Believers say that Jesus was Son of God. If the God has Son, there must be a father of him. So who is the father of the God? I think that as Man created God, man is father of God. What do you say?
If man created God then man must have created the universe. What do you say?
Haha. Nice come back. I never thought of it from that angle.
Neither is yours logical. If God is infinite how do we (as finite beings) know where God begins or ends? If in fact God begins or ends. Infinite is something we as finite beings use to explain what is not known right?
Well, can you tell me why the Holy books of all religion do not know about dinosaur and America, but man know about them? It is said that the holy books were written by sons of God or those who know 'much' about Gods?
Why would knowing if dinosaurs or America existed be referred to in the holy books? Holy books do not name all the animals in existence at the time of writing them. Only those relevant to whatever story they are telling.
Dinosaurs were not relevant or known to humans in that age. However, creation in Genesis 1:21 does happen to mention that between the emergence of life from the sea and birds came what it describes as ‘the monsters’ (e-thninm) and ‘the great ones’ (e-gdlim). These descriptions would apply to all kinds of creatures in that span of time, including dinosaurs.
@jain yes ...father of god is big bang...on serious notes its human mind which creates god and to answer to penny is NO...if we see evolution of religion , till now humans have created more than 5000 gods which includes allah and jesus...so it is unique ability of humans ...but we see no evidence of man creating universe...may be in future we would great big bang kind of thing in lab which would blow off everything and generate universe...
That's right no evidence man created the universe. No evidence man created God either. 5000 perceptions of God perhaps but are they of the one God or 5000 different Gods?
@penny circumstantial evidence is there though...now let us forget 5000...let us take one god...is allah same as god of bible?
Circumstantial evidence offered via writings that were perceived by different men yes. In my view Allah and God of the bible are the same God just perceived differently.
@penny .if one reads quran and bible , it talks about two different entities totally...now we may say that characteristic of god in quran and bible in combination make god, ...but that wont make god someone to be worshipped...but thats not the point ...pt is humans r story makers and harry potter , jesus and allah have one thing in common...they were author's awesome imagination...
It appears to be different because whomever has taken it upon themselves to describe God were heavily influenced by not only culture, but conditioning and customs of the day. Imagination is often used to describe what is for the most part indescribable.
Kinda like...each woman who has experienced child birth will have a different way of describing giving birth in great detail. They may all be describing 'child birth' the process, but only in accordance with their experience. Whilst experiences might be similar more often than not they are different to each and every woman that experiences the process of child birth.
Allah, God, Buddha etc. etc, are descriptions of the 'God' as per their experience.
That would be like saying one woman's vagina is completely different than another if we were to compare them to gods, and that one child was born completely different than another. Sorry, your example doesn't work at all.
I wasn't comparing the vaginas gees. The 'process' of child birth (natural I might add) and describing it is what I was pointing to. If you don't get I can find another example.
The process of child birth is literally identical to all women. Yes, try and find another example that isn't so easily torn down.
You obviously have no experience with women and their child birth experiences. I have six sisters and six sister in laws and not one of their experiences are identical. Yet they all went through the process of child birth. One sister has had 9 children. Her first child birth experience was not the same as her last one.
My point being that the process or child birth (or bringing life to this world) is the same. The experience of the process differs from woman to woman.
Come now, you're trying to tell me that women don't go through a lot of pain at childbirth? That is basically the experience in a nutshell.
METHODS:All Swedish-speaking women in a large city who gave birth during a two-week period in 1994 were given a questionnaire one day after the birth, and 295 (91%) of the questionnaires were returned. Information about the labor process and medical interventions was collected from hospital records.
RESULTS:Women usually experienced severe pain and various degrees of anxiety, and most were seized with panic for a short time or some part of their labor. Despite these negative feelings, most women felt greatly involved in the birth process, were satisfied with their own achievement, and thought they had coped better than expected.
That's the condensed version. That is definitely not the way any of them would describe it in a face to face, pain by pain, retelling over coffee.
It's kind of like football stories for men when they were in high school. I've never had a man think his personal experiences on the field weren't unique.
Then, you would worship Allah and follow Islam, too. Of course, if we look at the two religions, we find that there are massive differences between the two gods that there is no way perception had anything to do with it.
How do you qualify that statement when you claim to have no belief in God? If you do not know what God is how do you arrive at the massive differences? Even an intellectual understanding of God will require knowing the culture, the customs and traditions of the people. If you believe God is some deity sitting up there in the universe somewhere I understand how you might think God needs to be worshipped in the Christian sense of worship.
Obviously, I have a much better understanding of your religion and other religions than you.
Reading the scriptures of those religions, obviously. How else can we know?
God is described in many different ways in many different religions. You would know that too if you had any understanding of those other religions.
How can you understand a religion I do not have or subscribe to? Understanding God intellectually and experiencing God are two very different things. If it is an intellectual understanding one has I realize that one might believe that they are describing different Gods. If you understand my experience and others experience more than they please do share your experience with God.
You do realize that the Quran was written by the Prophet Muhammad as what he claimed was the original form of the books of Moses before they were altered, right? Both are based on the same ancient writings about the same God.
Wow, so one guy wrote a book based on another book. I'm shocked.
The point is they're both talking about the same God, both claim the same holy land as their own, and both even claim Abraham as a forefather. The difference is, according to the Hebrew version, the ancestors of those who eventually became the Muslim faith were the result of Abraham's sin in having a child, Ishmael, through his handmaiden and the Hebrews were products of Isaac, the son promised by God to Abraham and Sarah in their old age. Muhammad said those stories were altered by the Hebrews throughout the generations and wrote the Quran as the corrected version. And they've been fighting ever since.
Every holy book ever written is evidence that men created gods.
They are different, obviously, if one were to ever actually learn about them, one would know that.
No the books are not evidence that God was created. That is like saying a book describing the function of gravity was evidence man created gravity. It was discovered not created. A book about the universe and how it came into being is not evidence that man created the universe either.
What is obvious to some is not so obvious to others.
If you deny the Holy books, then you would have to deny God also.
That makes no sense whatsoever. No religion looks on the holy books of other religions as holy books. They do believe in God though. How does that fit your statement?
@penny obviously god is not the book...book is outcome of concept called god conceived by writers of the book...so god is manifestation of human thought which gets poured in the book....god doesnot exist other than human brain...no humans , no god...but no human , still universe and world...there is proof that universe existed much before human bursted to scene but there is no proof that god existed till humans create it...yes there is BELIEF that god existed forever...but BELIEF is not fact , it is BELIEF....
Nothing exists without the brain. All manifestations both tangible and intangible would not be discernible without the brain. At least as we know how to discern this from that. Proof that God existed before the universe would depend on how one understands God. As mentioned before God and the origins of the universe are one and the same. Belief and experience are two different things. I might believe evil exists purely because someone else said it does. If I experienced evil then it would not require a belief or someone else to tell me it exists.
So, are you saying God was discovered? Your holy book does not make that claim, neither does any other.
Exactly, but that is the only thing you have as any kind of evidence that your God created the universe, while books written about the origins of the universe do not say anything about gods but instead describe how the universe came about on its own. Huge difference.
No read my post again. I said the books are not evidence that Man created God. If you believe just because someone wrote down their experience it means they must have created God is erroneous thinking. Anyone who created a book then must have created whatever the wrote about.
There is only a huge difference if you subscribe to the deity understanding of God. For some the origins of the universe and God are one and the same.
God's his father, they are the same, they're both an axiom, and a logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question.
but that is from the believers view.
Man has created gods many times over, probably since a thunderstorm in prehistoric times; gods need humans (worship) to exist because they are a metaphysical entity, we made up, to provide an explanation.
If man created Gods, would that not mean man needed Gods and not the other way around as you have stated? Not all Gods have required worship.
How does man create something that is infinite in nature? If that were the case, man would have the ability to create a universe. We cannot create the body let alone the universe.
What is it that man needs explaining?
Because we simply made him up to be infinite.
Man needed answers for lots of things, why are we here, how did we get here etc etc.
Man made the word infinite yes to explain what is unknown. Does not mean to say man created God. If most of our existence is 99% unknown we can not definitively say man created God because God could be the 99% unknown.
Having answers to those questions is not a prerequisite for existing though. Nor does every man need to know those answers. We exist. How will knowing those answers change how we exist do you think?
Many men need gods, we search for explanations and need the answers, man creates what it thinks it needs; that doesn't mean we can't live with out it or that since we needed it, it had to have created us.
What gods don't need man to talk of them? or know of their existence? if every person/text on earth about christianity disappeared, the religion and its god would cease to exist. Leaving... everyone else,
but i guess that's what hell should be like? ahaha
Many do, I agree, but not all. Whether they do need God or not does not necessarily mean they have created God. We need air to breathe yet we did not create it. We need food to eat, yet we did not create it.
You are referencing the Christian God. There are many perceptions of God not just the Christian God. Check out other versions of God and you might find most do not require worship or religion to exist. Knowing God did not always require an intermediary like Jesus. To take away any texts or person believing in God you would need to eliminate almost the entire population. Even then those who are left will sooner or later experience God and the cycle will begin again.
Yes i referenced christianity as an examples, but you didn't answer the question: "What gods don't need man to talk of them? or know of their existence?"(i'm well read on most religions)
They are are titles to a metaphysical entity, presence, resonance, but we are the creators of those categories alike all others; as in, yes we created food and air, they are both titles for a coming together of elements that we named to better define and explain them.
As for what your getting at, no, man did no create the universe; or really man has created the known universe, but yes the unknown universe is here, not by man, ha.
you said- ""Even then those who are left will sooner or later experience God and the cycle will begin again.""
Those people left would be the creators of god, i.e. primordial man.
If creating God means for you naming or labelling 'what is' then I do agree. Man categorizes, labels, titles all that is known of the universe and even parts that are unknown. And in answer to your question. No, God does not need man to talk to them or know of their existence.
Yes again. The people left will feel the need to describe what we have no language to describe (assuming everything got destroyed pertaining to any type of God) and the labelling and categorizing will begin again.
Close, it's naming what we experience, but "god" has been the place holder backing up every claim that is made, the end of the "where'd that come from?" chain; the end all feelings, but feelings can only manifest through humans to then die with humanity.
But now the conversation shifts back to the beginning, with God being metaphysical, alike moral absolutism. (and earlier i meant a specific religion, or specific god)
Now you've lost me.
How do you mean place holder? Backing up what claim? How do you mean 'where did that come from' end of chain? What do you mean by end all feelings? What conversion shift are you referring to and what has moral absolutism got to do with any thing we are discussing?
We decided it's a category, as in, "god" is the title of an innate presence we feel. This god is the answer behind, where everything came from; i suppose that might have used an idiom, its a chain, a continuance of "what created something" until you wind up at God.
Anyway that last part was referencing the foreshadow in my first comment:
"God's his father, they are the same, they're both an axiom, and a logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question.
but that is from the believers view."
This fallacy brings about circular reasoning.
Oh gees am a bit slow tonight. Think I am beginning to get what you mean. No beginning, no end seems to make sense. Circular like the nothingness. Where we come from and that's where we end. At least the physical being that we are and the sentient nature that we are aware of.
Exactly, God is the "Alpha and the Omega" really sums that all up. It's a really simple answer to a rather difficult question, my problem is, it literally contradicts rational and logic, which is what i live by.
A next question then, how can you be so certain in your emotions? More specifically, do you think only the benevolent emotions stim from God?
Tying this to the prompt, ...i guess the prompts been saturated, in that case, check out my theory, i think you might like it: http://dustinstaples.hubpages.com/hub/Gods-Thought
@penny How does man create something that is infinite in nature?...in thoughts...bcoz god never existed...it is concept that there is something infinite in nature...god - human brain = non existing diety...world-human brain = world without one species, universe-earth = universe - one planet...thats the difference between concept of god and existing entities..
Do you know of the German philosopher 'Feurerbach'? He posited this perfectly!
There can be no father of Creator.
To state there must be, or is, also states Creator was begotten.
Anything born or created has a name, title given it by its creator.
Man is born, and gods are born from the minds of man.
Even the first man, who was not born, was created and called the father of all mankind.
God is a title, ascribed by man to whatever he deems greater than himself.
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