Why I Don't Believe in an Eternal Hell - Christian Universalism

Poll: Which choice best expresses what you believe about hell?

See results without voting

Why I'm a Christian Universalist

I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist environment. Over the years, I developed a deep-seated terror of the idea of an eternal hell. Because of this, I eventually suffered a devastating mental breakdown centered around thoughts of my own damnation, and this finally drove me to find new beliefs I had never even anticipated. Today, I believe that one may have a Christian faith while rejecting the idea that anyone will spend an eternity in “hell”. This is not to say that no one will be punished after death, but that this punishment is temporary and remedial (for the person's own good). Christian Universalism is the belief that, through Christ, God will eventually bring all people into a relationship with himself. The doctrine of Universalism makes sense to me because many Christian scriptures explicitly state it; because it was widely taught within the early church, seemingly unchallenged by the church for hundreds of years; because it can be inferred from the Christian conception of God’s nature; and because scriptures that seem to contradict the doctrine can be viewed as either mistranslations or misinterpretations.

The Bible Explicitly Supports Universalism

First of all, I personally value the Bible as a source of spiritual wisdom. The Bible explicitly states the doctrine of universalism in many places. First Timothy 4:10 says that "God, … is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe". Notice here, it says he is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. It doesn’t say he is the savior of only those who believe, but especially of those who believe. Romans 5:18 says that Christ’s sacrifice “…leads to justification and life for all people. See how it says justification and life? It isn't talking about merely a physical resurrection for all people, but new spiritual life and forgiveness for all people. Christ himself is quoted as saying, "I … will pull all people to myself" (John 12:32). There are many more scriptures like these. Theologians often try to explain away these scriptures by saying things like the word “all” means “all the elect”, or “all who believe”. But the Greek word for “all” undoubtedly means the same thing that it does in English: simply put, it means “all”.

Universalism Was Unchallenged by the Early Church

I also learned that universalism was openly taught and widely believed throughout the early Christian church for hundreds of years, only being formally denounced as heretical in the middle of the sixth century. For most of the years prior to this, there is no record of the doctrine having be censured or even criticized, despite the fact that very many ideas were continually being attacked or censured as heretical throughout these years by the church. Dr. Hosea Ballou, who served as the first president of Tufts University in Massachusetts, informs us in his book The Ancient History of Universalism that for hundreds of years, Universalism was explicitly taught by such eminent church fathers as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa with widespread acceptance and little or no evident resistance from within the church.

Philosophical Justification for Universalism Based on God's Nature

Next, my concept of God leads me to believe in Universalism. I believe that God is Love. If God is Love, then surely he wants the best for every person. Many scriptures support this. 1 Timothy 2:4 says "God … wants all people to be saved". I also believe God is powerful enough to accomplish whatever He wants. Isaiah 46:10 says “I (God) will accomplish all that I please”. When Christ’s disciples once asked him “Who can be saved?”, part of his response was, “With God, all things are possible”, by which we can infer: God can save anyone! If God desires that every person be saved, and he is able to bring about all that he desires, how can anyone not be saved? The doctrine of eternal damnation suggests that either God’s love or God’s power is deficient.

If you're enjoying my writing in this article, please take a moment to look at some of my short poems: click here. This opens in a new window, so you won't lose the article you're currently reading.

Study of the Greek Texts Supports Universalism

Finally, I’ve come to believe that scriptures which seem to teach eternal punishment can be viewed as either mistranslations or misinterpretations. I base this belief on the opinions of certain highly esteemed Greek scholars such as William Barclay, who wrote a wildly popular series of commentaries on the books of the New Testament, and discusses his own Universalist beliefs in his book William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography. I also base this conviction on my own study of Greek, which I've studied for several years, including formally for two years at the University of Tennessee (although my mastery of Greek is insignificant when compared with William Barclay's formidable expertise on the subject).

The word that is consistently translated as “eternal”, for example, is the Greek adjective “aionios”, derived from the noun “aion”, which is best translated “a span of time” “an age”. An “age” typically denotes a lengthy, yet finite period of time. “Aionios”, as an adjective based on that noun “aion“, need not carry greater weight than the noun it was based upon. If we take the English noun “day”, for example, and turn it into the adjective “daily”, then “daily” suggests the same time frame. A daily shower would not refer to a shower taken every week, or every year, but every day. So perhaps a better translation of “aionios” would be “age-lasting” or “pertaining to an age”. A number of respected early Christian writers described “aionios” punishment or fire as God’s way to eventually bring the punished souls back into fellowship with himself! Such uses of the term “aionios punishment” would make no sense if the term refers to punishment with no end. Additionally, such references to an end of hell’s punishments for the individual were often made without much explanation by the authors, which would suggest that ancient readers would not have noticed a linguistic or theological contradiction that would demand further explanation.

William Barclay, in his book William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, says that "aionios" denotes something that pertains to God, and the word for "punishment" (that is, the Greek word "kolasis"), which originally meant to prune trees, never denotes anything but remedial discipline. Thus, according to Barclay, the Greek terms which we have generally translated as "eternal punishment" are better thought of as meaning "that remedial/corrective punishment which God, and God alone, is fit to give".

So I’ve shown how Christian scriptures, Universalism’s seemingly orthodox status for hundreds of years in the early church, and the Christian conception of God all support the doctrine of Universalism; as well as how scriptures which seem to contradict it may seem to do so because of misinterpretation. For these reasons, and many more, I believe that a Christian perspective invites a belief in universal salvation far more than it invites a belief in the salvation of only some. Due to the potential psychological and social impact of the widely proclaimed doctrine of eternal torment, I urge not only those of you who call themselves Christians, but even those of you who aren’t religious to closely examine these issues, lest we allow a dangerous error to continue thriving.

More by this Author


Comments 140 comments

Lilred 5 years ago

Informative hub, thanks for writing it.


Dude 5 years ago

It sounds like you thought you were going to Hell. But instead of making sure of your salvation (like trusting in Christ), you came up with a way for you to completely avoid it. I'm sorry, but that's a terrible way to start an article as it makes your motives questionable.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

"Dude",

On the contrary, I think that by relating my life experiences as they happened, my motives become all the more transparent and straightforward. In fact, I tell you in the very title of this article what the article is really about: me. It is about why I do not believe in hell, and not about why you or anyone else ought or ought not believe in hell. And since it is about why I, personally, do not believe in hell, I think it is most honest and appropriate to give you the history of personal circumstances which led to my own "conversion" so to speak.

Admittedly, I might never have been freed from a lot of dogmatic bondage (as I see it) had not God intervened in my life in the way that He did. Although the experience was more painful than (I hope) you will ever be capable of imagining, it has brought me to where I am today, so I am thankful. In the end, I feel no need to question God's methods, when all along his motives were for my good: to bring me into a trusting relationship with Him as He truly is (love).

I truly appreciate your honest feedback, as I appreciate any honest criticism that may give me pause to reflect and reevaluate what I believe and why I believe it.


Glemoh101 profile image

Glemoh101 5 years ago

Great hub , thank you.


Twilight Lawns profile image

Twilight Lawns 5 years ago from Norbury-sur-Mer, Surrey, England. U.K.

A very interestign and well discussed subject. I really feel that I have never heard a more simple, butwell founded arguyment on the subjest. I love this quote: "God, … is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe". Notice here, it says he is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe". please don't disappoint me by haveing the adenrum "in Jesus". I love the concept of "all who believe".

And your, "the Greek word "kolasis"), which originally meant to prune trees, never denotes anything but remedial discipline" is one of the most reassuring set of words I have read for a long time.


zzron profile image

zzron 5 years ago from Houston, TX.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how a person can claim to be a Christian and believe only parts of the Bible. I am a Christian and the Bible is very clear about what it says about Hell. Maybe you will reconsider after reading this. God bless you. http://www.av1611.org/hell.html


Pamitchrus 5 years ago

Welcome to the truth brother for indeed He is the Savior of all men in due time and season, remembering that his kingdom has not yet come, but when he does come as the Lion then the bad kids will be put to bed to be awakened in the next morning to make apology to those whom they offended..

Don't be swayed from the truth you have found, for these are those days of which Paul warned Timothy ( 1 timothy chapter 4 ) that men would be given over to the doctrine of devils and demons .. The church is blind just as Jesus said she would be..

Many blessing to you upon finding the truth.. for God is love and will thru the reign of his most precious Son bring all his wayward sheep home.. A few in this age, then the masses of which John saw after the Sons of

God are sent forth into the world.. That time we do anxiously await !!!

Great hub and again welcome to the Kingdom of God !! where love rules and the golden rule will break the false prophet !! oh my a taste of their own medicine will do them good...


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Thank you to everyone who has posted such positive, encouraging comments on this hub so far. Your encouragement truly means a lot to me.

zzron, I also appreciate your comment, and your civility. As for the link you gave me, I have seen it before. Honestly, I saw nothing convincing in it. I researched the story about the people who "dug" down to hell several months ago, and found that there is absolutely nothing to it. It was a hoax, pure and simple. I will locate some links about it to post on this article.

As for the NDEs (near-death-experiences), I'll admit some of that creeped me out, but being creeped out is just not a good enough reason to change one's mind about so important a matter. When it comes to NDEs, visions, dreams, and prophecies, I think we must take Paul's words: "test all things" quite seriously. Just because someone claims to have had a subjective experience, this does not constitute proof of anything. First, we can not verify their claim, because it was their own experience. Second, even if they did experience something hellish during an NDE, there is no proof I know of that NDEs themselves are anything more than the feverish imaginings of brains under the strain of dying. In other words, just because we dream that we go to hell, this does not mean we actually went there. And there is no evidence that I am personally aware of that NDEs are anything more than dreams (I'll admit I haven't studied it a great deal).

In any case, I am not denying the existence of hell, only that it lasts forever. So a hellish NDE, even if it showed the existence of hell, would not show that it is eternal. Some people have experienced hellish NDEs and then become universalists. Countless people who are not Christians have experienced blissful, heavenly NDEs. Since I doubt that you believe non-Christians go to heaven, you must admit that NDEs do not prove anything, or else such experiences would prove that Jesus is not the only way to heaven.

Ultimately, however, I believe we must use our reason, conscience, and guidance from God's Spirit in all such matters. You said, "the Bible is very clear in what it says about hell". I have, in this article (and the articles I link to from it), listed numerous statements within the Bible that contradict the idea of an eternal hell. So I would encourage you to respond in kind, if you want to start a discussion. Show me some examples of where the Bible is clear about what you believe, and I will evaluate them. I'm not looking to start an argument, but a reasoned discussion could prove beneficial to us both. Feel free to engage me in further discussion by commenting on this article, or by emailing me. And God Bless.


zzron profile image

zzron 5 years ago from Houston, TX.

I agree that the part in that link that mentioned the people digging into Hell sounds a bit off. I was referring to the scriptures that were mentioned and the words of Jesus where he talks and warns about Hell. The scriptures in that link is what I said were pretty clear to me. If Jesus said it I have to believe it is true.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

zzron, I'll get around to responding to some of those scriptures on that website. I may just make a new hub about that website in general. I'm pretty busy these days, so it might take a while.


graceomalley profile image

graceomalley 5 years ago

I was greatly influenced by reading The Great Divorce at as a young teenager, and also never felt comfortable with an eternal hell of burning & torment for human beings - esp. not with an all loving God sending them there.

My doubtfulness about universalism is that it seems to me some people don't want God, they really don't want Him. Would these people willingly go to heaven, which is full of Him & the knowledge of Him? One would think they would prefer not to. I can't identfy with this viewpoint, but it seems to be out there. Some people appear to not want to be happy. I was raised by one: my Grandmother, a deeply miserable person who seemed to enjoy her misery and go to lengths to deepen it. I also can't imagine God dragging the unwilling into heaven. If some really don't want to be near him, and prefer unhappiness to happiness forever - well, He did make us with free will. I imagine that universalism would say that God would be able to win everyone over - but what about those who just refuse? People don't always do what is in their best interests.

My question about universalism,


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

graceomalley,

No, I don't think that anyone will go to heaven who doesn't want God. While it is true that people don't always do what is in their best interest, and seem to prefer unhapiness to happiness, in my opinion, God must surely have ways of breaking such people. In this life, many people learn from the painful consequences of wrong actions. For the people who fail to learn the lessons of THIS life, I would expect there to be much more painful lessons to learn in the NEXT life. I don't know exactly what those would be, but would expect that a lot of the defense mechanisms with which people hide from the truth about themselves (such as denial, rationalization etc...) would be swept away upon death, leaving the soul standing naked and bare before God, others, and itself. I imagine that God has ways that we are not aware of to accomplish his purposes and desires, if not in this life, then in another.

Thanks for the comment!


mike 5 years ago

Is it that people don't want God or the caricature of God that has been presented by so many? I have a problem with the idea that people "reject" Jesus when they are simply rejecting a false Jesus that has been made to scare people into loving Him.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Mike,

Thanks for bringing up a very valid point. I think that many, many people are turned away from God/Christ primarily because of the actions and/or teachings of a large number of people who claim to be speaking on His behalf. While this is certainly not the only reason, perhaps not even the biggest reason, that people reject God, I think it is one of the biggest reasons. And you're right: in such cases it is not God that they are rejecting, but a false God. I find it an admirable thing, to reject a false conception of God, when such a conception is an affront to the nature of the true God. God will see to it that everyone who is unable to swallow a lie will eventually be filled with the truth.


graceomalley profile image

graceomalley 5 years ago

I must say I do like that, as it avoids penalizing those with integrity.


hemustincrease 5 years ago

The cross of Christ is a revelation of Gods wrath and His grace and mercy. There are very many Scriptures which tell us in no uncertain terms that "nobody who is a liar or a fornicator etc etc will enter into the Kingdom of heaven". Also we know that ALL of us are those things are more OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. He IS our salvation if we put our faith in HIM. I can VERY MUCH understand and empathise with that horrendous fear of hell and damnation. But unless it drives us to the CROSS and as such to CHRIST and all of HIS truth it is a fear that is STILL living and potentially even keeping us FROM Christ.

Revelation clearly shows us that even in the face of SEEING GODS works and KNOWING and BELIEVING it to be GOD many people still did not repent but simply wished themselves dead. The Bible is the only truth. It is a human tendency to want to take some of it and try and do away with other parts that are distasteful to us.

I think, with all due respect, the error is to refuse to take God at HIS word. He speaks of an eternal torment. An eternal hell. Just as He speaks of an eternal salvation. Gods justice cannot permit any soul to enter heaven OUTSIDE of Christ. If what you say is true, then are you suggesting that after a certain time of punishment everybody in hell will be able to put their faith in Christ and take Him to be their Saviour? How would you explain the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, which speaks of a great gulf set between them that NOBODY could bridge. If hell is not forever, then there HAS to be some way open to those in it, to bridge that gap. Will Christ need to be crucified in hell again to be that bridge? Or will His death and resurrection here on earth be at some point laid down as a bridge again affording a way to be reconciled with God and brought into heaven???

If you believe that hell is not eternal, what do you consider God will do to satan and the angels of darkness?

These are vital aspects of the doctrine found in Scripture. I can agree with you that we all must search the Scriptures and seek the Spirit to lead us in all truth.

Shalom :)


hemustincrease 5 years ago

Another query? What do you think Christ meant when He said there would be NO forgiveness for those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit? Was this a temporary rejection that would be overturned after a certain time in hell?


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Hemustincrease, thank you for bringing up some good points. I'll try to address them one by one, as best as I can.

"There are very many Scriptures which tell us in no uncertain terms that "nobody who is a liar or a fornicator etc etc will enter into the Kingdom of heaven".

I agree with this. I do not believe that anyone who is still in the condition of being a sinner will by any means enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"He IS our salvation if we put our faith in HIM. I can VERY MUCH understand and empathise with that horrendous fear of hell and damnation. But unless it drives us to the CROSS and as such to CHRIST and all of HIS truth it is a fear that is STILL living and potentially even keeping us FROM Christ."

Once again, we do not disagree. I too, believe that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. I have put my faith in Him, although sadly I do not abide in Him throughout each day nearly as much as I need to.

"The Bible is the only truth. It is a human tendency to want to take some of it and try and do away with other parts that are distasteful to us."

I don't know if I agree with the idea of biblical inerrancy or infallibility. That is something I'm still researching, and have really only begun to scratch the surface. It seems to be a complex issue. But when it comes to my universalism, I have established my beliefs within the confines of the Bible, not by discrediting the truth of the Bible. Personally, I do not see any reason to challenge the validity of the scriptures in order to uphold those particular beliefs.

"I think, with all due respect, the error is to refuse to take God at HIS word. He speaks of an eternal torment. An eternal hell. Just as He speaks of an eternal salvation."

I think that there is considerable room for varying interpretations on terms like "eternal life". I tend to view eternal life and eternal death/punishment/fire as two different qualities of being, both inherent in the nature of God himself. I have the conception well-established in my own mind, but find it a bit difficult to express.

Jesus said, "Now this is eternal life: that they know [that is, have close fellowship with] you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (John 17:3). Likewise, 1 John 3:15 speaks of eternal life as something which "abides within" a person. And 1 John 1 begins thus:

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

From these few examples (and there are more), we see that eternal life is first of all identified as the quality of being in close fellowship with God and his Son. This fellowship is something we can enjoy now, in this life. The word "Eternal" in "eternal life" clearly is not describing infinite duration, but is referring to our personal fellowship with the divine (that is, the "eternal"). Plato said that the word translated into English as "eternal" could only refer to God, the One Eternal). Eternal life then, is that true life which is only in the Eternal One, that is, in God. In fact, He IS Himself Eternal Life, as John expresses in 1 John 1 when, clearly referring to that same "Word" (Logos) which was with God in the beginning (the Word being God himself, or Christ), he calls it "that eternal life". He is referring here to Christ Himself, the Eternal Life of God made flesh and manifested to us. That Eternal Life (Christ) may dwell inside us, or not dwell inside us, as we see in 1 John 3:15. And then, most amazingly of all, John repeats almost verbatim what Jesus said in John 17, referring to "fellowship with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ", the very thing which Jesus DEFINED as eternal life.

Set counter to the concept of the Eternal Life is Eternal Death/Punishment/Fire. If Eternal Life is fellowship with God/Christ, indeed, IS God/Christ himself within us, then Eternal Punishment is the opposite: it is the absence of fellowship with God/Christ. This Punishment/Death is also eternal in the same sense that it is a part of God Himself. For all ages, the life of a sentient being is to fellowship with its creator. For all ages, the punishment of a sentient being is to sense a lack of fellowship with its creator. This punishment is eternal, not in the sense that it has an eternal duration for any one creature, but in the sense that it is inextricably bound up within the eternal nature of the relation between God and Creature.

Eternal punishment is still a PART of God. Nothing can, or ever has, or ever will be capable of existing completely outside of God. God is the eternal source of existence, not just at the moment of creation, but at every moment. If, for the slightest moment, any creature were to be utterly separated from God, that creature would simply cease to exist, as nothing but God possesses within itself the ability to exist.

So the separation from God is a separation from the Life-giving intimacy of fellowship with Him, but it can not be a complete separation from Him altogether. The soul in hell is still in God, because there is nowhere and nothing that can not be in God. The soul in hell is simply in the other side of God than the soul in heaven.

The soul in heaven is in God to the degree that it is conscious of blessed fellowship with God. The soul hell is in God, but is not even aware that it is in God, much less does it have the ability to fellowship with God.

So there are two eternal manifestations of God to sentient beings. The Life and the Fire. As the Bible itself states, "Our God is a consuming fire". Even the word "Brimstone" in Greek is "theos", which means, "God" or "divine". Brimstone got this name because it was used to purify (that is, sanctify) vessels for sacred temple use. The vessels would be burned with fire and "theos" (Brimstone/Divine/God), after which they were considered holy. God Himself is the fire, and the Fire will purify all.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Continuing my response to hemustincrease:

"Gods justice cannot permit any soul to enter heaven OUTSIDE of Christ. If what you say is true, then are you suggesting that after a certain time of punishment everybody in hell will be able to put their faith in Christ and take Him to be their Savior?"

Yes, that is exactly what I believe. "Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God". Now, to call someone Lord is to identify them as your own master. And "no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Sprit" (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Now, if every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth is to one day call Jesus Lord (which they must do by the Holy Spirit), how would such a confession be to "the glory of God" unless it is a sincere confession of worship and acceptance of Lordship?

"How would you explain the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, which speaks of a great gulf set between them that NOBODY could bridge."

I have actually written an entire article about that parable. Here is the link:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Parable-of...

"If you believe that hell is not eternal, what do you consider God will do to satan and the angels of darkness?"

I believe, along with many of the early Christians, that eventually every living thing will accept the full Lordship of Jesus Christ, glorifying God in so doing, and empowered to do so only by the Holy Spirit. This would include all fallen angels. How else will it be fulfilled that, after Christ puts down all rule and authority, he subjects himself and all things to God, "so that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). How can God be all in all if there is an entire race of beings (fallen angels) that he is not a part of, and that are no part of Him?

“"What do you think Christ meant when He said there would be NO forgiveness for those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit?"

Nowhere does Christ say that those who blasphemed against the Holy Spirit would NEVER have forgiveness. In Matthew 12:32, for example, he says that they will not have forgiveness “in this age, or in the coming age”. But “the coming age” is only one of many ages to come. Ephesians 2:7, for example, says that in the AGES (plural) to come, God will demonstrate the riches of his grace by the kindness He has shown us in Christ. It is undeniable that an age is a finite span of time: the word is used that way numerous times in the New Testament, and countless times in secular Greek literature. Between Matthew 12:32 and Ephesians 2:7, we have a contrast between the “age” to come and the “ages” to come. The “age to come” would have meant the age immediately following the age during which Christ spoke those words about blasphemy. But then there are more ages to come after that one, as we see by the plural use in Ephesians. That's just one short answer. Actually, I think I might just go ahead a write a new hub on the topic of the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

"These are vital aspects of the doctrine found in Scripture. I can agree with you that we all must search the Scriptures and seek the Spirit to lead us in all truth."

And I hope and pray that the Spirit will indeed lead us together into all truth. Peace :)


Marjie 5 years ago

I think it is highly arrogant of christans to think they can save anyone from hell by saying a prayer. Consequently we cannot save ourselves. It is God that saves us all by his gift of grace, we love him only because he first loved us. When one dies without confessing Christ it is God who will judge and purify that person so he will enter heaven. That is the good news, that Jesus died or all, and he knows who will believe and when, we are only messengers. Jesus said to make disciples not to save men but to teach en. Paul was in the temple daily reasoning with people some believed some did not. The church needs to get rid of the fear tactics because it is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance.


hemustincrease 5 years ago

"I don't know if I agree with the idea of biblical inerrancy or infallibility."

I truly do agree with nearly all that you have said. God IS hell just as much as God IS heaven. Nothing is outside of HIM. But i am certainly a believer in Biblical inerrancy. Outside of believing the Bible to be inerrant, anybody can pick and choose what they will believe (and as such obey) and what they will disbelieve (and as such disobey.) To abide in HIM is to abide in TRUTH and the WORD IS TRUTH. Outside of it being so, it is simply a useless book that might consist of some reasonable teachings that we can choose to follow or not, according to our determinations.

But so far as your concept of hell goes. I will have to set upon a closer examination of these things. But the kiddos are calling right now...LOL.........and that kind of study is way too in depth to do alongside toddlers. :)

Bear with me. I never want to walk away from a difference without first having WHOLLY sought the Spirit to lead me through the Scriptures. Any reply i might give now would be an unstudied one and as such of NO worth.

I thank you for raising these things anyway. Very interesting concepts.

Shalom


lindatymensky profile image

lindatymensky 5 years ago

It took guts to write this piece. And there are a lot of people over the last couple thousand years who agree with you. I don't, but who cares?


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

hemustincrease,

I'm glad to see we do share so much common ground. As for the Biblical inerrancy... well, I'll keep you posted on that, as I have only begun to really research it. But my Sunday school teacher from church made a similar argument as you did, to the effect that if the Bible wasn't inerrant, we could pick and choose from it, and thus pick and choose our ethics. He further argued that in picking and choosing our own ethics, nothing is to prevent the "will to power" from taking over, and all moral decisions being decided by might-makes-right. Interesting ideas. Not quite sure what to think of them though.

I admire your unwillingness to "walk away from a difference" before wholly seeking the Spirit's guidance.

I highly recommend that you carefully read the Unspoken Sermons of George MacDonald. Not just his stuff about Universalism specifically, but all of his sermons, as the experience of reading through him can not be described as anything but transcendent and illuminating.

Here is a link to an article I wrote about George MacDonald, and within the article are links to read his sermons for free online, or to purchase the collection of them from Amazon. http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/C-S-Lewis-...

I thank you so much for your gracious contributions to this discussion so far.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

lindatymensky,

Thank you for your comment and your good question. Yes, for years I didn't broadcast my Universalism quite so far and wide, partly because it took me a while to become sure of my belief. But eventually, I guess stuff like this is just something that one can't contain, especially when one's very life and sanity is largely owed to it.

But to answer your question, yes, I think that at least from about 150 CE to 550 CE, many people believed this way. There is considerable evidence that the doctrine was quite popular until its anathema under the will of emperor Justinian. Augustine himself seems to indicate that it was popular in his time (just over a hundred years before Justinian decided the doctrine was no good for his empire).

After about 550-600 CE, however, I would say that, by and large, Universalists remained a relatively small minority.


I Feel You On This 5 years ago

Hey,

I've recently come to the same conclusion myself - I was going to become Jewish based on my beliefs i.e. a non-eternal hell, among other such beliefs, but have found universalism. I went through a huge suffering, and only thanks to God am I well again. So, keep your beliefs strong for I feel we are right on this.


Ynys Dyn profile image

Ynys Dyn 5 years ago from Chicago, Illinois

Let me preface my comment by saying that it is quite late where I'm at and, if I'm wise, I will sleep soon so I can get up for church in the morning :) That said, I intend to FINISH reading this hub very soon.

I will be honesty and say I disagree with much of what I see here - and especially nothing will change my mind about the fact that the Bible is inerrant. But being as I'm only reading it near 1AM and haven't the frame of mind to search Scripture on my own views, I am not coming "armed" shall we say (nor do I intend to, ever.)

I will say that I don't believe that the Bible gives explicit enough credence to a universal Atonement - similarly, it does not give explicit preference to the concepts of free will (imho, i prefer 'human responsibility') and predestination.

I do however believe that faith in Christ as the only means of salvation is foundational to any Christian belief. Here I read that all people will ultimately be saved, a statement I do not agree with, but if I read correctly that you are saying CHRIST is ultimately the only way in which this will happen, that any salvation is possible, then I am happy to call you a brother in Him.

I am still off-put by the term Universalism, however - it is so deeply associated with Unitarianism, and from what I see it seems that you are talking about universal salvation through Christ (ie, TRUTH), not through whatever-you-happen-to-believe-because-it-doesn't-really-matter-in-the-long-run.

I am a student at Trinity International University, and I'm quite familiar with and surrounded by Christian doctrine - as such, if you'd like to discuss this topic further, feel free to message me. Though I can't call this hub "correct," I can call it "well-written" and "informative," having gained my interest, and I can promise you as even-tempered a discussion as another fallen human being is capable of offering :)

God be with you, Sir, ever making you into His likeness.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Wow, Ynys. Thank you for such a sincere and valuable contribution here. It is terribly late here as well (just past 2 am), and I really should be sleeping now, as I really should be getting up for church in the morning as well. But I couldn't leave your comment unanswered. I'll respond to several things you said, first quoting you in each instance.

"...nothing will change my mind about the fact that the Bible is inerrant..."

Well, I have no powerful aversion to innerancy on any emotional or personal level. Rather, I would quite like to be able to be convinced myself that the Bible is innerant, as such a belief was comforting when I did hold it, and it was such a part of me for so long that I have little pleasure in seeing it go. Really, I stand at a loss on the whole matter, as I have not invested sufficient time in properly researching the issue. But that is a state I hope to rectify presently.

"...if I read correctly that you are saying CHRIST is ultimately the only way in which this will happen, that any salvation is possible, then I am happy to call you a brother in Him."

You do read me correctly. I believe that Christ is ultimately the only way to salvation, and I am glad to be called your brother. I find your position on this to be enlightened and refreshing. You recognize a profound and eternal truth: if any two people trust in Christ as their only possible salvation, they are of one body in Christ, regardless of other doctrinal differences. Sadly, so many people miss this truth, and so the body of Christ is divided.

"I am still off-put by the term Universalism, however - it is so deeply associated with Unitarianism, and from what I see it seems that you are talking about universal salvation through Christ (ie, TRUTH), not through whatever-you-happen-to-believe-because-it-doesn't-really-matter-in-the-long-run."

I agree that, in the popular mind, the term "Universalism" is most strongly associated with Unitarian Universalism (UU), which is indeed not any sort of Christianity. Here's an informative link on that distinction: http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/unit...

Thank you for your gracious comments and your interest in my writing. I'll look forward to talking with you further.

-In His Love


Jefsaid profile image

Jefsaid 5 years ago from London, UK

You write some very engaging and deep articles. I am not indoctrinated with Christian faith as while my mother was a believer, my father was not. I have thus had a balanced view of religion and throughout my life I have been able to stand back and observe from the sidelines. To me, religion is a form of social control which uses hell's fire to instil fear and unworthiness to instil guilt. As most people grow up with these beliefs, it becomes very difficult to think any other way. Looking on a global scale, there are so many different philosophies and in each case those indoctrinated see no other way than what they know. In parts of the Far East, millions of people have no concept of Christianity or its interpretation of god. In fact, only the oneness with life itself matters and the beliefs they follow are clearly of human philosophical origin, rather than an intricate collection of texts based on mythical stories. The irony is that these people are referred to in Western thinking as mystics..? As a consequence of my views on life, hell's fire is simply an imaginary fear instilled in people through religious indoctrination.


epigramman profile image

epigramman 5 years ago

...well there are two subjects here at the Hub, as you probably know, which illicit the most passionate responses - politics and religion - and sex too - so it took me a little while to scroll down to the bottom of the screen - lol lol - but basically for me - both heaven and hell is here on earth in the choices that you make for yourself - and sometimes these choices are made for you - but certainly I made the right choice to come here to your hallowed hubspace - you speak the intellect, you walk the walk and talk the talk - and have such a rich academic background in your sacred writing style that it makes the poor epi-man's head spin !!!!!!

Back to Leonard Cohen for a moment - what are some of your favorite songs? Do you like his written work and short stories and novels? Are you familiar with his work on DVD like concerts, documentaries and tributes?

Also as a footnote - DANCE ME TO END OF LOVE is about the Jewish prisoners being marched into the gas chambers in the concentration camps during World War II!


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

@Jefsaid

Thank you for your compliments! You said, "To me, religion is a form of social control which uses hell's fire to instil fear."

Here, I think you echo the criticism of the great empiricist David Hume, who criticized religion for being based on nothing but hope and fear. I heartily agree with you and Hume to a certain extent, but I won't go so far as to say that ALL religion is thus. True, one must sift through a tremendous amount of nonsense to get anywhere near the true essence of religion, which is quite simple: Love.

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution here :)


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

epi, I suppose you're right that religion, sex, and politics tend to illicit tremendous response. I guess I shouldn't worry though, because I don't participate much in politics! lol

"heaven and hell is here on earth in the choices that you make for yourself"

I agree with that. I've certainly been to hell, having suffered a psychotic breakdown and having been hospitalized for my alcohol abuse etc... I also tend to think that our choices and inclinations would follow us into whatever afterlife there may be, where they would continue to shape our environment for better or worse. Of course, as I hope I made clear in this Hub, I think that the laws of the universe are such that no person is immune to learning the lessons that must be learned, either in this life or in any number of future lives.

Some of my favorite Leonard Cohen songs: In My Secret Life, A Thousand Kisses Deep, Suzanne, Famous Blue Raincoat, If it be Your Will, Waiting for the Miracle, Dance Me To the End of Love, Hallelujah, Everybody Knows... I'm sure there are others I can't think of at the moment :)

I love his written poetry. His poetry has been a big inspiration for my own. Unfortunately, I've not yet read any of his fiction. I remember seeing a movie about him some years ago in which a ton of different artists did tributes to him throughout. And I recently watched an interview with him on Youtube that I found quite fascinating. He talked about death, among other things.

Have you ever been to one of his concerts?

I didn't know about that meaning behind Dance me to the End of Love. Wow! That certainly give it a whole new dimension!

Thank you for giving such wonderful compliments to my writing! You, sir, are a Jedi master of the art form of compliments. You are the Michaelangelo of compliments! I think Hubpages needs to invent a new accolade just for such as yourself!


bugslady8949 profile image

bugslady8949 5 years ago from The Bahamas

I also do not believe in Hell but I believe there is a God,Heaven and the devil.The reason why I do not believe in hell is that God loves us so much why would he want to hear us scream in pain and calling his name to save us? the God I serve is love. I think hell really means when Jesus comes back on earth the ones who are not in the book of life will not be alive but dead, never to see their love ones and they will remain dead, that's me.


spkanu profile image

spkanu 5 years ago from NEW YORK

I don't have enough time to read the rest of you statements but just the few that I have read including the starting article...it seems like this is the same reason why some of my boys left christianity to look for other religion that does not state that there is punishment for wrong behavior...its is clearly stated and demonstrated throughout the bible that a man will have to pay for his wrong deeds...not only there is a hell...its eternal. Yes Jesus came to save us all...the invitation is for all but the other part of the invitation requires you to perform a task...which is for you to accept and believe...the believe or faith in Christ is the key to Heaven but the accepting part shows in your actions or choices...Most people stats that there is no God and no after life...if you live life with this concept...you will find yourself and being able to be honorable...lying, stealing, killing, etc will just be another survival skill...Do you think for a second a man repeated convected rapist will be able to get rid of his bad habbit just because he was submited to a little pain and suffering...and about the judgement seat...you think if Jesus came and die to save us and you reject Him that you will be able to escape judgement because of the good you have done on you own...this is the reason why He came to give us the only chance...You hear Him through the Bible telling people to repent from the evil ways because judgement is at hand...the reason you are so afraid of hell is because you have misunderstood the concept of being a Christian...Being a Christian does not mean one will never sin no more...What it is basically saying is that for start... fist learn about Jesus and just all he talks about or teaches (because he was the best teacher and he knew more than the rest)...secound is following the teachings and making them a part of your lifestyle regardless of what happens or what people say...after these seem to be simple steps you will notice you life will change because you walking the "straight and narrow parth" that is difficult to walk but will lead you to honor, respect, trust and many more repectable titles...now these are the fruits of walking in rightousness...after you reach this level the "devil or the enimy will be angry with you and will want to test you to see if you are really "God-like or in living as an image of God." Chances are you are going to fail some if not plenty...it is the way sin make you feel after that realy says weather you are with God or not...if you careless and probably do the same act without a thought...or are you going to feel bad and find ways or pray to avoid repeating the offence...there are times you still will repeat the offence...and this is the key...do not give up and keep trying...if you really mean it you will find ways to master the problem...more later...


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 5 years ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

Hi japtaker,

I would like to ask you a few questions to help clarify your hub for me. I hope you don't mind?

From what I have read, I am assuming that you believe in hell, but your contention is the nature of the second death, which in your case is dispelling the eternal conscience torment (torture) to an eternal destruction (everlasting death or destruction of the soul) stance?

Also, are you trying to say that it is not an issue of whether hell exists, but what happens there?

Is it simply a free choice to choose eternal life through the grace of Jesus Christ, or eternal death by experiencing the righteous judgement of God?

Is the existence of hell to give everyone the choice to choose the grace of Jesus Christ or the eternal judgement of God to those who deny Christ?

I believe that if we have a relationship with Jesus Christ, read the Word of God, and filter all doctrine and ideologies through Scripture, that the truth will boldly stand out.


Wade Balsdon 5 years ago

I think it is important to not bend the scriptures to suit ourselves.


cpr 5 years ago from Springfield MO

I just wanted to say I enjoyed your hub. It is well written and certainly thought provoking. However, I believe unversalism was created by handpicking a few verses from the bible and not looking at the bible as a whole document. The bible makes it very clear that hell is a real place where real people will spend a real enetrnity. Just because it makes us uncomfortable doesn't make it untrue. Once again a well written hub that I enjoyed.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 5 years ago from United States Author

Planksandnails,

Thank you for your comment. You asked,

"From what I have read, I am assuming that you believe in hell, but your contention is the nature of the second death, which in your case is dispelling the eternal conscience torment (torture) to an eternal destruction (everlasting death or destruction of the soul) stance?

Also, are you trying to say that it is not an issue of whether hell exists, but what happens there?"

I believe, not in everlasting destruction of the souls of the wicked (annihilationism), but in the everlasting destruction of sin and wickedness from wicked souls. I believe that all souls will be purified and brought to repentance, at which time they will be led into fellowship with God through Jesus Christ (eternal life). I hope this answers your questions :-)


Bill Sheble 5 years ago

Here is something to strongly consider. Most pastors and Christians in the Evangelical World define Grace as "unmerited Favor". It is seen as a big one time thing that true Christians receive at the Judgement Seat of Christ and it is their pass into Heaven and their ticket out of Hell. Here is what Grace really is. I am alive right now and I exist from one moment to the next moment. That is what it means to exist, to move from one moment to another moment and so on and so forth. You are able to get from one moment to the next by everything that SUSTAINS you. What is it that is SUSTAINING you? Its the air you breath, the food you eat, your body, immune system, the ground you stand on, the Gravity holding you in place, your heart and other organs, the emotions of Hope, Love, Faith,Excitement,goals, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. There are infinite things that are sustaining your existence and CARRYING you from one moment to the next. You do none of these things. They are given to you by God and they are CARRYING you to the next moment. Since you do none of these things, and they are all given by God, THEY ARE ALL GRACE!! So it is Grace that carries you from one moment to the next. You could not exist without Grace because that is what ENABLES you to move from moment to moment. If you cannot exist without grace, then GRACELESS EXISTENCE IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! That is what the Christian perception of Hell is...GRACELESS EXISTENCE!! They believe that most people are destined to an eternal torturous graceless existence. The Bible teaches PUNISHMENT. Punishment is totally different than Graceless Existence. The difference is.....Punishment must also come with the GRACE to bear it!! HELLO! What A loving merciful idea. Even the worst of punishments or conditions MUST come with the SUSTAINING GRACE to bear or endure it. That comes from a loving God who LOVES his enemies and lets his rain and light fall on the Righteous and the Wicked. If people in Hell have sustaining Grace that means God still reaches them which means the idea of UTTER SEPERATION from God is also Non Biblical Traditional Belief Terror. Graceless Existence and Utter Seperation from God are 2 lies that the time has come to expose them and the psychological torment it inflicts on people.


Bill Sheble 5 years ago

A belief in Graceless Existence and Utter Seperation from God is a THEOLOGY that was adopted in Christian thinking centuries ago and has been carried on by TRADITION ever since. This THEOLOGY and TRADITION is then TRANSPOSED into how we interpret verses of Scripture and how we see The Bible and God as a whole. So when we read about such things as OUTER DARKNESS or The Lake of Fire in The Bible, it is accepted that these are states of UTTER SEPERATION from God and Torturous GRACELESSNESS. In the true biblical sense these are places of PUNISHMENT. Let me say that again...Places of PUNISHMENT. Punishment and Graceless Existence are two entirely different things. They are two entirely different ideas. They have two completely different NATURES, FACES, PERSONALITIES and SPIRITS. Punishment contains the elements of justice, fairness, suffering, pain, mercy, a lack of freedom, and sustaining graces. Graceless Existence contains the elements of terror, extreme pain, extreme suffering, no graces, no mercy, no reliefs, doom. It is an UNBEARABLE EXISTENCE that a person somehow has to bear solely on their own completely cut off from God and his sustaining Grace. Looking at all this, I will say that if anything is an ANTI CHRIST, it is this theology, tradition, and belief in GRACELESS EXISTENCE that we Christians have had for centuries. We need to believe in Gods AUTHORITY, JUSTICE (rewards and punishments) and UNIVERSAL SUSTAINING GRACE........That would be biblical!!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan

May I invite you to come over and read my hubs, as I have months of dialogue with Universalists.


Hell N0 5 years ago

You have months of being proven wrong Sex in The City Writer. That's why you delete all universalist comments now.


ruffridyer 5 years ago from Dayton, ohio

I like your hub and agree with some of it. I also do not believe in an eternal hell. Also a place of eternal burning with devils carrying pitchforks is nonsense. Hell is not inside the earth anymore than Heaven is floating on the clouds above.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I don't know how much you know about the church or what you have heard but The Church answered my questions about hell, damnation and how Heavenly Father will deal with his children in the world to come. I invite you to look into our doctrine if you feel so inclined.

This is a very informative hub.


Motown2Chitown 5 years ago

I was pointed to your hub today by fellow hubber graceomalley. I don't want to read through the comments because I've run into several of these folks here and there on HubPages and often find myself in vehement disagreement.

This hub is fascinating. I can see myself leaning in this very direction based on the God I've come to know. I think I will be looking into William Barclay myself.

You may count me among your followers moving forward, and rest assured that you will be prayed for.

I love it when my spiritual brain is stretched. :-)


Ronno 5 years ago

Read your Bible again-more carefully this time. You are in danger of deluding yourself!. Remember 1 Corinthians 1:18. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...

Either take God's Word at face value or reject it completely. There is no compromise


nan5157 5 years ago

Hi Japtaker. I understand where you're coming from, as I too, suffered terrible emotional distress--even nightmares, knowing about the reality of hell, learned in my church. My heart goes out to you in your terror.

But over time I realized something really important. Just because I couldn't handle that knowledge, didn't make it any less true. So, I studied it for myself and finally understood that hell wasn't created for human beings just because God was a big Meany, but for fallen angels/demon spirits cast ouf of heaven because of their rebellion. However, according to Scripture, it also becomes the final destination of those who choose to refuse the gift of salvation God offered mankind through the death of Jesus Christ.

To put it succinctly, God, in His mercy, actually went to Plan B after Adam sinned. By his sin Adam (to whom God had given a free will) consigned the entire human race to eternal death and separation from God in hell. But because God loved us so much, He had Jesus leave His position as a deity, so He could be born a human being, to take our place and our punishment, as the only perfect Lamb of God, who could take away the sins of the world. He did that to restore the broken relationship between God and man, caused by sin. (You can go to the Old Testament (Leviticus) and read about the sacrificial system of shedding the blood of spotless animals to cover the sins of the Children of Israel, which was a type/example of what Jesus would do in the future.)

Scripture says that when we confess our sins (I John 1:9), believe that He died to save us, and ask Him to transform us by His power, He actually makes His home in our hearts and gives us new life and a new outlook (2 Corinthians 5:17). He truly wants to be our best and closest friend, our greatest cheerleader, our confidante, our comforter, our source of wisdom and direction, and when we die, He will take us to to be with Him in heaven. He certainly has become my best friend, and in fact, I can't live without Him.

A book that brings home the truth regarding the reality of hell is called Twenty-three Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese. And while it's very frightening, the point is that God made a way of escape, and His name is Jesus.

In the end, it's all about the closeness He wants to have with those He cherishes, and that includes you. Blessings, nan5157


LeslieAdrienne profile image

LeslieAdrienne 5 years ago from Georgia

I am so sorry that in your Christian raising you never experienced the love of the Father. I am praying for you son. hen we receive the love of God for what it is, we then understand about Hell and the reason for it.

I am truly sorry that they tried to get you to receive Jesus as a fear tactic, and, I am thankful that you have recovered from the snare of the devil who tried to oppress you with the fear of Hell.

You were in a warfare from a very early age and you were not equipped to win it.

Debates, rationalizations based on personal experiences and all of the rest will not take away from the truth of Gods' Word.

Know one knows the depth of the pain you have experienced but the Lord is a healer, a deliverer and a lover of your soul.

Take a look at Andrew Wommack's website (http://www.awmi.net/) and the study on Spirit, Soul and Body. After seeing the distinctions in these three areas, you may understand the scriptures about Hell and who is going there a little better.

Much love in Jesus Name


5 years ago

It amaze me how you completely skipped Revelations 20. I would suggest you read on that, so you can learn about Hell's eternal existence.


Chris 5 years ago

The Bible is very clear that the wicked will be destroyed.


Clesker 5 years ago

I'm always interested in topics like this since I don't believe in an eternal hell either. There are many different beliefs regarding this, but the most popular is believing that all bad people go to a place of eternal torment. However, it's interesting that they believe in that since the Bible doesn't even teach that a place exists. "Hell" is a mistranslation from the original meaning of "pit".

Also, Jeremiah 7:31 says: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”

If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale, right?


5 years ago

@ Clesker

you are wrong. God did not command them to sacrifice their sons and daughters, nor sacrifice to idols.


Anon 5 years ago

J said:you are wrong. God did not command them to sacrifice their sons and daughters, nor sacrifice to idols.

If you read what Clesker wrote more closely, you will realize that he said as much!!


Anon 5 years ago

To all you who support an "eternal" torture chamber:

There is at least as much evidence in the bible for the salvation of all as there is against it!


Tim 4 years ago

To deny the existence of the lake of fire as a place of eternal torment is to call Jesus Christ a liar. He is God Almighty and He created all things, including the lake of fire. Jesus Himself said that those who names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. I would advise you to take His word for it before you find yourself learning first hand that it is a real place.


Anon 4 years ago

Tim, from your above statements it seems that you follow christ not out of true love, but to avoid being "tormented for eternity"!


Stef 4 years ago

I noticed you took my posts off... Thanks :). Im Catholic... There is a Hell but we believe that people choose to go there themselves. No one in Catholic religion ever sent anyone to hell ever. How the choice is made... I don't know... I don't want to know... I hope I never know.

Because my OCD mill pick and pick and pick. Gods not a puppet master... And we are not his experiment... That's why you can choose for yourself if you want to love him or not... He doesn't force you... The important thing is to love each other and be charitable and good to each other... If we do that even in little ways... Then are loving God. Christ is the salvation for the people who died and can see what's coming... They can call on him for one last and final chance for forgiveness. So the belief in Christ is more important then if there is a hell or not. I think its pridful to change beliefs to suit our needs... Or to sooth a mental disease. However, I think it's pridful to assume that hell can be interpreted at all because we don't know until we die... The best we can hope for in this life is not to give up on faith... That's what we should all pray for... If we all did that and thanked our father for life everyday... And for salvation he gave to us in the most painful way... If we did that, then I'm certain Our father would shut hell down. Now... Begs the question... Who chooses to be separated from God? People who think to much and by doing so put themselves on the same level as the almightily... So the Proud, people who do true evil and do not see the harm in what they have done, so the mentally insane, people who wouldn't lift a finger to help others because they can't be bothered, so the lazy... People who refuse to listen and believe, the ignorant... And so on.

But if you have Christ... That's the important part... To believe in Christ. If one can truly believe, and one day I hope to with all my heart I will, if you truly believe... How could you ever chose to be separated from God? It's not possible.

So instead of fearing hell work on loving God back for everything he's given us... Including his own son.

I think my extreme fear of hell and sinning against the spirit has more to do with not wanting to submit to God's will. Or even exsersizing our own free will in the most unhealthy way ever... It's basically like flipping God our father off. Because the Spirit is literally what god has put in us that is him our Father. He puts his own goodness in us. Catholics also believe that you can't sin against the spirit really... And sine Jesus turned to Peter and said "go start my church", which became the Roman Catholic Church... I would like to propose that perhaps we are right on this one. See my Catholic priests said must have OCD or Scrupilosity because it's impossible to sin against the spirit and still believe that Christ is the Saviour, or that God is our Father or be worried that we sinned at all... The simple agony of worry that you sinned is proof enough that you don't or can't think the Christ is not the son of God. The only time it actually becomes a sin is if you attach yourself to the sin and make yourself ill over it... But even then RCC believe that the sin is you punishing and judging yourself, which we are not allowed to do. The only people who actually sin against the spirit are those who mock Christ by calling him the devil, knowing he is Gods son 100% and just don't give a crap, and would never ask for forgiveness because they literally hate God... And they literally choose to be mieternity for eternity. This hurts God so much... The pain is unbearable. Its like if you have a child and the child hates you, and tells you, and means it... And then goes off to show you how much he hates you, by doing many horrific things. The parent doesn't stop loving the child, but the parent becomes stricken with grief because there is literally nothing they can do to make that child love them or feel bad for the injury he has caused to the world. It's a supreme act of ungratefulness in the most hateful way ever... That's what Christ means about sinning against the spirit.

Unless you are a totally evil person who literally worships Satan, knowingly and willingly... And you are so spoiled that you just thinks it's all for you and no one else matters, DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE SPIRIT??? Probably not. Your most likely OCD and panict about pissing God off because you can see a lot more clause in yourself and the world then the average person, or your nuts and don't realize what your saying, or Satan tried to hoodwink you... And is just trying to ruin your day, month, year(s)... Or your spoiled and you don't want to bend to Gods will because.... Or maybe all of them together... But the important thing is... And here is the kicker... Go and ask a CATHOLIC PRIEST for forgiveness... He will forgive you if you ask!!!! And you will feel better after... I know, becaue I've don't this, and it's true!! And I'm going to go again, because I did it again because I'm a giant dooche who is pms'ing, OCD and attached myself to an idiot thought and made myself feel ill because of that.... That's why Jesus is sad right now... As your faith increase that impulse will decrease... So please pray for me that my faith increases. :). Jesus is perfect, God is perfect... We are the nobs who are not perfect.

Peace be with you all... Pray to keep the faith :)


Anon 4 years ago

Choose Choose Chooose........We can "choose" to love God or not, We "choose" to go to hell.... so how come we can't "choose" whether we even wanted to exist in the first place???


Amy 4 years ago

I believe that "hell" is the absence of God. God is good. Any sinner who rejects the gift of cleansing cannot enter into His presence. Therefore, "hell," whether it exists as a place or is nonexistence itself, is a necessary component in the functioning of this universe.

Does it matter what we do if we all end up in the same place sooner or later? Also, if God could truly do WHATEVER He wanted, then he wouldn't have to punish Jesus just so we could dwell with Him. We could just spend a few eons in remedial hell on our way to heaven.

God CANNOT sin. Even His omnipotent self is not sovereign. For example, we humans are free agents. He does not control us. People can reject Him, and do so all too often. Our free will is the reason that evil is allowed to exist.

My point is that Christian Universalism is inconsistent wiith some of the most basic principles of Christianity.

I believe in special revelation, including, but not limited to, prayer, discussion, and the (possibly errant) manuscripts of God's word.


Anon 4 years ago

Amy quotes:"Even His (God's?) omnipotent self is not sovereign. For example, we humans are free agents. He does not control us......"

WRONG!! There are quite a few scriptures in the bible that state otherwise!


Anon 4 years ago

To all you "eternal hellers"....it's all about FEAR, isn't it? NO genuine love involved at all...only FEAR...turn or BURN!!!


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

There is documented cases of Christian monasteries who's monks took in orphans then dashed their bodies against the cliffs because they were afraid these children and young adults would burn in hell one day. It would almost seem logical if hell were real. Your theology is twisted. When the disciples asked Jesus should we cause fire to rain from heaven to destroy a city that would not believe Jesus rebuked them and yet you ignore these scriptures and the unfailing love of Jesus you have exchanged the good news of the gospel for a lie.


Steve 4 years ago

Cannot have cake and eat it too. Matthew 25:46 sums up the judgment on the “sheep and goats” with the words. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The same word aionion (eternal) is used to describe the punishment of the wicked and the blessing of the righteous. Whatever we say about the duration of “eternal” life for believers must be said about “eternal” punishment for unbelievers. Since “life” for believers is everlasting (John 10:28), so must be the punishment for unbelievers.

In a second text, Revelation 20:10, John describes those in the “lake of fire” being "tormented day and night forever and ever." The expression day and night is used in Revelation to express the concept of “forever.” The lake of fire is described in Revelation 19:20 as a place that "burns with brimstone." In the saddest verse in the Bible, John declares that anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15)


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

To rightly divide the word you need to understand the original translation and how much of the bible has been assumed to be literal. No original text had the expression "forever and ever". God baptized with fire and yet it's not a literal fire but all of a sudden the lake of fire is literal. Brimstone is used as a cleansing agent. The fearful also have their part in the lake of fire and I know a lot of fearful Christians so I guess they burn forever and ever as well huh?

It would take me a week to explain Revelation and the Lake of Fire. So I will direct you to this Lake of Fire series.

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

As far as the issue of eternal and "forever and ever" I again can direct you to another article that proves God love for All MEN. And the misinterpretation of the words like forever and ever and everlasting.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_...

I am sorry for the links but they explain it so much better than I can and it would take much more than a few comments on a blog to clear up this misconception of eternal punishment.


anonymous 4 years ago

What about the part of Scripture, where Jesus was on the cross and when He took on the sins of the world and said "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?". To me, this shows it is possible to be separated from God; (which in my opinion would be hell whether you believe in eternal torment or annihilation). Also, what about the Scripture that says "your sins have separated you from God" in Isaiah? That seems to back up the idea that you can be separated / away from God by your sin.

What about the Scripture Hebrews 9:27 that says "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" If after death comes judgement it doesn't seem like there is much room for a person to repent after death.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

I can answer the above concerns about judgement and when Jesus was on the cross but I did not start this blog and don't want to dominate the conversation. Perhaps japtaker wants to answer this one himself. If not I will put my two cents in.


Ruffle Muncher 4 years ago

Twilight Lawns said: "God, … is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe". Notice here, it says he is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe". please don't disappoint me by having the adenrum "in Jesus". I love the concept of "all who believe".

You missed the word "ESPECIALLY," it still strongly proves that salvation is for all, especially to those who believe in Jesus because ever since they know that salvation has a place for them because they believe in Jesus.

It's just like saying that "Education is for all, especially to those who love to learn."


japtaker profile image

japtaker 4 years ago from United States Author

AEQUANIMITAS, unfortunately, I simply do not have the time to reply to the comments I get, so dominate the conversation as much as you'd like! :-)


ellemy 4 years ago

Hello Japtaker!

The Lord also showed me this wonderful truth some years ago. Thank you for an excellent post! May the Lord use it mightily to bring other brothers and sisters out from under the grip of lies that have been perpetuated in mainstream Christianity for over 1500 years. I believe this is part of the strong delusion that He said He would send upon the Church. Yet everything He does is intended for our good! Even as you shared what you went through brought you to a better ending.

No one who really loves the Lord can honestly believe in their deepest heart that a God who IS love and whose mercy endures forever would literally torment and torture 90-95% of His creation throughout eternity. Who can accept and perpetuate a doctrine except those who have made their god like to their own carnal mind? It reminds me of those pharisees who yelled Crucify Him! God came to His own and they KNEW HIM NOT!

It is sad that most Christians are deceived .... may this WORD to them cause their hearts to desire truth at any and all costs, whether that means laying down "orthodox" doctrines that were founded by very carnal men who were fighting for positions and authority in the church. It is a sad commentary to read what happened in these councils and how many were literally murdered! And they thought they were doing God a favor.

Too many today don't understand that Jesus said His words are SPIRIT and LIFE. The scriptures must be spiritually discerned not read like a common textbook. Jesus promised us that the Holy Spirit would lead us into ALL truth. Most Christians don't study the scriptures. Most don't study to find out if what they are being taught is True! For me it has been a matter of coming before the Lord and praying for discernment to know lies from truth and good from evil. In all humility, we must let Him unteach us and teach us!

He is faithful. WE must desire to know truth at all costs, laying aside our preconceived notions, pride, prejudices and sacred cows. He alone is the GOOD SHEPHERD and will not lead us astray if we come to Him in sincerity. If we come to Him with our mind made up to prove our doctrine, then His book is shut up to us and that is all we will have,,,,our doctrines and not His.

Jehovah says:

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

How many commenting against this hub have come before the Lord in all meekness and sincerity desiring in their heart to know the truth and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH? IF so, then His word will be like a fire burning and melting the filthiness of flesh and spirit away and like a rock breaking a hardened heart into pieces. It washes, cleanses and purifies with FIRE to OUR CARNAL MINDS and BLOWS TO OUR SELFISH EGOS. This is the process of the second death in dying to our fleshly life (PSUCHE: Soul). When He is finished, we will be like Him, either through the process of this age or the lake of fire. Jesus is the LAKE of FIRE, the Refiner's fire, the consuming fire, the fiery law, the burning bush...

Hell id not s fire as uou have been told. It is simply the grave (Sheol, Hades) where we sleep, without consciousness until the resurrection. The dead know nothing or have no memory. That's in the scripture. Our spirit only is what returns to the Lord upon physical death. The bible refers to this many times! How can anyone be in hell now (as many Christians believe) if there has not been any white throne judgment? Think about these things!

How many believe Jesus was a literal lamb? Or a Literal piece of bread? Or a literal door? Or a literal springing well? OR His blood is literal wine that we drink? Do we Literally eat His body? Or are we literally washed in his blood? Are you a literal sheep or literal goat or tare or stalk of wheat? Does the earth Have four corners? Are Jesus' feet literally flaming brass? Does He literally have a two-edged sword coming out of His mouth? Is flesh grass? Are you beginning to see the picture yet? Is the Lake of fire literal? Of course not. It is a metaphor for a spiritual truth. His fire always purges, purifies and restores spirit, burning away the chaff of our fleshly life. His word is imparted over and over again in symbols and metaphors. One must learn to discern these truths and not be wise in their own conceits. First the spiritual, then the natural (type or shadow), then the spiritual truth. Jehovah always establishes a double witness according to His Law and scripture will interpret scriptural. The Law foreshadowed the spiritual.He writes His Law into our hearts....How? By His SPIRIT.

This sums up the purpose of God in His infinite Love and Wisdom:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY the WORKS of the devil.

All works of the devil (SIN) will be destroyed either through our fiery trials in this age or the Lake of Fire in the ages to come. Then Christ will be ALL IN ALL. Think about what that means. Not one will be lost.

May He lead us into ALL truth.

Blessings In Him


in2caffeine 4 years ago

Thanks for posting this article. Really great points to think about.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

Thanks for posting the article. It is a great concept, but I am afraid it is not Scripture-ally sound.

Take Matthew as just one example:

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.” ... “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matthew 25:31-36, 40-43, 45-46 NRSV)"

God calls all, everyone to repentance, but if you choose to not repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit - you will end up at the place that was prepared for Satan and the Angels that followed Satan.

I add that the Holy Scriptures are more than just 'spiritual wisdom', its the Word of God and without error.

What I would suggest to you, is pray that you repent everyday and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Without we are not heirs to Christ, we cannot call God our Abba. Without it, you will fear death and hell and will not have to find 'work arounds' to convince yourself that there is no eternal Hell.

You don't have to believe in an eternal Hell to spend it there.

God Bless


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

I would also add that if there were no eternal Hell then Satan and all his angels will also be forgiven and taken into heaven. Awesome, makes you wonder why he spends his entire time trying to get people away from God and do evil instead of good. I mean if in the end we are all going to heaven anyway, seems like a moot point. Unless of course you don't beleive in satan or evil either..in which case you are really tearing apart the Word of God.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

I must disagree with you calltopreach.

First of all if you rip Mathew out of context and if you were to just listen to those words that Jesus said you would think that anyone who clothed or fed or visited a Christian in jail would escape the "eternal torment" you so dearly cling to. Even an atheist could visit his Christian friend in jail and according to those versus escape hell. You everlasting or eternal punishment is a poor translation as well as "Eternity" is not a Hebrew word, neither is it Greek, nor English. Then why is it found in your King James Bible? Who put it there and from where did it come?

Our [now] English words "eternal" and "eternity" come from the Latin word aevum. Dictionaries define this word as meaning, "lifetime, life, age, mankind living at a particular time." From aevum comes aeviternus? and the adjective aeternus which is our English word eternal. The doctrine of "everlasting punishment" is based on this LATIN word borrowed from the CATHOLIC Vulgate Bible. You never knew your doctrine was Catholic did you?

As far as Satan yes he does exist and who created him? By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARM'S LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong’s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do: and we know what Satan does. So if Eternal is really translated as an age or a time and the real meaning of punishment is chastisement or judgement this "eternal punishment" is really and age of judgement and purification through fire. Who does not have to endure this? Those who were righteous they go into immediate eternal life they don't have to endure the weeping and gnashing of teeth of judgement in the lake of fire they are already cleansed. The "moot point" of going to heaven is not moot at all since the lake of fire judgement is not pleasant at all and should be avoided. If God did indeed created a crooked serpent to serve a purpose who are you to tell God not to redeem him or all things for that matter in the lake of fire. Remember it is written Satan has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the glorious light of the gospel of Jesus Christ. A great way to blind people is to tell them about God who commands us to love our enemies and then goes and throws them into some hell hole to torture them for all eternity not practicing what he preaches but wants to save you. Satan blinds eyes by deceiving Christians into telling the unsaved they are going to burn forever in some pit with all their friends a site that would make Hitler proud.That is not the glorious news of the gospel the GLORIOUS news is

GOD WILLS TO SAVE ALL MANKIND

GOD WILL PERFORM ALL HIS WILL


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

you wrote "Remember it is written Satan has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the glorious light of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

and

"Satan blinds eyes by deceiving Christians into telling the unsaved they are going to burn forever in some pit with all their friends a site that would make Hitler proud."

But what would be the purpose of this be if we all go to Heaven anyway? That wouldn't make sense if what you say is true, no one would have to pick up their cross daily and follow him - Die to themselves and live for Christ. We could all eat, drink and be marry knowing that in the end we are all going to Heaven.

Satan would be just wasting his time trying to blind us so what if we are blinded - we are still going to heaven..what's 80+ years of blindness if we are promised eternity of happiness?


Sold Out to Jesus profile image

Sold Out to Jesus 4 years ago from Indiana

It was Gods will to make salvation available to us by a more perfect sacrifice, but He gave us our own will. We have a choice in this body to serve Him or not. Many are called, but few are chosen. We all suffer death because of one mans act of disobedience, but Jesus came as the second Adam to suffer death by obdeince for us. Now we must be obedient to God through salvation and endure till the end overcoming as He did. This is how we follow Him to the cross. Just like growing up from babes to adulthood, we are either rewarded for our obdeince or punished by our disobedience. Our actions or lack of actions will be judged. God bless.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

You are missing the point CalledToPreach. God formed the crooked serpent for a purpose he has used him through the bible. Look at Paul who handed over 2 disciples to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. They were taught a lesson and punished by who?? Satan so he does serve a purpose and he is a crooked serpent and as Jesus said the he is a liar he only can blind people because the truth is not in him. You are assuming he blinds people to send them to hell? Is there not a host of other reasons? Like he just can't help himself he was created that way? He is a liar so he cannot help himself he's going to lie through people he would never lead people to Christ. He obviously lied to Adam to cause misery and yet is Adam in hell? NO! The Lord God made him clothes after he committed one of the biggest crimes against God ever. Really? Adam rebels and The Lord God makes him clothes so he can brave the judgement laid upon him? Wow sounds like The Lord God loved him even after he did this terrible thing. No mention of Adam going to hell not one scripture no mention of Cain going to hell either and yet Able's blood screamed for justice from the ground. The wages of sin are death and yet if the wages of sin were some torture chamber in hell don't you think Paul would have said the wages of sin are a pit with fire where you burn for ever and ever? Don't you think he would have cared enough to tell us that? The purpose of picking up your cross and following Jesus is the great commission (discipleship)so that your treasure is stored in heaven it's not the basis of salvation. The apostle Paul strives to claim the prize which is Jesus himself. You die to yourself to live for Christ so you can be a part of the kingdom of heaven now. You escape the second death if you die now to your own desires. Those that don't die to themselves must go through the second death so there is plenty motivation here without the threat of hell. Most Christians do eat, drink and be marry knowing they are going to heaven they never take on the great commission and deny themselves and pick up the their cross they are carnal but doing those things are not a basis for salvation. You are confusing discipleship with salvation. Jesus said he that believe in me shall have life not he who follows me every day and denies himself has life. In fact Jesus warned people who want to be his disciples to count the cost like a King who would go to war and make sure you have what it takes to obtain victory it's not for everyone but salvation is for everyone. Treasure in heaven is the reward, ruling with Jesus is the reward that's what motivates people to pick up his cross every day and deny themselves not the threat of a burning concentration camp.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

You said: "You are missing the point CalledToPreach. God formed the crooked serpent for a purpose he has used him through the bible. Look at Paul who handed over 2 disciples to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. They were taught a lesson and punished by who?? Satan so he does serve a purpose and he is a crooked serpent and as Jesus said the he is a liar he only can blind people because the truth is not in him. "

I agree God does use satan through scripture, but this is to get that person He is dealing with from one point to another. Job being a great example.

You said: "You are assuming he blinds people to send them to hell? Is there not a host of other reasons? Like he just can't help himself he was created that way? He is a liar so he cannot help himself he's going to lie through people he would never lead people to Christ. He obviously lied to Adam to cause misery and yet is Adam in hell? NO!"

Fair enough, so you are the one missing MY point dude. What purpose would this serve for satan to blind us and keep us from following Jesus..if in the end we are all just going to heaven anyway. I don't see the point in what satan is doing.

You said: "The wages of sin are death and yet if the wages of sin were some torture chamber in hell don't you think Paul would have said the wages of sin are a pit with fire where you burn for ever and ever?"

Here you are missing what the Scripture means, death is a total seperation from God. No love, No mercy everlasting seperation from God. This is what Death brings, so the wages of sin are death, seperation from God.

This is why Adam had to leave the garden. God said if they ate the fruit, they would die, and they did die. Death reigns over the body - we no longer live hundreds of years. We were seperated from God due to sin until Christ died.

This brings me to another point. There would be no need for Christ to die and suffer if we were all going to go to heaven anyway. He died to SAVE us..from what? From everlasting seperation from God. He died to save us and free us from the sin Adam brought on by disobedience.

You said: " Most Christians do eat, drink and be marry knowing they are going to heaven they never take on the great commission and deny themselves and pick up the their cross they are carnal but doing those things are not a basis for salvation"

Im sorry those are not truly Repentant, Christ following people. To follow Christ you must deny yourself, which means I can no longer watch the tv shows I want, I can no longer to bar hopping and hang with friends that do sinful things. When we are called by Jesus to follow Him - we are called to come and DIE.

Paul said in Galatians: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

This is how we must live to truly follow Christ. If we say we follow Christ but follow OUR fleshly will and not His will, we are not true followers.

Thank you for the dialog on this. God bless


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Well "dude" you interpretation of dying or death and separation of God is not my definition nor is it the bibles. The wages of sin are death Adam died there was never any caveat that he would also go to a pagan hell you so fiercely defend. Adam rebelled against God and committed the worst sin in the bible and he didn't go to hell and you gloss over that. He died physically because he didn't eat from the tree of life and he disobeyed God but don't you think the original sin the thing that started it all would deserve hell if your doctrine was correct? For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Really??? If they are in a hell hole burning somewhere how can the dead not know anything? Do they know they are totally separated from God? No! And if it was a total separation how could a soul or anything for that matter without God still carry on living in some manner? How can that be if the dead know nothing? They don't even know they are separated. And your point that There would be no need for Christ to die and suffer if we were all going to go to heaven anyway is not accurate. I said BECAUSE Christ died for us we are all going to heaven. He came to take away the sins of the world. Wait he took away the sins for some Christians? NO THE WORLD!!!! The World is a big place my friend that's a lot of sin!!!! Your "everlasting separation" theory is just wrong since I have never seen the words everlasting separation from God in the bible and I already pointed out the meaning of everlasting translated in the bible is inaccurate. God solved Adam's failure he solved that problem by reconciling us to him through Christ that's why he died. I already wrote that Satan is a liar so his the truth is not him so if he influences people he blinds them with his lies and they cannot see the glorious gospel because it's truth his "purpose" which you even established is to punish people and deceive people and God allows that deception until the great day of judgement. Your most grievous error is not dividing discipleship from salvation. Salvation is not works and yet you insist you must give up TV shows and bars to be truly saved WRONG!!! A saved Christian has a choice they can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit. The benefits are far and wide for walking in the Spirit and I have the utmost respect for those that have totally denied all aspects of the flesh to follow Christ but it's not a basis for salvation or eternal life. You are saved if you believe in Jesus Christ even Jesus said he that believeth in me shall have eternal life you are adding all kinds of conditions that most Christians add these days. This is why Christians are so messed up they think they are saved one day and the next they sin and think they lost it or don't have what it takes to be a disciple and think that's it I'm going to hell. The Apostle Paul even said that he crucified the flesh lest he be a castaway and not be counted worthy to preach the Gospel. So if Paul was didn't crucify the flesh would he go to hell? This is nonsense. I cannot convince you otherwise so I encourage you to seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit on this. If you want to believe and tell others of a Pagan hell, if you refuse to believe that God took away the sins of the world and only saves a few people who are strong Christians while the others are burned forever and ever you insult the God's saving power through his son. You deny the dead know nothing you ignore the fact God never sent Adam to hell you ignore the wages of sin are death adding all kinds of other details. And you deny God's love and command to love your enemies when you believe God takes his enemies and throws them in some pond to burn for ever and ever (not really a loving act in my book). You don't believe me and I understand because you are not "programmed" to since 90% of Evangelical Christians have believed this way for 400 years and yet the early church never preached hell they preached the Good News which was the lamb of God took away the sins of WORLD!!! Did Capernaum go to hell? No the city still stands to this day but Jesus said "And you, Capernaum, which art exalted into heaven, shall be brought down to hell." Was it a literal hell? NO but Christians use the word hell and define it as a Pagan place of torment. When one of Jesus disciples asked if they should bring fire from heaven and destroy a city because they refused to believe didn't Jesus REBUKE him? But you want to cling onto these doctrines of Hell and limited salvation so it's futile. I will pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you and truly set you free. I would also encourage you to do some searching on the web in regards to the true translations of the bible. If you are using the text in most bibles today you need to research the translations on the internet as many have taken liberties with the Word especially when it come to the word hell, the grave, judgement, punishment and you have bypassed the total saving power of Christ crucified.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

Wow..I sure wish you'd learn what a paragraph was..There is so much here, im picking and choosing what to reply on, its repetitive.

you said: "Salvation is not works and yet you insist you must give up TV shows and bars to be truly saved WRONG!!! A saved Christian has a choice they can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit. The benefits are far and wide for walking in the Spirit and I have the utmost respect for those that have totally denied all aspects of the flesh to follow Christ but it's not a basis for salvation or eternal life."

Paul to the Romans 8 says this: "4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

You mention its wrong that we don't have to give up things (i.e tv or whatnot) to be saved. To some degree if you are living in the flesh you are carnal. If you are carnal you will have that attitude that you don't have to change to be saved. If you live in the flesh, you CANNOT please God.

So according to your 'theory' it is still ok to not please God because we are going to heaven anyway. Do you know the true definition of Repent? Do you understand what sin is and what it does to your soul and relationship with Christ? You do and must change your life and live solely to Him in order to be truly saved. This is what 'Picking up your cross and follow me' means, this is what being 'Crucified with Christ' is all about. If you call yourself a follower of Him but you go to clubs getting drunk and picking up chicks you are a liar and not in Christ.

Didn't Jesus say about Judas: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24), but if it was just temporary why would it be better for him to not be born?

If he was just going to go to heaven anyway, why would Jesus say this?

I appreciate the prayers, but I have already been Baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues and I am also used in the gifts. God has already revealed more than you could provide for me here.

See, you haven't answered my question at all about - what sense would it make for Satan to be prowling around the earth seeking the ruin of souls - if he would not really ruin a soul since we all go to heaven?

You only said: "I already wrote that Satan is a liar so his the truth is not him so if he influences people he blinds them with his lies and they cannot see the glorious gospel because it's truth his "purpose" which you even established is to punish people and deceive people and God allows that deception until the great day of judgement. Your most grievous error is not dividing discipleship from salvation."

So, according to you, his 'purpose' is to blind us from this glorious gospel our entire life..so that when we die and the truth is revealed; Satan is going to jump out and go 'PSYCH!! Just kiddin ya!' - is that what your telling me?

We know satan is a liar, he is lying to you so that you will deny God and be put in the same place he is going to go on judgement day...according to Scriptures..every single translation of this scripture I have read.

You also seem to forget that Jesus Himself said that in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you must be born of Water and Spirit - Baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But yet you seem to think that just by Him dying on the Cross, EVERYONE is saved..and that is contrary to what Christ said and taught, contrary to what His Apostles said and taught.

If what you said was true, the Apostles would of never had to go preaching to the world, baptizing them in the Name of Jesus and having the Holy Ghost fall upon them. If what you say is true, the Bible should stop at the end of John because Acts and the letters to the Churches doesn't really matter, since we all go to heaven anyway.

This is the discipleship you speak of. Jesus wanted a discipleship. He commanded the Apostles to go preach, baptize and cast out demons in His Name.

this was AFTER He died. So if we were already all going to heaven at that point, their ministry was in vain.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

I would simply like to post my two cents on the subject of eternal/everlasting. You used Latin words and definitions, and even the Hebrew and Greek ones. However, let's review a few scriptures on the flip-side of hell, okay?

Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

According to my Strongs, the word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.

The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.

What you MUST consider, regarding olam, aionios and even aion is, if you look up everlasting (olam) God/King and eternal (aionios) God, you CANNOT claim that God is age-existant, which implies an end or period of time (Gen 21:33; Isa 40:28; Jer 10:10; Rom 16:26)

•"This is My name for ever [olam]" Ex 3:15

•"Yehovah is everlasting [olam] strength" Isa 26:4

•"The Word of our God stands for ever [olam]" Isa 40:8

•"Eternal [aionios] house in heaven" 2 Cor 5:1

•"He became the source of eternal [aionios] salvation" Heb 5:9

•"Christ, Who through the eternal [aionios] Spirit" Heb 9:14

•"the blood of the everlasting [aionion] covenant" Heb 13:20

•"God...has called us into His eternal [aionion] glory" 1 Pet 5:10

•"into the everlasting [aionios] kingdom of our Lord" 2 Pet 1:11

•"Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Mat 6:13

•"The Father is blessed for evermore [aion]" 2 Cor 11:31

•"According to His eternal [aion] purpose" Eph 3:11

•"Now to the King eternal [aion]... be honor and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" 1 Tim 1:17

•"Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Heb 1:8

It sounds like you believe in an everlasting, eternal God and life, right? But, you don't believe hell, as stated in the Word is everlasting and eternal. You can't have one Truth without the other. Think on these things.


DT 4 years ago

@JudahsDaughter

Daniel 12:2 indicates that the victims will be HELD in everlasting contempt. Kind of like how you would look upon a fallen warrior (who is dead BTW).

Matt. 25:46 needs a definition. Punishment is described as a DEPRAVATION of something you once held PRIVELEGE to (in this case life). By all means, Annihilation IS eternal punishment.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Ok Calledtopreach

You will refuse to believe God saves once and for all and the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer you are still stuck on works and doing good things to please God as a basis for salvation so if you believe salvation is based on performance then we can't agree. Yes the carnal mind is enmity against God but it's not a basis of salvation. You forget your righteousness is like filthy rags.They that are in the flesh cannot please God that's very true but again you are not losing your salvation if you are in the flesh. We disagree about this even though God said we are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a free gift no exceptions no strings attached but your carnal mind can't understand this. I too was baptized in the Spirit I too talk in tongues but I too was also deceived by people like you who preach you can lose your salvation by not pleasing God. I really feel sorry for you couple that preaching with the threat of hellfire and losing the Holy Spirit if you walk in the flesh and you have the same old scare junk religion which has raped the minds of people for years.

You seem more anxious in finding out what Satan's purposes are versus why Adam didn't go to hell and why hell does not jive with Gods commanding us to love our enemies. You are asking me why Satan is motivated to blind the eyes of man? You know he hates God so of course he would blind our eyes but you assume it's so they will go to hell. How about so man does not have life more abundantly now? Do you have Satan's mind? I sure don't and I don't care what all his purposes are. The basis of this discussion was is there a hell and your quoting of the eternal punishment by Jesus. I defined eternal you just don't get it.

You mentioned Jesus saying you must be born of water and Spirit which is true in fact John the Baptist said I baptize you with water but one coming will baptize you in fire but did Jesus actually baptize people with fire? No so why should the lake of fire be a literal fire? We are baptized in fire to burn away and cleanse us of our sin in fact the use of the word fire is the same fire used when describing the lake of fire. Did not Jesus say right before he died say it is finished?

The Apostles went on preaching and baptizing for people to be saved now in this life that they might have life and have it more abundantly. Casting out demons is a waste of time because everyone will get saved? I think the one with the demon might disagree if they suffer all the days of their life here on earth. It doesn't mean others will NOT be saved and receive the Holy Spirit on judgement day you assume way to much.

Didn't Jesus say about Judas: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24), but if it was just temporary why would it be better for him to not be born? Very good point in fact that was just brought up on a very intelligent article about how this has been mistranslated in fact there is more of the verse left out of the bible. The correct translations are ouay-Rheims Bibles:

"It were better for him, if that man had not been born."

Whycliffe:

"It were good to him, if that man had not been born."

Lexham English Bible:

"[It would be] better for him if that man had not been born."

Young's Literal Translation:

"...good were it to him if that man had not been born."

The scriptures were saying better for Jesus this man not be born. If you want to delve deeper in this you can read it here:

http://bible-truths.com/JudasNotBorn.htm

All of Paul's apostles abandoned him towards the end of his ministry because they just could not hack it anymore it was too tough for them to walk in the Spirit did they go to hell as well? Did the Holy Spirit leave them? Like I stated earlier we can't see eye to eye so I wish you luck in your quest for salvation by pleasing God and I feel sorry for those you will preach the partial good news to. As soon as they accept the free gift of salvation they will realize it's not free at all by your account. If you were ever truly baptized in the Holy Spirit you would know God's true nature which is infinite mercy, forgiveness and unconditional love. It's the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

We can go around and around but it's exhausting when you cannot see Gods perfect plan for salvation of the World and deny his saving power of all men and the belief of some hell hole God torments people in. Let's just agree to disagree you are not open to the truth about the scriptures so I pray you will someday understand and we can leave it at that. I will leave you with one more bible verse you should meditate on.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living

God, Who is the Saviour of all men, ESPECIALLY of those that believe" - I Tim. 4:10.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Judah's Daughter if you want to read about eternity and it's translations and how there really was no word for eternity and how aion can mean a life a period of time but then also mean Life force etc. I suggest you look at this exhaustive covering of the subject as I do not have the time or energy to explain it here.

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

My question is, do you believe in eternal life ~ everlasting life, and that God is eternal and everlasting? Yes or no would do just fine.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Yes Judah I do but the bible never mentions it you didn't pose that question earlier. You wrote paragraph after paragraph defending the use of eternity in the bible. My point was eternity is not even something written in the bible. Aion. aionion,aionios and olam were used to describe times in the bible not eternity.

If I said it would take me ages to win the lottery does that mean eternity? No at some point I would win but it does mean a period of time. I can also say God has been around for ages and it could be defined as even longer period of time even from the beginning and yet I used the same word.

If your definitions of the eternity in the bible were true for example Jude7 would mean eternity as the link I posted points out.

4. Jude 7—"Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The Greek reads: "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian." Well just how long does this "eonian/aionios fire last? Is it really "eternal" as the Authorized Version and you, contend?

A. There is NO FIRE burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere, let along in the vicinity of these ancient cities. The best archaeologists can discern, Sodom is located at the bottom of what is now a sea.

So it was a time of fire until judgement was completed in Sodom.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

We can definitely agree to disagree on this subject, I am fine with that. But to clear up some points - I am not a preacher that goes around preaching hell fire and damnation. I believe that the only time you will loose your Holy Spirit, if you truly received it (you being general term not you AEQUANIMITAS43), is if you are given up to a reprobate mind. Which according to scriptures can happen if you continue to live in sin and loose faith in Christ.

I do believe in God's infinite Mercy and Faithfulness to us, even when I don't deserve it I know that I am forgiven when I repent and ask for forgiveness. He is good all the time and His mercy is endless.

I keep asking about the purpose of satan because I am trying to understand that if he isn't going to go into a pit of fire in the end, it seems like a big trick for him to be roaming the earth seeking to ruin souls, which is scriptural. You say no one will go to hell - but how is a soul ruined if we all go to heaven? What I am saying is that his 'purpose' doesn't make sense. You are right, he hates God and he hates us. So according to what you are saying, even though he hates God. even though he was banished from Heaven due to Pride, in the end he will be in Heaven as well as all those that followed him and denied him.

Also want to point out I am not saying you are saved by Works. However, faith without works is dead and availeth nothing. Baptism, I assume is what you were referring too, is not a work. But commanded by Jesus - He who believes and is baptized is saved. The Apostles understood everything that was taught to them and it all started in Jerusalem. That is when the Great Commission was carried out starting with what Peter said in Acts 2:38. This is how all the Churches that the Letters were written too started out, and this is how it is to be done even today.

The works we do will be tried as with fire. These works should not be our own works but of the Spirit. We must dedicate time in prayer, fasting and the Word in order to really hear the voice of God and His Holy Spirit, in which we will know the works God wants us to do. This is all according to Scripture.

So am I saying that if you do not perform these 'works' that you are not saved? No I am not. Scripture tells us that these works will be tried and if they burn up you will suffer loss but still be saved.

However, what I am saying is that you can loose your salvation by 1) Never receiving it at all by not having faith in Christ and not receiving His Holy Spirit (which makes us joint heirs with Christ). 2) continuing to live in sin and not truly being repentant and being given up to a reprobate mind. God continuously calls us and longs for us, even when we sin, He calls us to repent and turn away from the things we are doing. However, if we turn away from Him and do not live for Him we can be given up to a reprobate mind and be damned.

Paul tells us to be careful and recognize the goodness and severity of God. We were graphed into the Olive Tree of God, ONLY because the Jews were disobedient. We are not the natural branch, but was graphed in due to their unfaithfulness and unbelief. Paul tells us that if God cut off the natural branch due to disobedience and unbelief, we should be very careful because how much more quickly will he cut you off, who is NOT a natural branch.

So what happens when we get cut off? What happens when we are left to a reprobate mind? This, I believe is where we are in disagreement on.

I appreciate the dialog on this, and if I wasn't open to your input I wouldn't of given it this much time and thought. However, in dialoging one must accept questions about said beliefs instead of just a 'yes I agree'.

God bless.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Ok

Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?

Does Paul say they are reprobates? No he says perhaps. Can't Paul insinuate here that he might be addressing people here in the church who never knew Jesus? Yes. If the scripture said You are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit but there is always the possibility you can be a reprobate in which case I will leave you and you are dammed I would believe your line of thought.

Also you neglect the other scriptures about the Jews being cut off the tree. Read on friend it also states they will once again be grafted in.

Was the thief who was promised salvation while being crucified from Christ baptized? No and yet he went to heaven.

God himself created the crooked serpent (Satan) so did he not create evil? Is he responsible for the serpent? Can he not transform it after it's purpose is totally realized? Do not the people of the world in revelation marvel how puny he is and are they not surprised that this puny snake deceived the nations? My point is it's not a stretch to think he will redeem all even a puny snake I think you hold Satan in a higher regard then is actually realized. I hope you don't believe his name is Lucifer or that there was a great rebellion in heaven those myths might be clouding your judgement (please please please don't make me explain all about Lucifer and the rebellion myth my typing hands are exhausted). I have enjoyed the dialog. I also want to note I thought just like you for many years. I realized that the preaching of Hell and other teaching in the mainstream church were not consistent and the scriptures seemed to contradict themselves along with God and Jesus saying one thing at one time then another later. It took me a long time to research these things I encourage you to do some research on the original text and true meaning of words in the bible as well.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Okay, japtaker, so Jude 7 is translated, "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian/aionios, while Heb 9:14 is translated "Christ, Who through the eternal [eonian/aionios] Spirit..."

Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26, "everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die. Do you believe this?"

Martha physically died. Sodom and Gomorra were physically destroyed. Now, what 'fire' are they yet partaking in to this day? The fires of Hades, not Gehenna (the lake of fire, which is the final fire), for look at this (study all four words for 'hell' to know the difference: Sheol/Hades/Tartaroo and Gehenna):

Jesus said in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Judgment here is krisis - judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation. Commonly, a "negative" verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on.

It sounds like you were 'tormented' in a way, by the idea of eternal fire (hell), so the way you got peace was simply not believing it could be so, but rather temporary. Even if you consider the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 a 'parable' (which of course, is not, as Jesus names names of real people; it is not prefaced as a parable as are all the others, and He doesn't have to explain it to His disciples), the rich man was not told to 'wait it out, for one day you will be delievered, once you've paid for your sins.'

We CAN'T PAY for our sins. If we could, Jesus would not have had to die for us. Stating that was not enough is so sad...rejoice in the Truth! Entrust your salvation to Him alone. He alone is your Savior (Isa 43:11; Hos 13:4).

Jesus did NOT say in John 11:26 "everyone will never die." He said, "Everyone WHO BELIEVES IN ME will never die. Do YOU believe this?"

Think about this as well. If annihilation were the second death, why raise the unbelieving dead at all? (Rev 20:5). They're already dead and as you stated, they know not anything, so....no point. The judgment (sentencing) is coming, and according to the Word, it is aionios.

Ez 33:6 "'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'"

You, if you are a child of God, are a 'watchman', and to tell people they will be saved after their physical death is dangerous. Heb 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment [krisis]."

Once judged [krisis], there is a sentence. Rom 8:1-2 "Therefore there is now no condemnation [katakrima - "the results of judgment" – properly, the exact sentence of condemnation handed down after due process (establishing guilt)] for those who are in Christ Jesus." This does not say, "Therefore there is now no condemation [katakrima] for all."

I pray you will embrace 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal [aionios] life."

Believe [pisteuo] - From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

2 Cor 6:2 "For He says, 'In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.' I tell you, NOW is the time of God's favor, NOW is the day of salvation."


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

For those who have the question about why God created Satan and what His purpose is, I wrote a hub based on my Bible study of this topic: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Satans-PUR...

Here are the results:

So what are the characteristics of the god of this world, the Devil? Looking up all the definitions, here is a summary:

1. He is diligently observant, enchanting and crafty.

2. He is called a twisted serpent and twists the Word of God.

3. He is sly and cunning, artful and malicious.

4. He is an opponent, the arch enemy of good and is an adversary.

5. He accuses God’s children before God day and night.

6. He is a false accuser and slanderer.

7. He endeavors to scrutinize, tempt and try.

8. He is used by God for discipline and wrath (2 Sam 24:1/1 Chr 21:1; 1 Cor 5:5; Revelation 12 regarding the Great Tribulation persecution).

9. He is a liar and the father of lies.

10. He entices us to sin and commit abominations against God.

Because God HATES SIN (any form of unrighteousness), the Devil desires to enslave all people to sin, and to especially cause God's children to sin. He does this to people and through people (Romans 14:13, 20-21; 1 Cor 10:32).


DT 4 years ago

@JudahsDaughter

Satan sounds a lot like you, following after a doctrine that the apostle Peter rebuked (aka Modalism/Oneness). Or are you saying Peter was one of the first rejecters of truth?


DT 4 years ago

@JudahsDaughter

Satan sounds a lot like you, following after a doctrine that the apostle Peter rebuked (aka Modalism/Oneness). Or are you saying Peter was one of the first rejecters of truth?


Sold Out to Jesus profile image

Sold Out to Jesus 4 years ago from Indiana

@DT,

What scripture are you basing that statement off of?


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Judah's daughter we can go round and round I can find plenty of correct interpretations of Judgement, Hell, Eternal torment condemnation etc most of which I already have mentioned but you wouldn't listen anyway.

You said I was tormented by the thought of hell and just chose to ignore it. NO I was tormented by people like you who twist God's word to fit into your theology. Instead of ignoring it I proved hell to be false by researching the text.

Lazarus parable has nothing to do with torment of hell but again If it was you would come away thinking if your are rich and don't help the poor you go to hell. The parable never tells of salvation or Lazarus rejecting Christ or why he was tormented in hell. That's because it's not a parable of hell at all it's a parable of the Jews being rich because they were chosen and ignoring God thus they are tormented and the beggar (gentiles) reaped the blessings instead but your carnal mind believes otherwise. The great Chasm that divides them is Jesus and his ministry

Now your quoted words

Jesus did NOT say in John 11:26 "everyone will never die." He said, "Everyone WHO BELIEVES IN ME will never die. Do YOU believe this?"

Answer

Of course but in Rev every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is Lord and that happens after death so do things happen to you at the judgement after you die? They sure do. And all those that did not believe now believe? Yes

You said:

Martha physically died. Sodom and Gomorra were physically destroyed. Now, what 'fire' are they yet partaking in to this day? The fires of Hades, not Gehenna (the lake of fire, which is the final fire), for look at this (study all four words for 'hell' to know the difference: Sheol/Hades/Tartaroo and Gehenna):

Really they are partaking in the fires of Hades? wow I didn't know that thanks. Hades is a pagan word for the ruler of hell so now you are infusing paganism with your theology like the Jews did during the time of Jesus? Actually the meaning in the bible regarding Hades is the same as Sheol so let's see what the scriptures say about Sheol.

Sheol

it is silent in sheol (Psalm 31:17)

the DEAD are in sheol (Proverbs 9:18)

souls are REDEEMED from sheol (Psalm 49:15)

there is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom in sheol (Ecc. 9:10)

no praise in sheol (Isa. 38:18—not even from the RIGHTEOUS who are there)

God will RANSOM souls from sheol (Hosea 13:14)

sheol is a place of DEATH (Psalm 55:15)

the DEAD are in sheol (Psalm 139:8)

God is in sheol (Psalm 139:8)

God will DESTROY sheol (Hosea 13:14)

Any note of torment in Sheol in any of these verses? NOPE any mention of a burning fire Nope any mention of a total separation from God? Nope in fact God is in Sheol in Psalm 139:8 and what about devils are they mentioned? Nope

Tartaroo? I guess you mean Tartarus Paul borrowed the word from the famous fable the Book of Enoch. Peter alludes to this ancient legend to illustrate the certainty of retribution without any intention of teaching the silly notions of angels falling from heaven and certainly not meaning to sanction the then prevalent notions concerning the heathen Tartarus.

Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15:8; II Kings 17:10; II Chron. 28:3; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:2.

Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.

The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.

Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.

Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.

It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?

Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?

Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?

All these truths will not convince you otherwise I am afraid. Your preaching and promoting a pagan hell is very sad.

Thanks for the report on who Satan is it still doesn't prove there is a hell where sinners burn eternally.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

So AEQUANIMITAS43, since you say there is a translation issue, what super secret Bible do you read that keeps it in perspective?


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Well the problem is not just translation there a translation problem but there is a doctrine problem and a lack of common sense problem and an assumption problem. My previous post showed sheoul (which can be found in any bible) has nothing to do with a place of torment and yet it's preached or assumed that it is in pulpits everywhere. So is many other false teachings that you can find in any bible to be a lie. Since there really is no perfect translation one needs to research the Greek to understand it's true meaning not only that but also research the context and history so it's not an easy task however it is much easier since the dawn of the internet. And above all seek the Holy Spirit for answers. I think too many people are lazy and get fed in church whatever the preacher says never researching it for themselves.

I am no authority nor a bible scholar I just have noticed flawed doctrine which is alarming since it's preached everywhere. If nothing I wrote is scriptural than ignore it. But I would advise anyone to seek out the truth in the Word not from an ordained minister of a certain denomination but do your own "bible study". Anyone trained up in a certain denomination may cling to what they believe even if it is in conflict with what is true or what their heart and Holy Spirit is telling them. We see this all the time when preachers aren't what they claim to be and yet people still follow them as if nothing happened. So no secret bible I am afraid just my own research and guiding of the Holy Spirit. You can take any verse in the bible and do an internet search and listen to all translations and points of view on any given topic then draw your own conclusions.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 4 years ago from United States Author

Judah's Daughter said:

"Okay, japtaker . . . Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26, 'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.' Do you believe this?"

To answer your question honestly, I must say no, I do not currently believe that. As much as I often wish I had faith, faith is something which mostly escapes me these days. I do not consider myself a Christian at this time, although I would have considered myself to be one when I wrote this hub originally. I am, as trite as it sounds, a "seeker". Whether I will perpetually be a seeker or whether I will ever find remains to be seen. But I do feel quite certain that, whatever I may or may not find in the future, I will not find a universe in which people are consigned to any sort of eternal hell. Of course, if I'm wrong, I suppose that I will most likely find out eventually, in this life or the next!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

DT - Let's look at the Apostle Peter's words in one of your favorite versions of the Bible, the NLT 2 Pet 1:1 "This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior."

Are there two persons here? NO. The LORD YHVH stated in Hosea 13:4 (NLT) "I have been the LORD your God ever since I brought you out of Egypt. You must acknowledge no God but me, for there is no other savior." Hmmm. So, the LORD our God is both God and Savior?

You don't believe Jesus is God. Do you believe He's our Savior? Isaiah 43:11 NLT states (by the LORD YHVH), "I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no other Savior."

There is no debate. You can go on with your compulsive responses and challenges to the Truth, but as for me, I've turned you over to God, for you are unteachable.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Dear japtaker, your humility before the LORD is honorable, and I say that from the depths of my heart. I'm certain the LORD would rather a person not KNOW whether or not they are saved, because they don't judge themselves worthy (which we are not), than to have someone spout off that they ARE saved without the fear of the LORD (entitlement). I've met more 'saved' people that don't even know they're children of God (I simply KNOW/discern by their humility of heart and fruit)...and my heart it so humbled and blessed. Likewise, I've met people that claim to be saved that I KNOW/discern are not (wolves).

Deep, deep in your heart, believe the words of Jesus. Ask Him if these were indeed His words, okay? The New Testament (and a very small portion of the Old) have been altered, no doubt (provable and documented). For instance, there is not a disciple named 'James'! King James decided to change his name from Jacob (reference the original languages) to 'James'. A pastor just prached on this and said, "I guess Jacob sounded too Jewish for them." Get real!

Let me remind you of these three passages to put deep within your spirit, okay?

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal [aionios] life."

2 Cor 6:2 "For He says, 'In the time of My favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.' I tell you, NOW is the time of God's favor, NOW is the day of salvation."

John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" - believe it or not; it is the Truth.

I'm so sorry you were abused by the intimidating/threatening doctrine of eternal hell. Even I was not threatened in such a way, but I've seen those 'hellfire and brimstone' preachers out there that say if you happen to run a red light and swear right before you are killed in the resulting accident, you're going to hell (horrendous!!!!). I focus on eternal life and putting my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. This is what gives me peace. Trusting in His Word.


Sturgeonl profile image

Sturgeonl 4 years ago

Very explosive topic. While I agree that Jesus Christ is the saviour for all men not all men choose to want to be saved by Christ. God gave man free will! Those who do not receive the mercy of our Lord Jesus (and there are many souls that do) God can not save because of His covenant of free will given to man. Hell is real but while remembering this it is important to remember His mercy so you do not become fearful about it. To not believe in an eternal Hell is to discredit scripture entirely.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

AEQUANIMITAS43, I agree completely with your statement. 90% (if not more) of the people in church never pick up their bibles and check what the pastor teaches is real. I am fortunate to be under a Pastor to requires us to know what He teaches. Frankly, we don't get into the Hell topic all that much. We are in the midst of going through a Revival right now and the devil is fighting us like crazy. I live in a town that has only 5,000 people but 30 different churches. There is a huge spirit of religion and tradition that is blanketing the area.

I agree with you mostly there are a lot of scriptures that people just take a face value and never really look at the 'inner' meaning of it that only the Spirit can reveal to you. Matthew 28:19 is the main verse that is completely out of context and used to support a doctrine and baptismal formula that is anti-Scriptures. I will be writing a hub on this in the next few days to explain why I know this to be true.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Sturgeon

I would challenge you on free will but that will be another time as I just cannot type it all right now. I would ask you though if Paul had free will on his road to Damascus when God struck him blind. I don't think anyone who was struck blind and audibly spoke to by almighty God would have any other choice but to obey God. Also If it's God's will that none shall perish and Jesus prayed Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven who's will wins out God's or mans? I better quit now or I will write another book here and don't have the time. There is no hell in the bible and to say to is discrediting the scripture. Adam committed the worst sin he started it all and did he land in a pond of torment? No. But all of a sudden now God sends people less than Adam there. You discredit the saving power of Jesus Christ and terrify those trying to be saved. Oops see now I have gone over my time.


Sturgeonl profile image

Sturgeonl 4 years ago

Complex indeed. There are many arguements but all you really have to do is look at the will of Lucifer (the fallen angel) when he chose to disobey God. God did not want it but it happened but because of the will of Lucifer and his disobedience he was cast from Heaven. Where did he go? Call it hell or whatever you want. If there can be disobedience in Heaven in the heart of an angel then there can be disobedience on earth in the heart of a man. Lucifer is after souls and despite Our Lord wishing to save every soul some are lost because of their choice to turn from God.Some just refuse the saving power of our Lord.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Sturgeon

If you are referring to Satan who was a crooked serpent in the Garden of Eden he was created that way by God. Lucifer is not the name of Satan. Lucifer was the name of a king that God cast down from power due to his disobedience. If you are asking where Satan is he is on earth. There is no disobedience in heaven nor will there ever will be since all beings will conform to Jesus and we all know a house divided cannot stand. Please show me the great rebellion in the bible in heaven I would love to read that chapter I cannot find it in any bible. Once again this is more assumptions, false doctrine and myths of pagans infused with the word of God


Timlove profile image

Timlove 4 years ago from upstate New York

AEQUANIMITAS43 you seem to be out numbered so I just wanted to say that I agree with you a place of eternal torment from which there is no escape is a gray area in the Bible. However the once and for all sacrifice of Gods son is set in stone. "Every" knee will bow "every" tongue confess that Jesus the christ is lord. The defenition of salvation is you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord.I believe everyone will be saved but you dont have to go through hell before you do

God has always used evil to accomplish his purposes so if hell is what it takes than he will allow you to go through hell. we have free will but God knows what we will choose before we do and he knows what it will take to get us to choose him.

What gets me is people who believe there is a place of eternal torment from which there is no escape do not believe that they or anyone they love are going there. that thought is not bearable for them. God loves everyone!!!


Sturgeonl profile image

Sturgeonl 4 years ago

God loves everyone but not everyone loves God. Quotes from Revelation about the second judgement. In the end it clearly states not everyone will enter Heaven.

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [

(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Timlove profile image

Timlove 4 years ago from upstate New York

Sturgeon1 That still does not prove eternal torment from which there is no escape. There is nothing in the Bible that does prove that. but the once and for all sacrifice of christ is very clear and that is all I will say on the subject. the bible says not to get into vain disputes so I will end on that note.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Sturgeon

The seas will give up it's dead and hell(hell meaning the grave not a burning pit where people are tormented)since "the dead know nothing"(Ecclesiastes 9:5) they must come back to life and be resurrected to be judged. And we know Paul said it is

"For our God is A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

Gehenna fire is the furnace of fire, the unquenchable fire, the everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the lake of fire.

And this fire by five names is God's Judgment:

upon His disciples (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30)

upon the Pharisees (Matt. 23:33)

upon the chaff (Matt. 3:12)

upon the spiritual goats (Matt. 25:32 & 41)

upon trees which bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19)

upon the spiritual tares (Matt. 13:40)

upon all the WICKED (Matt. 13:49-50)

All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:

"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on the UNGODLY:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).

Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)

and

"the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:8).

Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY!

Your pagan ideology that this pond is is literal and fire is literal is not scriptural the fire is a spiritual fire.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

AEQUANIMITAS43 Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has NO POWER, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

1 Thes 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Timlove

I appreciate your comment.

I agree God does not need the unsaved to enter hell and be tormented to be eventually saved or cut off or whatever it's just not even in the scriptures.

Just like you I cannot believe how many who say God is love and Jesus is love but thinks Jesus is also like Hitler where he allows or orchestrates some concentration camp where all loved ones who did not accept Christ go to be tormented night and day it's twisted perverted theology that has raped the minds of people for hundreds of years.

The mainstream Christianity (especially evangelical)goes something like this.

God and Jesus love you (if you accept him now otherwise you burn burn burn)

You parents, friends, all those you have loved now before and ever who did not accept Christ are all burning, or will burn in a lake someday or are there now if they are dead. Either they are in Hades, Hell or the lake of fire.

Jesus commanded us to love one another and love our enemies however he himself will throw his enemies in a lake send them to eternal torment where they scream for ever and ever and some how that's ok and is either a show of love somehow or just what God needs to do he commands us to love our enemies but he himself doesn't love his enemies.

Are you getting excited about salvation yet? No I don't understand why?

We never chose to live in this time or place or environment or chose our parents or height are weight are intelligence our location or gender and it is not us who chooses God but God chooses us and yet we have free will.

You are free to choose Jesus and love him No? you reject him ok well you will burn in a fire in hell because you have a free will and if I can't convince you he loves you (even though all you relatives and everyone you love has or will be in hell if they don't accept him ) I will scare you into believing this to be true and If I can't convert you at least I can torment you with all kinds of doubts and guessing what hell is going to be like because I am doing God's work.

This is their perception of the GOOD NEWS of the gospel it's sick twisted and perverted.

It's the GOODNESS of God that leads men to repentance GOD DID NOT COME INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD BUT WHY WHY WHY Can't people see this WHY!!!!!

Because they are stuck in their own theology they are stuck with what their pastors and teachers have taught them and they won't give it up for the GOOD NEWS that Jesus is the savoir of ALL!!!! The savior of the WORLD!!! The World!!! He takes away the sins of the WORLD!!! End of sentence no buts at all!! And yet they blaspheme God all day saying he doesn't save everyone they insult the work of the cross they insult Jesus and all he went through. I feel sorry for them because most don't mean it they are just ignorant (as I was) of the true meaning and Spirit of the word.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Judah's Daughter

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

The reward here is avoiding Judgement (second death) those that don't suffer loss and shall be saved YET SO AS BY FIRE!!! FIRE!!! FIRE!!!! FIRE!!! Same as the lake of fire they are judged with the wicked and yet are they tormented NO!! They suffer loss.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

"Because he hath appointed a day [called that day and the Day of the Lord in many prophesies], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

All men wait he has given assurance unto all men? no that mus read he hath given assurance unto some men who believed in a hell or some men unto that were saved before they died or unto some denomination or some theology belonging to a few men. NO ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN!!!!!


Timlove profile image

Timlove 4 years ago from upstate New York

AEQUANIMITAS43 I share your fustration but there is nothing new under the sun, God has always used a remnant and they always suffered for his sake, Christ himself said how long must i suffer you he was moked and misunderstood by his own brotheren. we are not greater than our master. cease from your own works and enter into his rest brother. looking foreward to reading some of your hubs.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

AEQUANIMITAS43, I guess I'm giving a little more than two cents here on this topic...actually, I've spent two years refuting the Universal salvation doctrine...so, there's nothing new under the sun.

From my hub "Refute of Salvation for ALL Doctrine"

"A couple of the passages used by [Universalists] to "prove" that people will be saved through spiritual "fire" is 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Cor 3:13-15. First of all, believers have FAITH; unbelievers do not. These passages have to do with the saved. Let me show here how it's written in the NAS version of the Bible:

1 Peter 1:7 "that is the proof of your FAITH, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"

Translated correctly, this is better understood by the proper typing of the words and punctuation:

"That the trial of your FAITH (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (DRB)

1 Cor 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains; he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.

The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation), is consumed by fire, escapes (is snatched out), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (therefore, the loss of his reward-prize). The word it above is the foundation of Jesus Christ in Whom he has his FAITH. He does not lose his salvation, nor does he obtain it by these works.

Eph 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, one more comment about the 'all consuming fire' of God okay?

Regarding Sodom & Gomorrah and the deliverance (salvation) of Lot, his wife and two daughters, read Gen 19:17 "And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be CONSUMED."

It was not the righteous (Gen 18:28) that were consumed by the fire and brimstone.

On the other hand, those who are saved by faith are 'baptized with fire' (Mat 20:22-23; 3:11), which means trials and tribulation. Our faith is tested by 'fire' as we live and breathe, and "he who endures till the end shall be saved." (Mat 24:13)

Point being, one fire consumes to destroy the wicked (Jude 7); the other fire (baptism - consuming) tests and purifies faith (1 Pet 1:7), though it is the same word: Greek 4442 pur.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Japtaker

You mentioned in the post above you were not a Christian. As you already know I went through a lot of what you did but I neglected to tell you before I went through what you had I became a Christian and I became a Christian because I searched God on my own. I was not a part of a church nor any denomination. Every day I read the bible and I prayed God would show me his love. I don't know what I was expecting exactly and I didn't know much about Jesus, Anyway I confessed Jesus as my savior at a meeting of Christians and I still didn't really believe. That night I was consumed by the Holy Spirit he bathed me in a warmth I cannot even do justice to the experience and all the things I had read in the bible about the Love of God and Jesus were confirmed in my mind that night not because of me but because of the Holy Ghost. I felt joy beyond anything I had ever experienced and love for people I had never experienced and any fear I had within me was burned away (yes that as of a fire that burns). It was not until I stepped foot into a church where hell and eternal suffering and unforgivable sins were preached did I start to doubt the love of God and become fearful and emotionally a wreck.

Why am I saying all this? Well for 2 reasons. One reason is my experience was different than yours in the respect that because I had that spiritual experience before starting to listening to these doctrines (hell, loss of salvation, relatives in hell etc.) I always still believed. And the second reason is to encourage you to continue your quest to find God. If you are still a seeker as you wrote you were I want to encourage you to seek God in his word and pray Jesus reveals the height, width and depth of his love for you. If you do this as much as possible (not in a religious repetitive way of course) but in a humble way as I did I know Jesus will reveal himself as he did me. Many people who want to lose weight go to the gym and exercise for a week and then give up and say it didn't work. It's the same with seeking Jesus. Many go to church, read the bible and say it didn't work I still don't believe it just doesn't work that way. You may have to be a "seeker" for a while before the Holy Spirit reveals all things to you but it will happen since he does not turn anyone away.

I hope my above experience helps you in your quest to seek and I pray all those lies about eternal torment will flake away that you might see Jesus as he really is. The Savior of the World


japtaker profile image

japtaker 4 years ago from United States Author

Thank you very much, AEQUANIMITAS43, both for your lively contributions to the conversation on this hub, and for your kind and encouraging words for me. The latter, in particular, really does mean a lot to me.


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Judah

First of all if you have researched an alternate point of view especially for 2 years as you said there probably is no way you can be convinced otherwise so it's no longer profitable for us to continue on this path so this will be my final post directed toward you on the subject of hell fire or torment or any of the other pagan beliefs you hold so dear to your heart.

Point being, one fire consumes to destroy the wicked (Jude 7); the other fire (baptism - consuming) tests and purifies faith (1 Pet 1:7), though it is the same word: Greek 4442 pur.

No!!! One fire does not mean baptism and one mean consuming it's the same fire. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. One more time

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

The word burned here is by a fire so is God burning Christians? No but you believe that he burns the unsaved? All of the sudden it's literal.

As you said you have been refuting Universalism for 2 years so let's just agree to disagree. If you want to believe that Sodom's wife is burning in Hades as we speak which is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard go ahead. I could explain these things all day and night for eons or an eternity and you still wouldn't understand or you refuse to understand whatever the reason it's futile for us to continue debating it. You are one of those that hinder people from coming to Christ and I pity you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

If you don't want to be challenged by the Word, AEQUANIMITAS43, I understand why you would not want to continue debating with me. That shows you have a choice (will), doesn't it?

Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by literal fire and Lot's wife became a pillar of salt. I don't know if the fires of hell (Gehenna) are literal, but that's not for me to determine. Is it perpetual ~ yes, according to what is written. If what is written is false, then whoever changed the scriptures will be accountable before God (Rev 22:18). Rev 4:11 states, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever [aion] and ever [aion]; THEY have no rest day and night..." WHO has no 'rest' day and night? And for how long? If it is temporary, then you'd have to apply the same meaning for "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

I pray God's peace on this subject, and that people would just believe 2 Cor 6:2 "NOW is the day of salvation."


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Judah you are hopeless in believing anything but what you believe.

You said

Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by literal fire and Lot's wife became a pillar of salt. I don't know if the fires of hell (Gehenna) are literal, but that's not for me to determine

It should be for you to determine since the basis of that doctrine is laced in you theology and if it is wrong could it no hinder you or others from loving Christ? Could it cause you to review everything you have ever understood to be true and re-evaluate it?

You posted earlier Sodom's wife is still burning in a fire in Hades now you state it's not for you to determine. You are so inconsistent it's not even funny. I told you that aion has several meanings of time they can explain an age or ages and it doesn't matter to you. You just believe in your pagan hell doctrine.

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever [aion] and ever [aion]; THEY have no rest day and night..." WHO has no 'rest' day and night? And for how long?

How long? Until God is finished that's how long. Sodom burned until God was finished burning it. It's not burning now. Is this so hard for you to conceive? Sodom is not burning now and you cannot understand it? It's not for you to understand?

For ever and ever is not even a correct translation God never even said that in the original text. The example I gave you missed so I'll try again. If I say I have been waiting for you for ages does that not notate a measure of time? Yes but it's not specified how long and If I say God is the God of ages have I not used the same word Ages but used them differently to mean a different indefinite period of time? Same word Ages but different meaning. Do you understand this?

I didn't say I don't want to be challenged. I am saying after 6 posts I wrote regarding hell, Hades, Eternity you won't concede anything and you revealed you have been "refuting" those that would challenge your doctrine for 2 years it is fruitless to go on. you have obviously decided to believe what you believe and nothing would change your mind you can challenge me all day and I can reciprocate but it won't change your stubborn mindset.

You can't explain why Sodom isn't burning now yet according to you it should still be burning since it burns eternally according to what you believe.

Can you explain why Adam isn't in hell since he was the worst sinner who disobeyed God? He who started it all? He who ushered death into the world? He who was given paradise on a silver platter and threw it all away for knowledge? You think that deserves the hell fire torment that you so cling to? And yet the Lord God made him clothes the next day. Is that love? Was judgement placed on Adam? You bet is was but was hell the judgement? Did God burn him up in some pond? NO did Adam go on to populate the earth for like almost 500 years? Yup but if anyone deserved hell for rebelling it surely would be him and yet it didn't happen nor was it ever stated and why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO HELL!!!!

You said

I understand why you would not want to continue debating with me

No you don't you don't understand at all. If you are not teachable why would I want to keep going over the same thing? That's defined as insanity. 2 years no one could teach you anything so my guess is 2 more years you won't be taught anything. You have made up your mind and it won't be changed. So why debate? You have heard it all right? I posted all about hell and fire and defined all those meanings in my last 4 posts and you continue on not mentioning them and throwing other scriptures out as if that was going to change everything.

Ok well Nothing is going to change you I get it so we agree to disagree.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

AEQUANIMITAS43, Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment is not finished, according to Jesus in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

We don't know where Adam is, frankly. They, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were judged according to the flesh, just as we are; however, there is yet the final judgment coming. Adam and Eve obviously repented of their sin and raised their children accordingly. We read that Cain killed Abel, so we can assume Abel is favored (saved) and Cain condemned. Seth was godly, just as Abel. I state again, the Bible doesn't say the condition of Adam's faith when he died.

It's interesting that you left out the rest of my comment about 'no rest day or night forever [aion] and ever' [aion], when you compare it to "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

You obviously believe in soul sleep, just as the SDA's. John 11:13-14 tells his disciples that 'sleep' means 'died'. "Lazarus is dead." Jesus told Martha in John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" So, this cannot be talking about physical life, but spiritual life.

Ecc 12:7 states, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." Stephen prayed in Acts 7:59, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." This is the spirit God breathed into Adam's (man's) nostrils, making him a living soul (Gen 2:7).

If this didn't mean immediate/continued spiritual life at the moment of physical death, explain how Jesus raised Himself from the dead: John 2:19 "in three days I will raise it up."

We can see in what you call a 'parable', which depicts a heavenly Truth, that both the rich man and Lazarus (a Jewish name, by the way - ref John 11:1) physically died, yet there was a consciousness/conversation between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man was in the grave having this conversation? "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment" (Luke 16:23). Again, he was not told he would be rescued at some future point, once he had finished paying for his sin.

He had his chance, just as his five brothers, while alive. How? vs. 29 "'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'....'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Again, Hades and Gehenna are not the same 'hell'. Even the angels who sinned in the days of Noah are incarcerated in 'the deepest abyss of Hades' (Tartarus), reserved for the final judgment (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6) of Gehenna.

Since everyone will 'see' and 'confess' Jesus as LORD at the judgment, are they then saved by that confession? THAT has nothing to DO with FAITH (not seeing, yet believing). The demons believe and obviously confessed who Jesus was, and tremble (James [Jacob] 2:19). They know there is an appointed time when they will be judged [sentenced] to torment.

The demons said to Jesus in Mat 8:29 "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" Obviously, since demons are roaming the earth, doing their 'father's' will (which is God's allowance and for His purpose), they are not in that place/condition of torment yet. Likewise, Heb 9:27 states, "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

What is the doctrine that is hardest to endure, leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe? Hell. 2 Tim 4:3 tells us "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..." L Ray Smith and bibletruths.com?


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Wow Judah you have jumped around once again like a rabbit on a hot plate.

Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment is not finished, according to Jesus in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Oh so it is more tolerable? So God just doesn't throw everything in one pond and all torment for ever and ever? Sounds like there are judgements that are more tolerable than others how can a burning lake be tolerable at all? I know BECAUSE IT'S NOT LITERAL!!!!

My point was Sodom is not burning now and yet the scriptures as you read for face value is that Sodom is burning Eternally but it's not the correct interpretation of eternity. You still can't explain why Sodom isn't burning right now but you say it's eternally burning do you realize there are people in padded rooms saying things are on fire when they clearly are not?

You said:

We don't know where Adam is, frankly. They, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were judged according to the flesh, just as we are; however, there is yet the final judgment coming. Adam and Eve obviously repented of their sin and raised their children accordingly. We read that Cain killed Abel, so we can assume Abel is favored (saved) and Cain condemned. Seth was godly, just as Abel. I state again, the Bible doesn't say the condition of Adam's faith when he died.

Let me ask you this. When Adam and Cain sinned and did God EVER tell them they would burn forever in a pit? NO!!! NOT ONCE!!! Read again what God said to Adam after he sinned and then read what God said to Cain. Did Cain say this is to much for me to bear? Really? He could not bear the judgement laid upon him in this life and God never mentioned Hell or a pit of torment in the next waiting for him saying if you can't bear this just wait until the afterlife? You think it would be something he would have mentioned since he was on the subject of judgement? Ok so you have no idea if Adam went to hell or Cain went to hell since the bible doesn't mention it and you go on to judge other characters in the bible we don't assume anything does not the bible say judge no lest you be judged? Now you are picking and choosing who goes to the mythical hell? Adam doesn't Cain did and yet NO MENTION OF IT IN THE BIBLE. NOT ONCE DID GOD MENTION CAIN WENT TO HELL NOR ADAM NOR SAUL NOR GOLIATH NOT ONE!!!! You think if it was true God would have mentioned it to Adam? To Cain?

You said

It's interesting that you left out the rest of my comment about 'no rest day or night forever [aion] and ever' [aion], when you compare it to "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

I used the example about how the word ages or age can be used to denote time and still have different measures of time but you are ignoring it so let's move on.

You said:

You obviously believe in soul sleep, just as the SDA's. John 11:13-14 tells his disciples that 'sleep' means 'died'. "Lazarus is dead." Jesus told Martha in John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" So, this cannot be talking about physical life, but spiritual life.

Jesus even said when raising Lazarus that he was not dead but asleep is this once again so hard for you to understand? Yes Jesus was raised from the dead in 3 days did he promise you he would raise you up in 3 days after you had died? NO

You said:

We can see in what you call a 'parable', which depicts a heavenly Truth, that both the rich man and Lazarus (a Jewish name, by the way - ref John 11:1) physically died, yet there was a consciousness/conversation between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man was in the grave having this conversation? "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment" (Luke 16:23). Again, he was not told he would be rescued at some future point, once he had finished paying for his sin.

Over and Over again I have proven this is not a story of a man in a real hell burning somewhere but you are stiff necked in you beliefs. The rich man didn't give to the poor and died and went to hell. Is there any scriptures to prove this to be true??? What is the basis for salvation? Being Rich? Helping a beggar at a gate? What is the basis of salvation being a beggar? In your LITERAL interpretation the man was rich and didn't help a beggar so deserved hell and Lazarus was a beggar so he hung out in paradise with Abraham. It's the most absurd assumption you can make. If I light you on fire can I carry on a conversation with you? Can we talk about why you are tormented? Or would you be screaming so loud you wouldn't even notice I was there. And am I walking in perfect love while I'm burning you? Would any sane person view me as good? NO!!! And yet you view God as good who does such a thing. And yet this rich man who we know nothing about is in torment in hell having a nice conversation with Abraham while this poor guy received these great blessings because he was poor. Does that make sense you to? Is Jesus saying something totally different than what you perceive it to be? Jesus was using this parable to teach the rich man (Judah) who was in torment (spiritual torment) ignored ( Jesus) so the gentiles (poor beggars) received the good things. I won't repeat this one again since you refuse to listen.

You said:

Again, Hades and Gehenna are not the same 'hell'. Even the angels who sinned in the days of Noah are incarcerated in 'the deepest abyss of Hades' (Tartarus), reserved for the final judgment (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6) of Gehenna.

I explained and defined Tartarus to you and you once again ignored it. Tartarus is a mythical place noted in the Book of Enoch. Paul used it to explain judgement. The book of Enoch was a fairy tale do you believe in the pagan book of Enoch over Gods word? If I told you to run the race faster than anyone even if you are ahead lest like the turtle and the hare you become prideful and lazy and allow the turtle to overtake you do you start taking the story literally? Was there really a race with a hare and a turtle where they talked to each other and made a wager? No! But I still can use it as an example in a story. Still not getting it I presume.

You said

Since everyone will 'see' and 'confess' Jesus as LORD at the judgment, are they then saved by that confession? THAT has nothing to DO with FAITH (not seeing, yet believing). The demons believe and obviously confessed who Jesus was, and tremble (James [Jacob] 2:19). They know there is an appointed time when they will be judged [sentenced] to torment

The demons DO NOT BELIEVE AND OBVIOUSLY CONFESS JESUS WAS LORD!!!! YOU HAVE PERVERTED THE BIBLE QUOTE!!!!!

The REAL QUOTE SAYS:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

NO MENTION OF JESUS IN THIS NOT ONE!!! OK DEMONS BELIEVE GOD IS ONE BUT WHEN HAS THE BELIEF GOD IS ONE BEEN A BASIS FOR SALVATION THROUGH JESUS???????

Do Demons get judged at an appointed time? YUP and Is it appointed time for men to die once and then comes the judgment? YUP I never said God does not judge I never said it's not gonna be uncomfortable but it doesn't mean eternal torment.

You said:

What is the doctrine that is hardest to endure, leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe? Hell

Where did you get that? You assume the hardest doctrine to endure is hell? You assume that?

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..."

I can just as well apply this teaching to you. Is sound doctrine include hell when God commands us to love our enemies? Did Jesus say to love one another? If you love me? Does love have anything to do with a hell that people burn in torment for ever and ever?

leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe?

Actually in my case it was the other way around. I believed those that claimed to know the truth (like you) and realized that people like you never did endure

sound doctrine and wanted to have their


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

My last sentence in the above blog was a typo


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

AEQUANIMITAS43, The land of Sodom and Gomorrah is no longer, the people that lived in the land are the ones judged. Same thing with the city [i.e. Capernaum] whose judgment will be worse in the 'Day of judgment' - it's about the people, not the land. And yes, there are levels of torment, based on these scriptures.

Enoch was the seventh son of Adam, and lived while Adam yet lived. His book talks a lot about hell, so just because the book was removed from the canon by the coucils 200 years after Christ's death does not mean it was not known.

Don't get into 'judging lest you be judged'. This is about those who practice the very things they are judging others for - hypocrisy. We are to judge, especially amongst the brethren (1 Cor 6). Consider how Paul told the Church at Corinth to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the 'flesh' so that his soul 'may' be saved in the last day (1 Cor 5:5).

Weak rebuttal about for ever [aion] and ever [aion], so yes, let's move on.

Obviously, you did not read John 11:13-14, so I will type them here: "12The disciples said, 'Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!' They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. So He told them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead'." You have understanding as limited as the disciples and don't want to believe that 'sleeping' here means 'dead'.

Eleazar is not Lazarus, and whether or not you view Lazarus as a picture of the Gentiles or not is only a matter of interpreting the 'symbolism' you so long to attribute to what you call a 'parable'. The word 'parable' is not in the Greek language, prefacing this account. And, it has nothing to do with being monetarily rich or poor, but the attitude of the heart.

You stated, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.' NO MENTION OF JESUS IN THIS NOT ONE!!!"

Obviously, you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, do you? John 8:24 " unless you believe that I AM [Ego Eimi], you will die in your sins." 1 Cor 12:3 "no one can say, 'Jesus is Yehovah [LORD],' except by the Holy Spirit."

What does loving your enemies mean? It means "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I will tell you the Truth, even if you 'hate' it or me; even if you're an angry Adversary that seeks to chop off my head.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate [love less] his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

God loved us enough to come to us in His Word made flesh to be hated and crucified. He did His part, yet those who reject this sacrifice and choose another (i.e. purification through the 'lake of fire') nullify it ~ make it void:

Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify [atheteo - I annul, make of no effect, set aside, ignore, slight; I break faith with] the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Thus we understand better Mark 14:24 (NLT) "And He said to them, 'This is My blood, which confirms the covenant between God and His people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many." And, John 10:11 "I AM [Ego Eimi] the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd sacrifices His life for the sheep." (Ref Ps 23:1 - the LORD is my Shepherd).

Are all sheep? If so, then why a separation between the 'sheep and the goats'? (Mat 25:33).


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Nope not doing this anymore.

Your pagan ideology stems from the Catholic dogma from 550 AD. I am not going to convince you after 2 solid days of writing that which totally refutes your sick perverted image of God. Nor after 2 years of you debating others in this manner. So we agree to disagree. Jesus came into the world to save the world he came not to condemn the world but to give it life more abundant. You will not be convinced otherwise so I will not address you on these matters anymore.


japtaker profile image

japtaker 4 years ago from United States Author

Oh, and thank you, Judah's daughter, for your participation and for your encouragement as well. I thought I'd told you already, but reviewing my comments, it seems that I hadn't.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

that last question JD is a good one. Why the separation by Christ Himself?

Sheep and goats - One is welcomed into the Kingdom and the other into everlasting fire.

Wheat and chaff - one gets harvested, the other burned up.

I can understand the argument on a few things where its a translation issue, like eternity (I believe was the word you said isn't found). But these verses, unless there is a translation issue that you are arguing about - need to be taken seriously and as truth. They are in the Infallible Word of God and everything in it is to be believed and upheld.

I agree with AEQUANIMITAS though in the fact it is really hard to show majority of people that Hell does not exist. We all 3 will know soon if it does, because we are in the End Times and now is the time to Repent and come fully back to Him. Some may say it's a sick perverted view of God to believe in a Hell, but its not OUR teaching, its not my pastors teaching - its in the Word of God. The Infallible Word, and we can't help but believe in it.

If there is no Hell, awesome because those friends that mock God and say He don't exist and do things in spite of Him - will be in Heaven.

If Hell does exist, awesome because I know I am right with God and obey His Word. But feel for those that never believed in it or spitefully mocked Him.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

You're right, AEQUANIMITAS43, Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, for the world is condemned already ~ He came to save that which was lost, to all who will believe on His name. His first coming was to save; His second will be to judge.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

japtaker, you're very welcome. You know I'm participating because this a very important topic you've written about and I believe God will get the glory all the way around. Heart to heart ~ JD.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

CalledToPreach, I appreciate your ministry here and that also, of Sold Out to Jesus. We are all in this together for the glory of our LORD, Jesus Christ. God bless you.


CalledToPreach profile image

CalledToPreach 4 years ago from Indiana

Something came to my mind today as I was thinking about this hub - Remember when Jesus said about the rich man - 'What would it profiteth a man, go gain the whole world and lose his soul?'. If our eternal destiny for all is heaven, then we can gain the whole world and still have our soul.

Thank you JD - sorry for the delay in reply, I have enjoyed reading your hubs and so glad to have you on my list. I agree we are in this together sister, stay strong and may Jesus continue to bless your ministry and give you even greater knowledge, wisdom and guidance in all you do.


Carneades-Georgia profile image

Carneades-Georgia 4 years ago from Augusta, Georgia

Admit that Yahweh-Yeshua speaks ever with a forked tongue: note all the contradictions in the Bible and its contradictions to reality anyway! Yahweh would have no divine right of divinity anyway to demand worship and a relationship with Him as Fr. Meslier's hub notes.

Misanthropes just made up the entire anthology from their whims!

All religious experience is merely ones own mind at work, and to postulate Him behind it,begs the question!

The unsubstantiated arguments from happiness-purpose and from angst actually make for Lamberth's non-genetic argument that theists themselves in effect affirm our naturalistic arguments about why they believe!

Reason saves, not that forever dead Galilean cult leader who disvalued reason with the demand for logicide- faith and telling his sheep to love him more than others.

By the way, the divine protection racket shows hate,not love!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

@Japtaker, It is good that the true gospel is being taught once again. Let it never be hijacked again by false teachings of eternal torment.


KierstinTree 4 years ago

This is the precise weblog for anybody who wants to find out about this topic. You understand so much its nearly arduous to argue with you (not that I really would want…HaHa). You positively put a brand new spin on a subject thats been written about for years. Great stuff, simply great!

seo


SeanPurple 4 years ago

I am tottaly a new fan of this blog! I love blogs and am glad to find a place where i will speak about those things!

seo company


Anon 4 years ago

AEQUANIMITAS43, I agree 100% with your comment about Judah's Daughter....she most definitely IS one of those that hinder people from coming to Christ!!


AEQUANIMITAS43 4 years ago

Thanks Anon I feel bad actually for Judah's Daughter. She fights for the mythical doctrine of hell over the ultimate saving grace of ALL mankind through Jesus Christ. Unfortunately she is not alone, too many have been brought into slavery to a doctrine which totally undermines God's love to bring people under the will of their church doctrine and enslave them in fear.

There is a new movie called hellbound coming out and I am not sure if the director is even a Christian but this topic has been heating up (excuse the pun) and it's not going away.

I take pleasure in the fact people are becoming wise to the scare tactics of the mainstream church and thinking for themselves through researching the bible's original translation and meaning.

Just think if hell loses it's grip on people how many people will leave "religion" and run to Jesus no matter how guilty they feel without being forced by intimidation.


Ian 3 years ago

A few words for those Christians who are so certain the Bible literally teaches eternal damnation.

'Everlasting' 'Forever and ever' : what do these terms mean? If you study a Strong's concordance you might become confused. The word for 'everlasting' in the hebrew doesn't mean 'without end'. It actually means 'until the designated or pre-ordained time is ended'. For example, there's a verse that says that Jonah was in the belly of fish forever, but the word used for forever actually meant that Jonah was in the belly of the fish for a pre-determined measure of time: actually 3 days. Jonah wasn't going to be released from the belly of the fish a moment sooner than the time allotted. That's what 'forever' actually means. The same holds true for 'everlasting'.

Another example is the verse that states that the smoke of Sodom and Gommorah's destruction ascends forever. It ascends until the allotted pre-determined time for it to ascend is over, and not a moment sooner. This concept appears again and again in the Bible, where the 'infinite' is seemingly applied to the 'finite', except that the 'infinite' is a misinterpretation. 'Until God says it will stop', is another way of looking at it.

Another mistranslation is the word 'unquenching' or 'unquenchable'. This should be quite obvious. This word in the original language means 'cannot be quenched', as in 'man cannot put it out, but it will burn until the job is done' . Again, 'until God puts it out' when the job of burning is done.

In this light, 'hellfire' and 'the lake of fire' can be temporal rather than eternal.

All this is to say, that even if Universalism is not true, 'Annihilationism' is likely the correct concept. Paul talks about man 'perishing' for his sin, the 'wages' of sin is 'death'. Death and Perish here, quite plainly mean 'destruction'. Destruction can never be eternal except that the results are eternal. In this sense, the conclusion of Sodom is eternal, not it's 'ascending smoke'. Sodom is 'eternally' destroyed. The sinner is 'eternally' dead. Paul, the writer of 3/4 of the New Testament teachers 'eternity in hell' not one single time. The only time he even mentions hell is when he talks about Christ's victory over it.

Then there those who will say the OT teaches there is a literal hell. I defy all commenters to show me where. In every single case that the word 'hell' shows in the OT, it is without exception the word 'sheol', which NEVER means hell. It ALWAYS means 'grave' , 'place of the dead', 'abode of the dead'. The latter has NO sense of it being an 'abode' of dead in conscious torment. Time and time again in Psalms and elsewhere in the OT, sheol is described as a place where there is no conscious thought or feeling, no mental awareness of anything. The word 'hell' was applied to 'sheol' most erroneously by the english translators. The OT absolutely does NOT teach an eternal hell.

Some will say, but didn't hell swallow up the rebels. NO, the grounds swallowed them up. Also, wherever fire from God consumed the living (old and new testaments), it was always temporal--they were burnt almost instantly.

Come one, come all and refute anything I've said. But only if you grab your Strong's concordance.


PAMITCHRUS 3 years ago

Japtaker great hub, and welcome to the truth of the Savior of the World !!!! Remembering always that this teaching of hell is the doctrine of devils and demons for God is Love and Love is not Hate !!!!


Electro-Denizen profile image

Electro-Denizen 3 years ago from Wales, UK

Well done for having the spiritual strength/integrity to step away from this idea of eternal Hell! In the original Greek, the word 'hell' doesn't even appear in Jesus' words, ever, in scripture - unbelievable but true. Check out the Catholic theologian Miceal Ledwith whose spent a life time of study on these subjects. Whole ministries are founded on ludicrous translations.

The idea of Hell comes from ancient Sumerian texts, Zoroastrian and of course Egyptian. In Zoroastrianism, their savior even comes from a virgin birth, incidentally...

After dying, everyone goes through times of assessing actions and so on, before progressing, and some people may even reside in strange hell-like places because of their own mind attachments. But other than that? Eternal Hell in the Christian tradition is hugely influenced by traditions that predate Christ by, in some cases, two thousand years.

The concept of Hell really appeals to people, because it's so visceral and is a great form of control!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

It brings me great joy when I see believers starting to understand the true nature of God, and discarding that pagan belief about hell.


One way 3 years ago

I would agree that hell does not last an eternity .... Because hell is the waiting place for the souls of sinful men before judgement as is paradise the waiting place for the righteous to await judgement... Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire ... The lake of fire is the eternal torment promised to sinful man as heaven is the eternal home of peace for righteous men...rev 20:10 helps us to understand that the lake of fire is forever and ever


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@One way, It is not "death and hell". It is death and the unseen, meaning the state of the grave. The Lake of Fire is the same Fire found in 1Cor 3, and in Heb 12:29. You hell believers need to seek the spiritual truth in scripture instead of your carnal minded, literal view and understanding of your false interpretations of the bible. You may be amazed as to what you find.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working