1. I've never met an evangelicval atheist:. They're under no commission to spread the gospel of atheism to every creature so they have no problem with what I choose to believe or not believe.
2. No atheist has ever told me I'm going to hell if I don't believe in atheism.
3. Atheists base their paradigm on empirical evidence rather than revealed authority
4. Atheists don't require fiat belief in things I know are not true
5. Atheists don't require me to give them 10% of my income to support atheism.
I will hug anyone friendly enough to want a hug, no matter what they believe, as long as they are good and caring individuals who don't judge others based on what they believe. Not many people around me know I amm an atheist unless they ask or attempt to preach to me. If you are goinng to preach to me or discuss beliefs that is probably the only time you will hear me talk about being an atheist. These forums, hubpages, responses to unfriendly christians online, is really the only release I have from keeping my mouth shut to these unfriendly hypocrites who call themselves "Christians".
Please line up to hug me immediately. I can also promise to provide tea and cookies.
As too the O.P .......each of your points are taken into advisement . Even though they show a biased slant! Heres a hug for you anyway- O-.....:-}
Well, atheists are human too, I can give them a hug!
And what about us agnostics!?! I want to get hugged, too!!!
Don't worry ... We'll get some from God ;-)
Agnostics should at least get a knuckle bump. Who was it that said, "Athiests are agnostics with balls!"? lol
I did a search for hug emoticons and found a site with that one, then it was just a case of copying the code for forums and pasting here (did check the preview first to be sure it was compatible, so far every time I have done this it has worked). I think if you hold your mouse over the smiley it should show the url, but I am not sure of that
Just checked and yup, it shows the url for the smiley, also if you click it it will take you to the site I got it from
We about to get loads of cute smileys from you?
Well if you all come here to the top of the hill (I guess the snow which is falling thickly right now will have stopped by then) we can all sit around the camp fire, share our deeper stuff together, then bring out the cookies and cake and coffee. When do you want the hugs? Before or after?
If I get to pick the atheist to hug can I hug you Jonny? I promise I'll only feel you up a little *grins*
Well there were the Darwin's Witnesses who went from door to door trying to convert people and make them unborn again. (Wish I remembered which comedian I stole this from but alas - it goes without credits.)
Hug an athiest and ask him/her if you can do anything to help. At all times preach the gospel -- use words when necessary. (St. Franciss)
Some atheists are cute and fuzzy. He does look somewhat nonplussed though...
The best reason to like them is their pragmatic attitude.
And I'm sure that atheists would argue that everyone becomes an atheist upon death... or they would... if they had time to figure out that there was nothing else afterwards.
The feeling is mutual but I don't bother with pity. You believe what you want about who you want.
Number one isn't true. There are plenty of them, just look at the forums online here.
Number 1 is true for me. They may challenge me on an intellectual bases but I welcome that. They don't pity me if I don't believe as they do.
They tend not to evangelize unbidden, but they don't back away from an argument.
QUOTE FROM LINK BELOW...
"According to a study conducted by Gallup in May 2010, 16% of Americans declared they have no religious affiliation. " "The latest statistics show that a lack of religious identity increased in every US state between 1990 and 2008. However less than 2% of the U.S. population describes itself as atheist."
Self-description is the key here. If you look at the full Pew survey, there are a surprising number of self-described Christians, Jews, and Muslims who also say they either don't believe there is a god or are unsure of god's existence. It ranges from 2% up to more than 10% depending on denomination.
So there are a lot of atheists and agnostics in the closet, apparently.
Yes, you're right. I am aware of that. I also think that there is something to be said for people who have the courage to say that they are atheists. It's difficult to nail one's colors to the mask when the cannot are getting ready to shoot one down...
It does take courage to acknowledge oneself as an atheist. And what makes it so ill is Christians still try to pretend like they are the persecuted martyrs, never realizing that the history and attitudes of Christians may be what makes people turn away from Christianity.
That's true about athiests. However, show me orginazations created by athiests to feed the hungry of the world. That build orphanages. That due Christmas gifts for inner city kids. Show me missionaires in foriegn countries promoting love and health and giving away medical care all in the name of the selfish, depressing, hopeless idea of athiesism. They don't bug you or tell you about hell because they don't care about you or anyone else. However true believers in Jesus will try to help you, not curse you. I would tell about heaven and eternal life without pain, hurt, grief, bills, death. depression, sickness, loss, rape, hate and greed. That's what Jesus offers you. A choice. Never forced. But in the end, if surrendering your heart and life to Jesus is not chosen, the very last thing would be hell. But that day is not yet. Living for Jesus is the most fulfilling life. There is no other way to be fulfilled. Athiesism offers nothing. And that is worse than anyone telling you about hell.
Despite the majority of people in the USA being Christians, according to the 2009 census, half of its people are living in poverty.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-573 … ow-income/
In addition, one in two people in the USA suffers from a mental illness, 85% hate their jobs, and about 10% take anti-depressants.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/10 … epressants
With all this 'giving,' one would a right to think that Christians have finally got some results to all their hard work. I don't see it.
Please can you show me the results of this generosity of spirit.
You can't see it because the urban underclass are invisible to most people. Ask any guy who looks like he has no money - girls act as if he isn't there. But I can testify that churches help with: evictions, electricity, gas, and even getting furniture (OK, not the best but better than a floor).
St. Francis, Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, but they aren't the only ones who help, Buddhist & Jewish orgs help out. I'm sure there are others that I've haven't mentioned here.
Others that help - but gotta be ex-military: DAV, Wounded Warriors (some guy and his family just got a mortgage free house!) I'm sure people help as much as they can whoever they are it's just that some of them only help themselves! I've seen volunteers at food banks help themselves to crates of produce and sell the next day at the flea market - oh yeah - I reported it to the organization.
ptosis, no they don't.
I was homeless for nine months until three weeks ago. No church would help me when they found out I was an atheist. Instead they preached the gospel at me. When I indicated that while I respected their belief, my need was for money, not for faith, they wanted nothing more to do with me. They only help if they can 'reap your soul.'
Why did you tell them that? That was stupid. NO org EVER asked me that question - so you must've offered that useless piece of information unbidden.
Yeah these churchy people think they are so special by doing you a favor - but that must've been some crappy church. At the Good Neighbor homeless shelter, one of the workers was a 450 pound sex freak (ugh) harrassing other workers, the other was a gay guy who let young boys stay at his house, (ugh) and NOTHING was done about it!. Some places truly suck.
Sophia I had the same issue years ago. They actually asked me what faith I was and when I replied that I considered myself atheist suddenly they were out of funds for the month. The funny thing was our friend who was also struggling went in two hours later and was not only helped but they also offered food and clothing to him.
They are not supposed to ask you that question because they receive federal funding from Bush43 who said that faith based orgs should get the money instead of gov't program to help people out. Whenever a person asks you such a personal question such as your faith or why you are on SSDI - you have to remind them that's an illegal question.
I'm always shocked when folks ask me such illegal questions - and no - didn't get help from them but I sure would like to know how and where to report them.
Useful info. I think I'll go ask again. Haven't got money for rent this month and am panic stricken. Thought would make it and my first home for nine months...
Have to have an eviction notice, shut off notice for electric or gas - have to have documentation
What is the point of that?
So, despite the fact that I have been taught to plan ahead, to handle things before the worst happened, I have to go against all good sense and damage everything about my life before one gets help?
Good grief, if that's the way Christianity works, no wonder it's for losers.
Actually, it's the way our government social programs work as well.
According to people who either don't use the programs and don't know or people who abuse any system so bad they have no idea how to do anything honestly.
can you write that in better English so that I can understand what you were saying? No doubt you cut and pasted and it went awry! Thanks.
According to the way our Government social programs work (the corruption of it)....People who don't use the programs or abuse the programs (and don't know how to do anything honestly) are not experts at how these programs work to help people who really need them.
Does that clear it up at all. I tend to ramble so I can understand how my words can sometimes get mixed up from my head to the screen and not recognize what I have done til after I have reread it... It always makes sense when you were thinking it, but to someone who doesn't know what is in your head it seems like Latin. Cut and paste? No.
Way back when, I reported that I earned $2 from Adsense for a given month. The foodstamps folks immediately took away $2 of our foodstamps.
Bottom line. Anything you do to try to improve your situation, Social Services will immediately take it away or otherwise offset it. And that is what makes welfare so totally destructive to the recipient. All desires and attempts to succeed are completely crushed. And for the record, I am pro Social Services programs. It's how they are run is where everything gets screwed up.
ParadignSearch, Totally. I agree with you.
I think the people who set these things up have the best motives in the world, but the people who resent 'giving away their hard earned money' do their best to limit what is given. In doing that, they don't give these people (me included) the resources to get out of the poverty trap.
Hmm. Interesting turn of topic.
But yes, you are sadly correct. A friend of mine received Social Security, and it was absolutely forbidden that she save ANY of the money she got. So, when tuition is $3000, and you only get $1000 per month, and can't save, well...she didn't go to school while on Social Security. She couldn't. Also, since she was required to spend ALL the money, she would be found buying myself and others stuff at the end of every month, just so she didn't get it taken away. I'm not talking big things, I'm talking like a shirt or a meal, because even if she had $12 left over, that she didn't need to spend, she HAD to spend it.
A while back I was designing brochure for the United Church of Canada and in the middle of the meeting the marketing guy asked me what faith I belong to. I didn't answer directly, but told him I was raised a Catholic. He got up and left. Never heard from him again.
I've found this to be the attitude repeatedly for 15 or 20 years, and it goes right across the spectrum. The only religious organisation that I've found to date that doesn't do this are Jews. However, they have their own criteria. If you can't show them how you are going to get out of the situation, they're not that keen on helping. In fairness, they will attempt to help you to get out of it. They just won't invest in people who won't help themselves.
That's right, hon.
No soul should be for sale, whether you believe you have one or not.
So charitable, but without universal health care. With that the people of the US don't want share.
All these NGOs don't seem to have the slightest effect on the poverty statistics. If they were really helping and there are so many of them then there should be no urban underclass.
A suggestion, then: Powerful business people, whether they be male or female, have the ability to assist the needy humanity around them. Not by the altruistic and often egotistical giving out of freebies in public. ( This can belittle those on the receiving end.) I am talking about honest, caring, thoughtful and ethical business practice.
If the product is exploiting the weak and needy; if it's feeding the pockets of individuals who are already rich; if it's not sustainable by way of supporting ongoing ecological needs; if it employs huge, expensive, energy-hungry machinery which had to be imported from 10,000 miles away, again feeding into the pockets of the rich; if the product is amassing basic ingredients into absolutely useless, yet expensive, cola drinks, which are not nutritious or healthy; all the above can add heavily to the plight of the poor.
Think any of the opposites and you have a way to lift the lives of your fellow human beings. It does not matter what their religion or culture. They are all you fellow brothers and sisters.
I am led to believe that much of the big business which is carried on in the United States, and elsewhere in the world, is directed by individuals who call themselves christian. O.k, so show us your Christ-like nature and stop being so greedy.
There are many atheist and humanist groups that do all the things religious groups do. I am part of my local group of Atheist and Freethinkers. We do a lot of good in the community. For some crazy reason it even makes news and people fight to stop us. The group in the next state over get together and walk the streets picking up trash while Christians gather and get angry over it. The difference between Christian or any religious group and Atheists is we do it just for the sake of doing it, while religious groups feel the need to do good for a book and in the process feel the need to look down on those who don't believe the same as them.
Simply google the phrase "Atheist to clean up" "Atheist helping" or go to www.atheistshelpingthehomeless.org/ and you will see we do plenty, all without a hope for a reward!
If it were true that atheism offers nothing then why did i become an atheist? 1900 years of Christian history says nothing good about Christianity and who are the richest organizations in the world... Christian ones, where does the money go? To build bigger and better churches. My cousin is married to a minister of a calvery church and they went on a charity mission and they brought back many pictures, not one was them helping people. Looks like they had lots of fun though.
How can you say that?
Atheists may not offer you a god to pray to, they do offer logic, reason, and from those science and technologies that can give hope and solve problems.
Christians, however, only offer spiritual and religious subservience, with no hope of spiritual empowerment or enlightenment.
Christians cannot pat themselves on the back for the charity work they do. They've been telling us about the children starving in Africa for the last forty years when I was a kid. Forty years later those children are still starving. Why? There is a saying in Africa "They came to our land with their Bibles and taught us to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened our eyes we had their Bibles and they had our land." It's the same in the inner city. Just saccharin imperialism. You take what people have, and in the name of Jesus you destroy their culture, kill their leaders, rape their women, enslave their children, then when they are weak and helpless you come to them with charity expecting them to be grateful.
Atheists are no more selfish or hopeless than Christians or anyone else. Is this the best argument you can make, full of half truths and unsupportable stereotypes? Yes, I guess it is and that's one reason I will hug my local atheist.
So well told. I was about to compose something for that ridiculous remark, but when I scrolled down I read yours and new I couldn't do better.
Thank you Rhonda... I was searching for words and you spoke them for me.
I'm not religious but there must be something out there because I have a guardian angel - I've should have been dead 10x over with all the close calls I've had in my lifetime. One time my life was saved by a complete selfish moron who didn't realize what he did. That's why I know good works are nothing.
I was walking across the street & this guy guns his truck past me even though he had the red light. He delayed me 2 seconds. I finished crossing the street and right in front of me - about 2 seconds in front of me - where I would've been walking - if he didn't delay me - a 15 foot piece of drainage conduit fell off the building right in front of me.
And you think God did that for you, but he's never around when others die from horrific accidents? You must be special I guess. Too bad God wasn't there on 9/11 or when that tsunami struck.
There is another 11th of September soon ... and all these questions are still wide open .... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 8603788739
Just finished watching that video. Very compelling. I would love to see a video attempting to debunk this video to get the other side.
The REAL culprit of it all were the war criminals, Bush, Cheney & friends who felt they had to stop Iraq from selling their oil for gold or Euros, since it was undermining the value of the petro dollar and not creating any profits for the oil cartels ... the official version isn't even touching the REAL facts!
This kind of thing happens to everybody in the world, regardless of religion and lack thereof. It has happened to me hundreds of times in my life and continues to happen, and I'm definitely a hardcore atheist.
I would argue that most people don't know what they are doing when fate intervenes... I once changed lanes to avoid two or three fast drivers, looked like they were racing, it was really late at night (highway was practically empty). I slowed down and got away from these people; minutes later, I drove by and saw them in the ditch, surrounded by flares, lights, and sirens. I only realize now that my decision to slow down and move away may have saved my life.
On athiests; no, they don't really preach anything, mainly because they have nothing to preach. And I can appreciate being left alone! That's not to say that some Christians and other religious people haven't been met by me with a warm and welcoming ear. If you treat me with respect, I am more than willing to listen to your gospel.
I have had several incidents where I could have and should have been killed. One of which landed me in the hospital and near death, thanks to a drunk driver. I am alive and well and have never had a broken bone.... Which is also sometimes amazing. Do I need angels or god to explain this to me, no that would be silly to me. But if it makes you feel better, believe what you like.
It does make me feel better. Is it rational? Probably not. I never said I was rational.
People are beating up on the Catholics - good. That's one of the reasons why Luther nailed his piece of paper on the church door. Most Christians are not Catholics and most local churches are not made of stained glass and stone. I guess that's the difference between a dead religion and a live one.
Well, good for you, more information than was necessary but good for you.
I am aware how different sects of Christianity came about, that doesn't make them valid. But then again that is why Mormonism was formed as well. There are also many different versions of the Bible, there are many different ceremonies for worship, Jew->Christian->Mormon-> what's next?
Your comment is a oft repeated cliche which shows no sign of compassion or understanding of human neurology.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
ID the cliche please.
what part shows lack of compassion
and where does neurology comment come from.
I became a born-again christian in 1975... They were already saying, "that's the difference betweena dead religion and a live one" then. One of the things that Christians do is hear their preachers, elders, ministers, pastors, etc. say things. They think these sayings are original, but after a while, you realize that they are just repeating things blindly.
"People are beating up on the Catholics - good." Wow. I suppose beating up on people is a good thing so long as the people are 'of the devil.' That reveals two things, a) you don't have a compassionate bone in your body and b) you know nothing of human neurology. If you understood that the human brain believes what it hears repeatedly, you'd know that people became catholic because they were born that way or they heard the message often. That's the same reason people become protestant, muslim, jewish, or anything else. In other words, you don't understand how the human brain works, i.e. neurology.
If you want to look, you can find wrong with anyone out there. If we were perfect, Jesus didn't need to come and die for us. Jesus perfection makes us perfect. I'm sorry if anyone has been wronged by a church or religious organization in the name of Jesus. Jesus taught us to love God first with all our heart. And then to love our neighbor as we love ourself. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Jesus said that. Any person calling themselves a Christian, which means little Christ, and not following His words, is misrepresenting His precious holy name. If you've been treated bad by a church. If someone calling themselves a Christian hurt you, realize that Jesus would never hurt you. He will never leave you. He will never forsake you. And he commanded us to plead for the orphan and the widow. To feed the hungry. From Billy Graham and watchman née and ray comfort and David wilkerson and Reinhard Bonnke there are so many men and women representing Christ to the world. And they werent perfect. But they serve the one who is
Billy Graham was penny less was he? Was he Christ like (without sandals)? I find it interesting which things American's decide is Christ like. They don't have a problem asking little old ladies for there last buck so they can buy a new plane. That is not Christ like. Two things we do know is that he was an anti-semite and he lied about it.
"In 2009, more Nixon tapes were released, in which Graham is heard in conversation with Nixon referring to Jews and "the synagogue of Satan." A spokesman for Graham said that Graham has never been an anti-Semite and that the comparison (in accord with the context of the quotation in the Book of Revelation) was directed specifically at those claiming to be Jews, but not holding to traditional Jewish values."
"Treat others the way you want to be treated."
So pedophiles should definitely have sex with little girls and boys because they would most definitely like little girls and boys to have sex with them.
The above philosophy has always struck me as ridiculous.
Billy Graham, watchman née, ray comfort, David wilkerson, Reinhard Bonnke, and thousands and thousands of others made millions from religion. They lived in that style. If they had truly been 'christlike', they would have lived as poor people and given their wealth to other people. That's what the early church congregants did.
As Jesus said, it was easier for a camel (virtually impossible actually) to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. So, essentially, none of the above will go to heaven as they are rich.
ohhh yeh ... what ever the real facts about a guy called Jesus, he is a perfect myth and you are obviously living in fantasy land ... the wealth and power of the catholic empire is not being applied to fix the ills of humanity but to keep the pope and the rest of the establishment from making liberation theology work!
And there are people saying Number 1 is true?
The problem with your statement about number one being true or false is the context in which it is being used by you. Do you expect atheists to just sit quietly and take the preachings of beliefs they don't have and not say anything at all in defense of their beliefs, rights to believe or opinions? I have had friendly and unfriendly discussions with Christians and though I disagree with the friendly ones I have kept it friendly. The unfriendly ones tend to say things that are basically character attacks, underhanded or back handed and just straight up slanderous. The phrase, what would Jesus do, comes to mind.
Uh huh. And his comment wasn't attacking Christians?
And your comments aren't attacking atheists? Like I said. We are supposed to remain silent when criticized as you do?
Uh. No. But let's just all fess up and admit to doing the same things, instead of only blaming Christians for things while ignoring that atheists do it too.
If you consider that one, we are all humans who make mistakes and some of us no matter what we believe are prone to acts of intolerance and "evil" and two not all atheists are science based critical thinkers: Buddhists, and Taoists and nihilists (who believe in nothing) etc. Then I will agree yes. But if your main concern is truth, justice and fairness for all human beings and to some this extends to all life, then I will say you probably shouldn't generalize about "all atheists/believers" am I right?
Now when I say anything about some Christians doing some bad things, I am not referring to you, my parents, some of my family members, or amish (they don't do anything for or against society except make great furniture), but those in the process of doing things unfair to others not Christian and those those Christians throughout history that have used Christianity as an excuse to proselytize, torture, shun, bomb, protest, murder, and commit terrible acts of genocide towards all unbelievers or different believers and are still to this day doing it.
Right. I should clarify that I didn't mean ALL atheist and ALL Christians either. Obviously, there are "crazy" people all over the place. Further, I don't agree with the history of Christians and what they have done, and do, and will continue to do. I definitely wasn't saying that atheists have done the same things as you have listen the Christians as doing. I was saying that "some" atheists can also have that argumentative attitude where they feel the need to teach Christians they're wrong.
That's just people from any group. We (all people) are only human (and I am speaking for everyone here), we all make mistakes and we all have tempers and we all tend to treat each other rottenly when we are attacked. No one is perfect.
Except me.... (that is a joke for those of you with no sense of humor)
If someone tries to tell me that two plus two equal five and I know this is incorrect am I being argumentative when I tell them they are incorrect? I will not apologize for having weight and taking up space.
Rufus89, the point is that atheists remained silent for thirty or forty years. The last ten years, they've had more than enough. So now they're speaking back. Sorry, but atheists aren't commanded to go out and convert people; Christians are.
We're just tired of your efforts to convert us, so now we're talking about.
Good for them. There is freedom of speech, and if they feel the need to speak out, then go for it! Everyone can. Therefore, number one isn't always true, since, as you say, atheists are now speaking out.
Agreed on your second point. They aren't commanded to go out, since there isn't someone commanding them. But, I don't think you or I could say that they might not have a personal command to go out and teach people. In the end, I meant to say that, since atheists aren't bound by some organization, there are individuals who do take it upon themselves to try and prove Christians wrong.
I just want all of us, Christians or atheists, to be honest with each other and especially with ourselves. Both sides DO argue... And what's the end goal of an argument?
There is a difference between defending ones right to believe what one wills and evangelizing. Christians are very aggressive about foisting their beliefs on others.
Really? How? The only two churches that actively have missionary programs are the Mormon church and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The way you say "Christians are very aggressive" makes it seem as if every single day someone is coming to wherever you are and "trying to convert you".
It's been a long time since someone has tried to convert me. Maybe it's only where you live? Or maybe it only happens to you? Otherwise, please help me understand what is happening to you to make you feel that way.
On Memorial Day my family and I attended a parade. This lady walks up to us with fliers to a Baptist church. I very politely thank her for it and assume that's the end. During this I have my three-year old on my hip. This is a child that I intend to keep out of public school- like the rest of my children until they were old enough- SPECIFICALLY to avoid any type of religious indoctrination. My children don't even go to church with ME after all.
So anyway this woman looks at me and my precious little girl and asks if WE have been saved. I'm not sure what my daughter needs saved from but anyway.... I politely told her that "saving" wasn't part of my religious philosopy and that at three my daughter didn't have a religious preference. She then said... and I quote... "If you two aren't saved then you are both going to hell."
That women was a representative of her Baptist church and I'm quite certain that we weren't the only people in that parade that she AGGRESSIVELY tried to convert. Nor was my child likely the only one she abused and terrified. I will tell you that had I not been trying to be a good role model for my kids there would be a zealot with a few less teeth in this world.
Haha! I like your last paragraph Yea, I agree. That is pretty annoying.
Applied to the conversation, though, I can't really say if that was "aggressive" or not. To play the "devil's advocate", I will say that she was simply stating her belief that all who aren't saved go to hell. I don't know the tone of her voice when she said it, or the feeling in her heart, so I can't really say if she was "aggressive" or not.
So, while very annoying, it's not much different than an atheist posting on HubPages saying that a Christian is foolish for believing in an imaginary fairy god in the sky. In both cases, the believer is stating their opinion and applying it to the life of another person.
The assumption that needs to be cleared up with the Baptist lady is that after she tells us we're going to hell, we "assume" that hell is for bad or evil people. However, in reality, according to the lady, hell is really just for people who aren't "saved". So, it's not really a personal attack against us, as if we're horrible people.
In other religions, people who aren't baptized go to hell. Further, in other religions, people who do evil things without remorse (regardless of being saved or baptized) go to hell. So, every definition of hell is different.
The problem is: People don't like being told something about themselves by someone else. Atheists don't like being told they're going to hell, even if they don't believe in hell. Christians don't like being told they're foolish for believing in an imaginary person. In general, it's just very annoying, and constant annoyance turns into something even stronger.
I don't know where you live and I don't know of any Christian denomination that does NOT have an active missionary program. Even many Christians who aren't involved in a formal program put subtle and not so subtle pressure on people they meet every day. It's what the Bible commands them to do and if they aren't doing it they are disobedient to their God. I have lived in six different states, and trust me, it's prolific.
Evangelism is concentrating their efforts on the unreached peoples of the world,
LDS is the fast growing religion in Oceania.
The Calvary Church has a mission to Vanuatu, another speck in the vast Pacific. Crazy as it seems, "There is great pressure on...Vanuatu, Tuvalu, and Nauru to unrecognize Abkhazia," Gulbis said, adding that Washington is "withholding aid" to the countries over the issue. - http://www.rferl.org/content/abkhazia-v … 88283.html
Oh hell! Here they go again. Can't christian sects stop interfering in other peoples' lives? Surely they have done enough damage throughout the world, down through the centuries.
Our world needs us to devote our energies in finding practical solutions for life, not wasting time by concentrating on the airy-fairy belief of a life beyond death.
Evangelists - Grow Up !
It's pointless to talk to atheists about Jesus. Especially ones that did research on the subject. We dont believe Jesus ever existed.
Many atheists believe that Jesus existed, at least in the historical sense.
Those who haven't researched it who maybe don't question it. Something's just aren't that important.
It is kind of irrelevant (to atheists anyway) wether or not Jesus was a real person. He may have been and he had many great things to say if he said them, but nothing in those words is any proof that he was God.
Not believing doesn't equal not important. I don't believe in Islam/Christianity, but I'm not going to go around saying it's not important when a billion people ID themselves as such. That would be a total denial of reality not to acknowledge the historical and political importance to 2/3 of the world's population!
Funny how people fight the hardest against those closest to themselves. On this forum: christians or ex-christians and in the ME is Sunni & Shites.
This joke from http://www.nobeliefs.com/jokes.htm
I like the joke about Wilson's nails the best.
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
So what about people who believe in UFOs and Alien Abductions? How important politically are they to you? I am not going to pretend that because a person's opinion is important about the existence of something that is in reality NOT. Especially when what they believe in is a mythology from 2000+ years ago. They can believe whatever they want, I won't stop them. But the second they use their belief as an excuse to dictate rules by which others must live by they are not just stepping on the rights of those that don't believe but those that believe something completely different. It doesn't matter that they are in the majority, it doesn't make it right or good. Look at Slavery and Black oppression, if the majority of White people think the minority of Black people should be slaves or killed or segregated, does that make any of the choices I just stated, even the lesser one, right? Same goes with any group of any type of people. Even the minority have rights that protect them from majority rule.
I didn't say that it was right - I said that it's important. That's two different things.
I am glad you don't think it is right, but that was not the question.
Again, ARE UFOs IMPORTANT? A good many people, probably more people that there are atheists, believe in the existence of UFO. Does that make them important? Does belief by a majority of people make something important enough to impose the standards of that belief on those that do not believe in it when the belief itself can be questioned for validity?
Belief in UFO's is important. UFO's themselves are not. Religion, which is a belief in god(s) is important. Gods are not.
Only in the sense that people with beliefs that are unstable/unrealistic/unshared by everyone can make same said decisions, those people should not be using these types of unshared beliefs as basis for the laws that effect all of us.
Or... Everyone's opinion counts, no matter what their beliefs are. Beliefs don't play in. Criminal history, yes; age, yes; citizenship, yes. But not beliefs. Didjakno, you don't have to be athiest to vote?
If heard this argument several times. To be honest, I don't understand. What laws are based on "unshared beliefs" that effect us all?
Chasuk, there isn't one ounce of historical, secular research for the existence of Jesus Christ. There is, however, evidence for the existence of someone on whom all the myths were based.
For instance, Christians will often claim that Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived at the time of Jesus mentioned that Jesus's disciples said he did miracles. The only thing is that this was added to Josephus's writing in 1000 AD and before that, there is absolutely no mention of Jesus at all.
I take it, therefore, that even in 1000 AD, the church realized there was no evidence for a man-god.
The evidence of Jesus' existence is inconclusive at best. The reason is because biblical archaeology is notoriously unreliable. Most, if not all, biblical archaeologists are believers, and thus their findings tend to be tainted by their self-interest. There just aren't enough neutral archaeologists doing biblical archaeology (mainly because mainstream archaeologists don't think biblical archaeology is important).
That's very true. But it is kind of hard to look at things like the way the Romans adopted Christianity just three centuries after the time when Jesus was supposed to have lived in one of the Roman Providences if there was absolutely no truth to his existence.
Or the Romans used Christianity to control it's citizens. 300 years is still a long time. What the story of Jesus did was create a martyr. This is how Jesus rose from the dead. There is no evidence of him coming back to life, but we are still talking about him more than 2000 years since his death. It was a powerful story. If he did actually rise be could have showed himself to thousands including those that killed him.
What is astounding is in Matthew 24 Jesus describes the tribulation, his second coming and the rapture and tells the people their generation would not pass until all those things had happened. Now the Church has millions of people believing in an event that should have already taken place 2,000 years ago. Amazing.
I'm saying this with love: Sometimes we view things how we want to when we don' t believe in it anyway. Jesus was not saying those events would take place in their lifetime/bible days. When Jesus says "THIS generation," he's not referring to the current generation of that day, but he's talking about the generation that is around in the future to witness the events mentioned earlier in that chapter. If you will, I encourage you go over the entire chapter again to get a better view of the message.
Excuse me, crissylite, but isn't this dependent upon your beliefs? There can be no absolute proof that this was meant for later generations. Presumably numerous theologians have delved into it.
If Jesus meant a later generation, he would not have said "this" generation. The context of the passage does not change the fact that he was talking to a group of people and he meant them. These interpretation acrobatics do nothing more than prove the Bible can be made to say whatever you want it to say. Don't deny this and then keep doing it.
He didn't say "our generation" or "your generation." He said "this generation" after he described FUTURE events/prophecy. Here's the thing...All the way in the book of Genesis, the coming of a savior (Jesus) was predicted to come...which did take place, but a loooooong time after.
Another thought...why would Jesus describe all these future events and then discuss His return while he was still there and mean it to take place in that current generation?
Also, Jesus said he would not return until the gospel was spread (or preached) throughout the ends of the earth (so that every nation would have the chance to know Him and believe). I don't think this was going to happen within a few years or during that one generation (during the 'bible days'). We are getting closer to that point today.
I think we're getting further from that, actually.
Though more countries are free to read stuff and make informed decisions, Christianity is becoming more and more rejected throughout the world. There are still some pockets where it dominates (European countries, places like Tennessee and Arkansas, etc.) But in other places, I know first-hand how attending church on Sunday is a very strange thing, and those religious kids that went to my high school didn't really have any friends.
The most recent example of rejection of Christianity on a wide scale I can think of is Chick-fil-A. The university I attended recently kicked them out, and now the closest one is 200-something miles away. Christian stuff is very unwelcome in my community. I can't even think where the nearest community church is, certainly not within walking distance of my home (whereas in Tennessee, they were everywhere).
Other examples of rejection of Christianity:
Removal of the "under God" thing, a few years back.
Separation of church and state, hundreds of years back.
Pop music: Can't think of any 'pop' artist that labels themselves as Christian; they probably wouldn't be allowed in. Evanescence and Katy Perry are two examples I can think of of Christian artists that casted away that label in order to become successful.
Yes, I can think of more if I tried... But, especially over the last couple hundred years, modern society has made a great movement away from Christianity. If you care to prove your statement, please do so, I am listening.
What is astounding is in Matthew 24 Jesus describes the tribulation, his second coming and the rapture and tells the people their generation would not pass until all those things had happened. Now the Church has millions of people believing in an event that should have already taken place 2,000 years ago. Amazing.
I believe that all o0f these things which were described in Matthew 24 DID happen just as Jesus said that it would.
The first five of the seven seals were opened immediately after Jesus arrived in heaven upon his crucifixion. (Rev5:6) Jesus was not yet in heaven (Rev 5:4) and then suddenly he stood in the middle of the crowd still looking like a bloody lamb as if it had just been slain.
V12 there was a great earthquake
Matthew 24:7 "... and earthquakes in divers places .."
In 62AD a Great earthquake too place of the coast of Itally destroying Pompei. For the next 17 years earthquakes became common until Vesuvius erupts in 79AD.
Daniel 11:45 describes the "Little Horn" coming to his end
12:1 "And at "THAT time" Michael stands up for the children of Daniels people to redeem some from among man and some from the graves. This happened when the fourteenth emperor of Rome died (138 AD) By this time there was no longer a Hebrew Nation. Hadrian had scattered the power of the Holy people through out the rest of the Roman Empire.
That Hebrew Nation had come to "The End Of Days" exactly as Jesus foretold.
At that time the seventh seal was opened.
In 96 AD St John writes of a vision which describes a Religion which will "SOON" come into power which will lead the people astray. IF everything did happen exactly as is written in scripture, then THIS mis-interpretation IS the foundation, the church is built upon; exactly as God said that it would be.
Unfortunately, people believe the interpretations of those self proclaimed wise men instead of believing the simple words spoken by the Messiah. Exactly as the lord knew they would.
I heard that Revelation was written by an aramaic speaking Jew.
Revelation 1:6 would indicate that the book was written to Jews. The author of Revelation hated Rome, but he also scorned another group – a group of people we would call Christians today, Pagels says. The original intent of the Book of Revelations was to keep early Christians essentially more Jewish.  The label synagogue of Satan was directed not at Jews, but at Judaizing Gentiles 
 http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/3 … evelation/
 http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/well … evelations
 http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c … age-Smyrna
Absolutely. There's a conflict of interest when someone who believes in the bible is trying to prove the bible.
Huh? So, someone who doesn't believe in God shouldn't try and prove there isn't a God?
No more then you should have to prove there isn't a tea pot orbiting Jupiter just because I say there is. Make a bold claim and yes, you bear the onus of proving it, and not those who question your bold clam.
Of course not. Look at it this way: ever watch any of those ghost-hunting shows that are so popular? All of the people on those shows searching for ghost are fervent believers, therefore any "evidence" they gather is going to be positively biased in favor of ghosts existing. Hear a scratching sound? That not rats in the walls, that's a ghost. See a white blob in your photo? That's a ghost. Whenever you do any sort of research that claims to be even the least bit scientific, you have to have unbiased observers. If pharmaceutical company Merck released a study on how great their pill is, are you likely to believe them, or an independent group that tested the pill's efficacy?
In the case of biblical archaeology, it's hard to find people to do it who aren't believers, simply because if you're not a believer, you wouldn't have any interest in it. But in order to have truly valid research, you have to have neutral observers who don't have a vested interest in a positive outcome.
Speak for yourself! Beyond a shadow of a doubt, a man with references all throughout history very likely existed. Whether or not I am athiest or Christian doesn't change that.
-Tacitus (c. A.D. 56-117), Annals
I mentioned him in a Hub and I dismissed his testimony, he is not a valid witness to the existence of Jesus. Nor are any others you are likely to mention since I researched them all. If you base your belief (atheist or not) that Jesus existed on testimony from a person who never lived at the time Jesus lived or died then that is invalid and faulty reasoning. There is no written testimony from anyone who personally witnessed Jesus, despite the fact that the Bible states that many people witnessed Jesus, there are no first hand accounts by anyone, not even in the Bible that claim, I, so and so, saw Jesus and Jesus did this or that. If you have any I will change my opinion that Jesus did not exist, however, I will not change my statement that Jesus as a person who existed is relevant to modern times except to believers in Jesus' divinity and no one else. He is otherwise insignificant.
Okay? All that you just said, devaluing what I just said, kind of devalues what you say, too. There is nothing to prove he *didn't* exist, either.
You say, there are no valid witnesses? We all know Pompeii got buried by a volcano, but there are no valid witnesses to that, either. Yeah, there is evidence to Pompeii, however, if there wasn't, it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
I find it to be unreal that so many people, across time, would make references to Jesus. Maybe he didn't heal people, or come back to life. Maybe he was doing magic tricks? Maybe we just aren't seeing it in context? Either way, there being a carpenter walking around named Jesus is, to me, more likely than not.
Tacitus' time was later than Christ's time, yes, but Tacitus was around just a few dozen years after Christ. People are alive, today, who bore witness to the Holocaust. They may not have written anything about it, however, they could have told their children (our parents) and their grandchildren (us) all about their experiences. And we don't doubt that they are real, do we? I am sure that Tacitus was in contact with some people who knew (of) Jesus Christ, and around his time, there may well have been some written accounts not yet destroyed.
Additionally, I find it hard to accept that we base our entire calendar system off of an imaginary guy.
"We all know Pompeii got buried by a volcano, but there are no valid witnesses to that, either." In this case we don't need any because it is evident. Why would we need witnesses to the fact that someone died when we find a dead body? "Yeah, there is evidence to Pompeii, however, if there wasn't, it doesn't mean it didn't exist." But if there are no witnesses and no evidence we can't say it existed at all and if something has witnesses and no evidence we can only speculate and find evidence, until then we can't say he actually existed we can only say people believe he existed. But someone as significant as Jesus should have something directly showing that he existed. Does Zeus or Hercules or Apollo or all the characters of Greek Myth exist? Why call them myth?
"They may not have written anything about it, however, they could have told their children (our parents) and their grandchildren (us) all about their experiences. And we don't doubt that they are real, do we?" Again, for things that are real we have more than just witness statements, we have evidence, for things we have no evidence for just witnesses is called hear say. Folk legends are not real but they are stories passed on from person to person. Saying they are real though requires some kind of evidence that he existed not just the mention of "I know someone that knew him" I know a guy that can fly, do you believe me?
"Additionally, I find it hard to accept that we base our entire calendar system off of an imaginary guy." You're going to have to look at the reason for this, it has nothing to do with the actual existence of Jesus it has to do with the Church, not to mention the fact that according to the Bible itself, Jesus was NOT born on December 25th. And the years of his life if you look it up is 7-2 BC/BCE to 30–36 AD/CE, not year zero or year one.... the calendar was set up by the church and isn't changed because who on Earth would allow that?
I have a hub that explains why I don't believe Jesus existed.
"There is nothing to prove he *didn't* exist, either." Well, the onus is on the people to prove that he did, not the people who say there is no evidence that he didn't exist. In the same way, if someone wants to prove that in America, they really use yen not dollars, the onus is on the person to who says it is yen, to prove that it is yen.
"You say, there are no valid witnesses? We all know Pompeii got buried by a volcano, but there are no valid witnesses to that, either. Yeah, there is evidence to Pompeii, however, if there wasn't, it doesn't mean it didn't exist."
You don't read much. do you???
There were plenty of people in the harbor at the time Pompeii erupted. I studied Latin at school and had to read the books written by people at the time so the moment you said that sentence, I could google it.
Well, of course, many people 'across time' make reference to Jesus. They also make reference to Allah, 'the ancestors,' Thor, Krishna, Osiris, etc. How does the fact that many people believe in fables make the fables true?
Yes, I'm sure that there was a character on which Jesus was based. I said that. However, he wasn't the son of God and he didn't do miracles, etc. There is no evidence of someone who existed who had those characteristics.
Tacitus may well have been in touch with people who were Christians. Do you remember the childhood game of Whispers, where you whispered in one person's ear, and then that person passed what you whispered to another person, and 80 people later, the message had completely changed? That's how oral information gets corrupted. The fact that someone said Jesus existed, did miracles, and was the son of God in no way means that is true. It's hearsay. There is a vast difference between that and the Holocaust. We have instruments that permit us to provide evidence, e.g. cameras, film, etc. That was not available at the time of Christ.
Why do you find it difficult that you base your entire calendar on an imaginary guy? The Chinese, Jews, Muslims, and others all base their calendars on imaginary guys.
You don't speak for all atheists. I know LOTS of atheists that believe that Jesus existed.
Good for you! I never said I was speaking for ALL atheists.
"We dont believe Jesus ever existed"
Unless you normally refer to yourself in the first person plural then it was a reasonable assumption to make that you -indeed- were speaking for all atheists. Don't get snippy with me because of your bad word usage.
Yes plural because many of us critical thinkers, who happen to be atheists, and not just the run of the mill nonbelievers, do not believe in Jesus, there are many like myself. Not all atheists are like myself but many atheists are, for example Buddhists are atheists but when I talk about atheists I hope you are smart enough to understand that they are not included in my statement about atheists when I refer to us atheists.
But if you don't like what I say or how I say it you can leave me out of your discussion.
Not to mention I thought we agreed to ignore each other, why are you still acknowledging me? Ignore me, leave me alone, whatever, we will never agree, you've already made it clear you don't like me or think anything I have to say is good and that all I ever do is attack theists, well, I am sorry you don't like that I think your religion is silly and akin to UFO nuts.
I don't know why but that post was hilarious on so many levels to me.
But, out of curiosity, what is a run of the mill non believer? And, what makes you think your critical thinking skills are more sharply honed than those of other people?
Character attack here you come.... because I am not going to accept every silly claim on that I am told without finding out whether or not it's valid, especially if it effects everyone. Not to mention I never said my skills were "better" or sharper than others, I said I use them. Not like the sheep following the the shepard to the dinner table.
I stand warned that you are prepared to attack my character. Ok by me. It won't make your accusations true. But, it will make you look foolish.
Before we cross that bridge though, you do realize that you are not the only person who insists you don't accept silly claims? That reasonable people can disagree on the subject of religion and both be reasonable? If there was one obvious answer don't you think agreement would be a given?
Your comment about sheep is a pitiful attempt to use other people's backs as a stepping stone to an ego driven pedestal. It really doesn't warrant rebuttal. It speaks volumes all by itself.
No, that was me expecting one from you. And as for the rest of your statement, I was correct. Thanks for your opinion.
No joke. Of course you were accusing me of standing ready to attack your character. Wow. That must be an example of your keen thinking skills.
However, please explain how you were right about anything. Pretty much every post I've read of yours here doesn't fit the description of right. By a long shot.
An unjustified attack, I see. Can you give me an example?
Well, for starters, amish furniture isn't anything to brag about.
But, honestly. The comment I first responded to was rife with problems. You basically went through the list with back handed insults toward other groups that don't share your philosophy.
Couldn't respond directly, but considering this "amish furniture isn't anything to brag about" I can deduce two things, one you are a hypocrite and two you are just a troll looking for a fight.... in that case, good bye.
Yes, well I didn't think you'd be able to support any statement you've made with anything other than an emotional response. Not to mention the lack of a sense of humor. I'm not surprised since it happens all of the time with you believers.
". The word "you" can imply (if used incorrectly) that the author knows more than the reader and sometimes be condescending and offensive." - http://voices.yahoo.com/when-writing-wo … 41328.html
It's like saying "you people" as in 'you cracker ass nigga"
True, however art black's penchant for using the term ' us atheists' implies he wants the mice in his pockets to be recognized.
1. I don't remember ever speaking to you directly... maybe one of your puppets? Or maybe you just weren't that memorable.
2. I assure you my critical thinking skills are just fine.
3. Atheism has nothing to do with believing Jesus existed. Nothing. Maybe your critical thinking skills are off?
4. So Buddhists aren't included in your definition of Atheist? So basically by atheist you mean non-Christian? Got Christianity issues much?
5. As stated above I don't remember ever speaking to you directly... so liking you or not liking you really isn't an issue. Besides a very few people on these forums I really don't like or dislike anyone on here. These conversations are a way to kill time for me... they generally aren't important enough in my life to form personal opinions on posters.
6. So you aren't speaking for every atheist... just the smart ones with good critical thinking skills that just happen to think exactly like you? Ok... gotcha. Just like to say in closing that the atheists that I know are among the most intelligent and well-read religious scholars in my area. (My faith tends to draw the intellectual elites... especially those who like debate) Three are college professors (One is a comparative theology professor) and several more hold Doctorates. I guess their critical thinking skills must be WAY off.
1. So your statement "You don't speak for all atheists" wasn't directed at me? Oh, well, must be hubpages mistake because it told me your response was directed towards me.
2. If you say so.
3. This is true, but when people claim Jesus in the sense of his divinity "Most of us Atheists" have looked into his validity as a historical figure of significance. So how does that mean my critical thinking skills are off?
4. No, when I refer to "us atheists" I refer to the argument at hand and the atheists in question. And Christianity may be the main issue because they are always violating someones rights. But to answer your question I argue with Muslims and Mormons and Hindus as well.
5. Well, blame hubpages, and you spent enough time on here for me to think otherwise about their importance to you.
6. The answer to this question is also, no, but this is your prejudiced of me and my beliefs in general, I don't believe I am the smartest person around I just don't see any convincing statements or evidence to make me think that believers are.... stable, and you help prove that to me every time you speak. Being an expert and a believer in a scholarly position doesn't make ones critical thinking skills relevant to their status as experts in a particular field. But your opinion is noted.
4) Mormons are Christians, since they believe in Christ. But your point was still made despite the ignorance.
I realize Mormons are Christians, but depending on the context and the Christian you converse with this idea is debateable. And thanks for thinking ignorance for every little object of contention, much appreciated... you guys often accuse Atheists of being the attacker yet all I see is being attacked for not believing this or that and using statements of groups of people such as myself as being the mode of attack rather than challenging the statement. Interesting that you (the ones doing thee attacking) would choose to attack my character rather than my statement of belief.
I don't know which "you guys" you are referring to, but I personally accuse everyone of "being the attacker", or a hypocrite, not just atheists. Because either way we look at it, we're all pretty much guilty of the same thing here. So, let's stop acting innocent. I'm guilty of it. So are you.
My attacks are ussually in direct response to a direct atack not a response to all people who share the opinion of the attacker. I am not imposing any sort of injustice on anyone with the statements I have made, I call it like I see it. Some people will attack me for it, but i have never attacked someone without just cause. I tend not to attack a persons character unless they directly attack mine. To attack someone's character, rather than what they are claiming, is a cowardly act.
I have to agree with Radman. I am legally blind and hard of hearing. Twice I've been nearly run over by an ambulance because I did not hear it coming, and like so many visually impaired people, sheer hubris kept me from getting a white cane for six years. I've been in situations where I did not even know I was in danger because I could not see. When I was a Christian, the Church told me that God watches over me because he has a purpose for me. Yet, even then I would wonder about people with perfect vision and hearing who were run over by cars; those people who were just standing outside their church and were killed when a car backed into them; the four girls who died when their church was bombed in Birmingham—didn't God have a purpose for their lives—and who the hell am I that I should be so arrogant to think God has a purpose for me and not for them?
Maybe there is "something out there," but it certainly isn't the all knowing all loving god we hear about in Church.
I have had the above 2 thoughts many, many times. I believe them both to have extreme merit. In fact, I have been unable to find a logical way to refute them.
That's because there is no logical way to refute them. Unfortunately most people can't see this because they lack the required critical thinking skills.
Those are two of the many thoughts I had as a kid that helped me become an atheist.
So Christians aren't perfect. Nothing could be truer. Well, if being a Christian isn't going to make a difference, if Christians are just like everybody else then why bother?
I've been told that Church is a hospital for the sick not a museum for saints. How apt. Of course, there are people laid up in the hospital sick with stuff they didn't have when they went in.
god forbid that they should do something so socialist as to give their money to the poor.
G.O.D. - Gold, Oil and Diamonds—in this trinity we trust.
Hey art black. I think that might be six reasons why you shouldn't expect your free atheist hug today.
Although that is a "direct attack", I probably agree. But... I'm wondering what the sixth reason is...
Here's XOX for my atheist friends and foes ! ..........:-}
I don't know about any of that ??? I was just commenting about what I read when I read the scriptures. And was agreeing with that particular comment Rhonda made.
That's a whole other forum.
Yes. The spreading of the gospel throughout the earth has increased. I never stated that it wouldn't be rejected. But there are those who are hearing the PURE gospel, believing, and receiving miracles in others parts of our planet that haven't before while many are moving further from the truth (including those who call themselves Christians but don't walk in love).
Please don't disregard my whole point.
As you can see, I only 'disregarded' one of your three paragraphs in your original 'point.'
(Are you not diregarding my point that Christianity is *not* being heard--heard, yes, listened to? No-- throughout the world, by flat out telling me I'm wrong?)
The way I see it is that "true gospel" comes from GOD. Not man, not ministers, not missionary trips, not the internet, not Christians, not even you. Someone's relationship with gods, religions, beliefs is very PERSONAL, and you have NO WAY of knowing how many people have heard the "true gospel" unless and until you have experienced those people's experiences first-hand (which, you cannot, so, you do not).
My mother once told me there is "no point in arguing with Christians." Though that is a huge blanket statement on a huge group of people, I'm starting to see that there is some basis to it.
Someone on this thread mentioned that "without the ability to accept that you don't know everything, you don't know anything" I don't have the motivation to find the original post, but that struck me as profound truth.
So, please, I will continue to undermine your statement that you somehow know everything people who have heard and responded to the Christian gospel, and whether that is really truth or not.
The quoted statement goes both ways.
I didn't come on here to argue... but to listen & share on an open forum.
I didn't say that I know everything. I do not and will not claim to. I'm just sharing what I do know; I follow it.
My personal experience of being miraculously healed as a child and my personal relationship with God holds dear to me and I share with others. If people don't agree, fine. I'm not the one to judge. & Not everybody in my family is a believer. I don't judge them or walk around preaching to them all the time. I just love them...and same goes with others too...even you. But, I will not be ashamed to tell another person what I believe, esp. if someone else brings it up. I'm out.
That's a very good point. A personal experience that can not be shared by others. Nobody can experience you experience. You know it's real even though nobody else could 'mind-meld' with your consciousness.
I used to think that those mediators were just B'S'ing about the feeling of peace and 'oneness' because I could never 'do it'. I always thought that my mind wandered to much with endless self-talk - or just go to sleep. Now I know that although I'm not the Dali Lama in meditation - because I'm not doing the buddhist way doesn't mean I'm not 'doing it. Hiking in the wood, watching the humming birds or butterflies and mountain wildflowers - I think is just 'goofing off', when I really need it to be content.
Today, on a cliff-hugging tree branch 15 feet away from me was a Peregrine Falcon, but as I was digging for my camera - flew off. took an out-of-focus picture below (sigh!!! that camera is supposed to be auto-focus!!!!)
I live right next to the Coronado National park
Personally, I think it is a matter of perspective, and therefore personal for each individual.
If you do not perceive god a certain way, or not at all, does not make that person's perception invalid - just personal.
It is not something that can be readily exported or accepted from person to person, or population to population, if their inner spirituality tells them to stick to their guns, or gut, instincts, spirit, etc.
The thing about Christianity I do not care for is that in order for one to follow Jesus, you must abandon your own personal perceptions of god, and dis-empower yourself in order to accept Jesus as your savior and god.
What about folks who refuse to accept Jesus as the Way and The Truth?
Better, what about folks that KNOW Jesus isn't the Way or The Truth, and therefore from their point of view lays on another spiritual path?
For instance, from my point of view Jesus isn't God.
From my point of view, god is something more cosmic than Jesus or Christianity, and open to personal interpretation.
In short, I personally know there is a "god", but from my point of view has very little to do with Christianity or any organized religion(s).
Nicely put, thank you Eugene. It speaks for me a lot, too. It takes a lot of good will, kindness, patience, love, to allow my neighbour to disagree with me and my point of view, without labeling him/her an enemy. I have a feeling this what Paul was talking about in that passage about faith, hope and charity.
As you will know by now, I do not consider myself christian. Such a god as put over by christians is too small and constricted for me. Every bit of extra knowledge which comes into my life can only enhance my sense of awe and wonder at the intricacy of our world; how everything seems to fit together and work in mysterious ways. Science is the door which brings this extra knowledge to me. Minds much greater than mine have taken the trouble to apply strict scientific principles in finding out such principles and laws. Then individuals with literary expertise have translated that knowledge into a form which I can understand. I say a big Thank You to every honest scientist.
The possibility of a "mind" that has designed and set this in motion..... yes, I can lean towards that possibility. It's nature? I cannot give you a clue... it's out of this world, undoubtedly.
The judgmental "God" I have no time for, personally, but if someone else has a need to believe such a thing, so be it..... so long as they don't start using that God to judge me in a sneaky sort of way.
peregrine falcons at Coronado National Park Audio
by Brittany Williams3 years ago
Atheism only means the lack of a belief in God. Why is it so hard for Christians to realize that we dismiss their religion for the same reasons that they dismiss all other religions? It doesn't make us horrible people,...
by Claire Evans5 years ago
It's easy to deconvert to atheism because they are disappointed, hurt or because they have lost their faith due to God making sense. It's harder to suddenly make a rational atheists convert to Christianity, which...
by secularist106 years ago
How many atheists and agnostics are there really in America, or in the world?The Pew Forum indicates that about 16% of Americans are "unaffiliated," which includes 3 groups:Atheist: 1.6%Agnostic: 2.4%Nothing...
by Tony Lawrence6 years ago
I think not.Some say that they just aren't sure, but they figure "I'm a good person, so if there is, I'm fine". I'd say that person is actually a theist.Others say they don't know and don't care. They never...
by il Scettico3 years ago
Many believe Atheism is not a religion because it does not follow traditional beliefs. Others believe it is a religion because it has to do with existentialism. What do you think?
by Claire Evans3 months ago
This topic is old, I know, but I'd like to ask it anyway. Many Christians will ask an atheist, "Why are you here if you don't believe God (should it be a Christian thread)?" Some will answer,...
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