Universal Salvation: Response to galatians22067-2
Galatians, this hub-length comment after hub-length comment is getting a bit ridiculous. One thing about you Universalists is you can’t keep your comments a reasonable length. Nor can I respond to you in reasonable length. For this reason, I am posting yet another hub.
Galatians22067 said (and I quote):
I am not going to try and and post a teaching on the second death lake of fire judgement on a hub page. I am still going to take this one point at a time because these multi tasking discussions get convoluted. My purpose is to prove that the lake of fire judgement is not eternal not that it does not exist. It is very real and a very serious thing but the idea that it is eternal and has no purpose but to torture people is just far from the truth. Im glad you see that there is no verse in the bible that says the penalty for our sins is to go to hell and thats its death. Remember this when learning about the second death. Lets go on to the next point in your letter , I am going to skip over 1Tim2:4 because the 2nd part of your response is more fitting for our discussion.
“Regarding Rom 1:25, is it not YOU who worships the creation rather than the Creator? You expect all men to be saved because YOU can’t stand the thought of anyone burning in Hell. You love the created human more than God, no matter what they believe.”
The fact that I discuss and do not agree with these belief should tell you that this is not true. I do not believe people can just believe what ever they want and do what ever they want and than just "go to heaven." This is a horrible false witness. God is going to judge the world and every idle word men have spoken. I mean look at my email address Gal 2:20 and 6:7 ! These are a few of my favorite verses thats why my email address is what it is because there a focal point of my beliefs . Does this sound like talk from a person who promotes live like you want and not be accountable ? You are right I can not stand the thought of anyone ever going to hell forever. I used to believe it was true until I began to really learn and now I am amazed how blind I was. However I have absolutely no problem with God judging the wickedness of men !
Can you imagine getting to heaven and all those prayers you have ever said for those you love to come to Christ and for Christ to heal them if they are all burning in hell forever ? I mean what kind of a blessing is that ? Where are my friends and family God ? Well they over here burning in fire isnt it great ? Isnt it great to be in the kingdom of God ? I mean come on have you ever really thought about this ! Come on God we have learned all these principles of righteousness our whole lives. Love our enemy, do good to those who hate you. They made fun of me for not getting drunk and fornicating and laughing at me for having faith and just like you I forgive them because they do not know what they are doing. I tried by best to live by your commands dont you practice what you taught us to be like ? Can we teach them now God ? You know like when Joseph taught his evil brothers that lesson in Genesis remember ? Can we use that principle now ? I mean God dont we both desire everyone to be saved ? Well Matt I am afraid not its to late ! I wanted to save them but I cant anymore ! You know what we can do we can raise them from the dead and burn their flesh for all eternity ? How does that sound ?
I was being sacrcastic God is going to do these things for us . HE LOVES US ! I pray I am in that blessed and holy first resurrection and help him accomplish subduing everything back to Christ where it belongs ! It does not matter if you do not believe its going to happen . Jesus Christ will win . He will abolish all death not some death all death even the second death !
For God will not show mercy when he judges the person who has not been merciful; but mercy triumphs over judgment.
My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you?
Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enough to eat.
What good is there in your saying to them, "God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!"---if you don't give them the necessities of life?
So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.
If someone is hungry and asks you for a sandwich you are not supposed to say God Bless You ! You are supposed to make him a sandwich. The judgement here is someone who is not proving their faith by their actions. If you have the needs to make someone a sandwich and ignore their necessitiy of life you have been unmerciful towards that persons necessity of life and God will not have mercy on that action. He is not going to be merciful towards that action he is going to judge that action but HIS MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER THAT JUDGEMENT. This says absolutely nothing about God never stoping from burning people with fire for all eternity.
Now be honest have you misunderstood this verse ?
galatians22067 said, “My purpose is to prove that the lake of fire judgement is not eternal not that it does not exist. It is very real and a very serious thing but the idea that it is eternal and has no purpose but to torture people is just far from the truth. Im glad you see that there is no verse in the bible that says the penalty for our sins is to go to hell and thats its death.”
The Lake of Fire is not eternal? Can you prove that? I can prove that it is:
If you look up the actual Greek definitions of everlasting and eternal:
According to scripture, souls live eternally. They are either eternally in life or eternally condemned.
Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.
The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.
The hole in one regarding olam, aionios and even aion is if you look up everlasting (olam) God/King and eternal (aionios) God. You CANNOT claim that God is age-existant that implies an end or period of time!! That is heretical and blasphemous!! (Gen 21:13; Isa 40:28; Jer 10:10; Rom 16:26)
- "This is My name for ever [olam]" Ex 3:15
- "Yehovah is everlasting [olam] strength" Isa 26:4
- "The Word of our God stands for ever [olam]" Isa 40:8
- "Eternal [aionios] house in heaven" 2 Cor 5:1
- "He became the source of eternal [aionios] salvation" Heb 5:9
- "Christ, Who through the eternal [aionios] Spirit" Heb 9:14
- "the blood of the everlasting [aionion] covenant" Heb 13:20
- "God...has called us into His eternal [aionion] glory" 1 Pet 5:10
- "into the everlasting [aionios] kingdom of our Lord" 2 Pet 1:11
- "Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Mat 6:13
- "The Father is blessed for evermore [aion]" 2 Cor 11:31
- "According to His eternal [aion] purpose" Eph 3:11
- "Now to the King eternal [aion]... be honor and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" 1 Tim 1:17
- "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Heb 1:8
Both heaven and hell is everlasting, eternal, without end. Our souls will dwell in one place or the other after physical death and bodily resurrection.
What does “will awake” mean? The resurrection. Those in the first resurrection have died in Christ and will not see the second death.
Rev 14:10b and 11a tell us, “and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night”. Regarding "for ever and ever" the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary states as follows:
Greek: "unto ages of ages." No rest day nor night - contrast the very different sense in which the same is said of the four living creatures in heaven, "They rest not day and night, saying, 'Holy, holy, holy'"; yet they do "rest" in another sense; they rest from sin and sorrow, weariness and weakness, trial and temptation (Rev 14:13); the lost have no rest from sin and Satan, terror, torment, and remorse.
First of all, the torment happens in the Lake of Fire in presence of the holy angels and the Lamb; not the saints. What does “torment” mean? Here is the definition for you to see: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/929.htm The definition includes TORTURE.
When it comes to the final sentence to Geenna, the Lake of Fire, there is no coming out. Look at Revelation 22 about the New Heaven and New Earth. This is the final dwelling for the saints. Verse 15 states, “Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.” Where was the Valley of Hinnom located in the times before and during Jesus’ life on earth? Outside Jerusalem. It is apparent the final Geenna will also be outside the Holy City. I don’t know if you’ve read my hub Where or What is HELL?, but fire and brimstone indicate Geenna is on earth (in the earth), for brimstone is inflammable sulpher and does not exist in space. It is incorruptible, just as the resurrected bodies of those who enter Geenna will be (1 Cor 15:52).
I never said the penalty for sin is not to go to Hell. Look at the following two verses:
Rom 6:23 "The wages of sin is death". The word "wages" means provisions, wages. Eternal death is paid to the sinner!! The sinner is not making the payment to God. That's the way Satan twists the truth! Everyone dies and that is not atonement or payment to God for our sin!!
2 Thes 1:9 "These will pay the penalty of eternal [aionios] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power". The word "penalty" means justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution) -- judgment, punish, vengeance. Destruction is from a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form).
The sentence for those who do not receive Jesus as Lord and Savior (before their appointed time to die physically) do NOT have a second chance! The judgment follows (krisis) and sentencing to Geenna is the second and final “death”, which is eternal, everlasting, forever and ever. You cannot convince me it is for an “age” or temporary time period. You also cannot prove scripturally that anyone is saved after entering the Lake of Fire. It is FINAL, as much as eternal life is final!
Regarding mercy or no mercy shown by God, it is true that there are many who profess to be saved by “faith” or even call themselves “Christians”, but they LIE in that we shall know them by their fruits! The fruit of faith is evident through actions. Mat 25:33-41 makes this clear.
James 2:13 states, "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." Regarding the latter part of this verse, mercy, so far from fearing judgment in the case of its followers, actually glorifieth against it, knowing that it cannot condemn them. Not that their mercy is the ground of their acquittal, but the mercy of God in Christ towards them, producing mercy on their part towards their fellow men, makes them to triumph over judgment, which all in themselves otherwise deserve. This is speaking to believers, those saved in Christ.
Regarding John 3:16 ~ God so “loved the world” and “loving our enemies” (Mat 5:44), you need to understand the difference between that kind of love (agapao) and saved love (agape). It is not the same. You are welcome to read up on this study in my hub Hated on Account of My Name.
We should be busy about spreading the gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ NOW. I’ve already shared with you that He will draw ALL men to Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (that would be the resurrection of Christ Jesus, which already happened). That drawing comes by hearing the Word of God, at which point each man must choose to receive or reject Him. They will NOT have a second chance after death. They will NOT be purified unto salvation through the Lake of Fire. THAT IS A LIE from the PIT OF HELL. You will not be in the first resurrection as long as you preach doctrines of demons.
You USED to believe the way I do and “The Way of the Master”, but TURNED AWAY from the truth! Hebrews 6:4-6 tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew you AGAIN unto repentance, for you are crucifying to YOURSELF the Son of God and putting Him to OPEN SHAME. Be warned!! I am solemnly testifying to you as Paul did to the Jews.
To read my first responsive hub to galatians22067, see Universal Salvation: Response to galatians22067.
To continue on with my third response to galatians22067, see Universal Salvation: Response to gatlatians22067-3.
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