTHING to do with any type of 'giving' in context! It is sickening to see the hypocrisy of arguing about some verses in a legalistic manner when such folks cannot see the implications of their own assertions.

There is no problem with quoting any verse in the Bible (OT or NT) to teach voluntary tithing or any other expression of giving. What is problematic is twin concerns of: (a) the legalism that misses the spirit of the Word and lays emphasis on the letter on the one hand; and (b) the issue of manipulative and coercive tithing/giving - these two issues are the basic concerns among many Christians, rather than word games around tithing and/or giving.

___

Ken: [["John Wesley said we should "earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can". Nowhere did he ever push the idea of modern tithing."]]

John Wesley was a man of his word; and antitithers who are trying to quote him had better shut up if they do not live after his example! How many antitithers do you know who live on less than 5% of their income and give away the rest?

Wesley did not argue to make Christians altogether stop tithing. He did not set the tenth as the goal or all Christian giving; but he certainly did not condemn anyone on expressing their giving in any manner or any proportion, as long as they do not stint themselves on such measures. If Wesley was a man who genuinely lived by what he preached, how many antitither quoting him to support their argument can live like Wesley and promptly give away over 90% of their income?

____

Ken: [["You might say that this is simply an argument over semantics. But it actually goes much deeper. When tithing doctrine proponents blatantly misquote historic figures and the Bible to support their position, there is something very wrong with their argument"]]

Without sounding sarcastic, I've questioned your semantics and still see no substance in your word games. Just above also, I very deeply doubt the reason for your referring to John Wesley as if he opposed tithing. What are antitithers doing when they misquote historical resources to deceive the unsuspecting reader?


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Thank you Gwaine!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

I will repeat this again: NO ONE PAYS OR GIVES THE BIBLICAL TITHE TODAY. Christians incorrectly call their giving of a tenth of their income a tithe which confuses many into believing the Biblical tithe was a tenth of income.

One of my godsons and his family attend a church in California. They are very active in the church. My godson made it known to his pastor that he doesn't believe in tithing, but does believe in giving. His pastor said that they cannot join that church unless they agree to tithe. His pastor says that if they don't tithe, they are robbing God and cannot be a member of that church.

A church I am familiar with in California now requires a copy of form W-2 each year so that they can check to make sure you gave a tenth AS REQUIRED BY GOD. If you didn't give a tenth of your income to that church, you cannot hold any position in that church.

The pastor of another church I am familiar with recently "fired" all members of his staff that didn't tithe to that church. The following Sunday that pastor told his congregation that those who didn't give on a regular basis should leave that church.

People like you, Gwaine, are a part of the problem because you introduce CONFUSION when you call your giving, tithing. You apparently don't have the knowledge, or experience, or insight to see how corrupt so many pastors are, and what one person calls tithing another person calls giving.

It is CONFUSING to many Christians when you take the word "tithe" from the Bible, which God Himself defined, and use it for another meaning.

People who insist on using the word tithe when giving just don't see or understand what is happening in the church today. I see it daily because this topic is my whole ministry. I read far too many stories of people who have so-called "tithed" by charging it on their credit card because the pastor told them God wanted them to tithe. I know of Christians who have refused to help their own children because they said all they had left was their tithe that they had to give to the church. I know of people who "tithe" while their children go to school dressed in rags.

EVERY church I have attended teaches the LEGALISTIC tithe, but change the definition and ordinances to fit their own pocketbook. And I have attended many churches during the past several years - nearly all in the poorest areas of town, where many of the people come to church wearing clothes held together with safety pins, etc. And yet their pastor will tell them they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

As far as I am concerned, teaching and collecting the tithe today is a moral crime.

I, myself, refuse to be a part of this crime. That is why I flat out tell pastors who request my attendance at their church that IF I hear the word tithe at offering time, I will get up and walk out of their church.

And you want to label me and others against tithing as being legalistic! YOU are the blind leading the blind. You just can't see the problem, and have become a part of the problem.

I will pray for you and others like you, but there is no point in going further with this argument with you. Only God can change you. He changed me. I was also taught to tithe but thank God that He showed me what was going on in the church, and He showed me the truth.


Gwaine 6 years ago

@Debradoo, thanks for your compliments.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, you can repeat yourself ad infinitum, but you're only sounding like a broken record and have progressed nothing beyond those empty rhetorics. We've been through them before, so if you do have anything of substance to share, do so in all simplicity.

For the moment, I'll just very quickly run through your latest concerns.

Gary: [["I will repeat this again: NO ONE PAYS OR GIVES THE BIBLICAL TITHE TODAY. Christians incorrectly call their giving of a tenth of their income a tithe which confuses many into believing the Biblical tithe was a tenth of income."]]

I can be thankful that we're not under the legalism of your antitithing arguments. The word 'tithe' merely means a 'tenth' (or if you may, it is 10% or 1/10 or - - - [fill in the gap]). That word is used in Scripture in a variety of ways, and I have asked you to show us the difference between 'giving' and 'tithing'. Your confusion is yours alone - that is why you keep repeating yourself over and over on your legalism and then accuse others of your own confusion.

___

Gary: [["One of my godsons and his family attend a church in California. They are very active in the church. My godson made it known to his pastor that he doesn't believe in tithing, but does believe in giving. His pastor said that they cannot join that church unless they agree to tithe. His pastor says that if they don't tithe, they are robbing God and cannot be a member of that church."]]

Please keep your tall tales. Did your godson explain the difference between 'giving' and 'tithing'? The fallacies from semantics and word games you guys spread abroad is actually boring! I could as well tell you stories from my own experience, where I actually read an antitither online say that any Christian who is tithing is going to hell! Another one claims that Christians who are tithing are sinning - when I asked how that is the case, he showered me with insults without ever addressing my enquiry.

Now you tell me: between not joining a church and being condemned to hell because of 'tithing', which is more heinous? You probably assume that the stories you tell is all that settles your troubles?

____

Gary: [["People like you, Gwaine, are a part of the problem because you introduce CONFUSION when you call your giving, tithing. You apparently don't have the knowledge, or experience, or insight to see how corrupt so many pastors are, and what one person calls tithing another person calls giving."]]

I knew it won't be long before your typical antitithing frustration turns to empty accuations. For the record, I'm not your confusion. I have rather asked you to show me where the Bible said that 'tithing' is not 'giving' - you only came back with tall tales. If you had shown me the difference between those terms, then you most probably would have made your point.

Yes, I have noted that tithing is an expression of giving - I used simple examples from Scripture. If tithing is not an exprtession of giving, please tell us what it is.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["It is CONFUSING to many Christians when you take the word "tithe" from the Bible, which God Himself defined, and use it for another meaning."]]

It is God's Word that directly refers to Abraham's gift to Melchizedek as "TITHES" in both the OT and NT. If they were not tithes as an expression of giving in that example, then please go and re-write your own 'inspired' bible and save us all your complaints. I have earlier pointed out to you that there's absolutely no difference between the words used for Abraham's and the Levitical tithes - it is the very same Hebrew words that the Holy Spirit used in the inspired volumes. If you have a problem with that FACT, I cannot help you any further, as it would become clear to me that you're no longer interested in reading God's Word and just want to remain with your narrow views.

____

Gary: [["People who insist on using the word tithe when giving just don't see or understand what is happening in the church today. I see it daily because this topic is my whole ministry."]]

I'm afraid you simply don't have a clue about the hypocrisy of antitithers who tell you that they have no problems with anyone who gives a "tenth" or "10%" or a "tithe", and yet spend their entire lives trying to stop everyone else from what they pretend to agree with! That hypocrisy is the bigger problem than any other concerns about what terms to use for our giving. We see such empty rhetorics daily among antitithers, but we do not need to spend the rest of our lives on that one topic.

Please don't take my remarks personal, Gary. I have emphasized that the real problem is not about whatever term we prefer, but rather that all forms of manipulative or coercive giving/tithing have no place in the Body of Christ - that is what we should focus on. If therefore some Christians choose to express their giving by 'proportions', or 'systematically', or as a 'percentage' of their income, there should be no problem with that as long as they do so CHEERFULLY and VOLUNTARILY.

Going out campaigning to stop every Christian altogether from expressing their giving through the principle of tithing is the form of legalism that has encouraged the selfishness and empty talk in the Church at large.

____

Gary: [["I read far too many stories of people who have so-called "tithed" by charging it on their credit card because the pastor told them God wanted them to tithe. I know of Christians who have refused to help their own children because they said all they had left was their tithe that they had to give to the church. I know of people who "tithe" while their children go to school dressed in rags."]]

And what is that supposed to resolve for your antitithing campaign? The way you complain only makes me wonder at the emptiness of your claims! The simple logic just does not add up. Do the maths:

If someone gave only '1 out of 10' of his income and still had serious problems financially, please tell me how such a person would ever come back to make us believe that your antitithing campaign would encourage such a person to give "far, far, far, far, far more than" the tenth?!? Please explain the logic to us!

The reality behind your stories is just this: someone who cannot afford to give 1/10 cannot come back claiming he could give more than that! In fact, it only adds up to one thing: he would find the antitithing campaign a perfect excuse for giving FAR LESS than a tenth.

This is why all the talk from antitithing theologians about "sacrificial giving" is just empty talk! If a tenth (which is NOT the goal of Christian giving) is difficult, then is it what is above a tenth that would be easier to proffer as "sacrificial"? Please do the maths - I want to be entertained again by that "mathematical magic" of yours! :))


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["EVERY church I have attended teaches the LEGALISTIC tithe, but change the definition and ordinances to fit their own pocketbook."]]

You must have attended a very select sample of churches to pick out your legalistic tithes. In reality, there are quite a number of churches around the world that teach a voluntary tithing principle, and it would only be fair to genuinely recognize the fact. I don't think it makes any sense for you to repeatedly try to make a sweeping generalization of 'EVERY church' that is inclined to tithing.

____

Gary: [["And I have attended many churches during the past several years - nearly all in the poorest areas of town, where many of the people come to church wearing clothes held together with safety pins, etc. And yet their pastor will tell them they are robbing God if they don't tithe."]]

And that is supposed to be the perfect picture of all churches that teach tithing? Again, you're committing a fallacy of argument that hardly makes any sense.

Gary, I have also been to places where some antitithing legalists only complain about what others are doing and will never themselves help the poor. These folks tell everyone else how not to give and talk so much about the "proper method" of giving; yet, in pretending to care for "the poor", it turns out that they are the summary of Judas' hypocrisy in John 12:4-6.

____

Gary: [["As far as I am concerned, teaching and collecting the tithe today is a moral crime."]]

Oh, I see. Have you asked your antitithing monks why they agree with some pastors who teach tithing? I know what I'm talking about, so you can tear out your hair for all I care if that fact bothers you. If teaching and collecting tithes is a moral crime, why are your antitithing heroes applauding the same thing that they condemn at large?

Besides all this, since you restrict your legalistic tithes to only farm produce, why are you complaining as if any pastor is collecting farm produce as tithes from farm yards in Israel? Unless you want to argue that they are collecting your narrow idea of tithing by the letter of the Law, I see no basis for your accusation.

You see why the antitithing brigade is a boring lot! You guys are never consistent and very quickly resort to broad generalizations in your sanctimonious accusations against others. Not good, my brother... not good.

____

Gary: [["I, myself, refuse to be a part of this crime. That is why I flat out tell pastors who request my attendance at their church that IF I hear the word tithe at offering time, I will get up and walk out of their church."]]

So, what settles church fellowship for you is whether or not a church makes any mention of the word 'tithes', yes? Please just stick yourself in a dark corner - NOBODY has to pay you any attention nor even miss you for not attending their church! The arrogance that comes from you guys is appalling!

____

Gary: [["And you want to label me and others against tithing as being legalistic! YOU are the blind leading the blind. You just can't see the problem, and have become a part of the problem"]]

I don't go about with labels until people qualify themselves accordingly. Since you're too full of yourself that you can't see how repugnant your self-righteousness is, then enjoy your sanctimonious cloak and let others be.

____

Gary: [["I will pray for you and others like you, but there is no point in going further with this argument with you. Only God can change you. He changed me. I was also taught to tithe but thank God that He showed me what was going on in the church, and He showed me the truth."]]

I dropped the fallacies of antitithers when I saw how henious they are. I have tried to discuss them with those who are still spreading those fallacies - you will surprise yourself when you read the casuistry spewing from these folks. The 'grace' that many antitithers pretend to have is many times all too forgotten when they need it the most.

Cheers.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

OK, Gwaine, with all your empty words, NOW please show me where the New Testament teaches that Christians should tithe, can tithe, are allowed to tithe, or any reference to Christians tithing. Your words are empty without scripture backup.

IF you can't show me with scripture, then I guess man made it up, or man claims to be following what man believes to be an Old Testament so-called principle.

IF you just took the time to research the history of tithing in the Christian Church, you would silence yourself from spitting out all your empty words.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, I am prepared to discuss this subject with you as long as you're not going to bore us with your emphasis on the letter of the Law. As soon as you can show me any verse that says that tithing is not giving, I will engage you.


Ken 6 years ago

Gwaine,

The sarcasm I referred to was on my part. It was against the legalism for which you turned right around and accused me of. I apologize for not be as clear as necessary.

It was not directed toward anyone commenting on this board. I assumed my intent was self-evident...especially when I added that we could invite members of the Levi tribe over to dinner(which of course is impossible for most). The pork remark should have definitely been a dead give away.

You exhaustively went over my remarks and twisted them into something I never intended to say. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I will not spam this board as you seem to be intent on doing. Are you really that concerned that others do not believe in the 10% tithe rule?

You act as if you're trying to save my soul. It's OK. Jesus already did that. There's no need to do it again.

My main concern is how fast and furious a few people have confronted Gary without reading or understanding what he actually stated. He's been forced to repeat himself several times. It's unfair to argue with someone in such a way. It's completely unproductive.

I must assume that you simply like to argue for arguments sake. It's OK. Some people are just like that. But I see no need for me to participate.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Abraham GAVE tithes:

Genesis 14:20 "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.

And he gave him tithes of all."

Hebrews 7:2 "To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;"

Hebrews 7:4 "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils."

Levi PAID tithes:

Hebrews 7:9 "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham." Note: this doesn't say that Abraham payed tithes, it says Levi payed tithes.

Scribes and Pharasees PAID tithes:

Matthew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

The KJV uses the word "tithe" with Abraham in Genesis, but CHANGES that word to "tenth" in Hebrews 7. Once God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27, the KJV no longer uses the word "tithe" for Abraham's gift. Levi PAID tithes in Abraham, not Abraham paid tithes. All other versions of the Bible I have checked use the word tenth with Abraham even in Genesis.

2 weeks ago I said, "What Abraham did was NOT brought forward into the Mosaic law. Obviously God didn't want a tenth of war spoils as He only required 1.1% under the Levitical priesthood."

That started an big argument with you that my math was wrong. In one comment you wrote, "Third, please do your maths properly: it was not 1.1% but far less." Then, in another blog you wrote, "Gary, thanks for the maths class - you still managed to fail, though." and "You add up 0.002 and 0.02, you get 0.022% - still a far cry from your 1.1%. In any case, the total added up yields less than 1%." Then on a later comment you said, "Gary, you're right about the percentage conversions - my bad." and "However, we're both wrong on our conclusions." and "

When we add them up, would that not be 2.2% instead of 1.1%?" Next comment you said, "Of course, the penny should have dropped by now that I was rather teasing you on the 'mathematical gymnastics'."

My point in bringing this up is that is shows the type of person you are. No matter what, you aren't going to admit that you were wrong.

Therefore, I am done debating this with you. Now it is between you and God.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary,

I made a simple request: "As soon as you can show me any verse that says that tithing is not giving, I will engage you". Where is the verse that says that tithing is not giving?

Is it any surprising that after blowing hot and cold, you have not been able to point out such a verse, and then very quickly excuse yourself with being "done debating this"?

Why is it that you guys just like to wave your snakeoil salesmanship all over the place without a clue about what you are arguing? What has happened to the verse that says that tithing is not giving, Gary? WHERE is that verse?

____

Gary: [["The KJV uses the word "tithe" with Abraham in Genesis, but CHANGES that word to "tenth" in Hebrews 7."]]

Why are you hellbent on repeating this shameless sophistry that has become second nature to you, Gary? I wonder what edition of the KJV you are reading; but the KJV that is commonly received in the Church uses the word 'TITHES' for Abraham in Hebrews 7. Here is the verse -

::: 'But he whose descent is not counted from them received TITHES of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises' - Hebrews 7:6, KJV.

Let us just assume that your deliberately calculated denial of that fact is a mere joke - we can afford to laugh it off. But to insist on a serious tone and maintain that casuistry actually makes me wonder if you're a total stranger to simple truth.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["All other versions of the Bible I have checked use the word tenth with Abraham even in Genesis."]]

No worries at all. Just check Hebrews 7:6 on a whole lot of other Bible versions and see what word was used in reference to Abraham -

(Amplified, Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(ESV - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(NKJV - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(ASV - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'taken TITHES of Abraham'

(Young's Literal Tran., Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(HCSB, Heb. 7:6)

::: 'collected TITHES from Abraham'

(Wycliffe NT - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'took TITHES of Abraham'

(Douay Rheims Bible - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES of Abraham'

(EMTV - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(James Murdock NT - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'took TITHES from Abraham'

(Revised Version, RV - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'hath taken TITHES of Abraham'

(Webster Bible - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'received TITHES from Abraham'

(Weymouth NT - Heb. 7:6)

::: 'takes TITHES from Abraham'

There are many more. But the point is that in that verse (Heb. 7:6), the Greek word 'dekatoo' is simply 'tithe' (see Strong's Greek ref #G1183). As well in Genesis 14:20, the Hebrew (maaser, maasar, maasrah) is exactly the same word used for 'tithes' in the Levitical system (compare Gen. 14:20 and Num. 18:24 - same Hebrew word for 'tithes').

I really don't see what semantics you're dribbling round on this subject. It is entirely unnecessary that anyone should point these simple issues to you, unless you are so fond of your calcified position that you would rather choose to pay no heed whatsoever! Yet, I don't see how any of this answers to my request that you show me what verse in the Bible says that tithing is not giving. WHERE is that verse?

___

Gary: [["My point in bringing this up is that is shows the type of person you are. No matter what, you aren't going to admit that you were wrong."]]

If you show me the answer to my very simple question, you would have made your point. What is all the silly drivel from you about?

____

Gary: [["Therefore, I am done debating this with you. Now it is between you and God."]]

Perfect excuse to duck through the back door where you come to a blank wall after all your mega-noise. All the hot air you returned... how do they answer to my simple request? Am I supposed to be impressed by your shoddy drama because you want to hang it all on the mention of 'God'?

Gary, perhaps by now you should just play down on your noise instead of spamming blogs with your vast ignorance. Come back and repeat the same drivel, and then when asked to face up to your fallacies, lock yourself away with self-pity - it is the hallmark of your ilk.

Regards.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Ken,

Thank you for your kind words. My apologies where I might have missed the flow of your previous comments. I didn't try to twist your observations, however; nor was I intent on spamming this blog.

If you carefully digest my rejoinders, it would be obvious that I'm not forcing anything on anyone. That was why I was careful to highlight my disavowal of mandatory giving (however they are expressed) while maintaining that our giving should be rather voluntary.

Thus, for many Christians the tenth is a challenging point, and that is certainly not their goal - they grow beyond that point, and have no arguments against proportional giving.

____

Ken: [["My main concern is how fast and furious a few people have confronted Gary without reading or understanding what he actually stated. He's been forced to repeat himself several times. It's unfair to argue with someone in such a way. It's completely unproductive."]]

I appreciate your concerns. Perhaps you should ask yourself the simple question of whether Gary himself pays attention to what others are saying. There's no need for him to repeat himself obstinately as if there's absolutely no substance in other posters' comments. Such an attitude is unwholesome; and to very quickly degenerate to the level of writing off pastors who teach tithing as 'DISHONEST OR IGNORANT' does not show that Gary was seeking a productive dialogue.

____

Ken: [["I must assume that you simply like to argue for arguments sake. It's OK. Some people are just like that. But I see no need for me to participate."]]

No, I don't argue for arguments sake. Sometimes antitithers assume they know it all and come off arrogantly labelling other Christians as 'dishonest' or 'ignorant' - on what exactly? If nobody answers their fallacies, they would pride themselves forever on their assumed 'superiority' and overblown sanctimony on the claim that they give 'far, far, far, far, far more than' anyone else is expresses their giving.

If antitithers do not like to argue for the mere sake of it, would we have to read them repeating the same bilgewater that has become their antitithing hallmark?


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

My error. The KJV uses the word tithes with Abraham one time after God defined His tithe.

However, the word tithe, when referring to Abraham, means one tenth, or a tenth part. When God defined His tithe in Leviticus, God changed the definition.

I will converse further with you if you can show me one verse where the scriptures say that Christians must tithe, should tithe, ought to tithe, can tithe, or is expected to tithe. Show me one verse that says tithing IS giving.

You are a joke and God will deal with you. I am done.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary,

Please show your readers how God 'changed' the definition of the word 'tithes' between Abraham and the Levitical system. You have carried on that sophistry for eons and never once realised how untenable your assertion is. Whether 'tithes' were used only once or one hundred times is irrelevant - the fact is that the Bible actually uses that word in reference to Abraham in the same sense as it was used for the tithes of the Israelites.

I have taken the time to show again and again that the word used for 'tithes' in the Hebrew is the same in both Genesis 14 and Numbers 18 - absolutely no difference in definition. For you to keep repeating your fallacy and dribbling round with silly semantics shows how desperate you can be with your legalism.

Also, I have shown you several times that tithing is an expression of giving. I used very simple examples to show this earlier: [Abraham 'GAVE' tithes (Gen. 14:20)] and [Abraham 'GAVE' a tenth part of all (Heb. 7:2)]. Where did you find in Scripture that tithing is not giving? If you actually desire a fruitful dialogue, please show me just one verse in the Bible that says tithing is not giving. Why is that proving forever difficult for you, Gary?

Nobody has to be tied down to the silly word games that antitithers play. The arrogance you often display is not helping to bear out any fine point for your drama; and God dealt with me in opening my eyes to your desperate fallacies long before I engaged you on this blog.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Gwaine,

You apparently just want to argue. You have NOT given even ONE scripture that says tithing is giving.

I have given examples to show that tithing was a payment under the Levitical priesthood just as you have given examples to show that tithing was giving outside of the Levitical priesthood. Therefore, we have proven my point that The Lord's Tithe was a payment while Abraham's tithe was a gift.

God DEFINED His tithe as follows:

Leviticus 27:30-33 (KJV)

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

33He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

God's definition is detailed and does not include anything other than what is says. The crops could be redeemed, but the animals could not. Different rules for crops and animals. Every tenth animal whether it be good or bad. Specific. THERE IS NO GENERAL PRINCIPLE HERE THAT GOD WANTS A TENTH OF ANYONE'S INCOME. THE CROPS AND ANIMALS ARE ASSETS THAT CAME FROM GOD'S HAND, NOT INCOME FROM MAN'S LABOR. MUST I KEEP SAYING THIS?

I've said all this before, but you keep asking for the same info. I don't have the time to go through this the way I did in order to show you how to compute simple percentages.

People reading this blog can see your inability to comprehend what has already been said time and time again.

You keep asking for the same information, and then when I give it to you, you complain that I am repeating what I have already given. SO DON'T KEEP ASKING FOR IT.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["You apparently just want to argue. You have NOT given even ONE scripture that says tithing is giving."]]

This must be the densest statement I ever read from you on this blog! Did you have a towel over your eyes when I quoted both Genesis 14:20 and Hebrews 7:6 as examples that Abraham 'GAVE' tithes? What is the difference between 'giving' and 'tithing' in that example? And if you do have any verse in Scripture saying that tithing is NOT giving, please simply give that verse and stop boring us with your tired old lullaby.

___

Gary: [["I have given examples to show that tithing was a payment under the Levitical priesthood just as you have given examples to show that tithing was giving outside of the Levitical priesthood."]]

Okay, so you can acknowledge that "tithing was giving" afterall, yes? If you can indeed acknowledge that fact, why have you been trumpeting your superfluous fallacy that tithing was not giving?

The problem with folks like you is that you actually don't have a consistency at all in poppycock arguments and just take the slightest opportunity to bore everyone with your cacophony. You are the same person who argued in the past that -

(1) [["All tithing before the law and after the law is free-will giving and was NEVER commanded by God"]] - 12 months ago.

. . . then you came back later on to assert the direct opposite:

(2) [["In the Bible, tithing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving"]] - 6 months ago.

The tomfoolery in your arguments should already be obvious to any reader. How else is anyone with a sane mind to understand your holding two directly contrary assertions? One, 'all tithing' before and after the Law is 'free-will giving'; and then second, tithing has 'absolutely nothing' to do with 'giving' - are you suffering from a rare neologism not found in any medical encyclopedias?

There was a reason I asked you that simple and direct question: to show me any verse in the Bible that says that tithing is NOT giving. A lot of words are related to tithing (such as 'receiving, taking, paid, GIVE', etc); but nowhere do we read that tithing is NOT giving. And for you to now come back to acknowledge the fact that 'tithing' is 'giving' makes me wonder why you have been littering the blog with your inconsistencies.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Therefore, we have proven my point that The Lord's Tithe was a payment while Abraham's tithe was a gift."]]

The tithes under the Levitical system were meant to be a "gift" as an expression of Israel's worship to God. That was what God Himself meant when He declared that Israel was to offer their tithes as a "heave offering" to Him (Num. 18:24, KJV - "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD"). The term 'heave offering' in Hebrew is 'terumah', and it is not defined as a 'payment' or 'tax'; rather, 'terumah' is defined as a "gift" - please see the Easton's Bible Dictionary and the Brown-Driver Briggs' Hebrew Definition on 'terumah'.

It is entirely unnecesary that I should point this out yet again to you, since we have dealt with it about 2 weeks ago! To repeat this same sophistry to call the tithes in Israel a 'payment' while denying it was a "gift" makes me wonder why you're so desperate to keep up your propaganda! Please consult those dictionaries and see things for yourself - unless you're a total stranger to simple truth!

____

Gary: [["THERE IS NO GENERAL PRINCIPLE HERE THAT GOD WANTS A TENTH OF ANYONE'S INCOME. THE CROPS AND ANIMALS ARE ASSETS THAT CAME FROM GOD'S HAND, NOT INCOME FROM MAN'S LABOR. MUST I KEEP SAYING THIS?"]]

There is no reason to scream your propaganda and ignorance abroad. My question was simple: please show me where the Bible says that 'tithing' is not 'giving'. How does your screaming in upper case answer that question, Gary?

You are the same chap who said about 12 months ago that (emphasis mine) -

(1) [["ALL TITHING 'before the law and after the law' is FREE-WILL GIVING and was NEVER commanded by God."]];

and...

(2) [["TITHING before or after the law was not commanded by God and therefore is FREE-WILL GIVING"]]

What then is the sin in a Christian who chooses to express his 'free-will giving' by the same thing you have asserted about "TITHING"?? You have claimed that 'all tithing' before and AFTER THE LAW is "free-will giving", yes? And just what is the argument against any Christian who chooses that type of 'tithing' which you labelled "free-will giving"?

I have long observed the noise in the inconsistent arguments of antitithers - that is why I turned my back on their legalism! When closely examined, I have not come across one antitithing theologian who holds a consistent position in what they are against... and you're just one more statistic chalked up the wall!

Please again, Gary: where does the Bible say that tithing is not giving?


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["I've said all this before, but you keep asking for the same info. I don't have the time to go through this the way I did in order to show you how to compute simple percentages."]]

The irony eludes you that I was merely teasing you about the percentage - since you can't read to understand, that was my loss. Next time, I'll reply you straight in a non-nonsense and no-drama attitude, so you get to the serious side of things from start to finish.

I have gone through every post in on this page of this blog before engaging you directly. That was why I wondered that you were so inconsistent and running between two posts of directly opposite claims. If you only intended it all to be a joke, I would have passed on to other blogs; but your arrogance and pretentious 'know-it-all' needed to be bleached so we all see your emptiness and inconsistencies.

____

Gary: [["People reading this blog can see your inability to comprehend what has already been said time and time again."]]

Pity that all we have read again and again are you deliberately calculated propaganda and claiming two directly opposite assertions. How do your readers explain away such things? Or do you want me to highlight tons more which are littered all over your posts?

___

Gary: [["You keep asking for the same information, and then when I give it to you, you complain that I am repeating what I have already given. SO DON'T KEEP ASKING FOR IT."]]

Please don't confuse me for Ken - it was he who observed that you were in the habit of repeating yourself, and I only remarked that such a drama from you was entirely unnecessary because you had absolutely no consistency in what you argue!

Not even your penultimate reply has answered my simple question about where in the Bible we find a verse that declares that tithing is not giving. What you returned with was rather surprising to concede that tithing was giving - and we have to wonder at your acrobatics on this blog!

Just take it easy, Gary. You actually have no clues what you want to argue. But perhaps you might like to come away with one thing: if you acknowledged 12 months ago that tithing before and after the Law was free-will giving, then please understand that many Christians express their giving in precisely that manner. You can come back yet again and argue against your own inconsistency - that would only make our engagement more interesting! :))

Shalom.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

When I said tithing is not giving, I was referring to the Biblical tithe, the Levitical tithe, the ONLY tithe God said was His. That tithe was NOT giving, no matter how hard you try to say it is.

I'm done and out of here. Enough is enough.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Please Gary, show us where in Scripture you read that tithing is not giving and that would be simply enough. Just arrogantly asserting the same fallacy again and again is quite comical on your part.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

To those who have been following this blog, you can see what Gwaine is doing - arguing for the sake of arguing. Trying to keep the arguing going on and on and on.

I want everyone to see that I am not arrogantly asserting the same fallacy again and again.

Matthew 23:23 (KJV) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice Jesus said, "ye pay tithe." According to Strongs Concordance with Hebrew-Greek dictionaries, the term "pay tithe" came from apodekatoo, which is defined as to tithe as a debtor or creditor. You don't give to pay your creditors, you make payments.

Hebrews 7:4 (KJV) "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils."

Notice Abraham gave the tenth. The word gave comes from didomi which means to give.

Regarding Numbers 18:24:(KJV) "But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance."

There are many REQUIRED offerings in the Old Testament. If it is REQUIRED by command, it is a payment. Consider that in the US, we have the Federal Income Tax. It is a law. We don't make a gift to the IRS for our taxes, we PAY our taxes because it is mandated by law. The Levitical tithe was commanded by God (Hebrews 7:5), it was an ordinance (Malachi 3:7), and it was a law (Matthew 23:23).

Gwaine said the tithe wasn't a law. Gwaine said the tithe wasn't paid.

I gave you the KJV of Matthew 23:23 above which refers to the law. Also, look up the word "ordinance" in your dictionary. An ordinance is a law. The words law and ordinance are interchanged between different versions of the Bible.

Gwaine's argument is with Jesus, not me. Jesus said the tithe was payed. Jesus refers to the tithe as matters of the law when he says "have omitted the weightier matters of the law."

You decide. Don't let someone like Gwaine try to confuse you. Just read the scriptures for yourself, and then make your own decision. Don't add to or subtract from the scriptures. Don't try to adjust God's Word to agree with what you have been taught.

Those who tithe today are following man's traditions, not the word of God. Those who wish to give a tenth of their income to the church should do so. If you want to call it a tithe of your income, fine. But realize that many are being taught that tithing is required which is putting Christians back under the Old Testament law instead of under grace. If you want to call giving a tenth of your income, tithing, do so with the knowledge that you might be confusing those who are trying to determine God's truth.

As a Money & Finance Minister, I believe it is my duty to use terms that will be the least confusing to those who are trying to learn the truth. Some will argue forever because they have a right to call it a tithe. Yes, they have a right to call it a tithe, but having the right to do something doesn't mean it's a good thing or the appropriate thing to do.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["To those who have been following this blog, you can see what Gwaine is doing - arguing for the sake of arguing. Trying to keep the arguing going on and on and on."]]

Why do antitithing legalists often turn a discussion to focus on personality issues rather than remain on any given subject? This blog or the topic being discussed is not about 'Gwaine' (nor about anybody for that matter); nor am i arguing endlessly, as has become the anthem that antitithers sing.

Several times you said you were quitting - why do you keep returning with your frustrations again and again with nothing new, nothing sensible, nothing cogent to add to your bleached legalism? If you only deal with issues, who would be wondering about your lame ego, Gary?

Please learn to focus on the topic rather than come back with lame excuses whining about 'Gwaine'.

____

Gary: [["Notice Jesus said, "ye pay tithe." According to Strongs Concordance with Hebrew-Greek dictionaries, the term "pay tithe" came from apodekatoo, which is defined as to tithe as a debtor or creditor. You don't give to pay your creditors, you make payments."]]

Dear Gary, your conclusion raises a very important question: who was the 'creditor' in that payment? If you make God the 'creditor', would that not make you wonder why HE defined Israel's tithes as a "GIFT" in Numbers 18:24?

Anyhow, let me once again make it simple for you to digest, if you're going alone by the KJV. The Bible says that no verse of Scripture is of any 'private interpretation' (2 Pet. 1:20) - which means we should compare scripture with scripture in order to grasp its meaning, and that is what I shall do below.

Jesus did not define tithes as a 'PAYMENT' in that verse (Matt. 23:23) for the following reasons:

1. We have to compare what Jesus said with how God defined Israel's tithes in the OT. God did not define Israel's tithes as a 'payment' owed to a creditor in Numbers 18:24. Therefore, to refer to tithes in Jesus' statement in Matt. 23:23 as 'payment' due to a creditor is to deny what God said in Numbers 18:24. In that OT verse, God Himself referred to Israel's tithes as a "heave offering" ('the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an HEAVE OFFERING unto the LORD' - Num. 18:24, KJV). I have explained that the Hebrew word for 'heave offering' is 'terumah', which is defined as a "GIFT", not a 'payment'. I asked you to consult two Bible dictionaries - did you do so? No.

2. The same Greek word ('apodekatoo') is used in Luke 11:42, and the KJV does not have 'pay tithe' there, but simply renders it as "tithe" (ie., 'ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs...' etc.). Have you asked yourself why the same KJV does not have 'PAY tithe' in Jesus' statement in this verse?

3. Yet again, the same Greek word ('apodekatoo') is also used in Luke 18:12, and this is how the KJV renders that verse - "I GIVE tithes of all that I possess". Look up that same verse in the following versions and see what they say:

Luke 18:12 >>

['I GIVE tithes'] - Amplified

['I GIVE tithes'] - ASV

['I GIVE you one tenth'] - CEV

['I GIVE tithes'] - Douay Rheims

['I GIVE tithes'] - ESV

['I GIVE you one tenth'] - GNB

['I GIVE a tenth'] - ISV

['I GIVE a tenth'] - HCSB

['GIVE a tenth'] - NIV

['I GIVE tithes'] - NKJV

['I GIVE you a tenth'] - NLT

['I GIVE tithes'] - RS

['I GIVE tithes'] - Webster

['I GIVE tithes'] - Wycliffe NT

['I GIVE tithes'] - YLT

It is true that not all English translations render it as 'give tithes' (the NASB for example says 'pay tithe'). But what is far more interesting is that the KJV renders the same Greek (apodekatoo) in Luke 18:12 as 'GIVE tithes' and not 'pay tithes' - since you seem to always favour the KJV, what have you got to say in the fact that Luke 18:12 says "GIVE tithes" and NOT 'pay tithes'?!?

Whatever anyone may decide, the question that may be helpful to ask is whether God represented Israel's tithes in the OT as a 'debt' or as a 'GIFT'. Please go to Numbers 18:24 and look up the meaning of 'heave offering' (ie., 'terumah') - how does the meaning of 'terumah' translate into "debt" or "creditor"?

To force issues the way you do and then come back complaining against 'Gwaine' is quite unethical. Please deal with the issues rather than focus on your 'ad hominem' fallacy.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Hebrews 7:4 (KJV) "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." Notice Abraham gave the tenth. The word gave comes from didomi which means to give."]]

And your point is?? I observe you cleverly ducked this one - you didn't argue to make Abraham's tithes a "payment", no? Are you not the same fellow who tried to hoodwink your readers by inferring that Abraham's tithes were a sort of "payment"? Let me quote you -

[[Gary: "Abraham was OBLIGATED to pay a special one-time tithe-tax of the spoils of war."]] - 5 months ago.

But now that it is obvious you can't maintain that fallacy, you concede indeed that "Abraham GAVE the tenth", yes? Where did you read 5 months ago in Scripture that Abraham's tithes were a "tax" that he had to "pay"?

Your inconsistency is quite a comedy, Gary. This is why I wonder how many people would take you seriously if you speak from both sides of your mouth!

___

Gary: [["Regarding Numbers 18:24:(KJV) . . .. . .

There are many REQUIRED offerings in the Old Testament. If it is REQUIRED by command, it is a payment."]]

^^ To make such a sweeping generalization like that is nothing short of a classic codswallop! Just because they were 'commanded', they automatically become 'payment'? Please don't make me laugh!

Now this -"if it is REQUIRED by command, it is a payment" - I find your argument rather desperate and childish indeed! You argue as if God's people did not cheerfully "GIVE" in the OT just because you read such giving under a "command". Let me give you just one example where Israel responded JOYFULLY and WILLINGLY to the "command" to bring their offerings --

:::"The children of Israel brought a WILLING offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them WILLING to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had COMMANDED to be made by the hand of Moses." - [Exodus 35:29, KJV]

^^^ Gary, tell me if that is your idea of "PAYMENT" simply because the Lord "COMMANDED" it?? Then what do you do with the double mention of the word "WILLING"?

What would you say about the fact that the Lord Jesus in the NT also "commanded" that Gospel ministers should be supported in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14? "... Even so hath the Lord ORDAINED that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (KJV). If you like to read verse 14 in some other versions, here is how that word 'ORDAINED' is rendered >>

-- "the Lord COMMANDED" [ESV]

-- "the Lord ORDERED" [NLT]

-- "the Lord has COMMANDED" [NIV, HCSB]

So, when you read also that the Lord COMMANDED this aspect of giving to support preachers of the Gospel, is that to be interpreted as 'payment' because of the use of the word "COMMAND" or "ORDAINED" in the NT? Does that sound like an 'opinion' or 'option' of Paul, or a "command" of the Lord Himself? Is that therefore equivalent to your sweeping generalization of a "payment" also?

Dude, please wake up and read your Bible instead of parroting tired old clichés about 'payment' which you picked up from antitithing monks! I often get bored reading your drivel on non-essentials.

____

Gary: [["Consider that in the US, we have the Federal Income Tax. It is a law. We don't make a gift to the IRS for our taxes, we PAY our taxes because it is mandated by law. The Levitical tithe was commanded by God (Hebrews 7:5), it was an ordinance (Malachi 3:7), and it was a law (Matthew 23:23)."]]

Numbers 18:24 referred to Israel's tithes as a "GIFT", from the term 'heave offering' which in Hebrew is "terumah". I have asked you to check Bible dictionaries for the meaning of that term rather than returning with this empty noise. In the NT also, the Lord "COMMANDED" that we support those who preach the Gospel - 1 Corinthians 9:13-14; and He did not refer to that kind of support as a "tax" or an IRS.

The NT makes a distinction between 'tithes' and 'tax'. The KJV expresses the tax as 'tribute', which Jesus recognized in Matt. 17:24-27. However, the KJV in Luke 18:12 expresses tithes not in the sense of a "payment" (rather "GIVE tithes"), but in the sense that Israel's tithes were a "GIFT" to God even though He gave them clear stipulations as to its observance (Numbers 18:24).

As regards the 'tax', Christians are also asked to "pay" (Rom. 13:6) - the term for "pay" is "TELEO", which is NOT used in Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 or Luke 18:12. The basic understanding of Israel's tithes is not based on arguments about Greek terms, but a careful reading of what God defined it to be in Numbers 18:24 - there's no denying the fact that it was a "GIFT", from the meaning of the Hebrew term 'terumah' which appears as 'heave offering' in the KJV. Only a queer sort of arrogant desperation will make you continue to ignore this fact in Numbers 18!


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Gwaine said the tithe wasn't a law. Gwaine said the tithe wasn't paid."]]

Please don't misquote me out of your desperation, for slander only makes you a fool (Prov. 10:18). I was clear when I pointed out that tithes were "A COMMANDMENT in the Law" (see Hebrews 7:5, KJV and ESV) - in just the same way as "judgment, mercy, and faith" are matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23. Your problem is to stretch things out of scope in your desperation to maintain your legalism.

____

Gary: [["I gave you the KJV of Matthew 23:23 above which refers to the law. Also, look up the word "ordinance" in your dictionary. An ordinance is a law. The words law and ordinance are interchanged between different versions of the Bible."]]

This is really dense! We have been through that page before, I left you simple questions which up until now you have NOT addressed! I discussed the word "ordinance", pointed out that the Greek 'teleo' for "pay" does not appear in Matthew 23:23; asked also that you check the meaning of "terumah" in Numbers 18:24 - NONE of which you obliged! And you have the nerve to return this tomfoolery like it is breaking news? What is wrong with you? If you have nothing of substance to add to your previous hogwash, why force yourself to make more noise to further litter this blog?

___

Gary: [["Gwaine's argument is with Jesus, not me. Jesus said the tithe was payed. Jesus refers to the tithe as matters of the law when he says "have omitted the weightier matters of the law.""]]

My arguments are not with the Lord Jesus, so kindly throw your super-zealous self-righteousness in the bin! The one sensible thing you ought to do is go check those dictionaries I proffered in discussing Numbers 18:24 and come back to argue they did not point out what I have mentioned several times! You remain on one spot with your legalism soliciting public sympathy for your pity-party, but you won't consult the sources and check things out for yourself!

___

Gary: [["You decide. Don't let someone like Gwaine try to confuse you. Just read the scriptures for yourself, and then make your own decision. Don't add to or subtract from the scriptures. Don't try to adjust God's Word to agree with what you have been taught."]]

This is just empty noise. How many people would read the other versions and other verses I already outlined there and come join your self-righteous party? You imagine that others can't read and see things for themselves, no? No wonder you have an ego the size of jupiter claiming you give "far, far, far, far, far above" what you argue, when we can all see the blackholes in your false claims!


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

You have taken Luke 18:12 totally out of context. Read the whole story. They were bragging how they went beyond the law. Your point has no merit using Luke 18:12.


Gwaine 6 years ago

The point in quoting Luke 18:12 is that the same Greek word was used - 'apodekatoo' - and it does NOT say "pay tithes" in the KJV, but rather "GIVE tithes". Please read with your thinking cap rather than come back dribbling round! You like slaving yourself on the KJV, yes? Good - then please pay close attention to the fact that the same Greek word appears in that verse and the same KJV renders it "GIVE tithes" - what is your problem, or am I the author of the KJV?!?


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Those who tithe today are following man's traditions, not the word of God. Those who wish to give a tenth of their income to the church should do so. If you want to call it a tithe of your income, fine."]]

The hypocrisy in that statement is amazing! You argue against people giving "a tithe" of their income - but then take the direct opposite quip in the next breath to say it is "fine"! Please read Romans 14:22 - 'Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves'. Those who tithe today are NOT following your legalism - 'a tenth' is the same as a 'tithe' or '10%' or '1/10'. Only legalism will tie it down to 'farm produce', but will not cough when Paul quoted Deut. 25:4 to teach NT doctrine!

I think it is obvious now you're getting tired of your literalism - it was only a matter of time before you confused yourself!

___

Gary: [["But realize that many are being taught that tithing is required which is putting Christians back under the Old Testament law instead of under grace. If you want to call giving a tenth of your income, tithing, do so with the knowledge that you might be confusing those who are trying to determine God's truth."]]

Thank you for the advice - NOT! I wonder why antitithers did not realse they were causing a huge confusion both to themselves and to others by arguing their legalism for eons! The real problem was not 'tithe' or 'tenth' or '10%' or '1/10' - rather, it was the issue of making these things 'mandatory'. If antitithers had realised this and focused on the problem, we would not be reading all this poppycock from you running between two directly opposite opinions!

Christians can indeed refer to their systematic giving in proportion of their income - if they start at 1/10 or 10% or a tenth of their income, what is the sin in calling such things a tithe? Just what is the heinous sin in that, such that antitithers would have to dribble on this matter in their boring sanctimony?

___

Gary: [["As a Money & Finance Minister, I believe it is my duty to use terms that will be the least confusing to those who are trying to learn the truth. Some will argue forever because they have a right to call it a tithe. Yes, they have a right to call it a tithe, but having the right to do something doesn't mean it's a good thing or the appropriate thing to do."]]

You also have a right to use your position as a 'minister' to confuse both yourself and others who can be easily bought - especially where you are foisting deliberately calculated fallacies so obstinately that your ego will not allow you calmly check out issues for yourself! Christians can give a tithe (call it a tenth, or 1/10 or 10%) - there's no anathema in that at all!

Most certainly, you can choose as well to refer to your own giving as "payment"... who will arrest you on that? The one thing I detest is the arrogance of antitithers who think they know it all, spend all their lives telling others how not to give, and yet they don't realise that their antitithing legalism is the perfect excuse for the appalling state of many people who shy from giving and yet blow their trumpet of 'grace giving' that never rises above a tenth!

Face the real issues, rather than build the rest of your life on antitithing legalism. Stop calling sin upon people when God never sent you to do so.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Yes, Gwaine, I see that the same word is translated as PAYED and GIVE. However, I trust the KJV translation has picked the correct meaning in each of the two verses.

You must think you are smarter than those who translated for the KJV.

Many words have many meanings. Again, I trust the KJV has picked the correct meaning.

You said, "You argue against people giving "a tithe" of their income - but then take the direct opposite quip in the next breath to say it is "fine"!"

You are very good at taking my comments out of context to give my comments a new meaning.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary, I didn't come here to try and be 'smart'. The one reason I took you up directly was your arrogance! I've come across jokers from the antitithing camp who are not as polarised as you tend to be - but when you try to overwhelm other discussants with your cacophony, then maybe it's just about time someone told you to zip up your drama.

Gary: [["Yes, Gwaine, I see that the same word is translated as PAYED and GIVE. However, I trust the KJV translation has picked the correct meaning in each of the two verses."]]

What games are you trying to play here? You argued long and hard to make tithing a matter only of "PAYMENT", and the fact it could not be so interpreted was what I tried to call your attention to. For you to be confusing yourself with dry arguments and refusing to see simple issues should make us wonder at your loss!

___

Gary: [["You must think you are smarter than those who translated for the KJV."]]

Did I infer that directly or indirectly? WHERE? If you haven't taken time to do your homework on this subject, what has that got to do with complaining about whether or not you think I'm smart?

___

Gary: [["Many words have many meanings. Again, I trust the KJV has picked the correct meaning."]]

That was one of the points I tried to make you see - thank God you now concede to it. But that does not go so far as your legalistic insistence on just only one possible interpretation of any particular word or terminology.

___

Gary: [["You said, "You argue against people giving "a tithe" of their income - but then take the direct opposite quip in the next breath to say it is "fine"! You are very good at taking my comments out of context to give my comments a new meaning.]]

I did not take your comments out of context - and if I did, it is up to you to set me straight whereever that has happened! That is why I often quoted you directly without editing anything in the various quotes I harvested from your arguments. You cannot be so polarised, muddying issues as you so please, and then assume that you're the only one who knows it all and nothing anyone else says would have mattered! That type of attitude does not score anything to enhance your position.

Learn to see what others are saying; and try not to carry on your mistake of assuming your overblown self-importance over other Christians. I have used many of the same poppycock antitithing arguments in my days as an antitither, that is why I can quite easily handle your rants.

Take it easy, bro. Whatever you give, allow others the liberty to do as they choose without your trying to overwhelm them - whether they call it a 'tithe', or a 'tenth', or '10%', or '1/10'. That is not the goal of Christian giving - the reality that we are actually giving is what matters at the end of the day, so long as we eschew any idea of coercive giving.

Cheers.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Over a year ago I said Abraham's tithe was given. As early as ten months ago I clarified that Abraham GAVE a tithe while the Levitical tithe was a payment.

You said, "the reality that we are actually giving is what matters at the end of the day, so long as we eschew any idea of coercive giving." I agree. That is my real ministry - giving. It's all about giving, freely.


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary: [["Over a year ago I said Abraham's tithe was given. As early as ten months ago I clarified that Abraham GAVE a tithe while the Levitical tithe was a payment."]]

Please bro, don't make excuses about your arguments on these issues - they were quite misleading and only tended to confuse your readers. But if you're now trying so hard to come to terms with them, fair enough.

Arguing to deny that the Levitical tithes were a "gift" only complicates issues, both for yourself and your uninformed readers. While you only stressed the "payment" to the point of asserting repeatedly that Israel's tithes were not a "GIFT", it probably didn't occur to you that you were ignoring the implications of your own arguments. It was 6 months ago that you categorically said: [[Gary: "In the Bible, tithing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving"]] - and that probably was why you had missed the point that tithing is an expression of giving, without the word games or drama around semantics.

That was why I wanted to call out your attention thereto by showing from Numbers 18:24 that it was God Himself who had presented Israel's tithes to Him as a "GIFT" - which is the meaning of the Hebrew 'terumah', appearing in the KJV as 'heave offering' in that verse. You quite well denied the fact that Israel's tithes were a "GIFT" while going on and on about "payment"... until I felt it was time to put that misconception to rest.

It is important that we take a holistic approach to God's Word and see things in their broad perspectives. To take only one view of things is the reason why many people end up confusing themselves on so many things and then join a bandwagon of unnecessary arguments.

___

Gary: [["You said, "the reality that we are actually giving is what matters at the end of the day, so long as we eschew any idea of coercive giving." I agree. That is my real ministry - giving. It's all about giving, freely."]]

No problem - tithing is an expression of giving; and whoever so desires to express their giving by the principle of a tithe, a tenth, 10% or 1/10 is very well free to do so. We should all remember that the tenth or 'tithe' is not the goal of Christian giving (in other words, that should not be the point where we stop - it is not a rigid point of measurement). People should not be coerced in this matter one way or another, regardless whatever anyone may wish to call their type of giving (1 Chron. 29:9).


bianca 6 years ago

i have been going through the discussion, the same way i went through the "is polygamy biblical?". i have found both arguments so informative. what i like most about them, is their ability to make one search the scriptures more, like what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, which is what is lacking in the Body of Christ today.


LADP 6 years ago

Hello, after doing my own "research" my view is the same as Gary's. Please don't try to convice me otherwise. But this isn't about me.

My Sister-in-law tithes 10% of their family income. Every week. Her church lays the whole "You are sinning and dammed to hell if you don't tithe" thing on them. So she tithes. THEY HAVE NO FOOD. When I tell you their pantry is bare, I am not kidding. The inside of their refrigerator is empty, spotlessly clean, with the exception of some condiments and the occassional gallon of milk. Did I mention that they have 2 children? I guess I should also mention that her 7 year old was just diagnosed with a serious medical condition brought on by poor nutrition. But still they tithe 10% because that is what their church commands. "God will provide for all your earthly needs" while her children are suffering. Now she is asking for prayers for the healing of her child's condition brought on by poor nutrition, because she tithes for God's blessing instead of providing for her children.

Before you all get on me about "sharing my abundance" with them, my husband and I have tried and they "won't accept charity - God will provide".

Gary, I have tried talking to her about your research on tithing but she truly sounds brainwashed. I could really use some help here before CPS gets called in.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

LADP,

Your story is not unique. I hear this type of story quite often.

I suggest you print out a copy of my book and leave it with her. She just might read it. The link associated with my name will take you to my website where you can download the book, free. I don't charge for it, nor will I accept any donations.

Then PRAY, and keep praying. Only God can open her mind to the truth. Pastors are only human, and most who teach tithing do so because it is what they were taught. Few have actually done any research or real study on the topic. I have been praying for a couple years now for one SDA family who just wouldn't believe me on tithing, but now at least one member of the family is beginning to question their tithing beliefs, and another told me she didn't care because she would tithe whether it is Biblical or not.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

LADP, I am sincerely sympathetic to the problem with your sister in law and I agree wholeheartedly with Gary's response.. quote .. Then PRAY, and keep praying. Only God can open her mind to the truth... end quote

However, her problem's do not stem from her determination to give to the church 10 percent of her household income. Her problem lies in how to manage her money (or the 90 percent). Over and over on the anti-tithing forums people bring up 'tragic loss of food, homes, cars, medical needs, etc.' as evidence to support the anti-tithing stance. Poor money management is the problem, NOT THE TITHE. And Gary Arnold should know this since he is in the financial ministry!

Tithing is between God and the tither. Not between the tither and the church, as it seems to be the case with your sister in law? However, it seems only plausible that even if your sister in law were to keep her tithe, she would still be in financial disarray. It is not our bank account that matters, but our relationship to money that God is concerned with. And the Bible stresses this over and over. And you are right in that tithing is not a salvation issue, as your sister in law's church seems to be teaching. Tithing is an obedience issue between God and the believer. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, not the tithe. But, that should never stop our Pastor's from teaching about the importance and benefits of the tithe.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

Debradoo,

I agree with you that IN MOST CASES the problem is poor money management of the 90%. But I do know of many cases where that is not the problem.

In most of the US, the poverty level for a single individual is at a yearly income of $10,830. That's $902.50 per month. I have a friend who has been on disability most of his life whose income is less than $800 a month. Is he supposed to give $80 a month to the church when he is already buying the cheapest food he can find and pays the cheapest rent he can find? Plus he buys his clothes at charity stores. What about one of my godsons who is married with two children, his wife is now collecting a short-time disability after having a child a few weeks ago, and he can only find part-time work which is paying him less than $500 a month. Are they supposed to give a tenth of the little amount they bring in? I have a friend who lost his job over a month ago and is now drawing unemployment of about $200 a week with no other income. Is he supposed to give $20 a week to the church? I have another godson who has a good job, but is supporting his wife, their four children, PLUS his mother-in-law who has no income. He gives as much as he feels they can afford, but was told by his pastor that he and his family cannot be members of that church because he isn't giving a full ten percent of his income.

How many stories must I tell to get the point across that not everyone has the funds to give a tenth of their income to the church and still make it?


Gwaine 6 years ago

Gary,

Are you making a law as to determine what anyone could give? Please tell me: what is WRONG with someone giving a tenth (the same as a 'tithe') from what they receive - if they choose to do so? It seems you're just too dogmatic about this issue that you have to be perturbed about someone giving $20 from $200 or such like.

I know of a few people who have huge responsibilities and receive just about that amount weekly as their income. Yet, these folks have committed themselves to giving the equivalent of a tenth, regardless their situation - and in all this, I have not heard them complain the way you do.

The problem with the kind of sob stories you guys rake up is one reason why this subject remains a touchy one. Not everyone is on 'disability', and I find it really awkward that this issue of 'disability' scenario is what features often in many antitithers' campaigns! 'Disability' is not the norm; nor should it be the status quo of all Christians in the Body of Christ! This does not mean a disrespect for those on benefits/disability allowance; but that is not what should be standard for every Christian in the Body of Christ.

Besides, there are many Christians I know outside America who do not have a system of 'disability benefits/income', nor even dream of anything near $200 a week as their income - yet most of what they give is well over 15% on average! I know this by firsthand experience because I have close ties with a few of them.

It is rather a sorry argument to read your remarks: "Is he supposed to give $80 a month...?" or "Is he supposed to give $20 a month...?" You are not the secretary to the Holy Spirit to determine what anyone is "supposed" to give. Some may not give as much as that; but many others may indeed give much more than that - if they choose to do so.

As far as we can agree, no Christian is under any legalistic obligation to give anything IF they choose to NOT GIVE at all. A Christian who has financial issues with 'a tenth' will not find such issues automatically resolved simply because they choose to give less than a tenth of what they receive! Ask anyone you personally know if their problems suddenly went away just because they started giving $2 out of $200 (or, 1% or 1/100)! When you find such a person, I will point out a few things in such a story that you never considered!

People will find every excuse to complain against tithing, but they often forget that tithing in itself is NOT the reason for their problems. This is where management and discretion come in handy; and the solution is not whining about someone giving $20 out of $200 or such like.

As Debradoo noted, tithing is between God and the tither - and if anyone determines they do not want to give anything because antitithers suppose that $20 out of $200 is "TOO MUCH", then the antitither should take up that issue with God Himself!

It is better to keep your resources to yourself rather than complaining about what you give or about what someone else is "supposed" to give. We all know that 'God loves a cheerful giver' - but where is the cheerfulness in grumbling about someone who might give $20 out of $200? If you're perturbed as much as to ask, "Is he supposed to give $20...?", then you can set up just HOW MUCH such a person is "supposed" to give! Where then is the real 'cheerfulness' in that kind of mechanical argument?

I would rather have thought that a Christian may choose within himself or herself to give as they might wish - if such have determined to give a 'tenth' (ie., $20 from $200), or MORE THAN that, or even LESS THAN that, then why would we be challenging what anyone has determined to give? I know people who give far less than 2.5% of their income regardless of the fact that they are affluent; and others I know whose giving challenge me, because they exceed a 'tenth' of what they receive. Do I have any issues to complain against these folks that I personally know? No. I would rather wish that those who gave less would go on to give far more - but that is purely personal and I cannot assume the position of questioning what someone is "supposed" to give.

The 'tithe' or 'tenth' is not the reason for your disenchantments. To complain the way you do only convinvces some of us the substance of your arguments is for Christians to give far less. Let people be encouraged to express their giving as they may wish to, even if that includes tithing.


Gary Arnold 6 years ago

I've said all along I have no problem with someone freely giving a tenth of their income to the church or to anyone or anywhere they wish. Giving is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am all for giving as much as we can possibly give. The more we give, the better.


Gwaine 6 years ago

If you have no problem with someone freely giving a tenth of their income, what then is the substance in your arguing against tithing all along?

It often amazes me that antitithers will argue hard and long against tithing, only to end up saying they have no problem with anyone who gives a tenth. A 'tithe' is simply a 'tenth' - and I don't know how many sound theologians would argue reasonably to the contrary. If antitithers have no problem with anyone giving a tenth of their income, then the argument against tithing becomes a laugh. You cannot stand to accept the very thing you struggle so hard to oppose, and all at the same time come back to tell us that you have no problem with whatever you're opposing!!

'The more we give, the better' - and at the same time, you are at odds with those who may give $20 out of $200 and such like?!? This kind of double play doesn't wash at all!

Giving is a good thing - I agree. What then is wrong with someone choosing to express their giving in the form of a 'tenth', a 'tithe' or 'proportional giving' in one form or another? There's absolutely no reason to campaign against this form of giving if we genuinely have 'no problem' with those who choose to express theirs in that manner.


LADP 6 years ago

Actually, it isn't poor money management. They all live a small 2-bedroom rental, they drive a car that is dangerously in need of repair (no car payment). Car ins is mandatory and prohibitively expensive where they live. So far they are hanging on to their home. I understand that maybe $75 a week doesn't seem like a lot to you (and maybe it's not) but I could feed a family of four on $300/month. I just hope CPS understands the church's position on tithing when they come to take the kids.


cc 6 years ago

Hello, this is sincerely NOT meant to be condescending in any way! but I just stumbled onto this website and thought...I don't see why you are both fighting over this?

Isn't the greatest commandment to 'Love God with all your heart' and the second, to 'Love others as yourself'? Don’t all the Law and all the prophets hang on these two commandments'? (mat 22:37-40)

Also the commandments in the Old testament still stand in the new testament, Jesus said '

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (mat 5:17-19)

Here is a radical though**...why don't you tithe %10 AND give?.. isn't it our joy as Christians to give to the church AND to others?

If the Church is being dishonest then they will be accountable to God, but for our part if we give, we have done the right thing.

Because of the Love of Jesus, his grace gives us the ability not only to obey the law but to surpass the law. (Do even more than the law requires..we do this out of Love for Jesus)

‘For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (mat 5:20)

Another good one to remember is that Jesus said ' I desire mercy not sacrifice'(mat9:12-13)

That’s my thoughts, hopefully you guys can work it out

x


Ian A. Paul 6 years ago

I think this is the most deceitful con job on the Lord's people I have ever read. What a self-serving twisting of the Scriptures! The Law has been fulfilled in Christ! It has no authority over the believer. You cannot be engaged to Christ and lay down with Moses. Jesus never taught his disciples to pay tithes; neither does Paul teach tithing.


spike 5 years ago

was murder,rape,adultery,robbery nailed to the cross with giving? Are these things allowable now ,also,under grace.Giving is an act of love.Love for God and love for your naighbor .According to corinthians 13 and first John;without love you are a liar and your faith is a lie. .Give according to your ability.God see's your heart as well as your wallet.He will judge accordingly.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

spike,

This blog isn't about giving, it is about tithing.

The Lord's Tithe was paid, not given. Everyone here agrees that the New Testament teaches generous giving.

ALL 613 Old Testament laws were nailed to the cross. ONLY that which is carried forward into the New Testament is for the Christian. The substance of nine of the Ten Commandments were carried forward into the New Testament.

Jesus gave us two commands. If we keep those two commandments, we have kept them all.


tguard 5 years ago

2 points here to be made:

1)The Old Testament Tithe was based on a Theocratic tax. Once the Theocracy was removed, the responsibility would fall not longer on the Church (who governed Isreal) but on the people.

2) Once Christ came and gave full revelation of God in the flesh... and paid IN FULL the debt for sin (fulfilling ALL requirements for that debt), there are no longer requirements. The requirements are fulfilled. (As a discussion - we are getting caught on the term "Tithe" which is in fact "a requirement". It is a defined amount which removes the Spirit's ability to work through the heart - which is ultimately where God is concerned. In some ways this may be semantics to the point that many using the word Tithe just mean "giving"... but unfortunately it has a much deeper meaning than this. Lets extend some Grace to one another and encourage one another in Truth.)

Now the Spirit of the Living God is in you and works through you to do His will. And just as He made some to run fast and others to run slow... some are required to give much while others not as much. But we are all required to give "as He directs" us through the Spirit within us (2 Corinthians 9:6-7). No set standard for all... just between you and God. It's now, just about where "your" heart is.

Read John MacArthurs answer on this question. He is a great resource and theologian for any question.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-tithe.htm


job 5 years ago

Abraham gave His tithes out of conviction before the law, the time there is no bible yet it's not a teaching but a pattern. He gave it by faith, as a gesture of respect to the Almighty from the earlier verse, granted it is not his what he gave but the fact he recovers them and won the battle it was assumed he owns everything and it was his right what to do with the spoil,the law institutionalized the giving of tithes by God Himself for over one thousand years, Jesus did notdirectly teach to pay our tithes like taxes to ceasar but He did say give to ceasar what is ceasar's and to God what is God's therefore he is not against it either. Heb.7 is a shift from levitcal tithes to non-levitical tithe therefore like Abraham, again God consistently wills tithing. The order of history in the Bible is very important. Conclusion:Tithing was started by Abraham by Faith and it is never stopped because the work is still in progress.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Job,

You make a BIG assumption that Abraham would have owned all the war spoils. Abraham, himself, said he wouldn't keep something that didn't belong to him.

The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram’s acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

Furthermore, under the later law God said the war spoils did NOT belong to the victor. God said that 1.1% was to be given to Him, and he said how the rest would be divided. See Numbers 31 and do the math.


papajohn316 5 years ago

I read quite a bit of this and had to stop, because there was too much frustration. Someone may have shared this, but just in case they didn't, I will share it just so my conscience is clear.

Matthew 5:17-20

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

If we love him, we will obey his commands. Not because of the law, but because it is right. Giving what you have already decided in heart to give. Not under compulsion. I am giving the Communion and Tithing message next week and my study went back to the beginning. Cain and Able - Genesis 4:2-7 and Hebrews 11:1-4.

For someone to say that Jesus did not tithe is kind of comical, because he followed the law to perfection. He was the only one able to do it. He would not have been able to be our sacrficial lamb if he did not obey all the laws.

If you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly and vice versa. God loves a cheerful giver. God searches the heart. If you give out of compulsion or obligation, your giving is not an acceptable sacrifice. It all belongs to God and he lets us keep 90%. I think this is a much better way to look at it. We are the Trustees. This is true even about our children. They are not ours. They belong to God. He entrusted us with them and we are called to be good stewards of all he has given us. We are saved by Grace through Faith. How are the churches supposed to continue spreading the good news and add to the Kingdom if we are not giving. We are the church, but it seems that if we want to be able to meet as a body to give encouragement and be encouraged and to bring others to Christ, how do you think they keep the lights on, the building warm and have running water? Plus any of the other missions that are being supported.

Sorry...off my soap box.

In His Love!

> papajohn316


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@papajohn316,

Remember, the word tithe means a tenth or tenth part.

Tithing does not go back to Cain and Abel. There is no example of Cain and Abel giving a tenth. They gave OFFERINGS.

There is no scripture to show that Jesus tithed. You are on dangerous grounds when you start making assumptions and then use those assumptions as fact.

Not all denominations teach tithing, and they bring in the offerings necessary to fund their churches.

IF God is a part of your church, He will provide the funds needed by putting it into the hearts of those attending to be generous givers.

I notice you gave absolutely NO scripture to support tithing in the New Testament.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

You have a penchant for asserting things that no intelligent person will defend anywhere! Let me quote you:

____

Gary: "ALL 613 Old Testament laws were nailed to the cross. ONLY that which is carried forward into the New Testament is for the Christian."

____

That is an assertion that immediately collapses inward upon itself and reveals very poor scholarship. First, do YOU know what are the 613 Old Testament laws?

Second if ALL 613 OT laws are nailed to the cross, why are you trying to carry forward ANY PART of what you claimed has been nailed to the cross?!?

I find it an absolute noise from you to make such uninformed assertions, Gary. It only shows that whoever is making such statements just hasn't read his Bible carefully before venturing out to teach others.

Besides, why do you keep arguing that tithing is a "PAYMENT" when it has already been pointed out to YOU that it is NOT!! The verse from Matthew 23:23 that you're arguing from is KJV, and after discussing this with you, a few questions were presented which you NEVER sought to answer!! Why do you play fast-and-loose with such inconsistencies, Gary?

The way you go about accusing others is a very poor example of a Christian spirit. You believe you alone must be correct and right, and nobody who believes in tithing is correct. Therefore you believe God is not in the churches where your ideas are not preached! Otherwise, what do you mean exactly by this quote in your comment -

______

"IF God is a part of your church, He will provide the funds needed by putting it into the hearts of those attending to be genrous givers"??!??

______

So, if by your measure it seems to you that some churches don't do as you expect, then it must by default mean that God is NOT a part of their church??

You know, you style of argument is one reason why I altogether stopped arguing against tithing and became a tither. I have noticed that anti-tithers very rarely know what they are talking about and most often demonstrate no grace, if we have to consider you accusative attitude!

Please leave others to give as they choose - even if that includes a tithe of their resources. The Bible NOWHERE forbids any believer from giving a tenth or tithe of their resources. What's so simply amazing is that when anti-tithing arguments are closely examined, the same folks who oppose tithing will come back and say that they have no problem with anyone who gives a TENTH! Double-talk does not speak well of those claiming to follow Christ. So please let others give a tithe (or TENTH or 10% - they all mean THE SAME thing) or whatever else they choose to, and end these arguments that are littered with amazingly shallow excuses!!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

All those who wish to follow man's teaching of tithing on one's income is free to do so.

IF you stick with GOD'S tithing commands, it is so very easy to see that the tithe was NEVER on money or income, but rather on GOD'S INCREASE of the crops and animals.

I stick with GOD'S Word, not man's word.

ANYONE who really cares about knowing the truth about tithing needs to research the history of tithing. It is so easy to do, and you will find that NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE taught tithing on man's income until around 1870.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church. You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites. But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, wouldn’t that be sinning by breaking God's commands?

No one here has given any scripture to show that tithing was ever taught to Christians.


Tymon 5 years ago

To say that "All those who wish to follow man's teaching of tithing on one's income is free to do so" is plain hypocrisy, I'm sorry to say. This is the same thing I noted in my earlier comment - that those who oppose tithing and then come bback to make such stataments are just simply a laugh! If tithing is EVIL and WRONG, what happens to ALL those Christians who have been giving a TITHE (a TENTH, a TENTH PART or 10%) and more of their resourcses?!? And what happens to all those pastors who have encouraged their congragations to give a tenth by choice - are they condemned to HELL because you claim that God never gave any pastor the permission to receive a tithe from anyone?

Talking about Numbers 18, what do you think Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:8-10, 13-14 when he quoted from "the Law of Moses" to teach CHRISTIAN doctrines on giving? Please tell us what you make from that passage before hooting that no one is telling you what you have conditioned yourself to hear! Not to talk of the fact that you NEVER listen to what others are saying and just continue to spread your legalistic arguments all over the place!!

Look, Gary... I'm not being uncharitable to you. I just wonder that you just don't take the time to consider how very contradictory you sound (the case of the 613 laws nailed to the cross which you didn't address at all); and yet never gracefully address the concerns of other people before accusing them left, right and center! Is that what being a Christian is about?!?

You talk so much about the Biblical tithes and conclude that if any Christian is tithing, they are disobeying God's command. Lol, dude.. take a chill and get off your high horse! WHAT SIN did God write upon the Christian who gives a TENTH of his or her resources? How does that SIN affect their salvation? If God has not called it a sin, why are you maintaining it is a sin, Gary?

The leaders in my church encourage the giving of a tithe and other ways of giving. If they therefore receive the tithes of believers for the purposes determined thereto, how are they robbing God?


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

The one thing I find you doing is constantly accusing people of anything that winds up in your thinking just because others believe in expressing their giving through tithing and you don't. That is not a healthy attitude for a Christian.

One more thing: to your quote that "God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18", my observations are these:

1. The tithes mentioned all through the Bible did not all end up with the Levites.

2. Abraham gave tithes to a man who was not a Levite nor from any of the tribes of Israel - Melchizedek.

3. Levi also gave tithes in Abraham to Melchizedek (Heb. 7:9). This should help you realise that Biblical tithes did not start and end with Judaism - unless you fail to recognize that Melchizedek was the first mentioned priest in the Bible, and he was a Gentile!!

4. While many may argue from Hebrews 7 that the tithe has ended, they fail to see two different tithes mentioned there: (a) Abraham's tithes; and (b) Levites tithes.

5. Scripture did NOT abrogate tithing when the old covenant came to an end - this is why verse 8 contrasts between those who receive tithes here, and He who recives tithe THERE - because HE lives PERPETUALLY!!

6. You may not believe in tithing, but what is the FRUIT of all your arguments? Have anti-tithing arguments produced more giving in the Body of Christ - even in the United States? Go and review Barna polls and others surveys: they tell you that year after year, Christians in the United States have decreased their giving! On average, the giving is less than 5%; and only a small number of Christians give even 10% of their income!

7. If all your arguments only produce FAR LESS giving (as affirmed in Barna and other polls), WHAT sense is there in your anti-tithing campaign and yet claiming "sacrificial" giving as MORE DIFFICULT to achieve?

God's call to the believer to give is not predicated on anti-tithing ARGUMENTS. The more we review the fruit of anti-tithing arguments, the more we see a huge drop in giving. When you stop arguing legalstically, the day will then dawn when you will see the emptiness in what you're doing - especially when you actually do not address any concerns that are presented to your attention.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

If you really understood my posts, you'd see that I am all for giving from the heart, but against pastors WHO SAY THE TITHE IS REQUIRED, OR THAT THE TITHE BELONGS TO GOD AND TO BRING GOD'S TITHE TO THEM.

You really need to open your eyes to what is going on in the church today.

Why doesn't your pastor encourage his congregation to pray and seek the Spirit in their giving instead of taking the easy way out and encourage tithing? Just shows your pastor doesn't appear to be qualified to teach true financial stewardship. It also appears your pastor doesn't trust that God will take care of His church.

You are the typical "church goer" that believes whatever they hear.


Tymon 5 years ago

Your posts do no sound like you know what giving is. Are you the only anti-tither who does not know that tithing is an expression of giving?!? What is this talk you wave every so often about being all for giving and yet attacking the giving of a tenth to the extent you're claiming that those who do so are SINING? What sort of double-talk is that?

I have not argued any kind of REQUIRED giving with you. And complaining about whether giving is to God, my question is this: when has God ever said that what we give cannot be given to him? You just seem to be going round in circles, but that's okay if it's your style.

All our giving belongs to God - that is what the OT declares (Lev. 27:30); that's what Jesus taught (Matt. 5:24); the widow demonstrated the same thing (Luke 21:1-4); and so it's the same with Christians who gave in the first century (Phil. 4:18). You surprise me by your complaining here and there on non-essentials.

If you give (or never give) and your giving is received by a human being, would you also be complaining that your giving is to man and not to God? if you claim it is to God, then why are you grumbling about other people's giving in the same manner - just because it didn't end up in your hands?!

When we give, Jesus said that our giving in benevolence to other people is actually a benevolence that is shown to Him as well! " 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' " (Matt. 25:40, KV). This is the very same principle taught in the Old Testament in Proverbs 14:31 and 19:17. Our giving in a sense is giving that is directed to God. If yours isn't, then stop complaining against others who understand what their giving represents!

__________

Your quote: "Why doesn't your pastor encourage his congregation to pray and seek the Spirit in their giving instead of taking the easy way out and encourage tithing?"

__________

How would you know that our pastors do not encourage us to pray and seek the Spirit? Do you realise that it was because of that very thing that I got convince by the Spirit to start tithing? It was the Spirit that convinced me that anti-tithers are TALKERS and not DOERS - and the evidence is there for all to see from Barna research group year after year!

What you really don't know is why you go about legalistically attacking others who tithe and claim they're sinning when no one sent you on such errands!! This is why you will not address that point - because it is obvious that you're claiming a sin upon believers that God does not claim upon them! Talk is cheap, Gary - and it shows all through your attitude.

_______

"You are the typical "church goer" that believes whatever they hear."

_______

Thanks for another accusation - it has become your hallmark! When you have no answers for genuine concerns, you turn round and wave accusations about like it's the best alternative to godly reason! I don't claim to be better than you; but I find your accusing spirit and empty talk a marvel.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Those reading this blog see what is going on. I need say no more.


Tymon 5 years ago

You're sounding like a troll. If you have answers, get up like a man and adress them! When you go about accusing people and NEVER addressing any concern, what then is your pity-party supposed to achieve?

This is what I notice you do all over the place. Make wild statements you can't defend calmly, reasonably and intelligently - instead you go on the trail of making false accusations against people you don't know, have never met, and have no clue about their lives and testimony! I thought you were more interesting than that, but alas!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

What is left for me to answer? Do you really want me to list all 613 OT laws? If you do, it is will be easy for me to copy and paste them for you.


Tymon 5 years ago

Was that what I asked you, Gary? Why are you waving that excuse as the best alternative to your penchant for accusing people and never addressing serious issues? If I wanted a list, I know where to get them, thanks.

There are concerns I raised which you have characteristically evaded. I don't expect you would be reasonable to address them, so please save all the gimmicks you've been throwing around.


Lights 5 years ago

Brothers and sisters, why do you disagree on the scriptures? God's Word has been here since the foundation of the world. It will not change. Mankind changes from young to old, from foolish to wise, from interpretation to application. Seek God and all His righteousness, an He will guide you.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Lights,

No one is disagreeing on the scriptures. We are disagreeing on the INTERPRETATION of the scriptures.

Yes, I agree that God does not change. But so many on this blog want to change His Word to fit the times as though God didn't provide for the future in His Word.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary, you have been arguing for eons like your own interpretation by default must be THE ONLY valid interpretation for all time and for all Christians. When asked a few questions around your assertions, you baulk and revert to unbecoming attitudes. That is not helpful. Learn to listen to others and understand that there are times when your ideas just don't wash, especially when you evade the concerns of other commenters.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

We are not idiots here. Are you saying that you haven't argued for eons like your own interpretation isn't the only valid interpretation?

I've seen the website you link to, and think much of it is quite good. I just disagree with your take on tithing.


Eric 5 years ago

Talk about some people that are really confused, not reading God's word right or taking it WAY out of context... Course then again that is how other religions get started. Anyhow... Point is - One guy WAY above said God never say tithe on income, LOL... You tight on Increase. What is a paycheck - INCREASE - it increases the money you didn't have from yesterday or the day before payday, come on now - gosh even my child knows this one. Most people will twist it anyway possible to get out of getting blessed by God! That is on them - as for my family - WOW - To not tithe would be the stupid move of the century. Testimony after Testimony we would write out of what God has shown us - told us - shared with us and as we did it - Those things came to pass - and it almost always dealt with Tithe, Offerings.

The bible is clear about it if you keep it in context, but most don't want to do that - only take a scripture and use it to their own advantage... There are scriptures against doing that as well and what will happen to you if you cause someone to NOT do God's word, bless ya, your going to need it.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Eric,

The tithe was on GOD'S increase, not man's increase.

Although all income can be called increase, not all increase is income.

The tithe was on the INCREASE OF THE SEED AND ANIMALS. The Israelite farmers did NOT tithe on their income from the sale of or barter exchange of their crops and animals. They tithed, per God's command, on the ASSETS, before any sale or exchange.

Since in Numbers 18 God COMMANDS His tithe be taken to the Levites, even a child can see that taking God's tithe to the church is NOT following God's Word.

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church. You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites. But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, wouldn’t that be sinning by breaking God's commands?

You have been deceived by ignorant and/or dishonest pastors.


papajohn316 5 years ago

My only other comment I wanted to share was that, Gary, you keep referring to pastors who command a tithe...The Tithe is between the giver and God. I am the treasurer and our Pastor doesn't get any of the tithe. He gets a salary and that is it. The money is to keep the church running and to support other ministries and benevolence in our community.

Again, I submit to you that Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Also, you made the comment that I didn't include scriptures to back up what I was writing, but I just assumed based on the scripture, it could be easily found. I did, however, include the scripture from Genesis regarding Cain and Abel and Hebrews and that was referring to Cain and Abel. One Old and one New.

Also in Malachi, How do we rob God? In tithes and offerings. He says to bring the whole tithe into the storehouse. He says, "Test me in this."

I will continue to give and wish I could give more. Out of a love for God. God isn't going to bless a tithe or offering if it isn't done with a sincere heart...a cheerful heart.

As far as the arguing here. Salvation doesn't come from anything we can give. We can't buy our salvation with our tithing. So rather than hurting each other with words, we should be following Paul's advice in 2 Timothy chapter 2:14, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

The last, but most important thing is that Jesus said, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

God Bless you all and remember "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@papajohn316,

Neither Cain nor Abel tithed. They gave offerings. Nothing is mentioned about a tenth for either one of them. And, again, the Biblical tithe was ONLY food from crops and animals RAISED ON THE HOLY LAND.

Giving a tenth of your income to the church is NOT paying the Biblical tithe. It is GIVING a tenth of your income.

I am all for giving. My point is, no one should be using the word "tithe" to mean giving a tenth of one's income because it INFERS the Biblical tithe, and it is NOT. It has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

If pastors would study the Bible they would see their error. There is no Biblical tithing today.

God didn't give us confusing instructions in His Word. IF God wanted us to tithe on our income, He would have given specific instructions. No one would have to ask do I tithing on my gross income or my net income? Do I tithe on gifts? Do I tithe on inheritances?

GIVING (not tithing) is between each individual and God.

Matthew 5:17-18 states Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it.

This is where some education in law is useful. What does fulfill mean? What does abolish mean?

Let me give an example. A legal contract is enforceable under the law. Let’s say you hire a contractor to build a swimming pool in your back yard. Once the contractor has completed the job, and everything in that contract has been completed, the contract has been fulfilled. The contractor’s job is to fulfill the contract, not abolish it. He fulfills it by completing the terms, bringing it to an end.

Consider:

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. In other words, until Jesus came and fulfilled the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It is my believe that the only part of the Old Testament that we are under today is that which was REPEATED in the New Testament. The substance of nine of the Ten Commandments are in the New Testament. Otherwise, how do you determine which of the 613 OT laws are valid today?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

________

Gary: "We are not idiots here. Are you saying that you haven't argued for eons like your own interpretation isn't the only valid interpretation?"

________

I didn't reply you initially because you have never demonstrated a disposition to be reasonable. I did not argue to make my interpretation the only possible one; which is why I wondered that you NEVER tried to address simple issues around you assertions. NEVER!

But that aside, if I call you up on the last reply you left just above, I bet you will once again duck and be forever evasive - so I'll just show you how empty your theologiacal acrobatics are, concerning this sham of a "REPEATED" this and that from what anti-tithers have already condemned!

______

Gary: "It is my believe that the only part of the Old Testament that we are under today is that which was REPEATED in the New Testament."

______

Your belief has nothing to do with what Scripture declares, I'm sorry to say. Your quote above is the classic sham that anti-tithers have always sung like national anthem, and that argument just doesn't stand to common sense for the following reasons:

1. The 'Old Testament' is not the same thing as 'the Law'. You are arguing "the Law" from Galatians and Hebrews, but then confuse your outlook completely by reverting to the "Old Testament". None of the apostles ever said we are not under the "Old Testament"; rather, they taught that we are not under "THE LAW" (Rom. 6:14 and Gal. 5:18). They never once condemned the Old Testament, nor did they try to argue anything as "REPEATED" into the New Testament!

2. Christians made extensive use of the Old Testament without being under the Law of Moses. The apostles taught many Christian doctrines from the OT scriptures - not because they were trying to "REPEAT" anything in a legalistic manner for Christians, but because the Old Testament is foundation for ALL Christian belief and practices. This is why 2 Tim. 3:16-17 tells us that ALL Scripture (which includes the Old Testament) is inspired by God and profitable to equip Christians unto all good works!

3. Instead of 'the Old Testament', what you probably meant was the 'old covenant'. No part of the "OLD COVENANT" is "REPEATED" for anybody in the new covenant or New Testament.

4. To condemn either the entire OT or the old covenant and then try to "REPEAT" any part of what you have already completely condemned only makes you a TRANSGRESSOR! That is precisely what Paul declares in Galatians 2:18 - "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." You quoted Galatians extensively, and yet you never saw that Paul himself argued against your idea of trying to "REPEAT" what you have already condemned!

5. You cannot therefore condemn something and then crawl back to "REPEAT" what you have already condemned - unless you want people to know you as an effective TRANSGRESSOR! None of the apostles ever taught this "REPEAT" theology that anti-tithers parade all over the place. You either condemn something entirely, or you have not condemned it at all - you choose.

6. The "REPEATED" this and that from what has been condemned is simply a theological sham that no theologian worth his onions can stand to defend!

This is one of the simplest and most profound problems that anti-tithers find as their dilemma. When you come across someone who uses this excuse of "that which was REPEATED", you know right there that you've met someone who is using a sham that none of the apostles ever taught! This is why people who play such games will condemned the 613 OT commandments, and then try to cheat themselves and their audience by the sham of "REPEATING" what they are condemning!!

The Old Testament is still valid for Christians today. This is why Paul quoted extensively from the OT to teach Christian doctrines without trying to bring anyone under "the Law". This is why he said in 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 that the Law of Moses was written for OUR SAKES!! Christians can derive principles for practical living from the Old Testament without putting themselves under "the Law" - the apostles did so, and nowhere did they ever argue against ANY part of the OT Scriptures for use in the Church. The OT Scriptures are the foundation for ALL Christian doctrine, and that is not the same thing as being under the Jewish covenant.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary, a few more of your very confused assertions to check up:

_____

1. Your quote: "The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means."

_____

My observation: Please you guys should grow up! The "generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means" are NOT "new" - these are the same things ALREADY taught in the Old Testament! Compare them below -

(a) Generosity:

Old Testament (Deut. 15:8 & 14)

New Testament (2 Cor. 9:13)

(b) Sacrificial giving:

Old Testament (1 Kings 17:10-15)

New Testament (2 Cor. 8:1-3 and Luke 21:1-4)

(c) From the Heart

Old Testament (Exodus 25:2; 35:5)

New Testament (2 Cor. 8:12)

(d) According to one's means

Old Testament (Deut. 16:17)

New Testament (2 Cor. 8:12)

When you guys shout about these elements as being taught in the NT, please show some good sense in acknowledging that these things are NOT "new" and that they are also taught in the Old Testament!

______

2. Your quote: "For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice."

______

Please be honest with yourself and tell us: WHO do you know would give 50% of their income that such would not induce a sacrifice while just $1 would rather do so? How many people do you know would give just $1 as a SACRIFICE from their INCOME - unless such an "INCOME" was something else? I'm only just asking that you be practical.

______

3. Your quote: "In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth)."

______

Sorry, Gary: we know that Genesis 14:20 is also part of the Old Testament and Abraham's tithes cannot be claimed to fall under your assertion. In both the OT and the NT, Abraham's gift to Melchizedek are called TITHES (Gen. 14:20 and Heb. 7:6) - without arguing about whether he himself must have been a farmer or not.

______

4. Your quote: "The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage."

______

My observation: There is no such thing as "equal sacrifice"; and if anything, the NT does not teach such a thing, but makes giving to be according to the ability of the giver (2 Cor. 9:7) - which is the very same principle taught in the OT (Deut. 16:17). One person's sacrificial giving is not taught as "equal sacrifice" of another, otherwise there would be no such talk of anyone giving according to their ability. Your making things up to fill the gap does not help your arguments, sorry.

______

5. Your quote: "Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent."

______

Although nobody even remotely taught the idea of "equal sacrifice" in the NT, claiming that it is much harder to achieve makes me wonder how many of your own adulators have achieved it yet! This is the problem with you guys - you make up things that nobody finds in the NT, condemn what you want to dribble in by "REPEATING", then sit back and claim your own recommendation is "harder to achieve!" Tomorrow come back and tell us some other "hard to achieve" things that you can't defend! :)


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon,

I don't have the time right now to deal with your ignorance.

Just do a google search for [ "equal sacrifice" Biblical ] and you will see how many churches and christian organizations use scripture to show just that.

And I personally know more than one family where $1 would be a sacrifice, and I know MANY families that could give 50% of their income and NOT sacrifice anything.

You seem to live in a vacuum.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon,

You misrepresent what I say just like you misrepresent what the scriptures say.

I NEVER said that sacrificial giving, or any other type of giving, was not taught in the Old Testament and that it is NEW teaching in the New Testament. You constantly misrepresent what I say. Therefore, I will no longer waste my time debating you. You do exactly what tithing-teaching pastors do. YOU MISREPRESENT THE SCRIPTURES while misrepresenting what others say. This either shows your lack of understanding, or just plain dishonesty. I am not sure which but hope it is a lack of understanding.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

You often sing your ignorance abroad, but that's okay since it's second nature for you to evade important issues in your mistaken pomp that you alone know it all! So, I can excuse you on that.

You should understand I'm not out to put you on spot. I find your legalism out of joint and that's why I thought to call your attention on them. However, if you are sure to find the so-called "equal sacrifice" taught anywhere in the New Testament, why do we have to wait forever to see it? Coming up with the excuse of 'Google' this and that does not solve your problem, so please just quit that farce!

Many sites one could find on the sham of the 'equal sacrifice' you are parading only point to the tithes, and in some instances refer to tithes as a "tax" - so where do we go from there? Besides, is it not remarkable that many of the Google results are pointing back to comments made by 'gary arnold' littering many blogs with the same sham? Sorry dude, this is why I had to call you out on that and see how you evade this one yet again. I'm not surprised you would neatly tuck it away on the excuse of not being able to deal with my 'ignorance' of your sleight of hand.

It's often amazing how you guys will hoot forever on the trash you litter all over the net on issues you can't resolve - and at the end of the day, no one is better off with your own recommendation of "harder to achieve if not impossible!" If you can't handle little things, is it then the things that are "harder to achieve" that we should be convinced you can more easily deal with?


Tymon 5 years ago

_____

Gary: "You misrepresent what I say just like you misrepresent what the scriptures say."

_____

My apologies if I misrepresented you. I do hope not; but that is why I have asked you to address simple issues so no one misunderstands you. Since you have resorted to excuses and perennial evasion gimmicks, you can't blame me for your whining after I have addressed some of your obviously indefensible assertions.

_____

Gary: "I NEVER said that sacrificial giving, or any other type of giving, was not taught in the Old Testament and that it is NEW teaching in the New Testament."

_____

I don't think I asserted you did. I only asked you to acknowledge that those elements were ALREADY taught in the OT, which is why they are not "new". Anti-tithers have always sung that tired old tune of "new covenant principles" as if nobody in the Old Testament knew about those principles in the first place! It makes all the difference to not mislead your readers by dribbling in half-truths as the basis of your lofty ideas and then coming back to allege that anyone is misrepresenting you!

_____

Gary: "You constantly misrepresent what I say. Therefore, I will no longer waste my time debating you."

_____

Lol, I can't laugh! Debate? You can't even stand very simple enquiries, and you are already chanting a "DEBATE!" Relax. I've heard anti-tithers forever singing your tune whenever they are called to defened the indefensible assertions they throw around.

_____

Gary: "You do exactly what tithing-teaching pastors do. YOU MISREPRESENT THE SCRIPTURES while misrepresenting what others say"

_____

Although your accusations are not true, I would have been happier if you could show me where I have misrepresented the Scriptures. I'm least interested in your shoddy scholarship, so that's a given - but just because I don't pander to your dribbling here and there does not equate to my misrepresenting the Scriptures. You don't realise how far from reality your arguments are, no? Do I count them all out for your again?

_____

Gary: "This either shows your lack of understanding, or just plain dishonesty. I am not sure which but hope it is a lack of understanding."

_____

In what areas in particular have I been either dishonest or misundertood you, Gary? I don't mind being falsely accused - I'm quite used to anti-tithers resorting to that as their first-aid. But if you make assertions and are asked simple questions on them, which you have NEVER calmly sought to address intelligently, does that amount to the enquirer being dishonest? Are you for real? :))


Tymon 5 years ago

My dear Gary, you simply don't have a clue about what you so passionately drive around in your legalistic arguments. I understand - having myself once vehemently opposed tithing. Now that I've left the anti-tithing legalism behind, it's not surprising to see you playing out exactly the same things I knew and still find in many who are still caught up in your drama.

Typically, many folks ('many', not all) who oppose tithing for any number of reasons only end up with messed up theologically shoddy gymnastics such as you litter here and elsewhere. For instance, they are the first to condemn ALL 613 comamandments (just as YOU did in claiming that "ALL 613 Old Testament laws were nailed to the cross") - but there again, the same folks will try to cheat by claiming that some of those nailed and condemned commandments are "REPEATED" in the NT! If you condemn something and then come back to build on that same thing, you only declare yourself a TRANSGRESSOR by fact of Galatians 2:18. You claim that is 'ignorance' on my part, and yet you never showed anything to the contrary!

When anti-tithers go about making up things from their indefensibly slipshod theologies, it often turns out that their recommendations are not better than what they condemn! Imagine all the wonder of your "harder to achieve, if not impossibe" theory - as if that has any bearing on the subject. Of course, the usual escape hatch for people who argue in your style is to sling mud and accuse others - and then dribble away with 'I will no longer waste my time debating you' - like anyone called for a debate in the first place!

Just take it easy. I wouldn't have minded at all; but for the fact that you're trying to overwhelm others with your inconsistencies, I thought to rake up the litter in your argument and show you how empty they are! Enjoy all the same.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

For those who wish to look into this deeper.........

The teaching by many theologians of equal sacrifice, or as some refer to as equality giving, comes from:

2 Corinthians 8:13-15 (KJV)

13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary, do you know what a "sacrifice" is, or is it one of those words you just throw around without meaning? 2 Corinthians 8:13-15 does not teach equal "sacrifice" - unless those who are parading that idea are bent on making up their empty theories to fill in the gaps! That passage teaches "equality" (twice mentioned in verse 14) where Paul in verse 15 was quoting from the Law of Moses in Exodus 16:18 (and Exodus 16:18 has nothing to do with either "sacrifice" or "giving").

Just because you saw "equality" in 2 Cor. 8:14 does not mean you should try to fob anyone in adding "sacrifice" just to make up the "equal sacrifice" you've been waving all around and claiming it's harder to achieve, if not impossible! That is not the only passage on equality in giving - look up Colossians 4:1 where Paul also speaks to masters to "give unto your servants that which is just and equal". Should we now add the word "sacrifice" to that and turn the sentence to 'give unto your servants that which is just and equal sacrifice'?!?

Equality in giving does not warrant your legerdemain where you take a simple word and add something to it to end up with a totally different idea that is neither here nor there. Doing so only reveals you have no clue about what sacrificial giving is! Perhaps this is the reason some have referred to it as 'tithes', others refer to it as a 'tithe-tax' system (from what you said I should Google up) - and you begin to wonder where all this fanciful toss-juggling will end up!

No wonder your so-called "equal sacrifice" always ends with "harder to achieve if not impossible" - a totally different thing from what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 8:13-15. He was not presenting what was either hard or impossible to achieve, and that's why I had to call you up on that!

I didn't mean to shake up your comfort zone, Gary; so don't take it personal. You're one of those who will argue forever that others should not add to, or change anything in the Word of God, no? But now you're caught in that very act of trying to add "sacrifice" to a passage that is not teaching any such ideas of "equal sacrifice". The New Testament does not teach this fallacy of "equal sacrifice". Just be mindful of Proverbs 30:5-6 whenever you're on to this type of prestidigitation.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Seems some on here can't distinguish between a LAW and a PRINCIPLE.

Tithing was a LAW. There is absolutely NO principle of giving in the law of tithing.

There is no giving LAW. Therefore, we take scripture to formulate principles. No one is bound to these principles as they are not commands or laws.

Those who come up with tithing principles misunderstand The Lord's Tithe. Out of all the different tithes in the Bible, God claimed ONLY ONE of them to be His Holy tithe, and that one He defined in Leviticus 27:30-33 and gave His ordinances in Numbers 18.

It is an insult to God to call a tenth of ones income The Lord's Tithe. Those who can't see that don't understand God's Word. Period.

Rationalize all you want. SERIOUS Bible Study students see the error.


Tymon 5 years ago

_____

Your quote: "Rationalize all you want. SERIOUS Bible Study students see the error."

_____

Yes they do - since the error is yours! Let's start with your fallacy: WHERE is your defence for the sham of your so-called "equal sacrifice"? More toss-joggling, are you? How many serious Bible study students will stand to defend that bilgewater?

_____

Yours: "Tithing was a LAW. There is absolutely NO principle of giving in the law of tithing."

_____

You have it all confused, I'm not surprised. If there is absolutely NO principle of giving in the law of tithing, WHAT verses in the LAW OF MOSES was Paul referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:13? If there is no principle there, WHY did Paul quote directly from the same Law of Moses and declare that it was written for OUR SAKES?

When you have no clue about what you want to argue, should it surprise anyone that you don't even know the meaning of a PRINCIPLE? This is why it's difficult for you to drop your legalism and continue to spew out your indefensible errors.

____

Yours: "Those who come up with tithing principles misunderstand The Lord's Tithe. Out of all the different tithes in the Bible, God claimed ONLY ONE of them to be His Holy tithe, and that one He defined in Leviticus 27:30-33 and gave His ordinances in Numbers 18."

____

How many different tithes in the Bible do YOU know, Gary? Let's help you: what was Abraham's tithes? Did Scripture ever refer to his tithes as given to the devil? If you can't see that Abraham's tithes are connected with the priesthood, I won't be able to help you. Come back and yap about Melchizedek being a pagan priest, and we'll see where you've been drinking your funny theologies from!

_____

Yours: "It is an insult to God to call a tenth of ones income The Lord's Tithe. Those who can't see that don't understand God's Word. Period."

_____

Where did God ever say what you're claiming? Who has ever insulted God by giving a tenth of their income if the meaning of the word tithe is simply "tenth"??

This drama of yours is typical of those who wear themselves out in the style of your legalistic arguments. Where God did not call sin on anyone for tithing, anti-tithers see it as a sin. Where He has never been insulted by anyone giving a tithe of their income, anti-tithers will claim insults on His behalf! Where God did not send you any errands on the sham of the "equal sacrifice", you will turn and twist to dribble it into 2 Cor. 8:13-15! The list goes on and on... but it is the trademark of anti-tithing legalism. I know - because i've been there... and OUT!

Where are the "serious" Bible study students who will take your toss-joggling seriously?

You see, I'm not out to thumb you. It's just the empty piffling you're waving around that I wanted to check out. You keep skidding around with more fallacies than I'd anticipated - so what's next?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

For those who truly understand the scriptures, you will find the "principle" of the Lord's Tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18) is the principle of taxation.

Tithe - paid by those who inherited the promised land.

Inheritance or Estate tax - paid from the estate or inheritance.

Tithe - ONLY on property owners.

Property tax - ONLY on property owners.

Tithe - used to run the theocracy.

Income tax - used to run the government.

Tithe - doesn't apply to the poor.

Luxury tax - doesn't apply to the poor.

The Lord's Tithe (Levitical Tithe) has NOTHING to do with giving.

Abram gave a tithe from war spoils that didn't even belong to him. Abram said so. Was Abram a liar?

The Second Tithe, or Festival Tithe, was eaten by the tither and his family.

The Third Tithe was kept within thy gates and given to the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger.

The Third Tithe would be the closest thing to giving.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

At this point, I have to be forthright with you to say that it seems you're beyond any cure. HOW MANY TIMES have I asked you what God called His tithes to Israel? You NEVER answered that question; and have rather resorted to cheating by repeating your fallacy of confusing the tithes for a tax! The tithe is NOT a tax - that is NOT what God called it, and to keep up this devious behaviour is reason why you simply are beyond reason! If the tithe was a tax, then Jesus Himself must have tithed, since He evidently paid the tax in Matthew 17:24-27. And if you did not mean to draw that connection, then WHY are you making the insinuation between the tithe and tax? Just WHY are you so desperately inclined to such devious behaviour?

I took time to go through your arguments on this page and found that you're tending towards a queer sort of hypocrisy! Not only the fact that you contradict yourself as easily as one breathes, but also you brazenly repeat your fallacies many times over!

Here are some of those inconsistencies. Very early on this page (17 months ago) you made this statement:

1. "ALL TITHING before the law and after the law is FREE-WILL GIVING and was NEVER commanded by God."

Then 11 months ago you stated:

2. "In the Bible, tithing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving."

Then 9 months ago, a completely different thing:

3. "Notice Abraham GAVE THE TENTH. The word gave comes from didomi which means to give."

Then 5 months ago, another pretentious fib from you:

4. "Over a year ago I said Abraham's tithe was given. As early as ten months ago I clarified that Abraham GAVE a tithe while the Levitical tithe was a payment."

Today, yet again you came back with the same toss-joggling:

5. "The Lord's Tithe (Levitical Tithe) has NOTHING to do with giving."

I guess you either don't see your inconsistencies back and forth all these months; or you're deliberately fobbing off the reader who is gullible enough to fall for your scam! If you are fond of such double-speak and contradictions, is it any wonder why you are NEVER consistent or intelligently defending your piffling?

But let me take up the last quoted assertion from you: "The Lord's Tithe (Levitical Tithe) has NOTHING to do with giving." If that is so, then what is the meaning of Deut. 26:12 (KJV) - "When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and HAST GIVEN IT unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled"? The Levitical tithes, you say, has NOTHING to do with giving, yet that verse certainly shows it was GIVEN to those mentioned there, no?

This latest from you makes me inclined to say you're a complete waste of space! For someone who is ever so inconsistent to the point of deliberate double-speak, this hub page can go on forever and it would have absolutely no cure for your many fallacies. If it so pleases you, continue your trade of spreading your shoddy twiddles to those who look can easily embrace your cheap talk.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Abram did NOT give a Biblical tithe, or The Lord's Tithe. I have made the distinction MANY TIMES, but you just like to take sentences OUT OF CONTEXT to try and show I am a moron.

I am done playing your games. You obviously have a problem deeper than I thought. Maybe you had a bad childhood. I just don't know what your problem is.

I hope you someday find the truth as I recently have.


Tymon 5 years ago

You have no truth but have been peddling the syrup of your incurable legalism! How many fallacies have you made on this page alone that have been challenged, and all you have done is joggle your inconsistencies and double-speak here and there as you always do?

I didn't set out to make a moron out of you; sad if that's the conclusion you've arrived at about yourself. If you can't be reasonable to consider anything other than peddling your snakeoil salesmanship, what's there to all your empty convulsions?

You can play your games all you like here or elsewhere and complain all day long about 'out of context' - your fallacies will remain what they are: fallacies! That is why you just repeat the same piffle, address nothing when queried, and then pretend you no longer understand English when simple questions are presented around your indefensible assertions! The lastest is to blame your scam on my childhood! You make me laugh! :))

When you can drop your legalism, light will shine through. Until then, keep up your trade.


Christina 5 years ago

I am a giver by nature. Not just money though. I believe in being the hands and feet of Christ. Helping take someone to Doctor, buy some groceries for someone when needed, taking clothes to shelter, helping an elderly person, etc. I am stressed out about not giving exactly 10% of my income. I am struggling (always have) financially. I give when I can. At one point I had nothing left but a few old old silver dollars. I even put them in the offering plate. I had nothing left. My heart isn't money hungry, it is giving hungry. I have overwhelming desire to give and help. Yet I have never been in a position of having "more than enough" I have always just scraped by. It hurts watching those around me being so blessed. I am happy for them, but I cant help but wonder if I am doing something unpleasing or just wrong in God's eyes? I tithed faithully for a period of time and the financial situation was the same. Now grant it, money is not the only blessing, I am blessed with family and health, I have a place to live and food to eat. I try to live a thankful life. I look around and know that my life could be a lot worse. I see 5 year olds with cancer, and homeless people and know that I am blessed. But I will not lie to God and tell him I am content. I try to be, but my heart wants more. And honestly, when I am not able to help and give in some way, I am miserable. I try and talk with God and ask what I am doing wrong, but I hear nothing but silence. Just feel pretty empty and forgotten right now. Anyone have any ideas? I am at a loss as to what to do anymore.


Erin 5 years ago

I think the important thing here is, Does it work? God implores us to PROVE it. I wonder if the anti-tithers here have ever attempted to PROVE God's faithfullness on this matter? Have you tried tithing????? Bc I believe if you have you would NOT be against it!!!!!I have PROVEN God's word by TRYING Him on it!AND IT WORKS!!!!!!!Simple as that!

When my husband and I decided to truly Prove God on this, we went from near foreclosure on our farm to now buying our THIRD property. My husband went from running a failing company ALONE to now having EIGHT employees! Being the owner of all kinds of heavy equipment costing in the 1000s and purchasing a 25,000 sq ft building and hiring TWO project managers to handle the OVERWHELMING amount of work he is now getting IN THE MIDDLE OF A RECESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I beg to differ with those who seem to think we can look to ourselves as our SOURCE somehow! I would say just SHUT UP and OBEY GOD!!!!!!!(All of this has happened in a matter of only 3 MONTHS, by the way!) PRAISE GOD! THE SOURCE OF ALL!!!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Erin,

I share your concerns and can understand a bit of where you're coming from. It's true that tithing may not make sense to many people who are opposed to it - I was in that situation and opposed tithing for a couple of years.

It was a simple question from a mature Christian that both challenged and changed me: 'What is the result of all your anti-tithing arguments?' That was the turning point in my life on this subject, and I've never looked back since I started tithing.

However, there's some other thing here that some anti-tithers may not understand. Tithers do not begin and stop at giving 10% of their resources - there are tithers I know who give on other occasions beyond that point. Quite often, the anti-tithers I've dialogued with only suppose that tithers peg all their giving at 10% and no more or less.

Bottomline is this: what is the fruit of anti-tithing arguments if statistics and other evidence from surveys show that a MAJORITY of Christians (especially in American Churches) give FAR LESS than 5% on average? It doesn't even help when anti-tithers put God LAST in their principles of giving!


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 5 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Christina .. Your own words have told you what you need to do here. You are basically saying you tried tithing and it has not worked for you. Then, you are not tithing in faith. Tithing in faith requires that we endure through the bad times and train our hearts to be grateful for what we do have. Do not allow discontent into your heart. Your honesty with God is a wonderful thing but Phil. 4:11 says it is up to us to be content. Not up to God.

Tithing in faith requires that we get past what we feel and what our situation looks like and train ourselves to believe that God will bring His Word to pass in our life. When God says to test Him, He is talking to the believer. One who will do as He says, no matter how they feel.

My suggestion to you is to repent. Ask God to forgive your doubts and unbelief. And begin again to tithe like you are tithing for the very first time. Pray, seek and study His Word and ask Him to help you with your doubts and unbelief. Tell Him, it is your desire to believe and see His Word come to pass in your life where tithing (or any other area of your life) is concerned.


Debradoo profile image

Debradoo 5 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

Erin awesome testimony!!

Tymon, wow what a wise person who spoke into your life. It takes one to know one. We are wise when we hear and know wisdom and incorporate it into our lives. Kudos.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Christina,

Giving must come from the heart no matter the percentage. If you are trying to please God, the motive is wrong. The motive has to be you just want to give.

I have heard many stories from those who have tithed for many years but are struggling with their finances. Tithing has nothing to do with whether or not you are struggling with your finances. Many atheists are rich. They don't tithe.

My largest financial blessings came to me while not tithing, but while being a generous giver, from the heart. God blesses those who believe in Him and have faith in Him. Nothing else is needed to be blessed. You can't buy blessings. If you tithe to be blessed you are treating God as a slot machine.

Abram was rich in gold and silver long before his one-time recorded event of giving a tithe. It is Abram's (Abraham's) faith that we should follow, not his one-time tithe of war spoils, keeping nothing for himself.

God looks at the heart, not the percentage. If you are a generous giver, according to how God has prospered you financially, and giving because it is in your heart to give, I believe God is pleased.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I appreciate your points, but tithing is a form of generous giving. The fact that Christians in America give less than 5% on average cannot be ignored - and evidence for this is well documented in authentic surveys and polls carried out by research groups (e.g., Barna).

Secondly, giving (even if expressed through tithing) is not about getting rich or escaping poverty. You may have been enriched while not tithing, but I kknow of many people whose financial status greatly improved after they started tithing. Many others who don't tithe but 'just want to give' are still struggling to adjust their living.

It is true that God looks at the heart - but He also looks at the percentage in a person's giving. This is why Paul makes clear that, 'He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully' (2 Cor. 9:6. KJV).

The proportion (which is also a percentage) of what we give is as important as the condition of our hearts to God. The problem with half-truths often is that many people emphasize only one part and ignore the complementary part. By this, please understand I'm not trying to put you on spot - I feet we should benefit from telling the full gist and do away with half-truths.

This is why we give because it is in our hearts to give; but we also give in order to be blessed. That is a fact taught throughout Scripture (OT and NT), and there are no half measures about that.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Debradoo,

Thanks for your kind words. I'm learning slowly, and very grateful that God sent such a mature believer to challenge and strengthen my faith in that area.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "When you can drop your legalism, light will shine through."

Let's see. God gave commands for three different tithes, each which its own definition, and each with its own purpose. In all three, the common legalistic part of the command is the tenth. If we are to drop legalism, we must drop the tenth.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

We are not under the LAW, so we need to drop legalism.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:

The crop growers were commanded to take a portion of their crops to the Levites, to support the Levites. The Levites were commanded to take a portion of the crops they received and take it to the priests. The herdsmen were commanded to take a portion of the animals to the Levites, to support the Levites. The Levites were commanded to take a portion of the animals they received to the priests.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27: The Israelites were commanded to take a portion of their crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take it for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29: The farmers were commanded to take a portion of their crops and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

In each of the above, the portion was required to be a tenth. The TENTH is the common LEGAL requirement for all three commands.

Today we give a part of our income to the church, charities, the needy, etc. IF we are going to drop legalism, we need to drop the tenth. We should be giving as the New Testament teaches, from the heart, according to our means. The "proportion" spoken of in the New Testament is not a fixed percentage, but rather more like the graduated income tax - the more you make, the HIGHER the percentage.

Those who say they aren't legalistic but keep the tenth are contradicting themselves. The "tenth" IS the common legalistic link between the different commands listed above.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Legalism in simple terms relates to an argument by the letter. It is the direct opposite of the spirit of the Word. A quick and easy reference from Wikipedia will help you -

"When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not the intent of those who wrote the law. Conversely, when one obeys the spirit of the law but not the letter, one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not adhering to the literal wording." (~see Wikipedia on 'Letter and spirit of the law').

From that it should be simple enough to observe the following -

1. I find your arguments quite tending to legalism because it is obvious you hold on to the 'LITERAL INTERPRETATION' of the words of the Law - that is why you find nothing whatsoever other than holding to strict and rigid argument by literalism of the Jewish tithes.

2. I've consistently maintained the view of the 'spirit of the Law', which is to see the principles in these matters rather than remain on literal head knowledge!

3. The NT shows us that there is a difference between 'the letter' and 'the spirit' of the Law - noting that an argument by "the letter" only kills, whereas that which highlights "the spirit" is what we should seek after (2 Cor. 3:6).


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon,

You are very confused.

The spirit of the tithing law is as follows: To provide for those who worked at the Temple as well as the priests, and to provide for the widows, orphans, stranger, and the poor.

The spirit of the law is not the tenth.

You have it backwards.

To carry the spirit of the law forward would mean to provide for the church today, as well as for the poor.

Get off the ten percent kick and open your eyes.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

4. This is why we find in the NT that the apostles also taught from the Law of Moses without seeking to bring anyone under the Law - a FACT that anti-tithers often DENY or altogether ignore, evade or pretend they can't see it whenever it is shown them. Examples have already been shown, and here again if you missed them -

(a) Paul quoted from the Law of Moses in 1 Corinthians 9:8-14 to teach Christians on giving - he did not seek to argue for 'the letter' of the Law by emphasizing the "LITERAL INTERPRETATION" of every word in the verses he was referring to in the Law. Rather, in true form to 2 Cor. 3:6, he sought 'the spirit' of the Law in what he taught without arguing for farm produce, Jewish festivals, etc.

(b). Those who emphasize 'the letter' whenever they read the Law are doing exactly what Paul highlighted in 2 Cor. 3:15 - "Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts" (ESV). As soon as the tendency to argue by the letter is dropped, light will shine through - which is what verse 16 points out.

So, my brother, let me remind you again: by pointing to the spirit of the Law, "one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not adhering to the literal wording" - and that is a valid hermeneutic principle that theologians are quite familiar with.

With regards to your argument that, "Those who say they aren't legalistic but keep the tenth are contradicting themselves", my answer is that we are not contradicting ourselves - which is why I have tried to explain the weakness in the legalistic argument you make. It may even surprise you to know that, regardless of all the counter-arguments that anti-tithers make, your favourite anti-tithing theologian also AGREES with a pastor who taught and encouraged tithing! How would you react to that contradiction?

In light of these simple matters, I urge you to consider the meaning of legalism in context of what I have explained - it's not difficult. Nobody in their sane mind would be asking any beliver to 'drop the tenth', unless such a person making that argument is quite at home with their legalism.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I'm not confused, that is why you should not be hasty in your reactions. You have not shown a basic understanding of hermeneutics, even though you have tried to impress legalism on others. This is why I have sourced the basic meaning for you from Wikipedia - did you read it?

Even if you argue away to ignore it because you cannot bear to read that simple FACT from a reknowned source, please ask - I can choose to point you to other sources, even those which theologians hug in American seminaries!

That aside, it's nothing to me that you feel I have it backwards; but I want to know what your reaction would be when you discover that some of your anti-tithing theologians are contradicting themselves when they AGREE with pastors who taught or teach tithing?? Do your anti-tithing theologians also get it backwards too?

Please let me know. :)


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Have no idea which theologians you are talking about, or which pastors you are talking about.

Again, the spirit of the law isn't a tenth. A tenth WAS the law. The spirit was the giving, not the percentage.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Have no idea which theologians you are talking about, or which pastors you are talking about.

Again, the spirit of the law isn't a tenth. A tenth WAS the law. The spirit was the giving, not the percentage.


Tymon 5 years ago

Whether or not you have an idea of what I was talking about is beside the point - I only asked what your reaction would be if you were shown that one of your favourite anti-tithing theologians also agreed with tithing for Christians as expressed by a reknowned pastor in America. If we are to 'drop the tenth', why would any anti-tithing theologian at the same time agree with anyone who preached about tithing in the first place?

A tenth is not limited to the Law, which is why you cannot argue in a legalistic manner to limit it to the Law. Other mention of tithes in Scripture are not a matter of the Law - such as Abraham's tenth to Melchizedek and Jacob's case. That something is found in the Law does not mean it originated and ended with the Law without a valid principle outside the Law.

When someone tries to force everything under the Law in a LITERAL manner, their arguments become wooden and rigid; and that is why you cannot be presenting an argument by the letter and still be talking about 'the spirit' of the Law. A tithe is simply a tenth - that is why nobody who understands the spirit of the Law would go about asserting that we 'must drop the tenth'. That kind of talk reflects a tendencious mindset.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "Whether or not you have an idea of what I was talking about is beside the point - I only asked what your reaction would be if you were shown that one of your favourite anti-tithing theologians also agreed with tithing for Christians as expressed by a reknowned pastor in America."

I would have no reaction. I couldn't care less what any theologian thinks, says, or believes. God, Himself, through His Spirit, has given me my understanding of this topic.


Tymon 5 years ago

Please don't try to be evasive. Most of your "ideas" are nothing short of recycled material from Russell Kelly so please don't hang them on God or His Spirit.

If you have no reaction, I'll leave it at that. The point is that your arguing to 'drop the tenth' makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that anti-tithing theologians at their convenience express agreement with pastors who preach tithing while yet arguing against what they agree with. If you're looking for "contradiction", you have one in such theologians.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "Please don't try to be evasive. Most of your "ideas" are nothing short of recycled material from Russell Kelly so please don't hang them on God or His Spirit."

The Spirit taught me BEFORE I ever found Dr. Kelly's material. When I found Dr. Kelly's website and book, it merely confirmed what The Spirit had already shown me.


Tymon 5 years ago

We know when someone is making excuses, Gary. So please just let up on all that. Both anti-tithers and pro-tithers are claiming they were personally taught by God, and for all that there's no reconciling their difference - do we ask why?

Anyone can claim anything, but just hanging such claims on 'the Spirit' does not in itself authenticate such a claim, sorry. :)


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Apparently you think I am a liar.

FACT: In January 2008 my pastor asked me if I would teach a series of Sunday School classes on finances. I agreed. At that time I had never studied tithing in depth, but had heard from friends that tithing was not required of Christians. However, my pastor taught that tithing was required. The first topic I decided to study was tithing. I couldn't believe what I was finding in the scriptures. I prayed and prayed and actually begged The Lord to show me the truth as I did not want to be a false teacher, and I could see that everything I was learning contradicted what I had been taught. The Lord answered my prayers. Every morning, when I woke up, The Spirit would talk to me, giving me a small part of the whole picture (regarding tithing). This happened several mornings in a row. Each time The Spirit led me to the scriptures to verify what I had been told. It was The Spirit that told me that God NEVER intended man to tithe on man's income.

I know what The Spirit taught me. I know it was The Spirit because every thing The Spirit taught me is verified in the scriptures.

You can dream all you want and deny what God has told me all you want.

May the Good Lord open your eyes to His truth.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Perhaps you misread me. My point was not to accuse you of lying, not at all. Read it again: for anyone to hang a claim on the Spirit "does not in itself authenticate such a claim".

Many anti-tithers may claim that God by His Spirit taught them to oppose tithing for Christians - but what they never consider is the FACT that some Christians have been led by the Spirit of God to start tithing, with evidence of God's blessings attending their obedience!

Is the Spirit of God contradicting issues for anyone while we are all making opposite claims to have received personal instructions from Him? One says this, and another says the exact opposite - and everyone is claiming they were taught by "the Spirit" and yet stand opposed to one another? Can you see what I'm trying to point out to you? Your claim is not more authentic over the claim of a pro-tither simply on the basis of appealing to "the Spirit".

My persuasion about these matters is that each believer should be allowed to express their commitment as they choose - if someone does not feel led to give a tenth, good on them; BUT their personal conviction is not sufficient ground to argue that others 'MUST drop the tenth!' To argue in such a legalistic manner under the claim that 'the Spirit taught me' is a violation of the leading God in other people's lives who themselves have been led to tithing by the Spirit of God!

The funny thing is that you never see beyond your own small cubicle. After arguing in a such a narrow manner, you impress yourself in the assumption that the other person does not know 'truth', not so? "May the Good Lord open your eyes to His truth" is a prayer you stand in need of more than the other person you assume does not know truth. Just take a break and open your eyes to the reality of what the Spirit of God is doing in the lives of Christians who obey Him in tithing - God's truth in their lives is bigger than any claim you're making in a public forum.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

If The Spirit leads one to give a tenth of their income, they should obey and do it.

I believe the way to tell whether it is The Spirit speaking is that whatever The Spirit says will be backed up with scripture.

IF The Spirit tells someone to "tithe," there is a problem because the scripture will not back up that message.

By using the word "tithe" to mean "give" you are using the word in a worldly way instead of a Biblical way. The world needs to be educated, and the more that use the word tithe incorrectly, the bigger I see the problem. It's so simple to give up the word tithe and just start using give.

I don't know of anyone who uses the word "tithe" when they shop and buy a tenth of an item. IF we used the word "tithe" every time we are referring to a tenth of anything, that would be different. But the word tithe comes from the Bible. No one I have ever known uses the word "tithe" for any other purpose than religion. No one I know ever heard of the word tithe before they either read it in the Bible or heard the word in church (or from someone referring to what they heard in church). Because the word has been used incorrectly in the church, many now believe the word tithe means give and they have no idea it even means a tenth. I see all the time where people are saying if you can't tithe ten percent, just tithe what you can afford to tithe.

Why continue confusing people. The word tithe should be dropped except when referring to the Biblical tithe. As a teacher, I believe it is important to make things as clear as possible.

Pastors love the confusion.


Tymon 5 years ago

Now this line in yours: "If The Spirit leads one to give a tenth of their income, they should obey and do it." Good. WHY then are you at the same time attacking that same thing?

You know, Gary, that is the hypocricy I find most obnoxious in anti-tithing arguments. Why are anti-tithers playing this ungodly face of double-talk? If you believe it is okay for someone to give a tenth, why have you been all out attacking the same thing?

If the Spirit of God uses the word 'tithe' in the testimonies of those Christians who have been obeying Him, would you now claim He was not using that word in a Biblical sense? What is wrong with you?

Gary, there are Spirit-filled Christians who testify of being led by Him to start tithing - I personally know a good number of them, apart from those who have testified on this page alone! Would you now say that the Spirit of God who urged them to tithe was not using the word in a Biblical sense?

When you stop acting like you're His personal secretary, then you will be able to appreciate that He is far more than your made-up theology. You will be able to appreciate the reality of His leading in the lives of other Christians.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

It's obvious you don't see the problem and actually have become a part of the problem.

Nothing more I can say.


Tymon 5 years ago

I'm not part of the problem if you can't acknowledge the reality of the Spirit in other people's lives. Does the Spirit also teach you to be so accusative anytime you can't have things your way? Is that how He leads you?


Grace 5 years ago

Gary - I can see you have done a lot of work in studying up on this. I will read your comments in depth when I have more time. There are many preachers who have done the same and come to the same conclusions.

I noticed you said if God directs you to tithe, then do so, which Tymon must have not seen. I also noticed you are very keen on the NT principle of generous giving....which is just about giving, period, not giving a fixed percentage so you can get a blessing. In my experience God blesses because God blesses - it has nothing to do with tithing or not.

If we are so keen on keeping the law on this, then why are we not refusing to wear certain forbidden types of clothing, or to eat shellfish, amongst a myriad of other things.


Crystal 5 years ago

Your writings are full of contradictions. The old testament IS NOT written to CHRISTIANS and Paul NEVER instructed NEW TESTAMENT believers to tithe. Tithe means tenth. We as NEW TESTAMENT believers ARE NOT required to give any CERTAIN amount of our earnings to any local church. Old testament tithes were AGRICULTURAL ONLY. And the old testament tithe WAS NOT to NECESSARILY give GOD their best. It was to feed the priests who had no allotment among the jews. Tithes were also to feed the orphans, widows and strangers within the gate. Stop twisting verses out of context to MANIPULATE God's people. Study to show yourself approved.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Grace and Crystal,

Before you blow hot air as apologists for dumb anti-tithing campaigns, please read my comments carefully.

Grace, when you said: "I noticed you said if God directs you to tithe, then do so, which Tymon must have not seen", did you ever read my comments on that? If I commented on that statement, how would you draw the conclusion that I "must not have seen" it?

That is the kind of beggarly back-patting that sucks in anti-tithers' arguments! "If God directs a believer to tithe, then do so" - and then you chaps go about arguing against the same thing you acknowledge?!? WHY can't you anti-tithers allow believers who are directed by God to tithe if you acknowledge that same thing?

And where did I argue that Christians should keep the Law? I just take it that you never read my comments before you drew such fallacious conclusions.


Tymon 5 years ago

Crystal,

Your assertion that "Old testament tithes were AGRICULTURAL ONLY" is patently FALSE! At best, you're only recycling the same tired old anti-tithing argument you borrowed from other people.

Abraham's tithes were also 'Old Testament tithes' - and they were not 'agricultural only'. He gave tithes from the spoils he took, and "spoils" in the Bible typically also included MONEY - for example, read Joshua 7:21 which shows that among the spoils were GARMENTS, SHEKELS of SILVER and GOLD! If you want to know what Abraham's tithes consisted of, READ your Bible and compare scripture with scripture instead of recycling other people's arguments!

And please don't even try to deny Abraham's tithes. When anti-tithers find that their assertions are fallacious, they turn round to deny Abraham's tithes. However, both the OT and NT affirm that he gave 'TITHES' - and what he gave to Melchizedek would have included other things besides "agricultural". Deny it all you want if you care, but these simple matters are still there in plain site!

The reason why anti-tithers exclude Abraham's tithes from the Old Testament is so they can cheat by focusing only on the Levitical tithes and then yap about "agriculture only!"

There is not a single verse ANYWHERE in the New Testament where any apostle commanded Christians NOT TO GIVE 'a tenth' or tithes. They didn't fix a specific figure; but they knew that God could direct believers to tithe. What anti-tithers try to do is set themselves up as secretaries of the Holy Spirit and argue that NO Christian should give a tenth! In reality, has it ever occured to you that these anti-tithers have not produce more giving in the Body of Christ with their anti-tithing arguments?

When anti-tithers make careless statements that you can't defend, I wonder how much of your argument you actually obey! How many of you make so much noise about "giving" and yet statistics shows that the total average giving in American churches is LESS THAN 4%.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

You continue to show me that you are, indeed, a part of the problem. Unfortunately, you don't have the mentality to see it or understand it. You don't seem to have a clue as to what you are doing.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

Please retire your penchant for focusing on personal issues - it is childish. I am not your problem; and if you want to discuss, please do so as simply or just shut up altogether.

I have not seen you address issues sensibly; and your obstinate refusal to recognize the Spirit's leading in the lives of other Christians says quite a lot about your Christianity.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Anyone who continues to use Abram as an example for Christians to follow are either being dishonest or they just plain don't understand Abram's tithe. Abram gave from spoils of war that didn't even belong to him. He even said they didn't belong to him. Abram didn't give from his income.

Anyone who will take the time to study Biblical history will find that pagan tithes were common during the days of Abram.

You, Tymon, twist what people say. You are as guilty twisting the Word and what others say the same as false teachers. You miss the whole point of those who argue against tithing. If you would open your mind to what is being said instead of being on the defensive all the time just maybe you would see the light.

God loves you anyway. I'm sure you mean well.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Anti-tither who keep recycling their own fallacies into Scripture are hypocrites. You believe in calling others "dishonest", don't you? Good.

Abraham's example was not a problem for the NT author of Hebrews. Anti-tithers who do not have a sound EXEGESIS will always have problems with Genesis 14, and that is why they make patently FALSE assertions and will never repent of their fallacies.

1. There is not a single verse where Abraham said the spoils did not belong to him. You have recycled that fallacy too many times because you do not realise you're violating the principles of Biblical exegesis. Go and ask sound theologians about the principles of HERMENEUTICS, not the shoddy noise makers you've been applauding.

2. Biblical exegesis involves comparing scripture with scripture to determine meaning. Did you compare Genesis 14 with ANY OTHER VERSE or SOURCE to maintain your assertion that Abraham "said they didn't belong to him"? Ask educated scholars and they wiill tell you that your refusal to compare scripture is a classic example of dribbling.

3. When you compare scripture with scripture, you will find indeed that Abraham tithed from what he claimed from the conquest - they belonged to him, OTHERWISE he could not have been able to take from them to give as tithes to anyone.

4. Scripture does not show us ANY INSTANCE of ANYONE giving tithes from what they did not first claim as their own. To do otherwise would be THEFT, not tithes! Please show me JUST ONE example where spoils of war do not belong to the victors - JUST ONE source or verse will do!!

5. If you cannot show even one case for your fallacy, perhaps it is time for you to stop referring to others as "dishonest" when you have not done your home work!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Having pointed out the few things above to you, let me say this: I do not mind your accusative spirit in alleging that I 'twist Scripture', blah-blah. I have always sought to focus on issues, not personality attacks (or 'ad hominem').

To write off other people simply because they are committed to tithing is a sign of desperation on your part. I could bear and have borne with you; but the more you spew out assertions that violate the basic principles of hermeneutics, to the point of castigating other believers, someone would have to call you to order on that unbecoming attitude!

I know you mean well; but pardon me if I can't keep up with fibs and untoward behaviour.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

I have shown this before, but will post it again:

Genesis 14:23 (KJV) - That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Genesis 14:23 (NIV) - that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’

Genesis 14:23 (ICB) - I promise that I will not keep anything that is yours. I will not keep even a thread or a sandal strap. That way you cannot say, ‘I made Abram rich.’

That's about as clear as it can be. Abram said he would not keep anything that is YOURS. He kept NOTHING for himself because it didn't belong to him; therefore, it he kept anything, it would have been Sodom's and therefore Sodom could say that he made Abram rich.

Now, how are you going to twist that scripture?


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

We have argued this before where I left you a simple question which you NEVER answered. Did you? Why are you recycling this fallacy?

Abraham did not say that the spoils did not belong to him. Please open your Bible and look up the difference between "goods" and "spoils". Since you are confusing between them, let me help in REMINDING you here as well -

(1) The spoils of war belong to the victor – we all know that, don’t we? There is a difference between “goods” and “spoils of war” – and what the king of Sodom proposed was the former – “goods” (verse 21).

(2) The word “goods” in that verse is ‘reku?sh‘ and is often used in Scripture to indicate substance or riches. What this means is that the king of Sodom was slyly proposing that Abraham ‘enriches’ himself through Sodom’s “goods” – which was failure on the part of the former to recognize those things as spoils (sha?la?l in Hebrew – cf. Gen. 49:27).

(3) Abraham responded that he would not give the king of Sodom any grounds for the latter to boast that he had made Abraham “rich”. In effect, there was nothing that the king of Sodom could claim back since his city was soundly defeated in the war! See Gen. 14:10-11.

(4) The key here is seeing the distinction in meaning between “goods” (reku?sh) and “spoils” (sha?la?l) – if Abraham did not recognize his claim over the spoils (which is what Hebrews 7:4 calls it), then he would be in no position at all to have taken anything from the spoils to give as tithes to the priest of the most high God! To have done so would simply be theft, not tithes!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

After reminding you of the basic premise in these things and showing that Abraham did not say at any time that the SPOILS did not belong to him, I want to request again:

1. Please show me JUST ONE VERSE or ANY SOURCE where "spoils" do not belong to the victors. Please only ONE VERSE or ONE SOURCE - that will do.

2. Please show me WHY Abraham would take what did not belong to him and give as tithes to anyone. What do you call the action of someone who takes what does not belong to him and treat it as his own in order to give tithes to others. Please don't evade this question.

3. WHERE have you compared scripture with scripture? You are violating the principles of hermeneutics (interpretation of the Bible) by taking verses in isolation without comparing them with other verses.

4. I have compared Genesis 14:20 with Deut. 20:13-14 to show that "SPOILS" always belong to the victors to whom God gives the victory - which is the meaning of Melchizedek's blessing. Please show me: WHERE did you compare any verse to show that "spoils" did not belong to the victors?

5. I also showed you that EXTERNAL SOURCES in recognised scholarship ALL affirm that "SPOILS" ALWAYS belong to the victors - Hugo Grotius' “On the Law of War and Peace” (De Jure Belli ac Pacis) is just one excellent source!

I have used the most basic principles of exegesis which sound theologians warn us never to ignore - I have shown you why your arguments are fallacious - I have pointed you to SOURCES and compared scripture with scripture (Gen. 14:20 and Deut. 20:14)...

PLEASE show me where you have ever applied ANY PRINCIPLE of exegesis to your assertions. WHY are you dribbling around and making assertions which violate Biblical hermeneutics? JUST WHY?!?

You see, when you keep trying to force your eisegesis into Scripture without carefully checking the meaning of any verse by comparing them with any other reference, it won't be long before your arguments are shown to be empty.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "The spoils of war belong to the victor – we all know that, don’t we?"

No, we do NOT know that. That MIGHT have been the usual case, but the usual case is that the victor would have brought back spoils belonging to the enemy. In Abram's case, he was recovering spoils belonging to a friend, not an enemy.

We do know that under Moses the spoils of war did NOT belong to the victor.

Genesis 14:21 (KJV) - And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

The spoils of war was made up of persons and goods.

The definition of spoil:

American Heritage Dictionary: "to take or seize by force."

Webster's Dictionary: "Goods or property seized from a victim after a conflict, especially after a military victory."

Spoils of war include persons, property, goods - whatever is seized.

Holman Bible Dictionary?: ??SPOIL Anything taken by a victorious soldier. In ancient warfare a soldier could take anything he could carry that had belonged to a foe. This plunder could be precious metals, clothes, cattle, or the vanquished people themselves.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

If spoils ALWAYS belongs to the victor, explain Numbers 31. Obviously, the spoils did not belong to the victor.

Now, show me any verse that says spoils do belong to the victor?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Interesting, and I want to laugh!! :)) I'll answer each of your denials - just be patient.

You said: "No, we do NOT know that. That MIGHT have been the usual case, but the usual case is that the victor would have brought back spoils belonging to the enemy. In Abram's case, he was recovering spoils belonging to a friend, not an enemy."

My answers:

1. First, Abraham was not "recovering spoils belonging to a FRIEND" - the king of Sodom was NOT Abraham's friend!! hahaha!!

2. Abraham was not conscripted by any of the kings in that region to "recover" SPOILS. You do not "recover" SPOILS - go and find out the meaning of SPOILS in Scripture!!

3. And YES, we KNOW that spoils always ... ALWAYS ... belong to the victors. The Bible tells us so, and scholarship outside the Bible also tell us the same thing. Deuteronomy 20:14 is an example - you will also find it in 1 Samuel 30:20, and other verses. Hugo Grotius "On the Law of War and Peace" is an excellent external source well recognized by sound theologians!

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN to deny all this?

- - - - - - -

You said: "We do know that under Moses the spoils of war did NOT belong to the victor."

My answers:

1. Sorry, sir - unless you choose to ignore or patently deny it, we know that under Moses the SPOILS ALWAYS BELONG TO THE VICTORS. That is why again and again I have pointed out Deuteronomy 20:10-14 for you. Are you even reading it at all? Do I suuspect you just want to ignore that passage so you can keep denying this FACT?!?

- - - - - - -

You said: "The spoils of war was made up of persons and goods."

My answers:

1. Please don't try to be funny. :)

I did not ask you what the spoils consisted of. Rather, my question was about whether SPOILS BELONGED TO VICTORS. Yes or No - did SPOILS belong to victors? If you argue that they do not belong to the victors, PLEASE GIVE ME ONLY ONE VERSE!! Is that too much to ask?

2. Even the sources you cited all AGREE WITH MY COMMENTS! Hahaha!! For example, "Holman Bible Dictionary?: ??SPOIL - Anything taken by A VICTORIOUS SOLDIER." Now, was Abraham a VICTORIOUS SOLDIER or not??

Hahaha, Gary... you're shooting yourself in the leg! You simply are running round in circles because you are repeatedly violating the basic principles of hermeneutics! This is why your references only make my case, and not your denials! Go back carefully to see my questions, and thank you as you do so.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

When I said Abram (not Abraham as you keep saying) was a friend of Sodom, that was meant to contrast being an enemy. You should have known that.

In Numbers 18 it makes it perfectly clear that the spoils did NOT belong to the victor.

Do you even bother to read the scriptures I reference?

You are really showing your ignorance.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

You asked a few questions before I posted my comments above; so I'll try and answer them.

You asked: "If spoils ALWAYS belongs to the victor, explain Numbers 31. Obviously, the spoils did not belong to the victor."

My answer:

1. Numbers 31 indeed shows that the spoils ("SPOILS") belonged to the victors - see verse 9 ("And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and TOOK THE SPOIL of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.") See also verses 11 and 53.

2. Your sources cited earlier show that SPOILS belong to the victors, did they not? I quote again:

"Holman Bible Dictionary?: ??SPOIL Anything taken by a VICTORIOUS SOLDIER."

Who were the "victorious soldiers" in Numbers 31? Would the "spoils" belong to them?

3. Did the "SPOILS" in 1 Samuel 30 not belong to the victor, in which case it was David? If you say no, how then would you explain verse 20 which says: "This is David's spoil"? WHY would the SPOILS belong to him such that Scripture declares it is so?

4. If the SPOILS did not belong to the victors in Numbers 31, please explain WHY God would have received a heave offering from the SPOILS - would He be receiving from them "SPOILS" which did not belong to them as VICTORS?

Anywhere you look in Scripture, you will find that SPOILS ALWAYS BELONG TO THE VICTORS - that is why Deuteronomy 20:14 affirms this fact in clear terms!

- - - - - -

You said: "Now, show me any verse that says spoils do belong to the victor?"

My answer: DEUTERONOMY 20:14.

happy now?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

You said: "When I said Abram (not Abraham as you keep saying) was a friend of Sodom, that was meant to contrast being an enemy. You should have known that."

My answers:

1. Sorry, "Abram" is THE SAME man known as "Abraham" - please see 1 Chronicles 1:27 >> "Abram; the same is Abraham."

2. Abraham was not a friend of Sodom. This is why he had no dealings with them; nor was he conscripted to do them service in any capacity. There is no eisegesis you can dribble in through the back door to make a connection between them.

3. Scripture is clear about who Abraham's friends were - Aner, Eschol and Mamre (Gen. 14:13). Please don't try to argue your ideas into Scripture. :))

- - - - - -

You said: "In Numbers 18 it makes it perfectly clear that the spoils did NOT belong to the victor.

Do you even bother to read the scriptures I reference?

You are really showing your ignorance."

My answer: I don't have any ignorance to show you; and that is why I decided to outline my answers and clearly lay out the verses to show what I'm talking about.

You first quoted Numbers 31, not chapter 18. If you see "spoils" in chapter 18, please quote the verse(s) in that 18th chapter to show that "spoils" did not belong to victors. Please show me, thank you.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "2. Your sources cited earlier show that SPOILS belong to the victors, did they not? I quote again:

"Holman Bible Dictionary?: ??SPOIL Anything taken by a VICTORIOUS SOLDIER."

You seem to think that "anything taken" = "belongs to."

No point going any further. You just don't seem to have the analytical abilities necessary for this discussion. You are constantly changing words.

Another example is I said that you are part of THE problem. You come back with you are not part of MY problem. You constantly do this. I don't think you do this on purpose, but you keep changing what is being said.

I'm done debating with you. You ARE part of THE problem, as I see it.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Please I ask: prove from the very sources you quoted that spoils taken by victors do not belong to them - SHOW IT!

You only moan and whinge, deny every thing before your very eyes and yet show absolutely NOTHING for your case! Then you complain with the trademark of "no point going any further."

When you make assertions that you can't defend, you turn round to accuse me of being part of the problem. You are beyond being funny! :)

If you can think very simply, please go find me JUST ONE SOURCE that clearly says the "SPOILS" do not belong to victors. How do you read simple statements in English and then turn round to say something else - yet you have no source or verses to show for your denials?

What have you said about all the verses and sources I showed you? Deuteronomy 20:14 - 1 Samuel 30:20 - Numbers 31:9, 11 & 53 - and Hugo Grotius' "De Jure Belli ac Pacis"? WHICH ONE of them are saying that SPOILS do not belong to victors? Which one of the Dictionaries you cited are denying this FACT? Which one source have you cited that clearly says SPOILS do not belong to VICTORS?

None. Nothing.

And then you accuse me of being part of your problem for showing you what you cannot refute? Hahaha!! Thank you - you give me far more reasons to believe you've been making empty noise! Please take some time to learn the basics of hermeneutics - it's not rocket science!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

To those following this blog:

Tymon says that everyone knows that the victor owns the spoils of war.

Numbers 31:26-30 – Study these verses and you will see how the Lord said the spoils were to be divided. Half of the spoils were to go to the men who were in the battle, and the other half was to be given to the people of Israel. Then the Lord gave instructions as to how much from each half was to be given to Him. Not ten percent (not a tithe), but rather as follows:

From the Army’s share, 0.2% goes to the Lord.

From the people of Israel’s share, 2% goes to the Levites.

Therefore, I have shown where the scriptures dictate how the spoils were to be divided under Moses.

Tymon said, “There is a difference between “goods” and “spoils of war”…”

I have shown by dictionary definitions that spoils of war INCLUDES goods, property, and persons.

I have shown that Genesis 14:23 proves that Abram, himself, said the goods (from the spoils) did not belong to him. WHY did Abram use the word goods instead of spoils? Because the King of Sodom had proposed that Abram give him the people (from the spoils) and Abram keep the goods.

FACTS:

There is only one example given in the scriptures where Abram (or Abraham) ever gave a tenth of anything to anyone.

There is no example given in the scriptures to show that Abram (or Abraham) ever gave a tenth of his income to anyone. For those who insist the spoils of war was his income, I reply that there is no example given in the scriptures to show that Abram (or Abraham) ever gave a tenth of his REGULAR income to anyone. Regular income meaning income from his normal occupation or income sources.

In the one example where Abram gave a tenth, he kept nothing for himself.

Abram was rich in gold and silver BEFORE he gave the one-time recorded tenth.

Read the whole story in Genesis 14. It isn’t about tithing. Abram’s nephew, Lot, had been kidnapped. Abram went to war to release his nephew from captivity and to free the others kidnapped and to RECOVER their property. Abram didn’t consider the spoils he recovered his. Whether by custom or law at that time the victor had a right to the spoils, Abram made it clear that he did not consider the spoils to be his.

The scriptures do not tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth. We can only speculate, or use what Biblical historians have told us – that during the days of Abram it was custom to give a tenth of the spoils to the King. That would explain giving the tenth – that it was expected. But the scriptures don’t tell us. Sticking with the scriptures only and ignoring what Biblical historians tell us, we just don’t know why Abram gave the tenth.

Using Abram as a reason to tithe today, or as an example for Christians to follow, doesn’t make any sense. A one-time tenth, on war spoils, and kept nothing for himself. No Christian follows that example.

Tymon believes as I do that tithing is not required in the New Testament. Many say there is no reason to throw out the word "tithe" today just because some pastors abuse the tithe. If there were only a few abusers, I would agree. But the majority of pastors are abusing the tithe. You can't find a Christian channel on tv where the preachers aren't abusing the tithe. It is widespread. Therefore, I believe we should use the word give and stop using the word tithe when giving to the church today, even if you are giving a tenth of your income. Using the word "tithe" today INFERS the Biblical tithe and it is not. God defined His tithe to be a tenth of crops and animsls (FOOD), and God commanded that His tithe be taken to the Levites, not to any church. No one pays the Biblical tithe today, so WHY must people insist on using the word "tithe" when they are giving a tenth of their income to the church? Satan loves it because it keep the confusion going among Church goers who haven't studied the topic in depth.

I am convinced that those who keep using the term "tithing" when giving a tenth of their income to the church to be part of the problem - the problem being the confusion between the Biblical tithe and Christian giving. As a Certified Money and Finance Minister, I see this confusion on a daily basis.

Now I am sure that Tymon will find fault with most of what I have written, but I leave it up to those following this blog to study the Word and draw your own conclusions.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

You're simply carping! I am not out to find fault with anything, but I am appalled at your hypocrisy! You keep denying what the simple facts that Scripture shows, the same thing that scholars on history shows, and the same thing that ALL NATIONS have respected - that SPOILS OF WAR BELONG TO THE VICTORS! This is the fact that we have been discussing that you're so desperate to deny hypocritically, so I'll use both Scripture and scholarly sources to show you the FACTS!

(1) Numbers 31 shows that the spoils belong to the victors, otherwise how do you explain the fact that God specifically requested that they gave from the spoils to HIM? Would God receive stuff which didn't first belong to His people? Please explain.

(2) Did you read verse 53 of that same Numbers 31? The fact the the spoils belonged to the victors is in that verse - "For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself." How does this violate or contradict what God Himself had told them in Deut. 20:14? Please explain.

(3) The fact that spoils always belong to His people can be seen from what God Himself told His people in Deuteronomy 20:14 - "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, EVEN ALL THE SPOIL THEREOF, SHALT THOU TAKE UNTO THYSELF; and THOU SHALT EAT THE SPOIL OF THINE ENEMIES, which the LORD thy God HATH GIVEN THEE."

I noticed how you so cleverly ducked and evaded this verse, even though I quoted it many times to show you that spoils always belong to the victors who take them. Now please explain: if you deny that the spoils belong to the victors by rights of conquest, what then did God mean in that verse by the statement: "which the LORD thy God HATH GIVEN THEE"?? God gives them the spoils, and yet it cannot belong to them after He had given it to them? Please explain.


Tymon 5 years ago

(4) Since God Himself clearly said that the spoils belong to the victors (because He had delievered their enemies into their hands), would you deny that Deut. 20:14 does not apply in Numbers 31? If you deny that, then please tell me - how would God receive ANYTHING from His people as heave offering when such things did not belong to them by rights of CONQUEST? Please explain that.

(5) Not only in Deut. 20:14, but the fact of spoils belonging to the victors is also shown in other passages - 1 Samuel 30:20 (David also captured all the flocks and herds, and the people drove the livestock before him, and said, "This is David's spoil."). How would the spoils belong to David if the Holy Spirit didn't inspire it to be written so, in reference to Deut. 20:14? Please explain.

(6) The fact that Abraham never said the SPOILS did not belong to him is found in the meaning of Melchizedek's blessing - "blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand" (Gen. 14:20). Compare this with Deut. 20:13-14 and you will see the meaning - "when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands ... the spoil thereof, SHALT THOU TAKE UNTO THYSELF; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God HATH GIVEN THEE." Did God deliver Abraham's enemies into his hands? And did that not imply that the spoils belonged to Him when the LORD God had given them to him? Please explain why you deny this fact.

(7) Abraham nowhere said what you are trying to put into his mouth! He recognized that ths SPOILS were his by rights of conquest according to Deut. 20:13-14; and that was why he was able to take from the spoils and give tithes to God's priest, Melchizedek. If the spoils did not first belong to him per Deut. 20:14, then it would have been wrong for him to give anything from the spoils to anyone else!

Your problem is that you're violating the principles of Biblical exegesis, and ignoring the warning in 2 Peter 1:20 that we should not give "private interpretation" to any verse of Scripture - that is, don't treat them by themselves without comparing scripture with scripture (cf. 1 Cor. 2:13). WHY have you ignored this basic principle and not compared between verses?


Tymon 5 years ago

I have tried to show you these things by comparing scripture with scripture to establish meaning - this was why I compared Gen. 14:20 with Deut. 20:13-14 to get the meaning of Melchizedek's blessing; I also compared Num. 31 with Deut. 20; and then I compared Numbers 31 with 1 Samuel 30:20; etc.

WHY do we not see you follow the same principle to establish meaning? Besides, you so categorically ignored all these other verses I showed you and stuck to giving each verse your own private interpretation in violation of 2 Peter 1:20. Can you explain WHY?

But then there's more - I want to show you that even external references are saying the same thing that I have been saying: SPOILS belong to the victors or conquerors by rights of conquest. This is a UNIVERSAL truth that nobody has ever sought to deny as you have been so desperate to deny.

Hugo Grotius' work (De Jure Belli ac Pacis) is a well known reference that scholars in established institutions recognize. On the rights of conquest, this is what he ponts out -

"“The law of nature indeed authorises our making such acquisitions in a just war, as may be deemed an equivalent for a debt, which cannot otherwise be obtained, or as may inflict a loss upon the aggressor, provided it be within the bounds of reasonable punishment. …

“Nor is it upon conjecture alone that such a right is founded, but THE DIVINE LAW GIVER HIMSELF pronounces sentence against a city that has rejected the offers of peace, and afterwards been taken by storm, that HE GIVES ALL HER SPOILS TO THE CONQUEROR."

(Compare this statement "He gives all her spoils to the conqueror" with what God Himself said in Deut. 20:14).

Hugo Grotius also noted that -

“II. But according to the law of nations, not only the person, who makes war upon just grounds; but ANY ONE WHATEVER, ENGAGED IN REGULAR AND FORMAL WAR, BEOMES ABSOLUTE PROPRIETOR OF EVERY THING WHICH HE TAKES FROM THE ENEMY: so that ALL NATIONS RESPECT HIS TITLE AND THE TITLE OF ALL, WHO DERIVE THROUGH HIM THEIR CLAIM TO SUHC POSSESSIONS. Which, as to all foreign relations, constitutes the true idea of dominion. For, as Cyrus, in Xenophon observes, when the city of an enemy is taken, everything that is taken therein becomes a lawful prize to the conquerors; and Plato, in his treatise on laws asserts the same.”

I could go on to point out scholarly reference after reference after reference (more than 153 of them) to show the same thing - that SPOILS and ALL that are taken in ANY WAR actually belong to the conquerors. ALL NATIONS respect this rights of conquest throughout all history - and this fact is not contrary to what Scripture teaches. None of your cited dictionaries deny this fact.


Tymon 5 years ago

My question was not about what spoils of war included - it was about WHETHER SPOILS ACTUALLY BELONG TO VICTORS OR NOT. This is what I have been asking, but you still keep playing your game of ignoring the question to chasing red herring! Please focus on my question and deal accordingly - show me just one reference that says that spoils do not belong to victors (not whether spoils included goods or persons or jewels or gold or silver or whatever!!). Please stop playing these childish games, please.

You said: "Therefore, I have shown where the scriptures dictate how the spoils were to be divided under Moses."

The sharing of spoils was a well known practice LONG BEFORE Moses incorporated it in the Law. David established the sharing of spoils as an ORDINANCE in Israel after he defeated the Amalekites -

1 Samuel 30:24-25 >> "For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: THEY SHALL PART ALIKE. And it was so from that day forward, that HE MADE IT A STATUTE AND AN ORDINANCE for Israel unto this day."

The total giving from spoils is Numbers 31 is more than 1% - go and read verse 51-53: "And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels. And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was SIXTEEN THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY SHEKELS. (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)"

The gold and all the jewels were not mentioned as shared among the congregation - but these also were from the same spoils. In the case of David's ordinance to israel, everything was shared between two groups - those who went down to battle and those who tarried by the stuff. We don't read in David's conquest here that a 'less than 1%' was required, even though Israel was still under the law of Moses at the time.

You obviously haven't done your homework, that is why you keep evading the real issues, dodging my questions, violating the principles of exegesis, and proving NOTHING!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon doesn't seem to know the difference between taking and owning.

No sense discussing this with someone who obviously has a closed mind and will twist the scriptures and my comments to fit their beliefs.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Accusing me of what you cannot prove is beyond a joke. :)

My question was simple - and I gave you verses after verses plus an external source, using the very basic of all exegetical principles to show my case, and comparing scripture with scripture to establish meaning.

(1) What exegetical principle did you show in your argument? NONE.

(2) Where did you compare scripture with scripture in your arguments? NONE.

(3) What external source did you use for your argument to show that spoils DID NOT belong to victors by right of conquest? NONE.

(4) Which one of your cited dictionaries denied that spoils belonged to victors? NONE.

(5) Which verse in Scripture tells you that spoils did not belong to victors? NONE.

(6) What have you said about ANY of the verses that show indeed the FACT that spoils ALWAYS belonged to the victors by right of conquest? NOTHING.

(7) What have you said about Deuteronomy 20:14; Numbers 31:53; 1 Samuel 30:20, etc? NOTHING.

(8) What have you said about the scholarly work of Hugo Grotius that I cited for you? NOTHING.

After laying these things plainly, you showed absolutely nothing for your counter argument. Then you accuse me of having a closed mind, yes? Lol.

My brother, you obviously have not done your homework. When you attempt to do so, you will discover why your accusations are baseless and a mere laugh. Enjoy. :)


Joe 5 years ago

What I am sure of i that if I don't pay my tithes, things go down financially for me, and when I pay my tithes, I am blessed. I don't care what arguments fly left, right and centre, I will continue to pay my tithes, it's a blessing to me and I know it is helping the ministry.


yinmeizhu 5 years ago

old covenant has no more effect today. we are now part of the new covenant.

Hebrew's 8:7 after the first; there is the second

Hebrew's 8:13 the 1st has become obsolete and is ready to disappear

Hebrews 9-10 describes the first being the law and the second being faith

PLAIN AND SIMPLE....


Melvin Melgar 5 years ago

I have saved my money tithing since January. I will pay tithing so that God can bless me to punish the cops who have sex with gays and I want God to send the cops to be homeless. This is my desire. It is a offense to me.


Zac 5 years ago

Ladies and Gentlemen, let this go. Listen to the Holy Spirit, He will guide you how He sees fit. This is not worth arguing over. 2 commands we are bound to...the ONLY 2 commands we are bound to...Love God, love people. That's it. That is ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL God cares about. Love God, Love people. That is the ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY law God holds us to.


aaron bontalidad 5 years ago

tithes is useless if you gave it without a sincere heart ! it will be only useful if you're tithing sincerely from your heart . because god is love and we love according of what our heart feels.


God Is Pure Love 5 years ago

I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ LDS, I wish someone would listen to this reasoning in my church. In stead folks that are out of work, disabled or elderly living on fixed incomes are encouraged (strongly) to give up 10% regardless of their situation. To not pay tithes in my church, you are looked upon as a mortal sinner. They say and maintain that it's about faith, which, to a degree I agree. But I also agree just to be a cheerful giver, and I don't believe that is only about the EVIL all mighty dollar that is referred to in the bible as the "ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it's about giving of your self and your time. I honestly believe my money is better spent helping someone who so desperately needs it and praying with them, or helping them clean or cook if they are in incapacitated. Helping them with food or clothing and the sort.

I asked my church to help me about eight times, with food, and about four different times with a utility such as water and electric. I am disabled and have Multiple Sclerosis. They are mad because I won't cancel my disability and get a job. They said they can't help someone who won't help themselves.

Also; to get into the temple, which according to our religion is the only way truly to heaven, you first have to be a FULL TITHE PAYER.

So the message I'm disappointed in is that if you are disabled, elderly and unemployed, you don't receive salvation. I'm a convert, as they are extremely family oriented. I love the folks in my church. Truly love them with all my heart. After going through what I have, it's broken my heart.

I give what I can when I can, and I give it freely. I pray daily, and raise up my children in the Glory of Jesus Christ. There isn't a moment in our lives whereby Christ isn't considered in our home. To read this forum, has helped me tremendously.

Thank you so much for your time. God love us all, Jesus loves us all, and I love all of you for having the faith, strength and guidance to publish this commentary on Tithing.


sunshine 5 years ago

I can't think of a single believer who would not support a church that operates as the church is suppose to, male elders, preachers/teachers who work outside the church for their money. each person in the body encouraged to use their gifts, women learning quietly, and just as Paul gave the offering from one church who had excess to another church in need, we give to others in need. Does one church today given to another? Does the church give to those truly in need as the previous writer touches on. We cannot just rely on the Word to guide us but also the spirit. We need to use discernment about all that God has given us stewardship over. In the times we live in there are many wolves in sheep's clothing. If we are blessed enough to have found a God fearing, obedient church then we in turn would be a cheerful giver.


Linda 5 years ago

God in the Bible says what He means and means what He says. If He says 10 percent of food, that is what he means. If Abraham gave 10 percent of spoil that is what it meant. If Jacob made a vow, does that mean that he was going to stop tithing until he got what he wanted? Was Jesus in Matthew 23:23 talking to believers about tithing money? Man changed the wording of the Bible to mean money which they had plenty of during the time the Bible was written. God didn't change it into money. Anyone who changes the wording to mean something else is not teaching according to the Word of God. They are changing the Word of God to satisfy their desires. People who don't study or who want to please man will always be tricked.


Ruth G 5 years ago

Jesus did not die on the cross and leave me owing 10%. Abraham did not have a law to pay tithes. However, it was made a commandment in the Mosaic Law, a repeating requirement to stain the conscious if left undone, hence law. There are NO commandments in the New Testament to pay tithes. We are not suppose to give out of necessity. Tithing requires 10% so is therefore out of necessity. And If you are going to go back under the Mosaic Law, then indeed all those old testatment curses that many like to quote may apply to you if you don't keep them 100% and we know that's impossible. We are not suppose to go back under that old law. We are saved by grace and faith. Paying tithes is the same as saying Jesus blood was not enough to wash away my sins and treads underfoot the blood of God. Jesus' likeness to Melchisedek was that to an eternal life NOT of a carnal commandment. (Heb 7:16)

There was no commandment given to the New testament believer to pay tithes, argument over. Just say no.


Tymon 5 years ago

Any Christian who desires to express his/her giving through tithing can absolutely do so. Many have been tithing without feeling a need to be under the old covenant. The apostles taught Christian doctrines directly from the Law of Moses and the OT prophets - and yet, that did not bring the early Christians under the old covenant. The curses of the old covenant may not apply to Christians today, but many of the blessings and promises of the Old Testament do apply (2 Cor. 1:20) - and many believers have come to embrace and prove these things for themselves.

Abel did not receive any law or commandment written on paper or stone before he gave offerings to God (Gen. 4:4); yet his gifts were 'a more excellent sacrifice' as Hebrews 11:4 says. Many Christians tithe, not because they are waiting for a commandment written on stone or in black-and-white. They do so as they are led in their hearts after seeking God in prayer. God puts His laws in our hearts and minds (Heb. 10:16), so we don't have to wait for commandments written on stone.

If you want to tithe as a Christian, you can do so without being under the Mosaic Law; and if you don't feel led to tithe, you can as well choose not to tithe instead of quarrelling with those that tithe. Each person should be convinced in his or her heart.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon said, "Any Christian who desires to express his/her giving through tithing can absolutely do so."

Please give us YOUR definition of tithing as used in the above sentence.


meltman 5 years ago

Hi all,especially Gary

I have searched for thoughts on tithing and found this blog very helpful.I have the responsibility to share on God's word concerning Tithes and offerings in our local church and found myself quit troubled after teaching Malachi 3, and various other scriptures i could find to convince myself and my family "local church" to tithe as i beleive. The reason for starting to question what i am teaching was that the more i got to know God's word concerning tithing, the more i became doubtfull of whether we are to call our giving "tithes". I have very limited knowledge on God's word thus i will not be able to argue any points. I have read this blog from top to bottom....ok....almost everything...lol and came to the following conclusion.

Gary is saying:(IF YOU READ THE BLOG FROM TOP)

Give as God leads you to give to your church,etc.

Just don't call it tithing since the biblical tithing was something totally different thus pastors should not use those scriptures to encourage giving.

The opposition is saying: How can you say tithing has fallen away, tithing is still on and we should tithe. Abraham is the father of us all and he.......etc.

If Gary is correct, we have nothing to fear since most of us who knows the tithe teaching will probably still give a tenth and now be more "listening" to the leading of the Holy Spirit concerning "giving".

If the opposition is correct: We still have nothing to fear since we beleive God demands a tenth of what He has given us. Thus calculating the 10% of our gross/net income and PAYING it to the church as God commanded, puts us in rightstanding with God.....(does it really?)

Now my dear Brothers and sisters.... i am but a simple man, trusting God to lead me as i search Him out in His word. If any highly educated person want's to convince me that both of the above parties are talking about giving....he just did not take the time to go and read the scriptures Gary has given.

A)To be able to tithe requires some tithing scriptures and an obedient brother.

B)To be a "giver" requires a strong relationship with God since God's spirit will lead you in GIVING, sometimes much more than ten percent.... since then its not percentages....then its God.

I am still a tithing man at the moment but after reading your commentry(Gary), I find myself in search of this closer relationship with the Lord where i will be able to hear His voice more clearly.

As for some frustrating comments you made....guard that rudder. Many people read this.

Thank you very much for your in depth discussions.

God bless you my brother, keep the light on..


cronjecj 5 years ago

This discussion has been going on for 2years lol. I believe Gary is right. Tithing (OT) is not the same as giving (NT) and regarding Matthew 5:17 - 7 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. The lord is speaking of 'the 10 Commandment God's law and NOT the law of Moses. We are NOT under any of the law that Moses (which included the biblical tithe crops and animals NOT money silver or gold) put up but under grace through Christ NOW which He came to fulfill 10 Commandment God's law BY loving God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbour as thy self. Today you can give free willingly whether money or cloths or food but DO NOT feel obligated to. If a church preaches the "if you don't give to this ministry you will miss your blessing" RUN from it as far as the horizon stretches AND warn the people of the apostacy going on in the church today.


Tymon 5 years ago

Previous comments have shown why tithing is one among other expressions of giving. There's no need for anyone to confuse between them by argumentative fallacies. If a Christian desires to express his/her giving through voluntary tithing, what anathema is in that?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

I, once again, ask that you give the definition of tithing as it applies to your comment above. Your definition can make all the difference in letting us know exactly what you are saying.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

If you want to keep playing your childish game, then let me quote you directly on what you have said in defining the word 'tithe':

(a) 22 months ago, you said: "The word tithe means a tenth, nothing else."

If the word 'tithe' means 'a tenth, nothing else', what then is your problem?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Tithe means tenth. But exactly what does TITHING mean in your comment above? Tenth of WHAT? Without knowing the what, it is meaningless.


Tymon 5 years ago

Let it be meaningless to you. Tithe means tenth, and that's all you're looking for.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

You avoid answering my question because you don't want people to know that what you teach is meaningless. From other blogs, you have stated that tithing means giving a tenth of whatever you want. According to what you have said on other blogs, you leave it up to each person to decide what to tithe. Therefore, you have no definition that applies to everyone. Just let everyone make up their own definition. When it gets down to the bottom line, you merely teach let each person decide what they want tithing to mean to them. You totally ignore the Biblical definition, and by doing so, mislead those who read your comments.

Even though tithing was before the law (ONE example), and during the law, Jesus referred to tithing as matters of the law in Matthew 23:23. The law ended at Calvary. If the Lord wanted Christians to tithe, He would have carried tithing over into the New Testament. By "tithing" today, I believe it is being disrespectful to the Lord the same as if I were to sacrifice my dinner once a month as a sin offering to the Lord.

But I know there is no point debating with you because you are blinded by the truth.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I sensed you had carried over your shameless lies from the "other blogs", that's why I gave you simple answers for the DEFINITION of tithe as tenth - which YOU YOURSELF also acknowledge.

Rather than try to deceive the unsuspecting reader, why don't you tell them it was actually YOU Gary who said you can give a tithe of YOUR TRASH?!? Why are you trying to lie through this hub? You embarrassed yourself in that forum without anyone's help, so why bring that non-issue over here again?

Indeed, I don't go around haranguing people to bend to a particular anti-tithing dogma, because I recognize the fact that the Holy Spirit leads each believer in ways bigger than any man's argument! Many Christians have been led to tithe, with God's blessings attending their faith and obedience; and that is why I leave it up to others to decide whether or not they want to express their giving through tithing or in other ways.

There is no single verse in the Bible that condemns any believer for tithing. NONE. Only busy-bodies who do not know God's Word turn round to act as secretaries of Jesus so they can claim that Christians who tithe are being "disrespectful" to the Lord. I never saw anything more crass than that!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon said, "Rather than try to deceive the unsuspecting reader, why don't you tell them it was actually YOU Gary who said you can give a tithe of YOUR TRASH?!? Why are you trying to lie through this hub? You embarrassed yourself in that forum without anyone's help, so why bring that non-issue over here again?

You are a flat out liar. I said USING YOUR DEFINITION, the one YOU gave on the other blog, I could tithe on trash and it would qualify as tithe.

You are nothing but a liar as you continually take comments I make out of context to make it appear I say something totally different that I said when taken in context.

Again, you are a flat out liar.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

I cannot believe just how low you go. You need to get a life other than taking comments out of context which is exactly what false preachers do. You are a know-it-all who have proven just how little you actually know and understand. I can't believe how you can lie the way you do.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

If only hub allows one to quote the URL of other sites, I would sort you out pronto. Trying to hang your duplicity on me shows exactly how shameless you can be.

Everyone on that forum (nairaland) read my comments and did not for once misunderstand me. But since you were too far gone in your legalism, you tried to take my statement in your twisted "LOGIC" to mean something else that I never did. Even other commenters tried to correct you, but no - you kept up your games and ended up embarrassing yourself free of charge! Why did you run out of that forum after woefully failing to please your adulators?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Now, here is the issue at hand:

You said: "I said USING YOUR DEFINITION, the one YOU gave on the other blog, I could tithe on trash and it would qualify as tithe."

Using my definition? What definition did I give of TITHE or TITHING other than "TENTH"? Did I ever anywhere define those terms to mean 'trash can'? Can you really be so mendacious?

I was consistent in that forum, others saw and acknowledged that it was the same DEFINITION ('tenth') I have used throughout, as I also used here - quoting precisely what you also defined it to be in your comments 22 months ago!

If there was any other "definition" of the word 'tithe' or 'tithing', why did you constantly REFUSE to answer the simple question I asked you in that forum to produce that other definition of yours? WHY?

You tried to smuggle in your confusion on the simple DEFINITION of tithe until debosky pointed out the same thing as I have consistently maintained - that there is a difference between DEFINITION and APPLICATION! Everyone else (except YOU, of course) saw that there is no other "definition" of tithe than 'tenth' - nobody there objected.

If tithe/tithing has been DEFINED as 'tenth', what other "definition" did I give that led to your twisted 'logic' to tithe from your trash can? You and your gang tried to ridicule others on this subject but only ended up embarrasing yourselves in that forum, since you could not hang your duplicity on me!

By DEFINITION, 'tithe' and 'tithing' simply means 'tenth' - that is the fact that I have consistently maintained here and elsewhere. I did not give any other "definition" that led to your "logic", and not one person in that forum saw any other definition of that term before you tried unsuccessfully to twist my comments!

Now, leaving your twisted 'logic' aside, could you please give the 'DEFINITION' of tithe/tithing that is different from 'tenth'? Or should we yet again expect one of your confusion on the meaning of 'define'/'definition'?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

You still don't understand.

The definition of tithe is tenth. The definition of tithing is NOT tenth.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I'm sorry but I really don't have time for your non-productive arguments.

As I said earlier, by DEFINITION, 'tithe' and 'tithing' simply means 'tenth'.

Now, since you disagree that tithing is defined as 'tenth', please do two simple things:

(a) DEFINE the word 'tithing'; and -

(b) name your source for that DEFINITION if it is different from 'tenth'.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

The word tithe = tenth, or tenth part, which can be a noun or sometimes an adj.

The word tithing is an action verb. It is doing something with the tenth.

When we speak of "tithing," we can mean giving a tenth of the crops as per in Leviticus 27:30, or we can mean giving every tenth animal, etc. Without knowing a tenth of what, it leaves the door open for many interpretations.

I can say that I give a sin offering every time I give money to the church. But calling it a sin offering is not Biblical. Not only that, I believe it would be disrespectful to Jesus to do so because He paid the price for all of us. I can say that I tithed every time I give a tenth of something to the church. But calling it a tithe, I believe, would also be disrespectful to Jesus as the law was nailed to the cross. Even though Abram tithed before the law, there also were sin offerings before the law. But Jesus called tithing a payment, and matters of the law in Matthew 23:23. Since the law ended, and we are now a part of a superior priesthood, why would we want to carry forward an inferior method of financing the ministry?

Just because we are under grace does that give us the right to take a law that was nailed to the cross, change its rules to fit what we want, and continue using that word from the Bible in another context. During Biblical times they also had freewill offerings that could have amounted to a tenth of someone's income, but they didn't refer to it as tithing.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

I asked you two simple questions:

(a) DEFINE tithing; and

(b) give the SOURCE of your definition.

What you have done is characteristically tried to cheat around the DEFINITION of 'tithing' - which, of course, explains why you did NOT give any source for your definition.

Firstly, the word 'tithe' is ALSO used sometimes as a VERB, and not just only as a noun or adjective. But focusing on whether it's a verb, noun or adjective is not the same thing as a DEFINITION. I asked for the 'definition', and not how they are used in grammar.

Second, nobody is confusing tithe/tithing for sin offering, as tithing in the Bible is NEVER onced used in connection with anyone's salvation, redemption or justification.

This is why I anticipated you would through in your confusion on the meaning of 'define'/'definition' and start talking about things that nobody ever asked you!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Now, leaving aside your focus on grammar of verb, noun, adj., let's look at the DEFINITION of the word 'tithing', which appears only twice in Deut. 26:12 in the KV Bible, as quoted below:

"When thou hast made an end of (a)TITHING all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of (b)TITHING, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled"

Two Hebrew words are used in that verse for 'tithing':

(a)TITHING - ?a?s?ar

(b)TITHING - ma?a?s?e?r

Both Hebrew words above are DEFINED as 'tenth', and here are my sources for that definition (capitalizations are mine for emphasis) -

1. Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary

(a)TITHING - ?a?s?ar

H6237 ?a?s?ar

A primitive root (identical with H6238); to accumulate; but used only as denominative from H6235; TO TITHE, that is, TAKE OR GIVE A TENTH: - X surely, give (take) the tenth, (have, take) TITHE (-ING, -s), X truly.

2. Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions (BDB)

H6237 ?a?s?ar

1) TO TITHE, take the TENTH PART of, GIVE A TITHE, take a tithe

1a) (Qal) to tithe

1b) (Piel) to give a tithe

1c) (Hiphil) to take a tithe

From both sources, TITHING is defined simply as "take or give a TENTH" (Strong's), or "to tithe, take the TENTH part of, give a tithe" (BDB).

This is why I said earlier: "By DEFINITION, 'tithe' and 'tithing' simply means 'tenth' ". I did not ask you for their grammatical uses in sentence or speech, so your idea of verb, noun or adjective is simply confusing issues all the more for yourself.

That is the DEFINITION of 'tithe' and 'tithing' that I have consistently maintained - in that forum (nairaland) and elsewhere. So there's no reason why you should come to this hub and try to cheat by accusing me of your own duplicity.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

According to Strongs Hebrew dictionary, tithing means to take, give, or pay a tenth. So tithing doesn't mean tenth.

But God SPECIFIED exactly WHAT the tenth was to be. He didn't leave it up to each person to decide. You make the error in saying we are no longer under the law, so we don't have to be legalistic. The MOST legalistic part of tithing IS THE TENTH. And that is what you use today and then say you aren't legalistic!!!!!

IF you go back to the original blog here, the writer said, "In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best."

What the writer said is not Biblical. Instead of sticking to what he said and point out his errors, you, instead, pounce on those condemning the teaching that Christians are directed to or required to tithe on their income.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

It's obvious you're straining at a gnat. Again, by DEFINITION, both 'tithe' and 'tithing' mean the same thing - 'tenth'. The Hebrew word used for 'tithing' appears in several verses besides Deut. 26:12 (see also Gen. 28:22 - 'I will surely give the TENTH unto thee'). It is not the grammatical use in speech you had asked for, but the definition, no?

I read the OP (original poster) and have no problems with the statement you quoted: "In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best." That is a Biblical statement, as long as he did not mean that line to turn you into a Jew under the Jewish system.

Why is that so? Simple: the OP used the Old Testament for his post in just the same way that the apostle Paul used the same Old Testament to teach Christian giving in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14.

In verse 9 of 1 Corinthians 9, Paul was categorically clear about what part of the Old Testament (OT) he was quoting when he said: "For it is written in THE LAW OF MOSES..." Then in verse 10 he asserts that the verse he quoted from the Law of Moses was "written for OUR SAKES, NO DOUBT..."

WHO was Paul referring to by "OUR SAKES" if not to the CHRISTIAN? He certainly was not trying turn Christians into Jews, but he quoted the Law of Moses because he had said in 2 Tim. 3:16 that ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for doctrine to instruct us in righteousness! The Law of Moses is part of "all Scripture" - and in Romans 15:4, the same Paul notes that whatever things were written in old times (including the Law of Moses) were written for OUR LEARNING ("our" indicates Christians). . .


Tymon 5 years ago

. . . In this way, as long as the OP did not try to turn Christians into Jews just by using the Old Testament, I have absolutely no problem with his post. The problem is not with the OP, but with anti-tithers like yourself who do not know the power of Scripture and try to make a career out of attacking Christians who express their giving through tithing - the giving of a tenth of the resources.

When anti-tithers take it upon themselves to pounce on simple posts like the OP, it's obvious you have no clue how wretched your legalism is! True, we are not under the Law; but as Christians we certainly can use the Law of Moses as well as the OT prophets for present Christian applications in the same way that the apostle Paul used it in 1 Corinthians 9. It is legalists like you who have hypertensions whenever you see the Law of Moses in Christian writings - because you certainly would have had a serious problem with Paul in his day!

There is no verse in the Bible that condemns a Christian for tithing. NONE. Only legalistic anti-tithers, because they do not see simple matters, try to pounce on matters they do not understand.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tithe / tithing means take, pay, or give a tenth.

Tithe / tithing does not mean take, pay, or give the FIRST tenth.

Tithe / tithing does not mean take, pay, or give a tenth OF GROSS INCOME.

Without specifying what the tenth is based on, it is really meaningless. If you said you gave your friend a tenth, wouldn’t one want to know a tenth of what?

A tither is someone who takes, pays, or gives a tenth. Therefore, the following would all be considered tithers:

1 – Someone who gives a tenth of a dollar.

2 – Someone who gives one apple from a bag of ten apples.

3 – Someone who gives a tenth of his bag of potato chips.

4 – Someone who gives a tenth of their income.

5 – Someone who gives a tenth of their crops.

Unless WHAT is tithed is specified, it means little. That is why the Bible is specific as to WHAT each tithe consisted of.

Abram’s/Abraham’s tithe:

Genesis 14:20 (KJV)

20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 7:4 (KJV)

4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

The scriptures don’t say that Abraham tithed, or that he was a tither. Instead, the scriptures say that Abraham tithed, or gave the tenth OF THE SPOILS.

Jacob’s vow to tithe:

Genesis 28:22 (KJV)

22And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

The scriptures don’t say that Jacob tithed, or vowed to tithe, but rather says he would surely give the tenth OF ALL THOU SHALT GIVE ME.

Leviticus 27:30 (KJV)

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:32 (KJV)

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

God specifed a tithe OF THE LAND, and OF THE HERD OR FLOCK.

Deuteronomy 14:22 (KJV)

22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

God specified a tithe of ALL THE INCREASE OF THY SEED.

Deuteronomy 14:28 (KJV)

28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

God specified the tithe OF THINE INCREASE (translatation means of your PRODUCE).

Pastors and others have incorrectly defined tithing as giving the first tenth of your income, and teach it as being Biblical. Pastors and others have added the WHAT to their definition of tithe/tithing and teach it as though it came from the Bible.

The Biblical tithe always tells you WHAT to tithe. If you leave the WHAT out, tithing means nothing.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Thanks once again for arguing your fallacies over simple matters. Nobody asked you if tithe/tithing was on 'GROSS INCOME', as I certainly DID NOT "define" those words in that manner.

And sorry, a 'tither' is not defined as someone who 'TAKES' a tithe/tenth; rather, it is someone who 'GIVES' or 'pays' it (e.g., Melchizedek was certainly not a "tither", for he RECEIVED tithes from someone else - Abraham).

As regarding your concern that "Unless WHAT is tithed is specified, it means little", we know the difference between 'DEFINITION' and 'APPLICATION' - simple matters that you have continued to palter on.

By "definition", tithe/tithing is simply 'tenth'; and by "application", tithe/tithing in Scripture applies to various things - INCLUDING money! It is not limited to farm produce, as anti-tithers have forever argued.

I've also made clear what I was referring to in its 'application' in my comments - it is giving a tenth/tithe from one's RESOURCES! So, what's with your fallacy of 'a bag of potato chips' and all what nots?

It's perhaps because you choose not to be reasonable that's why you don't see any meaning in these simple things.


Tymon 5 years ago

Gary,

Now, with tithes in Scripture regarding Abraham, Jacob and Israel (the Levitical tithes). You expressed concern that -

"Pastors and others have incorrectly defined tithing as giving the first tenth of your income, and teach it as being Biblical. Pastors and others have added the WHAT to their definition of tithe/tithing and teach it as though it came from the Bible"

No, that's not true. Rather, it appears that YOU are one of those anti-tithers who have confused between a 'DEFINITION' and an 'APPLICATION' of those terms (tithe/tithing).

For example, on this hub 22 months ago you said: "The definition of the Biblical Tithe is clear - it is ONLY on food items (crops and animals)." That simply shows how you confused the issue for yourself, because you had argued for a part of its "application" and confused that for its "definition".

As I said earlier to set matters in their distinctions - by "definition", tithe/tithing is simply 'tenth'; and by "application", tithe/tithing in Scripture applies to various things.

In its application therefore, tithe/tithing is definitely not "ONLY on food items (crops and animals)" - it includes money and other non-food items, as in Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek, which I have shown elsewhere (at nairaland, and nobody there argued to the contrary).

So, we can understand that what many pastors teach on tithe/tithing is Biblical, and there's no reason to attack them simply because you can't bring yourself to see simple matters in their distinctions.


LQ 5 years ago

@Gary Arnold I have been reading the post and I am just curious to see if you offer a book or digital article on the topic as a whole? I am very interested in sharing this information with people and would like some ideas to research myself in the Bible! Thanks :)


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Title: Strong's Hebrew and Greek

H6237

A primitive root (identical with H6238); to accumulate; but used only as denominative from H6235; to tithe, that is, take or give a tenth:— X surely, give (take) the tenth, (have, take) tithe (-ing, -s), X truly.?

@LQ,

Yes, I offer a free book download. Don't think I am allowed to give a link on this blog, but you can search at google, and enter my name along with tithing book and I am sure you will find it quickly.

My material is currently being used by many pastors and Bible Study instructors in the US, Canada, Australia, and East Africa that I know of. As far as I know, it has also been translated into other languages.


LQ 5 years ago

Thank you Gary Arnold. My husband and I, along with his parents and sister were up late talking about this! It's definitely an eye opener. Although we are still praying and waiting for the leading from the Holy Spirit on this tender subject, it has definitely what we needed to clarify and really dig into God's word. All the Glory goes to my heavenly father for directing me to this blog for more insight on tithing :)


anthonia 5 years ago

my salary is Ten Thousand Naira, how much will be my Tithe to God?


edafekaitogba, julius iyede 5 years ago

God bless for doing a wonderful work.


David 5 years ago

People should seek truth on this. I have read much on this and have been told many things. Seek first his kingdom and let him lead you and not man.

Dont let those who agree or disagree with this direct you. There are truly more important things. Follow the first two commandments, there is much said on how to live life.

There is no focus at all in the new testament regarding tithes or tithing but there is plenty on how to live a godly life. Living a life where ALL belongs to the Father and he is given the freedom to do with it what he wants.

Too many avoid Acts 4:32-35. Can you imagine if we all lived like this. I have not seen any evidence that those who tithe are any better off then those who dont.

Read the word, fast and pray and let the Father direct your heart. I think some need to tithe while others do not. If you have a habit to offer to the Father out of your abundance for the betterment of his kingdom is that not doing his will?

Some need to tithe or they would give nothing. Look at the fruits and from that weigh it. I have seen too many well to do pastors, while needs go unmet in thier building. Again let the Father direct you in this for words of man are often flawed. If we seek him he will give us wisdom and direction, trust him. If you need answers, look to him. Make no assumtion, wolves come in sheeps clothing. The word is our gauge and the Father is the one who reveals.

Ask a man his opinion then take that, seek the father, read his word and see what captures your heart. Sometimes you may need to fast and pray. As a person matures in their relationship with the Father more becomes revealed to them. Let no title sway a man, as many claim to be called. No paper on a wall, or approval from an institute makes a man more righteous or regarded higher in the eyes of the Father.

Peace.


LQ 5 years ago

After reading the pdf. I found online and reading this post, I am convicted more than ever that 'tithing' isn't required. HOWEVER, I do believe with all my heart that God does expect us to support other Godly ministries. The church you attend is a ministry and I believe God would want you to support it's growth.How much you give is between God and you, but HE also does expect you to give! God is SO good and I am so happy to actually be giving and not 'Tithing.'


curlyq 5 years ago

I have been studying the tithe because I was convicted by the Holy Spirit that it is wrong to tithe today.The whole teaching of it is against scripture.If we deny the Spirits leadership in all areas of life then we have blasphemed Him,and we truly don't trust Him to lead us.We can't make a decision based on a %,that's the easy way.The Holy Spirit is spontaneous.Jesus and the whole Bible speaks of helping the poor more than any other giving.In my heart,I know God is more concerned about the poor than paying the preacher's salary with the unbiblical tithe.The preachers needs should be met,but not to the point that the less fortunate are ignored by the church.I've seen it happen in my church and it's a sad day when we put more money in bricks and mortar than we do to help other's.The gift of love and love gifts of money will out do the tithe any day of the week.


Tymon 5 years ago

@curlyq,

Your own personal conviction does not amount to the conviction by the Holy Spirit. Everyone nowadays claims online that they were convicted by the Holy Spirit - yet, it is by the same Holy Spirit that many Christians are persuaded to tithe.

Tithes were also GIFTS of love to God - that is why they were described as 'heave offering' in Numbers 18:24. It is not anti-tithing campaigns or arguments that inspire increased and healthy giving in the Body of Christ; rather, it is the willingness of the giver that underscores giving in both the OT and NT.


minav29 5 years ago

Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).

New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government—a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.

The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.


Tymon 5 years ago

Tithing among God's people is not an act of compulsion. In both the OT and NT, all expressions of giving were underscored by willingness from the heart of the giver.

There is hardly any NT 'guideline' for Christian giving that is not ALREADY found and taught in the OT. This is why Paul used the Law of Moses to teach Christian giving in 1 Corinthians 9, without trying to turn Christians into Jews. Nothing is "new" about the so-called 'New Testament giving principles'.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Gary

Good on yer' mate! You've laboured long and hard for the truth and I commend your commitment and patience to serve the body of Christ.

God is revealing to more and more Christians who have ears to hear, that we have been subject to erroneous teachings concerning 'the tithe', and I am one such, also a pastor myself, though not the ‘Senior’ one in the fellowship I am in, who has sought truth in this area and found it.

It does take time to study for yourself, with an open heart before God, but if you have a good study bible and are up for patient cross-referencing, any but the very stubborn and closed-minded must surely be able to understand what the ‘tithe’ is. And Gary has clearly referenced the three types of tithe as found in Lev 27:30-33 The Levitical Tithe; Deut. 14:22-27 The Festival Tithe and Deut. 14:28-29 The Poor Tithe, aka ‘The Three-Year tithe.’

In all of these, as should also be patently clear, the tithe is produce of the land and livestock from the land of Israel, aka, food, to be received and enjoyed by the Levites (who served the priests), the priests (to whom the Levites tithed 1/10 of what the children of Israel had tithed to them) and the poor, the stranger, the homeless, the fatherless and the widow in one’s own community. And as such, the tithe was not required from all Israel, but rather from those who were agricultural. It is important to study and receive these truths as it should translate into how you understand what the tithe really was and therefore how it relates to you as a Christian under the New Covenant.

Simply put, the main ‘principle’ of tithing is that we can choose to give food to labourers in the church and the poor amongst us; I would encourage that. I would especially encourage churches to provide food regularly as a blessing to its members after services, at times of celebrations and as a freewill offering to the needy within the community. This would more closely resemble the tithing done by the children of Israel than what we see today.

However, that was the system of giving which God instituted under the Law of Moses, the Mosaic covenant, the Old Covenant for the children of Israel, the circumcised Hebrews, the Jews, to follow. Without doubt, on reading the bible, we must understand that as Gentile believers, being grafted into the family of God by faith in Messiah Jesus, we are not bound to the Old Covenant and not required to follow it. Jesus fulfilled it for us and, freed us from the curse of the law, the handwriting of requirements (against us) and now we serve Him under the law of liberty and grace.

Tithing is but one of 613 Jewish laws (why would we doubt that the Jews accurately counted the Laws passed down to them, as some seem to?) The bible is adamant that if we choose to be under one of the Laws of Moses (given to the children of Israel) then we are debtors to obey them all. It was impossible for Israel to do, and thus the sacrificial system for atonement of sins was necessary, but Christ redeemed us from all that, by becoming our atonement for sin.

Put simply, though in the law is the knowledge of sin, receiving Christ’s atonement for sin, frees us from striving to obey the law, knowing we can only ever fail to do so perfectly.

So, as children of adoption, under grace, what did Paul and the elders of the church require from us? Acts 15:28: For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well (also see v18). This ruling by the Jerusalem council covered four subject areas, none of which brought forward the principle of tithing food to the Levites, the priests, the poor, etc.

But we know from other scriptures, that giving, especially to the poor and needy honours God. He is interested in our alms and views our practical support of widows and orphans as ‘true religion’.

So if not taught to continue to tithe, which patently we are not, if we but read the 4 scriptures in the New testament that mention ‘tithe’ and the other 3 that refer to ‘tithing’ (I am giving sparse scriptural references as it is not difficult to look up so few verses for yourselves!)how should we support the work of God with our finances?

Throughout the writings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus, we are taught to give freely and with liberality, as God loves a cheerful giver. You determine the amount (not your Pastor). When saints come together to serve the Lord, to seek His face and to do according to His will, the needs of the local body should be known, being transparent, and the burden to meet those needs should be shared enthusiastically amongst the members according to the means they have (and not what they do not have).

This is the principle by which the early church operated and the congregations grew and the message of the gospel spread throughout the known world.

This is the proper way to teach freewill giving to Christians, who can understand the blessings their finances can bring to others and choose to do the best they can without being coerced. I’m sure we have all felt that tightening of the lip and heavy atmosphere of guilt, obligation, self-righteousness and judgement which accompanies the ‘will a man rob God’ cattle-prod.

Read all of Malachi and not just from Malachi 3:8 and you will have a better understanding that the ‘men’ being referred to were the dishonest priests of God who were stealing the grain and wine tithed to them by the Levitical workers; not bringing it into the Jerusalem storehouses so that there would be food in the house of God (literally).

That scripture in no way applies to Gentile believers who don’t live in Israel and aren’t required by the Mosaic laws to pay tithes of food to support the descendants of Levi.

I’ll rest my case to say I have oft found it interesting how the body of Christ can choose to ‘spiritualise’ certain principles adapting OT scriptures to support a NT doctrine / encouragement, e.g. spiritual warfare principles based on Israel’s wars etc. We don’t adopt these battles with our enemies in a literal sense, and indeed NT scripture teaches us that we wrestle not with flesh and blood…howbeit then, that one of the only principles we want to adopt wholesale relates to tithing to a priesthood that no longer exists?

Except, no, not wholesale, but rather with a few major adaptions since the slaughter of animals in our day just won’t cut it, and a basket of fruit and veg for the pastor’s pantry won’t pay the church rent nor the insurance on his motor, so just show me the money, will you? Far more profitable and preferable (for some).

And to close, giving for selfish gain is not honourable, though God rewards those who give cheerfully in order to bless, but it doesn't work where the motive is covetousness, greed, self-righteousness or pride. And all the teaching on the tithe being a requirement, a covenant-connector, necessary lest you be under a financial curse…is false, misleading, ignorant, manipulative, counter-productive – albeit highly lucrative for a select few.

I rest my ‘case’ here. If you really want to know the truth, you must seek it out for yourself. The internet, books, CDs, sermons, videos are helpful in our modern day to point you in a direction, but unless is aligns with what is revealed in scripture and supported by other scriptural references allowing you to come to a justified conclusion, then you should not adopt it as truth. You cannot rely on an interpretation that is merely ‘inferred’ as told to you by your pastor or ‘that’s what always believed growing up’ or ‘that’s what the Man of god on TV says, and he’s rich!’ No. We must rightly divide the word for ourselves based solidly on the teachings of Jesus and the writings / acts of the apostolic church fathers. Without this, you will be lead astray by false doctrines, doctrines of demons and those who will exploit you for selfish gain. Don’t let this happen to you when God’s way is the only right way.

2 Peter 2: 1-3 But there were also fal


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

ps the Festival Tithe as per the OT was food partaken of by the family who brought it to the Jerusalem temple (which would no doubt be shared with all the other families who had also brought food to the house of God as at that time) as a celebration of God's goodness to them; whereas the Levitical tithe was brought at harvest (possibly 3 times a year) to the more localised Levitical cities stationed around the land of Israel (not to Jerusalem specifically). The priest's heave offering from the Levitical tithe was meant to be brought by the priests from the Levitical cities into the Jerusalem storehouse - but this was not always faithfully done.


Sue 5 years ago

Tithing Test

The Word says that The Lord Jesus tithed (true or false)?

Peter, a fisherman tithed of the fish he caught (true or false)?

It is written that everyone in the OT (farmers, merchants, shepherds, shipbuilders, hunters, etc.) seeking to obey the law tithed (true or false).

Abraham tithed to Melchizdek in the same way the NT believers did to Jesus Christ (true or false)?

It is written that tithes paid for temples, temple maintenance, etc. (true or false)?

Jesus taught his disciples to tithe (true or false)?

There are many examples in the Bible of people tithing of their money from wages (true or false)?

The NT teaches that we should tithe to ministers in the same way the Jews tithed to priests (True or false)?

The Bible teaches that God‘s standard of giving from our wages is ten percent?

It is written that the righteous poor tithed in the OT (true or false)?

Since everyone is held to the same standard, tithing is Biblically fair to everyone (true or false)?

Jesus became a curse for everything under the law but tithes (true or false)?

It is written that Abraham kept the 90% of the spoil after giving Melchizdek 10% (true or false)?

It is written that Abraham tithed on his own personal property or livestock (true or false)?

Jacob gave tithes even before God blessed him (true or false)?

Only Levite priests could collect tithes under the Old Covenant, the New Covenant says that our pastors are Levite priests today (true or false)?

Under the law, money was a tithable commodity (true or false)?

Christian converts were asked to tithe to the Church (true or false)?

Tithes were not a part of the Law (true or false)?

We should pay the church that we attend 10% of all of our income because we owe it to them; this is the only way you can pay God (true or false)?

We pay tithes because the Bible tells you to pay 10% of your wages to your local church (true or false)?

We pay tithes because the scripture says that fruit, crop and all food in any form were changed into money, for there was no money in the biblical times (true or false)?

We pay tithes because the book of Malachi was rebuking and giving instruction concerning the Law of God to Israel as well as to the believers of Christ today (true or false)?

We pay tithes because Abraham paid 10% of his wages to Melchizdek (true or false)?

Get your answers from the Bible!


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Wow! Great test! Thanks, Sue. I think I score 100%, no?

From my knowledge of the bible, all the answers are patently FALSE.

If anyone thinks otherwise, please quote the relevant scriptures to support your answers.

Back to Sue.

Janet


Sue 5 years ago

Thanks,

For any time we add to, take away from or change the Word of God to make a demand or a doctrine for others to follow, we are promoting false doctrine.

The Bible was written clearly. They had money in the Bible, and if God wanted us to give a percentage of it in the OT or NT, He would have said so. In order to teach tithing for today, man had to change food to money, spoil to money, ignore the other things that Abraham did, deny that fact God did not tell or command Abraham to tithe, take away the storehouse as it was meant to function in the Bible, ignore the windows of heaven pouring out a blessing that we will not have room enough to receive, deny that tithing was under the law and deny that we are free to give as we purpose in our hearts because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To demand tithes is to reveal that man does not have enough faith that people will give enough money to their purposes without putting them under the quilt of tithing.


onastano@yahoo.com 5 years ago

The only time God ever ask His people to put Him to test is in on the issue of this long debated subject TITHIG. I don't think God was more willing to pure out His heavenly blessing more on the old testament beleivers than the new testament christians. The opening of the Windows of heaven is even more enjoyed by the new testament christian who dare to put God to test (Mal. 3:10) because GRACE also plays a great role


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@onastano,

Malachi 3:7 (KJV) “Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ORDINANCES, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?”

If you want the blessings referred to in Malachi 3, then you must follow His ORDINANCES which are in Numbers 18.

The blessings referred to in Malachi 3 is RAIN.

Malachi 3:10

10 , and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,

Genesis 7:11-12

11 The same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Genesis 8:2

2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained

New Testament:

Matthew 4:7 (NIV) Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”


David 5 years ago

It is good to see people seeking truth. We are not bound to tithe and anyone who takes the time and studies this as well as look at the history etc they will see that it does not apply.

What people do not seem to understand that things do change. The word lives forever but things have changed. We are now the temple, we do not have to sacrifice to atone for our sins and the list goes on.

When people understand the Law and that Christ fulfilled it it means we are no longer accountable to it. This does not mean we can not honour the Father with it. To understand this we must seek him and if we wish to apply any Law to our life it has to only be done to honour him and nothing else. You can not justify yourself by it, hold others to it or count yourself more righteous by it. TO do so you put yourself under the whole law and not under Christ.

It is clear that what you eat does not make you more holy then others. The Sabbath is a day YOU put aside to rest in the Lord. For the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

When we truly seek the Father he will lead us just as he did Paul and the others. No school or other system of man be held higher.

When we understand what Christ truly did for us our LIVES are truly transformed. We do not consider ourselves more righteous and judge others according to our standards. We weigh our thoughts and actions one whether they honour the father or not. Christ and the others give plenty of examples of how to live that honours the Father.

As you grow you will gain understandings and things that you once thought were this or that may change. It does not mean you were wrong, but that you have matured to where the Father can reveal more to you. Be humble for there may be times when we are wrong or slightly off course. As along as someone is truly seeking and is humble the Father can use them.

It says, seek ye first the KINGDOM of God, not man or what man says. You must also understand that things will apply differently to one then the other, this is why we do not judge a man by what he eats or drinks etc. Col 2:16.

If you do all to honour the Father then honour him!!! Share with others what he has done but DO NOT hold them or expect them to do as you do!!! In this you will honour the Father and keep yourself covered by the sacrifice that Christ made for you.

In the old and new testaments the Father has ALWAYS had a heart for the poor, orphans and widows. If you see a need then should that not be filled if you have the ability to do so? Many pastors etc have put their people in debt and so many who need help do not get it.

Be accountable to what you do with your gift, do not hand it to someone and say it is on their head.

Malachi is the greatest evidence that tithing does not apply. It is very simple and straightforward, do this and I will do this, test me on it. Many have tested and have ended up worse off. People like to hang yokes on peoples necks as to reasons they were not blessed. Some will use example that we are still better off then those who live in 3rd world nations. This is garbage and goes against scripture and what he says.

Acts 4:32 is a great example and power in being of one heart and mind. There is much more that can be said. But you all have the resources, go seek.

Peace to all those that seek his kingdom


howdy boy 5 years ago

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "If you want the blessings referred to in Malachi 3, then you must follow His ORDINANCES which are in Numbers 18."

My answer: you are recommending a legalistic approach to God's ordinances, which is entirely different in manner to the hermeneutics of the apostles. A Christian does not need to follow God's ordinances in a legalistic manner before His blessings are received, for the following reasons:

1. The Bible clearly states that all the promises of God are YES in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 1:20). A believer who trusts God for His promised blessing in Malachi can receive the same without seeking a legalistic approach to Biblical interpretation such as you argue.

2. Most of the teachings of the NT apostles were derived from the Old Testament (particularly from the Law of Moses) without seeking a legalism such as you argue. The apostle Paul used the Law of Moses in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 to teach NT doctrine for Christians without asking us to become Jews.

3. The apostles clearly referred to the promises of God in the OT in teaching practical issues for the Christian life. For example, when Paul taught about Christian children honouring their parents in Ephesians 6:2-3, we know that he was clearly quoting the Law of Moses in Exodus 20:12, and he alluded to the same promised blessings in the OT Law for Christians in the NT, without arguing legalistically that we "must" follow God's ordinances in a literal fashion.

There are as many more reasons to show that your style of argument is unwholesome and skewed. A Christian can prove God's blessings in his or her life even if such promises are in the OT - and there's nothing wrong using the OT for practical Christian living, as long as a believer understands how to use God's word.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary:

Your quote: "The blessings referred to in Malachi 3 is RAIN."

My answer: The "blessing" in Malachi 3:10 is not 'RAIN' - not in a literal sense; and tying that verse to the deluge in Genesis 7 and 8 is a huge fallacy!

In Genesis 7 and 8, the 'rain' was NOT a 'blessing' but rather a JUDGEMENT upon the world (see Gen. 7:4 - "I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I DESTROY from off the face of the earth"). There is just no way one can use Genesis 7 & 8 in such a fashion to deduce that God's JUDGEMENT to DESTROY the ungodly with "rain" highlights the "blessing" in Malachi 3:10.

When God speaks of open heavens to pour a BLESSING upon His people, it does not necessarily mean only 'rain' - rather, it goes far beyond that and includes a prosperous turn around from very dire and diffcult situations in the lives of His people.

For example, in 2 Kings 7 Elisha prophesied a miraculous turn around during a very difficult economic situation in Israel's history. His prophecy was ridiculed by the king's attendant who said: "Behold, if the LORD would make WINDOWS IN HEAVEN, might this thing be?" (verse 2). Nonetheless, while there was no rain ensuing or prophesied, the situation changed as Elisha pronounced.

The expression 'windows of heaven' in Malachi 3:10 does not necessarily point to a literal 'rain' like the deluge in Genesis 7 & 8 which you tied it to. In Malachi, God's promise to pour out a "BLESSING" simply means a prosperous situation (see 2 Chron. 31:10 - "Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the LORD, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the LORD hath BLESSED his people; and that which is left is this great store").


Tymon 5 years ago

@David,

Your quote: "Malachi is the greatest evidence that tithing does not apply. It is very simple and straightforward, do this and I will do this, test me on it. MANY HAVE TESTED AND HAVE ENDED UP WORSE OFF." (emphasis mine)

My observation: the last part of your quote is a huge fallacy! Just one simple test for you: please scroll back up to the poll of this article and see the result for yourself: MORE and MORE Christians are tithing despite ann the anti-tithing arguments and campaigns all over the place! What that says is simple: those who tithe are not "worse off" as you argue, or they would long have altogether stopped tithing.

I once vehemently argued against tithing for Christians until it dawned on me that -

1. anti-tithing campaigns and arguments HAVE NEVER PROVEN God's promise in any believer's life

2. anti-tithing campaigns and arguments HAVE NEVER inspired more giving in the Christian Church - especially in America (statistic prove that the average giving in the American Church is not even up to 3%)

3. most anti-tithing campaigns and arguments are based on shoddy hermeneutics and fallacies which do not stand up to seasoned dialogue.

When you make generalised statements like the bold in your quote, do you stop to think about the other MANY Christians who continue to tithe and have PROVEN God's word in their lives?


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

I have read through just about all the comments on this post and I think you are missing the fundamental point of what the so-called 'anti-tithers' are saying:

It is NOT that giving ten per cent of your income is wrong, giving to support the work of the church isn't wrong.

I totally agree that those who choose to give ten per cent of their income have received blessings - God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

However, what IS wrong is teaching that tithing is a REQUIREMENT for Christians. The bible DOES NOT TEACH THAT.

Neither Jesus nor any of the apostolic fathers taught that Christians ought to tithe and the written canon of scripture is what we are to base our doctrines upon.

The Old Covenant is a shadow/type of GREATER things to come. Jesus fulfilled / completed that level of God's dispensation with mankind as it says in Matt 5:17-21; we are now to obey Christ's commandments as per the NEW Covenant, because you must agree we do not even attempt to obey all the commandments of the old, agreed? And yet, if we break one...we break all, so let's not go there.

Now, since the Old Covenant has been superceded by the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Messiah, Jesus, scripture DOES teach us that if we go back and rebuild 'the law' we make ourselves transgressors (Gal 2:14-21).

You do agree that tithing was part of the giving structure to provide food for the Levites who served in the tabernacle, don't you, and as such part of the Law of Moses given to the children of Israel? Hope so. Cos' that is bible truth.

Yes, we should respect the Old Testament and learn from its moral teachings - but the individual works contained therein, are not required of us. If, knowing this, we choose to do follow these, possibly as a symbol of our 'righteousness', God says that we make it as if Christ died in vain. No-one could perfectly obey all those laws, except Christ, and Christ freed us from the need to.

BUT GIVING FREELY AS ONE WILLS IN ONE'S HEART IS TAUGHT AS DOCTRINE FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT BELIEVER - but not in some churches! Compulsory or heavily coerced 'tithing' is taught instead, putting some people under a sense of guilt and shame, telling them that their finances are CURSED if they cannot obey this 'law.' But scripture says in Galatians 3:10-14 that the just shall live by faith and not law.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Correct teaching will lead to correct understanding and will lead to a right response.

The early church did not suffer lack because they understood the principles of giving to support one another (not to a 'priest/pastor').

The collections for the saints spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 was to support the members of the Jerusalem church who were going through a time of famine - and so likely would have been food, as well as money, because you can't buy grain where there is none. Also the Corinthians and the Galatians were told to lay aside and store up their gift as they prospered - and this storing up usually refers to grain, oil and wine - imperishable foods.

I don't think that you can argue that we MUST tithe in a NON-LEGALISTIC way. if we must do it, you make it a law, not freewill.

We have laws in the New Covenant - mainly 'the law of love, the law of Christ, the laaw of faith' - but none of these include 'the law of tithing'.

And finally, please don't spiritualise everything! there are some very literal interpretations of Scripture that is necessary for prper grounding.

Malachi 3 is referring to RAIN from heaven to WATER THE CROPS so that children of Israel could have an abundant harvest from which to TITHE food, grain and livestock to the Levites who serve the priesthood and the tabernacle, and if the greedy priests would stop robbing God, they would then bring the tithe of the tithe offered up to them as a heave offering from the levites into the STOREHOUSE IN JERUSALEM so that there would be FOOD IN GOD'S HOUSE - LITERALLY.

And that's biblical truth.

You do with it what you will - learn from it what you will, but please try to avoid teaching error.

Christians are NOT robbing God if they don't 'tithe' as they are NOT REQUIRED to 'tithe' therefore God is NOT GOING TO TEST THEM IN OBEDIENCE TO 'TITHE.'

But He will reward WHATEVER YOU GIVE FREELY FROM YOUR HEART, WITHOUT COMPUNCTION.

Janet

Janet


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Thank you for your comments.

However, I think you hugely miss the real issues by many miles. I won't go through each one of them; but those highlighted below should suffice for now:

#1. Your concern: "However, what IS wrong is teaching that tithing is a REQUIREMENT for Christians."

My answer: I have nowhere argued that tithing or any other form of giving is a "REQUIREMENT" for the Christian. Even if you do not use the term 'tithing', would you say that GIVING is a "requirement" for Christians? Is 'freewill giving' a REQUIREMENT for Christians? What in fact is "REQUIRED" or a "REQUIREMENT"?

The issue is not so much a matter of what is "required" as is the reality of expressing our giving in a systematic and meaningful manner.

______

#2. Your quote: "Now, since the Old Covenant has been superceded by the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Messiah, Jesus, scripture DOES teach us that if we go back and rebuild 'the law' we make ourselves transgressors (Gal 2:14-21)."

My answer: Your second point is simply another fallacy as none of my comments is asking anyone to go back and "rebuild the law". The basic point I have consistently maintained is that the Christian cannot throw out the Scriptures of the OT (see Romans 15:4). Using the OT for practical Christian living does not mean that we are "rebuilding the law" - rather, I have shown that many of the doctrines of the apostles were derived directly from the same OT and the Law of Moses that Christians are too much in haste to throw out!

If the OT as 'Scripture' has no relevance to the Christian life, then by all means NONE of the apostles should have taught any Christian doctrine from any verse of the OT! On the contrary, they used the OT as the foundation of their teaching in the NT. This does not mean we thereby come under the Law or seek to apply a legalistic approach to interpreting the OT. However, we find that the OT as 'Scripture' is foundational to all Christian belief and doctrines - including issues about the so-called 'NT giving principles'.

_________

#3. Your quote: "You do agree that tithing was part of the giving structure to provide food for the Levites who served in the tabernacle, don't you, and as such part of the Law of Moses given to the children of Israel? Hope so. Cos' that is bible truth."

My answer: If you agree that tithing was part of the giving structure to those who served in the OT tabernacle, are you not at the same time CONFIRMING Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14?

Most certainly, Paul was effectively using the Law of Moses in 1 Cor. 9:13 - or would you deny that fact as "Bible Truth"? He effectively said that just as the ministers in the OT received sustenance for their ministry, so also "IN THE SAME WAY" should ministers in the NT be supported. So, please tell me: what is wrong in the fact that Christians today use an OT passage like Numbers 18 to present a Biblical truth of supporting NT ministers "IN THE SAME WAY" if that includes tithing, just as you agreed?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#4. Your quote: "I don't think that you can argue that we MUST tithe in a NON-LEGALISTIC way. if we must do it, you make it a law, not freewill."

My answer: Sorry, but perhaps you have been reading someone else's argument and mistaking them for mine! I NEVER at anytime argued a "MUST" in anything about Christian giving. On the contrary, I have consistently maintained that all forms and expressions of giving for Christians should be VOLUNTARY rather than by coercion or compulsion.

The problem with many anti-tithers is that they have never imagined that tithing could be voluntary. In their mistaken zeal they hastily conclude that all references to tithing in the Bible must by default be coerced or legalistic. Many other anti-tithers have only recently started coming to the realization that the very first mention of tithes in the Bible in Genesis 14 was VOLUNTARY! So, why is it such a strange phenomenon to these folks that there are Christians who have chosen to express their giving in the form of "voluntary tithes"?

_________

#5. Your quote: "And finally, please don't spiritualise everything! there are some very literal interpretations of Scripture that is necessary for prper grounding."

My answer: Please try not flattering yourself. I never set out to 'spiritualise everything' - and I find that those who complain in such a manner have never taken time to read the Bible for themselves! I'll leave it at that by noting that I'm not a "literalist" who's inclined to the sort of 'Christian fundamentalism' you probably are thinking of.

_________

#6. Your quote: "Malachi 3 is referring to RAIN from heaven to WATER THE CROPS so that children of Israel could have an abundant harvest from which to TITHE food, grain and livestock to the Levites who serve the priesthood and the tabernacle". . .etc., etc.

My answer: Please read that passage again. The whole of Malachi did not even mention or infer "RAIN", because that was not the need of Israel at the time. Besides, you are reading the passage backwards, because you suggest that they needed the 'rain' to produce a harvest for the tithe - whereas, God asked them first for the tithes and offerings BEFORE promising His blessings!

While the whole passage said absolutely nothing about a so-called 'rain', Malachi 3:10 simply used the word "BLESSING", which is commonly understood to imply God's prosperity in many applications upon His people! For example, see the many aspects of God's blessings far beyond the idea of 'rain' in Deuteronomy 28.

There are different Hebrew words translated as 'blessing' in our English Bibles; but in the case of Malachi 3:10, the word is 'berakah', defined by Brown-Driver-Brigg's Hebrew Definition as -

1) blessing

2) (source of) blessing

3) BLESSING, PROSPERITY

4) blessing, praise of God

5) a gift, present

6) treaty of peace

(see also Strong's, which defines the same word as "by implication PROSPERITY", emphasis mine).

God would "pour out a BLESSING, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" - this is far beyond the idea of rain. Just because we read of 'windows of heaven' does not suggest "rain" at all in that context - not even when you want to "literalize" that verse. It is such a huge fallacy that many people make in arguing for 'rain', and it just reveals how much they are willing to ignore basic principles of reading the Bible.

________

#7. Your quote: "Christians are NOT robbing God if they don't 'tithe' as they are NOT REQUIRED to 'tithe' therefore God is NOT GOING TO TEST THEM IN OBEDIENCE TO 'TITHE.'

My answer: In as much as I did not accuse anyone of robbing God, you cannot argue against what you have never experienced in your life! Those who have PROVEN God's promises in their lives according to that verse know the power thereof. You can argue all you want to the contrary, but it takes absolutely nothing away from their reality.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ tymon

Firstly, I agree with you that not all my comments were directly in response to yours, but your comments acted as a prompt for what I wanted to say in summary.

I have a few things to say in response to some of the counter-arguments (if I may call it that) that you have made.

#1 In most settings that I know of, tithing is taught alongside a rendering of Malachi 3:8, suggesting that if you DON’T tithe, you are thereby under a curse. As no committed Christian would want to feel that they were knowingly putting themselves under curse, robbing God and robbing themselves of God’s blessings, tithing would therefore seem to be a necessity for God-fearing Christians who want to live righteously. Thus my comment, that tithing is taught as a requirement for Christians.

There are many teachings that show us a way to walk right before God and none of them, as far as New Testament is concerned, come with the threat of a curse (from which Christ has fully redeemed us.

Teaching on giving should be such that we are encouraged to give in a systematic way, but without the need for threats – veiled or unveiled. The way such systematic giving is taught can cause a huge stumbling block to some folk who have a mind to give, but not always the means. Tithing teachers often tell the poor that if they give to God, He will look after them, and so if they cannot afford it – for whatever legitimate reasons – they are made to feel that their lack is their own fault s well as a ‘punishment’ from God for not being faithful to tithe.

Well, God provides us with all good things and we are instructed to look after our families. If my rent is £100 and God provides me with £100 to pay it, should I therefore give VOLUNTARILY £10 of it to my church and thus fall behind with my rent? Does that really make sense? I don’t believe so. I believe a man/woman should provide for their family and bless God with however much they are willing to give as a sacrifice of thanksgiving out of their surplus – if they have a surplus after essential needs are met.

What are your views on my (rent) example above?

#2 Romans 15:4 says, ‘For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.’

Note it says scripture was written for our learning, it does not say for our doing.

I, for one, have no desire to throw out the OT; I love to read the historical accounts, stories, wisdom, prophecies, Law etc. - and I have read the bible cover to cover and many books over and over. I have read and re-read passages of scripture in order to be convinced about how I should relate to the OT. I perfectly agree that Jesus and the Apostolic Fathers oft quoted from the OT as one would expect – it is the foundation of our faith – written for our learning. But that doesn’t mean, in my understanding, that we are given licence to choose whatever scriptures we want from the OT to form our doctrine for Christian living. Surely you would agree, that if a zealous ‘Christian’ suddenly chose to stone adulterers because it is written in the OT to do so, that we would not deem that to be good Christian living?

Personally, I believe the doctrines espoused by Jesus and the NT writers are sufficient for standards of Christian behaviour and Christian living. The Jews had the OT and that did not produce righteousness in them. Jesus showed us a new and living way to enter into right standing with Him by faith. I believe the canon of scripture in the NT includes all those things that we need to focus on to be in right-standing with Him, and the OT quotes which are included are the ones He wants us to consider and continue on with.

#3 You quote 1 Cor 9:14-15, about ministers reaping material things having sown spiritual things, but you miss verse 12 where Apostle Paul says, ‘12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ.’

Paul did not want people to think he was exploiting them financially, so he did not accept money from them, apart from to render offerings to ‘the church’ = the congregations.

If Paul had really wanted workers in the church to receive financial support IN THE SAME WAY as the OT, do you not think he would have written about it explicitly?

Do you really not think that he would have instructed faithful Christians to tithe if that was the right standard for Christian giving? But he doesn’t instruct us to tithe and neither does he accept financial support for himself at all – lest he hinder the gospel (message) of goodwill, freewill, love, service and liberty in Christ Jesus. Why are most ministers not so happy to imitate Paul in this regard by NOT asking for financial support?

Also, Paul says in Galatians 1, that the gospel, good news, which he preaches came by revelation from Christ, and was not as a direct result of his zealous understanding of the teachings of Judaism. Paul received a gospel to the Gentiles and that is what he taught. Do we add to that at will?

Numbers 18 is historical, part of the SPECIFICS of the Law given by Moses to the children of Israel, to support the priests and Levites in the land of Israel with food. If you want to adopt Numbers 18, surely you should also follow Numbers 19 – ceremonial purification of the priests?

The OT scriptures are the inspired Word of God, able to teach us much about God and the nature of man, but isn’t it yet clear that God does not allow us to pick and choose elements of the OT Law for us to live by, other than what Christ and the apostles spelled out? If we pick all elements of the Law to follow voluntarily, have we still not rebuilt that which has been destroyed? It is this very picking and choosing of OT laws that have caused factions in the church, as ‘doctrines’ other than what Paul taught (to the gentiles) have caused divisions to exist and widen.

Yes, let's understand the spirit of the Law and obey that, but NOT the letter of the Law (the VERY SAME ACTS) - apart from those ones that Jesus/the Apostles command us to obey.

I’ll leave it there for now, but I do have some further responses to make to your other comments.

Janet


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

I understand your concerns, and thanks for trying to patiently reason through issues as you see them. However, it was entirely unnecessary to have assumed particular conclusions into my comments which do not appear in any line of my arguments. This is going to be a comprehensive rejoinder, just so that you understand my persuasions in this matter.

#1. My persuasions about tithing are not predicated upon curses or threats - whether OT or NT. And I am not alone in that persuasion, because I have heard so many pastors and leaders who do not make tithing or any other form of giving to be based on any sort of threats or misgivings.

In very fact, about 2 months ago I stated clearly in this hub that: "The curses of the old covenant may not apply to Christians today, but many of the blessings and promises of the Old Testament do apply (2 Cor. 1:20) - and many believers have come to embrace and proven these things for themselves."

If you had carefully gone through my comments on this hub (as you suggested earlier), I wonder how you would have ever missed that? So, the persuasion for Christians to tithe is not based on threats, even if you might be hearing some others teach to the contrary. I have also heard and read anti-tithers teach that Christians who tithe are going to hell! We both know that is an unspeakable heresy; but it would be as wrong for me to assume that you hold precisely that same view where I have not read any such line to suggest it in your comments so far.

_____

#2. My views on your rent example? Well, please don't take this personal, but it does sound very akin to the anti-tithing argument that giving should be from a "surplus AFTER essential needs are met". That is the blind and legalistic argument from such folks as Russell Kelly; and for me, that outlook is actually bereft of faith and trust in God, and serves as a perfect excuse for many people who are not inclined to give sacrificially. Let me explain.

People who do not understand the grace of God know absolutely nothing about sacrificial giving, so they end up scrubbing "left overs" from 'surplus' to give to God only AFTER their personal desires have been taken care of.

That type of anti-tithing set-up is the very same attitude that we find contrasted in Luke 21:4 between the so-called 'surplus-givers' and the widow who understood sacrificial giving. In that verse, Jesus observed that "all the others contributed to the offering out of their surplus,". . . BUT "she, in her poverty, dropped in everything she had to live on" (ISV). He commended the widow for the very same thing that does not make sense to you!

There are certain believers in the church who also understood sacrificial giving in that context. In 2 Cor. 8:2 Paul spoke of those who, 'in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their EXTREME POVERTY have overflowed in a wealth of GENEROSITY on their part.' (ESV). These folks gave beyond their ability just as the widow did in Luke 21.

In all this, sacrificial giving is not a "REQUIREMENT" upon Christians. Rather than see it as a legalistic exercise foisted upon believers in the fashion of anti-tithing arguments, sacrificial giving springs from the heart of people - both in the OT and NT, and in contemporary times. There is a balance between giving to God and taking care of our needs - but to place our so-called 'needs' before our worship is to present a message contrary to a Biblical understanding of sacrificial giving.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#3. Concerning Romans 15:4, your quote: "Note it says scripture was written for our learning, it does not say for our doing."

My answer: If Scripture was given only for 'learning' without the 'doing', it amounts to deceiving ourselves! James 1:22 says that we should 'keep on being doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves.'

This is why the NT teaching about giving to support God's work in the Church did not spring entirely from nowhere - it is based upon what was written in the OT. In 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, after highlighting the giving structure for ministers in the Law of Moses, the apostle Paul said plainly that the Lord has commanded Christian giving to be done "IN THE SAME WAY" (NIV) or "ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE" (Amplified) as we have learnt from those written about in the OT!

The problem here is that anti-tithers deny this fact on the basis of their legalism. They (I don't mean 'you' personally) are too busy seeking a LITERAL definition and application in the way they read the OT. While we are not called to replicate every detail in the specifics of the particular experiences of OT believers, we are to LEARN sound principles from their lives and DO what those principles present to us.

This is why you probably find my statement surprising that most of what the NT apostles taught as Church doctrines were derived directly from the Law of Moses and the rest of the OT. It is not only on giving and/or tithing, but even in matters concerning marriage and the ministry of Christian women in the Church - see Rom. 7:2; 1 Cor. 7:39 and 14:34 among many others.

Bottomline: all of Scripture (including the Law of Moses and rest of the OT) serves us with a solid foundation for belief and living in the NT. But our 'doing' of the Word should not be legalism springing from LITERALISM.

______

#4. You complained that I missed verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 9.

Well, I was focusing on verses 13-14 of that chapter in direct response to your allusion to the structure of giving in the OT Levitical system. There was no need for the inference about who was "exploiting" who, in so far as I was not encouraging any such issues.

And your argument that Paul did not accept money or financial support from the Corinthians is not true. He actually REQUESTED, RECEIVED and ACCEPTED such support from them - if you pay close attention to the following: I Cor. 16:6 and 2 Cor. 1:16. He also received wages from other churches for the work he did among them (2 Cor. 11:8 and Rom. 15:24). This does not mean that he 'exploited' them in such instances; rather, he did not demand these things by subterfuge.

So many anti-tithers in their mistaken zeal deny that Paul had really wanted workers in the church to receive financial support. Their denial is easily put to rest by reading 1 Timothy 5:17-18 - the "double honour" actually refers to "wages" (from the Greek word 'time?', meaning among other things: 'value, that is, money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables'); and also that "The laborer deserves his wages."

If your concern is that Paul derived his NT teaching for ministers' support directly from the OT, then 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 soundly answers your problems. Your did not argue to the contrary other than evade the fact by complaining about a non-issue of 'exploitation' on verse 12.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#5. Your quote: "Numbers 18 is historical, part of the SPECIFICS of the Law given by Moses to the children of Israel, to support the priests and Levites in the land of Israel with food. If you want to adopt Numbers 18, surely you should also follow Numbers 19 – ceremonial purification of the priests?"

My answer: A Christian can adopt Numbers 18 without seeking a literal application of so-called 'SPECIFICS'. An argument of "SPECIFICS" is what I refer to as legalism in the literalist tradition.

Paul used the OT Law of Moses for teaching support of NT ministers without asking the Christian to adopt the "SPECIFICS" of ceremonial purification and all sorts! (1 Cor. 9:13-14). He also used the Law of Moses to teach other Christian doctrines without asking us to burden ourselves with "SPECIFICS" - see, for example, the Passover - 'let us keep the feast' (1 Cor. 5:7-8), he did not ask for "SPECIFICS", but actually used an OT concept of the 'passover' for Christian living.

When believers read the OT only in the literalist tradition of seeking "SPECIFICS", then it simply amounts to the sort of legalism I have often encountered and discountenanced. To keep this literalist view in the fashion of the anti-tither's argument would only mean an absolute rubbishing of the Christian faith. Why? Because what we claim as 'Christian' or 'new covenant' is based on the promises given to the ISRAEL - both historically and prophetically, without making a case for so-called "SPECIFICS"!

Our use of the OT does not make us Jews under the covenant of Judaism; nor are we asked to apply "SPECIFICS" just because we derive principles from the OT Scriptures for Christian living. Those who want to argue long and hard about "new covenant principles" of giving are simply cheating at the backstage, because there is NOTHING "new" about 'new testament principles' - all such principles are already taught in the Old Testament to Israel. To pretend they are "new" without acknowledging the very fact that they are already taught in the OT is simply dubious.

#6. Your quote: "Yes, let's understand the spirit of the Law and obey that, but NOT the letter of the Law (the VERY SAME ACTS) - apart from those ones that Jesus/the Apostles command us to obey."

My answer: I agree, and you would see that is precisely what I have often maintained - the spirit of the Law spells out the principles derived from EXAMPLES; it does not mean the 'letter of the Law' which is seeking for "SPECIFICS" in a literalist fashion.

Many anti-tithers would argue that they have no problem with Christians giving a 'tenth' of their income - but then they spend all their lives seeking unprofitable arguments of "specifics" in a literal reading of the Old Testament. Tithing for Christians tends to be legalistic if the only thing anti-tithers understand by that term is "farm produce". That is not even the definition of the word 'tithe'.

We can follow the principles and examples of those in the OT by tithing - the giving of a tenth of our resources - without seeking the "SPECIFICS" that we 'MUST' thereby give a tenth of 'farm produce' before we can be said to be tithing! If anti-tithers have agreed that the definition of the term 'tithe' is simply a 'tenth', why do they become so legalistic to re-define that same word as 'farm produce' when in very fact it is not so DEFINED?


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ tymon

#4 Tithing teachers have indeed begun to teach tithing using Gen 14 where Abram tithed to the King of Salem one tenth of the spoils (which belonged anyway to the King of Sodom) which he had retrieved from the other kings when rescuing his nephew Lot.

I believe the reason is that the strong challenge against teaching from Leviticus or Numbers is that makes it is irrefutable that tithing was ‘under Law’ and we are taught by NT Scripture that we are NOT under Law but grace; which led them to have to look elsewhere in support of their doctrine – hence Gen 14.

But how voluntary was Abraham’s actions? According to my research, and what was posted on this thread some time back, tithing of spoils /goods kings or to support sanctuaries was commonplace in antiquity. I include here a section from another blog (not mine) called tektonics:

"Clearly Abraham and Jacob practiced a tithe before the time of the law. There is good reason for this: Tithing was a widespread custom in the Ancient Near East, and it was commonly practiced for the support of kings and sanctuaries.

Sarna (Genesis commentary, 110) offers an example of pagan "tithing" in the Ugaritic (Canaanite) literature; the tithe was paid to a local king. Salstrand [The Tithe, 15] mentions secular examples of the "ten percent rule" in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Greece, and Rome. We even see an example of a "secular" tithe in the OT:

1 Sam. 8:15-17 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants."

Abraham, then still uncircumcised Abram, appears to have been following ancient Arab custom, rather than setting divine precedent.

Also, if Abram had set precedent it would only relate to what to do with spoils of war, as that was the context of the tithe, but in this case the precedent was not adopted by Moses or indeed by Christians. Because although Abram gave 10% to the priest of God Most High, he gave the remaining 90% away! Do any Christians you know give away 100% of their so-called 'increase'?

Also, when matters concerning the treatment of spoils of war was codified in the law, the percentage was entirely different from that given in Numbers 31 (which was 1% or less), so again, no biblical precedent can be derived from Gen 14 for the conduct of Christians vis-à-vis tithing from regular income.

More later


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Let me expound on the last point above on the 'spirit of the Law' in contrast to the 'letter'.

It is by the 'spirit of the Law' and not the 'letter' that we understand the value of circumcision, sabbath, passover, etc. in the NT. While some argue that circumcision has no place in the Church, we find indeed that the apostle Paul affirms its real value for us in Rom. 2:29 - "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter"; which is why he says elsewhere that "we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Php. 3:3).

The NT is not against the real value of circumcision, for it is not in the "SPECIFICS" of outward flesh that we find the value, but rather in its role in the heart and spirit of a believer (see also Deut. 30:6). This does not mean that I'm asking Christians to be circumcised in the fashion of circumcision in Judaism; but I argue that no informed Christian can maintain that 'circumcision' is unbiblical in the new covenant - unless such folks want to live in denial of Romans 2:29 and Deut. 30:6.

_____

What about the sabbath? The OT gives us the "specifics" as including an observance on the 'seventh day' with dire consequences among the Jews (Exo. 16:29 and 31:14). Most anti-tithers who argue in the literalist tradition would patently deny a sabbath for the NT, saying that 'only that which is repeated in the NT' is for the Christian. But when I remind them that Hebrews 4:9 clearly says that "there REMAINS, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God", these anti-tithers really have nothing to say to the contrary.

Pointing out the relevance of Hebrews 4:9 does not make me an SDA (seventh-day adventist) - no, I'm not. But even then, without a doubt, while the 'sabbath' is derived from Judaism, for the Christian it is NOT an observance on a 'seventh day' with the 'specifics' of Judaism.

Hebrews 4:8 speaks of "another day" quite different from the 'seventh day'; but then the whole point of the sabbath for the Christian is in verse 10 - "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his" (KJV). What then? 'Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,' verse 11.

In contrast, while the sabbath of Judaism teaches a rest WITHOUT 'labour'; the sabbath in the new covenant teaches that we enter God's rest by 'labour'. Yet, in both instances, there remains a SABBATH - the difference is that they are not in the same 'specifics'.

The same thing applies to the 'passover'. It is a Jewish concept, predicated upon stipulated 'specifics' to the Jews (Exo. 12:11, 43, 48, etc.). Yet, in the NT when the apostle says 'let us keep the feast', he used the same Jewish concept of the 'passover' without asking us to be burdened with "specifics" in a literalist fashion (2 Cor. 5:7-8).

_____

You see, the literalist tradition of arguing for "specifics" simply does not allign with the 'spirit of the Law'. If a Christian chooses voluntarily to tithe, it does not mean that his or her tithes have to be in the 'specifics' of farm produce and all the paraphernalia and appendages of Judaism.

The word 'tithe' simply means a 'tenth'. If anti-tithers have a problem with their 'specifics' in the tithes, then they should apply the same concerns to such issues as the circumcision, the sabbath, the passover, marriage, women in the Church, etc. by seeking so-called "specifics" of the OT in a literal fashion - otherwise all their arguments are just simply hollow and inconsistent. It is shoddy hermeneutics for anti-tithers to argue that 'only that which is repeated (or "carried over") from the OT is for the Christian' while at the same time condemning the OT. At best, such kind of scholarship is for cheats who often find no substance in their own arguments when closely examined.

Thanks again, Janet. I hope you see from the foregoing why I do not pander to the anti-tithers' attitude of seeking literalism in the reading of the OT. Yes, a Christian can use examples of the OT - including tithing - in just the same way as the apostle Paul used the Law of Moses for Christian doctrines without seeking 'specifics' in a legalistic fashion. By using the OT, we do not try to rebuild the Law as you argued; but you cannot deny the fact that many of the Christian doctrines which even you espouse are derived directly from the same Law of Moses without the 'specifics' of Judaism.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Very quickly, let me address your recent concerns.

Your quote: "#4 Tithing teachers have indeed begun to teach tithing using Gen 14 where Abram tithed to the King of Salem one tenth of the spoils (which belonged anyway to the King of Sodom)". . . etc., etc., etc.

My answer: And just what is wrong with using Genesis 14? I think those who complain about the use of the OT for Christian doctrne and beliefs are being simply disingenous at best.

First, the NT does not forbid the use of the OT as Scripture for Christian beliief and practice. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 declares that 'ALL SCRIPTURE' is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness - that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (KJV).

If 'ALL SCRIPTURE' excludes the use of the OT - including Genesis 14 - of what value would be the teaching that those things which were written in the OT are for our learning and obedience (Romans 15:4)?

Of what value would be Paul's use of the Law of Moses to teach Christians about their support of NT ministers (1 Corinthians 9:13-14)?

Of what value would be Paul's use of Abraham's life in Genesis to teach us about 'faith', 'righteousness', etc (Romans 4)?

This complaint about using Genesis or Malachi or any other OT verse is simply hypocritical in anti-tithing arguments. While denying the legitimacy of the OT Scriptures for Christian practical living, they would very quickly welcome and encourage the same OT which they condemn when it comes to other aspects they find easy enough to pretend to hold.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your question: "But how voluntary was Abraham’s actions?"

My answer: Abraham's actions were ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY and not based on any arguments derived from anti-tithing misgivings.

Much as one would refer to anti-tithing sentimentalism from such sites as tektonics, it simply does not bear any exegetical weight. If you look elsewhere to those who do sound hermeneutics in expounding Genesis 14, you will find cogent reasons as to why they resolve that Abraham's actions in his tithes to Melchizedek were entirely voluntary.

Here is a simple outline from another site called givingtithes: 'If then it was merely a matter of obeying local customs, then Melchizedek would rather not have been better qualified than would have been the ruler of Hebron at the time for Abraham’s tithes. This only shows that being a ‘king’ of one of the cities in that region was not enough to have qualified the recipient to receive tithes.'

"It is obvious that Salem had no jurisdiction over Abraham, for he dwelt in Mamre, which is Hebron (Gen. 13:18). Hebron is not the same place as Salem, and each city would have had their own kings or ruler with independent jurisdiction (cf. Josh. 12:10).

Salem had no political control over Hebron where Abraham lived, and it is therefore obvious that the patriarch was not obligated in any way to have given tithes to Melchizedek. There was no political connection between these two towering Biblical characters prior to the conquest which would have obligated Abraham to this priest king. It therefore means that something far more than mere kingship would have been on the patriarch’s mind."

But more to the Biblical fact is the consideration of Melchizedek’s greatness:

"The NT in Hebrews 7:4 brings this point all the more to our attention in asking us to “consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.” Was it merely upon the basis of being ‘king of Salem’ that qualified Melchizedek for Abraham’s tithes?

More than being Salem’s king, Melchizedek was attested the priest of the most high God (Gen. 14:18). It was this priesthood that moved Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek upon the blesssing pronounced by the priest-king (verse 20)."

So, you see that Abraham was not moved by pagan customs and all sorts of arguments of tektonics etc. He was moved rather by the priesthood of Melchizedek, just as we find in the Bible.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your quote: "Abraham, then still uncircumcised Abram, appears to have been following ancient Arab custom, rather than setting divine precedent."

My answer: Abraham's circumcision has nothing to do with his encounter with the priest of God, or with his receiving God's promises.

Long before Abraham's circumcision, God had already given him the promises to bless him greatly (Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing", etc, etc.). Abraham was still carrying these promises even when he encountered Melchizedek in Genesis 14 and yet BEFORE his circumcision. The NT makes clear that Abraham received the sign of circumcision "as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith WHILE HE WAS STILL UNCIRCUMCISED" - in other words, Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness LONG BEFORE he became circumcised (Romans 4:9-11).

I do not see the legitimacy of anti-tithers arguing tithes in connection with Abraham's being "still uncircumcised" or having been circumcised. If he were already circumcised before he met Melchizedek, how would that circumcision have influenced or affected his tithes to the priest of God?

However, as I have shown already, Scripture does not show us that Abraham was following ancient Arab customs. If his tithes were predicated on such Arab customs, then Melchizedek would not have been the qualified king to receive tithes from Abraham. The Bible's answer to the question here is that Abraham was moved by Mechizedek being the priest of God.

As regards whether or not Abraham was setting a precedent of tithing, we know that the tithing in the Levitical system did not emerge from thin air! Indeed, Hebrews 7:9 shows that Abarahm's tithing to Melchizedek had such a powerful precedent on his yet unborn progeny, so that it is said that 'Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.'

People who refuse to carefully consider Scripture are too busy looking to outside sources to help them conclude that Abraham's tithes were 'pagan tithes' - because they have first come to the erroneous conclusion that Melchizedek was a 'pagan priest' in direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches! To therefore hold to the erratic idea that Melchizedek was a pagan priest is the foundation for denying that Abraham's tithes were in fact a precedence of the Levitical tithes - as Hebrews 7:9 clearly demonstrates.

This does not mean that we should therefore seek legalistic 'specifics' between Abraham's tithes and the Levitical tithes. The point is that the Hebrew word used in both instances for 'tithes' are the exact same, even though they do not contain the exact same contents. Just because they do not contain the exact same contents does not mean therefore that tithes are 'only food' as anti-tithers often argue and draw unfounded conclusions for paganism in Abraham's tithes.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

It would take me a quite a while to properly respond to all that you have posed, so for now I will make just a few brief comments, from the heart and largely unreferenced.

Firstly, agreed, Apostle Paul was 'sent on his journey' from the support of those he visited or stayed with - the church, as usually meaning believers who met from house to house. Does the scripture mention that they tithed support to him? No, it does not.

1 Cor 9 says (NKJV): 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void.

Paul mentions eating of the holy things and partaking of the offerings of the altar.

A minister of the gospel should be supported, if possible, by the church, so that he can eat and live in order to minister, but does this scripture specifically mention tithing? No. And does Paul say tithes should be given to him as a minister of the gospel? No, he does not.

Tymon, which ever way you slice the cake, Christians are not explicitly taught to tithe of earnings, increase, surplus or any such thing - we are taught to give freely and with liberality, and also, sacrificially. Basing our giving to labourers in the kingdom, on OT doctrines is okay in theory, in order to show how God's system was instituted for the Hebrews, but...just as you mention circumcision of the flesh versus of the heart, spirit versus natural; passover - a lamb of the flock every year versus the Lamb of God, a sacrifice once for all...surely you can concede that care ought to be taken in how we apply OT teachings so as not to replicate the things of old literally if it is not meant to be so?

Finally, you didn't really address the rent example. Let's say, a person has been giving sacrificially from his poverty and asks God to supply him with finance to pay his rent - which God does. Then what? Does he tithe from it and have insufficient to pay for what he has been praying for, or does he pay his rent and give thanks to God?

Increase in OT tithing was very clearly taught as being from the hand of God, not the labour of man. Seed may be sown, (man's labour) but God causes the increase. Mammals may mate, but God causes the womb to bear offspring. Earnings from our labour do not bear much resemblance to biblical tithes.

If you had 10 male and 10 female goats and each paired and produced 10 kids - the 10th animal to pass under the rod would be 'tithed'. Thus of the 30 goats you had, one would be tithed. If one of the pairs did not mate/produce offspring, thus of the 20 goats only 9 kids were born - you would not tithe as their was no 'tenth' animal passing under the rod; you keep all 9 until your prosperity is greater.

The farmers thus never decrease, but increase as God prospers them.

A better analogy to tithing would be to view it similar to investments. We invest a sum and the return may be 1%, 5%, 10%, whatever. To parallel tithing we might then give a tenth of our increase to God. But would we be expected to tithe from the original investment? no, that would be akin to tithing the lambs and not the kids and bring decrease rather than increase.

Over the years, I have trusted God with my finance in times of need and in times of plenty. I have given from my income, my increase, my lack, my heart - you name it. I have tithed and owed tithed and throughout it all, the Holy Spirit within me has burdened me to read up on the offerings made in the Levitical offering structure and I have seen that what we call Christian tithing only resembles OT tithing in the matter of it being 'one tenth' - the rest is a great divergence from how the tithe worked in practice and even though you may not have much to to with those who abuse tithing scriptures, many have been hurt by the way tithing has been taught.

Tymon, we could go round and round in circles and never come to any agreement on this.

I believe that if tithing is to be taught to Christians then it should be taught more precisely as a giving system under the law of the tenth part of 'food' and that believers can choose to give a tenth part of earnings/profits/increase to support the work of the ministry if they purpose in their heart to do so.

Also Christians should be taught that tithing was an ancient custom, which even Abram did at least once (though he gave away all his 'increase') and that Jacob vowed to do IF God would prosper him in his way (we are not told that Jacob kept that vow).

We should also be taught that giving should be freewill, as the believer purposes and as he has means - even though it be a sacrifice (beyond means) sometimes.

In my opinion, 'anti-tither' are simply seeking to set the record straight and counter-argue the 'tithing doctrine' which is not fully supported by scripture.

So...I do't really have much more to say than that. (Maybe another time!)

Janet


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

A final thought. Imagine if you will that someone works for the church and is told that his expenses will be covered and given a breakdown of what his monthly expenses will be:

£400 for rent

£200 for gas/elec

£150 for catering subsistence

£150 for cleaning and housekeeping

£50 for phone

£50 for personal stipend

£1000 Total

For whatever reason, the church give him this money in his hand to pay his expenses himself.

Should the church worker therefore tithe £100 and be short his phone bill and have no money for himself at all? Or should he meet all his commitments (as expected by the church who is giving the money to him for that very purpose) and pay £5 tithe from his personal stipend?

There is a huge difference between these sums and yet the former is what is being taught by tithing teachers, and many believers are in debt, anxious and struggling as a result of this. Hoping that God will 'come through' after they pay the tithe so that they can clear debts caused by said tithing.

This is an example that I have in fact lived, having worked for the church and struggled to tithe before essential needs are met. I would often had to pay my expenses as they fell due and suffer the anxiety of falling behind with my 'voluntary' tithe, as giving as I had means was 'pooh-poohed' by some as stingy and faithless.

Should I expect God to meet my needs for shelter, food and clothing, or not? And if He does meet those needs, should I give it away to another, fall into debt and then cry out for more, so God can bail me out?

Any comment?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Much we can agree on. But on the whole, I've made absolutely clear that my views are not inclined to the legalism of anti-tithers in their literalist manner of interpreting the Bible.

1. There is no verse in the Bible - OT or NT - that condemns tithing in itself. Rather, the NT uses the same OT principle of systematic giving in support ministers as we find in 1 Cor. 9:13-14. That much is clear, and I have not seen you actually deny its veracity other than repeatedly arguing away from that very fact.

____

2. My views are not about replicating OT teachings in a LITERAL manner as you argue for. This is why I've stated simply that there is absolutely nothing wrong with Christians who choose to tithe even though they draw from the example of the OT for doing so. In just the same manner, no anti-tither can deny the fact that the apostles taught NT doctrines of giving directly from the principles we find in the OT, particularly from the Law of Moses without asking us to "replicate" issues in a literal manner in the fashion argued by anti-tithers.

____

3. There is absolutely nothing "new" about the so-called 'new testament principles' of giving - they are all already taught and well-known among the OT saints. This is why you are missing the huge point here by making excuses for anti-tithers that they are only seeking to set the record straight. NO, THEY ARE NOT! At least, we both agree that "believers can choose to give a tenth part of earnings/profits/increase to support the work of the ministry if they purpose in their heart to do so" - but that is NOTHING in semblance from the typical anti-tither whose argument is that there is NO PLACE in the Church for tithing!

____

4. As concerning tithing from one's increase, your said: "Increase in OT tithing was very clearly taught as being from the hand of God, not the labour of man."

I beg to disagree on that. The Bible clearly states that the tithes (and in fact all other expressions of giving) was from MAN'S INCREASE. It never once said that the tithes was from 'God's increase'. Let's read it together -

(a) "thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of THINE INCREASE the same year" (Deut. 14:28);

(b) "because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all THINE INCREASE, and in all the WORKS of THINE HANDS" (Deut. 16:15)

(c) "When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of THINE INCREASE the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled" (Deut. 26:12).

Janet, what do you understand by "THINE INCREASE" - does it refer to God's increase or rather to the people's increase? How would it be referring to God's increase when it is God speaking to them and saying "THINE INCREASE" instead of "mine increase"?

I understand your concern here is about giving to God from His blessings in our lives. Yes, that is true and is also taught in the NT - what do we really have that we did not receive? and if we received it, why then would we boast as if we not receive it? (1 Cor. 4:7). All the things we have received in blessing come from God, and we cannot truly say that we have a blessing apart from Him who richly provides us with everything to enjoy (1 Tim. 6:17).

However, even though we receive God's blessings we are to give from that which results from OUR labour - this is why Israel gave from their own increase ("thine increase"), and no sound Christian would argue otherwise to deny the fact that it was speaking about man's labour. God is not going to come down and labour for us - rather, He blesses our labour and the works of our hands (Deut. 16:15) - and that is why giving has always been from man's labour.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

With regards to your final thoughts on the case of a church worker, I do not suppose that the support from any church dispenses with or negates the personal responsibility of earning a living for additional income. In fact, that would be contrary to what is taught in Scripture in both the OT and NT.

In the NT, we find that those who receive support for their work in their local churches would also work with their own hands to provide for their necessities (see, for example, Titus 3:14 and 2 Thes. 3:8). This ensures that there is no reason for us to fall into personal debts on account of receiving insufficient support from the churches where we serve or work.

The issue of falling into debt is much more involved than what is being preached by tithing teachers of anti-tithing campaigners. One cannot therefore blame their debts on tithing in just the same way that anti-tithing arguments do not resolve debts for anyone. If we understand and apply the basic principles of sound stewardship in our lives, debts would not be such a huge problem - and the question of giving a tenth or more from our resources would simply be a non-issue.

Giving responsibly from our income or resources does not mean we deny ourselves of our personal responsibilities in life. It simply means, among other things, that we manage our resources responsibly - including "working with our own hands" so that we may have something to give to others (Ephesians 4:28), rather than relying only on stipends or support from the local church and risking falling into debts.

Just a thought - by no means should that translate as the authoritative 'law' for any Christian. :)

Thanks again for discussing.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

If you look at Deut. 14:22-27 and compare it to how we, in the United States, celebrate Thanksgiving every year, I guess we could say we are tithing since we don't have to be legalistic about it.

Similarities between the tithe commanded by God in Deuteronomy 14:22-27 and how we celebrate Thanksgiving today:

1. The Israelites were commanded to take the tithe to the Temple where the Spirit of God lived so they could eat before the Lord. We, out of love and thanks, bring food and gather with our family and friends to eat before the Lord (as the Spirit now dwells in our bodies).

2. The purpose of the commandment was to rever the Lord and rejoice. The purpose of our gathering is to give thanks to the Lord and rejoice.

Although the tenth is not a part of our celebration, the purpose is very similar.

This Thanksgiving celebration is closer in similarities to God's tithing commands than taking a tenth of one's income to the church, yet we don't try to confuse everyone by calling it tithing. Nor do we pretend that we are tithing.

People like Tymon are pretenders. They pretend they are doing something Biblical. Tymon just doesn't understand that calling giving a tenth of one's income to the church "tithing" does nothing but confuse church goers who are taught Malachi 3, etc. He just doesn't understand the problem at all. He is correct that anyone can call giving a tenth of their income to the church "tithing" is they wish to, and that calling it "tithing" is not necessarily incorrect, but he doesn't understand the implications in doing so and therefore it is a waste of time debating with him.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

Your quote: 1. There is no verse in the Bible - OT or NT - that condemns tithing in itself. Rather, the NT uses the same OT principle of systematic giving in support ministers as we find in 1 Cor. 9:13-14. That much is clear, and I have not seen you actually deny its veracity other than repeatedly arguing away from that very fact.

Excuse me? 1 Cor 9:13-14 mentions neither systematic giving nor tithing. The quote about muzzling an ox is from Deut 25:4 which Paul again mentions in 1 Tim 5:18, and simply tells us that ‘the labourer is worthy of his reward, especially those who labour in word and doctrine.’

Why this fixation on support of ministers to be a regular ten per cent and called tithing?

Why shouldn’t this support of ministers be as the Lord leads and according to one’s means?

Who tells us this support must be a ‘tithe’?

No-one.

Oh, excuse, me, pro-tithers do. Where did they get the idea? They took it wholesale from the OT Law, though Paul didn’t think it necessary.

How simple would it have been for Paul, in the many places he mentioned giving to command us to ‘tithe.’ But not once did he do so.

God ordained Christians to support workers in the ministry field and that should not only be pastors of churches and God did not ordain that such support be a tenth of one’s gross salary, did He?

________________

Re your quote 4:

(a) "thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of THINE INCREASE the same year" (Deut. 14:28);

(b) "because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all THINE INCREASE, and in all the WORKS of THINE HANDS" (Deut. 16:15)

I don’t think you are unaware that it was God who caused the people to have increase.

The point I was making is that the tithe didn’t come solely from man’s efforts, say in crafts, metalwork, tent-building, ship-building etc. – but rather from that which only God can cause to prosper by opening the womb, providing sun and rain for irrigation.

‘Thine increase’ was not by the power of ‘thine own hands’ but rather directly from God’s providence. The farmers toiled but all would be in vain unless God caused the increase.

Plus, did you read carefully Deut 14:22-28 which demonstrates clearly that the ‘Levitical’ tithe is food, food and only food? In my statements in earlier posts, I never call giving ten per cent of earnings ‘a tithe’ because it is too dissimilar to the OT model.

As Gary posted many moons ago, ‘a tenth part of what?’ is the all-important question.

We have no biblical precedent relating ‘a tenth part’ to monetary earnings, hence the gross/net/surplus debates.

And where do we look to for answers???

You won’t find answers in Scripture, so man just has to make something up!

And it has caused a huge mess, ‘hindered the gospel’ (which Paul sought to avoid and would rather die than boast (of the gospel) in vain) and has been taught in a legalistic and judgmental way by an ever-increasing number of ‘teachers’ in the body of Christ, many of whom see 'tithing' - to them - as an excellent way to fleece the flock for personal gain. Doesn’t that bother you at all? Well, it does bother me.

_______________

Your quote: With regards to your final thoughts on the case of a church worker, I do not suppose that the support from any church dispenses with or negates the personal responsibility of earning a living for additional income.

Is this really your answer?

What a cop-out.

Please can you answer the question posed?

Should this person ‘tithe’ 10% of his total ‘earnings’ and give £100 and be in debt, or should he voluntarily ‘tithe’ from that which remains after ‘responsibly stewarding’ money to settle his commitments, thus giving 10% of £50 = £5?

The question did not posit time or ability to earn extra income, so this is irrelevant to my question.

The answer to this question is of huge importance to assist those who seek to ‘tithe’ but still be ‘responsible stewards’ of their current level of finance.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

You are so right, Janet, when you say, "And it has caused a huge mess, ‘hindered the gospel’..."


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I have not compared Israel's tithing or any other type of giving in the Christian Church to American Thanksgiving festivities. If that is what you want to do, you're very free to do as you may - but then, why does this discussion have to involve your bedevilled attitude of always seeking to be so uncouth in your language when addressing my comments? :)

I've often appealed to you to either face simple issues and address them without the slobbers or focusing on personalities. But when you have had nothing to say that's of substance, it shouldn't surprise anyone that you would resort to the antics of cowardly drop-outs in your usual 'ad hominem' fallacies.

It's been just about 6 months ago I asked you some very simple questions about your approach to interpreting Scripture after you made several convoluted assertions -

(1) What exegetical principle did you show in your argument?

(2) Where did you compare scripture with scripture in your arguments?

(3) What external source did you use for your argument to show that spoils DID NOT belong to victors by right of conquest?

(4) Which one of your cited dictionaries denied that spoils belonged to victors?

(5) Which verse in Scripture tells you that spoils did not belong to victors?

(6) What have you said about ANY of the verses that show indeed the FACT that spoils ALWAYS belonged to the victors by right of conquest?

(7) What have you said about Deuteronomy 20:14; Numbers 31:53; 1 Samuel 30:20, etc?

(8) What have you said about the scholarly work of Hugo Grotius that I cited for you?

Now, for someone like you who have been claiming a 'Doctor of Divinity' (D.D.) as part of your Christian "EDUCATION", you certainly should have had no problems at all answering those 8 elementary questions - but after several months now, we are still awaiting your answers! That was when I suspected your claim of the 'D.D.' theological degree was a sham, which I consequently challenged that claim recently on the 'nairaland' forum.

If you can have the conscience to deceive the public for so long with such a dubious claim to a 'D.D.' as part of your christian "EDUCATION", wouldn't it be awesome to laugh off your comedy of coming through the backdoor to accuse me of being a "pretender"? Where have I made claims to warrant such accusations from you, when in fact YOU of all people have been parading yourself for so long in such underhanded manner?

Gary Arnold, to be honest with you, I have found so many anti-tithers to be nothing but liars without a conscience. This is why it doesn't surprise me anymore that you guys will no longer engage in discussions to address issues without resorting to false accusations without substance.

PS: I'm glad that challenge force you to review your dubious claims to have a D.D. - you simply had no choice, though. When I find you can address issues, I'll gladly engage.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Actually there's not much substance in your rejonders to my previous comments other than your being unnecessarily reactive. I would indeed have expected you would delve into the issues some more, but no worries if you could not.

#1. Your quote: "Excuse me? 1 Cor 9:13-14 mentions neither systematic giving nor tithing. The quote about muzzling an ox is from Deut 25:4 which Paul again mentions in 1 Tim 5:18, and simply tells us that ‘the labourer is worthy of his reward, especially those who labour in word and doctrine.’"

My answer: It is true 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 does not spell out 'systematic giving' in A-B-C fashion - but that doesn't in itself deny the fact that systematic giving is taught in BOTH the OT and NT, as all informed Christians who study their Bibles know for certainty.

You really do not have to wait until you see 'systematic giving' spelt-out in those verses in capital letters before you got the gist of my previous comments. Looking for those terms to be spelt out in A-B-C would be just as much in the same fallacy of an anti-tithing literalist who waits to find any other teaching in a passage of Scripture which is not spelt by name.

For example, we know that Jesus did not once use the word "GRACE" in any of His teaching in the Gospels - but is that enough to say that He taught nothing of 'grace' just because He did not once use that word?

Or, take another example: "freewill" - this is a much-loved cliché by anti-tithers; but has it ever once occured to you that "freewill" is NEVER ONCE used in the entire New Testament? Just yesterday even YOU used the word "freewill" in one of your rejoinders when you said - "We should also be taught that giving should be freewill" - but you didn't cough and had no qualms whatsoever in using that word which you will not find ANYWHERE in the NT, did you? Nor did you realise that the word "freewill" is also 'Old Testament' and is used in the offerings of Israel in reference to animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses ("a freewill offering in beeves or sheep" - Lev. 22:21, KJV)??

The anti-tithers' complaint and whinging about not finding a particular word or term in a verse really doesn't amount to much. If we wait only when a word is spelt out before we know that it is being taught in that passage, then indeed there are many things we would all have to cut off from our Christian doctrines.

Systematic giving is taught in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, and sound theologians have had no problems recognizing its veracity.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#2. Your quote: "Why this fixation on support of ministers to be a regular ten per cent and called tithing?"

My answer: I nowere claimed a "fixation" on a regular ten percent, much less did I ever make any claim anywhere that tithing should be the only or most important expression of a Christian's giving.

Infact, among several things I've maintained consistently are that -

(a) "I have consistently maintained that all forms and expressions of giving for Christians should be VOLUNTARY rather than by coercion or compulsion."

(b) "Indeed, I don't go around haranguing people to bend to a particular anti-tithing dogma, because I recognize the fact that the Holy Spirit leads each believer in ways bigger than any man's argument!"

(c) "Many Christians have been led to tithe, with God's blessings attending their faith and obedience; and that is why I leave it up to others to decide whether or not they want to express their giving through tithing OR IN OTHER WAYS." (about 6 weeks ago)

Particularly the last part of my quote in (c) above - "giving through tithing OR IN OTHER WAYS" - surely does not sound like being a "fixation" on tithing or another one particular mode of giving, does it? So, what's with all the unnecessary assumptions being made in your comments about what I did not argue for?

_______

#3. Your quote: "Why shouldn’t this support of ministers be as the Lord leads and according to one’s means?"

My answer: Has it ever occured to you that many tithers recognize the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives as well as in the lives of other Christians? Do you for one moment assume that Christians cannot be led to express their giving in any way other than what anti-tithers argue and assert, even though we have found most anti-tithers to be unsound (besides being outright liars) in their claims?

On my part, let me remind you about what I have said in one of my comments about 6 weeks ago (note the emphasis):

"Indeed, I don't go around haranguing people to bend to a particular anti-tithing dogma, BECAUSE I RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS EACH BELIEVER IN WAYS BIGGER THAN ANY MAN'S ARGUMENT! Many Christians have been led to tithe, with God's blessings attending their faith and obedience; AND THAT IS WHY I LEAVE IT TO OTHERS To DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT they want to express their giving through tithing OR IN OTHER WAYS."

Dear Janet, I can understand you probably may not know that not all who favour the expression of tithing are cut out the way you assume. Many tithers actually know the leading of the Spirit in their lives, regardless what you may have read or heard in other places. I also have heard and read very fallacious and dubious claims being made by many other anti-tithers - but it would be wrong of me to then assume that their false claims automatically transfers to you and all other anti-tithers!

In retrospect, do YOU recognize the fact that many people who express their giving through tithing AND other ways are indeed led by the Spirit of the Lord? Do YOU? If you're not willing to acknowledge God's leading in their lives, what would that say about your outlook in dealing with other Christians?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#4. Your quote: "Who tells us this support must be a ‘tithe’?"

My answer: I don't know who tells you whatever you are arguing for; but I do not that I have never told anyone that support for ministers "MUST" be a 'tithe'.

If anything, I have consistently maintained that a Christian's giving is or should be voluntary - even if that giving is expressed in the form of 'freewill offerings' (a term never onced used in the NT), tithing (the giving of a tenth of one's resources), fellowships, donations, contributions, alms, etc.

Hence, if a Christian chooses that they do not want to give anything at all, in my view such Christians should not be compelled or forced in any way to give against they will.

On the other hand, if otherChristians choose to express their giving in the form of tithing and other ways, they are absolutely free to do so in their chosen commitment to God.

It is wholly diabolical for anti-tithers to then campaign against Christians giving in a particular way when we know that anti-tithing campaigns have never once inspired or encouraged better giving among believers!

I think on the whole, your rejoinders have only assumed some narrow considerations from your personal experience - which is okay for you, but fail to consider the fact that there are many more tithers who do not make cut-and-dried rules about your assumptions.

_____

#5. Your quote: "How simple would it have been for Paul, in the many places he mentioned giving to command us to ‘tithe.’ But not once did he do so."

My answer: mere excuses. If Paul wanted so much to condemn tithing as an expression of giving, would he not have so openly done so as he attacked the Jewish circumcision in the flesh? Or, as he attacked the Jewish 'sabbath' of a seventh-day observance; etc?

The fact is, while Paul did not once condemn the act of giving a tenth of one's resources, anti-tithers grasp at straws to yell that he did so! What a big laugh indeed! :)

In my view, Paul did not restrict Christian giving to just one form or expression of giving - which is why he used the Law of Moses in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 to address support for NT ministers. If it was entirely heretical to use the Law of Moses to teach "new covenant principles" of giving, why then did Paul not find other avenues of establishing his teaching? Why would he have had to resort to the same Law of Moses that anti-tithers condemn wholesale for this most important subject and then declare: "IN THE SAME MANNER, the Lord has COMMANDED" such in the NT?

What you could have argued for is that Paul had every opportunity to condemn the giving of a tenth of one's resources right there in his epistle to the Corinthians - but NO! He did NOT! He had every opportunity to condemn the giving of a tenth as heretical doctrine from the Jews (as anti-tithers asssume) - but he did not.

So, if your problem was about what Paul would have "commanded", you have your answer in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. In fact, it was not Paul's commandment, but rather the commandment of the Lord. What Paul rather argued for was that this matter of giving is not to be done by subterfuge or coercion - but by no means did he condemn anyone for expressing their giving as a tenth of their resources if they chose to do so.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#6. Your quote: "God ordained Christians to support workers in the ministry field and that should not only be pastors of churches and God did not ordain that such support be a tenth of one’s gross salary, did He?"

My answer: If you have such a huge problem with support for ministers/workers, why were you complaining about how much YOU received as stipend in your own experience at the church where you worked? Just curious.

Anyways, without arguing for whether giving should be from one's net or gross income, my view has always been - let it be done VOLUNTARILY. Giving voluntarily, in my view, does not have to rest heavily on whether it is from one's gross or net income - whether that giving is through tithes, offerings, contributions or fellowships, etc.

_____

#7. Your quote: "I don’t think you are unaware that it was God who caused the people to have increase." etc., etc.

My answer: I think I've explained in detail what was involved in "thine increase". However you want to slice it, it does not amount in any way to "God's increase". There is no verse that says giving or tithes was to be from 'God's increase' - and the only folks claiming it was from 'God's increase' are those who have made up their minds to ignore the simple statement of Scripture in the same as they forever denied that the word used for Abraham's gifts to melchizedek is called 'TITHES'.

There really is no need to go all over the same anti-tithing gambit of turning "thine increase" to translate as 'God's increase'.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon said, "The anti-tithers' complaint and whinging about not finding a particular word or term in a verse really doesn't amount to much. If we wait only when a word is spelt out before we know that it is being taught in that passage, then indeed there are many things we would all have to cut off from our Christian doctrines."

Was it not YOU who complained whined about me using the word ASSET? Just because the word asset doesn't appear in the KJV doesn't mean that the Biblical tithe did not come from assets.

You condemn those against tithing for doing exactly what you do. You doubletalk, Tymon.

As far as me not answering your questions, I have done so previously and not going to go through it all again.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

#8. Your quote: "Plus, did you read carefully Deut 14:22-28 which demonstrates clearly that the ‘Levitical’ tithe is food, food and only food? In my statements in earlier posts, I never call giving ten per cent of earnings ‘a tithe’ because it is too dissimilar to the OT model."

My answer: Yes, I knew what the Levitical tithes was about. But when Paul spoke about Christian giving in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, was he so pendatic as to ask that "food, food and only food" was to constitute our giving even though he mentioned 'food' in verse 13? Here is what he said:

verse 13 - "those who are employed in the temple service get their FOOD from the temple" and "those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?" (quotes from ESV)

And what did he conclude?

verse 14 - "IN THE SAME WAY, the Lord COMMANDED that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

Now Janet, by the expression "IN THE SAME WAY",was Paul saying that Christian giving should be "food, food and only food" since anti-tithers argue for "only food" when they read the Old Testament?

This literalism often featuring in the anti-tithing dialogue is what weaknens their arguments in Biblical hermeneutics.

Now, let's get a little practical with your argument by applying the very same conclusion of "food, food and only food" to your experience. Even though we find "food" in the OT, by using the principles from the OT Law which Paul undoubtedly referred to in 1 Corinthians 9, does that amount to "only food" in Christian giving? If you argue with a loud 'yes', why then did YOU receive MONEY in your own case?!?

Why did you NOT complain that they gave YOU money and should instead have given YOU "food, food and only food"?? Why, in fact, did you not just stick to "ONLY FOOD" since it is obvious that Paul was referencing the Levitical system in the Law of Moses in his teaching in 1 Corinthians 9? Did Paul argue for 'MONEY' in that passage when he referred to the Law of Moses in his teaching? If not, why then did YOU of all people receive money and not rather "food, food and only food"??

You see, when anti-tithers begin to pursue "SPECIFICS" in their mistaken literalism, they often forget that they are self-contraditory in their real-life experiences. This is precisely what has happened in your case, and it is one among several reasons why I consequently abandoned the anti-tithing camp.

Should I say this simply to you: From henceforth, whenever YOU read 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and realise that Paul was infact referring to the law of Moses, it would only be fair to ask YOU to reject MONEY and stick to "FOOD, FOOD and ONLY FOOD" as you have so eloquently argued from Deuteronomy in the Levitical system. Paul was indeed referring to the Levitical system, and it is since you argued for "food, food and only food", then stick to "only food".

Furthermore, from the "food, food and only food" that you receive henceforth, you do the following -

- you pay your rent

- you pay your gas/elec bills

- you also pay your 'catering subsistence'

- and pay your phone with "only food"

- the rest of the "food, food and only food", use for your "personal stipend".

You get the gist by now, don't you?

Since it is impossible in the typical anti--tithers' view to argue for MONEY or financial giving when Paul referred to the Levitical system in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, then it only makes sense that the very least that is expected of YOU is to be CONSISTENT and stick to "food, food and only food". To receive money instead of "food" would quite simply make your arguments untenable.

Enjoy! :))


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

It's nice to see you so cowardly hide behind the scenes to yap some more. Nice.

But yes, I pointed out that the Bible does not once use the word 'asset' for tithes, because doing so would be a fallacy. You tried to dribble your excuses by claiming that the word 'asset' was not yet in use during the time of the KJV translation - but when I pointed out that it was already in use almost a century before, you didn't cough to counter that answer, did you?

I also explained why several other translations used the word 'INCOME' for the hebrew 'tebuah', and for all that, you could not provide just one case for your fallacious claim for asset. You know why? Because again, you would be caught deceiving the public in just the same manner you have long deceived the gullible with a false claim to your D.D.

Why is it that you NEVER once tried to show any verse or source for your "asset" in your beloeved KJV even though I showed you several other sources - both in translation and Biblical exegesis?

I do not go about claiming to be a D.D. theologian - no, I'm not. But if you can deceive yourself and your lot with such duplicity, we know what is left of piffling.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "As far as me not answering your questions, I have done so previously and not going to go through it all again."

Only one request: please show me your answers - quotes, dates, comments - anything would do. Outline the questions and point me to your answers - that would be more gentlemanly, thanks.

I've gotten used to your claims to have answered questions when in fact you never once did so. It's six months now, and inbetween I've checked to see if you even attempted one of them. Why do you so often make claims that you know to be untrue? Just why do you play these games, Gary?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

On your question of 'tithing' or 'giving' £100, £50, or £5 from £1000, if my answer about stewardship and personal responsibility didn't bring you to some deep reflections, then I take it that your concerns are wholly "irrelvant", as you say.

I tried to show you that it would be CONTRARY to Biblical teaching to just rely on stipends from church allowances (call it 'salary' if you want to) without the responsibility of seeking some form of employment for one's needs. If you want to do the contrary by relying entirely on stipends from church all through your life, then you are absolutely free to do so as well, although I do not find that such a thing is taught in the NT.

Let's get to grips with this issue, since you don't want a 'cop-out' answer, shall we? I understand that giving £100 or more is a lot for you; but does giving £5 or £10 from your monthly £1000 solve all your financial problems in life? What really is the issue - £5 out of £1000? Or, £10 out of £1000? What really is the issue?

There is no reason to fall into debt - which is why I talked about personal responsibility to seek a gainful employment earlier. Nobody ever said anywhere that you have to live on £1000 a month for the rest of your life; so if you feel that in your experience, your giving £5 or £10 from £1000 puts you at risk of falling into debt, you are under no obligation to give anything IF you do not want to give. It doesn't matter whether or not you want to define that giving in some form or another.

At the end, that example only again confirms just one thing for me: anti-tithers who make so much about giving "far, far, far, far, above" a tenth of their income are just making a fictitious claim. We know from well-documented surveys that average giving in the Church today is below 3%. When people are quite concerned whether giving £5 from £1,000 is going to put them at risk of falling into debt, then it only shows how much giving we do as Christians beyond our loud arguments. Such a pity!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

This line in your rejoinder calls for some serious answers:

Your quote: "And it has caused a huge mess, ‘hindered the gospel’ (which Paul sought to avoid and would rather die than boast (of the gospel) in vain) and has been taught in a legalistic and judgmental way by an ever-increasing number of ‘teachers’ in the body of Christ, many of whom see 'tithing' - to them - as an excellent way to fleece the flock for personal gain. Doesn’t that bother you at all? Well, it does bother me."

My answer: If Paul was concerned that tithing was responsible for causing the huge mess you complain about, I would see some substance in your claim - afterall, I once vehemently opposed tithing for Christians until I found that many of those whose arguments I had latched unto were simply dubious.

What bothers me deeply, though, is the fantastically fallacious claims often manufactured by anti-tithers. If tithing actually has hindered the Gospel, please tell me: what and how exactly have anti-tithers advanced the Gospel? How many anti-tithers do you know today have taken the Gospel into the far reaches of the world in the same daring faith as those they have constantly falsely accused?

Let me give you some examples: I know some churches which encourage their congregations to give by tithing and in other ways - Assemblies of God (AoG), and the Baptists, to mention just a very few. Have the AoG or Baptists "hindered the gospel" when it is so obvious that they have taken the Gospel of Christ to the nations of the world? By just how much in contrast have anti-tithers done to advance the Gospel to the far reaches of the earth in all their anti-tithing campaigns? How have anti-tithing campaigns inspired an increased giving of resources from believers to advance the Gospel?

I think we both would agree on this about what Jesus Himself said - if all that some believers can do is complain and accuse others of some short-comings while they complainers themselves are not doing anything better, then these complainers are sanctimonious hypocrites!

On the contrary, what has hindered the Gospel and caused a huge mess in Christianity is not tithing or giving - it is apostacy. Just as the apostles warned, e.g., in Acts 20:29-30. "Christian leaders" have bigger issues to be bothered about than the fallacious claims of anti-tithers who think that Christianity's main problem is tithing.

What have anti-tithers done about homosexuality in the Church? Child molestation and illicit scandals from church authorities? Theologians who would rather lie with false claims of their degrees and doctrines to give atheists the grounds to mock the Christian faith? Hypocrites in church who complain about less serious matters while they ignore bigger issues that affect the Body of Christ? Just how have anti-tithers and their celebrated monks tried to help sort out these bigger issues and thus advance the Gospel?

No - they just do ... nothing! They champion arguments about how people should not give, and yet for all that nobody has ever been inspired to give more as a result of anti-tithing campaigns. Tell me: how have all your arguments showed any reader that you have been inspired to give MORE than the £5 or £10 from your £1000 that you talked about earlier?

There's just so much to say about these things, Janet. While I'm not focusing on you personally, I think it would not be too much to put things in perspective about this anti-tithing fallacy that tithing is 'hindering the Gospel'. That is simply the most convoluted and pretentious claim any anti-tither can make in a public forum or blog.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Not only has tithing hindered the gospel, it has spread a false prosperity gospel ALL AROUND THE WORLD. Those who don't see this need a reality check.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

The usual anti-tithing mantra - sounds sweet, but hugely FALLACIOUS.

Besides the fact that there are far more serious issues that have hindered the spread of the Gospel, it seems rather comical that anti-tithers who are wholly ignorant of the fact have nothing to tell us about what THEY themselves have done to advance the Gospel. Like I said, they just sit by the sidelines, complain and grumble - and characteristically do nothing all day but argue about how not to give!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

You are full of you know what. You have absolutely no clue as to what anti-tithers do to advance the gospel. But I won't even waste my time telling you what I do to advance the gospel as you would then accuse me of boasting.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Whenever you want to start making fallacious claims that you cannot substantiate, you then give excuses that you would not even 'waste' your time telling your tall tales. If you don't have anything to say in the first place, then just shut up and stop polishing your duplicity with silly comebacks!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Then I will tell you what OTHER anti-tithers that I personally know do to advance the gospel.

They go to church services, participate in church activities, give generously as much as they are led to give, actually preach the sermon at their local church from time to time, give their testimony as often as they can to strangers they meet, bring others to the Lord, give their time to help others and take advantage of testifying while doing so, live their life as though it is a ministry, etc. etc. etc.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Hahaha! I knew you would come back with your tall tales. Well done. It's kinda comical that with your level of education, you still did not grasp what I said earlier, did you?

Here: "By just how much IN CONTRAST have anti-tithers done to advance the Gospel to the FAR REACHES of the earth in all their anti-tithing campaigns?"

Key words are capitalized -

(a) "IN CONTRAST" - have anti-tithers done much more "IN CONTRAST" to churches that have taken the Gospel to the far reaches of the earth? By HOW MUCH? Where's the stats to show the contrast?

(b) "FAR REACHES" - have anti-tithers done as much as tithing Churches to take the Gospel to the FAR REACHES of the earth? Again, please show me lucid examples (like the AoG and the Baptists) beyond your tall tales, please.

This is one of the amazing things about your half-sighted readership. You hhastily jump to conclusions because you cannot hold yourself with a little restraint to apply some reason in your reactions.

Anyone can do exactly the same things as you claim for your anti-tithers, but how does that amount to your advancing the Gospel to the FAR REACHES of the earth IN CONTRAST to tithing churches such as the examples of Bapstists and the Assemblies of God? How have anti-tithing campaigns inspired increased giving for advancing the Gospel 'IN CONTRAST' when most anti-tithers are grumbling about the risk of falling into debt by giving £5 out of £1000?

Just please pack your duplicity to one corner. Ever since it came to light that you could deceive the public with dubious claims about your Christian "EDUCATION", I knew there was absolutely nothing worth reading from your conscience. Don't sweat it with your 'etc., etc., etc.' - you have added nothing to polish your fallacies.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

Just how much IN CONTRAST have tithers done to advance the Gospel to the FAR REACHES of the earth in all their tithing campaigns? Do you have stats?

You are a joke, Tymon.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I gave just two examples earlier: Assemblies of God and Baptists. Where then are your examples, hmm?

Although Hubpages would not allow for external links, let me give you a summary -

(a) Assemblies of God churches:

"The Assemblies of God (AG), officially the World Assemblies of God Fellowship, is a group of over 140 autonomous but loosely-associated national groupings of churches which together form the world's largest Pentecostal denomination. With over 300,000 ministers and outstations in over 212 countries and territories serving approximately 57 to 60 million adherents worldwide, it is the sixth largest international Christian group of denominations. . . .

Through foreign missionary work and establishing relationships with other Pentecostal churches, the Assemblies of God expanded into a WORLDWIDE movement." - Wikipedia.

(b) Baptist Churches:

"The Baptist World Alliance reports more than 41 million members in more than 150,000 congregations. In 2002, there were over 100 million Baptists and Baptistic group members WORLDWIDE and over 33 million in North America." - Wikipedia.

We know these church groups (Aog and Baptists) are among those that encourage tithing in many of their churches.

Where are your examples 'IN CONTRAST' of anti-tithing churches or movements that have taken the Gospel WORLDWIDE? By how much 'IN CONTRAST'? Where are your references - Wikipedia? Google? Altavista? Alexa? Microsoft's 'Bing'? or MapQuest?. . . where are your references? Nothing to show other than your "etc., etc., etc."??

Oh, I almost forgot: your glib excuse for your anti-tithing errand boys is that they actually preach the sermon at their local church "from time to time", no? Nice.

You like to kid around and end up with your usual "etc., etc., etc.", yes? And after all your tall tales, there's not much to show for your noise, eh?

Like I said earlier: don't sweat it with your 'etc., etc., etc.' - you have added nothing to polish your fallacies.

Enjoy.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon said, "We know these church groups (Aog and Baptists) are among those that encourage tithing in many of their churches."

Yes, "in many" but not ALL of their churches, so you still haven't answered the question. You need to know the stats to show how many teach or encourage tithing and how many don't. I know of many Baptist churches that do NOT teach or encourage tithing.

You can distinguish between truth and joking. One of my godsons is an anti-tither and he gives the sermon at his church whenever the pastor is out of town (or not available). It is televised on the internet.

My best friend is an ordained minister in New Orleans. He was ordained by his own pastor. He, also, has given the sermons at that church on different occasions, and he, also, is an anti-tither. There are two examples for you. Do you need their names and church names? You are something else, Tymon. You are deceived by truth, but believe lies.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

CORRECTION: You can NOT distinguish between truth and joking.


Tymon 5 years ago

I guess when all you can show is the dregs of your duplicity, then you no longer can understand even the statements you make. How else would anyone make sense of your clause that someone could be "deceived by truth"? What is the meaning of being 'deceived by truth', Gary?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Please give me just one example of an anti-tithing church or movement that answers to the simple issue I raised originally -

"By just how much IN CONTRAST have anti-tithers done to advance the Gospel to the FAR REACHES of the earth in all their anti-tithing campaigns?"

Just give me the example of your anti-tithing church and CONTRAST that with the example I gave, without your excuses and all the usual 'etc., etc., etc.' Thanks.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

At present, I do not have the time to go through each of your points and answer them, you raise a few points in such a way that brings Titus 3:9 strongly to mind: ‘But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition.’

I would agree with Gary on this: that you do engage in a lot of double-talk and pointless wrangling about various words that are only a sub-text to the context of what is being discussed. This greatly detracts from any benefit in participating in discussion with you as, in my opinion, you seem to latch onto words within the ‘message’ as opposed to the meaning/intention of the ‘message itself.’ You then use those words to side-track/dismantle/discredit a non-essential argument rather than arguing the point itself (which you may be gearing up even now to do, rather than focusing on the meaning of what I am trying to communicate).

Yes, I agree, that scholarly debate takes account of exegesis, hermeneutics, context, word definitions etc. but not such that we go round in circles to the detriment of open discussion.

So, in short, I am losing interest in making ‘rejoinders’ to one so picky over non-essential words rather than essential meaning, if you can discern what I am trying to convey here.

Anyway, this is all I have time for today (actually I have ended up spending far too much time responding, so won’t be doing so much more in the near future – work of the ministry calls):

In response to: ‘1 Cor 9 teaches support of ministers of the gospel.’

Support could be one-off, it could be regular, it should be as one ‘prospers.’ No method is mentioned.

However, 1 Cor 16:1-4 does teach systematic giving, in that storing up of a gift/offering should be done on a weekly basis to be given at a future point (specifically in context, for the Jerusalem church as a gift as they were suffering famine at that time).

My quote: "Why this fixation on support of ministers to be a regular ten per cent and called tithing?"

Your response: I nowere claimed a "fixation" on a regular ten percent, much less did I ever make any claim anywhere that tithing should be the only or most important expression of a Christian's giving.

I used the word ‘fixation’ to make the point that NT giving is better labelled ‘offerings’ without needing to use the words ‘tithe’ or ‘tithing.’ My reason for saying this is that use of the term tithe/tithing has, and does, lead to some considerable confusion when sources are quoted from the OT as ‘tithing’ then comes laden with preconceptions and connations that are difficult to make helpful parallels from.

From reading the OT, do we tithe in like manner to:

a) Abraham, (Gen 14) – who tithed 10% of the ‘spoils of war’ to the ‘priest’, the remaining 90% given back to the King from whom the spoils were first taken (people, food and goods);

b) Jacob, (Gen 28) - who vowed (whether he fulfilled it or not is unknown) to give a tenth of all that the Lord gave him back to God; (Note: The Lord promised in v.13 to give Jacob ‘the LAND on which you lie,’ so that it is likely that Jacob’s vow ‘to give a tenth to God’ of all God gives him, was focused on the giving of land (and presumably its produce/lifestock). Please read Gen 28:13-15 and v20-22 to see how Jacob’s vow echoes God’s promise almost word for word.)

c) Tithing under the Law:

i. The Levitical tithe, Lev 27:30-33

ii. The Festival Tithe, Deut. 14:22-27 and

iii. The Poor Tithe, aka ‘The Three-Year tithe, Deut. 14:28-29,

where the tithe was the tenth part of produce/livestock.

Since we have no biblical precedent for ‘tithing from wages,’ in either the Old or New Testaments, tithing doctrines have been developed extra-biblically, using scripture in a non-literal way, subject to personal interpretation.

This had led to MUCH confusion and MUCH abusive practice by unprincipled ‘teachers,’ – Malachi 3 being the main source of abusive practice as it is related only to the Levitical tithe and confers a curse on those who ‘rob God’ and are not ‘obedient’ to tithe (which in Malachi was directed at the priests).

We know the tithing scriptures – and can debate back and forth on this – but many, many other Christians know only abusive practices, are not taught that ‘tithing’ can be voluntary, and are regularly told that their finances are cursed and they are being disobedient to God – that they are THIEVES.

Your personal experience of ‘voluntary’ tithing, and the experience of those you know who are ‘led to tithe voluntarily,’ in my opinion, does not outweigh the harm that is being done amongst the body of Christ and the need for people to be released from a ‘bondage to tithe.’ You, my friend, are very wrong if you think giving is the issue here, or even the level of giving – it is not. It is the error, the bondage, the attitude, the curses, the confusion, etc. – that is a BIG PROBLEM for maybe far more people than you realise.

Oh, and I go to the FAR REACHES on mission to many parts of Africa on a regular basis, self-supporting or from friends of the ministry who give support. We take with us donations of clothing etc and we support the churches with food and other necessities.

Those whom you label ‘anti-tithers’ of whom YOU ONCE WERE, are, in my opinion and contrary to your harsh notion, not against giving, I don’t know where you get that judgmental notion from. I believe that giving is very important for the body of Christ to do the work of mission.

You mention that ‘the anti-tithing CAMPAIGN’ has not increased giving. I believe that in due course, if and when a majority of a congregation realise and learn that ‘tithing’ is not a compulsory practice for faithful Christians, that newfound liberty, will set more people free to give from the heart, and I do think giving will increase and blessings will flow.

Personally, I am seeking, by God’s leading, to understand and follow sound biblical truths and practice within the body of Christ. God is shaking many ‘doctrines’ that I have been taught as a Christian and I would hazard that most people you label as ‘anti-tithers’ have had a following ‘shaking’ in their lives that have lead them on a similar journey. I don’t think it is out of stinginess, or any such thing, that tithing teaching has been challenged, but I do believe that those who don’t always ‘have means’ and have been told they must give 10% anyway, may understand better how ungracious some of this tithing teaching has been in practice, and sought to understand exactly how God intended us to give as Christians.

Since we are instructed in 2 Cor 9 to give as one purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity, I also believe that if children of God are properly taught about what the bible says about giving, understand the needs of the church, and are encouraged as team players to give as they are lead and according to means, churches and the work of mission would prosper far more than now, with pastors, church workers, the poor and needy all receiving benefit in proportion to need. At the moment, many ‘tithing’ churches have well-off pastors who benefit directly from the tithe and sometimes that’s as far as the giving goes. More balance is needed.

______________


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

My example concerning a church-worker’s income of £1000 to cover expenses, and how much to tithe from it, was a made-up example, which I said at the beginning. I then went on to say, that it was an example that I had in fact lived, having been a church-worker - I did not say that I earned £1000 with those exact same expenses. It was being a church worker as per the example that I had in fact ‘lived’. If you concluded that the specifics related to my personal life, sorry, you are wrong, that is not what I said.

But you have still not answered the question from that example as to whether the person should ‘tithe’ 10% of ‘all his increase’ being £1000 = £100 or 10% of the stipend which is all that remains after expenses are met, being 10% of £50 = £5? Is it so difficult to make a clear response to this question? I am still waiting for a straight-forward answer to this.

___________

# Your quote: ‘Nor did you realise that the word "freewill" is also 'Old Testament' and is used in the offerings of Israel in reference to animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses ("a freewill offering in beeves or sheep" - Lev. 22:21, KJV)??’

Please don’t deign to tell me what I do or do not know concerning the bible. I have researched, and continue to read scriptures from the OT and the NT concerning giving and the types of offerings made. ‘Freewill’ is in my bible as well as yours, and in similar places, though I mainly read the NKJV.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Your quote: ‘In retrospect, do YOU recognize the fact that many people who express their giving through tithing AND other ways are indeed led by the Spirit of the Lord? Do YOU? If you're not willing to acknowledge God's leading in their lives, what would that say about your outlook in dealing with other Christians?’

I believe that people can call things by a wrong name but from a right motive. I also believe that what/how we are taught something will have a strong influence on our spiritual responses. We all have a frame of reference for what we hear and learn and how we view/respond to things.

If I desire to obey what I have been taught about giving, I will pray to God in like manner and hear from God within a similar frame of reference.

1 Cor 2:10-12: ‘But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.’

I cannot answer as to exactly how a man is led. Proverbs 16:2 says, ‘All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirits.

My nephew when growing up was show that the pretty yellow flower he saw in Grandma’s garden was called a ‘DULIP’ no matter how many times I told him it was a ‘TULIP.’ He was very young, and stubborn, and convinced he was right.

Many are seeking after God and call Him whatever name they have learned he is called – but they will not find Him until they come to the truth of who He is and learn about His Son and His sacrifice for us.

So what am I saying?

One may be led to ‘tithe’ when one’s motive is to give 10%. Or, one may be lead to ‘tithe’ in obedience to what they have learned is right to give and WANT to do to what they have been told honours God. The spirit within the man, may lead him to give ten per cent of income and he may be blessed by God for his motive to give in support of the church.

Ten per cent of wages is an acceptable sum to give, as long as it is ‘as one prospers’ and freely given, in obedience to God’s leading, yes, but not in obedience to erroneous teaching and the threat of curses. Calling it a ‘tithe’ may sound okay to you or the giver, but may conjure up the curses and robbing God for others. So, isn’t it better to just call it ‘being led to give 10%?’ But does anyone need to know how much you give? Should you be telling others that you ‘tithe’?

Matt 6:2-4: 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.Don’t let your left hand know what your right is doing. Give in secret and your Father in heaven will reward you.

Now, without calling for a detailed debate of the following (or the latter): do you remember how in Acts 21 Paul, a man led by the Spirit of God, was determined to go to Jerusalem despite warnings of great danger?

Acts 20:22: ‘22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.’

Act 21: 4 says that in Tyre he was told by disciples in obedience to the Holy Spirit NOT to go to Jerusalem: ‘And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.’

But Paul was still led to go there: By whom, the same Holy Spirit?, the spirit within him?

Acts 21:14: ‘So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, “The will of the Lord be done.”’

Acts 23:11 ‘But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome.”’

It was a matter of the frame of reference: other disciples saw danger; Paul himself saw necessity, despite danger. The Lord saw a faithful servant determined to witness for Him everywhere he went.

So, in conclusion, I don’t judge any who give any amount, but I do feel that the church should teach on giving in a better way, and free those who feel ‘bound’ to give a 'tithe' to understand the liberty they are under to give as they are led. (Have I said that before? Yup).

Do you agree with my conclusion?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Amen! Janet.

You articulate your thoughts well and I see I can learn from you.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Thank you, Gary. I am honoured! And it put a smile on my face, too.

Janet


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

The substance of your latest rejoinder is simply tantamount to 'ad hominem' fallacy for the most part, but I shouldn't be surprised. Anyone can quote Tituse 3:9-10 in their mistaken idea that others except themselves are striving about the Law - which incidentally is characteristic with anti-tithing dialogues. Isn't it somewhat risible that you guys have been forever wrangling about the same Law that you throw out and yet dribble in back into your own arguments when your experiences contradict your conclusions?

Agreeing with Gary in his false accusations - that's sweet, Janet... and I have nothing against your doing so, other than that when you do so on false premises and accusatively, Proverbs 10:18 comes to mind - "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." If one makes the sort of baseless allegations that Gary has been making and yet unable to substantiate, it tells me just how much "agreement" you have thereto.

That said, there really would be no point repeating myself on your rejoinders since you brought absolutely nothing fresh forward. At best, you only reharshed the same reactive responses you gave earlier without actually delving into the real issues. Be that as it may, here again are my responses to your misgivings:

1. You do agree that the NT teaches 'systematic giving' - your problem is that it is not implied in 1 Corinthians 9. Rather, you find it in 1 Cor. 16, even though there's no verse in that chapter that uses the phrase 'systematic giving'. So, what then was the susbtance of your initial reaction when in very fact you are the very same person quoting a verse that does not use the expression that troubled you in the first place?

2. The excuses you gave about support for ministers being either 'one-off', regular, etc. are simply that - 'excuses'. Do ministers of the Gospel serve in that ministry on a 'one-off' basis? Is it not clear that verse 14 indicates a regular support as well as that it be done in a systematic way? Do I need to expound on that yet again? Please let me know.

3. Your second point about using preferred terms such as 'offering' is yet another excuse - it does not make anti-tithers sleep better at night to know that the apostles actually used the Old Testament in dealing with the 'offerings' of the NT, does it? So, what about "sacrifices" - what then? Did the apostles not use that same word in reference to Christian giving (Php. 4:18)?

Now, of course, I do not mean that we should be quibbling so much about terminologies; but we do know what would be meant in context of the Christian uses each of 'tithes', 'offerings', 'freewill', or 'sacrifice'. These words are not neologisms of the NT - rather, these are terms already used for expressions of giving among God's people. If Christians then use them in particular contexts to refer to various ways in which they express their giving, what is the quarrel about?

4. Your problem highlighted by "sources are quoted from the OT" would only mean that you most probably forget the fact that it is the same thing the apostles did - they quoted "sources from the OT", did they not? If you deny that, please tell me: what source(s) was the apostle Paul referring to in 1 Corinthians 9 - did he not use the same "Old Testament" that anti-tithers have been grumbling about? Let me know if you're averse to this one, and it won't be such a bother to walk you through the fact in the NT yet again!

5. Your point about tithing in "like manner" as those in the OT underscores once again the legalism of anti-tithing arguments. The phrase 'like manner' could basically mean 'example' - it is not the pedantic replication of the individual experiences of the OT saints in a LITERAL LEGALISTIC manner, even though we draw principles directly from them. It is not 'spoils of war' that defines the word 'tithe'; nor is it 'food, food and only food' that defines that word. The term (tithe) simply means a 'tenth' - and that is what many Christians draw upon in principle/example. There is absolutely no reason why as Christians we cannot draw from the OT as a source - in the same way that anti-tithers derived the word "freewill" from the OLD Testament and NOT from the NT.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

6. Your grumbling about "unprincipled teachers" is one of the jingoistic self-righteous cards often waved by anti-tithers. I have tried again and again to show that there are as many unprincipled teachers in both camps of the 'tithing' and 'anti-tithing' debate - but it would be wrong for either of us to tar everyone with the same brush or lump everyone in the same box!

If you feel it is only rational to lump everyone who teaches tithes in the same coterie, how would you feel if I dared do the very same thing by -

(a) by lumping YOU along with Gary Arnold as very "unprincipled people" because it so happens that Gary unscrupulously and without conscience deceived the public with a sham claim to a 'Doctor of Divinity' (D.D.) as part of his Christian "EDUCATION" when he knew that he did not ACADEMICALLY earn the D.D.?

(b) by lumping YOU along with John MacArthur who for several years held on to his heretical teaching of DENYING the eternal sonship of Jesus Christ? Did YOU Janet also deny the eternal sonship of Christ?

There are so many such examples I could give to highlight how very "unprincipled" some anti-tithers are; not only in deceiving the public, or claiming things which they know are blatant lies, or even teaching heresies for years; but also sit smuggly and arrogantly in pulpits as leaders of churches!

When anti-tithers think their problem is solved by accusing tithers of their perceived "unprincipled" worries, do these same anti-tithers stop to glance over their shoulders and see how seriously disgraceful their beloved anti-tithing celebrants are??

If you don't like to read things you never considered about the grounds you occupy, then face the issues as simply as you can manage rather than veering off to complain about "unprincipled teachers" - as if there are not as many anti-tithers who have taught far more serious heresies for years.

_____

Your quote: "We know the tithing scriptures – and can debate back and forth on this – but many, many other Christians know only abusive practices, are not taught that ‘tithing’ can be voluntary, and are regularly told that their finances are cursed and they are being disobedient to God – that they are THIEVES."

I can understand where you're coming from; but again, as every so often, I'm more concerned about what exactly is the issue in your concerns?

In the quote above, is your worry more about Christians not being taught that tithing could be VOLUNTARY? Or, is it really that tithing is being taught AT ALL to Christians? Or yet, is it that you have come to the conclusion that all leaders in the Christian church who teach tithing do so on the basis of compulsion - or you're just making an assumption?

If it's a case of the first issue, has it ever occured to you that there are MANY Christian leaders who teach tithing as a VOLUNTARY expression of Christian worship? How I wish Hubpages allows for links to be posted; but I would ask that you challenge yourself to do a broader search to enlighten yourself on this issue - you will find that not every church that teaches tithing does so as a matter of compulsion. There are many anti-tithers who deny this basic fact in their myopic worldview; but in reality you will find so many among tithing churches that teach it in a healthy way across the globe.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your quote: "You, my friend, are very wrong if you think giving is the issue here, or even the level of giving – it is not. It is the error, the bondage, the attitude, the curses, the confusion, etc. – that is a BIG PROBLEM for maybe far more people than you realise."

I'm sorry, but that quote above somewhat convinces me that you probably never read my rejoinders at all before responding - or, if you did, you probably did so in mad haste. . . or yet, simply read your own misgivings into my comments. But nowhere did I ever imply that giving (or even tithing) is the big problem in Christianity today.

Infact, while YOU are the one (as applauded by Gary Arnold) who posited that tithing has 'caused a huge mess,' and ‘hindered the gospel’, on the contrary I argued that tithing (or giving) is NOT the problem. This is what I said earlier (not the emphasis) -

"On the contrary, what has hindered the Gospel and caused a huge mess in Christianity is NOT TITHING or GIVING - it is APOSTACY. Just as the apostles warned, e.g., in Acts 20:29-30. "Christian leaders" have bigger issues to be bothered about than the fallacious claims of anti-tithers who think that Christianity's main problem is tithing."

So, Janet, I think it should be plain now that you actually misread me there and were only arguing against your strawman. I never once argued that tithing or giving was the issue - it was rather YOU who was inclined to that fallacy. :)


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your quote: "Oh, and I go to the FAR REACHES on mission to many parts of Africa on a regular basis, self-supporting or from friends of the ministry who give support. We take with us donations of clothing etc and we support the churches with food and other necessities."

Oh please, Janet. . . please!! It were better that you save the tall tales. My query was not about whether you claim to go anywhere, as ANYBODY on the net could make such a claim! If anything, please read my query carefully - jeyword: CONTRAST!?!

I was asking anti-tithers to CONTRAST what they have done to advance the Gospel if they feel that tithing (as you argued) is responsible for hindering the Gospel. My observation is that those denominations which (such as AoG and Baptist) which teach tithing have NOT hindered the Gospel, for who can deny the FACT of the impact of their labours in the Gospel?!?

"BY CONTRAST", please name just one example of an anti-tithing CHURCH or 'church movement' that has done BETTER than those tithing Churches in advancing the Gospel.

In simpler English: both the AoG and Baptists (which teach tithing) are known for two things among others -

(a) they have a WORLDWIDE presence numbering into MILLIONS

(b) they PARTNER with other churches for the sake of the Gospel

Now, if you may, since you complain that tithing has hindered the Gospel and want to hold tithing churches responsible for that fallacious claim, I only asked for any anti-tithing church which has done MUCH BETTER by far in CONTRAST to the ministry of those two examples!! Please name just ONE example of anti-tithing church that -

(i) has a WORLDWIDE presence numbering FAR MORE than AoG or Baptists

(ii) PARTNER with other churches for the sake of the Gospel.

How come neither you nor Gary Arnold understand this simple issue? Anyone can claim to go on missions, preach the Gospel in local churches "from time to time", blah-blah-blah, ad infinitum! Yet, for crying out loud, we know for a fact that anti-tithers will not partner with tithing Churches for the sake of the Gospel. Surprised? Oh, please ask your Gary - he has stated in other blogs/forum that he refused to serve in some churches BECAUSE they teach tithing - yet, he has no qualms on his conscience to use a D.D. from an organization that ordains atheists, nor did he feel a tinge of scruples in deceiving the world about his sham of a 'D.D.' as part of his EDUCATION!

No problem - people always make claims on the net to help them feel sweet on the inside. But sorry, the issue is not what you do as an individual in your own claim; but what anti-tithing churches have done IN CONTRAST to those who assume have "hindered" the Gospel simply because they are tithing Churches!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your quote: "Those whom you label ‘anti-tithers’ of whom YOU ONCE WERE, are, in my opinion and contrary to your harsh notion, not against giving, I don’t know where you get that judgmental notion from."

I confess that I was once an anti-tither; yes, I argued vehemently against tithing and against tithers. But several incidents led me to rethink my convictions - and it was a question from a mature Christian that effectively made me break from that the anti-tithing bandwagon, after the rude discovery of the shameless duplicity of many, many anti-tithers.

Second, I did not assert anywhere that anti-tithers were or have been "against giving" - please quote me where I might have said so, and I'd gladly consider it. If you don't find me making any such assertions, what is the substance to your allegation that I had the notion that anti-tithers were "against giving"?

If anything, the one thing I have seen again and again is that many anti-tithers in all their campaigns have NEVER inspired increased giving (please mark the qualifiers - "inspired" and "increased").

Why do I say so? First, where have you ever read that the average giving in the Church is anywhere near 10% of the income of Christians? We as Christians often claim that we have a "higher calling" under grace than those under the Law - yet, it is the the Christian shame that our average giving does not even come close to what the Jews gave!

Second, look around you when you read the arguments of anti-tithers - it is often full of complaints and worries about not being able to give as much as a tenth of their income. At least, you used an example which you claimed was true in your own experience - unless you want to recant on that claim now.

I often wonder: if the giving of a tenth (1 out of 10) even voluntarily is DIFFICULT for many anti-tithers, who would they persuade that they would give "sacrificially" beyond a tenth? Does it even make sense to you? How do people go round explaining that a tenth puts them at risk of falling into debt - while at the same time claiming that they give ABOVE that when they no longer tithe?!?

Yet, how many times we come across Christians who claim to give "far, far, far, far, far above" a tenth, and yet are never able to inspire the same in the lives of their anti-tithing fellows? Scroll up to the polls in this hub and see for yourself - compare the results of those who tithe with those who do not tithe; and then ask yourself: is it logical to you that those who argue against tithing to find it easier to consistently give beyond a tenth of their resources when in very fact they cry about falling into debts? When a man tells you that he is worried that £5 out of £500 or out of £1000 puts him at risks of debt, we can just imagine how true in reality his claim to give ABOVE £5 would be!

No, we all know how anti-tithers go about making empty claims. Read between the lines, it won't take long before you find the gapping holes in their so-called "far above" and "sacrificial" giving.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Your quote: "Please don’t deign to tell me what I do or do not know concerning the bible. I have researched, and continue to read scriptures from the OT and the NT concerning giving and the types of offerings made. ‘Freewill’ is in my bible as well as yours, and in similar places, though I mainly read the NKJV."

Hahahaha! Janet, what's biting you? Did I ever say that the word "freewill" is not in your 'Bible' or mine? Go back and read and re-read my comments, which you even quoted. You're only arguing a strawman here.

What I said in summary is that -

1) the word "freewill" is NEVER ONCE used in the 'NEW' Testament

2) the word "freewill" does not appear in the 'NEW' Testament even in the KJV

3) the word "freewill" is found only in the 'OLD' Testament

4) I also gave an EXAMPLE of a verse where "freewill" is used: Lev. 22:21

I'm sure you know the difference between the

(a) "OLD" Testament; and

(b) "NEW" Testament??

Since you in very fact quoted me, how come you're throwing this strawman as if I ever argued anywhere that "freewill" is not in the 'Bible'?

Lol, that was quite comical of you, Janet! :))

Please carefully read what you want to argue in responding to my comments in future - thanks in advance!

_____

Lastly, with regards to the question of whether or not you recognized the leading of the Spirit in the lives of other people: I didn't ask whether or not people can call things by a wrong or right name. The question is not about diction, but about the Spirit's leading.

All you wanted to say was that you do recognize that leading in the lives of other believers even though you may find they do not embrace your ideas or arguments, not so? If otherwise, then I might have misread you - and my apologies in advance.

However, I think your last line is the very same thing we have both said: giving in whatever form (including tithes) should be voluntary rather than by compulsion. The problem here is that the typical anti-tither is much too concerned with fantanstically fallacious claims that contradict the reality of his/her experiences.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon said, "it so happens that Gary unscrupulously and without conscience deceived the public with a sham claim to a 'Doctor of Divinity' (D.D.) as part of his Christian "EDUCATION" when he knew that he did not ACADEMICALLY earn the D.D.?"

You are a flat out liar, Tymon. The DD degree was honorary, but I did, in fact, take a course so that I would earn it. I did not have to take the course, but I did. I learned a lot from the course. It definitely was part of my Christian education. But because of people like you who like to pick on everything anyone says or claims, I removed that from my Christian education on my website even though I do consider it a part of my education.

It is obvious from all this back and forth you seem to have absolutely no clue as to what either Janet or I have argued. You pick on words instead of the thought. You either have no clue, or you just plain haven't seen what I have seen.

I am sure satan enjoys your comments, Tymon. You are playing right into his hands without a clue.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Taken from wikipedia:

"In the United States the Doctor of Divinity is usually awarded as an honorary degree."

I am in the US. Even though I could, I have NEVER used Dr. or Doctor in front of my name, and I never claimed to be a Ph.D. The pastor at one church that I attended recently has the same degree I have, and shows NOTHING else for his qualification.

It was the pastor of my own church that advised me to include the DD degree as a part of my education. I followed his advice instead of the advice of a good friend who warned me of people like you who would find fault with it and make an issue out of it.

You need to get off of your high horse and stick with the issues.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Please bear a little godly conscience when you wave your duplicity in public. Here are a few questions for you to answer just so we know how conceited you continue to be:

1. Did you NEVER claim a 'Doctor of Divinity' was part of your Christian "EDUCATION" in your PDF paper on your site for download? (Answer: YES, you actually did).

2. Did you EVER state that the 'Doctor of Divinity' was an 'honorary degree' in that claim? (Answer: NO, you nowhere stated an 'honorary', but in very fact claimed it was part of your "EDUCATION" - a calculated lie).

In both instances, you cannot deny the obvious, because you NEVER stated that the D.D. was 'honorary'; rather, you put it there as part of your Christian "EDUCATION".

Your excuse that another pastor "advised" you to claim it as part of your EDUCATION does not wash the fact that you were deliberately deceiving yourself and all who fell for your sham!

When someone claims that a degree was part of their EDUCATION, it is obvious they are claiming that they earned that degree by ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT.

Did you earn your 'Doctor of Divinity' by academic achievement before claiming it was part of your Christian EDUCATION?

(a) If not, why then did you claim it was part of your Christian "EDUCATION"?

(b) If you never made any such claims of a D.D. as part of your Christian EDUCATION, why then did you go back to remove the sham claim?!? WHY?

You do 'consider' your shameful claim as part of your "education", you say? And you believe that satan enjoys my comments - for what? For exposing your calculated fraud? Have you never read the verse in your Bible that says we should "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11)?

No wonder! It is this despicable behaviour coming from jaundiced-faced self-righteous folks like you that give Christianity the bad name that disgust unbelievers! How do you ever have the face to lie so calculatedly and then dress up to go and preach "truth" to ANYBODY?

After having lied all your way through, come back and tell us that you were led by the Holy Spirit to act in such a duplicitous manner! Only liars would enjoy your continued deliberate falsehood without a conscience.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

As I pointed out, the Doctor of Divinity degree issued in the US is usually (always as far as I am aware of) an honorary degree, but the word honorary is seldom used.

The fact that you ask the question did I ever use it shows your persistence in trying to make trouble. I already said I removed it because of people like you. And I already said I took the course even though I didn't have to. And it was, IN FACT, a part of my Christian education. All of my self-study is also a part of my Christian education. Nowhere did I say part of a formal education. Maybe you need to look up the word education in the dictionary.

I did nothing wrong and nothing that I need apologize for. I removed the DD degree from the website and pdf ONLY because it was causing a problem with people like you. I stand by the fact that I have the degree, and that the course I took IS a part of my Christian education.

Now, go stick your head in the toilet.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Everyone following this blog should see how Tymon falsely accuses me of purposely being deceitful INSTEAD OF sticking to the issues and answering the questions posed to him by Janet. Apparently Janet has overwhelmed Tymon and Tymon now resorts to going back to an old topic which I have already explained many times.

If I ever misled anyone with my DD degree, I am sorry for that. Until today I didn't realize the DD degree is issued differently in other countries. Now I see how someone could have been misled if they are in a different country and didn't know how the degree is given in the US. However, that is not my fault. I personally know of no one in the US that puts the word "honorary" in front of their degree.

Tymon has continuously falsely accused me of being deceitful and has continuously harassed me on these blogs. He (or she) has deceived many by using different screen names on different blogs. Sometimes he (or she)uses a male name and sometimes it has been a female name as far as what I would associate the names with here in the US.

Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not I have been deceitful or honest.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

With regard to 'freewill':

Your quote:... Just yesterday even YOU used the word "freewill" in one of your rejoinders when you said - "We should also be taught that giving should be freewill" - but you didn't cough and had no qualms whatsoever in using that word which you will not find ANYWHERE in the NT, did you? NOR DID YOU REALISE that the word "freewill" is also 'Old Testament' and is used in the offerings of Israel in reference to animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses ("a freewill offering in beeves or sheep" - Lev. 22:21, KJV)??

Nor did I realise???

WRONG. Yes, I did realise.

Or do you not realise that your statement that I did not realise is entirely WRONG?


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Here is a summary of our debate concerning 1 Cor 9: 13-14. I have emphasised some of the main points by CAPITALISING THEM since I can’t highlight or underline.

# 1 Your quote: A CHRISTIAN CAN ADOPT NUMBERS 18 without seeking a literal application of so-called 'SPECIFICS'. An argument of "SPECIFICS" is what I refer to as legalism in the literalist tradition. PAUL USED THE OT LAW OF MOSES FOR TEACHING SUPPORT OF NT MINISTERS without asking the Christian to adopt the "SPECIFICS" of ceremonial purification and all sorts! (1 COR. 9:13-14).

#2 Your next quote: THERE IS NO VERSE IN THE BIBLE - OT OR NT - THAT CONDEMNS TITHING IN ITSELF. RATHER, THE NT USES THE SAME OT PRINCIPLE OF SYSTEMATIC GIVING IN SUPPORT MINISTERS AS WE FIND IN 1 COR. 9:13-14. That much is clear, and I have not seen you actually deny its veracity other than repeatedly arguing away from that very fact.

# 3. My response: "Excuse me? 1 COR 9:13-14 MENTIONS NEITHER SYSTEMATIC GIVING NOR TITHING. The quote about muzzling an ox is from Deut 25:4 which Paul again mentions in 1 Tim 5:18, and simply tells us that ‘the labourer is worthy of his reward, especially those who labour in word and doctrine.’"

# 4 Your response: IT IS TRUE 1 CORINTHIANS 9:13-14 DOES NOT SPELL OUT 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING' IN A-B-C FASHION - but that doesn't in itself deny the fact that systematic giving is taught in BOTH the OT and NT, as all informed Christians who study their Bibles know for certainty. You really do not have to wait until you see 'systematic giving' spelt-out in those verses in capital letters before you got the gist of my previous comments. Looking for those terms to be spelt out in A-B-C would be just as much in the same fallacy of an anti-tithing literalist who waits to find any other teaching in a passage of Scripture which is not spelt by name.

# 5 My response: ‘1 COR 9 TEACHES SUPPORT OF MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL.’ Support could be one-off, it could be regular, it should be as one ‘prospers.’ NO METHOD IS MENTIONED. HOWEVER, 1 COR 16:1-4 DOES TEACH SYSTEMATIC GIVING, in that storing up of a gift/offering should be done on a weekly basis to be given at a future point (specifically in context, for the Jerusalem church as a gift as they were suffering famine at that time).

# 6 Your response: YOU DO AGREE THAT THE NT TEACHES 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING' - YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT IT IS NOT IMPLIED IN 1 CORINTHIANS 9. RATHER, YOU FIND IT IN 1 COR. 16, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NO VERSE IN THAT CHAPTER THAT USES THE PHRASE 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING'. SO, WHAT THEN WAS THE SUSBTANCE OF YOUR INITIAL REACTION WHEN IN VERY FACT YOU ARE THE VERY SAME PERSON QUOTING A VERSE THAT DOES NOT USE THE EXPRESSION THAT TROUBLED YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Double-talk, indeed.

YOU are the one who mentioned systematic giving FROM 1 COR 9 with Paul ‘using’ the OT Law of Moses (you referred in the same comment to Numbers 18, which is about tithing).

I DIDN’T AGREE THEN that 1 Cor 9 taught systematic giving (in same manner as Numbers 18) AND I DO NOT AGREE THAT POINT NOW.

Is the substance of my initial reaction clear enough now?

It hasn't changed.

HOWEVER, I agree that systematic giving IS taught in 1 Cor 16.

Systematic giving, AS YOU AGREED – IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ONE TENTH OF ANYTHING, might be, might not be. Might be based on Numbers 18 (Levitical tithe) but not specifically.

Can we move on from this point now?

Hope so.

Janet


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

Your entire post concerning FOOD, FOOD AND ONLY FOOD from a few days ago IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

The whole point is indeed that if Paul is basing Christian giving on Numbers 18/Deut 14 then support of ministers SHOULD ONLY BE FOOD.

Number 18/Deut 14 is about food and that is not the way we 'tithe'/support to ministers today.

But, blessing workers in the gospel with FOOD AND SHELTER (if indeed, it is done in like manner as the Levites who had no inheritance) IS how the early church supported gospel workers. And feeding the poor, needy and homeless IS how things were done in the early church. Food, food and only food.

Feeding programmes and supporting the household of ministers with food etc. is an honourable way to support the work of God.

So, agreed, it is impossible to reconcile Deut 14 and Numbers 18 with 1 Cor 9 UNLESS we give food.

Giving monetary support CANNOT line up with the OT because that is NOT how it was done back then.

So unless you base Christian tithing on "food" it would quite simply make your arguments untenable, wouldn't it, TYMON?

Enjoy!!

By the way, did I ever say that I have always held the view that tithing based on Levitical principles is wrong?

Or did I not say that in the past I have tithed, owed tithes, tithed from plenty and from lack and given offerings in all sorts of way?

But in recent years God has led me to research/re-visit how Christians are supposed to give. this I have said several times already 9don't you read my posts?)

Maybe you would do well to read posts more thoroughly and not look for words you can jump on to try to make others look silly, presumably to make it seem as if you are winning an argument (which only you seem to want to engage in).

Janet


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Your quote: If Paul was concerned that tithing was responsible for causing the huge mess you complain about, I would see some substance in your claim – after all, I once vehemently opposed tithing for Christians until I found that many of those whose arguments I had latched unto were simply dubious.

My response: How could Paul complain about a practice that was not being done by the early church, therefore said mess from ‘tithing’ didn’t exist in his day?

I have read, though I can’t reference it just now, that THE CHURCH WAS NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO COLLECT TITHES UNTIL c.700 AD.

There is a blog called “Slave to the Word” which I have just recently looked at, that details the progress of ‘giving’ as recorded by the early church fathers.

It is an interesting read - you might learn something.

In a particular post the blog mentions that Justin Martyr, who recorded how church services were operated in his day, wrote that churches mainly took up offerings from the rich to be given to the poor.

He records that two offerings were taken – one consisting of food only, consumed by the congregants and taken to those absent; the second being food and money for the clergy and for the poor. No mention is made of tithes or of offerings being called ‘tithes’.

From what I gather, no mention of tithing was made in the first few centuries after the apostolic writings, so ‘tithing’ did not simply ‘continue on’ from the OT.

Somewhere along the line, it seems during the mid 4th century, advocates of returning to tithing began amongst well-known Church Fathers.

Six such notable men of the church apparently argued that if Christians wouldn’t sell all in support of the gospel, they should at least give tithes as the Jews did to support the clergy and the poor. What I read did not mention whether the Church Fathers expected tithes to be food, money or a combination of both, but it still seemed to take a few hundred more years before the church was ‘allowed’ to collect tithes from its members.

The rest is history, as they say.

Somewhere along the line, systematic giving in the form of TITHING was made compulsory in some denominations for membership / right-standing with God and curses were attributed to befalling the disobedient to the command to tithe.

Tithes became the main source of giving in support of church building programmes, the clergy and the work of the gospel.

The way in which this legalistic approach to giving hinders the gospel, in my opinion, is that it blurs the line of the pure, free gospel – as tithes are demanded to be paid rather than FREEWILL offerings received.

You KNOW this puts a lot of people off of church and the ministers of the church, thus, why I say it can act as a hindrance to the gospel.

Plus, some claim the ‘tithe’ to be the sole possession of the ‘pastor’(I know of ministers who teach this) – quoting OT scriptures in support, and equating the pastor to the Levitical priesthood.

This then leaves only offerings available to support building maintenance, giving to the poor and mission.

Well, as we know, for many, after giving 10% of income they don’t have much left over to give as offerings, so the work of the gospel often DOES SUFFER as a result. The pastor has taken nearly all that his members were able to contribute and he himself is living a very comfortable life while some others struggle to make ends meet, and the needy are rarely helped.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Your quote 1 (a few hours ago): I did not assert anywhere that anti-tithers were or have been "against giving" - please quote me where I might have said so, and I'd gladly consider it. If you don't find me making any such assertions, what is the substance to your allegation that I had the notion that anti-tithers were "against giving"?

Your quote 2 (less than 2 days ago): Besides the fact that there are far more serious issues that have hindered the spread of the Gospel, it seems rather comical that anti-tithers who are wholly ignorant of the fact have nothing to tell us about what THEY themselves have done to advance the Gospel. Like I said, they just sit by the sidelines, complain and grumble - AND CHARACTERISTICALLY DO NOTHING ALL DAY BUT ARGUE ABOUT HOW NOT TO GIVE!

You seem to be very confused. Constantly chasing your tail all day is obviously making you dizzy!


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

I should have realized long ago that you struggle with English, and that explains why your rejoinders are simply a reharsh of your repetitive empty piffling.

Take the last quote you weakly attempted to obfuscate. I asked you to quote me where I ever stated that anti-tithers do not give. Rather than find that quote, you drew at straws in your attempt to seek out my comments about "nothing" and thereby conclude I asserted that anti-tithers do not give? What a laugh!

Let me demystify your confusion. The part of my comment you last quoted was in reference to an earlier rejoinder about how anti-tithers do "nothing" in reference to the "more serious issues". As we know, giving is not the "issue" - and you also acknowledged that, did you not?

So, what was I referring to initially? Here is my previous comment -

"What have anti-tithers done ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE CHURCH? CHILD MOLESTATION and ILLICIT SCANDALS from church authorities? THEOLOGIANS who would rather LIE with FALSE CLAIMS of their degrees and doctrines TO GIVE ATHEISTS THE GROUNDS TO MOCK THE CHRISTIAN FAITH? Hypocrites in church who complain about less serious matters while they ignore bigger issues that affect the Body of Christ?"

Those were the issues I was referring to, and then at the end of that paragraph I asked this question -

"Just how have anti-tithers and their celebrated monks tried to help sort out THESE BIGGER ISSUES and thus advance the Gospel?"

In the very next line, my answer was this - "No - they just do ... NOTHING!" etc., etc.

Now, the "nothing" is not in reference to anti-tithers "giving" or "not giving". It should be obvious that it was in direct reference to what I said in the previous paragragh about "THESE BIGGER ISSUES" - the bigger issues which I have outlined and now highlighted in capitals in my quote above.

This should not have been so challenging for you to grasp, would it? Nobody who understand English comprehension would assume that by "nothing" I was referring to "giving", since we both already have acknowledged that giving is not the issue here!

It is the sort of strawman fallacy you endlessly repeat that makes me wonder if I had been engaging someone who's very academically challenged. So, I'll just leave the rest of your reharshed mantra as they are - it's just not my fault you find them a mystery.

Enjoy.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

When you lie (as you have often done), have a heart to bear a tinge of godly conscience to not further your deceit.

An honorary degree is not part of your Christian EDUCATION - that much we know. Only conceited folks will applaud your fraudulent claim about the D.D. being part of your Christian "EDUCATION".

If you earned the Doctor of Divinity degree by ACADEMIC achievement, please name the University that awarded you the D.D. in fulfilment of your academic standing. Just name the University - then we know whether or not you understand the meaning of "EDUCATION".

But we know that you did not earn the acclaimed 'D.D.' from any university, nor did you earn it by academic achievement. Contrary to your perennial lies that the D.D. was part of your "education", the ULC (Universal Life Church, Modesto) that you attributed as the awarding body of your D.D. clearly states the following on their site concerning their degrees (emphasis mine) -

1. "The degrees convey rank, title, or status within the church. THEY DO NOT CONVEY ACADEMIC STANDING OR ACHIEVEMENT."

2. "IN NO CASE would I include such information UNDER THE HEADING OF EDUCATION, nor as Specialized Training. It would be more appropriate to list these credentials under the heading of Titles, Awards, or Other Achievements."

3. "If an employer suspects that you are attempting to pass off your religious titles as ACADEMIC TRAINING or to qualify for a pay raise, YOU WILL LOSE A LOT OF CREDIBILITY."

Now please think carefully on these -

(a) If the ULC Modesto clearly says that their degrees DO NOT convey academic standing or achievement, why then have you been lying that the D.D. was part of your EDUCATION?

(b) Since the ULC clearly states that in no case would the title be included under the heading of "EDUCATION", why have you persistently held on to your fraud of claiming the D.D. as part of your EDUCATION?!?

(c) Since the ULC states the consequences of attempting to pass off your religious title as ACADEMIC TRAINING, would it not imply huge lose of credibility on your part?

Why do you keep holding on to your fraudulent claims when it is so obvious that the ULC church that gave you that 'title' clearly says that it does not convey academic standing or achievement and should not be listed under the heading of "EDUCATION"? Your 'pastor' that urged you to make such fraudulent claims - does he have moral scruples at all? Have you lost all shame to the point that you have become a total stranger to honesty?

How do folks like you dress up to preach 'truth' to ANYBODY when you keep lying without conscience in public, even when your lies are so obvious?


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

Erm...it's 're-hashed' not re-harshed...


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

Acknowledged, thanks. :)


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Tymon,

NO "degree" is a part of anyone's education. The learning involved is the education, not the degree, so it wouldn't matter what university the degree came from.

Many are self-educated. The learning from the course I took when getting the DD degree IS a part of my Christian education.

I am done replying to your nonsense.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

"An empty tomb, inc. report found that evangelicals give churches about 4 percent of their income (and all Christians only 2.43 percent), far less than the biblical 10 percent tithe."

In churches I have attended, we are told that less than 5% of the members give a tenth of their income to the church.

Studies show that a very small percentage of Christians actually give as much as a tenth of their income to the church.

Conclusion: Since such a small percentage actually give a tenth of their income to the church, non-tithers do more to further the Kingdom of God than so-called tithers. More total money comes from the non-tithers.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: 'NO "degree" is a part of anyone's education. The learning involved is the education, not the degree, so it wouldn't matter what university the degree came from.'

My answer: Why then did you list the 'D.D.' as part of your 'Christian EDUCATION' when in very fact you knew it would be unethical to claim it under a heading of "Education"?

From the ULC, Modesto site:

2. "IN NO CASE would I include such information UNDER THE HEADING OF EDUCATION, nor as Specialized Training. It would be more appropriate to list these credentials under the heading of Titles, Awards, or Other Achievements."

[In direct contravention of that disclaimer, you Gary listed the 'Doctor of Divinity' under the heading of your 'Christian EDUCATION' - you knew that was a bold-faced lie, and that is why you hurried to remove it when challenged].

From the ULC, Modesto site:

3. "If an employer suspects that you are attempting to pass off your religious titles as ACADEMIC TRAINING or to qualify for a pay raise, YOU WILL LOSE A LOT OF CREDIBILITY."

[Since you kept passing off the D.D. to pretend it as your academic training by listing it under the heading of your Christian EDUCATION, your credibility is toast].

Liars will do everything to desperately clutch at straws in defence of their fraud as you keep doing.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "Since such a small percentage actually give a tenth of their income to the church, non-tithers do more to further the Kingdom of God than so-called tithers. More total money comes from the non-tithers."

Lol, but Gary you know your conclusion is just another lie. Anti-tithers like you find no place in the Church for any semblance of tithing or the giving of a 'tenth'.

Many anti-tithers often complain and grumble about how 'DIFFICULT' it is for them to give a tenth of their income! If a tenth (1 out of 10) is DIFFICULT for the anti-tither, then who are they fooling with your claim to give more than tithers do? Even you have claimed that your own recommendation of 'equal sacrifice' is "MUCH HARDER to achieve, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, than giving ten percent" - and yet we don't see the superlatives in how many anti-tithers have achieved what YOU recommended!

Scroll up to the polls in this hubpage article and see for yourself. To the question "How Often Do You Tithe?", about 2627 people have so far responded that -

(a) they tithe from "Every Paycheck" (72%)

(b) "When they can afford to tithe" (13%)

(c) some tithe "Rarely" (7%)

Put them together and that comes to about 92% who, at least, say they are tithing. Only about 8% of respondents say they "NEVER tithed" - and what does that say about your fallacious "conclusion", Gary?

Anti-tithers who find it 'difficult' and grumble about giving a 'tenth' (1 out of 10) can fool nobody but themselves when they claim to give beyond what they find 'difficult'. This is why you often resort to fallacious claims to hide yourself from reality just so you can sleep well at night.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

With regard to the poll on this hub page, perhaps another poll should be done to see how many of those 2417 people who do tithe do so ‘voluntarily’ and how many tithe fearing that their finances won’t be blessed if they don’t (or indeed, will be cursed if they don’t?)

If people are taught, as they are for the most part, that tithing is an act of ‘obedience’ and therefore ‘required’ by God – then of course this poll is as one would expect. Christians desire to walk in faithfulness and obedience to Christian doctrines. The tithing doctrine as taught in ’tithing’ churches is usually taught along the lines of the 10% BELONGS to God and we are to honour God and trust God with our finances by giving Him the tenth and He will take care of the 90%.

Since you believe that tithing should be VOLUNTARY and but one of several different, acceptable forms of ‘voluntary giving’ – don’t you think it is important to ensure that NOONE IS TITHING UNDER A FALSE SENSE OF COMPULSION OR DURESS?

How do you think people can find out that giving a tenth of their income should be voluntary?


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

Gary's conclusion, from the stats quoted above, that the majority of giving in churches MUST come from non-tithers can be borne out using simple maths.

From the stats quoted: Christians are giving less than 3% of their earnings to church.

Lets imagine a church of 100 people all earning £1500 per month.

Total monthly earnings = 100 x £1500 = £150,000.

4% tithe (evangelical stat) = 4 x £150 = £600

96% don't tithe, but give 2.7% of earnings (estimate)= 96 x £40 = £3840

Total received by the church = £4440, which represents 2.96% of £150,000 earnings.

The non-tithers have thus contributed 86.5% of the total which the church has received, tithers 13.5%.

Though earnings were equalised for simplicity, you cannot deny that Gary's conclusion was a sound one.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

contd.

If you tried to apply the percentages from the hub page poll (72% polled as tithers), into the example of a 100 member church, you do not get a realistic figure.

If 72% of people tithed, and 28% didn't, then the total received by the church would be £ 11,920, 90% from tithers, and amounting to almost 8% of total earnings.

As this percentage of giving is more than double what known stats reveal (less than 3% of earnings), this poll does not produce meaningful results in terms of statistical analysis and is not a useful sample for such analysis - too many unknowns.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

The poll on this hub derives from the article and in no way does it imply tithing under compulsion or duress as anti-tithers often conclude by default.

Many Christians who choose to tithe do so in the understanding that all they have belong to God, and their giving does not end at just 10% of their income.

The anti-tithing belief system preached by many anti-tithers is for the most part "difficult, if not impossible" (as they have claimed several times, ala Gary Arnold). And for all that, how many anti-tithers who read or hear such things have been able to achieve such "difficult" idles? How many?

I'm not the only person who believes in tithing voluntarily; and for the most part, many of the large churches I know that encourage tithing do not preach it the way anti-tithers often fallaciously conclude.

WHY do we NEVER read of anti-tithers who know of churches that preach voluntary tithing? Why is it that anti-tithers never mention and appreciate those churches that have been consistent in their preaching about tithing on a voluntary basis?


Tymon 5 years ago

@ Janet,

As to the conclusion you drew in your maths, what actually does reality bear? Individually, anti-tithers give far less and there's no debate about that.

In a hypothetical case, let's say say the number of respondents (2726 people) are the 'members' of a 'church' (this hub). If 72% give at least 10% of their income, would you draw the same conclusions as that anti-tithers in total give more than those who tithed in this hypothetical example? You can do the same maths and see for yourself.

I see you complained about using the results from this poll (72% tithers of 2726 respondents) as unrealistic. However, in stack contrast to your hypothetical case, we know that anti-tithers in reality cannot claim to give up to a tenth since they find it "difficult" to do so.

Indeed, I agree with you that there are lot of variables ('too many unknowns'). But I don't think we should stretch our imagination in order to bend the results of this poll one way or another. If a greater number of people in a poll say they tithe, that is what the results reveal; and if others say they do not tithe, that again bears the reality of the responses at the other end of the pendulum.

What may be said at the end of day is this: typically, people who tithe will be happy to say so in any tithing poll; while anti-tithers will disavow tithing in anti-tithing polls. Yet, in reality, while tithers are resolved in their commitment to give sacrificially up to a tenth of their income, the typical anti-tither finds it difficult to give at that level (even though he/she claims to give far above a tenth).


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Just what does being a tither mean?

Since different people have different definitions as to what tithing even means, one may claim to be a tither while another, under the same circumstances, may claim to be a non-tither. Example: I have dealt with many on several different blogs who say they always tithe, but they don't tithe any particular percentage. I've seen several pastors comment that when they use the word tithe, they merely mean giving without any percentage attached to it. So when a survey asks "How often do you tithe?" you never know how many interpret that as meaning giving a tenth of something. And even then, a tenth of what? Gross, net, adjusted income? The survey wasn't clear enough for many to even understand what was being asked. That is obvious by some of the comments we see. There are blogs all over the internet where church goers claim to tithe their time instead of their income. Many say it doesn't have to be from your income. So to ask the question how often do you tithe, some will answer every paycheck even if they are giving 1%. Then there are those who, for whatever reason, like to say they tithe, but in fact they don't give a tenth of anything to the church on a regular basis.

I've been in church when the pastor will ask those who tithe to stand. Many stand, but few actually give a tenth of their income. How do I know? Because some of those who have stood up have told me they would have been embarrassed if others thought they didn't tithe.

Tithing has become a "status symbol" in some churches for those who don't know any better. I've been in churches where all tithers are told to get in a line and the pastor accepts each "gift" personally. After each tither is recognized, then everyone else is told to bring their gifts forward and put it in the basket.

I have NEVER attended any church where tithing was taught as voluntary UNTIL after I had met with the pastor and challenged his teaching.

Even a minister at a church I had membership in insisted he was a tither, but when pushed and asked if he tithed on every single paycheck, he said of course not. He had to use his second paycheck each month to pay the rent. In other words, he was really giving 5% a month, not a tenth, and in a class I gave, he claimed that he and his wife for so far in debt he didn't think they could ever get out of debt. Gives 5% but can't pay his bills. That's what a lot of church goers do. Give the money away rather than pay their bills.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your latest rejoinder is simply another excuse that does not add up at all. It is only typical for anti-tithers like you to prevaricate and arrive at fallacious conclusions; but what really are you trying to assert? That no tithing church exists that ever teaches tithing as voluntary? Is that what you're vainly trying to argue for?

Nobody reading this hub is confused about what is presented. The article is clear about what tithing means to the author - "give ten percent of their income" - and it was based on that idea that people responded to the question: "How Often Do You Tithe?" It is obvious from the answer of 72% respondents that they tight from their income, unles you're the only person who does not understand the meaning of "Every Paycheck". Others who responded also understood what the article says; so what is the substance of your ignorant piffling?

Then, as is usual, you try to excuse the reality of the results of the polls by telling your fallacious tall tales. Yet, how is it that anti-tithers NEVER go to churches where believers tithe voluntarily, responsibly and without duress?? Anti-tithers like you often claim that you have NEVER been to churches where tithing is taught as a voluntary exercise, but does that not show your narrow-minded carping for what it is, really?

If your anti-tithing legalism allows for a little honesty, you will find that many tithing churches indeed preach tithing as voluntary. The many Assemblies of God churches I have attended are clear that their tithing is voluntary; as is the same case in my experience of many Baptist and Calvary Chapel churches, besides many others whose materials we read and listen to in various media.

Incidentally, when the anti-tithing brigade at the 'nairaland' forum made a lot of noise with their fallacious claim that no church they know has ever taught tithing as voluntary, what did they say after I pointed out the example of some of the pastors (like Tunde Bakare) in their own domain that actually teach voluntary tighting Nothing of substance above their usual excuses and anti-tithing grumbling!

When folks like you claim you know of no tithing church that teaches a voluntary tight, we know you're only pretending to have done your home work when it's obvious you simply just don't want to face the reality that rubbishes your fallacy.

In hindsight, how many anti-tithers have achieved your own brand of 'difficult, if not impossible' type of giving, which you dubiously claimed for the NT? I realise you no longer sing that tune after it was challenged for its emptiness. When anti-tithers go about fooling themselves about what they CANNOT do, it is little wonder that you would do anything to prevaricate on what these issues.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

I would like to set out the following by way of a comprehensive summary of my view of tithing and Christian giving.

I hope this might be helpful to some, and don't care if some view it as rehashed - it is not personally directed toward them.

I set this out really for consideration by those who have been taught that tithing is compulsory for faithful Christians.

From what I can see, there are three different positions on tithing for Christian believers (the second I only 'discovered' on reading this blog:

1. Tithing is Compulsory – there are blessings for obedience to tithe

- there are curses for disobedience in not tithing

2. Tithing is voluntary - there are blessings if you give 10% of (income?)

- It is neutral if you don’t

3. It is not valid to be called ‘Tithing’ - tithing is OT Law and it is not applicable for NT

believers to give ‘biblical tithes’.

My position is the third one because:

a) there is no doctrinal teaching on tithing in the NT,

b) there is no evidence of NT saints tithing as a precedent for our practice,

c) The Canon of Scripture closed in the 4th Century and so I don’t believe we are at liberty to teach as doctrine things which the Apostolic Fathers did not, though all Scripture is useful for (understanding) doctrine, giving correction and chastisement,

d) tithing under the Law was a specific part of the Levitical system of giving/atonement for sins; no other elements of said sacrificial system of giving has been adopted in the same manner, in a literal application into Christian practice (albeit substituting money instead of food).

Below is a brief look at the ‘system’ of giving which I see in the NT and which I think Christians should be taught to follow. I have added some interpretation in brackets and beneath the scripture references:

Scripture 1) 2 Cor 8:12:

‘For if there is a first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.’

? As long as you are moved to want to give, whatever you can give is acceptable. You can’t give more than you have.

Scripture 2) 2 Cor 8:13-15:

‘For I (Paul) do not mean that others (other churches) should be eased and you burdened (the Corinthian church); but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack (the Judean Saints), that their abundance also may supply your lack – that there be an equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.” ’

? Paul, here, is teaching about giving to meet the needs of others, knowing that there may come a time when you need help to meet your needs, too.

? In this case it was whole churches fundraising to help another church, but the teaching also teaches us that:

o we should always be willing to help each other,

o the better off should help the needy,

o there may come a time when roles are reversed.

o God’s divine provision (see manna from heaven, Ex. 16:18) is so that each individual should have enough for their household to eat (to live on) without one having more than enough and another less than enough.

Scripture 3) 2 Cor 9:5:

‘Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as grudging obligation.’

? This scriptures, again, was about supporting the impoverished Judean Saints in their time of need.

? The point here is that the support of others should be from the heart, in willing response to their needs, put together with forethought and diligence, not haphazard, a last-minute afterthought, forced or coerced.

Scripture 4) 2 Cor 9:6:

‘…he who sows sparingly, will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully, will also reap bountifully.’

? No further explanation need, really, except to say, if you CAN give more than you do, your reward will be less than you might hope for. If you give generously, your reward will be greater.

Scripture 5) 2 Cor 9:7-9:

‘So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written: “He has dispersed abroad, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.” ’

? Whoever wants to give in support of needs, should do so to satisfy their own desire to give and be a blessing – God loves that motivation. Giving to others outside your own comfort zone, giving to the poor wherever they are, counts as righteousness. And God will make His grace abound toward you so that you will have enough (spiritually and materially), and then more than enough (an abundance)to continue to support good works (please read 1 Tim 6:6-10 ...Godliness with contentment is great gain - we should not desire to be rich as those who do fall into temptation and a snare).

Scripture 6) Mark 12:41-44:

‘Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”

? Jesus is looking, not at the amount, but at the level of sacrifice you make to support the work in the kingdom of God. Making comparisons about who gives more or who gives less is not necessary or helpful for us to judge – but the Lord will judge the heart attitudes of all givers. The inference in modern days that the one who gives 10% of earnings or more is somehow better than the one who does not, is not supported by scripture – giving is judged (by God) according to means and the attitude of one’s heart- willing or grudging.

? If giving 10% of earnings is too much for some Christians at some stages of their lives, so what? If one (as Tymon /Gwaine says s/he does) believes that giving is voluntary and according to means, then all believers will be blessed for whatever they give sacrificially, cheerfully and as they purpose in their hearts. God loves a cheerful giver and doesn’t set a price-tag on His blessings.

? So what if a believer can only give 3% or 5% or whatever percentage of earnings on a regular basis? To that individual it may represent 100% of what they have in their hands – all that is left after essential bills are paid. Is 100% not good enough? The widows two mites was all she had. No doubt, for some, giving even £2 or £20 or £200 is all that they have. For others – it is a drop in the ocean even to give 10% - they could give oh so much more but they are stingy and choose not to. Scripture does not set a percentage of earnings as a standard. God blesses our freewill and sacrificial offerings The percentage given, according to scripture, is not the point at all, the point is how much it represents a sacrifice to you to give it, and the motivation you have to give it.

? Those who have an abundance, beyond their immediate needs and a level of comfort, should willingly give of that abundance, (as they purpose in their own hearts) to help supply where others have lack. No one can give more than they have without falling into debt. I can give ALL that I have, do without material comforts and pleasures, and God sees that. The poor amongst us, yes, even in the West, should be supported by our churches – whether these poor are within or outside our walls. Is this the pattern we see in our churches? Does this happen enough, (concerning the poor amongst us) if at all, within some churches?

Scripture 7) Gal 2:21:

‘I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.’

? There is no law that can make us righteous – and tithing is taught


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

Scripture 7) Gal 2:21:

‘I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.’

? There is no law that can make us righteous – and tithing is taught (for the most part) as a Christian law , as if we are bound to tithe to be blessed financially by God. Tithing as a law is contrary to grace.

? A good pastor friend of mine, whom I love dearly, when challenged (by me) about the necessity for Christians to tithe said that he had two pillars in his Christian faith THAT HE WAS PROUD OF: one was tithing, the other was not drinking alcohol - he had lived by those two standards all his Christian life as this was how he had been taught. He was not willing to consider that tithing was not a Christian requirement as he would feel as if his pillars had been removed and that he was not so far different from the unsaved.

Again, as I said, this is a summary of my thoughts, without going into exegical detail, but I hope those, especially those who have always been taught that tithing is compulsory, will read this, pray and ask God to reveal His truth to their hearts.

God bless the saints of His church.

Janet


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

I said, "I have NEVER attended any church where tithing was taught as voluntary UNTIL after I had met with the pastor and challenged his teaching."

I get quoted as saying, "When folks like you claim you know of no tithing church that teaches a voluntary tight, we know you're only pretending to have done your home work when it's obvious you simply just don't want to face the reality that rubbishes your fallacy."

Did I say anywhere that there are no churches that teach voluntary tithing?

Some, in particular ONE on this blog likes to put words in my mouth. He/she likes to twist what I say, change what I say, add to and/or subtract from what I say. WOW! Just like some pastors I know!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Let me clarify my statement:

Did I say anywhere that I know of no churches that teach voluntary tithing?

Here is one of my problems. I have attended churches where tithing "is voluntary," because, as the pastor puts it, no one is going to take the tenth from you if you don't "voluntarily" give it. BUT, those pastors also threaten the Malachi curse if you don't "voluntarily" give the tenth, and they also use Malachi to say you are robbing God if you don't "voluntarily" give the tenth. In my opinion, that is NOT teaching voluntary tithing.

Of course I know of pastors who actually teach that tithing ended at the cross, but teach we should or can voluntarily tithe today. In my opinion, these pastors don't understand the Biblical tithe.

While I say NO ONE can tithe today, those who take Tymon's position should be telling me that I AM a tither whether I know it or not since I give beyond a tenth of my income on a consistent basis.


Tymon 5 years ago

Janet,

Please don't sweat it. Your rejoinders are hunkering on the same tired, old repetitive exercises as you have argued before and again, and it would be unnecessary for me to outline my answers in like manner to repeat myself.

The so-called 'system' which you see in the NT is already taught in the OLD Testament. That does not make Christians to become Jews under Judaism; but it reinforces the fact that NT principles of giving are based precisely on what the OT teaches. I do not find anything "new" in the so-called 'NT principles' that many anti-tithers argue for - unless they are affirming they are wholly ignorant of what has been taught in the OT.

At no time have I ever argued against Christians giving as they purposed in their hearts - unless, again, you simply never read my previous comments before claiming to have done so. In very fact, it is because i have consistently maintained that giving should be of one's volition that Gary fallaciously tried to take issues with me on that! He had a huge problem with my position on leaving believers the choice to determine for themselves, while he is not prepared to let others also choose to tithe.

But then, the magical gymnastics often featuring in anti-tithing hubris also shows up in your comments, Janet. How does "3% or 5%" represent '100% of what they have in their hands'? Just how? How do you magically transform 3% or 5% to be representing 100%, and yet we read anti-tithers who grumble about someone tithing anything else if it is not exactly 10%? That '3% or 5%' representing 100% is at best a trivial joke.

I think for the most part, the fallacious manner in which anti-tithing arguments are couched is the reason why they can fool nobody but themselves. If 1 out of 10 is "DIFFICULT" (if not impossible) for the anti-tither, please tell me how they can convince anyone that they give BEYOND what is difficult for them! It is this shameless underhanded manner of mental gymnastics that makes the anti-tithng agenda the fallacious propaganda that it has been all along.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your question: "Did I say anywhere that I know of no churches that teach voluntary tithing?"

Are you implying by that question that you indeed know there are churches that teach voluntary tithing? If yes, why is it that you geered all your energies into singing the fallacious song of anti-tithers as if only compulsory/legalistic tithes have been taught in all the churches you know?

What you do say is as important as what you failed to clearly say. If, for example, you state as you did 19 months ago that "The organized church has become nothing but a corrupt business. I don't mean to say that every local church is corrupt, BUT I YET TO ATTEND ONE THAT ISN'T", by implication you will be saying that you have never attented ANY church that is not corrupt - including yours! If your own local church is part of the churches you have attended, surely no one would arrest me for concluding that even your own church is as corrupt as all the churches you attended!

As the saying goes: say what you mean and mean what you say - and where you do not make yourself clear enough, you can't blame anyone who reads what you say if you aimed to be meaningless!

Barely 14 months ago, you publicly stated on this hub that: "EVERY church I have attended teaches the LEGALISTIC tithe" - and I cannot find any reference in your comments where you have appreciated churches that teach that tithing is voluntary.

Now, if you knew of churches where tithing is taught BUT NOT 'LEGALISTIC', why is it that such churches are NEVER APPRECIATED in your arguments? That is why I asked if you were trying to assert that no church existed that ever taught tithes as voluntary - but you and all other anti-tither propagandists I have known have only been hooting about your fallacious mantra and see nothing beyond that!

Just 7 weeks ago, I re-iterated that "If a Christian desires to express his/her giving through VOLUNTARY tithing, what anathema is in that?" The fact that people have known tithing to be voluntary is not coming from just me alone. I have long observed that many Christians express their tithing on voluntary basis, as the following examples reveal -

(a) 2 years ago, Maraiya Storm commented that tithing "is VOLUNTARY, and it has to come from the heart."

(b) 17 months ago, you quoted some dictionaries (e.g., The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition - 1994) that define the word 'tithe' in various ways, including that it is a tenth part of one's annual income contributed VOLUNTARILY.

(c) Other reknowned sources such as Wikipedia note that 'TODAY, tithes (or tithing) are NORMALLY VOLUNTARY" - which should make anti-tithers wonder how they have never known such a fact even where it is widely recognized!

So, for anti-tithers to have ignored all these and continued to preach their mantra of 'compulsory' or 'legalistic' tithing as if that is the only experience Christians know about tithing is both fallacious, dubious and insincere on the part of anti-tithers like you.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary:

Your quote: "While I say NO ONE can tithe today, those who take Tymon's position should be telling me that I AM a tither whether I know it or not since I give beyond a tenth of my income on a consistent basis."

Lol. Just shut up rather than keep exposing your folly! Are you not the same troll who argues against any semblance of tithing in the Church? If you argue that NO ONE can tithe today, why is it up to us to be "telling" you that you are a tither? Have you become so intoxicated with your inane propaganda that you do not know where you belong and now have to wait for us to tell you?

You do not need anyone "telling" you anything, nor do tithers need you to tell them anything. When anti-tithing prapagandists and trolls who have lost all sense of their bearing, they begin to beg for others to put a nice little tag on them! Please pack yourself to your cubicle - that piffle in your quote is the cheapest thing I read on the net!


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

I can explain and explain and explain. But some will never understand. Some just never get the point.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Tymon

I saw some time ago that your only bent is to argue, for argument's sake. I also see increasingly, that your manner is very unbecoming of a Christian. There is a way to conduct yourself in a debate and your way is seriously out of order. I do strongly advise that you take a good look at yourself in the mirror, as online you do not come across as an honourable person at all.

Forget all your talk of 'ad hominem' attacks, fallacious arguments, excuses, piffle, grumbling, whinging etc. etc. etc. - heard it all before and I think your finger is pointing the wrong way. It is you, O Tymon, that fits the bill of all the above.

The fruit of your lips (pen) is very bitter indeed; I can only conclude that you have a serious problem.

So, this is now my FINAL rejoinder, because you are not the kind of person worth debating with; you have shown that you are a divisive person, speaking evil of people unnecessarily and that debating with you is unprofitable and useless - Titus 3:9-11 most certainly applies to you.

So, I can see that maths is clearly NOT your strong point. You cannot see how 3% or 5% of someone's earnings could be deemed 100% of what someone has left to give?

I think even a child could understand that giving ALL of something means giving 100%. And if all that you have after necessities are paid is 3% or 5% of your earnings, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have.

May God in His mercy, grant you wisdom and may you endeavour to develop the fruit of His Spirit.

Goodbye Tymon/Gwaine

@ Gary

God bless you richly. Thank you for all your posts and helpful insight. Watch the company you keep!! May His joy be your strength.

Janet


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

@Janet,

Hope to see you around the blogs again someday. It's been a pleasure meeting you on this blog. A few years ago I was a member of a church in Fresno, California USA where one of the ministers was a Janet Chandler.

May God Bless you always, Janet.


Janet Chandler 5 years ago

@ Gary

I'm sure she must have been a very nice person, but, no, it wasn't me!

I haven't visited the US in over 10 years, but hubbie and I and some other pastor friends have been talking about planning a visit in the next year or two.

Who knows, maybe we might bump into each other and chat about the good old days! :)

Janet


Tymon 5 years ago

@Janet,

One thing I have come to detest in anti-tithing propaganda is their penchant to shamelessly lie and make false accusations that they cannot prove.

When I started discussing this subject with anti-tithers, it didn't take long to notice that all they do is make assertions which they cannot sustain - nor will they answer simple questions when their hermeneutics is closely examined. If that is all there is to the sort of jerrymandering one reads in anti-tithing propaganda, what susbtance is there to your allegation that I argue just for the sake of it?

So now, after all your pretentions to dialogue, you finally reveal afterall you have had nothing worth reading to present. I only wondered how you could magically turn 3% or 5% to represent 100%. All you did was slobber and then explain nothing - and that says so much for your superior knowledge?

Thanks - but even a child knows that anyone passing off that kind of 'mathematics' is simply trying to hoodwink the unsuspecting. Try another hat-trick, and praise yourself on top ot it, if you may ... but 3% or 5% does NOT represent 100% - not in heaven, not on earth, and definitely not under the earth. That is the sort of undehanded duplicity that anti-tithers champion and end up proving absolutely nothing.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "I can explain and explain and explain. But some will never understand. Some just never get the point."

Explain? Nope, you rather can lie, lie and lie - that is why we will never "understand" how you could then dress up to preach 'truth' to ANYBODY.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

We've known for some time now that Tymon is extremely weak in math.

5% of 0 equals 100% of 0.

5% of a dollar represents 100% of a nickel.

5% of a persons gross income might represent 100% of their giving to a church.

There are so many, many times that 3% or 5% might represent 100%.

Simple grade-school math.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

My maths skills are not based on your anti-tithing fables or fantasies, thanks. We know anti-tithers champion duplicity, that is why you try to continue deceiving yourself with that mathematical gymnastics through your propaganda.

Janet had commented that "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

She earlier complained that I could not see"how 3% or 5% of someone's earnings could be deemed 100% OF WHAT SOMEONE HAS LEFT to give" - and she's right, for I could not see how that could be in REALITY, other than the fairy tales that have featured in your arguments.

From her comments as above, what she was essentially arguing by what someone has left "after necessities are paid" is simply the 'net income' - that is, what is left of someone's earnings after tax and other deductions.

Now, my questioning that assumption is simply for her - and YOU - to show us HOW someone's net income is either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY. That is what I have consistently challenged, and all you guys have done is prevaricate on the reality of such an argument in order to preach your anti-tithing fiction.

We know that no anti-tither gives their net income to any church on a regular basis. NONE! We also know that nobody can claim in REALITY that their net income is a mere 3% or 5% of their gross income. And we know that no anti-tither can lie to anybody that they give 100% of their gross or net earnings to anybody. So from where are you guys getting your mathematical gymnastics to foster your anti-tithing propaganda?!?

If all you ever do is make arguments for your anti-tithing myth rather than face REALITY, should we wonder why the results of the polls in this hub remains a problem to you and your lot?


femtey 5 years ago

I want to say thank you to Gary Arnold for all his analysis and comments about tithing. I have always been wary about how Pastors in the christian churches of today emphase on tithing by quoting that infamous verses in malachai. My wife has always been a "tither" for the past 15 years. In other words she has now nearly tithed herself into bankruptcy while the church pastors are laughing all the way to the banks.

I wish to say you must continue the good works and the scriptures quoted are really an eye opener.


Tymon 5 years ago

No one needs to blame their bankruptcy or debts on how they give. If giving '1 out of 10' (or a tenth) will bring you to the point of brankruptcy, then you cannot convince anyone in your analysis that you're a better giver beyond that level - which is one reason why anti-tithing 'sacrificial giving' is a myth.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon has made up his/her own definitions of "Gross Income" and "Net Income."

Tymon said, "Janet had commented that "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

Janet's math is correct.

That is why I have said over and over again that if you don't define WHAT is being tithed, tithing is meaningless. One pastor says to tithe on your gross income. Another says net income. In most cases neither pastor even knows the correct definition of gross income or net income.

Since Tymon insists that tithe mearly means a tenth, then why is Tymon debating whether gross, net, etc.? If I have $100 left after paying my bills, I can give a tenth of the $100 and say, I tithed on that $100, OR, since Tymon doesn't define tithe past being a tenth, I can say I tithed, period, without specifying what I tithed on.

If someone says they tithe on their gross income, and they are correct in their math, then they have given a tenth of their wages (and all other income), before any deductions, PLUS they must add to their wages all fringe benefits, including what the employer has paid for their retirement plan, medical plan, etc. etc. I know of no one who adds back in their fringe benefits. Therefore, they LIE when they say they tithe their gross income.

That is why "tithing" means NOTHING today. In the Old Testament, God SPECIFIED what to tithe. God didn't leave it up to the farmers to decide how much to tithe, he spelled it out. He spelled it out for the herdsmen.

Since Tymon leaves it up to each individual to decide what to tithe, then Tymon needs to stop judging how others decide to tithe.

But Tymon is limited in his/her understanding of what has been said on this blog.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Many pastors make up their own definition of tithing. I have been in churches where the pastors says you tithe on your gross income PLUS all gifts and inheritances. And the teach it as though it is Biblical.

First, in the Old Testament, the inheritance was NOT tithed. The Israelites inheritance was the promised land with everything on it. They tithed ONLY on what God increased on that inherited land - crops and animals. They did NOT give back to God a tenth of the land they inherited.

Are pastors who teach that the scriptures say you tithe on all your income including gifts and inheritances really that ignorant, OR are they just plain dishonest?

Are pastors who teach voluntary tithing but throw in Malachi 3 as part of that teaching really that ignorant, OR are they just plain dishonest?

It is nice to know that they are some honest pastors who don't twist, add to, or subtract from God's Word.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Yes, it is nice to know that there are some honest pastors - but your pastor is not one of them! If your pastor could encourage you to lie about your 'Doctor of Divinity' claimed as part of your EDUCATION, and you followed his "advice", we can be sure how dishonest are the 'pastors' you've been hanging out with!

And for the record, do you mind ending your tomfoolery about my gender? My usernames across blogs and forums do not suggest female ('she') - not even in the US as the clever lie you continue to deceive yourself with all along. I've always been male, and now you can keep your transgender fallacy to your enclave, thanks. :)

Now, after your hypentensions between net and gross incomes, you didn't show anything of substance to counter what I highlighted earlier about your mathematical gymnastics to foster your anti-tithing propaganda. HOW is someone's net income either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY?? Why is that simple question forever enigmatic to you and your lot? Just HOW?!?

When you can get off your illusion and face reality for once, then and only then will you see the myth of anti-tithing 'sacrifical giving'. If giving '1 out of 10' (or a tenth) is a huge problem for anti-tithers, you will only be deceiving yourself in claiming to be a better giver beyond that - whether from net or gross income.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon said, "HOW is someone's net income either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY??"

No one on here ever said it did. That all came from you misquoting Janet or me. Neither of us ever said that.

I left the church where the pastor advised me to use my DD degree. I should have known better. He also taught tithing. That should have clued me in to his dishonesty, but I had just started researching the topic.

You again misquote that anyone of us ever said giving 1 out of ten is a hugh problem for anti-tithers. I never said it. Janet never said it. You keep bringing up things we never said.

Giving a tenth is absolutely NO problem for me. Giving 20% of my income is NO problem for me. But for many that I know, giving 1% is a BIG problem for them since they can't make it even if they give NOTHING. Do you believe that those who have to get help from a friend or family member to make it through the month should be giving a tenth of their little income? Is it right for someone to give to the church and then need to ask a friend or family member for help with their expenses? The unemployment rate is very high here in the US, and I know those who are going to college to better themselves while working part-time to try and survive. Would you recommend they be giving to the church, OR would you recommend the church give to them?

I don't believe God is happy with how the churches are being run today. Most take much and give little.

I honestly believe that a large percentage of pastors are committing fraud. They are running a scam.

Jeremiah 12:10 (KJV) Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22 (KJV) The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "Giving a tenth is absolutely NO problem for me. Giving 20% of my income is NO problem for me. But for many that I know, giving 1% is a BIG problem for them since they can't make it even if they give NOTHING."

Yes, the many who have a BIG problem giving 1% fall into your anti-tithing myth os "sacrificial giving". Did you not preach that NT giving was "DIFFICULT, if not impossible"? Now what do you expect from such folks before grumbling about their 1% and claiming yours at 20%?

When will your anti-tithing propaganda take a rest for plain honesty? What do you gain from all these fraud you're peddling in public?


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

I did not misquote either you or Janet. The quote I drew from Janet was as precisely as she stated in her comment (except my emphasis in capitals). Here again:

"if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

The only thing I did there was highlight in capitals what I was questioning - and that has been the issue. So, unless you are mentally challenged that you can no longer understand simple comprehension - or you just want to keep lying - I can see no basis for your allegation that I misquoted either you or Janet.

And no one should be bothered about your leaving any church - at least, you acknowledge that your pastor was dishonest ("his dishonesty", you said). Afterall, there is no church that you have ever attended that is not corrupt - and here is your quote on that:

"The organized church has become nothing but a corrupt business. I don't mean to say that every local church is corrupt, BUT I YET TO ATTEND ONE THAT ISN'T" (your quote from 19 months ago).

By implication, you have never attended ANY church that is not corrupt, and all churches that you had attended up until then were corrupt - including yours!

So leaving one more church where your pastor was dishonest does not present you as better if you could brazenly follow his lies when you knew better about your D.D. His teaching tithing is not your problem - your inclination to follow and use a lie personally has been your problem, even if that advice to lie might have come from an anti-tither.

It is because of your predilection to dishonesty that you get this exposure to uncover your fraud. Lie some more.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Now, this quote from you earlier is another magical lie, sir:

"If someone says they tithe on their gross income, and they are correct in their math, then they have given a tenth of their wages (and all other income), before any deductions, PLUS they must add to their wages all fringe benefits, including what the employer has paid for their retirement plan, medical plan, etc. etc."

Let's unravel the mysterious fables in your assertion above.

The argument you make that "they must add ALL fringe benefits" etc., etc., when considering deductions from gross income is simply another anti-tithing manufactured propaganda and duplicity - it is simply not true, even in the US.

Add "ALL" fringe benefits? "ALL"?? You call yourself an accountant and you have NEVER heard of 'non-taxable fringe benefits' in the US? If indeed there are benefits which are non-taxable or excluded from gross income, how then are you asserting that "they MUST add ALL fringe benefits"? What sort of manufactured lie are you involved in today?

While an employee's gross income would include certain benefits, the IRS designates a number of fringe benefits which are not taxable as gross income if they are benefits available to all employees of a company. A few of the fringe benefits excluded from taxable gross income are:

(a) benefits which are of no additional cost to employer services

(b) qualified employee discounts

(c) working condition fringes

(d) de minimus fringe

(e) qualified transportation fringe

(f) qualified moving expense reimbursement

Further, for tax years beginning on or after January 1, 2005, gross income of an employee DOES NOT include amounts paid by an employer for educational assistance on behalf of an employee up to a maximum of $5,250 per calendar year!

Gross income does not include compensation for Active Service in a Combat Zone.

Also, according to the Legal Information Institute's §106 ('Contributions by employer to accident and health plans'), the general rule is -

"Except as otherwise provided in this section, gross income of an employee DOES NOT include employer-provided coverage under an accident or HEALTH PLAN."

Many other fringe benefits are not included in gross income - in the USA!!

In view of all these, HOW is it that anti-tithing propagandists like you are claiming that "they must add ALL fringe benefits" in gross income considered under tax deductions?

How far will your anti-tithing lies carry you, Gary? Why are you hell-bent to deceive yourself and those who gullibly fall for your dubious claims?


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

"if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

And there is NOTHING wrong with that statement. It is correct.

Did you even read what I said you misquoted? Apparently not because you just quoted something that I AGREED that Janet wrote.

Tymon said, "By implication, you have never attended ANY church that is not corrupt, and all churches that you had attended up until then were corrupt - including yours!"

I no longer attend ANY church services because of the corruption. When I find a decent church that isn't corrupt, I might start attending church services again. In the mean time, I have "church" by meeting with friends where we discuss the scriptures and fellowship. No need to attend a corporate business run organization that calls itself a church.

It is because of my honesty and knowledge that I have so many give me compliments on my teaching.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

Your quote: "And there is NOTHING wrong with that statement. It is correct."

Excuse me? If that is 'correct', how come you accused me earlier of having misquoted you and never showed the misquotes? How do you accuse someone of "misquoting" you when that was not the case? Your inclination to be fraudulent never ceases to amaze me. Yet, for all that, how did you deal with the issue I highlighted in her comments?

____

Your quote: "I no longer attend ANY church services because of the corruption."

Oh, very convenient ... nice. You hypocrite no longer attend ANY church services, and yet you have the nerve to tell other Christians what should be done in their church lives and commitments, not so?

There! I've long suspected something is strangely in the air about anti-tithing propagandists like you, but it was only a matter of time before you confessed how real your 'christianity' was.

____

Your quote: "It is because of my honesty and knowledge that I have so many give me compliments on my teaching."

If compliments are all you're seeking, say so. I guess you've quickly forgotten the warning Jesus gave in Luke 6:26 about self-praising false prophets?

How many would compliment your asseveration about adding 'ALL' fringe benefits to gross income, when we know that is simply a dubious idea that does not bear REALITY? How many would compliment your lies about the 'D.D.' which you blame on your dishonest pastor? How many have yet complimented you on the myth of your anti-tithing propaganda of falsely teaching that NT giving is 'difficult, if not impossible'? And all these fallacies are what you attribute to 'honesty and knowledge'? I can't laugh, please.

A 'compliment' seeker who pretends to be holding 'church' while no longer attending ANY church services is not worth the salt of an informed and honest Christian.


Gary Arnold 5 years ago

Tymon,

You just don't seem to have much knowledge when it comes to these issues.

What does "taxable income" have to do with "tithable income?" In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income." There is no line to report such because some of the gross income may not be subject to the income tax laws. But the pastor, in his great ignorance, uses the term gross income.

It's a waste of time debating with someone who just doesn't have the education and/or knowledge to understand what is being said.

May God Bless you.


Tymon 5 years ago

@Gary,

God bless you, too. But why are you sweating it?

I never once confused between tithes and taxes - and you know me very well on such things. If you want to treat tithes like tax on incomes, please yourself - but asking me what they have to do with each other is a fool's errand on your part, since you can't drag me into that hubris of yours.

Now, you claimed that, 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income."'

Really? So, what about 'Form 1040' - "U.S. Individual Income Tax Return"? Are you asserting that there's nowhere on Form 1040 where US wage earners report any form of 'gross income'?

On page 1 of Form 1040, you will find the "total income" - and that is known as your "gross income", sir.

If that simple fact is 'difficult, if not impossible' for you to understand, then here is a quote from the US Department of Housing and Urban Development (emphasis mine):

'IRS Form 1040 requires reporting of certain kinds of income, which are then added together to constitute what is referred to as "GROSS INCOME." From the gross income figure, certain deductions are then taken to arrive at an "adjusted gross income."

Get it now?

When applicable deductions are made on the "total income" (the same as "gross income"), the result is called 'Adjusted Gross Income' (AGI) - also on page 1 of Form 1040. The AGI is the figure you write at the bottom of page 1 of that Form, and then copy again to the top of page 2.

Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) is income from taxable sources (gross income) less tax deductions that are allowable whether or not you itemize deductions on your tax return. In other words, AGI is actually your "gross income minus applicable deductions". Therefore, you cannot accurately compute your AGI if you have not first found the figure for your "gross income" (which is the same as your "total income") on your Form 1040.

Any more lies from you, Gary?

____

As to your other claim: "There is no line to report such because some of the gross income may not be subject to the income tax laws."

Well, well! If you knew that some of the gross income may not be subject to income tax laws, WHY then did you earlier intone that income earners 'must add to their wages ALL fringe benefits' when you knew that claim has no substance in REALITY? Just why do you keep recycling obvious fallacies like that?

One would just imagine the series of shamefully misleading assertions you make in public to say so much about your 'honesty and knowledge'. Don't sweat it, Gary.


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