Yahweh is Evil - Slavery

Introduction

Just when I thought I was done talking about Christianity, the Bible and the monotheistic God I had to get sucked back in. Apparently there are still people on the internet who have either not read their Bibles or who are willing to compromise their own morals and ethics to such a degree that they can justify even the most wicked and horrific deeds spoken of in the Bible.

I wasn't sure what series to make this a part of at first but I feel it is important to explain to those who defend the Bible the level of moral depravity their scripture and their God condone. People continue to defend these scriptures instead of facing the reality that the books are flawed works of man and may contain deception or downright be wrong or making things up. If the Bible is an accurate depiction of the God Christians believe in than that God is evil.

In this hub we will look at Biblical slavery and how flawed and imperfect humans managed to figure out that slavery was wrong when apparently the God of the Bible thought it was perfectly fine.

Slavery is Slavery is Slavery

When it came to weakening my faith in Christianity few verses of scripture did more than the twenty first chapter of Exodus. I can recall sitting with mouth agape when reading through Exodus in its entirety for the first time. Here, immediately after the 10 Commandments that Christians still claim make up the foundation of American Law and society, God himself tells Moses that slavery is okay.

Of course most Christians are aware that slavery is depicted in the Bible and many even know that it was practiced by God's chosen people but I feel as though very few young Christians know that these verses are attributed not to Moses (the supposed writer of the Penteteuch) but to God himself. Yes it is God himself who tells Moses just how hard the Hebrews are allowed to beat their slaves. Here's a hint: ITS VERY HARD. Apparently the God of the Bible does not understand that owning another human being as property is morally wrong.

Apologists have been attempting to get out of this for a while now, especially in the post-slavery civilized world. See human secular morality figured out that slavery is wrong, it deprives a human being of their freedom, their identity and in many ways it was a way of dehumanizing foreigners. In Exodus and throughout the Bible we see prisoners of war and foreigners who are taken as slaves are treated far worse than Hebrews. For example in Exodus 21 God explains that Hebrew slaves are to go free after seven years, but foreign slaves can be your property for life.

The most typical apologetic trick is to claim that slavery as condoned by God is not the equivalent to the sort of slavery we practiced here in the USA up until the emancipation proclamation and the end of the American Civil War. Rather, they argue, it was a “kinder” and more “gentle” slavery. The problems with this argument are numerous but the most obvious is that it is a strawman argument. No critic of the Bible is pointing out that slavery is wrong MERELY because they are familiar with the American and European slave trade. Rather we have an understanding of what slavery means IN GENERAL, even if the slaves in question are being treated more as “indentured servants” as many Christian apologists claim.

Another reason that Biblical slavery cannot be justified by merely declaring it at as a more gentle form of slavery is that the Bible is quite clear that it is NOT gentle. GOD HIMSELF – the all loving and all knowing creator of everything, with abounding mercy and amazing grace, tells Moses that not only are the Hebrews allowed to beat the shit out of their slaves, but that as long as the slave manages to recover from his wounds in a few days time there is no penalty. Let me be clear that even if you believe this form of slavery to be more gentle than that which America once practiced IT STILL PERMITS PHYSICAL ABUSE up to and including injuries that almost result in the slave's death.

Exodus 21 also works as evidence that the God of the Bible has a very low opinion of women, as a Father can sell his Hebrew daughter into slavery but, unlike the male slaves, she doesn't get freed after seven years. That's right, a woman is a slave for life, as long as you properly purchase her from her Father. What reason can there be for this? What excuse can the apologists muster to explain the disparity between what God thinks about women and men when it comes to slavery. The fact that not only does Yahweh condone slavery but that he condones physical abuse of slaves and selling your daughter into lifelong servitude (while Hebrew men get freed after seven years) should make any truly moral person think twice.

This is not a situation where the apologist can merely shrug off the scripture as a description of human depravity for Exodus 21 depicts divine command. It is divine depravity and there is plenty of that to go around in the Bible. If we were to expand the topic to include the sins and barbarism of God's righteous cast of Biblical characters this hub might go on for miles.

Source

Understanding Morality

The other common apologetic tactic when presented with the horrors of Biblical slavery is for Christians to declare “Who are YOU to judge God's standards?” and “You don't even believe that morals are absolute, how can you say slavery is wrong?”.

I always find it funny when believers ask atheists how we can say something is immoral if we have no absolute morals, as though the only morals that truly matter or truly count or truly stick with us are the ones they declare absolute. This attitude makes a mockery of our ability to discern morals for ourselves, something that we use both on a societal level and as individuals to guide ourselves through the myriad of moral gray areas that believers and their myriad of gods say almost nothing meaningful or helpful about. For example some people believe that homosexuality, marijuana use, and gambling are all wrong, yet they are all legal and, in many other people's eyes, moral. Yet things that the Bible doesn't condemn at all, such as child abuse, are deeply wrong and we understand why.

I understand why slavery is immoral and that is why our ancestors didn't always know slavery was immoral - because it took figuring out, it took understanding, it took breaking free of social norms and social conditioning. The fact that the truth about how immoral slavery was unknown to humans or known to only some humans for centuries and centuries does not in anyway diminish that truth. For how long have humans known that the Earth was round? That truth has appeared in several cultures during several periods of human history and yet it wasn't until it was thoroughly figured out and disseminated that the truth of it became well known and was able to influence society.

The simplistic and barbaric notion of absolute moral truths handed down by some ancient God is an insult to the true complexity of our search for moral truths. Where does morality come from? How do we decide if something is immoral or moral? Reason, empathy, a sense of justice and a desire to be treated fairly ourselves.

Source

The “unerring” and unchanging moral absolutes that we get from religion tend to retard our progress rather than accelerate it. But when we are figuring morality out, determining together what kind of society we want to live in and what behaviors we will and won't tolerate, progress becomes both possible and in some sense inevitable. Yes the system is imperfect but I have yet to have a religious person explain to me why the moral absolutes of a God who condones slavery, commands genocide and demands worship under penalty of damnation are perfect.

Who am I to judge God's standards? If your God is real I am a sentient being capable of free will and making my own moral decisions, and that ability would be GOD GIVEN. Just as Galileo pondered why God would give man an ability to observe and reason and make discoveries unless he intended for us to use them I ponder why Christians, who believe in God, would ask an atheist what gives him the right to use his equally innate ability to reason and empathize in order to make moral discoveries.

Mental slavery isn't a good thing either
Mental slavery isn't a good thing either

Man's Word

Reading through the entire Bible a decade ago is what began my exodus out of Christianity and it started with the realization that the Bible was the work of MAN. Oh I still believed that some higher power, some God, existed, and perhaps had even influenced great men like Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, but now I was almost certain that true God had had nothing to do with the Bible. I had been taught that God was morally better, was better in every way in fact, than us humans. Yet in the Bible we have a vengeful God, an angry and unjust God, whose laws forbid bacon but allow slavery. Whose laws encourage child abuse and the stoning of witches but who forbid a man to touch his wife when she's on her period.

A God whose mercy involves sending an innocent man to die as a scapegoat for the sins of the world? What kind of moral person would allow an innocent man to take the fall for them? I say if Christians really loved Christ as much as they claim to they would cast down their salvation and thus lighten the burden on Jesus' shoulders and take responsibility for their own actions, their own sins, and their own fates.

A God who will damn all those who do not believe in him or love him based upon a single innocent mistake made by the imperfect beings he purposely created with the ability to disobey.

Conclusion

To those who are part of the cult it may be easy to rationalize away even the most heinous and disturbingly immoral aspects of the Bible. But for me, on the outside looking in, having escaped that religion, I see a bizarre death cult worshiping an evil and horrific God. I encourage anyone, believer or not, who might read this, to study their Bible and research how it was written and compiled.

There is a good reason why certain early gnostic sects of Christianity abandoned the Old Testament God believing him a wicked false god that Jesus had come to disown. It was just such a gnostic belief - a belief that there had to be nobler and more moral God above the petty human notion of God as a jealous, genocidal and incompetent buffoon – that I came to after reading the entirety of the Bible and beginning to study its origins.

Of course now I hold the position that Yahweh is entirely fictional for what I believe to be good reasons - and that all gods that humans have ever served are fictional until proven otherwise. Doubt is the first step on the journey to the truth, and the truth is more a journey than a definitive destination. Do not compromise what you understand right and wrong to be for the sake of an ancient book you were taught is true and don't fear that there are somehow dire consequences for your doubts. Any God who would damn you for disbelief, after all, is worthy of neither your fealty, your faith or your worship.

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Comments 137 comments

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 21 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

I know how hard it is to write anti-theist hubs, and I do appreciate your continued articles. All we can do is try to bring the truth to light. Maybe we will save a few people from the destructive mind control that calls itself religion.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 21 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks Austinstar,

Hopefully a Christian who hasn't read their Bible will come across this hub and be persuaded to actually read the damn thing. No better way to create an atheist than by getting a Christian to read and study the Bible.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 21 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

You got that right. Now if we could only get the other religions to read their holy books too. Instead of blindly following along from birth. I'm pretty sure the Qur'an is as messed up as the bible is.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 20 months ago

Ive been watching videos on youtube from armoured skeptic and logicked. Funny stuff, but the people they are up against...pretty scary at how brainwashed or otherwise blind to reality they are, all the while quoting verses that contradict about half of what they are saying.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 20 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Armoured Skeptic is one of my favorites, particularly his team up with Creationist Cat. There are so many Christians who haven't read their Bible or who will regurgitate apologetic excuses they read or heard somewhere as if just having an excuse at all somehow makes them immune no matter how bad an excuse it actually is.


Paladin_ profile image

Paladin_ 20 months ago from Michigan, USA

Indeed, hopefully hubs like this will encourage Christians to go back and actually READ their Bible -- not just the carefully selected parts that are spoon-fed to them in Sunday sermons, but the whole bloody, disastrous mess.

Of course, you and I both know that the Bible's condoning of slavery (both in the Old AND New Testaments) is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the malevolence of the Abrahamic God.

For example, I've been working on a project for some time now -- trying to compare all the evil committed in the Bible by Yahweh to all that was committed by Lucifer. But the list of offenses committed by God is so immense that it's taking forever to compile. So I simply go back to it from time to time. It's an ongoing thing...

Someday I'll likely publish a hub on the topic, but it's going to be difficult, summarizing all Yahweh's acts of evil and still maintaining my 1,000-word limit for my hubs!


Stargrrl 20 months ago

Isn't it true that we are under the NT now, and that Jesus changed everything when He came? Isn't the slavery issue dead and gone?


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 20 months ago from The English Midlands

Hi :)

As usual, I agree with you Titen-Sxull.

I often say that if God really existed then he would be horrified to know what awful things his followers believed he was capable of; supporting, condoning and even ordering such horrors as genocide, baby-murder, rape, slavery, etc.

And if he really was / is capable of such things, then why on earth are they praising him? Fear?

To Stargrrl I would say:

Isn't Jesus supposed to be an incarnation of God?

Isn't God supposed to be eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent and perfect?

To say that there is a new covenant and that the OT ideas are dead and gone makes no sense. It's the same God that we are still supposed to worship. This is an eternal, unchanging, all-knowing God. This is Jesus - Father, Son & Holy Spirit.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 20 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Not at all Stargrrl. While many Christians believe that Jesus did away with the old testament laws the Bible says differently.

In Matthew Chapter 5, after the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus states:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished..." (Matthew 5:17-18)

Also there are verses within the new testament which suggest that slaves should obey their masters. Ephesians 6:5-6 states:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

There is no scripture in the Bible which condemns slavery, only varying levels of condoning and regulating it.


Stargrrl 20 months ago

Wasn't voluntary slavery practiced in biblical times? Isn't that what this is talking about?

By voluntary slavery, I mean only that which was practiced by the Hebrews. I do not mean the gentiles.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 20 months ago from back in the lab again Author

It is possible that sometimes slavery was entered into voluntarily for some Hebrew slaves, I cannot rule that out. However the language of the Bible is clear that these people are YOUR PROPERTY, that you can buy a wife for your son, sell your daughter, etc. And it is clear that they can be made your property FOR LIFE and even be passed on to your children after you die (rather than them going free).

Also, it is clear that for prisoners of war it WAS NOT VOLUNTARY. Unlike their fellow Hebrews the Bible specifies that foreign slaves were YOUR PROPERTY FOR LIFE. This includes the verse I mentioned in one of the pictures on this hub, in Numbers 33, where after returning from a battle Moses tells them to kill the boys and women who are not virgins and keep the virgin girls for themselves. This is sex slavery and mass rape being practiced by one of the most "righteous" figures in the Bible.

That is why that section of the hub is called Slavery is Slavery is Slavery. Play all the semantic games you want, owning someone as property, as a slave, is wrong.


Buildreps profile image

Buildreps 20 months ago from Europe

You're doing a good job! In a restrained way you show what the bible actually tells us, evil things that Abrahamists (Chr+Jews) don't seem to have figured out yet. To be honest, I didn't know the bible was so evil, including the NT.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 20 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks Buildreps,

Reading the Bible in its entirety was a big part of why I left Christianity behind. Many Christians don't read their Bibles or if they do they rely on pastors and priests to spoon-feed them answers and interpretations that dim legitimate doubts and emotionally reinforce faith.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"I have yet to have a religious person explain to me why the moral absolutes of a God condones slavery, commands genocide and demands worship under penalty of damnation are perfect."

(1) God allows slavery to exist for the same reason he has allowed democide, war, pestilence, violence, abuse, strife, discord, animosity, hatred, bigotry, inequality, injustice, abject squalor and depravity to exist; so there can be no doubt in anyone's mind that man is not capable of ruling himself independent of his loving Creator.

(2) The dikaiocide of evil peoples is not murder, it's justice.

(3) The ungodly are narcissistic and evil; they cause only pain and suffering to the godly, the good. That's why these will have no share with the godly in Paradise.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Joseph....wut?

1 - So you are saying that in mankind's attempt to rule themselves independent of god...he said "F you" and pretty much gave us all death sentences?

Even if that isnt what you are saying, there are a plethora of people who worship god and obey the bible to the letter and yet they still probably die horrible deaths from any of the things you mentioned...

2 - Plenty of people would jump to disagree with you there. Now if there was an evil person in front of me who without a doubt went and slaughtered everyone in a child's daycare for fun, I would agree with you.

On the other hand, if you put a person in front of me, lets say a child, who hasnt done anything evil, and tell me to kill them because they will become evil in the future...that's murder. Plain and simple. They haven't done anything yet, so how is it justice? I also fail to see how slaughtering people is easier than showing them what is good and wrong from a GOD's perspective, but thats just me.

3 - The ungodly...as in atheists? Anyone who doesn't accept Jesus? Both? I mean either way it's a blatant lie, I just wanted to know what you meant.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

(1) "Even if that isn't what you are saying, there are a plethora of people who worship god and obey the bible to the letter and yet they still probably die horrible deaths from any of the things you mentioned"

Even if what you claim is 1000% accurate these godly ones will be resurrected to live eternally on Paradise earth because of their faithfulness.

(2) "On the other hand, if you put a person in front of me, lets say a child, who hasn't done anything evil, and tell me to kill them because they will become evil in the future...that's murder."

I'm sure all of their victims will be grateful for the choice you've made ...

(3) The ungodly are all those who choose to live their lives independent of their loving Creator. They are the reason why the world is filled to the brim with so much pain, suffering and turmoil.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

1. Okay...so its fine to justify excruciating cancer that kills people as slow as possible because they will be resurrected later on. You should be a public speaker to all the parents of children at St. Jude's...

2. I see you didn't address the latter half of the comment:

"They haven't done anything yet, so how is it justice? I also fail to see how slaughtering people is easier than showing them what is good and wrong from a GOD's perspective, but that's just me."

So, no explanation as to why its easier to slaughter children who have yet to do evil then? Which by the way I think any established court of law on the planet would call murder...and evil.

3. Baseless claim but I'll go along with it...how exactly does that prove they are ALL narcissistic, evil, and cause harm to good people?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

(1) Sign me up! I'd be happy to share with them how they'll be reunited with all of the loved ones they've lost in death when God recreates the Paradise in the very near future!

(2) Irrelevant. If the person in question will inevitably wreak unspeakable evil upon helpless victims in the future, how is it wrong to protect these innocents by executing the perpetrator before he has the opportunity to do his evil?

(3) Simple, just turn on any news channel. I guarantee you that 100% of the democide, war, pestilence, violence, abuse, strife, discord, animosity, hatred, bigotry, inequality, injustice, abject squalor and depravity you'll come across is being committed by the ungodly. How do I know this? Because the godly have nothing but love for their fellowman and, as a result, seek peace and pursue it:

“They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”

“I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”

“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”

“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” - “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Mmmkay...

To be honest Joseph, your logic is terrifying in and of itself.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

Why?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Link, you are wasting your time with this guy.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

I've been doing that a lot these past few days on 3 other hubs, one of them my own.

Maybe im used to it by now...


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 19 months ago from The English Midlands

To anyone who reads the Bible objectively it must be clear that 'God', as described therein, appears to order, condone or arrange some truly horrific acts.

However, it must also be clear that many who read the Bible do not do so objectively.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"it must also be clear that many who read the Bible do not do so objectively."

Indeed. Sometimes I wonder what the motivation is of people who deny the words right in front of their face and defend the indefensible cruelty and injustice in the Bible. For me such cruelty is what lead to realizing that the Bible was just a book written by men and its God was a product of their limited knowledge and poor moral understanding.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

You're not making sense. How is the just execution of evildoers, horrific?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"How is the just execution of evildoers, horrific?"

The Nazis viewed Jews as evil, as an enemy to be eradicated, they dehumanized them in order to make their mass executions seem reasonable, they excused genocide by exactly the sorts of claims you're making. The fact is that you have no reason to assume these people were anymore evil than you are, except for the word of an ancient tome of mythology that claims snakes and donkeys can talk and that a good God condones war, slavery, human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Even if these people were "evildoers" surely a God could redeem them or avoid having them become evil in the first place. You have suggested that your God was powerless in the face of their evil and had no choice but to destroy them or else he would have to violate their free will however this defense makes no sense whatsoever. Many of the people slaughtered in these stories were children and infants, in what way would it be a violation of their free will to remove this evil element you claim they possess? Surely these children were not destined to be damned no matter what, if that were the case why would God even allow them to be born? Why not revoke from these evil people the power to reproduce? You may say that doing so revokes their free will, but if you argue that case than so does SLAUGHTERING THEM. In fact taking the life of a person may be the ultimate removal of their free will, for if, as you say, the damned merely cease to be after death, than they no longer can make choices at all.

And of course God could have prevented ANY evil from ever contaminating his creation in such a way, simply by designing humans so that sin was not something that passed from generation to generation. If God had wiped away Adam and Eve's sin and decided not to curse all of creation all suffering and evil that resulted from that curse would be avoided.

Especially troubling is that the Bible suggests that, due to God's curse of creation, all people are born "evildoers", yet that does not stop Christians today from saying "God came into my life and changed me". Is it simply because they do this voluntarily that God performs these transformations? If that were the case why didn't God change Adam and Eve? Why did he, instead, curse them and all future generations?

So your argument boils down to "you either submit to God's love and transformative power or you deserve to be put to death" ... you claim to not believe in Hell and yet, in your own way, seem to hold to an "OBEY OR DIE" version of Christianity that is almost just as evil.


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 19 months ago from The English Midlands

Quote: Joseph O Polanco:

"@Trish. You're not making sense. How is the just execution of evildoers, horrific?"

Oh I am definitely making sense Joseph.

And you are definitely not coming to the Bible objectively :)

I don't need to explain because Titen-Sxull did that perfectly well above.

All these 'evildoers' were supposedly made by God in the image of God. And many were babies. What more need be said!


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

So you're saying God was responsible for the evils they CHOSE to commit?

And weren't weren't Elizabeth Bathory, Brian And David Freeman, Nelson Byrdwell, Edmund Kemper, Joshua Phillips, Willie Bosket, Laurie Tackett, Brenda Anne Spencer, Jon Venables, Robert Thompson, Jesse Pomeroy, Mary Bell, Andrew Golden, Mitchell Johnson, Jamie Rouse, Barry Loukaitis, Talat Pasha, Margaret Sanger, Josef Mengele, Reinhard Heydrich, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Heinrich Himmler, Adolf Eichmann, Kim Il Sung, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Emperor Hirohito, Nero, Caligula, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Leopold II of Belgium, Tomas de Torquemada, Mao Zedong, Ivan the Terrible, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Vlad Dracula once babies too?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

" if that were the case why would God even allow them to be born? "

To show you and the rest of humanity that it cannot successfully govern itself independent of their Creator.

" If God had wiped away Adam and Eve's sin and decided not to curse all of creation all suffering and evil that resulted from that curse would be avoided."

Actually it would create a much, much bigger problem. One you have yet to consider.

"So your argument boils down to "you either submit to God's love and transformative power or you deserve to be put to death""

Actually it's more like "you either submit to God's love and transformative power or choose to be evil and, in the end, forfeit your life."


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

So if one does nothing but good deeds until the day they die but refuses to submit to gods love, are they branded evil joseph?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

Problem is that "good" and "bad" are meaningless terms once you take God out of the picture.

Here's an example. Many try to define evil as any act which causes harm to another. If that's an accurate definition then abortion should be considered a terrible evil but, surprisingly, a lot of Atheists defend a woman's supposed right to murder their unwanted child (only in the first few weeks, though, which actually eviscerates their argument).

On the other hand, God makes it very clear, via the Bible, that anyone who gets a medical or a surgical abortion is a murderess. (Exodus 21:22, 23)


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

And yet, no qualms about drowning everybody...

Extending your logic about abortion a little further, basically any guy that jacks off is a mass child killer and is evil to the tenth degree regardless of their faith. That's a lot of highschool boys going to jail...

Back to my question that i have to completely overhaul to get a simple response. Lets assume this person is a hermit. They wake up, they eat, do chores, go to sleep and repeat until the day they die and nothing else. They have never heard of the christian god so in turn does not submit to his love. Are they automatically branded evil and deserve death?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"To show you and the rest of humanity that it cannot successfully govern itself independent of their Creator."

God's idea to show humanity it cannot govern itself is to command genocide? Brilliant.

"Actually it's more like "you either submit to God's love and transformative power or choose to be evil and, in the end, forfeit your life.""

But you have defended the abhorrent morality of the Bible which says that people who work on the Sabbath are to be killed. Adulterers are to be stoned. Alcoholic children are not to be helped, they aren't to stage an intervention, they are to KILL THEM. Many times in the Bible God takes an active roll in punishments, in the taking of lives. He brings plagues, causes famines, and sows evil.

There is no love to be found in this God. Why would I submit to such a monster? Especially when no evidence for it exists.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

"Extending your logic about abortion a little further, basically any guy that jacks off is a mass child killer and is evil to the tenth degree regardless of their faith"

Biology 101: Sperm are not children. Try again.

"Lets assume this person is a hermit. They wake up, they eat, do chores, go to sleep and repeat until the day they die and nothing else."

If a person dies without having knowledge of God, He will resurrect them so that they do have the opportunity to learn about him and make the decision whether or not to obey him. (Acts 24:15)


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"God's idea to show humanity it cannot govern itself is to command genocide? Brilliant."

Strawman. Try again.

"But you have defended the abhorrent morality of the Bible"

Argumentum assertio. You're getting ahead of yourself. You've never proven that God's actions were immoral. You need to actually PROVE that.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Sperm are not children...

No, they're just the living substance that is the primary requirement to create a child, which was the point.

Anyway, now that you've answered that, lets backtrack a bit. Same hermit, same daily routine (as in nothing) until they die, but they knew of the biblical god from their parents as a child but did not submit to gods love. Is the hermit branded evil?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"Strawman. Try again."

You're going to have to explain to me how this is a strawman. I said God could prevent evil people from ever being born and thus prevent them from the need to be killed en mass. You said God wouldn't do that because he wants to show people they need him to govern them. So my answer is not a strawman.

"You need to actually PROVE that."

I have, I've given you a working definition of evil. AND you have yet to give me an excuse that can excuse acts of genocide, human sacrifice, barbarism, and slavery because there is no excuse that can excuse those. They are indefensible positions to hold. So you can demand I "prove it" all you want, it makes you look absolutely crazy. The belief murdering children is okay as long as you establish they are "evil" children is a prelude to the most evil genocidal acts imaginable. You may as well be a holocaust denialist or a Jihadist Joe, your morals appear THAT repugnant when you argue this way.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Yes--the hermit would be branded evil. We are all evil sinners, and we all are destined for hell unless we accept Jesus as our personal savior. The hermit would not be exempt.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

"Same hermit, same daily routine (as in nothing) until they die, but they knew of the biblical god from their parents as a child but did not submit to gods love. Is the hermit branded evil?"

It could go either way. Jehovah could decide to resurrect him or not.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Titen

Actually what you said was, "God's idea to show humanity it cannot govern itself is to command genocide?" There's your Strawman since I've never made such a claim.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Titen

Except that the dikaiocide of evil peoples is not murder, it's justice. You've yet to prove otherwise.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Star, i hope you realize you're stating god sends people who have literally done nothing wrong to hell.

Joseph, now back to my original question. Someone who only focuses on helping people/the betterment of humanity until the day they die (good deeds), but they do not submit to gods love. Are they branded evil and deserve death?


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Link, even if the hermit did stuff for other people, he would not be sinless. There would be times he cursed, lied, or cheated, or thought bad thoughts. That stuff alone can send you to hell, regardless of the good you do others. God is NOT impressed! You must give your heart over to Him!


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

Again, if a person dies without having knowledge of God, He will resurrect them so that they do have the opportunity to learn about him and make the decision whether or not to obey him. (Acts 24:15)


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Star

The Hellfire doctrine is a perverse Antichrist mendacity that defames God. As a God of justice and love he would never prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked: http://bit.ly/17fVMYm

Stop creating more Atheists by preaching this folderol.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Star, can you explain to me why a good God would design a system where people are DAMNED BY DEFAULT. Seems like a system an evil God would cook up.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

I merely shortened the claim. If you'd like to explain what your real claim is and why it does not boil down to what I said be my guest. Perhaps you can point out where my summary diverges from the gist of your actual argument.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"As a God of justice and love he would never prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked:"

*tongue in cheek*

Prove it


Stargrrl 19 months ago

He didn't design a faulty system! He gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose, and they chose wrong! They let sin into the world, not God. Yeah, He could have stopped it, but He didn't. He was so evil that He sacrificed His own son just to bring us back to Him? Only a loving God could continue to want to be with us after what we have done! He is merciful!


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Welp im done. Tag out, snack break, nap time, Recess.

Think i will just go back to reading responses.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"They let sin into the world, not God."

You just contradicted yourself AND the Bible in one sentence. A second ago you said: "He gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose" meaning that God designed a system by which sin had AT LEAST a 50/50 chance of entering the world. Of course when we actually look at it creating beings with the ability to make their own choices, is, by definition, a FAULT, an IMPERFECTION as it would inevitably lead to the beings making choices that are independent of and disobedient to the will of God (in other words SIN).

You contradict the Bible, which is quite clear that God's curse after the Fall is what allows sin to taint the whole of creation and not just Adam and Eve. God is supposedly all powerful and all knowing, thus he holds all responsibility for everything in creation and no amount of Free Will would change that. God could have said "Adam and Eve because of your sin I am going to cut you off and start all over" or "I will forgive you since you made a mistake without knowing the consequences or the difference between Good and Evil" but no God curses all of creation and all people to be born pre-damned. It is a stupid plan from a clearly fictional God.

"He sacrificed His own son just to bring us back to Him?"

Please explain to me what Jesus actually sacrificed. You, and so many other Christians, are confused about what the term sacrifice means in the context of Jesus. It means a ritual human sacrifice is the basis for your religion. Jesus/God never actually gave anything up in the other sense of the word sacrifice. When you phrase it the way you did it sounds like God permanently lost his son and that Jesus permanently lost his life, but neither of those things actually happened.

"Only a loving God could continue to want to be with us after what we have done!"

Only a sycophantic coward would want to be with God after what he has done, if we take the Bible seriously that is.

What a terrible sin when we ate a piece of fucking fruit. Seriously, that's the sin that God is being MERCIFUL to forgive? God catches the first humans with their hand in the cookie jar and suddenly we're all damned? Horribly immoral and stupid.

"He could have stopped it, but He didn't."

So is he evil or incompetent? Because you've just admitted defeat in this statement.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Point, Set, and Match goes to Titen-Sxull!

I love it when a rebuttal destroys the competition.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"Prove it"

So glad you asked! With respect to the disobedient ancient Israelites, Jehovah God promised to 'chastise them to the proper degree.' (Jer 46:28) This means, obviously, that his punishment would fit the sins they committed; it would be just and proper.

As far as your Strawman is concerned, you asked, " if that were the case why would God even allow them to be born?" To which I responded, "To show you and the rest of humanity that it cannot successfully govern itself independent of their Creator."

Where do I even hint at genocide?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"when we actually look at it creating beings with the ability to make their own choices, is, by definition, a FAULT"

So you'd prefer to be a mindless ape ... I get it ...


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"God could have said "Adam and Eve because of your sin I am going to cut you off and start all over""

Which would have created an even bigger problem, one you've yet to identify.

"or "I will forgive you since you made a mistake without knowing the consequences or the difference between Good and Evil""

First off, Adam and Eve knew that death was the opposite of life and they were both very clear that eating of the forbidden fruit would lead to their death. Next, if God ignored his own law why would anyone obey any of his laws?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"Please explain to me what Jesus actually sacrificed"

A while back I wrote a comprehensive essay which answers this very question: http://bit.ly/19lpefW (If you prefer I can have its contents displayed here as a comment.)


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

" This means, obviously, that his punishment would fit the sins they committed; it would be just and proper."

Non-sequitur. Simply because God says he will be fair to the ancient Israelites does not mean he will be fair to all peoples at all times. Also, the punishments in the Bible are far from fair, the punishment for working on the Sabbath is death. And no I don't need to PROVE that this is an unfair punishment - all anyone need to do is imagine themselves in the position, or someone they love in the position, we see that we would not put people to death for working on a Saturday.

"Where do I even hint at genocide?"

It is the very context of the discussion, or did you forget the sins of your God?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"So you'd prefer to be a mindless ape"

False dichotomy that assumes that we are either mindless or have free will and that there are no nuances in between the two, no other positions.

I am not saying that God should have created beings unable to make their own choices, merely pointing out that it's a guaranteed recipe for behavior that goes against God's will. God's reaction to these independent choices is the real problem here, pre-damning all humanity when they turn out to be flawed in the exact way he has designed them to be.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"they were both very clear that eating of the forbidden fruit would lead to their death"

They were not informed of the larger consequences God had in mind, such as cursing the rest of creation. The only consequences told to them are consequences that affect ONLY THEM. Furthermore as they are ignorant of good and evil prior to eating the fruit they cannot possibly understand that their action is evil, AT BEST they can comprehend that it is disobedient.

"Next, if God ignored his own law why would anyone obey any of his laws?"

You've made one of my main points about the Bible for me, thank you. God is meant to be loving, but commits genocide, condones slavery, and propagates strife, evil, and war throughout the Old Testament. So why would we follow any of his moral precepts when they are so morally abhorrent? Why would anyone want to obey the grotesque laws of such a monster, especially when the simple ones, the ones about love and mercy, he does not follow himself.

"A while back I wrote a comprehensive essay which answers this very question"

I had to skim through the essay because the website did not want me to view it due to "inappropriate language" or something to that effect. However your answer appears to be that God lost his son for three days. Nothing was permanently lost, of course, and God knew he was going to raise Jesus all along so there were no risks whatsoever. Of course Jesus was not dead for three days, he died on Friday afternoon (or morning depending on which Gospel you read) and rose again on Sunday morning. Jesus was dead for a day and a half, two days at most, and of course it wasn't permanent.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"Simply because God says he will be fair to the ancient Israelites does not mean he will be fair to all peoples at all times."

Alright then, prove he hasn't been fair in the judgments he's made or the sentences he's carried out.

"we see that we would not put people to death for working on a Saturday."

That's not evidence, that's consuetude. You still need to PROVE that such a judgment is evil. That or retract your claim.

"It is the very context of the discussion, or did you forget the sins of your God?"

Argumentum assertio. You've yet to PROVE God has committed a single evil.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"False dichotomy that assumes that we are either mindless or have free will and that there are no nuances in between the two, no other positions."

Such as?

"I am not saying that God should have created beings unable to make their own choices, merely pointing out that it's a guaranteed recipe for behavior that goes against God's will."

If that's accurate, why didn't Jesus rebel against God the same way Adam and Eve did?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"They were not informed of the larger consequences God had in mind, such as cursing the rest of creation."

Irrelevant. They both had EXTREMELY good reasons not to disobey God.

"God is meant to be loving, but commits genocide"

Argumentumad nauseum. Again, dikaiocide is not genocide. Try again.

"God is meant to be loving, but [] condones slavery, and propagates strife, evil, and war throughout the Old Testament"

Argumentum ad nauseum. Again, God allows slavery to exist for the same reason he has allowed democide, war, pestilence, violence, abuse, strife, discord, animosity, hatred, bigotry, inequality, injustice, abject squalor and depravity to exist; so there can be no doubt in anyone's mind that man is not capable of ruling himself independent of his loving Creator.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"Nothing was permanently lost, of course, and God knew he was going to raise Jesus all along so there were no risks whatsoever."

You are yet to be a father so you can't see how naïve this retort actually is. When you do become a dad, like me, you'll finally understand how seeing a son being persecuted, humiliated, vilified, beaten and tortured to death was the extraordinary sacrifice it was for both God and Christ.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

God cannot suffer permanent emotional pain can he? If he's a perfect and complete being, and especially if he knows the ultimate outcome is for him to raise Jesus up, than he does not at all relate to how you or I would react.

For God it is more like performing that magic trick where the woman is sawed in half, God knows the death of Jesus will be a mere illusion to be undone on Sunday morning with a flick of his magic wand.

This is why when I began to gain perspective and distance on Christianity I found Christ far more compelling as a character if he was merely human. His grief in Gethsemane in particular is an amazing scene only if he is a mere mortal human being who believes he has been chosen by God for this. God, however, has no reason to be even remotely worried, all pain and loss is temporary for him.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

@Titen, how ridiculously arrogant of you to claim victory over me, when the debate is not over. Yes, its your hub, but you don't get to be the judge on your own debate. You have not defeated me yet!

God allowed His son to be whipped, stripped naked, and nailed to a cross, and then anguish for 6 hours! You claim that Jesus's death does not count or something, because God raised Him up and placed Him at His right hand. You once told me it was a "promotion." It wasn't a promotion, because although God abandoned Jesus for some time, Jesus never stopped being God's son. The point is that Jesus defied death by being raised. Satan has power over the world, and death is the end of it for people, the wages of sin.

Jesus took the punishment for us! Imagine being on trial for something, and the judge actually pays your fine and serves your sentence for you! That is what Jesus did. The sacrifice of animals was something of importance to God, for whatever reason, and shedding blood. So when God sent His only son to suffer in OUR place, that was the only acceptable sacrifice that could erase our sin. Joseph already made many of the good points I was going to make, so I won't reiterate them, though he took the words right out of my mouth at times. Thanks Joseph, even if you didn't do it for me.

God is NEITHER evil nor incompetent. It's so twisted how you don't understand this! Obviously, you fail to understand the magnitude of disobeying God. Adam and Eve had ONE rule: don't eat the fruit. ONE rule. And they couldn't obey. In a way, I can see how God would have to punish them. I wasn't going to restate what Joseph said, but he was right in saying that God has to follow through on what He says. No one would respect Him if He just said, "Oh, okay, let's try again." This is where discipline breaks down. But we know today that God is the keeper of His promises, and that when He says it, it happens! God is faithful, but a judge. And He is a FATHER. A father who had to discipline His children, and continue to discipline many more.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"If he's a perfect and complete being, and especially if he knows the ultimate outcome is for him to raise Jesus up, than he does not at all relate to how you or I would react."

Except that we were made in his image, and so, are able to reflect many aspects of his personality. And then there's what we read at Psalm 78:41 -

"Again and again they put God to the test,

And they grieved the Holy One of Israel."

So you see, far from being icy or unimpassioned, your Creator has tender feelings:

"I will mention Jehovah’s acts of loyal love,

The praiseworthy acts of Jehovah,

Because of all that Jehovah has done for us,+

The many good things he has done for the house of Israel,

According to his mercy and his great loyal love.

For he said: “Surely they are my people, sons who will not be disloyal.”*+

So he became their Savior.+

During all their distress it was distressing to him.+

And his own personal messenger* saved them.+

In his love and compassion he repurchased them,+

And he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.+" -Isaiah 63:7-9


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"The point is that Jesus defied death by being raised."

Something that would be easy for an all powerful being that can create Universes.

"Satan has power over the world, and death is the end of it for people, the wages of sin."

If Jesus defied death and won a victory over Satan why on Earth is Satan still in charge and God still losing the war? Of course its a war that God can only lose by choice, making Satan essentially in the employ of God so that he can pretend to claim some great victory at the end of time. If Jesus had actually saved anyone wouldn't the world had been transformed and the kingdom have descended while Jesus was still on Earth? Even Jesus said that he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, yet they're bones are dust.

"and the judge actually pays your fine and serves your sentence for you! That is what Jesus did"

Your analogy is confused. God is the judge, Jesus is more like your defense attorney who, after you receive the death sentence, offers to take your sentence. There are a few problems with this analogy though, namely how disgustingly immoral the system of judgement is. God is the judge, jury and executioner and has decreed that, according to your view of Christianity at least, all people regardless of what sins they have committed are deserving of death and eternal torture. As Joe Polanco has pointed out this makes God into a monster, one of the few points Joe and I agree on. Also in this courtroom everyone is guilty FROM BIRTH, they have no choice in the matter. The only choice they do have is to allow this scapegoat, Jesus, to take their place.

But of course Jesus isn't working against the evil judge, he's working FOR the evil judge. Accepting such a scapegoat is immoral, allowing an innocent man, be he divine or not, to take responsibility for what I've done? I would never.

"It's so twisted how you don't understand this!"

In the Bible God condones slavery, read the hub you are commenting on Star. Slavery is evil. So God condones an evil act. Read your Bible, it is not the only evil act he commits or condones. God commits and commands acts of genocide and slaughter, he condones the taking of sex slaves as spoils of war, he accepts human sacrifices, he set up a system where everyone is damned from birth, and if you take the Bible literally he has prepared a Lake of Fire to burn all those who do not bow before him for eternity. He is a celestial dictator of the most monstrous kind.

"This is where discipline breaks down."

No one would respect him if he showed a little mercy? So the only other choice is to completely curse his whole creation, create cancer, famine, drought, earthquakes and the system by which people are sinners from birth. There is another way to lose respect, and that's by being a completely evil asshole. I can hardly even imagine a being more evil than the Biblical God. But please, if you can think of what a more evil being would be like please present it.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"your Creator has tender feelings"

Which are apparently hurt by the dumbest things. Working on Saturdays, sleeping with the wrong person, not cutting up a bull the proper way when we sacrifice it. The sort of things we'd expect of a fictional God from the near-east.

"The many good things he has done for the house of Israel"

This raises an interesting question, how many good things has God done in the Bible? My guess is if you put the evil ones next to the good the evil list would stretch on at least four or five times as long.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

I can think of a more evil being. Imagine there is a God who created you and loves you very much. Now also imagine another force that spends thousands of years spinning webs of deceit. It has been cast out of heaven, the presence of a Holy God, and seeks out to take as many people with it to hell as possible. So it convinces you that God is a horrible monster, who has committed monstrosities such as genocide and condoning slavery. It is ruthless, unstoppable, and truly evil. Its lies convince you that such a God does not exist at all, and if He did--He wouldn't be worth worshipping or believing. Then when you die---you get to spend eternity apart from God, thanks to this horrible force that had you hook, line, and sinker. All that is good is withdrawn from you, and you realize you have been duped--but it is too late.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

" who has committed monstrosities such as genocide and condoning slavery."

So this being is the Bible?

You do understand that God does these things in the Bible right? My opinion of God is based on his depiction by those who believe in him, the scriptures primarily.

Satan is powerless without God allowing him to act. Satan also can't send anyone to Hell, the Bible is quite clear that God is the final judge, that God created and maintains Hell. So you can't blame Satan for Hell or for anyone going to Hell.

A Holy God would not have an eternal torture pit.

"Imagine there is a God who created you and loves you very much."

Now imagine this God allowed this evil being you've described to do all of this and did not stop him for thousands and thousands of years.

Remember the story of Job, Satan comes to God and God gives Satan permission to kill Job's children and torment Job who is an INNOCENT MAN.

You have failed to propose a more evil being.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"how many good things has God done in the Bible?"

For one he created the universe and all of the life it contains. He also gives you the freedom to question his very existence and behave towards him like an all-round dingbat :)


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"He also gives you the freedom to question his very existence and behave towards him like an all-round dingbat "

This really did bring a smile to my face, that's funny.

In regards to good and evil deeds of God it strikes me as odd that Christians bring Satan into things, they blame him for a laundry list of relatively minor offenses, temptations, possessions, etc. all unaware that lurking in the Old Testament are horrific evils their God has committed. For a moment in my late teens I wanted to consider myself a Gnostic Christian, I wanted to hold onto Jesus and discard the old testament God as the Demi-Urge, the evil God that Jesus had come to supplant. Of course I later found the passages where Jesus explicitly states that he has not come to supersede the original Mosaic Law.

I took a new age view, for a while, in which Jesus was merely a man offering people an example by which they could achieve their own spiritual enlightenment, their own version of salvation. This was at a time when I was exploring Buddhism as well and thought I could merge the two. I posited that when Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me" that he was actually saying "I" as in the concept of "I". Anyone who made that statement became the way and needed no middleman to reach God.

For me there is no way to reconcile the evil of the God of the Bible. Trust me Joe when I say that I spent years trying to believe but found Christianity morally bankrupt and without the evidence necessary to be convinced it was actually true. Does it not strike you as odd that God needs apologists in the first place? If such a being existed why would there be any doubt as to which God it was or whether there was a God at all? Why would God allow that question to remain unanswered.

the Universe's reigning Hide and Seek champion.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

A tad off topic, but personally Titen I would be interested in your response to a counter hub that addresses one of your earlier quotes here, and possibly the other recent hubs by this interesting fellow.

Not sure about posting the direct link, but here's the name of it: The Atheist Who Could Be Called A Twisted Sister.

Its based off a question Austin asked that had a quote from you from earlier on in this hub, so i guess i can't call it a real counter hub.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks for the heads up Link, I'll take a look.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Oh man, is that guy writing a bout us again? What a troll.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

I'm not finding it, could you post the link, Link? :-)


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Here you are Austinstar http://feenix.hubpages.com/hub/The-Atheist-Who-Cou...

I had to scroll down in my feed to find it, it didn't show up in the search feature.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

useless search thingy. Thanks!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

It really amazes me that black people can support the bible which is the biggest supporter of slavery ever. I don't understand how women support religions that belittle them either. I can only imagine it's the Stockholm syndrome affecting them all.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Indeed Austinstar, it is also ironic that Abolitionists used the Bible to condemn slavery and slave masters and racists used the Bible to support it. The Bible, of course, never condemns slavery in the slightest but even in places where the Bible doesn't contradict itself believers in the Bible will still come up with differing interpretations. This to me is strong evidence that all of these people get their morals internally, not externally from God.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

It is strong evidence. If I should ever have to go on trial for anything, I sure hope I get a jury of my peers - atheists and scientists! I would hate to go to prison based on "feelings" and a 2,000 year old immoral code.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Titen, I eagerly await that new hub-series you said you were going to put out, back on my hub, regarding some of the topics we discussed. Where are they?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"Where are they?"

I have quite a few topics I want to do and as always I have trouble choosing which one to actually do next.

Right now I have plans for a hub about Atlantis, a hub about Sea Serpents (both of them part of my Into the Weird series), a series of hubs about fictional religions (such as HP Lovecraft's Old Ones, the religious beliefs of characters in JRR Tolkiens Lord of the Rings, etc) and the series about the harm Christianity causes.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Are you sure that Christianity causes harm, and not people? Their choices? Doesn't Islam frown upon homosexuality too? If you ask me, it is all Satan's lies and deceit.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Of course it is ultimately people who do the harm, but beliefs motivate actions.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"The Bible, of course, never condemns slavery"

Except for the fact that kidnapping anyone and then selling them was punishable by death. (Exodus 21:16)


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"horrific evils their God has committed"

This is no more persuasive than you claiming people who love chocolate are evil ...

All you've expressed is your personal opinion, nothing more.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Cherry picking of the highest order from the very chapter where God openly condones and regulates slavery.

It's a fallacy to say that God opposes slavery in one instance therefore he condemns it all around, especially from the very chapter where he clearly endorses it. There's no reason for you to be an outright liar all of a sudden Joe. The verse does not condemn any part of the institution of slavery, rather it condemns a certain method of someone becoming a slave, kidnapping victims could not be sold as slaves.

"All you've expressed is your personal opinion, nothing more."

Well of course its my opinion, but I have backed that opinion up so your analogy makes little sense. I mean for one thing it compares acts of genocide, often perpetuated against children, as innocuous. I already gave you a working definition of evil, the fact that you reject it does not stop me from making moral judgments based upon it. I am not beholden to your silly demands that morality be objectively grounded in a magical all powerful being or else it doesn't count.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Off topic again but I have to ask Titen...

In regards to that hub earlier, its not just me right?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

@Link & Titen - I have reported that other hub, no, it's not just you, Link. I don't know why some people can't have a real back and forth discussion without resorting to name-calling and outright lies about others. But I'm done with that group and I have a list next to my computer to never communicate at ALL with these people.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"In regards to that hub earlier, its not just me right?"

I agree. It seems like we are stuck in the never ending cycle of having to point out the evils of the Biblical God and then suffer through the backwards defenses of those willing to compromise their own decency and morals.

This would all be quite easy if people were honest with themselves about what the Bible actually says but instead we get would-be apologists, who must apologize for the evils of an indefensible God or who obfuscate those evils under pages and pages of nonsense in order to avoid punishment and to bolster those who have fleeting doubts into deeper blinder faith.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

I know! I simply suggested that the holy bible be renamed and everyone seemed to go insane over that. You would think I had suggested burning it or destroying it somehow.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

As Im still following the comments, another interesting piece might pop up soon based off of what you said towards the end Titen.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

I haven't been paying attention, maybe I'll check it out later. There's only so much stupid I can take before I feel the urge to tell people to go (expletive deleted) themselves, a line I try not to cross here on hubpages. The more I have to remove swearing from my comments and the harder I have to work to reword things in a friendly way the more I am inclined to give up and just walk away.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

The more I think about it, that hub was and is a personal attack on the both of us, Titen. But, whatever, (sigh). I try not to feed the trolls, I need to make a sign for my home office to remind me.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

I don't really mind it myself, I went there and spoke my piece and they proceeded to put their collective feet in each other's mouths. The way I see it its a shining example of how wrong they are now in comment form. The longer they talk the crazier they make themselves out to be, so in the end I bowed out gracefully, it looks like they haven't done any better in my absence.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

I feel like I am in the best group on hp for sure. Titen, I admire your patience with these people. You go above and beyond in the fight against stupidity. You da man!


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 19 months ago from The English Midlands

Joseph O Polanco: 'Problem is that "good" and "bad" are meaningless terms once you take God out of the picture.'

I disagree. I think that, generally, mankind has a fair sense of morality regardless. And let's face it, with or without religion there is plenty of both morality and immorality. Furthermore, if we consider what most people would consider immoral - child murder, genocide, rape, slavery, etc. ... well, God in the Bible condones it. So where is the logical argument here?

*

Joseph O Polanco: 'God makes it very clear, via the Bible, that anyone who gets a medical or a surgical abortion is a murderess.' (Exodus 21:22, 23)

Well, I do not, for the most part, condone abortion. However, as with most moral matters, this is not a black and white issue but there are shades of grey. What if the birth would cause the death of the mother so that she couldn't care for other children? What if the child would suffer immeasurably if it lived? There are many 'what ifs?' However, if there is no good reason, then I am against.

But humans are humans. God is God. I am, therefore, appalled at God insisting on the murder of suckling Amalekite babies and even the slaughter of unborn babies in their mothers' wombs. How could such a hypocritical God have the audacity to condemn abortion?

However, I don't actually believe that 'God' did any of this. 'He' was used by the Bible writers as a scapegoat. It's a story.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Oho, the interesting piece I mentioned showed up Titen.

Its rather stunning actually. I do and don't recommend at the same time.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

That interesting piece turned out to be a big pile of steaming crap! LOL


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Titen

"kidnapping victims could not be sold as slaves."

Which necessarily means that the slave trade that lasted for centuries in colonial America found no moral support in the Holy Bible.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

"if we consider what most people would consider immoral - child murder, genocide, rape, slavery, etc. ... well, God in the Bible condones it."

Where? Chapters and verses if you kindly would :)


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

" I am, therefore, appalled at God insisting on the murder of suckling Amalekite babies and even the slaughter of unborn babies in their mothers' wombs."

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Elizabeth Bathory, Brian And David Freeman, Nelson Byrdwell, Edmund Kemper, Joshua Phillips, Willie Bosket, Laurie Tackett, Brenda Anne Spencer, Jon Venables, Robert Thompson, Jesse Pomeroy, Mary Bell, Andrew Golden, Mitchell Johnson, Jamie Rouse, Barry Loukaitis, Talat Pasha, Margaret Sanger, Josef Mengele, Reinhard Heydrich, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Heinrich Himmler, Adolf Eichmann, Kim Il Sung, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Emperor Hirohito, Nero, Caligula, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Leopold II of Belgium, Tomas de Torquemada, Mao Zedong, Ivan the Terrible, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Vlad Dracula once suckling babies too?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

Did I say that it did have a basis in the Bible?

Our discussion was never about the historically recent translatlantic slave trade. Smoke and mirrors to change what the topic is about doesn't help your position. So now you've cherry picked a verse to lie about what the Bible says and doubled-down on your deception by changing the subject to something we weren't talking about and pretending its what you meant to say all along.

The only place I've even mentioned recent slavery was in a comment to Austinstar about the fact that the Bible was used both by Abolitionists and slave owners to uphold both completely different positions.

The actual issue at hand in our discussion is the immorality condoned by the God of the Bible, including the ownership of people as property (slavery). If you can't admit to yourself the implications of a God who condones slavery I have to wonder about your internal mental state. You seem so ready to disregard Hell as an "antichrist mendacity" but will not admit that the Biblical authors may have put the endorsement of slavery into God's mouth (as in they made that shit up)? Why compromise your own human decency to tow the party line?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"The actual issue at hand in our discussion is the immorality condoned by the God of the Bible, including the ownership of people as property (slavery)."

Which, in your exalted opinion, you feel is immoral. I'm still waiting for you to actually prove it ...


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

I did.

I gave you a working and basic definition of what evil or immoral behavior/actions entail based upon facts regarding a person's psychological, social and physical well being.

"you feel is immoral"

Do YOU feel that slavery, as put forth in the Bible, is immoral? Answer carefully because whether or not I approve anymore comments of yours on this hub will depend on it.


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 19 months ago from The English Midlands

Joseph, it is true that all people who have done bad things were once babies. But how this can be used as an excuse for God killing unborn and suckling babies is beyond me. If anyone else did this (today) it would be considered a truly heinous crime, and rightly so, yet it's ok for the loving creator father god to do this. It is beyond despicable and it is unbelievable that anyone would consider it acceptable behaviour.


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 19 months ago from The English Midlands

Chapter and verse? No. I'm not going to go searching the Bible - and there's no need. There are plenty of easily-found examples:

Genocide - one example is the Amalekites. Another the Midianites.

Baby killing - the Amalekites and David's child.

Rape - Ok, here's chapter and verse: Numbers 31:18 'all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.'

Slavery - that's what this hub is about.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

Unlike you or I or any other human being for that matter God has the ability to see the future with perfect accuracy. Now, if God knew that certain individuals would inevitably grow up to be evil would you prefer he let them victimize countless innocents? Where's the justice in that?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"Now, if God knew that certain individuals would inevitably grow up to be evil would you prefer he let them victimize countless innocents? Where's the justice in that?"

So God's only two options are to either let them be evil or kill them? As I've said repeatedly an all powerful God has more options than that and a God more benevolent than humans would do everything in his power not to harm the evil people. Because remember they weren't evil by choice, they were born that way because of God's curse on humanity.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"Unlike you or I or any other human being for that matter God has the ability to see the future with perfect accuracy"

Mmkay. Yet you said this to me before Joseph:

"As far as not being all-knowing, God selectively restrains his ability to foreknow everything in order for us to enjoy Free Will. Think about it, if he chose to know everything his sentient creations were going to do before they did it, how could we be free?"

So god, according to you, knew those children would become evil later on and do evil stuffs and took it upon himself to have them all killed before that happened. He acted on his perfect clarity future vision and denied those children their free will in the worst possible way.

Yes? No? Logical fallacy somehow?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Link

Free will, like our lives, are gifts from God. If we misuse them they are forfeit.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"Because remember they weren't evil by choice, they were born that way because of God's curse on humanity."

Except that sin doesn't inevitably make people evil. Try again.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"Now, if God knew that certain individuals would inevitably grow up to be evil would you prefer he let them victimize countless innocents? Where's the justice in that?"

Wheres the justice in violating the free will of children and murdering them beforehand (at a time when they are innocent)? Their free will has been violated either way, so why not bother to either make sure they arent born to begin with, or ensure they do not become evil? Why is a benevolent/forgiving/all loving etc god's immediate response the death penalty?


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"Free will, like our lives, are gifts from God. If we misuse them they are forfeit."

Okay, so god violates the children's free will by future gazing. He sees they are going to become evil. So because he violated free will, which supposedly he isn't really supposed to do, that means he has all the right in the world to off the children. Because he purposely chose to violate their free will. But hes still benevolent.

Makes total sense.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"Except that sin doesn't inevitably make people evil."

This actually hurts your argument, does it not?

In the case of children that God commands be slaughtered your excuse is that they are evil children who will grow up to be evil adults. But they weren't born evil by choice, you can't make a choice before you were born. If they were born evil it's Gods fault, because, ONCE AGAIN, God is responsible for everything, good and evil, especially stuff like this that cannot be called the result of free will (they can't make a free choice to be evil before they were born).

You've even admitted that God is responsible for and allows evil to show us that we cannot rule ourselves. So God's idea of helping us realize how much we need him is making things far worse for us by condoning slavery and committing genocide? Again, an abusive and immoral God, the equivalent of a horrific wife beater who demands we come crawling back and love him or he'll finish the job.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"If they were born evil "

Strawman. When did I ever claim that?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"You've even admitted that God is responsible for [] evil to show us that we cannot rule ourselves."

That's a lie. I've never made such a claim. Try again.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

@Trish

"Numbers 31:18 'all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.'"

And just how do you construe that to be an explicit command to rape them?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"And just how do you construe that to be an explicit command to rape them"

It is right there in the verse. Keep for yourselves, as in your own personal use, spoils of war - the only reason you would care whether they were virgins or not is if you were going to use them for sex. After watching their own people get slaughtered in front of them these poor innocent girls were now the property of their captors.

"That's a lie. I've never made such a claim."

You said that God condoned slavery, and as I have repeatedly had to explain to you slavery is evil. So you admitted that God does do evil things and claimed that it is because he wants to show us how bad we are ruling ourselves. Apparently God is showing us that his direct intervention only makes things worse, which is just more proof of how much we need him.

"Strawman. When did I ever claim that?"

You've been claiming this the entire time Joe, that what God did was kill evil people which you compared to Hitler. You said that what God does does not count as genocide because those people were all corrupt and evil. You've said things like "God was just punishing evil doers". I do not understand why you have to lie and pretend that I am not representing your position.

But I'm done, I'm done with your tap-dancing and childish games. You have proven yourself almost as morally repugnant and willfully ignorant as a holocaust denier. You obviously have nothing to say that is either constructive or substantive. You have successfully compromised your human decency for the sake of an ancient book written by superstitious primitives. I hope you're very proud of yourself.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 18 months ago

"the only reason you would care whether they were virgins or not is if you were going to use them for sex."

So they couldn't choose to be married the same way Rahab, also a Canaanite, married an Israelite? (Mathew 1:5, 6)

"You said that God condoned slavery"

When have I ever claimed that "God is responsible for [] evil"? Feel free to quote me.

"You've been claiming this the entire time Joe"

When have I ever claimed that anyone was "born evil"? Again, feel free to quote me.

"I've given you a working definition of evil."

You mean the one which makes abortion a great evil except that, in your mind, it's really not? That definition?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"So they couldn't choose to be married"

No. A prisoner of war taken as a spoil of war and told to be kept by the people who just slaughtered her family is not making a choice even if she "chooses" to marry.

This is the final comment of yours in this hub I am going to approve and I'll end our discussion by posting some of you greatest hits which show where I get the silly idea that you said God was responsible for evil deeds and that children can be irredeemably evil and deserving of genocide. Everyone is free to look these up in the context of the discussion:

Ready, here we go:

"The dikaiocide of evil peoples is not murder, it's justice." - rationalization of the murder of men women and children in ethnic cleansing missions (genocide)

"God allows slavery to exist for the same reason he has allowed democide, war, pestilence, violence, abuse, strife, discord, animosity, hatred, bigotry, inequality, injustice, abject squalor and depravity to exist; so there can be no doubt in anyone's mind that man is not capable of ruling himself independent of his loving Creator." - An admission that God condones slavery, an evil act, and allows other evils to persist willfully = God is responsible for evil

"I'm sure all of their victims will be grateful for the choice you've made ...” - An admission to Link that children can be pre-determined to be evil and God is doing us a favor by killing them

“If the person in question will inevitably wreak unspeakable evil upon helpless victims in the future, how is it wrong” - An Admission to Link that children can be pre-determined to be evil and God is doing us a favor by killing them

“Actually it's more like "you either submit to God's love and transformative power or choose to be evil and, in the end, forfeit your life." “ - A statement of your belief that shows how immoral your God is.

“This is no more persuasive than you claiming people who love chocolate are evil ...” A projection of your own moral relativism onto me equating genocide and evil as no worse than having a poor diet

“Now, if God knew that certain individuals would inevitably grow up to be evil would you prefer he let them victimize countless innocents?” - Genocide is okay, killing children is okay, because they were per-determined to be evil.

“You condemn God for executing evil children but then defend the genocide of children at the hands of their narcissistic mothers ... “ - You admitting the children were evil in an attempt to say abortion and God killing an already born child in an act of genocide are equivalent, from the hub Yahweh is Evil – Human Sacrifice Edition

“Isn't it obvious? Because it's unavoidable:” An answer to my question about why God would commit genocide. An admission that God would rather kill people than violate their free will by removing the sin nature or hypothetical evil component you posited. Throws idea of God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence out the window. From Yahweh is Evil

“The dikaiocide of evil peoples is a tremendous good for it serves to protect the godly from violence and death.” - You saying that genocide and violence are preventative measure against further evil and so that God can save those who worship him. Also again an admission that even the children were destined to be evil and thus deserved what happened to them.

“Where is it taught in the Bible that God is omnibenevolent?” - Here you throw omnibenevolence out the window opening God up to the possibility of evil.


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 18 months ago from The English Midlands

Joseph O Polanco @Trish

"Numbers 31:18 'all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

'And just how do you construe that to be an explicit command to rape them?'

Really?

You can't see it?

What else would it mean?

Keep them to wash your clothes for you?

What else were kidnapped girls used for, by victorious men, after a battle? Hadn't those poor girls been through enough?! Absolutely disgusting.


SirDent 18 months ago

A quick question before I read your hub. By what measure do you judge the character of the God of the Holy Bible?


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 18 months ago

Unlike what's seen in today's wars, Israelite soldiers were proscribed from raping or otherwise abusing female captives. Jehovah instructed, "In case you go out to the battle against your enemies and Jehovah your God has given them into your hand and you have carried them away captive; and you have seen among the captives a woman beautiful in form, and you have got attached to her and taken her for your wife, you must then bring her into the midst of your house. She must now shave her head and attend to her nails [for hygienic reasons], and remove the mantle of her captivity from off her and dwell in your house and weep for her father and her mother a whole lunar month; and after that you should have relations with her, and you must take possession of her as your bride, and she must become your wife." - Deuteronomy 21:10-13


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

@SirDent

According to basic standards of what is right and wrong based upon a combination of reason and empathy. If an act, for example, has no benefit or very little benefit to the individual and society and does psychological, social or physical (medical) harm to a person than that behavior can generally be categorized as evil or wrong.

If a behavior promotes the psychological, social and/or physical well being of individuals or groups of individuals than it is generally categorized as good especially if there are little or no negative effects.

Obviously there are gray areas but under this basic definition we could easily condemn something like a psychopathic serial killer or serial rapist because their actions do very objective harm with no benefit.

I used to refer to this view of morality as societal collective morality, which is where society has, over the course of centuries of legal and moral discourse, reasoned out a morality where we agree on the basics. And we continue to debate it out, refine it, make it better, strive to get closer to justice, equality and a better moral understanding.

I think, whether you believe in God or not, it would be very hard to disagree with the basic definition I've provided of good and evil.

Something like slavery, while it may have some economic benefits (many apologists argue it was a way for people to pay off debts in the ancient world) makes a person into property. The Bible states that this property can be beaten, sent away if it fails to please you (in the case of a female slave) and in the case of foreign slaves they are your property for life and can be given as inheritance to your children. Women can be taken as spoils of war, essentially sex slaves. (Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Deuteronomy 21:10-13) This sort of dehumanization, of people as property, has psychological, social and potential medical repercussions that I would argue make it obviously evil.

A benevolent God, we would expect, would be more moral than human beings, hand down rules far above and beyond the sophistication of our own moral understanding. We would not expect such a God, if it existed, to have a morality that reflects the barbaric time the Bible was written in, rather this is a hallmark of mythology which serves as evidence that this God does not exist.


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 18 months ago from The English Midlands

Oh Joseph.

Please just try to put yourself in her place and see how it feels.

Consider what you have actually quoted - that if a man is on the winning side in a battle and he decides to marry an attractive girl captive, then she must shave her head and be allowed to mourn the family he killed, but only for a month, and then he can marry her and sleep with her.

Does she have any choice in the matter?

Does she want to marry an enemy who killed her people?

Is it not rape if she is married to the stranger who killed her parents and she been allowed to cry for them?

Unbelievable.

She has no real choice. She will be traumatised and will continue to be traumatised.


SirDent 18 months ago

((According to basic standards of what is right and wrong based upon a combination of reason and empathy. If an act, for example, has no benefit or very little benefit to the individual and society and does psychological, social or physical (medical) harm to a person than that behavior can generally be categorized as evil or wrong.))

Almost the same question. Where do basic standards originate? There has to be a standard before anything can be judged. To say something is wrong or right, has to measure against something and meet or not meet the criteria.

You judge God by one chapter of one book of the Bible. Is that not the same as saying any book that you read is crap because I don't like the way it starts out?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"Where do basic standards originate?"

I already answered that, they originate with reason and natural empathy. Empathy is the component that we start with, its instinctual in all of us (except for sociopaths). Empathy is what allows us to put ourselves in the mental state of others and figure out what sort of consequences our actions have. Reason is what allows us to work together to iron out the details and get at the heart of why what's wrong is really wrong.

"You judge God by one chapter of one book of the Bible."

No I don't. I have quite a few hubs discussing and dissecting the Bible and its God. I have read the entire Bible. This hub is specifically about the subject of slavery. That being said even if it were the only information we had about Yahweh Exodus would be enough to condemn the actions the authors depict him carrying out (genocide of the First Born children in Egypt for example, slavery for another). If any human being committed one of these acts it would not matter how many other great and righteous deeds they did there simply would not be enough good deeds to cover that sort of monumental evil.

As God is meant to be MORE benevolent than humans we'd expect his behavior to be even more upstanding. A man, who we know to be corruptible, it might be easy to explain his evil deeds as part of human nature. But when a God that is claimed to be far more moral than we are, far more loving and far more merciful what excuse can we possibly conjure without admitting that this God isn't better than us as we once believed?


Stargrrl 18 months ago

Why does God need to be excused for anything? It is His right, as God. What would you expect of God? What would your ideal God be like?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"It is His right, as God."

It is God's right to do evil horrible things?

That is fine, if you want to believe and serve an evil God but do not pretend that in his wickedness he is still somehow good or justified in doing evil. If your attitude is MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, so God's power means he can do whatever he wants, that's fine, but it is an admission that God has done something wrong but that there's nothing we can do about it.

"What would you expect of God? What would your ideal God be like?"

I would expect any God worth worshiping to be morally superior to humans and more intelligent than we are as well. Most Christians believe God is far more benevolent than human beings, perhaps even morally perfect and incapable of evil. If that were true the Bible would reflect it. This is a big reason why I left Christianity behind and sought out the true God of the Universe, I was disgusted by the fact that I had been lied to about the God of the Bible by everyone I trusted and loved.

Today I have no real ideal for any such being. Obviously I don't think any gods exist so who knows what one would be like if it actually existed.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

@Star

"Titen, I eagerly await that new hub-series"

I've begun writing on the first hub, here's a preview of some of the topics I plan to cover in the series:

Faith Healing Kills Kids

Catholic Church – Child Sex Abuse, Celibacy, AIDS

The Denial of Gay Rights

Undermining Education – Creationism in Schools

Climate Change and Dominionism

Indoctrination and early psychological damage

Muslim Extremism and Free Speech

Circumcision and Genital Mutilation

Undermining Education 2 – Abstinence Only Sex-Ed Fails

The Oppression of Women (Muslim countries)

Catholic Church 2 – History of Atrocities

Manifest Destiny – Destruction of Native Culture

God and Guns – How Religious Ignorance Fuels the NRA and America's Dangerous Gun Fetish

Undermining Education 3 – The Founding Fathers and Revisionist Historians (David Barton)


Stargrrl 18 months ago

Nice! I look forward to them!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 18 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

You could write an entire hub on each of those topics! I have to caution you on the use of circumcision and genital mutilation. HP generally blocks ads when either of these subjects is mentioned. Maybe some of the other topics too.

Of course, I know you don't write here for money though. And you probably already know this.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 18 months ago from back in the lab again Author

That's fine with me, some of my hubs are ad free anyway. I think its a topic that not enough people talk about, it's kinda sickening to think that we practice this mutilation of small children removing nerve endings crucial to enjoyment of sex all as part of the ritual of some popular cult. Its insidious that such practices have infiltrated the medical profession without many people being up in arms and with many parents adopting a "I just want my kid to look like me" attitude.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 18 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

One of the most bizarre things I find about the Jewish faith is that they are convinced that god commanded them to circumcise boys as some sort of a covenant with their god. Why would a god need to mark boys by cutting off their foreskin? The Jewish god seems to be overly concerned with boy's genitals. WTF?


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 18 months ago from The English Midlands

If God wanted baby boys that way - or girls, for that matter - then, as a god, surely he could have made them that way.

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