Who tempted Satan?


Who tempted Satan?

It seems that the question, who tempted Satan or who tempted the devil? Has no definite answer. This is because nobody, with absolute certainty, can explain what actually happened. People have expressed various views on this subject because its answer is relative. One of such diverse views can be seen on hub page forum where people discussed the subject without fear or favor.

The need for an answer to the question is because we often claim that the devil is responsible for our actions. That is we often claim that the devil tempted us or made us to do something wrong. Some schools of thought believe there is always a first cause. It follows that if temptation leads to sin and Satan tempts us to sin. Then someone must have tempted Satan for him to sin against God and fall out of glory.

The idea of Satan is not a generally acceptable theory. Some people do not belief that devil or Satan exists. Satan, to these people, is just a fairy tale. Some people claim that pride and greed made Satan to rebel against God while others oppose such claim by maintaining that Satan was perfectly made by God so how can pride and greed come into a perfect being without coming from a source that is imperfect.

While it is a fact it was never mentioned in the beginning of the scripture that Satan disobeyed God and how he did it. However, it seems that people now attribute all bad things and sufferings to Satan. Some people claim that Satan made Eve to eat the tree which means Satan is the same as the serpent. Then if that is the case the serpent was cured and the curses were clearly stated. For instance the serpent is to walk with its belly. Does Satan walk with his belly?

The main question which people asked is why did God create Satan?

Does it mean that God did not know that Satan will disobey him?

The question can be likened to why did God plant the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden?

Why was Satan set loose to tempt men after his disobedience?

Why did not God chain Satan or imprison him somewhere so that he would not tempt men?

Did God intentionally set the stage?

Is it right to for all men to belief the story of God and Satan as it was written by men without any fact to support such claims?

Does it mean that men do not have the right to put forward another theory that contradicts what was said just as we have seen in the current generations?

This discussion shall be continued in another hub “who said, Satan is in hell?”

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Comments 84 comments

davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 5 years ago Author

Readers and other Hubbers can post their comments on this issue while we await the continuation.


2besure profile image

2besure 5 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

Good question, and as God is perfect and knows all things, why would He create a creature(Satan) that would put this world in such turmoil?


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Lucifer or satan was considered to be the most beautiful of all of God's angelic creations, the thing about lucifer was though that he had an ego and he thought that he should be just like God too having all knowledge and all power. The angels of heaven loved and worshipped God above all else and out of egotistical jealousy Lucifer becomes jealous and demands to be treated as God and worshipped as God. But God denied him this.

Then God on the sixth day of creation after creating man, announces to the angels of heaven about his creation of man. Lucifer asks God why he created man and God states so that God could be loved and worshipped by yet another being of His creation besides the angels. Lucifer asks God will they love you because you command it from them and God answers yes because I am their creator. Lucifer then challenges God and states that if God expects man to love him and worship him, it must not be because God commands it, man must have the right to choose whether or not to do so.

Thus the rift in heaven and the creation of "Free Choice" for man.

God declares though that the angels of heaven do not have this Freedom to choose and that Lucifer and anyone who would follow his ways of thinking must leave heaven and live amongst man on earth.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 5 years ago Author

Besure, thanks for your comment and question. I trust that many people will give different answers to your question. It is just like asking, why did God plant the tree of wisdom when he should that Eve will eat it and give to Adam.

Dave, thanks for your comment. I want to know the scripture you got the discusions that happened in heaven between God, Satan, and other Angels. You mentioned that it happened on the sixth day so it good we get the records.How did Jealousy get into Satan,a perfect creature.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

David: Scripture does not cover all of this. Satan's weakness was not jealousy, but envy and ego.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 5 years ago Author

Dave, you said the scripture did not cover all of it so where did you get it? I know that other people say the same thing because someone told them it was so but they never asked it was known to be true. Envy or ego or whatever is not the problem. The problem is how did Satan, a perfect being created by God got involved in sin. How did ego or envy got into him if all things were perfect before Satan sinned.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 5 years ago from Atlanta Ga

The knowledge of knowing is what tempted Satan.What He knew was not enough,so He invaded uncharted grounds.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Angels are not perfect beings, but they are spiritual beings of Heaven. Who told you they are?

We humans are spiritual beings too. We were originally created as spirit. We were transplanted into a human form, but we are spirit. We are not perfect either.

Only God is perfect.

Lucifer's Ego, his jealousy of being lesser than God was his downfall, nothing more nothing less and it was brought by his desire to be God.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 5 years ago Author

Jack you are saying the same thing because the desire to know must come from somewhere so we are asking where did it come from? Dave, your comment means Satan was never perfect because he was not created perfect just like us. Then if you are right it means God never created perfect beings so why does he expect Satan or us to be perfect? It means God is selfish if he choose to be perfect alone. I trust you used Jesus word in that well others think God made all things perfect before sin came in.


Apostle Jack 5 years ago

It is a spiritual concept from which experience thereof is inspired to our spirits,and through the intellect of spirit that is given to us by God we make a choice as to except that inspiration or not.It is like the air,it is present all the time,and all one have to do is choose.

Spiritual concepts don't need a material bases from which to originate.


Apostle Jack 5 years ago

I think Dave have the wrong idea about perfection.God did not create imperfect spirits.Our choice and freedom thereof concerning our spirits is the cause of losing that stability.As of now,nothing in heaven is imperfect,and the word of God encourage us to be perfect as well..Matt 5 v 48

Christ was sent to show us the way to that perfect spirit.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

David: Think about it for a moment. When God created the earth etc. when He created man, he did not say it was perfect, he said it was good. Truly angels, all angelic beings were created by God, but none was made perfect, but all were made good, and for us to be able to distinguish this there has to be good and bad. Even The tree God placed in the middle of the garden it was known as "The tree of knowledge of good and of evil" Once man ate of that tree man knew good and evil which the angels already knew.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 5 years ago from Atlanta Ga

If only read between the lines,they would be able to see the forest beyond the trees.The bible do not say that smoking is harmful and kill the body.But it didn't have to in order for one to know that.So read between other lines as well that say more than is written.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 5 years ago Author

Apostle you mean that the concepts come to mind then we can decide if its an inspiration or not and you mean that is how the teaching come to be. I can give you a credit because that is how men developed the ideas of heaven, hell, etc. David you said God did not create anything perfect. He created things good so why does he expect his creatures to be perfect? okay, how did bad came into something God created good? Were did the bad part of our nature or creation come from since Good made all things good?


Mystery of the understood 4 years ago

It is written in scripture that God is a God knowing good and evil but he is a good God. That is why when Adam and Eve ate the fruit God stated "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:22, This could mean that God needed to separate the two knowledges. Make him the God of good and Lucifer the God of evil. I would think God was the original tempter of Lucifer, after all he did create Lucifer and gave him such power and authority in Heaven, only to bring Lucifer's demise. God knew everything, that is why he already planned Jesus to save man kind before the creation of this earth. "the lamb that was created before the foundation of the earth". That is why he planted the tree in the Garden of Eden. He expected man kind to fail. How long can someone not have something to the point were they crave it and desire it. It would have happened either way, with or without the serpent. It was a matter of time. Its authority/power/pride that should be considered the original sin. Lucifer fell because he wanted to be God, Man kind fell because they wanted to be like God. God knew in advance that these events would unfold, but he still went along and created all of this. Now why would God do such a thing? In my opinion I would say it was the purpose of preventing future rebellions from happening in Heaven. Yes, one can argue that wouldn't God know if a creation would try to challenge his power and rebel? yes he would know, and that is why I think we are here experiencing life, because God saw that to much of his creation would try to challenge him and overtake his throne, which is impossible,but to save himself the trouble and disrespect, God had to create a filter/earth/life to bring fourth only the righteous beings that are not power hungry. That is why the Bible say the meek and humble shall inherit the kingdom of God. There desire is not to be like God but to be next to him and worship the creator. That is the perfect creation with free will God wants to reign in Heaven with him. A creation that on it's free will would not threated the throne and power of God.The scripture states that the prideful reap destruction on themselves, why? because they see themselves better then others, pride knocked Lucifer out of Heaven, Pride won't allow you to enter Heaven. Now we have two Gods, A God of good knowledge and a God of evil knowledge. Two conscience knowledges with two different realities (heaven/Hell). Scripture say that one cannot have two master. one will love one master and despise the other one. Which is a very true statement. So be alert onto which conscience is sending you what thoughts and which one you are obeying more because that is the conscience you will spend eternity with. I hope this made some sense.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Well takes, mystery for your comment. I think you are right if we consider God as one that knows all things even the future. However, I now understand why someone said, "Men created God." Men do not really know God, most men do not know God, even the few that claim to know him or hear from him got different information about him and that is why we are still struggle to understand how to follow him if he truly exist (atheist). Remember that God regreted creating Men. So why regret when he knew it ahead?


Mystery of the understood 4 years ago

That is something I can't wrap my mind around either. Why repent if you knew. Does that mean God is not all powerful or he intended Jesus to rule earth with us before sin entered. There could be many what if and answers about God. All I can say is that to what science points at, what the cosmos point at, what the geology of earth points at, what the biology of the human body point at, is that there has to be a creator. Either it is the God of the Bible or not, a creator must exist. Our emotions is something we are born with, that is our program. No evolution could have programed us in to experiencing emotion. We feel the same emotions today that men has felt 4000 years ago. Emotions can not evolve. Can a computer program upgrade and expand on its own with out the help of a programmer/creator? certainty not. Our human biology and our world around us point towards a designer. I have not seen a computer program that can expand and upgrade and create new add-ons with out the code of knowledge being put in it to give it the information to grow and upgrade. Same with our existence, how can atoms who are just codes evolve expand and create on there own? It seems impossible. Its the same example as if you created a Robot, created and alternate universe for it in its head and created a program that let the Robot feel emotions and all other functions. Now imagine that Robot with the ability to learn starts making up theory's that contradicts his creation and existence. The robot starts theorizing that there was metal on earth and then evolution cause these metals to combine and give life to the robot. Now you can blame the robot for not knowing because you yourself have not shown him your face or something to point him your way. The robot is blamless, its only trying to make sense of its own existence. Except one thing, if the robot has the ability to process and think on its own then why does it look into the deep and try to explain its existence, then rather looking into the simple fact on how its programed. Why is it programed. Who programed it. Certainly someone who programed the robot must have the same or higher thinking process as the robot, but instead the robot looks in its alternate reality to try to make sense, except the alternate reality is made up by the programmer and will contain no clues of the robots existence. The robot has to look in its own thinking ability to get hints on how its existence and creation might have come to be. I hope my Robot example made sense in what I', trying to get through.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Thanks for your comment, once again and I trust some people can learn from your contribution that is why we are here. The main point is not really if there is a creator but for what purpose did he create some things and people even when he should know their contribution would be negative. so the question he did he create them for such negative contribution or did we just don't get it and make conclusion on issues. Can it be that God and Satan are partners and God uses him to achieve some aims? That is why the question we tempted Satan?


Delfina 4 years ago

Doesn't anyone think that there is a very human part in Satan, he's actions are like of any other man or woman, he wanted power, he didn't want to be the greatest archangel, he wanted to be God, and if you look back in to history you'll see that men only want power, they leave behind their morals, there goals for power and recognition, I think that in Satan is just like us, totally human.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

We are each born and was created with a choice,Satan choice to be as he is. As each one of us is given as well. We choose our own destiny.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jack if Satan had choice like us that did not answer the question because people claim he is the tempter and he is the reason sin came to earth so that didn't explain the first cause of sin. Delfina, thanks for your comment. It seems you are a guest here and I trust you will continue to contribute. You answer suggests that Angels are human or has a human part. Let us remember Satan was claim to be an Angel. Secondly, like I mentioned above,satan being human or do not explain how sin came into the world.


Just Wondering 4 years ago

Maybe Lucifer was not kicked out of heaven but instead volunteered to help create a place (Earth) where free will could truly be practiced. In order to do this Lucifer had to become anti-God. In doing so Lucifer manifested and become Satan/The Devil?... Sometimes it takes darkness to truly appreciate the light.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

If satan is a real entity and wants to destroy what God created, why didn't satan convince Eve to murder Adam? She didn't know the knowledge of good or evil, so nothing could stop such an entity from having the seed of man, let alone Jesus destroyed. Think about it.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Just wandering your answer reminded me of where its said God permitted Satan to tempt Job. SwordofMan Your point is good in a situation where Satan wants to destroy all that God created he could have obeyed Eve to kill the ignorant Adam by that way reproduction won't be there. My question is if God did not know that Satan would fight against him before he created satan or didn't God know Eve or Adam will disobey him?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

God knows all things, but most christians make satan out to be an ex-angel or at least an entity. As you cannot answer my first question, allow me another. What is the most wicked thing in the world?


Just Wondering 4 years ago

I would say man can be the most wicked thing in the world. There's no such thing as "the devil made me do it" because humans have free will to choose to act and think in a good or evil way.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

I have searched in scripture for what is called "free will", but I found the total opposite. I still never found God saying He gave us all free will.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Your 1st question: we can't claim to know the answer because it possible the devil did think about it but just wanted to make Eve and Adam disobey God like he did.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

The must wicked thing maybe our inability to keep the golden rule. Freewill has been used by some Christains ti justify way God didn't stop Adam and Eve from sinning or even the devil just like the quote "I present to you life and death..."


Jason 4 years ago

In regard to another ancillary matter ,which is different from the matter of who tempted Satan: the ancillary matter of why God would allow Satan to enter the garden of Eden (whatever the garden of Eden was ....as an aside I maintain Eden was another non-physical realm of a different ontological nature than this present Earth ) , there are some comments that ought to be shared in the present forum .

The only sensible conclusion (if we accept the premise that Satan is an sentient being) AND (the premise that God is infinitely good) for why God would allow Satan to enter the garden would be that God was hoping that Satan would witness Adam and Eve refusing to eat of the forbidden tree ,

IF Adam and Eve had chosen to refuse to eat of the forbidden tree , and had they chosen to REFUSE to eat the forbidden fruit , and that Satan would then be made ashamed by Adam and Eve refusing to eat the fruit , the upshot being that had Adam and Eve chosen *instead* to refuse to eat the forbidden fruit, made so ashamed by the fidelity of Adam and Eve (had a *different course* of action happened in the Garden of Eden), then Satan might be so awestruck by Adam and Eve being resolute in avoiding temptation that he might be moved to repent ...and stop becoming an agent of evil .

Had Satan repented , even if God was not inclined to take him back into fellowship with God , the good agenda of God would have been accomplished and Satan ...even if he obtained no reconcilation with God , or not full reconcilation...could have perhaps then just gave up on trying to cause trouble and have continied on as creature that just decided not to do much of anything and pose no more threats to God's creation ( be that creation humans , or angels , or any other creation) .

The following thesis is predicated on the notion that there are many possible future timelines even from the standpoint of God ...that it is a misnomer to use the term 'future' , and we should use the term 'futures plural ' .

The insight is that there are many possible timelines / many possible courses of events ---even from the standpoint of God .God is omniscient , however the omniscience of the courses of events that have not yet happened is a perfect , yet proablilistic sort of foreknowledge .

Those who construe foreknowledge in terms influenced by the rather lousy theologian Augustine , will probably balk at that suggestion .

However, it is far more plausible to maintain that the knowledge of God of courses of events that are not yet , but are still pending , is a perfect , yet probabilistic knowledge . Which is to say, that God knows what will happen in each timeline (somewhat like unto the notion of parallel timeline universes) and there was a timeline where Adam and Eve, having free will , would have chosen to refuse to eat the forbidden fruit (perhaps they may have ---in that timeline---reached out momentarily to try the forbidden fruit , but then decided to pull their hands back and forfeited the decision to transgress instead of going ahead and eating the forbidden fruit) *in that timeline* . It makes sense given the premise that the Creator had infinite goodness that God was hoping that such an alternate timeline where Adam and Eve shamed Satan into repenting by refusing to eat the forbidden fruit from the forbidden tree .

The notion that it was somehow necessary for God to allow Satan into the garden to get Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree , and that alleges that Adam and Eve would have not been able to have free will without Satan coming into the garden to try to influence them to act does NOT make sense .

Some have claimed that without temptation there can be no free will. However, the forbidden tree could have provided temptation enough even if Satan had not entered into the garden . Without the added pressure of a Satan egging Adam and Eve on, EVEN IF Satan had never come into the garden , the forbidden tree alone could have provided Adam and Eve with enough temptation ...where they could have decided when they saw the tree whether to resist the curiosity of what it would be like to eat the forbidden fruit and remain cautious , or to succumb to temptation *provided by the forbidden tree alone*, and so, free will could have still been possible even if Satan never came along and entered the picture .

The notion that humans having free will is somehow dependent on allowing Satan to try to do this or that , is weird , for it makes God dependent on Satan . To claim that God requires some scenario of allowing Satan to present pressure on people , denies the resourcefulness of God. The God who is infinitely resourceful would have a multitude of possible ways of endowing people with free will, that would NOT have to involve Satan doing this or that at all .

Again, the forbidden tree with the forbidden fruit mentioned in Genesis would provide the opportunity for people to have a free choice to choose whether to follow God or to go astray , even *without* Satan being involved in the picture . An infinitely resouceful God would not require any help Satan egging people on to sin , in order for the conditions to be in place for people to have a free choice, as to whether to follow God or go astray .

Hence , the only plausible conclusion as to why that Satan was allowed in the garden by God , was that God was hoping Adam and Eve would turn down the solictiations of Satan , and the result of that would be that Satan would be so humbled and awe stricken with shame , had they made that choice to turn down the forbidden fruit , that Satan would repent / call it quits .

A similar sort of scenario which postulates that God was hoping that Satan would be shamed into repentance , could be applied to the Job narrative . (Suspending the arguments made by some that maintain that the Job story was an allegory, let us proceed with the scenario that the events narrated in the book of Job were not allegorical but instead biographical , a more plausible interpretation of the story of Job was that God was hoping that Satan would be so ashamed with the loyalty of Job to God despite all the misfortune that Satan wreaked , that Satan would be so suprised that Satan was unable to get Job to curse God , that Satan would then repent / call it quits ...refrain from causing any more trouble and merely go into some sort of 'retirement' , ceasing from all the havoc Satan had been causing . Perhaps , even now the Job event may have a delayed reaction on Satan that one day might even get him to repent and not go through with what is predicted of him ---given some sort of futurist interpretation of the prophetic books ...

The scenario that God allowed Satan to do the evil deeds to Job and Job's family for some mysterious purpose that we are not meant to know, is a very weird interpretation and interpretation which is insulting to God ...one that takes liberties with the text , and one which *presumes* that the questions in the dialogue between God and Job , are rhetorical questions , when that interpretation is not explictly warranted in the text , and the questions could be ...given the premise of the infinite Goodness of God , be interpreted as dialectical questions .)


Jason 4 years ago

As a brief corollary to the notes above . I thought I would reference some scripture verses (and there are many more ) that indicate that from the standpoint of God , (NOT merely from the standpoint of humans) there are multiple possible future timelines .

Consider how God (Yahweh in Hebrew) tells Moses about several signs to show the Israelites and mentions to Moses how , 'if they will not believe you or hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the second latter sign ' (Exodus 4:8 ) and then in the next verse (Exodus 4:9) offers the recomendation of yet another sign that Moses could try to convince the Israelites if they do not believe the first , or second sign , thus indicating that God does not consider future events a completely settled affair, but instead one where there are many possible timelines with possible outcomes .

It is worthwhile to note that though there is a verse that states of God that he knows the end of a thing from the beginning , for different segments of time , new beginnings, for forking courses of action can be substituted for the *older* beginnings , (wherein series of actions can be substituted for other series of actions) so that Divine Foreknowledge would not necessarily entail single possible outcome for each possible path of actions that beings might take , but could be foreknowlege of many possible outcomes .

The analogy of a flow chart comes to mind when pondering a more plausible conception of how Divine Foreknowledge operates .

Such ancillary notes having been shared, I would like sometime in the days ahead to probe the inital main topic of the thread as to who tempted Satan ?

It certainly wouldn't have been God . God does NOT have some secret will that decrees any beings to sin (despite the weird and blasphemous claims of the Calvinists) . If Zephaniah 3:5 is correct that God 'will not do iniquity' , then God would not have some secret sovereign will , different from his moral will , that would foreordain any being to sin .


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Thanks Jason for your contribution here. I must admit that all that is being said both in the bible and here is based on personal assumptions and concept/understanding of the situation as non of us know what actually happened, why it happened, and how. God is said to be an all knowing God so he should know the outcome of placing the tree in the garden or allowing Satan to tempt Eve. Yet again, he wanted Satan to repent like you claim, We know satan didn't repent when Job failed him.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jason, also remember that the temptation is not just Satan tempting Eve but also who made him sin against God. Why he created the said devil. Why he planted the tree (evil) in Eden (good). There many questions that needs answers.


Jason 4 years ago

You are welcome , sir. Yes, there 's a lot to think about and ponder with all the stuff. I hope to engage in further dialectic regarding such matters soon . Tonight I'm kind of sleepy , so I will have to get some sleep before further dialectic and dialogue .


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Okay, am always ready to talk.


Guest 4 years ago

Sorry, I cannot agree with Jason. God must know the outcomes of all the possible futures or he is no longer omniscient. This is fundamental to his nature. A lot of Jason's thesis while very interesting, and certainly plausible, sadly remains plain conjecture. I tend to agree with David's line of thought. Still need answers though...


Jason L 4 years ago

Consider that the foreknowledge of God is a *conditional omniscience* ...or what might be called an omniscience with qualifications .

He foreknows that should a given timeline (a particular course of events) obtain then the outcome for that segment of time will be such and such an outcome , however, in a *different* timeline (a different course of events) a different outcome will obtain .

Some further proposals I would like to mention as further caveats to supplement the arguments previously posted , is that alternate timelines that did not obtain , would likely persist in the mind of God as vestigal objects of knowledge .

For example , a timeline where Adam and Eve did not go ahead with transgressing with the forbidden tree (where they may have had some fledgling stirrings where they almost gave in to temptation , but at the last moment refused and stopped what they were about to do ) and/or a timeline wherein the agent known as Satan may have had some fledgling impulses to go against God ---but in that possible timeline may have decided to resist the temptation to go against God , such alternate timelines would likely persist in some sense in the consciousness of God , perhaps in a way analogous to how in a dream sequence people might have some vestigal conception of how events would have been like ...if say, another course of events had been enacted in the wakeaday life (for example, if one were to dream that one decided to remain in a given house longer and not have sold it when one did in the wakeaday realm) .

All of those alternate possible courses of major events (alternate timelines) exist in a type of time that God inhabits called omni-time , or meta-time (which is the type of time that God experiences where he observes all the various alternate timelines ) .

The timelines that are different from our own timeline, after a correlate segment which is counterposed with a given segment in our own timeline which has already happened and is now a settled affair , become *less* existant / have *less* ontological potency since, when the juncture that happens in the timeline we are now in, actually comes to pass as a settled affair , *then* the paths *not taken* become endowed with a different ontological status / as well as a different epistemic status in the mind of God .

That change in the epistemic tag that God assigns various courses of action once which course of actions obtains becomes a settled affair , and is no longer merely a pending course , does NOT indicate that the knowledge of God was somehow lacking / it does *not* mean that God did not know in any intrinsic sense ...it just means that God assigns some epistemic tag of 'happened, *actual* course of events' , as opposed to the tag 'pending, *possible* course of events' at the interval in omni-time wherein a given timeline obtains a greater level of causal potency (aka is actualized) .

Thus , given the position being presented here , unlike some versions of open theism which claim that God was intrinsically unaware of the content of pending possible events in the futures , the proposal here is that there is at most a merely *extrinsic* un-awareness, NOT that God is intrinsically unware . So given the position I am proposing , which is something akin to a modified open theism more along the lines of Molinism , than the other looser forms of open theism , God still has an omniscience ...however, it is a conditional omnisicence : a foreknowledge with qualifications about it , rather than the usual way that people often conceive of Divine foreknowledge as involving a monololithic notion of a single future .

Again , the analogy of the computer flow chart comes into view . The proposal is that God has a foreknowledge of the courses of events which actualized , but also , He has a foreknowledge of what in epistemology and formal logic is called *'counterfactual'* courses of events (notably He foreknew that if event X happened then outcome A would have happened , and also foreknew that if event Y happened ---the event which did actually take place and thus led to the timeline we are in ---then outcome C would have happened ---as it did ) .

There are a number of Bible verses that conceptually entail , if we accept that the content of such verses are veridical , that the foreknowledge of God does foreknow counterfactual possibilities as well as actualized events --and , hence, such counterfactual alternate courses of events must have some sort of ontological status for God to have known them , if we accept the content of those particular scriptures (Jeremiah 26:13 , and Jeremiah 18: 7-8 ---the latter especially, which indicates , in a categorical way, that even *some* elements of Divine prophecy are defeasible and do not have to be fulfilled , *if* persons should decide to act in such a way as to warrant God repealing the pending punishments, are but a few examples in the scriptures of the Bible than indicate that God does *not* consider all elements of futurity to be a settled affair , and indicates that a case could be made that Divine omniscience can be perfect and yet still involve a tenativeness .

Here below is an observation that brings to light an important nuance .

Just like a given event when it takes place following a previous event in a series of possible events takes on the designatory tag which is classified by the word 'AFTER' when it takes place after a prior event in a timeline of possible events that is *before* it , and that process is noted by the Divine awareness *without* any loss of the perfection of God's infinite level of knowledge, and yet it involves an extrinsic change in the consciousness of God ---a change of a relational sort where God changes not Himself , but rather the relation of His perfect knowledge to how the object of knowledge is designated, so there is *no* loss in the Divine omniscience when there is an extrinsic change in the consciousness of God --where God assigns a different designation to the outcome of a possible course of events , when a particular course of events becomes actualized and is NO longer merely possible .

A further caveat which should be mentioned is the following /

When God Himself acts directly and without help from other agents , then the direct outcome would be monolithic , hence the verse 'known unto God are all His works from the beginning'.

However, the *direct* action of God when the particular action of God is *not* a response to a given created agent acting , but a pre-planned provision (which God is doing NOT as a reaction to created beings , since the latter is a different *type* of Divine Action than the former) involves a context of knowledge regarding the *necessary*. Whereas the knowledge of what created agents will do , is a context of knowledge that is *contingent* .

The distinction between knowledge of *necessary* contexts of knowledge and *contingent* contexts of knowledge is an important philosophical distinction that figures into the topic here . With the contingent courses of action that created agents (such as what course of action a person might take , or what course of action an agent like Satan might take) the Divine foreknowledge is of contingent objects of knowledge , instead of necessary objects of knowledge .

Hence, it would make sense to propose that God would 'hope' , 'wish' ect. that the contingent courses of actions that created beings (such as people or agents like Satan) will take in the time periods ahead , would be a good course of action *instead of* the bad course, which they often choose to do as agents with causal free agency / free will ...during those times they misuse their free will, when they could have chosen otherwise , and could have chosen to use the free will each time for good, had they chosen each time to put their minds to it) .

Now that all that has been presented , as supplementary arguments to the observations above, I hope eventually soon to get around to addressing directly the topic of what tempted Satan .


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Thanks Guest for your comment. Jason, you long comment did not really explain things easy and to the point. You mean God knows all things yet he will hope or wish that something happens? Don't you think is confusing and conflicting that you already know what will happen and yet you wish or hope that it happens or don't happen? Will you be surprise when what you already know would be comes to be? Secondly, you often mentioned timeline in the sense that God knows only within a timeline then after that he doesn't know any more or what? For instance when Jesus picked Judas he said he knew one of them was the devil so he knew Judas would betray him yet he picked him. So I don't get your argument in the sense that God did know but hopes or wished.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

David, choice made the difference between a perfect and a none-perfect image.Every choice that is made have a good or bad consequence. Satan made the wrong choice which is known as an evil consequence.

God Created all things perfect,but sin brought forth a separation between God and the perfect way.

Christ was predestine by God to come forth to show the way back to a perfect life by the words in which he spoke in that "Ye must be Born Again".

One can not be save unless they are born Again in the spirituality of God. One can not be born again by just believing, because believing is only the first step to a union with the Almighty God and to be recognize as a Christian .

So CHOICE is the main factor right and wrong,evil and good,righteousness and none righteous and save or not saved.

Our Choice create the image by which we express through what is call ......personality.

The correct Choice bring forth the correct image in that He first created our spirits. It defines whether or not we preside in His image,or in one that we created for ourselves.


Guest 4 years ago

@Jack, you don't seem to have understood the question I believe David is asking. If everything God created is perfect and good, there should not be sin ANYWHERE to serve as an option for choice. In a perfect creation, ALL the options available to every "free-willed" creature must by implication, be good choices. The fact that I am able to make a wrong choice simply means there is a wrong choice in the first place. This should not exist in a perfect world (or heaven).

@Jason, once again you bring up very intriguing ideas! Sounds eerily like the fellow in Men in Black III. Sadly, it still remains conjecture on your part (albeit a very entertaining one). Note two things:

1. God is known traditionally to exist outside the confines of time and space. These are human constructs that define reality for man. Not so for God. You are forcing him into this framework by insisting on your "conditional omnipotence" with different futures (TIMElines).

2. You have limited the definition of "omniscience" by your theory. I believe that is what David is pointing out to you. One cannot be omniscient if there are things hidden from you. Juxtapose this with "omnipotent" and you will get my point. Your theory translates that God can do "everything" but his power to do some things are lost when he does others. This is wrong. God can create death from life- the antithesis of the natural order. He can literally do (and KNOW) ANYTHING!

Very interesting debate David and I'm glad I stumbled upon it. Still waiting for answers...


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jack like the guest mention, how did sin came into something that was perfect? If God created all things perfect then sin should not be found in his creation.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

@David

Every choice that we make is not a good choice.So there are consequences for making the wrong choice which is call sin. Adam and Eve had perfect knowledge before they committed sin. Perfect knowledge was taken away from Adam and Eve,but perfect knowledge still exist in heaven. Christ was sent by God so that humankind could regain that perfect union with God.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

@Jack, refraze that. "So that humankind will regain that perfect union with God". It sounds more biblical and closer to the true nature of our Father.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

Not all of humankind will achieve this union with God.Only a remnant of humankind was predestine to be saved. To be born again is to regain that which was lost, because of sin. Perfect faith can be achieve along with perfect obedience to and in the will of God so that we can show forth His ways and image of life in our spirits that the world can see a difference between the image of the world from the image of God.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

You are mistaken friend.

2Cor 5:16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

If you think that everyone is going to heaven,you are the one that is mistaken my friend. Christ say in Matthew 7 v 21,22: " Not everyone that saith unto me Lord,Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And in the last part of verse 22 He said.......and then i will profess unto them i never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity.

Because sin is here don't mean we have to live in it. That is why God give us His holy spirit so that we can have the power to remove any sin and negativity that is within our life.

We are all invited to the marriage supper of the lamb after judgement day,but all people will not come because they are rule by sin and self agenda.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

The kingdom of God is in us all, not some place. You believe in an old man in the sky allergic to sin. I believe in a God of perfect love. As for Matt 7, Christ was talking to the Jews, not the gentiles.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

Anyone that come into the fold falls under the same guidelines. There is no separation of salvation. What Christ said to one He said to all that will follow Him.

If you think that the commandments of God only apply to the jews,then you are far off the mark than you realize my friend.

We as gentiles are adopted into the family of God through Jesus Christ.

It is written that as many as are led by the spirit of God,they are the sons of God.Rom 8 v14-17

May God open your eyes to the truth my brother.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

Friend, I once believed in your church nonsense, and God opened my eyes to His plan. Christ said Himself that He came only to minister to the lost house of Israel, not the nations of gentiles. If my theology is wrong, why didn't Paul warn the gentiles about the fires of Gehenna, let alone hell? Acts 20:27 says he taught us all what God wants us to know, but no where in his letters does Paul warn the gentiles about Gehenna, let alone hell.

We are all His children just as He is Father to all.

Eph 4:6One God and Father of all,

who [is] above all, and through

all, and in you all.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

Have you ever thought about the reason that God did not provide His knowledge to you is because you consider Him as nonsense?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

Have you ever wondered why Paul never warned the gentiles about Gehenna, let alone hell?


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

Paul spoke about judgment day,and being save or not saved. All one have to do is read between the lines. The word hell don't have to be mention anywhere in the bible to know that there is a place for those that obey God...and those that don't.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

If you combine a carnal view to scripture with fear, blind ego, self-righteous pride, a hidden desire for vengeance and spark the religious engine with a pharisitical spirit. You get a determined believer of hell. To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance without mercy would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him a hypocrite with the utmost malignity. People like yourself who are determined to believe in hell, not only desire the justice you feel the lost deserve, you are spiritual terrorists. How did Christ, who is God in the flesh judge the adulterus? He didn't! Paul never spoke about hell, because ity does not exist. You talk about reading between the lines, but you cant read the white yourself. Paul also taught about the ministry of all being reconciled to God through Christ, but you probably ignored that part. Paul also told Timothy that God is the saviour of all mankind, and especially the believers, but you probably ignored that part too. Just the thought that all are saved is loathing to you. It doesn't apeal to you because it wouldn't justify your obedience or time of worship.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

If Christ was God .....who did God call father? And sense God do not have a father. Christ could not have been God. It is a misinterpretation to believe other wise. Atheist and Satan worshipers do not have a place in heaven so where you get the idea that all humankind will be saved?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

God!


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

And what scripture do you base your opinion on which states that God said everyone is going to heaven?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

Ah, lets see.

Col 1:20

1Tim2:3-4

1Tim4:10

1Cor3:10-15

John3:35

John6:39

Romans5:12-21

Heb10:10

1Cor15:22

Rom3:3

Rom11:32

Rom5:18-19

Want more?


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jack as a response to your first comment, at least all those that believe in sin do agree that sin is when we do that which is wrong but the question is how did sin came into a perfect being? How did something wrong come to be a part of something right? Some people said pride made Satan to sin, then how did he have that idea when he was created a perfect being? You said Adam had perfect knowledge before he committed sin may be likewise Satan but in Adam’s case Satan made him do it so who made Satan do the wrong thing? Your idea that God sent Jesus to help mankind re-again the union is your personal view because it is based on your religious conviction so is not a general believe. However, even Jesus said he chose Judas which he called a devil. Then it means that God never knew that Satan would sin against him after he created Satan and he did not know Adam and Eve would eat the fruit in Eden. That is what your point means by saying God created a perfect being that sinned because had God known that a perfect being he created would sin then he would not had created the devil but he went ahead. In the case of Jesus at least he chose the devil to help him achieve his aim, like he claimed.

Secondly, like SwordofManticorE said, you mean not all mankind would re-again the knowledge and I trust you mean only Christians or those that believe in Jesus would re-again so I consider it again your religious view.

Lastly, the debate between Jack and SwordofManticorE confirmed the conflicting views in the bible which has ended up confusing people as each claim to be right. Funnily, some people have asked how would God inspire a book that would cause such confusion but the truth may be that Christians fail to understand that the various writers simply expressed their views on some issues just as Paul said in some of his letter, “As for me…” okay since God said the Kingdom of God is within us then it means we all have God’s kingdom. Moreover he said, we can’t say the kingdom is here or there. That same claim was re-enforced by “Your body is the temple of the living God.” Some mystic group has confirmed that such temple/heaven truly exists but it is the duty of man to find it within and not without while others hope for a Heaven somewhere. It is all based on peoples view but it is now clear that the various division among Christians started when the Catholic complied a conflicting works for a scripture but it was made for a day like an unborn child said.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Here again come the confusion as people pick the part the want and base their claim on it. Jesus said, many things about himself, son of man, son of God, my father sent, I do the will of him that sent me, I and my father are one, my father is greater than I, ye are Gods (all of us) so anyone can pick the one that one thinks is true and it is right because the scripture said.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

The confusion started because the bible is conflicting. God in the OT punished the Jews but in NT it was left for a last day yet later seen as a merciful God.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

Those scriptures are speaking about God giving the opportunity to anyone to be saved,but most will choose not to.

It is written: Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sands of the sea, only a remnant shall be saved. Rom 9 v 27


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

@David

Seek,and ye shall find.Those are the words of Christ.If everything was in black and white there would be no need to search for the truth.

Your in put is welcome,but it seem to me that you believe your self to have the answer to all questions.

There is a difference between Adam and Eve before and after their sins of disobedience . They lost certain knowledge between God and themselves as a consequence. To regain that knowledge require much endeavor. The gate is narrow that leads to life,and few there be that shall find it.....as Christ have stated. Matt 7 v 13,14


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jack “ seek and ye shall find” you think you are the only one that sought as you easily forgot that men had always sought for the truth and end up in diversity. Is there any Christian sect that does not claim to speak base on the truth just as you claim? Therefore, you are wrong to think only you know or sought the truth. SwordofManticorE confirmed it when he said he changed because he found the truth, same truth you did not accept. I did not claim to know the truth like you said because I can not know and ask questions instead what I know is that none of us is certain of what happened. All we say is base on assumption, just as the bible have claims of what Satan is so do other religious movement have their own claims so you can only assume to be right based on your believe and not that you are sure because you have no idea of what transpired in the beginning of the earth. A narrow gate has nothing to do with who tempted the devil instead it suggested that people have to overcome the temptations of the said devil to enter the gate.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

Jack believes in one of two possibilities. God can save all but won't or God wants to save all, but can't. Such a deity is not worthy of my worship or love, because such a deity is either a tyrant or incompitent.

My God can save all and will. Such a God is worthy of worship and love.

Jack's God gives the oppertunity to us all to be saved, sadly such a deity needs our permission to save us. God whose will is to save us all (1Tim2:3-4) is dependent on our free will to save us all making our will sovereign over God's will.

@David, I dont claim to know the truth, but I do know a wrong doctrine when I hear it. It just took me 46 years to know the wrong. With that, I dont claim to be right either. Your arrogance of stereo typing Jack and myself add more conflict to the discussion. Our discussion is not based on knowing the truth, it is based on what we both believe. Because no one knows the real truth.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

@swordofmanticorE5

If you don't claim to know the truth,how can you claim that what you believe is the truth? that means that you are more in confusion than you are knowledgeable my friend. I am sure of what i speak about and there is no" maybe" nor "I think so " in my belief.

Everyone will not follow Christ,and He is the only way to heaven.He is the only pathway to eternal life.

It is written that there are some things hard to be understood,which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,as they do also other scriptures,unto their own destruction.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

I disagree. If one claims to know the truth, I wouldn,t waste a second listening to him. It is the spirit of Love that leads me to believe what I believe. It has freed me from the bondage of fear, selfrighteuoseness, the institutions of a religion and most of all, This spirit of love has shown me who God truly is. Let all men be liars and God true. That sums it up for me.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

God is a SPIRIT,and they that worship Him must worship Him in SPIRIT and in truth.There are the spirituality of our existence that defines the deity of God. I know the truth in the spirituality of God ,for God is a spirit,as it is written.

As it is also written that, " my people are destroyed for the LACK of knowledge".

We grow as we know,and show as we go.

I don't carry the title of Apostle for show and make-believe. There are 2 kinds of spirituality that the world have yet to know about.

When you don't have or know the whole story you can only present a part of it which would not be sufficient for complete understanding.

Line must be upon line and precept must be upon precept as it is written,........ all one will get otherwise is a lot of misinterpretations.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

You make it too complicated Jack. The spirit of love is so simple a child can figure it out. The most common question most Christian children ask is "would God allow good people to go to hell if they haven't heard about Him"? Why is it that a child would ask that? Because it does not add up to what the spirit of Love truly is in them. The child does not, cannot believe that God could do such a thing. So in creeps the lie by someone who was appointed a teacher by someone who taught him the hell doctrine with the worldly authority to appoint false teachers. The confusion starts there when they brainwash the child with a false image of God.

So who appointed you an apostle Jack?

(2 Corinthians 10:18 NIV) "For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

(2 Corinthians 11:13-20 NIV) "{13} For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. {14} And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. {15} It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. ....{20} In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.". Such "apostles" do not preach the true gospel but one of their own manufacture tailored to their listeners desires.

(2 Corinthians 11:3-5 NIV) "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. {4} For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. {5} But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."

Out of love Jack, I sadly have to say that you are a false apostle and gain not trust or interest from me. You bring the false gosple that only some are saved, not all. Peace


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

SwordofManticorE , the question you asked about God’s ability or inability to save mankind is similar to what was mentioned in one of my hub on how Jesus would come to earth just to save mankind and fail. I did not say that you claim to know all, I only responded to Jack’s comment because he claim to be certain of things which we all know he can’t be certain except if he was there to witness the event. It means Jack only knew what he read from sources and understood it in his own way then he claim such knowledge is certain while others have their own view on it. therefore, unlike you that frankly said you believe it is so because you understood it that way, Jack said his is certain it is so and because of that I am very sure he is out of the contest. It is because of such certainty that humanity lack peace. This is because everyone claim to be certain while they only read what someone wrote and never witnessed things to be sure of that so in such situation one can only believe it to be true not be certain of it. Then about the debate between you and Jack, I used it to relate to the situation and differences among Christian sects because I know that has been the problem all this while. Therefore, I know that your position in this matter is based on your believe.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jack that you are an Apostle does not give you any authority on this matter and many others. This is because there are many other Apostles, priest, bishops, and Popes, and it is clear that not all of them share your view while they have various religious titles. It is simply means that you are an Apostle of those that share your views/teachings and not in position to determine anything and how it should be or how it was except in your own setting. SwordofManticorE, is a member of a different sect and his own Apostle/teacher, if he is not one taught him something different, yet he was taught by a man of Authority like you.

Jack, let us assume that you are right that Jesus is the only way to heaven or salvation. Then remember that the gospel has to be preached to all over the earth. In my journey with an unborn child, a lot of things were revealed so I just ask you a little question as you are the master that knows better. Please, how will those that dead before Christ/Jesus came to earth be judged or those that died in the recent generation but never heard the gospel? Do you thing that a God which people claim to be unchanging will change at a point and what pleased him earlier will no longer please him? Thanks, my friend.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

@david

His spiritual knowledge to my spirit is my authority from Him and that concerns all subjects of life in many categories herein.

Everyone will have give account to God for who they are or claim to be. One can call themselves whatever they will.But It is time for show and tell in this world so it is what you show above what you say that present who you are.

Words only set the stage.....it is the application that present the outcome.

My spirit was call by the Almighty as an Apostle to FULFILL the words of the Angel to the Prophet Daniel of Daniel 12 v 4 to bring forth the INCREASE OF SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE to the spirits of humankind concerning education of the UNSEEN........THE UNKNOWN....and the HIDDEN spirituality of our existence.

And to prophesy concerning the time span and events of of all 7 of the 7 hidden seals of Revelations which until now have not been reveal according to the increase of spiritual knowledge of Daniel 12 v 4.

You can put on a doctors suit but it don't mean that you are a doctor.

We are judge spiritually by God as his spirits of creation in that He created us. Life exist before Adam and Eve in a spiritual existence call Celestial bodies known as Angels.

There are knowledge,intellect, personality,communication,and activity beyond science and technology.

What is not seen is more powerful than what is seen.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Even great men like Newton, Albert Einstein, and Leonardo de Vinci among others knew that the unseen is greater than the seen and I know same so that is why I do not agree with your claims. You came to fulfill prophecy just as I came for a purpose. Do you know those that have the keys to David? Therefore you do not know me and your spiritual insight is yours and yours alone to do what you have to do while others do theirs I do not welcome your claim because I feel disappoint when people claim to be true and others are false (it is a common claim just as others think you are fake). Those that know do not talk but wait for time to prove them right. There are many other Spiritual men that share different views from yours and that does not make them wrong for there are hierarchies of spiritual powers and your growth/path may be different from theirs. All you have to do is to remain on your path if you think you are right and judge no man so you won’t be judged. Once, again you are only an Apostle in your sect and nothing more so you can’t claim to be overall know-er of all spiritual truths.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

You have a right to believe anything that you will my friend.You sound like you are not sure of your own belief. So you think everyone else is the same. The men that you name speak common knowledge, i speak uncommon knowledge.They know little or none about the 2 definitions of our spiritual existence. You can not prove that i don't know what i am talking about. Spirituality concerns all of humanity in a Celestial way of existence,and that includes you .The thing of it is....i know and you don't. I can prove everything that i say.

The knowledge in part is found in 1Cor 15 v 40,44


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

My friend, your comment already proved that you do not know anything you claim. This is because you claim to be certain of what you know and you think others don't know spiritual truth so you are completely wrong and your comment is already a prove. You don't me and I asked you questions (check past comments) which you could not answer. You only know your personal spiritual path and when spiritual is involved and you claim to be right while others are wrong means you know nothing about real spiritual. This is not bible quotation because there are spiritual men and women that do not use your bible. Once again, you sound like a learner still feeding on milk but you may grow if your blindness of think you know do not hinder. One day you shall know me.


Apostle Jack profile image

Apostle Jack 4 years ago from Atlanta Ga

I don't think... i know, my friend, i know that i know that the world don't know about our Celestial spiritual body. Until now it was not meant to be reveal.

I don't speak from theories,maybe's,and i think so kind of speech, but from experience,trials and error and a rue witness for the Almighty.

He have allowed my spirit to behold His total spiritual existence as an increase of knowledge to the spirits of humankind. Daniel 12 v 4 which is a prophecy now being fulfill.

Everyone will have to give account for themselves.Everything that we do and say in this world will be challenged.

One must be SURE of the steps that they take.

One should not speak on what he/she are not sure about.

I speak from God to world population concerning this spiritual increase of knowledge. It was given to my spirit to give to the world as his messenger and Apostle of the spirituality of the Christian faith.

World knowledge is a circle of matter,DNA,atoms,cells,ions and materialism. The knowledge of the spirits is a supernatural definition of an unseen force. It is time to go beyond science to divine intervention to unveil the other side.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

You know that you while others know that they know so to such people "you think you know" because what you know is not in line with what others know that is why it becomes a matter of who is right or wrong. You may know your God while they know their God, that is what it means if people get different message from God. Therefore, I am not saying you do not know but I say if you claim only you know then it means you do not know. This is because I have worked with men of various spiritual backgrounds from various religions and mystic groups so I know better when it comes to spiritual differences. That is why an unborn Child exclaimed that "even those in the mysteries do not know the mysteries hidden in the mysteries." Spiritual truth/matters are mysteries to others because it is not a common knowledge available to all. Since you are a servant of God then the first place you have to start is to ask your God about me because he should know me, if he is a God. Thank you my friend. You have the right to do what God called you for and for those he sent you to.


Jason 4 years ago

GUEST YOU STATED THE FOLLOWING :@Jason, once again you bring up very intriguing ideas! Sounds eerily like the fellow in Men in Black III. Sadly, it still remains conjecture on your part (albeit a very entertaining one). Note two things:

1. God is known traditionally to exist outside the confines of time and space. These are human constructs that define reality for man. Not so for God. You are forcing him into this framework by insisting on your "conditional omnipotence" with different futures (TIMElines).

RESPONSE: Glad to carry on the correspondence , Guest.

That conception of God is NOT the sort of "tradition" with unanimous acceptance with Christianity, let alone Judaism: the latter whose theologians have often been yet more opposed to the notion that God is completely timeless/ does not experience time . Augustine of Hippo was largely responsible for spreading the doctrine that alleges that God is timeless, as did Boethus, and a number of Calvinist thinkers . Nowhere , however does the Bible state that time and space are constructs of man . Nowhere does the Bible state God is outside of Space and Time ,either . Furthermore, a number of Christian theologians and Christian philosophers going back quite a ways historically have proposed that God *does* indeed mentally experience time . Consider , Molina , as one example, among others , who proposed that God had a middle knowledge of the contingent events that occur within time --events that were contingent and not necessary, a middle knowledge that was epistemically different from the knowledge He has of necessary sorts of items .

God , being a necessary agent , and NOT a contingent one , has an essence which is timeless, however, to claim that God does not experience time, in terms of God's mental activity, is NOT anywhere explicitly attested to in the Bible . The Bible does NOT , moreover, state that God created Time, nor that Time had a beginning , instead it states in Genesis I verse I , ' In the beginning , God created the heavens and the earth ' .

Time as a category of either change or continuance of process (be those processes involve purely mental iterations and observations , or be they external events which occur in some sort of area ) is an a priori concept . It is NOT a construct of man .

Man merely expresses the concept of Time ; man does *not* invent the concept , for the concept is an a priori categorical entity . Likewise Space also (which is a category of extention of figures that can be subject to geometic diagramming and direction of where the figures point ) is also a pre-existent category, and , hence, an apriori concept. Space is NOT a construct of man. The concept of space pre-exists also , the mind of man has NOT invented the concept of Space. Humans only invent the cosmetic forms of the written signifiers and the spoken tokens of the words to refer to units of space . The types of spatial figures , and types of possible spatial arrangements pre-exist and are NO invented by man. Humans (and other conscious creatures) only invent the cosmetic *tokens* so as to how to write or speak about such types , they do NOT invent the conceptual types themselves .

To claim that God does NOT experience time, based on the misleading Augustian tradition within *some* theological factions within Christianity , is a notion that is at odds with several Bible verses which indicates that God does mentally experience time in some sense , and which uses time-based terms to describe God . Aside from the book of Daniel which applies the term 'Ancient Of Days' to God (a phrase that would be not applicable to God, *if* the Augustian notion of God as being outside of any experience of time were correct, for in such a case God would be neither young , nor old and , hence, the adjective 'ancient' would not apply ), apart from that ... there are a number of other scriptures that do indicate that God *does* mentally experience time. One of the most telling ones is Genesis chapter 2 verse 2 which refers to God experiencing time even independent of interactions with humans --lest some should protest with the flimsy claim that such is merely a description of how humans perceived God .

In Genesis 2 : (King James Version), the following statement is presented :

'And on the seventh day God ended the work that he had made , and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had nade ' .

Notice the phrase, 'and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had made ' .

Granted, if we accept that the premise that Genesis 2:2 presents a veridical claim about God , it is likely that the resting that God did was NOT a physical process, and the word 'rested' is metaphorical , rather than literal. Nonetheless, even given a metaphorical interpretation of the word 'rested' (or the original Hebrew term in the Hebrew manuscripts of Genesis 2 : ) the sentence construction of Genesis 2:2 would still indicate that God experienced some sort of change in conscious experience / change in the mental activity that He enacts during that period of time called 'the seventh day'

.The sentence construction of Genesis 2 verse 2 would indicate that Genesis 2 :2 presented the proposition that God experienced some sort of change in the mental activity which He enacts, that He experienced something *new * *while that particular unit of time --that particular unit in a series of units of time-- had occured* ...that the scripture verse indicates the proposition that some condition, pertaining to the arrangement of mental activity that God experiences , had happened , that is signified in English translations by the word 'rested', which was an experience *different from* what God had experienced in the days of creation, those other days which had earlier happened during the portion of the week spanning from the first day to the sixth day, as mentioned in Genesis .

[The Jewish theologian Abraham Heschel , in the book he wrote on the Sabbath , presents some interesting thoughts in regard to that in the book he wrote regarding the singificance of the Sabbath in the Bible .]

For someone of an evangelical/fundamentalist outlook of those who believe in an inerrancy of every verse of the Bible, there is a serious problem posed for the Augustian doctrine that claims that God does not experience time of any sort / that God's mind is completely outside of space and time , posed by Genesis 2 :2 (as well as numerous other Bible verses) . For those NON-fundamentalist Christians who do not profess innerrancy of every verse of the Bible , there is not the intractable problem posed by verses such as Genesis 2 verse 2 (*if* someone from a non-fundamentalist background were to propose that God does not mentally experience Time --or Space) . However, someone who maintains the fundamentalist/evangelical outlook that proposes that God does not experience Time or Space AND who also maintains the infalliability of every verse of the Bible , has painted themselves into a corner , for there is the problem of how to explain what references to terms which indicate a transition from one condition to another can be predicated of God , which are found in scriptures such as Genesis 2: 2 , can possibly be reconciled with the doctrine they have adopted from thinkers like Augustine that claim that God does NOT experience Time . To state that the use of the term 'rested ' is metaphorical does not reconcile the claim that God does not experience time with the references to words that are used to refer to temporal processes / conditions that involve change or transition , for there is still the problem as to specifically what the metaphor stands for ...which is to say, whether the condition ascribed to God, that is symbolized by the metaphor of 'resting' is a condition that has a beginning that comes to a stop after so many intervals ?

It would be doublespeak and doublethink to claim that a condition that God experiences , which begins at one point and then after a number of intervals goes by then comes to an end , would somehow be a process that is not a process of time .


Guest 4 years ago

Dear Jason,

Genesis 1 : 1 will be the verse you're looking for. It explicitly says: In the beginning, God... This beginning as recorded in the Hebrew, refers to the beginning of EVERYTHING including time as we know it. It means that if we go backwards in time to the point at which time can be said not to have existed, we will still find a "necessary being" - God right there. This therefore establishes God as a being that exists outside time. Subsequently, "God created the heavens and the earth." this general statement refers to all of matter (and antimatter) as we know it. If God existed before all this and created it, then it follows that he exists in a realm beyond time and space; space being a continuum of time with matter.

My use of the term human constructs should not lead you to think I meant these thing were created by man but I mean that they define man's existence in this limited 3 dimensional plane and we should not presume to box God into these parameters.

As for resting on the seventh day, God had already created and established the parameters for time from the very first day of creation. In essence he created the day as a sum of the "evening and morning" so it therefore follows he will be using these terms to define reality to man. There is no cognitive dissonance here if you recall that the scriptures though inspired are written by man for man and as such, must have human markers to help us identify with what is written.

Glad I bookmarked this page so I can keep the conversation going. Hope to hear from you.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Jason and My Guest, I am enjoying your debate and it sound more complicated in that time and space and its non-existent is what some people never really thought of. I recall the black hole theory in which time and space is said to be lost. However, for God to make future plan and know how long he wants things to happen may suggest that he was aware of time or maybe the writers of the scriptures if not God, himself. For instance, the number of years the Israelite spent in other lands where said to had been planned among other events. Well, I think it is better I allow both of you sort it out because your arguments seem to have bases which other readers can learn from.


Guest 4 years ago

Thank you David. You see, that God predetermines events chronologically does not mean he is bound by time. It is just the way we can understand it as we are finite creatures still bound by time and not omniscient. A crude analogy here would be seeing time as a ruler that has a beginning and an end, God as the person holding this ruler who can see it comprehensively along its whole length from beginning to end, and then us mortals as tiny ants that run along the length of the ruler from one centimeter to the other. We are bound by our limited view and understanding but an omniscient being must have a comprehensive view of all events: past, present and future.

Secondly, why I used the phrase "time is a human construct" is because we find it difficult to imagine a world without time and chronological progression. Our brains and minds are wired to see time as a fundamental part of human existence- which it is. But God is a spirit. Before him, all things ARE. That is why he is I AM THAT I AM: constantly in the present tense, no past or future with him. This is omniscience.

Finally, think about this: A god who is bound by time means there was a time he didn't exist. Such a god is not almighty or eternal. In this scenario, time is almighty and eternal because it has always existed even before that god. The only explanation that resonates with the scriptures is that God has always been, eternally exisiting, and along the way, he decided to create this "timeline" as a construct to define existence and reality for man in our three dimensional world.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 4 years ago Author

Well, I can agree that man invented time just like most other things. However, it becomes difficult to determine or know if God is working with us in terms of our time which we created/invented or he works not minding our time. But if God can say what will happen in a specific point in our time and we get that exact time, I wonder how it can to be. God being a spirit may not mean that spirits do not go by time.


Anonymous. 2 years ago

I already know god put the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden because he was redesigning the fall.


davidkaluge profile image

davidkaluge 2 years ago Author

You mean he did it on purpose


ken 2 years ago

I wonder why people use what happened in the book of Revelation to claim how the Satan fell from the beginning.

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