Truth and Religion

If you could definitively affirm or debunk the alleged resurrection of Jesus Christ, would you?~Chasuk


When a fellow hubber asked the above question, I answered flippantly..lamely, but a couple of the other answers were more thoughtful and prompted me to mull over it. You see, I thought at first there could be only one response, but the following answers caught my eye:

No and not because of my own beliefs of Christianity, but because the idea of believing in a higher power is something that gives people something to hold onto. Taking that away by debunking it would devastate to many people that depend on a religion to get through their days on Earth. If it were to be affirmed I think I would just be really surprised and would take a second look at my religious standings. Other than that I think it's best we leave religion to it's self and stop trying to prove or disprove any sort of religion as being a fraud or not.~ mylife=adventure

I would not debunk it because people of faith would rationalize it another way and label me a heretic. If I could confirm it I would because it would blow a lot of peoples minds. ~John B. Badd

Isn't truth more important than propagating a major lie...even if it's a comforting one? If the resurrection were proven to be true it would turn my view of reality upside down....but I'd still rather know about it.

I'm also surprised someone would be so worried about being branded a heretic in the 21st century that they would sit on a significant piece of information like that. So what if they branded you a heretic John B Badd? Why should religion require a lid on truth?

Then there were others who wrote that they would reveal the truth but didn't think it would make any difference. People would continue to believe even in the face of concrete evidence.

All this leads me to consider how important truth really is to religion...and I have to conclude, not very.


Caravaggio's "Doubting Thomas"
Caravaggio's "Doubting Thomas"

What's Truth Anyway?

Isn't it just a worldview? Why should a religious truth be less valid than a scientific one? Can we even know what truth is?

Only religion claims to be in possession of definitive, unique truth. Science on the other hand, only lays claim to provisional truths, ie; the most reasonable conclusion we can come to given the available evidence. However in real, practical terms, If we want reliable, objective knowledge about reality, we look to science, not spiritual intuition. This is because all religion has is a claim to truth, with nothing to substantiate it. It's this assumption of truth that seperates religion from reason. Perhaps we can never know a definitive truth, but a mere claim to truth is not any sort of truth at all...not even a provisional one. It might be true, with no evidence behind it, is a long way from it's highly likely to be true because the evidence supports the claim..

Religion can offer us things science cannot, such as comfort, guidance, consolation and the hope of an afterlife..but these are not truths, they're religious perspectives that work on assumptions. They may contain truths, such as good moral advice or accurate observations about humanity..but these are really not unique to religion. The same truths can be found elsewhere and what is unique to religion, eg; supernatural beings and events, an afterlife, etc cannot be observed, tested and proven and thus remain only claims to truth.

Of course to many people, who have faith in the assumption, this doesn't seem to matter. To them it is truth. Well okay. But is mylife=adventure right when she writes ; I think it's best we leave religion to it's self and stop trying to prove or disprove any sort of religion as being a fraud or not.


A Special Pass?

I don't believe she is right. To those whom truth is important..who believe that it matters, it is reasonable to challenge religious claims. When people make important decisions on the basis of it, sometimes good ones, sometimes bad - even engaging in conflicts, committing acts of violence, controlling lives and other sundry evils, all in the name of religion, isn't it important to know whether it's true or not?

Any claim to truth, especially one that has so much significance to so many people, should be held up to the light and scrutinised and if any part of it can be shown to be a fraud, it should be...and the same of course applies if any part of it can be shown to be true. So Chasuk, if any evidence ever crops up one way or the other, then of course it should be revealed...come what may.


The truth will set you free. But first, it will p*ss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem



Our First Truth

A Word About Relativism

You might like pink and I blue...you might think hamburgers taste better than steak and that would be a truth...for you. For tastes and opinions relativism works fine but as a philosophical perspective, it renders truth meaningless:


Protagoras: Truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion.
Socrates: You mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?
Protagoras: Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Truth is subjective.
Socrates: Do you really mean that? That my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?
Protagoras: Indeed I do.
Socrates: My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you, Mr. Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, then you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy.

Protagoras: You are quite correct, Socrates.



Mr. A. "I can jump out of a aeroplane at 300 feet without a parachute and no harm can come to me at all. It's true I tell you."


Ms B. "No you can't. It's highly likely you would be harmed That is the truth."


If we don't allow for the possibility of objective truth then both of these statements must be equally true. Is that workable? The laws of physics are universal...we know if you jump out of an aeroplane without a parachute you very likely will be harmed. I would call that an objective truth......at least for the time being.

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Comments 47 comments

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

AKA Winston just wrote a hub similar to this one called Fact or Fiction.

I agree with you Jane and if someone actually can prove things then they should. What's surprising is that the same people that believe in religion also go out of their way to debunk magicians and expose "falsehoods". They always want their cake and to be able to eat it too.

There are several drugs that simulate death and then later the person miraculously comes back to life. Jesus probably wasn't the first to use this trick and he certainly wasn't the last. All of the bible miracles have been explained, yet no one listens. They are just so gullible.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hi Austin,

Thanks for that. Yes, some people seem to be able to suspend disbelief when it comes to religion, yet are as sceptical as the next guy when it comes to other things. Mylife=adventure's answer gives us a clue...*believing in a higher power is something that gives people something to hold onto*.... must be more important to believers than whether or not it's true.

There's only Christian heresay that the resurrection took place at all, but even if it did, as you say, there would be other explanations to explore before accepting a supernatural force.


Pcunix profile image

Pcunix 5 years ago from SE MA

Truth and religion: separated at birth and enemies forever.


GNelson profile image

GNelson 5 years ago from Florida

There should be no doubt that religion fills a need and sometimes even helps us cope. But if you can get people to believe something on faith, it is easier to get them to believe something else on faith like the Republican Party is good for the middle class. Arguing against faith with facts is like dissolving a rock with water. It is going to take a while.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Thanks pc and Gnelson, for those pertinent comments...:) Who was it who said 'the truth has a way of outing itself'? I do believe that...even if it takes an eternity.


Micky Dee profile image

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Yo Jane! Great right. I choose to worship a benevolent God. If "God" is not loving, caring, compassionate for all God has created- if God is not- I do not serve. There is no point. I have accused God of incompetence for creating or allowing a lot of the foolishness here on our planet. Like- creating a Micky Dee.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that the people who lead America DO NOT- they absolutely DO NOT believe in God. They absolutely DO NOT believe in a reckoning. But there is a reckoning coming. Call it karma. Call it God's revenge. Call it apple pie but there is a day of reckoning coming. So- to me, it doesn't matter how people perceive the world and God.

It will never bother me if people do not believe in the resurrection of Christ. It does not take Christ to die on the cross at all for me to follow His ORDER. It does not matter one iota if Jesus got up from His tomb. To many Christians - it will matter. It's the foundation of their faith. I do not need this. I do not need Jesus to die one second for me, for me to do the right thing.

As a matter of fact- I think the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus is distracting from His ORDER. The law of Jesus IS NOT TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS GOT UP FROM THAT TOMB! The resurrection of Jesus is NOT the LAW. The LAW above ALL laws is -LOVE ONE ANOTHER. LOVE EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. This is the law of Jesus. The law of Jesus is not to live a life of selfishness and evil, only to say at the last second, "I'm sorry", and all will be forgiven. This concept is dumb no matter what faith you have.

My faith in God comes from being in a foxhole in a war. My faith comes from being falsely accused by a false government that more Americans WORSHIP over a benevolent God. For anyone to think for a millisecond that the American government is real, and God is not, is more than folly. There is nothing on our Earth hardly as false as this government for the rich. God is more real than America. This is smoke and mirrors. This "land of the free" America is the most imprisoned nation on Earth. I will believe that Jesus got out of that tomb, ran, flipped some somersaults, gymnastics and planted a perfect TEN before I will believe in this United States of the Apathetic. Be a Muslim. Be a Christian. Be an atheist. The law above laws is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

When the religious or atheists abandon the Golden Rule, there is nothing but cults. When Americans abandon the Golden Rule- it's just another country on the way out.

There is a train coming. It's God. It's karma. It's science. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. There is a train coming. We will reap what we sow.

Thank you for this hub. Great write!


Rod Marsden profile image

Rod Marsden 5 years ago from Wollongong, NSW, Australia

Not bad Jane. A difficult subject.

The truth is always a difficult area. In science it can change when new discoveries are made that make the discoveries reached by earlier experiments questionable. There was a time not long ago when people believed that rising miasma, the stink from the polluted ground and the polluted water, was the cause of deadly sickness. It seemed open and shut. A piece of meat that smells bad can make you very ill. Water that smells bad can also make you very ill. The British created in the 19th Century the most impressive sewage system imaginable to take bad smelling water away and to protect the pure, good smelling water people drank. As it turned out the bad smells were and are only an indicator that something is wrong. When the microscope became powerful enough scientists were actually able to see the real culprits. Of course the London sewage system created in the 19th Century was still a very good idea and other major cities throughout the world also followed suit.

In history there is rarely absolute truth. Sometimes we simply do not have all the facts and the information we do have is suspect. Sometimes we have an overabundance of information to sift through and some of it is contradictory. People lie in diaries and in official documents or they only give the half truth they think we want from them.

As for belief I am more likely to believe in karma good and bad than in a lot of other things tied in with religion. I knew a teacher once who came to work in a high school in country NSW. This school had a fairly large Aboriginal population. One sports day this teacher saw an Aboriginal student about to throw a rock at a bird in a tree. The teacher told the student that if he kills it he should eat it. This puzzled the boy and he asked another teacher what was meant by that. Within a week what the teacher had said got around the school. The result? The Aboriginal elders who visited the school came to look upon the teacher in a different way. As it turned out, it was against the local Aboriginal beliefs to kill without a reason such as for food. This is part of the hunter's code the teacher had grown up with but he had no idea the local Aborigines had the same code. It was one of those things. What you might call dumb luck or good karma.

It is hard to know how truth fits in with religion. The content of the bible seems to be in flux. The King James version has been dumbed down but in the dumbing down I believe it has been altered to the point where you have to wonder just how important are the words anyway. You go there and the next thing you have to wonder is how can something be holy and yet not figuratively cast in stone.


jrsearam profile image

jrsearam 5 years ago from San Juan, PR

Jane,

Your words have struck an extremely sensitive nerve, perhaps because I am regularly confronted with the question you have so eloquently answered. I have not always expressed the truth as I saw it. Like mylife=adventure, empathy has gotten the best of me on occasion and the truth has been surrendered in favor of what I interpreted as an act of compassion. I don' t believe in absolutes. Life has taught me that for every rule there is at least one exception and speaking the truth as one sees it, while an apparently perpetual moral obligation, isn't always the most beneficial course of action. This is particularly true in matters of faith. Wether to speak the truth or not is a question of context best illustrated with the following contrasting examples. If I possessed irrefutable proof that the resurrection never took place or for that matter, that all religion based on the belief of supernatural phenomenon is little more than a human construct and I was face to face with a religious fanatic on his way to committing some horrifying deed in the name of his God, I would expeditiously present him with my proof. In this case, religious belief provides no benefit to the individual or society as a whole. On the other hand, if while in possession of this proof, my grandmother, for whom I would suffer the torments of Hell, held my hand on her deathbed and with eyes full of fear asked me if I believed in Heaven, I would give an Oscar worthy performance aimed at easing her fears and allowing her to pass in peace. There is no denying the value of religious belief in this case, at least to my grandmother, myself and all those who loved her. The elaborate lie I would construct might make me sick but it would still her fears and give her the hope se needed to die in peace. I would never regret that. Anyway, I hope you don't brand me a liar or excessively "relativistic" based on the preceding. I too am passionate about the truth and do believe that it does set you free. The question is, free from what? Thanks for the thoughts, it's always stimulating to drop by...JR


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City

"For though we love both the truth and our friends, piety requires us to honor the truth first." --Aristotle

I wonder how people found purpose during the many centuries that Christianity never existed, and in the many places where Christianity was never practiced?

Great job as always, Jane.


Rod Marsden profile image

Rod Marsden 5 years ago from Wollongong, NSW, Australia

secularist10, within some of the so-called Christian plays of the Middle Ages you will find, hidden but still recognizable, the old beliefs to do with the seasons.

Family and purpose have often gone together whatever your faith may or may not be.


Joyus Crynoid profile image

Joyus Crynoid 5 years ago from Eden

"But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Micky, gee that's the longest comment you've ever left me. Thankyou. "We reap what we sow"....I suppose so, although some of us get a bad harvest whether we've sown anything good or not and vice-versa.

I can't share your faith but I can appreciate your description of it and the dissillusionment you feel with the *powers that be* here on Earth.

Cheers..and I think if there is a God, he didn't do too bad a job with Micky dee.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hi Rod, yes truth is difficult...as slippery as soap on a rope. What we know as truth can change, I agree, which is why it seems we can only ever have provisional truths. Who knows if the sun will come up tomorrow? Maybe it wont.

Whether karma is true or not, it does seem to be a pretty good philosophy to live by and btw thanks for the story about the code of the hunters.

I know what you mean about he KJV..."The content of the bible seems to be in flux". You can say that again and with so many new and interesting interpretations and reinterpretaions appearing here and there(cough)...it's hard to get a handle on just what is actually meant.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hello jsarm, no I don't think you're a liar! Your post made me think of that old saying..."a truth told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent". There would be few people who haven't told a few lies in their life. I know I have and not always with such noble intent as yours. Sometimes it's been purely for self-protection.

I understand your point about compassion versus truth. I do think though, there are still many people who would rather know the truth than be told a lie, even if it hurts them. If my lover was having a passionate affair with someone else, I'd want know. If I had a terminal illness, I'd want to be told. If I looked hideous in that dress, I'd want you to tell me (well, maybe not. That's just your opinion!)).

Would it be a good time to reveal to your Grandmother on her deathbed that you have conclusive proof that she wont be shooting up to Heaven as expected..? No! For one thing she wouldn't have the time or energy to process it.It would be a cruel act and serve no purpose other than to worry and confuse her in her final moments. So there are occasions where exposing the truth is less important than other things. It depends on what's at stake.

But y'know, I can't help thinking if it were me on that deathbed, and you had some important evidence that would shatter my belief system...I think I'd still want you to tell me. Maybe we want to be told the truth ourselves but aren't always willing to tell it to others. There does seem to be something about truth, that compels many of us seek it out rather than live in ignorance, even though it can be extremely painful.

I'm sure I haven't addressed your post adequately but I can't seem to think up anything better at the moment. Thanks for it!


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Secularist, thankyou for that pithy quote. I like it. Nice to see you too.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hi Joyous.. from JC Superstar right? As Austinstar is fond of saying, "there are three versions of the truth..yours, mine and the actual truth".


David Griffin 5 years ago

The truth is what is, regardless of whether someone is willing to confront it and acknowledge it or not. Sometimes our own stubborn viewpoint prevents us from seeing what is there, but it remains nonetheless.

There is a big difference between religion and spirituality.

See www.upwardvectorpubs.com for more info.


jrsearam profile image

jrsearam 5 years ago from San Juan, PR

You have responded more than adequately. You expounded on your beliefs clearly and generously. One can't ask for more. Many thanks, JR

BTW, I too would want the truth, even on my deathbed.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

I thought you might jsearm...;)

David Griffin,

I had a look at some of your articles and while I thought they were very well written as far as substance goes - just like religion, you only present claims to truth....with no real evidence to back them up. You make a lot of brute assertions..such as 'we are immortal beings', 'past lifetimes are very real' etc.

Near death experiences and so-called past life memories may be interesting but they are not evidence of spiritual immortality. There are other explanations. Why are you so willing to accept a supernatural interpretation first? The fact that historically humans have been drawn to concepts like immortality and reincarnation doesn't make it true either.

I'm not saying there can be no possibility you are right, just that, as yet...there is no evidence (in the scientific sense) for your claims. Unless you can prove them, your own experiences are not evidence - not to anyone else anyway.

As far as truth goes, your claims are only sitting at the 'it might be true' stage...and have not reached..'it's very likely to be true' status.

Cheers


David Griffin 5 years ago

Hi Jane;

On my home page ( http://www.upwardvectorpubs.com ) it says:

"In the pages that follow, you may see some things which are a bit outside of your current reality and currently held viewpoint of things, in the case of some, drastically so. What follows herein are some very hard truths which may be difficult for some people to confront and adjust to."

I well understand that my viewpoint (the point from which I view) is different than that of a great many people, and I accept that as a present fact as well. I can also tell you that my viewpoint is not a fixed and static thing. Each time I learn something new, it changes slightly, just as with anyone else. Just in the past year for example, it has undergone tremendous changes, and as a result, I have come to realize the importance of viewpoints and the key role they play, thus the short article and page I created just on that topic alone:

The Importance of Viewpoints

http://www.upwardvectorpubs.com/uvp_007.htm

I found that it was my very own viewpoint which acted as a 'governor' of sorts, an inhibitor, which prevented me from seeing things which were right in front of me the whole time, and indeed, I could only view and learn so much while holding a fixed viewpoint.

In my article Past-Life Memories 1 it says:

"When I was much younger, I had a gut feeling that I had lived before. I “believed” that I had experiences before this lifetime, though at that time, had no actual recall of them.

In 1992, I recovered my first memory from a previous lifetime, and in that split-second, my entire reality was forever changed..."

"In a brief instant, my entire reality was suddenly destabilized because at that point, I knew, no more “belief” required, that past-lives were very real, and I was just as suddenly, right up against many of the incorrect viewpoints which had been thrust upon me from an early age, by the society in which I lived."

That was a life-changing moment for me to be sure, because it was a sudden and dramatic shift in viewpoint, and it was quite honestly, at the time, a bit destabilizing.

I understand that most people have not had an experience like mine, and thus, do not share my viewpoint. This is only natural and to be expected. That being said however, I must also point out that since that time, I have met a great many people who HAVE had similar experiences to mine, and who also recall many of their own previous lifetimes.

Viewpoints can be a sticky thing, and I understand when people say "I won't believe it until I see it." We are more alike on that point, you and I, than you may know ; )

I believe most people will require a dramatic life-changing event to cause a shift in viewpoint, just as I did.

When that occurs, the data they will be looking for has already been prepared.

Warm regards,

David


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

David,

I agree that we should be willing to change our viewpoints....if there's good reasons for it.

What you have experienced does sound very dramatic and I can understand how it could shift your perspective but there could be explanations other than reincarnation. Also, while it's interesting that other people have had similar experiences with past memory, it's not necessarily an indication that something supernatural is going on.

You might be interested in the the following article. Maybe you know about this already, but if not, it discusses how past memories may be due to something going amiss in memory processing, a phenomenum known as 'source-monitoring errors'. It also might mean you are extra- creative:

http://www.livescience.com/7272-belief-reincarnati...

Just something to consider.


crystolite profile image

crystolite 5 years ago from Houston TX

We all know that there is what Religion can give that science cannot give. and come to think of it, Is there anything science gives that Religion don't give?


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

crystolite,

Do you believe the earth is flat? If not, then you already have your answer. Science has given us facts.

Cheers


Rod Marsden profile image

Rod Marsden 5 years ago from Wollongong, NSW, Australia

Maybe crystolite lives on Terry Pratchett's Disc World.


aethelthryth profile image

aethelthryth 5 years ago from American Southwest

Yes, all religions (and belief systems) claim to be true. Otherwise, what would be the point in believing them? Who's going to go around telling people, "Join me in believing this lie!"

Some lies become obvious by "following the money". But there are other motivations than money. The desire to live life the way I want to, the desire not to answer to anyone, is a major motivation for the belief systems of many people I know. The desire to have the crowd agree with me is another major motivation.

There are fakers in all religions, and some of them are very good at faking. To figure out who's telling the truth, first you have to find what the belief system actually says. Find someone who is genuinely trying to follow it, get to know them well, watch them in pain and in pleasure, and see what motivates them; whether it's honest.

Before you dismiss Christianity so easily, research actual Christian martyrs in history and today, and see if, in that ultimate distress, they act like they really believe. Then find out why they believe.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

aethyl, thanks for that considered comment. I understand why people may be motivated to believe in religion and that the motivation may be very honest but that doesn't mean what your believing in is true. Nor does the sincerity of the Christian martyrs or anyone else. After all, people have had very sincere, intense convictions about all sorts of things. Members of the Heavens Gate group killed themselves for their beliefs...religious suicide bombers kill themselves and others for the same reason.

Desiring to live life in a certain way, or the desire not to have to answer to anyone may be perfectly understandable reasons to believe/not believe in something...but what do they have to do with truth? Is it truthful to believe that the world is a certain way just because we wish it to be so?


Alexander Mark profile image

Alexander Mark 5 years ago from beautiful, rainy, green Portland, Oregon

"What is truth?" I believe that's what Pilate said in part to absolve himself before he crucified Jesus. And sadly, truth was staring him in the face. None of us after Jesus's time have had the same privilige, but always posing and / or asking the questions instead of accepting or rejecting shows that a person isn't really interested in finding the truth. In this case, Pilate was excusing himself.

You laid it out well though, faith is faith and based on assumptions, although I think reason is subjective ;-)

I do agree that acts of evil have and continue to some degree to be committed by Christians because they do not THINK about their faith, but are content to follow their religious doctrines and unwilling to challenge them according to the Bible. This could explain why I don't asociate with many of my brothers and sisters in Christ :-)

That exchange between Protagoras and Socrates was hilarious, and I love your point about absolute truth. A bumper sticker I want is "Question Gravity."

In the end, there has to be an absolute truth, but humans can always justify their own opinions. Science is not, nor ever will be completely solid, it is a faith based belief. But that is just my opinion...

My answer to the question that started this hub is that yes, I would absolutely expose the truth. That kind of truth could have a devastating effect, but lying is completely destructive in the end, it twists reality into something else and spurns action based on assumptions that don't exist. But absolute evidence won't convince everyone absolutely of course.

Great hub, voted up.


Terry.Hirneisen profile image

Terry.Hirneisen 5 years ago from Shenandoah Valley

Some comments here are as long as some HUBS. The thought of a God is comforting, but Religious dogma is not. I don't believe in either, until I start to talk to my departed friend General(dog). Then I desperately hope for something too complex to understand.

Great HUB


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Alexander, I enjoyed reading your comment. If science is faith-based, it is at least a faith supported by evidence and solid reasoning.

I too, believe in the possibility of objective truth. Lol..what a great bumper sticker.

I like your last statement, which in essence translates to ..."what a tangled web we weave when once we practice to deceive". Couldn't agree more.

Cheers


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hi Terry, thanks for reading. Yes, I agree...I can't see how there is much comfort to be had in religious dogma...except perhaps the security of certainty.

Seperating God from religion...the thought of God could be comforting but then everyone assumes if there is a God he must be loving and benevolent. Well maybe He's not.Since there is both good and evil in the world, He could just as easily be wicked couldn't He?...or maybe there are several Gods and they're all crazy.


aethelthryth profile image

aethelthryth 5 years ago from American Southwest

You are quite right that motivation is not directly relevant to truth. It does help to prioritize where to look for truth, though. If the believers of a belief system obviously believe it for some other reason than that it is true, don't start with that. Start your investigation with belief system(s) where the beliefs cause hurt to the believers, but they believe anyway.

For instance, I take your writing more seriously than most because you would want to know a truth even if painful (the deathbed example.) It doesn't mean you're right, in fact, I don't think you are. But you're likely to be closer to the truth than someone who only wants to hear pleasant things.

About science; scientists are people too, with interested motives. There are scientists who do their very best to be objective and who don't care what other people think. There are lawyers who care about justice above all, too. But it's not what you get from the profession as a whole.

I don't see why the assumption should be that God is good. The only one I'm aware of who is described as being good is the God of the Bible. The evil in the world is what man has brought on himself, and the God of the Bible found a way to rescue man by sacrificing Himself, which is a very blasphemous concept, unless it's truly God's idea.

Terry is right that this is your hub, and comments shouldn't be this long. I'm sorry; it's just that you bring up many good points and I'm not going to have time to keep joining in the conversation!


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

aethel, don't worry about how long the comment is..that's fine with me.

It's true scientists are human and thus subject to all sorts of corruptions and motives.However the process itself is impartial and designed to catch lies in the net.Any sort of scientific theory has to pass through rigorous testing before it's widely accepted as a (provisional) truth.

The claim that the God of the Bible is good doesn't match what's actually written in there since there's many examples of God being brutal and unreasonable.

Not all evil in the world is mans doing...there's natural evil, ie; the suffering caused by natural disaters. Did you watch the video? Hitchens raises the point that it's not morally sound for one entity to take on the burden of another's guilt. If I commit an atrocity, another person can't take on my guilt. They can't sacrifice themselves on my behalf and therefore cleanse me of my guilt. It makes no sense.


upal19 profile image

upal19 5 years ago from Dhaka

If we believe in god's existence then will we believe only the biblical god? Biblical god is not that god what that should be. Believing in god must be reward worthy but it does not make sense that the god should have child. The whole christianity is based on this. All the sins I commit are washed by jesus's crucification also does not make any sense. If that is true then there will be no difference between sinfulness and religiousness. If that is true then a man wicked to the backbone will go to heaven only believing in jesus. It can't be. A wicked man must be rewarded the hell. This is justice. If we believe in god we must believe that the god is something of justice.


globeris 5 years ago

thank upal19. agreed. why not study what other believer say about jesus?


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

upal,

Thanks for reading. it doesn't make sense to me either...but then, how can we know what God *should be*? Why must God be just? There's no reason to suppose He is, other than wishful thinking.


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Really interesting article and commentary. I notice that people that are educated in the sciences tend to be evolutionists or lean toward Darwinism - maybe I'm way off (maybe working around more doc's and nurses clouds my view?) I like Survival of the fittest theory.

I truly believe that religion was invented as a more political move - to control masses of people. I worry though if it were debunked how much crime rates might go up? Just a thought.

Relating to the hub though - I really want the truth, even if it isn't the prettiest thing.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

RealHousewife, me too and thanks very much for stopping by and leaving a comment.

I'm honestly amazed at how many Americans seem to dismiss the theory of evolution. In Australia, it's a given. About the crime rates..Secularist has written a hub about this very thing:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Religion-A


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Wow! I read the link and I am really surprised and a little relieved really. I'm just waiting for everyone to find out the truth....haha! Just kidding:)


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

RH, I'm not surprised at all..:)


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

I really thought if you took away the possibility of a fiery death - it might just open the flood gates of crime. It's the only single reason I don't dispute religion - but now that fear is gone:)!

Have an excellent weekend. I am really enjoying your articles! Austinstar was right about you:)


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Thanks RH, I canunderstand that. Don't forget, as well as our own conscience, there's still the good ol' secular LAW to prevent us from descending into barbarism.

Don't believe a word Austin says..it's all lies!

Just kidding.. I know she wouldn't say anything bad.Beneath that feisty exterior lies a woman with a heart of gold.


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Well you'll have to check out her psychic dream hub to look at the comments Jane:) too darn funny! It's why I had no choice but to seek you out and follow! LOL!


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

I see what you mean! Haha..it's a little disconcering to think I might be appearing in someone's dreams. I hope I behaved myself..


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Yep you just left a funny comment and I couldn't read it in the dream but it made me laugh! Lol!


Ruby H Rose profile image

Ruby H Rose 5 years ago from Northwest Washington on an Island

Amazing Hub, thanks


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore Author

Hi Ruby, thanks


muslimmarriage 4 years ago

Truth is that this universe and all th other universesand the symmentry all around clearly indicates presence of God the creator and the sustainer and the Religion is the Gods manual for success n this life and we humans have physical bodies but inside us are spirits which are immportal and the spirits are transfered to the hereafter after the physical death occurs of human body.

Thos in search of truth sooner or later reach the conclusion that there is one God who is uncomparableand none like him

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