What happened to make pagans become Christians?

When did this happen and why?, around 350 years or so after Jesus Christ was crucified, died, then rose from the dead. Pagans had not believed in Him before, so why was it so easy for them to become Christians? After reading about it, there are some reasons that it was not a difficult thing for them to do.

It was about the year of 325 after the crucifiction of Jesus Christ that the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to made Rome a Christian empire. But, many of the people who lived in Rome where not Christians, so he decided to let some of their celebrations, symbols, and beliefs mix in with the Christians.

For instance, Christians celebrate Christmas. The birth of Jesus Christ. We celebrate it on December 25th. We give gifts to each other, kiss under the mistletoe, and many put lights of red and green on their trees.

The Pagans celebrated December 17th through December 24th because it was the winter solstice. They kissed each other under the mistletoe with berries of red and green in it. They had parties, and decorations.

This is not the only holiday Christians Celebrate with Pagans.

In Easter Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who after being crucified, rose from the dead so we could be forgiven of our sins. But, why do we hunt for easter eggs and give our children stuffed bunnies? The pagans thought the egg was good luck, and the chick or bunny that came from the egg, brought good life.

In Valentine's Day, does that have anything to do with Christ? It is called St. Valentine's Day by the Catholic Church. In the year 269 a priest named Valetine was executed by the Roman Emperor Claudius ll. However, in the year 496 Pope Gelasius named Feburary 14th to be St. Valentine's Day.

In the ancient times the middle of Feburary was the celebration of the marriage of Zeus and Hara by the Pagans. They gave each other flowers, and celebrated their love.

So, are we celebrating the death of a priest or the marriage of Zeus and Hara?

What about the Cross? I have written another hub about Jesus Christ being crucified on a tree rather then a cross. Christians did not use the symbol of the cross or even talk about it for several hundered years after Christ had been crucified. But, now there are so many paintings of Jesus Christ on a cross, but only one has been found of Jesus Christ on a tree.

To the Pagans, however, the cross has many meanings. The cross can be the symbol of the cosmos and the gods in it, a medicine wheel, or even the four directions their god is pointing.

The last thing I am going to write about is the Trintiy. The Pagans and several others had trinities. One of the pagan trinties was Isis, Orisis, and Typhon. Isis and Orisis were brother and sister and were also married. Typhon was the god of the sea.

The Pagans had another trinity. This trinity was Zeus, Hera, and Athena.

So why do Christians have a Trinity called The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Part of the First Commandment of God is not to have other Gods before him. This is in Exodus 20:3.

It was about 325 that the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to put the Trinity into Christianity. So, does that mean The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are equal? The Christian Trinity was never found in any documents before 325. However, it is very important today.

All of these seem to be the reasons the Roman Emperor Constantine tried to convert Pagans or anyone else into Christianity. Instead of teaching what the apostles were teaching, he put their holidays and beliefs into Christ's.

This, however was an amazing gift from God. Because when Constantine did this, he gave Pagans the chance to have their sins to be forgive. He have them a chance to learn about Jesus. To know God, through Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten Son. Jesus who was crucified, died, and rose from the dead. After that all of us have the chance to be forgiven of our sins! Isn't that amazing!




Do you think Pagans should become Christians? Please scroll down to the bottom, and let me know what you think.

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Comments 1120 comments

North Wind profile image

North Wind 4 years ago from The World (for now)

Very interesting facts here Michele. You are right - a lot of today's tradition in the church goes back to pagan practices and does not come from the Scriptures. That is why the Bible says to weigh everything against the word of God and decide if it is true or false.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you North Wind. I do need to know more of the truth, which is why reading the bible instead of watching the history channel, is the only way to find the truth. Drawing closer to God.


rLcasaLme profile image

rLcasaLme 4 years ago from Dubai, United Arab Emirates

And that is why it is my endeavor to read the scripture from beginning to end, Michele. To know what God really said. To know what the apostles really taught. Even the worship of Mary can also be rooted in pagan worship. We really ought to know what the bible has to say. God has spoken, He said something, He said many things. Aren't we curious what are they?

What you said here are very true.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for what you wrote. I do wish that more people would read and decide for themselves what is true ( even if it is political) instead of just listening to what someone else tells them.


vespawoolf profile image

vespawoolf 4 years ago from Peru, South America

So true! Thank you for the great information, especially about Constantine and the pagan roots of so many popular celebrations.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment. The most important thing is God loves us and sent Jesus to forgive us for our sins. God loves us more then we will ever know.


wba108@yahoo.com profile image

wba108@yahoo.com 4 years ago from upstate, NY

Awesome writing and good points! It's interesting to see how history unfolds, there's a lot we can learn from it.

There is no doubt that that the Emperor Constantine comprimised the Christian church when tried to consolidate his power by bringing the pagan's into the church through political maneuvering.

Although the trinity is not mentioned in the scriptures, I believe them to be evident in our understanding of the nature of God through the scriptures. You're quite correct in noticing the parellel's to the trinity in the pagan religions. I believe its common for satan to try to mimic a counterfeit to things of God. He comes as an angel of light to deceive. You can even see some parallel's to the trinity in nature ie. solids, liquids and gas, in poeple- spirit, soul and body etc.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment, you have a lot of information that is very interesting.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

i would like to add some information here about the impact of pagan cutlure on Christainity.It s the word "incarnation"..well,I ve heard some christains refer to Jesus as "God incarnate." However, it is a pagan term, a phrase that is not in the Bible.

"Incarnation" is a Latin term meaning: 1. To become flesh; 2. A "spirit being" taking possession of a body of flesh. The term is obviously a religious one deriving its only meaning from the influence of the churches. It has no meaning, or use, otherwise. "Carnae" is that Latin word for meat (flesh). "Incarnation," then, simply means to change into meat (i.e. flesh). Its only usage, or application, is in pagan religious terms referring to mythical gods and goddesses descending from heaven and taking possession of human bodies. It simply means that a god, or a spirit being existing in the form of a ghost, can take itself a flesh body to live in. This is the pagans’ so-called "demon possession" and "human deification." The pagans have created thousands of gods in their fertile imaginations. Many were in stone. Some were in flesh form. The believers attributed supernatural powers to them and worshipped them as if they were real. Roman and Greek Emperors were called "deities," as were Egyptian pharaohs.

That’s "incarnation" in terms of how Christian culture adopted it from the pagans. Incarnation is not a Biblical concept.

It is Biblical to believe that God inspires men and directs them by his influence and power. It’s a supernatural power.He can direct your steps.He can protect you from getting into trouble,or He can cause you to be in trouble. He can, and does, motivate us to act. However,He does not "possess" us in the fashion that pagans believe

God can inspire a thousand people at once,or a million people for that matter.He is in each of us at the same time. His spirit abides in us.It is the spark;the motivation that animates people and causes them to do his will.

you r one person and Jesus is in you; but not all of Jesus is in you.by the same token,GOd was in Jesus,but not all of Him was in Jesus.to limit God by putting all of Him in the body of Jesus would have deprived the rest of the universe of God s attending presence during the whole mortal lifetime of Jesus, not to mention the days when He was"dead???". The thought is absurd!I believe he was uplifted by GOD and will return back!!

The pagans invent human deities. But,Jesus was a man – not a human deity. He was a specially created man sent by God! He was a man directed by God! He was a man predestined by God! He wasn't "the Lamb of God," and wasn't used to reconcile mankind to God or to bear our sins.But Jesus was not a superman.He was not a god-man. He was a man! And if someone tries to tell you that He was some kind of a superman, or god-man, then ask them how a superman, or deity, could have normal human weaknesses and temptations to sin? Supermen and deities are not "like unto" normal, mortal men or how could He escape to Egypt from King Herod if He was truelly that mighty God and we know that before He punished to death those who cursed his holy name??and how could He still be that GOD while He feared death and pain?

Morever,Jesus was tempted IN ALL POINTS.Can you imagine that? He was tempted in the same ways that YOU are tempted!You can probably think of some pretty degrading ways in which you have been tempted in your lifetime. Jesus was tempted to sin in the very same ways.However, Jesus withstood the temptations and remained sinless.

If Jesus had been a god-man, there would have been no temptation. Jesus had to be natural in order to be tempted like natural man.

Now, notice James 1:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, …


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I have one question for you, if Jesus was only a man without sin, then was his death the reason we all can be forgiven of our sins?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

First of all,not to put too fine on it,JESUS is not dead or crucified,He was uplifted by God and still alive not among with us but in heavens ubove,one day GOD will send him back to kill Anti-Christ !

If JESUS died for us so it would be unfair,wicked and good ppl will go to heaven,those who did wrongdoings with the ones who devoted their lives to serving God.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

It is true there are a lot of evil people on earth, no matter what religion they say they are in. But, please remember one thing, God does love his children. That is why He created us. We are not alone. There are many wrongdoings that is true. But, God loves us, and many of us love God. We are not perfect and never will be, but God still loves so many of us. God loves you, He truly does.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

God loves all.We r not His children.We r His slaves,created to serve Him.we can accept metaphorically speaking the conception that we r His children which indicates that we are dear to Him and have special treat.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Can I pray for you? To ask God to take some pain out of your heart? Please?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It deponds on which God you are going to ask?You have three gods,Aren't you?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

No, there is only one God. I only believe in God. When I tell someone their information is interesting it does not mean I believe it.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

so who is JESUS to You?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

He is the Son of God, but that does not make him God. They are not the same person.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Who is the wife of God?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

God does not need a wife, he is the Creator. He created the universe, the earth, as well as his Son.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

You accepted the idea that God had son but You denied HIM to have wife.That s confusing!It makes no sense!and from where did you pick up that Jesus is the son of Almighty?God doesn't need a son or whatever,He is Rich and if we accept that means He isn't unique ,perfect and incomparable!thus,HE doesn't deserve to be worshiped


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I am sorry to have made you angry. I did not mean to do that. I will not argue with you nor try to force my beliefs upon you. That is wrong. Forgive me please if I tried to do that.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

No i m not mad at you and it doesn't feel you are pushing ur beliefs on me,just keep talking ;)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you, I was worried about that. No one should force their religion upon someone. That is wrong. It has happened so many times, in history. Actually, in history more Christians have tortured and killed people for not becoming Christians. That is sad


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

There is nothing to worry about,I m sporty,open-minded..Say what You want :) and confine Yourself to the subject..don't drift away..by the way,who killed who?specify please:)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Some say "The Jews" killed Jesus, some say " Pilate" who was the governor of that area, from Rome. However there is something interesting, at least to me, that was written by Pliney the Younger, the son of Pliney the elder. Both were Roman historians. Pliney the Younger lived during the time Jesus was crucified. He wrote that a man with the name of Jesus was crucifed.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

There are also writing outside of the bible. Historians who wrote about Jesus. One of the was named Josephus (born AD 37) was a Jewish historian. He became a Pharisee at the age 19 and in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. In Josephus' antiquities, there are two quotes that mention Jesus. Here is the first and smaller quote:

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Here is the second Josephus reference, the Testimonium Flavianum, as it is popularly called. The authenticity of the passage was first questioned in the 16th century; one of its most significant detractors was the French sceptic Voltaire. The passage reads:

Antiquities 18.3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

God is the creator,the only one who has right to take our lives.The Giver,the Taker,The Ruler,The King of the Kings.To kill is like to interfer in God's business,It's like saying to God"I didn't like the way You ruled the world,so I killed this person to set things right"That s ,unfortunately,what happened throught the entire history of man,the worst atrocities were carried in the name of GOD in one form or an other.People were decieved and led by fakes,hypocrites,judgemental,abominators and a jaundiced eyes.It s worth to mention here that according to the Apocalypse of Peter that was discovered in Egypt, Jesus sat on the tree and watched the crucified one getting crucified.Peter witnessed this and wrote the Apocalypse.Not only that,but while Christians insist that the book is a Gnostic one,but according to Wikipedia.org,"It is unclear whether this text advocates an adoptionist (Jesus was Divine) or docetist (Jesus' body and crucifixion were an illusion) christology"

So there is no proof that the book is Gnostic.)


Jesshubpages 4 years ago

I believe and uphold the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that there are 3 God's but there are three distinct person in one God. This is how marvelous God is. He is beyond imagination and beyond human comprehension. The trinity is taught from Genesis until revelation not by the Romans or any one.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Jess!what makes you believe in that?do You believe that Bible we have today is the true God s Word?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Why would Jesus laugh at the "other man on the cross" if as the Quoran states "And raised high the esteem (In which) thou (are held)?". The prophet's (any prophet) virtues, the magnanimity of his character, and his love for mankind were fully recognized even in his lifetime, and his name stands highest among the heroic leaders of mankind. Please forgive me, I did have to look that up and copy and paste it.


Jesshubpages 4 years ago

To revengadown, I do believe that the Christian Bible today is God's Word. Sir, the Bible changed my life, is giving me hope and strength to on my earthly journey. I'm not sure if you too believe as I do but I say yes to your answer.


Ms Dee profile image

Ms Dee 4 years ago from Texas, USA

Interesting read and post, Michele. I am concerned how the doctrine of the trinity gets twisted and then discourages pagans of today from taking the Bible seriously. Since nowhere in the Bible is the word "trinity" used, I can't help but wonder how much emphasis to give it, myself. And many verses seem to suggest God is not three individual persons for example, Rev 22:3. There is one throne (singular) for God and the Lamb to sit on, not two.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ms Dee thank you for your comment. I agree with you. Also, a son can be like his father, but is not his father. Thank you so much for your comment.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

To Jess,I supported what I believe in here by proofs and I ask questions but nobody seems to be able to answer them,all of you have responded? but not answered me,I m talking scientifically not emotionally


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I gave you an answer from the Qu'ran about what is written in it about Jesus. He could not laugh at the man on the cross, because of the way the Qu'ran describes him.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

OK,me too I m going to give you an answer from Bible that JESUS wasn't crucified.Psalm 91 clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!It is,first of all,important to know that Psalm 91 is referenced more than once in the New Testament for Jesus Christ.So we know for certainty that Psalm 91 is referring to the coming Messiah in the Bible:

Luke 4:10-12

10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.

11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”

12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”

Matthew 4:5-10

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple,

6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”

7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”

8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”

10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

There are few points to notice in these verses:

1- Notice how satan referred to Psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus.

2- Notice how Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 was indeed speaking about him by saying "the Scriptures also say..." (Luke 4:12 and Matthew 4:7).

3- As we will see in the points below, Psalm 91 is not just concerned with preventing Christ or the Messiah from striking his feet against the ground


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

According to Isaiah 52:13 Verses.Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected and lifted by GOD Almighty.Also,the New Testament,again,confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus Christ.

GOD Almighty will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and will save him (Psalm 91:3).

GOD Almighty will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).

Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).

Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).

No harm (this includes crucifixion!) or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10....this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion).

GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14, Isaiah 52:13). Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.

Christ's call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13). No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified.

His life will be prolonged (extended) and he will live to even see his offspring (Isaiah 53:10 and Psalm 91:16, which by the way contradict Jesus never got married and had children. In Islam's Noble Quran's 13:38, however, it is quite possible that Jesus Christ had wives and children).

His life will overpower death (Isaiah 53:12).

"Death" in Isaiah 53:9 is proven to be symbolic using the Hebrew Lexicon and several English translations, and it never meant a literal death.

Important Note: Psalm 91 is speaking as a number of Prophecies that WILL take place.Notice how the verses are speak of future events that WILL TAKE PLACE.Never once throughout the entire New Testament were the Angels sent to save Jesus from striking his foot against a rock. This, again, clearly proves that the NT is indeed false and corrupt.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Noble Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture):

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....".Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament whatsoever $6.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Yes, it is written in these Scriptures, but then why was Jesus the only one satan was trying to get to worship him? He did not offer the world to anyone else. Never did he offer the world to anyone else. Also, it is true, Jesus did have protection of the of the Angels. However, it was his choice to allow himself to be crucified for our sins. If he had called on the Angels, he would have been taken from the cross by the Angels. Instead, he allowed Himself to be crucified for our sins.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Jesus doesn't choose to end up His life in that way as You believe.He was predistined and He doesn't look as hero in Bible..GOD Almighty Created pain and death,and Jesus feared them!here r the verses:

Matthew 26:36-44

36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."

37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND PRAYED, "My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.

41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.

44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.

The very fact that Jesus begged GOD Almighty for Mercy because he feared the pain and death of the crucifixion proves that Jesus FEARED PAIN AND DEATH! Yet, the Creator of this Universe, GOD Almighty, did also Create pain and death. It doesn't make any sense that GOD would fear the pain and death that He Created. This again proves that Jesus is not the Creator of the Universe.

Don't forget also that according to the Old Testament, Jesus was supposed to have the Spirit of Fear (Fearing GOD Almighty) in him:

Isaiah 11:1-3

"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of

counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--

3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or

decide by what he hears with his ears;"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Son of God" is the same as "Servant of God" in Hebrew!In modern English usage, the Son of God is almost always a reference to Jesus Christ, whom Christianity holds to be the son of the Christian God, eternally begotten of God the Father and coeternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Human or part-human offspring of deities are very common in other religions and mythologies, however. For example in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest recorded legends of humanity, Gilgamesh claimed to be of both human and divine descent. Another well-known son of a god and a human is Hercules.

a great many pantheons also included genealogies in which various gods were descended from other gods, and so the term "son of god" may be applied to many actual deities as well so the "Son of GOD" theory originally comes from pagan Greek origins. And since most of the Bible's New Testament was written in Greek, then it had been without a doubt negatively influenced by such pagan theology, where Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is literally interpreted today as "part of GOD" or the "Creator of the Universe".

"In the Hebrew Bible Israel is both a man (Jacob, the son of Isaac) and the nation that descended from him.

Because of the shared name and organic identity, God speaks to the nation as though he were a single person. Israel is, in fact, God's son (Exod 4:22 — beni vechori yisrael; Deut 14:1 — banim atem l'Adonai; Jer 31:9 — ki hayiti le'yisrael le'av; Hosea 11:1 — mimitzrayim qarati livni).

Israel's Father nurtures him to grow up and become a worshiping servant (Exod 4:23 — "Let my son go that he may serve me")we see when Israel became GOD Almighty's "son", he reached the point of being GOD Almighty's "servant". This means that "son of GOD" is nothing but a "Servant of GOD" as clearly defined in Islam. It doesn't at all mean that the individual is part of GOD Almighty, or he is GOD the Father Himself.

This is further proven in this quote:

"The Inner Son Rescues His People

Read together, these texts make clear that the Plan (etzah) is set in God's mind. He will use the anointed one — and his circle of faithful-to-God disciples — as his agent for bringing rebellious Israel back to his sonship calling.

YHVH formed me from the womb to be His Servant,

to bring Jacob back to him,

in order that Israel might be gathered to Him.

It is too small a thing that you should be

my Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,

and to restore the preserved ones [netzurim] of Israel . . . (Isa 49:5, 6)

It's worth noting that the apostles Paul and Barnabas quoted this passage in reference to themselves, as being members of the Messiah's Remnant Israel (Acts 13:46-48; cf. Luke 2:32).

Thus, within the writings of Isaiah we observe the tensions, paradoxes, and hopes for fixing what is broken — both within God's servant people and in the creation as a whole. To accomplish this there are two who serve the Lord, two with the title "Eved.So the Son of GOD's main responsibility is to Serve GOD Almighty and to Worship Him alone. So a Son of GOD is basically a Servant of GOD. Also, Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is also no different. Him being the "Son of GOD" means he is a Servant of GOD Almighty


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Will come back later. Tornadoes coming. Columbus, ohio


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

OH.OK HOPE U LL BE SAFE AND SOUND


kittythedreamer profile image

kittythedreamer 4 years ago from the Ether

Just to give a little further background on Easter. The term "Easter" is actually not a Christian word but actually Pagan. "Easter" is based off of an old Germanic goddess named "Eostre"...also known as "ostara". Her feast was celebrated at the vernal equinox...and so the Christian Easter is set to be the Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Also, the eggs and bunny are symbols of fertility.

As for the Trinity, one of the big ones was the Trinity of the Irish Goddess Brighid (she was a triple Goddess of poetry, smithing, and spirit). Also there is the Wiccan triple Goddess - the maiden, mother, and crone which is exemplified in many ancient Pagan beliefs other than the Irish Brighid. There is also the Morrigan and more.

Also, just to elaborate on what the last person was talking about with the Epic of Gilgamesh...isn't that the same document where the main character is turned into a wolf of sorts?

Thanks for sharing.


Jesshubpages 4 years ago

Hi! kittythedreamer....I like your input. May people even Christian celebrates Easter which should not be. Godbless.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Yes,right Kittythedreamer,It s when Gilgamesh refuses to become the lover of the goddess Ishtar because of her cruel treatment of her previous suitors.She turned one man, a shepherd, into a wolf,making him the enemy of his friends, his sheep and even his own dogs and Ishtar isn't the only ancient god to change a mortal into a wolf.In Ovid's "The Metamorphoses,"a traveler visits the home of King Lycaon of Acadia.Lycaon suspects that the visitor is immortal,so he devises a test.He serves human meat to his guest,who unfortunately turns out to be the god Jupiter.The later immediately recognizes the meat's origin,and he transforms Lycaon into a wolf. Lycaon's name and the word lycanthropy both come from the same root lykos which is in GREEK,means wolf.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank You revendgadown we had some damage, but we are ok. But back to what you and I were talking about. Yes satan did try to temp Jesus into worshiping him. But, why was Jesus the only one satan ever tried to get to worship him? Satan never tried to get anyone else ever. Satan offered Jesus the entire world ( which is another entire topic) if only Jesus would worship him. But, Jesus would not. Also, it is true, Angels were there to protect Jesus because Jesus had the Choice not to be crucified. If he had chosen not to be crucified, then the Angels would have come and taken Him off the cross. Jesus was given the choice of being crucified for our sins. He was not forced to be crucified for our sins. I do know, that in Mark 15: 34 Jesus cries out " My God, My God why has thou forsaken me?" However if you read Mark 15:35 When one of those standing near heard this, they said " Listen, he is calling Elijah."

So, he is not calling God about being crucified. We also need to understand, that he died at that moment. So, it must be that Elijah had come at that moment because Jesus died at that moment. Because He was calling Elijah. Or better yet said, calling God for Elijah to come. It was time for Jesus to come down from the cross in death. That was the moment, Jesus did come down from the cross in death.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Thanks Kitty for the precious information you added here.It would be very amazing and fruitful if many people get in here and add what they believe in.

Undoubtly,Easter is a pagan holiday,honered by nearly all of contemporary Christianity and is used to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ-which I don't believe in-.The first thing we must understand is that Ishtar is pronounced "Easter"which was a day that commemorated the resurrection of one of their gods that they called "Tammuz",who was believed to be the only begotten son of the moon-goddess and the sun-god.In those ancient times, there was a man named Nimrod,who was the grandson of one of Noah's son named Ham.The latter had a son named Cush who married a woman named Semiramis.Cush and Semiramis then had a son named him "Nimrod.After the death of his father,Nimrod married his own mother and became a powerful King.The Bible tells of of this man, Nimrod, in Genesis 10:8-10 as follows:"And Cush begat Nimrod:he began to be a mighty one in the earth.He was a mighty hunter before the Lord:wherefore it is said,even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel,and Erech,and Accad,and Calneh,in the land of Shinar."

Nimrod became a god-man to the people and Semiramis, his wife and mother,became the powerful Queen of ancient Babylon.Nimrod was eventually killed by an enemy,and his body was cut in pieces and sent to various parts of his kingdom.Semiramis had all of the parts gathered,except for one part that could not be found.That missing part was his reproductive organ.Semiramis claimed that Nimrod could not come back to life without it and told the people of Babylon that Nimrod had ascended to the sun and was now to be called "Baal",the sun god.Queen Semiramis also proclaimed that Baal would be present on earth in the form of a flame,whether candle or lamp,when used in worship.Semiramis was creating a mystery religion,and with the help of Satan,she set herself up as a goddess.Semiramis claimed that she was immaculately conceived.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

She taught that the moon was a goddess that went through a 28 day cycle and ovulated when full.She further claimed that she came down from the moon in a giant moon egg that fell into the Euphrates River.This was to have happened at the time of the first full moon after the spring equinox.Semiramis became known as "Ishtar" which is pronounced "Easter", and her moon egg became known as "Ishtar's" egg.Ishtar soon became pregnant and claimed that it was the rays of the sun-god Baal that caused her to conceive.The son that she brought forth was named Tammuz.This latter was noted to be especially fond of rabbits,and they became sacred in the ancient religion, because Tammuz was believed to be the son of the sun-god, Baal. Tammuz, like his supposed father, became a hunter.

The day came when Tammuz was killed by a wild pig.Queen Ishtar told the people that Tammuz was now ascended to his father,Baal,and that the two of them would be with the worshippers in the sacred candle or lamp flame as Father, Son and Spirit.Ishtar,who was now worshipped as the "Mother of God and Queen of Heaven",continued to build her mystery religion.The queen told the worshippers that when Tammuz was killed by the wild pig, some of his blood fell on the stump of an evergreen tree, and the stump grew into a full new tree overnight. This made the evergreen tree sacred by the blood of Tammuz.She also proclaimed a forty day period of time of sorrow each year prior to the anniversary of the death of Tammuz.During this time,no meat was to be eaten.Worshippers were to meditate upon the sacred mysteries of Baal and Tammuz,and to make the sign of the "T" in front of their hearts as they worshipped.They also ate sacred cakes with the marking of a "T" or cross on the top.Every year,on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox,a celebration was made.It was Ishtar's Sunday and was celebrated with rabbits and eggs.Ishtar also proclaimed that because Tammuz was killed by a pig, that a pig must be eaten on that Sunday.

By now,I guess you can see the connection that paganism has infiltrated the contemporary "Christian" churches, and further study indicates that this paganism came in by way of the Roman Catholic System.

According to the Bible that you believe in,in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."The truth is that the forty days of Lent,eggs,rabbits,hot cross buns and the Easter ham have everything to do with the ancient pagan religion of Mystery Babylon.These are all antichrist activities!ONE HAS TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND NOT TO TAKE THINGS THEY WERE TAUGHT ABOUT GOD's nature in CHURCH,HOUSE,SCHOOL FOR GRANTED OR AS BOB DYLAN SAYS YOU NEVER ASK QUESTIONS WHEN GOD'S ON YOUR SIDE ONE HAS TO DO LIKE DECARTS IF WE WANT TO FIND TRUTH.

well,Satan is a master deceiver,and has filled the lives of well-meaning,professing Christians with idolatry.These things bring the wrath of God upon people of disobedience,who try to make pagan customs of Baal worship Christian.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

You may or may not have recognized this, but many Christians are starting to understand the pagan roots of the traditions. We may give presents to our children. But, many do not celebrate these holidays because we know they are pagan. ( Ok not everybody) We do know Jesus died for our sins. We do know Jesus rose from the dead. You can see that in my hubs, that is why people find them "interesting"

satan is a master deceiver, and has filled many with horrible things. Money and power is the worst. Many humans want money and power. That is the thing that can take all of humanity out of people


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

oh I forget one thing to mention here,a small notice:the holiday often involves some churches' services at sunrise which means customs of Easter honor Baal,who is also Satan, and is still worshipped as the "Rising Sun" and his house is the "House of the Rising Sun."!!!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is interesting. Song about it also, but that is what you were writing about. I need to leave, but am not finished. I am going to stay on this subject, but am starting to think more about Revelation. When Revelation does come, will the Jewish people, and the Christian people, and the Muslim people stand together? What does the Qu'ran say about the Revelation? I may need to look that up. But, you know more then I do about that.


kittythedreamer profile image

kittythedreamer 4 years ago from the Ether

WOW. SUPER interesting. I had no idea about any of that involved with Easter, Ishtar and Baal. The correlation is uncanny. The ham, the sunrise services, the hot-cross buns, the T mark...everything is very clear there now. But I still believe that Easter also ties into the old Germanic Eostre and the Pagan feast of the Spring Equinox. Not to spin things up, but I am not Christian. :) However, I do find religion & traditions to be very intriguing and I love studying theses things. Thanks for sharing!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

well,Mechele Thank GOD you are safe and everything is perfectly well,now it s your turn for your questions to be answered,sorry it took me long and as you see I was induldged in answering Miss kitty here hehe well,without beating about the bush,let me start by Baruch Spinoza 's quotations from some of his letters :

1.to Hugo Boxel(1974):

When you say that if I deny, that the operations of seeing, hearing, attending, wishing, &c., can be ascribed to God, or that they exist in Him in any eminent fashion, you do not know what sort of God mine is; I suspect that you believe there is no greater perfection than such as can be explained by the aforesaid attributes. I am not astonished; for I believe that, if a triangle could speak, it would say, in like manner, that God is eminently triangular, while a circle would say that the divine nature is eminently circular. Thus each would ascribe to God its own attributes, would assume itself to be like God, and look on everything else as ill-shaped.

...That we do many things in the world from conjecture is true, but that our redactions are based on conjecture is false. In practical life we are compelled to follow what is most probable; in speculative thought we are compelled to follow truth. A man would perish of hunger and thirst, if he refused to eat or drink,till he had obtained positive proof that food and drink would be good for him. But in philosophic reflection this is not so.On the contrary,we must take care not to admit as true anything, which is only probable.For when one falsity has been let in,infinite others follow.

2.To Henry Oldenburg (1675):

I make this chief distinction between religion and superstition, that the latter is founded on ignorance, the former on knowledge; this, I take it, is the reason why Christians are distinguished from the rest of the world, not by faith, nor by charity, nor by the other fruits of the Holy Spirit, but solely by their opinions, inasmuch as they defend their cause, like everyone else, by miracles, that is by ignorance, which is the source of all malice; thus they turn a faith, which may be true, into superstition.

3.To Albert Burgh(1974):

you, who presume that you have at last found the best religion, or rather the best men, on whom you have pinned your credulity, you, "who know that they are the best among all who have taught, do now teach, or shall in future teach other religions. Have you examined all religions, ancient as well as modern, taught here and in India and everywhere throughout the world? And, if you, have duly examined them, how do you know that you have chosen the best" since you can give no reason for the faith that is in you? But you will say, that you acquiesce in the inward testimony of the Spirit of God, while the rest of mankind are ensnared and deceived by the prince of evil spirits. But all those outside the pale of the Romish Church can with equal right proclaim of their own creed what you proclaim of yours.

As to what you add of the common consent of myriads of men and the uninterrupted ecclesiastical succession, this is the very catch-word of the Pharisees. They with no less confidence than the devotees of Rome bring forward their myriad witnesses, who as pertinaciously as the Roman witnesses repeat what they have heard, as though it were their personal experience. Further, they carry back their line to Adam. They boast with equal arrogance, that their Church has continued to this day unmoved and unimpaired in spite of the hatred of Christians and heathen. They more than any other sect are supported by antiquity. They exclaim with one voice, that they have received their traditions from God Himself, and that they alone preserve the Word of God both written and unwritten. That all heresies have issued from them, and that they have remained constant through thousands of years under no constraint of temporal dominion, but by the sole efficacy of their superstition, no one can deny. The miracles they tell of would tire a thousand tongues. But their chief boast is, that they count a far greater number of martyrs than any other nation, a number which is daily increased by those who suffer with singular constancy for the faith they profess; nor is their boasting false. I myself knew among others of a certain Judah called the faithful, who in the midst of the flames, when he was already thought to be dead, lifted his voice to sing the hymn beginning, "To Thee, O God, I offer up my soul," and so singing perished.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

In the light of above,One has to use logic as a way to understand things and to convince others.Going just saying:I m on the right path or what I have is the ultimate truth leads nowhere.It's kind of uppity and standoffishness.One has to quit the policy of hiding head in the sand,sticking to what he used to believe in or to listen just to one side.

One thing that you may not know is that the BIBLE you have today has undergone many different changes firstly and secondly what you have is just translations not the real origin text.let s have a look:

King James Version:

Acts 3:25 - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

New King James Version

Acts 3:25 - You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

In the KJV,we find that Jesus is God's Son.In the NKJV, we find that He is God's servant.These are clearly not the same!The Greek word found in the text here is "pais". It can be used in Greek for either "son" or "servant."So which one is correct here?

the solution is simple:look at the context in which it is used.In English,we have many words that can have more than one meaning.If a translator,going from English to another language,came across the word "bear,"he would have a choice of meanings.But it wouldn't take rocket science to figure out which one to use.

Now look at the Bible passage above. What is being discussed?

1."children of the prophets"

2."covenant which God made with our fathers"

3."in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."

It's clear,isn't it?the passage is talking about "children," and "fathers" and "seed."the word "pais" means "son."But the New King James translators chose "servant."Why?they were not alone.the New World Translation,created by the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the deity of Jesus,translated this word"servant" also.so do the NIV, ASV, NASB and other modern Bible translations.

could it be that these modern translators disagree that "pais" can be translated "son?" No,the NKJV committee translates this very word as "boy," "child" or "son" in Matthew 2:16; 17:18; 21:15; Luke 2:43; 9:42; and John 4:51.yet they refused to translate the word as "son" in this powerful sermon where Peter presents Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.

One has to ask, why were these translators so determined to deny the deity of Jesus in this passage? Is this a Bible you can trust with your eternal destiny?

If the passage described a man with a heavy burden, the translator would understand that the man is going to "bear," or "carry" the burden. If, on the other hand, the passage described a hairy beast climbing a tree,the translator would understand the correct meaning here applies to a forest-dwelling animal that will eat nearly anything it finds. It's not really very hard.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

And do you know that it is generally agreed that the historical Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic?It isn't Greek or Hebrew,so the true original Script is in Aramaic,God sent His Messengers to nations by its tongues,that s why the movie THE PASSION OF CHRIST was in Aramaic and other thing almost to forget "Torah" O.T wasn't in Hebrew because Moses lived in EGYPT and the language was spoken in EGYPT wasn't Hebrew!!!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

OK.Michele..We believe that Jesus is still alive,waiting GOD 's Order to send Him back to earth to set it right and He will fight for Muslims against Anti-Christ' followers(Jews,Christains,pagans).He is the one who will kill Anti-Christ.Before Jesus comes,we are given some signs.A general and very important sign is that he will come at a time when there is great confusion,intense disputes and violent death.When people are afflicted by disturbances and fear.calamities will fall upon the people,so much so that a man shall not find shelter to shelter him from oppression.there will be many battles and choas before his appearance.Every time a disturbance has come to an end,another will start,spread and intensify.the people will be troubled to such extent that they will long for death.tt is then that Imaam Mahdi A MUSLIM LEADER will be sent.The the Messenger of Allah MOHAMED peace be upon him says:

'He will be sent at a time of intense disputes and differences among people and earthquakes.''

and the final hour will not come until the river Euphrates (which flows through Syria and Iraq and finally opens in the Gulf) will disclose a mountain of gold over which people will fight and die.it should be noted that this is a sign,which will precede Imaam Mahdi and THE MESSENGER peace be upon him 'The hour shall not occur until the Euphrates will disclose a mountain of gold over which people will fight .Ninety- nine out of which hundred shall be killed and every one of them will say' Perchance I shall be the one to succeed. ''


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is very interesting. I do have a bible that has been in my family for years, that is the KJV and what you wrote is correct. I do not know why they changed the word "Son" to " Servant"


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Yes, Jesus did speak Aramaic. And the original script was written in Aramaic.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is very interesting. Our Revelation also tells us about Wars, calamities, death, persecution. Also the beast, and the anti-christ. Does the Qu'ran write anything about a mark of the beast?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Yes,it does.here is the Version from Holy Qur'an:

And when the Word (of torment) is fulfilled against them, We shall bring out from the earth a beast to them, which will speak to them because mankind believed not with certainty in Our Ayat"

This Aya speaking of something symbolic,materialism or evil.Islam does not believe in "the beast" the way that Christians do.there is no 666 or literal "mark of the beast".Perhaps greed or immorality will be the mark of the beast.

I read some articals about this issue,some are based grudges and prejudicestowards Islam and some on personal speculations:

some stated that Islam is the beast.The beast's prophet is Mohammed and The mark of the beast is that infernal Arabic writing across their Jihad head and arm bands, which is the name of Allah´called the'bismillah'in Arabic.and some states that it is a warn explicity in QUR'AN and BIBLE,especially its mark and its use in business transactions.I remember the Bible stating that whoever gets the mark of the beast will forever be lost, while the Quran also echoes a very similar message.I recently read on wikipedia that this "mark used for business transactions" may in fact be the everyday credit card. In the near future, there is even mention of implanting a chip in your right hand or your forehead for business transactions. Is this not the mark of the beast?:) and some articals depends on The Prophet Peace be apon him:"the emergence of the beast, whose form will be very strange,its addressing the people and classifying them according to their faith or unbelief,..."Most scholars do not take this as literal. Many believe that the beast is the State of Israel. Such branding is already occurring there as Palestinians have to have Identification cards that mark them as Muslim and non-Muslim Palestinians.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

To the reply of your Question about the shift of word from"son" to 'servent'.As matter of fact,all of mankind are the servants of God.if a man were to own another man then that man would be his servant.obviously this servant would be held in a lower regard than this man's own children (or himself.we do not usually find people telling their sons (or themselves):"come here my servant,"or "Go over there my servant."Let us compare this with what God has to say about Jesus (pbuh):

1.Matthew 12:18: "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen."

2.Acts 3:13(RSV): "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,.... hath glorified his servant Jesus."

3.Acts 4:27(RSV): "For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed...."

The actual Greek word used is"pias" or"paida" which mean; "servant,child,son,manservant."Some translations of the Bible,such as the popular King James Version,have translated this word as "Son" when it is attributed to Jesus (pbuh) and "servant" for most everyone else,while more recent translations of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) now honestly translate it as "servant."

the RSV was compiled by thirty two Biblical scholars of the highest eminence,backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations from the"most"ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today.Chances are that no matter what your church or denomination you are able to name,that church took part in the correction of the King James Version of the Bible which resulted in the RSV.

the exact same word "pias" is attributed to Jacob(Israel) in Luke 1:54 and translated as "servant":

"He hath helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy;."

It is also applied to King David in Luke 1:69,and once again,it is translated as "servant":

"....the house of his servant David'

however,when it is applied to Jesus (e.g.Acts 3:13,Acts 4:27)now it is translated as "Son."notice that it is not only translated as "son" but as "Son".Why the double standard? Why the dishonest translation techniques?

nd verily, among them is a party who twist their tongues with the Scripture that you might think that it is from the Scripture but it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from Allah' but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while [well] they know it!"

The noble Quran, Aal Umran(3):78

"The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant of Allah, nor will the favored angels.whosoever scorns His service and is proud,all such will He assemble unto Him;Then as for those who believed and did good works,unto them will he pay their wages in full and shall increase them from His bounty.(But]as for those who were scornful and proud, He shall punish hem with a painful torment,nor will they find for themselves other than Allah any ally or champion"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):172-174


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It s worth to mention that he Bible's theologians claim that current Bible's books and gospels authors and dates are unknown.This means that the Bible that was written in the very complex and extremely sensitive Hebrew language was not even written by people who were chosen by GOD Almighty.Secondly,The Bible's original Divine Manuscripts were completely lost.The ones that we currently have are re-writes from the unknown authors that came hundreds of years after the original manuscripts had been written or Divinely Revealed.Thirdly,The Hebrew Manuscripts that were found,their pages were both broken/torn into pieced, and the text was vague and not very clear due to it being hidden under sand for the thousands of years in other words,the manuscripts were partial.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Thanks for this hub and all your comments. Yes, God does love His children, and He does not want any of them to perish. That is why he sent His son. His patience is beyond our understanding. In His Love.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Faith Reaper,I have a question for you:What must I do to inherit eternal life?


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Revengadown, please read for yourself in His Word (The Bible) John 3:16, where He tells us how we may have eternal life. If you do not have a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, then I plead with you to get down on your face before the Lord and ask the Lord God almighty to reveal His truths to you. The cross is foolishness to an unbeliever and when an unbeliever reads His Word it will make no sense at all to him. Jesus has already paid the highest price for our sins. We have ALL fallen short. There is no one "good enough" to earn their way into Heaven. There is only one way, and that way is through hIS son, Jesus. But don't ask me, ask God himself. Go into a quiet place alone and get on your face before the Lord. He knows you, Revengadown, He knows your every thought, your every pain, your every fear, there is nothing, I mean nothing, that can take away the love He has for you. He loves everything thing about you, as you are created in His image. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. May God reveal His truths to you, no matter what you have been told who you are in this world, but let Him tell you who you are. He knew you long before He knit you in your mother's womb. In His Love,Faith Reaper.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Faith Reaper,When I debate with Christians like you,they generally say that the only way a person can get saved and go to Heaven is to believe and accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior who died for him on the cross to purify him from his sins.Anyone who doesn't believe in this would not be saved.They always bring the following verses from the Bible as a proof to this claim:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(From the NIV Bible, John 14:6)"

"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him(From the NIV Bible, John 3:15-17)"

It is important to know that most of the Bible, especially the New Testament , has general and controversial statements like this one.This verse might sound like a clear proof for the Trinitarians,but as we read the verses below, we will see that it really doesn't mean that the person HAS TO ACCEPT JESUS AS HIS MEDIATOR between him and GOD Almighty to be saved.let us read the following:

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. (From the NIV Bible, James 2:8)"

"The entire law is summed up in a single command:'Love your neighbor as yourself.'(From the NIV Bible, Galatians 5:14)"

Jesus said: loving GOD Almighty so much and being nice to your neighbors will cause you to have eternal life:

Luke 10

25.On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26."What is written in the Law?" he replied."How do you read it?"

27.He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied."Do this and you will live."

Jesus here didn't talk about any trinity-lie concept, nor did he say to the man that he must accept Jesus as a mediator between him and GOD Almighty to win Eternal Life.Jesus was pretty clear and straight forward here: LOVE GOD ALMIGHTY AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF. That is simply all there is to it to win eternal life in Jesus' standards.You may ask probably despite of all the evidences I stated here: What if I (Christian) am right and you (Muslim) are wrong?or in an other what if the belief about Jesus being the Creator of the Universe is true?What will happen to you as a non-believer?my answer to these questions is quite simple:I believe I would still be saved according to the Bible.Jesus himself guaranteed Paradise to those who Love and adore GOD Almighty, without making any reference or giving any relevance to the belief of trinity or him dying on the cross for anyone's sins:

Luke 10

25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

This is what I found when I looked,I dare you to prove me wrong from the Bible!!!


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Revengadwon, I'm glad you have read for yourself! And I have no desire to debate with you on any of God's Living and Active Word. I am one who needs no proof, as I have faith in my Lord since a very young child, and no one had to prove anything to me. I am glad you are searching, but as I said, just ask God himself to reveal His truths to you. We are under a new covenant since Jesus came, there is no law, His grace is sufficient. Everyone has free will to make one's choice. I will pray that the Lord reveals himself to you in ways only He knows he can. In His Love, Theresa


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It's you who has to seek the truth not me because I m already on the Right Path.I'll be Your witness when you try to lie on God by saying:"I never heard of ISLAM" and then I will be pointed by God to speak the truth.Just remember this day,This time!!

You took what you believe in now from your parents not by your own,If it is by your own won't believe in that LIE AND LIVING IT!this is what our Prophet mohamed peace be upon him says as his apostle narrated:“No one is born except they are upon Al-Fitr?h (instinct).His parents turn him into a Jew or Christian or Magian,just as animals produce their young with perfect limbs.Do you see anything defective?” Then Abu Hurairah, recite the verse if you wish, “So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth.(Adhere to) the fitrah of All?h upon which He has created the people.No change should there be in the creation of All?h. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.” (Surah Ar-R?m 30:30)


jamila sahar profile image

jamila sahar 4 years ago

greetings very interesting hub, thanks for sharing


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Most Precious One to Him, Revengadown, I love you, as you pointed out, love God, love others. it is true, I do need to deepen my relatioship with my Lord Jesus; as it is an ongoing personal and very intimate relationship. I am maturing in Christ every day, and thankfully He is not finished with me, and that will be the day I see Him face-to-face. I know he knows my heart. As His Word tells us, if one does not love, one does not know God. I only love because He first loved me. I only know God because I do love others, and I love you as well. What you assumed about my parents is an untruth. I did not take my beliefs from my parents, I found it myself, just as you will or have. Peace be with you. As you have said, I will remember this day, this time! I'm glad you have shared your beliefs with me. My belief is that He came to save the whole world, not just a few of us. Praise Him! I respect your beliefs, and I pray you can respect mine. In His Love, Faith Reaper


GoGreenTips profile image

GoGreenTips 4 years ago from Indianapolis

I enjoyed reading your hub! Interesting post and information. It is interesting to see how politicinas, kings and the elite have used their abiulity to manipulate knowledge and the information that we receive to control and decieve the masses.

The pagan religion was replaced with Christianity by manipulating knowledge and information. Its interesting to see how Christians, especially when reading your comments, can't accept the truth about the roots of their religion.

Religion has really nothing to do with your belief in God, but more to do with a way that past and present leaders control and manipulate people.


Dale Hyde profile image

Dale Hyde 4 years ago from Tropical Paradise on Planet X

Quite a comment thread here. I will be short and simple..well I am six feet tall, but my comment will follow the above.

As a Pagan...a Wiccan High Priest.. I will say this, that Paganism far outdates the "new" religion of Christianity. History proves this. Nevertheless, Jesus taught a very Pagan message about love, compassion and forgiveness. The Christ was a wonderful teacher and most honored and revered by most Pagans for such.

I, for one, honor all Paths...respect all Paths and see the Truth in all Paths. :)


sunkentreasure profile image

sunkentreasure 4 years ago

THE GREATNESS OF JESUS By BERNARD LEVINE

The most influential life

ever to have lived on this earth

The greatest love this world has known

The central fulfillment

of hundreds of Bible prophecies

The leading key figure of humanity

Jesus is unique

He walked on water

He raised the dead

He opened blind eyes

He brought us eternal life

Only through His blood

can we be pardoned

Only through His name

can we receive God's power

Only through His life

can we find victory

Lord Jesus

We love and worship you.

© Bernard Levine


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

When Jesus said:"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(From the NIV Bible,John 14:6)",if we take the meanings of this verse in the same context in Luke 10:25-28 and the other verses that teach about love,harmony and forgiveness, then we would clearly see that the way that Jesus talked about is the goodness in you.If you love GOD Almighty with your heart and soul and you are a good person and love people and always try to be the best example to every person you meet then you will win the Eternal Life.Accepting Jesus as the mediator between you and GOD Almighty(believing that Jesus died on the cross to purify your sins)is not necessary to win Eternal Life,and according to the Early Christians'doctrines during the 1st and 2nd centuries,Jesus never got crucified , which is exactly what Islam also claims.

the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians who never know about trinity doctrine at all.The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.

even in the modern age there are churches in Asia,in Africa,the Unitarian church,the Jehovah's witnesses,and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus(peace be upon him)as one in three,as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."

Moreover,the 'Socinianism',the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin,the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562),the Italian Protestant theologian.

Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written,"As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense,but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures".So another priest who was deny the trinity.

a theologians,Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity.This caused concern to the Vatican.


Vegas Elias profile image

Vegas Elias 4 years ago from Mumbai

Well researched writing. The Roman Catholic Church has given in so much to paganism that most of Christs important teachings are distorted.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Very true Vegas Elias!


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Gotten off track - Yes, back to the pagan question, as -I am guilty too of the chocolate bunnies and the Easter Egg hunts, and I will especially love filling Easter baskets for my two granddaughters and buying those special outfits to wear on Easter. I have always loved doing that same thing when my children were growing up - guilty Christian. Very interesting hub! In His Love, Faith Reaper


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Oh that s so sweet:) well,Religion must be distinct and pure from man s fabrications,hallucinations,because it s inspired by GOD.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Revengadown, Ha, love the sarcasm, just confessing how Christians can and do fall into all of the commercial aspect of our society - the secular world view, and that is how satan is so deceitful, as he has practiced his deception for thousands of years. For me, though, Easter is truly the most celebrated time in my life, for if it weren't for the Resurrection, then there would be no basis for our beliefs - Jesus is no longer on the cross. He is risen!!! In His Love, Faith Reaper


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ revengadiwb I do not believe the beast will come from Islam. Because the beast is against all of humanity. So, no the beast will not come from Islam. Also, the beast's prophet is not Mohammed. There are many who believe that the New World Order will be start of Armageden so the beast will not come from any religion.


kittythedreamer profile image

kittythedreamer 4 years ago from the Ether

Wow, Michele! Did you have any idea that your hub was spark such a comment thread? Congrats on that, love! I have to agree with Dale, but I love the passion that everyone is displaying here. I voted up again, Michele. :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Please forgive me for this, but I have written a hub asking a question about the Vatican and what is hidden from us. Because the Vatican has a room about 5 miles worth of writings that is guarded. No one is allowed to even look at the room. No one is allowed in it. That is why the door is guarded. No one, at all is allowed to enter the room to see what is in it. So, there are some very important writings that are hidden from us. I pray we could see them, but so far we cannot.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@faith Reaper thank you for your comment. I agree with you. But, as I wrote before, there are many things in the Vatican that are hidden from us, maybe we would be able to understand more if we were allowed to read what is hidden there. But, I do know God loves all of his children.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

There are several things that were mentioned here that are true, and I feel I need to comment on. First there is no Trinity. That is one of the reasons Constantine tried to get Pagans to turn into Christians. A father is not his son. Also, God said " Thou shall have no other gods before me" there are no other gods. Only God. Jesus is God's Son, but He is not God. That is why is seated on a throne next to God in Revelation. Why would he call God my Father?

@Faith Reaper yes Jesus has risen and that is why our sin have been forgive!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

No, I had no idea at all, thanks for voting up :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Hey Faith Reaper!Don't get me wrong!I've no attention or alterior motives to laugh at you.I just tried to say that Easter Service should be taken off from all Churches and tostop thinking it s part of religion or it has any connection with Jesus peace be upon him 's Teachings.It's good to give kids chocolate bunnies and eggs or whatever but don't say it should be celebrated as religious feast.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@kittythedreamer no I had no idea, my hubs never get this many comments. The ones about religion get more, but none like this. Thanks for voting up again :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Michele and Faith Reaper@ I suggest for you to watch documentary film,"Banned from the Bible"on the History Channel or you can go to any major university and ask any theology professor and he should be able to assist you better.

in regards to the New Testament,there are 24,000 epistles (letters)found so far that were written about Jesus. Constantine,which came around year 325 decided to chose the current 30+ books and gospels of the"Cannon" or New Testament.But before that, many books or epistles were believed to be inspired,including this banned Apocalypse. In fact, this apocalypse was "very popular" and was widely believed that it was "SPIRITUALLY INSPIRED TO SAINT PETER".

The point is,Contantine's decision along with his church is irrelevant here. The 30+ current books of the Bible are corrupted and were written by men. They were chosen from 24,000 epistles, and the 30+ books do contain contradictions in them regarding Jesus' divinity and identity.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@Vagas Elias there is also so much that is hidden in the Vatican, that is something that I really wish we could have access to.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ sunkentreasure how many prohecies did Jesus Christ fulfill?

I heard it was over 100


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I did see that on the History Channel. Which is why I wrote what is hidden in the Vatican. I want to know what is hidden in the Vaticann.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

what s that Michele?you got me confused?those r my words hehe


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@revengedown no I keep forgetting to put the@ before what I write. I also know that many things were not allowed to be put in the bible. The council decided what to put in the bible and what not to put in the bible. Now, I want to know that they did not put in the bible.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was foretold in the Old Scriptures (that exist in the Bible and elsewhere): and They are afriad to declare that the Bible is distorted


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Where does it say in the Qu'ran or in the old scriptures that the bible is distorted?


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Hey revengadown, oh no, I did not say anything of that sort, about it being a religious feast - no way, are you kidding me! I'm not about "religion" at all, just a Christian. Thanks for the comments though. Peace. In His Love, Faith Reaper


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

To Michele!In the Qur'an,it says,“And remember Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O children of Israel! I am the Apostle of God sent to you confirming the Torah(O.T),which came before me,and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said: this is evident sorcery.”(Qur'an 61:6)the name Ahmad and Mohammed come from the same Arabic root and in essence are the same name.

nn the basis of this particular verse in the Qur'an,It is obvious that Prophet Jesus,may peace and blessings be upon him,did actually foretell the advent of a prophet to come after him and actually even gave his name.This is confirmed further in one of the hadiths (sayings/ traditions of Prophet Mohammed); when asked about his birth he said,“I am the answer of the supplication of my father, Abraham, and the glad tidings given by Jesus.” (Authentic Hadith narrated in Musnad Ahmad by Al-Albany 1545, which is one of the main references for hadiths.

One of the most important of the prophecies in the New Testament appears in the writings of John.Prophet Jesus, may peace and blessings be upon him,speaks of the Paraclete that will come after him.In Greek,it’s Periklytos. This word has been translated, in the Gospel of John,to the‘Comforter’in the King James Version,the ‘Advocate’ in the Epistle, and the‘Counselor’ by others.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Michele - Yes, He is risen! I have no doubt about the Vatican and many things being hidden for sure. In His Love, Faith Reaper


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ revegadown I have the old KJV so please tell me what chapter and what verse you are writing about.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Yes Faith Reaper the important thing is he did allow Himself to be crucified for our sins then he rose from the dead. And now because of what He did for us we can live!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Hey,Faith Reaper!I wasn't refering to you when I said 'TO STOP THINKING IT S PART OF RELIGION' but to Churches to canceal the Easter Celebrations as a way to revive and resuscitate the Real Teachings of Jesus.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Ok,Michele Look at the following verses:

John 14:16"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 15:26"But when the Comforter is come,whom I will send unto you from the Father,the Spirit of truth,which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 14:26"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth;It is expedient for you that I go away:for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;but if I depart,I will send him unto you.And when he is come,he will reprove the world of sin,and of righteousness,and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;Of righteousness, because I go to my Father,and ye see me no more;Of judgment,because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear, shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me:for he shall receive of mine,and shall shew [it] unto you."


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Revengadown, thanks for that clarification. In His Love, Faith Reaper


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Faith Reaper,you are always wellcome :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ok, revengadown, what about John 17:1-14 Just part of it says "Of righteousness, because I go to my Father" Jesus goes to His Father. You wrote that!!! So Jesus is the Son of God!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

To Michele!

In the light of verses I put above,we are told that once Jesus (peace be upon him)departs,a Paraclete will come.He will glorify Jesus (peace be upon him),and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost and in original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma."The word pneuma (pnyoo'-mah)is the Greek root word for "spirit."thereis no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts,of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today.The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text.However,a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit" and now it is written in the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV),


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 4 years ago from West Allis

John 3:16 - He is the only Begotten Son.

1John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins.

1John 2:22 - He is antichrist who denies the Father and Son.

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things hoped and evidenced by things not seen.

Accepting that the Son came to forgive sin and save the world is not something of reason and knowledge but faith. And the only foundation for faith is hope. Peace


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

A M Werner you are exactly correct. I have read many of your hubs you know more then anyone on hubpages that I have ever seen the writings of.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

To A M Werner - Thank you, thank you, and yes, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE FAITH! In His Love, Faith Reaper


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ revenadownThe comforter is nothing more then kum'-fer-ter: This is translation of the word patakletos, in the Johannine writings. In the Gospel it occurs in Jn 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7, and literally, "called to one's side" for help. The translation "Comforter" covers only a small part of the meaning as shown in the context. The word "Helper" would be a more adequate translation.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

To Michele I extracted the verses from the Bible that you asked me.I didn't say I believe in that.You gave me a job and I did it,didn't I ?:)Well,you seem you didn't pay much attention to what I stated before in one of my previous comments when I talked about The real and accurate meaning of the word Son in Hebrew muniscript.The translators of Bible weren't lucky in choosing the accurate words and plus They convey only their own personal understanding of the text.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ revengadown yes that is true. Please forgive me for that. However comforter is true. And once again, I will ( forgive me for repeating myself) I wish to know what is in the Vatican. I am not a regular Christian. I do not believe in the Trinity. Christmas did not happen in December because men were out tending their sheep at night. Celebrating it well I am not sure. I do celebrate it, but Jesus was alive before He was born. I do believe in thanking God for Jesus and Jesus for His choice of allowing himself crucifixion, and thanking God, when Jesus rose from the dead. But not by looking for Easter eggs. There are a few more hubs I wrote that make me a Christian that is different from most. I think God loves all his children. Not just Christians. Ok, here is where I get a lot of flack. God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, I believe to be The same God. There is only one God. Many of us have different names, but there is only one God. There is a lot I do not know, that is true. But, there are things I do believe. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. He forgives our sins. I cannot explain everything. I do not think everybody is going to hell. I believe in Revelation. I have written a few hubs about the New World Order, Illuminati,things like that. But there is no way you can prove Jesus is not the Son of God. No way at all


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

well,a "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore,Jesus hadpredicted the coming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit.Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26:

'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

and look here,we have an other kind of issue,In NIV,they drop "IT":

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

And let s move to an other thing,read 1 John 4:1-3 below:

Beloved, believe not every SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world( the word HOLY is dropped here)

WHAT S THIS?WHAT KIND OF THE GAME IS THIS?Can you give me any expanation???


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

uhmm MICHELE I guess You are dragging me to other hubs to get much attention lol Don't worry I will asap now gotta go sry have nice day:)


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Hey anyone - Help! I just posted a Hub, and then went to preview it, and it was ready to be published, but it just went away? Hmmm, so I went to just start typing it again, and it said that hub website was already taken. Did I accidentally post my new poem hub on someone's hub? Sorry, I am new to this, and I hope I didn't make a bad mistake. Sorry to get off topic. I would appreciate any feedback to my problem, as I do not see my new poem on my profile? Also, I didn't know where to ask my question. FAITH REAPER


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Sorry, all is good, I found it somewhere and just clicked edit, and then clicked publish this time? Sorry for the interruption. Green Faith Reaper


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ok, which bible has the word "holy" in it.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ revebgadown No, I really want to know which bible you are refering to. Ok hope you have a good day :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ Faith Reaper, what it it's name?


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Michele, it is "O' Blue Skies of Childhood." It is now on my profile, so who knows what I did or didn't do to begin with. Thanks, Faith Reaper


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele ,I didn't imply that it is in other Bibles but it should be ther though.We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit."Muslims believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost.In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done its utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas,"and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery .For this reason,it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (peace be upon him).


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@Revengadown I would like to see The Gospel of Barnabas, and would like to read it very much. Give me a little time please to see how much I can find out about it.


2besure profile image

2besure 4 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

There is so much we do as Christians that come from pagan customs. You don't realized it, until someone breaks it down like this. Some Christians will fight you if you tell them they are wrong! It have to be willing to let go of traditions if we are to practice Christian purely.


sunkentreasure profile image

sunkentreasure 4 years ago

THANK YOU JESUS By BERNARD LEVINE

There's no other friend

so true and so faithful

There's no other love

so precious, so dear

There's no other joy

so rich and fulfilling

There's no other grace

so kind and so rare

There's no other one

who has done

more for the world

than Jesus.

© Bernard Levine

*** Jesus has fulfilled more than 300 prophecies...what a privilege it is for us to love Him.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@ Michele ,This Gospel is interesting because it supports Islam in almost everything as it says that Jesus did not die in the cross and also it mentions the prophet's name Muhamed"peace be upon him".some christians say that it is a MUSLIM FORGERY but it also contradicts some Quranic concepts,such as calling Prophet Muhammad as the Messiah, no muslim would write anything which is different from Islam.It contains some historical errors but it s interesting to know how this Gosple reaches us.

well,I read in a forum that Christian scholar of history confirm that after the famous council of Nicea (325 C.E.), the church of St. Paul (The Trinitarian Church) selected out of the over three hundred Gospels in their possession the four that most closely conformed to their doctrines. All others, including the Gospel of Barnabas, were ordered completely destroyed. They also ruled that all Gospels written in Hebrew were to be destroyed. This practice continued until at least the year 1616 C.E.

Well then, how did the Gospel of Barnabas reach us? It is well known and recorded that the Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as Canonical in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 C.E. Pope Damasus (304-384 C.E.) issued a decree that the Gospel of Barnabas should not be read. This decree was supported by Gelasus, Bishop of Caesaria who died in 395 C.E. Pope Demasus, however, did secure a personal copy of the Gospel of Barnabas for himself in 383 C.E. and placed it in his private library. Many decrees make mention of the Gospel of Barnabas, such as the decree of the Western churches in 382AD, Pope Innocent in 465C.E., the Glasian Decree of 496C.E., Pope Hormisdas, and it is mentioned in the Stichometry of Niceophorus. There are many others who made note of this Gospel throughout history or obtained their own copies.

In 478AD, the fourth year of Emperor Zeno, the remains of Barnabas were discovered and there was found on his breast a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas written by his own hand. (Acia Sanctorum Borland Junii Tom II, pages 422 and 450. Antwerp 1698) The famous Vulgate Bible appears to have been based upon this Gospel. Among the early Christians was a man named Irenaeus (130-200 AD). According to the book "Jesus, Prophet of Islam," by Muhammad Ata’ Ur Rahim, Irenaeus quoted extensively in his writings from the Gospel of Barnabas. In the sixteenth century C.E. a close friend of Pope Sextus (1589-1590) called Fra Marino, became extremely interested in the writings of Irenaeus. One day he was invited to visit the Pope and lunch with him. After eating with him, the Pope became drowsy and fell asleep. Father Marino took to browsing through the various books and manuscripts in the private library of Pope Sextus and happened upon an Italian translation of the Gospel of Barnabas. Father Marino concealed it in his sleeve and left the Vatican with it. This Gospel passed through many hands until it reached the hands of "a person of great name and authority" in Amsterdam "who during his lifetime, was often heard to put a high value on this piece." After his death, it came into the possession of J.E. Cramer, Councilor of the King of Prussia. In 1713, Cramer presented this Gospel to the famous connoisseur of books, Prince Eugene of Savoy. In 1738, the library of the Prince, including this Gospel was incorporated into the Hofbibliothek in Vienna where it now rests.

Only the popularity of this copy of the Gospel of Barnabas saved it from the fate of most other copies. Most copies of the Gospel of Barnabas had a tendency of mysteriously disappearing into oblivion. This was the case with a Spanish copy which mysteriously disappeared from the College Library in England around the same time period. The Gospel of Barnabas was translated into English by Mr. and Mrs. Ragg and published in the Clarindon Press in Oxford in 1907. Dispite the fact that the authors disallowed the authenticity of this Gospel, still, mysteriously all copies disappeared from the market. Only two copies are known to have escaped this mysterious fate. One copy is housed in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. The other is located in the British museum. A new printing has been made off of these copies and this printing is available today. Many attempts have been made since the Gospel of Barnabas was first inadvertently smuggled out of the Vatican vaults and unveiled to the public to disprove it’s authenticity. This Gospel was found to support the Muslim Qur’an so strongly that it was quickly said that Father Marino must have stumbled upon a fabricated Gospel written by Muslims which Muslims had later managed to cleverly conceal in the Christian Vatican.( which might be impossible) Much has been written on this topic, however, for those who would like to see strong evidence of the great antiquity and authenticity of this Gospel, they are directed to obtain a copy of the book "The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gospel of Barnabas, and The New Testament", by M. A. Yussuff. YOU CAN CHECK THIS WEBSITE TO READ THE GOSPLE: http://www.barnabas.net/


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@2bsure thank you for your comment it is very good. We do need to practice Christianity purely. Because until we do, we are not truly practicing Christianity. And we need to do so, because that is what God told us to do when he gave this commandment to Moses " Thou shall have no other gods before me" Thank you very much again for your comment!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@sunkentreasure Thank you for giving me the answer to the number of prophecies and more that Jesus has fulfilled.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@ Sunkentreasure,AS you mentioned the JESUS peace be upon him prophecies here,I would like to give me some information about the LOST TRIBES OF ISREAL?WHO AND WHERE ARE THEY NOW?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@revengadown thanks for the website, I did google it last night but kept getting sites with different opinions. Some wrote it was true, some not, some had different articles of Barnabas. I will home only in and out today, but ( as you probably know) I need to know the truth. So, I am going to look at the website and am going to keep looking.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,MATHEW 7:7:'Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.'you can download an other interesting book ,the link s below :

http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/abdulhaqvid...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@revengadown thank you again. lol, as you know I need to know the truth.


mikeydcarroll67 4 years ago

I knew some of the information that you've presented here, and other things I didn't know where they came from. I am glad I came across this post!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Hung in there despite pressure to resign Michele :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@mikeydcarroll67 thank you for your comment. I am also happy you came and read this information.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@revengadown. Sorry for not responding. Have been gone all day today. Have not been able to read anything at all, about any of the information you have given to me. I am very sorry about that, because I can't even argue about anything yet. And as you know, it does take a lot for me to resign :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

0Michele don't worry, I have been gone too lol I had to go to work and then spend some time with my friends hey don't resign :) the light is at the end of the tunnle hehe


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Light is better then darkness. And no, I won't resign. Probably won't much done to anything today. But, will try to do more tomorrow. If you think I will resign you are wrong. ha ha ha


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

No hhehe I know you are as stuborn as a mule lol


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

True, but so are you.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Lol I don't give in easily hehe


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

You put me on the top page of the hubs!! Thanks! By the way, I don't give up very quickly. You already know that:)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I found this Barnabas 7:3

But moreover when crucified He had vinegar and gall given Him to

drink. Hear how on this matter the priests of the temple have

revealed. Seeing that there is a commandment in scripture,

Whatsoever shall not observe the fast shall surely die, the Lord

commanded, because He was in His own person about to offer the vessel

of His Spirit a sacrifice for our sins, that the type also which was

given in Isaac who was offered upon the alter should be fulfilled.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I did some research and found out a lot about Barnabas

1. Was Barnabas really its author?

This book professes to be a Gospel and alleges that its author was the Apostle Barnabas. We must therefore begin by enquiring who the man Barnabas really was and at the same time must decide whether he is the author of the book we are considering in this booklet. To do this we must make some comparisons between the knowledge that we have of the real Apostle Barnabas in the Bible and the professed author of the Gospel of Barnabas. At the beginning and end of this book two comments appear which immediately assist us in our quest. They are these:

Many, being deceived of Satan, under pretence of piety, are preaching most impious doctrine, calling Jesus son of God, repudiating the circumcision ordained of God for ever, and permitting every unclean meat: among whom Paul also hath been deceived. (The Gospel of Barnabas, p.2).

Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. (The Gospel of Barnabas, p.273).

The author of this book uses strong language to denounce the teaching of Paul in particular, especially regarding circumcision; the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus; and the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God. The whole book abounds in discourses levelled against those things which the author particularly takes Paul to task for, and there can be no doubt that the author of this book is poles apart from Paul and his doctrine and is diametrically opposed to his preaching and teaching.

This is the first of many evidences against the authenticity of this book for whoever wrote it expediently appended the name "Barnabas" to it as its author, whereas only a brief reflection on the actual profile of the real Apostle Barnabas will show that he cannot possibly be the author of this book.

Let us briefly go through the history of Barnabas in the Bible. He only appears among the apostles after the ascension of Jesus to heaven when the early Christian Church was taking root in the land of Palestine. As a gesture of faith and love towards his brethren, he sold a field he owned and gave the proceeds to the apostles for distribution at their discretion to those who were in need among the brethren. This gesture of kindness was a great source of encouragement to the believers and the apostles accordingly named him "Bar-nabas", which means "Son of encouragement". Before this he had been known only by his common name Joseph (Acts 4.36).

Here the author of the Gospel of Barnabas makes his first serious blunder for he suggests throughout his book, not only that Barnabas was actually one of the twelve disciples of Jesus during his ministry on earth, but also that he was known by this name "Barnabas" throughout that period of ministry. On more than one occasion in the book we find that Jesus allegedly addressed him by name and the first occasion, which comes particularly early in the book, is this one:

Jesus answered: 'Be not sore grieved, Barnabas; for those whom God hath chosen before the creation of the world shall not perish' (The Gospel of Barnabas, p.21).

Now we have here a patent anachronism which destroys the possibility that this book was really written by the Apostle Barnabas. The apostles only gave him the name "Barnabas" (Son of encouragement) after the ascension of Jesus because of the generous act he had done which had heartened the spirits of the early Christians. But the Gospel of Barnabas makes Jesus call him by this name some three years before he ascended to heaven. This is a serious - in our view fatal - objection to the claim that this book was written by the Apostle Barnabas.

As we press on in our study of the life of Barnabas, however, we find further proofs that destroy the claim that this book was really written by him. The next time he appears in the early events of the Church was on the occasion of Paul's first visit to all the apostles in Jerusalem. Because the apostles knew that Paul had in previous years been a relentless persecutor of the early Christians (primarily because they believed that Jesus was the Son of God!), the apostles and other Christians in Jerusalem doubted whether he really was now converted to their faith. It is indeed a revelation to discover, in the light of the vehement attacks made on Paul in the Gospel of Barnabas, just who it was who went to great pains to assure the brethren in Jerusalem that Paul was really a disciple:

But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. Acts 9.27

We are now confronted with a second serious chain of evidence against the suggestion that Barnabas was the author of the "Gospel" attributed to him. Only seven verses earlier we read that when Paul engaged in public preaching in the synagogue of Damascus, "immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, 'He is the Son of God'." (Acts 9.20). When this same Paul came to Jerusalem, it was Barnabas who vigorously defended him as a true disciple of Jesus.

What a contrast we have here with the book we are considering where the author, supposedly Barnabas, takes Paul to task for the very fact that he was proclaiming that Jesus was the Son of God. The true Barnabas was the right-hand man of this very Paul who publicly taught that Jesus was indeed the Son of God. It is this same Barnabas who represented him at Jerusalem and who spared no effort in persuading the disciples there that Paul really was a disciple of Jesus.

Later on in this booklet we shall show that the Gospel of Barnabas was first written not earlier than fourteen centuries after Christ and that the author, whoever he was, simply chose to make Barnabas the alleged author of his obnoxious forgery. The men we referred to earlier, who have made much in-depth study into the origins and sources of the Gospel of Barnabas, have also tried to ascertain why the real author of this book chose to make Barnabas its supposed author. One or two plausible theories have been suggested, but to this day we have not been able to discover why he did this.

But one thing we do know - the actual author of the Gospel of Barnabas could not have made a worse choice for the "authorship" of his book than Barnabas. He has written this book ostensibly as a defence against "Pauline Christianity" (as some put it) and yet he has, probably without serious reflection, chosen as his author the one man we always find at the side of Paul - recommending him at all times as a true disciple of Jesus and endorsing his preaching wherever he went. To put it plainly, the author of the Gospel of Barnabas has chosen as the alleged author of the book he has composed against the teaching of Paul the very man who supported that teaching more actively than anyone else during his ministry. Barnabas was the spiritual blood-brother of Paul. Our real author has, in a second awful manner, made another calamitous blunder by suggesting that the Apostle Barnabas - of all people! - was the author of the fraudulent "Gospel" he has composed.

As we go further into the life of Barnabas this fact comes out even more clearly. When the church in Jerusalem heard that the church in Antioch was growing well, the apostles decided to send Barnabas there to take over the teaching and instruction of the new believers. But Barnabas, of his own volition, decided that he could not handle this by himself, and decided to obtain the assistance of another fellow-believer well-grounded in the faith for this work. Without hesitation Barnabas went all the way to Tarsus in Asia Minor to find Paul and immediately he brought him to Antioch to assist him in the instruction of the church in the city. We read the following of their ministry:

For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians. Acts 11.26

Under the joint ministry of Paul and Barnabas, the disciples were first cal


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

That s from Epistle of Barnabas ,not from the Gosple of Barnabas,You confuse them ;)These are two very different books.CHRISTANS think it s promoted by Muslims as an original Gospel written by the man named Barnabas who was a disciple of Jesus and also they claim it was written by a Jewish man in the 1st century A.D.who travelled with Jesus(that s not true,I ve mentioned the reason why in some previous comments)while the Epistle of Barnabas (they think) is an ancient Christian book which teaches about the lordship,death and resurrection of Jesus.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

What about the Gospel of Barnabas? Who wrote it and why? Was he an apostle?

Question:

What’s this about a Gospel of Barnabas? Who wrote it and why? Was

Barnabas an apostle or not?

Answer:

The New Testament speaks of a 1st Century Jew named Joseph, a Levitical

priest from the Mediterranean island of Cyprus, who became a follower of

Jesus. He “was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith (Acts

11:24) and was nicknamed Barnabas (“son of encouragement”) by his fellow

Christians (Acts 4:36-37). The church in Jerusalem sent Barnabas to

Antioch to investigate the stories of Gentiles becoming Christians (Acts

11:19-30), and later the Holy Spirit would send Barnabas and the apostle

Paul out from Antioch on a missionary journey (Acts 13:1-3). This might

be why Barnabas seems to be called an apostle in Acts 14:14 (the word

apostle means “sent one,” from the Greek apostolos).

Over the centuries, many legends arose concerning Jesus and his apostles

and early disciples, and often their names would be attached to spurious

Christian documents. Barnabas was no exception. There was a letter

called The Epistle of Barnabas that might have been written in 2nd Century

Alexandria, but there is no known connection to the actual Barnabas in the

1st Century. A 4th Century copy of The Epistle of Barnabas was found in

1859.

Cyprus would become known as the island of St. Barnabas, and a tale of his

adventures called The Acts of Barnabas was probably written there in the

5th Century. Once again, there is no historical connection between the

real Barnabas? life in the 1st Century and these stories being written

about him hundreds of years later.

Although a false gospel called the Gospel of Barnabas is mentioned on a

late 5th Century list of forbidden books, no ancient manuscript has ever

been found. The Gospel of Barnabas we have today is based on Spanish and

Italian manuscripts that most likely date to 14th Century Spain, not the

1st Century. Some scholars believe that this gospel was forged by Muslims

(the Moors) to bridge the theological gaps between the Bible and the

Koran.

After surveying the current scholarship on The Gospel of Barnabas, former

missionary Jan Slomp concluded, “The so-called Gospel of Barnabas?is a

forgery by all definitions.”

Muslim scholar Cyril Glasse writes in the The Concise Encyclopedia of

Islam that “As regards the “Gospel of Barnabas” itself, there is no

question that it is a medieval forgery … It contains anachronisms which

can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled

comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet the “Messiah”,

which Islam does not claim for him. Besides it farcical notion of sacred

history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the

writings of Baha Allah are of the Koran.”

Researcher Samuel Green concludes: “The Gospel of Barnabas is not an

authentic Gospel of Jesus. The author does not understand the language,

history or geography of the 1st century A.D., and there is no ancient

evidence for the book. The internal evidence of the book suggests it was

written in the 14th century and there are Muslim scholars who agree with

this dating. The book is a rewrite of the Biblical Gospel most likely by a

Muslim who wanted to show that Jesus taught Islam and predicted the coming

of Muhammad. This type of rewriting has been done elsewhere by Muslims in

the Gospel According to Islam. This type of behaviour is disgraceful, and

it is disgraceful for Muslims to continue to publish, promote and

distribute this false Scripture.”

Regardless of who wrote The Gospel of Barnabas and why, there is no reason

to believe that it traces back to the real Barnabas.

Barnabas was a remarkable man of God, but the only accurate record we have

of him is Luke?s Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament, not The

Epistle of Barnabas or The Acts of Barnabas. Jesus is more than

remarkable, but the most accurate historical records we have of Him are

the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not The Gospel of Barnabas.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ok, need to be out for a while. Talk to you later :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Muslims do not seek to put down or desecrete the Holy Bible. It is a critical matter of faith for Muslims to believe in the original revelations that came down to Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, just as it is is important for Muslims to believe in the revelation of the Quran that came to Muhammad, peace be upon him. The key word here however, is "original."

The Bible and the Quran have come to us by way of Almighty God,.However, when the next step comes into play (that of the human beings faithfully transmitting it on to others and future generations) we find out that God has only preserved Quran and guaranteed its protection from any play or mischievous distortion : "Indeed, We sent down the Quran and We will guard it" (Quran 15:9), for the Quran is a proof against mankind till the Day of Judgment .The previous scriptures were meant for a limited period. Their use ended with the revelation of the Quran, which abrogated them and exposed their distortions and changes. That is why they were not protected from corruption. They underwent distortion, addition, and omission: "Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings" (Quran 4:46); "So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings" (Quran 2:79); "Say, who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to people? You put it into sheets of paper showing some of them and concealing much" (Quran 6:91); "And there is a group among them who twist their tongues with the Book, that you may think it is a part of the Book but it is not part of the Book. And they say 'It is from Allah,' yet it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah and they know it. It is not for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book, the Wisdom and the Prophet hood to say to men 'Worship me instead of Allah"' (Quran 3:79); "People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book and forgiving you of much. A light has come to you from Allah and a glorious Book, with which He will guide whoever follows His pleasure in the way of peace, and brings them forth from darkness into the light by His will" (Quran 5:15-16).

Therefor, Gosple of Barnabas isn’t authentic or the ultimate truth.It’s like any other muniscript,contains many scientific errors and absurdities .Briefly,in addition to what you “Michele”quoted above,The Gosple book claims that:

1. Muhammad, not Jesus, is the Christ (Al Maseeh), contrary to both the Bible and the Koran.

2. This book makes many scientific mistakes, for example:

A. It makes the earth larger in size than the sun.

B. It claims that the navel (umbilicus) is a result of Satan spitting on the mass of clay from which man was created!!

C. It states that Adam tried to stop himself from swallowing the forbidden fruit,and that resulted in the protrusion known as the larynx.

D. His ignorance of the land where Christ lived is very obvious. For example, he places Nazareth at the shore of the Sea of Galilee.

To finish ,we can make the following dogmatic statements: No one can believe this "gospel" and believe the Holy Bible at the same time.Furthermore,no one can believe the "Gospel of Barnabas" and believe the Koran at the same time. He who believes it, can neither be a true Muslim, nor a true Christian. No wonder then that the late distinguished professor of Islam, Dr. Abbas Mahmoud Al Aqqad, former professor at the distinguished Islamic university, Al Azhar Al Sharif, advised Muslims to stay away from this false gospel, because according to him and the facts of the case, it destroys Islam as much, if not more, than it destroys Christianity.

Why then do some Muslims refer to it as if it proves Islam and contradicts Christianity? The answer is that most Muslims who refer to it have either never read it, or never seriously studied it.”it s a tricky book :))They have been told that the Bible has been corrupted, and they are trying to find some support for that claim. So they assume that the "gospel" of Barnabas proves that accusation


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Michele,As you are not here,I was skiming thru comments but one of your questions of 'seeking the truth' :) stopped me "Jesus was only a man without sin, then was his death the reason we all can be forgiven of our sins?"I answered it but an information slippd my mind,it was taken from the Gosple of Thomas:

Jesus killed a boy by pushing him off of the root and then lying about it and blinded a man for no valid reason.

What do you think?this maybe will alter your question!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I am sorry, please forgive me, but I will not be back until tonight. My daughter is on Spring Break, and things are crazy right. I will answer that question soon, because I have heard about it. Be back asap!!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

kkkk don't worry have good time with your daughter!:)


Jesshubpages 4 years ago

Salvation is not through religion, not by morality and not by knowledge. Salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 2: 8-9. Good works then are fruits of being saved through the Lord Jesus Christ.


bookbeam 4 years ago

Why did the Greek and Roman pagans become Christian? It is a very interesting question. I don't think anyone really knows what they were thinking back in those days but it could be that the ancient Roman myths were no longer believable and people were searching for a more understanding. St. Paul, who was both Jew and Greek, said as much. He said the Jews looked for mystical signs while the Greeks wanted wisdom.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Jesshubpages,good works are the fruits of faith and the evidence of its presence and what you mentioned here is lifeless faith which is devoid of works can not save anyone acoording to your Bible"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works?can faith save him? ... The devils also believe and tremble."(James 2:14,19)there are many people who have faith in Jesus either as GOD or Son died on the cross but are still as bad as they were.They committadultry,murder,..."Now the works of the flesh are manifest,which are these; adultery,fornication, uncleanness,lasciviousness,idolatry,witchcraft,hatred,variance,emulations,wrath,strife,seditions,heresies, envyings,murders, drunkenness, revelling and such like: of the which I tell you before as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."(Galatians 5:19-21)

We Muslims believe that Good Works are the proof of the Faith you claim you have and a sign of inheriting HEAVEN

Us Muslims believe that we enter paradise by earning the grace of God through our works. But You may say that our finite actions can never measure up to please the infinite God. That logic does not work perfectly you see, because then someone could argue "well if my finite actions have no effect on God then that means that my finite evil actions do not displease the infinite God either, therefore he should not punish me".

Now of course that would be absurd.It makes sense though.Now if God put us here on earth and we are supposed to please him by actions, who sets the standards? Only God can. Us Muslims believe that if we follow the law prescribed and put forward by the infinite God, we are therefore in a way following a law whose source is from the infinite and therefore in a way meeting the standards of the infinite God to please him. We believe that any other actions performed besides those set by God are useless. Now God does not need our actions. He does not benefit from them either. However, he loves that we obey him.

You may say that we cannot follow the law perfectly. You r right. That is why us Muslims believe in a forgiving God. A lot of people have this misconception that forgiveness is contrary to justice. However, this is incorrect.

Now as I am talking about forgiveness, but God is also just. A judge can’t just forgive people. Now does the case for justice need to be fulfilled. How does God match justice with forgiveness? You believe that justice was done on the cross by the Messiah in Isaiah 53.

There are two wrongs that we can do, one is wronging human beings and the other is wronging God. If we wrong God, it is simply within God’s prerogative to simply forgive us and let us go. If we wrong other human beings, then God could forgive us by recompensing that other person for his or her loss or we recompense them our selves so justice is fulfilled and our forgiveness is guaranteed. Now do human judges have authority to forgive? Yes they do, as you can see if someone had a parking ticket and appropriate excuse, like he was in a hurry etc. he would be forgiven. It is true that judges do not have ultimate authority to forgive because they have authority above them, they have to answer to the state, to the people, and so they have to make it appear that justice is being done. On the other hand, God is not comparable to this human judge in this sense because God is the ultimate authority and no one can question him. Now your solution doesn’t work, because if you say that God took the place of us in the courtroom that means that he becomes the criminal and who is there to condemn God. If God himself is the criminal then who is the judge?

I heard some Christains say that Us Muslims are not sure if we are going to heaven or not but themselves are. The thing is, us Muslims believe that if we live up to the standards that God wishes us to live up to. Meaning, if we truly try our best to keep ourselves within God's law (and God knows our intentions) then yes we believe that we are going to heaven. The reason why Muslims say they are not sure is for two reasons

1st reason:

We are not sure if we are going to become corrupt people later on in the future and stop practicing our religion properly. We do not know the future.

This same concept is found in Christianity

1 Corinthians 15:2

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Notice the condition that Paul puts. He says, IF. Meaning it is possible for some one to leave the belief. How many people claimed to be Christians and now have left Christianity? How do you know you wont be one of them? You do not know the future.

Similarly, Muslims believe that we are going to heaven IF we stick firmly to the teachings of Islam and adhere to the laws set by God.

2nd reason:

Us Muslims find it too arrogant to come and say "we are saved, we are going to heaven". Us Muslims are humble people. We say "inshallah (by God's will) we are going to heaven"

For Jesus Christ says in

Luke 18:14

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

So Muslims try their very best to follow the law of God and pray that God showers his mercy on them in order for us to enter heaven. This is the teachings of the Old Testament as well. No one has to die for our sins, we are all responsible for our selves (Deuteronomy 24:16). All God wants is for us to try our best to be righteous and when we fail we ask for his forgiveness. No one is to be sacrificed for us. (Hosea 6:6, Jeremiah 7:31, Ezekiel 18:21,22,24, Isaiah 66:3, Psalms 51:16-19, Matthew 6:9-15)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Bookbeam,have you ever thought of this question WHAT HAPPENED TO MAKE CHRISTAINS BECOME PAGANS? or in other word WHAT HAPPENED TO MAKE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM BECOME FOLLOWERS OF PAUL?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@revengadown I am back. It has been a long day. Ok, I have read it is true, Jesus pushed another child off a roof, but went down and resurrected him. He also, created doves out of clay, but that was on Saturday so people were angry with him.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,that s an other story.I mean this one below which shows Him as man like us with sins and mistakes and not that competent or with supernatural qualities to carry the burden of our sins:

I Thomas, an Israelite, write you this account, that all the brethren from among the heathen may know the miracles of our Lord Jesus Christ in His infancy, which He did after His birth in our country. The beginning of it is as follows:—

2. This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. And there were also many other children playing with Him. And a certain Jew, seeing what Jesus was doing, playing on the Sabbath, went off immediately, and said to his father Joseph: Behold, your son is at the stream, and has taken clay, and made of it twelve birds, and has profaned the Sabbath. And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Why do you do on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.

3. And the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a willow branch, and let out the waters which Jesus had collected. And Jesus, seeing what was done, was angry, and said to him: O wicked, impious, and foolish! What harm did the pools and the waters do to you? Behold, even now you shall be dried up like a tree, and you shall not bring forth either leaves, or root, or fruit. And straightway that boy was quite dried up. And Jesus departed, and went to Joseph's house. But the parents of the boy that had been dried up took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and reproached him because, said they, you have such a child doing such things.

4. After that He was again passing through the village; and a boy ran up against Him, and struck His shoulder. And Jesus was angry, and said to him: You shall not go back the way you came. And immediately he fell down dead. And some who saw what had taken place, said: Whence was this child begotten, that every word of his is certainly accomplished? And the parents of the dead boy went away to Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Since you have such a child, it is impossible for you to live with us in the village; or else teach him to bless, and not to curse: for he is killing our children.

5. And Joseph called the child apart, and admonished Him, saying: Why do you do such things, and these people suffer, and hate us, and persecute us? And Jesus said: I know that these words of yours are not your own; nevertheless for your sake I will be silent; but they shall bear their punishment. And straightway those that accused Him were struck blind. And those who saw it were much afraid and in great perplexity, and said about Him: Every word which he spoke, whether good or bad, was an act, and became a wonder. And when they saw that Jesus had done such a thing, Joseph rose and took hold of His ear, and pulled it hard. And the child was very angry, and said to him: It is enough for you to seek, and not to find; and most certainly you have not done wisely. Do you not know that I am yours? Do not trouble me."The Infancy Gospel of Thomas"

Thus,the idea that He is sinless that s why He sacrifaced for us is pointless according to this information


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Ok, but what about some of the verses in the Qu'ran that tells people to be violent?

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad (Arabic).

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 4 years ago from southern USA

Jesshugpages - Thanks for the comments you posted six days ago. Jess - Stand firm, as you have been dipped in the blood. It is the blood of Jesus that washes away sin. It is the blood that is so powerful. He is risen indeed!!! In His Love, Faith Reaper


X-Con profile image

X-Con 4 years ago from The Free World!

Intersting insight on the origins of supposed "Christian" holidays (like Christmas and Easter).


soa 4 years ago

Can I just say that the assumption this article makes at the start is wrong? Pagans converted to Christianity right from the start. The chaps at Antioch were not all Jews.

By the time Constatine came into power, the Church was a very sizeable part of the Roman Empire. Probably should not speak ill of dead peope but it might have been a clever political move on Constatine's part to ally himself to the Church.

Why the church increased is simply because it became fashionable to be a Christian,to be identified with the state-sponsored religion, as it used to be in many Western countries with the resultant effect of weak, ineffectual Christianity.


soa 4 years ago

@revengadown

Just a quick question mate.

When did this idea of the Bible not being historically accurate and original copies being lost come from?

You know the Bible is the best attested book as to lack of errors in the world-nothing comes close. You know there are copies not just in Aramic but in Syrian, Greek and other languages from 130AD to hundreds and thousands of years later that agree to amazing level of detail with one another.

You know that it would have been the easiest thing in the world for people then to see that things were been falsified because they had their own copies and there would have been an almighty brouhaha.

You know atheists today would have a field day if they could show that the Bible has been altered since it was first written.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Faith Reaper I appreciate it very much


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Actually, I do think 'Easter' is important because Jesus rose from the dead, but we should show thanks to God. Instead we chase bunnies. That is wrong. We should pray, and thank God.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@soa thank you for your comment. That could be very true. One of the reasons I make hubs, is to ask questions. You and revegadown are the only people on this hub who have told me other things. I do appreciate that very much. There is a lot of things I need to learn, which (once again) is why I make hubs.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ soa please forgive me, I am not trying to attract you to another hub so just answer my question on this one. Why are there so many things hidden in the Vatican?


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown you ask what made followers of Jesus become followers of Paul (and in an obvious attempt to insult, call them pagans.) The answer is that Paul claimed to have an experience with a risen Jesus and he established churches in Asia Minor and Greece. He wrote letters to those communities that have survived. You can read them.

Paul is a searching mind. He is caring for those communities and finding the meaning in his own experience. He tells us that god is a person that has a relationship with man. That, unlike the Muslim god, who is said to be unbound by anything - even reason - god is, on the contrary, truth. God is constrained by reason. Unlike what is said by, notably Muslims, the god described by Paul cannot dissemble or lie. Paul tells us that god has a nature that can be understood - that among those attributes, God loves man and and desires to be loved by man. God did not create man to be a slave or a suicide bomber, but rather, created free minds with free will. That's what Paul said to people and I surmise that it was attractive to the ancient Romans and Jews of that era - as it is perhaps attractive to you?


getwellsoon profile image

getwellsoon 4 years ago from US

Good thoughts on why we celebrate religious ideas at certain times of the year and why we think have certain beliefs and where they originated from. There are many more for sure but you bring up perfect examples.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you getwellsoon, I appreciate your comment very much


soa 4 years ago

@ Michele

Hi there.

I must confess I do not know what is hidden in the Vatican. If you ever meet the Pope or senior cardinals, that would be a nice opening question!

Can I just say one or two things-I hope you won't mind.

(i) Why do you think/want to know what is hidden?

(ii) What do you think is hidden?

(iii) How would discovering something affect what you believe?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hi soa, I have no idea what is hidden in the Vatican, but I do want to learn or understand what is there . Many things. Like the how the universe started, or how many stars are in the sky. How discovering something effect what I believe? That depends upon what I am believing in.


fjohn profile image

fjohn 4 years ago from india

hi could you please tell me? will i get any benefit if i add your link in my hub?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I don't know, I don't know enough about hubpages to tell you the answer. But, you can if you want to.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Oh, why don't you check the learning center?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michel,bear with me.soon,I ll post something here in attempt to answer your previous questions


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you revengadown, I have been missing you.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

to answer you took me almost 3 days,now I m done,i ll post it now


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Many Times Christians post passages from the Quran on war and say that Islam is not valid because of them because of the violence. Christians say Muhammad cannot be a prophet because he fought in wars and killed

people, they say Jesus never killed anyone nor harmed any one, and that their God is loving and not a killer. Are these comments true? The simple answer is no, in this comment I will try to answer You from the main source you took those verses and to give You the real interpretation and background on “war verses” and I will quote several verses from the Bible showing the brutal terror,pedophil,x-rayed pornography and scientific absurdities found in it,besides to some evidences which shows who is real “a bomb suicider” as reply to BookBeam.It s a long tiring research and that s what I took me long to get back here.

As a starting ,I should clarify something you both that the entire Quran, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings.

At the time the Quran was revealed (7th century A.D.), there was no United Nations or Amnesty International to keep the peace or expose injustice. Inter-tribal violence and vengeance was commonplace. As a matter of survival, one must have been willing to defend against aggression from all sides. Nevertheless, the Quran repeatedly urges forgiveness and restraint, and warns believers not to "transgress" or become "oppressors." Some examples:

‘If anyone slays a person -unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -It would be as if he slew all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people’. Quran 5:32

‘Invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching.And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious...And if you punish,let your punishment be proportional to the wrong that has been done to you.But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.Be patient, for your patience is from God.And do not grieve over them,or distress yourself because of their plots.For God is with those who restrain themselves,and those who do good.’

Quran 16:125-128

“Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! .The Noble Quran, 10:99"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). The Noble Quran, 24:54"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

The above Verses refute the myth of Islam is eager for shedding blood of Non-Believers and of forcible conversion to Islam.There is no obligation or compulsion in the Religion. Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam, says:

Although in the early years of the expansion of the Islamic state much land came under the rule of the Muslims, conversion to Islam of its inhabitants took several generations. This is because conversion by force is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things. (Surah 2 Verse 256)

In more recent times such as in the case of Indonesia, conversions to Islam happened in the absence of an Islamic state and where the rulers were Dutch Christians. Commentators and historians have to acknowledge the fact of Islam's peaceful spread even if they dislike it. A classic example of such a grudging acknowledgment is in the book "The Legacy of Islam" edited by Joseph Schacht with C.E. Bosworth (1974) p145:

"... the general picture of the spread of Islam so far as we know it. This is often said to resemble an oil stain: gradual yet effective. Many, too, have praised its peaceful nature. Again so far as we know, the acceptance of Islamic doctrine has been a gradual process, partly thanks to the practice of conversion prior to indoctrination"

Most of the Christian missionaries started depicting Islam as a regressive, vulgar religion of savage people which was spread by the sword.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Yet, an unbiased Western Christian writer has written:

“…We may feel certain that if Western Christians, instead of the Saracens and the Turks, had won the dominion over Asia, there would be today not a trace left of the Greek Church, and that they would never have tolerated Muhammadanism as the 'infidels' have tolerated Christianity there. We (Christians) enjoy the fine advantage of being far better versed than others in the art of killing, bombarding and exterminating the Human Race." (Bayle P., Dictionary, 'the article Mahomed', 1850.)

If any religion was spread by the sword, it was Christianity. Catholicism was literally forced by sword on all of Europe with the exception of Ireland.When the Catholics went into South America, they just continued the sword policy with the Conquistadors.As new places were found in the Pacific, they did it again unlike Muslims who ruled Spain for about 800 years.They never used the

sword to force the people to convert.Later the Christian Crusaders came to

Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who

could openly give the Adhan, that is the call for prayers .I have here some good examples which show the tolerance and justice of Islam.One is when Palestine was conquered. Umar Ben El Khattab, Muslim Caliph came in person to Jerusalem (637), where he signed the famous Peace Treaty. The story ran as follows:

The Caliph left Ali ibn Talib in Medina as his deputy and himself left for Jerusalem. He had only one attendant with him and only one camel to ride. Umar and the attendant rode the camel by turns. It happened to be the servant's turn to ride on the day when they were to reach Jerusalem. "Commander of the Faithful," said the attendant, "I give up my turn. It will look awkward, in the eyes of the people, if I ride and you lead the camel." "Oh no," replied Umar, "I am not going to be unjust. The honor of Islam is enough for us all."

The Patriarch had prepared himself to meet with the most powerful ruler of his time, Caliph Umar. From where he was standing, he saw a tall man walking, dressed in ordinary clothes, while holding the rope of a camel, and surrounded by Muslim generals; another person was riding on the camel. For a moment, the high priest, used to the pompous way Heraclius had carried his affairs, was confused as to who the Caliph was. Was the Caliph the man riding on the camel or the one pulling the camel? Eventually, recognizing the Caliph, he surrendered the key of the city.

Next the Caliph signed the treaty of peace. As follows:

"From the servant of Allah and the Commander of the Faithful, Umar: The inhabitants of Jerusalem are granted security of life and property. Their churches


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

and crosses shall be secure. This treaty applies to all people of the city. Their places of worship shall remain intact. These shall neither be taken over nor pulled down. People shall be quite free to follow their religion. They shall not be put to any trouble..."

The gates of the city were now opened. Umar went straight to the place of the Al Aqsa Mosque, where he said his prayers. Next he visited the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the city. He was in the church when the time for the afternoon prayer came.

"You may say your prayers in the church," said the Bishop.

"No," replied Umar, "if I do so, the Muslims may one day make this an excuse for taking over the church from you."

So he said his prayers on the steps of the church. Even then, he gave the Bishop a writing that said the steps were never to be used for congregational prayers nor was the Adhan [call to prayer] to be said there.

An other example occurred in the time of Caliph Omar Iben Abdel Aziz when he ordered Qutaybah ibn Muslim to withdraw his army from Samarkand (Uzbekistan ),in north Asia,this is the story as it ran :

Qutaybah ibn Muslim ordered the army to go to the mountain behind the town because he didn’t want the people of Samarkand to see them. The Muslims army attacked the city and the army battalions from attacked behind the mountains as if they were a hurricane as they were very strong and fast. They reached the center of Samarkand and its conquerors cheer the remembrance of Allah. The monks fled to the great temple in the mountains and hid in their homes. The people of Samarkand didn't not go out for fear of Muslims, but for Muslims, the situation was stable.

…People began to come out of their homes to fetch water and food. They used to send their young children to perform these tasks and the Muslims didn’t face them, but they helped them to transfer the food and water. The children enter their houses with happiness. This situation began to spread the feelings of trust and tranquility in their hearts..this impression rose when two persons quarreled. One of them was from the people of Samarkand, and the other was a Muslim. They went to the judge, but he judged to the man from Samarkand.The news reached the runway monks in the mountain temple, so they said if this was their judgment, then they must have a fair ruler

Here the Court began:


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revengadown 4 years ago

The priest stood up and said: Qutaybah ibn Muslim entered our country without warning the whole country, he didn't give us neither warning nor options for an invitation to Islam, tribute or war ... but he attacked us without warning ...

The judge turned to the commander Qutaybah ibn Muslim and asked "what do you say about this complaint"

Qutaiba said: "war is a trick ... this country is a great obstacle to us and all those who were like it did not resist to pay money and did not like to enter Islam, and if we fought them, they would kill from us more than we kill from them"...

And by the help of Allah and surprise we defended Muslims from great harm and the history witnesses on that... and all country behind them became so easy ... Yes we surprised them but rescued and let they know about Islam.

The judge said: "Qutaybah! Did you invite them to Islam, tribute or war??

Qutaybah said" no, we surprised them for what I told you before".

The judge said: "Qutaybah you confessed and by that the court ended"

"Qutaybah, Allah supports this nation only by religion... and by avoiding treachery, and setting up justice. we were out of our homes but for a fight (jihad) for Allah's sake ... we didn’t go out to have land and occupy the country unjustly "...

Then the judge issued the ruling: "I rule out that the armies of all Muslims of this country should get out of this country and give it to its people and give them the opportunity to prepare for the fight, and then make them choose among Islam, tribute or war. If they choose the war then we will fight… and Muslims will get out of Samarkand without any thing as they entered (i.e., with no commercial gain) and submit the city to its people, and that is the application of the law of Almighty Allah and the Sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him".

All Muslims began to come out of the city until the judge came out in front of the priests, the priests did not believe that. The people of Samarkand look at Muslims until they all went out and the city become empty from all Muslims...

The young priests said "what they did prove that their religion is the right, "I witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger." All the priests pronounced that no god but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger and entered Islam.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

That is the story of the greatest court in the history. It made people of Samarkand satisfied with the rule of Islam and as a result, people entered Islam in crowds ... even the high priest entered Islam.

And this was another page from the pages of history of Islam, which proves in every position the justice of Islam with Muslims and non-Muslims ...

Justice is close to equality in the sense that it creates a state of equilibrium in the distribution of rights and duties, but they are not identical. Sometimes, justice is achieved through inequality, like in unequal distribution of wealth. The Prophet of Islam declared:

“There are seven categories of people whom God will shelter under His shade on the Day when there will be no shade except His. [One is] the just leader.”(Saheeh Muslim)

God spoke to His Messenger in this manner:

“O My slaves, I have forbidden injustice for Myself and forbade it also for you. So avoid being unjust to one another.” (Saheeh Muslim)

Thus, justice represents moral rectitude and fairness, since it means things should be where they belong

And in another passage:

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!...” (Quran 5:8)

Therefore, one may conclude that justice is an obligation of Islam and injustice is forbidden. The centrality of justice to the Quranic value system is displayed by the following verse:

“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people…” (Quran 57:25)

“…If you judge, judge between them with justice…” (Quran 5:42)

“We have revealed to you the scripture with the truth that you may judge between people by what God has taught you.” (Quran 4:105)

Morevere ,More than 80% non-Muslims are in India.The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. TodayAll these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the

sword. And in Indonesia and Malaysia case.The former is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world.The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Thomas Carlyle.The famous historian, in his book “Heroes and Hero worship”,

refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: “The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get

your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.”With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from

error”

[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

I will tell you it s the Sword of the Intellect.

It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

“Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Now let’s move to what happened in the time of discovering America ,especially what Columbus said when he landed on the seashore,in attempt to compare the two mentalities to see which one is awful and horrible. When Columbus arrived with his fifty men with guns out of their shealth,the Natives,naked, tawny, and full of wonder, emerged from their villages onto the island's beaches and swam out to get a closer look at the strange big boat. the Natives ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts ,thinking that they are gods which are characterized by light skin, red hair, and light eyes, was supposed to return to earth. This appearance is remarkably similar to European appearance.Columbus wrote in his log:

‘They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance.” But what they got in return:

“They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane... . They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want “

“As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts”

So,the Columbus intention here is to to capture the natives and subjugate them by any ways .What he claimed in his letter to Ferdinand and Isabella was just a lie:

"YOUR HIGHNESSES, as Catholic Christians and Princes who love the holy Christian faith, and the propagation of it, and who are enemies to the sect of Mahoma [Islam] and to all idolatries and heresies, resolved to send me, Cristóbal Colon, to the said parts of India to see the said princes ... with a view that they might be converted to our holy faith .... Thus, after having turned out all the Jews from all your kingdoms and lordships ... your Highnesses gave orders to me that with a sufficient fleet I should go to the said parts of India .... I shall forget sleep, and shall work at the business of navigation, so that the service is performed."

The frenzy for gold was the real motive that encouraged him to return back.As you may know that before he set off for the first time to America,,Columbus negotiated a business contract with King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain, entitling him to 10% of all profits.Besides,when he arrived,he said in his journal that he gave them hawk s bells and glass beads not in return the favor of the gifts they were given at the arrival as friendly sign but to fill them up with gold dust and to do that,he enslaved them and ordered them to do so. If they could not or did not, both their hands were cutt off by a Spanish soldier with a sword and if they escaped ,they were hunted down with the hounds or slain either by the hands of their captors or their own hands or died of disease or starvation in the mountains. Many parents killed their infants to spare them a living death under Spanish rule:

“Thus husbands and wives were together only once every eight or ten months and when they met they were so exhausted and depressed on both sides ... they ceased to procreate. As for the newly born, they died early because their mothers, overworked and famished, had no milk to nurse them, and for this reason, while I was in Cuba, 7000 children died in three months. Some mothers even drowned their babies from sheer desperation.... in this way, husbands died in the mines, wives died at work, and children died from lack of milk . .. and in a short time this land which was so great, so powerful and fertile ... was depopulated. ... My eyes have seen these acts so foreign to human nature, and now I tremble as I write. ...” taken from History is a Weapon.

In only two years -as some books states-half the 250,000 Indians on the island were dead… it was the beginning of genocide for the native population:

‘ he (Columbus)arrived on Hispaniola in 1508, Las Casas says, "there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines.


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revengadown 4 years ago

Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it...."

taken from History is a Weapon.

By 1548…not 500 Indians remained in Hispaniola. And finally today people deny that Columbus is guilty of Genocide. Saying that he was a great man who discovered the new world and neglect to say that he was also the starter of genocide against the whole Native American people.

To add more fuel to the fire.I would like you to read this and make comparison between Omar iben khattab when he entered Jerusalem and Conquistadors like Pedro de Alvarado when he entered the sacred patio of the main temple in Tenochtitlan.That day was a feast,they didn’t respect the rituals of the fiesta .This is how the Spaniards entered the sacred patio:

They ran in among the dancers, forcing their way to the place where the drums were played. They attacked the man who was drumming and cut off his arms. Then they cut off his head, and it rolled across the floor.

They attacked all the celebrants, stabbing them, spearing them, striking them with their swords. They attacked some of them from behind, and these fell instantly to the ground with their entrails hanging out. Others they beheaded: they cut off their heads, or split their heads to pieces.

They struck others in the shoulders, and their arms were torn from their bodies. They wounded some in the thigh and some in the calf. They slashed others in the abdomen, and their entrails all spilled to the ground. Some attempted to run away, but their intestines dragged as they ran; they seemed to tangle their feet in their own entrails. No matter how they tried to save themselves, they could find no escape.

Another passage, a masterpiece of the descriptive art of the Aztecs, shows how the Indians pictured the "stags or deer" on which the Spaniards rode. Motolinia, one of the early missionaries, wrote that the Indians "were filled with wonder to behold their horses, and the Spaniards riding on their backs." Now they present their own description, so vivid that it recalls another extraordinary picture of the horse, written in Hebrew by the author of the Book of Job. They report:

The "stags" came forward, carrying the soldiers on their backs. The soldiers were wearing cotton armor. They bore their leather shields and their iron spears in their hands, but their swords hung down from the necks of the "stags."

These animals wear little bells, they are adorned with many little bells. When the "stags" gallop, the bells make a loud clamor, ringing and reverberating.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I need a little time to reply. Can only be on and off today. As you know today for us is the day of Resurrection. I do not call it Easter. However, I will come back and reply the best I can. And as you know I will have to research for answers. I do not know enough, some say they do, but many know that I don't :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

These " stags, " these "horses," snort and bellow. They sweat a very great deal, the sweat pours from their bodies in streams. The foam from their muzzles drips onto the ground. It spins out in fat drops, like a lather of amole.

They make a loud noise when they run; they make a great din, as if stones were raining on the earth. Then the ground is pitted and scarred where they set down their hooves. It opens wherever their hooves touch it.

On the light of what we have seen above,I have two questions:who were peaceful,intolerant and broad minded in dealing with the others?Muslims or Christains? And the second one is Who gave the right for the Spaniards to rule and kill the Natives?God?Pope?Kings?the first question you can answer it by yourself after reading all that events.You have a conclusion now I guess but the second one I will do the job in behalf of you.Let’s return back to May 4,1493 when Pope Alexander VI granted official ownership of the New World to Ferdinand and Isabella. To these monarchs, the Pope declared:

"We of our own motion, and not at your solicitation, do give, concede, and assign for ever to you and your successors, all the islands, and main lands, discovered; and which may hereafter, be discovered, towards the west and south; whether they be situated towards India, or towards any other part whatsoever, and give you absolute power in them." 9 Page 22 of Southey, T. (1827). Chronological history of the West Indies (vol. 1).

This decree did not go unchallenged. Francis I of France, for example, later quipped: "The sun shines on me as well as on others. I should be very happy to see the clause in Adam's will which excluded me from my share when the world was being divided." Hanke, L. (1949). The Spanish struggle for justice in the conquest of America. Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press.

Nonetheless, the Pope's declaration ultimately had dire consequences for native inhabitants of the Americas. Beginning in 1514 Spanish conquerors adopted "the Requirement," an ultimatum in which Indians were forced to accept "the Church as the Ruler and Superior of the whole world" or face persecution. If Indians did not immediately comply, the Requirement warned them:

"We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do all the harm and damage that we can." Hanke, p. 33.

Often the Requirement was read to Indians without translation, or in some cases even from ships before crew members landed to kill Indians and take slaves. Hanke, p. 34.

Who did horrible things to humanity?who forced people by sword to believe in their ideas or beliefs?Muslims or christains?

De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” (Page 8) says:

“History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping

through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

The false allegations that Islam was spread by the sword is just part of unfounded propaganda. To which the best reply is the Qur'an itself. In particular this verse comes to mind:

“Their intention is to extinguish God's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But God will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it)”. (Surah 61

‘Oh you who believe!Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God,even against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin,and whether it be against rich or poor,for God can best protect both.Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve,and if you distort justice or decline to do justice,verily God is well acquainted with all that you do’.

Quran 4:135

“The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree),but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation,his reward is due from God,for God loves not those who do wrong.But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong done to them,against such there is no cause of blame.The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land,defying right and justice.For such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,that would truly be an affair of great resolution.”

Quran 42:40-43

“Goodness and evil are not equal.Repel evil with what is better.Then that person with whom there was hatred,may become your intimate friend!And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self restrain ,none but people of the greatest good fortune.”

Quran 41:34-35

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"


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revengadown 4 years ago

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Quran are in this context;

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

There are some specific verses, which I m going to explain, that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing "jihadism," or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Quran 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context bearing in mind that the pagan Arabs were very hostile people and only knew the sword as an answer. Many wars were imposed upon the Muslims, and thus, it is only normal and natural to find Noble Verses that deal with these specific hostile situations,using this strong word.But the Ultimate and Overall Message of the Noble Quran is PEACE and LOVE .On the contrast with Bible which should be a guidance and curb on the shedding blood :

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders and non-combatants.You may object here and say that Islam advocates killing women,children depending on a hadith:

aheeh Muslim

Book 019, Hadith Number 4321.

Chapter : Permissibility of killing women and children in the night raids, provided it is not deliberate.

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.”

Saheeh Bukhari

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 256.

Narated By As-Sab bin Jaththama : The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

Those who are not generally engaged in fighting – like women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and others who do not participate in the fighting – are not to be killed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibited this. His prohibition of the killing of women and children is clearly related by Ibn `Umar


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revengadown 4 years ago

in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3015) and Sahîh Muslim (1744).

The only exception to this is where such people participate directly in the fighting or are so intermixed with the fighters that it is impossible to separate them from those who are fighting. This exception is indicated by the hadîth of al-Sa`b b. Jathâmah. The Prophet (peace be upon him) was asked about the women and children of the polytheists who were among them and who would be injured if the enemy was attacked. He said: “They are of them.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3021) and Sahîh Muslim (1475)]

In short, non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, those who are under covenant, and those with whom we have peace cannot be attacked. As for those who are at war with us, the combatants may be fought and killed. Those who are not combatants cannot be killed or targeted for killing. The only way that they can be killed is as an unintentional consequence of fighting against the enemy combatants.

Indeed, the hadîth in question actually shows us that the general rule is not to kill non-combatants, even when they are present on the battlefield. The only exception is when the non-combatants are so mixed in with the fighters that it is impossible to fight against the combatants without the possibility of some non-combatants inadvertently being killed. This is only out of dire necessity

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)

Another contains, "…Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor an old, aged man…" [Narrated by Baghawi, through his isnad [Sharh al-Sunnah, 11/11]]

Another contains, "Do not kill a child, nor a woman, nor an old man, nor obliterate a stream, nor cut a tree…" [ Narrated by Bayhaqi,vide I`la al-Sunan, 12/31 ]

'Avoid the seven ruinous [sins] … associating partners with Allah, sorcery, unrightfully taking life which Allah has prohibited , consuming riba, consuming the property of an orphan, fleeing on the day of marching [in battle], and accusing a chaste, oblivious believing woman of adultery(Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Nasa'i, Abu Dawud)

After all this,You may object again and ask: what about the attack on the US?who is to blame?

Some Muslims say it was the only mean to strike the murderous infidels ,who deformed thousands of innocent Iraqi babies and children with depleted Nuclear bombs,in the heart of their homes and to prevent Israel from generous American aids for awhile and to make them drink from the same cup.Let s have a look at this documents from a variety of sources:

“ More than one million Iraqis have died- 567,000 of them children -as a direct consequence of economic sanctions... As many as 12% of the children surveyed in Baghdad are wasted, 28% stunted and 29% underweight." --UN FAO, December 1995.

"Surely the extermination of Jews in gas chambers is not comparable to the slow death inflicted in Iraqi children by deprivation. But from another angle the latter is even more despicable. The genocide against Jews was perpetrated in the greatest secret and without the blessing of the "civilized world". The crimes against Iraqi civilians are committed in full day-light, with the blessing of the ruling "civilized nations" and with the tacit support of the educated classes in these nations. Those who keep silent and are legally able to speak up, are morally accomplices to this crime." -- Elias Davidsson, Musician and a Palestinian Jew, 4/16/1999 posted in the open forum of www.ArabAmerican.com

“The U.S. has perverted the U.N. weapons process by using it as a tool to justify military actions, falsely so. ... The U.S. was using the inspection process as a trigger for war." -- Scott Ritter, former head of the U.N. arms inspection team in Iraq, on the NBC Today show, December 17, 1998.

Leslie Stahl: "We have heard that a half million children have died (as a result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it." -- A CBS Sixty Minutes interview between Leslie Stahl and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, on 12 May 1996.

"U.S. war planners considered Iraqi electrical plants to be high priority targets.... Destruction of electricity, nonetheless, proved devastating for the civilian population... the civilian life-support systems of air conditioning, refrigeration, and water purification were destroyed. Collateral damage had a new definition. ... Almost a third of all cruise missiles fired were aimed at electrical power." -- From The Washington Post in a page titled: Bomb Now, Die Later.

"They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there is a lot of oil out there we need." --Air force Brigadier General William Looney, head of the US Central Command's Airborne Expeditionary Force, which directs operations keeping Iraqi planes from flying


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revengadown 4 years ago

south of the 32nd parallel. (Taken from an article by Kathy Kelly in the Spring 2000 Arab-American University Graduates, AAUG, Monitor).

“the greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own country." --Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"This week, we also learned from legitimate UN sources in Iraq that the recent, wag the camel, `precision' bombing of defenseless Iraq destroyed at least thirteen schools, an important food storehouse, and the municipal water system of Baghdad's Karrada suburb, leaving 300,000 people without clean drinking water. During the 1991 Gulf War, US bombing wrecked Baghdad's water and sewage systems, creating a grave health crisis for millions of Iraqi civilians." --Eric Margolis in his column It's Time to Put Away the Big Stick 01/11/1999.

"It is becoming increasingly clear, that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into the aggressive power that the United States ultimately had to destroy." -- Ted Koppel, NightLine, ABC News 06/09/1992.

By 1998, the chemical weapons infrastructure had been completely dismantled or destroyed by UNSCOM (the UN inspections body) or by Iraq in compliance with our mandate. The biological weapons programme was gone, all the major facilities eliminated. The nuclear weapons programme was completely eliminated. The long range ballistic missile programme was completely eliminated. If I had to quantify Iraq's threat, I would say [it is] zero." -- Scott Ritter, chief UN weapons inspector in Iraq for five years, from an essay by John Pilger (The Guardian 03/04/2000).

The question which arises here is does Isreal have any connection with that?the answer is simply: YES.Let’ s have a look here:

"The Jewish lobbyists in the USA are deeply involved in the propaganda work promoting a war against Iraq." -- Ha'aretz, (Israeli Daily) 01/13/1991.

"Have I given information to Israel [about Iraqi military revealed during inspections]? Damn right I have." -- Scott Ritter, American Arms Inspector in a lecture at Brown University, Rhode Island, December 01/1998.

In summer of 1999 (around end of June-beginning of July) the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported that representatives of American Jews are trying to convince the Pope/vatican to cancel his millennium visit to Iraq! The Pope's visit will


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revengadown 4 years ago

certainly help bring world attention to the genocide the sanctions on Iraq are causing. --Sam 08/1999.

On the same day (08/26/1998) of his resignation, American arms inspector Scott Ritter was being investigated by the FBI for allegedly sharing classified information with Israel.

Acording to this information,a hubreader will protest and say Saddam.If he wasn’t dictator and enemy to usa,the harm or the plight wouldn’t plague on them.It s true that Saddam is responsible and guilty but the USA and Israel are more responsible and guiltier.Saddam in this case was just a scapegoat or a string on which to peg USA dirties.

But later with Bush H.W ,they succeeded to devastate Iraq under false pretences like possessing Weapon of Mass Destruction ,people were eagerly waiting them there with flowers to save them from the dictator Saddam but the funniest and the ridiculous one I like to mention here is when Bush explained to French president Chirac that the biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Mid-East and must be defeated.It is now confirmed in a new book,published by journalist called Jean Claude Maurice.Chirac was annoyed and very baffled by Bush's invocation of Biblical prophesy to justify the war in Iraq and "wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs".And in 2007,Bush said to the Palestinian foreign minister that he was on ‘a mission from God’ in launching the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and was receiving commands from the Lord.He was driven undoubtly by his religious belief that the war on Iraq was the fulfilment of a bibilical prophesy in which he had been chosen by God to serve as the instrument to prevent the Apocalypse.

George H.W. Bush had also been a “Bonesman”, as indeed had his father. Members of Skull & Bones are assigned or take on nicknames when they join. And what was George Bush Senior’s nickname?Magog!

Let s have a look on what Bush read:

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse who are prophesied to come out of the north and destroy Israel unless stopped. The Book of Revelation took up the Old Testament prophesy:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."


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revengadown 4 years ago

Bush believed the time had now come for that battle, telling Chirac:

"This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins".

Yes,new age of debris,despair,weakness,deformation that’s how you leaft Iraq behind you.No wonder this is the teachings of Paul and the fruits of the faith in him,not in Jesus (peace be upon him).let s have a look at the book of Revelation:

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them”.

In Ezekiel 38-39,You can find blow-by-blow description of the events.

In physics,there is a law says the pressure breeds explosion and that s what happened.Israel was supposed to pull out of West Bank and Gaza stripe after the Oslo agreement in 1991,and in the year 2001,they had only withdrawn from 22 percent of the lands,besides to the daily genocides and expulsion of Palestinian from their lands,! Muslims felt offended,angry at the USA.It was the real who pull the strings of the world s affairs and able to say:Halt to Israel and set things right by power if necesseray.That s why perhaps attacked USA but there are some evidences which show that the attack was an inside terrorist job by the US Government and the Israeli Mosad. FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11 and bin laden was wanted because of In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury

as CNN described it, “Unlike last year’s report, bin Laden’s al-Qaeda organization is mentioned, but the 2001 report does not contain a photograph of bin Laden or a lengthy description of him and the group.” [CNN, 4/30/2001]

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Osama bin Laden that was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat2, on September 28, 2001 -

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people


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revengadown 4 years ago

n July 2001, shortly after a pivotal al-Qaeda warning given by the CIA to top officials [JULY 10, 2001 HistoryCommons.org],Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Steve Cambone expressed doubts. He spoke to CIA Director George Tenet, and, as Tenet later recalled, “he asked if I had considered the possibility that al-Qaeda threats were just a grand deception, a clever ploy to tie up our resources and expend our energies on a phantom enemy that lacked both the power and the will to carry the battle to us.” Tenet claimed he replied, “No, this is not a deception, and, no, I do not need a second opinion.… We are going to get hit. It’s only a matter of time.” [TENET, 2007, PP. 154]

Thus it seems that then CIA Director George Tenet wanted the ‘deception’ to be ‘the reality’ on 9/11 advancing Neo-conian ideology of World Supremacy at the cost of a ‘New Pearl Harbour”! It would be obvious later on reading ‘What is Al-Qaeda’ that Irrespective of the Origin Al-Qaeda3 became covert wing of US/NATO/Israeli Intelligence using private mercenaries like Black Water as well asGuantanamo Bay like CIA/Military administered secret cells around the globe!

The 757 airplane supposed to have crashed into the Pentagon basing made a WILD, WILD turn in Pentagon airspace (240 degree turn around the Pentagon before crashing) going to the complete other side of the Pentagon. Thus it would have completely been visible. Also more importantly if the plane going to the Pentagon had simply crashed straight on (instead of making a wild turn) it would have slammed into the HIGHEST security level of the Pentagon with Rumsfeld, and his cronies. But the "plane" is alleged to have made a CRAZY turn and crashed into an almost empty area that was under "construction" and had very few people.

2) Note that the Pentagon was "attacked" 50 min. after the WTC was allegedly "attacked". How did a slow moving 757 plane fly around and then make a 240 degree turn in PENTAGON airspace, withouth being tracked and shot at! The Pentagon would be expected to have the highest security of almost any world building

a man named Frank A. DeMartini giving an interview on January 25, 2001 giving an interview saying the builders of the WTC thought quote: Frank Demartini's Statement

Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001.

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting.


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The Zionist "Lucky" Larry Silverstein, WTC site owner, told the firefighters to "pull" WTC building 7. Also WTC building 7 is the MOST ridiculous "collapse" the building was NOT struck and sustained LITTLE damage yet it collapsed hours later, video shows it going down straight away just like a "controlled demolition". Silverstein wanted $7 billion in insurance counting the WTC "attacks" as 2 incidents and NOT one

Bush the idiot implicates himself: by saying the following regarding his actions in the Flordia school the morning of 9/11/01:

I was sitting outside uh the the the classroom waiting to go in,

Which means Prior to entering the classroom, but during and after the 1st WTC crash, Bush was sitting in our TV-equipped limousine, the best-connected wheeled vehicle on Earth!

and I saw an airplane hit the tower of an of a T you know the TV was obviously on. Which means Surrounding another I'm-being-cagey alert, Bush makes it clear that he saw a video of the begininng of the 'secret' 'terrorist' attacks, apparently on some kind of special TV.

And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. Which means inappropriate but honest Bush levity (who did he say this to?)

I said, it must have been a horrible accident. Which means Bush the politician, realizing that he's just said something insensitive, and he'd better put a somber spin on it

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. Which means "whisked off there"? Interesting choice of words, but now he's finally getting to the classroom..

And I was sitting in the classroom which means So then he DID have time to think about it.

and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack. Which means So there is no chance of Bush having mistaken which WTC impact he'd watched that morning. The 2nd tower was not struck until after Bush was in the classroom.

(From: http://911blimp.net/aud_BushImplicatesBush.shtml)

Did Bush have a secret camera trained on the WTC? If so why? NO network TV stations carried the homemade video of a filmer who happened to be present with his camera up as the 1st plane came in! This video was again with an amateur who happened to be there at that exact time on 9/11, this amateur video was not released publicly until 15 HOURS LATER!!!! Did the U.S. government move at SUPER human speedy to find this man and then fax the video to Bush's limo in Florida so Bush could watch it on a closed circuit television station. NYC was a mass of people running each way that morning and again the crashes were within 20 mins of each other. It would take MUCH, MUCH longer for any government person to find this amateur filmmaker much less send this to Bush who was in Florida on the morning of 9/11.


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Background of the Israel-Arab conflict and the name of massacres against Palestinians:

Between 47-48:

-"Yishuv troops probably murdered some 800 civilians and prisoners of war".Most of these occurred as villages were overrun and captured during the Second phase of the Civil War, Operation Dani, Operation Hiram andOperation Yoav. According to Ilan Pappé, these took place in the context of an ethnic cleansing that "carr[ied] with it atrocious acts of mass killing and butchering of thousands of Palestinians were killed ruthlessly and savagely by Israeli troops of all backgrounds, ranks and ages."

-Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period[6] andSaleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place

-According to Benny Morris, the "worst cases" were the Saliha massacre with 70 to 80 killed, the Deir Yassin massacre with around 100, Lydda massacre with around 250, the Al-Dawayima massacre with hundreds and the Abu Shusha massacre with 70.[10] Saleh Abd al-Jawad reports the village's mukhtar account[11]that 455 people were killed at al-Dawayima including 170 women and children.

-An article published in Yubi.com under the title ‘1982 Year In Review:Palestinian refuge massacre,a correspondent Walter Wasneuski reported that about Dayre Yassin ‘despite complaints by US diplomats. Bullet punctured bodies are lying everywhere in groups as large as 15 in some places. Men were lined up against the wall and executed, their bodies falling together in a heap. Not a soul was left alive after the killers swept through”and from the same article an other correspondent Nick Charles correspondent added: The massacre stood a massive international outcry. At first Israeli primer minister Begin, who said he didn't learn of the massacre until two days after it started, said there would not be an investigation of the incident, but then backed down, under international pressure and ordered a special panel to determine what part, if any the Israeli's had in the massacre.Later Wachinton Post accused Sharon for being responsible for what happened.

“The Israeli Army surrounded the camps, providing the murderers with all the support, aid and facilities necessary for them to carry out their appalling crime. They supplied them with bulldozers and with the necessary pictures and maps. In addition, they set off incandescent bombs in the air in order to turn night into day so that none of the Palestinians would be able to escape death's grip. And those who did flee - women, children and the elderly - were brought back inside the camps by Israeli soldiers to face their destiny.36 At noon on Friday, the second day of the terrorist massacre, and with the approval of the Israeli Army, the kata'ib forces began receiving more ammunition, while the forces which had been in the camps were replaced by other, "fresh" forces.37 On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982, the massacre had reached its peak, and thousands of Sabra and Shatila camp residents had been annihilated.

Information about the massacre began to leak out after a number of children and women fled to the Gaza Hospital in the Shatila camp, where they told doctors what was happening. News of the massacre also began to reach some foreign journalists on Friday morning, September 17.38

One of the journalists who went into the camps after the massacre reports what he saw, saying, "The corpses of the Palestinians had been thrown among the rubble that remained of the Shatila camp. It was impossible to know exactly how many victims there were, but there had to be more than 1,000 dead. Some of the men who had been executed had been lined up in front of a wall, and bulldozers had been

used in an attempt to bury the bodies and cover up the aftermath of the massacre.

But the hands and feet of the victims protruded from the debris."

According to United Nations reports, the Zionist state of Israel had slaughtered from 1998 to 1999 over 900 Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip since when the indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian homes, schools and mosques began. Most shocking is that more than 300 of these are babies, toddlers and young


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children (1500 injured). This war crime has got to be one of the most horrific in the history of humanity and recently under the Israelian siege of Gaza. many children are dying from famine,illnesses and any attempt held to rescue those people are thwarted by Israel and not encouraged enough by west countries but excuse me to say that you are indirectly complicit in these murders for your tax dollars are being utilized to supply the brutal Zionists with F-16 jets, Apache helicopters and other lethal weapons of mass destruction. Approximately 5 billion dollars per year in USA military aid is being shipped to Israel

“when the girl-child that was buried alive is asked for what crime she had been slain, ... on that Day every human being will come to know what he has done."

~ The Qur'an, Sura 81~

To add to the monstrous nature of the onslaught of the Gaza Strip, Israeli armed forces are utilizing white phosphorus bombs which causes human flesh to burn to the bone and often blinds its victims. The Red Crescent Society and Human Rights Watch are reporting that some children have lost their eyesight as the chemical white phosphorus burned through their eye sockets.Here are some examples of massacres that were done under the world s eyes,maybe you wonder why I put them here ,well,I just want to show you being humiliated,driven away from the land ,no guns to defend,no money to feed many mouths and at last killed in barbarous ways are enough to make Palestinan outrageous and aggressive in their attacks as a reaction .Don’t expect them to shrug their shoulders and say :welcome back to take our land,we were waiting you for centuries!.Palestin is not the inheritance of their forefathers or God had gave them a possession ‘s document of the land.God is not stupid and blowing the self in a bus is not a kind of stupidity .It s a legal self-defence when you don’t own weapons to shoot back the invaders! It’s not kind of blowing the whole nation and saying at the end:We are sorry! It s like Kamikas Strategy used in the Second World War by Japon Air Force.

You should now that the first Chemical Bomb was thrown in Morocco to force a resistence pocket,led by Abdel Karim El Khattabi against Spanish army to surrender.Do you notice something that you are obsessed by blowing nations throught History?

Here are some information about the Israelian Masacres:

The King David Massacre:

The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine-- the


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Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion.

According to Yitshaq Ben-Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel investigating the crimes of the “ruthless clique heading the internal Zionist movement,”

The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee:

On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when offices are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the Hotel and ran away.

The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast: “As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff, many of whom I have known personally for eleven years. They are more than official colleagues. British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and

women-- young and old-- they were my friends.

“No man could wish to be served by a more industrious, loyal and honest group of ordinary decent people. Their only crime was their devoted, unselfish and impartial service to Palestine and its people. For this they have been rewarded by cold-blooded mass murder.”

. QAZAZA MASSACRE:

19 December 1947(Palestine) : 5 Arab children were murdered when Jewish terrorists blew up the house of the village Mukhtar

KHISAS MASSACRE:

18 December 1947(Palestine) : Two carloads of Haganah terrorists drove through the village of Khisas (on the Lebanese Syrian border) firing machine guns and throwing grenades. 10 Arab civilians were killed in the raid


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The Semiramis Hotel Massacre:

5/7/1948(Palestine): The Jewish Agency escalated their terror campaign against Palestinian Arabs.

They decided to perpetrate a wholesale massacre by bombing the Semiramis Hotel in the Katamon section of Jerusalem, in order to drive out the Palestinians from Jerusalem. The massacre of the Semiramis Hotel on January 5, 1948, was the direct responsibility of Jewish Agency leader David Ben-Gurion and Haganah leaders Moshe Sneh and Yisrael Galili. If this massacre had taken place in World War II, they would have been sentenced to death for their criminal responsibility along with the terrorists who placed the explosives.

A description of the massacre of the Semiramis Hotel from the United Nations Documents follows, as well as the Palestinian Police report on the crime sent to the Colonial Office in London:

January 5, 1948. Haganah terrorists made a most barbarous attack at one o’clock in the early morning of Monday…at the Semiramis Hotel in the Katamon section of Jerusalem, killing innocent people and wounding many. The Jewish Agency terrorist forces blasted the entrance to the hotel by a small bomb and then placed bombs in the basement of the building. As a result of the explosion the whole building collapsed with its residents. As the terrorists withdrew, they started shooting at the houses in the neighborhood. Those killed were: Subhi El-Taher, Moslem; Mary Masoud, Christian; Georgette Khoury, Christian; Abbas Awadin, Moslem; Nazira Lorenzo, Christian; Mary Lorenzo, Christian; Mohammed

Saleh Ahmed, Moslem; Ashur Abed El Razik Juma, Moslem; Ismail Abed El Aziz, Moslem; Ambeer Lorenzo, Christian; Raof Lorenzo, Christian; Abu Suwan Christian family, seven members, husband, wife, and five children.

The Massacre at Dair Yasin:

9/4/1948(Palestine): The forces of the Zionist gangs Tsel, Irgun and Hagana, fitted out with the Zionist terrorist strategy of killing civilians in order to achieve their aspirations, began stealing into the village on the night of April 9, 1948. Their purpose was to uproot the Palestinian people from their land by coming upon the inhabitants of the village

unawares, destroying their homes and burning them down on top of those inside, thereby making clear to the entire world to what depths of barbarism Zionist had sunk. The attack began as the children were asleep in their mothers' and fathers' arms. In the words of Menachim Begin as he described events, "the Arabs fought tenaciously in defense of their homes, their women and their children." The fighting proceeded from house to house, and whenever the Jews occupied a house, they

would blow it up, then direct a call to the inhabitants to flee or face death. Believing the threat, the people left in terror in hopes of saving their children and women. But what should the Stern and Irgun gangs do but rush to mow down whoever fell within range of their weapons. Then, in a picture of barbarism the likes of which humanity has rarely witnessed except on the part of the most depraved, the terrorists began throwing bombs inside the houses in order to bring them down on whoever was

inside. The orders they had received were for them to destroy every house. Behind the explosives there marched the Stern and Irgun terrorists, who killed whoever they found alive. The explosions continued in the same barbaric fashion until the afternoon of April 10, 1948.7 Then they gathered together the civilians who were still alive, stood them up beside the walls and in corners, then fired on them.8 About twenty-five men were brought out of the houses, loaded onto a truck and led on a


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"victory tour" in the neighborhood of Judah Mahayina and Zakhroun Yousif. At the end of the tour, the men were brought to a stone quarry located between Tahawwu'at Shawul and Dair Yasin, where they were shot in cold blood. Then the Etsel and Layhi "fighters" brought the women and the children who had managed to survive up to a truck and took them to the Mendelbaum Gate.8 Finally, a Hagana unit came and dug a mass grave in which it buried 250 Arab corpses, most of them women, children and the elderly.There is a woman survived the massacre by the name of Halima Id describes what happened to her sister. She says, "I saw a soldier grabbing my sister, Saliha al-Halabi, who was nine months pregnant. He pointed a machine gun at her neck, then emptied its contents into her body. Then he turned into a butcher, and grabbed a knife and ripped open her stomach to take out the slaughtered child with his

iniquitous Nazi knife."10 In another location in the village, Hanna Khalil, a girl at the time, saw a man unsheathing a large knife and ripping open the body her neighbor Jamila Habash from head to toe. Then he murdered their neighbor Fathi in the same way at the entranceway to the house.11 A 40-year-old woman named Safiya describes how she was come upon by a man who suddenly opened up his trousers and pounced on her. "I began screaming and wailing. But the women around me were all meeting the same fate. After that they tore off our clothes so that they could fondle our breasts and our bodies with gestures too horrible to describe."12 Some of the soldiers cut off women's ears in order to get at a few small earrings.13 Once news of the massacre had gotten out, a delegation from the Red Cross tried to visit the village. However, they weren't allowed to visit the site until a day after the

time they had requested. Meanwhile the Zionists tried to cover up the evidence of their crime. They gathered up as much as they could of the victims' dismembered corpses, threw them in the village well, then closed it up. And they tried to change the landmarks in the area so that the Red Cross representative wouldn't be able to find his way there. However, he did find his way to the well, where he found 150 maimed corpses belonging to women, children and the elderly. And in addition to the bodies which were found in the well, scores of others had been buried in mass graves while

still others remained stDAWAYMA MASSACRE:

The following are excerpts of a description of the massacre published in the

Israeli daily ‘Al ha Mishmar, quoted in All That Remains:

The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house

without dead…one commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain

house…and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused…the commander then ordered his men to put in the old women and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her…

A former mukhtar (head of a village) of Dawayma interviewed in 1984 by the Israeli daily Hadashot, also quoted by Mr. Khalidi, offered another description:

The people fled, and everyone they saw in the houses, they shot and killed. They

also killed people in the streets. They came and blew up my house, in the presence of eye-witnesses…the moment that the tanks came and opened fire, I left the village immediately. At about half-past ten, two tanks passed the Darawish Mosque. About 75 old people were there, who had come early for Friday prayers. They gathered in the mosque to pray. They were all killed


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Khan Yunis Massacre:

3/11/1956 (Palestine): Another massacre is committed on November 3, 1956 when the Israelis occupy the town of Khan Yunis and the adjacent refugee camp. The Israelis claim that there was

resistance, but the refugees state that all resistance had ceased when the Israelis arrived and that all of the victims were unarmed civilians.

Many homes in Khan Yunis are raided at random. Corpses lie everywhere and because of the curfew no one could go out to bury them. (An UNRWA investigation later found that the Israelis at Khan Yunis and therefugee camp had murdered 275 civilians that day ).

After the Israelis withdrew from Gaza under American pressure, a mass grave

was unearthed at Khan Yunis in March 1957. The grave contained the bodies

of forty Arabs who had been shot in the back of the head after their hands

AL-SAMMOU' MASSACRE:

13 November 1966(Palestine): Israeli forces raided this village, destroyed 125 houses, the village clinic and school as well as 15 houses in a neighbouring village. 18 people were killed and 54 wounded

Aitharoun Massacre:

1975 (Lebanon) :The 1sraelis perpetrated this massacre starting with a booby-trapped bomb. Then Israeli's detained three brothers, and killed them. They threw Their bodies on the road. 9 cicvlians were killed, 23 were wounded.

Fakhani Massacre :

17/7/1981 (Lebanon):A horrible massacre took place when Israeli warplanes raided a crowded residential area using the most developed weapons killing and wounding many citizens. 150 perosn were killed, 600 were wounded.

rewn over street corners and in the ruins of houses

THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE:

February 25, 1994 (Palestine):

While worshippers in the Ibrahimi Mosque in the city of Hebron were kneeling and prostrating before God, turning their faces toward the sacred house of God in the Friday dawn prayer on February 25, 1994, showers of treacherous Zionist bullets began raining down on them from all directions, felling more than 350 peaceable worshippers, some of whom were killed, and others wounded. And thus began the second chapter of this terrorist massacre at the hands of terrorist settler Baroukh Goldstein and his helpers

Qana Massacre :

18 April 1996, The "ethnic cleansing" operations carried out by the Zionist terrorist army have

encompassed not only Palestinian civilians, but Lebanese civilians in south Lebanon

as well.

the Zionist forces bombed the shelter which was providing refuge to

approximately five hundred Lebanese, most of whom were children, elderly and

women who had been forced out of their homes by Israeli raids on their villages, and

who had been unable to get to Beirut. This bombing led to the deaths of 109

Lebanese civilians and seriously wounded 116 others. During the attack, Israeli

forces used between 5 and 6 advanced bombs designed to explode above their

target in order to cause the largest possible number of casualties. Moreover,

international investigations confirmed that the Israeli forces had deliberately targeted


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the shelter.

Western Bekaa villages Massacre:

29/12/1999 (Lebanon):

The Israeli warplanes dropped bombs on he children who were celebrating the “eid” festival, killing eight children and wounding 11 others

These are just some of the massacres committed against the Palestinians and Lebanese by the Zionists. If the raids on southern Lebanon old and new were to be taken into account the true magnitude of Zionist crimes against humanity could start to emerge. If one were to go into the gruesome details of the atrocities committed in 1948 the -mopping up operations -, the deliberate humiliation and massacres of Arabs and the desecration of the holy places of both Muslim and Christian as well as the looting of these holy places and personal property by the Israeli army and settlers

"Destroy all of the land; beat down their pillars and break their statues and waste all of their high places, cleansing the land and dwelling in it, for I have given it to you for a possession" Numbers 33:52,53

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city both men and women, young and old and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21

What’s your opinion ?who did start the bomb thing?we or you? Which the book does incite its followers to kill and eliminate innocent people? If you are still sticking to your beliefs and stereotype you have about the average Muslims,I will make it clear here as a Muslim:We re not the bodiment of evils or backwardness and stupidity,simply we know what s going on and the conspiracy which is directed against us.We love humanity and it hurts me so much to see the innocent people among you or us suffering and dying.killing people is an unforgivable crime whatever it maybe the cause..you are only bothered when you see a young man blows up a bus,but you didn’t never bother to see a president blew up a peaceful nation in Iraq !How could you rest content while millions dying and smothered in blood,poverity,hungriness! The Arab or muslim world is not nest of evils and devils-What Huntinton says in his book “ Clash of civilization” is just propaganda used to build walls between Civilization and to prevent any dialogue in the forthcoming years-.Can you tell me where Hitler was brought up?a bloody fool who murdered fifty millions innocent people and where the people who dropped two atom bombs on japon educated?who killed three millions innocent vietnames?who annihilated the Indains?who waged the Spanish Civil War which exacted a thousend people in thirty six months.Why can' t you ask this questions!who has over fifteen thousand nuclear warheads.Muslims or non -Muslims?the Muslims or the Americans?Where your president educated if education is really what makes a person a criminal?Who invented the slavery in recent centuries?Who colonized the other?Algeira or France?Egypt or British? Maybe one thing You don’t know or maybe you turn you eyes on it deliberately is that the land on which you stand on was once a camp full of tepees ,green vast pasture and sacred hymen songs .Can you tell me where all these?Don’t you feel ashamed when you read about Sand Creek Massacre where an estimated 70 to 163 Indians were killed and mutilated by childrenColonel John M. Chivington who was a Methodist preacher and a Freemason who spoke out against slavery??Is this a kind of humanitarian or hypocritical acts?You can judge by yourself but before that you should bear in mind that Black Kettle put up an American flag, because he had been told that it


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would be a sign to the officers that he was friendly. At the beginning of the attack, Black Kettle then raised a white flag, but the soldiers still attacked Soldiers fired until the rifles were out of bullets and then went at the Indians with pistols and knives and bayonets. And axes. Women and children (about two-thirds of the slain) died along with men. There were rapes. Seventy-five lodges were burned to the ground and 1000 bushels of wheat and flour and 175 horses taken.

Are those people who are saved?or do you think that the fruit of their being saved are not yet to come??

Something you do not know either is when the soviet collapsed,the ugly face of the west was exposed in its stark reality.Thatcher,the British Prime Minister,said that the historical enmey of the West Communism,has ended and the eternal enmey of the West,Islam has risen.Did we impose this conflict?did we initiate it.the West and your president are using the war on terror as a cover;it s a war on Islam and he himself said so clearly"let it be a crusade"...I m not against Americans or any race,but I m against the unjustice and lies,especially lies on God.Do you think that the verses below are truelly the God’s commandments

1 Samuel 15:2,3

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

Numbers 31:17,18

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

According to the historical elaborations about Numbers 31:17-18 Biblical Verses in the Jewish Talmud, the girls in "every girl who has never slept with a man" were as young as 3 years old, and were forced into SEX

Deuteronomy 20:16

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Ezekiel 23:45-47 (King James Version)

45: And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

46: For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.


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Dr. Constable's Notes on Ezekiel , page 113

The Lord commanded a group of soldiers to attack these cities and to

terrorize and plunder them. These invaders would stone the

guilty(the punishment for adulterers and murderers in the Mosaic Law), slay them and their children with their swords, and burn their houses.

Why do innocent childeren, even unborn, have to be slay (as punishment) for the crimes (murder, adultery, idol worshipping) commited by their parents? Do you call this righteous dear christian ?

1 Samuel 15:2-3

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

2 Chronicles 15:13

All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman

Here we have Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10.Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls were also ordered to be raped by Moses.

Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:

1 Samuel 15:2-4:

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

There is also a praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9

8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.

9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

2 Kings 2

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.


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Here,we have 42 innocent children were killed using Wild Bears by Prophet Elisha but when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him tried to migrate from Mecca to the city of Al-Ta'if, the pagans there had their own children throw rocks on the Prophet until his face and body were swollen and bleeding. The Prophet peace be upon him prayed for the people of Al-Ta'if to be Guided to Islam. And ultimately they were Guided and they embraced Islam.This shows that the Prophet Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him, the Bible shows ZERO tolerance to even innocent name-calling from children; let alone having them throwing stones!!

I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands!It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt Bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

I challenge any Jew or Christian here to produce ONE, JUST ONE Noble Verse from Quran that condones killing of innocent children, women or even hostile enemy men who drop their weapons before Muslims (surrender).

Further more, Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

1. Notice: As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism and all of the other forms of evil that exist in the Bible, nor do we believe that the Prophets of Allah Almighty, peace and blessings be upon all of them, ever committed such cruel acts that are falsely attributed to them and this is what makes me laughing that there is X-Rated Pornography in the Bible, by King Solomon!Literally, women's vaginas and breasts taste like "wine", and brothers can "suck" their sisters' and lovers' privates! And


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revengadown 4 years ago

in Leviticus 11:20-23, "All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you." No insect with four legs exists. Insects have six legs and six feet.Leviticus 11:6 "The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Rabbits, are lagomorphs, not ruminants; they do not chew the cud. The earth is flat has four corners, is standing on pillars that prevent it from shaking, and is immovable. (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6, Job 38:4, Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 93:1-3, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, 1 Chronicles 16:30, Matthew 4:8) and Daniel 4:10-11 declares the earth is flat, "10 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky,it was visible to the end of the earth .That s what led Galili to persecution.

Matthew 13:31-32 "He (Jesus) told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds," The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.

Mark 16:18 "they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it,

Based on this Noble Verses we read before, I can safely conclude, as a Muslim, that the slaughtering stories of innocent people in the corrupted bible were nothing but man-made lies and laws that were put in the Mouth of Allah Almighty:

"Know not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following: "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Will you give me some time to read all of this? Then I will need time to think. To be truthful, that I what I need to do.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Have blast ;)enjoy your time with your family ;)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you, I appreciate that very much :) But, what you wrote is going to take a lot of time..


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

yes of course hehe anyway i m done don't worry now i m leaving to downtown to see some friends i have a a spring break too by the way i am english elementary teacher


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is wonderful, I hope you have a good time. By the way, you must be a very good teacher.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Thanks:)that s what I try to be NOW tah tah see you soon


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@lichele,I think People make the statement that the Church is hiding something because it does not give all its documents to the public.These are not the publics documents,they are documents of the Vatican.They have given permission for scholars to examine texs up to the twentieth century.No one has any right to complain if they do not have personal access because they are not their documents.

you know that Some 264 popes have reigned over the course of almost 2,000 years and in that time they have written major parts of the history of the Western world. Their stories fill some 30 miles (50 kilometers) of shelves in the Vatican Secret Archives, home to many of the pivotal documents of Western history.

there was a petition on behalf of Henry VIII seeking an annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Attached are the seals of 85 clergymen and nobles in England, an attempt to persuade the pope of the justness of Henry's request.he reams of red ribbon like those attaching the seals are said to be the root of the term "red tape." In spite of the ribbon and seals, the request was denied.

Incensed, Henry broke from Rome and declared himself head of the new Church of England. Almost 300 years earlier, a letter from the Great Khan of Mongolia arrived warning that if the Vatican wanted to maintain peace, the pope and his cardinals would have to come to the Khan's palace in Mongolia and pay him homage. Request also denied.

Some of these documents are slowly beginning to die of old age, thrusting conservators into a race against time.

In a conservation lab, they are carefully digitizing precious documents, like one of the few remaining letters in the hand of Michelangelo.

His letter features a timeless complaint: He pleads to a bishop that the guards of St. Peter's haven't been paid in nearly three months and their threatened departure will create a scandal Michelangelo wants no part of.

But nearly 500 years after he wrote it, iron in Michelangelo's ink has turned corrosive. Many of the graceful strokes from the master's pen have left the letter full of tiny slashes.

There's little that can be done to stop the corrosion, but conservators are working to ensure that more than just a virtual Michelangelo is all that remains.

Ordinary people say that there are secret books hidden in the Vatican which share the details of Christ's life from the age of twelve until the start of his public ministry. He said that if the information in these books was known, it would basically shatter all yur beliefs about Christianity, for example for example Gosple of Mary Magdalene and the supposed Jesus marriage to her, which was referred to in the Da Vinci code. Again these writings weren't "hidden" - the Kings of France claimed descent from Jesus, how would they do that if the supposed marriage to Mary Magdalene was not widely known?the question is why the Vatican would keep documents that would essentially destroy it?.Besides,I have some informations that in May 3,1917 there were 3 kids in portugal claimed they recieved series vision from Mary.These Children were shown many things including the rise and fall of communism in Russia, possibly the assassination attempt of Pope John Paul 2, the rise of evil, immorality and violence in the world.The tird Prophecy was of such a frightening nature, it has remained hidden by The Vatican up to and including today. FEB 2005 AD. In 1984, Pope John Paul II made a comment of the Third Prophecy saying that the great destruction would come upon the world and it shouldnt be told in public because it would be cause panic and terror.Pope John Paul also mentioned massive tidal waves and fires .The vatican recieved a letter from one of those kids in 1947 says that great fire will come on earth which was COMET IMPACT,so the Vatican hid this information from the world to prevent mass manic, chaos and a possible looting of the Vatican, its art and wealth so The Vatican worked secretly with NASA to prevent this global cataclysm from deep space,they called the comet " the king of terror from the sky" and believed would strike between 2010 and2012 and The Great Tribulation of seven years would be in that time.This is when God will judge the world and the Churches for their sins. This will be the last chance for Humanity to repent.You see how week vatican is in thier beliefs,they believe in Nostradamos and ignore the bible which says in Daniel"God knows all secrets. He knows what is in the darkness and what is in the light."


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

OK bookbeam,I will tell you the problem of Anti-Christ Paul.As you know n todays court of law any information given by a person that is contradictory, and is also illogical, then this information is thrown out the court and the speaker who gave the information is discredited and cannot be taken as a reliable person at all. We find this precisely to be the case with Paul, when Paul talks about his supposed meeting with Jesus, he contradicts himself and is also illogical. So we shall just quote the passages that bring into question the credibility of Paul supposedly meeting Jesus, and once we see the contradictory statements it will be safe to say that whole episode cannot be taken seriously, neither can the entire book of Acts and neither can Paul. So we now proceed to the verses:

The first mention of Paul meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus is mentioned in Acts 9: 1-7:

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man

So few things to note, Paul is on a journey, he then sees a light and hears a voice, this voice is supposedly Jesus. Paul then asks Jesus what do you want me to do? The response by Jesus is for Paul to go to the city and it will be made known to him over there. Now lets read whats Acts 26: 12-18:

12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me

So note the difference, in the first account all Jesus tells him is go to the city to find out what you must do, in this account in Acts 22 we see Jesus already telling Paul what he meant to do! So which one is it? Will Paul know what his purpose is in the city? Or did he already know?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

In fact in the account version of Acts 22: 5-10, there is no mention of Jesus telling Paul all this information:

. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. 6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do

This account agrees with the version of Acts 9, Acts 26 is the only different one in this case, Acts 26 contradicts Acts 9 and 22.

It is very easy to notice the contradiction, in Acts 9 and 22, Jesus tells Paul that he will know what to do in the city, in Acts 26 Jesus already tells Paul what he will do and mentions nuthing about going to a city to find out. So which one is it? We already have enough proof to discredit the entire account of Paul meeting Jesus, however so there is more.

Acts 9: 1-7:

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man

So as we can see, Acts verse 7 says that the men who accompanied Paul heard a voice, but saw no man, they saw nodoby. Now let us compare this with Acts 22 5-9:

. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. 6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

So now as you can see, in Acts 22 Paul says the man saw a light, but heard no voice! In Acts 9 Paul says the men so no man, but heard a voice!!!! The obvious contradiction is there for all to see, there is no denying it. So this piece of information also throws doubt into the entire episode, it shows that this story is not credible at all. We already have 2 contradictions, it is safe to say that if we were in court this information would be thrown out and Paul would be exposed as a liar for all the jury to see.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

So based on this information we can also say that the entire book of Acts is now in doubt, and is also unreliable, we can also say the entire character of Paul is in doubt and is unreliable, as we clearly see he cannot stay consistent at all. It does not end there, there is still another contradiction left and a logical fallacy, first the contradiction:

Acts 26: 12-14:

12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

So as you can see, the verse says that Paul and the men with all fell down, easy to see and understand. Let us read what Acts 9 and 22 have to say.

Acts 9: 5-7 :

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man

So as you can all see, Acts 9 shows the men did not fall to the ground, but stood speechless, they were shocked that they stood still. No one fell down, hence we have another contradiction. So which one was it? Did the men with Paul all fall down? Or did they stay standing? It seems Paul cannot give a straight answer! It doesn’t end there, let us read Acts 22.

Acts 22:5-7:

. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. 6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

So we now see Paul saying that he fell! Not everyone, but him alone, so now Paul again contradicts himself. So which one is it? Acts 22 and 9 agree that only Paul fell, Acts 26 says that they all fell, which one is it? The answer is non of them are correct, it is all a big lie, a hoax made up by Paul. He most likely paid those men with him to act like he saw something, you want proof? Sure I will show you the proof.

You see, when a liar has a plan, he always fails, they always forget something small, and Paul forgot something small here, this leads to the logical fallacy, this logical fallacy does show that it could be said that Paul made the whole thing up and paid those men with him to lie about it and act like it did happen, anyway here is the proof:

Acts 9: 1-9:

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

So as we can see, the supposed light that Paul saw blinded him for three days, this is supposedly to show how strong this light was and how great and glorious it was that Paul went blind.

Here is the logical fallacy:

Acts 22: 5-11:

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. 6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus

The logical fallacy is for all to see, Paul looks at the light and gets blind, yet the men with him also saw the light and did not get blind! Why is that? I would love to know, why was Paul the only one who got blind? Why not everyone else, they saw the same light, so hence if Paul got blind so should have the men with him. This is Paul's blunder, he forgot it wouldnt make sense that he gets blind by looking at the light, while the other men dont get blind. This is all a hoax, Paul faked it all with the help of the men with him, Paul wanted to make it seem like he met Jesus, he made a blunder when he said he got blind because other men DIDNT get blind and they also saw the light. Paul couldnt even remember the story he fabricated which is why he kept on contradicting himself. So three contradictions and a logical fallacy, Paul lied, Acts is unreliable, the Bible is corrupt, the Quran said so,Now let me tell you aboutsome ways and tricks that if Paul followed,he would probably avoid the big mess he did:)

- Write down his fabricated story so he could have remembered it.

2- Should have made the story a bit more simple, more short so he could easily memorize it.

3- He should have not made the part up about him being blind.

4- He should have made another person act like he was blind to make it seem that Paul was not acting since he was the only blind one, if you had two blind men then it would be a bit more believable.

Those 4 things would have easily have gotten Paul of the hook, but liars always expose themselves. Paul is false


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@BookBeam,Do you still believe he had "an experience with the risen Jesus"?If you still,I have an ace up my sleeve for you:)


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown Do I believe Paul had an experience with a risen Jesus? I don't know. I would say it's not likely Paul would suffer the way he did for a lie. Paul seems to be searching himself for the meaning in what he experienced. It could all be a fraud. But if the Jesus described by Paul and the rest of the synoptic gospels is not true - I mean if Jesus is not God - then Jesus is a liar or a lunatic.

The real question is what nature - what essence is god? The Muslim answer to this seems to be that there is none.

How about that? Do you think the god of the Muslims is constrained by love? Do you think that god can hate some people and not others? Do you think that god can lead some men astray and lead others rightly?


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown You asked me why people followed Paul. And then follow up with a concern over what I believe.

Why not respond to the point I made? The god that Paul describes (of the Christian scriptures) is a god who loves man - he is all powerful, created the world etc., but, he cannot be illogical. In the same way that he cannot make 1+1=3 or make a circle into a square, he cannot lie. He created free beings who make choices. He did this because he desires to be freely loved. Jesus is attractive to men and women who choose to love him.

Contrast to the Muslim god who seems repulsive to me. And you have nothing, so far, to offer me to change that opinion.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@ravengadown You really need to answer, if god is all powerful, why he does not simply sweep away all the rebels and unbelievers and establish his tyranny once and for all. The theophany of a loving god who comes to us desiring to be loved by his free creations explains why he does not. And explains why the preaching of Paul was accepted by the Greeks who needed that understanding as well as the Jews in ancient times. If you could answer you could say it in 100 words.


whatsreal 4 years ago

revengadown is a Muslim. He thinks Christ watched the crucifixion and believes eternal life is earned. He's obviously confused. So is anyone who thinks eggs and bunnies invalidate the Christian faith. So are the people who believe revengadown's distortions and/or pacify him and his blasphemy.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@whatsreal - If revengadown thinks that god's merit is earned then he needs to answer - if Islam is such an advanced and final faith - answer succinctly, what does god - who created the world - need that man can give? We're not the first to ponder that question and the answer has a lot to do with why the Christian faith was embraced by the pagan Greeks in ancient times.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@bookbeam,God loves and treats all humans alike with compassion and mercy.It’s Him who created us out of nothing and presented the earth with thousands of benefactions like sun,sea,wind…to service us. Why us?because we are the vicegerents of God on earth.It doesn’t matter if we are Muslims or Unbelievers.His compassion covers everywhere.If it doesn’t,He wouldn’t have created us and given these benefactions for our benefit.

“Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy: if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people."(Sura 6:133

Saying Allah is biased because he does not love the unbelievers (3:32) is the idea of some Christains like you who hate Islam unlike Bush who announced that Islam is the religion of peace!. Now I am not going to bother wasting my time trying to repeat myself again,only what I can do is to cut and paste my answer to that comment where you implied that I am bomb suicider if you want. I dont have that plenty of time to paint you an other picture.I think you have seen far enough with evidences who was a real bomb suicider throughout history .Now,excuse me l m going to turn the table on you, using the same argument you used against Quranic perception of Allah.Befor doing that let me tell you something don’t you think that it is very ironic when Muslims write against Christianity, and expose a couple of Christian missionaries you all of a sudden become hateful. How does that work? Or I get it now, it seems that you are nurtured by hatred and smouldered by grudge, and that only Christians can attack Islam, and a few Muslim apologists, but Muslims can’t do it in return.How do I hate Christians? Just because I write against Christianity makes me a hater? Attacking Islam and Muslims in their homes are legal and preached by insane people legal .You re always fond of claiming that you don’t hate Muslims, but you simply are bringing objective (laughing) arguments against Islam and Muslims. This is exactly what I am doing, how does that make me a hater of Christians?

To further silence the pathetic propagandis Whatsreal, I have many Christian friends; does it make sense for me to have Christian friends when I hate them so much? But it is good that you wrote such utter nonsense, because in doing so it exposed this mans sick mentality,that according to him, any Muslim who attacks the Christian faith automatically becomes a hater of Christians, but if Christians do it then its okay.Indeed such characteristics in Whatsreal shows him to be similar to ruthless street thugs who have committed several hate crimes against Muslims, and it is who hates the Muslim.I m here not to twist the messages of the Bible and insulting Christians and their faith or to laugh at you as Whatsreal said but is to clear the name of Jesus the Prophet peace be upon him that he blasphemed against Allah by claiming a share in Allah s divinity and it was Prophet Muhammad who brought the good news that Prophet Jesus did not die on the cross as the Qur'an so affirmatively asserts. He cleared the name of Prophet Jesus that he allegedly betrayed his covenant to God as a prophet and divine messenger. He put the life of Prophet Jesus in clear perspective and bore witness that he was but a man commissioned by God to call humanity to God's way and was given special powers to help him accomplish his mission.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Plus in the day of Judgment,Allah will ask every Muslim about what they offered to Islam so I m here trying to do the best I can to open your eyes to the big lie which was invented by someone who never met Jesus in person and who was persistent to know who was really Jesus not that I m confused or had intention to convert to Christianity.That s reall ridiculous Mr A M Werner ?.Morever,to the fact that the earth's population is around 7.0 billion people, half of which are far-eastern pagans. Not only that, but their pagan religions (buddhism, hinduism, shintos, etc...) date 1000s of years back. This means that many billions of humans have already been doomed in Hell because of their paganism. they are the majority!

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To whatsreal "Many a man curses the rain that falls upon his head, and knows not that it brings abundance to drive away hunger." St. Basil

Now, Let us look at some verses of the Bible to see if GOD truelly doesn’t hate.

Psalm 5:4-6

4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;

with you the wicked cannot dwell.

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;

you hate all who do wrong.

6 You destroy those who tell lies;

bloodthirsty and deceitful men

the LORD abhors.

Psalm 11:5

5 The LORD examines the righteous,

but the wicked and those who love violence

his soul hate

You argue and say that book of psalm is a book of poetry and we can not establish any doctrine related verdicts based on books of poetry .even though this argument is very lame.I will accept it for sake of argument and show God hates from other books of the bible which are not book of poetry

Ecclesiastes 3:8

8 a time to love and a time to hate,

a time for war and a time for peace.

Leviticus 20:23

23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.

Deuteronomy 18:12

12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

Leviticus 26:30

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Romans 9:13

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

we believe that Allah has put us on earth and made us all Muslims by fitrah (nature). That it is natural for all of us to want to know God. To get to know God. We are born pure. It is like he has put us all on a highway leading to paradise but there are many exits. People unfortunately take those exits despite God warning us not to take them. Therefore, those who turn away from the mercy of God. Reject the love that God wants to give them and has already given them from the start. Therefore, God does not love them anymore. They do not deserve to be loved. Allah is fair,How does it make a believer feel that with all the good deeds he has done and all the love that he showed towards God and then finds out that God loves the corrupt people equally? It is not fair. It is illogical and how is it fair - in a point was discussed here- a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a condumend sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for him self? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot! What about the madman? Is he also a sinner? According to original sin he is. How can God condemn a madman who cannot use his reason and be able to make a rational decision? Truly this is unjust. Islam does not hold these kind of people accountable.


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revengadown 4 years ago

Since Adam s expulsion from heaven,God didn’t let him go astray or hang out to dry.He supported him and his children by continuous revelations and guidance so as to be able to discern between the truth and illusion.

One of the great illusion is that people throughout history set up idols beside God ,thinking they are in better position so they could bring them closer to Him.The Quran cites many idol worships:

1.Calf,statues as idols:

[2:51] Yet, when we summoned Moses for forty nights, you worshiped the calf in his absence, and turned wicked.

[21:51-53] Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him. He said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?" They said, "We found our parents worshiping them."

2.Jinns’demonds’ as idol :

6:100] Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.

3.Children as idols:

[7:190] But when He gives them a good baby, they turn His gift into an idol that rivals Him. GOD be exalted, far above any partnership.

4.Human as idol:

[7:194] The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right.

5.Satan as idol:

[14:22] And the devil will say, after the judgment had been issued, "GOD has promised you the truthful promise, and I promised you, but I broke my promise. I had no power over you; I simply invited you, and you accepted my invitation. Therefore, do not blame me, and blame only yourselves. My complaining cannot help you, nor can your complaining help me. I have disbelieved in your idolizing me. The transgressors have incurred a painful retribution."

6.God s servant as idol:

[18:102] Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.

7.Ego as idol:

[25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate?

[45:23] Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?

8.Creating sect in religion is idol worship :

(30:31-32)You shal submit to Him,reverence Him,observe the Contact prayers(Salat),and-whatever you do-do not ever fall into idol worship.(Do not fall in idol worship)like those who divide their religion into sects,each party rejoicing with what they have.

9.Jesus as idol:

(5;72) pagans indeed are those who say that God is the Messiah,son of Mary.The messiah himself said “O children of Israel,you shall worship God,my lord and your lord”Anyone who sets up any idol beside God,God has forbidden paradise for him,and his destiny is Hell.The wicked have no helpers”

Of course there are many other idols could be mentioned:drugs,alcohol,love of power,love of pleasure.An idol could be anything that you allow to take first place in your life instead of Allah.

For this reason, Islam came to put an end to this illusion and to return people to God “Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him’ Quran 112 :1-4

So , Islam rests solely on its doctrine of tawhid, meaning literally “making one”, theologically “making no partner with God ”, confessing that God alone is God and there is no other. In Islam,it is not permissible to speak about the Essence of Allah The Almighty by referring to one’s mind for the human mind is feeble to realize the Essence of the Creator The Exalted and whatever image comes to your mind about Allah The Almighty should be rejected,Our prophet peace be upon him says “think of the creatures that God created and do not think of His Essence” here you may ask him: If the mind cannot realize the Essence of Allah The Almighty, so how can one know Allah The Almighty while knowing him is obligatory upon every person(Muslim)?The answer is quite simple knowing Allah The Almighty can be attained through knowing His Attributes such as Al-Wujood (Existence), Qidam(being without beginning, and eternal in the past), Al-Baqaa’(being without end, and eternal in the future;), Mukhaalafah lil Hawaadith(unlike the created beings), Qaa’im bi Nafsih (Self-independent), Al-Wahdaaniyyah (Oneness), Life, Knowledge, Power, Will, Hearing, Seeing and Speech..

To summarise this point, He is ‘more than us’ in every aspect of existence, and this would include both His unity and His robustness. As a human, I am an integrated unity (a unity of body, soul, spirit) but God is more integrated than I ..He is a unit of no ‘parts’. I am also a bundle of various attributes, capabilities, aspects, perspectives, elements (a plurality of internal states) but God is more robust than that..He has many more attributes, perspectives, internal states than do I. I am a simple being--but God is 'more simple'. I am a complex being but God is 'more complex'.Iben Khaldon says: “you can’t measure the mountains by the the gold measure”

Worth to mention here is that the Quran doesn’t discuss the actuals ‘ insides’ of God and the earliest Muslims had no problem talking about the multiple perfections within one God,they simply accepted what the scripture said without twisting the verses into something other than what they appeared. When the Islamic scriptures said that God was One, they were understood to mean that there was only one God only one being that could correctly be called God. It meant that there were not two gods, or three gods, or ten gods, or hundreds of gods. It meant that God had no partner gods, wife goddesses, or offspring gods -- sons or daughters. There were no other gods in existence to even be partners, wives, or children gods.

To say that God was One was to say that God was alone, that God was different from everything else, and that God had no equals or rivals. Imam Ali :

To know God is to know his oneness. To say that God is one has four meanings: two of them are false and two are correct. As for the two meaning that are false, one is that a person should say "God is one" and be thinking of number and counting. This is false because that which has no second cannot enter into the category of number. Do you not see that those who say that God is a third of a trinity fall into this infidelity? Another meaning is to say, "So-and-So is one of his people," namely, a species of this genus or a member of this species. This meaning is also false when applied to God, because it implies likening something to God, whereas God is above all likeness. As to the two meaning that are correct when applied to God, one is that it should be said that "God is one" in the sense that there is no likeness to him among things. Another is to say that "God is one" in the sense that there is no multiplicity or division conceivable in Him, neither outwardly, nor in the mind, nor in the imagination. God alone possesses such a unity.


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revengadown 4 years ago

The sin of idolatry can start from a small thought or whisper:

“The Shaytaan(devils) comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

According to this narration, Mohamed peace be upon him told us that devils first whisper usual things (Such as ”Who created this tree”), and in the end, they ask us a polythiest question.What is supposed to do here is to fight and give up these thoughts and make ourselves busy with other,useful things.

But later when the Islam become widespread,some new ideas started to forground such as the sovereignty of Allah vs freedom of human will,the essence of Allah:does He have body?eyes?hands?Is Quran a creation?...Many Muslim theologians and philosophers said far enough about this issues.If you want to have a peek, here is a simple example below:

The Quran states,on the one hand,that there is nothing that equals God,and that he has no like(Qur'an 42.11, 112.4 but on the other hand,it describes Him as having face,hand and eyes and as talking,and sitting on the Throne and as having feelings Qur'an 55.17, 38.75, 54.14, 2.153, 20.5, 2.26)Those who are supposed to have advocated anthropomorphism (likening God to man- tashbih) brought forward rational arguments in addition to their literal interpretation of the sacred texts.On the assumption that only bodies have existence, they argued that since God exists, He is a body. Also whoever acts must be a body, according to reality and reason. Since God acts, He must be a body. The counter arguments were that since any body is composed of parts, whereas God is one, and since any body is produced in time whereas God is eternal, it is inconceivable to liken God to a body and this is what lead Many theologians to be tortured for calling the sects and groups to stop debating with each other over things that would lead them to polytheism and to return immediately to the Quran, teachings of the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him and the understanding of Islam of the earlier Muslims.When the Jews said that Allah’s hand is tied up, the earlier Muslims (Prophet’s companions) didn’t puzzle over it or went whispering to each other that Allah had hand so He had a body-they were the knights of eloquence and fluency .That s why Quran was revealed in Arabic to challenge them-,they knew what Jews meant by that exactly;that Allah is miser and does not spend from what He has.Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him.Allah says in other verse:Let not your hand be tied to your neck(like miser),nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach(like spendthrift),so that you become blameworthy and sever poverty”in this verse Allah forbids stringiness and extravagance.

In Christainity,people went astray when Rome's Emperor Constantin decided to "unify" the Christians under one "Canon" modern New Testaments with all of their current variations and conflicting versions because they were so divided among each others as to who Jesus really was and what really happened to him! Take for instance the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", which talks about Jesus' childhood life in good details but according to according to the New Testament itself, all of Jesus' Disciples fled for their lives on the night of crucifixion. None of them witnessed Jesus' crucifixion except for one, that is Saint Peter! He was the lone and only witness of the actual crucifixion event. Let us look at what the Bible's New Testament says:

Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

.......

55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. (Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.)

57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.


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revengadown 4 years ago

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Now as we clearly see, Peter did witness the so-called crucifixion event. He was present there. The only thing that saved him from death is his denial that he knew Jesus. Otherwise, he would've got crucified that night.

Take into considerations that these verses were written in the third narration ,which indicates that the Bible was written by mysterious men.

Now let s move the Apocalypse of Peter was directly written and spoken by Peter himself not third narration This Revelation was widely accepted and believed in by the early Christians during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. Here are the fragments of his Apocalypse.

As the Savior was sitting in the temple in the three hundredth year of the covenant and the agreement of the tenth pillar, and being satisfied with the number of the living, incorruptible Majesty, he said to me (Peter),

"Peter, blessed are those above belonging to the Father, who revealed life to those who are from life, through me, since I reminded them, they who are built on what is strong, that they may hear my word, and distinguish words of unrighteousness and transgression of the law from righteousness, as being from the height of every word of this Pleroma of truth, having been enlightened in good pleasure by him whom the principalities sought. But they did not find him, nor was he mentioned among any generation of the prophets. He has now appeared among these, in him who appeared, who is the Son of Man who is exalted above the heavens in fear of men of like essence. But you yourself, Peter, become perfect in accordance with your name with myself, the one who chose you, because from you I established a base for the remnant whom I have summoned to knowledge. Therefore be strong until the imitation of righteousness - of him who had summoned you, having summoned you to know him in a way which forth doing because of the rejection which happened to him, and the sinews of his hands and his feet, and the crowning by those of the middle region, and the body of his radiance which they bringing hope of service because of a reward of honor - as he was about to reprove you three times in this night".

And as he was saying these things I saw the priests and the people running up to us with stones, as if they would kill us; and I was afraid that we were going to die. And he said to me: "Peter, I have told you many times that they are blind ones who have no guide. If you want to know their blindness, put your hands before your eyes - your robe - and say what you see." But when I had done it, I did not see anything. I said "No one sees this way" And he said to me, "Do it again." And there came in me fear with joy, for I saw a new light greater than the light of day. Then it came down upon the Savior. And I told him about those things which I saw. And he said to me again, "Lift up your hands and listen to what the priests and the people are saying." And I listened to the priests as they sat with the scribes. The multitudes were shouting with their voice. When he heard these things from me he said to me "prick up your ears and listen to the things they are saying." And I listened again, "As you sit, they are praising you." And when I said these things , the Savior said "I have told you that these people are blind and deaf. Now then, listen to the things which they are telling you in a mystery, and guard them. Do not tell them to the sons of this age. For they shall blaspheme you in these ages since they are ignorant of you, but they will praise you in knowledge - for many will accept our teaching in the beginning, and they will turn from them again by the will of the Father by their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And they praise the men of propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."

"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching, and they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: those who stand in the strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption - for evil cannot produce good fruit. For the place from which each of them is produces that which is like itself; for not every soul is of the truth, nor of immortality. For every soul of these ages has death assigned to it in our view, and their eternal destruction, in which they are and from which they are. They love the creatures of the matter which came forth with them. But the immortal souls are not like these, O Peter. But indeed, as long as the hour is not yet come, the immortal soul shall resemble the mortal one. But it shall not reveal its nature, that it alone is the immortal one, and thinks about immortality, having faith, and desiring to renounce these things."

"For people do not gather figs from thorns or from thorn trees, if they are wise, nor grapes from thistles. For on the one hand, that which is always becoming is in that from which it is, being from what is not good, which becomes destruction for it and death. But that which comes to be in the Eternal One is in the One of the life and the immortality of the life which they resemble. Therefore all that which exists not will dissolve into what exists not. For deaf and blind ones join only with their own kind. But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone. And in haughtiness they shall grasp at the pride to envy the immortal soul which has become a pledge. For every authority rule, and power of the aeons wishes to be with these in the creation of the world, in order that those who are not, having been forgotten by those that are, may praise them,


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revengadown 4 years ago

though they have not been saved, nor have they been brought to the Way by them, always wishing that they may become imperishable ones. For if the immortal soul receives power in an intellectual spirit. But immediately they join with one of those who mislead them."

"But many others, who oppose the truth and are the messengers of error, will set up their error and their law against these pure thoughts of mine, as looking out from one perspective, thinking that good and evil are from one source. They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate. The race of immortal souls will go in it in vain, until my Parousia. For they shall come out of them, and my forgiveness of their transgressions into which they fell through the adversaries, whose ransom I got from the slavery in which they were, to give them freedom that they may create an imitation remnant in the name of a dead man, who is Hermas, of the first-born of unrighteousness, in order that the light which exists may not be believed by the little ones. But those of this sort are the workers who will be cast into the outer darkness, away from the sons of light. For neither will they enter, nor do they permit those who are going up to their approval for their release."

"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishments of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, and whom they took prisoner."

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

But I said " I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little ones are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed." The Savior said , "For a time determined for them in proportion to their error they will rule over the little ones. And after the completion of the error, the never-aging one of the immortal understanding shall become young, and the little ones shall ruler over those who are their rulers. The root of their error He shall pluck out, and He shall put it to shame so that it shall be manifest in all the impudence which it has assumed to itself. And such ones shall become unchangeable, O Peter."

"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place." But he said to me, "I have told you, "Leave the blind alone!" And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."

And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was filled with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed. And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel, in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant


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revengadown 4 years ago

light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma , which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."

"These things, then, which you saw you shall present to those of another race who are not of this age (i.e., the Arabs who then became Muslims). For there will be no honor in any man who is not immortal, which has shown that it is able to contain him who gives his abundance. Therefore I said, "Every one who has, it will be given to him, and he will have plenty." But he who does not have, that is, the man of this place, who is completely dead, who is removed from the planting of the creation of what is begotten, whom, if one of the immortal essence appears, they think that they possess him - it will be taken from him and be added to the one who is. You, therefore, be courageous and do not fear at all. For I shall be with you in order that none of your enemies may prevail unto you. Peace be to you, Be strong!"

notice how the Revelation of Peter is original. It is not narrated by a third-party person. It was spoken and written by Saint Peter himself. There are few points I'd like to elaborate on from the Apocalypse:

1- Jesus, peace be upon him, clearly never got crucified according to the Revelation. He spoke about the "substitute" that got crucified in his place that perfectly matches the Noble Quran's Divine Claims:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

2- Peter according to the NT and to the Apocalypse was the only one who witnessed the crucifixion. There is even further evidence in Hebrews 5:7 of the NTthat clearly support Peter's Apocalypse.

3- Jesus pointed to the Arabs as the future race when he called them "another race." Even the New Testament supports this quote very well:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

4- The "blind" from the polytheist trinitarian pagans and the others who believed and still believe that Jesus got crucified will never prevail. They only believe in lies without certain knowledge. Even their scriptures are all man-made as we clearly saw above in the third-party narration proofs. This goes well, by the way, with the following Noble Verses:

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (The Noble Quran, 3:55)"

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

5- The Apocalypse of Peter indeed confirms Peter's disowning of Jesus three times as mentioned in the NT verses above. The Apocalypse's quote: "as he was about to reprove you three times in this night" clearly refers to when Peter disowned Jesus three times.

6- Notice the "tree" part where Jesus was sitting on top of. There are some mixed signals/evidence in the NT that prove the Truthfulness of the Apocalypse of Peter. The NT itself can not make up its mind on whether the so-called crucifixion took place on a cross or on a tree. It seems that many of the "blind" ones back then got confused with whether or not Jesus got crucified on the cross or on the tree. The mention of the "tree" was obviously done by Peter and his followers. But as years and centuries passed by (the NT was written around year 300....300 years after Jesus!), false stories and lies were fabricated and rumored regarding Jesus, the cross and the tree. Let us look at the following verses:

Tree?

Acts 5

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Acts 13

28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:


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revengadown 4 years ago

Cross?

Matthew 27

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

Matthew 27

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

Mark 15

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Luke 23

25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

John 19

18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

So the Apocalypse of Peter answers this confusion and the real Jesus was sitting on the tree, while the false servant was on the cross!

Morever,the current trinity lie is not different from the far eastern pagan religions:You say that since most Christians today are "Trinitarians" or polytheist trinitarian pagans who believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then this must mean that their religion is Divine and Truthful.

I have already showed you above about what Jesus said regarding the "blind" ones. But even according to the New Testament itself, trinitarians are actually false because they are the majority and they are the "blind" ones. Let us look at the following verses:

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

At last let me inform you anout what happened exactly in time of persecution as many christain historians stated:there were three basic periods of the persecution. The first was from the death of Christ until right before the Great Fire of 64 A.D., which Nero falsely blamed Christians for. However, this first persecution "was a mere afterthought, and did not result in any general proscription" (Cary and Scullard, p. 487). The second period lasted from the end of the first until around 250 A.D., and the final one spanned the years from 250/251, the persecution under Decius, until 313. Up until 250, the persecution was sporadic and localized. However, from 250-251 the Emperor Decius instituted what Michael Grant, an eminent classical historian, calls a "systematic persecution of the Christians" (Grant, p. 157). During this persecution, Decius even executed Pope Fabianus, after which he supposedly remarked: "I would far rather receive news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop in Rome.""

"The Christians were persecuted for a variety of reasons. First, they denied the basis for the Roman imperium (‘command, rule, empire, supreme power') by advocating that their God was the only real God. This denied the existence of the pagan Roman gods. These same Roman gods, in a sense, founded Rome, because according to legend and popular belief, Romulus, the offspring of the Roman god of war, Mars, founded the city of Rome in 753 B.C. This gave the Romans a divine basis for their temporal power. When the Christians denied the existence of Mars, they attacked the foundation of Roman power. Since they were attacking Roman authority and power, the Romans came to view Christians as a threat to the state....."


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

The threat of Religion to the pagan Rome was definitely one of the main reasons why religious people as a whole (Jews and early Christians) were persecuted and killed. There is not a single shred of evidence that proves:

The Disciples of Jesus believed in the polytheist trinity paganism

Died for this false and man-made belief.

Died for the belief that Jesus died on the cross. They were not even the authors of the "gospels" that were attributed to them.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown

All the ancient scriptures, Koran & Bible could be fabricated and I am shallow hypocrite and you are an erudite scholar.

But I am interested in the idea that god loves man. If that is true then does that not ascribe characteristics to him? Does it not confine him to that category?

I think I understand the Christian answer but not the Muslim.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It s the Bible which is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption,not The Quran Mr Bookbeam.I challange you!your claim based on nothing but if you are going to quote Gerd Puin’s (old) theory about the early quranic manuscripts found in the Sanaa mosque in Yemen,I ASSURE you you r going to be shot by yourself in the foot:)

Allah is love and his compassion covers everything.read again what I stated befor.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown I am a poor fool - I need your help. Maybe you did answer but I came late and it's not hard for you I know. My question: Does ascribing the characteristic "Allah is love" not place a constraint on god and confine his will? For my sake, why not just answer "yes" or "no"?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@bookbeam God is everywhere.He s above time and place and catagory and anything that comes to our mind.Try to listen to QURAN AND ALLAH will enlighten you.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown I understand you when you say that god is above categories that come to our minds. I respect you for that answer. But it then seems wrong for you to declare that "Allah is love" because to do so confines him to that category. Did you misspeak when you said that "Allah is love?"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@BookBeam,Allah the Exalted loves, feels contentment, rejoices and laughs, and He also hates, dislikes, abhors and becomes angry, yet none of these Divine attributes resembles those of human beings.the term 'Divine attributes' here is restricted to the attributes imputed to Allah by Himself, or by His Apostle(Peace be on Him). They should not be carried beyond their linguistic meaning. One should avoid trying to imagine the reality of these attributes; to deny them, or to attempt to interpret them, leads to kufr (unbelief).


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown Why do you suppose that you said that "Allah is love?" Everyone makes mistakes. You meant rather that he loves, he hates, becomes angry etc. He has no characteristic that would confine him. Wouldn't you say that it is a corruption for the Christians to say that "God is constrained to love man?" I would appreciate, for my sake, a yes or no answer.


whatsreal 4 years ago

Ravengadown knows the mind of Allah. Nice! I bet he's in flight school.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@bookbeam,Not answering you by yes or no doesn't mean I regreted what I said to you or rightnow my feet are in my mouth.Drop away that image from your head.ALLAH IS LOVE and more than Love and more than more than love, MERCIFUL!

Hadith Qudsi:

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."In some other Hadiths Allah will forgive millions of people who deserve punishment on the Day of Judgment and will also save those who are in Hell and who have belief in the slightest degree after a while. Does this not show how compassionate Allah is?

Of course, Allah will make the unbelievers that have no slightest degree of belief and that have been hostile to Him during their lives stay in Hell forever. This is essential in order to protect the rights of the creator’s attributes that show dignity and greatness and for the rights of the oppressed ones, prophets, their revelations and millions of verses that were refuted and disapproved by unbelievers.


whatsreal 4 years ago

Ravengadown, you sound like a true jihadist. TTL... I'm going outside to look for low flying aircraft.

Quick, post 6,000 lines of nonsensical ramblings to confuse everyone.. hurry!


editorsupremo profile image

editorsupremo 4 years ago from London, England

Lovely explanation on how Christians took over pagan rituals and called them their own.

Thanks for making it clear.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment editorsurpemo I appreciate it very much.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@ravengadown I asked you if is a corruption for the Christians to say that "God is constrained to love man." You now emphasize "ALLAH IS LOVE" and he is "more than love" he is "merciful." Thank you. I respect that.

Please -- I am not trying to trick you or make fun of you. Since "ALLAH IS LOVE" would you then say that love is a characteristic of his nature. Is it ever possible for god to not love man? It is a yes or no question but I'm happy with anything you'd like to say.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

BookBeam ,MY answer is God in both Chritianity and Islam love sinners and hate sin.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown You don't respect me and it doesn't reflect well on you.

Is god's nature confined - held prisoner - by your characterization: "ALLAH IS LOVE?"

Why don't you want to answer this?

I think it is because you know perfectly well that the answer doesn't play well. It's pretty to think that "ALLAH IS LOVE." But the truth is sometimes "ALLAH IS HATE" Isn't that true? You said as much. That's why you dance around the essential question.

Now you will dump a 400 lines of scripture to cover this up and tell us how bad Christians are. Isn't that right?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@BookBeam,I ALREADY ANSWERED YOU .Go and read my comment under which you commented"Maybe you did answer but I came late "if you dont have that plenty of time to read all "6,000 lines of nonsensical ramblings" as Mr Whatsreal stated,it s your own business.you can take your own time to digest what was written and then ask me,that s how things go and dont make me feel like i m a big fish in a small pond.


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown Yes. You did answer. You don't think it is possible for man to understand the nature of god. You said that clearly.

You don't want to say that "ALLAH IS HATE" but don't deny it either. You believe it certainly as much as you believe "ALLAH IS LOVE."

Those Greeks in Asia Minor 2000 years ago, willingly embrace Jesus who tells us that god is in love with man. Not that love is some manifestation of an inscrutable will. It might all be a lie. But that is the essential distinction. You should learn to respect it.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Bookbeam,you see you said"GREEKS",it was easy for them to follow paganism-incarnate-paulinism


bookbeam 4 years ago

@revengadown

Yes, easy to accept a god constrained to love man. They needed to understand - being Greeks of course (some were Jews as you know).

The Muslim doesn't have to understand the person of god at all - in fact cannot know god - you've tried to hide this from us but we know it's true.

The Muslim only has to be shown Allah's will. The Muslim doesn't have the right to wonder about god's motivation. The Muslim only has to act on god's inscrutable desire. Right?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Bookbeam,Greek mind is full of gods marrying,cheating,conspiracing with each other,mythology.read this and dont turn ur eyes blind or give me any excuse.take your time to digest:)

The early Church confessed to the parallels between Christianity and paganism. The famous apologist Justin Martyr (d. 150 CE) said the Eucharist was practiced before Christianity existed.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated [it] in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

here are many confessions by the Church fathers; even Christian scholars cannot deny the testimonies. We have provided the quotations below, and the sources confirm it.

Examine carefully the sacrilegious beauties of your Lentuli and Hostii; now, is it the players or your gods who become the objects of your mirth in their tricks and jokes? Then, again, with what pleasure do you take up the literature of the stage, which describes all the foul conduct of the gods! Their majesty is defiled in your presence in some unchaste body. The mask of some deity, at your will, covers some infamous paltry head. The Sun mourns for the death of his son by a lightning-flash amid your rude rejoicing. (Tertullian of Carthage, Ad Nationes,

Be well assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, AND HAVING DIED, HE ROSE AGAIN, AND ASCENDED TO HEAVEN; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that the devil has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and traveled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when the devil brings forward Asclepius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? . . . And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words? (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Tryph

When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." [First Apology, ch. Xxi

Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? (Tertullian of Carthage, Ad Nationes,

Tertullian condemns the Western Christians for worshipping towards the East, and praying on Sunday, or Sun-day. The Church leader Polycarp (d. 159 CE) rejected the celebration of Easter on Sunday, because he knew it was pagan. Constantine changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to commemorate the day of the sun-god (325 CE). The doctrine of trinity was also developed at this time.

In fact, Constantine borrowed the trinity from the pagans. The Romans, the Egyptians, and the Hindus believed in ‘trinity’ before Christianity existed.

When the Council of Nicea took place, the Emperor Constantine

Declared the Roman Sun-day to be the Christian Sabbath

Adopted the traditional birthday of the Sun-god, and the twenty-fifth of December, as the birthday of Jesus;

Borrowed the emblem of the Sun-god, the cross of light, to be the emblem of Christianity;

And, although the statue of Jesus replaced the idol of the Sun-god, decided to incorporate all the ceremonies which were performed at the Sub-gods birthday celebrations into their own ceremonies.

(Jesus, The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Rahim, pp.101)

Islam has destroyed the false charges brought against Jesus, and cleaned his image. The Jews regard him as a false prophet, Christians over-praise him as the “Son of God”, yet the Islamic version of Jesus is absolutely true. Muslims believe that Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger of God, the Christ, but he was not “God-incarnate” or the “Son of God”.

The scholar Kersey Graves exposes the pagan title “son of God”, which originated from the pagan cults.

The various deific titles applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament are regarded by some Christian writers as presumptive evidence of his divinity. But the argument proves too much for the case; as we find the proof in history that many other beings, whom Christians regard as men, were honored and addressed by the same titles, such as God, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Mediator, Messiah, etc.

The Hindoo Chrishna, more than two thousand years ago, was prayerfully worshiped as "God the Most High." His disciple Amarca once addressed him thus: "Thou art the Lord of all things, the God of the universe, the emblem of mercy, the bestower of salvation. Be propitious O most High God," etc. Here he is addressed both as Lord and God. He is also styled "God of Gods."

Adonis of Greece was addressed as "God Supreme," and Osiris of Egypt as "the Lord of Life." In Phrygia, it was "Lord Atys," as Christians say, "Lord Jesus Christ." Narayan of Bermuda was styled the " Holy Living God."

The title "Son of God" was so common in nearly all religious countries as to excite but little awe or attention.

St. Basil says, "Every uncommonly good man was called ,the Son of God.'" The "Asiatic Research" says, "The Tamulese adored a divine Son of God," and Thor of the Scandinavians was denominated "the first-born Son of God;" and so was Chrishna of India, and other demigods.

It requires, therefore, a wide stretch of faith to believe that Jesus Christ was in any peculiar sense "the Son of God," because so denominated, or "the only begotten Son of God," when so many others are reported in history bearing that title. (Kersey Graves, The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors,


Saleej Va profile image

Saleej Va 4 years ago

"When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance? The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom." (Al-Qur'an 2:170-171)

Pride, arrogance and obstinacy make some people oblivious to truth and they shut down their ability to analyse and reason but I hope and pray that others like Michele who at least attempt to gain knowledge of what was passed down to them be guided unto the straight path. Good work Revengadown. Peace be unto all of you.

"Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path." (Al - Qur'an 5 : 16)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Saleej Va thank you for your comment. Some think that revengadown was nasty, you know that was not true. As you know he has taught me much about the Qu'ran. I am still trying to learn more about our Christian bible.

Peace be with also.

Michele


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown can you please tell me if any of The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors, ever rose from the dead?


randslam profile image

randslam 4 years ago from Kelowna, British Columbia

Many believe the beginning of the biblical text as Genesis 1:1, but in chronological order of time one should start at John 1:1, however, the veracity of the biblical text could be called into question, just as the Qu'ran, due to "interpretations" of each text and the veracity of them actually being "the words of God or Allah" at all.

The constructs of going to heaven or hell are not seen in the literal interpretation of the present King James, or any other version, of the Bible. Dante's Comedie created this mythology of "eternal damnation," where the bible simply indicates humans returning to the clay from which they were fashioned.

Modern Christianity is a result of paganism being brought into practice to alleviate dissent--Constantine was a pagan emperor until his deathbed conversion to the construct of Christianity in his day--he didn't want to rid himself of several wives.

The battle of Light versus Darkness have been a mortal conflict from the earliest of times...light brought heat and vision where darkness brought fear and blindness...simple concepts that we have twisted into the present multiple world views of spirit and mortal today.

As witnessed by your comment section, this argument has persisted from the beginning and will not be concluded any time soon...lest it be with the return of an "immortal" that would have to physically present the world with conclusive evidence of one form of belief or another.

It is a mystery...and one that won't be concluded realistically, but by the fanatics who often wish to put their own brand of zealous fervour on the rest of humanity--a very boring end game--in truth.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hi randslam, I do think it is going to end soon. I have only been polite to people, except asking about the 16 Crucified Saviors. But, that will probably not be answered. So, how long can a hub like this just stay here?


nasake profile image

nasake 4 years ago from England

I read an original letter from Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus on his departure to England dated 17th June 601, clearly stating that they must not rip down pagan temples, for good temples should be put to "our" advantage, and we should instead destroy their idols and replace them with imagery of the true God. And the English are a stubborn bunch, so we will fashion our religious days around the times of their festivities so that we can get them to attend the churches on these days, slowly converting them towards the true God. I'm afraid, that Pagans and Christians celebrating at similar times of the year is no accident at all. It's all too easy to forget that Christianity is in its youth, and desperately wanted the world to convert, and so things were put in place that aren't very nice. But alas, mistakes happen, and that is all in a past way to distant for any of us to suffer from. In all honesty I'm just happy that there is a new level of acceptance between these two faiths, being that alot of the two are so similar in so many ways.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,there is a book written by kersy Graves called The world's sixteen saviors crucified.The book cites many examples of saviors who- existed in some ancient and oriental cultures -descended from heaven to relieve people from their depressed state, and to improve their condition.What is important is that Graves asserts that Jesus was a man but Paul transformed him to legend and myth by borrowing the idea "son of GOD or GOD in carnate" from those cultures,that s why I think when he went to Jersalim to preach his doctrin,he was laughed at and expelled from the synagogue while in the contrast he was warmly accepted in Asia Minor as whatsreal stated .the book Acts demonstrates that Paul was preaching very similar doctrines to the pagans. They professed to believe in the blood sacrifice (crucifixion) and resurrection of their own god-men before Paul had arrived, as the following passage indicates:

Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”

Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,

And the Gentiles already knew the stories of dying and rising gods before Paul came to them, he was only recycling the legends of the Mystery Religions.

“The divine teacher is called, is tested by the “adversary”, gathers disciples, heals the sick, preaches the Good News about God’s kingdom, finally runs afoul of his bitter enemies, suffers, dies, and is resurrected after three days. This is the total pattern of the sun god in all the ancient dramas”. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, p. 145)

“A true Jew would have immediately recognized the teaching of Jesus as a reaffirmation of what Moses had taught. But to many a pagan, it must have seemed new and strange and perhaps a little complicated. Most of the pagans still believed in a multitude of gods who, it was thought, mixed freely with human beings, mated with them, and took part in every sphere of human life. To the common people of Greece, any description of Jesus must have seemed like a description of one of their gods, and they were probably quite ready to accept Jesus in this capacity. There was always room for one more god. However, the actual teaching of Jesus negated all their gods, since it affirmed the Divine Unity”. (Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Jesus: Prophet of Islam 1992 edition, p. 62)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

After he died he was taken off the cross and put into a cave. Then three days later a woman ( remember the men were still hiding) found the cave to be empty and the large stone that had been placed in front of the cave had been rolled away from the cave.

We know this resurrection is true because of the way it was written. Back in those days women were not like men. Women had no power. So, why would a woman be the first one to see Jesus risen from the dead?

If this was just a story, a man would have been the first one to Jesus rise from the dead.

After they had seen Jesus, they came out of hiding and allowed themselves to be killed, crucified, and burned, they would refused to give His teachings.

Not only did He rise from the dead, he stayed on the earth and was seen by many people.

If he had not risen, then the men who had hidden would have stayed in their hiding place. Then slowly walked away. But, they saw him after he rose from the dead. The saw him and knew it was true. We know it was true, because

1) A woman was the first to see He had risen.

2) His followers came out of hiding, and laid down their lives for him, because they knew he is the Son of God


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Well,you depond on the John s Gosple story but other Gosples have different stories.for example, Gospel of Matthew (28:1-20) Mary Magedalen was accompanied to the tomb by another woman who was identified as "the other Mary". After these two women reach the tomb, they see an angel who says that Jesus has risen and isn't there. The angel then instructs them to tell the male disciples that they can see Jesus in Galilee. The two women hurry off to find the male disciples, but on the way they suddenly encounter Jesus himself. He says, "Greetings", and they fall at his feet and worship him.

Thus, according to this account, Mary Magdalene and another woman also named Mary were the first eyewitnesses to the resurrection. This gospel doesn't describe any other encounters with Jesus in the vicinity of Jerusalem. But it says that the male disciples went to Galilee, (as the angel had instructed), and saw Jesus there.

Gospel of Luke (24:1-35)

According to this gospel, several women accompanied Mary Magdalene on her visit to the tomb, including Joanna and Mary the mother of James. After the women find the tomb empty, they suddenly see two men in shining garments standing next to them. These two men tell them that Jesus has risen and left.nobody saw Jesus during initial visit to the tomb But later two of his followers do encounter him during a trip from Jerusalem to a village named Emmaus. One of these followers is named Cleopas, but the other one isn't identified. As they walk toward the village, Jesus joins them and begins talking with them, but they don't recognize him. After they reach the village, they all decide to have dinner together. During the meal the two travelers suddenly recognize their companion as Jesus, but he immediately vanishes from their sight. They then hurry back to Jerusalem to tell everyone what happened. When they arrive, they find the disciples gathered together talking, and saying that Jesus is alive and has appeared to Peter, though nothing is said about where or when this appearance to Peter took place. this gospel isn't clear about who saw Jesus first. It could have been the two men who encountered him during the trip to the village, but initially didn't recognize him. Or it could have been Peter, who in the meantime had told the other disciples about an encounter of his own. In either case, this account is inconsistent with those of John and Matthew because it indicates that none of the women saw Jesus near the tomb.

Gospel of Mark (16:1-20)

The oldest known manuscripts of this gospel don't describe any post-resurrection appearances of Jesus. Partly for this reason, many scholars believe that this gospel's original ending has been lost. Whatever the case, these oldest manuscripts stop abruptly at verse 16:8, right after the discovery of the empty tomb. In the last two verses Mary Magdalene and two other women are told that Jesus has risen and is on his way to Galilee, and that his followers can see him there. Thus, if the original ending was lost, the missing part most likely described at least one appearance in Galilee but none in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

Later scribes who made copies of this gospel realized that the original ending may have been lost, and several new endings were eventually invented to take its place. The ending chosen for most modern bibles consists of twelve verses (16:9-20) known as the "Longer Ending" or "Apocryphal Addition". This ending says that the risen Jesus made his first appearance to Mary Magdalene. But this was probably copied from John's account and thus is unlikely to be an independent source of information.

The possible loss of Mark's original ending is especially unfortunate, because many scholars think that it was the first New Testament gospel to be written.

First Corinthians (15:1-8)

In addition to what the gospels say, there is also an important passage about the resurrection in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. This passage (15:1-8) specifically says that the risen Jesus appeared first to Peter (who Paul calls Cephas), then to the other male disciples, and then to various other people.

Paul doesn't say where he got this information, but he did know Peter, and he also met some other disciples during his trips to Jerusalem. For this reason, and also because this letter to the Corinthians was probably written at least 15 years earlier than any of the gospels, some scholars think that it may be the most reliable source of information about the resurrection.

Many people find these different accounts to be confusing and inconsistent. Attempts have been made to reconcile them, but the effort necessarily involves loose interpretations and implausible arguments. Some of the difficulties may stem from the fact that the gospels probably weren't written until at least 35 years after the events, and by then most of the original witnesses were either dead or couldn't be located. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was written earlier, but it doesn't give any specific details about the appearances it mentions.

Paul specifically says that Peter was the first person to see the risen Jesus. Luke also indicates that Jesus might have appeared to Peter first. But neither account actually describes the appearance.

The accounts of an appearance to Mary Magdalene (and possibly another woman) are found in John and Matthew. Both gospels say that the appearance took place near the tomb, and both give some details about it. Although those details aren't consistent, the accounts could still be based on the same original story. It's possible that the other writers (Paul and Luke) had also heard this story, but intentionally excluded it from their accounts.

Why would Paul and Luke intentionally omit a story about an appearance to the women? Some scholars have suggested that they did so because women weren't considered to be reliable witnesses and you know what the Bible says about women in general! But another possibility is that Peter-this is Peter of Bible ‘s story not of the apocalypse s -wanted the story suppressed. By suppressing the story about the women, he would find it easier to get people to believe that the first appearance was to him, and this would enhance his status and reinforce his leadership role in the early community of believers.

Luke does say that women discovered the empty tomb. But then he indicates that they left it and went to the male disciples without ever seeing Jesus. To some people, this suggests that he had heard the full original story about the women, but intentionally omitted the part about their encounter with Jesus near the tomb.

However, if there was an attempt to suppress the story about the appearance to the women, it didn't succeed, and this could indicate just how important their role was. In fact, if judged by the amount of surviving detail, there is more evidence for an appearance to the women than for an appearance to Peter.

Note: According to the Catholic Church, the risen Jesus visited his mother Mary before he appeared to anyone else, to comfort her and let her know that he was alive. However, this is merely an assumption based on what he should have done. There is no mention of such a visit in the New Testament.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

I have a small notice since talking about crusifixion,if you read Hebrew chapter 9 something will puzzle you maybe,well it is

Hebrews 9:26

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

so note,Paul claims that Jesus' appearance and crucifixion is taking place in the end of the world, meaning in the end of time, the end of ages.

So hence we do seem to have a big problem here. How was it the end of the world in the time of Jesus' appearance and death as the Bible says? It has been a very long time since the crucifixion and appearance of Jesus, so how was it the end of the world back then, when several centuries have passed by and the world is still living on and has not come to an end.

In light of this, we can see that Paul is completely wrong regarding the timing of the end of the world, he believed that it was in the time of Jesus that it was the end of the world, obviously something which is not true. Therefore Paul is wrong, and since Paul is wrong, this then makes the Bible wrong, and since the Bible is wrong, then the Bible WHICH WAS WRITTEN BY those MEN is not the word of God, and since the Bible is not the word of God, Christians then follow a false book.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

OK, then what about the Dead Sea Scrolls and the "Crucified Messiah Scroll" This scroll was translated by Dr. Robert Eisenman, Professor of Middle East Religions of California State University. This scroll identified the ''Messiah'' as " The branch of David" and wrote he was pierced and wounded. The scroll also describes the "Messiah" ''the one who would suffer for the sins of his people''. This scroll also identified the ''Messiah as a '' leader of a community'' who "was" "put to death". This reference clearly points to Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was in the bible was from the line of David and He was put to death.

The "Son of God" Scroll. This scroll refers to the Messiah as "the Son of God" and "the Son of the Most High" these are exact wording in the Gospel of Luke.

These words were written about 2,000 years ago and were hidden in caves. They were left untouched by human hands. They wrote about a Messiah from a line of David who had been put to death, for the sins of his people. A Messiah who had been crucified. The Dead Sea Scrolls do not confirm that he rose from the dead, but if Jesus had not risen, wouldn't his followers have remained in hiding? But they did not remain in hiding. They allowed themselves to be killed for continuing to follow his word. Christianity would not have become what it is today. The most wonderful thing that happened, is that Jesus Christ allowed himself to be crucified for our sins, so that we could be forgiven.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

And what about archeology? Cities found that were named in the bible. One of them was the city of Dan. That is one that is very important. The city of Dan. It's name is on it. More places that were in the bible were found in the ground. The were in the bible, they were also in the earth,cover by soil. They are real.


no one 4 years ago

That does make sense to me. The Dead Sea Scrolls must be true. No one could have changed them, could they? If they had been hidden in caves two thousand years they must be the truth.


no one 4 years ago

revengadown if others had been crucified and rose from the dead, then why did the people who were in those religiosms not die for the peoples who had been crusifide?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@No One,well,first of all you seem you got me either wrong or you just skimmed through my comments above.when I said Saviors in ancient cultures I didn't mean they were real persons descended and ascended to Heaven.what I meant is that they were mythes and legends created by people to help them relieve their depressed states and to amiliorate thier conditions.Moreover,as you know humanity throught history created many fables to imaprt moral lesson.This is the original sense of fable but in a pejorative sense,a "fable" may be a deliberately invented or falsified account of an event or circumstance. Similarly, a non-authorial person who, wittingly or not, tells "tall tales," may be termed a "confabulator" wikipedia.so many confabulators told stories about things which are uncomprehensible in attempt to understand it.starting from the birth of Jesus till the his lifted-up by God,people created stories deponding on their minds,speculations,assumptions.some say son of God ,others God and others just left the scene and follow life and what it entails.

Asking about the victims of those fables or myths is not a proof or a measure by which we can judge the truthfulness of crucifixion of jesus. What we know thru revelations is that ALL believers in oneness of GOD were persecuted and tortured by pagans not the contrary plus there is no real evidence of the Romans persecuting Christians before at least 97 CE, and only sporadic periods of persecution even after that. Professor Keith Hopkins (A world full of gods: the Strange Triumph of Christianity) says that although in its early years Christianity was both illegal and at loggerheads with the state, it was largely ignored until the three purges of 250, 257 and 303- 311.

A Christian tradition holds that Nero persecuted the Christians living in Rome because he blamed them for the Great Fire, but historians have been unable to find any evidence of such persecution or even a reason for Nero to want to blame them unjustly. Earl Doherty says that the alleged persecution of Christians following the great fire in Nero's Rome was never mentioned by Christian commentators for the next several centuries.

When it occurred, persecution was usually because Christians Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians refused to worship the gods, thereby risking divine wrath. Some Romans felt that the gods could be appeased by punishing Christians who overtly refused to worship them. Sometimes emperors supported one side or the other for political reasons.

The fourth-century Christian Donatists refused to recognise the authority of the Roman emperor and his armies, and welcomed persecution. A splinter group, the Circumcellions, even attacked the temples of the pagan majority. After initially persecuting the Donatists on behalf of the orthodox Christians, Constantine ordered that they no longer be persecuted.

During the mid-fourth-century reign of Julian the Apostate, when the empire briefly returned to non-Christian rule, some Christians offerred themselves for martyrdom, but were refused. They were told that if they wanted to die, they should perform the act themselves.

From the late fourth century onwards, Christianity had become the official religion of Rome and was in a position to persecute pagans and Mithraists for not embracing new hybrid of paganism-paulinism. It seems that persecution does not choose its victims - whichever religion is more powerful at the time persecutes the less powerful.

In the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (peace be upon him) as one in three, as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."

Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.

Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written, "As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense, but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures". So another priest who was deny the trinity.

A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,it seems you just heard about Dead Sea Scrolls but not having enough informations about it,if you read wikipedia will give you full a genral idea about it.the informations they find in those caves are refutted by theoligians ,papyrologists and experts there are debate between them but if you read the informations that I got GOOGLE you may take general idea about it:

1) Some basic information regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls. “The Dead Sea scrolls comprise roughly 825-872 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea). The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they are practically the only known surviving Biblical documents written before AD 100.”

(From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls).

2) Pagan trintarian christian lies regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls. “Christian connections

Spanish Jesuit José O'Callaghan has argued that one fragment (7Q5) is a New Testament text from the Gospel of Mark, chapter 6, verses 52–53. In recent years this controversial assertion has been taken up again by German scholar Carsten Peter Thiede. A successful identification of this fragment as a passage from Mark would make it the earliest extant New Testament document, dating somewhere between AD 30 and 60. Opponents consider that the fragment is tiny and requires so much reconstruction (the only complete word in Greek is "???" = "and") that it could have come from a text other than Mark.”

(From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls).

Notice the lies of these pagan trintarian christian apologists such as José O’Callaghan and Carsten Peter Thiede. They have NOTHING to back their claims up with. There is NO WAY for them to connect the Dead Sea Scrolls to their Corrupted New Testament. The fragment called (7Q5) is TINY and requires TONS of reconstruction. It evens tells us that the ONLY word in Greek is the Greek word for “and”. That COULD have come from ALMOST ANYTHING!

3) More LIES about the Dead Sea Scrolls pagan christians attempt to use.

Here’s some great information; “Fundamentalists often look to the Dead Sea Scrolls to confirm the accuracy of the Bible. You hear an awful lot about how the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed the book of Isaiah.

The accuracy of the book of Isaiah makes for an impressive argument for "passing the text without error." However, Biblicists have diligently ignored the findings in cave Qumran 4. In Qumran cave 4, they found 157 fragmentary biblical texts. Among these fragments was every book of the Hebrew canon except Esther and Nehemiah (which scholars considered to as one book with Ezra at the time).

In some cases (significantly in 1-2 Samuel, Jeremiah, and Exodus), the fragments show a recession of biblical books that are different from the Masoretic tradition. They found a shorter form of Jeremiah in Hebrew, only known before in the Greek version in the Septuagint. It has becomes clear to Biblical scholars studying the Dead Sea Scrolls that most of the Masoretic tradition is a Palestinian rewording of the book.

Another fragment found at Qumran 4 is a paleo-Hebrew script dated in the early second century BCE. On the fragment is an expanded form of Exodus previously only known in Samaritan writings.

Biblical inerrantists go out of their way to ignore the differences that true Biblical scholars have identified in Qumran cave 4. The findings in cave 4 put to rest the silly notion that scribes copied the manuscripts meticulously and scrupulously without making any mistakes. The fragments at Qumran show biblical scholars made many mistakes and textual alterations were deliberate with many insertions made.

Scholars knew before the discovery at Qumran that the Masoretic version of Jeremiah was significantly different from the Greek version in the Septuagint. There are entire sections of the Masoretic text that are missing from the Septuagint. The arrangement of many sections is different. Jeremiah 27:19-22, 33:14-26, 39:3-14, and 48:45-47 are examples of sections in the Masoretic version and some modern English versions, but are not in the Septuagint. Scholars have identified at least thirty differences in the arrangements. Another example is that chapter 25:15-38 in the Masoretic text is chapter 32 in the Septuagint and the Masoretic chapter 27:1-19 appears in chapter 34 of the Septuagint.

Apologists and biblical inerrantists explained away variations to errors in translation for many years. The discovery of Qumran, especially cave 4, has made this excuse impossible to defend. The number of variants discovered and identified, the discovery of the major discrepancies, and evidence of adding and subtracting at will by scribes, makes the claim that errors are translation issues a ridiculous claim.”

(From: http://www.alabamaatheist.org/awareness/questions/...


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7Q5 it contains some signs letters cant be wriiten here



revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

]Michele,as to history, some of the Old Testament has been shown to be historically correct by archeology. Writings and inscriptions in other cultures, and in the Holy Land, have confirmed events which are mentioned in the Bible. However, other events have been shown to be fictional or incorrect or in other words ABSURD. What biblicists who get so excited over archaeological discoveries which confirm aspects of the Bible apparently can't understand is that extrabiblical confirmation of some of the Bible does not constitute confirmation of all of the Bible.

Other parts of the Old Testament are not historical, but are literature, poetry,and myth,fiction.

The New Testament varies in its historicity as well. All of it was written down many years after the departure of jesus, and the four gospels often present completely different versions of the same event, Rashomon-style. Much of what is in the New Testament is not present in any other contemporaneous historical sources, including proof of the actual existence of Christ. And Revelations is the written down version of a dream that John, one of the gospels, had.

The letters which constitute a good part of the new testament were written after the departure of Jesus, by those building the church. Biblical scholars have shown that several of the letters attributed to Paul (who never met Christ), one of the church fathers, were either forgeries or misattributed.

What we know as the Bible was cobbled together under Constantine by a committee; many books then in circulation among Christians were left out. (Various churches even now disagree as to which books are canonical and which aren't.)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Let us look at what Allah Almighty said about Jesus peace be upon him:

"Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. (The Noble Quran, 19:34)"

"The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. (The Noble Quran, 3:59)"

"And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (The Noble Quran, 5:116)"

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. (The Noble Quran, 4:171)"

"Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. (The Noble Quran, 5:78)"

"The same religion has He established for you (i.e., Muhammad) as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (The Noble Quran, 42:13)"

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! (The Noble Quran, 2:87)"

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God. (The Noble Quran, 5:46)"

"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan. (The Noble Quran, 2:253)"

"Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)." (The Noble Quran, 2:136)"

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God; (The Noble Quran, 3:45)"

"When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (The Noble Quran, 3:52)"

"Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (The Noble Quran, 3:55)"

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (The Noble Quran, 4:157)"

"Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (The Noble Quran, 5:110)"

"Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith." (The Noble Quran, 5:112)"

"Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." (The Noble Quran, 5:114)"

"And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: (The Noble Quran, 6:85)"

"When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)! (The Noble Quran, 43:57)"

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (The Noble Quran, 43:61)"

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear God and obey me. (The Noble Quran, 43:63)"

"Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 57:27)"

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (The Noble Quran, 61:6)" Please visit Jesus mentioned Muhammad by the name in the Bible.

"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. (The Noble Quran, 61:14)"


no one 4 years ago

Michelle do not listed to revegnedown. He is lying to you. He only pretend to be nice to you. You only need to read your bible. Why do he lie? They all lie. He only pretend to be nice. He probably think your are stupid. I do not think you are stupid.


no one 4 years ago

Michelle revegndown give you too many words. That is being mean. That is why he thinks you stupid. He only pretend to be nice. Stop listening to him, you need to stop reading what he post. Only read what a Christian post. Only that, Only that!!!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

At least he spells my name correctly.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@no one,sorry this time I didn't write your first letters of your nickname in capital letters because you don't deserve it.It's better not to have a distinctive identity or seperate from zero and nothing.Anyway,your answer proves me one think you are beaten so hard and you don't have anything in your bag to offer.you are smouldered by pride to accept the facts.you asked me and I answered you but what I got IN RETURN is indecent words.Thanks:)but as bob marly says:befor pointing fingers to me make sure your hands are clean.it' s better to beat a hastyretreat and leave this place for people who seek truth.gGo and play in other places OR what about going to London ?there is a place in a garden where you can shout,curse who you want in the world no one will charge sth against you.Best wishes;)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Once again, at least he spells my name correctly.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown, it is taking me some time to read everything you wrote. Because, I do not want to just read it. I want to read it and then think about it. You know what I mean. To really understand something, you have to study. Not just read something. But, since you are a teacher you you REALLY know all about teaching people :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Michele,yes I know that and I need time too to gather comments to make them in hubs:)I have three now published and some others are in need of urgent finishing touches lol and from 23 April and on I will not have this plenty of time on computer I will be megabusy hehe


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I am very happy about that. I have read two of them. I wrote a little bit on them, but will still have to study more. You have given me the information kindly. You have not insulted me, and you have shown me where to find the information. So, I won't be on the computer very much either. I am thinking about buying a Qu'ran are they the same? Please forgive me if that is a stupid question. But, as you know, some of the bibles have slightly different translations.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

yes it is the same wherever you go in the world check this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reEwTkpbSh8


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you. If you don't mind, I might ask you questions from time to time.


no one 4 years ago

ok, I voted this hub down. You are doing the wrong thing. You need to be careful. You do not have to read the wrong thing. Please do not read the Koran. It is not the right thing to read. Michele.


no one 4 years ago

If you have questions you can ask me. I will answer. I can look them up. Then you will get the right answers. Just ask me ok?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

yes of course Michele, anytime .that would be my pleasure:)ALLAH WILL GUIDE YOU AND BLESS YOU INCHAALLAH


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

@revengadown--Luke 4:10-12---Might I point out that this passage consists of the devil (a liar from the beginning and the father of lies) quoting scripture out of context in order to tempt Jesus, and therefore is certainly not a definitive example of the New Testament refuting the divinity of Christ. The New Testament quoting a statement made by the tempter is not the same thing as agreeing with the tempter.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Josephum,you mean I am a devil and I am tempting Michele?


Mary 4 years ago

That will not last long. God will not allow the devil to continue to harm His followers on earth. Even though Jesus Christ told His followers that only God knew when the end of times would come. However, I do agree with Michele. Christians are not the only people God loves. God loves all the people He created. Why would God create people He did not love? revengadown even thought he calls God Allah, he seems to be faithful to God. He knows a lot about God. I read one of his hubs. Maybe you should also. He seems to be a good person. He studies the koran, or Quran. People who follow and have faith in God or Allah, and do not kill or harm other people are good people. I don't know everything, but I think he is ok. Michele and revengadown ( ok he knows a lot more then I do) but they seem like people who are nice. MIchele wrote a hub about God loving all people. I think that is true. Why would God make people He hatedd?


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

"Josephum,you mean I am a devil and I am tempting Michele?" No. I asked only what I asked.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

well ,in an other way,did you mean I take verses out of thier contexts??


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

@ Mary No God did not create people He hates. People sometimes ( not all of them) do things that are sinful. They follow the devil. So please continue to follow the path God created. Do not hate others. We are not allowed to judge others. That is one of the things Christians need to remember. " Judge not lest ye be judged"


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Mary,God says in Quran:"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)." (Surah 49, Verse 13).

This wonderful principle of Islam makes it clear that there is no single people, race, or nation that is better than others. God created us all equal. In God's eyes, the best of us are the most righteous and most kind.

God created mankind as different races and nations although He could have created us all with as one nation, with one language and one religion but He wanted to test us. so as to see what we are going to do However, as stated in the verse mentioned above, God created these different nations and tribes so that we get to know other each other, and not to hate each other because we are different. This tells us that we should celebrate our differences and not hate each other based on them. Islam also teaches us to realize that no single race or people have supremacy over others, and that we are judged solely based on our actions.

This verse also teaches us that we should live peacefully with other nations and tribes and we should respect each other and our differences. We should learn to live together and to get to know each other, and to engage in dialogue amongst all nations and treat every human being as being equal.


mary 4 years ago

revengadown I wish more people knew as much as you and Michele know. I have been reading this hub. I don't know a lot about the Qu'ran. But, what I thought of, when I was reading this hub, was how many people were being hateful when they were writing to you. There was one named 'no one' who seemed to have a lot of hate. Is a Christian supposed to have hate? I don't think so. You and Michele when writing to each other, seemed to me, to be explaing what you believed. That is what no one should have been taught. I think it is fine to teach someone what you have learned.


mary 4 years ago

There was also a tv show on called ' Muslims in America' I think that was the name, but it was so boring they had to take it off the air. People were not watching it. The Muslims were acting like ever one else. Taking care of their children, going to work. Washing dishes. The only thing they were not doing was beating wives, swearing. Things that make shows intersting.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Mary,you may know that the Media in USA is controlled by Jewish lobby,since the time they were in Arabia

,Medina ,they did their best to distort Islam's teachings.That tv show -sorry I ve never heard of it but I will look for it-maybe intends to provide a boring and distorted picture of Islam and its teachings.you know beating a woman is not a kind of chavalry and is not one of the commandments of Islam.In slam husbands are commanded to treat their wives with kindness and respect. In Al-Nissa(4)-19 we read:

"..But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein Allah has placed much good."

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

"The best believers are the best in conduct, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives."

when Muhammad (pbuh) first became the prophet of Islam, the Pagans of Arabia had inherited a similar disregard for woman as had been passed down among their Jewish and Christian neighbors.So disgraceful was it considered among them to be blessed with a female child that they would go so far as to bury this baby alive in order to avoid the disgrace associated with female children.

Through the teachings of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) put a swift and resounding end to this evil practice. Not only did he severely discourage and condemn this act but he also used to teach them to respect and cherish their daughters and mothers as partners and sources of salvation for the men of their family:

AbuSa'id al-Khudri narrated:

"The Prophet (pbuh) said: If anyone cares for three daughters, disciplines them, marries them, and does good by them, he will enter Paradise."

(Narrated by Abu-Dawood)

Abdullah the son of Abbas narrated:

"The Prophet (pbuh) said: If anyone has a female child, and does not bury her alive, or slight her, or prefer his male children over her, Allah will bring him into Paradise."

(Narrated by Abu-Dawood)

Muhammad (pbuh) is also sited in "Sahih Muslim" as saying:

"Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Day of Resurrection like this; and he joined his fingers".


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

WE Michele and I respect each others'beliefs and we talk as matures and responsibles.Some people here don't want us to discuss religious issues in a friendly way.They want to make this hub a space of insults and curses but thier plans are thwarted!


mary 4 years ago

Thank you for explaining this. This may sound strange, but I think the media is trying to tell us how to vote. I don't know. They only tell us part of the truth. Please don't laugh at me, but I still think no one is a little bit 'crazy' Michele wrote she was going to study the Qu'ran and you gave her a a link. I am going to look at that link also. I need to know more also. I don't want to be like people who just watch tv and believe everything they see on tv. What is wrong with looking at more then just tv?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

that s good news.Honestly,rarely to find people like you and Michele who seek the truth and want to know the others'beliefs.You know in the court judge listens to both sides,not just to one side so here people like to listen and believe only what thier national media says.Malcom X was taught Islam wrongly in usa by ELIJAH who claimed he was the prophet of Islam but when Malcom travelled to Mecca for Pelgrimage,He discovered the real teachings of ISLAM.This is his letter from Mecca:

ever have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this Ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca. I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad. I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat.

There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blonds to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white.

America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered 'white'--but the 'white' attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.

You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to re-arrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.

During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug)--while praying to the same God--with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions in the deeds of the 'white' Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.

We were truly all the same (brothers)--because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude.

I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man--and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color.

With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster--the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.

Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities--he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth--the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to.

Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a 'white' man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. ... Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors--honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King--not a Negro.

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

THat link is someone called khalid yassin speaks about QURAN .He was converted to Islam long time ago and he devoted his life for spreading of Islam.There is many videos in the right side,you can shoose some of them and listen and you can check someone called Ahmed deedat debating with Swaggart about is the Bible the word of God?they talked about many issues,it could help you somehow to see how we Muslims see the bible if you want links to listen to QUran here is one link:


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8P0Qa1YtY YOU CAN WRITE ON YOUTUBE JESUS IN QURAN you will get some information


mary 4 years ago

I have a very good friend who married a Muslim. They have three children. There is a time ( I am sorry, I forgot the name of this) when they don't eat until the sun goes down. Each time this happended she was going to have a baby. Her husband told her she did not have to do this. That Allah would not be angry. She had already converted. She told me that it was ok, with Allah for people who were going to have babies, or were sick, or were very old, did not have to do this. Well, not three years in a row, but each time anyway. She told me Allah was not an angry God. She also told me that the bombers were not following what Allah wanted. That Allah wanted love on the earth not hate.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

yes that month is called Ramadan,in Islam there is no compulsion or obligation “There is no compulsion in religion”

[al-Baqarah 2:256] those who claim that Islam feeds its followers hatred,prejedice towards unbelievers is not true .QURAN says: call people to the path of Allah with words of purity. Yet, believers know Allah guides to the right way (Surah Al-Qasas, 56), so after elucidating the truth they leave people to their own freedom of conscience. The contrary is out of the question, because trying to make someone Muslim by means of pressure, threat or force is primarily against the essence of Islam..

Allah is so merciful and tolerant.His compassion covers everything.God love sinners and hate sin,that s why he sent us messengers to guide us.Allah or God are the same and Islam in arabic means submission to God s power and will.All messengers were submitted to God or Allah and in Islam IF you DIFFERNTIATE between them your faith is under questions


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

"well ,in an other way,did you mean I take verses out of thier contexts??'

In regard to Luke 4:10-12, I did not say that YOU took the verse out of context. I pointed out that the verse was used by the tempter out of context. However, I believe you that you stated that this is an example of the New Testament refuting the doctrine of Incarnation--and I point out again that quoting the tempter is not the same thing as agreeing with the tempter, anymore than attempting to put words into another's mouth makes those words their own. How would you reply?


Felina Margetty profile image

Felina Margetty 4 years ago from New York, New York

As always your hub was true to the word, thought inspiring and well written. That is why I am a fan!. I won't be clicking the follow button for revengadown, I simply do not have the time! In addition Sunday prayer meetings are enough for me, we approach things one Psalm at a time. hehehehe. No offense Rev I know you are a passionate person and god bless you for that. F.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Josephumcarissimi,I like to be quoted,it makes me feel more confident and VIP.thanks.Now,let me return you the favor"anymore than attempting to put words into another's mouth makes those words their own"Tell me how do you feel?confident?right?VIP.Your first comment here,you quoted from the Gosple of luke to support what you said was true and indesputable.Why Mr?Because it's God s word,no no no stop it is not inspired, nor revealed by God, as Luke himself said:

Luke 1

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

This is from Luke chapter 1, verses 1 to 4. As we can see, Luke is not inspired by God nor receives any revelations from God, Luke simply says that it will be good for him to also write an account of things that happened, the things which are believed among the people. Also note Luke writes this Gospel simply for a man named Theophilus so that he believes in these things. So basically the Gospel of Luke was written addressed to one man, and simply a work of collecting quotes, and information from eye-witness accounts.

There is nothing inspired in Luke, nor is anything revealed from God unto Luke, Luke is simply making an account of how things happened. In fact the work Luke does here is very similar to the works of Bukhari and Muslim in how they collected and made volumes of hadiths(sayings of the Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him).They collected sayings of the prophet Muhammad from his companions and eye-witnesses, and also showed stories as told by eye-witnesses and so on. This is exactly as the Gospel of Luke, the only difference is that we do not call the hadiths the word of God, like Christians do with the Gospel of Luke.so,please stop quoting from a historical and manmade book which its author paid by man.Sorry,if I sound rude or tempter,I say things plainly without beating long about the bush.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Felina Margetty,It's okey,no problem.You are free ,no whining from me:)


klarawieck 4 years ago

Beautiful hub. Very well written and well documented. Thanks!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment Klarawieck. I appreciate it very much.


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 4 years ago from Alabama

All of thi info is good.. " for there is none good, save Jesus Christ. IN him we live and breathe and have our being..

I was going to write/ copy a poem, but now i am distracted to write this comment. haha

No, the word Trinity is not in the bible and probably a bad choice of mans to try to place it in religion. The oldest original interpretation was from the Gnostics, and filtered into the Orthodox faith through as someone here wrote, as a combining of Roman Pagan empire and its orthodox perhaps precatholic origin; Michelle, they did it to finish conquering the Jews. it was a political move to consolidate the Romans and the christians, and with one stroke of the pen, they became one, but the burden and curse of it was that they had to bring the trinity concept of three persons. pagans worshipped many Gods and it was impossible for them to accept the one true one. Yes there is father son and holy spirit, but that never did ever make there be three Gods. we all know that. also false is the illusion that man has (again it began back in the Gnostics day of an old grey haired fahter God in heaven, a younger man, hence Son, and a beautiful figure representing the Holy Ghost. Man has always tried to humanize a Wonderful God who only was human and in a human body once, that in Jesus Christ.. several times in the Bible it is written that Christ was hid in God. Jesus said the HOLY spirit would come forth from the father, but come in Jesus name. Jesus said this. God is a spirit and a spirit hath not flesh and bones. Man ( scholars of old even) made him into three seperate distinct persons with bodies, but the word of God does not support that. Isiaih (9:6) is the one scripture that identifies Christ in one sentence to anyone who asks of you " who Is Jesus?" it really is not any more complicated than that. if you want to pursue the trinity concept, which is taught as a core doctrine of many denominations, you have the problem of having a full grown Jesus standing in heaven beside a bodily formed Holy Spirit ( which denies that GOd is all in all and he is the eternal one and eternal spirit and creator and savior all wrapped up in one). One Lord and one babtism, one God and father of all , who in over all, through all and in you all. Jesus said plenty of times, I come forth from my father. Jesus was man and human of the flesh, but he was almighty eternal God of the spirit. one would be more correct in saying that the holy spirit existed in the old testament as the " wisdom of God," but the "son of God" was born in a manger.. he did not magically get shrunk from a bodily full grown son , but this was truly the birth of the savior. in 2 Cor. it mentions that one day he will surrender all power back to the father that God can be "all in all".. the sonship according to this actually has a specific earthly existence.. to redeem mankind. But never doubt as being diety he always will exist. His form will amaze us.. yes we may see the image of the dyeing savior when we get there, but he is also going to show uus his kingship and eternal splendor.. Get man and his terminology out of the picture and you have an easier job of understanding God jsut as he is.. God does reveal his indentity to those who seek him.. you do not have to call out to all three titles in every prayer, you just have to understand that when you say Jesus, You are saying God in Salvation. Yahweh, Jehovah, Yeshua. Jesus said of the Holy spirit in the first book of acts,.. I will send the comforter, the holy spirit, sho will lead you and guide you into all truth.. but if I go not away, the holy (ghost) cannot come.. now the holy ghost is somethin to talk about.. it is the manifestation of God by supernatural power into our lives.. not exactly like Jesus was as diety and human filled with holy power, but as newborn Children of God filled with divine power. we are made joint heirs with Jesus Christ.. his position , sacrifice and power was all to bring us together as a "body" with him as the Christ, to bring us unto God, made righteous in him, by his propitiation, forgiveness, and sanctification provided at Calvary. nothing too hard for those who are sincere to find out, he is a loving God. not "Gods"..


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

@revengadown--"you quoted from the Gosple of luke to support what you said was true and indesputable.Why Mr?Because it's God s word,no no no stop it is not inspired, nor revealed by God," While I appreciate your kindness in attempting to present arguments for me and attribute them to me as if they were my own, please be assured that this kindness is unnecessary.

I am delighted to see that we both agree on historicity of Gospel of Luke!However, I find it confusing that you seem to consider yourself free to quote from it while at the same time asking that I be denied this privilege. But for the sake of the discussion, I will agree to stop quoting it if you will do the same.

And perhaps you could make a certain matter clear to me; it seems to be your position that the Gospel of Luke (and presumably, other texts as well) is precluded from the possibility of Divine, inspired origin because it was addressed to one man from one man. Is this an accurate understanding on my part of your position?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Josephumcarissimi,If you read my previous comments,you wouldn't say the possibility of Divine.I believe that the Bible is inspired by GOD but the one you have today is not the GOD S WORD.It is corrupted and unreliable and mostly filled of manmade laws and fiction.In other word is the original muniscript is lost.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

You know there is great difference between "see" and "hear".In the court,the judge take the testimony of the one who sees things by his eyes rather than the one who just hears them.this is how things are testified in the court.In Arab culture,the eye is the symbol of the truth and the ear of illusion.


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

@revengadown--Corrupted in what way?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Oscarlites,The Bible's New Testament records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.now let's examin the definition of"son" from the Bible:

Now in Isaiah 9:6 " "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

It is quite unfortunate that in the old Jewish culture, people used to be named "Godly" names. This is quite misleading and deceiving to Christians when they try to define the deity of Jesus.

Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' " "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God". Christians claim that since the predicted Prophet's name (Jesus) will be called "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6-7, then therefore, he must be GOD Almighty Himself.

Also, let us look at John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." Ironically, Trinitarians from my personal experience with them rely on this verse (John 3:16) very heavily when trying to prove that Allah or Jehovah came down to earth to die for our sins. They claim that Jesus being God's unique son, makes him the only Son for God, which ultimately lead us to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus.

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...." Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac. Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac. The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion. The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible. So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

Let us look at Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!. Does this mean that Jehovah is Israel? Does it mean that we must worship Israel as Jehovah or Allah? Of course not !!!

Also, let us look at Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim in this verse means Israel. This verse is similar to Exodus 4:22.

Let us also look at Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had made him his begotten Son !!!.

Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"

Now let”s examin the spirit of God in the bible:

1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..." GOD Almighty has an evil spirit? Obviously not, it's only metaphoric as mentioned above.

1 Samuel 19:9 "But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp,..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD?!

1 Kings 22:22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a LYING spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

1 Kings 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

2 Chronicles 18:21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"

Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into

the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."

Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."

Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."

Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told

neither his father nor his mother what he had done."

Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."

Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."

1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."

1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."

1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."

1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."

Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."

So if Jesus is GOD because the Holy Spirit came upon him, then the others mentioned above should also be GOD Almighty too.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Josephumcarissimi,scientifically,historically authentically and contradictorily.


jfprussing 4 years ago

ATHEISM: A HEAVY BURDEN TO BEAR.

By Joe Prussing

Atheism is a hell of a burden. It’s hard. It takes faith, real effort, and some serious thought to believe in… well, nothing. Life is not so easy. It’s often complicated; and that includes the afterlife as well. But wait, you may be saying to yourself: it’s easy to believe in nothing. Any idiot can do that; and many do, I suppose. Perhaps atheists are just plain lazy then. Not so much in the physical sense (although they can be that, too) but rather, intellectually. It is almost as if they have no real curiosity, or interest, in anything outside their own immediate and finite world which, even with all their computers, telescopes, gizmos and gadgets they couldn’t begin to understand, explain, or even appreciate. So why bother?

It would seem that the true atheist, if he exists at all, is not only motivated by his own egocentrisms (which, by the way, he will deny all day on an autographed stack of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species and Carl Sagan’s grave) but by some deeper psychological need to justify his own non-belief, which is not only quite revealing but makes about as much sense as Stephen Hawkins’ ‘spontaneous generation’ theory and the infinity of space. Or perhaps he is driven by something a little more personal, more human, like his own self interests. Maybe he just wants to make a name for himself. Write a paper, or a book! Invent the better mouse trap, a faster computer, or come up with a cure for the common cold, AIDS, or Christopher Hitchens’ throat cancer. Why? So he can lounge around with his fellow altruists at the local Starbucks congratulating one another on just how brilliant they are? If nothing else, they will surely argue, it only goes to prove there is no God, simply because…well, because if there were a God, then he, she, or it (Hey, at least these loons are politically correct) certainly wouldn’t need such brilliant men and women like Richard Dawkins, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, Bill Mahar, and themselves to solve these monumental mysteries and prove that He doesn’t exist. What the atheist fails to realize, besides the simple fact that you cannot get something out of nothing, is the pure, unambiguous, unadulterated, unabridged, and universal Truth that God will not be ignored. Nor will He be mocked or measured. God does not change. But most of all, if the Bible teaches us anything: God cannot, and will not, be impressed. Just ask Job.

Atheists will also argue, quite forcefully I might add, that theirs is not a religion at all; and they would be wrong about that too. If pantheism is the worship of nature, then atheism is the worship of science; something Mister Darwin would surely have no problem with. As opposed to other major religions, however, atheism has very little to offer. Nothing! if you take them at their sanctimonious word and follow them to their logical and predictable end. Judaism (often referred to as the religion of the past, which, by the way is not necessarily a bad thing) at least has four thousand years of edification and some pretty interesting characters; Islam, the religion of the present, if you believe in the Arab Spring, has its seventy-two virgins, provided you kill enough infidels along the way to earn the Jihadist reward. And Christianity, which might be considered the faith of the future since it seems to have the best recruiting record and the most converts, has the Cross with its infinite possibilities and glorious implications. Of the four, atheism is probably the least tolerant, which may disqualify it from the start, at least from a political perspective. Yet it seems to meets all the criteria necessary to be considered a true religion as recognized by its faithful few. It is liberal to the core, of course, with socialism its chief aim and outcome; although for political expediency it all comes under the auspices of such modern titles as environmentalism, feminism, gay rights, animal rights, etc... Science, naturally, is the Holy Grail of atheism which will one day triumph by discovering all the answers, along with Big-foot, the missing link, Al Gore’s brain and Chaz Bono’s true sexual identity. With contempt for mankind in general and a collectively sustained guilty conscience, these self-anointed secular humanists claim to be no better, or worse, off than a single-celled protozoan at the bottom of a Petri-dish, insisting we are all equal, despite our humanity, while never-the-less acquiescing to their socialist brethren that some protozoan are more equal than others. Not only are atheists arrogant, egotistical, condescending, and lazy – they’re snobs, too; and quite hypocritical about it. Now that’s religion for you. That’s Orthodoxy!

And then there are the Evolutionists. The problem with Charles Darwin’s theory of course, other than just being a theory, is simply this: The fittest doesn’t always survive. Consider the dinosaur or the wooly mammoth, or Nietzsche for that matter. What’s not supposed to kill us doesn’t necessarily make us stronger. Sometimes, it actually does kill us; just like bad jokes, bad whiskey, jealous women – and politicians! Natural selection is not that selective; it may not even be natural. There are no fossil records, at least none that anthropologists can agree on with any amount of certitude, of a missing link or any other mutant freak of Nature in any of the species; at least not enough to validate the revolutionary claim at the core of the naturalists’ belief. It simply doesn’t exist, despite numerous attempts to either find or manufacture such a hybrid by those who would follow in the faulty footsteps of their fool-hearty master: a globe-trotting biologist whose legacy in life is to be remembered, and perhaps even loved, as ‘…the man who murdered God.’

If nothing else, and if science is of any use here, we are not evolving at all, but devolving, as proven by Darwin’s own empirical data which clearly suggests an increase number of mutations, where there should actually be, if the survival of the fittest and laws of natural selection apply, a decrease. That is precisely why we have so many separate and uniquely distinct individual species, and so few, if any, we can combine, and none of which can actually reproduce. In other words: there are no such things as monkey-men or mermaids (except in our own egotistical imagination) no matter how inviting, intriguing, or logical they may sound or appear. We are no more likely to come across one of these fantastic creatures any more than we are would ever come face to face with, say, a griffin, a sphinx, the fabled faun or fated unicorn, furry fish, or even the elusive elephant-bird for that matter; at least not genetically, and definitely not by natural selection. But we do have an abundance of species. Diversity, and not necessity, is perhaps the real mother of invention after all, and proof positive of God’s creative power. But the scientist and the theologian sometimes make for strange bedfellows. Philosophy and micro-biology don’t always mix; and neither does anthropology and metaphysics for that matter. They’re insoluble, I suppose, like oil and water, or religion and politics. Let’s just all agree, if we can agree on nothing else, that we’re mutually doomed to extinction, no matter what we are, or where we come from, and equally in need of Salvation.

Real scientists, not unlike real men and women, want and need real answers; not just theories and falsifiable evidence. And they’ll go anywhere to find them; to the ends of the earth, even outside of their own finite Universe if that’s what it takes. Atheists, on the other hand, are afraid of all that. It would take too much effort, too much time; besides, they have more important things to do, you know, like genetic and social engineering, aborting innocent babies, stem cell research, and saving mankind in general, along with the whales and the sea-turtles, while trying to convince the rest of us uneducated dolts in their own patronizing and magnanimous way just how smart they are and, moreover, how intellectually superior they are for knowing it. Never mind the fact that they ha


JosephumCarissimi profile image

JosephumCarissimi 4 years ago from Wisconsin, U.S.A

I see. I was not aware of this. Could you please cite the evidence for these things?


BecauseIloveyou profile image

BecauseIloveyou 4 years ago from PA USA

Whow! Revenge down I hope you write a book. I have more than 300 Muslim friends on my face book, but all I do is bring them the TRUTH of God= do not debate religion, since it is futile. I grew up atheist until I met the God of the universe as revealed in the Bible. I read Quran, since it is the fastest religion in the world= just as God said it would be, though he didn't mention Islam by name. I spend my life counseling people, who have been disillusioned with life and their religion. Since all religions are humanly inspired they can't bring solutions to human's problems, it matter's not if they are Christian Muslim or anything else. Just because you are passionate about your religion doesn't mean you are correct. Ar death you will find out the deception of religion and than it is too late. You can add me on face book Beate Smock or follow my blogs, when you recognize you need help with your religious life- meaning when you get disenchanted and disillusioned, because than is when God of the universe can pick up the pieces and help you to abundant life. No , I do NOT follow the Christian religion, I follow the risen savior Jesus Christ, who is very much alive and speaks for Himself. Wishing you well!


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 4 years ago from Alabama

all coming to the knowledge of truth....


BecauseIloveyou profile image

BecauseIloveyou 4 years ago from PA USA

Oscarlites: My sentiments exactly! There is only ONE GOD and ONE truth, which is ONLY found in ONE book: The Bible. However the truth is best found while we are still alive, since it is too late when we died.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@BecauseILoveyou,thanks so much I appreciate that;)this time I won't write long comment .I will only quote short words from Bernard Shaw,sorry Josephumcarrissimi ,you know why;)

George Bernard Shaw said if Muhammad (pbuh) is alive nowadays, he will solve the problems of the world while he is drinking a cup of tea.

in other place he said "...it would have been a better world if Paul had never been born."


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

to JosephOscarBecause "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Jesus pointed to the Arabs as the future race when he called them "another race." Even the New Testament supports this quote very well:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

You have to know one thing that the earth's population is around 7.0 billion people, half of which are far-eastern pagans. Not only that, but their pagan religions (buddhism, hinduism, shintos, etc...) date 1000s of years back. This means that many billions of humans have already been doomed in Hell because of their paganism. Yet, they are the majority!

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

By the way I am not an Arab;)


BecauseIloveyou profile image

BecauseIloveyou 4 years ago from PA USA

Revengadown: God gives us choice to believe TRUTH or whatever else we like to believe.I prefer TRUTH and as I said before: Religion is futile and I don't debate religion. You seem like a bright young man and I wish you well. I didn't think you were Arab. God bless you!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

My religion gives choice for unbelievers to accept or reject the truth.Only GOD who open the hearts to recieve the light of Islam,Not I.saying you dont debate religion is not an excuse ,we are born to worship GOd and spread His light to the world.first make sure that the ground you are standing is solide and then call people to stand with you on it.Religion is not personal thing or an errand or service but it s way of life.My ADVICE for you seek the truth,I M SURE You will find it.mybe i m not convincing but you can ask other people who knows better than me.First try to listen to QURAN , just try God probably will open your heart Amen


harmnone 4 years ago

Ms Travis, I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the word pagan. You will not appear pagan in the future.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Harmnone,what does it mean in your dictionary?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I already know what pagan means. What do you mean by " You will not appear pagan in the future"?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown I would also like to know what "You will not appear pagan in the future" means. What is Harmnone talking about?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

He mocked at you and he sould say "be" intead of " appear" like saying watch out your belief is kinda paganism not pure


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I agree with you revengadown, I did not mock pagans. This hub was simply a historical one. If one reads it, simply a historical account of how Constantine forced Pagans to become Christians.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Some people here are just good at throwing words,insults,offences.You know it s easy to destroy than to build.people who attend to have peeks here,should give evidences,proofs on which they build thier arguments or opinions.don't let people like this type to make you down.Keep writting,It s your own space,say what you like and what you want,if they don't like it ,they should creat thier own hubs and patrol it.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown that is true. This will not bother me. I do not think that one will write a hub. You and I will keep writing and respecting each other. You are intelligent, and do not insult. I have seen many insult you, but all you do is quote what has been written hundreds of years ago. There is nothing wrong with that. What many should people know ( especially Christians ) is "Thou shall not judge, lest ye be judged" That make sense to me.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

A true believer is the one who never scoffs at others or calls them names, or utters vulgar and obscene phrases as the The prophet Mohamed peace be upon him said.we are taught to turn deaf ears to those who insult us and to treat them in kindness and respect.To judge is a bad character,we have to learn to live in peace and help us others.God himself didnt want to make us one nation,one race,one language and religion.It s His wisdom AND He knows better than we do.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

You are very correct. It is too bad so many people do not agree. What amazes me about you, is you are kind even to the people who insult you. You are a true follower of Allah.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Thanks Michele but u r more nicer or let s say the nicest one here


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 4 years ago from Alabama

yeah.. some should get there own life , and not live vicariously in others.. give others a chance.. I mean.. does that make sense anyone? sincerely? well its your hub, michelle, so you can choose what you like and want .. 3 cheers...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I have no idea what you are writing (talking ) about. Are you sure you are on the right hub? Choose what I like? I like pizza, RC, Cookies, hate beer, that is what they usually say with 3 cheers :) anyway have a nice day.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

I was waiting what would you say about that comment.me too I didn't understand it, sry OSCARITES i mean no offence.It looks like a telegraph


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Just checking out my hubs. I have been busy the last few days. I also meant no offense, just did not understand it.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

I know Michele,dont worry I understand.Take your time,soon I will be gone too hehe 23 apr is upcoming greeeeeeeeeeeeee


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

What is April 23rd?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

hehe going back to work:(


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Well I hope you had a nice vacation :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

thanx anyway,I will have an other one soon hehe i mean summer holiday :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That will be good. Teachers do work hard.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

kids need special care and attention and that drains me out hehe


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Very true. But, it is good that you are not one of the cruel ones. There are some cruel ones, they can harm children. They are horrible. I don't mean they beat children, but they make children feel bad. That is the worst a teacher can do. Those are the worst teachers.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

yeah very true,when I was a little,many times I was beaten so hard by some psychotic teachers.But thank GOD things are not like befor.Nowadays kids have their own right.a friend of mine once told me if he met one of his teachers,he would kill him because my friend had a problem when he came to pronounce certain letters.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

now sory to cut in,I ve to go out,i v some friends to meet.have good day!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

by the way there is a new hub tah tah


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sorry was gone, will explain later, hope you have a good day. tah tah :) looking forward to the new hub.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

I m back


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 4 years ago from Alabama

sorry./. I guess I was a littel random in my comment.. it was kind of a reply to someone comment they had made... i didn't mean any personal directive,, :) yes.. a beautiful day.. hard work all week,and now to catch up on the weekend!!


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

I have to say that being George I don’t quite agree with you Michele.

What happend to make pagans become Christians?

“St.George the great martyr.

Saint George was born to a Christian noble family in Nicomedia, during the late third century between about 275 AD and 285 AD, and he died in Lydda, Palestine.

His father, Geronzio (Latin Gerontius), was a Roman army official from Cappadocia and his mother was from Palestine. They were both Christians and from noble families of Anici, so by this the child was raised with Christian beliefs.

They decided to call him George, meaning "worker of the land". At the age of 14, George lost his father; a few years later, George's mother, Policronia (Polychronia), died.

Eastern accounts give the names of his parents as Anastasius and Theobaste.

Then George decided to go to Nicomedeia, the imperial city of that time, and present himself to Emperor Diocletian to apply for a career as a soldier. Diocletian welcomed him with open arms, as he had known his father, Geronzio—one of his finest soldiers.

By his late 20s, George was promoted to the rank of Tribunus and stationed as an imperial guard of the Emperor at Nicomedeia.

In the year AD 302, Diocletian (influenced by Galerius) issued an edict that every Christian soldier in the army should be arrested and every other soldier should offer a sacrifice to the Pagan gods. But George objected and with the courage of his faith approached the Emperor and ruler.

Diocletian was upset, not wanting to lose his best Tribune and the son of his best official, Geronzio. George loudly renounced the Emperor's edict, and in front of his fellow soldiers and Tribunes he claimed himself to be a Christian and declared his worship of Jesus Christ.

Diocletian attempted to convert George, even offering gifts of land, money and slaves if he made a sacrifice to the Pagan gods. The Emperor made many offers, but George never accepted.

Recognizing the futility of his efforts, Diocletian was left with no choice but to have him executed for his refusal. Before the execution George gave his wealth to the poor and prepared himself.

After various torture sessions, including laceration on a wheel of swords in which he was resuscitated three times, George was executed by decapitation before Nicomedia's city wall, on April 23, 303.

A witness of his suffering convinced Empress Alexandra and Athanasius, a pagan priest, to become Christians as well, and so they joined George in martyrdom.

His body was returned to Lydda for burial, where Christians soon came to honour him as a martyr.”

Empress Alexandra had greatly influenced Constantine's mother Helena (a Bithynian Greek).

“Constantine is perhaps best known for being the first Christian Roman emperor.

In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression. This removed penalties for professing Christianity (under which many had been martyred in persecutions of Christians) and returned confiscated Church property.

The edict protected from religious persecution not only Christians but all religions, allowing anyone to worship whichever deity they chose.

According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone.

Throughout his rule, Constantine supported the Church financially, built basilicas, granted privileges to clergy (e.g. exemption from certain taxes), promoted Christians to high office, and returned property confiscated during the Diocletianic persecution.

His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and Old Saint Peter's Basilica.

Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Sagittaruis,you havn't told us in what George believe.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Oscarlites Please accept my apology. I hope you have a great weekend :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revendadown, hope you had a good evening. You don't have much more time...lol


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Saggittarius, what you just wrote is very minimal. George is not even mentioned in the site you gave us. Please look at the large reason, not just the tiny details.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele, thanks for Hub. In my understanding Emperor Constantine was not Christian. He was being baptized on the dead bed. He seen that there are already many Christians and Romans could not kill all. It was not practical and economical. Constantine did not make Roman Empire Christian Empire, but made equality between pagan and Christians. *** The Trinity is not pagan's. It existed already in Matthew Gospel and others and in Apostle Creed, oldest writings after Bible was completed. Is Jesus Son of God or not? Is Holy Spirit part of God? You shall have not other Gods is not referring about nature of God but God versus gods of pagans surrounded Israel. Hopefully I place light on this matter.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vladimir, thank you for your comment. It is true. Constantine did not convert until being baptized on his death bed. Sorry for not putting that into my hub. It was an important thing, and I should have done so. Jesus is the Son of God, but as you do know in Revelation Jesus sits on the throne on the right side of God His Father. Please allow me some on the Trinity.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadown, you have to admit that there is something extraordinary about Prophet Essa, known to Christians as Jesus, Christ, Emanuel....

Let me ask you something, how many prophets of Islam do you know who:

1) Were born of virgin

2) Never died

3) Are now in heven

4) “Will return and judge mankind with justice”. 

Prophet Muhammad had prophesised that Essa will return and judge mankind with justice. 

"He will descend by the white minaretin the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches the gate of Ludd (present-day Israel), where he will kill him."

 Prophet Essa was Son of God (Son = Word), but also Son of Man. In fact, Essa's favorite way to talk about Himself was "the Son of Man".

BTW Revengadown, I know that Jirjis is the Arabic way of saying George. If some Muslims are named Jirjis it is because Muslim legend describes St George as a good prophet who came again and again after martyrdoms to improve the lot of humanity.

An account of prophet Jirjis

 

"Ibn Babawayh and al-Qutb al-Rawandi have with documentation, narrated from Ibn ‘Abbas that Allah appointed Jirjis as his Messenger and sent him to the king of Syria called Kooraazaanaa and who was worshipping an idol. Jirjis told him: O king! Accept my counsel. It is unbecoming for us to worship anything or anyone except only one Allah and to ask any of our needs from others except Almighty Allah.

 

The king asked: Where are you from? He replied, “I am from Rome (Byzantine) and live in Palestine. Then the king retorted: You are under arrest. He had his holy body scorched with an iron comb so much so that his entire flesh was torn out, then vinegar was poured on his body and his body was rubbed with a harsh cloth. Then the king ordered that his body should be burnt (stamped) with red hot iron bars. When the Prophet still remained alive despite all this torture, large iron nails were prepared and hammered in his holy head so that his brain drained out. Thereafter molten lead was poured on him. There was an iron pillar in his prison which required eighteen men to shift from one place to another. That pillar was put on the belly of that holy person.....

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol1-allama...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vladimir, I have been looking up Trinity on the web and keep getting site that say it is true, and sites that say it is false. Sorry, I truly do not understand this concept. Then I see site that say the Trinity is Pagan, and site that say the Trinity is not Pagan. So, all I get is confusion. A christian that doesn't understand.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It's worth pausing here to remark that the early followers of Jesus believed in Jesus peace be upon him as a messenger of God not as God or Son of God.They were Ebonites,Corinthians,Basilidians, Capocratians, and Hypisistarians .They never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the Trinity and also Constintine wasn't interested in Religion at all as much as he was interested in how to keep The Roman empire strong and united that s why he decided to "unify" the Christians under one "Canon" -modern New Testaments with all of their current variations and conflicting versions- they were so divided among each others as to who Jesus really was and what really happened to him! Take for instance the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas but he banned other Gosples like the apocalypse of Peter which was written by his hand not by mysterious men,in mysterious dates and places.His Apocalypse was widely accepted by followers of Jesus during the anterior Roman Emperors and the Gosple of Mary Magedalene which was rejected and banned also because women were regarded as snares , sentinels of hell,deceivers and temptresses and because they get jealous of her .The Gospel of Philip explicitly said Jesus kissed Mary Magdalene in the mouth, making the disciples jealous of her and in Other gospels which they were discovered in Nag Hammadi in Southern Egypt in 1945,which affirmed that Jesus Kissed her.this is what they found but unfortunately were attacked by ants. In this Gospel, the ants made a hole in a very crucial place.

The text says:

And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her [...]. The rest of the disciples [...]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness."

Unfairly,those Gosples never received as much public attention as the Dead Sea Scrolls, these actually turn out to be much more important for writing the history of early Christianity. They are a cache of Christian texts. The Nag Hammadi texts tell us about early Christians. They were written in Coptic, the language of early Christian Egypt. As most ancient Christian texts have been lost, this discovery was exceptional. The discovery includes the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip and the Acts of Peter. None of these texts were included in the Bible, because the content didn't conform to Christian doctrine, and they're referred to as apocryphal. They tend to concentrate on things that one doesn't read about in the Bible. For example, New Testament gospels says after the resurrection Jesus spent some time talking with the disciples, but you don't learn much about what he said. In the gospels of Nag Hammadi you can read what he said.texts also spoke of the intimate relationship between her and Jesus, even referring to her as his "beloved."

Her importance was shown by her presence in major events of Jesus' life. She anointed his feet with a costly perfume, an act the disciples tried to stop but which Jesus allowed, making him live up to the title the Messiah, the "Annointed One."


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele, Christianity was booming long before Constantine became Roman Emperor.

Hadrian was the 14th Emperor of the Roman Empire,

he reign from 10 August 117  to 10 July 138.

Historians list him as one of 'the five good emperors.' 

He was a great builder, merciful in many of his judgments.

Hadrian was protector and promotor of Christianity and demanded due process of law for Christians.

In a letter to Minucius Fundanus, Hadrian wrote:

"...I have received a letter written to me by His Excellency Scrennius Granianus, your predecessor. it is not my intention to leave the matter uninvestigated, for fear of causing the men embarrassment and abetting the informers in their mischiefmaking. If then the provincial can so clearly establish their cam against Christians that they can sustain it in a court of law, let them resort to this procedure only, and not rely on petitions and mcre clamor. Much the most satisfactory course, if anyone should wish to prosecute, is for you to decide the matter. So if someone prosecutes them and proves them guilty of any UlegaEty, you must pronounce sentence according to the seriousness of the offense. But  if anyone starts such proceedings in the hope of financial award, then for goodness sake arrest him for his shabby trick, and see that he gets his deserts" (History of the Church by Eusebius).

Hadrian also issued edict allowing Jewish Christians to enter Jerusalem, and elevated Christianity to be beyond a mere sect of Judaism.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele, thanks for response. I always say we cannot understand great God with our little brain. The true is the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I usually joke penicilin is not in the bible and we use it. But God is the family. He has the Son am I not right? (And now - us sons and daughter). The Trinity or Triunity is attempt to explain what is in the Bible. It does not have to be labeled as pagans. See everything has trinity, family, cell, H2O, tree, house, atom, man:(spirit, soul and body)...

In agape love. Vlad


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Keep Hubbing Michele.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadown, I see you have good knowledge of your faith and you are open minded individual.

May I ask you a question?

Do you see what I see in the Quran?

Are there two Prophets in Quran called by the name Isa/Essa?

One, Prophet Isa/Essa, which I believe is the son of Prophet Isaac ( Sura 2 : 136 or Surach 4 : 163), and the second Prophet Isa/Essa, usually called with addition – son of Mary.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Sagittaruis,well,that Hadith or narration is weak.It s what we called in "israeliyat" which was invented by some malicious people who wanted to destroy Islam.I guess you know what does it mean "Israeliyat" right?or I m mistaken?.Many narrations are written by mysterious and malicious people and ascribed them to some wellknown narrators of Prophet peace be upon him s sayings. In order not to fall into the temptation of taking all that is found in the works of Hadith as being authentic or genuine. Hadith at all times must be evaluated by the well-established rules of validation as established by the great scholars. Such firm criteria include the following: If a certain hadith is contrary to the well-established principles of the Qur’an or sound reason, it must be rejected (since, obviously, it cannot be authentic.)You should read a lot and a lot about islamic history.Ibn Babawayh and al-Qutb al-Rawandi are Shi'a sect like Iranian understanding of Islam.they are lost people.some of them denied the Prophet peace be upon him and some other said that Gibriel made a mistake when he sent down God's word the prophet peace be upon him because he was sent ,as they said, to Ali,his cousin.and they cursed also the the third caliphs of muslims:Abo bakr,Omar and Othman.Morever,Al-Rawandi “was an early skeptic of Islam and a critic of religion in general. In his early days he was a Mutazilite scholar, but after rejecting the Mutazilite doctrine he adhered to Shia Islam for a brief period and later became a freethinker who repudiated Islam and revealed religion-which means he is heretic and ” Mortad”( a person who leaves the religion (apostacy) and conspires against it.).” A History of Natural Philosophy By Edward Grant. His Ideology or opinions are preserved by his critcs.He rejected all miracles that are done by Moahmed peace be upon him and that fact that the angels rallied round to help Muhammad peace be upon him and Muslims in Badr(first battle in Islam) He said it is not logical, because it implies that the angels of Badr were weaklings, able to kill only seventy of the Prophet's enemies while at Uhud(second battle), when their help was so badly needed they didn’t help.He forgot that was the first lesson God taught them about the consequences of disobeying the Prophet’s orders .In fact,Mohamed taught them to stay in one place in mountain to protect their backs as a war strategy in the battle but they disobeyed him.so they lost first round but the pagans left the battlefield and returned home.That wasn”t a defeat in Islamic perception.Man has to bear the consequences of his bad acts.morever, criticizes prayer, preoccupation with ritual purity, and the ceremonies of the hajj: throwing stones, circumambulating a house that cannot respond to prayers, running between stones that can neither help nor harm. It goes on to ask why Safa and Marwa are venerated, and what difference there is between them and any other hill in the vicinity of Mecca, for example the hill of Abu Qubays, and why the Kaabais any better than any other house .according to Encyclopaedia of Islam:

“ "The plentiful extracts from the K. al-Zumurraudh provide a fairly clear indication of the most heterodox doctrine of Ibn al-Rawandi, that of which posterity has been least willing to forgive him: a biting criticism of prophecy in general and of the prophecy of Muhammad in particular; he maintains in addition that religious dogmas are not acceptable to reason and must, therefore, be rejected; the miracles attributed to the Prophets, persons who may reasonably be compared to sorcerers and magicians, are pure invention, and the greatest of the miracles in the eyes of orthodox Muslims, the Quran, gets no better treatment: it is neither a revealed book nor even an inimitable literary masterpiece. In order to cloak his thesis, which attacks the root of all types of religion, Ibn al-Rawandi used the fiction that they were uttered by Brahmans. His reputation as irreligious iconoclast spread in the 4th/10th century beyond the borders of Muslim literature." 1971, Volume 3, E J Brill, Leiden, p 905

Now maybe you will say what about ibn Babawayh.His full name is Ali ibn babawayah Qummi who died 939 .He was a Twelver Shi'a scholar from the time of the Ghaybat al-Sughra.I m asking you to give me what you called ‘ have with documentation, narrated from Ibn ‘Abbas “ here ,I will give you how how islam is protected:

1.we believe there is no prophet after Mohamed peace be upon him and no miracles.

2.when there is any debate about an issue Muslims refer that thing to what Quran , Sunna say.(we dont believe in people who cursed Aicha may Allah exalted her mention the prophet of peace be upon him and accused her of adultery and of lying that she said to people that her Father may allah exalted their mentions to be in replacement after the prophet peace be upon him ‘s death.

notice:we take Hadiths first from Sahih Bukari and Muslim.you may ask why?well,because the measure they depond on to take hadiths from people was so strict and then it comes others Nisa'ai ,Tirmidi,...


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

well,Issa or Essa are the same because it s difficult to write exactly how it is pronounced in arabic and written.in arabic there is one letter which doesnt exist in english or latin languages .that s why it is written like that way.that s not a problem like words in English COLOUR and COLOR.We believe that all Prophets sent by GOD ARE BROTHERS.

secondly,ALLAH says in HOLY QURAN:'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

Arabic language is different from English,you can say to your brother o son of my mother or son of my father which doesn't mean they are stepbrother .her Allah delibrately called him son of Marry because He has no father.he was born like in tha same way as Adam was(Adam here was born without parents.that s one of God's Power)

let s now examine the genealogy of Jesus according to your Bible because they contradict each other.but firsty let me tell you what the theologians and genealogists say:

"Actually, the fact that we have four gospels lies at the very heart of our problem. Because we read particular parables or sayings or stories in several different versions, we can't miss the disagreements between them" (John Dominic Crossan, Who is Jesus? pp. 3-4) quote “Acts of Jesus”, Mark’s omission

The history of Jesus Christ is contained in the four books ascribed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The first chapter of Matthew begins with giving a genealogy of Jesus Christ; and in the third chapter of Luke, there is also given a genealogy of Jesus Christ. Did those two agree, it would not prove the genealogy to be true, because it might, nevertheless, be a fabrication; but as they contradict each other in every particular, it proves falsehood absolutely. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Part Two, Section Four)

The truth of these matters must lie in that which is seen by the mind. If the discrepancy between the Gospels is not solved, we must give up our trust in the Gospels, as being true and written by a divine spirit, or as records worthy of credence, for both these characters are held to belong to these works.(Origen, Commentary on John, Book X)

“Both Matthew and Luke added birth narratives to their revisions of Mark, basing them on legends quite irreconcilable with each other” (Randal Helms, Gospel Fictions, 41)

Matthew records the fallacy of attributing fourteen generations from Abraham to David:

There were thus fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David until the deportation to Babylon, and fourteen from the deportation until the Messiah. (1:17)

Randal Helms elaborates this verse on page 46

“He had counted fourteen names from Abraham to David and thought he counted fourteen from Jechoniah to Jesus, and decided that this coincidence of numbers must indicate a prophetic pattern. But in fact he found not fourteen names from David to Jechoniah, but eighteen; so Matthew took the simple expedient ofchanging Joram into the father of Azariah (though he was, in fact, the great-great grandfather) and Josiah into the father of Jechoniah (though he was, in fact, his grandfather). But the pattern was illusory in the first place, and Matthew could have spared his trouble had he more carefully counted the names in the third group when proposing the pattern; for it contains not fourteen names but only thirteen”

The Gospel of Mark was written first, yet omits the genealogy required to prove that Jesus was foretold in Deuteronomy 18:18.

“Mark, the earliest Gospel, omits everything before Jesus’ appearance as an adult at the Jordon River to be baptized by John. It contains no birth narratives, no genealogies, no traces of childhood or youth whatever. This is a strange way to begin any attempt at a “life” of a person clearly regarded as spectacular. Mark’s Gospel is so lean and spare, so lacking in details about Jesus’ life that Jesus’ ministry could only have lasted a little over one year, as we have seen. It is only from John that the case can be built for a three-year time span” (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, p. 144)

The most striking feature of the early documents is that they do not set Jesus’ life in a specific historical situation. There is no Galilean ministry, and there are no parables, no miracles, no Passion in Jerusalem, no indication of time, place of attendant circumstances at all. The words Calvary, Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Galilee never appear in the early epistles, and the word Jerusalem is never used there in connection with Jesus (Doherty, pp. 68, 73). Instead, Jesus figures as a basically supernatural personage who took the “likeness” of man, “emptied” then of his supernatural powers (Phil 2:7).

(G.A. Wells, Can We Trust the New Testament? p. 3)

The gospels included in the New Testament (NT) are widely agreed to have been written between A.D. 70 and 100. In these four gospels, it is claimed that Jesus taught in Galilee in the opening decades of the first century, worked miracles there, or what at an y rate were taken for miracles, and died in Jerusalem at the behest of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. And yet, as I have reiterated in The Jesus Legend (1996) and The Jesus Myth (1999), none of these things are claimed, or even mentioned, in the earliest surviving Christian documents. In other words, none of these supposed historical events are touched upon in extant Christian documents which are either earlier than the gospels or early enough to have been written independently of them (that is, before those gospels or the traditions underlying them had become generally known in Christian circles). G.A. Wells, p. 1

The reason why Mark omitted the birth of Jesus was the Gnostic influence, who contended Jesus was only spiritual, he was not physically born in the flesh, yet lived inside the phantom body of non-physical nature.

The Gnostics denied the resurrection of Jesus; they agreed that Jesus had no physical body.

The earliest Gospel could easily play into the hands of those heretical Gnostic Christians who were teaching a Christology and notion of Jesus’ sonship quite unacceptable to the orthodox tradition” , Gospel Fictions p. 41)

The book of Acts teaches that Mark was a Jew; the son of Barnabas’s sister, he did not know the language of Greek.

Barnabas took the help of Paul because he knew the language of Greece, the official spoken language of Tarsus, where Paul was born. He was a Roman citizen who plotted to destroy the Church.

The Gospel of Mark was written in Greek, a language foreign to Jesus and his followers. It must be noted that Mark never saw Jesus during his life. Jesus had spoken Aramaic, a dialect of Arabic which was not commonly written. Yet the book of Daniel was originally composed in Aramaic, the rest of the Jewish scriptures exist in Hebrew.

Mark was indeed a Jew, but there is no evidence to confirm that he had learned Greek to preach to the Gentiles. For this reason only, the followers of Jesus were forbidden to preach among the non-Jews:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

In comparison, Jesus was only sent for the Jews. Muhammad was sent for the whole of mankind.

We have not sent you (Muhammad) except as a mercy to mankind

(Al-Quran 21:107)

"He must be called the Savior of


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revengadown 4 years ago

When, therefore, enterprising spirits responded to this natural craving by pretended Gospels full of romantic fables and fantastic and striking details, their fabrications were eagerly read and largely accepted as true by common folk who were devoid of any critical faculty and who were predisposed to believe what so luxuriously fed their pious curiosity. Both Catholics and Gnostics were concerned in writing these fictions. The former had no other motive than that of a pious fraud. . . . But the heretical apocryphists, while gratifying curiosity, composed spurious Gospels in order to trace backward their beliefs and peculiarities to Christ Himself.

The Church and the Fathers were hostile even towards the narratives of orthodox authorship. It was not until the Middle Ages, when their true origin was forgotten even by most of the learned, that these apocryphal stories began to enter largely into sacred legends, such as the "Aurea Sacra," into miracle plays, Christian art, and poetry. A comparison of the least extravagant of these productions with the real [sic] Gospels reveals the chasm separating them. Though worthless historically, the apocryphal Gospels help us to better understand the religious conditions of the second and third centuries, and they are also of no little value as early witnesses of the canonicity of the writings of the four Evangelists. (www.newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm)

Now, let us now examine the genealogies of Jesus.

The first two chapters of Matthew and the first three chapters of Luke were added in the second century by Hellenizers who would accept only a divinely born savior-god like those of the pagan mystery-cults. . . ." (Dr. Martin A. Larson, The Essene-Christian Faith, p. 175)

“Both Matthew and Luke added birth narratives to their revisions of Mark, basing them on legends quite irreconcilable with each other” (Randal Helms, Gospel Fictions, p. 41)

The order of development is betrayed in part by the fact that agreement among the synoptic Gospels ceases with the end of the Gospel of Mark. When Mark is no longer the common source for Matthew and Luke, they go their separate ways in reporting appearances. Similarly, Mark’s lack of birth and infancy story is the primary reason for the widely diverging accounts in Matthew and Luke. Furthermore, some early editions of Matthew and Luke may have existed without those tales of Jesus’ conception. (The Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, p. 39)

The history of Jesus Christ is contained in the four books ascribed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The first chapter of Matthew begins with giving a genealogy of Jesus Christ; and in the third chapter of Luke, there is also given a genealogy of Jesus Christ. Did those two agree, it would not prove the genealogy to be true, because it might, nevertheless, be a fabrication; but as they contradict each other in every particular, it proves falsehood absolutely. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Part Two, Section Four)

It is certain that the New Testament (as the Gospels) was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with…” (Reverend Taylor, Diegesis, Boston, 1872, p. 114)

According to modern scholarship, Matthew was written ten years before Luke, but the exact date of composition is not known. In fact, the New Testament events cannot be ascertained!

“It is impossible to give definite dates for all the events of the New Testament” (The World Book Encyclopedia, by World Book editors, p. 235)

It is universally agreed that the Sayings of Jesus passed orally from generation to generation before they were written down. But the problem is that there is no historical evidence for ‘M’ and ‘L’, the independent sources for Matthew and Luke, or the material that is not recorded by Mark.

The Organization called the Jesus Seminar doubts the sayings of Jesus.

"Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him." (The Five Gospels, p. 3)

There was little hesitation in reshaping materials to exclude whatever did not suit the particular editor’s point of view, or in substituting other formulae of his own composition and expanding or abridging after his own pleasure. The proof of this, for contemporary New Testament scholars and even the attentive lay student, can be seen in the somewhat cavalier way in which both Matthew and Luke treat the Gospel of Mark (which both, quite obviously, had before them as they compiled their own); they leave material out, make changes, and add to it at will. Elaine Pagels, author of Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas, reminds us that “what survived as orthodox Christianity did so by suppressing and forcibly eliminating a lot of other material”. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, p. 142)

"The concept of plagiarism was unknown in the ancient world. Authors freely copied from predecessors without acknowledgment. Sages became the repository of free-floating proverbs and witticisms. For the first Christians, Jesus was a legendary sage: it was proper to attribute the world’s wisdom to him. The proverb in Mark 2:17, for example, is attested in secular sources (Plutarch and Diogenes for example)...in the parallel to the Markan passage, Matthew adds a sentence taken from the prophet Hosea (Matt 9:13)." ("The Five Gospels)

The ‘oral tradition’ lasted until the 3rd century. It was too late for the Gospels to rely upon it. Luke himself admits that he used written material to forge his Gospel (Luke 1:3) John admits that he wrote his Gospel ‘for the faith’ (John 20:31) giving the implication that his work is not based on historical events, but he was only writing to embellish the beliefs of the Christian community.

"Most of the material in our Gospels existed for a considerable time in an oral stage before it was given the written form with which we are familiar." (New Bible Dictionary - Second Edition, p.436. Inter-Varsity Press: 1982)

The four Gospels were composed decades after Jesus’ departure. There is no reference to the Gospels in the writings of the Church Fathers.

Clement of Rome (d. 97) fails to mention the Gospels by name; he makes not a single reference to them:

"The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels. (John Remsburg, The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read)

John is acknowledged to be the most unreliable Gospel because it attempts to depict Jesus as “divine”, he was obviously writing for the Hellenistic community.

Matthew and Luke borrowed extensively from Mark, who himself was not an eye-witness. Papias testifies that Mark was not an eye-witness:

For he neither heard the Lord nor had been a follower of His. . .(Expositions of Oracles of the Lord)

Mark accompanied Barnabas on missionary trips. Barnabas is believed to be the first Christian missionary, but he was a strict follower of the Jewish Law whereas the missionaries today reject the Law

Nevertheless, Mark did not write Mark, nor did Matthew and Luke or John write their gospels. The four Gospels are anonymous documents; the names attached to them were inserted in the late 2nd century.

In fact, the Church bishop Irenaeus of Lyons was the first to mention Luke by name! Whoever composed the Gospels were not eye-witnesses, since they were all dead by that time!

The early Christians did not write a ‘gospel’ about Jesus because they assumed his return would be in their lifetimes. They remembered the saying of Jesus in Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 where Jesus allegedly promises th


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadown, thank you for the detailed Explenation about Prophet Isa / Essa son of Mary.

I'm more concern about Prophet Isa / Essa where we don't see the addition - Son of Mary.

What I'm trying to do, is to figure out genealogy of Nabi Ayoub.  

Prophet Issac had a son, the first born and carrier of Abrahamic religion, whose name was Essa.

This Essa was the great grandfather of Nabi Ayoub.

We know it from Septuagin LXX, ancient Coptic and Aabic Bibles.

In Surah 4 : 163, Allah list them both, and calls them by name: Prophet Essa and his great grandson Prophet Ayoub.

This makes two Prophets of Islam  called by the name Essa / Isa. 

Prophet Muhammad made the addition - son of Mary to not confuse them.

What do you think about it?


Martus 4 years ago

Michele,

Indeed,you are a precious child of God. Your sincerity will be rewarded, your hunger for the truth satisfied and the peace you're yearning for , will rest upon your thirsting soul.

The God, our Heavenly Father will answer prayers in your behalf.( At least three people are prying for you.)

Please, let me share an incident in my similar situation to yours (long time ago) : A mature believer told me: you'll understand soon, just put it on a " shelf" for time being. God is answer on time. He is never late! ( Our growth in wisdom ends when we drop down this earthly shell.)

Thank you for well written hub.

May your believing continue to get stronger.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Quran is revealed by GOD through the angel Gabriel 23 years verse by verse,chapter by chapter.Befor the prophet peace be upon him went to inform His companions about what is revealed to him.the angel Gabriel made surebefor he left that the messenger of Allah had memorised the verses or chapter by heart and then Prophetpeace be upon him read the chapters and the verses that were sent down to his Companions and the latters memorized them and some of the Companions wrote them down.in addition,there were revelation scribes of our Prophet .The Prophet peace be upon him was informed by Gabriel where to put the verses and chapters in the Quran and the Prophet told the revelation scribes what to do. Thus, all of the Quran was written down while he was alive and it was definite which verses belonged to which chapter.

Morever,Gabriel came down in each Ramadan and read all of the verses and chapters that had been sent down up to that time. In the last Ramadan before the death of our Prophet, Gabriel and our Prophet read the Quran twice. First Gabriel read it and the Prophet listened to him; then the Prophet read it and Gabriel listened to it. Thus, the last form of the Quran became definite.God says in QURAN "But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

and he said:"We send down Quran and We will protect it"that s why after 1400 The Quran is the same,no verse is changed or altered.If you go to Japon,to Russia,to south africa everywhere in the world you will find the same Quran as it was revealed to The messenger of God.

on other point,now I know what do you mean by Essa .Esau right?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Sagittaruis I d like to give you some information about the definition of"son" from the Bible,I already stated that which seems you didnt notice.but here it is what I said.You can check that above :

Now in Isaiah 9:6 " "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

It is quite unfortunate that in the old Jewish culture, people used to be named "Godly" names. This is quite misleading and deceiving to Christians when they try to define the deity of Jesus.

Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' " "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God". Christians claim that since the predicted Prophet's name (Jesus) will be called "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6-7, then therefore, he must be GOD Almighty Himself.

Also, let us look at John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." Ironically, Trinitarians from my personal experience with them rely on this verse (John 3:16) very heavily when trying to prove that Allah or Jehovah came down to earth to die for our sins. They claim that Jesus being God's unique son, makes him the only Son for God, which ultimately lead us to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus.

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...." Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac. Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac. The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion. The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible. So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

Let us look at Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!. Does this mean that Jehovah is Israel? Does it mean that we must worship Israel as Jehovah or Allah? Of course not !!!

Also, let us look at Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim in this verse means Israel. This verse is similar to Exodus 4:22.

Let us also look at Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had made him his begotten Son !!!.

Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadown, thanks for another lengthy explanation.

My idea about the Son and son, and the firstborn son is much more simple:

The Son, is the word of God: the Son of God is the son of Man (in fact, of Woman), conceived by the will of God. 

God said - be, and is done.

son (or daugter) is product of physical relationship between man and woman.

Firstborn - is a bit longer story. Among the Hebrews, as well as among other nations, the first-born enjoyed special privileges. 

Besides having a greater share in the paternal affection, he had everywhere the first place after his father and a kind of directive authority over his younger brothers,

a special blessing was reserved to him at his father's death, and he succeeded him as the head of the family, receiving 2/3 of father's property.

I should add the birthright; it was division of material property divided  between sons at their fathers death. The property was divided in to three parts, the 2/3 was given to the firstborn son, and the reminding 1/3 was divided between the other sons.

However, my question regarding Essa / Esau was: 

Do you see what I see, that in Sura 4,He is listed and called by name between the other Prophets?


Smireles profile image

Smireles 4 years ago from Texas

1 Timothy 3: 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit,

Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. New King James Version


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Smirles,You need to read ALL the comments here.who r Gentiles now and wher is believed in world?if you said paganism or trinty doctrine I WOULD SAY YES you right.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Smireles, very good comment in very few words. Fantastic :)


Smireles profile image

Smireles 4 years ago from Texas

revengadown, I have read most of the comments here and you spent a good deal of time pushing your own opinion. The fact is that if you are not a Jew you are a Gentile. It was true 2000 years ago and it is true today. There is no deep hidden meaning here about Jews and Gentiles. The world that is mentioned in 1 Timothy is literally the world as it was then and now.


MartusMichele 4 years ago

Michele,

Your hub might be becoming a great success.You have presented a condense sequential evidence to the subject of " Christianity" or/and "paganism". Great job! (evidently required good deal of research).

Very informative on historical flow of suppressing the original "movement"to establish the Kingdom of God.(Matt.3:1-2; 4:17) . Actually, the reverse the course of the "movement"almost has occurred before its start. The Devil came with an offer: "...all the kingdoms of the world...I will give you..."(Matt.4:8-10). The Devil knew/knows ( he isn't all knowing)--that the plane Earth is designated to remain the Kingdom of God dominated by the man free of sin. The past historical events recorded in the Bible are proven facts as well as the contemporary happenings, that the Kingdom of God on Earh has eternal purpose.

Presently we are witnessing ongoing battle a warefare between these two forcess: good--evil; truth--a deliberate falseho(lie); light--darkness. Any " labeling" does not change the facts of reality: a Christians are Christians according to the traditional , historical--man--made religion design as well as paganism, socialism--refs of ALL ISMS known and being created.

As a "final product" presented on the " market of humanity" (nicely wrapped and labeled as sweet changfull hope of utopia or any lucrative label)-- out of -- I s m---is a deception .

After all--all there is affordable on the market of humanity are either the sinner or the believers and thi is subjected to changes.

Publicized comments on this page ( many others too) witness to a futile war of words in attempt to owerpower Truth by falsehood . Some comments pointing to the Truth are profitable, --in few words peacefully proclaiming the Only Living God, the Master and Sustainer of the Univers ; the God who made himself known by sending His Only begotten Son -- to show us the Truth to live,has paid the price of redemption ,and now operates by the power of the holy Spirit.

Since the Satan has been defeated, he wants to deceive as many as all.

Anione, willing to make quality decision to step out of his domain, has choice to be free of sin and unbelief, activate the gift of faith accept the Lord Jesus the Anointed One and live in peace and joy FOREVER.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Martus your comment, although you tried to make it sound true, it is not. Satan has not yet been defeated. Revelation has not yet come. Anyone who has read the bible knows this to be true. Do not lie. True Christians are not blind, although satan is trying to blind many. "Since the Satan has been defeated, he wants to deceive as many as all." If satan had been defeated he could not have been able to deceive. Satan would not have the power to deceive. Do you understand?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Very smart response Michele


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Smireles, you say:

"The fact is if you are not Jew you are Gentile."

It is not so, and it wasn't in the time of Christ.

It is very important to learn who is who in the Bible.

It help us to get the big picture, and protects us from being confused and easy deceived.

I will try to draw the big picture.

Let me know if you don't agree with me.

The best way to learn about Gentiles and their God, is to read the oldest book of the Bible - the Book of Job.

The Book of Job is the only one non religious book of the Bible. 

Although deeply spiritual the Book of Job is not a religious one; there is no mention made of institution of Israel, whether temple, monarchy, prophets or priesthood.

This book has been written by not Israelite author on non Israelite soil; it is a book about the Gentiles and the God of Gentiles.

The Book of Job is one of the most important books of the Bible. Victor Hugo, French humanist, dramatist and leading poet, one of the builders of our  civilization once said:

“Tomorrow, if all the literature was to be destroyed and it was left to me to retain one work only, I should save Job”. 

It is a book for those who search for true God, outside of any religion.

In this book we find the oldest description of God who was worshiped not only of by Arameans like Abraham, Isaac or Esau but also Esau's descendants: Edomites, Thameans, Minoans / Minaeans and other descendants of Abraham and his brother Nahor.

If you look at the people who took part in the dialogues in the Book of Job, you will find there: 

“Eliphaz, of the children of Esau, king of the Thaemanites [the Themanites of Edom were famous for their wisdom (Jeremiah 49:7; Obadiah 5; Baruch 3:22 sq.)],

Baldad sovereign the Sauchaeans, son of Shuah. [ Shuah was the youngest son of Abraham by Ketura.]

Sophar king of the Minaeans [Minoans].”(Septuagint – LXX. Job Ch.42:17 ). He is listed in Gen. 36 :11 as Zepho, the third son of Eliphaz.

Elihu, descendent of Buz, son of Nahor the brother of Abraham.

All those people were Hebrews after Heber the  ancestor of Abraham and Nahor.

Heber was Semite, after his ancestor Shem, and Shem was Noahite, after his father Noah.

This is a bit confusing if you have been growing up in false believe that the Semites and Hebrews are only related to Israelites. 

In fact, Israelites are not really Semites, because they are heavily mixed with Cannaites  and other descendants of Ham. 

In Genesis 28 we read how after slaughtering all men of Sechem, Israelites took their Cannanites women and children in to slavery.

Then we have Judah, ancestor of Jews, in Genesis 38 who married Canaaite  woman, then his brothers and finally Joseph in Egypt who also mixed with Hamats.

So, there is not much of Semitic blood flowing in Israelites veins.

With Hebrew is similar story, nothing but confusion.

Hebrew is in fact more language and script, then group of people, and again, it has not much to do with Israelites.

Heber, after whom the name became popular, was the descendent of Noah. He was the third generation from Shem. The Bible reads:

Genesis 10

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

 1And these [are] births of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and born to them are sons after the deluge...

 21As to Shem, father of all sons of Eber, brother of Japheth the elder, he hath also begotten:

 22Sons of Shem [are] Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram....

 24And Arphaxad hath begotten Salah, and Salah hath begotten Eber."

So we have:

- Noah

- Shem

- Arphaxad

- Eber, who is better known as Heber.

Eber / Heber was the ancestor of Hebrews, and Hebraic language originated from his name.

Israelites lost their Hebrew language during slavery in Egypt, and it was the Edomites who during that time developed Hebrew script.

This post is getting bit to long, let me know if you are interested in learning more of the history of  Gentiles.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

A interesting topic indeed.. The relation of Pagans history along with Christians is quite interesting as a big fan of history and a man with keen interest in archeology that was an awesome post for me.. The comments were were nice as well the debate was surely of great level..this was first post read here and I was totally inspired with the level of discussion here and yeah I joined it here today!!

well that's it with the intro part..

Now even though I haven't read all the comments I read some of the them at the top as for the discussion of trinity what I believe is The Father, The son and The Holy spirit are three forms of same GOD.. The father refers to the creator the son is the messiah who was crucified as the sacrifices for sin of humans the holy spirit is the spirit of the GOD that lead many people to believe the truth and inspired many writers to write about almighty..The only reason we read Bible today is cause people were motivated by the Holy spirit to write about GOD..As you all should know Bible is a koine Greek word meaning collection of books (39 books in old testament and 27 books in new testament). Written by about 40 writers sharing their experiences with GOD and Holy spirit. The new testament which has been highly controversial over period of time tells us about the birth of Jesus Christ "the messiah". people who wrote new testament were disciples of Jesus Christ or people who came under the influence of Holy spirit. The fact that whether Jesus was crucified or not is many time opposed by anti-Christ the resurrection is some thing that many people deny but these events were witnessed by eyes of many and were then written down. There are many deceiving things and people who claim resurrection as just a myth or made up story to show Jesus divine. But those who witnessed it know the truth, we have not witnessed it by eyes so we may still debate over it but those who believe and those who don't can't proof anything scientifically or visually the feeling of GOD's power are those which are felt by heart not seen by eyes things visual to eyes are miracles of GOD.Even in bible it is said that people who saw Jesus do miracles called him wizard and claimed him to do things with help of devil which proves that even at time of Christ anti-Christ were present and were highly active.

If you talk about satan it is said that GOD created an angel and gave him all powers made him mightiest of all others and he with all powers became proud and mislead his path resulting in formation of the fallen one. It deceive people so that he could lead the away from GOD cause as many know GOD created humans and gave them free will so if satan deceives many people he could defy GOD and and seeing people GOD created himself falling into satan's pit HE becomes sad and it gives satan the utmost happiness. It simply tells us how people with many powers today are some times mislead in wrong direction and astray from the path of goodness (as happened in case of satan). There are many other facts those are said in bible many parables those have been used and verses with meanings so deep that if you read them you can totally relate them with things happening around today! As prophets said things are happening like that you just got to read and find similarity if you be ignorant about it you can never feel GOD or holy spirit. Just as if you remain in vaccum for all your life you can never feel air and you will deny its existence.

As for pagans cultural relation with Christians I do not know much but I'll study about it to make any comment.But from what I read in above article and comments I can deduce that what Christians did at that time was just adopt some of the cultural things of Pagans to spread their word of GOD. They thought it beneficial as it was not changing the fact and basic structure of what Bible says and with some of cultural (please focus on how I am using cultural instead of religious or spiritual) addition of Pagans if Christians were benefited without loosing any of their religious believes I don't in my opinion think they were wrong at all!!

I got many more things on my mind to say but I'll just take a pause for now and study about it a more and tomorrow(as its late night here in India) I'll make more comments about it based on what replies are present here.

Hope I was not too immature(m still 18) and its my first time discussion of such level and on such a great and controversial topic.. I hope to learn more and more from here.

I could even appreciate if you read my posts and articles as well!! I'll write them and publish them ASAP..

Thank you for reading. ^^


Smireles profile image

Smireles 4 years ago from Texas

@Sagitarius2012 I do not agree with you. Jews are the remnants of the 12 sons of Israel. The Jews believe that anyone who is not one of them is a Gentile. This is common knowledge and not something we need to interpret. I am very familiar with all the passages you mentioned from the Old Testament and do not need further study. Perhaps you might try a dictionary to enlighten you about these terms. Blessings.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Smireles,I’m not here to impose my agenda or as you put it in your words to push my own opinions.I m here to open your eyes to the big lie which was invented by someone who never met Jesus in person and who wasn’t persistent to know who was really Jesus and to the fact that the earth's population is around 7.0 billion people, half of which are far-eastern pagans. Not only that, but their pagan religions (buddhism, hinduism, shintos, etc...) date 1000s of years back. This means that many billions of humans have already been doomed in Hell because of their paganism. they are the majority!

Matthew 15:9

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Morever,being a Jew or a Gentile is not the point here.what is importent is what Shakespear says: “Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. “

In our daily life when our car is dead,we bring a mechanic to fix it or if we want to buy a car from someone,we take with us someone who knows a lot about cars but when we want to know something about Bible, we go to Bible scholars or theologians.Let’s read what two of those “experts” say Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian Evangelical Mission in the world, answering the question — "Is the Bible the Word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: IT IS HUMAN, YET DIVINE. He says on page 17:

"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge,1 have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men."

Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The Call of the Minaret":

"Not so the New Testament. . . There is condensation and editing; there is choice, reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the Church behind the authors. They represent experience and history."

If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? No!But the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make you believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable

6 Word of God." their semantic gymnastics ..equivocating, and playing

with words is amazing!

Let s summarise that in points:

1. Out of ignorance.

2. The Bible is not Just a Book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.

3. As opposed to the Quran.

4. Another word for Interpolating.

Both these Doctors of Religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An

old Arab saying goes: "IF SUCH ARE THE PRIESTS, GOD BLESS THE CONGREGATION."

You can read and check also this:

The Bible contains many different styles of writing such as poetry, narration, fiction, history, law, and prophecy and must be interpreted in context of those styles. It is the source of the Christian religion in that the Bible contains the words of God and how the Christian is to apply the words of God to his life."

Source : http://www.carm.org/seek/Bible.htm

Once Ahmed deedat in Newtown,Johensburg met an evangelist student from University of Witwatersrand who was introducing Christanity to some Muslims near a Mosque in sense of witnessing .Ahmed invited him fto the house for dinner .While they were eating,he said to him :Your professor

Geyser, (The Head of the Department of Theology) does not believe the Bible to be the Word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know."so when he said to him: “As lecturer doesn’t believe that Bible is the God’s word.”he answered him ‘Yes,I know but I Believe it s the word of God”there is no remedy for such people,even Jesus bewailed this sickness:

"... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)Quran also condemends this mentality as I stated above:

Deaf,dumb,blind they will not return to the path 2:18

Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."

A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following: "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature.

Let s see what George Bernard Shaw says about Islam:

“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today”

Shaw also stated that "If any religion has a chance of conquering England ,nay Europe, within the next hundred years, that religion is Islam."

According to British DailyMail Electronic newspaper about 5,200 people in UK adopted Islam last year .One of them Lauren Booth, sister-in-law of former prime minister Tony Blair, attracted widespread publicity when she announced that she had converted to Islam.

The report estimated around 5,200 men and women have adopted Islam over the past 12 months, including 1,400 in London. Nearly two-thirds were women, more than 70 per cent were white and the average age at conversion was 27.

In 2001, there were an estimated 60,000 Muslim converts in Britain.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343954/10...

And this still what Shaw says:He said about the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) : He was by far the most remarkable man that ever set foot on this earth. He preached a religion, founded a state, built a nation, laid down a moral code, initiated numerous social and political reforms, established a powerful and dynamic society to practice and represent his teachings and completely revolutionized the worlds of human thought and behavior for all times to come


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Sagittaruis,do you mean Esau in that Quranic verse?If that s what you meant,It s not correct because the one who was mentioned there is Jesus.The Quran does not mention, Esau the brother of Jacob, the son of Isaac.

Neither do the sayings attributed to the Prophet, the Hadiths.

The Quran rather speaks about Jacob in high esteem and presents the story of Joseph and his brothers as a Moral lesson to the believers.

Islam recognizes the possibility of the existence of a brother of Jacob as well as more sons of Isaac. But he isnt as relevant as certain Christians and Jews may think.

Jews and Christians associate Esau with the Arab peoples, and the Children of Ishmael.

Islam does not put Ishmael above Isaac nor Isaac above Ishmael, peace be to them both rather it raises both their status as blessed and guided and prophets and righteous men of God.

The Quran considers all the sons of Abraham as part of the covenant and all those who follow the teaching given to Abraham not only to a certain nation or person.

I hope that I gave you some useful Information:)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you for your comment, it is very good. There is one thing I would like to add. Many people were crucified. However, there Jesus Christ's resurrection was true. Because after he was crucified, His follower's went into hiding. Then he rose from the dead. After that, those men who were in hiding came out. After seeing Him, talking to Him, touching Him, they changed. They were willing to give up their lives to follow Him. He was worth more then anything on earth. He is the Son of God. If He had not risen from the dead, would they have come out of hiding? I don't think so. Christianity would have died with Him. But it did not. That is why Christians are here today. Ok, I am done for now, just for a little bit anyway.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you. Sometimes people need to be careful.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Endless Sea,the Bible you have today is unreliable and mostly filled with man laws and corruption.When I showed to people here the lie they are living,they said to me that I m bully,Jihadist,bomb suicider,athiest,devil implicitly in some words and some say "I am one who needs no proof"which means they are pride and stand-offish .I gave them evidences from the Bible,from many different books but as Quran stated"deaf,dumb,blind they will not return (to path).God gives us mind to you use it not to put it in the sand and say the world outside is cool.Those cute sayings like the divinity of Jesus(peace be upon him) is hard to understand by human mind but it can be felt by heart is rediculous.It s better for me to read SHAKESPEAR 's in this occasion to enjoy and learn than to read Bible which is filled with man laws and corruptions,fictions,wierd things,but as it appears to me that you like science,truth and enthusiest to seek for the truth.being in India is a great previlege for you :)which meansI guess you know Islam,Quran and maybe you have a lot of Muslim friends:)

Without beating long around the bush,I d like to discuss with you scientific things..Well,if you glance ,I think you did it befor, through the Bible and the Quran you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth.

a. Creation of the Universe in Six Days:

As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter On e, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Quran mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.

b. Sun Created After the Day:

The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.

c. Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon:

According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.

d. Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day:

According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?

If Prophet Muhummad peace be upon him was indeed the author of the Quran and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Quran does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.

e. The Sun and the Moon both Emit light:

According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, “And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad peace be upon him corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Quran is to think of something impossible.

f. Adam the First man on Earth, lived 5,800 years ago

As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham peace be upon him to the first man on earth i.e. Adam peace be upon him, Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:

1948 years between Adam peace be upon him and Abraham peace =be upon him

Approximately 1800 years between Abraham peace be upon him and Jesus peace be upon him

2000 years from Jesus peace be upon him till today

These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.

There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.

The Qur’an too speaks about Adam peace be upon him as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.

g. Noah and the Flood

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah peace be upon him in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam peace be upon him or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah peace be upon him was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Quranic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad peace be upon him had borrowed the story of the flood from


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

the Bible


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Sagittaruis,you said in one of you previous comments that I didn't know how I didnt pay attention to it "Christianity was booming long before Constantine became Roman Emperor."Christianity was created by Constintine and befor that there were groups fighting with each other over the nature of Jesus peace be upon him but I d like to answer me about one thing:who were the first generation witnesses? what were their beliefs?as you know Christianity that you have today is founded by Costintine.please I don’t want to hear you saying that those people who wrote the Bible were inspired and protected by God so as not to err. The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE!" Magazine dated 8 September, 1957, carried this

startling headline — "50000 ERRORS in the Bible” "there are probably 50 000 errors . . . errors that have crept into the Bible text . . . 50000 such serious (?) errors… most of those so-called errors... as a whole the Bible is accurate."

do you attribute those errors to God?

"inspired" authors were unanimous in recording that their Lord and Saviour rode a donkey into Jerusalem as his mission drew to a close.

“ . . . And they sat him thereon." (The Donkey)(Matt. 21:7)

“ . . . And he sat upon him." (The Donkey)(Mark 11:7)

“ . . . And they set Jesus Thereon." (The Donkey) (Luke 19:35)

“ . . . Jesus ... sat thereon:" (The Donkey)(John 12:14)Could God Almighty have been the author of this incongruous situation — going out of His Way to see that all the Gospel writers did not miss their footing recording of His "son's" donkey-ride

into the Holy City — and yet "inspiring" them to black-out the news about His "son's" heavenly flight on the wings of angels?

For us wherever u go in the world you will find the same Quran,nothing have changed,nothing have added since 1400 years.

Talking about persecution.there is no shred evidence that proves that they dies because of their belief in Jesus as son of God or God.The Roman WRATH WAS ON EVERYONE but some earlier belivers were persecuted and annihilated because they believe in Jesus peace be upon him as messenger of God you can check that in my hub and morever his death was clouded in mysterious.there is possibility of being killed by Sassanid “Assassins not he died of sickness as Vatican claimed.The emperor wasn’t interested in religion as much as he was interested in how to keep his empire so strong.

I suggest for you to read this one for further information about constintine

http://one-evil.org/people/people_04c_constantine....


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

In the Qur'an did Jesus rise from the dead? If He did not rise from the dead in the Qur'an then why did his followers stop hiding and start preaching, and even allowed themselves to be tortured to death in order to keep following Him? In order to keep teaching the gospel from land to land? The men were hiding, then they came out of hiding and allowed themselves to die horrible deaths.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

It seems as if you said that the Religion you believe in is true because it s dominant today and God who wanted that to be.

In this sense, Allah had earlier made pagan religions the dominant ones in the world. There are presently 800 million Hindus who worship idols. Their prevalence does not validate idolatry, nor does the dominance of Christians validate Christianity. Allah had earlier allowed Pharaohs, Nimrods and other Emperors unbridled dominance in this world. Allah gave the Roman Emperors (Nero 69 -79 AD to Diocletian 284 -305 AD) dominance and authority to severely persecute the ones who called" Christians."

It is true that not even a leaf falls from a tree without the permission of Allah.

6:59 … Not (even) a leaf falls (from a tree) without His explicit knowledge…

Allah has laid down the rules. He has granted man a free will. Acceptance of divine guidance is absolutely voluntary. There is no compulsion and no coercion! Success, failure, and the vicissitudes of life are merely tests.

18:29 Say, “This is the truth! It is from your Lord! So, (now) whoever wants may believe it. If anyone wishes to disbelieve, let him.”

2:256 There is no compulsion (and coercion) in religion. The right (and the upright) has been sifted (and marked out clearly) from the wrong (and the ruinous).

18:7 We have, in fact, fashioned everything in this world as mere adornments in order to test them!

10:108 ….So, whoever accepts the guidance, does so for his own good. Whoever fails to do so, will only lead himself astray….

3:140 ….. These are the vicissitudes of life that We circulate among mankind by turns. Thus, Allah tests the true believers among you …..

If a man chose a wrong or even a disastrous path, he will not be prevented from pursuing it. In fact, that path would even be facilitated for him. That is the way of Allah!

4:115 After the guidance has been revealed and explained, if anyone parts his way with the messenger and follows a path different from that of the believers, then We will divert him along his (chosen) path. We will hurl him in the hell (in the hereafter). What a despicable destination!

Muslims believe that Allah allowed Christianity to be started by those who chose to deviate from the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)

It is the Christians like Mr. Woods, who believe that Allah started Christianity;

It is disingenuous to say that Christianity is the dominant religion in the world. Christianity has the most adherents, provided one counts all the thousands of sects who call each other non-Christians, as Christians. But it has had approximately 600 more years to work with than Islam. Taken that into consideration, Islam has performed far better than Christianity.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I was not asking about a religion being the dominant religion in the world. I was asking why Jesus Christ's followers, decided to stop hiding. Many were crucified. When Jesus was crucified, his ( male ) followers went into hiding. Three days later, after he rose from the dead and they actually saw Him, and touched Him, spoke with Him. Not one but many. Then they went out and spoke to the world, even though they were being tortured to death. They came out of hiding. Their faith was stronger then fear of death, torture. They had see Jesus Christ die, He had been dead for three days. Then he was alive! He truly was. If it was fake, they would not have laid down their lives for Him.


MartusMicheleMichele 4 years ago

Michele,

Thank you for your sincerity . (Please,grant me permission to apologize. Thanks)

The truth is"Satan has not been defeated."

Your correction has erased potential lie about tha Satan and the same time alerted me to more carefully choosing expressions while directly " translating" from my native language .

The passage Matt. 4: 8-10 (temptation of Jesus), "we" have a quote. "Satan was defeated by the WORD "

When we meet at the place of Eternal Dwelling, we might have a good laugh about this.

Thank you for your wonderful work.


Martus 4 years ago

Michele, please help me: take out double " Michele" from my above comment. Thank you


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

I am said many use here propaganda of their own religion and not keeping topic.


sandramathew profile image

sandramathew 4 years ago from Melbourne, Australia

Interesting!


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Sure! as being from India I take pride of it and I have read the Hindu mythology and Bible as well and am aware of writings in Qur'an. I believe in existence of one and only Almighty and the resurrection of Christ as well as bible. The facts you presented are quite interesting and well researched(I hope so) :). What I will say are not fact very well researched by my nor I have been in this field of archeology or anthropolgy you have mentioned with my keen interest in these and believes I have a bit of knowledge and by the mighty GOD's blessing a bit wisdom to put together a comment that I hope can be comparable to what you said and stated.

As you said! the term Christian appears in new testament 3 times. First in Act 11:26 "In Antioch the disciples were first called Christians." Second mention of the words comes in Act 26:28 where Herod Agrippa II replies to Paul the Apostle," Do you think in such a short time you can persuade me to be Christian?" The third mention and the final one is in 1 peter 4:16 ," If you suffer as Christian be not ashamed, thank GOD for you bear that name. There was one more word known for Christians it was Nazarenes. We can see it in Act 24. As Jesus was known as Nazaroen from the word Nazareth. It is still modern Hebrew word Christians in Israel. when you read Genesis in Gen 1:3 it says "The GOD created light and then there was light." continuation with it Gen1:4 "GOD separated light and darkness" in Gen 1:5 it says "GOD called the light day and the darkness HE called night." in Gen 1:5 "so the evening and the morning were the first day." Then GOD created firmament(sky) and called it heaven and he divided the waters which were under the firmament and which were above" and it was the second day. Then GOD created a dry land and gathered all water from below the firmament and he called the dry land earth and water sea. Then GOD said let earth bring forth grass plants and trees which yield the seed of its own kind and it was so and that was third day. (it dosen't mentions that those plants started yielding foods yet so it is still scientifically acceptable). Then GOD created the two great lights one to rule the night and one to rule the day. "He made stars" as per scientific studies sun is as star where as moon is a natural satellite so by mention the term of stars the Bible refers to sun and the stars of night. There is no mention of moon in there. (now I guess its scientifically acceptable as well). and it was fourth day. Then GOD created birds, sea creatures and every living thing that moves. GOD blessed them saying be fruitful and multiply as this was fifth day. Then GOD said let earth bring forth the living creature according to its own kind: cattle creeping thing and beat and it was so. GOD created cattle, creeping thing and beast of its own kind. Then GOD said "let us make man in our own image." (notice how Bible says the living things were made after formation of sun). The thing saying earth and moon are parts of sun is bit confusing. Sun is mass of gases like helium hydrogen undergoing fission and fusion so can a celestial body like earth where life is possible be formed from sun? was earth created after creation of other 5 planets(excluding pluto) as it is 6th no. from last were mecury and venus created after formation of earth?? if so why during all these years the formation was taking place the bodies never collided and were destroyed? According to Bible Earth was created and vegetated and had life on it in 6 days. It never mentions the formation of other planets and celestial bodies not does it tells you about universe what it talks about is heaven which can be far above the universe men have yet explored. Plus Bible gives you answers to many question and many reasons the things happen today. It tells you in about the events taking place and the start of things as now we see.. The reason for birth labour, crawling of snakes even though other reptiles have legs. The start of sin. The ten commandments those were given(the 10 things not to do are today's main cause of panic and problems). How was someone able to describe things with such nice manner and reasons. you say Qur'an was copied from Bible sorry it was taken from Bible and made perfect and scientifically by prophet Mohammad it means even He believed in Bible and what he did was took over facts and made it scientifically even more easier. As I said before if you read bible with you whole heart there is nothing or no question left in your mind.Everything is well explained and reasoned.

As I mentioned before I have yet not highly studied or researched the facts but I'll keep on doing so. cause what truth is should come to knowledge. Until then I m strongly with my believes and I m sure that the truth will not be sour for me.

Hope my comment was not misleading or offensive if so I would like to apologise..

GOD bless us!!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Martus, thank you for your comment. I appreciate it very much.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Martus, I don't think I can take the double "michele" out of your comment. Comments belong to the person who creates the comment. Please do not be concerned about that.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

endless sea your comment is wonderful, fantastic and wonderful. Thank you very much for posting it.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Its my utmost pleasure to post here!! I serious feel happy being able to comment and discuss about things. :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Now I am looking forward to your hubs :)


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

sure I'll be posting them soon..Although I tried to post few of my work they seem to be stated as duplicate(may be cause I already had them in my bloggers blog.) I got know about hub recently so from now one I'll b posting here :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I am always looking forward to learning and you know a lot, so that is a good thing.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Its not that I know a lot I am simply interested in things and I love to put together some ideas and facts. I am hoping to learn a lot more from here. :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is a good thing, I have learned a lot. There are many here who know quite a lot, and are more then willing to teach. So, welcome to hubpages! ( again :)


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Endless Sea,Well,what you mentioned : grass,days and night.. doesn’t contain any scientific information but what attracts me more is when you mentioned Venus ,Mercury.in the Christian Bible and Hebrew (and in Shakespeare's plays as well,by the way,I ADORE SHAKESPEAR,he was the real one who was inspired not those 4o lairs as you mentioned ;)), the word "star" usually refers to one of these "wandering stars" which we would call "planets" in the English language of our more scientifically advanced time period in Jesus s time didn’t know Venus or mercury by its name.a caveman can observe that in the sky even you know if you go outside you can see it as you have night there,it twinkles twinkles. Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star"you know that song which is mentioned in story Alice in wanderland by Louis Carol .what you said is not something startling,now be ready for the shock?

Remember that when the Bible was written no one knew that the brightest "stars" in the night sky were really the visible planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. And they did not know that the heavenly bodies we know as the Moon and planets of our solar system were appearing brighter than the far-distant "fixed" stars simply because they were much closer to the Sun and to the Earth than the "real" light-emitting stars, and they were just reflecting the Sun's strong light back to us on Earth. To the ancients of biblical times, they were "stars" which were brighter and which "wandered" across the sky on a course of their own, independent of the other stationary stars which formed a fixed background upon which the motion of these "wandering stars" could be seen.

the Bible Declares:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless...." (2 Samuel 22:31)

"And the words of the LORD are flawless...." (Psalm 12:6)

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless...." (Psalm 18:30)

"Every word of God is flawless...." (Proverbs 30:5)

Now let’s examin to what extent what is declared is true:

Proverbs 6:6-8, ants have no commander, no ruler and no overseer! This is absurdly false, because ants live in colonies and ranks of rulership and authority. And they have a queen.

Compare this falsehood to the Holy Quran's Scientific Miracle about the ants ranks and 4 layers of communications which scientists today have recently confirmed: Ants do indeed talk to each others as the Holy Quran Stated!

Revelations 12:1-9, the dragon will enter heaven and wage war with the angels! It is a classic fairy tale from a magical world.

Matthew 27:51-53, the resurrection of the dead at crucifixion is not mentioned by three gospels, and is considered a fairy tale according to Bibles' commentaries.

Judges 9:7-16, trees voted for their own King. Judges 9:8 "The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them."

Carm.org said: "The Bible contains many different styles of writing such as poetry, narration, fiction, history, law, and prophecy and must be interpreted in context of those styles."

Leviticus 11:20-23, "All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you." No insect with four legs exists. Insects have six legs and six feet.

Leviticus 11:6 "The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Rabbits, are lagomorphs, not ruminants; they do not chew the cud.

The earth is flat, has four corners, is standing on pillars that prevent it from shaking, and is immovable. (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6, Job 38:4, Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 93:1-3, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, 1 Chronicles 16:30, Matthew 4:8)

Daniel 4:10-11 declares the earth is flat, "10 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth."

Matthew 13:31-32 "He (Jesus) told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds," The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.

Mark 16:18 "they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it, that the Bible theologians insist on denying these verses by saying: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." [1] [2].

John 12:24 "I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." That is scientifically false. The dead seed does not produce new seeds.

James 5:3 gold and silver do rust.

Genesis 1:16, GOD Almighty created two lamps, the sun and the moon, each giving an independent light to earth. The Hebrew says "two lamps", meaning each giving off its independent light. Visit: http://biblelexicon.org/genesis/1-16.htm.

Leviticus 12:2-5, a female causes double the pollution when she's born than that of a boy. The mother remains unclean for 66 days after birth of a female instead of 33 days if she gives birth to a male.

Leviticus 14:49-53

49 take two birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop.

50 He shall kill one of the birds over fresh water in a clay pot.

51 Then he is to take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the scarlet yarn and the live bird, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and the fresh water, and sprinkle the house seven times.

52 He shall purify the house with the bird's blood, the fresh water, the live bird, the cedar wood, the hyssop and the scarlet yarn.

53 Then he is to release the live bird in the open fields outside the town. In this way he will make atonement for the house, and it will be clean."

Leviticus 14:14

14 The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.

1 Corinthians 2:15 The spiritual leader is above the law; he is the supreme Law! He "The spiritual man makes judgment about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment."

• The problem with this verse is that it is absurd at best, because the Christian spiritual leaders of all denominations are historically notorious in getting exposed with too much scandals in corruption, stealing, misusing the donations to themselves, prostitutions, homosexuality, too much pedophilia, and even war mongering and persecutions. So how can any man of any faith, who as a human can go astray any time, be above and beyond the Law that he himself is even looked at and is treated as the Supreme Law?

I m asking you here,why Church in medieval ages sold those kind of papers of forgivness to innocent people?and why Galili was excuted by church?because he said earth isn’t flat and it was the earth tha ran around the sun.

1 Kings 11:4 "As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods."

2 Kings 23:12-14

12 He pulled down the altars the kings of Judah had erected on the roof near the upper room of Ahaz, and the altars Manasseh had built in the two courts of the temple of the LORD. He removed them from there, smashed them to pieces and threw the rubble into the Kidron Valley.

13 The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon.

14 Josiah smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles and covered the sites with human bones.

• King Solomon was one of the Bible's P


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

What you wrote are purely explainable.. As I told you before Bible is not a work to be understood by many what you are taking is just the literary meaning... I'll be responding with the meaning shortly. (quite busy this time). ^_^ and yeah I have heard the song twinkle twinkle :P


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Some religion is teaching if one is good more than 50% he will go to heaven. This is false teaching and religion. Knowing something from Bible is not enough. One must abide in the Word to find the truth and be set free. Then man will understand Bible. Here is the question: How many times one can break God's Law? Adam did onece and he died. It was only one sin of unbelief in Word of God. He was reborn to Satan family so to speak. He was not any more child of God. To receive back what we lost and reenter into family of God one must to be born again. Religion claims one must be good and do this or that, it does not count. Man needs new heart. This is one basic principle we learned from the Bible. The Bible is living Word given to us. The Word - Logos is living person His name is Jesus (Yeshuvah) we receive new life by faith through God's grace... What a blessing we received! Since God did not judge us and adopted us we cannot judge others without backfire and releasing curse. Religion (did not come from God) will always judge you and will criticize. Devil is accuser day and night. As we see from Bible man was never enough good and Bible wants to show it to us. Jesus said: you have to be born again. Then you can start new life. Otherwise no other god can help you.

Man has to keep all commandment without broken one. Nobody did. Only One and it is Jesus Christ.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Revengadown! just a simple question for you... Have you ever read the Bible (book) [not from net]. With a feeling of true and kind heart??? Even the greatest work of literature you seem to adore so much tells us that when talking in parables and addressing multitudes just make it more example full you are suppose "not" to use the literary meaning. Every sentence you say and write can be formed in many meanings or simply saying any sentence in literature has more than one meaning. The number of meaning can depend on the way of addressing. You can take the good meaning or the bad ones, right or the wrong ones. There are many versus you post It'll take me a whole lot of time to just RTC(reference to context) about it. Yet I'll not stop if you put some of the top sentences you seem to feel are wrong and I'll with all my knowledge try to answer it. ^_^

Thank you..


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Smireles, whether you agree with me or not, the Bible is the only reliable  source of information regarding Israel and Judah. The first outside Biblical information about Israel was written in 9 / 8 B.C.E. on Tell Dan Stele, and it confirms what is written in the Bible.

Do you consider dictionary more important then the Bible, the word of God?

Israelites are descendants of Jacob / Israel - it includes Jews and other tribes of Israel. About their origin you can read in Genesis 29 and 30.

"Jacob’s Children

 31 When the LORD saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless. 32 Leah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Reuben,[b] for she said, “It is because the LORD has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.”

 33 She conceived again, and when she gave birth to a son she said, “Because the LORD heard that I am not loved, he gave me this one too.” So she named him Simeon.[c]

 34 Again she conceived, and when she gave birth to a son she said, “Now at last my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons.” So he was named Levi.[d]

 35 She conceived again, and when she gave birth to a son she said, “This time I will praise the LORD.” So she named him Judah.[e] Then she stopped having children."

So we have now Judah, ancestor of the Jews.

Let's continue with ancestors of the other tribes of Israel:

Genesis 30 reads:

 1 When Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children, she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or I’ll die!”

 2 Jacob became angry with her and said, “Am I in the place of God, who has kept you from having children?”

 3 Then she said, “Here is Bilhah, my servant. Sleep with her so that she can bear children for me and I too can build a family through her.”

 4 So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife. Jacob slept with her, 5 and she became pregnant and bore him a son. 6 Then Rachel said, “God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son.” Because of this she named him Dan.[a]

 7 Rachel’s servant Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. 8 Then Rachel said, “I have had a great struggle with my sister, and I have won.” So she named him Naphtali.[b]

 9 When Leah saw that she had stopped having children, she took her servant Zilpah and gave her to Jacob as a wife. 10 Leah’s servant Zilpah bore Jacob a son. 11 Then Leah said, “What good fortune!”[c] So she named him Gad.[d]

 12 Leah’s servant Zilpah bore Jacob a second son. 13 Then Leah said, “How happy I am! The women will call me happy.” So she named him Asher.[e]

 14 During wheat harvest, Reuben went out into the fields and found some mandrake plants, which he brought to his mother Leah. Rachel said to Leah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes.”

 15 But she said to her, “Wasn’t it enough that you took away my husband? Will you take my son’s mandrakes too?”

   “Very well,” Rachel said, “he can sleep with you tonight in return for your son’s mandrakes.”

 16 So when Jacob came in from the fields that evening, Leah went out to meet him. “You must sleep with me,” she said. “I have hired you with my son’s mandrakes.” So he slept with her that night.

 17 God listened to Leah, and she became pregnant and bore Jacob a fifth son. 18 Then Leah said, “God has rewarded me for giving my servant to my husband.” So she named him Issachar.[f]

 19 Leah conceived again and bore Jacob a sixth son. 20 Then Leah said, “God has presented me with a precious gift. This time my husband will treat me with honor, because I have borne him six sons.” So she named him Zebulun.[g]

 21 Some time later she gave birth to a daughter and named her Dinah.

 22 Then God remembered Rachel; he listened to her and enabled her to conceive. 23 She became pregnant and gave birth to a son and said, “God has taken away my disgrace.” 24 She named him Joseph,[h] and said, “May the LORD add to me another son.”

So, Jews are descendents of Judah; and Genesis 38 tells us how Judah married Canaaite woman and had three sons by her:

Genesis 38

" 1 At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah.

 2 There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and made love to her; 3 she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 

4 She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan.

 5 She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him."

Why Jews are playing major role between other tribes of Israel? 

We can read about these events in Genesis Chapter 49. This chapter tells how Rebuen, who was the first born son of Israel lost his birth-right and blessing. As the first-born Rebuen had authority over his younger brothers, and for him a special blessing was reserved at his father's death. He should succeeded his father as the head of the family, received 2/3 of father's property. However, Rebuen lost his privileges  because he slept with his father's wife.

All this privileges went to Judah; Genesis 49 reads:

"Genesis 49

Jacob Blesses His Sons

 1 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: “Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.

 2 “Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob; 

   listen to your father Israel.

 3 “Reuben, you are my firstborn, 

   my might, the first sign of my strength, 

   excelling in honor, excelling in power. 

4 Turbulent as the waters, 

you will no longer excel, 

   for you went up onto your father’s bed, 

   onto my couch and defiled it.

 5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers— 

   their swords[a] are weapons of violence.

6 Let me not enter their council, 

   let me not join their assembly, 

for they have killed men in their anger 

   and hamstrung oxen as they pleased. 

7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce, 

   and their fury, so cruel! 

I will scatter them in Jacob 

   and disperse them in Israel.

 8 “Judah,[b] your brothers will praise you;

   your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; 

   your father’s sons will bow down to you. 

9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah; 

   you return from the prey, my son. 

Like a lion he crouches and lies down, 

   like a lioness—who dares to rouse him? 

10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, 

   nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,[c] 

until he to whom it belongs[d] shall come 

   and the obedience of the nations shall be his. 

11 He will tether his donkey to a vine, 

   his colt to the choicest branch; 

he will wash his garments in wine, 

   his robes in the blood of grapes. 

12 His eyes will be darker than wine, 

   his teeth whiter than milk."

Almost 1000 years later, in 922 B.C. Israel becomes two kingdoms: Judah and Israel.

 About wickedness of their kings you can read in the Bible, in the books of Kings and Chronicles.

In 721 B.C. Assyrians  captured Israel and placed its population in Asia, behind Caucasus Mountains, never to returned to Palestine.

 Over millenniums some of Israelites migrated West, conquering parts of  Europe and in fourth century C.E. North - Western Africa.

After  Constantine moved the seat of the Roman Empire to Constantinople, the "lost tribes of Israel" sacked Rome, and with the Fourth Crusade, in 1202, they ended the original Christianity. 

The Fourth Crusade, which was originally intended to conquer Muslim-controlled Jerusalem by means of an invasion through Egypt was organized by Rome run by the by Vandals.

Instead of attacking Jerusalem, in April 1204, the Crusaders of Western Europe invaded and conquered the Christian  city of Constantinople, capital of the new Roman Empire. 

This is seen as one of the final acts in the Great Schism between the  Christian Church of Constantinople  and Vandal's  Church of Rome.

The great historian of the Crusades, Sir Steven Runciman, wrote that the sack of Constantinople is “unparalleled in history”.

“For nine centuries,” he goes on, “the great city had been the capital of Christian civilisation.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Yes people are in sin of unbelief. This is why men needs being born again.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius 10, can u tell us your personal testimony?

The Bible informed us what ever we need for salvation and life.


Smireles profile image

Smireles 4 years ago from Texas

Sagitarius2012, the Bible is the only reliable source for doctrinal truth. Israel is an ancient country and people and their history may be found in many sacred texts. Some information about the thinking of the Jews is common knowledge. I agree with Vladimir Uhri that the Bible informs us about salvation and life. Have you been born again?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Smireles, what Jews think about the origin of Christians and Gentiles was written and well preserved in the book The Key of David.

Without looking in to Talmud, this book is the most popular book within Jewish circles, teaching Jews about Christians and their origin. 

Over ten years ago it was the number one result  on Internet when you typed the keyword Edom. I will provide fragments and the link.

Enjoy the reading, 

The Key of David, by Warder Cresson 

(Michael Boaz Israel ben Abraham)

Buy Israeli Products 

???? 

The Key of David, by Warder Cresson 

(Michael Boaz Israel ben Abraham)

Published: 1852 

Origin of Edom, Babylon, and Rome, or Christianity 

God has declared that he has "magnified his Word above all his name." (Ps. 138:2.) How very careful then should we be to give diligent heed to his Written Word.

It is, therefore, of the utmost importance that we become acquainted with the Genealogy of the Gentiles, who are Esau, or Edom, for God has declared

 "that every one of the Mount (or House) of Esau may, or shall, be cut off by slaughter," (see Obad. 9 v.,) and that "there shall not be any remaining of the House of Esau,* for the Lord has spoken it." Verse 18th.

* God confirms this and says "Amalek was first of the nations , (Amalek was son of Eliphaz, and grandson to Edom or Esau, see Gen. 36:9 and 12,) but his latter end shall be that he perish forever," (Num. 24:20,) and this corresponds with Obadiah and all the rest of the Prophets.

If these words of God be true--we cannot, and should not, spare any pains, however great, in order to ascertain who Esau, or Edom, is. See Gen. 27:30 and 36.

The Spirit of God identifies Edom with Babylon. (See Ps. 137:7 and 8.) "Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom, in the day of Jerusalem, who said Raze it, raze it," (i.e. make bare or destroy the Temple, as Edom did under the Romans,) "even to the foundation thereof." 

"O daughter of Babylon," &c. Here we see, without any possibility of mistake, that Edom is Babylon , and all sacred and profane history confirms it. Chaldea, or Babylon, was established by Assyria.

Isaiah 23:13, says, "Behold the land of the Chaldeans, this people was not till the Assyrian founded it for them. The capital of Chaldea was Babylon. The Assyrian empire embraced the country on both sides of the Tigris. 

Babel, or Babylon, was founded by Nimrod, (see Gen. x. 10,) about A. M. 3416. The Assyrians descended from Taurus, and Caucasus conquered and destroyed Jerusalem, together with Syria; and these, with Phoenicia, became the Roman Empire, and was called Chaldea; as it was in the time of Jesus under Tiberius Caesar. (See Luke 3:1.)

From the East the Chaldeans, or Romans, peopled all the west; first Italy, Rome, France, Germany, England and America. Rome was founded by Romulus, 750 B. C. After Jesus 325, Christianity became the established religion, under Constantine;* hence Babylon, Rome, Edom, and Christianity are synonymous.

* RELIGION OF MONARCHIES--"We may well say that despotism cannot be sustained without an established religion, an union of Church and State.

A government tolerating freedom of opinion in religion, must tolerate freedom of opinion in politics; for as religion comprehends duties to society as well as to God, and as rights and duties in society are correlative, freedom in religion necessarily leads to freedom in everything else. 

All great despots have understood this, and have, therefore, always endeavored to surround themselves with an "odor of sanctity," by courting a connection between religion and politics. 

For this purpose Constantine the Great professed Christianity, made it the religion of the Roman Empire; and, to counteract its free tendencies, he corrupted it with the old State religion, that Heathen Mythology in which he had been educated. 

He, therefore, converted the Pantheon into a Church, gave to all its statues of gods and demigods and goddesses the nicknames of he and she saints, stuck up an old statue of Jupiter as an image of St. Peter, and changed all the fast and feast days of the gods in the Calendar to Saints' Days.

Diana became the Virgin Mary, Venus, Mary Magdalene, and Minerva, so handy with her needle, was metamorphosed into Saint Dorcas, the patroness of sewing societies. 

Thus Christianity, which is purely spiritual, (they say,) which tolerates no idolatry, which places no human intermediaries (except Jesus) between God and man, was defiled with the grossness of the very superstitions which it was sent to dispel, to enable a crafty politician to stupefy mankind for the purpose of governing them absolutely."

History informs us that "Edom was conquered by Albianus, King of Chittim, and Edom became under the children of Chittim* from that day;" and this is the reason the Prophet Isaiah speaks, in his 23rd chapter, connectively of Edom and Chittim as one and the same place and people. (See verses 1st, 12th and 13th, and compare these with Jer. ii. 10.)†

* This explains where "the ships of Chittim shall come from," (Rome or the Roman Empire,) mentioned in Numbers 24:24.

† Kedar, a descendant of Ishmael. See Gen. 25:13.

So Rome, Edom, and Christianity became, and are, synonymous with Babylon, and therefore is called mystical Babylon;* not only because she had her rise from them, but because of her great Confusion of Tongues as took place in Babel or Babylon, which is confusion, and also from her many sects and divisions springing from that cause. 

We know too, and are certain that all Protestants first separated themselves and CAME OUT FROM ROME, or the Roman Catholics, in the 16th century, at the Reformation, (so called by Martin Luther.) So by this we see Protestants are of the seed of Rome, and Rome is of the seed of Kittim, or Chittim. See Gen. x. 1-4, and the Book of Jasher, 90 c. 8 v.

* All Protestants declare that Mystical Babylon is Rome.

The Great Wise Men and Rabbis Kimchi, Ibn-Ezra, and Maimonides, and Abarbanel, all unite with the foregoing Scripture testimony in saying, that all the Gentile Christians are the seed, or children, of Esau, or Edom, and that "the prophets did not only prophecy against the land of Edom, which is in the neighborhood of the land of Israel, but against the seed of Rome, or Edom, which is of the root, or rather children of Kittim, or Chittim.".........

http://www.jewish-history.com/Cresson/cresson25.ht...


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

I think my previous post was bit to long and has been choped by halve. This is continuation:

After  Constantine moved the seat of the Roman Empire to Constantinople, the "lost tribes of Israel" sacked Rome, and with the Fourth Crusade, in 1202, they ended the original Christianity. 

The Fourth Crusade, which was originally intended to conquer Muslim-controlled Jerusalem by means of an invasion through Egypt was organized by Rome run by the by Vandals.

Instead of attacking Jerusalem, in April 1204, the Crusaders of Western Europe invaded and conquered the Christian  city of Constantinople, capital of the new Roman Empire. 

This is seen as one of the final acts in the Great Schism between the  Christian Church of Constantinople  and Vandal's  Church of Rome.

The great historian of the Crusades, Sir Steven Runciman, wrote that the sack of Constantinople is “unparalleled in history”.

“For nine centuries,” he goes on, “the great city had been the capital of Christian civilisation. It was filled with works of art that had survived from ancient Greece and with the masterpieces of its own exquisite craftsmen.

The Venetians wherever they could seized treasures and carried them off. 

But the Frenchmen and Flemings were filled with a lust for destruction:

they rushed in a howling mob down the streets and through the houses, snatching up everything that glittered and destroying whatever they could not carry, pausing only to murder or to rape, or to break open the wine-cellars. 

Neither monasteries nor churches nor libraries were spared. 

In St Sophia itself drunken soldiers could be seen tearing down the silken hangings and pulling the silver iconostasis to pieces, while sacred books and icons were trampled under foot. 

While they drank from the altar-vessels a prostitute sang a ribald French song on the Patriarch’s throne. Nuns were ravished in their convents.

Palaces and hovels alike were wrecked. Wounded women and children lay dying in the streets. 

For three days the ghastly scenes continued until the huge and beautiful city was a shambles. Even after order was restored, citizens were tortured to make them reveal treasures they had hidden....

For the next half-century, Constantinople was the seat of the Roman - Vandal Empire.....

In 1347, the Black Death spread to Constantinople.[38] In 1453, when the Ottoman Turks captured the city, it contained approximately 50,000 people.[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople#Histor...

Ottoman Turks were the Khazars, some of the lost 10 tribes of Israel which were entirely taken away by the Assyrians to be placed across the Caucasus Mountains. 

Going back to Judah. 

In 586 B.C. Babylonians ended kingdom of Judah and exiled its entire population to Babylon. 

The empty territories had been populated by settlers from surrounding countries: Arameans, Edomites, Ammonites etc. 

In 538 B.C. Edict of Cyrus allows Jews to return and settled in and around Jerusalem. 

It wasn't until Maccabees revolt in 167 B.C. when Jews gained political independence. This events had been recorded in Catholic Bible, books of Maccabees 1 and 2.

John Hyrcanus, a son of one of the Maccabee brothers, ruled Judea from 134-104 BC. He forcibly conquered Samaria and Scythopolis. "John's wars of fire and sword were marked by massacres of city populations whose only crime was that they were Greek-speaking.

Idumea (EDOM) with its capital in Hebron, was also conquered by the Jews, and the inhabitants of its two main cities, Adora and Mariss, were forcibly converted to Judaism or slaughtered if they refused.

The following is from Josephus Antiquities 13:9:1:

"... Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; "

The descendants of Esau, Idumeans – Essenes, converted to Judaism and were truly pious believers. However, Hyracanus was succeeded by his son, Alexander Jannaeus. When some pious Idumeans - Essenes pelted him with lemons, Jannaeus's response, according to the historian Josephus, was terroristic:

"He was in a rage and slew of them about six thousand." After taking back Jerusalem he "did one of the most barbarous actions in the world for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of the entire city, he ordered about eight hundred throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes." 

The rest of Idumeans – Essenes (descendants of Esau/Edom) ended up in Qumran as prisoners until Herod the Great brought them back to Jerusalem. 

Herod who was half Arab half Idumean (Edomite) was the best king Jews ever had. He was trying to unite Jews and Idumeans, he even married Jewish princess Marianne.

However, because he was not a Jew, Jews hated him immensely and created all kind of lies about him. One of the lies is accusation of slaughter of the Innocent in Bethlehem. In fact Herod died four years before Christ was born.

“The earliest mention of the Essenes is by the Jewish philosopher 

Philo of Alexandria (c.?20–54 CE). Philo told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout Palestinian Syria [6]. Among their neighbours they were noted for their love of God and their concerns with piety, honesty, morality, philanthropy, holiness, equality, and freedom. The holy Essenes did not marry and lived a celibate life, and practiced communal residence, money, property, food and clothing. 

They observed the Sabbath according to all the strictest instructions and spent much of their time studying the Law according to philosophical and allegorical interpretations. They cherished freedom, possessed no slaves, and rejected the use of weapons or participation in commerce.” 

The Church Father Epiphanius (writing in the fourth century CE) make a distinction between two main groups within the Essenes:

[31] "Of those that came before his [Elxai, an Ossaean prophet] time and during it, the Ossaeans and the Nazarean."

St. Jerome, author of Vulgata, Catholic Bible, informs us that it was Minaeans who become later known as Nazareans.

As their name indicates Essenes were the decedents of

Esau / Edom / Idumea in Greek

The early Essenes established Christianity as a religion they used the term for the Messiah which we know as Jesus in its modern term.

Jews prosecuted the Essenes and their Christian religion because the Essenes were descendants of Esau / Edom, not of Jacob / Israel stock.

In 64 C.E. James the Just, stepbrother of Christ and leader of Jerusalem Christian church was stoned by Jews, and new period of prosecution of Christians had began.

Being afraid of  the Jews, the Christian population of Judea escaped to Pella (Flight to Pella), and settled there until Emperor Hadrian ended up the rebellions of Jews, and exiled Jews from Judea. 

Hadrian allowed Christian to settle in Judea, which he named Palestine, and protected them by the law from being prosecuted. 

Since then, Jews and Israelites lived in so called diasporas until 1946.

Smireles, do you want to know what Jews really think about the origin of Christians?


Eric Prado profile image

Eric Prado 4 years ago from Webster, Texas

Absolutely intriguing hub. I can certainly relate having made the transition to stray away from the Pagan lifestyle just recently, myself. I agree with your statements regarding reading the bible and deciding for yourself what is true of false rather than listening to word of mouth or watching the History Channel. I concur. Great hub and I voted Beautiful, awesome and voted up. =) I will also follow.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Eric Prado thank you for your comment. I am happy you have decided for yourself what is true. Many people have not yet decided what is true and what is not. God Bless you.

Michele


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Endless Sea,You said that “ when talking in parables and addressing multitudes just make it more example full you are suppose "not" to use the literary meaning. Every sentence you say and write can be formed in many meanings or simply saying any sentence in literature has more than one meaning.”that s fine,I agree with you 100% .we shouldn’t take words literary okey so why do you take it literary when the Bible says that Jesus is son of God and you stopped taking it in the same way when it comes to King David being Jesus' Father who existed 1,000 years before Jesus? Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Since GOD Almighty chose David to be His begotten Son, does this make David divine too? Ok let s move to an other one:

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Israel was GOD's Son before Jesus since Israel is the "first born". Does this make Israel divine? 2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is another name for Israel.

Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' " Again, "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that ANY "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God" as clearly shown in Psalm 82:6.

The trinitarian liars who translate the Bible into English play dirty tricks about capitalizing and lowering the "g" in "God" to prove their trinity lie, while they fully know that it is the same word used for ALL!

Let us look at John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." This is often presented from the Gospel of John to prove that Jesus was God. There are however several problems with this claim: By this verse it is assumed that Jesus was the "word" and since the word was God and became flesh, Jesus is God. The statement that John reproduced in his gospel however was uttered not by John but by A. Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus or John were born. It is therefore completely unlikely that Philo was even remotely referring to Jesus.

There is also another reason for not capitalizing the "G" in John 1:1, considering the Greek of the above verse which disproves the assertion that Jesus is referred to as God in the verse. In the verse above, the first time the word God is used, the Greek is HOTHEOS (the same exact word given to Satan as God in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The NIV Bible Author wrote "god" for Satan instead of "God"), which means The God. The second time the word God is used,"....and the word was God," the word for God is TONTHEOS, which means "a god". Europeans have evolved a system of capital and small letters non-existent in Greek. The God, HOTHEOS is translated as God with a capital G, whereas Tontheos, which means A or ANY God is translated with a small g, god. In this case however, we see the unlawful translators trying to prove Jesus being God by putting capital G for both whereas it doesn't belong in the case of the "word".

Here is how 2 Corinthians 4:4 is read in the current English translation of the NIV Bible:

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Corinthians 4:4)"

It should've been written as "The God of this age....." since the same Greek word was used for Jesus in describing him for being a "God".

The "Son of GOD" title that was given to Jesus wasn't the only title for him. Jesus was also called "Son of David." Keep in mind that Jesus came at least 1,000 years after King David. Jesus was also called "Son of Man". See Matthew 1:1, Matthew 9:27, Matthew 12:23, Matthew 15:22, Matthew 20:30-31, Matthew 22:42, and many other verses.

Is the Man whom Jesus was called his son (possibly David) divine? Is David divine since Jesus is his Son?

How come Christian Roman Catholics have created the Theological Science of Maryology, and never created the Theological Science of Davidology? I mean think about it, if Jesus the "Almighty GOD" was called "Son of David", then shouldn't this make David a divine person, since he is one from the many billions that GOD created in this world?

Jesus was called:

Son of GOD

Son of David

Son of Man

The following is from the work of Sheikh Ahmed Deedat; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Let us look at John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." This is often presented from the Gospel of John to prove that Jesus was God. There are however several problems with this claim: By this verse it is assumed that Jesus was the "word" and since the word was God and became flesh, Jesus is God. The statement that John reproduced in his gospel however was uttered not by John but by A. Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus or John were born. It is therefore completely unlikely that Philo was even remotely referring to Jesus.

There is also another reason for not capitalizing the "G" in John 1:1, considering the Greek of the above verse which disproves the assertion that Jesus is referred to as God in the verse. In the verse above, the first time the word God is used, the Greek is HOTHEOS (the same exact word given to Satan as God in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The NIV Bible Author wrote "god" for Satan instead of "God"), which means The God. The second time the word God is used,"....and the word was God," the word for God is TONTHEOS, which means "a god". Europeans have evolved a system of capital and small letters non-existent in Greek. The God, HOTHEOS is translated as God with a capital G, whereas Tontheos, which means A or ANY God is translated with a small g, god. In this case however, we see the unlawful translators trying to prove Jesus being God by putting capital G for both whereas it doesn't belong in the case of the "word".

Here is how 2 Corinthians 4:4 is read in the current English translation of the NIV Bible:

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Corinthians 4:4)"

It should've been written as "The God of this age....." since the same Greek word was used for Jesus in describing him for being a "God".


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Well,you asked me if I ever read The Bible,yes I did.. many times and everytime I read it I discover a new lie or weird thing or something to make me laughing for a couple of days:

Matthew 27: 50-53:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the gravesafter his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

How interesting indeed I mean no offence ? a group of dead people rose from their graves and walked through Jerusalem.Should we take this metaphorically? does it have other meaning?The truth can’t be divided!well,Give me a minute to draw that Hollywood horror scene in my mind uhmm okey I m done,perfectly …dead people raised from the graves and walked into Jerusalem, basically like zombies!

However sadly for Christians is that this story causes many problems because this incident has never been recorded in any history book concerning Jerusalem. One would think that dead people walking through Jerusalem would be recorded by a ton of sources, yet it is not recorded in a single historical record, talk about a fable!

Let us see what Christian commentators had to say about this incident:

The Adam Clarke Commentary:

Verse 52. And the graves were opened

By the earthquake; and many bodies of saints which slept, i.e. were dead, sleep being a common expression for death in the Scriptures.

Verse 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection

Not BEFORE, as some have thought, for Christ was himself the FIRST FRUITS of them who slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20. The graves were opened at his death, by the earthquake, and the bodies came out at his resurrection.

And appeared unto many.

Thus establishing the truth of our Lord's resurrection in particular, and of the resurrection of the body in general, by many witnesses. Quesnel's reflections on these passages may be very useful. "1. The veil being rent shows that his death is to put an end to the figurative worship, and to establish the true religion. 2. The earthquake, that this dispensation of the Gospel is to make known through the earth the judgments of God against sin and sinners. 3. The rocks being rent declare that the sacrifice of Christ is to make way for the grace of repentance. 4. The graves being opened, that it is to destroy the death of sin, and confer the life grace on sinners. 5. The rising of the bodies of the saints shows that this death of Christ is to merit, and his Gospel publish, the eternal happiness of body and soul for all that believe in his name."

It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned Matthew 27:52,53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes; others think that the simple meaning is this:-by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city. Why the graves should be opened on Friday, and the bodies not be raised to life till the following Sunday, is difficult to be conceived. The place is extremely obscure.

So note the problems that Christians faced with this passage, they had such problems with it some have said that these 2 verses may have been added by Nazarenes, others said that the bodies were simply thrown out by the earthquake and people saw the dead bodies. However that explanation is useless and does not reflect the text, the text says the people in the graves ROSE, it does not say they were thrown out, and it also goes on to say that the these dead people went into Jerusalem, meaning they walked there. Or do some Christians suggest that these dead saints were thrown out of their grave from the gravesite into Jerusalem city! Flying dead men!!!!!! Hillarious!

John Lightfoot Commentary on the Gospels:

52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

[And many bodies of saints which slept arose.] You can hardly impute the rending of the hangings to the earthquake, but it must be ascribed rather to another peculiar miracle; since it is more proper for an earthquake to break hard things than soft, and to rend rocks rather than curtains. Rocks were rent by it in those places where sepulchres had been built, so that now the gates of the resurrection were thrown open, the bonds of the grave were unloosed, and the bodies of dead men were made ready, as it were, for their rising again when Christ, the firstfruits, was raised. The Jews had a fancy that the kingdom of the Messias would begin with the resurrection of the dead, as we have noted before; vainly indeed, as to their sense of it; but not without some truth, as to the thing itself: for from the resurrection of Christ the glorious epoch of the kingdom of God took its beginning, as we said before (which he himself also signifieth in those words Matthew 26:29); and when he arose, not a few others arose with him. What they thought of the resurrection that was to be in the days of Messias, besides those things which we have already mentioned, you may see and smile at in this one example: "R. Jeremiah commanded, 'When you bury me, put shoes on my feet, and give me a staff in my hand, and lay me on one side; that when the Messias comes I may be ready.'"

So basically these Christians believe dead people walked through Jerusalem. How interesting indeed.

The war in Heaven

This is one my favorite parts in the Bible, from the book of Revelations, where the dragon enters heaven and wages war with the angels! It is a classic fairy tale from a magical world, here are the verses:

Revelations 12: 1-9

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Wow, that is a great magical fairy tale wouldn’t you say.

A lot of wonderful fables there, first you have the lady who actually wears the sun as a dress! and the moon are her shoes! and the stars are her crown! Wow! What a nice dress style, that must be the dress style that will come in the next 10,000 years if we are to remain alive.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

And this is a veyr funny story, a group of trees voted for a king! The demorcacy of the trees! hahaha

Judge 9: 7-16

And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you. 8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. 9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honor God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 10And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. 11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? 12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. 13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. 15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon. 16 Now therefore, if ye have done truly and sincerely, in that ye have made Abimelech king, and if ye have dealt well with

Jerubbaal and his house, and have done unto him according to the deserving of his hands;

You see here ? the trees are asking for a king over them, and they communicate with other trees, how funny is this story, this is something the kids would enjoy a lot hahaha

Adam Clarke commentary of the Bible

Verse 8. The trees went forth on a time

This is the oldest, and without exception the best fable or apologue in the world. See the observations at the end of this chapter.

It is not to be supposed that a fable, if well formed, requires much illustration; every part of this, a few expressions excepted, illustrates itself, and tells its own meaning.

To anoint a king

Hence it appears that anointing was usual in the installation of kings, long before there was any king in Israel; for there is much evidence that the book of Judges was written before the days of Saul and David.

The olive tree

The olive was the most useful of all the trees in the field or forest, as the bramble was the meanest and the most worthless.

Verse 9. Wherewith-they honour God and man

I believe the word elohim here should be translated gods, for the parable seems to be accommodated to the idolatrous state of the Shechemites. Thus it was understood by the Vulgate, Arabic, and others. It is true that olive oil was often used in the service of God: the priests were anointed with it; the lamps in the tabernacle lighted with it; almost all the offerings of fine flour, cakes prepared in the pan, oil mingled with them; therefore Jotham might say that with it they honour God; and as priests, prophets, and kings were anointed, and their office was the most honourable, he might with propriety say, therewith they honour man. But I am persuaded he used the term in the first sense. See on Judges 9:13.

Verse 11. But the fig tree said-Should I forsake my sweetness

The fruit of the fig tree is the sweetest or most luscious of all fruits. A full-ripe fig, in its own climate, has an indescribable sweetness; so much so that it is almost impossible to eat it, till a considerable time after it is gathered from the trees, and has gone through an artificial preparation. This I have often noticed.

Verse 13. Which cheereth God and man

I believe elohim here is to be taken in the same sense proposed on Judges 9:9. Vast libations of wine, as well as much oil, were used in heathenish sacrifices and offerings; and it was their opinion that the gods actually partook of, and were delighted with, both the wine and oil. The pagan mythology furnishes the most exquisite wines to its gods in heaven, and hence the nectar and ambrosia so much talked of and praised by the ancients. It is not reasonable to suppose that Jotham makes any reference here to the sacrifices, oblations, and perfumes offered to the true God. This language the idolatrous Shechemites could scarcely understand. What could the worshippers of Baal-berith know of the worship of the God who gave his law to Moses? And it is not very likely that Jotham himself was well acquainted with the sacred rites of the Mosaic religion, as they had been little preached in his time.

Verse 14. Then said all the trees unto the bramble

The word atad, which we translate bramble, is supposed to mean the rhamnus, which is the largest of thorns, producing dreadful spikes, similar to darts. See Theodoret on Psalms 58:10.

There is much of the moral of this fable contained in the different kinds of trees mentioned. 1. The olive; the most profitable tree to its owner, having few equals either for food or medicine. 2. The fig tree; one of the most fruitful of trees, and yielding one of the most delicious fruits, and superior to all others for sweetness. 3. The vine, which alone yields a liquor that, when properly prepared, and taken in strict moderation, is friendly both to the body and mind of man, having a most direct tendency to invigorate both. 4. The bramble or thorn, which, however useful as a hedge, is dangerous to come near; and is here the emblem of an impious, cruel, and oppressive king. As the olive, fig, and vine, are said in this fable to refuse the royalty, because in consequence, they intimate, they should lose their own privileges, we learn that to be invested with power for the public good can be no privilege to the sovereign. If he discharge the office faithfully, it will plant his pillow with thorns, fill his soul with anxious cares, rob him of rest and quiet, and, in a word, will be to him a source of distress and misery. All this is represented here under the emblem of the trees losing their fatness, their sweetness and good fruits, and their cheering influence. In short, we see from this most sensible fable that the beneficent, benevolent, and highly illuminated mind, is ever averse from the love of power; and that those who do seek it are the thoughtless, the vain, the ambitious, and those who wish for power merely for the purpose of self-gratification; persons who have neither the disposition nor the knowledge to use power for the advantage of the community; and who, while they boast great things, and make great pretensions and promises, are the tyrants of the people, and often through their ambition, like the bramble in the fable kindle a flame of foreign or domestic war, in which their subjects are consumed.

The sleepless nights and corroding cares of sovereignty, are most forcibly described by a poet of our own, whose equal in describing the inward workings of the human heart, in all varieties of character and circumstances, has never appeared either in ancient or modern times. Hear what he puts in the mouth of two of his care-worn kings:-

"How many thousand of my poorest subjects Are at this hour asleep?-Sleep, gentle sleep, Nature's soft nurse! how have I frighted thee, That thou no more wilt weigh my eyelids down, And steep my senses in forgetfulness? Why rather, sleep, liest thou in smoky cribs, Upon uneasy pallets stretching thee, And hush'd with buzzing night-flies to thy slumber Than in the perfumed chambers of the great, Under the canopies of costly state, And lull'd with sounds of sweetest melody? O thou dull god! why liest thou with the vile In loathsome beds; and leav'st the kingly couch A watch-case, or a common 'larum bell? Wilt thou upon the high and giddy mast Seal up the ship-boy's eyes, and rock his brains In cradle of the rude imperious surge; And in the visitation of the winds, Who take the ruffian billows by the top, Curling their monstrous heads and hanging them, With deafening clamours, in the slippery clouds, That, with the hurly, death itself awakes? Canst thou, O partial sleep! give thy repose To the wet sea-boy, in an hour so rude; And, in the calmest and most stillest night, With all appliances and means to boot


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Endless Sea,one final word I was talking to you scientifically and you TALKED TO ME LITERATURALLY" Even the greatest work of literature you seem to adore so much tells us that when talking in parables and addressing multitudes just make it more example full you are suppose "not" to use the literary meaning. Every sentence you say and write can be formed in many meanings or simply saying any sentence in literature has more than one meaning" For God's sake is science literature???? to put it in simple words 1+1=2 not Shakespear and no need for second comment!it makes no sense and it s sth like a shoot in your leg.BE CAREFUL NEXT TIME!


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele, the Bible is truly recorded even devil did lied. Those who judge Word of God will be judged according what they deserve. One must find the truth which set us free John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed; 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Please refuse to listen liars.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

SRY I COME AGAIN i am asking you not to read Quran but listen to the recitation from the net,you can close your heart but just open your ears,that s all.I dare you if you say you feel nothing!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Vladimir Uhri,why couldn't you spit it outbefor when you said'Some religion(why do you use some here,you wanted to decieve people huh?!no flies on me.I KNOW IT BEFOR but hadnt time to reply you but thanks now you plucked enough courage and you say it: lairs once again why S ? I M NOT PLURAL AS UR God .I m singular just say lair ? )is teaching if one is good more than 50% he will go to heaven. This is false teaching and religion. Knowing something from Bible is not enough.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

i am asking u did the concept of original sin existed during the early followers of jesus or did Jesus teach it?

Apparently not. Whoever dreamt up the concept, it certainly wasn’t Jesus, for he reportedly taught,

“Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:14)

We may well wonder how “for of such” could be “the kingdom of heaven” if the unbaptized are hell?bound. Children are either born with original sin or are bound for the kingdom of heaven. The church can’t have it both ways. Ezekiel 18:20 records,

“The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 repeats the point. The objection may be raised that this is Old Testament, but it’s not older than Adam! If original sin dated from Adam and Eve, one wouldn’t find it disavowed in any scripture of any age!

Islam teaches that each person is born in a state of spiritual purity, but upbringing and the allure of worldly pleasures may corrupt us. Nonetheless, sins are not inherited and, for that matter, not even Adam and Eve will be punished for their sins, for God has forgiven them. And how can humankind inherit something that no longer exists? No, Islamicly speaking, all of us will be judged according to our deeds, for

“…man can have nothing but what he strives for” (Quran 53:38–39)

…and

“Who receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit: who goes astray does so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another ...” (Quran 17:15)

Each person will bear responsibility for his or her actions, but no infant goes to hell for being unbaptized and burdened with sin as a birthright—or should we say a birthwrong?


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

Trinity doctrine doesn't have basic in either NT nor in OT. They depend on human interpretation to form up this doctrine it is totally pagan.

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism."

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and engrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

Many of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity which have been for many centuries taken on blind faith (those which differ from the beliefs of Muslims) are now beginning to be challenged by some of the foremost scholars and religious leaders of Christianity today.

An example of this can be found in the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read that a British television pole of 31 of the 39 Anglican Bishops in England found 19 to believe that it is not necessary for Christians to believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, but only "His supreme agent" (his messenger) as taught by Muslims for 1400 years now and testified to by John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you hast sent."

John.17

Go and read a lot and drop away ur zero tolerance!


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 4 years ago from Alabama

michelle.. :) thanks.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadan, can you tell me please:

- what is Hadith

- what makes Hadith "weak or strong"

- who were the Hadith's writers

- when was the last Hadith written


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius. Do you know how much Jesus loves you? He is an awesome and gave His life for you. He never broke the Law and therefore He could not permanently die. He went down - down as Jonas under (the water) mountains to the center of the earth suffered for your sin and defeated Satan on the head. Nobody can love you as He does.

Do you know your God never can do that?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Revengadown, 

Regarding Esau in Quranic verses, 

If there is no difference in the original name of Christ and Esau, then how do you know that Sura 4 : 163 does not speak about Esau,  son of Prophet Isaac and son in law of Prophet Ishmael ?

SURAH 4 reads:

163. Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad ) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms).

It looks like we do have two Prophets in the Holly Quran called by the name Iesa: 

Prophet Iesa (PBUH) - the first born and beloved son of Prophet Ishaque (PBUH), who was also the son in law of Prophet Isma’il (PBUH);

and the second prophet, Prophet Iesa (PBUH), the son of Maryam.

Look at this chart:

Prophet Ayub (PBUH) – son of Zerah

Zerah son of Reul (also called Moze) 

Reul - the first Ishmaelite (name meaning - Friend of Allah) – son of Basemath

Prophet Iesa (PBUH) who married Princess Basemath (daughter of Prophet Isma’il)

Prophet Ishaque (PBUH) Prophet Isma’il (PBUH) - sons of Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH)

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH)

Ahmeed Deedat admitted that Isa was also Esau, : 

Ahmad Deedat wrote: 

``The Holy Quran refers to Jesus as "Eesa", and this name is used more times than any other title, because this was his "Christian" name. 

Actually, his proper name was "Eesa" (Arabic), or "Esau". (Hebrew); classical "Yeheshua", which the Christian nations of the West Latinised as Jesus. Neither the "J" nor the second "s" in the name Jesus is to be found in the original tongue - they are not found in the Semitic language. 

The word is very simply - "E S A U" - a very common Jewish name, used more than sixty times in the very first booklet alone of the Bible, in the part called "Genesis". 

In fact, Jesus is not the name of Christ.

There was at least one "Jesus" sitting on the "bench" at the trial of Christ before the Sanhedrin. Josephus the Jewish historian mentions some twenty five Jesus' in his "Book of Antiquities". The New Testament speaks of "Bar-Jesus"- a magician and a sorcerer, a false prophet (Act 13:6); and also "Jesus-Justus" - a Christian missionary, a contemporary of Paul (Colossians 4:11). These are distinct from "Jesus" the son of Mary. 

Transforming "Esau" to (J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique name has gone out of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century after Christ.

The Muslim will not hesitate to name his son - "Eesa" - because it is an honoured name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.'' (Ahmad Deedat, Christ in Islam, Chapter 2) 

Have also look Revengadown at this movie:

“The real name of Jesus Christ” - Ahmad Deedat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3YLp...eature=rela...


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Something wrong with the link,

This is the updated one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3YLpzHURW4


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

OK. Vlad,

In truth I believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

My God is the same God as God of Adam, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Esau, Eliphaz, Zophar, Job,   Mary mother of Christ and multitudes of others.

BTW Vlad, do you know that Slovakia received Christianity from Byzantine Christian Empire, and not from Vandal Roman Empire?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius. There were many names Yeshuvah in Jewish communities and many were crucified. Only one came back from the death. *** Anyone can write the book and say it is holy book. But according to fruit we know who that man is. Today many are turning to Jesus like 6000 daily it bother Muslim friends, reported by AlJazeera. It happens in Africa, Asia and in South America.


Martus 4 years ago

Michele, you are doing an advantageous ministry by permitting this hub to continue.Thanks.

Both, readers as well as contributors , we are witnessing to a clash of futile oposition to the Truth revealed by the Mostt High God through His Son the Lord Jesus the Anointed One operating by/through the Holy Spirit via "Christians."

To Sagittarius 2012 : Your statement :"They ended the original Christianity" is one of the meaningless statement one can figure out. You as wel rest of you on the " opposite" need to know that the "origin of Christianity" will N E V E R end. The name Christianity is " Enlglisized" Greek origin ?????????? a name given to the DISCIPLES of Christ-- the ANOINTED ONE. The literal translation means Christans-- THE ANOINTED ONES for the reason manifested identical deeds of presen Kingdom of God started by the Master earlie. The ALL his followers were performing in the Supernatural. This "Christianity" never ended and never will come yo an end. Presently not all members of "Christian religion" are performing under the Anointing-- it's comming!

Secondly your question to s m I r e l e s: "do you want to know what Jews really think abou origin of Christianity?". Com on man,-- don't pretend that you are " all knowing" . " The "All knowing" is only One His name is "Y'hovah" self--existent,Eternal GOD, and what He knows about what Jews really think... Is not what you've read about. this vain phraseology is the least to say-- useless . Once you'll repent ,--well you' ll start to know better. You'll start to operate in this God-given gift of faith, since without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. ( Heb.11:6)

Just look around and see the believers reward.

This word ??????????? consists of two orig. words ??????= pay for service (lit.or fig.) good or bad:-- recompense or reward. ????????? ==means to give away, up over, back, etc.( in various applications):-- deliver ( again) , give ( again), ( re ) pay (--meant be made), perform, recompense , render, require, restore, reward, sell ,yielde.

Our God is only God proving his communication with His children-- believers. Any other called--made--named by a man is not proving himself because d o e s NOT exists.

As long as comments continue the evidence of spreading Word of God is is prowling that " His Word will not return to Him empty...( Isa. 55: 10.11 ).


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Hello Martus, I did not say "They ended the original Christianity" This is what I did say. Many people were crucified. However, there Jesus Christ's resurrection was true. Because after he was crucified, His follower's went into hiding. Then he rose from the dead. After that, those men who were in hiding came out. After seeing Him, talking to Him, touching Him, they changed. They were willing to give up their lives to follow Him. He was worth more then anything on earth. He is the Son of God. If He had not risen from the dead, would they have come out of hiding? I don't think so. Christianity would have died with Him. But it did not. That is why Christians are here today. CHRISTIANITY WOULD HAVE DIED WITH THEM, BUT IT DID NOT! I did type in capital letters because that means so much a lot to me. God Bless you.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Michele I totally understand what you wanted to say about.. The reason why Pagans changed into Christians and the addition of some culture of Pagans in Christianity. It is and interesting hub and was very interesting and amazing to read. What I do hate is people making issue over some thing not even belonging to hub like "talks over the better GOD" the "end of Christianity" I believe some folks can't take every thing straight just as it is. At least am happy to be taught to respect other people and not create issues over such small and useless thing. Keep believing what you do even if you or I were to prove anything here no one will change their believe just cause 2 or 3 people fought over it. I would very much appreciate if we could end the useless debate and instead appreciate the work of author for providing such useful and interesting info.

GOD bless us all.

thank you. Peace


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

martus, please forgive me. I misunderstood what you wrote. You did not write that I said " They ended Christianity"


Martus 4 years ago

Mchele, this is very strange: " they ended original Christianity" comes from Sagitarius 2012 comment. I was looking at his answer he was giving to smireles, and that is missing too. I am getting corrected for words quoted which are not appearing any more. In different wordings, my writing " Christianity never ended and never will , AGREE WITH YOU ENTIRELY. We are on the same team. So far there was not any disagreement issued against your writings. Well...

God bless you too.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you endless sea it has been interesting, I had no idea what would happen when I wrote this hub. One thing that has happened, is that I have learned many thing That, has made my belief in Christianity stronger. The dead sea scrolls were amazing! If Jesus Chris had not risen from the dead, where would Christianity be today? Things like that.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Martus God Bless you also, and yes we do agree. I am glad we are on the same team. I do make mistakes. You were correct.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Amen Michele.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

We should avoid to write in Hebrew or Greek since HubPages do not copy right except ??????.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Martus, good comment. But Sagittarius does not know that God Elohim and Allah are not the same. Then we can see how religion can confuse us.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Glory to God our Elohim YHVH. The revival is here. People get set free from sin, unbelief, sicknesses and diseases. Miracles are seen. Only living God can do this. People are full of joy and redeemed. Hallelujah. Did I tell you that one Shake was healed by power of the Lord and became Christian? Glory to God. I love Him from my whole heart. He healaed me from colon cancer 25 years ago. Recently from malignant cancer with metastases to the bones. All vanished. Symptoms gone! Hallelujah. Then I was healed of incurable neuropathy. Now from arthroza of joint I could not play guitar.

There is no One like our GOD.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, they don't. HubPages only lets you write in english.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Martus,

this hub is concerned with the question: why pagans change in to Christians. This is not theological but historical question .

To answer this question we have to look in to history of Christianity and its origin, in to facts not opinions.

If you don't agree with some of my statements then we debate them and find the true, or at least learn something.

My response to Smirless was more about origin of Gentiles who became Christians, not so much about God of Israel, and the Jews who prosecute true Christians in the name of their God.

Vlad,

My God is God of peace and friendship, obviously, your God, the God of wars, you and your Jewish comrades are worshiping is not my God.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, my father died over 10 years ago. However, before that he was diagnosed with colon cancer. He had it, with all the tests!. We all prayed, the family, the church. When the doctors opened him up, it was gone! Just gone! The closed him up. Let the cut heal and sent him home. They told us they had no idea what happened. There was nothing there. We knew what happened. God took the cancer away. We thanked God. God healed him.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

yeah! I have been a archeology lover but was not much updated about pagans I just read Bible and learned everything my Pastor taught me. So it was very helpful here it even made me stronger in Christ and told me many things I din't knew. I am always looking forward to learn more. :)

I have written a worship song. I'll be publishing soon Hope you all will see it.


endless sea profile image

endless sea 4 years ago from Lucknow(U.P.) India

Amen to GOD!! Michele may GOD bless you!! and may HE bless us all. :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

endless sea archeology and the bible go together so well it is wonderful! The bible is so amazing, the earth is not flat, the city of Dan! I loved it when they found the city of Dan. Lol, that was my dad's name :)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

endless sea God Bless you!


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius, the faith is present tense, now. The same is with love. We do not owe the past, neither future but we will have future as a gift form good God. But we learn from the past.

Lord bless you Michele.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Sagittaruis,You mean the one who is mentioned there is Esau ,the first born and beloved son of Prophet Ishaque (peace be upon him), who was also the son in law of Prophet Isma’il (peace be upon him) so we have here an other prophet as you said?so we have two prophets?two Messiahs?who said that?Ahmed Deedat????It seems you like to copy and paste,you havnt used your loaf enough as british say cause it doesnt fit what we are talking about!.Ahmed Deedat was explaining the Latin name ‘Jesus ‘ not saying that Esau is the first born and beloved son of Prophet Ishaque in that verse .you proved nothing and your argument is groundless.It s hard for you to trick me, but it s worthtrying hahaha and I m going to tell you something else ,there are two other names of the prophet peace be upon him which are mentioned in the Quran: Ahmed and Taha ,so that will make us Muslims have three prophets of Islam not 2 of “Christianity”?haha and why cant you say that God has Two sons as David being his beloved begotten son?why do you take son of God title which was attributed to Jesus and kicked away the same title when it comes to David?why double standard?? wake up ,use your mind,don’t put trust on Google.the hole you dug ,you fell on it.Furthermore,If that was true as you guessed ,we Muslims would have known it already.there is no prophet mentioned only once in Quran.there are 25 prophets peace be upon them in Quran,here is the list:

1. Adam

2. Idris ( perhaps is not Enoch of Bible,this is my and some other opinions !)

3. Nuh (Noah)

4. Hud

5. Saleh

6. Ibrahim (Abraham)

7. Isma'il (Ishmael)

8. Ishaq (Isaac)

9. Lut (Lot)

10. Ya'qub (Jacob)

11. Yousef (Joseph)

12. Shu'aib

13. Ayyub (Job)

14. Musa (Moses)

15. Harun (Aaron)

16. Dhu'l-kifl (Ezekiel)

17. Dawud (David)

18. Sulaiman (Solomon)

19. Ilias (Elias)

20. Al-Yasa (Elisha)

21. Yunus (Jonah)

22. Zakariyya (Zechariah)

23. Yahya (John)

24. Isa (Jesus)

25. Mohamed

Plus you should know the reason the God sent th verse you mentioned:

Muhammad bin Ishaq narrated that Muhammad bin Abi Muhammad said that Ikrimah, or Sa`id bin Jubayr, related to Ibn Abbas that he said,

"Sukayn and Adi bin Zayd said, `O Muhammad! We do not know that Allah sent down anything to any human after Musa.'

Allah sent down a rebuttal of their statement, (Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad) as We inspired Nuh and the Prophets after him).''

Allah states that He sent down revelation to His servant and Messenger Muhammad just as He sent down revelation to previous Prophets.

Now let me give you some informations about “ true christains’I read you talking about the origion word of christains or Christ but befor that let me clarify something for you,it won’t take me long but it s worth pausing and read;)what you don’t know is that In the early “ Christianity” there were a number of Christian groups - not just the followers of Paul. Some of the beliefs of these Christians were remarkably similar to what the Qur'an says about Jesus (peace be with him).

The Qur'an says about Jesus that he was the Messiah (eg. Qur'an 3:45), was born of a virgin (eg. Qur'an 19:20), and of course that he was only a human being, not God (eg. Qur'an 4:171). He also confirmed Jewish Law (eg. Qur'an 5:49). If these claims of the Qur'an are true, you would expect that some of the followers of Jesus (peace be with him) would also have held these beliefs.

So, these four beliefs again are that Jesus (peace be with him) was 1. the Messiah, 2. born of a virgin, 3. a human being, not God, and 4. confirmed Jewish Law. Therefore, the true hisorical followers of Jesus (p.), according to the Qur'an, would follow all poinst 1-4.

Most present day Trinitarian Christians accept 1 and 2, but they reject 3 and 4, because they believe Jesus was God, and they reject following Jewish Law.

Other early Christians, however, believed like Muslims in all points 1-4. According to the Qur'anic account, therefore, it is these "Jewish Christians" who were the true followers of Jesus (p.) The earliest account we have of them is in fact in the New Testament, in the Book of Acts. This was the church established in Jerusalem, and headed at first by the Apostle Peter, and then by James, Jesus' brother. This church followed Jewish Law, according to the Book of Acts. The Gospel according to Matthew in the New Testament also quotes Jesus (p.) as stating that people must follow Jewish Law until the end of time, in Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus (p.) says he will reject those who call on him but do not do the will of "my Father in Heaven," i.e. who do not follow Jewish Law, in Matthew 7:21-23.

Here also is what one book says about some of these early Jewish Christians:

Within a few decades of Jesus' death, the Christian movement split into two factions: the followers of Paul, who believed that Christianity was a new religion completely separate from Judaism; and the Jewish Christians, who held that Christians should continue to adhere to the traditional religious practices of the Jews. The Pauline party developed into orthodox Catholicism. A group of Jewish Christians, who became known as the Ebionites, survived as a heresy.

There were two schools of thought within the Ebionite movement. One group, known as the Nazarenes, claimed that Jesus was the Messiah, born of a virgin. [...]

The doctrinal position of the Ebionites overlapped the beliefs of the Jews and orthodox Christians, and caused them to be condemned by both. In turn, the Ebionites regarded the Jews as unenlightened and damned Paul as the first Christian heretic. The sect proclaimed that most of the scriptures the Catholics revered were not authentic. [...]

[From "Crimes of Perception: An Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics," by Leonard George (Paragon House, New York, 1995), under "Ebionites."]

So, we find that a section of the early Jewish Christians, the Nazarenes, believed that Jesus (peace be with him) was the Messiah, and was born of a virgin. I have read elsewhere that they rejected that Jesus (peace be with him) was God. Therefore, their beliefs seem to be very close to what the Qur'an proclaims about Jesus (peace be with him). The Nazarenes, according to the above passage, considered Paul to be a heretic, and considered that most of the scriptures the Catholics revered ( probably most of the New Testament) were not authentic.

By the way, just as a point of interest, the word used in the Quran for Christians is "Nasara" (plural) or "Nasrani" (singular), which is very close to "Nazarene."

I suggest that, based on what we know in the Qur'an, a section of these early Jewish Christians, who believed that 1. Jesus (peace be upon him) was the Messiah, 2. born of a virgin, 3. not God, but a man, and 4. who followed Jewish Law, were the true followers of Jesus, peace be upon him.

Now let s enjoy the story of Mary and Jesus or Esau or isa or Iesa peace be upon him:)

Surah 3, Ayat 42-63:

42 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.

43 O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).

44 This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Mohammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).

45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

46 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.

47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. if He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Injeel(Gospel).

49 And will make him a messenger unto the children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo!


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

For definition of Hadith check the following it could answer 3 first question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

The last hadith is when he was talking to His wife Aicha my Allah exalts her mention befor he died


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revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,I sorry for your loss and GOD CAN ANSWER THE PRAYER OR WITHOUT PRAYER HE CAN CURE AND MAKE MIRACLES. THAT can happen anytime and everywhere when God want.Being a believer or unbeliever doesnt matter HIM. God s compassion covers everyone .in our religion THERE IS HADITH SAHIH WHICH SAYS that God is using in this world only like 1 PER CENT OF HIS MERCY AND 99 are kept for US humanity IN the THE DAY OF JUDGMENT


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

We have very difficult problem here, my people and friends. This problem is chaos. Many people do not have guide for discernment and it is Holy Spirit to divide Scriptures (The Bible rightly). The point here is the TRUTH. Today popular religion New Age which is redressed Hindu religion. The purpose is to destroy Christianity and subsequently Jewish people. Both Christianity and Jewish religion have the same root in God Elohim. It is Satanic inspired thing of destruction. There is literature flooded with opinion, guessing, the people cannot find the truth among piles of lies. Who will not find the truth is going to be lost forever. Oh, boys, the eternity is not fun it is endless like being in solitary and the same time with evil spirits around which is worse scenario we can even imagine. Please do not believe of religion, opinion and the lies. Fallow the Bible only and we will help as much we can to teach.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

There are only true Biblical prophets and it is. I am writing Hub about qualifications of prophets. The Bible was ended and book was closed (Daniel 12) with the Book of Revelation and in the Bible is everything what we need to know. God is healing our body but in the name of Jesus by faith. That's it all my friends.


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revengadown 4 years ago

Bible is unrelaible and corrupted,and mostly filled with menmade laws and lies.Go and read Shakespear is better for you.you dont dare to lift a finger and point me direcly.show me what you go and i will show you what i got,this is the way how things go heret!prove me something!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

What about the city of Dan? Do you remember the city of Dan?


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

reven the Bible is my Book, not Shakespeare writing. You are blaspheming.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

The city of Dan is in several books of the bible. Even though Dan was my father's name,( which is one of the reasons I loved it) there is also an amazing amount of information in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have had the greatest Biblical impact. They have provided Old Testament manuscripts approximately 1,000 years older than our previous oldest manuscript. The Dead Sea Scrolls have demonstrated that the Old Testament was accurately transmitted during this interval. In addition, they provide a wealth of information on the times leading up to, and during, the life of Christ.

—Dr. Bryant Wood, archaeologist, Associates for Biblical Research

Discovery of the Scrolls

Men of Qumran and the Messiah

Juma was beginning to get nervous. Some of his goats were climbing too high up the cliffs. He decided to climb the face of the cliff himself to bring them back. Little did Juma realize as he began his climb on that January day in 1947 that those straying goats would eventually involve him in “the greatest archaeological discovery in the twentieth century.” Such thoughts were far from his mind when he saw two small openings to one of the thousands of caves that dot those barren cliffs overlooking the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea.

He threw a rock into one of the openings. The unexpected cracking sound surprised him; what else could be in those remote caves but treasure? He called to his cousins, Khalil and Muhammed, who climbed up and heard the exciting tale. But it was getting late, and the goats had to be gathered. Tomorrow they would return—perhaps their days of following goats would come to an end once the treasure was uncovered!

Cave 4 at Qumran where approximately 15,000 fragments from some 574 manuscripts were found.

The youngest of the three, Muhammed, rose the next day before his two fellow “treasure-seekers” and made his way to the cave. The cave floor was covered with debris, including broken pottery. Along the wall stood a number of narrow jars, some with their bowl-shaped covers still in place. Frantically, Muhammed began to explore the inside of each jar, but no treasure of gold was to be found… only a few bundles wrapped in cloth and greenish with age. Returning to his cousins, he related the sad news—no treasure.

No treasure indeed! The scrolls those Bedouin boys removed from that dark cave that day and the days following would come to be recognized as the greatest manuscript treasure ever found—the first seven manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls!

Such was the discovery of a group of manuscripts which were a thousand years older than the then-oldest-known Hebrew texts of the Bible (manuscripts, many of which were written more than 100 years before the birth of Jesus). These manuscripts would excite the archaeological world and provide a team of translators with a gigantic task that even to this day has not been completed.

The story of how those scrolls traveled from the hands of young Bedouin goat herders to be under the scrutinous eyes of international scholars is stranger than fiction. Although all the details of the next few years will probably never be known for sure, this much is clear. After hanging from a pole in a Bedouin tent for a period of time, the seven original scrolls were sold to two separate Arab antiquities dealers in Bethlehem. From there, four were sold (for a small amount) to Athanasius Samuel, Syrian Orthodox Metropolitan at St. Mark's Monastery in the Old City of Jerusalem. Scholars at the American School of Oriental Research, who examined them, were the first to realize their antiquity. John Trever photographed them in detail, and the great archaeologist William F. Albright soon announced that the scrolls were from the period between 200 BC and AD 200. The initial announcements were then made that the oldest manuscripts ever discovered had been found in the Judean desert!

Clay jar of the type the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in. From Qumran, now in the Citadel Museum, Jordan.

Three of the other original scrolls found by the Bedouin boys were sold to E. L. Sukenik, archaeologist at Hebrew University and father of Yigal Yadin (a general in the Israeli army who later became a famous archaeologist and excavator of Masada and Hazor). It should be noted that the drama of these events was heightened because these were the last days of the British Mandate period in Palestine, and tensions between the Arab and Jewish population were great. This made examination of the scrolls by scholars extremely dangerous.

All of the scrolls finally came together at Hebrew University under another strange set of circumstances. After touring the U.S. with his four scrolls and not being able to find an interested buyer, Metropolitan Samuel placed an ad in the Wall Street Journal. By coincidence (or divine providence?) Yigal Yadin happened to be lecturing in New York and saw the advertisement. Through intermediaries, he was able to purchase these priceless scrolls for around $250,000. In February of 1955, the Prime Minister of Israel announced that the State of Israel had purchased the scrolls, and all seven (including the three purchased earlier by Professor Sukenik) were to be housed in a special museum at Hebrew University named the Shrine of the Book, where they can be seen today.

Needless to say, the initial announcement about the scrolls prompted feverish searches in the area of the original discoveries. An official archaeological expedition was begun in 1949 which eventually resulted in the discovery of ten additional caves in the surrounding area also containing scrolls. The archaeologists then directed their attention to a small ruin nearby called "Khirbet (ruins of) Qumran," which had been thought of as the remains of an old Roman fortress. After six seasons of intensive excavation, the scholars were sure beyond any reasonable doubt that the scrolls found their origin in this community which flourished between 125 BC and AD 68. The scrolls had been stored in haste in the caves as the community fled the encroaching Roman army, which was in Judea to put down the Jewish Revolt of AD 66-70.

The ruins of Qumran, which can be visited today, revealed that a substantial group of Jewish ascetics inhabited this community. Storehouses, aqueducts, ritual baths and an assembly hall were all uncovered. One of the most interesting rooms uncovered was a scriptorium, identified by two ink wells discovered there along with some benches for scribes. It was in this room that many, if not all, of the discovered manuscripts were copied.

Description of the Scrolls

As soon as the announcement of the scrolls' discovery was made, the scholarly debates about their origin and significance began. The debates increased when the amazing contents of the scrolls were successively revealed.

The seven original scrolls, from what came to be called “Cave One,” comprised the following:

a well-preserved copy of the entire prophecy of Isaiah—the oldest copy of an Old Testament book ever to be discovered

another fragmentary scroll of Isaiah

a commentary on the first two chapters of Habakkuk—the commentator explained the book allegorically interms of the Qumran brotherhood

the “Manual of Discipline” or “Community Rule”—the most important source of information about the religious sect at Qumran—it described the requirements for those aspiring to join the brotherhood

the “Thanksgiving Hymns,” a collection of devotional “psalms” of thanksgiving and praise to God

an Aramaic paraphrase of the Book of Genesis

the “Rule of War” which dealt with the battle between the “Sons of Light” (the men of Qumran) and the “Sons of Darkness” (the Romans?) yet to take place in the “last days,” which days the men of Qumran believed were about to arrive.

Those seven original scrolls were just the beginning. Over six hundred scrolls and thousands of fragments have been discovered in the 11 caves of the Qumran area. Fragments of every Biblical book except Esther have been found, as well as many other non-Biblical texts.

One of the most fascinating of the finds was a copper scroll which had to


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

continuing: One of the most fascinating of the finds was a copper scroll which had to becut in strips to be opened and which contained a list of 60 treasures located in various parts of Judea (none of which have been found)! Another scroll, which Israeli archaeologists recovered in 1967 underneath the floor of a Bethlehem antiquities dealer, describes in detail the community's view of an elaborate Temple ritual. This has been appropriately called the “Temple Scroll.”

The contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that their authors were a group of priests and laymen pursuing a communal life of strict dedication to God. Their leader was called the “Righteous Teacher.” They viewed themselves as the only true elect of Israel—they alone were faithful to the Law.

They opposed the “Wicked Priest”—the Jewish High Priest in Jerusalem who represented the establishment, and who had persecuted them in some way. This wicked priest was probably one of the Maccabean rulers who had illegitimately assumed the high priesthood between 150-140 BC. Most scholars have identified the Qumran brotherhood with the Essenes, a Jewish sect of Jesus' day described by Josephus and Philo.

Whoever the men of Qumran were, their writings provide us with a marvelous background picture of one aspect of the religious world into which Jesus came. Some have sought to draw parallels between figures in the scrolls and John the Baptist or Jesus, but an objective examination of such parallels reveals that the differences are greater than the similarities. Any contact of Jesus with Qumran is entirely speculative and most improbable. The suggestion that John the Baptist may have spent some time with the Qumran community is possible, since the Gospels tell us that he spent considerable time in the wilderness near the area where the Qumran community is located (Mt. 3:1-3; Mk. 1:4; Lk. 1:80; 3:2-3). John's message, however, differed markedly from that of the Qumran brotherhood. The only real common point was that they both taught that the "kingdom of God" was coming.

One of the most important contributions of the Dead Sea Scrolls is the numerous Biblical manuscripts which have been discovered. Until those discoveries at Qumran, the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were copies from the 9th and 10th centuries AD by a group of Jewish scribes called the Massoretes. Now we have manuscripts around a thousand years older than those. The amazing truth is that these manuscripts are almost identical! Here is a strong example of the tender care which the Jewish scribes down through the centuries took in an effort to accurately copy the sacred Scriptures. We can have confidence that our Old Testament Scriptures faithfully represent the words given to Moses, David and the prophets.

Doctrine of the Scrolls

The men of Qumran fervently believed in a doctrine of “last things.” They had fled to the desert and were readying themselves for the imminent judgment, when their enemies would be vanquished and they, God's elect, would be given final victory in accordance with the predictions of the prophets. It was in connection with these end-time events that one of the most fascinating teachings of the sect emerges. The messianic hope loomed large in the thought of the brotherhood. As a matter of fact, evidence shows that they actually believed in three messiahs—one a prophet, another a priest and the third a king or prince.

In the document mentioned earlier called the “Manual of Discipline” or the "Rule of the Community," it is laid down that the faithful should continue to live under the rule "until the coming of a prophet and the anointed ones [messiahs] of Aaron and Israel" (column 9, line 11). These three figures would appear to usher in the age for which the community was making preparation.

In another document found in Cave Four and referred to as the “Testimonia,” a number of Old Testament passages are brought together which formed the basis for their messianic expectations. The first is the citation from Deuteronomy 18:18-19 where God says to Moses: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee." Next comes a quotation from Numbers 24:15-17, where Balaam foresees the rise of a princely conqueror: "a Scepter shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab," etc. The third passage is the blessing pronounced by Moses upon the tribe of Levi (the priestly tribe) in Deuteronomy 33:8-11. The way in which these three quotations are brought together suggests that the writer looked forward to the advent of a great prophet, a great prince and a great priest.

There were three individuals in the Old Testament writings that were referred to as "my anointed ones"—the prophet, the priest and the king (refer to Ex. 29:29; 1 Sam. 16:13, 24:6; 1 Kg. 19:16; Ps. 105:15). Each of these was consecrated to his work by an anointing with oil. The Hebrew word for "anointed" is meshiach, from which we get the word Messiah.

The marvelous truth of the New Testament doctrine of the Messiah is that each of these three offices found fulfillment in the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth! The people were amazed at His feeding of the multitude and said, "This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world" (Jn. 6:14; also Jn. 7:40; Acts 3:22, 7:37). Jesus also was a priest, not from the order of Levi but from the order of Melchizedek (Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7), who offered Himself as a sacrifice and appears for us in the presence of His Father (Heb. 9:24-26; 10:11-12). Also, Jesus was announced as the One who will receive "the throne of his father, David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk. 1:32-33). He will be acclaimed "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 19:16).

Thus, we have found an interesting point of contact between Qumran and Christianity—a point of contact which is also a point of cleavage. The Qumran community and the early Christians agreed that in the days of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies there would arise a great prophet, a great priest and a great king. But these three figures remained distinct in Qumran expectation, whereas the New Testament saw them unified in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

One more manuscript that has come to light in recent years provides a fascinating background to the New Testament messianic hope. It has been reconstructed from twelve small fragments, furnishing less than two columns of writing; but this much can be ascertained from its brief contents. It is a prediction of the birth of a Wonderful Child, possibly drawing on Isaiah 9:6-7: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given... and his name shall be called Wonderful." This child will bear special marks on His body and will be distinguished by wisdom and intelligence. He will be able to probe the secrets of all living creatures, and He will inaugurate the new age for which the faithful fervently awaited.

Is it not striking that soon after this manuscript was composed, a child wa sborn who fulfilled the hopes of Israel and inaugurated a new age? Although the men of Qumran were mistaken in the details of their messiah, they did expect one whose general characteristics were strikingly illustrated by Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God and Messiah. It is not known if some early Christian brought the message of Jesus to this wilderness community. We are left only to speculate on how they would have responded to the Wonderful Child born in Bethlehem who was the Prophet, Priest and King of Israel.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele, I do like Qumran review. I use to subscribe Archeology Today, but there is too much to read. What is say about Gospel of Luke Historian (not Jew). Thanks for discussion, u could have new Hub.


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Thank you Ravengadown for the lesson, this is sad, but not many Christians are familiar with origin and history of their Christian religion.

You say that 

there were two school of thoughts within the 

Ebionite (Edomite) movement. One group, known as the Nazarenes (Minaeans) , claimed that Isa was Messiah, born of a virgin.[...] 

What was the name of the second group ?

Yes Ravengadown, there are two Prophets (PBUT) in the Holy Quran called by the name Isa or Esau.

The first, 

 Prophet Isa (PBUH), the first-born and beloved son  of Prophet Ishaq (PBUH) who was also the son in law of Prophet Isma'il (PBUH), and ancestor of Prophets Shu'aib and Ayyub (PBUT),

and the second, Prophet Isa (PBUH) son of Mary, born two thousands years after the first Prophet Isa (PBUH) was born.

This is what is written in Holy Quran and sealed forever.

To distinguish between those two Prophets ( PBUT),  Allah made addition "the son of Mary".

There are several places in Holy Quran where Prophet Isa (PBUH) son of Mary is mentioned without this addition, however, it occurs only in close chronological proximity to His birth.

On the other hand, Prophet Isa (PBUH) - son of Prophet Ishaqu (PBUH), without the addition "son of Mary", is always listed between the Patriarchs Prophets, living over a thousand years before Prophet Isa (PBUH) son of Mary was born.

Ravengadown, before you laugh again, please notice that  I'm not adding or taking away even one word from Holy Quran.

Do you want to learn more about Prophet Isa (PBUH), ancestor of many Nations, including Ismaelites and Arabs, and ancestor of many Prophets? Take a note that one of them was Prophet Mohamed (PBUH).

BTW My pointing to Ahmed Deedad's lecture was only meant to clarify the name Isa - Jesus - Esau.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad I like National Geographic and the Smithsonian. They both have good articles. I don't read everything but they do come up with wonderful things from time to time.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

If anyone feels Holy Spirit is knocking on the heart - if anyone is not sure about salvation say: Lord I am receiving you as my Lord and I believe God raise You from the death. Then get "baptize" - dip to the love and Word.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello, Michele, again. Two books identical with Bible were found in Qumran: Complete Isaiah and Gospel of Luke. For skeptics it is evidence and confirmation of true Bible. It said all about our salvation. It confirms nothing was altered. Hey guys, open heart and believe.

If we would have in the Bible only those two books and receive anyone will be saved.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, that is very true.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

archeology also proves many truth about the bible

quite a number of Biblical structures have been excavated. Some of the most interesting are the following:

The base of the Tower of Babel in Babylon where language was confused (Genesis 11:1-9).

Old Testament

New Testament

The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud (Judges 3:15-30).

The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city (Judges 9:34-38).

The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem, where funds were obtained to finance Abimelech's kingship, and where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city (Judges 9:4, 46-49).

The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel (2 Samuel 2:12-32).

The Pool of Heshbon, likened to the eyes of the Shulammite woman (Song of Songs 7:4).

The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived (1 Kings 20:43; 21:1, 2; 22:39; 2 Kings 1:2; 15:25).

The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death (1 Kings 22:29-38).

The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege (2 Kings 20:20; 2 Chronicles 32:30).

The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall (Daniel 5).

The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes (Esther 1:2; 2:3, 5, 9, 16).

The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat (Esther 2:19, 21; 3:2, 3; 4:2; 5:9, 13; 6:10, 12).

The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach, Xerxes' eunuch (Esther 4:6).

The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-28) and delivered the sermon on the bread of life (John 6:25-59).

The house of Peter at Capernaum where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others (Matthew 8:14-16).

Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4).

The Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a crippled man (John 5:1-14).

The Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a blind man (John 9:1-4).

The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried (Acts 18:12-17).

The theater at Ephesus, Turkey.

The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred (Acts 19:29). - See picture at top

Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard (Acts 23:33-35).


Martus 4 years ago

Hi Michele.

What a success! In the beginning there is this question:" what happened to make pagans become Christians." Historical events presented indicate how well God's plans succeeds throughout in history. The Roman Emperor Constantine is additional "instrument" of God to for " openning a door" to ALL to hear the proclamation of the Good News of Salvation .

Previously in time of past, there was the Egyptian's Pharaoh, later the king Nabuchadnezzar, how about Cyrus,-- to mention jus a few beeing used as God's instruments in His purposes.

This lengthy " discussion " via Comments are presenting tha fact about this God Elohim as The One who PROVIDES, PROTECTS, and SUPPLIES the riches of life here and hereafter. He wants "US"-- e v e r y o n e to understand as a whole that God has planed and created all things for the highest good of all. ( Rev.4:11)

No one has to prove the truthfulness of the Bible.God's continuity does not depend on man's appproval or disapproval . Just a bit willingness to hear what the Word tells of the " Word made flesh"( John 1:14), and believing will do the rest. (John 1:1-13)


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Martus. Your comment is wonderful


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

There are also writing out side the bible. Written by historians who were not Christians.

Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Witnesses

There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life. Let’s look at these hostile accounts and see what they tell us about Jesus:

Thallus (52AD)

Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus’ life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)

Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)

Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome)." (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Tacitus (56-120AD)

Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)

Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.

Phlegon (80-140AD)

In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

"Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour." (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ... ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)

Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common pro


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Martus, I am not trying to prove the truth of the bible, just explaining it to others. I hope that is alright. God Bless you.


easy to deceive 4 years ago

Do you think you can really explain? Who will listen? All they care about it cell phones, cars, beauty. Look at the television. The programs that are interesting, like Jersey Shore. Commercials for the best cell phones, or cars. All people want is money, they want to look good, or have the best of everything. Money blinds them. Money has always blinded them. From the start of the world. Riches have always ruled. Riches always will ruled. Pagans, Christians, Muslims, it does not matter who you say you are. Money is the one who is worshiped the most. Money.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

easy to deceive. Well, not all rich were foolish. Half virgins were wise and perhaps rich. The criterion of wrong is not having money but bad loving money.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Martus, thumb up for you perfect comment. Thanks. It is excellent.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

easy do you worship money?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, thank you for your comment. I appreciate it very much. I really do!


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

I just want to focus on salvation especially of non-Christians. So now I published Hub:

HOW MANY TIMES YOU NEED TO BREAK THE CHAIN TO FALL?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Very well done research of outside Biblical references about early Christians, Michele.

I'm just reading the book, The World's Grate Letters, published in 1940. 

It includes the letter of Pliny the Younger in which he ask the emperor Trajan how to arrest and punish "The depraved and excessive superstition" of the early Christians. 

Several pages later there is a letter of Saint Jerome describing the decline and fall of Rome before his eyes.

He writes:

"... the wolves of the North have been let loose..."

I SHUDDER when I think of the calamities of our time.

For twenty years the blood of Romans has been shed daily between Constantinople and the Alps.

Scythia, Thrace, Macedon, Thessaly, Dacia, Achaea, Epirus - all this region have been sacked and pillaged by Goths and Alans, Huns and Vandals. How many noble and virtuous woman have been made the sport of these beasts. "

It's strange, those people created the new Roman - Vandal Catholic Church and in the year 1204 destroyed the true Christian Church of Constantinopole.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

That is interesting. Now Rome is very rich. Beautiful, rich, and has it's own power.


easy to deceive 4 years ago

revengadown what proves the Quran to be true?


easy to deceive 4 years ago

Michele why is Rome rich? Does that mean the pope is bad? Is money bad? Very interesting...


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I do not understand what you are asking about. What does that have to do with Pagans becoming Christians?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengadown does not have to answer to you. He has written a lot. Simply read what has been written. And tell me who you are.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michelle, why one should read non Christian writers about Christians or God who do not have any experiences how God's thoughts are and do not know true Christians?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

I do not have anything to do with Rome or religion. I hate religion. I do not officially celebrate Easter. I celebrate only resurrection. I can in my freedom celebrate birth of Jesus every day or December 25. I do not go by rules but by the Spirit and the Word of God which is living Logos.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

They should not. It would be nice if they would at least try to learn something rather then nothing, about the truth. Christianity is the truth of God. I think sometimes people write something, just to be funny.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad what do you mean by " I hate religion"? Don't you believe in the bible? Aren't you a Christian? No we do not have to celebrate the birthday, I understand that. But, what about His crucifixion? Shouldn't we honor that? Yes we should celebrate the resurrection. But, we should also honor the crucifixion.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,the discoveries of Biblical cities like Dan and other numerous historical structures you mentined in your comment are interesting and real help in understanding the Bible because it yields fascinating information which illustrates what might otherwise be obscured.That’s good.I m not denying that but if some historical Biblical records of some events,places,nations are accurate don’t necessary mean The entire Bible is accurate 100 % and reliable concerning spiritual matters.There are some parts of the Bible not accurate historically which means cannot be explained or answered but only in the voice of mythology. The New Testament for example is filled with events that never actually happened, they are episodes of mythology that get played over and over in the lives of sun-gods like Mithras, Horus, and Bacchus, ...the early Gnostic Christians regarded the Gospel story as purely symbolic; they rejected the Literalist movement of Christianity which prevailed over them, and corrupted the Gospel of Jesus. I suggest reading The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy.

The darkness at the crucifixion, the rising saints of Matthew, the earthquake, resurrection, and the “crucifixion” itself are mythological events, they were NOT recorded by historians who lived during that period of time. Philo Judaes lived around 50 CE and never mentions the Gospel events; the Roman records of Pilate DO NOT mention Jesus. Thousands of criminals were crucified by the Romans, but no record exists of Jesus, simply because the Pilate did not crucify him. He was saved by God according to Psalms 20:6, Hebrews 5:7, Apocalypse of Peter and Al-Quran 4:157. Regarding the alleged “darkness and earthquake in Matthew”, there is not a shred of evidence to support the Gospel story.

“… We have here a good example of the credulity of Western man. For two thousand years he has been reading about this convulsion and “darkness over all the earth” without ever questioning it or demanding proof of it. Yet had it happened, would not some of those able historians have recorded it? Why did they not?” (Deceptions & Myths of the Bible, Lloyd Graham p. 349)

"In regard to the miraculous events which took place at the death of Jesus, the Gospel of St. John says nothing, and those of St. Mark and St. Luke speak only of the rending of the veil of the temple and of the darkness or overcastting of the sky for three hours. The story of the earthquake, the upheaval of the rocks, the bursting open of the graves, and the appearance of the dead, is alone related in St. Matthew's Gospel, written nearly eighty years after the event, and is therefore not certainly authentic. Of course there is no reason why an earthquake should not have occurred on that day, but if it had really taken place it is almost inconceivable that none of the three earlier Gospels should have mentioned it." (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p62)

Matthew is the only Gospel in the New Testament that records “Herod’s slaughter of the innocents” i have explicit quotations from scholars to substantiate that “Herod’s slaughter of the innocents” is just another recapture of pagan mythology. The sun-gods of ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt were threatened at birth, and the order was made to kill all the “new-born infants”. The same episode was replayed in the life of Jesus, who is considered a ‘sun-god’ by modern Secular scholars.

Jesus was not the Son of God but the ‘Sun of God’. Amazing isn’t it? God would never defy His own creatures, even to the slightest extant. Hence, the titles of “Lamb of God” and “God the Son” are reversions to paganism. The “God the Son” implies the pagan trinity. The title “Lamb of God” is also not unique; it was applied to Krishna as well, the Hindu savior who lived hundreds of years before Christ was born and this would maybe Endless Sea expalain it better than me.

These titles were probably derived from Augustine, who was the first to conjecture that Luke’s genealogy belonged to Mary.

Nevertheless, here are those historical errors. I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I enjoyed collecting them:

Did Herod slaughter the innocents?

Another prophecy related to the birth of Jesus is the claim that the Messiah would be born at a time when King Herod was killing children. Only the gospel of Matthew (2:16-18) makes this claim, quoting a prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15) which states that "A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and she refused to be comforted, because they were no more." There are two problems with this alleged messianic prophecy: it is not a prophecy about children being killed and it is quite doubtful that there ever was such a slaughter of innocents by Herod. "Rachel weeping for her children" refers to the mother of Joseph and Benjamin (and wife of Jacob) weeping about her children taken captive to Egypt. In context, the verse is about the Babylonian captivity, which its author witnessed. Subsequent verses speak of the children being returned, and thus it refers to captivity rather than murder. The slaughter by Herod is also in doubt because the writer of Matthew is the only person who has noted such an event. Flavius Josephus, who carefully chronicled Herod's abuses, makes no mention of it.

(www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html)

His cruelty was reflected in the biblical account of the Massacre of the Innocents. At the same time as Jesus was born, he was said to have ordered the slaughter of all children (boys) in Bethlehem under two years old. Herod was supposedly fearful of prophecies that said that a "King of the Jews" would be born inBethlehem. This challenged his authority, and thus he ordered the crackdown to protect himself. This massacre is not mentioned in any non-biblical sources, however, and is very probably apocryphal. (http://www.answers.com/Herod)

“As we have already seen, the stories of the angels and the shepherds, in Luke, and of the wise men, in Matthew, are rewrites of Egyptian mythical themes from at least two thousand years earlier. They are portrayed in the art at Luxor. There is no historical evidence of Herod’s “slaughter of the innocents” either.Common sense tells us that such an order was impossibility in any case. Did Herod intend to kill the children of his friends, his soldiers, his civil servants, tourists passing through, and so on? you know for certain the whole matter is symbolic once you realize that an attempt to slaughter a holy child appears in all the ancient hero myths, from Moses to Horus to Sargon to Hercules. As noted earlier, the threat to the newly born Horus, the Egyptian Christ, came from Herut, the serpent. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, p. 126)

Geographical Errors

Commenting in his (Harold Liedner) 1999 book The Fabrication of the Christ Myth on the well-known Gospel story of the Gadarene swine, which rushed down a steep cliff and were drowned in the Sea of Galilee, the Jewish scholar Joseph Leidner points out that because Gadera is actually several kilometers away from the sea, the whole incident is evidence of either ignorance or total lack of concern with veridical history. Citing other similar examples, he writes, “From the evidence…the blunt conclusion emerges that the Gospel writers did not know the geography and customs of the Holy Land, and did not know Judaism itself. They were working with source material having nothing to do with historical data of any kind.

Mark makes serious mistakes in his geographical references to Palestine. He knows the Galilean place names

and the general relative positions of the localities, but not specific details. Hence he "represents Jesus as travelling back

and forth in Galilee and adjacent territories in a puzzling fashion" (Kee, 117, pp 102 - 3). To go (as Jesus is said to in Mk. 7:31) from the territory of Tyre by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee "is like travelling from Cornwall to London via Manchester" (Anderson, 2, p 192). Again, Mark’s references to movements across the Sea of Galilee are impos


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Of course I do celebrate crucifixion. My point was that religion is establishment made by man. I am born again believer walking in the spirit. I am new creation. Religion mostly is walking in flesh full of hate, and love also suffer. Here is the point. Jesus took curse of the Law on the wood. When He said it is finished. He did not finish salvation. It only started. He finished Old Covenant. The Law of Old Covenant is demanding, judging, condemning and causing dead. The grace is giver not taker including freedom. When I lived under the Law I was most miserable person. Now I am free not only to sin but from sin and desire of it. Sin is very expensive.


revengadown profile image

revengadown 4 years ago

@Michele,I read your account of Dead sea Scroll.it seems you are persistent in believing that lie,I gave you already the evidences which refuted it as argumant to use it to prove the truthfullness of the Bible.What I have today is something shocking sorry for the word.

In 1947 a group of children stumbled upon the first set of scrolls in a cave on the shores of the Dead Sea. These scrolls were immediately identified as the work of a very devout sect of the Jewish community that lived centuries before the birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). Hershel Shanks says in his book Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls:

"Such was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, manuscripts a thousand years older than the oldest known Hebrew texts of the Bible, manuscripts many of which were written a hundred years before the birth of Jesus and at least one of which may have been written almost three hundred years before the journey of Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem" Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hershel Shanks, pp. 7-8

An immediate frantic search ensued through the remaining caves in the region in order to find what other ancient scrolls could be discovered therein. A small group of "international" scholars in Israel were given exclusive access to them and the rest of the world was all but totally barred from gaining even the slightest glimpse of the texts (Prof. Eisenman observes that one of the major stumbling blocks for the publication of the scrolls was that "in the first place, the team was hardly international") . Prof. Robert Eisenman was one of the key players in the drama that finally lead to the release of the scrolls. In his book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered" we read:

"In the spring of 1986, at the end of his stay in Jerusalem, Professor Eisenman went with the British scholar, Philip Davies of the University of Sheffield, to see one of the Israeli officials responsible for this - an intermediary on behalf of the Antiquities Department (now 'Authority') and the International Team and the Scrolls Curator at Israel Museum. They were told in no uncertain terms 'You will not see the Scrolls in your lifetimes'" This stung them into action, and as a result of this statement, a massive effort was launched and five years later through a whirlwind of media publicity, absolute access to the scrolls was attained. Prof. Eisenman eventually received 1800 pictures of the previously unpublished scrolls. The book goes on to describe how

"Eisenman was preparing the Facsimile Edition of all unpublished plates. This was scheduled to appear the following spring through E. J. Brill in Leiden,Holland. Ten days, however, before its scheduled publication in April 1991, after pressure was applied by the International Team, the publisher inexplicably withdrew and Hershel Shanks (author of Biblical Archeology Review) and the Biblical Archeology Society to their credit stepped in to fill the breach".

However, finally in September 1991, the archives were officially opened and two months later the 2-volume Facsimile Edition was published.

We have already read the words of Mr. Tom Harpur in the preface to his book:

"The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title "Son of God" in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus.....this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself." For Christ's Sake, Tom Harpur, pp. xii.

So why don't we study these scrolls in a little more detail and see what else we can learn ?

The Dead Sea Scrolls consist of fragments from many manuscripts, however, some of the most interesting among them are the Pesher texts. The Pesher texts are strings of interpretations of Biblical verses compiled by the most knowledgeable among the Jews. The word itself is derived from the Hebrew root word p-sh-r, which means, "to explain". The texts consist of Biblical passages followed by the words pesher ha-davar "the interpretation of the matter is," and then the interpretation itself.

The basis of all of these texts is the notion that all of history is preordained by God. In other words, God is not restricted to looking at matters as "past", "present", or "future", rather, all of time is an open book to God (please read the verification of this concept in Islamic belief in chapter 11). Indeed, this is the essence of how prophets receive "prophesies", because God "sees" the future.

So, remembering that we are henceforth quoting from texts that have been carbon dated at about 100 years or more before the coming of Jesus (pbuh), and that this dating is confirmed by literary analysis, and that the authors were a sect of very religious and devout Jews, considering all of this let us see what they have to say:

Those who have studied the scrolls have noticed a common theme prevalent throughout these manuscripts, that is, most of the pesher texts prophesise the coming of a "Teacher of Righteousness" who will be sent by God to the Jews. This "Teacher of Righteousness" will be opposed by the "Teacher of Lies" and the "Wicked Priest." These scrolls also predict the coming of TWO messiahs. These two messiahs are referred to as a priestly and a temporal messiah. What we had here was a society of very devout Jews who were convinced that the time of the coming of the two messiahs was at hand, therefore, they set about preparing for their advent by detaching themselves from the mainstream society, and dedicating their lives to their worship and the preparation for their imminent arrival.

"According to the dominant view in the sectarian texts from Qumran, two messiahs were to lead the congregation in the End of Days, one priestly, and the other lay" Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, pp. 321-322

In The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, by Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise, we read that the early scrolls spoke of TWO messiahs, but that later on, the communities of the Jews began to combine them into one messiah: "As we have suggested, contrary to the well-known 'two-Messiah' theory of early Qumran scholarship, these references to the 'Messiah of Aaron and Israel' in the Damascus Document are singular not plural... and one possible explanation for it is that it is evoking a Messiah with both priestly and kingly implications, like the somewhat similar recitations of Hebrews" The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise, p. 162

The Jews had prophesies of two messiahs. The first was best known to them for his "priestly" or "ecclesiastic" works which he would perform. The second was best known to them for his "kingly" or "military" works. These two prophesies refer to Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) was best know for his "priestly" works. However, unlike prophets such as David and Moses (pbut), he never lead an army, he never established a kingdom or a government, nor did he call his followers to wage war. Quite the opposite, he always called to peace and submissiveness and to leave the rule of the land to others (Matthew 22:21). He told his followers that he yet had many things to teach them but they could not bear them yet and that another would be coming after him who would teach them the complete truth (John 16:7-14). Muhammad (pbuh) too began by preaching submissiveness and passiveness. However, his ministry was allowed by God Almighty to mature to a point where it was able to defend itself and establish justice in the earth and abolish evil. Thus, just as many Old Testament prophets had waged many wars against the pagans of the surrounding nations, so too Muhammad's followers fought many wars in the name of God and the Islamic empire finally stretched from China to Spain. Even those who did not follow Muhammad (pbuh) knew him well. However, what did they know him for? They knew him for his "kingly" actions and not for the "priestly" side of him that his followers knew.

"And fight against them until persecution is no more and religion is for God alone. But if they desist then let there be no h


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