How can the Bible be considered proof

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JMcFarlandposted 9 years ago
How can the Bible be considered proof

I would say that 8 out of ten times when discussing proof of god with a theist, they quote the Bible. In my perspective, the Bible is the collection of claims about the christian god, not the evidence for it - and all claims require evidence if the desire is to convince someone else. If the Bible is proof of the christian god, by the same logic, shouldn't the Koran be proof of Allah? Yet Christians reject that logic in the case of Islam, while simultaneously using it themselves. Using the Bible to prove the Bible claims is circular logic, isn't it?
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Snøwmanposted 9 years ago
The word of God has a convincing power to it. This works both logically and emotionally. You both know and feel when you're reading the word of God. I know that many atheists know the bible very well and don't believe that it's true. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in a very subtle way. It's very easy to miss.

Quoting the bible also works as delivering the truth about Christianity. Atheists should read the Bible just so they have a correct knowledge of God according to the Bible. A lot of atheists deny God because they don't have a correct knowledge of who God is. You can't prove something to be right or wrong until you have a correct and complete knowledge of that thing. Christians should do the same for atheists. Get to know them and their beliefs. Many Christians don't have a correct understanding of atheists.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  As a former Christian and collegiate theology student, your theory falls flat. The Bible seems to only be convincing to people who already believe it's true or suspect it might be. It is still not evidence. Not believing is not rejecting btw.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  How can anyone presume to know an all powerful god that is beyond understanding?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It seems that you have an incorrect understanding of atheists as well. I Lack a belief in any God. I do not reject them. You cannot reject something that you don't believe exists. I do not claim no gods exist.
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  CynthiaMHarrisposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jay would not the breath of life be enough to convince people? May I ask why you are a former Christian? Believe me I know how hard it is to walk with God. What has driven you away from the relationship with God? It is clear you know the word.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The breath of life no more convinced me that the christian god exists than it convinced you that Allah exists. Or Zeus. Our life creating pixies. The argument from ignorance is not a convincing argument for any God.
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  jlparkposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Cynthia - forgive me for answering on JM behalf - you asked why she was a former chrisitian - taking the time to read her hubs (whether you agree or not), will provide you an answer that cannot be fit into 180odd characters.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, jlpark :-)
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  bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A lot of people are deaf to God, and the definition is not a belief in God, but a belief in the Christian God. To them other religions are atheists.
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  Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Atheist have knowledge, but without power.
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cjhunsingerposted 9 years ago
JM
It cannot be considered proof and would never be accepted in a court of law, as evidence of anything, especially the existence of a god. The Christian Old Testament, which was plagiarized from the Jewish Torah, which was plagiarized from multiple pagan mythologies rooted in the Babylonian and Sumerian cultures offers no proof. Credibility here is not served by the fact that the original books by the original author do not exist. The claim of writing of the Torah was around 1400 BCE, but the Jews were late in developing a written language and this did not happen until around 800 BCE. There seems to be a problem there. Too, The Jews did not originate a 'one god' concept. This was the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaten (Son of Aten (God) and the god Aten.
The New Testament is equally suspect, as there are no original texts, by the original authors and there is absolutely no evidence that anything was written at the time of these events or that the supposed authors, except possibly Mark, had the ability to write. The doctrine that is now Christianity came from the Council of Nicaea in 324 CE by order of the pagan Emperor Constantine, High Priest of Sol Invictus, which is why Christian go to church on Sunday, the day of the sun.
The primary truths of Christianity, a god exists, virgin birth, the son of god, the resurrection, the trinity are all plagiarized from pagan mythologies rooted in Babylon and Marduk to the Egyptian stories of Osiris and Isis.
Christians believe the bibles to be a truth because they want to. They, as all theists, require that belief that there is something that gives a purpose and meaning to their lives. They lack a belief in themselves and in Man. They are the Un-believers.
If this belief serves to help them in the process of living a good life, then that is a good thing, but as often as not, it manifests itself in a dogma of a demand of adherence and abeyance that results in the horror of the Dark Ages and a nightmare called ISIS.
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  muthiriposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus cannot be denied to be the originator of the Christianity. It takes a name that he bore when he was of the Earth, he was the only one that took the name Christ. If one can look deeply into the books of history, you cannot make a mistake of sayi
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  cjhunsingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  muthiri--No mistake. Truth is better served with objectivity and scrutiny. Bias has a tendency to promote an ignorance of events and a denial of reality.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You're wrong. Much of the contents of the Tanakh was compiled by the men of the Great Assembly, put together in 200-250 BCE, a task completed, and canonized in 400-450 BCE, and has remained unchanged since that date.
  The pagans (All non-Jewish, Egypt
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JThomp42posted 9 years ago
Is all history a lie? Of course You cannot prove any of history since it was written by humans. If not, how do you know this? Were you there? Did man make up history to make it more acceptable or are they all fairy tales? How do you know an apple fell on Isaac Newton's head? You cannot because you were not there. So, should we come to the conclusion that all who wrote about previous events are not credible.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But you weren't there either, jt. And you didn't answer the question. The Bible is the claim about God - not the evidence for him, and there's absolutely no reason to take your word for it.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct JM. I was not there. My comment was what history can we know that is 100% accurate? None of us can. This is where my faith tells me that the Bible is the word of God. It is your right to disagree. You are entitled to your beliefs.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Had bit of a flashback to the Bill Nye and Ken Ham debate for a second there.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And I respect your faith, however, faith is not knowledge. Knowing something through faith cannot be demonstrated or proven, and there's no reason to accept another person's word for it or their interpretation. History is mostly probability.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  History has multiple reference points to determine its validity. A volcano erupted 200 years ago? We werent there, but plenty of journals that were uncovered confirm that there was, as well as residue from the volcano.
  The bible is only one source.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link - true. I'm sure there are true things in the bible - but we know they're true, not because they're in the Bible, but because they've been independently verified and tested. One truth, however, does not indicate truth on all of its claims.
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  jfs69posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I thought HP was a place where you could voice your opinions without being verbally assaulted? People are not being very nice.
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  Robert the Bruceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Stick around JThomp42 and some of the other Christians here for a while, jfs69...you'll see who really launches most of the "verbal assaults."
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You will not see any from me. I have seen the err of my words. Temper is a bad thing and must be controlled. With God's help, nothing but a good example for God from me. I suggest everyone come to this conclusion about their egos God bless
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  jfs69posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN JThomp!!
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  Rachael Tateposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The first thing any history teacher will teach you is that all written history is biased depending upon who wrote it. History was written by those who won and religious texts are written by those seeking to convert others.
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  christiananrkistposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Rachael: does that mean then, we cant know anything about history?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is part of Jewish history taught in school, and all Judicial Judges in Israel, must be versed in Torah before they take office. And someone said the bible wouldn't hold up in court
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  bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  How is the bible or bibles authenticated as a work of God?
  These books can't self authenticate.
  No one has ever seen God. They only heard him.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM:I thought u had a personal vendetta against me but by ur writings u really feel this way! U will never "see" the works of the HS until u "humble urself" "believe" & have "faith" n the Word of God! If u were "terminal" I bet ur attiude would c
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So you think I was dying, I would beg your God for forgiveness? That's not going to happen. I'm not afraid of your God or your hell, just like you're not afraid of any other god or hell. There's no proof for it.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: I never said u were dying! I said "IF" then u would try "anything!" Doesn't cost u anything - why not "TRY JESUS!" What if ur wrong & I'm right? U-eternal damnation - If I'm wrong Oh well, just rec'd all these earthly "benefits!"
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Same could be said for every other religion Norine, why not try all of those as well? Why is it just yours?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What you're failing to realize, Norine, is that you're a) using pascals wager badly, and it's been debunked b) fear is not a good reason to justify belief in something that cannot be verified.
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  Stargrrlposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Who debunked Pascal's wager? A man? Fear is a way of submitting to God, you should be afraid.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JAG: I Jn 4:1 "I've tried the spirits!" HS only One with "benefits!" (Ps 103:2) JM: Satan uses every device to "debunk" but HS "knows his devices" (II Cor 2:11). There is no "fear" in Christ Jesus (I Jn 4:17-19) especially in "death" (II Cor 5:8)!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pascals wager is the worst possible argument for any God as it applies to any God or belief system, and I don't fear your God any more than I fear Allah, Thor or Zeus, but I'm imagining you don't fear them either. I fear one less god than you.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Its a rare sight to see a Christian admitting that god is a dictator/tyrant.
  
  Bravo Star...
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Also, who invented pascals wager? Yep. .. a man.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: What questions have I not responded to? Maybe not what u wanted to hear, but I've responded? Scripture is all I have to offer! Anything else, foolishness! Sorry I called u lady! Just read ur bio! Christianity is a walk of "faith!" Not "proof"
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you answer the multiple questions that go unanswered on the other thread on the OTHER THREAD. Those have nothing to do with this discussion.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Pascal's wager has no mystical or retributive underlay. It's just pure and simple common sense that when you cannot come up with a definitive refutation of God's existence to restrain yourself from being adamant that he does not exist.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pascals wager says it's better just to believe rather than to risk being wrong. But either a god exists or one doesn't. 50/50. If a god exists, there is less than 1% that you believe in the right one, among all proposed, and there is a cost.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Risking being wrong doesn't mean there will be retribution. In Pascal's view, what harm would you suffer to tentatively assume that God exists until you've found proof that he does not exist?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ben - if I spend a life, money and time worshiping a god that isn't there and this is the only life I have, I have wasted my one shot. If all gods are as jealous, petty and vindictive as the biblical one, and one is real, I'd be screwed too.
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  Stargrrlposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, you put words in my mouth. I never said anything other than the fact God should be feared.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  In addition, Ben, why is it not more logical to withhold belief until something can be proven true, not the other way around? Is a god not smart enough to know whose hedging their bets and who genuinely believes?
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Direct me to those threads & I will respond! What is time, money, this life in reference to "eternal damnation" if we are right?
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The guiding principle of the God I know is "to love your neighbors as yourself". Any religion that espouse a fundamental principle different from this is a perversion. Moreover, I don't see how loving your neighbors as yourself can cause any harm.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But I can love my neighbor perfectly fine on my own without a god telling me to because being kind and generous is a good thing to do for societal survival. That had nothing to do with pascals wager.
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  Stargrrlposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If I spend my life worshipping God and He does not exist, I've lost nothing. But if I am atheist and He is real, that's eternity in hell for me. See the point?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The point you fail to see star is that your god is not the only one thought to exist
  
  You have more of a chance being wrong than an atheist does, and virtually an unlimited versions of hell to deal with if you are.
  
  See the point?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What if you spend your entire life worshiping yahweh and find out that Allah is the real god? You're going to hell, and your entire life would have been wasted praying to something that doesn't exist. Pascals wager is an appeal to fear. Not reason.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM, when you have attained the level of refinement that capacitates you to love your neighbors as yourself, you are demonstrating the essence of God which is love. Therefore, the proof of God is found in the fruits produced by your words and action.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, that wold be an assertion that selfless love is attributable to the god you believe in, because that's what you believe God is. That's a claim, not evidence. It cannot, logically, be both.
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A claim can be evidence of many things. It can also begin the inquiry as to why it is a claim.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Let me rephrase. A claim is evidence that a claim has been made, yes. But if I assert that there is an invisible Dragon under my bed, that is not evidence that it's there.
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes but it is proof that you believe the dragons are there and should inspire further inquiry as we have not disproved the existence of dragons.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Until a dragon had been proven to exist or even proven probable, there is no need to disprove it. The rational position is to withhold belief in dragons until there is evidence for them. Kind of like you withholding belief in any other god.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Our human nature does not bend us toward doing the right thing, that is why laws are made. It's our God-like nature that gives us the ability to love, evidenced by our words and action. You may try, but you cannot change evidence to a claim.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But all you're doing is claiming that it's our God-like nature. That's not evidence. People all over the works with varying or no beliefs do good things for others. If it's evidence for your God, it's evidence for all of them, or none of them.
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Evil doings are evidence of evil. Goodness is evidence of good. Proof is a problem for both. Life is evidence for both. The Bible reflects the problems both have with each other. Good and evil are proven time and time again. what of the marionette?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good and evil are both subjective terms that are dependant on the societal construct of the person discussing them. They're rarely if ever universal
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM that is false and you know it. Murder and worse like mayhem and rape/murder are evil. That is not subjective unless you are very sick indeed.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Murder is not always considered wrong, and you know it. There is war. There is capital punishment. There is self defense. Some cultures think cannibalism and human sacrifice is good. You don't get to judge what you don't like as evil.
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is a difference between murder and homicide. And I am human and can judge what is evil. So let us just agree to disagree on this point.
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  Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible is not the claim about God, it is the evidence about Him, because it point on Him. The evidence point to the criminal to prove he is guilty of the crime in the court proceedings.
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aguasilverposted 9 years ago
The bible becomes proof for those who find a modicum of faith and apply it to seeking understanding.

When God finds that faith in one, He will reach out to bring the understanding, invite the recipient to enter a personal relationship with Him, and provide the proof by way of empowering them with the same authority that Yeshua was carrying.

When you see miracles happening, being a pedant over 'evidence' that some person demands becomes rather insignificant, when the God of all creation is available to receive your requests and action them in accord with His will, then forum style debates over jots and titels are worthless.

The Quran IS evidence of Allah, it's evidence that like so many others the enemy sought to deceive and confuse those who love God, into submitting themselves to him, Satan / Lucifer / The Enemy, the god of this world who seeks the destruction of all those who choose not to seek and find Jehovah, Yeshua and the Rauch HaKadesh, and instead seek personal intellect or corporate religiosity over personal relationship and Kingdom authority.

Your mistake was entering Churchianity for that theological 'education', those places are designed to kill real faith and replace it with inefficient doctrines of man if they cannot destroy the 'student'.

Try getting on your knees and asking the Rauch HaKadesh to come into your spirit again and restore your first love, or.... stay separated and keep asking these futile questions in an attempt to scratch that itch.

A broken spirit and a contrite heart He will NOT deny.

He obviously still loves you deeply and seeks your restoration to His presence, it's you who walked out, see if your heart has room for a restoration, I know His does.

May the shalom of heaven be released in you.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I find it interesting how you assert superiority over someone because they did not come to the same conclusion as you. On top of that, you tell them they have made a mistake.
  
  Hoo boy...
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God asserts the authority, I simply say what He tells me.
  
  I know atheists have made a mistake, how could I not tell them?
  
  That would be unkind, but once told, they can continue as they choose.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So god apparently deems it worthy to tell people such as yourself to tell others not of the same faith that they are wrong, already knowing that they will not believe without any proof.
  I guess curing cancer is less important...
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  
  Saving people from eternal separation from God is obviously more important important than curing cancer, which is curable anyway with THC oil among other things.
  
  Atheists obviously are uncomfortable with annihilation, but are nihilists.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  With that logic, i wonder why you probably wear a seatbelt and take care of your overall health.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I wear a seat belt because it's the law, however I am old enough to have been driving before they made it law, during which time I did not wear a seat belt.
  
  God takes care of my health, not been ill for years, God is the best 'policy' to have.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Best policy indeed. I'll remember to ask if that's true if I ever meet a terminally ill patient and why your health seems to take precedent over theirs.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My health takes no precedence over any other persons, I just have a better 'doctor' who is not limited by science and white coat medicine.
  
  Anyone can consult Him and He can heal any disease, but you do need an appointment, faith and trust in Him.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You dont actually live In reality anymore do you?
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, I live very much in reality, just not yours, you rely on worldly things that turn to dust and anyway cannot help you, and then bitch at people who have a better 'reality'.
  
  You seem to begrudge all believers relationships with God.
  
  Why?
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  Lybrahposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good question, Agua
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  GREAT question!!
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, .... no answer, and I guess there is no answer to be had.
  
  I wish there were one, for if they would truly examine WHY they are so fixated on believers and have to keep trying to shake our faith, maybe they would better see their condition.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You have him 95 minutes to answer, and then decided that he couldn't? Are people supposed to be on your schedule?
  
  And, jt, when atheists agree, you say "the buddies are together again" should the same be said for you and all Christians?
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  For once we are in the right place at the right time. I hope this is a trend. Christians need to have a voice. You people far outnumber the Christians on this site. This is why you swarm. To try and convince one another you are right.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I realise that sometimes we have lives to lead, but he replied to my last comment in minutes, likewise me 5 minutes later.
  
  Now I am off to bed, and then work, so will be out for 16 hours or more, plenty of time for an answer.
  
  You can also answer?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jt: What are the statistics and ratio of Christians to atheists on this site? Christians to people of other faiths? How do you collect your data? How was it tested and confirmed? Or is your bias just showing again?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Umm, ever think that I was out working as well? I replied within minutes because I had some time to myself, and then I went back to work. Get real Agua.
  As for the question, I dont begrudge anyone. I ask people to back up their claims. Never happens
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  Aime Fposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  agua, how do you explain the terrible things that happen to Christians (cancer at a young age, car accidents, etc.) if it's as simple as God just healing you and keeping you healthy?
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Aime: "how do you explain the terrible things that happen to Christians..... and keeping you healthy?"
  
  Can't answer that in 170 characters!
  
  Maybe I will do that as a hub, or as a question reply, when I get back from work!
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is the proof! Here we have link, JM, and Aimee all joining in to bash agua!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Is asking questions, which is all aimee did, consisted bashing? All I did was point out that it was unreasonable to put time limits on the response of a perfect stranger and expecting them to somehow know it. Neither are bashing. No proof.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pffft..... This your MO. You ALWAYS gang up on the Christian just because they make you wonder about your own ideology.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So is it fair to say that rather than you and Aqua happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, the two of you were ganging up on an atheist? Wouldn't that be your mo? Or is it a double standard for your "side"?
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.. it just so happens that I noticed agua and his "great" ideology and didn't see it fair that he was being bashed by you people. Give me ONE example where the Christians are bashing an atheist. It is always the other way around.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I consider the way you refer to atheists as "you people" as disrespectful. I consider the things you regularly say to many of us could be considered bashing. You call it defending your beliefs, but if an atheist does it, they're bashing you.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And again, why do you feel the need to debate about something that you do not believe in. Do you think you are going to convert Christians to not believe? All of you are wasting your time. God is real!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I talk about it because it's fun and I have a history in both theology and history, and I like the discussion. I'm not trying to deconvert anyone. Why do you argue? You're certainly not saving any souls here. You seem to enjoy baiting people.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  People do not save souls. Jesus Christ does if you accept him.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So if your aim is not to convince anyone of the "truth" that you claim to have, why spend so much time arguing about it? You demand answers from us repeatedly, but you don't seem to be able to answer the same question - or stay on topic.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My wish is for everyone to be saved. But, if we even mention God on here we are immediately bashed.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JT, the truth is you see the existence of atheists as bashing. You think you can get away with saying anything you want to us as "defending" what you believe in, but anything we say you consider "bashing" you personally. Its hypocrisy.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM... Have you ever thought how many people you have influenced not to believe in God? Their blood is on your hands. As a Christian we are to spread the good news of Christ. Where does it say that an atheist must spread hate towards God?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  you intentionally bait atheists looking for a fight and an opportunity to minimize and dehumanize us. I ask sincere questions because of a genuine interest to understand. There's the difference between us, and everyone can see it. Goodbye.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is not true. I take up for my God and I am continually bashed for it. I truly hope you see the truth one day JM.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever considered that perhaps the reason people talk to you in a way you think is "bashing" is directly related to the way you talk to them?. You reap what you sew, JT. It's sad that you can't see or recognize that. I feel sorry for you.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm done with you, JT. AS you've recently stated - on your questions, you can delete whomever and whatever you want. Well, this is my question, and I would rather talk to a genuine person than one who just wants to play games. Goodbye.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Calling someone out on their BS, which consists of telling people they are wrong but their lives are worse (aka pathetic) compared to his is considered ganging up. Yet when 2 others join to agree with him and not contribute anything, its not.
  Lol
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  By the way JM, "You reap what you sow." not sew. I thought you were familiar with the Bible and its verses? Censor my answers all you want. This just means you are intimidated.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Attacks on minor grammar mistakes. How mighty of you JT.
  
  So I guess you are intimidated by me, you know with all my comments you have censored? Guess you were intimidated by Ally as well.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe I was addressing you link. NO is the answer to that. Im just tired of your babbling. JM is just intimidated and come to think of it, your whole group must be intimidated by me.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, no personal attacks.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Deleting his comment is irrelevant!
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't particularly view that as a personal attack, but I understand the logic of it.
  Whoopsie.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link- I would strongly advise you to just ignore him. He lives for the argument and trying bait people into getting banned. Let him think whatever he wants, eventually he will get bored taking to himself. I don't care what he thinks about me.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM.... You do not know me personally. How can you stand in judgement of me? Wow! Just wow!
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I realized that weeks ago. I enjoy how he backs himself into corners, cries how people are attacking him, then vanishes and/or deletes his questions so you cant see the comments anymore.
  That's why I started taking snapshots
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God help all of you.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Kind of like that actually, 3 comments above
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, if all he can criticize is the spell check on my phone attempting to get a reaction, it's him that looks bad, not me. He even argues with other Christians who disagree with him. I think he just wants attention. He won't get mine.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously they weren't true Christians, being open minded and all.
  Duh.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link - duh. Want a really good laugh? In a comment I deleted since it was unrelated, he voted for the Mormon as the best answer. Should have saved that one for posterity, but it made me chuckle to see a fundamentalist root for a Mormon.
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  Aime Fposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks agua, I am genuinely curious to see your answer.
  
  JThomp- my name is LITERALLY right in front of your face, I'm not sure why you insist on spelling it wrong. Repeatedly.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Aime, I will do a hub on that subject, on my drive to work I was given lots of info to include, BUT I work in a very intense workplace, and concentrate 8 hours a day, so I'm worn out most nights, but I will do it, and post to you when done.
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  Lybrahposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I want to say for the record that I don't find JT to be condescending or belittling. He speaks the truth. I think some OTHER people are the ones spewing the hate and they just don't realize it. Leave JT alone!
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Lybrah, you dont understand the most basic of things when you read them, or even when they are explained to you in the simplest way possible, so I can see how you would think that. We will just ignore that JT jumped into the conversation I guess.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Lybrah! But, I am afraid it is like talking to a brick wall. May God bless you always!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, lybrah, and it's just a coincidence that you two happen to agree. Telling people how they truly feel or what they truly think is insulting. Admitting he behaves badly would mean admitting you do as well. Can't have honesty, clearly.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good morning JM.
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  scahoonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God is the reason for our existence. You have to have a relationship with him. The Bible is how we know God and his ways of doing things, his attributes. you can't say you know anyone if you don't spend time with them..
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Chahoon, yeah you can't just make blind, blanket assertions without proving them. Not only that, but you're making a lot of blind assumptions, too.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  She can make those 'assumptions' because she (or he) has found the faith that leads to the proof, you just cannot accept that, but it's YOU who need to prove the bible is NOT proof of God, as YOU are making the allegation (believers know the truth)
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So if I found faith that led to me believing that space dragons exist and told you as such without any proof would you believe me? I would imagine not so wouldnt it be crazy for me to demand proof from you that they dont when I haven't proved it yet?
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No Link, I may even ask how I could meet them, to prove it for myself, or maybe just say nothing as I had no desire to meet Space Dragons.
  
  But I would NOT insist you prove it to me, or badger you daily trying to disprove them.
  
  Why are you afraid?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Now lets throw in the twist and say that my faith has showed me that these space dragons created mankind and deserve worship or else they will eat your soul as fact.
  
  And afraid of what exactly? Im scared of death to a degree if u mean that.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Why would you be scared of death, it's just oblivion in your understanding?
  
  Nothingness...
  
  So why be afraid, here one minute, gone the next, with nothing following, least that's what you seem to believe.
  
  I used to believe that, I was not afraid.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I am afraid of it because, to a degree, I can imagine ceasing to exist. Under certain circumstances, it's a terrifying concept.
  
  Are you not afraid of death because you have your god, or simply because you never actually gave it any real thought?
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  When I thought like you it never bothered me, like Woody Allen I was not afraid, just did not want to 'be there' when it happened!
  
  As a believer I know I existed before life in spirit form, and will again after, so whats to fear?
  
  If I were wrong...
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Its one thing to think that, but to assert it as fact is something else. Either way, there is some form of rejecting reality going on there, since one cannot know for certain until they die.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly Link, one day we will die, and either know we were right or wrong, or in my case, not know if I was wrong.
  
  If you were wrong, and subconsciously suspected it now, deep down, I could understand your apprehension over death.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I say that I have no way to know the answer and you still imply that deep down I know the truth and am afraid of it
  Good day Agua.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  According to scripture, Ezekiel tells us to warn the wicked. If someone is following the doctrine of man instead of God, they must be warned. see Ezekiel 3 AS was not acting superior, you just feel inferior
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muthiriposted 9 years ago
I would like to answer your question through human mind, ideas, theories and what they call logic.
I cannot deny the correctness of koran or any other book of religion, but i would want to give undeniable proof that the bible can give answer to all questions and solution to all problems.
Alexander the great slaughtered all the Jews in 70 AD. Today he is just memories that are so far that our current generations know nothing about him at all.

Adolf Hitler came with a mighty thud such that all that heard of him shook to their roots. Today, his name is used just as a proverb where even those who use it have no idea what he did.

Mussolini was a mighty man of those days, today he is hardly remembered even in his own country.

Issac Newton, said that there is nothing like God when he was writing his Newtonic laws, at his deathbed, he said God is there and is real.

Albert Eisteigh, who came up with the law of relativity summarized his wise words by saying that there is unexplainable super power.
All that have devoted their lives to live a religious life have died rejoicing , though they could have lived sorrowful lives.
History can be easily forgotten if it was just effort of men, but the supernatural 'God related' remain in human minds forever

God is there according to the happenings of nature Whatever people may call him. Whether Allah, Jehovah, Jesus he is the same.
The only proof that i can give you of his true religion is where he manifests himself to men that he is among them. This is not by men struggling to do according to their religion but his showing that he works among them.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  None of that is proof that the Bible is actually true. As a master's degree seeking history major, I don't need to be taught history. Also, historical anecdotes are not evidence of anything other than anecdotes, especially when untrue.
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  cjhunsingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  murtiri--My academic background is in Political and religious philosophy so I may be wrong here, but I think Alexander the Great lived 300 years earlier and was Greek, not Roman, Are you thinking of the Roman Procurator Alexander?
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  Austinstarposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Alexander the great slaughtered all the Jews in 70 AD" False - Jews are still around, so Alexander could not have slaughtered ALL of them! This is a good example of a false statement.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM:"Three in 4 in U.S. see the Bible as the Word of God!"gallup.com 06/14Why would so many believe in "a book" for such an extended period of time, if they have no personal proof? "Something" must have occurred in their lives for them to believe?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  One has to wonder how many of those people have actually read the bible front to back, rather than have the good parts spoon fed to them by their church. Seems to be a lot of former Christians that became atheists/other after doing so.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's called an appeal to popularity, and it's a logical fallacy. In the middle east, 99.9% see the Koran as the word of god. By your logic, they must be right, too. Being told something is true is not a good reason to believe it.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jag: All "good parts!" II Tim 3:16. Not "Cinderella" must read n the Spirit! Jn 4:24.Believing not looking for proof or factsJM: They're being prepared! Look at TBN moving into Middle East now! "...and then shall the end come!" Matt 24:14. Be ready!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus aid that not all people standing there would taste death before he returned. That was 2000 years ago. They're not alive anymore. The prophesy failed.
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  SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  When did John the Revelator die?
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Matt 16:28;Mk 9:1; Lk 9:27: "...til they see the kingdom of God! Spiritual death! Everything in Scripture should be read in the Spirit! Again I tell you, John 4:24! Religion has not taught this! Start over & read Scripture "In the Spirit
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Norine, I can almost guarantee that I've read Scripture more times and in the original languages more times than you have. Again, saying that your interpretation is the spirit doesn't make it true. Your thoughts disagree with almost all I've met
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: U display interest so HS found you! Ur right Gal 1:6!Man didn't teach me this!Not what I was taught either, but it makes sense if "worshiping in the Spirit!" I'm sure u have read n more languages than I! Too much kills! II Cor 3:6 SD:Jn 21:22
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. You're typing electronically in the Internet. What made that possible? Knowledge. Learning. Too much wisdom never hanged anything, but ignorance sure does.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Yes, ignorance does (I Cor 2:12-16)! You & I agree on that!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If you agree that ignorance harms, why are you so opposed to knowledge, learning and education? Did you just not like the facts they were teaching you about Christian beliefs and history? Do you go to a doctor when you're sick? Why?
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: I'm not opposed to knowledge, lrning, or ed that's why I began Masters in Theology, but they taught "religion" which I opposed! Found Holy Spirit is much better Teacher! Look at what He's taught me! U've never heard of It before & you have e
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You aren't opposed to knowledge, yet you openly admit that facts don't mix with your faith.
  
  I think there's a disconnect somewhere in there...
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JAG: There is a disconnect! Not being in the Spirit! Facts are from men Faith is "believing" the unknown/unproven that is what IS WRITTEN in Scripture!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I've heard it before - always from people with no background in history or knowledge of how Christianity & the Bible began who somehow arrogantly assume that after 2000 years, they're the only ones who are right And disagree with everyone.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: I'm growing! Increasing in grace! That's why "unheard of!" Holy Spirit "teaches" and those that do not have a relationship with Him, but can only look at history and/or facts will "NEVER" understand!
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  Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pride corrupt the mind and heart.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ponce: Don't confuse "truth in the Word" w/pride (Heb 4:12)! Boldness v pride(Acts 4:31, Prov 28:1)! History/Facts=Prov 3:5-6! I only state facts from script & if not=foolishness! U call it pride, I call It the Word of God! W/O relationship=Nothi
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manatita44posted 9 years ago
I went into much more detail in one of Graceinus Hubs about the value of inner experience. Too tired for more now, but yes, without this we are simply talking and posing theories. There is a world of difference between embodying the Light and talking about the Light. They are different things and far apart. Perhaps this supports your arguments.

However, we should not exclude books. Everything helps in a world of 'seeming' sadness and much pain. Scriptures grant us solace for this reason and points us to avenues of help that we ourselves need to unlock. You seem to know this. Peace, Bro.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen! One "must" embody the "Light!" Too much knowledge makes the "flesh" doubt! Remove self (flesh) and one might "see!" That's exactly why I stopped working on my Master's Degree in Theology - did not want man's thinking interfering with my belief
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The only people that are afraid of knowledge and facts are the ones who are not as confident in their faith as they claim and fear they may be proven wrong.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: I read mostly lies written by man not filled with the Holy Spirit (Num 23:19)! I love to read opinions of others otherwise I wouldn't be on HP! However, trash in - trash out!
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christiananrkistposted 9 years ago
i think it depends on the topic. Area's i think its logical to use the bible are when someone else quotes the bible and asks you to explain it, when a quality or action of our specific God is in question, when another character in the bible is in question, or when asked how it correlates with real life and/or historical/archaeological finds. basically when its the direct thing in question, i think its ok to use it. then there are moments such as scientific questions or even proving to an unbeliever that god exists. you cant just say god exists because the bible says.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. Truths in the Bible like historical or archeological facts do not make all of it true, and you can't use the Bible to prove what the Bible says is true without circular logic. Good answer.
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  Cristeta Blancoposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's very true my friend. We cannot say that God exist not just because the bible prove it but because we in ourselves definitely feel the presence of God in our lives.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Prov 28:1. Read Simon Greenleaf! Blanco: Amen!
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erorantesposted 9 years ago
Many years ago, there were a lot of writers . They all used to write diaries of people and events. If you visit any church . They have bible study. You can find the truth of past events. It is like being an archeologist finding awnsers.The bible make sense because all the stories in the bible conect to each other.I belive in God. I hope you find the correct awnsers.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Having a book that contains stories do not make the stories within that book true. All of the stories in the Harry Potter series connect to each other, and they make sense, but it doesn't make them true or factual.
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  cjhunsingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  erontes--How many years ago and what writers are you talking about? Very few could write.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM, be reasonable with whom you talk to. Believers have faith, you do not. so from their perspective it is truth. Your method is truth is not shared by them. Why do you have to force your standard on them when they are content and happy?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There are hidden mysteries in the Jewish Tanakh, they aren't just stories. You have to become spiritual to understand them. Harry Potter was written knowing the end of the story. That's not true of the bible. Why do you care anyway?
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  Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Julie, you are right, but the Bible is a book with power that not only connect the fact but it can transform life. Do you believe you came from your parents? And do you believe your parents came from stories or theories?
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Rachael Tateposted 9 years ago
Your comments are no doubt true in the US but in Britain, Christianity has moved more with the times and most would acknowledge that many of the stories in the bible would not be acceptable and nor would we want them to be today. The difference between the Bible and the Quran in my mind is that the Bible tells tales which are meant to convey a moral, albeit often a screwed up one for modern times. The Quran however reads much more like a guide for how to live one's life, it is very specific in terms of how one is to behave in their day to day lives and has less room for interpretation. As an atheist I can accept believers taking a historical story which has a moral root and accepting that as the actions of a higher being, although personally I prefer to have faith in mankind. I struggle with the idea of a God who took the time to detail how a person should disperse of their belongings upon death. It seems rather materialistic for a God. It might not be true in America but in Britain Christianity is no longer primarily about blindly following a rule book. Don't get me wrong, we do have a few of that type too but blind faith is difficult to argue with. I'm not sure I've actually answered the question so yes that would be the definition of a circular argument, but it's an interesting discussion point.
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CynthiaMHarrisposted 9 years ago
The Bible is the only true word of God. It is hard for people who don't walk with the Lord to understand it. I believe that when a person opens his or her heart to receive the wisdom of the Lord then and only then will that person's eyes be opened to receive what is so clear to those who have a relationship with God. Try asking God to reveal his word to you in ways that you have not known. As far as Allah and the Koran - the Koran has just enough excerpts from the Bible to give people something to believe in. The rest of the Koran is man made and offers a false hope of worthiness. I am not sure why people are relegated to try to disprove the Bible when it preaches a life of love, humility, and selflessness none of which cause harm to anyone. The selfish nature of man is what drives the conflict in man to go against any teaching that requires selflessness.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Great answer Cynthia!
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  CynthiaMHarrisposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks!!!
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  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Love, humility, I guess your bible doesn't contain the OT and about 3/4 of the NT.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you understand, Cynthia. We don't have to disprove the Bible. It hasn't been proven. Until something is proven, disproving it is unnecessary, kind of like God. The burden of proof rests with believers that claim absolute truth
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JMcFarland: Read what is said in Bible regarding the signs in the sky & watch the sky! Have you seen the blood moon recently? Read what it says about wars. Is it not true? How could "man" know these things over 2000 yrs ago? Only God thru p
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The blood Moon has happened and been documented for literally thousands of years. If it's an eminent sign, your God doesn't know what eminent means, which is strange.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Joel prophesied! First happened on Passover! Who wrote about before Blue Moons before Joel's prophesy? Jesus IS "I AM!" How would "man" have known prior to Joel's prophesy? Come on now! Here's just one proof! Oh ye of little faith!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's not a prophecy if you see a blood moon and write about it. They've been happening for thousands of years. It's rather common in certain seasons due to axial tilt/rotation.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Who wrote of blood moons first? HS guided Joel! Rev 22:18-19. Oh, I forgot u don't believe in the operation of the Holy Spirit either!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  First? The sumerians or the egyptians.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Where's Proof?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The irony...
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I dunno. .. history? Writings that predate the Bible by thousands of years.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Your attitude toward my belief is "prove it!" Why don't you "prove" your beliefs to me?
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Because, Norine, you have not provided one single shred of proof for your claims, you've just made more claims, and I have no interest in doing your homework when you cannot. Secondly, mine are provable, verifiable facts - not beliefs.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: I have proof of my beliefs - "Benefits=personal facts!" This is a "personal Spiritual journey" which reqs belief! I'm not interested in history fm MAN (Num 23:19), that seems to be ur concern so I need not do HW! Prov 3:5-6
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, you say that you have proof and claim that your beliefs are true, neither of which constitute facts or proof. People from all religions claim benefits. Are all those beliefs true too? If so, then you're NOT correct in your assertion.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I John 4:1-5 I've tried the spirits and Jesus works for me! If Atheism works for you, so be it! I've tried to explain but it appears you have been given over to "a reprobate mind!" Rm 1:28. Why must u seek facts or proof? Prov 3:5-6 First Step!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You have no idea what I've been given over to. You're just assuming things that you want to be true and then further assuming that they're true. How did you test your "spirit"?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Not interested in history from man...
  
  Norine, you didn't by any chance go to a religious school/was homeschooled were you?
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  JM: Fm ur writings you "...do not like to retain God in your knowledge..."which Scripture says is a "reprobate mind!" Tried different denominations/religions! All kinds of spirits out there! Jag: School of the Holy Spirit/Jesus! Man lies! Num 23:19
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  We all must seek facts and truth through proof. Faith is different but just a faith is worthless without deed so is it worthless with some foundation.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric: Were u asking me? If so, Facts & Faith don't mix! One must "believe" & have "faith" in Scripture! Jm 2:14-26. You believe, Holy Spirit works changing you from "glory to glory!" II Cor 3:18
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Wow Norine, I have never heard that. I cannot understand and know certain facts, because I have faith?
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric: Facts ("proof" reqd of man/documented evidence) & Faith (Unseen/Heb 11:1) don't mix! Wow Eric I thought u knew what "faith" was??? I'll repeat it again! Facts & Faith don't mix!
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Zeron87posted 9 years ago
I've seen your responses to people's questions, JMcFarland, and I see what you're looking for: You want proof that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true. As a true Christian and one of a scientific mind, I can say there is no way to prove every story in the Bible is true, and that's the purpose of BELIEVING buddy. You don't know everything in it is true, but you believe it is (or at least symbolic of something else). The point of Christianity is having faith in something other than yourself, in knowing you can get far in this life, but just like every other monkey, ant, rodent, or roach, we will all die, and no amount of knowledge you have, or money, or people, will change that. No one on this planet is even close to God, and no one ever will be. We are nothing more than a tiny specks of stardust on the grand scale of the cosmos. A meteorite or a sailing, celestial body (there are planets that just float around space at 1,000s of mps) could hit the Earth today and wipe out everything we know and love (and the government, or even the top scientist in the world, wouldn't tell you anything about it, to reduce panic of course), making everything we've given to future generations pointless. Pretty grim look at things, but humans in the grand scheme of God, of the cosmos are nothing. Faith teaches people their place in the world, and humility to understand how precious life is, and that time is better well spent hugging one's family instead of stomping shadows in the dark that LOOK scary. Not pointing any elbows, jus' sayin'.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Those Scribes, Pharisees & unbelievers had no "come back" because what you have stated is true!
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Ericdierkerposted 9 years ago
The bible is proof. It is a written document that exists. (now do not get that confused with "It proves God exists".) A bullet does not prove that someone was shot with a gun. Even if it is found inside the victim. It is proof that a bullet was found inside the victim. People get way too confused on that issue.
The bible can and is used in a court of law as proof. It can be proof of many things. It can be proof of what someone believes. It can be proof that many people believe in it. Shucks it could have a bullet hole in it and was carried by our victim above and is further proof he was shot.
So your question is a definite YES the Bible can be proof.

Can it be proof of the existence of God? Yes and it is very very weak proof with more holes than a sieve or screen door. But there is evidence that it was written and when it was written and it can be the basis for proving a belief. A man takes the stand and swears there is a God. He offers the Bible of proof of his belief. That is really a worthless piece of truth to most triers of fact but not all. We believe that Pluto exists. It is really lousy proof that it is a planet or exists actually today. But by seeing the object in space we believe it is there today. The sun "came up" yesterday is good proof that it will come up tomorrow --- WRONG. It is proof but it is bad proof and I do not believe it will come up tomorrow because it came up today -- but most people think that is good logic. So it is proof.
Scientific proof is better because it is more concrete. I like it better. But it is not the only proof in town. Circumstantial evidence can be proof out here in the human world. Coincidence can lead to a proof of something wrong. But the proof may be there.
Life is not all tidy. Proof to me may not be proof to you. Yet we can both be valid. Lipstick on the collar of my shirt is proof of an affair, unless you knew that my wife kissed me good bye this morning.
The Bible is proof of God but does not prove God and is not proof in a scientific sense that everyone must accept. 20 billion people could all have been or are currently wrong. But they may not be.
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  erorantesposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What do you think about moses.?
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Someone testified to that portion of the Bible. There are a lot of reasons to disbelieve that account, but also many to believe it. Geography looks right and the timing is right. And the occurence of leaving Egypt looks right.
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  cjhunsingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric--What 20 billion people? This claim speaks well to the rest of your position. Do you really think a bible (which one) would be accepted in a court of law to validate the existence of a god and which one?
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I think Eric meant 2 billion Christians in the world today. The largest religion in the world.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I like the way cjhunsinger made statements and gave dates, as though they were correct, but everything he said is incorrect. Making up stuff to prove his point. All lies
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Nicolemb82posted 9 years ago
I, actually, am with you on this one. I have seen so many discrepancies and contradictions that I often wonder the same thing. It is stories written by people who are telling their version of an "event". I wonder how differently it would be if someone else wrote those same occurrences down. My dad, who was raised devout Roman Catholic, has said many times that it is nothing but a history book reliving certain events of a time before what we all know. I have always viewed it as such, and do not necessarily take it word for word at face value. Don't get me wrong, I go to church and have my beliefs, but I do not always agree with what is being said. I feel church is a way for me to express my emotions, have some thinking/meditation time, sing and dance (worship) how I want, but that does not mean I take everything as someone else. So many people interpret the Bible as a way of life, and conform each verse to fit their specific situation, but if you try reading it straight through, without interpreting it in any way, or thinking too much about it, you will find that you are reading a story book, much like what you would read to a child at bedtime. I guess it becomes a matter of what we want to believe took place all those years ago in history, just like if we were to read about the Civil War, the Holocaust, Amelia Earhart, etc. Since we did not exist during this time, or during any of the above mentioned events, we have to determine for ourselves what about the history is real and what is not.
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Amp Leeposted 9 years ago
To a critical thinking there is NO evidence in the Bible. To the critical thinker the process in which the any great book came about will be problematic. If you approach to any of the great books with that expectation then you will easily conclude the origins do not stand up to the standard you are using. To many passing the litmus test your using is a requirement. In my humble opinion there are plenty of very helpful lessons of life and stories that help you relate to others. In time everyone learns the value of relating to others is a key element of success. I would also suggest if you were to approach a Bible with a healthy mix of academic and entertainment value you will come away richer in both particularly when comparing the return of your time investment to the many other available forms of entertainment that are not typically not nearly as nutrient rich for your mind.

It is hard not to perceive your post as an inquiry with an intent to cast doubt into believers and "help them" see their error. All claims do not require evidence. A faith does not require your evidence because then it would be undisputable fact. Religions, faith, and spirituality are not factual evidence by the scientific method you want to apply, but it is evidential to many or sufficiently useful and comforting. Humans are inherently emotional and these books help a great many deal with their emotions and provide helpful reference of good life. Also keep in mind many scientific fact at various points in time have turned out to be wrong due to our lack of understanding at the time.

Lastly, where is the question mark in your title? How can you raise a question without proper punctuation?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  When that claim is said to be absolute fact is when it requires evidence. If I said space dragons exist as fact, would you believe it with no proof?
  Also, you do realize the wording of a question is more important than the ending punctuation right?
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Who said it was an absolute fact? I have never run into any Christian that ever professed their faith is an absolute fact.
  
  You deserve my punctuation remark because you were wrong. Just take the "L."
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong about what, exactly? Plenty of Christians proclaim that their faiths are true here on hub pages without ever backing it up. In fact, a few of them are here on this thread.
  But I am wrong it seems...
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said earlier if you said space dragons exist as fact, I would want to start a relationship with them, so that I could be sure it was the right decision to ignore or believe in them.
  
  I would NOT pester you to try and stop your belief.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link10103. Writing a question without question mark is wrong. I must apologize first because I thought your comment was from JMcFarland and I was saying he was wrong to ask a question without a question mark. Secondly people do not have to prove
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Agua, whose belief am I pestering in an attempt to stop? You keep saying that but haven't elaborated much on it.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That is more a collective statement (as in 'an unbelief of atheists') because atheists tend to gather where scripture or Yeshua are mentioned, and keep taking digs at peoples faith or belief.
  
  Whereas right now we seem to be having a decent chat!
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I would imagine that those places are where atheists are directly being attacked, or truth with absolutely no evidence is being claimed.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Christians have no obligation to prove to you what is to self evident to them. Religion and spirituality is a person truth you are asking for scientific proof. Are we all created equal. No we are not, can someone have perceptions you lack? Why not
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A theist has every obligation to prove what they believe to be true when they deny the validity of other religions and assert that they have divine knowledge.
  If it's simply "I believe this", then no they do not have an obligation at all.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link10103, am I correct you want proof that God exists?
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So your saying a person I love is true, but I can not comment on other peoples love or have an opinion and say your relationship with your wife is not true because I have to prove to you my love for my wife it Valid first and foremost?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I want the people claiming that their god is true and those who don't follow said god will regret it to actually provide some evidence that that is accurate. Otherwise it's only a bunch of BS being imposed upon others. And no, i dont secretly believe
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You already know these is no proof by the standard you seek, yet you keep asking. The very nature of faith is quite personal. How is it "imposed upon you and others?" By your parents making you go to church? Does any salesperson impose BS on you?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amp, i already said if it's simply an opinion there is no need to prove anything. Is there a reason you are ignoring things to continually attack what I say?
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You are ignoring key questions. You said people "impose things on you" yet fail to support your claim. You say it is "BS" when I have been very clear it is "Truth to them" and you can conclude it is BS because it doesn't pass your test, fine Whoopi
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I was addressing your other comment first.
  Its BS because it cannot pass any test to prove its validity. Its BS because it instills fear in small children that lasts until adulthood. Its BS because it's used to cement power and control over others.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Your conclusions: 1-Not valid for you so can't be valid for anyone. 2-Speculative, no facts. 3-As if other models are clearly better? Everyone is happy if your on the right side of authority. Again, explain how it "Impose things on you" so far FAIL
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amp, you do realize there are character limits to comments right? When religion begins to affect laws and schools is when it starts to impose upon people's lives
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is separation of church and state. You are not in a monarchy. Everyone has a voice due to Dem/Repb there are plenty of wrong thinking people and it is not just because of their religion. Stereo type much?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Speaking of stereo types, can you think of any openly atheist politicians in the US? Can't really say I am well versed in politics, so a second opinion would be nice.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, the reason there are few declaring atheists in government is possibly because you represent approx 2% of the US population, whereas Christians (professing or practicing) represent 80%.
  
  Nothing to do with suppression, just selection and choice.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So you are saying there is no way an atheist could represent values held by a Christian, Agua?
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, your representing very poorly for the atheist cause. Agua is showing wisdom, providing basic facts, and respectful discord. We are approaching the 8th hole and you sir on third base. My Atheist friends are going to scratch their heads.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amp, its hard to take what you say seriously when you ignore, distort, and invent new meanings to whatever I say. However much I disagree with Agua, he at least makes sense most of the time.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link10103, in the first place you can ignore anyone who tries to impose his religious belief on you. He can do nothing to you. Secondly, because of the limit on comments, I will post my response to your demand for the proof of God.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link you are IMPOSING ON ME things that are false, made up, illogical and made up. Are you going to start telling me Space Dragons exist? You are being delusional and making things up that are not based in fact. Stop pestering others 4 their faith
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you can point out which of my illogical and false beliefs I was imposing upon you with my questions and purposely out there hypothetical Amp, its been nice talking to you.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So you are saying there is no way an atheist could represent values held by a Christian, Agua?
  
  Not at all Link, just quoting political reality, people vote for who they can feel comfortable with, we cannot change human nature.
  
  God brings assurance.
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Ben Aidooposted 9 years ago
In itself the bible does not prove that God exists. It is a road map built around the precept, "treat others as you would want to be treated". This precept spiritually takes you to a place where you receive revelations that are translated into personal experiences in your life as proof of God's existence. Unlike a scientific theory that can be proved in a laboratory, the proof of God comes to you through revelation and personal experience. Consequently, each person would find his or her own proof of God through personal experience. Not surprisingly, there are people who would never have that experience because they would not "treat others as they would want to be treated". Again, the bible is not a proof in itself, it's a means to the proof of God's existence.
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  Amp Leeposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I was echoing statements to Agua and Link. No one said you had to believe or ignore. Those are not the only choices available. I am confused about your pester comment since I have seen plenty people from either camp pester people inappropriately.
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  bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Take a look at the world today, and find that God, or good trumps evil.
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Deborah Sextonposted 9 years ago
One proof of a Creator is nature.
Most living creatures have most things in common, one exception is that man speaks words, has reasoning power, and knows within God exists, but just because we don’t understand them doesn’t mean animals don’t communicate.

If we all came about by accident, we would not have so much in common. i.e. children come about by reproduction, we all eat, and digest food the same way etc.

Everything runs in cycles, over, and over.
The bible lists how things came about in nature

I agree that we all evolve through natural selection..but we had to have come from somewhere before all that began.

A lot of stuff in the bible was known before modern man even knew.

They knew the Earth was round (a circle is the same as round)
And knew the sky circled us
Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Although they didn’t call it gravity, they knew the Earth was suspended in midair

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

But God wasn’t meant to be proven, but found by each individual

There are a few more things I view as evidence
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  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I believe the reason the bible is riddled with contradictions is because it was written along the lines of a psychic reader. Throwing of a bunch of information until it hits something you feel a connection with.
  A circle is not he same as a sphere.
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  bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Nature kills, maims, destroys, and causes catastrophe.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen Brad! Rad: The reason the bible has contradictions to u is bcuz you must read "in spirit & in truth" by faith! Believing & having "faith" in the Word of God, seeking "truth" with a "pure heart" is key to "revelation!" John 4:22-24; 14:2
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The main difference between "other" animals and man, is that the former do not preach self-serving nonsense and they are not "up themselves" with self-righteousness.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  J: Man (since so intelligent) better get "up themselves" in Scripture or ..... Worst than other animals!
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petenaliposted 9 years ago
...and we go around the same circle once again. Ultimately, the "proof" of the pudding will be in the eating. We will discover the validity of the Bible (or any other religious belief structure) at the time we die.

I, for one, would not want to find out too late that I didn't believe because there was not enough "proof". Eternity is a loooooong time to get it wrong.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Once again using an appeal to emotion or fear. Realistically speaking, if the Bible is the only evidence available, then admittedly the god described within it is the worst communicator imaginable, to the point of incompetence.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There are probably hundreds of different versions of hell from all the other gods that are thought to exist. Technically speaking, if you believe in god you have even less of a chance of being right than an atheist does at being wrong
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link.. is that a risk you are willing to take?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I dont really care. I am not sure why fear is a factor here for an all loving god. It seems you are equally willing to chance angering a god who might exist/be more powerful than yours because you were too scared to consider possibilities.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Okay link
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Final note, if other gods have anything like the first commandment, you are taking much more of a risk than atheists are.
  Seems you are fine with that though. To each their own.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Demanding proof of God is a tactic often used by atheists, yet denying the nature of God. They won't accept that the nature of an answer should be congruent with the nature of the question. Thus, God being a spirit, only a spiritual answer would do.
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  aguasilverposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Believers do not fear God in the manner you refer to, they recognise that the choice is between a loving God and a doomed demonic force who wishes to drag all he can into damnation with him.
  
  Some people just choose to ignore the choice.... sad.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, very sad. I think their confusion comes from who they think they are trying to convince. Christians or themselves.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  As you both are choosing to ignore the possibility of other gods and versions of hell existing. People who are not open minded are sad indeed.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The new thing for Link is "the fear of God". In biblical time 'fear' meant 'respect', similar to the respect for your earthly father. In your life time have you heard of a person killed because he didn't obey God? You don't have to fear God.
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  JThomp42posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link... the ONLY thing I am choosing to ignore is you.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And yet the person who this answer belongs to is afraid of eternal damnation due to not believing. It seems even people of the similar faiths have differing opinions about god, Ben.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Link, you must be a mind reader. How would you know that somebody is afraid when the person has not told you he is afraid? You are assuming the person is afraid because of your preconceived notion of God. Is that right?
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Probably because I can read Ben. There isn't much wiggle room if I take that comment as face value, but if I am wrong then Pet is more than welcome to correct me if he comes back. Otherwise, fear is exactly what is implied.
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  Ben Aidooposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pete is being pragmatic, rather than fearful, and he made that choice based on his personal experience, which is certainly different from yours, Link.
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  Link10103posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Pragmatic?
  
  Nice talking to you Ben.
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Norine Williamsposted 9 years ago
If you believe the Scriptures, keep this one Scripture in mind! John 16:13 says, "Nevertheless, when he (the Comforter or the Holy Spirit (Jn.14:26), the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME." Isn't that Awesome! So no matter how many times man changes the bible (or what it really is - The Scriptures), the Holy Spirit WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH! Thank you Jesus!
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  bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The truth is that evil is winning, and good is losing. It started in the Garden with God not watching out for Adam and Eve. Would anyone set two children loose when there was evil around?
  Neither God, Jesus, HS or a Guardian Angel didn't help them.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Satan can't win according to Scripture! Bcuz God is a Jealous God & wants ppl to worship only Him! Yes, He helped them by going to the cross & giving them a choice. He went into grave & preached to them too! Disobedience=consequences!
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  Ericdierkerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Give two citations of "God is a Jealous God". I will bet it is only old T and that there is only one. After Christ God is no longer jealous if he ever were.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric: Matt 22:37-38;Lk 10:27; Mk 12:30 (NT but still under law)! If to "love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart..." was the first & greatest comm, must be jealous! If filled with the Holy Spirit, you will do this & won't want to do anything
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  Rich kelleyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric, half right more than one but OT
  Ex34:14
  Deu6:15
  Ex20:5
  After Christ we no longer run after other gods? There are as many gods as ever out there. We believe Christ is the answer but many don't. The OT is not done away with, it is still His word.
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  Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Eric, the book of revelation is one of best proof that God is a Jealous God. Read and see, how he rebuked the unfaithful churches.
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starsofeightposted 9 years ago
At work, most of my colleagues enjoy sports while I do not. They talk about it all the time as if it had some relevance, and while their words will never be proof to me that sports are note worthy in any way, it is still solid evidence of what they pay attention to and why; where they've been and what they're all about.

If 100 people see something in the sky they consider to be a UFO, but no one takes a picture, still, with all their concert, I must admit that their communication is evidence that they saw something.

When it comes to any old text, I think we are all bright enough to realize there will not be any photographic evidence. We can choose to dismiss something out of hand, or we can try to put the clues into some semblance of meaning. It is up to us, and since that is true, 'proof' or 'no proof' will always be subjective -- and thus: someone's bone of contention.
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  JMcFarlandposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What you are saying would make perfect sense if anyone was denying that the Bible existed, but no one is. Without corroborating evidence and independent verification, however, there is no way to know whether or not what it says is actually true
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bradmasterOCcalposted 9 years ago
The bibleS cannot be self authenticated.
The bible, like WWI didn't start our as the Old Testament, it only became the Old when a New Testament was written.

The Old Testament had forty authors and it took about a thousand years to complete. The New Testament also had multiple authors and it never really took off until the printing press was invented.

Also quoting passages from a two thousand year old story is very outdated, as we are different people in different times.

In that time frame, there should have been an update.
Mohammad tried it by replacing Jesus as a prophet. He really didn't see the future because he didn't select a successor, and that is why the Muslims sects fight and kill each other.
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Rosualdo Ponceposted 9 years ago
It transformed, moved and controlled life. The proof is invisible by faith. Faith is seeing or knowing the unseen. You don't need to see the proof if all men were blind. Faith have eyes to see the reality.
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  Norine Williamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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Luke M Simmonsposted 9 years ago
Using the bible to prove the bible is absolutely circular logic, well said. I'm shocked that people are still committed to their attempt to convince theists that their biblical views are ill-founded. That being said, I am proud to be one of them, and glad for those on my team. People who have been indoctrinated as a child have a very hard time accepting ideals other than those given to them as their brain was in its most plastic developmental stage. For those lacking formal education, its even harder. My favorite shortcut when confronted about theism (and atheism) is illustrated in an example. For a christian, ask "do you believe in Allah?" (they say no). "Do you believe in Zeus, Neptune, or Rah? Good me either. The only reason we are even having this conversation is because I believe in one less god than you do." Seems to work well for Bill Mahr, Richard Dawkins, and Lawrence Krauss.
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