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Chris Mills says
A most thought provoking answer.
Thank you, Chris. Mostly, as an atheist, I cannot accept the illogical things in the bible - talking snakes, donkeys, Cain & Abel being the only children on Earth, yet going to another town to choose wives, cursed by "original sin", etc....
The illogical is praised by Christians and their God because the illogical requires faith. Also, the illogical requires the Spirit to twist the logical human mind at conversion so they can comprehend the illogical things of God. 1Corinthians 2:14
It would seem that in order to be healthy one needs to be able to accept both the logical and the faith based. One without the other seems to lead one too far in either direction.
Christians are told many lies in order to accept the various beliefs of their many denomenations as logical - ie. the Gospels NOT being written by the actual Apostles, but to instill FEAR. It spread like fire bc the Roman Emperor proliferated it.
Also misfit no one forced you to believe what you feel is
Right .but you force your right on others to say they are lies. Prove the point of the lie first before you judge it a lie.
Again what is witten in the bible is written on found artifacts .
Atheists will do as some here have done to disprove God.
"as an atheist, I cannot accept the illogical things in the bible"
But if they took the stories as symbolic instead of literal their view would have to change
Outwest, I'd like for you to briefly give a symbolic interpretation to the conquest of Canaan and the slaughter of the population there. I'm serious here, not arguing. I'd like to hear the symbolic interpretation.
We all have personal battles to deal with Chris. But how narrow it is to take a passage written by humans literally in an effort to say a Creator does not exist. How serious is that person in actually trying to find out if God exists?
Outwest, good points. I want to respond later. I'm at work now. My earlier point refers only to the god of Israel at that time and place. Another god might be different, if one exists.
OW - Just for clarification, the bible really isn't the reason I am an atheist, although it is the reason I began to question 'gods' existence. No, the fact that 'gods' are nowhere to be found is what makes me an atheist. Where are these gods?
For sure i am not here debating God's existance but rather how are atheists any different than religious people who use the bible literally to make their decision
Also misfit in our posts on the subject who really have shown violence toward anyone because of their beliefs
So far not christians here. But a so called guest speaker came on and threaten to kill believers to conquer them.
Not the first time.
First, I've never claimed to be an atheist. But, I do argue against the Bible quite often. Many of my arguments are crafted to oppose a literal interpretation of certain parts of the Bible. That is why it looks like I interpret it literally.
Misfit you posted links I will post reply to your links.
Because you believe this proves your poin I will give you a short list .I am aware of the subjects and name persons in your list.So if you research
and got this ,and I am familiar .I research
No, I said that my HUB proved my points - you pushed for links. You spent 12 minutes on my very longwinded and semi-complex explanations. Go ahead and make your 'list' - heck, write another hub. I can't wait to read it.
I'm reading here about research. When I was a Christian, 50 years of my life, I claimed to have researched evolution/creation. Now I can admit I did no honest research. I looked for anything that would support what I had already chosen to believe.
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I notice no one argues with you, Titen! Could it be that you are correct and there is no argument they can present?
Let's briefly take the story of Noah. some might take it literal and believe if they find this ark that God exists. Others might see it as a story of faith because God told Noah to build an ark in the desert. Noah did so it is an example of faith.
As mythology meant to teach a lesson or explain some aspect of nature (the rainbow) the story isn't so offensive. The moment people want to take it literally they are excusing genocide, animal cruelty, etc. Everyone sees it differently.
Yes, the storymof Noah is about GENOCIDE. God worshippers conveniently overlook that one.
What a fool you are Austinstar! Must we really justify our God? God is God, he can do what He likes. If you chose not to believe in Him that's your problem. Doesn't change the fact that He exists.
Another personal attack! I have reported you both. If you want to attack, you might want to move to a more private place, send me an email. P.S. God's existance has not become a proven fact.
Strange this concept of reporting someone for attacking you. It just seems a little tattle tale to me. Like whining. Mocking someone's belief is fair game.?
I am not mocking anybody's belief. I am answering the question that was asked. My personal opinions are not meant to make fun of you, they are meant to point out inconsistencies in your "facts".
Not mocking anybody's beliefs? That is the biggest lie I have heard from you yet. You consistently attack people's religions and their beliefs and seem to believe that we are all brainwashed and have a low IQ.
It sure seems that way to me. Not usually intellectually stimulating stuff just attacks on what people believe. Kind of like a generic calling believers liars.
Exactly. If Austinstar wants to live in her own dark world, where there is no point to anything, she can go ahead. But I rejoice in the love of God and will always believe in him no matter what she says.
Pay attention, guys, i am NOT the one who keeps asking these types of questions. If you are offend by my words to the point of calling me names, then STOP READING MY WORDS!
Stop writing them.
God is God so he can do what he wants, including genocide, slavery, all of it. Fair enough, but don't pretend he's benevolent while laying the most evil deeds imaginable at his feet. Just admit you serve an evil God.
Tit so you exist is that evil ? People say and believe what they please . does not mean it true . No you should admit
The truth of your negative statements
I've never drowned an entire planet full of people, condoned slavery or built an eternal pit of hellfire in which to needlessly punish people. Some say God has done all of that and then some. Some versions of God are indeed evil.
Titen you say or quote other peoples beliefs most of what you heard is not accurate. So you base judgement on false details. Next if God was so bad then the way you talk and speak is bad .why are you spared the one who judges him wrong.?
Some people do believe in the God I just described, the one who commits genocide and condones slavery. I would not argue against it if no one believed in it, but millions do. Why am I spared? Because human-obsessed gods don't really exist.
Titen if they do not exist then how can you judge what is not real toExample I never had a rolls royce
Can I judge it by anothers opinion No! So I will tell you that the things heard you judge by are wrong details
Which makes your conclusion wrong
I'm just putting my opinions out there, I never asked others to judge based on the way I judge things. If they don't agree with me that genocide and slavery are evil acts oh well. If they believe in a God who would never do such things good on them.
Titen again genocide and slavery is also your opinion and you judge this as the meaning . If you really possessed accurate infomation which I have read your comments and realize you do not have accurate knowlege and judge wrong.
If you don't believe in god that's your problem. If there's no God, then why are we here? What's the point of living? In your mind, there is none, because we're all going to die and then there's just darkness, right?
"if they do not exist then how can you judge what is not real" - the judgment takes places WHILE we still 'believe'. This happens to many many MANY Christians who are not content with what becomes obvious to be a manwritten book enslaving the masses.
Misfit what is your point of saying a man written book to enslave the masses , you speak untruth as well in that statement. Slavery is not being a slave if you chose or volunteer your support. People chose their religion.not slavery
Right, and this 'religion' was 1) forced on folks in previous religions to unite them; and 2) written & instructed in such a way that it would be chosen by others. ONE savior dies instead of you. What a great way to condense the diverse populatio
I hope we can all agree, "Violence by man against man is in contradiction with any religion worthy of that name," Pope Francis 1-18-16 Read Bible with this in mind.
See books by Raymond A. Moody, Jr. M.D. on Near Death Experiences "being of light."
Life's meaning and value emerge from its brevity and scarcity. How do things like love and loss and struggle have any meaning if life is eternal? How do my actions have value if I will carry out an infinity of them?
@ Fardmir Shade-Song why would that be darkness when you die and there is no God ? How did you experience things before you were conceived ? Would you call that darkness? Leaping from what you don't know and naming it as something bad..
Interesting concept and question Titen. I ask myself that when doing mundane tasks over and over again. I suppose we have to find some gratification in the moment and not just the doing of the thing. Maybe we get better at that.
They have meaning because we are judged according to our actions. If there's no afterlife, just darkness, why does anything matter? Why don't we just do whatever we want? We could steal, murder etc. and it wouldn't matter, right?
Just because some of the Christian belief structure is deceptive to so many people; does NOT mean that there 'is no god' or an afterlife. We are not judged on our actions. Here is a good NDE perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-PLmMwl2o
@ Fardmir being in time seems to matter more for me than you then. For you things only seem to matter for what could possibly happen later and not for what they are ? Common flowers smell better when I see her smile!Do you need an afterlife for that?
Misifit if you were me in my mind , in my body, in my space and time you could say the truth in what you really know but your comments are totally based off of what you think your mental data is very short here on anyone and their background .
My 'mental data is very short' - sorry, no - it used to be as your's is, now. God cannot be contained within a series of man-manipulated and strategically-used ancient texts designed to enslave people. That should make you angry - why doesn't it?
Misfit to answer your question why can we not eat the same food , wear the same clothes, like the same music, love the same Art we are all individuals.We prove that in our choice of colors and smells.We also can chose who we want to worship.No anger.
I totally agree we can chose who we want to worship. I have no anger except when religious peeps insist laws need to be made around the bible which has been proven many times over to be nothing but manipulated - along with all other religous texts.
Fardmir Shade-Song, Austinstar is no fool first of all. Second, God is not above his own law. Biblical laws/morals are an expression of his character. That is the Bible's position. He cannot commit mass murder and be consistent with his own character
When I started high school, one of the teachers told us to take Phillipians 4: 13 - I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me - as our motto. I just could not take this motto literally, so I chose Phillipians 4:11 & 3: 3 & 2: 14 i
And titen I can say with great comviction that just as you write here and communicate on hp with out seeing you physically that you exist proof as you communicate unseen God almight writes to us through the pages of the bible unseen he exist as you.
Well you could drive to my house and prove that I exist KT, a room of scientists could come to a consensus on who I am. Yet a room of theologians and believers have no consensus on God(s) after tens of thousands of years of human superstition.
The problem with understaning these people pick and chose what they want to believe is literal
And come to their own conclusions which you have titen
Example a doctor writes prescription medicine in latin but
Because certain people can not read i
You do the exact same thing, K&T. People like you keep insisting that those of us who do not believe haven't done our homework. Most of us have - and most 'believers' like you have not. You can't just keep saying that we are wrong over and over a
Isn't that because spirituality and faith is a wholly personal deal. As much as "religion" and non-believers try to lump us together, in the end it is completely subjective and personal.
You can't see anything harmful in believing this man-created religion based on fear that was meant to tame & unite people for the Roman Empire to easier rule them? Lie upon lie... WHY are you all okay with it? Your reasons for 'believing' are sca
Misfit I will share my personal thought and experience
People live what they like and what works for them.
The bible have never caused me harm .or my family.
Really it has made us more aware of appreciating life.
The bible is circulated worldwide
No harm for you and your's? Since this religion was created and even today - not every family can say that. The bible is circulated worldwide bc the Roman Emperor who commissioned this religion and this 'holy book' made sure the lies were spread.
Misfit I hate lies. So could you be more formal and list them instead of saying they exist write these lies out. Be pacific. I will listen to your explanation. But you must not put belief as a word.
We have had this discussion - there is NOT ENOUGH ROOM within 250 characters. I keep telling you to do research - WHY should I do it for you? Would you believe me, easier? I've told you that I've written a long spotlight hub. Start there if you want.
Misfit write a hub or send me a letter from. Hp adress.
Either you do not have the answers to these lies or you just can not back up your words.just a cop out. Until I see your proof in your claims I will decline reading your posts.
Every1 has their own version of God. If God was a real thing that could be studied, proved, we would have some basic idea of what we were discussing. Yet I haven't come across any version of God that is coherent let alone 1 4 which there is evidence.
Full explanation: http://hub.me/akagx http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm http://www.nazarethmyth.info/Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/crux.ht... https://beyondallreligion.net/2012/01/21/how-chris...
Titen I can agree with you that you have not yet . it does not mean you will never .when I was 10, I didn't , when I was 16,I didn't when 18 I was learning but not sure. I am almost 60 very sure with my life.So it does not mean he will not touch you
K&T, you are so condescending & uniformed. Basically, you're implying that 'someday he may be as wise as you'. Titen's profile contains researched hubs on this subject. I'd say both he and I are 'informed'. Time to counter-debunk if you can.
Misfit I am reading your links I am not so far being informed of something I did not know but am very surprised of you believing in men of these .
You pick these to believe and not the ones others believe make you right
I will write you a list .
I don't need a list - I didn't say I believed in everything said in them100% and neither should you. There is not room for me to write a commentary on each one. That is why I wrote a hub. They are places to start doing your own RESEARCH.
Arguments from authority or age don't have reasonable value. Also why would something be 'right', because the other would make you feel "sad"? People in general really don't care what could be right, just what makes them feel right? Understandable...
Titen 3:11 he has put eternity in their hearts. Here is why we plan for tomorrow for weeks months , years
Eternity is in our hearts and there seems to never be enough time in a day to do all we need and want.
So when paradise comes we will welcome
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Sam Shepards says
A most interesting approach. Extremists and fanatics do seem to be the most vocal. There is that interesting group of Christians that seem to believe learning spirituality outside the Bible is taboo. It is sad they miss so much wonderment.
Same goes for being militant atheist... Try reading descartes, leibniz, stoics or even spinoza (abstract god, more pantheist, but still some notion), many more when you can't stand the idea that someone believed such a thing. Takes out the joy...
So misfit who is the one passing judgement on things they know nothing about. You can say many things here on HP but you are telling people to believe your words and we do not know you. Many have known the bible longer then you.
This is confusing you are responding in different comment sections to the same person (misfit) in another comment section? You are of course free to do so :)
Sorry Sam it can be confusing . but my device on my phone does not have a comment box on evey reply or comment . that is why I name the person up front to direct my comment. When I need to answer their comment box under that person its missing
I'm not sure what this is in response to, but as far as me 'passing judgement on things they know nothing about' is untrue. Continue your search - you'll find what many others of us have. All that info is at your fingertips and more than you want.
Misfit I am satified with my research it is not your answers because we are different in our choices and references and materials again you can know so little about a person on HP . I can not know you behind a computer neither can anybody . truth
What does not knowing you have to do with anything? Sure, you can 'choose' to do research only far enough and selectively enough to prove your 'beliefs' satisfactorily. But, 1+1 does not equal 3 just because you insist that it does.
Misfit found artifacts that prove the bible is authentic.
Example. People places things exist in none religious books. Names of heavenly bodies mention. Names of animals , even diseases that still exist today. You can not deny these as facts. You do
You can't prove the supernatural using mundane details like places or people that existed. You can't use Troy and the Trojan war to prove that Zeus and Apollo are real anymore than you can say God is real because Jericho or Jerusalem both exist.
Titen tell me why it is not your proof.we are all different I used that example to say there is proof for people when you do not see it proof for some one else. Example love
Can up say love does not exist because it is absent in your life. No !
It was written thousands of years ago in a time far closer to when those artifacts were in use. They USED truths to deceive people. I am not being obtuse when I say do more research - I'm begging you to do it. No one should 'just believe' anyone else
Really titen I will have to disagree with no man or woman that welcomes each day is trying to die. Even in hospice situation you hold on .
They are good who love life
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The bible IS their claim! Exactly, and what a ridiculous claim it is. DNA proves the Adam/Eve story false. So there is no need for a "savior", because there is no original sin to "save" us from!
But this is precisely my point. DNA and Adam & Eve. Just because the story of Adam & Eve is proven wrong through science how does that mean there is no God. How does the bible actually disprove the existence of a Creator God
It doesn't disprove god, it just disproves the whole point of having a god in the first place!
@OutWest is the Bible the word of God? Is the Bible used as a manual for life as if written by an infallible hand, because inspired by God? And God would not let mistakes slip in his word? Should it be followed and is it the only one...?
@ Sam Shepards. The "word of God" is an opinion. Mankind can surely ruin God's word easy enough. Lol
Misfit so what is wrong is when people say you can not make a choice right unless it is theirs .Just because some one does not have your taste or view they should not be judged by human peers. Because Gods laws are pure and right. He is above all .
@OutWest I agree, but those claims have been made more than once in the religious sections here that is why I asked your position on that.
Titen because certain people do not know how to decipher the language they are frustrated even calling the doctor names because of their lack of education.
The bible language is similar many will never understand .It has to be granted to decipher
COULD YOU PLEASE STOP POSTING UNDER THE WRONG ANSWER? THIS HAMPERS THE FLOW OF IDEAS, AND CAN COMPLETELY DERAIL A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION. Thanks
Sorry for the irritation .but I will try to post according to the avaible reply box .but realize I am using a cell phone which limits space and boxes.
NO SUCH THING AS A TRUE ATHEIST, WHO FEELS IT KNOWS IT
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Catherine Mostly says
Why do you participate in these questions?
What part of my response do you have a problem with? The part where I answered this question with brutal honesty? As you know, I get tired of the repetitve nature of these recipricol 'questions'.
Misfit you are the main person saying these words to people who have the right to their personal choice. Some even being rude. When one explaines themselfs and it is not your belief something is wrong with them.
Eric is right it is personal
I would agree that it is personal - I've experienced it from a Christian perspective. And when multiple ex-C's tell you that there is something seriously wrong with the bible and are warning you about it, that is why we are ignored - bc its personal.
"the existence of God has nothing to do with the bible anyway". How is this not true? God either exists or does not exist regardless of any religious text.
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This really illustrates the Bible as an historical reference. Perhaps not relevant today except as to learn from history. But it seems odd to call it irrelevant when it clearly is relevant to so many. That fact speaks for itself.
What fact? The only relevance the bible has is that it was the first book printed by movable type and the first book to be cheap enough to be owned by the commoners after the Kings translated it to enslave the weak minded sheeple.
Relevant: closely connected or appropriate to the matter at hand. Billions obviously believe the Bible is relevant to daily life. That is a fact.
Billions belong to the "bible club", but billions also belong to the "quran club". Your assertion that the bible is "relevant" is NOT relevant to this question about atheists taking the bible literally. READ the question again!
Mine was a response to your answer. Stop trying to control the show - you are only an actress. How the book is relevant is relevant to how the book is considered.
It is not I that is trying to "control" this question/answer/comments. Sorry about your delusionary state of being. Get well soon.
Nice deflection -- but people read your words. You should incorporate some substance and merit.
But it's heritage is everywhere in the West and Western ideas and some parts of the Philosophical tradition. I wouldn't argue that you need to follow all, but some grounding is useful to understand where we live (mentally).
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All that is necessary to become an atheist is to read the bible. The god of the Old and New Testaments is not a god I could ever put faith in.
no problem you can make whatever choice you are comfortable with. but then you will have to live with that choice good luck
And again why are some atheists taking the bible so literal as to taint the existence of God?
I just said why. And how do you get that atheists are tainting the existence of God if they take it literally, they aren't the ones that wrote the book lol. Literally or metaphorically, some parts are simply evil.
Celafoe, Pascal's Wager = lame
To say, "I also don't see much of a difference between a literal genocidal maniac and a symbolic genocidal maniac." is taking it literal, either way. Symbolic means it represents something personal to you. Like something changed inside you for you
I highly doubt you'll find many stories about global genocide that are purely metaphorical.
Why does it sound like you're annoyed that people can read? There simply isn't any way to make genocide ever seem "good", literally, metaphorically, etc...
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Stella Kaye says
I like the story in the Bible about the Tower of Babel --- the builders ended up not understanding each other --- due to everyone having his/her own -----. So yes, the Bible can certainly remind us about our present day era.
Mr. Happy says
This is so true and I've said it before - nontheists only argue back 'literally' when they are confronted by literal arguments. Since you argue that way - it stands to reason that is all you will listen to; and even then, NOT. C's are know-it-alls.
Misfit do you know every Atheist to say most . that is not possible . if you disagree with the bible that is your opinion and right but not everybody agree with you because you read a different meaning others read their own which makes sense to them
As an equal opportunity atheist, I would never want to deprive you or anyone else, no matter what faith, of your happiness derived in your derision. Hypocrisy, however, is the one trait that all organized religions share.
Mybilly the problem with your statement is that you have not experienced all organized religion. It is impossible
So you can not fairly say they all are hypocritical. You can say it but who could say you lived them all to believe this is true No one
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Rachael Lefler says
It is Evangelical Christians who are attempting to force the Bible and science together, not the those who don't believe the Bible. Christians have come up with the Creation Research Society, the Creation Museum, Bible and Science and on and on.
Rachael said, "The OT stories that seem bad now are all about how God will protect and serve His chosen people (Jews)" But aren't ALL people supposed to be created by God? Why does he choose one race over another?
Also understand I do not mean to cause and disagreement. But should a nurse not speak up just because the Doctor should know a procedure and he errors in operation. No she supports her doctor and team to come off with good results saving a life.
@Austinstar. I think you are the person this whole question is referring to. Your comment shows how literal you take the bible...sighting quotes even, to prove God does not exist or that you cannot believe in this God of the OT
@Rachael Lefler: Excellent. Exactly my point. It has a deeper meaning and not a literal one. If that is what I see you saying
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The arrogance portrayed in this representation of Christianity is enough to make anyone look for a different way, anything but to become like "That." Even the term Gospel/Good News has been corrupted to be a laundry list of hateful comments.
I keep saying this over and over again and I will keep saying it... Human Beings are inherently GOOD. Christians have been told this 'evil' lie about souls in order to put them into psychological bondage - and it still works. very. very. well.
Every religion thinks it has things figured out better than all of the others, some path to enlightenment, some method of "salvation". They convince you you are diseased or foolish and then conveniently sell you their "cure" and their "wisdom".
Elohim hates sin and disobedience. The people that were born with the heredity of GOODNESS in our history, got their lands stolen, were murdered, and were chained with locks to be slaves. God's wisdom is better than man's wisdom any day.
For thousands of years people have pretended to know what the gods want and what and WHO the gods hate. People have justified hatred and slavery by claiming the be the chosen of the gods... in your case a sense of superiority has arisen.
Yeah, and PRIDE cometh before a fall. It is amazing the superiority complexes that some people have developed over their religions. Perhaps this has something to do with the GREAT DIVIDE that they are told is SUPPOSED to exist between people!!
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Sulabha Dhavalikar says
Yes Sulab this is true many times said and done. to be heard is more important to some then being correct.
Many times the truth is said and ignored not even admission of truth in any way. Some people are a one way street they only see their path
Rob L says
Rob ,So far you are very nice in your expression thank you.
But I can not agree that many even a crowd of witnesses have not shared some solid truth or evidence, it was not true of that fact .because there are Atheist who are now believers.
People can be converted to anything in times of extreme stress. It's a kind of defensive reaction, or mental illness if you like. A need to belong. It doesn't make it any more viable.
Yes, there are atheists who are now believers - and believers who are now atheists or buddists or even MUSLIM *gasp* (yes, christians convert to Islam - look it up!) Atheists attempt to disprove RELIGIONS, not 'gods' - because they don't exist.
Maybe more accurately is that some atheists attempt to show how they do not believe in God by using bible phrases literally. "The God of Moses was a cruel God" etc
Actually often that has nothing to do with proving or disproving God. Just that some religious absolutist ideas and grounds some religious fanatics use are just plain awful and backwards. Using afterlife as a base for morality is also problematic.
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Granville Bennet says
Yes, I almost posted the parallel question, "Why do Christians take the bible so literally?" But I have sworn off asking religious questions here. The arguments are boring, repetitive, and un-intelligent.
it's a statement. the question is "Why do atheists take the bible so literal?"
@OutWest Problem with your last statement is you denounce the religious belief of a certain group atheists are actually arguing with. :)
Because the word in that book is often used in moral battles...
To finish they see the sun that sits in the right place to warm us. They see the moon and stars that light our planet , if the sun was to far we would freeze.The moon we would wobble through space.
We have seasons that help food to grow. they deny.
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Very interesting and the truth is this has been the very case of mockery.
But knowing this will not stop what couldnt be stopped in centuries. The reason why is it is not by human power
That the message we all are given can be controled.wiped out
If nothing else Oz, i always find it interesting how you create your own stereotypes of atheists, to then complain about other people using stereotypes when they dont, and then going right back to using your own stereotype.
Good on ya.
I'm on record on hp defending actual real atheists and have done so here if you read my answer. It's also officially in my hub about atheism. Ergo I'm not using a stereotype as I promote real atheists on hp.
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Angele Parris says
Parris there is no comparisome to humans .we are not on his level in thinking. We are not in the position to judge God , because he created life and he can remove life it is his own creation. Another thought if he gives life he can return it
The problem is that Christians tend to explain the seemingly 'evil' parts of love that don't make sense away. Everything they don't understand gets brushed off in this way instead of researched that shows how this book was pieced together by men.
Eric how do you feel about anyone talking about your parent or gaudian with lies and disrespect. I would hope you would feel as I do about his thoughts and words.
But on the other hand we did not create the bibles thoughtsThey fight against him
Most atheists don't have a problem with 'your parents'. The problem is with a book that you all INSIST is the unblemished word of god when it has been PROVEN to be a compilation of the Roman Empires various religions to unite them under an easy ONE.
Misfit man volunteered to write and catalog the bible which is different secretaries who never really crossed each others timeline. But they all have the same common
Pupose and message not theirs. Again people need to learn more accurate the truth.
"people need to learn more accurate the truth" - I agree. Read beyond that book, where it came from and most importantly - why. When you learn the history; then you will know why people fall away from this religion, daily. Knowledge is power.
Misfit do you even know what religion most people here speak in. No .so you can not say what experience they have had already. Mine just did not start on HP So you assume wrong of what people already know
Knowledge is power, only valuble when right
"Knowledge is power, only valuble when right" - and yet, blindly believe without researching beyond beliefs. It doesn't matter what religion you are - all religions are man made. No 'true' holy man EVER wrote down anything for very good reasons.
Misfit I could say the same for you , what you write on HP page Why should any believe what you say. I can not see you. You could be the very opposite of what you say. So do not judge people for what they believe and choice.
Again as I have mentioned why take the bible stories so literal. " Therefore, it is hard to comprehend that a kind God, could kill a whole city with fire.". This is part of a story that has much deeper meaning than what is on the surface.
Outwest if you write a hub with your name as the AuthourThe same as a book no matter who publishes your words the thoughts are yours. So if your book gets popular who gets the credit and royalties you do The bible Author claimbs his book 2Tim3:16
God did not come down here and write the bible personally, man did. And there are other religious texts referring to the same God. Torah and Qu'ran. It's just in North America the main religion comes from the bible
Outwest you are saying that God can not get humans to write his thoughts down. Men use secretaries all the time.
These books are written during different time lines people who did not even personally know each other but they speak in agreement .
If you ever read The Bible by Karen Armstrong she sheds light on these consistencies because the scribes who wrote the rest of the bible always had the previous texts as reference.
Outwest there are many bible anylizers.no matter what people believe and they can not remove the seal of truth Many have tried and it says the same. Found relics with writing validates whats in the bible to be true .some translations have altered
You can't argue with K&T - he has already demonstrated that he knows absolutely everything and has no need to address the holes in this issue. 2 Tim. is everything to these people. It is why that verse was written, no doubt - look nowhere but her
Misfit you do not have to keep posting to me. I will never change my faith especially because of you and your supporters . they say action speaks louder you lost more then you gain. I will no longer reply to you and your supporters.
I don't have any 'supporters'; and I am not going to say nothing while you repeat your harmful belief-lies to people: like, we could not POSSIBLY have morals without the bible to tell us - especially THAT book. Insulting to the Nth degree.
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John Welford says
@John Welford. I agree with your first statement because the fanatics from both sides are illogical
Officially, atheists claim a 'lack of belief' in any god - not necessarily a non-existent one. I think you have to state anti-theism for that, not sure. Great answer. If there was more faith and less religion *I* would personally feel MUCH better. :)
No, atheists claim that there is no proof of a god or gods. We are quite willing to accept proof, should it ever be presented. We don't "lack belief", we lack "proof".
It is on their website. Apparently, they are very picky about the wording, LoL!: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. https://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-at...
Chris says some enlightment.he says if a former christain attacks the bible he is not atheist he is an anti christian
Many times people believe in God but they reject his words his counsel's his laws. So people say they are Atheist
That isn't true, K&T. MANY former Christians turn to religions such as Islam (is a biggie, believe it or not), Theosophy, Buddhism, or plain 'ol Agnosticism - though probably most become simple Atheists. Once Jesus is debunked he becomes irrelev
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Michael McNabb says
Micheal you can make a point no one can understand you if you call people foolish
You lose credibility by attacking people verbally. If people believe something then it is not foolish to them .like what you believe you do not think it is foolish.
John James says
Ozinto.the same one responsible for things we can not touch like the sun.can we control it. The stars and moon are faithful no man can control these either. So when something of the Heavenly Father they can not touch it but mock it.
He ends things
Mithun Nair says
Mithun while I will agree with some things you say, there are other things that do not fit.
The bible says there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrightous. If some one went to heaven why are they resurrected from the grave.
If a person went to this believed hell then why
Resurrection takes place to come back ?Acts 24:15.
No one has burned if they are unrighteous and is resurrected.
This is a false doctrin King James used in his translations of the 1600's
Even two Christians who have the Spirit of God can't agree on the meaning of the Bible. I thought the Spirit gave each Christian understanding beyond what unbelievers have. How can the two of you not agree on everything if you have the same Spirit?
There was a time I also believed the same thing. But if you carefully examine what is written and not just from one form of translations you can learn the truth. This includes Hebrew and Greek meanings as well.A fellow huber name monkyshine is good.
It sounds to me as though you are the one who decides who is right and good, not God. You declare a translation or version acceptable or not. You declare an interpretation right or wrong. If anyone disagrees with you they are disagreeing with God.
Chris what is the scripture saying if a nurse points out an error to the doctor is it about a life .or is it about sparing the ego of the doctor The right thing would be to check it out
Not tell the nurse are you the doctor that judges me!
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Justin Earick says
Lila K says
Then the book you read is not the same book
The one I read does not have that meaning.but simple who created it thoughts would only grant you to understand it
Like a key to a locked chest
You can always guess it contents not everyone has the key.
How do you know these "not true atheists" don't use the vedas against hindus or the quran agains muslims? I can't imagine how you came upon that knowledge. Why would atheists not be familiar with the Bible? Many atheists are former Christians.
It is always an interesting thing when people try to generalize and stereotype people with regard to beliefs. I find that 99% of folks like to avoid the subject of any spirituality. So how do we know sweeping generalities?
@ Chris- exactly my point. If a former 'christian' is attacking the bible, they are not atheists. They are anti-Christian. @ Eric 99% of the people you attract in YOUR life avoid spirituality. As you do.
Wow Joshua you not only make generalizations about groups of people you jump to unfounded conclusions about individuals. It is a first for me to be called someone who avoids spirituality. I will tell my older brother, maybe he will talk to me again.
@ Eric I am responding to the words as written. I do not know you personally. When you speak of me to your older brother or anyone else for that matter, I insist that you use the most negative language possible.
Joshua, very slick. You sidestepped my point and made a completely unimportant and irrelevant point of your own, i.e. your emphasis on anti-christian vs atheist.
Did I? Was that being slick? You said many atheists are former Christians. I disagree. Had a person not been introduced to Christianity in a negative light, they would have no reason to attack the religion. An atheist believes there IS no God.
Joshua how exactly do you magically rationalize that because an atheist was a former Christian that means they were introduced to it in a negative way?
And no not all atheists are of the assumption there is no God. Enlighten yourself b4 generalizing
Do a little research - many Atheists were former Christians, including Pastors & Priests, etc. They have support organizations for these people as they are coming out of their beliefs because it can be kind of tramatic. Its true. I am a former C,
@ link look up the definition of atheist. Just look at the word a-theist. With out God. Are you saying the God of the bible is the one true God?
Ironic you should tell me to look it up...
Here ya go, pay attention to the second part as well since you even mentioned it yourself and tell me how you comprehend it:
"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings"
Thank you for enlightening me, link. Now... Does anyone and everyone who denies their existence take the bible literally?
Deflected twice, nice Joshua...
I imagine it depends on the situation and what context is being used, though in the case of the Bible I don't think literal or metaphorical makes much of a difference.
Thank you link. I am good at what I was created to do. Now how much longer must I endure this existence? I would prefer to go to sleep and never wake up.
Hey Jashua, I certainly hope that your comment was metaphorical. You do know that it looks like a cry out for help. It looks like a suggestion of suicide. Please take stock and look for the good. You will find it.
And Chris you are 4 times a trillion pennies in value research done .
That means you are a rare treasure
Never let anyone cause you to think less this is what the spiritual war is about every human is valueable
even sstatics says born a conquerer
The problem with Christians is they know it all cuz of that 'inspired' book they take so literally. God is supposed to 'move his spirit' upon people to 'inspire' them to be saved. It is amazing how his 'words' are so powerful yet his spirit is weak.
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Judy Specht says
Eric dont you think that our parents as being older and wiser have the right to be respected. Our heavenly Father is the oldest as far a senoir known as the ancient of days
We should give him priority of respected. My answer.
Doubts are the province of those with "faith". Atheists do not have these doubts and no amount of trying to make it seem as if they do have doubts will make it true. Speak for yourself. I am not afraid of gods, hell, or your judgements.
You see the world has accepted many misquoted and meanings .errors that have just been passed down with no correction.
As I mention I too was a believer in what was thought not what was the real words and truth. People want to know the truth.
I find there is a lot of misconceptions about belief. Belief does not necessarily mean in the biblical sense. It seems it is the go to statement for atheists. I don't know why it is assumed that a person who believes in God believes in judgement
god knows what is in the hearts of men. there have always been doubts in men as demonstrated throughout the bible. anyone who says there is not a question in their hearts is really not facing reality. reinforcement of faith is when an answer comes
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Steven Holt says
Titen Eccles 3;11 is the scripture that says he has put eternity in their heat.
Sorry letters and words drop from my mobile device. But there will always plenty to do not bord.
You spoke of solving human problems. With a few exceptions, Christians Talk. People of science Do. I have been on both sides of this and it is an observation that Christians should actually attend to. How much of what you are about is talk?
This is a little harsh Chris: "Christians Talk. People of science Do". My great Doc is a Christian man of science, so was my MD father. These distinctions are too much. I love to teach my son about science and about God.
Eric, in specific circumstances like yours, yes, I have seen Christians who could accept science which accomplishes things in this world. In general, though, Christians gather to talk, e.g. Bible studies, prayer groups, sermons, retreats etc.
Outwest with out it as a guide more injustice would prevail. People would take liberties against you without a mental concious of right and wrong
No child is born with this it has to be taught.
I always say that science and religion have one thing in common, they both take faith. You need to believe your science is correct. Science has made many mistakes. Tort attorneys love this and make a lot of money every year from it.
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And so you have been taught to repeat. It makes you "special" to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? Nobody else knows how to read and comprehend the books of your bible. Enjoy your faith.
austinstar why are you here this is not a place for fools like you.
Having experienced the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" before becoming an atheist I can say that the Bible doesn't become any easier to understand. Reading the Bible myself and praying for God's guidance still lead me away from Christianity.
charlie - This is not the place for your question either. And I do not appreciate the personal attack. If you don't want "fools" to comment, don't post your question in a public forum.
Those who read and write about politics and/or religion without interjecting personal attacks to uphold their "logic" have learned some measure of human TOLERANCE! I applaud you!!
Pv 29:11 A fool utters all his mind... I'm not a huge fan of AS, but that was a very uncool thing to say; and what do YOU know about being baptized in the HS? Not much, obviously. My experience sounds similar to Titen-Sxull. You are still very blind.
Parris if we could make a moon, a star, a sun. a seed to grow food. and return the force back when a person dies
But we are infants needing what ever he provides to live.
If we show disrespect for those by judging him
We hurt ourselfs .
1 Corinthians 2:14 says that without God's Spirit, there is no understanding of God. But evangelism is based on human reason. The Gospel is explained. The unsaved, who do not have the Spirit, UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE....before they receive the Spirit.
Rob rejecting something does not mean it was not proof.
Like you say you are hungry and some one gives you bread you say no I want steak.
But you just reject food that could keep you from hunger.
These will never be satified.
What about someone who WAS 'baptized in the HS' who DID believe until AFTER that experience; and then was led NOT to believe? At the risk of being deleted, read my spotlight hub on the subject. No one can understand until it happens to them.
Rob I disagree that it has to be stress for a change of belief. Can you come to be realistic and say that evidence was provided and they were satified then it was illness.
No. You show you will not accept no other answer when
Some One has found it
14 The fool has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
53 The fool has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
I have never said there is no God. Christianity lies in order to put minds into a psychological prison filled with fear, shame and lots of other crap to keep them tame and enslaved to 'The Empire'. Prove me wrong - you can't. Insisting isn't proof.
Actually it's not clear. By saying that you were baptized by some holy spirit and became aware of god, you are admitting there was a time when you had no faith but in order to decide to get baptized required faith so which is it?
charlie, you say it is impossible for one without faith and without the Holy Spirit to understand it. Using that "logic," it would be impossible for anyone to become a Christian. They would never be able to understand God's plan of salvation.
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east-west pro says
Outwest example the bible is a treasure. How so if we did not have it nobody would know the good and bad of anything. Even the law uses it in court and the justice system.
It is the original book of principles our Ancestors based their morals from.
It is through Christian lies that you believe 'nobody would know the good and bad of anything'. You've been taught that you are born bad so that you will accept that Christ died for you and willing walk into that spiritual & psychological prison.
@kiss and tales. I would like to respond but cannot figure out what you are saying. however i do not regard the bible as a treasure or believe people cannot tell right from wrong without it
Outwest the point of my comment is the value of the bible. Example what is the value of your justice system ?
Not to steal, kill, and even laws of inheritance? If there is no order who could live. The bible is old law used in our law systems
There are a lot of sources for laws in our legal system, but no one uses that as proof that the other sources are Got-breathed, inerrant and infallible.
Dang, I just find myself not caring what these evangelists share. Word is so subjective.
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Kiss andTales says
But many don't like the Doctor because of the Medical industry. Why deny a Creator because of the institution of religion? Why would atheists be so easily manipulated instead why not figure God out on your own terms instead of others'?
They are selling the cure for diseases of wrath, hellfire and sin with no evidence that their disease or the cure for it - God - exist. Also, what makes you think atheists have not sought God outside of religion? I did. Many other atheists have.
Outwest true about what people like, but the comparisom was the very case what we like is a choice , sickness and death is not . saving life should be no choice it should be our duty and right as humans for each other.
they are the same situation.
Cool insight OutWest. I go to church and to the doctor. Neither determines my ultimate belief or judgment but they are a part of it and I appreciate their input.
Eric you ask me a question and I lost the post .sorry but what I remember before I was distracted was are we to get offended when people say negative things. I was going to write you and say the true God stands for our spiritual Father.
The 'true God and spiritual Father' doesn't need a book about him - and he never has. Humans invented religions and they wrote the bible based off of their storytelling brilliance because it tames you and puts your soul in bondage for State Service.
Misfit rather you agree what is needed or not God allowed the process of a book to be catalog from scrolls that is in our museums from Papus. Cuniforms , and many articacts carrying his name and purpose.
That is history before the bible was writte
I'm not saying that there are no ancient scrolls that have been convincingly used in the process of creating the bible and the christian religion. They had to do that to combine the various religions and make it one believable one. Research C history
They had to misfit ? nobody has to do anything. The words written are the ideas of the heavenly Father free to believe as you wish. No one has to read anything. Not forced if you do not want to you do not. Simple. So slavery does not apply here.
Slavery very much applies because you believe that everyone's soul is going to hell unless you believe in Jesus' plagarized salvation message that you are ordered to proliferate cross country ASAP before the apocalypse comes (still waiting).
Misfit you post here on HP why should somebody believe your voice they know only what you write here. So with the same judgment it also should apply to you. The bible has been around longer then any of us so far it is correct from my research.
That is because you 'researched' with the intention of proving your beliefs instead of with an open mind to find the truth. Your research (and many like you) come up with MUCH different conclusions than the rest of us. Why do you suppose that is?
Jesus was. Born in the Jewish line .
His people was well versed in the laws
That Jesus knew. But yet they viewed the law differently
Because they wanted power and positions. We are not to be like them because the truth is more valuble.
Jesus was created from multiple sources and inserted into the already established monotheist religion of Judaism by HIJACKING a few verses that could be made to SEEM to tie him to it - to UNITE the MANY 'gentile' religions to RULE them easier.
I can say with conviction that people who deny proof of God and say proof is not true.You see many of them come on Hp and believe in people they have never seen read their letters and hubs but they believe they exist even they will argue with you.
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Who say? It is up to each individual to decide. That is exactly my point. People from both sides blindly deciding by taking this one book literally. I focused on atheists because they claim God does not exist. So why use a religious text for that
Because there are lots of problematic teaching in the bible, take a few most obvious and problematic ones as example search these passages Chronicles 15:12-13 Deuteronomy 17:2-5 Deuteronomy 22:20-22 Luke 19:27 there are more problematic ones
But these things in the bible can be interpreted in different ways. but besides that it has nothing to do with the actual existence or non-existence of God, So why use it for that reason?
Outwest people have a problem with its contents of moral laws and reject the rest even if it good and tells history and the future. If you accept a piece as true then all is true
If you find fault with a piece all is false this is how people believe
I think this is what my question is all about. How people believe in the bible. People can take it anyway they want to. Lot's of the bible are people revealing their faith. They are not literal type stories. They are meant to show examples of faith
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Outwest it is like a recipe say cake . say we do not need a certain ingredient to make a cake. So we exclude flower or eggs ,baking powder
Yes we could leave something out but would your cake turn out good?
The bible has been an ingredient of life
Taylor Peca says
Outwest you benifit as a citizen that people value prinple laws from the bible. Your neighbor may not steal from you becauae of the Author of the bible.May not be violent. Moral conduct and respect of you and family makes a good neighbor the bible
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