Church as infalible.

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   Ericdierkerposted 10 years ago

   Church as infalible.
   
   Can a group of people really claim to be infallible?
   
   This comes from the Catholic Catechism which I am studying for the (I really only know more that 6) time:
   Although individual members of the Church can err and even make serious mistakes, the Church as a whole can never fall away from God's truth.
   
   Well I am sorry. Yes it can. And if you do not believe me look to the inquisitions and crusades and modern wealth as opposed to saving lives.
   
   Believe me I want a church that gives all and loves in Christ's nature but statements like these made in 2013 are a problem. "the Church never erred"?

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   retief2000posted 10 years ago

   Infallibility is specific teaching of the Catholic Church and refers to a limited number of specific teachings in Church Dogma.  The Magisterium refers to the singular authority of the Catholic Church responsible for the teachings of the Church.  The Catechism is a product of the Magisterium.  The Church has been in error and has taught about the errors of various churchmen.  It isn't the entire body of the Church that has been in error, but the men who have run it at various times in its history.  You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the Catholic Church who would say the Church is perfect, especially the current Pope. After all, the Church is made up of mere humans, it is our nature to be imperfect. All fall short of the glory of God. I commend your studies and am more than willing to discuss any ideas you may have about Catholicism.

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      Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Today our lives are filled with phone ques and corporate matters. No one is anyone but a number. Notions of infallibility are best left for dark ages.
      I read you loud and clear retief2000 but who accepts responsibility. It is a "never me but....".

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      retief2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I wonder if we have ever really changed, regardless of the trappings of life.  Catholic Theology is a pretty interesting area of study if one is so inclined.

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      Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      when I was charged in early life with lawyer type knowledge of Canons I learned well. When I was charged with later life teaching Catechism I learned that I knew nothing. I am humbled by the teaching and yet required by faith to question for others.

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      retief2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I once heard a priest talking about the nature of doubt and about how essential doubt is in the development of faith.  God gave us intellect for a reason.

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      Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Retiief 2000 I am not done. Let us keep looking and searching for love.

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   grand old ladyposted 10 years ago

   The Catholics don't believe in church infallibility, but in papal infallibility. This is something the Pope calls on when large issues arise. In fact, the power has only been used twice. First when it claimed that the Assumption of Mary is true. Second, in the declaration of the Immaculate Conception. I myself am not Catholic. I don't believe in papal infallibility, nor in ANY church infallibility. In fact, I believe in church you will find the largest collection of transgressors ever. They go to the church precisely because they want to become better people. They want a change in life as they know it. There are also wiley people who join a church, according to a Pew survey, because church people are the easiest people to swindle.

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   1. 46

      Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I am not Catholic but I am catholic and my proposition is directly from catechism which I was charged in teaching as an ordinariate. "Church" infallibility is doctrine. Individuals within the church can fail.

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      grand old ladyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Oh, okay Ericdierker, I stand corrected. Thank you. A little knowledge can be dangerous, so I appreciate your widening my knowledge:)

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   lone77starposted 10 years ago

   Most profound, my dear Eric.
   
   Biblical literalists say that the Bible is infallible, but they frequently mean their interpretation of it.
   
   The fundamentalist preacher, Ken Ham once asked a friendly audience, "Who do you believe, science or God?" Of course, the audience answered, "God." But he had loaded the question with a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between science or God, but between science and Ken Ham's interpretation.
   
   God and science get along just fine. Science studies the products of God's creation.
   
   The infallibility of the Bible is not in any one person's fallible interpretation, but in the spirit of its meaning underneath the literal. 2 Corinthians 3:6 warns that we should look to the spirit, instead of the letter, because the letter leads to death and the spirit leads to life.
   
   The problem with The Church and other churches is not with separate or collective infallibility, but with ego which makes all things fallible. The Church turned to Ego as its master under Constantine and solidified that turning away under Justinian.
   
   Ego is the heart of evil. Ego is the blindfold we took up when we ate the forbidden fruit so long ago. The Bible tells us many things, but people do not see. The Bible tells us that only the guilty pay for their own crimes (Ezekiel 18:18–20). Yet, we are taught that we are shackled with the sins of Adam and Eve. There is a way to resolve this, but it invokes our own immortality as children of the Most High.
   
   God created a Rescue Mission and it has been ongoing for hundreds of thousands of years. That mission is coming to its end. My new book discusses these things, focusing on God's reason for Noah's Flood, but that reason is just as applicable today as it was then. The Flood was an act of love—only that and nothing more.
   
   Only the Holy Spirit is infallible and the spirit is pure love when it is awake. The Church has done so much that is not love, it has shown its "bad fruit." The Church and all denominations are corrupt. They are based on ego—the need to be "first." Claims of infallibility are ego speaking.
   
   Love is quite okay being last. If I were pope, I would sell it all and have all priests walk the streets witnessing for Christ. I would use the proceeds of selling all the Church's holdings to feed and clothe the poor, done as anonymously as possible. Then, I would encourage everyone else to do the same.
   
   Love is all that matters.

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