You Don't Have to Ask God for Forgiveness--Ever

Freedom? Or Eternal Slavery?

Is this a healthy symbol or a reminder of oppression?
Is this a healthy symbol or a reminder of oppression?

Is Your God Still Angry?

The following headline arrived in my inbox this morning: Thousands Planning to Pray in New York City's Time Square

Thousands of people of all races, cultures and backgrounds, representing churches of every denomination, will be gathering in Times Square from 3:00 to 4:00pm on September 20 for Prayer in the Square, to pray for one hour to seek God's forgiveness on behalf of the nation. The one-hour event drew an estimated 18,000 to 20,000 people in 2008 and is expected to draw an even larger crowd this year.”

(I added the underline for effect.)

What’s interesting to me about this headline is the idea that the individual, the nation, the world still need to beseech the Creator for some kind of forgiveness. It’s an absurd idea. Here’s why (No need to call me a heretic; I admit it freely and joyfully!):

Let’s pretend that I am a traditional Christian (which I most assuredly am not). I suppose I would have to follow the traditional edict that God has to be continually forgiving the world because it continues to sin against him. After all, isn’t that what the Bible teaches? We must seek God’s forgiveness every day, every moment, because there is no health in us and we are constantly falling out of favor, no matter how hard we try to behave. Even our thoughts betray us. A little lust here, a bit of jealousy there, some envy, some anger, some bitterness. There’s no end to the nasty little behaviors, thoughts, attitudes, deeds.

Blah, blah, blah…

Now the heresy. If I were to become a Christian of any sort again (Was one for many years; woke up, thank goodness), I would be a Universal Salvationist. Reason? Well, the story goes something like this:

God creates the humans; the humans are innocent. Then, they are tempted by “the serpent.” They eat from the Tree, their eyes open, and they know good and evil, becoming, in essence, like their Creator. God even proclaims it himself: “Behold, the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3:22) He’ll have to kick them out of the Garden now because they may eat from the Other Tree (of Life) and live forever. Got it so far?

Since humans did this horrible thing, the only one that can save them is God himself, so he comes to earth in the form of Jesus, does his thing, is crucified, dies, then rises again on the third day. He appears to a lot of people, depending on which gospel you use as a reference, then ascends to heaven. Cased closed, world forgiven, job done. Period.

The idea that this Plan of Salvation won’t work unless you and I believe it is where Paul and the rest of church history fall flat. Why? Because God did what he did through Jesus because humanity couldn’t. Nothing we do can bring any kind of salvation, including believing in it. If Jesus actually did what Christians say he did, then humanity from beginning to end is saved and set free from any condemnation. That includes Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists (bless ‘em), Taoists, atheists, even us poor misguided New Thought ministers.

Ultimately, the work was between the Father and Son. Not between fallen humanity and God.

In the final analysis, it matters not what you or I believe. Jesus kept to his task. The work is complete. As he said from the cross, “It is finished.”

The best part is, no one has to believe it.

So, if you still plan to attend the big forgiveness rally, enjoy. But remember this: In spite of what you or I or anyone believes, either Jesus did the work or he didn’t. If he did, all’s well. But if even one soul is lost, if one person can end up in an eternal hell, Christ’s work was—and remains—a failure.

We know that’s not true, right?




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Comments 30 comments

Sequoia Elisabeth 7 years ago

YES, we know that we are free and that to ask forgiveness is a choice that in doing so creates the very need to be forgiven! Hey, what else do we have to do anyway, create Peace? Just joking, actually a much better use of time would be to Hug your neighbor. Can you imagine the world if everyone Hugged their neighbor, just once! ;-)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

Good comment. As far as world peace is concerned, is that actually what we want? First, we have to know what it means. Hugging might produce something other than peace--like, maybe, adultery?? Ha!


Taylor Brooks 6 years ago

Jesus came as the atonement for our sins. We must ask for forgiveness in His name for our daily transgressions. We do this in obedience and love for the Lord God! Our sins do not send us to hell. Jesus made sure of that! The only thing that will give us eternal separation from God is refusal to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

Taylor: Death is not eternal punishment. It's death. Period. Done. Gone. End. And you are right: the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus. But you do not have to believe that. And that's the real gift. It was given to the world in spite of humanity's nature. If it hinges on belief, then salvation is not by grace but by works. Having to believe is a form of works.

You really should be grateful that the world is saved. You can stop witnessing now.


Taylor Brooks 6 years ago

Matthew 28:18-20


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

So what? Just because I don't believe that doesn't mean I am not saved. It doesn't mean the world is lost. Besides, the passage is pretty egotistical and was probably never uttered by Jesus; rather, the later writers (Matthew wrote nearly 70 years after Jesus' death) put those words into his mouth.

You cannot use the book to prove the book.

Blessings.


G.d.Warren 6 years ago

Romans 10:9 just believe (have faith)

Romans 10:9 (have faith)


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

We cannot force ourselves to believe. We can force hope, though. And that's what both of these passages suggest. Hope means maybe. Faith is the substance and the evidence, which means there are absolutely no doubts. I have no doubt that the universe is unfolding as it should. But I have lots of doubts about Paul's teachings. After all, he was a human who claimed to have seen the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus. I wasn't there; I have my doubts. He told his followers to pay alms to the government, that any kind of social rebellion was the same as rebelling against God. I have my doubts about his sincerity. He was looking to appease the authorities (hence the later dictatorial claim: The divine right of kings). He had every reason to be very afraid of the Romans. Faith? No. Fear? Yes. Of that I have no doubts.

He told slaves to obey their masters. I have doubts that he saw everyone as equal. He told women to be quiet in church. How many churches today pay attention to THAT dictum? I have my doubts that Paul saw women as the same as men in God's eyes.

You get the drift here, I'm sure. None of us HAS to believe anything Paul says. He was a human being. I would be willing to bet that if you were to ask him today if he thought his letters should be considered Holy Writ, he would be offended at the idea. Anyone with spiritual common sense would be. My words? says Paul. Holy? Not a chance, says Paul. I am not worthy to pick up His sandals. God's Word? No way. They were just letters. Men later declared them Scripture, not God, not Christ. Some tired old church father. That means I don't have to pay any attention to them. Neither do you. They are just letters Then. And now. Nothing more. Nothing less. That is freeing, don't you think? (Probably not...)

Just my opinion, of course. I only human, too.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Sorry to have to resort to scripture but it is only what they can comprehend so I give you a few to contemplate:

The first is about things NOT hurting you--meaning the body can be hurt but you cannot.

Luke 10:18-20 (Young's Literal Translation)

18and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen;

19lo, I give to you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall hurt you;

20but, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice rather that your names were written in the heavens.'

The next tells us that NOT everything is written in that Bible--not even 1/10th of the things Jesus supposedly said or did:

John 20:30 (Young's Literal Translation)

30Many indeed, therefore, other signs also did Jesus before his disciples, that are not written in this book;

And the last one is that God is WITHIN all of us. The only people that discriminate are those who cannot read the words for what they are:

Luke 17:20-24 (Young's Literal Translation)

20And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;

21nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Oha and we must not forget Psalm 103, especially verse 12. " 12As the distance of east from west He hath put far from us our transgressions. "

In this part of the Bible God was a very nice entity. What happened to him that now he is vengeful? Man said that when he didn't get his way or that they wished harm to others for something that they thought was not right. Now they blame it all on God and on Satan too and not on the person(s) who really have a hand in all the things that come bak to them--who has Self-responsivilit and who is accountable for all the things that they do and how they re-act to things----Humans! Not anything else.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

Thanks for all the scriptural support. I will comment only on Ps. 103:12.

It must be recognized that the transgressions were put away from humanity HUNDREDS of years before the crucifixion. It was not a prophecy. It was an acknowledgment. The resurrection of Christ is a myth borrowed from earlier traditions. King David knew that the world was in good stead.

Thanks, King David. You're a real eye opener.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

Richard you are correct. The OT was way before the time of Christ. Though is you read my Lost Garden of Eden you will realize that the creation and other stories that are in the Bible are also borrowed from much older stories.


G.d.Warren 6 years ago

God bless you real good. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all say that Christ Jesus died and was resurrected from the grave. Without the resurrection my teaching and preaching is in vain. And please. Explain why such a terrified group of apostles would voluntarily accept a martyrs death, if they had not witnessed the resurrected Saviour.

Please tell me wharf are we to do with he empty tomb. You seem to have all the answers, so here's the million dollar question. Where is the body?


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 6 years ago from West Virginia

G,d.Warren, Jesus had a twin. The body was decomposed would be one theory or another would be that he didn't die on the cross at all. It is said that he married Mary Magdelene and went to France and had a family there. Rome didn't own France at the time. As far as what do you preach---that Jesus was here and all the miracles that he did--nothing like converting or threatening those wo don't believe you that they are going to a make believe place. The bible doesn't have all his miracles or the full story in it either. See my comment above. Jesus also stated int he Bible that all of the laws were put in the minds and hearts of men. We already know everything for it is all Within us all. We need to lift those up who don't have FAITH--in themselves. That is why we are here, not to pass judgment or death or hell.

I wrote a Hub of what Faith means and what it is to a Non-believer and a believer and about the Ant and the Rubber Tree.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

St. Augustine once said, paraphrased, that miracles do not happen in contradiction to the natural world; they happen in contradiction to our understanding of the natural world. He was quite wise (sometimes).

Fact is, if Jesus actually walked out of the tomb, he did it within the framework of natural laws. That means he didn't die on the cross. He was removed and placed in the tomb quickly after the centurion pierced his side and they saw blood and lymph flowing from the wound, which can't happen if someone is dead. They got him to Joseph's tomb and cleaned his wounds, used herbs and clean linens to help the healing process, and then, a couple of days later, helped him out of the tomb to a different hiding place. Remember, there are a couple of different versions of this in the Gospels. Put them all together, you have a natural miracle. Jesus is whisked away from the tomb to recuperate. The Bible says that his followers waited for him in Galilee. He came to them after healing. They already knew he was alive, though, because the women had told them. He had succeeded in beating the Roman cross. That's why the disciples were willing to die for him. And, to make it even more interesting, Jesus was still alive and on earth when he encountered Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul did not see an apparition. NO, my friends, he saw the living Jesus, the one who escaped the tomb.

Why is it so necessary for you (all of you who read this) to need a supernatural resurrection? Isn't it equally amazing and miraculous that the Creator could use natural means to create this event? I think so. I do not and cannot trust a Creator that breaks It's own laws--for any reason. But I also know that it never happens that way.

Once again, if Jesus walked out of the tomb, it was a miraculous application of natural principles.

Now, that's a god one can trust!


G.dWarren 6 years ago

Simple question, where is the body? His twins body, anybody would do to prove your THEORY right. And Richard, I have seen blood ooze or flow, whichever you prefer, from a lifeless body, due to a principle called gravitational pull. SIR/MADAM, the greatest deception of all is self deception. The greatest LOVE of all is to lay down one's LIFE for one's friends. And that my friends is just what JESUS did in order to make atonement for our sin nature and our sins of ommisson/ commission. JUST BELIEVE. You cannot possibly please GOD, without faith.

Because every miracle JESUS performed was not included, in no way disproves the validity of GOD'S HOLY WRIT.

May our heavenly Father bless you real good. You shall know the truth, and the truth (JESUS CHRIST) shall make you free. Simple question, where is the body? Think about it, after the crucifixion, the disciples were hiding in the upper room because they were afraid of the Jews who had chosen, when given the choice by Pontius Pilate, to have my Lord and Saviour crucified instead of barabbus. The record is clear, according to John Foxe's book of martyrs, all of the disciples except John died a martyrs death. SIR/MADAM, WOULD EITHER OF YOU BE WILLING TO DIE FOR LIE?


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

I'm going to die anyway so no need to become a martyr. Also, you sound so certain. I'm glad for you. I doubt everything, especially anything I'm told second-hand or anything in old books. But...

When I look up into the night sky, when I see the new blossoms on my tomato plants, when I look into the eyes of my 21 year old kitty, I see the Creator. When I taste carrots and turnips and pears and black beans, I experience the creator. When I have a very good bowel movement and no urine blockage, I feel the Creator. When my closest friends call me just to say hi, or to ask if I'm OK, I hear the Creator. When I give a presentation that receives a standing ovation, I meet the Creator. Every time I get up and out of bed in the morning, I thank the Creator for yet another day of life.

That is the only experience of "God" that makes sense to me. I will go to the grave believing that.

I did not create my life, at least not to my knowledge. But here I am, living the best way I know how. I listen to the ramblings of others; I know that they, too, are doing the best they can. I do not really know anything called Ultimate Truth. But I do know that anyone who claims to know it is greatly deluded. And if that angers those who make such claims, well, I am not responsible for their experiences.

It all comes down to this: If it resonates with you, and hurts no one, follow whatever path you choose. But do not judge or condemn or even pity those who do not see the world as you do.

The only lie here is the one that says, "I know. You don't. Hell awaits you. Heaven awaits me." From that lie I will flee. It's not worth dying for.

Many blessings again to you on your journey.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

To Everyone: All posts here must be civil and respect the right of differing opinions. Thank you for your cooperation.


Trinidad49 profile image

Trinidad49 5 years ago from Kericho

I always say no one has monopoly on the truth i.e you can't say you know or have the absolute truth more so pertaining to religious matters.paul has a chapter in 1 corinth 7 talkin about marriage and virgins,it is so ambigous i wonder what he was trying to pass over.occasionally he said he thought what he wrote was right and true just coz he had been shown mercy to be faithful to the lord.smtimes he said he knew it was true coz the spirit witnessed that whatever he was saying was true,and for me that's questionable i mean you can be prone to error.on the other side i like him coz he was a free guy and contented and wished all people were like him,i think in this case free,his salvation guaranteed.the feeling of freedom is so thrilling so sweet.i pity people like ms carrie they are so burdened they got no peace,they have to keep record of all their sins in order to confess and seek forgiveness from God and yet jesus came to put away sin to obliterate it totally.what isn't clear to such people from the scriptures.we have been given freedom to live,to be,to exhale.bu thanks to evil church doctrines 98% or so of christians can never be free.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 5 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

The Bible actually teaches universal salvation, no matter what the average believer claims. Here's an interesting website, if you want to take the time to study the issue in depth. A lot of material, but worth the read if you want to really see what the Bible is saying about the subject. Blessings... And thanks for the comments.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Jesus never wrote one single word. Every wonder why he didn't write anything or was he even around to write anything? His body is buried in France. Have you ever heard of the Knight's Templar? Do you know what they were protecting? How about Laurence Gardner and the Bloodline of the Holy Grail just to mention two sources.

Richard, I seek out truth and it isn't all in that Bible --so says that Bible. I don't take offense to others here that try to browbeat me--I am used to it. They have a pattern and the last thing they will do if you still don't beleive the exact way they believe is to call one names. So very childish and immature.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 5 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

The Absolutist is not open to challenge. He/she knows the TRUTH and will criticize every attempt to add new information to the mix. It's called fear. So, we let it pass. Thanks for the comments.


Trinidad49 profile image

Trinidad49 5 years ago from Kericho

Lady guinevere i like your thoughts.would you please share with me what's your take about jesus,his being and his work.i am also a seeker.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Trinidad, all you have to do is read my hubs. The best one for starters is What I learned when I went to heaven. Then How Rape Brought Me Into The Light, What is a Minister and then on to I Heard. Go to my profile page and see all that I have commented on nad you will begin to know what I feel about Jesus. Read that Bible for your very self, not someone elses rendition of it and don't allow Chruch or organized religioun to taint your view. Another one of my hubs in which you may want to do research with is The Long and Winding Road. Of course you should read everything that Richard has written too because I have commented on some of his hubs.


Trinidad49 profile image

Trinidad49 5 years ago from Kericho

Thanx guinevera.i will check your hubpages for more info.

Richard,i would also like to know more of your beliefs that pertain to jesus.you mentioned that he never died and that they whisked him away to recuperate,who are these they,what can we deduce from such verses matt 27:50,mark 15:45,john 20:17 what was this ascension?.i am also asking what was his mission then? Is he relevant to our salvation.who is this jesus.why did he come. People always say let's give thanks unto jesus and really love him who died for us and our sins but lately i have been asking that why should i give thanks to God or jesus,when he is the one who he is the one who put me in this condition and a very lame one at that.furthermore he knew what he was doing and all the expectatiöns he had for me even my sin nature.

P.s.i am familiar with the link you gave me tentmaker.com.it's all good stuff.Good news.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 5 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

Trinidad49: The point of the article was to show that even within Christianity, the so-called Plan of Salvation is highly misunderstood. For me personally, I do not accept the Bible as any kind of literal truth. It's often good for quotes to use on Sunday morning, but Truth? Hardly.

I believe the universe is deliberate, not accidental. I believe that everything is interconnected, that all people, animals, plants, planets, galaxies, and whatever else exists, are all part of The One. I am wise enough to admit that I do not know what the Power and Presence is that has created all this, but still, I accept that all is well, that no forgiveness on the part of the Creator of All That Is is necessary. We have our challenges, to be sure, but we have been created with the abilities and capacities to solve every one of them. If we don't, it's our choice; we will suffer the consequences. But those consequences are NOT inevitable. We can choose our way into paradise; we can choose our way into cooperation; we can choose our way into contribution, caring, and a commitment to each other and the world.

But will we? That's the question. And no outside God is coming to save or condemn us. We are the Answer.

Ultimately, our Source is Mystery. And I trust It completely.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

Trinidad, YOU are responsible for your OWN circumstances and not God or Jesus. Think really hard of all the things that your thought or said or did in the past that would give you the circumstances that you are in right now. I bet you will find the answer and it may be as small as a single thought that you poassed through your mind but focused on. THIS was HIS mission and HIS message.

Sorry Richard, I just had to say it. People blame everything and everyone except for themselves and most religions perpetrate it. It is NOT what Jesus said but they ignore that.


Trinidad49 profile image

Trinidad49 5 years ago from Kericho

Thanks everyone.i will continue to question and meditate on matters relating to christian belief.mainstream christianity tends to be evil,unintelligent,cunning-knowingly and sometimes unknowingly,they seem to want to brainwash people.even judaism is kinder and sensible as pertaining to life on earth and after.i think there's idiocy in christian thinking concerning salvation,you ask christians what about the hindus who never heard the gospel,they merely parrot john 14:6.saying such things as God is not responsible or they will be judged as per their actions or they will never be saved coz there is no salvation outside belief in jesus or somehow you were supposed to know there is the true God called jehovah coz his signs are with us blah blah blah!!,how can a person get more stupid than that.such non-sense.i know you believe in a supreme being and you don't subscribe to such beliefs as you must be forgiven of your sins but i am always saddened and amazed by what people peddle from the pulpit and claiming to be the absolute truth.you know i am thinking about the hindu or the buddhist who has never known any other religion or belief and you expect him to know your 'savior' miraculously or by luck,how can that ever happen.i hope my comments were civil.


RichardSpeaks profile image

RichardSpeaks 5 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area Author

Even "true" Christians don't realize that Jesus did not come to die for your personal sins, but for the sin of the world, which was Adam and Eve's disobedience. That was forgiven; hence, all is forgiven. No need to believe it or ask for it.

But of course, the whole thing is a myth anyway.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 5 years ago from West Virginia

http://www.graal.co.uk/bloodlinelecture.html

"Raisings and resurrections could only be performed by the High Priest or by the Father of the Community. The High Priest at that time was Joseph Caiaphas (the very man who condemned Jesus), therefore the raising had to be performed by the patriarchal Father. There are Gospel accounts of Jesus talking to the Father from the cross, culminating in "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" - and the appointed Father of the day was the Magian apostle Simon Zelotes.

During that Friday afternoon when Jesus was on the Cross, there was a forward time change, and the Gospels explain that the land fell into darkness for three hours. The Hebrew lunarists made their change during the daytime, but the Nazarene solarists did not make their change until midnight. This explains why, according to the Gospel of Mark (which relates to lunar time), Jesus was crucified at the third hour, but in John (which uses solar time) he was crucified at the sixth hour.

On that evening the Hebrews began their Sabbath at the old nine o'clock, but the Essenes and Magians still had three hours to go before their Sabbath. During those extra three hours they were able to work with Jesus while others were not allowed to undertake any physical activity. It was for this reason that the women were so astonished when they found the tomb-stone moved at daybreak on the Sunday - not because it was moved, but because it had been moved on the Sabbath."

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