Universal Salvation: Response to galatians22067
galatians22067 says (and I quote):
Preface to readers: galatians22067 and I began our comments on my hub Response to Gina: L. Ray Smith Followers, should you wish to start at the beginning (see comment section of that hub).
galatians22067 said: "You never answered your contradiction ! You twisted my words and answered based on what you made up ! YOU LIED ! You can never answer the contradiction I exposed you on. Your contradiction is so obvious in my last post thats why you did not post it. It makes you look foolish ! You have a hard heart and blatant contradictions have no effect on your stuborness.
Paragraph 1 - Show me a scripture that says its to late to bring people to a knowledge of the truth ? Do me a favor why dont you tell me what the TRUTH is ? 1 Tim 2:4 / Rom 1:25. I am going to have a field day on your doctrine when you answer that question . What is the truth in Rom 1:25/1Tim 2:4 ?
Of course its the Holy Spirit that brings people to God ! You just do not understand Gods judgements ! Paul says his judgements are wise, rich and full of knowledge and mercy. Rom 11:32,33. You say God is unmerciful in his judgements ! Show me a scripture that says God is unmerciful ! This is total blasphemy ! Roms 1 says being unmerciful is a character trait of someone who hates God and invents evil things who turn the TRUTH into a lie. WOW are you consistent with a lot of things going on in Rom 1 ! Show me a scripture that says God is unmerciful ? Remember what happened last time you tried to do this ? You looked so foolish you did not even dare to post any of it !
The lake of fire is the judgement . The holy Spirit is what brings to a knowledge of the TRUTH ! 1 Cor 12:3 . No man can confess expect by the holy spirit ! Phlp 2:11 every knee shall confess. Rom 10:9 If you confess you shall be saved . Show me a scripture that says these principles and scriptures that are true suddenly become false because its to late ? Show me a scripture that says God is unmerciful towards these people ?
Paragraph 2 - Yes faith comes by hearing the word of God . Yes many reject this grace and will give account and suffer much loss and face judgement. But its quite obvious you do not understand Rom 4:25. He was delivered for offences and was raised for justification ! Rejecting grace does not nullfy Christs atoning work at calvary for our offences. They are two totally different things and you have no distinction between them. I cant wait for you to answer the question what is truth ? Christ died for the sins of the world and I am being justified by grace through faith in that truth. An unbeliever has no faith and rejects Gods grace in the truth. A believer repents from his old life and begins to be resurrected into a new life through faith in Christ. An unbeliever has no faith in anything and He remains dead in trespasses and sins ! HE IS NOT JUSTIFIED ! HE IS FULLY ATONED FOR AT CALVARY ! This is what judgement brings . Rom 5 teaches this offences than justification. Christ was delivered for offences and raised for justification ! Where sin abounds grace abounds .
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Well answer Pauls question ! Yes it will you claim God is going to burn you in hell forever ! Here is the real answer :
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
God forbid . JUSTIFIED OVERCOME WHEN JUDGED. You call God a liar right to his face in this scripture ! Jude 4 says men turn Gods grace into lascivousness. They nullify his grace! If this means Christ all of a sudden did not atone for their sins than the verse makes no sense. How can you take advantage of Gods grace if you burn in hell forever for it ? What kind of sick reasoning do you posses ? You can not take advantage of something if there is an eternal penalty attached to it ! They take advantage of the fact that God is faithful. Will they be judged for their crimes ? YES of course and they deserve it ! However WHERE SIN ABOUNDS GRACE ABOUNDS THE MORE ! IS THIS REALLY THAT HARD ? I guess when you are totally stuborn and hard hearted it is.
Par 3- You take scriptures that are true and ignore the higher principle attached to those truths . Yes Rom 6:16, Heb 11:6 are true . But they are true in light of these scriptures : John 15:16. Phil 1:29. It is given to you to excersise these scriptures you put in front of the higher ones. You take relative statements and make the realtive statement the absolute statement.
Chose you this day whom you yield yourselfs to obey but unto you IT IS GIVEN TO DO THIS !!!! This why you do not believe Eph 2:8 . THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELF , IT IS GIVEN TO YOU, WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DID NOT RECEIVE ? You claim, "Absolutely we chose" like its the absolute. Yes you are absolutely correct we chose but why ? BECAUSE GOD CHOSE US ! Work out your own salvation - relative ! It is God which works in you - Absolute. You do not like the absolute so you focus on the relative instead. You worship the creature not the creator !
par 4 - What are you trying to prove about verse 11 in light of verse 9 from Isaiah 26 ? That the principle in verse 9 is wrong ? That when Gods judgements are in the earth no one will actually learn righteousness. Explain to me what this means ? Well see if you read verses 10 and 11 you can see that what God says in verse 9 is wrong. Its total stupidity what you argue . You despise these verses to the point were you flat out claim they are just not true."
Regarding 1 Tim 2:4: Here’s the Bible link to that verse. I dare you to read the cross-references in the right margin: http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-4.htm
Regarding Rom 1:25, is it not YOU who worships the creation rather than the Creator? You expect all men to be saved because YOU can’t stand the thought of anyone burning in Hell. You love the created human more than God, no matter what they believe.
Regarding Rom 11:32, cross reference with Galatians 3:22.
James 2:13 “For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy” This makes me look foolish? I don’t think so.
The final judgment is sentencing to the Lake of Fire. Hebrews 9:27 states, “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment”, that word “judgment” is krisis, which means to stand before a court, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment. The court will judge there, which is the word krino: decree, determine, judge; properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish -- avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. The Lake of Fire is the second death and is permanent.
Now, notice that believers who are sanctified by faith in Christ do NOT come before the judgment (krisis) and therefore do not stand before the court. John 5:24 states, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment [krisis], but has passed out of death into life.”
Let’s talk about confession. 1 John 1:9 states, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” That is salvation - to confess our sins; not to confess Who Jesus Christ is. The demons knew Who Jesus was and yet trembled (James 2:19). Just as Man has an appointed time to die and face the judgment (krisis), they know they have an appointed time also, and they know what that sentence is. Mat 8:29: “And they cried out, saying, ‘What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?’” See, they confessed Who Jesus was, but they didn't confess their sins! The word “torment” here is basanizó, which means to torture, pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
You said, “No man can confess expect by the holy spirit !” You are wrong. Read the scripture correctly in 1 Cor 12:13: “Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, ‘Jesus is accursed’; and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” Do you know what Lord means? It means He is your MASTER. No man can serve two masters! Satan is a master and Jesus is a Master. The love of money is the root of all evil (evil being a master) ~ read Mat 6:24.
When you state, “Yes faith comes by hearing the word of God . Yes many reject this grace and will give account and suffer much loss and face judgement”, are you referring to 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Cor 3:13-15? If so, I will copy here what is already written in my Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine hub:
First of all, believers have FAITH; unbelievers do not. These passages have to do with the saved, not with the “many who reject this grace”, as you stated. Let me show you 1 Pet 1:7 as written in the NAS version of the Bible:
1 Peter 1:7 "that is the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
Translated correctly, this is better understood by the proper typing of the words and punctuation:
"That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (DRB)
1 Cor 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains; he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.
The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation), is consumed by fire, escapes (is snatched out), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (therefore, the loss of his reward-prize). The word it above is the foundation of Jesus Christ in Whom he has his FAITH. He does not lose his salvation, nor does he obtain it by these works.
Eph 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Now, you need to cross-reference Rom 4:25 with Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” DO YOU SEE FAITH here? We must be saved by FAITH, which comes by hearing the Word of God!! And that would be NOW, IN THE FLESH!! If we reject Him, we nullify His grace in regard to us!! I’ve already shown you this!!
You are the one twisting scripture, for you confirm the above truth by stating, “Christ died for the sins of the world and I am being justified by grace through faith in that truth. An unbeliever has no faith and rejects Gods grace in the truth.” Then, you also say, “Rejecting grace does not nullfy Christs atoning work at calvary for our offences.” Yet, you go on to say, “Jude 4 says men turn Gods grace into lascivousness. They nullify his grace!” Aren’t YOU contradicting yourself?! You asked, “How can you take advantage of Gods grace if you burn in hell forever for it ? What kind of sick reasoning do you posses ?” Ask those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (sexual freedom) ~ for they WILL burn in Hell for it.
Likewise, you confirm the truth by stating, “A believer repents from his old life and begins to be resurrected into a new life through faith in Christ. An unbeliever has no faith in anything and He remains dead in trespasses and sins ! HE IS NOT JUSTIFIED !” Then, you also say, “HE IS FULLY ATONED FOR AT CALVARY !”
How you’ve twisted this is to think I’ve stated Christ’s atonement is nullified as a whole. That’s not what I’m saying. I am saying that His atonement has no value to save those who refuse to believe. They have no covering for their sin (John 15:22).
What does judgment bring? Atonement? NO!! Christ’s blood is the atonement, not judgment. Yes, there are judgments on the earth where SOME will learn that He is their righteousness (by faith), but not ALL will learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:10), but this is before the krisis judgment at the bema seat of Christ. That judgment comes after our appointed time to die once (Heb 9:27).
Cross-reference Rom 3:3-4 with Heb 4:2:
Rom 3:3-4 “What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, ‘that you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged." This is talking about God's faithfulness to provide a way to salvation, not blanket salvation for everyone. Only through faith can we be justified and prevail.
Cross-reference with Heb 4:2 “For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.”
To put this in an easier perspective, consider God is the Steward on the plane. He gives everyone a parachute and tells them to put it on to save their lives. Some do, but when they feel the heaviness of it or get laughed at by others who don’t want to wear them, they take it off. They also simply deny any possibility that the Steward would let the plane crash! That parachute is of no use when the plane goes down too fast to put it on. Those who obeyed and kept the parachute on were saved. Indeed, God was faithful to give a parachute to everyone, but only those who believed and obeyed Him were saved. This means God is true and every man a liar that didn't comply with wearing the parachute. This means God was faithful, regardless!! Do you get it now?
You asked, “WHERE SIN ABOUNDS GRACE ABOUNDS THE MORE ! IS THIS REALLY THAT HARD ?” This pertains to those who are saved ~ forgiven. Read Romans 7:15-8:1. When we are covered by the blood of the Lamb (through faith in Him), our flesh sins, but our spirit is sinless. However, we can't turn the grace of God into a license to live lawlessly. To acknowledge and confess our sins means we love the Law of God. Can you understand that? Look at verses 16-17: “But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.” This leads us to Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation [krisis] for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
You quoted John 15:16 and you must cross-reference this with John 6:70. Jesus is speaking to His twelve disciples ONLY. He chose (selected) them. The twelve apostles will be those who are given thrones and authority to judge (krino, not krisis) Israel (Mat 19:28). Is Israel not called the chosen ones? Are we not grafted into the chosen when we are saved? Are they not cut off if they reject Christ, their Messiah? Absolutely!! If you don’t understand all this, you need to read my hub The Elect of God Likewise, Phil 1:29 is speaking of the saved.
Eph 2:8-9 state that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves (meaning we don’t earn our way by works), which is covered in verse 9. Christ died freely and we are to accept His faithfulness (the parachute), believe and obey in order to be saved. Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling is exactly that. It’s YOUR CHOICE. Once you receive salvation, you no longer have a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind (2 Tim 1:7).
I’ve already covered Isaiah 26:9-11. Some will come to the knowledge of the truth (learn that righteousness comes only through faith in Christ); some will not. Therefore, not ALL are saved. Do you understand?
And speaking of krisis, the gospels tell me in Mark 6:11 and Luke 9:5, "And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them." This is why I told you I do not HAVE to contend with you. Not contending does not indicate you are right in your beliefs, but is rather a rebuke, in the name of the Lord.
To continue on with my response to galatians22067, see Universal Salvation: Response to galatians22067-2.
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