Was Jesus' Father Really a Roman Soldier Named Tiberius Pantera?

Mary and Jesus with Joseph.
Mary and Jesus with Joseph.
This is how we see Jesus.
This is how we see Jesus.

Who Was Jesus' Father?

The story of Jesus Christ is ingrained within us. We all know when he was born, where he lived and who he traveled with. But there is so much more to His story that is never told.

In fact the Church holds onto this information for whatever reasons they choose. Why? Are they scared they will lose credibility if the truth comes out? Or is it just the fact that they would rather hold onto the real mysteries of the Bible?

That is one question that I doubt will be answered anytime soon.

What I am about to reveal is actually not a very well hidden secret. If you know where to look you will see that others have already discussed and discovered the background story, and its a pretty amazing one at that.

But is this is the REAL FACE  of Jesus? That's another story!
But is this is the REAL FACE of Jesus? That's another story!

The Pantera Bloodline.

Around 177 AD Celsus a Greek Philosopher wrote a book called The True Word. In it he describes the belief of many Jewish scholars, and in fact the thoughts and memories of many people back then who came from the Holy Land.

The truth, as was told back then, is that Jesus' parents were Mary, and a Roman Soldier named Pantera. In other words, Jesus' father was in fact human.

The name Pantera was quite common back then, but we do have his first name too.

He was known as Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.

This was recorded not only in the Jewish Talmud but also in other Jewish writings and Roman records. In it Jesus was referred to as Jesus (Yeshu) ben Pantera, Son of Pantera.

Jesus is a fairly modern take on his real name. He was mainly known as Yeshu or Yeshua, which makes sense as there was no letter J in the Hebrew or Greek alphabet around the time of the Jesus story.


Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera Roman soldier, is he the father of Jesus?
Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera Roman soldier, is he the father of Jesus?

Who Was Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera? 'Panthera'

And was he the alleged father of Jesus, or Yeshua?


Tiberius was an Archer in the Roman army around the time of Jesus birth. He was born in Sidon Phoenicia, which today is in Lebanon, approximately 25 miles south of Beirut.

The first Cohorts of Archers left Palestine and went to Dalmatia in 6 AD and then onto the Rhine in 9 AD.

Pantera was enlisted locally, and served in the army for approx. 40 years. Which was by this time, in the reign of Tiberius. When he was discharged he would then have been granted citizenship by the Emperor and thus added the Emperor's name to his own, which was common back then.

There is speculation at that time from Jewish Scholars and Roman soldiers that Tiberius could very well have raped Mary, but of course it could have been a romantic liaison between Mary and Pantera.

Either way there is speculation that the Catholic Church is aware of the alleged beginnings. The belief is that Joseph arrived to collect Mary to marry her, only to find her already pregnant. He forgave her and they became man and wife.

There is also a rumour that Joseph was going to back out of the marriage, purely because back then it would have been regarded as adultery. In fact it was alleged that the reason why Mary and Joseph left, was to escape persecution because of the adultery, along with the documented reason that Herod was going to kill all the male babies.

To stir the pot even more, we have a tombstone which is evidently the tomb of Tiberius Julius Abedes Pantera as you can see below.

The gravestone is residing in the Romerhalle museum, Bad Kreuznach, Germany.

Pantera Tombstone.

Tiberius Pantera tombstone possibly the father of Jesus!
Tiberius Pantera tombstone possibly the father of Jesus!

Pantera Gravestone.

In 1859 a gravestone was found in Germany. The name on the stone was Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera. He was a Roman soldier.

He served in the unit Cohors I Sagittariorum. He had served in Judea before going to Germany.

The name Abdes is Jewish for (Servant of God). Therefore stating that he had a Jewish background.

'Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera Sidonia annorum LXIIstipendiorum XXXX miles exsignifer cohorte I sagittariorumh situs est'

Translated as:

'Tiberius Iulius Abdes Panterafrom Sidon, age 62 years served for 40 years, former standard bearer of the First Cohort of Archers lies here'.

Timelines:

  1. The Emperor Tiberius ruled from 14 AD to 37 AD so.....
  2. Pantera's 40 odd years of service would have been between 27 BC and 4 BC which means that.....
  3. Pantera would probably have been about 18 when he enlisted, so he was probably born between 45 BC and 22 BC. This means that........
  4. Pantera could have been between the ages of 15 or 38 when Jesus was conceived in the year 7 BC *

*The year of Jesus' birth is a stone of contention among Biblical Scholars, the latest reasoning is told that it was earlier than they thought. For further reading and to understand how the timelines worked back then, check out this link:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/what-year-was-jesus-born-the-answer-may-surprise-you

The Real Jesus Bloodline?

Whether we believe in Jesus as the Son of God, or whether we look at him in a purely historic way, there is no denying that there is more to the story than we know. The Church has taken over our way of worship for two thousand years, and to my mind has left out some of the most important parts of the story.

I don't know whether this story is true or not. It seems that its been hidden in Jewish Law and the Talmud for centuries, along with Roman scholars and their writings too.

Do I believe it? Its possible. I tend to sit on the fence with this one. Why? Because there are a few buts that I would need to verify first.

For example:

Its possible that Celsus was a Christian hater. He was a pagan, and its said that he disliked the Church.

This would make sense. If he was, then he would do anything to discredit Jesus, Mary and the whole story.

But where did the Jewish Talmud get hold of the idea? Well, evidently it was Jewish Oral Law way back at the time of Jesus. It was taken for granted that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and Pantera, or as some called him (Panthera).

And there is the fact that Scholars for centuries have always asked the question, why was Jesus called Ben Panthera or Pantera?

I will leave you with this to mull over. I actually found this to be the most disturbing part of the story. And just goes to show how the Church manipulates our thoughts and beliefs.

Does it Matter?

Jesus son of Pantera Jesus Ben Pantera
Jesus son of Pantera Jesus Ben Pantera

Hidden Secrets and Church Lies.

Adamantius Origen, was an early Christian historian, and church father. He recorded the following verses about Mary.

'Mary was turned out by her husband, who was a carpenter by profession, because she had been convicted for unfaithfulness.

Cut off by her husband, she gave birth to Jesus, who was a bastard. Then Jesus, because of his poverty was then hired out and told to go to Egypt. There he acquired magical powers, which Egyptians all pride themselves on, believing they all possess the power'

In passage (1:32) Origen agreed with the Jewish records, and confirmed the fact that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, or Pantera. He then went on to repeat the verse in 1.69.

But like all secrets, during the 17th Century, all of those sentences were erased from the ancient Vatican manuscripts and other codices books under the Catholic Church's control.

The Church writings of St.Epiphanius, who was the Bishop of Salamis from 315 to 403 AD once again confirmed the ben Panthera story. What is startling is that he was a Catholic orthodox and a high Saint of Roman Catholicism. So his statement concerning Mary and Jesus is pretty hard to ignore. He says:

Jesus was the son of Julius whose surname was Pantera (Panthera)

This is an amazing and extraordinary declaration that was written in a simple way, and recorded in those ancient records. Even more extraordinary is the fact that the early Church accepted this as real history. It was written in such a way that everybody believed it as fact. The ben Pantera story was so far reaching that these early followers of the Christian church inserted Pantera's name in the written geneology of Jesus and Mary.

Now you can't beat that can you?

Phew! Hard pill to swallow eh?

But I have to add that to me, it just makes Jesus more human, and much more real than the distant Jesus in the Bible. The Catholic Church does know the story, so why did they change it originally? I often wonder if the Church was founded on lies and power.

Would they ever tell the World if it is real? Of course not! And more to the point, if the Church did say it, would people believe it? No I don't think so. Which is fine.

But let's be honest:

Does it really Matter?

I mean if you think about it someone had to be the father of Jesus. Nobody these days really believes that you can have a virgin birth.

So, if we believe Jesus was the Son of God through his Spirit and not literally his DNA, then someone had to be his earthly father. And we know it's not Joseph.

I actually think that in this day and age, people will accept Jesus with his more colorful history, and see him as a real person. I know I do. Whether this is based on truth or not.

Jesus was a flesh and blood man. His Spirit was much much more. Simple as that.

As a last thought I would like to share one thing with you. I recently went to Cyprus and spent a couple of hours in the Church of Lazarus. Yes THAT Lazarus!

Evidently Lazarus went to live in Larnaca Cyprus and died there many years later. The Church was built over his tomb.

I have stood in the church looking down at the tomb. (Photo below) And like many people who come face to face with the Bible's reality it took my breath away. I could feel the reality of history folding round me as I touched the tomb of Lazarus.

So, yes Jesus was real. If he wasn't then there wouldn't be a tomb of Lazarus, or at least a revered tomb of Lazarus.

Jesus is mentioned in many gospels and new found scrolls.

And Jesus had a father. Who, we will never really know.

There will always be people and religions who try to say He wasn't real. This evidence just makes Him much more than a few words written on old parchment.


Note:

The story of Pantera (Panthera) is not my opinion. This is based on historic and religious books that have been around for centuries.

Its up to you to decide if you believe it or not. Thanks for reading.

The tomb of Lazarus in Larnaka Cyprus.
The tomb of Lazarus in Larnaka Cyprus.

Well, What do you Think?

Was Pantera the real father of Jesus?

See results without voting

Research and Sources:

Calender and Times BC and AD

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html

http://robinhl.com/2011/11/06/jesus-son-of-pantera/

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_7.htm

© 2015 Nell Rose

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Comments 116 comments

rebeccamealey profile image

rebeccamealey 17 months ago from Northeastern Georgia, USA

I have never heard the Panthera theory, Nell. This was quite an interesting read. Well researched!


Pollyanna Jones profile image

Pollyanna Jones 17 months ago from United Kingdom

Really interesting, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if something like this did happen. Roman army recruits would be deployed to serve in distant lands from those that they resided in when they were recruited to avoid nasty upsets or conflicts of interest, so it's not unlikely that he would have been buried in somewhere so far from Lebanon. A brilliant read, thank you!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Rebecca, thanks for reading, yes the truth comes out! amazing isn't it?


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Pollyanna, sorry not sure who you mean? This is about Jesus father, it was Lazarus who was buried in Cyprus, but thanks anyway, nell


billybuc profile image

billybuc 17 months ago from Olympia, WA

You made a couple statements that I found interesting. Has the Church lied for 2,000 years? Most likely....probably definitely.

Does it really matter who the real father of Jesus was? I don't see why it should. Does it really change the central message and meaning of Jesus? No way, and that should be the most important focus when discussing Jesus Christ.

Interesting write, Nell. Well done!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Billy, yep totally agree with you on all points! sadly for some people it would make them blow a gasket! lol! thanks as always, nell


Mel Carriere profile image

Mel Carriere 17 months ago from San Diego California

This is the first I have heard of this remarkable legend. Seems odd that a common soldier who sired a Palestinian peasant would have such an ornate tombstone. Since intermingling with Roman soldiers was a taboo activity for the Jews of Jesus' era, I suspect that styling him as the bastard son of just such a Roman was a means of disgracing his name. I'm not fanatical about these matters, and historical authenticity does not make a difference to my particular version of hocus-pocus, but this particular explanation doesn't hold much water with me. Excellent hub, thanks for edifying us with this particular tidbit of history.


suzettenaples 17 months ago

Nell, What an interesting theory. This is the first I have heard about this. Yes, who knows what is really the truth about Jesus' birth. Yes, it is the Roman Catholic Church that set down church law and doctrine with the Nicene Creed in 315 AD. (I may be off a bit on the date. But it was definitely the 3rd century AD). It was here that the story of Jesus' conception and birth was determined to be an immaculate conception and birth and the mystery began and has been the major mystery of the Catholic Church and faith for 2000 years. It was men that decided these things and portrayed Mary Magdaline as a prostitute. Today, we know she was not and could have been Jesus' wife. I don't see the church giving up the idea of a virgin conception and birth for a good long time. The church is made up of men who are certainly going to keep control as much as they can. I find your article fascinating and certainly could be true.


Buildreps profile image

Buildreps 17 months ago from Europe

Great Hub and awesome research!

We all know the church lies and twists facts as long as it has been around. But isn't this what most people actually want when they have 'faith' in something or someone? They want to keep up the picture of the perfect thing to believe in. So, it looks like the church is giving the people what they want to hear.

Simon Magus was the real Jesus, and as expected he's pictured as a kind of swindler by the church. The teachings of Magus, like the Simonian Aeonology, was regarded as very dangerous for the autocracy of the church.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Buildreps, took me a while to answer, because I had never heard of Magus before, well not in the context of being Jesus?! I went over to read about him, isn't he just another follower? thanks, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi suzette, there is so much that we don't know, I do wish the church at the beginning would have told us the truth warts and all! lol! that way it would have made an awesome real life story! thanks so much for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Mel, Yes I must admit I thought that about the tombstone too. and yes, the Jewish leaders of the synagogue would have done anything to insult Jesus and his mother, because he was causing a stir. in fact the actual words are much more insulting, but I won't add them here, but its in the link sources, I was shocked! to say the least when I saw what was written in the talmud! I agree with you, but its a fascinating mystery isn't it? nell


Mary Hyatt 17 months ago

I have never heard of this theory before. Very interesting and food for thought. Voted up


fpherj48 profile image

fpherj48 17 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

Hey there GF...Like you, I am also quite fascinated with ancient history. I thoroughly enjoy reading it all. You've done a wonderful job with this presentation, Nell, but you always do.

The truth is we can study, research and delve forever and there's always more to consider. This is what makes it all so interesting and intriguing.

We should not ever be closed minded, but continue to nourish our inquisitive minds! Leaning enriches our lives!

Wonderful hub, Nell. Thank you so much....UP++pinned & tweeted.


Dizze Blogger profile image

Dizze Blogger 17 months ago from Oregon

A side comment about the Virgin Mary: she was likely not a virgin by today's usage of the word. The word "virgin" wasn't applied to Mary until around 1300 (first recorded use) and may have been mistranslated. The "real" translation would simply be "young". Originally, the word virgin was more akin to maiden, and basically just meant you were young or inexperienced. Yes, it was frequently used in a sexual connotation, but someone who has had sex once could still be considered inexperienced.

The term has also been used to describe a woman who isn't "owned", a.k.a. someone unmarried or unbetrothed. This extends to the following definition: "a female who is sexually and thus socially her own person." In this sense, it could be used to describe a woman who had sex outside of wedlock, or in other words a whore or slut, as used today. In this context, Jesus's mother Mary could have been called a virgin because she had sex with someone outside of wedlock, maybe multiple someones.

In any of the above cases, Mary wasn't necessarily called a virgin because she had never had sex. She may have been called a virgin because she was young, because she was unmarried when she became pregnant, or because she had sex outside of wedlock. The word "virgin" doesn't mean that Jesus was conceived without a human male participant.

https://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/w...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity

Another fun fact, "Immaculate Conception" isn't about Jesus's supposedly virgin birth, but rather about how Mary herself was conceived in her mother's womb, free from sin so that she could be a proper vessel for the Son of God. I didn't know this before. Also, this idea didn't become dogma until about 160 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conceptio...


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Dizze, that's fascinating stuff. I was aware of the word Virgin, although not all the connotations, but I didn't know about the Immaculate Conception bit! thanks, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hiya, Paula, always great to see you! and yes there is always more to discover, I love this stuff! lol! thanks as always, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Mary, I just love these sort of religious mysteries! thanks as always, nell


heidithorne profile image

heidithorne 17 months ago from Chicago Area

Well, since the publishing of the Da Vinci Code sometime back, I think lots of people are asking the "Who really was Jesus?" question. This is certainly an interesting possibility. There are so many legends of this person, it would be awesome to have some real facts to back them up. I have no doubt there was such a person. But who he actually was, I think it still up to debate. Thanks for sharing this intriguing information!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Heidi, yes it seems these days that many of the missing pieces are coming together, I wonder what else is out there to stump us? nell


Jackie Lynnley profile image

Jackie Lynnley 17 months ago from The Beautiful South

I think you know before I speak what I believe and I go by the oldest history book in the world. I know it is a fascinating story to many but the one I believe is even more so. God said He was the Father and I believe every word He says. Once you "know" Jesus; you have no doubt of who He is.

A little surprised and sad of course you didn't read my history book but always love you, our dear Rose. Always will, no matter what you believe.


MartieCoetser profile image

MartieCoetser 17 months ago from South Africa

This story sounds more real than the one in the Bible. I also agree that Jesus was in SPIRIT the son of God. Keep in mind that ALL kings and queens were half-human half-god in the mythology of Mesopotamia (where Abraham lived in Ur), and also in the mythologies of surrounding areas, such as Canaan and Egypt. Also keep in mind that Jesus never said he was the son of God, although he had called God his father. His relationship with God was unheard of - calling Yaweh - the I am who I am, 'our/my father in heaven'. Totally unheard of! Jesus was mentally and spiritually far ahead of the average Jew and their narrow-minded leaders. I belief Jesus manages to sell his 'father-concept' to thousands who had yearned for a loving, caring, fatherly god, as the God of the Old Testimony was very strict and constantly busy punishing his disobedient nation.

In their quest for power, and perhaps also in an effort to save people from the cruel activities of paganism, and to establish a more civilized religion, the Church used (and abused) the philosophies of Jesus to fulfill the spiritual needs of the people of those days.

But does it matter? Definitely not, I would say. What matters is how we treat our fellow-humans today, and the rest of this awesome universe. Love, compassion, tolerance, the ability to forgive, all those traits that were demonstrated by Jesus, should be visible in all who calls themselves Christians. I really think that this is all that really matters.

Very interesting hub!


mikeydcarroll67 17 months ago

I think this is an interesting topic.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hiya Jackie, history book? did I miss out? sorry, I will have to come over and investigate! lol! I know what you believe, and to be honest I do too, this is one of those gossipy things, yes I believe people back there gossiped too, and this is the result, but no, I don't really believe it to be honest, coming over now, hope you got the info on your book waiting for me! lol!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Martie, oh you hit the proverbial nail right on the head! thats it exactly! from the reality of Jesus to the manipulation of the church, spot on! and yes it really doesn't matter as long as we treat each other with respect and follow the Christian way, thanks Martie, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Mikey, glad you liked it, nell


Jodah profile image

Jodah 17 months ago from Queensland Australia

Your hubs never disappoint on the score of interesting and intriguing Nell. I had never heard this theory before but it does sound at least a possibility to consider. There are very few actual records of Jesus life and the fact that the church has lied many times and only revealed certain texts and gospels doesn't' make all their claims totally believable. Even if it is true and Jesus is the son of Tiberius Pantera it wouldn't lesson his impact and importance in my eyes. If there are actually historical texts supporting this and it was a popularly held view at some stage it is definitely food for thought in the debate that has currently been active here on Hub Pages. Voted up. Well done.


Nellieanna profile image

Nellieanna 17 months ago from TEXAS

Fascinating, Nell. I've never heard anything about this. Now it's something to consider. I'm replying without reading other comments because it seems to need a personal kind of response. We all have many experiences and observations which inevitably 'color' our handling of a new (to us) proposition and possibility which could affect us.

My faith tends to be open to truth and to revere it, though I'm not sure 'TRUTH' is a realistic possibility to inhabitants of Earth. But whatever it is has my respect. A maze of half-truths, outright lies, misinterpretations & misrepresentations is not where I particularly expect to unearth truth. I'm interested in probing but not expecting to find the 'magic truth bullet' as a result of it.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure that in the traditional Biblical record of Jesus life, (sketchy as it is and as subject to tampering by those in whose interest it would be to insert or delete whatever served them), that Jesus ever unequivocally claimed to be the son of God, born to a virgin who was somehow spiritually inseminated by God. He spoke of his Mother, Mary, but never of his Parents as being Mary and God. He spoke of Joseph as his male Parent, in fact. It would be unlikely that he'd have known of this Roman soldier. He grew up with Mary and Joseph as parents, if that part of the story holds water.

The virgin birth was prophesied in the Old Testament, I think, and there was perhaps a tendency to interpret his conception and birth accordingly, but he, himself, seemed to have emphasized his heavenly spiritual father in his own recorded passages, whatever others may have claimed in his behalf. Even crying out , "My God, why has thou forsaken me?" on the cross is similar to what humans tend to think when our hopes are dashed and misfortune comes our way.

Then, because of his spiritual enlightenment, he says, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

I've always felt that Jesus taught that all humans are spiritual sons and daughters of God. I don't find that beyond the stretch of possibility. In any case, we are who we are here and now and we define ourselves as we live our lives.

I like Jesus' teachings of fairness, kindness and loyalty. He doesn't teach one thing and do another. He is, as presented in the traditional Bible, a good example of what he teaches & I respect that, whoever fathered him.

When I think about it, the entire 'reality' of this or anything else handed down by tradition and 'history', as we think we know it, is more tenuous and subject to interpretation than to actual 'truth'. Even more secular "facts" are tenuous. Even cosmic science suggests the tenuousness of all we think we know. Perhaps the only 'reality' is the spiritual, whatever that really is. Perhaps the only 'faith' that matters is in accepting the unknown and embracing the goodness that we can know and experience.

But to delve into possible other explanations makes sense and does not distress. Truth, whatever it is, IS.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Jodah, yes one door opens then the floodgates do to! lol! I have a couple more up my sleeve after this one, in fact one of them really makes sense, but we shall see! lol! thanks as always, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Nellieanna, yes I do totally agree with you. even if what is written in the Bible about Jesus' daily work and miracles is true he definitely never ever says that he is Gods son, in fact he deliberately states that he is the 'Son of Man'! which seems to me to say that Jesus knew exactly who he was! even if the Church decided to change it for their own means! As you said, its how he taught, spoke, and was kind that mattered more than his biological father, thanks, nell


WiccanSage profile image

WiccanSage 17 months ago

Wow, Nell Rose, I had no idea. This is very compelling indeed. Personally I'm of the opinion that if there was a historical Jesus, he must have had a father, because I don't believe in the divine birth but I wasn't aware there was any theory as to who that father might have been. Origen is not even a historian I've ever heard of, and I've done a fair share of reading about the origins of the Bible so this is very exciting.


Jewels profile image

Jewels 17 months ago from Australia

I see you are quite busy following this revelation Nell! I don't think the truth will ever be told, and I often think we look in the wrong place for it anyway. It's an inside job, all spiritual work is an inside job. Perhaps the stories have been an almighty distraction from the truth, which is within and not in written doctrines and stories. When reading parables and gospels, when applied to an inside level of transformation they make sense. Applying it as a story to fathom historical occurrences, often makes no sense. If the bible's purpose was to divide and confuse, its job has succeeded. Paradoxically, internal transformation is confusing to the lowly mind. Go figure!


Nellieanna profile image

Nellieanna 17 months ago from TEXAS

It's all in the form of written words & spoken word-quotations and we all know how easily and quickly those are processed by readers and hearers and come out differently to each. If I say to my next door neighbor, "It's a lovely day," what he or she may register is that I have it better-than OR that it's not so great, we need rain badly OR that I obviously just don't understand that his great aunt Sally is ill. Add to my original statement that "It's an interesting day," and the possible diversity in interpretations multiply.

But a demonstration of kindness, acceptance, gentleness or compassion is seldom misinterpreted. Those are spiritual messages which transcend mere words.


Romeos Quill profile image

Romeos Quill 17 months ago from Lincolnshire, England

Hi Nell; wow; another thought-provoking, seductive and controversial Hub by you for which I hope to offer a few answers and hopefully put your mind at ease regarding your Hub title question:-

" Was Jesus' Father Really a Roman Soldier Named Tiberius Pantera?

As far as I've discovered, the soldier ' Tiberius Iulianus Abdes Pantera ( c. 22B.C - 40 A.D. ) was first suggested as a father of Jesus by a man named Celsus, a pagan Greek philosopher, whom you've mentioned, from the 2nd century C.E. who was vehemently anti-Christian, so there is an immediate bias there from the outset.

Moreover, if Jesus had been born of a Roman soldier ( who was a Roman citizen also? ) then he could not have been crucified under Roman law because, according to said law, a Roman citizen could not be crucified but would have been beheaded instead. Additionally, according to Porcian ( 248B.C ) and Sempronian ( 123B.C. ), Roman citizens were exempt from scourging ( verberatio ) - Jesus Christ was scourged before his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension into heaven.

Furthermore, crucifixion was reserved for non-Roman enemies of their empire such as vile criminals, pirates, crimes of treason ( referred to as ' summum supplicium ' ) and army deserters for which method of execution was later repudiated under the reign of the emperor Constantine centuries later according to historian Aurelian Victor, with the most unambiguous record of this form of execution being repealed under the Code of Theodosius, published more than a century after Constantine's own death.

As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to suggest that Tiberius Iulinius Abdes Pantera was a soldier that served in the same region at the time of Jesus Christ's conception.

The slander/libel/hypothesis was further compounded by a man called James Tabor based upon the claims made by aforementioned pagan, anti-Christian Greek philosopher Celsus. It is also referred to in the Jerusalem Talmud, Tosefta ( Jewish oral law from the late 2nd century period ) and Qohelet Rabbah ( Ecclesiastical literature commentary ), and an anti-Gospel called ' Toledot Yeshu '{ ( ' Life of Jesus ' - this chronicle dates from the middle ages) ( yes; sadly anti-Gospels exist )}. They were written later, the earliest being circa 4th century A.D.

The ' Toledot Yeshu ' is unhistorical, full of wild tales and thus, dismissed as primary evidence by serious historians and investigative, biblical archaeologists as far as I'm currently aware.

The Talmud does contain an account of one ' Jesu ' ( or Joshua ) ben Pandera who was a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, a well-known and prominent rabbi of his time. This ' Pandera ' character was accused of sorcery, deceiving Israel and estranging people from God and subsequently tried, convicted and stoned to death. So this ' Jesus ' cannot have been Jesus Christ either based on this account alone.

Some sources:

Mathew-Luke. " The Bible Knowledge Background Commentary." Evans, Craig. The Bible Knowledge background Commentary Vol. 1. 2003. 146.

Tabor. "The Jesus Dynasty." The Jesus Dynasty. n.d. 64-72.

" We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts " was a quote by Al Franken ( U.S. Senator from Minnesota ), which I think sums it up quite pertinently.

There are so many letters, so-called gospels and revelations circulating out there, some of which I've read myself, which have been dismissed as Gnostic heresies, fabrications, distortions and subtle deviations from the True Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament and some of which are mediaeval forgeries, most probably for the express purpose of raking in the cash ( what else? lol! )etc...

Here are just a few from a list I've encountered so far: videlict;-

i/Letters of Pilate and Herod. ii/Letters of Pilate to Herod. iii/The Epistle of Pontius Pilate. iv/The Report of Pilate the Governor to Tiberius Caesar at Rome. v/The Trial and Condemnation of Pilate. vi/The Death of Pilate. vii/The Lost Gospel According to Peter. viii/The Gospel of Andrew. ix/The Gospel According to the Twelve Apostles. x/The Gospel of Basilides. xi/ The Gospel of Cerinthus. xii/The Revelation of Cerinthus. xiii/ An Epistle of Christ to Peter and Paul. xiv/The Gospel of the Ebionites. xv/ The Gospel of the Encratites. xvi/The Gospel of Eve. xvii/The Gospel of Matthias. xviii/The Gospel of Peter. xix/The Gospel of Philip. xx/The Gospel of Thaddaeus. xxi/The Gospel of Truth by the Valentinians. xxii/ The Gospel of Thomas. xxiii/ The Gospel of Valentinus, and xxiv/The Revelation of Stephen.

The list goes on....but I won't, you'll be pleased to hear lol! :)

Fascinating article, nevertheless.

Yours Sincerely;

R.Q.


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

Writers of the Talmud, which was compiled during the centuries following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., represented the Sanhedrin as an ancient body. They imagined that it had always been composed of scholars who met to debate points of Jewish law and held that it dated from the time Moses assembled 70 older men to help him lead Israel. (Numbers 11:16, 17

Fables.

Judaism was filled with such false stories, the traditions of the elders making up the so-called oral law that came to be incorporated into the Talmud.

 

As an example of one of these false stories,

Does God Really Care About Women

The Talmud quotes one Rabbi as saying: “Whoever teaches his daughter Torah [the Law] teaches her obscenity.”

The Mishnah (a collection of commentaries that became the foundation of the Talmud) warns against staying in the homes of ʽam ha·ʼaʹrets.

The Talmud quotes another rabbi as stating that “uneducated people will not be resurrected.”

By Jesus’ day, however, legalistically minded rabbis had added to it a mass of extra-Biblical rules, many of which were later recorded in the Talmud.

The point is the Talmud credibility can not be relied on because of bias quotes and seemingly prejudices.

Another thought here about Joseph JESUS

earthly Father would not be president over the Heavenly Father( Jehovah )who gives life !

not only to his first born son in Heaven and on earth , but to all his creations.

that would be the most important thing to focus on , because Jesus was a gift to humanity that we should not live to die but continue life in the future, even paid for are those that sleep in death they will soon return.

Notice the most important thing we all can focus on

Ac 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

JESUS !


tillsontitan profile image

tillsontitan 17 months ago from New York

Well Nell, seems like you've picked a winner again! You never disappoint. Your research is impeccable. Whether I agree or disagree with this theory you have written it well.

I knew about the Immaculate Conception, having learned it in school. When things are passed down for centuries there is bound to be some discrepancies. Tell someone a secret and see how it comes out thirty people later, and that's the same year!

Voted up, useful, awesome, and interesting.


bravewarrior profile image

bravewarrior 17 months ago from Central Florida

Nell, this is the first I've of heard of this theory. I always questioned the Immaculate Conception. It just doesn't make sense. I believe Jesus existed but it makes more sense that he had two human "makers".

What I don't understand, is if the church felt they needed to cover up Jesus' true beginnings, why have they chosen a so-called bastard to be the one Christians pray to? If the story of his birth has been fabricated what other stories have we been led to believe that are untrue? What proof do we really have of his powers?

So many questions and this raises even more.

Excellent article, Nell and so much to ponder...


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Phew! lol! Romeos! thanks for all the added info, I of course have no idea if this was true or not, but I do have an opinion. After doing all the research and reading some pretty nasty sections of 'certain' religions which I won't mention because of repercussions, because believe me when I read it I was actually in tears that these so called writers of the old holy books could be so cruel and disgusting in how they claim that Jesus was conceived...its all out there if you choose to look, I even surprised myself how upset and angry I got at them..! anyway, back to my point, I believe Pantera was not a Roman himself he was in fact recruited in the holy land, so he was Jewish, but the reason why he was never mentioned when Jesus was crucified and beaten is that it was just that, a rumour. it was probably true in the beginning, but Pantera himself would never admit being the father, whether Jesus was born out of love or something nastier, so to the locals Jesus and Mary would probably have been regarded as Jewish, with rumours! but I get your point, and yep I guess we will never know. but we have to take into consideration that early Christian religious leaders believed it too! Jesus definitely has a background that we don't know about, but does it matter? no, I just think it makes him more awesome! thanks for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

HI Wiccan, thanks so much for reading, yes it surprised me too! lol! I find out these stories and history by literally tripping over them so to speak while reading or researching something else, and then I get my teeth into it! lol! thanks, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Jewels, so true. I think its what we call Chinese whispers, some of its true, others are lies and the rest is rumours, but as for the man I still think he was something special, and at the end of the day, thats all that matters as far as I can see, thanks for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Nelllieanna, that is so true, and at the end of the day that is all that matters, thank you, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks KissandTales, I never knew that, interesting stuff! thanks for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Mary, lol! I get my teeth into these and don't let go! yes so true, I have no idea of the truth either, it just got my interest purely because I was reading something else and I found this, and thought what?? lol!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi bravewarrior, I would imagine that back then all men were the leaders, no women were important not even Mary. So even if she had been made pregnant by another man it wouldn't have mattered who he was back then, only that he was amazing, and did miraculous things, and of course the fact that he had hundreds of disciples and followers helped to set the way, thanks for reading, nell


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

What is very true that all agreed on was that a Messiah would appear. No matter

Who agreed or disagree of who it was., all knew one was coming, the problem is why did they reject the real one? , because he was not their political choice , he did not fit their Standards of who would further their powers and positions, they were already over righteous making extra laws that was not valid for their own conveniences

Yet Jesus was far from their characters.

They had him killed , but no others had proved they were the messiah by the prophecy that was written long ago.

Notice the ones who appeared after 70 CE

False Messiahs. After Jesus’ death, the Jews followed many false Messiahs, as Jesus had foretold. (Mt 24:5) “From Josephus it appears that in the first century before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 C.E.] a number of Messiahs arose promising relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers.” (The Jewish Encyclopedia,Vol. X, p. 251) Then, in 132 C.E., Bar Kokhba (Bar Koziba), one of the most prominent of the pseudomessiahs, was hailed as Messiah-king. In crushing the revolt that he led, Roman soldier skilled thousands of Jews. While such false Messiahs illustrate that many Jews were primarily interested in a political Messiah, they also show that they properly expected a personal Messiah, not just a Messianic era or Messianic nation. Some believe Bar Kokhba was a descendant of David, which would have aided his Messianic claim. However, since the genealogical records evidently were destroyed in 70 C.E., later claimants to the office of Messiah could not establish proof that they were of David’s family. (The Messiah therefore had to appear before 70 C.E., as Jesus did, in order to prove his claim as the heir of David. This shows that persons still looking for the Messiah’s earthly appearance are in error.) Among such later false claimants to messiahship were Moses of Crete, who asserted he would divide the sea between Crete and Palestine, and Serenus, who misled many Jews in Spain. The Jewish Encyclopedia lists 28 false Messiahs between the years 132 C.E. and 1744 C.E.—Vol. X, pp. 252-255.


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

So now it clear of why a cover up, you have killed God's Son. And now you want to cover it by saying the messiah never came.

But now we are living in the end of time , where , he had to have already come before 70 CE. What is he doing now! gathering citizenship of his Kingship and everything is on time as written , moving on rather people agree or disagree. Jesus envite everyone , but many have declined

He comes to your doors with good News Of His Kingdom Government. Do you welcome him?


lctodd1947 profile image

lctodd1947 17 months ago from USA

Nell, I can see you have attracted a lot of attention. No, if you are a Christian; you know and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. One day if we are ready to meet Him; we will and then all of the mystery will be over, once and for all. With that said, you have done a great job with this article writing; photos etc. Thanks for sharing but I am like the others, never heard of this guy. Mary was the Virgin Mary.


kittythedreamer profile image

kittythedreamer 17 months ago from the Ether

Super interesting. I'd actually never heard of Jesus referred to as Ben Panthera or Pantera. Another piece to the puzzle that might never make the whole...thanks for sharing!


BeatsMe profile image

BeatsMe 17 months ago

Wow, this is a very interesting and fascinating story. Jesus is an important part of human history, yet His story has other versions such as this. :)


WiccanSage profile image

WiccanSage 17 months ago

Kiss and Tell, the Jews were following many potential messiah candidates from long before Jesus. They followed many during the time Jesus was supposed to have live, too... (Jesus wasn't one of them, though).


noturningback profile image

noturningback 17 months ago from Edgewater, MD. USA

Hello Nell,

I do appreciate your study and research on this man, Tiberius, and I did enjoy your style, even flair, for writing about him.

I, however, do not believe it.

I read through some of the responses, and I did a bit of research myself. It has been recorded that this man was in the area of Jesus' birth and there has been speculation as to him being the father of Jesus, but I can't find the place in the Babylonian Talmud where it documents this.

I know that the Talmud is a collection of oral traditions that were written down in the second century A.D. and with that I believe it is a jaded account.

Historically, we may never know Jesus' father, but as a Christian, I read Mark's, Matthew's, Luke's, John's, Peter's, Paul's and Jame's (Jesus' half-brother) account, these I believe.

Please, could we stop with sensationalism? It detracts from the gospel to promote this hypocrisy.


tobusiness 17 months ago

Nell, fascinating stuff. I love the response to this article, these things should be discussed and debated. I do believe that the Church tells us only as much as they want us to know. Do I believe the story? As you've said, it's possible. If true, should it detract from the central Christian message? I don't see why it should. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, elimating some of the fairy tales that surrounds the conception of Jesus, may even prove to be a positive thing at a time when churches are standing empty, well.. in the UK anyway.

I wasn't aware of this before so thank you for an Interesting read.

My best to you.


always exploring profile image

always exploring 17 months ago from Southern Illinois

I have never heard of this. Interesting read. There is much we do not know. Well done Nell...


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Good points noturningback, but I have to add that you say its sensationalism? I have to disagree with you. If it was taken as fact at the beginning of the Church and at the time of Jesus its not sensationalism it could be fact. Just because the Church has cleaned it up, dusted off the bad bits and turned it into a fairy story doesn't mean its not true, Jesus had a father, fact, was it this guy? maybe, but we have to realise that the Church chooses what it wants and doesn't want in the bible, thanks for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Jo, that's my feelings exactly! Jesus was a great man, what happened around him is nothing to do with the Man, thanks so much for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Kiss andTales, thanks once again for your added info, I am learning so much more, thanks again, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Ictodd, thanks so much for reading, and yes you are probably completely right! lol!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi kitty, thanks as always, yep and I haven't finished yet! lol!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks BeatsMe, yes there are many versions and stories around Jesus, I honestly think each and everyone of the them has an iota of truth, thanks for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Ruby, yes there is so much we don't know, but I love finding out the history of any religion, whether its true or not, I actually believe that people back then believed it, rumours? maybe, thanks nell


drbj profile image

drbj 17 months ago from south Florida

You are certainly making your readers think with this piece, Nell. Whatever his origins, I think most of us would agree that Jesus was an extraordinary human being.

And organized religions tell the people what they want them to know.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi drbj, yes that's right, organized religions do have their own agenda and try to ignore history, which is a shame purely because the more we know the better for the religion, thanks so much for reading, nell


Barbara Kay profile image

Barbara Kay 17 months ago from USA

Jesus was a common name at the time. It means the same as the name Joshua - God is with us. The story is one I don't believe for a minute. I love the stories you've had on here, but this one is a myth if I ever heard one. Of course the Jews would rather believe this tale, since the truth would make them guilty of a terrible crime.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Barbara, yes you are probably right there, its a strange one isn't it? and why have we never heard it before even thought its all over the Internet and old beliefs? we shall never know, thanks so much for reading, nell


MsDora profile image

MsDora 17 months ago from The Caribbean

Nell, you're so good at finding these interesting stories; this one was also fascinating. There have been several accounts about Jesus different from the Bible account. I agree with you that much have been left out so I read them all. Thanks for another one.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi MsDora, thanks so much for reading, yes they are fascinating stories aren't they? whether they are true or not, its just history, thanks, nell


grand old lady profile image

grand old lady 17 months ago from Philippines

Interesting article. However, I still believe Jesus was the son of God. To be a son of man takes away from everything Jesus is, such as the example of a leader from heaven who takes on a human body and chooses to be a carpenter's son. This is a great lesson in leadership by example for man. And the idea of Jesus, (God as man) dying for our sins is a perfect example of a leader who loves his people. It gives us an example of what we can expect from a leader and leads us to disregard anything less than what God felt we deserved.

As for all those other stories and legends which existed but which were excluded in the Canon, I think this was a necessary exercise. Even today, in the digital era, there is fact and fiction running rampant, and you have to discern one from the other, rather than include all together because it is about one celebrity or personality. It is the fair thing to do, but one who cares about the truth for the good of others will want to get the accurate story across, warts and all.

However Nell, I always appreciate your articles because they are different and well researched and I believe in learning for its own sake.


Larry Fields profile image

Larry Fields 17 months ago from Northern California

Hi Nell. You've written another outstanding piece of detective work! in another context, Sherlock himself said: This is a two-pipe problem!

As a card-carrying Bah Humbug, I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is every bit as real as the official fairy tale about JC.

Like you and Marie, I also believe that at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is The Golden Rule. Everything else is window dressing.

In my opinion, rank-and-file Catholics are far more decent than their leaders. Example: Joe Ratzinger was up to his neck in covering up priestly crimes against children.

Let's see if I've got this straight. Artificial birth control is supposed to be a sin. But let's not talk about serial felonies committed by individual priests, and about the routine spin control and cover-ups on the part of the hierarchy. Yeah, right.


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

Grand OL. You have spoken truth , because all humans that came from Adam are corrupted and born with imperfections that is sin.

A Messiah would pay for a cure and our continued life in the future.

Jesus was perfect and the seed of the Heavenly Father Jehovah, no genetic imperfections was present in his body.

He could adopt us from Adam as his own to live forever .And he did ! He paid the price by

Death of his own life to give us a future.

No humans born could top his value and pay so high.


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 17 months ago from Wasilla, Alaska

I finally have some time to read. It was in the Talmud. Jewish folk are historians, which is a great deal more than we can say about the early Christian Church!

Not only do I believe that Pantera could be the Lord's Father, but I also believe that Yeshua was Father to a child by Mary Magdalene, whose surname is Montclair or Clairmont.

For me, I still feel great peace praying to Joshua bar Joseph, or Joshua bar Pantera..

I love your courage on this one, Nell, and always, you provide a great read... love yaz, lily


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

The problem with this theory is that Jesus had to be born perfect to replace Adam who

Passed down sin and death to all his offspring. The heavenly Father took his perfect firstborn Angelic son and transplanted his life into Mary as an baby. This would make Mary the carrier . The point is no imperfect human could pay the price for the many people of many generations that have born to receive what Adam and Eve lost for us.

And imperfect man can not pay for an imperfect man they are in the same boat.

but a perfect man can pay for an imperfect man. Jesus was made in the flesh to save many from dying forever and paid for each and everyone to continue life in the future soon we will see.

So to conclude this could not be the case because Jesus offered his life in our Behalf

We belong to him .

another man has not died for us all nor has he approach God in our behalf because .nor

can he appear before the the person of God

Ac 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”


Frank Atanacio profile image

Frank Atanacio 17 months ago from Shelton

I'm not a Christian, and have no religious support for Jesus, but had I been, this would have dramatically gave me pause. I do have a question.. if this were something really tangible, shouldn't this not be an editorial innovation, but a Christians' major event? None the less you collected and presented strong questions Great hub...Frank


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks grand old lady, you have great points there, and of course we all have our own opinion and each one matters, thanks so much for reading, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Larry, yes that's totally right, and in this case we have to find our own truth within JC's story, all I know is that Jesus must be real there is too much written about him from that time, but anything else is just window dressing, for me it just makes him more real, thanks as always, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hiya lily, yes I tend to be on the same idea as you, he was real, he was married and he was amazing too, and that is all that counts as far as I am concerned! lol! but that's my opinion, always great to see you! nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Kiss and Tales :)


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Frank, we have had two thousand years of the Christian Church or Catholics telling us what to think, do and pray, if you think about it its only been a couple of hundred years since we have been able to read the bible ourselves, and less than a hundred that archaeologists and biblical historians have been sifting through the truth, I believe there is more out there to discover about the bible and other religions too, thanks as always, nell


Vellur profile image

Vellur 17 months ago from Dubai

An interesting and fascinating read, never knew about the Pantera bloodline till I read your hub.


Thelma Alberts profile image

Thelma Alberts 17 months ago from Germany

Now Nell, you reminded me of one of the movies about Jesus when he was called Ben Pantera. I can´t just remember which movie that was. You have written an interesting and thought provoking hub. Well done! I have already wondered in my childhood years about Mary having an immaculate conception. Every time I asked my late mother about this when I was a child, I was scolded. She said, I should believe what the catholic church preached. Now as a middle age woman, I learned and read many things about the catholic religion. I really believe that there are lot of stories hidden by the church.


quicksand profile image

quicksand 17 months ago

Jeez! (Only an exclamation, not a prayer or an appeal to any denizen of history!) I've noticed, in the recent past, history is getting blown to bits! Hope this won't happen to science!


Suhail and my dog profile image

Suhail and my dog 17 months ago from Mississauga, ON

Well, this was a very well researched and off the beaten path hub. I never knew about Pantera or Panthera and Jesus being his son, except that there was a heavy metal band by that name. They may still be around.

The theory you have presented is certainly different from what Bible tells us. It is also quite different from what Islam tells us. While Quran states and Muslims believe that Yeshua was born of virgin Mary ordained by God, he was not born of God. So Yeshua was a Man, but had no man-father, just virgin mother.

Oh and another thing - Muslim historians also suggest that Jesus was turned into God's son by Paul, who merged historical Jesus with a mythical Roman god figure to create son of God to seek popularity with Roman audience. It was because of this invention in religion that Paul was actually kick out of places of worship by other Apostles of Jesus (as mentioned by Paul himself in one of his Letters).

Very interesting indeed!


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

Some time people lose sight of why Jesus came , he came to purchase human lives that had no hope of continued life. Like Adam and Eve are dead forever never to return. The Father new it was not our fault

So he provided a future for Adams offspring.


Kiss andTales profile image

Kiss andTales 17 months ago

Just like a donor who gives a kidney, or organ for transplant to save a life.

Jesus was a donor to all humans to continue

life even past death, many will return. His body being of the first born of God would set

His value so high he covered generation's of people even until now until the end comes.

Man can not purchase another man's freedom from death, nor his future into paradise on earth. But Jesus has done this for us.


Ben Zoltak profile image

Ben Zoltak 17 months ago from Lake Mills, Jefferson County, Wisconsin USA

There is so much hate and deceit in religion, that I have turned away. Although I give the new pope some props, he's genuine in his facts and even his humbleness. Interesting topic though, another Ben! Haha. What I wish there was more of, is the reference points of non-religions texts, the Roman manuscripts mentioned above.

Cheers Nell,

Ben


aviannovice profile image

aviannovice 17 months ago from Stillwater, OK

If the church really knows anything, which is doubtful in my opinion, it would settle a lot if we all knew the truth, instead of lies shrouded in mystery. I had never heard any of this, so I am glad that you brought it up. Perhaps it would bring mankind closer, if we all knew the reality, and we could all get along as we were meant to do.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi vellur, thanks for reading, and I am glad you liked it, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Thelma, yes I totally agree with you, what we learned or where taught is really unraveling now isn't it? thanks again, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi quicksand, lol! no I don't think it will happen to science, at least science changes everyday, its not stagnant! thanks so much for reading, nell


DzyMsLizzy profile image

DzyMsLizzy 17 months ago from Oakley, CA

Personally, I don't believe in the bible as anything more than a collection of fairytales. Allegories at best; pulp fiction at worst. It may present something of a snapshot of the times, nothing more.

Recently, though, I came across something that for me, holds more evidence of the truth of my opinions:, and that is the fact that there seems to be no mention of the man Jesus by any one of the people who would have been his contemporaries:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceof...

Your article is interesting, and paints a more realistic picture than any supposed virgin birth, that's for sure. But I find the reference I've cited as pretty compelling evidence that the whole thing is a fabrication.

Voted up and interesting.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Suhail, lol! yes I remember the Metal band called Pantera! thanks for reading, I didn't know about that history, but it just proves its as made up as the rest, thanks nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Thanks Kiss and Tales, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Ben, yep I love the Pope too, he is a good guy! and as for the word Ben it really is ben, meaning son of! LOL! but nearly right, and yes it would be great if there were more references from Roman history, thanks as always, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Deb, I totally agree with you, get rid of all the rubbish surrounding religion and just believe, but don't knock other peoples religions, thanks, nell


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

Hi Lizzy, I totally agree with you! so much of the bible is about what is going on around and about, history at its best, getting it wrong sometimes at its worse! I will go and read your link thanks, but I do have to say that I do believe there was a man called Jesus, purely because of the Nag Hammadi scrolls found in 45, thanks as always, nell


Genna East profile image

Genna East 17 months ago from Massachusetts, USA

Hi Nell...

Fascinating article. I don't think it matters, and I happen to believe in God. It was through the gifts of Jesus, and His message, wherein lies the true spirit of Christianity.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 17 months ago from England Author

I totally agree with you Genna, its who he was as a man not where he came from, thanks so much for reading, nell


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 17 months ago from southern USA

Hi Nell,

I don't belong to any particular religious denomination or anything, but I am a Christian for I am in a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God and Man. I think this here is a lot of gossip as you stated in a comment. I don't believe it for a second. He has revealed Himself to me. The name Jesus was common back in that day for sure, and there may have been one who is the son of a Roman solider, but not Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

In Luke 22: 69-70 Jesus states He is the Son of God, "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.” 70And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.” 71Then they said, “What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

As Jesus states while on the cross, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

I am glad you are searching.

Peace and love always


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Thanks Faith, I am a bit of a religious historian if I care to admit it! lol! so anything new that comes along I get interested in it, but to be honest I am not sure about this, you are probably right! thanks for reading, nell


LS Bailey profile image

LS Bailey 16 months ago from Los Angles, CA

Thank you Nell so much for providing truth. Although, the truth is suppose to set one free, it can scare others who are religious instead of spiritual.


FlourishAnyway profile image

FlourishAnyway 16 months ago from USA

Fascinating topic, Nell, and I, too, had not heard of this. You certainly do not disappoint. I don't trust that 2,000 years of church politics accurately reflect what happened.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Hi LS Bailey, thanks for reading, yes it may or not be true, but its certainly different from the bible version! lol!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Hi Flourish, me neither, I have never trusted the Catholic church especially after the way they acted in the middle ages! lol! thanks for reading, nell


lawrence01 profile image

lawrence01 16 months ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

Nell

This is interesting! The stories about Jesus' father have been around almost as long as Jesus himself! In fact in the gospel of John he's accused of being illigitimate.

A good hub well written but the reality is that after so long even if there was any truth (I don't believe there is) there would be no way to prove it.

Lawrence


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Hi lawrence, I never knew that about the gospel of john! Wow! and yes I totally agree with you, how would we ever know the truth? thanks for reading, nell


lawrence01 profile image

lawrence01 16 months ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

Nell

Its in John chapter 8 and Jesus is having one of his frequent arguments with the pharisees.

In verse 19 they ask him where his father is? They knew Joseph was dead and maybe the story of the virgin birth had already morphed?

Jesus returns the compliment later and that results in them wanting to kill him!

Also earlier the man born blind that Jesus had healed had resulted in another argument where the pharisees had thrown the poor guy out of the synagogue effectively ostracising him!

We think of Jesus as being "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild" but the truth is he was anything but and had frequent "bust ups" with the authorities!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Hi lawrence, lol! yes he certainly had a temper! but good for him! thanks for letting me know I will check it out some more, we always read the bible but never READ it!


lawrence01 profile image

lawrence01 16 months ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

Nell

Yeah. Sometimes "being more like Jesus" means getting angry! We've just got to try and do it for the right reasons!

Lawrence


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Hi lawrence, yep that is so true! I don't like the 'holier than thou' attitude of religion, I like the real man behind it, thanks for coming back, nell


CorneliaMladenova profile image

CorneliaMladenova 16 months ago from Cork, Ireland

I have heard about that Panthera speculation and this does not surprises me. Both Romans and Jews extremely hated Christians and Jesus so they invented this case to discredit the truth. :( Very interesting hub, by the way, learned many new historical facts from it, keep the great work, Nell :)


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 16 months ago from England Author

Thanks Cornelia, yes you may well be right there, I just love the historical value of it, thanks so much for reading, nell


Snowsprite profile image

Snowsprite 13 months ago from Cornwall, UK

This makes more sense than the Church version. I am surprised I hadn't heard of it before though. From what I remember Jesus had never claimed to be anything other than a man anyway and it was years later he was given a higher status. But that is just from memory. Although I do not believe for a minute that it was a virgin birth, I guess technically it would be possible these days with our technology and artificial insemination etc.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 13 months ago from England Author

Thanks snowsprite, yes its one of the theories, I don't think anyone will ever really know, thanks for reading, nell


DzyMsLizzy profile image

DzyMsLizzy 13 months ago from Oakley, CA

I just found another site that goes into great detail. It's very lengthy, but also thorough in its explanations and analysis.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/1stC_Hist.htm


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 13 months ago from England Author

Thanks lizzy, that's great! I will go take a look, nell


Greenhousewife profile image

Greenhousewife 12 months ago

Great Article! Now I have a new topic to read up on! Thank you!


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 12 months ago from England Author

Thanks Greenhouse, glad you liked it, nell

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