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you have provided no scriptural proof. just supposition and personal belief, that is not what I am looking for. Read the whole q uestion
I provided scripture about God's desire that no one should perish, and what it takes to be saved. There's no direct scriptures for your exact scenario. Its hard to believe we are discussing whether innocent babies are excluded from heaven or not.
Yes Paula you did and if read in the light that one should read scripture then you have made a great point with good scripture. Thank you it was very good to read.
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Norine Williams says
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Not on point?
Hmm - I think you mean "not what I wanted"
eric- totally not. It is talking about the ability to receive as a child and and This has NOTHING to do with salvation of a child, but the attitude of those being converted should have a simple child like ability to receive.
Charlie I like that narrowing of notions. I think it is helpful and will lead us further into inquiry. Great question! You know my perspective, but let us find scripture.
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
eric- good scriptures but not applicable. And also we cant use OT to learn the NT truth. I want the word of God on this subject....to either prove what I see or prove me wrong i dont care which.. pheonix-- not applicable here
No ambiguity here: Let the little children come to me, and DO NOT hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these. Do we hinder them with a doctrine of original sin? Commentary that does not apply to them? What a church says?
pheonix-- correct translation "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
Always put the children first. Especially in Mark 10: 13-14. What does your conscience say? Just an opportunity for an object lesson? Jesus was rather indignant. Always put the children first.
phoen- sorry but it takes two scriptures in correct context and approval from the Holy Spirit to accept anything as scriptural. my conscience(heart) as is that of all mankind, deceitful above all things. plse scripture for always put the chid 1st
There are mill stones for the necks of those that lead children astray. Show them how to sin and they will, the flesh will like it and kill the child like spirit needed to follow after Him.
Did you ask me to provide scripture on whether we should put children first?
Charlie: "phoen- sorry but it takes two scriptures in correct context and approval from the Holy Spirit to accept anything as scriptural. " Deut 19:15 Matt18:16, II Cor 13:1! Amen Charlie! Where is Witn Script for Matt 28:19? They are blind! Gal3
noreen- u use lots of scripture. your churchianity is blocking U from being able to see many truths that the HS would show u. You will not convince those that hear the HS clearly with your inappropriate use of scripture-- just church folks
Explain Charlie! Trying to "learn!" Not what "religion" has taught you, but what the Word of God says!
noreen-- good, then dont answer anything until U have studied it , casting aside what U think U know and asking the Holy Spirit to show you truth. read my hub How to study scripture to find truth
Charlie "Your Hub" is "your interpretation" of the Word! I receive mine "only" from the Holy Spirit! Gal 4:16? He has! I Cor 3:6! It is up to you to be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11 & Study II Tim 2:15! "...man rather than God..?" Acts 4:19
There will always be the problem of one telling us what to believe as opposed to us learning it ourselves. Still we look for some guidance and challenges to our own views. I must be ready to learn from others but not a deviance to what I believe.
Eric that why II Tim 2:15. Acts 8:31 "some MAN..." Then it's up to us to be as Acts 17:11! I Cor 3:6!
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Rich Kelley says
I found this scenario and scripture helpful as David seems to say the baby goes to the Kingdom before him 2 Samuel 12:23 And then I look at the blind dude Mark 10 46-48. Son of David is a title that is accepted.
Rich-- I believe I have some scriptures for this but I am looking and praying someone has the mind of the Lord in the matter as it is very important. So you dont believe we are born in sin? also OT scripture is not appropriate we need NT. ???
I think we are born into a sinful world and by nature follow the examples before us. all the children quotes people are using show us the nature we are to have to enter the kingdom. Born in sin yes born a sinner no. becoming of the world makes us sin
Rich-- glad you replied. I still dont think I have the mind of the Lord on the original sin thing and I want it. Yes the scrip describe the attitude/ demeanor needed to receive the act of grace that gives us entry into the kingdom
My mind is being renewed daily I also desire to come to full knowledge, I know mans original sin teachings end up an excuse, their twisting of the word to fit doctrine turns my stomach. He is a just God and will show us because we seek.
If it is not too personal to ask Charlie, what does your conscience say is the answer to your question? I know you are looking for scripture, but you said you prayed for someone that had the mind of the Lord and that could be you.
phoenix-- when I have the mind of the Lord on a subject I KNOW IT and stop searching. I think I do but cannot prove it and until I can I cannot teach it. see my last comment about deceitful conscience (heart)
I hope you find the correct answer Charlie. Thank you for allowing my two cents.
I have searched the KJV, NASB, NKJV and not found the often used phrases by “believers” Sinless, original sin, sinful nature, sin nature, all manmade terms to support doctrine. Like; per-trib, trinity, OSAS, rapture, pastor, bishop, born a sinner.
Rich: SinlessIICor5:21;Orig sinRm5:12;Sinful natureGal5:17,sin natureJm1:15,pastorEph4:11,bishop ITim 3:1, born a sinner Ps 51:5."Trinity" nowhere. OSAS yes. If HS in you, u will chg fm glory to glory II Cor 3:18. Not asked HS for rapture! II Pet 1
You are making the scripture fit the doctrine you were tough by men and religion. By the way quoting more and more scripture doesn’t make you right. You have yet to quote anything in context for an answer. That is called deception.
noreen-- still trying to bully ur way into having us believe you with inappropriate use of scripture and your denominational errors its funny tho cause the scriptures U use discredit U instead of making your case
Please explain Charlie! Trying to "learn!"
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Grace -- delete?? It is a valuable answer within the guideline. I was hoping to hear from you.
celafoe- Well I'm glad the answer was helpful. And again I wish I had a second supporting verse to my answer but so far I haven't found one. And I'm always happy to hear from you too. Blessings
Graceinus,well said,that all of us are born with a sin nature. There are 19 Bible Verses about Being Born In Sin. http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Being-Born-I... and not one denying it.Babies,yes,born sinners but are covered by His blood
Why does Scripture call children a blessing if they are born damned? Also, the "supporting" verses that people us as "proof" texts is about committed sin.
Amen Aaron the blood of Christ is for committed sin.
Planks,because no scripture says children are born "damned"!being born with a sin nature is not the same thing as being damned, from the moment they are born they are not damned because of Jesus' shed blood, theyre only damnedonce theyrejectHim.
That does not give you the right to use Scripture out of context. You have failed the 2 Timothy 2:15 test.
Scripture out of context? to the contrary I have sighted over 20 scriptures (and there are more)that support what I say&directly contradict your assertions for which you have not one scripture that says we are not born with sin nature, really
You made me smile I often fall short of Being diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 2Timothy 2:15
Amen TSAD! And thank Adam & Eve for that! Rm 5:12;19 But Thank you Jesus for the "shedding of Your blood!"
As I wrote in another comment I believe it's important to read Romans 5:15-19 which is to long to print out the entire verses here. I believe it covers this issue of death and sin vs. no sin. Blessing to all.
Grace- help me to understand what you see here that I do not. Either on here or in a message. I am not sure how you see this
celafore- Romans 5: 15-19 is talking through one man's offence (Adam) then all men have the judgement of physical death. But because of Jesus sinless life and then death, through Him all men have a chance of eternel life. The gift of "grace thr faith
Grace: Rm is just like ur name! Am I right in interpreting it to say "one man (ADAM) caused us to be born with and commit sin, yet another (JESUS) fulfilled law, died for remission of our sins and gave us "grace" which v 17 is much more? Learning
grace-- then we are certainly in agreement there
Since this is in the context of babies that cannot chose --- it begins to smell like universalism. I do not think that is the intent but please just look at it. If babies get into heaven without choosing Christ -- who else does? It is slippery slope.
eric- WOW awesome comment esp since I know where you have stood on this. Yes as I have have had much contact with over the yrs this is also a concern of mine.
norine- Adams sin is the ONLY sin in which judgement has been passed on to every human being. It's not the sin passed on to us, but the judgement. That's what it ment by " by one man' offence, JUDGEMENT came to all men"
Grace that is an awesome short interpretation -- that shall help guide me often.
celafoe- The answer I gave to norine is the same I'm giving to you to answer your question.
Amen Grace! Judgement yes yet "passed on" is the point! For Romans 5:12 says "...and so death "passed upon" all men..." Charlie: Did we not say that children don't have the intellect to be an unbeliever? Why then would u respond that way to Eric?
Graceinus Romans 5:15-19, exactly, he paid the price&so if anyone is incapable of accepting or rejecting Jesus,be they a newborn baby or a mentally impaired person with only the mental capacity of a baby they will go to heaven,Jesus paid forthem.
We are all born with the PENALTY and JUDGMENT of death should we commit sin, but we have the CHOICE NOT TO SIN from the day we are born, and Jesus Christ PROVED THIS by never sinning once and thus obtaining Resurrection.
PandN- I would like to know your understanding of Grace.
Amen TSAD! P&N: Not from the day we are born, (intellect not there), but from the day we are born again, become a "believer!" John 3:3
TSAD you give two exceptions, are there 10 or 20 more? If we exclude the child do we exclude also those filled with hate that are "incapable"? Only through Christ and not through exception? How about the drunkard/addict. Just cute babies?
Babies and children are a gift of God based on His grace and righteous judgement, even the aborted and sacrificed ones. Ezekiel 16:20-21
Norine, Babies do have intellect and are a gift from God, a reward from him, not damned from birth.
Eric,if you read my comments here under G's answer you'll see 19 scriptures with a link to them.Youcan't conflate people who are capable of rejecting Jesus with babies/children who are incapable of making that decision&onlyGod knows their hearts.
P&N: Babies don't have intellect & until they acquire it they are covered by the blood of Jesus! If they die, they do receive salvation according to Scripture! I never said damned-you did!
PandN this is exactly what I want to believe -- exactly, with love thrown into the mix;-) But I find no NT scripture to support your statement.
P&N & Eric: I Cor 14:20 - "...do not be children in your intellects..."
My statement was not based from the NT, but from from Ezekiel and Psalms.
PandN- I would like to know your understanding of grace as it's described in the book of Romans? The reason I ask is because grace has it's relationship to salvation.
There is not enough room here to explain. I will e-mail you with my answer as your question deserves detailed explanation. Let me know if you receive it.
PandN- I have sent an e-mail to you. Blessings.
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PandN. There is not enough space here to type Romans 4:15-19. But in short without God's grace babies, children and adults would not have chance to enter the Kingdom of God. These verses tell all of us why we do have a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong
Sin is spoken of in Scripture as something chosen, and not inherited. ((Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness - 1 John 3:4))
Saved and sent to the Ekklesia
PandN- Unless I'm missing something or misunderstanding, I believe all physical deaths are the result of the initial sin in the Garden of Eden. It's the reason we have physical death. Even Jesus who was without sin died. Note: Genesis 2:17
Jesus Christ was/is a man as taught in the Bible. If men are born sinners, then Jesus Christ was born a sinner, or you must deny that he was a man. Also, Jesus died because he yielded up his spirit.
P&N: The Holy Spirit kept Jesus under subjection (I Cor 9:27) as we must do today! Jn 4:24! Didn't the Spirit of God enter Mary's womb? Gal 4:4, but Jesus was God in the flesh! He was tempted (Matt 4:1-11) but didn't yield. He knew "no sin!"
What version of the bible says that Jesus was God in the flesh? I've 36 version on my computer and cannot find those words any where.
Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
Norine's false oneness Pentecostal doctrine supposes that the Father came in the flesh, which is actually a subtle denial that Jesus came in the flesh.
Rich: Jn 1:1-14 Heb 1:1-14 Col 1:9-17 Eph 3:8-9. P&N:If no orig sin we'd not need a Savior! We need the Holy Spirit to guide us! Yes, you can believe or not (choice), but if you"believe" you will "receive" the Holy Spirit! NEVER forget He is "I
We don’t need original sin for a Savior. We are born into a world full of sin and by nature will choose to sin, that is why we need a savior. One just like us to offer His blood for the forgiveness of our sins, not contrived sins in the womb.
noreen-- explain your understanding of He is 1
God is not angry with the nature that he has created humans, only the perversion of it. It is the voluntary wicked deeds, not the nature in which we are born. God's wrath is not on innocent babies in the good nature they are created in. Eccl. 7:29
PandN- I never implied that Jesus, as a man, was a born sinner. I think there may be disconnect with what I'm trying to say and I don't know how else to explain it with regards to death. I will research this further. Thanks for making your points.
I don't have enough room here.Rd Jn 1:1-10, Heb1:1-14,Col 1:9-17,Eph3:8-9,Jn8:58, Exd 3:14. U see, "carnality" kills! Jesus is in ALL places simultaneously! I don't know why believers can't "see" this if guided by the Holy Spirit? THE SPIRIT awes
Noreen--most of the things you espouse are teachings of the churches of men and those of us who live by scripture rejected them long ago. We are not looking for that here we are looking for scripture truth only no matter who has it the truth is all
Charlie: I've given you Scripture after Scripture (Truth), yet it seems that truth is not what you want to hear! I have not spoken, but the Word of God! For "It is Written!" It seems u want "confirmation" not "revelation!"
noreen- NO you have given the church of men understanding of scripture which I rejected 35 yrs ago. U also give me IS 1:18 thinking it says we should reason together but God is saying come reason with Him, no man. Truth comes via the HS not men
If HS is in one, then it applies! II TIm 3:16 says "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God....for doctrine,for reproof, for corr, for instr in righteousness!" If you "rejected" the Word of God, what can I say? I Cor 3:6, II Cor 3:18;4:3!
noreen- it depends on which holy spirit, there are many but only One Holy Spirit of God.
Wow! Never expected that of you Charlie! Be careful Charlie! You maybe an unbeliever of the Word, but I still pray for you! II John 1:10-11
noreen-- wow you really need to get rid of that religious (denominational) spirit that you wear so proudly. Please do not pray for me, I Never reject the word of God and always reject the word of 1 that tries to convince me he/she/it is God
Charlie: I've "only" given you Scripture! It's up to u! I pray ALL come to "Truth" u included! I see "religion" has conquered u as well and God has turned u over to a "reprobate mind" instead of Acts 17:11! II John 1:10-11! How did we get off topic
noreen-- you got off topic by trying to convert us to your church of men beliefs under the guise of wanting to learn. Not an unusual thing but wrong. Your comments are no longer welcome in this discussion.
Must have really got you thinking! Good! John 16:1-4 applies to you Charlie! II John 1:10-11 also! II Cor 4:3-6. Nice chatting! Search the Scriptures! Acts 17:11
noreen- rather than delete this one I will leave it for all to see why you had to be removed. You have reverted to what the churches of men always do when questioned. --attack because they have no scriptural ground to stand on.
I stand on the "Word of God" and will repeat "everything" before the judgment seat of Christ! I will tell you as I've told others, "You can delete my comments, but you can't delete the "Word of God!" It must have really "cut!" Hebrews 4:12.
doreen-- on 2nd thought maybe I will just let you continue to make a fool of yourself for all to see. I really have no more to say to you as your religious spirit is still in the way.
Christ didn't have a sin nature. Period. This is why Satan couldn't find a way "into" Christ when tempting Him in the desert. Christ was a man who was conceived by the Holy Spirit....no sin nature. He was capable of sinning, but didn't sin.
HxPROF: Amen! James 4:7-8!
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Eric Dierker says
Christ was silent on many matters that seem important today. If a question is not addressed it is normally because the answer is already known. Often the known answer doesn't fit so it becomes the time to start with the questions.
Well said - hi hi that is what I tried to say in the 300 words cropped off my answer -- We are blessed to be even looking for such important answers.
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"They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies". Now think about that it takes time to lean how to speak as well as sin. They will speak like those around them and sin like them as well, but they were not born doing it. They learn quickly.
You need to think about it.If that isn't the truth the Bible is in error.They will lie not because their parents lie,because it is their nature,they will lie before they even know what a lie is and the Bibleclearly says we are all born under sin
It is your assumptions that are in error not the bible. Their nature is to learn and follow. Christ wants that nature in His disciples. We are born in a sinful world. Christ was born just as we were and yet did not sin.
I used scripture for my Ans.Where is yours? Sin nature is passed down through the father. Rom. 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
tsad-- Rom 5 does not support your statement "sin mature is passed down through the father" do you have one that does?
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Until you understand the scripture you quote there is no need for me to play ping pong scripture with you. Think of the Christ child.
Jesus has2natures:Col. 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."His human nature from Mary,His divine nature through God/Holy Spirit.Therefore, He was sinless, had no original sin, and was both fully God and fully man.
Col 2:9-10 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
This is speaking of a man Jesus of 30-33 years old, now what of the infant in the womb?
I have explained why Jesus did not sin, scriptural his father was God not man where sin nature comes from. You claim sin is learned from a child's parents. If that were true Jesus would have learned to be a sinner or else Mary&Joseph were sinless
Col 2:9-10;Eph 4:5, Phil 2:10. Matth 28:18 "ALL AUTHORITY" then where is God asleep? NO, for HE IS "I AM!" If u could wrap your "carnal" mind around "truth" and look at Scripture "spiritually" (Jn 4:24) you would understand!
RK assumes the opposite of scripture which clearly states everywhere,we are born with a sin nature,If sin is just a learned behavior that would mean a baby is born sinless&could remain so.Show1scripture that says we are not born w/a sin nature
I have already looked at scripture through your “spiritual” eyes, the darkness was very deceptive. Your scriptures have nothing to do with the Christ child. You want to make the Child God, not His only begotten Son.
noreen--being a bully will get you nowhere. I assure you that you are not more spiritual with those of us you are trying change to your way of thinking. Most of the scriptures u use are not applicable to the subject
Celafoe has a point Noreen, we can all be spiritual but still disagree on debatable points without accusations of carnality, so relax, apologize maybe? and maybe we all can learn something from this Q&A if we respect the inerrancy of the Bible.
Charlie: The Word "bullies" not me! Heb4:12.I apol for getting "off topic" but not for the Word although not 1st to ment Col 2:9! TSAD right! All born sinful! Rich:"Thru MY spiritual eyes?"Who am I?Jn1:10says Jesus is God, not me! "IAM" is JESUS!
Again your scripture does not say what you imply.
Explain Rich. I'm trying to learn.
TSAD You and I are aware of good and evil, thanks to Adam and Eve. Our nature once able to choose is to please the flesh. Christ chose otherwise, His Father was well pleased. You know the rest of the story.
Rich: Too much meat? John 16:2
Some day you will want to learn, and when the student is ready the teacher will arrive. Right now you want to promote your beliefs, many which I've had in the past. The oil in your lamp is smoking, you need to trim it to see through the smoke.
Rich: The "Teacher" has arrived, the "HS!" And I'm doing "exactly" what He's telling me to do & hope someday you will come into the realization of TRUTH, if God's Will! II Cor 4:3 But you have to be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11!STOP LIMITING
noreen--get back on subject or I will have to shut you down you have gone too far astray now. dump the self righteous attitude
You say you want to learn and that is not true you want to teach us your false doctrines
Charlie I've tried to stay "on topic" but something/someone draws me away! I have given scripture and my ans that babes will be saved by the blood of Jesus if they die because they have not rejected Him. "...God is not the author.." I Cor 14:33
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