Why Do Unbelievers Always Want Proof?

The Thinker
The Thinker | Source

A Conversation With A Believer

Believer: Hi, I would like to tell you about my faith.

Unbeliever: I'm sorry, I don't believe in God.

Believer: Dear God, please help this Unbeliever believe in you.

Unbeliever: I see you believe in prayer.

Believer: Yes, of course. Prayer is the way for us to talk to God.

Unbeliever: And God talks back?

Believer: Yes, he does.

Unbeliever: I don't understand. If you pray and God talks back, and it is the same God each time for everybody in the world, then why is there so many different Gods and belief systems in the world? If the same God talks back, won't the world be slowly moving towards one God and one belief system? Maybe you guys aren't praying, right?

Believer: God talks back when you pray, but only when you really listen. Sometimes people are too troubled by their own problems and they don't really listen.

Unbeliever: Do you really listen?

Believer: Yes, I do!

Unbeliever: So, your message is the one true message?

Believer: Of course.

Unbeliever: But just last week, there was another Believer from another belief system that talked to me. I asked him the same questions and he gave me the same answers, and assured me that his message was the one true message. Who should I believe?

___________________________________________________________

The preceding is not meant to put down Believers in any way. Believers really believe in their message and must be admired for their devotion and single minded purpose.

However, Unbelievers do face an uphill task, something which Believers, in their zest, fail to fully appreciate.


Different Religions

There are 19 major religions in the world, which can be sub divided into 270 large religious groups. And those groups can be further divided into many thousands of smaller groups.

As an example, the Christian faith can be divided into about 8 different branches, But within the branches, there are over 34,000 different Christian organizations worldwide.

In the light of this, it is very fair for an Unbeliever to ask "What makes your message The Message?" of a Believer.


The Power Of Prayer

If God does speak through prayers, then the world should be slowly converging into the one true religion. However, the diversity and number of religious groups worldwide does not seem support this.


Conclusion

Unbelievers are looking for the truth too. But sometimes the truth may lie not in the destination but in the journey itself.


Resources:

Religious Tolerance - Site about all the religions in the world.

The Intention Experiment - Science is discovering that there is another "dimension" to our physical world, something which the mystics, healers, mediums, and psychics have known all along.

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Comments 98 comments

aka-dj profile image

aka-dj 7 years ago from Australia

You are right. Overzealous believers can hinder, more than help,sometimes. It takes love and wisdom to help others on that journey.

I would add one thing though, God has promised to reveal Himself to ANYONE, wh is truly seeking Him. You and I may not know who they are, but He does, because He knows the thoughts and the intents of the heart.:)

Thank you for writing this.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

I don't know if I'm ready to meet him, and if I ever will be. But I have grown more spiritual over the years, not more religious but more spiritual, while in the past, I would not even have known the difference.

Thanks for stopping by. :)


thevoice profile image

thevoice 7 years ago from carthage ill

great question good request well done mike


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Thanks! :)


thevoice profile image

thevoice 7 years ago from carthage ill

I found god Jesus beyond religions its true peace grwoth in wisdom of life thanks for comment


MindField profile image

MindField 7 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Wanderer, I really enjoyed my first of your hubs and look forward to reading many more. I'm with you on the "give me spiritual, keep the religion" philosophy.

It's ironic beyond measure to me that Fundamentalist Christians are always talking about their 'personal relationship' with Jesus but are so tied up in a thousand doctrinal knots, which they feel hellbent to enforce on everyone else, that anything 'personal' is met with suspicion, horror, and, too often, hatred.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

I do agree with you. They probably don't realize it but when they are talking at you, instead of to you, their message tends to fall on deaf ears. The listener would be trying to find a way to "escape". :) If they will just listen and really engage in a conversation, I'm sure that both parties would be the better for it.


quicksand profile image

quicksand 7 years ago

Yes, that true.


needful things profile image

needful things 7 years ago from Poland

Unbelievers need proof that they are unbelievers... such is the nature of humanity.


Elena. profile image

Elena. 7 years ago from Madrid

Hello wandererh. Fine proposition, I just fail to agree with your conclusion. Unbelievers may, or may not, be seeking the truth. In general, and entirely in my opinion only, some unbelievers think that there is no such thing as "The Truth", hence why seek it?


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Needful things - Lol.  Unbelievers need proof because they are unbelievers.  If they are unbelievers but don't need proof, then they are believers and not unbelievers.  I hope that makes sense.  :)


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Elena - My opinion only but I think that if you are not a nilihist, then you are looking for "The Truth". That truth can be something as simple as a cause that you devote your life to, or as profound as the meaning of life. So long as it is something that is bigger that you are, then it is your truth.

It's 3.30am in the morning so I hope that makes sense. :)

Anyway, were you referring to "the Truth" more in the religious sense?


Elena. profile image

Elena. 7 years ago from Madrid

Hi wandererh -- I like the way you make "The Truth" be something personal :-) Personally, then, I don't seek The Truth, and I don't think, either, that anything that's bigger that I am, like the universe, is my truth. I guess you're right, though, I do probably have a truth of mine, which is that I don't think there is a Truth :-)

Thanks for your honest reply, it did make perfect sense!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

There you go. Your truth is that there is no truth. :)

Really gotta sleep now. Nite!


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I almost replied to this request myself, but I just don't have the energy to do it right now and I'm considering writing an entire book on the subject anyway.

I am a believer, specifically a Christian (non-denominational).

However, I spent a good sixteen years as a pagan (simply another spiritual path, really). I would encounter Christians on every street corner it seemed, always preaching, always shoving a Bible into the hands of the "unbeliever" or the "unsaved."

They mean well. They really do. But the fact is that this kind of behavior is far more likely to chase the unbeliever away than to attract them to the religion in question.

I always think that the key to good communication is to express oneself in terms of what "I believe" and what "I think" or what "I feel" about a given subject. This is a perfect example of how that works.

"I believe that Christ is the one true path to salvation" is a true statement. "Christ is the one true path to salvation" *might not be*.

Good hub!


MindField profile image

MindField 7 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Wanderer: First, as an important aside, I just want to thank you for your fan mail. You couldn't have honored me more by your comment.

Second, you and Everyday Miracles [great name, by the way!], coming from different points on the theological/spiritual map, are simpatico in your understanding of how one should be approached and how one wants to be approached. I strongly concur with you both.

If those who feel obliged to proclaim their religious beliefs would come at it from a humble sharing-a-gift posture instead of attempting to bowl us over with the ultimate 'rightness' of their position, they might find themselves with more converts. I will never be one of them until that day self-identified 'Christians' jettison condemnation and brimstone and replace them with an all-embracing kindness and love.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - You say that you are a Christian. And yet you admit that the statement "Christ is the one true path to salvation" might not be true. That says a lot about a person. It tells me that you have considered other options and rejected them. Actually, it makes what you have to say that much more powerful.

And "I believe that Christ is the one true path to salvation" opens up the communication channels. I definitely will not run away from that and will sit down and have a nice discussion with you. And I think we'd both learn something.

But "Christ is the one true path to salvation" essentially means "I talk, you listen" I have talked to Christians like that. I effectively shut down and find a way to "escape" at the earliest opportunity.

Thanks for droppng by!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Minefield - I'm not one for small talk, I like to get to the heart of the matter. Hence the comment. :)

I am honored to have among my friends Christians are measured in their approach. They are unshakeable in their faith but not unquestioning. They will openly admit that they don't have all the answers and have certain doubts themselves. They speak softly and they listen to what you have to say.

To me, they are the true believers.

Thanks for dropping by. :)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Yes, I agree with exactly what you say. Like I said, I've spent years being on the "unbelieving" side of the same equation. It feels threatening, doesn't it? It doesn't open the lines for intelligent discourse and it makes the unbeliever feel shut down and disprespected.

Nobody is going to want to listen to that!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Yep, they just talk at you rather than to you. Anyway, I would love to know how an unbeliever became a believer, especially since you have explored alternative paths. Are you serious on writing the book? You have one sale right here. :)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I'm definitely serious about it! I'm working on creating an outline at the moment and I have two people checking over it for me. One is my husband, who knows quite a bit about the path that I took to get to the place that I am right now.

Unfortunately it's not as cut and dried as one would hope when putting something into book form!


MindField profile image

MindField 7 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Wanderer: I have met, worked with, and loved Christians - many of them - who are good, kind, decent, wonderful people. I meant to speak only of those who seem to enjoy believing that people who don't think exactly as they do are bound for hell. Just wanted to clear up any misconceptions I may have created. Thanks for giving us a lively discussion!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - I would definitely think so, a book is a big project. Anyway, best of luck to you and maybe you can post bits and pieces of it on hubpages. :)

MindField - I know exactly what you mean. Have a nice weekend. :)


powerspike profile image

powerspike 7 years ago from Sydney, Australia

Great Hub, and i think you hit the nail on the head, that the truth lies in the journey.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

If we feel that we know THE answer, the absolute answer, the very best answer that there ever will be, aren't we being arrogant?

Just my 2 cents. :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Wow! What a dialogue. The believing Christian, the believing Jew, the believing Muslim, and other believers in the major faiths will more than likely see all this as--mind you--not seeking, but skirting the truth. If I do not totally believe that what I believe, religiously speaking, is The Truth, why am I bothering? Of course Jesus is the only way! Why, certainly, the Torah contains all we need to know of YHWH. And, without doubt, the Prophet Muhammad was the last and greatest of Allah's prophets.

Only the unbeliever questions. Thank God!


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I don't know that that is true, Richard... I have my moments when I question, but I look for answers in the Bible. I also understand that others see truth differently. Personally, I believe that only those who believe that Christ was the Messiah are saved. There's more, but I won't get into it.

The crux of the matter here though is that I feel that it is unfair to make an assumption about another individual's personal experiences with faith and spirituality and I also feel that there are particular ways to go about expressing your viewpoints. Souls may be won or lost in the way that a believer treats an unbeliever. I think we need to possess the proper communication skills if we are going to make any kind of headway whatsoever.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

RichardSpeaks - There are pitfalls of unquestioning belief and I do wonder if that is required of believers. We were created (or evovled) with a questioning mind, and I can't believe that our Creator demands that we obey without question - he might as well have created a planet of robots. :)

Were you implying something with the statement, "Only the unbeliever questions. Thank God!"? Just wondering. :)


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - You seem to be able to view things from many different perspectives. I would really love to find out what made you choose your present path.

Your book finished yet? :)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

As fast as I write, you'd think so, wouldn't you?


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Well, you sorta remind me of "Flight of the bumblebee". :)


mayhmong profile image

mayhmong 7 years ago from North Carolina

That was a great response to a nonbeliever. It is by faith we walk and listen to that really keeps us going strong.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Do you all believe what you're writing...or could you be wrong? And if you, the believer, could be wrong, then why not try something else?

Believe me, the 'true' Christian or Muslim may question a particular tenet, but not the faith itself.

You are right. We are indeed a questioning species. That's why rigid religions are rigid--to keep that natural tendency in check.

One final thing: An East Indian saying goes that God gave humans Truth; the devil said, "Let's organize it and call it religion."


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

mayhmong - maybe that's what it's all about - to walk by and listen to what keep us strong. The truth may be different for each of us and maybe that's the way it was meant to be. :)


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

RichardSpeaks - I attended Easter service last Sunday at the invitation of a friend. As a newcomer, I filled in a form that asked me if I believed in God. There were 2 options: yes or no. At some points in my life, I would have said that I do believe in God. At some other time, I would have said that I'm an atheist. But this time, I filled in "I don't know". And I think that is the truest reflection of where I'm at right now.

Although, I might add, it is more about whether I believe in God in the form that we know him today, and not so much whether I believe in his existence. And that does relate a little to your final comment. :)


MindField profile image

MindField 7 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Wanderer: You and I are on the same wavelength - and the more you write about your own journey, the more it appears that we approach this issue in a very synchronous fashion. I'm also reminded of something one of my college professors in the English Department said: Most communication is miscommunication. The title of the hub has some people, I believe, assuming that you're coming from the orthodox religious direction (until they get to your comments).

I can't quite determine which way RichardSpeaks leans - I would have said to the less doctrinaire side but could be reading him wrong. Everyday Miracles makes it plain where her beliefs lie (and thanks for that, EM!).

I've always wished I could know at what point on the continuum a person falls before launching into a whole host of subjects that often land me in trouble with both feet in my mouth!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

That's true. Sounds like a rant from a Believer. :) Actually this hub was an answer to a request and I never expected it to become so "popular".

I think so too. He brings up organised religion and seems to "encourage" questions. I think he has the same leanings as Everyday Miracles.

Don't worry about that with me. I'm open to anything and everything you can throw at me. :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

I am a New Thought minister. As such, I am not a preacher; rather, I am a suggester. And you're right. My job is to encourage questions. I believe it was either Aristotle or Socrates that said, in essence, to hear those who seek truth and run from those who say they've found it. I like your hub. It encourages questions. That's why I said earlier that the true believer doesn't question. Only those who suspect that the real truth, if there is such a thing, lies in the questions.

I am a 'spiritual atheist.' I do not accept the dogmas that are proclaimed about the gods of the books. But I do believe the universe is deliberate. Beyond that, I do not know or even pretend to know.


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Richard, if I may...

I personally am of the belief that if one never questions, they can never truly believe. We can be rough on one another in how we "define" belief and "true believer" and we can be downright hurtful to one another in the process. During my years as a pagan, I used to say that I didn't care what you believed as long as you believed.

My mind has changed on the matter, as I am a Christian now. I have a hard time handling things from my spiritual past. I awakened so suddenly (and awkwardly) to a new dawn in my spiritual life that I often cannot understand how others don't see what I see (and I think that this might be the nature of a believer).

Nevertheless, I question. I personally choose to believe that we are each (as Christians) led in different directions by the Holy Spirit. It's easier to avoid arguments with this particular belief, and I have grown tired of being run down (by other Christians). Questioning is important, but it is key to emphasize respect for the beliefs of others. You might just learn something!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

RichardSpeaks - I googled New Thought and it looks interesting.  And your hub is a nice introduction.  Looking forward to hearing more.  :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

To Everyday Miracles (and everyone, of course):

I can tell you're a great soul. Your pagan history has prepared you well for a Christian walk that appears far less judgemental and condemning than many who claim the title. My background prior to coming into the New Thought movement (more than 27 years ago) was that of extreme fundamentalist Christian. As you may know, that path is absolute. If you question, you're being led astray.

Now, within even the fundamentalist circles there are incredibly loving people who accept the idea that each is free to believe as he/she chooses. The bottom line, however, is that there is an Ultimate Truth, that Jesus is the resurrection and life. If you do not believe that one principle, above any others, you are to be confined in an eternal hell.

After thinking and questioning, it wasn't hard to walk away from that path. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I would be willing to bet that the more you question, the more likely it is that the idea of salvation from an eternal damnation will become more and more abhorrent to you. And once you lose the belief in that damnation, calling yourself a Christian will itself be called into question by your peers.

But what do I know?


confussed 7 years ago

? can someone explaine to me,why in the bible god created adam and eve cain killed able and banished him.So where did cain find his wife to have children,? think abt it Adam-Eve-Cain-Able 3 people in the whole world hmmm. Also the big flood tht destroyed the world and only Noha and his family left,so we came frm them.Nothing like keeping it in the family(insese)bad.


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Richard,

I have been through the experience of questioning damnation, and ultimately, that questioning led me to where I am. My beliefs are a bit "different" than some Christians, but they are, at least in my mind, biblically supported. I believe that we will all one day be judged based on our faith and our works. In essence, based on the choices we have made.

I look at God as a Father, and I can see that there might be a point at which I would be forced to cut one of my children loose from the apron strings entirely. A child who had chosen a path that I cannot, ultimately, support (unrepentant drug use, disregard for human life, etc). Of course I have to emphasize *might* because I can't honestly see myself doing that.

On the other hand, I can see how "tough love" can work with a child. I can see how a child who knows that they are going to be cut off from the family if they do A or B might choose not to do A or B. And if that is a loving behavior from a human parent, how much more capable is God of giving us those choices?

Ultimately I am not going to take the risk. If my salvation from eternal hellfire is dependent upon my belief that Christ died to save me from my sins, great! Because that's what I believe. I don't have to worry about it. I hope that makes sense. I should add that the belief is genuine.

confussed,

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Cain and Abel were the only progeny of Adam and Eve. I am sure that there were other children who were suitable as a bride for Cain. In the early days of the Old Testament, incest was allowed because there was such a small population. The laws of God are mostly based on health and safety concerns and there wouldn't have been health implications of incest that early on.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Thanks for answering confussed's question, I would have been stumped. :)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I could go into more detail about the incest thing but it's kind of a toughie. I would need to do some research and then I might as well write a hub about it.

It's a good and valid question though, and I've heard the question about Cain being answered in a variety of ways, most of which lean towards "my" version of intelligent design, which is essentially a combination of evolution and creationism. It's essentially like saying that there were more than one Adam and Eve throughout the world and that Cain was able to find a "cousin."


confussed 7 years ago

Well thank's people,I will have to continue my journey to seek more knowledge,about the big Book as I was raised as a catholic and now grow up I have a lot of ? and can not decide wht religion to belong to,If anyone of you have a site or info for me to look at I would really be greatful,again thnk's lost and confussed. MIKE


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

confussed - Welcome to The Journey. May it be as fulfilling, fun and interesting as mine is. :)


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - Yay, I inspired another hub. Actually it was confussed but since this is my hub, I guess I could take a little credit. :) It sounds real interesting - a combination of evolution and creationism. Looking forward to it.


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Well now I have to write it! I haven't considered this topic for quite some time so give me a while and if I forget, remind me. I find it easier not to argue with my husband about issues regarding creationism vs. evolution!


countrywomen profile image

countrywomen 7 years ago from Washington, USA

Wandererh- Wonderful approach. I have seen so many people here at hub pages using that word "believer" synonymously with believing in Jesus Christ. As if the rest of the folks who happen to believe in anything(anybody) else is an "unbeliever". Why can't people just say I believe in Jesus Christ instead of saying us "believers" have to endure this or that. Thumbs up for a thought provoking hub.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - I think the creationists are being too defensive about creation. Even if we really did evolve, it really doesn't disprove the existence of God.

I know that the theory of evolution has some problems in it but it is the only theory science has. And I also can't believe that God snapped his fingers and everything was created, which is the gist of what it says in genesis.

My favorite "theory" is that God created the world at the time of the big bang. He make sure that the physical laws were such that if the conditions were right, given enough time, life such as us will happen.

Creation and evolution at the same time! :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Everyday Miracles:

If you had a child that was involved in drugs, crime, or anything socially degrading, then yes, it may be possible and even necessary to let that child stand or fall on its own merits. It would be tough, to be sure, but perhaps not even your call.

However, if you brought a baby into the world, injected it with drugs, knowing that it would have to follow a certain path, laid out that path, directed that child in every way, caused it to act, think, and behave in particular ways, you would have no right to then condemn that child for being as it is. You would be at fault.

According to everything I know about Christianity, God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. All knowing, everywhere present, all power. That means nothing can happen without the permission of the creator. According to that way of thinking, there is no true free will. Every breath, every hair, every step are counted and known. Even Satan himself is the pawn of God. (Read the story of Job.)

Free will simply means that nothing in your life is inevitable. And that means it is not and cannot be known in advance. Otherwise it's predestination. Can't have both.

I believe in free will. The so-called god of the Bible does not know what my next move will be, or my next thought, or my next idea. And since that it so, the god is not omniscient. The god is not moving my body; I am. Therefore, the god is not omnipotent. And the god is not living in my heart. The god is not omnipresent.

Believing in a god or a doctrine that could actually allow for the eternal punishment of more than 90% of its human creation still puzzles me. You mention good works. Even the Muslim, the Buddhist, and the Jew do good works. They are not bad people. They simply believe differently that you do. And, according to St. Paul, for that alone, they must burn.

Shakey ground, don't you think?

(By the way, I read your new hub. Good stuff. I know you are sincere and I deeply respect you for your choices. Just know that as a former fundie, I love to throw curves to you believers. Many blessings to you.)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Richard, I understand, and will respond when I have a bit more energy... I woke up to several incredibly stressful events and am currently feeling as though my head is about to come off my shoulders trying to figure out keywords for my forum! Ugh!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

countrywomen - Thanks! :)

When I wrote this hub, I purposely didn't mention any religion. A believer is a believer, whether Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhism or others. When talking to people of the same faith, I think it's alright to refer to everybody else as unbelievers. But when you have people of different religions coming together, only atheists should be called unbelievers.


jjrubio 7 years ago

This is interesting and is a good argument one could make about any religion. However, it shouldn't matter if they need proof, as long as you can provide the proof is what matters. I do not beleive anything I just "HEAR" I have to see it in the bible. there are too many people with too many of their own opinions in many religions I have found that many religions are diluted. They do not practice or preach what is right.

I also beleive there is another realm for the spirits that is coinciding on top of our world. But I don't think its good spirits. As the bible states that the Devil and his demons were hurled to the earth. 

Anyhow- GOOD HUB!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Yes, I do agree that one has to seek his own truth, and question if need be, rather than just listen and follow blindly.

Thanks for dropping by. :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Imagine this: a world is created, innocent creatures are put there. Then, the creator sends all the bad angels to that world. The innocents are given the opportunity to choose free will (the knowledge of good and evil) over animal innocence. They are told, in their innocence, not to wake up by "eating the fruit." The bad angel tells them the truth. If you eat from the tree, you'll wake up and be like God. They eat, wake up, and are like God. Even God admits it. Sounds odd.

God places the innocents in a strange position. Remember, until they ate from the tree, they did not know good from evil. Only after eating were their eyes opened. They ate in complete innocence.

The one who set the whole thing up is the true bad guy. He was in complete control. So, we need to quit blaming the creature for the actions of the creator. Even the bad angels were God's creations.

The doctrine of original sin is the original lie.


jjrubio 7 years ago

Sounds like you are an evil person for saying such a remark...ever heard of the unforgiveable sin? I am glad I am not in your shoes.

You should never call GOD a bad guy. and Sorry to tell you that they WERE NOT LIKE GOD...God placed boundaries and they had free will and chose to disobey. He could have destroyed Adam and Eve and even Satan for that matter but he didn't. Why? Because the Angels saw what had taken place and that could have left doubts in their minds. Also yes, God created the angels and 1/3 of the angels turned bad and joined satan. Again "free will" at least God doesn't make us like robots. So God is letting this all play out. The whole problem is MAN CANNOT DIRECT HIS STEP and Satan wants everyone to turn against GOD and be destroyed along with him at the END. He is selfish and doesn't want to see Righteousness. Again, I am glad not to be in your shoes!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

jjrubio - Intelligent discourse is encouraged here. You are free to say anything you want here, but please refrain from name calling. People of many faiths may be reading this and they do not share your beliefs. Please show them some respect.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Thanks, Wandererh.

It's OK for folks to make up their own interpretations of scripture. However, most people who voice emotional opinions have never really studied their own holy books. All one has to do is read Genesis Chapter 3 very closely to discover the not so hidden messages. God did say that the man had become god-like. He kicked the couple out of the garden, not so much for disobedience, but to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life, and thus living forever. They would have become rivals rather than puppets if they were both aware and immortal. When read in its deepest sense, that act was an act of self-protection. One might even say it was an act of fear. If you were the highest power, wouldn't you do the same? Ask any king, queen, or other potentate.

Simply read it for yourself. It is there, plain, open, available. That is, if you are willing to see it, receive it, and perhaps change your thinking. It's not my call. All I do is point out the obvious.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

RichardSpeaks - Are you saying that the Bible is not the word of God?


jjrubio 7 years ago

I have news for you Mr Ex- Holy Roller...I have read the Bible and I am aware of things you probably don't even know. For your information, Holy Rollers tend to be possessed by Demons, not the Holy Spirit. If you knew anything you would have figured that out from the BIBLE...its as plain as day!


AEvans profile image

AEvans 7 years ago from SomeWhere Out There

John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people , said "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. I realize your thoughts about believing or not believing and it certainly isn't our place to push our thoughts on others. I am Christian and I have had so many wonderful things happen to me all because of Jesus. I will also say that I have backslid and do not declare myself to be a perfect Christian, there isn't one out there and we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. What I can say is that God does understand how hard it is to walk right and understands when we question him. The interesting thing about your article is you are now questioning the word as well. You are intrigued by it and are searching for answers.

Psalm 19 1:2 says The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork., and night unto night reveals knowledge.

Psalm 98:2 says The Lord has made know his salvation: his righteousness he has revealed in the nations.

John 1 teaches In the beginning was the word. and the word was with God.

You see if we just pick up the Bible and read it that is o.k. to, many do not have to belong to any type of branch of Christianity one merely has to read the word and understand why God is saying. The person who is wanting to know him will be guided to the church that he is supposed to be in, and the spirit will convict him if it is the wrong church. We as Christians cannot Judge someone as we to will be judged. We can only guide and pray for those , but we should not push our beliefs on others.

Peter denied Jesus Mark 14:30 before the rooster crows twice you yourself wil disown me three times. It is o.k. to deny Jesus as many have and Jesus has kept the love for those regardless of how they felt, in the end Peter believed.

Whatever you are seeking he is always listening and in God's eyes you are also a child of Christ. I respect your thoughts and you will find your answers. :)


Pest profile image

Pest 7 years ago from A Couch, Lake Odessa, MI

I am more of a not believer than an unbeliever.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

There is the Believer and the Seeker. They are not the same. The Seeker is one who says "I do not know and may never know, but I will keep seeking just in case." The Believer says "I know. Therefore I am obliged to help you know. If you do not accept what I know, then I pity you. You are among the lost."

And then there is the Unbeliever who says, "You are all wrong. There is no god, no spirit, no nothing. We live, we die, end of it. Evolution is the truth. You can't change truth. The universe is a gigantic accident."

And the Not Believer? I would guess that you are actually a Seeker. Am I right?

Those who accept the Bible as literal Truth, God's Word, will not be hindered. That's not my aim. I aim for the other two. The Seeker and the Unbeliever. My job is to get to them before the Believers do. And every time the Believer gets emotional and starts charging me with evil, or demonic intentions, or the like, I know that I am heading in the right direction.

Thank you, Believers, for helping me to prove my points. Every time you threaten or use fear tactics, you push the other two further away from you and closer to me. For that, I am grateful. You do my job for me and you do it quite well.

Sound familiar?

Blessings to all...


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I am a believer and I don't think that I have even once gotten emotional, angry or accused you of anything at all. I have my beliefs and I'm strong in them (you've said that yourself). But I am not going to even attempt to force someone to believe something that to them is unreasonable. I've been on the receiving end of those interactions and I know that it doesn't work.

I also don't think that believers never question. My experience is that it's the nature of belief to question. If we don't question, how can we ever be certain that we truly believe?

Also, look at countrywomen, another believer. I don't see that she has gotten emotional or that she has tried to press her beliefs on others. She won't convince me that hinduism is the right path and I'm not going to convince her that Christianity is the right path. I feel that we could very likely discuss the issue provided that we were equally open and honest with regard to what we believed, without things becoming a bitter argument.

One believer (regardless of their belief) doesn't speak for all.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Oh, hi, Everyday Miracles

I wasn't necessarily addressing the previous message to you. But you must confess that dogged believers, especially Christian and Muslim, are convinced that the rest of us are out of the fold and on our way to perdition.

Now, you said in your own hub that you are under a bit of stress right now. So, you don't have to respond to what I am about to write if you don't want to. I will challenge everything you just wrote, both because I think you may be looking through rose colored glasses and also because my job as a New Thought minister is to shake up our certainties, to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.

I am going to take the position of the evangelical, fundamentalist, traditional born again believer here. Ready? Here goes...

The so called Christian who says he/she is still asking questions, is still seeking, has not fully surrendered his/her life to the Lord. Once that unmistakeable experience occurs, you will never question again. You will study and search the scriptures, pray, meditate, and join with others of like mind but for one purpose only: to deepen your walk with Jesus, not to understand other paths. All other paths lead to destruction. There is no other opinion or philosophy that can do anything for you but distract. Tools of the devil, all of them. To say that you remain open, to continue questioning, is a sure sign that you have not fully given your heart to Christ. I warn you as a Believer: do not get caught in the trap of 'seeking.' If you have turned your life over to Jesus, then you have found all you need. The rest is of the world, of Satan, and of no use to you. Walk the straight path. Any deviation will bring disaster.

There isn't a "true believer" on the planet that would question what I just wrote. If they do, they simply are not true believers. They are seekers. And they are bound for hell.

Rough stuff, isn't it? But it all comes straight from your Bible, particularly from the writings of St. Paul and John the Revelator.

Welcome to the delighfully deviant world of the Seeker. You fit right in.

Blessings...


AEvans profile image

AEvans 7 years ago from SomeWhere Out There

Hi Richard, Why do you call it our Bible are you not a minister? What book do you read your passages from? First you say that we need to walk exactly like Jesus and then you earlier statement makes me believe you are one of Satan. I am not trying to be rude at all, I am simply looking for clarification and understanding on what it is you are exactly trying to present.

There are seekers of the word and there are Christians the force there belief on others, we all need to simply read the Holy Bible ourselves, get right with God and not worry about what person needs to be what religion. If we all believe in one God, there really shouldn't be any difference. If a minister reads the passage, we should read it again for ourselves as a minister will although a teacher will tell you in there terms what they wish for you to hear. If you read the book for itself and ask God to guide in aiding with the answers that is a much better teaching then man.


Pest profile image

Pest 7 years ago from A Couch, Lake Odessa, MI

perfectly said AE


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

Yes, I am a minister, but not a traditional one. What separates New Thought teachings from others is the fact that we don't believe in a literal devil. Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub are all states of consciousness. Fear, anger, greed, judgmentalism, racism, homophobia, pride, self righteousness and the like are all states of mind. But humans in their various religions have heaped those characteristics on an outside creature called the devil.

We accept complete responsibility for those characteristics. We do not place the blame on an evil spirit. We believe that the universe is infilled with One Power. You can call that Power God or you can call it Mayonnaise. It matters not. It is the experience of the Inner Presence that counts. Jesus put it this way (and I paraphrase a bit): Don't look for the kingdom in the sky, or over in the Holy Land. It is not up, it is not down. The kingdom of God is within you.

We accept that as true. The kingdom is within. That means simply that the Spirit is present everywhere. And in that belief, we accept that compassion, or the way of active love, is the path that leads to peace. Compassion is not necessarily a feeling; it is action. Profess with your lips, act with your hands.

And of course, since there is no devil, we are each free to find Truth (whatever that means) in our own way. We do not claim Ultimate Truth. We are seekers. As the Greek philosophers said, Hear those who say they seek truth; run from those who say they've found it."

When you release the belief in a literal devil, everything changes. The beginning of freedom is at hand.

Blessings...


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Richard, I will simply say this:

Your comment to me is the very reason I feel the need for a book on the subject of how (not) to handle non-Christians, new Christians and unbelievers. The type of statement that you made (as a fundamentalist Christian) is what my husband refers to as "pharasitical" and we know how Jesus felt about the Pharasees ;)


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

Richard, can you please define "faith" for me in your words? I had a brainstorm!


sharrie69 profile image

sharrie69 7 years ago from Trinidad (an island in the Caribbean)

It is ironic..that religion (as most religions do) teaches about love, tolerance and respect for others but is the root cause of most of the wars and evil things in this world. Humans get all caught up in the idea of 'my God is better than your God' and fail to realise that it all boils down to the same thing in the end. Love. Respect. Tolerance.

Being a good person is not about what religion you belong to or what God you serve..its about how you live your life and how it enriches others in the process. You can go to church every Sunday and preach the Word but if you don't walk the walk there is no point. A good unbeliever in my books is better than a hypocritical Zealot any day.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

I would definitely agree with you, sharrie69. I have seen some of the debates that go on in the other hubs and in the forum, it seems that the debaters intention is not to debate, but to insult and put the other party down. It is sad.

At least we have truth seekers here, whatever the truth might be. :)


jjrubio 7 years ago

All I have to say is the ones who do not believe that there exists a devil has already succumbed to his side. Brainwashed by your misleading teachings. You are the one who is lost Richard and for that I pity you and the poor innocent and probably sincere people you are misleading.

You cannot say you are a minister for GOD and then talk against him as you did in your previous comment. That is wrong.

You can judge me all you want which you have already displayed in your comments. But I am not worried about you, just as I am not worried about what the "World" thinks of me either. And you can talk all you want about the "believer" and the ones who say " I know"....I myself can say " I read, therefore I choose to gain accurate knowledge" not other peoples opinions.

I just cannot fathom how a human being created by GOD could talk down against him and actually state that you do not believe in a literal devil, and how you cast your stones of Opinion that GOD is the "bad guy"...... Again, I am happy I am not in your shoes.

AND FOR EVERYONE READING THIS...I RESPECT ALL HUMAN BEINGS REGARDLESS OF RELIGION. BUT I DO NOT APPRECIATE OTHERS TALKING BADLY OF THE CREATOR, WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO CALL HIM GOD, ALLAH, YAHWEH OR WHATEVER...IT IS NOT RIGHT

 


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

I just don't see the point in all that, wandererh. How does insulting someone win their heart to your side of the aisle?


AEvans profile image

AEvans 7 years ago from SomeWhere Out There

Richard, That is quite a unique approach as I do know God is within and God has made us all in his own image, so you are on the right track. Lucifer is a fallen angel and it is written in the Bible, so how can we believe that it isn't true when the words are in black and white? I do not believe that we should be judgemental and that is pushed often , because we need to look at ourselves. But the Holy Bible is written for us to understand and acknowledge God's existence and it is written in Revelations that noboy should add to or take from the word of God. If this is also true then why are so many churches popping up  and creating their own religious beliefs? Should we not be following the word of God?

Wandererh: I am not seeking the truth as I know the truth and the truth is God. It is written in the Holy Bible, I am merely trying to understand other people's beliefs and thoughts on the matter without passing any judgement as that is what Jesus would do.:)


sharrie69 profile image

sharrie69 7 years ago from Trinidad (an island in the Caribbean)

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and once went to a mass where the priest (who was born a Hindu and converted) put down other religions and poured fire and brimstone down from the pulpit in the worst way. I got up and left. I felt sick to my stomach. I felt angry. How could he speak about other human beings in that way? Needless to say I hardly ever go to church anymore..except for weddings and funerals. Now, not all priests are like this horrible one..many are good, kind, well intentioned people, but personally I find it makes much more sense to me to live my life in the same way I would like to be treated by others. That's my religion.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Everyday Miracles - Huh?  Perhaps you read me wrong.  To put it another way, I guess I was saying that the debates got so emotional that it wasn't a debate anymore.  I wasn't trying to insult anyone.


Everyday Miracles profile image

Everyday Miracles 7 years ago from Indiana, USA

No, I read you right. You read me wrong :) I was agreeing with you!


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Oh, okay. :)


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

AEvans - sorry about that. I stand corrected - we have really awesome truth seekers and believers here. :)


AEvans profile image

AEvans 7 years ago from SomeWhere Out There

wandererh: It is o.k. I just believe that if we can all understand one another without pointing fingers the world would be a better place. I have had things happen in my life and I definitely know there is a God. In my weakest hour , as I knelt and prayed I had seen Jesus stand before me, it wasn't what my mind created it is what God put before me. I have written about some of what I have experienced and some I have held in, as many would think I was a nutcase. I know I do not walk as close as I should, I know that I have fallen short of the Glory, but My Lord Jesus loves me and others just the same. We are all not going to go to hell, especially if we ask for forgiveness and are saved. When I write about God, I ask God to always guide me as there are people out there who would pass judgement. That is not what Jesus would do, so I only seek him and let the rest of the world battle with each other as I have to work on myself before I can argue so I simply try to understand. No harm done.:)


Whikat 7 years ago

Thanks for this hub, I think it brings good questions. All I known is God, Allah, The Universe, Jesus or whatever else you want to call it, is bigger than all of us and bigger than the Bible, Koran and the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Whikat 7 years ago

I apologize I spelled Quran wrong and I missed the Torrah, My apologies. I meant no disrepect forgetting the other books.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Whikat - No, you didn't. The Quran can also be called the Koran. :)

MineField - Thanks! :)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

First, to Everyday Miracles: the Bible defines faith (St. Paul's words) as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's a pretty good definition if not slightly abstract. In essence, it means that faith, unlike hope, is solid. The metaphyics crowd would say that faith is living in complete expectation. That is the substance. You know in your heart of hearts that something is real, is available, is happening, is coming. Like stepping into a shower. You know without question that you will get wet. Evidence, then, is the wetness. You know you will get wet, and you do. To sum, faith is living in a state of knowing. In regard to faith in God, it means you know without doubt that your needs are met, your life is exactly as it should be, that nothing is out of place. Even the so-called bad stuff is part of the play. That's faith.

So, if you have that kind of faith, I applaud you.

And to Minefield: Thanks for the kind words. My job as a New Thought minister is to create a stir. And when stirs happen, fear can rise to the top. Why? There's so much of it. But we move through it. We hold our emotions in place and respond rather than react. In my heart of hearts, I know that there is no literal devil, that there is only One Power. It is the Power that is the energy of the universe. It animates everything. It is not divided. And it is not saddled with human characteristics like anger, vengeance, and punishment. This Power is Love in Action. It operates in and through everything. Nothing is separate. When the Bible says God is Love, this is what it means. When you walk in that knowledge, when you allow yourself to let go of the fear that the devil believers would have you wallow in, you step into a new way of living.

But that's just me.

Finally, to everyone, consider this fact: The word "Lucifer" is a Latin word. It is found only once in the Bible and that is in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah. Isaiah was originally written in Hebrew, centuries before the Latin language came into existence. So how do we explain a Latin word in an ancient Hebrew document? It was placed there by later Christian writers to make a point. And also, the word "Lucifer" refers to the planet Venus, or in English, Bringer of the Dawn. Jesus himself is referred to as Venus when he is described as The Bright and Morning Star. And Satan is also borrowed from older languages.

The devil is not real. He is a figment of the imagination. He is a product of the early church, used to control the people. Without a devil, salvation is unnecessary. The church would collapse as a house of cards without him. He is the true linchpin of Christianity. Not God, not Jesus. The devil. You can believe in God or Jesus all you want, but if you remove Satan from the equation, what do you have? Nothing.

If you want to believe in Satan, if you want to believe that those who don't are under his spell, you are welcome to do so. I for one do not care.

Now, that should stir up things a bit, don't you think?


AEvans profile image

AEvans 7 years ago from SomeWhere Out There

Mindfield: No intellectual content and I quoted passages, so who is babbling and you honestly didn't say much about the topic but that you agreed. You come from God's country so what is that you know about God, since we all seem to be babbling to you? No disrespect intended.


sarah p 7 years ago

dear unbeliever look at all the beatiful things around you dont you think there is a creator that created it. example there is a house do u think that the house just was there by chance no a person builds it so think again did we live by chance or is there a God that created us? thanks


Tien Kai 7 years ago

There is no truth, only what is capable of being experienced as actual. God does not need to proven, if gods existence is an apparently natural phenomenon. this is the major problem with belief. belief has nothing to do with what is actual, belief depends on "knowledge" and a great portion of human knowledge is in fact not based on actual experience. It is natural -NATURAL- for human beings to want "proof", i.e., experience what is real as if its -well- actually real. real is its own proof, not the proof of a belief. Believers just don't get it; you don't need to ask for proof of something that actually exists! It apparently exists whether you believe it does or not.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 7 years ago from Singapore Author

Thanks for dropping by, Tien Kai. :)


Saved by Grace 6 years ago

The love of God is the Greatest force in the Universe. The early disciples were not tied together in organization, sworn together in doctrine or frozen together in tradition. They were melted together in love. God's supreme purpose is to unite His children with Himself. A Christian without love is an impossible contradiction. He that loves not, does not know God, for God is love. Love draws the lost. Love is our greatest single weapon for world conquest. When Jesus prayed he related love to unity. He allowed His desciples to hear Him pray this. It was His last request before the cross. God wants us to be one. The means of doing this is not by plans or programs. It will show visibly on earth what is already true in heaven. that the Church is a single body with Christ as the Head. If the Church acted (Or the Believer) like a family with love, the world would see reality.


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 6 years ago from US

Until He comes into our hearts/souls we don't know him. We already cannot see him so unbelief would have to be lack of a spiritual experience with Jesus.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 6 years ago from Singapore Author

Well, then it is understandable that unbelievers ask for proof since they do not have the proof - spiritual experience - that the believers have. :)


Kevin 6 years ago

People who are reading this thread need to ask themselves one simple question, "Is truth absolute?". Most of the people who talk about 'being spiritual' and who preach 'religious tolerance' are people who, deep down, don't believe in truth - truth that is the same for everyone, in all places and at all times. Instead they believe that every person has their own truth - that truth is relative and that religion or spirituality is about a journey to find this 'truth' that is inside. A very misguided view of truth. Truth has nothing to do with what you believe. Because you believe something does not make it true. If you choose not to believe in gravity, do you float away? If you believe you have $100,000 in your bank account, when in fact you have $42, can you withdraw the $100,000? No, of course not. There are no relative truths. Truth is absolute and that means that when you are thinking or talking about the truth of God, it is also absolute. For example, the Qua'ran and the Bible can not both be true. Spiritualism that seeks to enable each person to find his 'inner truth' also can not be a path to truth, simply because truth can't be different for each person - by definition. The reality is that the claims of Jesus Christ are exclusive. He didn't say I am *one* way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me... he said I am *the* way... Either Christ was correct or he was not. That's what every person must decide for themselves and whether he is correct or not has nothing to do with what you believe. Truth is not about believing or faith. The only thing that faith and believing do is appropriate the salvific properties of the truth to oneself.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 6 years ago from Singapore Author

I don't think I agree with you 100%, Kevin.

I do agree that there are many things in which truth can be considered absolute, or at least as absolute as our science can tell us. Truths like the sun rises from the east, and that gravity causes you to fall towards the earth, can probably be accepted as absolute truths.

But if you are talking about spiritual truth, I think we are on a little more shaky ground. For example, a statement like "God created the world in 6 days." can be subject to interpretation. 6 days can be interpreted literally, or it can be subject to other interpretations.


Tracy McGrath profile image

Tracy McGrath 5 years ago from Tyler, Texas

I found your hub to be very interesting and useful at the same time.


wandererh profile image

wandererh 5 years ago from Singapore Author

Thanks! I wrote this quite a while back and I have moved from where I was then, but as you said, I still find this very interesting and useful. :)

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