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Believers Have to Prove the Existence of God

  1. jainismus profile image79
    jainismusposted 4 years ago

    Many believers like to say that Atheists should prove that there is no God. Believers should know that existence has to be proved, not the non-existence.

    If a thing exists, it is possible to prove its existence. So believers should prove the existence of God if he exists. But if they want to do it, they have to take shelter of science..............

    1. kathleenkat profile image90
      kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If a tree falls in the woods, and makes a sound which only you hear, how can you prove to someone else that it happened?

      That is where belief lies with many people. They draw conclusions through their own personal experiences; experiences and conclusions that they could not possibly fully share with another individual. Meaning and feeling are lost within words and pictures. There is no way to truly convey your experience, from your point of view, to others. It is left to the interpretation of the listener. We are all different, afterall. That is why those who believe in God cannot prove it to anyone else. You have to find these kinds of answers for yourself. Nobody else can do that for you.

      1. ihayaydin profile image60
        ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        kathleenkat, ı agree with you. God doesnt need to prove himself to people. God has given us an innate capacity to believe him. all alive creatures workship for God. only human being is disobedient. as a proof,what do they want to see. everything in universe is in excellent design and harmony. everyday, a new kind of  live being or thing is being discovered, today they dont believe maybe for them there is no proof to believe, suppose that  after you die, the science and technology will advance so much that it will make people believe god with discovery.  although non believers deny God's existence,they have conflict  in their mind

        1. Trichakra profile image60
          Trichakraposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Totally agree with you. God doesn't need to prove himself to people who don't believe.

      2. SOE profile image90
        SOEposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @Kathleenkat
        1. You could take a picture or video of the tree falling. We all have cell phones now with cameras anyways.

        2. If you don't have one of these nifty, portable evidence gathering devices, return later with a camera. Sure the tree has already fallen, but you could take a picture of that tree, and the surrounding trees, to prove that it did indeed, at one time fall.

        3. Thanks to the benefits the scientific method has brought us, there is such a wonderful thing such as testing the same circumstance more than once and analyzing the results to produce a conclusion. We can cause other trees to fall in the same fashion to provide proof that the tree in question, also at one time did fall.
        3A. It's part of this idea, that we as a society are able to thoroughly conclude together that tree's do not grow sideways, parallel to the ground, or with the trunks already uprooted or broken, thus not even necessitating further research on the topic, since this is well documented by now.

        4. You could document the effects brought to the surrounding environment, shortly after the fall to determine the effects the tree had when upright, and some time after the fall to conversely document the change which the falling of the tree has brought. For example, Bird's Nests in the fallen tree is a good sign of evidence, since birds commonly build their nests in the upper reaches of a canopy, with further information garnered by the current season and what type of bird it was. Vines that grew into the tree bark prior to its fall and still exist shortly afterwards. Vines grow in specific ways that serve as secondary evidence as well. Then there's things like Moss, surrounding foliage, a hole in the canopy that other tree's branches haven't filled in yet, condition of the bark, leaves and tree in general, analyzed as it dies off, any small critters or plants potentially squashed by the falling of the tree, the indent the tree left in the ground, the debris thrown by the impact, i could go on and on and on.

        It's science like this that also brings us the answers to these questions:
        How do we quantify a substance we cant see? (Air)
        How do we know meteorites impacted the moon when we've never seen it happen?
        How do we know you exist when nobody heard you type up that paragraph?
        How do we know gravity exists when it is even more corporeal than air?
        How do we know a storm is developing before it happens?
        How do we know any crime was ever committed without there being a camera and multiple witnesses?
        And so on...
        And so forth...

        See problem?

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          This is my take on what you have shared SOE...

          Essentially, the problem, does not lie with the evidence, because as you say,

          How do we quantify a substance we cant see? (Air)
          How do we know meteorites impacted the moon when we've never seen it happen?

          Howso? There are some things science can prove; other things science speculates upon, based on the available information. When information is lacking, then the structures in conclusion are based on those factors that are tangible/available/comprehendible; when the information is within reach; and all of the factors plausible and exhausted, have been tested, then the premise/hypothesis has the foundational proof(s) necessary to become factual evidence. However, if and when new evidence becomes available, or is discovered, the entire premise falls back into the state of a hypothesis.

          With GOD, those of us who have the evidence of HIS EXISTENCE do so, because we have opened our heart(s) and mind(s) to the possibility that HE IS; as a confirmation of this hope, HE ENTERS into the equation the evidence of things hoped for. You see, HE REQUIRES FAITH from us.

          The Bible tells us, "without faith you cannot please GOD...". (Hebrews 11:6)

          For this reason: pertaining to proof that GOD EXISTS...

          Some individuals think GOD MUST PROVE HIMSELF in order to be real to them. But GOD IS GOD; and by HIS STANDARD, HE WILL NOT REVEAL HIMSELF to those who require EVIDENCE of HIS EXISTENCE. The very thought that a person would consider him/herself deserving of such evidence is sheer derision of HIS SOVEREIGNTY.

          The problem lies with the individual(s) taking in the information, whether or not they choose to accept or reject that evidence. GOD IS. There is no need for HIM to prove HIMSELF.

          The entire platform of rebellion against GOD, in the Garden of Eden was such, that Adam disrespected HIM, HIS WORD and HIS FAITHFULNESS. Eve believed the lie about GOD, that GOD was withholding something from her, just as the serpent said... The doubt that GOD WAS GOOD and WORTHY of Adam and Eve's trust was the severing at the root of relationship between GOD and HIS Creation.

          Doubt, therefore, is the root of all separation from GOD. Do you see it? The trunk of this organism (because doubt/rebellion/separation from GOD are organisms that feed into spiritual death) is pride. The branches are carnal inclinations. The leaves are sin. The fruit is death.

          Relationship with GOD is manifest in faith, "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen..." (Hebrews 11:1) There is no way to prove that relationship exists to anyone else, since GOD IS SPIRIT and as Superior to man as man is to an amoeba, if not moreso.... As a SPIRIT, tangibility as an essence becomes generally impossible. However, to that seeking heart, as A SPIRIT, HIS POWER to permeate the human soul, and reach into the spirit, generates, not only an awareness of HIM, but an understanding that transcends the need for proof.

          People involved in the occult understand this type of transcendental connection because the powers of darkness counterfeit GOD'S SPIRITUAL NATURE whenever they are invited into a circumstance. However, the difference between GOD'S SPIRIT and the powers of darkness is the difference between HOLINESS and ungodliness.

          There is so much more that could be said, but there has been enough said to bring awareness to anyone who desires RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, to be able to do so... in humility, not pride...", because GOD WILL RESPOND TO ANY/EVERY heart that seeks HIM in spirit and in truth; and, believe me HE KNOWS the difference.

          You may not agree, but this is the answer to the problem.

          GOD BLESS you, SOE.

          1. SOE profile image90
            SOEposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Woah there, I think you misunderstand my argument.

            This is all I was arguing: "If a tree falls in the woods, and makes a sound which only you hear, how can you prove to someone else that it happened?"

            I just find that implication that you cant prove a tree fell to be ridiculous on any level of conscious thought.

            Besides, I learned arguing about religion was a waste of my time when I was 5.

            <3, ☮ & chicken grease.

            1. EmVeeT profile image80
              EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You said, " I learned arguing about religion was a waste of my time when I was 5."

              Of course. Forgive me.

              GOD BLESS you.
              smile

          2. yeshuaslion profile image59
            yeshuaslionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            AMEN!

            1. yeshuaslion profile image59
              yeshuaslionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I'm talking to you (EmVeet)

        2. kathleenkat profile image90
          kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          SOE,

          Do you not understand the concept of an analogy? It was my assumption that on a site made up of writers, that everyone would know. Fair enough; I'll explain:

          An analogy is a way assign meaning by comparing the attributes of one thing to another. I am sure you could find a much more concrete definition on Google.


          The point I am trying to convey with the "tree" analogy was that there are things in life that you simply cannot prove. Go and find a better example that isn't effected by the invention of cameras, if you'd like. Belief, specifically religious beliefs, are one of those things you simply cannot prove (or subsequently disprove).

          And no, I don't "see the problem" with people believing in whatever they wish to believe in, and not proving it.

          1. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I don't think many people do have a problem with people believing what they wish... The problem is the enforcement of those illogical beliefs on others.

            If I wanted to pass a government policy I thought of I would have to prove it's better for people in general and demonstrate why. On the other hand religious policies pass based on nothing but faith, it's a big a double standard, that's the problem.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Are you speaking of a particular law that was passed?

              1. Josak profile image60
                Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                There are plenty of them but no id didn't have a particular one in mind.

          2. SOE profile image90
            SOEposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I know what an analogy is, and just because it is an analogy, does not somehow preclude it from having to make sense, unless your point was to mock religion by comparing it to such a silly idea such as not being able to prove that a tree fell, which is also an outright lie, which I would have to say is mighty offensive of you comparing religion to the attributes of a lie in an analogy, and mighty backhanded considering you then try to fight on the side that religion is real.

            No, I'm not going to find a better example to fix your crappy and offensive analogy, that's your job. You don't get to piggy back on my intellect so you can go "Yeah! That's what I meant to say!!1one" after screwing up yourself, just because I pointed out the massive flaw of your reply.

            -_-

            Hmph.. Good day, madame...

            1. kathleenkat profile image90
              kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I am not trying to fight on any side.

              Religion is as real as anything to those who partake in it. If they felt it was fake, would they believe in it? Why should you try to point out how 'fake' it is by bastardizing my analogy? How about this: Try to prove to someone else that you had a headache last week.

              I am sorry my definition of an analogy is so offensive to you. Perhaps you should grow a spine? (Also an analogy).

              Good day, sir.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The problem with analogies that make comparisons between fact and belief is that one cannot really be explained by invoking the other as support.

                When attempting to create an analogy for an extraordinary belief, one must invoke another extraordinary belief for comparison, just as one would invoke a fact to support a fact.

                So, in your example above, it might make more sense to ask to prove to someone else that they flapped their arms and flew like a bird last week.

              2. SOE profile image90
                SOEposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @kathleenkat
                1. I didn't bastardize anything. Your "analogy" was chock full of fail. I just called you on it.
                2. "Grow a spine" is an Idiom, not an Analogy.
                3. You fail at english.
                4. @Headaches: CAT & MRI scans are useful tools for this, not to mention tumors, cancer and a wide variety of other diseases and conditions can be discovered as evidence of headaches. Also, headaches also have the ability to be both figuratively and literally, all in your head. Are you sure you're trying to conflate these two concepts after your last debacle?
                5. It's your fallacies with the basic principles of logic, language, science and empirical evidence I find so offensive.
                6. Keep going. This has also become thoroughly entertaining.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What we'll see in response to that is a myriad of childish excuses from believers personal experiences to the violation of physical laws to an innate capacity to believe to "The Bible says..." and a host of other nonsensical and extraordinary explanations that would have us rolling in the aisles in laughter, until we realize they're actually serious.

    3. twosheds1 profile image60
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well, they don't have to, but if they want doubters to believe, then they'd better to be able to back up their claims.

      1. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Exaclty! If you are asserting something then you must be able to prove it or why should anyone believe you? It doesn't make sense.

      2. 61
        C L Davisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You are so right it doesn't make sense to our logical mind. It Takes faith to believe in God. It's like a little boy on the top of a ten story building  and his dad is down below telling him to jump, and he does believing his dad will catch him, and he does. So the little boy runs to tell his best friend how he jumped and his dad caught him. And his friend says right: what a great imagination. but you will never convince that little boy that he didn't jump and that his dad didn't caught him and the only proof that he has is the fact that he is alive and unhurt. He can't prove it because it's his personal experience and he has no scientific evidence to prove it but he knows it happened because it happened to him. Same with believers. And I shouldn't dislike you because you don't believe me you have a right to accept or reject.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          LOL! Ten story building? Alive and unhurt? Yes, that is quite the imagination. lol

    4. rmullin profile image59
      rmullinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, no. Neither atheists nor theists are compelled to prove that that their beliefs are true. This is because belief and knowledge are separate and distinct concepts. You are of course compelled to prove what you know, but you are not compelled to prove what you believe. You do not necessarily know what it is you believe but you must believe what you know. By the way I’m an atheist and I do believe that you’re beliefs should at least be consistent with what you know—not equivalent but consistent!

      1. heatblast92 profile image83
        heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Your beliefs drive your actions. To impose one's beliefs on others would require a high degree of knowing what one believes to be true, for you would not otherwise be motivated to do as such, and to know what one believes to be true would in turn behoove him or her to prove its truth.

        1. 0
          Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You can't know that we you believe is true, though you can believe that you know it. Even then, you don't necessarily possess the motivation to prove it.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Has someone been pressuring non-Christians to become Christians?  I don't mean having a conversation like what is going on here.  It does sound like someone(s) has been pressured.

            1. 59
              knowledgeismightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Ever met Jehova's Witnesses? In my case, I did and so yes, there are Christians pressuring non-Christians (or people with different beliefs, even Christians) to become Christians.

              1. kathleenkat profile image90
                kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I don't answer the door for these people. But they sometimes leave free literature. At this moment, a Book of Mormon is used to prop my monitor forward.

                Point is, if you don't listen to them, there isn't forcing. They go away after a while. They aren't ignorant when it is clear that a person doesn't want to listen to them. I understand that they are doing it with good intentions so it is a lot less annoying than those Student Painter programs, that are just bugging you for money.

              2. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians and have never been considered so.  They've learned to say that they are to encourage dialog.   http://www.christianpost.com/news/cults … t-3-61788/

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Hey - maybe you can give us a list of who you judge to be "real" Christians? I know Catholics, Mormons and now JWs are not.

                  Are there any real Christians?

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Hi Mark!  Christians believe in the virgin birth, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; that Jesus is God and the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that.  Catholocism is considered a Christian religion because of their belief in Jesus Christ.  I don't know a lot about Mormonism.  I just looked it up and saw "Jesus was once a man on another planet?????"  http://carm.org/is-mormonism-cult      There are baptists, methodists, catholics, pentecostals, etc., who attend church or do other things and consider themselves Christians.  It is a social function for many people.

                2. 59
                  knowledgeismightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:C … _movements
                  for new religious movements. Again this is just not accepting facts. You'd wonder what's called Christianity. For me it doesn't matter. But now because they distinct from mainstream they are not Christians, and because they knock at your door and pressuring you. There are so many Christian movements you wouldn't find the real path at all. It's just impossible. You'll accept what you get before even know much about it. As do many people around the world.

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Just because someone says it doesn't make it so.  I could wear surgical greens and stand in the operating room.  It does not make me a surgeon.  Many people sitting in church are there because it is a family tradition to go or they wered invited or it's a way to me people or any number of reasons.  Back during segregation it was a place that Black men could have status as a "deacon" or "elder", etc.  Many knew nothing whatsoever about the Bible but they had status.

            2. 0
              Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Hmm?

              I''m confused as to how your question remotely relates to this:

    5. Paul K Francis profile image81
      Paul K Francisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Believers do not have to prove anything. Non believers do not have to prove anything. And thats a fact. But I can't prove it.

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes you can Paul!  It only becomes an issue when someone raises it.  If no one raises the issue, no one has the need to respond.  I think I know what I'm talking about ... do I?

    6. 0
      Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Factual claims require evidence, no other sort.

    7. Iamsam profile image65
      Iamsamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

      You need to first believe that the wind exists.  Than only you can feel it and experience it.  Even though you are experiencing it in your everyday life you are not willing to believe it.

      God is just like that.  If you are not believing, then it is a waste of time to prove that there God exists.  You need to first believe and step out to feel God.  Experience God. You are hearing God within you.  Your spirit is telling you that there is a God.

      Anyway, one day is coming when you realize that God exists.  But it will be too late....

      It is better for you to experience God before it is too late...

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It's a shortsighted thing to believe that it could ever be too late. There is no belief involved, if God exists. If God exists it is a simple fact. Is anyone guilty, if a fact has not been presented to them? If so, what are they guilty of? Is denying a belief a grievance of cosmic proportions?

        You compare it to the wind, but is that a fair comparison? Can you blame a deaf person for not enjoying music? They may accept the fact that music exists.  But only because they might feel the vibrations from the music when played loudly. They see the musicians actively working with their instruments. There is no belief involved.

        Do we judge the blind guilty because they can't see? Their lack of sight is not a transgression against the cosmos. It is simply an unfortunate handicap they must learn to live with.

        As long as belief is belief, it is never too late. I don't even think knowledge would represent a line in the sand. Not in this existence. Simply because that isn't the way this reality works. And, if there is a God, this reality is simply an extension of a greater whole we already exist in. If an agoraphobic never leaves their house and never has contact with the outside world; does the world cease to exist?

      2. twosheds1 profile image60
        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        They said DON'T do the brown acid! big_smile

      3. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        That's odd, every weather report I've ever seen will tell us the direction and speed of any wind blowing on any given day.



        Completely nonsensical. You can believe anything you want but that doesn't make it true. The wind is something that is not required to believe because it exists.



        Then, God is nonsensical.



        Spirits haven't been shown to exist, hence it can't say anything to anyone.



        LOL!

      4. unitify profile image78
        unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        They believe in the wind that it is the wind.  But how can they prove it is the wind?  Will they quote something they read?  Does the wind tell them, "I am the wind."  He who has ears let them hear."

    8. grinnin1 profile image83
      grinnin1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It is impossible to prove the existence of God or the non existence of God. Science cannot prove it, man cannot prove it. Belief has to be a component. We only have access to a tiny piece of the knowledge and understanding of God and to  think that we could begin to prove or disprove His existense only shows how truly small  and ego driven we are.  He leaves it is up to us and he gave us the free will to believe or to not believe based on our understanding. But He tells us that He will give us understanding if we ask Him for it..

      "I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one"
      - Albert Einstein

      1. Zubair Ahmed profile image80
        Zubair Ahmedposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I like you take on this - as you can see from the many response there are many who do not believe and their are those who believe - no need to fight like kid's - I say if you believe good on you, and if you don't believe good on you too, but next time go on thread that is not discussing religion but something else that way we do not need to act childish.  As you stated the father of many sciences has already stated we humans have not evolved to the level at which we can know everything that there is to know.  God is one of those things that we can not know unless we are willing to believe.  If he stands in front of those that do not believe they will still not believe it is in the nature of some humans to deny.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It would be all fine and well if people believed in private, Ahmed. However, that is not the case. When you have Islam slamming planes into buildings and stoning women to death for being in public without a man; Jews forcing settlements on Palestinians in the name of Judaism; the Catholic Church telling people AIDS is bad and condoms are worse - even lying to people that condoms spread AIDS - or influential Christian's like Jerry Falwell standing outside of a funeral of an American soldier saying that the soldier died because God is cursing America for homosexuality and holding signs that say "Thank God For IED'S" then it is no longer a private matter. Humans need to start standing up and fighting against religious ignorance and tyranny before it destroys the world, even if it is on an internet forum.

      2. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated." - Einstein

    9. oceansnsunsets profile image87
      oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You are applying materialistic ideas, and a set of "rules" to prove something that is immaterial exists.  That doesn't make sense. 

      Its a physicalistic way of thinking.  That also happens to rule things out in advance, and claims a "win."

    10. Trish303 profile image14
      Trish303posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Why? I believe that is all that matters. If you do not then that is your choice and I respect it but it is not my job to prove anything, because if you do not want to believe in god then nothing will make you.

    11. ARSHAD MAJID profile image80
      ARSHAD MAJIDposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The very basic fact that there is so much that cannot be proved --is enough proof of the existence of God.

    12. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If everybody had to prove that which they believed ....     we would ALL be found lacking!!!!!!!

    13. A.Villarasa profile image79
      A.Villarasaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @jainismus:

      You are right to say that if a "thing" exist, it should and could be proven that "it" does in fact exist. But God is not an "it",.... a   word  basically that refers to something with some kind of physical form.

      God as perceived by believers did not  have a physical  form until the Nazarene came into being, and claimed that indeed he was one with the 'father".

      Now folks can debate wether  this claim (as a historical fact)  by Jesus Christ, should be taken literraly, allegorically or  metaphorically. It is an act of faith by all Christians that indeed, the Nazarene was"God" made flesh.

    14. unitify profile image78
      unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Prove Jesus Christ did not exist.  Prove he was not God. Prove he was not crucified.  Prove that He did not rise again.  Prove without a shadow of a doubt and do it with physical evidence.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Have you ever met him in the Flesh...Talked to him face to face? Emailed him, FB'd him...anything other than hearing him speak to you in your mind? or "feeling" his presence?

      2. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        There is very little proof that Jesus actually existed but personally I do believe that a man named Jesus did exist. Of course he was not the son of a God, that is preposterous. What is more, Jesus is the most wicked man in the Bible. Really, a prophet of immorality.

        1. A.Villarasa profile image79
          A.Villarasaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @Brian:

          You must be reading the Bible according to St. Lucifer.

    15. Zubair Ahmed profile image80
      Zubair Ahmedposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No one said - science and religion don't go hand-in-hand.  In fact the more science you do the more you realise that life just cannot come into existence.    In my line of work (Science, IT and Engineering) nothing is ever done without first producing a design.  How can I accept that all this complex life just appeared without a reason or cause.

      Since you think otherwise - how do you think you came into being?

      1. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Believers might not say that, but many others would.



        And yet, the more science accomplished, the more scientists understand life did in fact come into existence on it's own.



        Because, you actually don't know anything about science, despite your claims of it being your line of work.



        Not by design or magical, invisible, super being hand waving.

      2. heatblast92 profile image83
        heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        By sheer chance, the toss of a die with every atom spewed out of the Big Bang.

        If all life as we know it now to be is based on a single design, then it's not a particularly remarkable one, is it? Considering the flaws that all life have suffered from, that is.

        It kinda contradicts with the idea of free will to assume that everything exists for a reason, doesn't it?

    16. unitify profile image78
      unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "Many believers like to say that Atheists should prove that there is no God." (I guess I am not one of the, "many" you speak of.) I am not only a, "Believer" I am a knower.  And I expect nothing of an atheist such as yourself.) Believers should know that existence has to be proved, not the non-existence. (With all due respect, who are you to tell us, "Believers" what we should know. Who died and made you boss? And what makes you an expert on proof?)

      If a thing exists, it is possible to prove its existence. (Can you prove that I love you? My love for you exist, so prove it if you can and do it scientifically.) So believers should prove the existence of God if he exists. But if they want to do it, they have to take shelter of science.............

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I love it unitify!

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You are the one that has to prove this love as you are the one asserting that it exists. I for one don't believe you.

          Go! Prove your love! wink

          1. A Thousand Words profile image81
            A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            People do love to throw around the word "love," ay? That usually only means, "hey I might say a prayer for you. Otherwise, I don't actually want to be bothered. But I get this warm feeling inside for people in general, so that includes you!! That's got to mean I love you, right? Even though I probably won't ever to be able to demonstrate it, you should take my word for it."

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Pretty sure it's feelings for me are on the cool side. lol

          2. unitify profile image78
            unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I live my life for christ.  I am not perfect and I am not stupid.  I don't ask you to justify nor do I have to prove anything especially to someone that really doesn't want to know.  As I said before.  I would gladly talk to you of what I know but what would be the point if in your heart of hearts you don't really want to know.  It appears that all you really want to do is argue a point in order to prove your convictions to yourself.  I know all to well that life is so short.  I choose to take one day at a time, appreciate and love the people in my life and stay open to what people have to say.  Everyone has their own story. We are all in this boat together.  Look at me.  I am the one at the end of the boat.  I wave to you with a smile in my face, know this my be the only time I will ever see you in my lifetime.  Know that I love you and know you are special.  We all are.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How funny - you are the one arguing - now prove you love me.

          3. unitify profile image78
            unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You've missed my point all together.  I justify myself to Christ only.  You, I pray for.  Much love.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              No - that was not your point at all. If it was - you expressed yourself really, really badly because this is what you actually said:


              As I said - I don't believe you. I hope the praying makes you feel better. wink

              1. unitify profile image78
                unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                My intent is not to make me feel better.  And again, you have a right to believe or not believe whatever makes your heart content.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd - that is the only possible outcome. Hope it makes ya feel better.

          4. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hi, Mark!  Love ya! big_smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You I believe. big_smile A random sock puppet hiding behind a user name and making pronouncements to defend it's irrational belief? Not so much. lol

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Understood.   I have no trouble revealing myself as a real human being with a name around these parts.  I like to think I practice a little integrity in regard to my beliefs.  Shoot, I like to think I practice integrity in every area of my life.  Pity that hasn't made me rich yet...lol

                Hope you're still healing well, my friend.  smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Getting there. Broken ribs are taking a tad longer than I would have hoped. Oh well..... big_smile

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You're breathing okay, yes?  They didn't do any damage to your lungs?

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes. Thank Baby Jesus for small mercies. big_smile

      2. 62
        Khalednusseibehposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa There is only One God (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.]

      3. A.Villarasa profile image79
        A.Villarasaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        God does not have to prove that he exists so why would I want to prove that he exists....just to be blasted by  echolalic  talking points by atheists  that they have  heard or read from the likes of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. I wish  atheists on HubPages would and could be a lot more original  in their debating points, but the reality is , they are just mouthing off  the none  too lucid, luminous and levitating arguments from these two rabid polemicists for atheism.

      4. Ceegen profile image85
        Ceegenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "I think, therefore I am." - René Descartes.

        "And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you." - Exodus chapter 3, verse 14.

        God thinks, therefore God is...

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The Exodus and Moses are a myth.

          Therefore god isn't. wink

          1. Ceegen profile image85
            Ceegenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            If you say so.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well - to be fair - I am just going along with accepted current theological and archeological thinking. Glad you accepted it so readily.

              1. Ceegen profile image85
                Ceegenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The Gulf of Aqaba is the Red Sea crossing site.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Nonsense. Please don't bother sending me the fake chariot wheel. lol

                  1. Ceegen profile image85
                    Ceegenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you." - Acts 13:41

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Ah - threats. Good for you. Got no ability to reason? Quote some biblical drivel - then you can call people names and claim it was god wot seddit. 

                      I would be more impressed with some reasonable argument and dscussion that the Moses myth is real instead of this nonsense. Please don't quote the majik book at me again. Thanks.

      5. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        If God apeared to me...  I couldn't prove it.
        Even If I took a picture ...   everyone would say that I faked it.
        If God apeared before 100,ooo people. It would be said to have been a mass halusination.

        The only proof of his existance that you would accept is for YOU to have the experience.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Amen Jerami!

        2. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          That is a lot of "IF"s Jerami. There is no proof because he does not exist. Weird you don't understand that. wink

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well ...  Lets try this one step at a time,    What kind of proof would it take to prove to you that there is some kind of higher power. Forget for the time being, any and all descriptions that you have heard concerning what this entity is.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Anything, Jerami - anything real. If this "higher power" is real - surely it knows what would satisfy me.

              I have no reason to believe in majikal "higher planes of existence" no. Odd - you think that the existence of this is the same as the non-existence of it? Just as likely? Sounds like the typical, "You can't prove it is not true," arguments you guys use to support your imaginary friend.

              I have every reason to doubt your claim - yes. Because that s all it is - your claim. You have no reason to believe in the existence of beings in an invisible, un-testable, irrational, impossible plane of existence - none.

              This argument is completely without logic. By the same token - I can claim an infinite number of possibilities that are invisible, untestable, impossible - they are just as worth as your assertion - i.e. - not at all. Therefore the Arcurian Megaturd Theory is just as likely as your "higher plane of existence."

              After all - you have no reason to doubt the existence of The Arcurian Megaturd - do you? wink

              1. calynbana profile image86
                calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Absence of historical documents, absence of thousands of years of followers, absence of the moral compass religion provides, absence of logical theology, absence of experiential proofs among people, the fact that it is being described by one person (like a few religions actually) rather than by many people over a series of years in multiple places all saying the same (or similar) thing, following similar theology. I could go on. I just think your example is hilarious and not very well thought out. Should have went with the fsg or something along those lines. Or at least Zeus or Mithra.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  So - let me get this straight - a lot of people have murdered and killed for Jesus demonstrating this, "moral compass," and that makes it more likely than the AM?

                  Is this why you believe then? Because a lot of other people said they saw a majik and a lot of witches were murdered? These "thousands of years of followers," who either followed or were put to death - how is that moral exactly?

                  Hilarious reasons to believe!

                  Go on - tell me how your "logical theology," works, because that sounds like a oxymoron to me. Funny stuff - I like it - can I use that? Logical Theology? lol lol Love it!

                  1. calynbana profile image86
                    calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Or Mark you and your word twisting. You know what I believe, and you know many of the reasons why. Please do not try to twist my words to make me seem less credible. I have enough respect for you not to it with your comments. Do not do it with mine.

                    You maintain that it is the religion of Christianity that causes so many wars, in a way I agree at least that the brand of Christianity you describe causes many wars. Christianity isn't supposed to be religious.

                    I will hold that more than the religion, that the attitude of arrogance starts many wars. The attitude that I see you displaying many traits of throughout your comments. I think that it is arrogance and the feeling of having superior beliefs, intellect, race, technology, resources etc that causes war, and that causes evil.

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Odd - you feel perfectly comfortable telling my my statement was "hilarious," yet when I point out the hilarious nature of your own beliefs - you get all defensive.

                      I have not twisted your words. You claimed "moral compass." I pointed out 2,000 years of murdering the opposition. So - go on - justify your claim of a moral compass.

                      You claimed "thousands of years of followers," I pointed out that it was "follow or be put to death." This is true - unless you can honestly  show me that many of these followers were not coerced.

                      You claimed "historical documents," when that is "a majik book."

                      I find these reasons to believe to be hysterical.

                      No twisting here. Show me that Christians have a better moral compass than anyone else. Should be easy - what with all the thousands of years of followers to choose from. wink

      6. unitify profile image78
        unitifyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        How can a mere human being prove to YOU that GOD exist when it is GOD himself who chooses whom He will show himself to.?  I don't believe GOD chooses to hold back from anyone. I just think that (for lack of better words)  the conditions have to be right at the time. Until that day, know matter what anyone says, The world WILL not and can not see him.  I am not trying to prove to you that God exist.  I am simply sharing with you what has been my experience.  I can only point toward what I BELIEVE to be the TRUTH.  And I didn't always believe. 


        Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
        (Joel 2:28-32; John 16:5-16; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

        15If ye love me, keep my commandments.  (LOVE)

        16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CAN NOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

        18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, AND WILL MANIFEST myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and NOT UNTO THE WORLD? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, IF A MAN LOVE ME, he will keep MY WORDS: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24HE THAT LOVETH ME NOT KEEPETH NOT MY SAYINGS: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

        25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the HOLY SPIRIT, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

        I believe the key to loving Jesus is to know Jesus. Because to know him is to love him.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, your beliefs are based on blind faith, but your own words, "The world WILL not and can not see him" so you would be blatantly lying if you were tell us your God exists.

          1. unitify profile image78
            unitifyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM. 

            Again, I am not trying to prove that GOD exist, for to do so would be futile. Let me just say, I also had doubts. I have always love and admired Jesus.  I read about this man and wanted to know more but the thing was that I had issues with believing in God the father. Then something happened.  It is complicated.  But I will try and explain it on my next hub page if you are interested in reading it.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Quotes from a selfish, egotistical god do not help your argument.



              Fair enough. But, I have heard many stories of such epiphanies and they all usually boil down to ones' emotional state, and very little more. Often, it is due to indoctrination during the persons lifetime.

              1. unitify profile image78
                unitifyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Did you ever consider that maybe God was not demanding love but was just simply stating the facts, the truth if you will? As you look around our world, you will find that there are laws that govern the universe.  For example, here on earth, it you throw something up (because of the law of gravity), it will come down. If God states, "love me and I will reveal myself to you" and this is a spiritual law, then would it not then be impossible to have God manifest himself to those that did not love him no matter how much proof they asked for?  The condition for the manifestation would thus require Love.  Would it not?

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, that has been considered but so far no facts or truths have ever been revealed by any gods.



                  No, it would not. That only shows the behavior of despots and dictators, not loving gods.

      7. Doc Snow profile image94
        Doc Snowposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Really?  Why do you think so?

        Seems to me that if you can prove something exists, then it exists.  But that says nothing about the existence (or otherwise) of things for which 'proofs' (to use a not very scientific word) were (or still are) lacking.

        Otherwise, we'd have to conclude that the moons of Jupiter didn't exist before Galileo observed them.  (Just one example of a great many--the same would be true of most everything science--or exploration--ever discovered.)

        In fact, it seems to me that your postulate--"If a thing exists, it is possible to prove its existence"--runs directly counter to the scientific idea that some sort of reality exists independently of our knowledge about it.  Of course, it must be noted that idea is a scientific postulate or assumption--and thus is itself unproven.

      8. amine-sehibi profile image81
        amine-sehibiposted 15 months ago in reply to this

        1- believers don't ask anyone to disprove the existence of God, at least not in my experience.
        2- how can I prove the existence of God or souls....etc??? they aren't physical things, so it's not like you're asking me to prove the existence of a man or an animal in my backyard, it's not the same thing.
        3- if God created all the universe and all the physical material in it, including the earth and humans, then there is a good chance that God isn't of the same physical material, in the end God created the physical material.
        In fact a believer might talk about evidences, but to my understanding and knowledge surly not about proof. And finally faith isn't about proof, in fact the definition of the word 'faith' indicates it clearly "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof", yeah hope that answer's your question.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

          If "God" depends for his/her/its existence upon a belief in a human's mind, then it is all in the mind, surely?
          All and only in the human mind.
          Remove the human mind from the equation and "God" ceases to exist.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago in reply to this

            No. What about how Spirit / Life exists in all of nature?

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              I understand your question and of course it's not an unreasonable one.
              My guess is that we will never, ever know the answer for sure.
              Any answer anyone likes to give will be based upon supposition and/or belief,  whether from the theist or the scientist.

            2. amine-sehibi profile image81
              amine-sehibiposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              If his equation of leaving  the human mind out then there would be no souls, humans would be just a peace of flesh.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                Does a horse have a soul?  Or is it just a piece of flesh?
                Does a horse have a mind to think with?  Or is it just a life form which acts and reacts to the world in an automatic fashion?

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                  where did his energy come from?

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    Chemical reaction and interaction. 

                    Difference is what drives energy transfer.

                    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                      Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                      What is "difference?"

                    2. colorfulone profile image87
                      colorfuloneposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                      E = mc2

                2. amine-sehibi profile image81
                  amine-sehibiposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                  Hem...does a horse have a soul? you know I don't have an answer to that, I surly don't have an answer for every question. Yet unlike animals a human can act in an non-automatic fashion by using his mind, and starts acting according to rational logic. But the real thing is that if a human was just a peace of flesh then why is he the only known peace of flesh that actually can act in a non automatic fashion? it's his mind that makes the difference right? but what is the mind is it the same as the brain? of course not because all animals have a physical brain but only humans have a  mind, so I'm pretty sure you can figure out the rest of the story,can't you? small hint-question 'why are the human so different from the animals?' 
                  As for the energy question and your chemical reaction & interaction, okay if a human dies then theoretically your chemical reaction and interaction can revive him, right? like lets say my friend dead a week ago but we still didn't bury him can your chemical reaction and interaction get him back?
                  I will tell you something once the soul isn't there then the human becomes a peace of flesh
                  @jonnycomelately_ Do you believe that you don't have a soul?

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    How do you know a horse (or dog or cat or any other animal) does not have a mind?  Cannot act in any non-automatic fashion?  Very few people act according to rational logic: their actions are always based on emotion and wants just as animals are. 

                    Humans are NOT "so different" from animals; they carry the same chemicals, basic make-up and even nearly all of the same genes.

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    My opinion:  "soul" is one more concoction of the human mind.  Therefore if you say I have a soul then I have.  If I say I have not a soul then I have not.  Quantum choice!

                  3. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    Are you 100% sure that we humans react in a "non-automatic" fashion?  I suggest that you are placing human above animal.  For me, that is another false human assumption.  Conjured up by the egotistical mind.
                    Are you 100% sure that a dog, a cat, a horse, etc., acts in an automatic fashion?  All the time?
                    Sir, we humans are simply one species of the animal kingdom.  Our brains/minds are products and faculties of an evolutionary process which has benefitted our growth and our survival as a species.
                    Ego is what tries to convince us otherwise.  And as a concequence the continued existence of our species threatens to make this planet uninhabitable by our own and many other species.
                    I propose that it's blind, egotistical religion that will bring about our demise.

            3. Live to Learn profile image81
              Live to Learnposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              For humans, at least. And, considering what a tiny portion of reality we represent.....how earth shattering is your statement?

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                Are we such a "tiny portion?"

                Sure, there are other species of other classes of life on earth that are more numerous than we.  Yet, we influence the world is an enormous way.
                We have become very adept at survival.  We are multiplying our species at a rapid rate.  We use/abuse all manner of resources in this world, to our own, selfish needs.  We presume that some God/creator made us to "have dominion over" all other animals. 
                Do you not think these factors make us so much more than a "tiny portion" of reality?
                Is our responsibility not equally enormous?   To honestly see our selves as we really are and not as a religious view would see us?

                1. Live to Learn profile image81
                  Live to Learnposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                  All life on earth is still a drop in the bucket when put in the perspective of the entire universe.



                  Of course we have the ability to adversely affect the environment on a more global scale than any other species and as a species with the ability to understand the ramifications of our actions we have an enormous responsibility to our environment. I think we are shirking our responsibilities but it would be foolish to think religion is the cause. Religion could be a driving force in helping people understand that it is our responsibility to be good stewards of this earth, but religion really doesn't have much sway in the West and it is the West who is responsible for most of the problems we are now encountering. Sure, we can point to the East for the most pollution at the moment, but would they be there had we not led the way?

                  I think your view that we are somehow more important than I see us to be may come from a religious background so it is funny that I, as a Christian, see us as no more valuable and no more important to the grand scheme of things in the universe than any other part of it; we may be less important. Think about our place in the universe. It's very small. Our planet is not much more than a speck and we, in turn, are only specks on that speck. We are here now. But, the universe existed a very long time before our arrival on the scene and it will exist for a very long time once we disappear from it.

                  For that matter, so did the earth. I also believe the earth will shake off the negative effects of our presence once we are gone. We aren't as powerful as we like to believe ourselves to be.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    All good and valid points you make.... thank you!

                  2. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    Given that the atmosphere of our planet was once a reducing one, and changed to the current oxidizing type primarily from the effects of cyanobacteria, I wouldn't even say we are more capable than other species of changing the planet.  We haven't accomplished anything like that simple bacteria did - to "terraform" an entire planet.  All we've done is add it minute amount of CO2! smile

                    1. Live to Learn profile image81
                      Live to Learnposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                      Good point. So, we are even less important than cyanobacteria. That's lower than pond scum. It's sobering to think about.

                      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                        jonnycomelatelyposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                        It's ok, folks....I know my place....wink

                      2. wilderness profile image95
                        wildernessposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                        Oh, far, far less.  There are about 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bacteria alive; just a few more than there are people.  Estimates are that well over half the biomass of the planet is bacteria, measured in tons, and man is but a tiny percentage of that total.  We aren't even a blip on the radar.

            4. amine-sehibi profile image81
              amine-sehibiposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              I don't agree with you at all sir. 'Faith in God' is not something that needs to be proven neither can I prove it, but its more about whether you want to believe in God or not that's 'faith in God' yet it's not the same as the 'existence of God'. Does it result into your conclusion " then it is all in the mind" ? no surly not, I could at best accept it as a different approach but surly not as a decisive conclusion. for an example there is people who believe in the existence of alien life although there is no serious evidence or proof, so if those people stop believing in alien life does that mean there is no alien life? no because their existence is not related to the believe in them. you might argue that as long as the best thing that speaks for the existence of God is the faith in God -although there is more arguments that speaks for the idea of God, you might wanna see some parts from this hub http://hub.me/ajupS - then there is no concrete proof for His existence, but does this cease His existence completely? No not at all. so.....

        2. Kiss andTales profile image23
          Kiss andTalesposted 8 months ago in reply to this

          I have heard these words many times. But to answer this . I would say do diamonds have to unearth themselfs to prove to you they are diamonds. No ! you dig for your treasure.
          If you doubt it you will not find, because you have convinced yourself there is nothing there.
          But for those who experience different they can
          will recieve the reward. People just do not believe things for no apperant reason.

          1. f_hruz profile image78
            f_hruzposted 8 months ago in reply to this

            A very poor analogy if there ever was one.

            Mineral resource deposits are not dependent on wishful thinking. They are based on a firm geological understanding of earth science ... religion, mysticism, gods, angels & all the other irrational figments of the human mind are just that, creations of the human mind outside the realm of reality.

            When you understand how to apply reason correctly, you will no longer use such faulty analogies in future, because you will grasp reality much better and see a clear difference between your wishful imagination and what can be substantiated as reasonably possible.

            Gods are not part of our natural world and don't exist in reality outside your own head!

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 8 months ago in reply to this

              That "poor analogy" registered with me also, but I could not get my head around a rational response....so thank you for yours, f_hruz  ... veery apt

            2. Kiss andTales profile image23
              Kiss andTalesposted 8 months ago in reply to this

              I never expect humans who doubt Their own creator to all the sudden say there is a God , just because I use certain examples. But at least I care enough to make some attempt to you my fellow hubers.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 8 months ago in reply to this

                I am a self-made man, and I worship my Creator!

                1. f_hruz profile image78
                  f_hruzposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                  You are the offspring of your parents & a product of nature.

                  You can worship what you like ... but will it help you to develop a better understanding of reality & the natural world you were born into?

                  You have to develop enough intellect on your own to grasp that no gods exist to help you with that!

              2. f_hruz profile image78
                f_hruzposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                Ok, but please make the attempt to put enough logic into your argument so we can follow your reasoning. If you like to learn a few things, start by understanding:

                1- nature has no use for any gods,
                2- humans, like all forms of life on this planet, are a product of nature,
                3- humans invented gods & religion,

                These mythological explanations tried to answer many questions we can now deal with much better by having refined our understanding of the natural sciences.

                I hope this may help you get a better outlook on reality & the natural world!

            3. lovetherain profile image71
              lovetherainposted 7 months ago in reply to this

              As if all science were reasonable or logical. A Universe out of nothing? Quantum mechanics? Think about it.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                All scientific enquiry must always be open to new information.
                It sounds like the religious point of view is closed off.  Only your godly mind can tell you what is true.
                The expansion of our minds to other possibilities can even allow for a finite world arising out of nothing.
                The Quantum theory can even support the hypothesis of a creative mind, making choices, like you suppose your God might do.  But such a God will only  take on the limited attributes of your "believer" mind.
                IMHO

        3. Viviendaturistica profile image60
          Viviendaturisticaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

          Wow it is very difficult to know if god exits. I think there is something special around us

          1. f_hruz profile image78
            f_hruzposted 7 months ago in reply to this

            That special thing is called NATURE & we can learn more about it using our intelligence the best we can as a species ... I think, this movement it's quite well organized now among scientists ... we even make scientific discoveries on a regular basis examining things intelligently using concepts of critical objectivity which works best with out any gods ... smile

            1. A.Villarasa profile image79
              A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

              The problem with  the concept of Nature-dunnit (pantheism) as opposed to God dunnit (Monotheism) has always been that naturalistic explanations rely on what the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle called "the efficient cause", that is, past phenomena producing effects.

              But, the world(cosmos) appears to be DOMINATED by phenomena that can only be understood in terms of "final causes", that is, an "aim" or a "purpose". Aims and purpose are all to evident in the conglomeration that we call "life".

              Certainly in my mind  and of the others who reject that idea of Nature as "god", it still is the principal source of psychological resistance to a naturalistic interpretation of the world.

              1. A.Villarasa profile image79
                A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                I would add to the above the distinctly simple idea  that "naturalistic interpretation of the world"  could never lead to the establishment and progression of what we now call civilization.                                                 Some theorists and thinkers ( both  philosophical and empirical)  have proposed  that humans had not evolved through natural selection alone; to quote one of them ( Alfred Russel Wallace): " evidence clearly point to the existence in man of something which he has not derived from his animal progenitors--- something we may best refer to as being of a spiritual essence... beyond all explanations by matter, its laws and forces."
                In other words, the emergence of civilization, happened because of humankind's strongest social bonds and actions, including the capacity for cooperation, forgiveness, and ultimately martyrdom i.e. allowing oneself to be killed because of commitment to causes and courses of action that are "ineffable"-- that is fundamentally and essentially immune to logical and empirical assessment.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                  The problem is that these "final causes" are always "determined" by man, and nearly always based around ego-centrism.  The false concept that man is somehow special.  A typical example might be that the earth, sun, moon, etc. are all just perfect for man to exist here, "proving" that there was an intelligence producing such a perfect environment just for us.

                  In reality, of course, man evolved to fit what was already here - of course it is a good fit!  That "final cause" - the aim of creation - isn't a cause at all, and in fact is a result instead.  A result of natural forces rather than intelligent intent.

                  But it gets worse; when "thinkers" like Wallace say that "evidence clearly point to the existence in man of something which he has not derived from his animal progenitors--- something we may best refer to as being of a spiritual essence... beyond all explanations by matter, its laws and forces." what they are actually saying is that nothing is clear, and that they don't know or understand the laws and forces that were used to derive us from animal progenitors.  "I'm ignorant of natural laws, so will make up a "spiritual essence" (undefined of course) as an explanation".  The "goddunnit" answer that satisfies every question that we don't have true answers for, but one which answers nothing at all.  Just placates the curiosity if we decline to actually investigate and learn.

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image23
                    Kiss andTalesposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                    Wildeness nothing has evolved, nothing has evolved in over 2000 years, no monkies , no fish,
                    No birds, no man. Can we go to the gorilla and say who your parent and family tree in over 2000 years ?No ! Can a monky tell the zoo keeper we are related let me out of here I have rights lets go to court. No
                    If they existed as our Ancestors then why are there comprehension less then a child.
                    You can not go and ask them about humans past
                    But only humans have recorded there own past in history.
                    Nothing evolved.

                    1. wilderness profile image95
                      wildernessposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                      K&T, you desperately need to study and understand how animals evolve before you begin making claims that nothing is doing so.  You need to understand the time it takes, and why some individuals differ from others.  None of your statements or claims have anything at all to do with reality...a direct result of not understanding how evolution or species change happens.

                      1. Kiss andTales profile image23
                        Kiss andTalesposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                        You see thats the problem you believe in things you never saw in evolving .
                        your life span could not witness this as a fact. No one who just lives under 100 years . no one is not evolving into anything at present as life continues.
                        But you believe this and never seen it in action.
                        But you can not believe in God when you believe in what he created.
                        Does not make any sense to me.

                  2. A.Villarasa profile image79
                    A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                    @ Wilderness: Wallace, together with Charles Darwin,  if you must know,  elucidated  the concept of evolution via natural selection. So to  infer that Wallace is just another "thinker" who knows nothing about nature and its laws,  is to say the least the worst misinformation that I have read on HubPages.

                    1. wilderness profile image95
                      wildernessposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                      Well, when Wallace states that he doesn't understand the details of nature, and therefore there is a god that made the universe he has destroyed any credibility he may have had.  The conclusion (there is a god) simply does not follow from the premise (I am ignorant).

                      1. A.Villarasa profile image79
                        A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                        When it comes to credibility, I'd put my dime-sized coin into the Wallace jar, instead of yours.

                        Darwin was a big fan of Wallace, and vice versa, so I must assume Darwin will also put his dime-sized coin in Wallace's jar.

                      2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                        jonnycomelatelyposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                        I suggest you read from this link:  https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 … el-wallace

                        Conspiracy theories only benefit those who have ulterior motives.

        4. A.Villarasa profile image79
          A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

          The factuality of God as a supernatural entity (as conceptualized by theists) could never be proven by scientific empiricism for the simple reason that it could and never have claimed  that its interests goes beyond the  merely physical or material.

          So showing scientific  "proofs" of God's existence is an exercise in futility to say the least. Now, on the other hand,  arguments for His existence have been proposed by both philosophers and scientists, over the millennia, some more consequential than others. If one is not swayed by those arguments, then I suppose your demand for proof would come to a dead end, notwithstanding that the existence of life in all its permutations is the best proof or argument for the existence of a purposive and aim-full sentience.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 7 months ago in reply to this

            "Arguments" are not equivalent to observation.  And when the argument comes to "It's obvious!" or "It can't be any other way!" or based on ignorance of either individual or mankind in general they aren't worth much of anything.  Things like "...the existence of life in all its permutations is the best proof or argument for the existence of a purposive and aim-full sentience." are virtually meaningless as they are nothing more than ignorance of details coupled with opinions based on a desire for the supernatural.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 7 months ago in reply to this

              And when any of their arguments come up against evidence of observation, it's very easy and convenient to invoke the unseen and unproveable entity of the Holy Spirit.  Very scientific -I'm sure!

              1. A.Villarasa profile image79
                A.Villarasaposted 7 months ago in reply to this

                Kindly tell us what might be those "evidence of observation"  that has totally debunked those arguments, which IMO were based on  ontological considerations.

      9. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago

        'Believers' only have to prove the existence of God if they present it to others as fact.  The whole issue with your theory is that they are indeed 'believers.'  That means they 'believe' in the existence of God, through faith and without solid proof.

        If they present to you that they are certain that God does, in FACT, exist, you are correct.  The burden of proof lies with them. 

        If, however, they tell you that their faith leads them to believe in the existence of God, they owe no one anything in terms of proof.

        Belief in something and knowledge of a proven fact are two different things.

        1. 61
          C L Davisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I agree How can I prove that God exist when I have no tangible evidence that God exist. I have found the belief of God through faith. The Bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. So my faith is my evidence. I don't believe I have the burden of proving God exist, but a responsibility to share what has happen to me. And then it's up to you to believe it or not the choice is your, with the consequences that goes along with that choice. I think it's God's responsibility to prove that He exist since belief is about Him. And I believe that He has done that by the things He has made. Have you ever tried to pick up a glass with just four fingers, and not use your thumb, If you haven't then try it, that tells me that there is an intelligent thinking being out there that i can't prove exist, but was thinking about me here on this earth. Eyes to see with just what i need. ears to hear with just what i need teeth  to chew with just what i need. and to top of that he has revealed a way that you can know him personally and have a relationship with Him. and that is confess your Sins and ask Him to come into your life and he says he will prove to up close that he exist

          1. unitify profile image78
            unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I Believe Christ.  Christ said God Is.  Jesus was real. Or can you prove Jesus was not real or a lier.  Prove it.

        2. A Thousand Words profile image81
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          THANK YOU. I wish that people down here in the Bible belt were aware of such an important distinction between belief and factual knowledge... There'd be more peace and things would be done more... pragmatically...

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Oh, ATW, I love pragmatism!  smile

        3. Hmtrio2 profile image86
          Hmtrio2posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good reply!

      10. jacharless profile image80
        jacharlessposted 4 years ago

        "Many Atheists like to say that Believers should prove that there is a God. Atheists should know that nonexistence has to be disproved, not the existence.

        If a thing does not exist, it is possible to disprove its existence. So atheists should prove the nonexistence of God if he does not exist. But if they want to do it, they have to take shelter of science.............."

        There now, that levels the playing field. We [as I speak on behalf of my brethren] intellectuals and proponents of practical faith wish both sides well. You kids have fun now, y`hear ?!

        James

        1. lone77star profile image90
          lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          lol Outrageous, James!

          1. jacharless profile image80
            jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I was having a bit of fun...big_smile

        2. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Peeping back at the very first posting by Jainismus, I read the above from jacharles.

          These "kids" have sure been having fun!  Over a year now!   I don't have time or inclination to read through all of those posts and arguments, but I would bet each one still has their beliefs set in rock, same as they did 12 months ago.

          Only the individual who has gone into his/her central core of "being-ness" will have reached heights (and depths) of understanding and consciousness that transcend the religious. 

          Such consciousness will open up on a very personal, unique level yet, at the same time, be a uniting force in the One-ness of us all.

          IMHO

      11. lone77star profile image90
        lone77starposted 4 years ago

        No, I disagree. Believers don't have to prove squat.

        The object of this rescue mission is to get us to awaken.

        Demanding proof before you will awaken is silly and counterproductive.

        In fact, "proof" actually gets in the way of spiritual awakening. Here's why:

        Science studies the products of God's creation. Those products are what we call physical reality. They are based upon continuity and action-reaction dichotomies.

        Spiritual awakening is a discontinuous act, as is creation, inspiration and forgiveness.

        Science and spirituality are as different as continuity and discontinuity (oil and water).

        Creation can bend, break or even re-write the laws of physical reality.

        Try walking on water like Peter and Jesus. That takes the discontinuous act known as perfect confidence (faith). That state is a spiritual state where there is no room for dichotomy (and thus, no room for the opposite of confidence -- doubt).

        Those who achieve the ability to create miracles do not need proof. And they get there not by seeking the tool of continuity, but by the "leap" to discontinuity. Proof is the wrong tool -- like trying to spread butter on your toast with a blowtorch or an atomic bomb. They don't work.

        1. 0
          Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Obviously not.



          This is only true if there is a rescue mission, and if you are asleep. Speaking personally, there isn't, and I'm not. However, in your case, I suggest that you avoid driving while sleeping.



          Demanding proof while asleep is impossible.



          Science seeks to understand the universe, without deciding beforehand whether or not it is the creation of God or gods.



          "Spiritual awakening" is something that some people apparently need in order to face reality.



          Science and spirituality and different, yes, but only in the sense that spirituality is an older paradigm with less explanatory power.



          Walking on water happens as often as people release unicorns in their flatulence.



          Those who achieve the ability to create miracles have conveniently redefined "miracle" to remove any trace of the truly miraculous, while simultaneously finessing away the absence of any true miracles.

          1. kathleenkat profile image90
            kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You're being a little harsh, I think. I myself am not Christian, though I don't think it's my job to go around telling people they are delusional about their beliefs. I recognize that what I think and feel is not 'fact' and until I have looked into the eyes of God Himself I have no business telling people what to believe. Being a non-believer doesn't mean you have to be harsh and cruel to those who do believe. We are not better than anybody else; not by what we believe, at least.

            1. 0
              Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Revised to remove a little of the "harshness." However, in my own defense, the only thing that lone77star's ego understands is dogmatism met with dogmatism.

              1. kathleenkat profile image90
                kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                In lone77star's defence, you are the one who chose to post those things.

                Just sayin'. You can't demand respect of one group by disrespecting that group yourself.

                1. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  True.

              2. lone77star profile image90
                lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                And Chasuk, you're being a bit dogmatic with your judgment?

                You frequently use generalities like "only" and that by itself makes your claim suspect.

                1. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Was I being a bit dogmatic with my judgment? Obviously. That's what meeting dogmatism with dogmatism explicitly entails.

                  As for your misunderstanding of the word frequently...

                  Frequently:

                  1. Regularly or habitually

                  2. many times at short intervals

                  If I frequently generalize, then you should be able to trivially produce several examples.

          2. lone77star profile image90
            lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Your body is awake, Chasuk. Big deal.

            Your spirit is so asleep, you refuse to acknowledge that it even exists.

            So, you miss the entire point! Seems typical of your batting averages -- zero out of a thousand.

            1. 0
              Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That my body is awake is a "big deal." I wouldn't be having this dialogue -- as ultimately pointless as it may be -- if it weren't.

              A thing needs to exist in order to be asleep, which is why my body can be asleep, and why the concept of a sleeping spirit is oxymoronic.

              if you had made a point, I concede that I might have missed it. Missing the point, unfortunately, is part of the human condition. However, your egotistical waffling and making a point are not synonymous.

        2. Zubair Ahmed profile image80
          Zubair Ahmedposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          well done for this response lone77star - as you said @believers don't need to prove squat'.

          Time the geniuses in the non-believing camp proved that GOD does not exist  and they can make life using simple chemical reactions.  Besides if God did not create humans then how else did they come into being - and if they just appeared through evolution then surely we should be seeing many more new species of animals and humans appearing

          1. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            An argument from incredulity. Try reading about evolution before making silly comments.

      12. sparkster profile image93
        sparksterposted 4 years ago

        You cannot prove a negative. If somebody claims something exists, then it's down to them to back that claim up with evidence - They are the person who made the claim, it's down to them to prove it. If somebody claims Santa Claus exists it's down to them to prove it, not the rest of the world who didn't even make the claim.

      13. 0
        Emile Rposted 4 years ago

        If you make believers prove their beliefs, where will it end? Everyone believes an infinite number of things. We don't ask proof of most beliefs. Which is why we call them beliefs.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image81
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Which is where logic and reason comes in. There are few things we can know, but what we know, we know for sure, and those are the only things that be weighed as fact. Everything else, whether spiritual or not, is conjecture or in the process of being proven "true," or often true... etc. But I think it's important for every person to question why they believe anything. That would cause this world to be a much more honest place, but certainly less of a deliriously happy one because ignorance literally is bliss.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            How much do we really know for sure? I'm not attempting to be difficult, but I find that the most important questions will remain questions. Never answered with enough facts to make them written in stone.

            I agree that we must always question, but I also think accepting one's ignorance on a cosmic scale is the wisest thing one can do.

            1. A Thousand Words profile image81
              A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We all have our personal views about many things. I don't claim to know all, but I do not take into consideration that which is unnecessary.

              There may be some kind of transcendent being in existence, but it doesn't seem to care much about us over here, so why should I even consider it's existence as a possibility at all? There's literally no reason to believe it exists. Why not live in the obvious reality in front of me, seeking physical "truth" as much as possible, enjoying this life as if it's the only one, and leave the transcendent out there to do what it pleases and have little concern with the metaphysical? Is my reality a false one? Life certainly isn't all that black and white. But there are things that exist no matter what our perception of it is. That is all that is "real," that is all that can be "known" objectively.

              What you're saying is like me living my life as a default atheist, and then someone telling me that Giant space monsters that I can't see and that are only close to the humans who choose to believe in them and don't exist or make themselves known in a tangible/physical sense, created the Universe and that I should keep my mind open to the idea that this is true, because I just don't "know?" We could've been sneezed into existence by a fearful Alien/god-like force (have you ever seen/read "the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy?") How do you know we weren't, Emile?

              1. 0
                Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                What many people fail to understand is that a nonbeliever is generally _not_ questioning the factuality of a claimed experience, but the utility of presenting the claim alone as evidence of that experience.

                As Richard Carrier writes, "The basic principle of rational-empirical. . . [ inquiry] is that all conclusions must logically follow from the evidence available to all observers. . . This means (a) private intuition, personal emotions and feelings, inspiration, revelation, or spirit communications cannot be a primary source of evidence and (b) all conclusions argued from the agreed evidence must be logically valid and free of all fallacies."

              2. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I don't know that we weren't sneezed into existence. But, I wouldn't be disappointed to find that we were, or weren't.  I'd be extremely grateful to know.

                I agree that we should keep our feet firmly planted in reality, but the reality is that we don't know much of anything and adamantly stating anything as if it were a truth from a cosmic viewpoint makes no sense to me. We are sitting on a tiny planet in the middle of a giant universe that we can only imagine. What makes one person's imagination more real than another's?

                1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                  Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Emile, much of what you said is correct and some even refreshing. Science can tell you many things but in truth it does not answer all the questions man has. We have learned much and still have much to learn. Any scientist worth his or her weight will admit that.

      14. sparkster profile image93
        sparksterposted 4 years ago

        If I have genuine faith and belief in the flying spaghetti monster, does that mean it really exists even if I have no evidence?  Should other people believe me on the basis of my claims/faith?  Would you believe me?  Or would you require solid physical proof that the flying spaghetti monster really does exist?

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I think you missed my point.

          I do not present to anyone the existence of God as a fact.  It is my belief.  I cannot prove it.  I admit that I cannot prove it.  It is my faith.  My belief.  You don't have to - nor am I trying to make you - believe it.

          Think I'm crazy.  Think I'm delusional.  That's fine.  I simply think you have no faith.  I don't think you're an idiot for NOT believing the way I do. 

          Of the two of us, which is demanding proof?  You are.  Why?  Because I 'believe' there is a God.  You don't.  I also believe the color purple is more attractive than the color green.  Want me to prove that to you also?

          1. sparkster profile image93
            sparksterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Um... whether the color purple is more attractive than green or not is because of preference or personal taste, not belief or faith (??).

          2. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I often will agree with your posts and do agree with this one other than the fact it is not logical to compare faith in God to real world examples, such as your color examples. You could only compare that faith to similar examples, like the purple invisible dragon living in my garage. smile

            1. sparkster profile image93
              sparksterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Or the flying spaghetti monster (which I mentioned in another thread on this subject).

            2. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Hiya, ATM.

              I see what you're saying.  What's being missed I think is that not ALL believers present God's existence as fact.  If we did, then the onus to prove it would most certainly belong to us.  As it is, no one has the responsibility to prove anything.  We believe through faith, without proof.  You choose not to believe because there is no proof.  All in all, it's just like a color preference.  It's what it is because that's what I think...not because that's what IS.

              In all honesty, I think some feel the way you and sparkster do because so many believers HAVE tried to shove it down your throat (or up your ...) as FACT.  And have then been unable to prove it logically.

              I admit with no shame that my faith is irrational and illogical according to the laws of nature.  But I don't present it as anything but.

              Make sense?  smile

              1. sparkster profile image93
                sparksterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Excellent answer!  You are perfectly entitled to your beliefs whether they're irrational and illogical or not - I believe in the paranormal but I have absolutely no proof whatsoever - I believe because of what I have seen personally with my own eyes. However, most of what I have seen would be instantly debunked by psychologists, debunkers and atheists.

                1. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks.  smile 

                  I think that's the real rub of the discussion!  If we accepted that there is no true, rational proof for what we believe, we wouldn't feel so offended that others do not believe it.  Our subjective experiences cannot be shared as proof, unfortunately.  That doesn't make those experiences any less valid to us.

                  1. twosheds1 profile image60
                    twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Unfortunately, those of us who expect evidence before we believe something irrational are trusted less than rapists, according to some polls, and are prevented from holding public office in certain US states.

                    1. 0
                      Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      People are often as irrational in their behavior as they are in their beliefs.  Individual believers, unfortunately, cannot be held responsible for the attitudes of the masses.  AND, an atheist - according to the LAW is not prohibited in any way from holding public office on a federal level.  Whether people choose to vote for one is entirely up to them.  States make their own laws regarding this issue, and have been given permission by the Federal government to do so.

                      That doesn't mean that either side is responsible to prove/disprove the existence of God.  sad

                      1. twosheds1 profile image60
                        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I don't think any state has been given permission to violate Article 6 and the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. It's just not enforced.
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_religious_test_clause

        2. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Not all beliefs are formed on the basis of evidence. You have many day to day believes that are not. You don't reason that you have pain in your head, therefore you must have a headache. Your belief that you have a headache is grounded in the experience of feeling pain in your head. Such beliefs are basic beliefs. They result from the fact that you place high epistemic value on what you experience, i.e. you trust your senses. You have evolved that way. It helps you survive (if you see a car coming at you, spending time considering evidence will get you dead, quick). So your belief that a car is coming at you is grounded in your experience, i.e. seeing it. You assume your senses and faculties are reliable as you have evolved to. That assumption is the foundation of your belief.

          People who believe in god also assume that their faculties and senses are reliable. Those people who feel forgiven or loved, or chastised and attribute that to god are 'experiencing' god. Their god-belief is grounded in that apparent experience. In the same way your headache-belief is grounded in your experience. You don't need evidence to prove to yourself you have a headache, and you don't care if no one believes that you do. You 'know' you do. Someone who believes in god doesn't need evidence to prove to themselves god exists. They 'know' god does. So if you genuinely believed you had experienced an FSM, then your belief in the FSM would be grounded in that experience. Presenting evidence to support that belief may be impossible, but for you it would be unnecessary.

      15. aware profile image70
        awareposted 4 years ago

        ahhhhh . sighs.....    and smiles. thats funny stuff

      16. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        Exaclty, the onus is on the wish-thinkers to prove the existence of their God. Not the unbelievers. Fact is wish-thinkers cannot prove the existence of their God just like unbelievers cannot disprove it.

      17. 72
        Robertr04posted 4 years ago

        So now what?  Wish-thinkers?

      18. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        So now what? Well, since religion is the scurge of the world and, more specifically, the Christian religion promotes ignorance, servitude, genocide, murder and child abuse, its the duty of nonbelievers to try and reduce the influence of religion in our daily lives as much as possible.

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, one could argue that anyone who takes it upon themselves to do their 'duty' and take action against anyone else they deem the 'scurge of the world' has historically proven to be pretty big problems.

      19. SpanStar profile image59
        SpanStarposted 4 years ago

        I'm not buying it is "Believers Have to Prove the Existence of God."

        Number one it is not a believer who is seeking God but rather the nonbeliever so just like a person looking to invest their money into a company they are unfamiliar with they take steps to establish whether or not this company is viable in short they had to prove to themselves that this is worth the time and money.

        People always talking about needing evidence and if evidence doesn't exist God doesn't exist. OK, where is the evidence for human souls? Believers believe the soul is a spirit those who are of a scientific nature "What Say You?" Prove It!

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I am a nonbeliever and I am not seeking God. Why would I want to be a servant to an insecure, tyrannical God who advocates genocide, murder, intolerance, child abuse and hate? In fact, I would love to erase the superstitions of the world and be rid of religion before it destroys the world.Wait, you are refering to the Christian God, right? I mean, there are 10,000 religions in the history of the world and they are all as plausible as the next. Which superstiton are you refering to?

          1. SpanStar profile image59
            SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Brian,

            Based on what you've written clearly I have no idea on the distorted view of life you have regarding religious belief and trust me it is distorted.

            The evil you profess which is the corruption of the world please present the images, video what ever that shows that it is God and not man who was/is stealing, lying, cheating, killing, raping.

            I suspect you have a mug shot of the perpetrator you refer to as God correct?

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I present to you the King James version of the Bible. Arguably the most immoral book I have ever read. The Old Testament advocates genocide, intolerance, murder, child abuse and servitude to a tyrannical and insecure toltalitarian dicator called God. However, in the Old Testament, at least one can escape this tyranny through death. It is not until the wickedest man in the Bible, Jesus Christ comes along that Hell is first mentioned. So, not only does the misery take you in life but it follows you unto the grave. A horrible and immoral doctrine.

              My view of your superstition comes from the black and white pages of the Bible and it means nothing to me to hear you say 'trust me it is distorted'. Who are you to be trusted?

              1. SpanStar profile image59
                SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Your perspective is most certainly distorted. If tyrants are out of control murdering and killing innocent men women and children then people who think like you believe that everyone should stand back and hold their hands and do nothing-how pathetic and ridiculous.

                Hell is a bad place so here is a thought just off the top of my head don't continue doing the evils which can get you into hell-like I said it's just the thought.

      20. EmVeeT profile image80
        EmVeeTposted 4 years ago

        The fact is, GOD DOES EXIST. Whether some choose to acknowledge HIS Existence or not, does not change HIM. Moreover, GOD's Existence does not need to be proven. This earth is only one dimension of existence, a very limited one. GOD EXISTS outside the parameters of this earth, as well as in the heart's, minds and lives of those who choose to trust, love, worship and obey HIM.

        Those who do not, will discover HIS EXISTENCE, but to their detriment, the discovery may come too late. You see, HIS OFFER of friendship is based on faith. Anyone who must "see" in order to believe, may be brought to consequence.

        One thing that I consider truly fascinating is the concept that humankind considers itself so utterly important as to reject the idea of GOD, and then demand proof HE IS. In the Book The Bible calls Isaiah,  there is a statement that says, "every knee shall bow to HIM, every tongue shall confess that HE IS LORD". This is no small claim. Yet, these words are written in invitation, not as a scare tactic.

        GOD WILL PROVE HIS EXISTENCE, but HE WILL  do so, in HIS OWN TIME. Meanwhile, the invitation to humankind is a limited time offer.

        May GOD BLESS you.
        smile

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          In North America there is an inuit group who once believed that a raven rolled a gleaming ball on its wings and tossed it into the sky This is how the sun was created, they claim. Its acutally an interesting story and worth reading. However, there is as much evidence to support that claim as there is to support the existence of your God.

          1. EmVeeT profile image80
            EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            We shall both see...

            smilewink

            GOD BLESS you, Brian in Canada!

            smile

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Indeed. All the best to you.

          2. kathleenkat profile image90
            kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Raven Steals the Sun! I actually own a copy of this, from a folklore and mythology course I took in college.

            EmVeeT does not need evidence or proof of God to believe. She doesn't need to prove it to you. Neither do athiests need to disprove God to others. That is the point of this topic, I believe (but not going to try and prove my belief about this topic is correct).

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Kathleen, I have to disagree. When you have a text like the King James version of the Bible, for instance, which advocates genocide, murder, intolerance, child abuse and has Christians heading to the destitute parts of the world to tell people if the do not follow the word of God they will exist in everlasting torment - when they mutulate little boys and girls genitals for the rest of their lives (and who have no say in the matter) then the anti is raised and they must be able to provide proof for their horrific actions. It is not enough to just believe without proof. If they just minded their own business and kept their beliefs at home then all would be fine.

              1. kathleenkat profile image90
                kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's a rather harsh blanket statement. I don't think EmVeeT has mutilated children's parts, advocates murder, or advocates rape. I think there are very few Christians that actually do that stuff. The belief in a God, gods, or goddesses does not require any proving to anyone else. If it is real enough to you, then that is between you and your God. Of course, if you rape someone in God's name, you had better be able to prove God told you to do it...which, is not possible. People like that usually end up shot anyway.

                1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                  Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  'People like that usually end up shot anyway' is based on what? Rape happens everyday, all over the world in the name of religion. I am not suggesting EmVee T does it personally, but what I described is actually happening all over the world in the name of Christianity and where would they learn it? In the Bible where it is writtien clearly in black and white. It is not a blanket statement, these are facts.

                  1. kathleenkat profile image90
                    kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, considering we shot Bin Laden because he committed an act of terrorism in the name of his religion...

                    1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                      Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes, and in my opinion the Americans were justified in shooting him. Good on the USA!

              2. EmVeeT profile image80
                EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Brian in Canada,

                You said, " When you have a text like the King James version of the Bible, for instance, which advocates genocide, murder, intolerance, child abuse and has Christians heading to the destitute parts of the world to tell people if the do not follow the word of God they will exist in everlasting torment - when they mutulate little boys and girls genitals for the rest of their lives (and who have no say in the matter) then the anti is raised..."

                Then to, "we shot Bin Laden because he committed an act of terrorism in the name of his religion..." You replied, "Yes, and in my opinion the Americans were justified in shooting him. Good on the USA!"

                Are you telling the members of Hub Pages that you have a right to applaud the killing of a terrorist... and that your judgment is just? Are you also saying, you have a right to judge the workings of GOD?

                You see, Brian in Canada, we are living in a day when the world has been witness to Bin Laden's terrorism; but, none of us are witness to the terroristic actions or atrocities of the people against whom GOD Pronounced Judgment.


                Furthermore, be careful what you write. GOD DOES NOT ADVOCATE " genocide, murder, intolerance, child abuse...". I caution you in love: you need to be careful what you write.

                The King James Version of The Bible is only one Book by which historical record has been documented; there are other historical books that document the atrocities committed by the various nations; as well as the atrocities against the people of GOD throughout the ages. The Israelites, just as the Israelis today have been brought to endure horrific atrocities at the hand of the nations that sought to annihilate them. The insidious actions continue against the nation and against the people of GOD.

                You write as though you are perfect and have the right to point your finger at GOD. I am unsure: are you a professed atheist? (I have not read all the posts on this Thread.) If so, I will better understand how a mere human has the heart to consider GOD as miniscule as man, and why you consider yourself capable of judging HIM on any level, without any real understanding of the historical facts, or the reasons behind any of what HE ADVOCATES, if in fact, HE ADVOCATES... If you are an atheist, you certainly have a strange way of proving that profession... you attribute all of humankind's (or at least those of any who call themselves Christian) faults to THE GOD you don't believe in...

                You also write as though man, in general, has not engaged in atrocities of the type you attribute to GOD, only Christians... and I admit, so very much damage has been done to the NAME of THE MOST HIGH GOD, in the name of religion; but that is due to the frailty of humankind.

                GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for the inept manifestations of any man in HIS  Name, in the name of religion or in any other name. Moreover, each individual will face HIM personally relating to the actions, words and even thoughts that have been entertained and exacted during a lifetime.

                I know that whatever point I make will be shot down by you or by others who think like you. This is your right and privilege in a "free speech" platform. However, I would like to request that those who think as you do, think deeply about the words attributed to, for or against GOD.

                Man/woman makes many mistakes... oh so many. GOD MAKES NO MISTAKES. Therefore, whatever is written about HIM... well... whether you say you believe in HIM or not, HE IS
                ; therefore, I request that those who want to say anything against HIM consider the words will be emblazoned upon the records pertaining to the season(s) of humankind, and will brought forward on Judgment Day.

                I pray GOD forgives those who have no clue the depths of disrespect to THE LIVING GOD. I pray a Revelation of HIS NATURE and POWER cause the many to temper each word wielded like a sword to slash HIM down. Because HE IS GOD, HE FORGIVES, but each of us is responsible for what we say, when we say, 'we mean it or we don't care...".

                GOD BLESS you, Brian in Canada.
                smile

      21. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        It's interesting that believers seem to drive atheists nuts because they believe.  Isn't is fine for everybody to believe whatever they want?

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The believers do not drive me nuts - if they want to believe in something based on zero evidence, despite how illogical and irrational their belief is,  then so be it. If they want to be servants to a master then it is their right and I would not take that away from them even if I had the power.

        2. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          What drives us nuts is when believers turn their belief into policy.

      22. Jenna Pope profile image60
        Jenna Popeposted 4 years ago

        Look at a baby's tiny fingernails or a spider under a magnifying glass or at a beautiful sunset. . . Intelligent design is apparent.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You're right! Nature is wonderful.

        2. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Would you include the appendix, male nipples, and the sharing/close proximity of excretory and reproductive organs in your intelligent design?

      23. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        Are you speaking to me? If so I am baffled at your reply. Where does it say that I believe people should stand aside and allow murder, rape or even genocide of men, women and children like the one's God commanded Moses to perpetrate in the Bible? Of course it should be stopped! Genocide is the most horrible, immoral act to commit on earth, like the examples God advocates in the Bible. You know 'The Good Book' where we supposedly inherit our morals from ...

        1. SpanStar profile image59
          SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Talking to you Brian, absolutely

          It is implied says you're putting all the blame on God for the actions of men. The Egyptians enslaved thousands of people now since you said it should be stopped how are you going to stop them? The same can be said for the Romans-how are you going to stop them. Modern man has engaged in numerous wars-why haven't they been stopped?

      24. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        By the way, where are the Amalekites and Canaanites now? Oh, they do not exist as they were vicitms of genocide ordered by God. Even the children were not spared the sword.

        1. SpanStar profile image59
          SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Brian,

          Am I'm to take from what you said that you saw God use a sword against these people or perhaps you have some definitive proof that God was killing these people and not men?

          1. Brian in Canada profile image60
            Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I am relating the word of the Bible. In the Bible God commands Moses to commit genocide against the Amaleks. This is in black and white print.  As a Christian, are you not to believe the word of the Bible or do you pick and chose what to believe?

            1. A Thousand Words profile image81
              A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Don't bother, man. They only see "God" in a good light.

              Don't try to point out to people the many places where God commands awful things. For instance, there was a man and he was told by a prophet to strike him (the prophet) for no apparent reason, and the man refuses, so God sends a lion to maul him to death for not obeying the violent command.

              That's in 1 Kings 20.

              Or about the "man of God" who God told not to eat and drink in a certain place. Then, however, an old prophet lied to him, knowing he would trust his words because he was a prophet and claimed that an angel changed the rules. The man ate and drank in the place he wasn't supposed to, and knowing he'd been deceived, God still sent a lion to kill Him, anyway.

              You'll find that in 1 Kings 13.

              God likes to send lions to maul people, me thinks.

              Anyway, there are endless scriptures pointing out his tyrannical nature, but most Christians find a way to blow it off or excuse it.

              1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Exactly! Well said! I recently sited a few scriptures from the King James Version of the Bible to a woman who wanted me to prove a point. She later said, as her only defense, that her King James Version does not have these scriptures in it .... I mean, how can you argue with such ignorance?

                1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You can't, always. Sometimes you just have to walk away... especially from people who are so deluded that they can barely relate to other humans anymore... I believe some people on here actually live on a different planet...

        2. SpanStar profile image59
          SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Brian,

          When one reads passages in the Bible where God is telling man to eliminate others first of all because he alone understands what the results would be if they remained alive. Secondly God deals with man at our own ignorance level. If someone is a pugilist it is doubtful the approach to a solution is through hugs and kisses. The same can be said for tyrants who are not going to be swayed by passionate words. Someone once said in order to communicate you have to talk to a person in a language they understand. Do you really think one can go into a prison institution with flowers in their hair and changed the dynamics of that institution?

          God can cause death but most times you will find it is at the request of humans.

          1. Brian in Canada profile image60
            Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry, but didn't Jesus say to 'love your enemies'? You have just contradicted that by saying:  "The same can be said for tyrants who are not going to be swayed by passionate words. Someone once said in order to communicate you have to talk to a person in a language they understand. Do you really think one can go into a prison institution with flowers in their hair and changed the dynamics of that institution?"

            1. SpanStar profile image59
              SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Brian,

              Jesus did in fact say "Love Your Enemies." Which is in fact what we should do meaning all of mankind. Jesus/God is however not forcing people to do so. The man God of peace was tortured and murdered by humans.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                And that same God tortured and murdered way more humans...

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It seems to me that most atheists present a good arguement against organized religion and jump to the conclusion that this somehow proves the nonexistence of a higher power that we call God.

                  We make the mistake when we attempt to define "GOD"  We forget that we are playing his game.  We make conclusions based upon those facts that he has given us.

                  Nothing is as it apears to be. We make conclusions based only upon those facts that we choose to accept.  We truly are prisoners of our own mind.

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Why do you assume that I am an Atheist? I simply strongly disagree witht he Christian/Western view of a possible "transcendent" entity of the Universe. My views on the world are very influenced by science, but also by Eastern thought, and my own experiences, and other people's experiences, and psychology. i think it's important not to only see the world from one point of view, especially when that point of view includes a supposedly loving God, who shows favoritism and is very similar in nature to humans, many times the worst of humanity, I might add, while supposedly having "higher thoughts and ways" than we do.

      25. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        Brian you are obviously seeking answers otherwise why would you take the time to write the hub.  I continue to wonder why atheists (I'm sure not all) seem to be angry and want to insult Christians.  Why not just believe what you believe and let others do the same?

        1. ihayaydin profile image60
          ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Atheists are afraid of accepting existence of God, because they do not know what will happen to them after death.  they insult all believers not only christians. their denial ability is too succesful.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            What is scary is:  Don't believe God.  Believe me.  That's how cults are started.

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, that is how Christianity gets its follwer, too, and it too is a cult.

          2. twosheds1 profile image60
            twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I know exactly what will happen to me after death, and there is ample evidence that what I believe is correct. Where is your evidence?

            BTW, which god should I accept the existence of?

            1. ihayaydin profile image60
              ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Allah is your god ,your creator even though you deny.. he is only god,  he created you,you were born ,you will  die and return him.  you do not have to accept, it is your desicion,of course. there is no obligation. but god warns you   
              about your not believing in Quran,bible and other books.once people wanted the proof like yours, god sent you holy books and prophets. many miracles and  people destruction occured,however some people went on denying.

              1. twosheds1 profile image60
                twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Followers of Vishnu in India tell people the same thing. Followers of Wotan told people the same thing in Scandanavia a thousand years ago. Marduk's followers in Babylonia said the same thing back in the day.

                How do you know the holy books are right? At some point, did you say "I know this sounds like nonsense, but I am going to believe it anyway?"

                1. ihayaydin profile image60
                  ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  if you read,you can decide yourself, there is no even minor wrong information about past and future. quran is a quide to show how you can live in peace and the questions that you wonder about creation,etc..  ıt is not my duty to prove Allah and books, they already exist. ı pray for guidance.

                  1. calynbana profile image86
                    calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    But the Qur'an says that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Christians call Jesus God, Muslims call him a messenger. Wouldn't this be an example of an error in the Qur'an?

                    1. EmVeeT profile image80
                      EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Hi Calynbana,

                      You say, "the Qur'an says that Christians and Muslims worship the same God."

                      I'm unsure regarding what is written in the Qur'an, but I can tell you from the view of Christianity, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same GOD.

                      You see, to Christians, JESUS is not simply a prophet or a good man, HE IS GOD Incarnate. To believe anything less about HIM is error. Of course, there are many branches, that call themselves Christian also saying JESUS was only a prophet, but that is not what THE BIBLE says about HIM.

                      I don't know if you have actually read the Qur'an. I have not. Still, I interact with a great many Muslims and I have never heard one tell me they are taught Christianity and Islam believe the same thing. Never.

                      You should check the information out for yourself. That is the very best way to be sure you have the truth on this subject. I am almost certain, Islam thinks JESUS is merely a prophet. Not so for Christians. To me, HE IS GOD, Who came to the earth, specifically to die for my sins, so that I could resume in relationship with GOD, THE FATHER, or ADONAI, YEHWEH, THE LIVING GOD. JESUS' Death paid the debt of my sins. I am free from the debt as a result of HIS SHED BLOOD. HIS WILLING SUBSTITUTION on my behalf, makes me free and clear of my debt of sin. From the moment I accepted HIS DEATH on The Cross of Calvary on my behalf, I was liberated to interact with GOD, THE FATHER again.

                      JESUS, is my SAVIOUR, my LORD and my SOVEREIGN GOD! not so for a Muslim.

                      MAY GOD bring the truth to light, for HIS Name's Sake. 

                      smile

                      1. twosheds1 profile image60
                        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Islam, Judaism and Christianity all follow the same god. That's why they're called the "Abrahamic" religions. Look it up if you doubt.

                        "Still, I interact with a great many Muslims and I have never heard one tell me they are taught Christianity and Islam believe the same thing. Never."

                        They don't believe the same thing, otherwise they'd be the same religions. Help me out here, ihayaydin, but Muslims refer to Christians and Jews as "people of the book." They respect Jesus and see him as a prophet, but not as the son of God. They see Mohammed as the final prophet.

                      2. calynbana profile image86
                        calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I know that Islam teaches about Jesus being a prophet. I am referring to a passage in the Qur'an that says that Muslims worship the same God as Jews, and Christians.

                        Christians believe that Jesus is God.

                        If Muslims are worshiping the same God as Christians they would be worshiping Christ alongside us. They are not. They worship a different god.

                        That would mean that the Qur'an is inaccurate in saying that these three large religions worship the same God.

                        That was the only point I was trying to make because it was earlier said that the Qur'an has no errors and it seems that it does.

                      3. Highland Terrier profile image62
                        Highland Terrierposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Evening,
                        What sins did you commit?
                        Where you alive back then?

                    2. ihayaydin profile image60
                      ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      the quran came to earth after the bible,if one of them is wrong, it must be bible because the bible doesnt mention quran but Quran mentions, there are maryam(mary) surah and others. maybe you heard, but the bible has been changed over centuries. it is said that real bible is being protected. since first life, many prophet came to earth, people always needed guides. original bible doesnt exist ,therefore a new holy book is needed and god sent quran and hz. Muhammed. ı believe jesus is great prophet and messenger of god. real bible and quran arent different, they say same things in basis.

                      1. calynbana profile image86
                        calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I am questioning a phrase from the Qur'an that refers to Christians- the followers of Christ. The followers who believe that Jesus is God. The Qur'an says that they worship the same God as Muslims.

                        So either you worship the same God as Christians- which would be Jesus, or you are telling me that the Qur'an has an error.

              2. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                A fine statement, that Allah is the one and only God, and it has exactly the same relation to truth that twosheds comment does: none.  Either may be true, either may be false.  Neither has evidence of truth, neither is accepted by a majority of people.

                1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Wilderness, there is a great nostril that sneezed us into existence. Devote your life to it, lest ye be damned. I have no proof, but you better believe!

                2. twosheds1 profile image60
                  twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  My point was that every other religion in history believed that it was the one true faith, and that any and all others were false (OK, maybe not Unitarians, but most religions). They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. How does one know if one is following the correct one?

              3. calynbana profile image86
                calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You mentioned the Qur'an and the Bible, does that mean you read and trust both scriptures?

          3. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Don't be silly; there is no reason for an atheist, KNOWING (just as you do, and with just as much evidence) what will happen at death - the self disappears forever from the cosmos.  No punishment, no torture, just an ending with nothing more.

            The religious, on the other hand, have a very definite reason to fear death and do.  They will go to heaven or hell, but never know which one.  They thus have a great fear of death as they may enter the chambers of eternal torture and pain.

            1. ihayaydin profile image60
              ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              the ones who love their god ,never have fear inside them, they want to meet with their god as soon as. the death is the beginning of real life, this world is fake, we have very short life span.

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Hmm..this sounds alot like the Philosophers of the 3rd and 4th century BCE...(Hint: Plato)

              2. Brian in Canada profile image60
                Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You can see from this fellows response how much religious people despise the earth, its beauty and the people in it. They say 'the world is fake'. They are afraid of life and wish for death. Believe me, it won't be global warming or a comet that will destroy the earth, it will be the hate of religious people for the earth. The axis of evil: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

                1. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Brian in Canada,

                  You say, You can see from this fellows response how much religious people despise the earth, its beauty and the people in it. They say 'the world is fake'. They are afraid of life and wish for death.

                  Have you lost anyone you love?

                  Death is a very permanent separation for those of us who dwell on the earth from those we love, and with whom we embrace relationship. To observe that "religious people despise the earth, its beauty and the people in it..." is truly shallow.

                  How can you be expected to be taken seriously when your goal is to insult the sensitivities of those you appear to despise, based on the word selections you make.

                  You say, "...religious people...say 'the world is fake'. They are afraid of life and wish for death."

                  Those who "wish for death..." are more often than not, people who have lost faith, who have lost hope, who find themselves in circumstances that appear to swallow their options and cast them into a sea of veritable fears and infinite frustrations. I state this, since, in my life I have conversed with many individuals who have experienced such defeat that they could not find the clear path toward balance for their lives.

                  The desperation and anger, bitterness and lack of power they felt was birthed in the lack of faith or the upset over not being able to understand because they counted on others to give them a solution, instead of investing themselves into position of strength, using the skills at their disposal.

                  The fact that you target, "Christianity, Judaism and Islam" as "the axis of evil" proves you are a very prejudiced individual. I dare say, your generalization is narrow-minded, unwarranted and cruel. If this is one of the foundational thought-patterns undergirding atheism, I am SO VERY THANKFUL TO GOD in Heaven that I am not one.

                  May GOD BLESS all your thoughts, actions and words, with HIS WISDOM, HIS COMPASSION, HIS TRUTH and HIS MERCY. I pray this in THE POWERFUL NAME of YESHUA, of Nazareth, GOD with us. Amen.

                  Certainly

                  1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                    Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Religion has passed so much evil, death and destruction on the world that I dare say it poisons everything. Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have proven to be nothing but evil all over the world. I dont want your Gods blessing - it is clear in the Bible he is a violent, jealous God who is cruel and unforgiving.

                    1. EmVeeT profile image80
                      EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Brian in Canada,

                      GOD IS SO GOOD TO you, and you fail to see it. In fact, I already see how much HE HAS BLESSED you. You live in a country where you are free to believe what you will. You are free to express yourself, even if your expressions are sadly biased. You have a right to tell me you don't want my GOD's Blessing too. So, I will no longer write that on any communication with you; however, I will pray for you on my own.

                      You are obviously very angry. Something has made you hate GOD. The problem with your hatred, is that it is misdirected. Whatever motivates your hatred may have attached itself to GOD, but I can assure you, GOD WAS NOT THERE. HE COULD HAVE BEEN if you had called upon HIM for help, or protection.

                      I believe the god who has truly caused your pain is the same one blinding you to the fact that GOD, THE CREATOR GOD, that is, is very forgiving. HE IS not violent; however HE IS HOLY and HE WILL NOT TOLERATE EVIL forever.

                      You call HIM jealous... you would be too, if everything good about you, that you did for anyone, was accredited to someone or something else. HIS Jealousy is HOLY. HE WANTS us to understand the value of relationship with HIM. In fact, HE DIED to secure that relationship.

                      There's more to the story, but I can't write a book here. And you seem very familiar with, actually in hate with THE HOLY BIBLE, so I think you may have been forced to read it sometime.

                      What I do know is you are mistaken about GOD. However, you are free to believe whatever you prefer.

                      Emveet.

                    2. kathleenkat profile image90
                      kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Really? "Nothing but evil"?

                      I stay at Marriotts all the time, and the people there are always very nice, and treat me with respect. I am thankful for Marriott. Marriott, did you know, operates under the name of God? Yes, there is a Bible in every bedside stand at every Marriott I have ever visited. How, then, is that "Nothing but evil"?

                      1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        As soon as I check into a room I open my front door and throw that immoral book into the hallway. I was my hands immediately after touching it.

                    3. ihayaydin profile image60
                      ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      as atheist,what have you proved so far? if believers and their god are evil,before this evil one infects you, go some far away, live in another world. as human, you are weak creature, even a minor virus is enough to kill you. you are powerless. God gives you everything to survive, you need light, god has given you Sun, you need water and food, god has given you the soil to plant and rains. you should thank god.  God give you intelligence, he made you superior  to other creature. if someone is evil, they are unthankful ones.even if you are 100 years old, if you believe god,your all past sins will be forgived, you will be naive like a baby.whatever you are,god is welcome to you.

                    4. Jerami profile image78
                      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Death and destruction seems to be enevediable for all life forms in this physical reality              . Some have longer life spans than others. And there are countless ways in which it is carried out.
                      And I guess some ways are more enjoyable than others ???? 

                      Some people might consider them all "EVIL"  some more than others.
                      Even a kernel of corn must die in order to sustain lifer.   Go Figure?

            2. EmVeeT profile image80
              EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Wilderness:

              You said:

              The religious, on the other hand, have a very definite reason to fear death and do.  They will go to heaven or hell, but never know which one.  They thus have a great fear of death as they may enter the chambers of eternal torture and pain.

              You assume much.

              I, for one, have no fear of death. Like every other normal person, I sometimes wonder when, where or how it will happen for me. However, I have no fear of death and the hereafter. I am confident that my body will cease to exist, but the deeper, more valuable essence of who I am, my eternal soul, will not cease to exist.

              Have you never watched the NDE's of those who testify to continuing to "be" after their body was dead? I have spoken to two people regarding their 'death' experiences; and the knowledge they contributed to my base, not only reflected what I know about death through THE BIBLE, but answered questions for me that were in complete accord with one another and with THE BIBLE contextual proofs.

              To assume is to think what you really don't know... (my own definition). Perhaps, many of us are guilty of this, but throwing out viewpoints that prove the lack of knowledge is silly. While I am not religious, I do have a deep set faith in GOD, HIS SON JESUS, Whom I call my SAVIOUR, and HIS HOLY SPIRIT, the part of HIM with whom I interact. These are factual evidences to me that HE IS GOD. However, the only reason I have such an interaction is because I sought it out many, many years ago.

              Throughout the course of my faith walk, or journey, thousands of circumstances might have proven to me, HIS lack of existence. But no!

              HIS EXISTENCE and VITAL INTERACTION with me, my circumstances and the people I love has consistently been AFFIRMED, CONFIRMED and REAFFIRMED. I have an affinity to this world because of the people I love and the activities that I participate in; however, when the day comes that I am  no more, I am not afraid. I am ready.

              You might consider this an option. smile

              GOD BLESS you, Wilderness.

              1. twosheds1 profile image60
                twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Just out of curiousity, do you know of any non-Christians who had a NDE and then converted to Christianity? Not atheists or people weak in their faith, but people who were actual followers of other religions?

                1. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Hey Twosheds1! How are you?

                  You asked, "do you know of any non-Christians who had a NDE and then converted to Christianity?"

                  Yes. A Dr. Maurice Rawlings. He wrote a book many years ago called, "Beyond Death's Door". I read it years ago. Recently, he did a documentary with many NDE cases integrated into the mix. On this documentary I learned Dr. Rawlings was actually an atheist before being involved with a NDE. This NDE was not his own, but one of his patients. In any case... the answer to your question is 'yes'. More than one. More than a few... in other words, 'many'.

                  GOD BLESS you, Twosheds1!
                  smile

                  1. twosheds1 profile image60
                    twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Apparently you didn't read all of what I asked. I asked not for people who were atheists. I assume Dr. Rawlings was raised in a Christian setting, so his conversion makes sense. What I was looking for was, for example, a Hindu who converted to Christianity after an NDE. Someone who doesn't have any Christian background at all. I Googled it and didn't find anything.

      26. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        And is seems desperately that We want people we DON"T know to believe what's in our minds.  It is easier for me to believe in Jesus.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, being a servant to a totalitarian master and allowing him to control your life is much easier than chosing freedom from oppression and individuality.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, Brian.  It gives me a peace that passes understanding.

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              It also passes logic, common sense and integrity.

      27. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago

        each and every individual posesses a small amount of creative abilities.
        Each and every word that comes out of our mouths has an affect upon the enviroment which we live in.

        Can you imagine how strong that ability would be if it were not divided?

      28. SpanStar profile image59
        SpanStarposted 4 years ago

        It is also been prophesied in the Bible that he (the devil) would will deceive the whole world in as much as people have been conversing with nonbelievers from my point of view I think we are at the beginning of Satan's deception. For if we can get someone to believe that something isn't what it really is then we can control that someone or someones'.

        1. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          How do you know the Bible is true?

          1. SpanStar profile image59
            SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Twosheds1,

            Good question.

            Unfortunately God is not looking for us to prove his existence he is asking us to trust him.

            If you were injured, incapable of leaving the spot you were in when your good friend next to your side says he will go and get help you have two choices to trust that he will or trust that he won't.

            1. twosheds1 profile image60
              twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              True, but my friend has provided evidence, through (actual) friendship, that he's reliable. If it was some dude I never met, I might be a little suspicious.

      29. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        In the Bible there are countless acts of violence perpetrated by the followers of God under his direct orders. Genocide, murder, rape, etc. How do you know that those Christians in recent times who have commited such acts in the name of their beliefs have not done so under the direct order of God? You don't know this - maybe such as in the Old Testament Gos is commanding them to murder women and children, such as God commanded Moses in the Old Testamtent to do.

        Now, before you say "God is a loving, caring, forgiving God and would never do that" again, I once again refer you to the King James version of the Bible where God is anything but those things. A cold hearted, jealous, malicious God, yes, but not a loving one.

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Brian in Canada,

          You say, "How do you know that those Christians in recent times who have commited such acts in the name of their beliefs have not done so under the direct order of God? You don't know this ..."

          Yes. I know without a doubt GOD DID NOT give ANY INDIVIDUAL ORDERS to commit acts of violence and/or crime. How do I know?

          The New Testament is a Book that extends a NEW COVENANT to humankind. That Covenant is one that GUARANTEES GOD'S MERCY to those who FOLLOW HIM in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. To follow GOD/JESUS/THE HOLY SPIRIT in spirit and in truth a person must live a sinless life in as much as he/she is able to do. This means, that to the best of his/her ability, a TRUE FOLLOWER of GOD will NEVER COMMIT an act that would break one of The Ten Commandments.

          To break any of The Ten Commandments breaks the relationship with GOD. In other words, if an individual commits an act of violence or crime and then blames GOD for it, that person is delusional and/or mentally unstable, or in great deception. Anyone who says GOD Told them to commit an act of violence or crime is lying to themselves.

          The question that needs to be asked is [i]which god were they listening to
          , because it was NOT THE GOD of ALL CREATION and ETERNAL LIFE!

          You say,  "...God is...A cold hearted, jealous, malicious God, yes, but not a loving one."

          Wow. I find your words sad and agonizingly painful. They make me think of a person who was brutalized by someone who claimed to love GOD. They make me wonder if torture, abuse and malicious tact was used in pounding the idea of God into the person writing them.

          GOD IS LOVING. GOD DOES CARE. GOD FORGIVES, even harsh words like the ones you've written here. How do I know?

          I forgive you and I could only do so because GOD GRANTS me the Grace to extend HIS LOVE TOWARD you. GOD's MERCY EXTENDS beyond whatever hatred, bitterness or anguish lies buried in the depths of your soul.

          HE IS not, the misrepresented object of your pain. Whoever caused you to be filled with such animosity toward GOD, that person will have to face THE CREATOR one day for whatever may have been done. If you can bring yourself to forgive whatever horrors you were made to endure at the hands of whomever misrepresented HIM, GOD WILL HEAL whatever pain motivates your harsh statements.

          I pray HIS HEALING HAND rests upon you, and HIS LOVING SPIRIT BREATHES new life into your heart, body, mind, soul and broken spirit. I pray all this through CHRIST JESUS, Amen.

          smile

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Amen.

      30. Highland Terrier profile image62
        Highland Terrierposted 4 years ago

        Given the state of the world at the moment where religion is concerned, where every single day someone is slaughter, injuried, maimed, imprisoned and unbelieveable  atrocities are visited on individuals by believers in the name of their God, it would seem to me that those who believe must as a matter of urgency PROVE beyond a shadow of doubt the existence of this God.


        What next atrocity is waiting for us in the name of God.

        One thing is certain some one will be murder in his name this week, some where in the world.
        Blind faith must not be the only answer. Prove of Gods existance must be provided if he is the reason that the atrocity was committed.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Finally, a breath of fresh air. Well said, Highland Terrier!

        2. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Hello Highland Terrier!

          You said:

          Given the state of the world at the moment where religion is concerned, where every single day someone is slaughter, injuried, maimed, imprisoned and unbelieveable  atrocities are visited on individuals by believers in the name of their God, it would seem to me that those who believe must as a matter of urgency PROVE beyond a shadow of doubt the existence of this God.

          If by "those who believe..." you are directing the comment to those who commit the "unbelievable atrocities... in the name of their God..." Then I would agree. Because those individuals are not actually following GOD, or doing HIS WILL; they are more than likely doing their own will and hiding behind the name of GOD. However, you can rest assured that unless they repent of their dealings, acts of violence, horror or crime, they will not only be brought to task as a result of those actions, but also for using THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME as their veil of deception.

          I wouldn't want to be that person. ...not even for a moment...

          You also said, "Prove of Gods existance must be provided if he is the reason that the atrocity was committed."

          You are misinterpreting and misunderstanding. GOD DOES NOT ADVOCATE EVIL. No exceptions. Whatever evil atrocities said to be done in HIS NAME, are not! Worse still, atrocities are NOT DONE IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS WILL. These acts are criminal, and the people who commit them are best to be brought to justice here on earth rather than in the PRESENCE of GOD. They will have no excuse and no whimsical accusations to protect them IN HIS FACE.

          GOD BLESS you, Highland Terrier.
          smile

          1. Brian in Canada profile image60
            Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied ot racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive towards children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.

            1. EmVeeT profile image80
              EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You say, "... organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience."

              Organized religion was never GOD'S plan. Organized religion is man's invention.

              smile

              1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Makes sense since man invented God. It is only natural he should invent organized religion, too.

              2. Brian in Canada profile image60
                Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Here is your loving, forgiving God at work:

                (Number 15 32:36) A man is found by chldren to be collecting sticks on the sabbath. The man is confined until it can be decided what should be done with him. 'And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death'. The hapless man was stones to death at the order of God. What a wonderful, loving God this is - he had a man murdered for collecting sticks. Sticks! Its not like the man stole a loaf of bread or raped a woman. The man might have been collecting them to keep himself and his family warm at night. Why murder him for this? What a tale of morality and love!  Why didn't God just appear before the man and scare him into not collecting sticks instead of having him murdered in such a barbaric manner? You know, its tales like this that make me wonder if Lucifer isn't the more sane one and wasn't in fact kicked out of heaven for possibly being moral and good. God surely is not!

                1. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Dearest Brian in Canada,

                  You say,

                  Why didn't God just appear before the man and scare him into not collecting sticks instead of having him murdered in such a barbaric manner?

                  I will not offer you an explanation, because I was not there and I don't know the finer details. However, I can assure you that you are free to ask GOD when you see HIM. HE WILL have a plausible response for your question.

                  What I can say is that you are quoting from The Old Testament. In that portion of GOD'S Covenant with those HE CHOSE to know HIM better grace did not yet exist on the basis that it was granted in The New Testament. In other words, The Old Testament is filled with the laws that GOD laid down, in order to make humankind understand that without HIS GRACE we are all dead. Something as simple as "collecting sticks" was considered a breaking of the law... and yes, was punishable by death.

                  The New Testament is a whole different story. JESUS DIED so that each of us has the option of repenting of our mistakes and beginning fresh and new each and every day. However, many individuals take the Gracious Mercy of GOD to mean HE CAN BE judged, belittled, mocked and called evil.

                  The way GOD WORKS, HE  PROVIDES Examples for everything HE HAS ESTABLISHED, just as a KING would do.

                  In ancient times, it was not unnatural or uncommon for a person to be killed simply for trying to speak to the reigning King out of order, or without permission, or being spoken to. This didn't even require the breaking of a law... and this (King) was only an ordinary man. Why shouldn't GOD ESTABLISH Laws that HE EXPECTS humankind to keep. Thing is, once it became abundantly clear that humankind could not possibly keep the laws HE SET, HE CAME to PAY THE DEBT of sin for all who realize the burden of keeping the law to be too heavy to carry on the shoulders of mere mortals. JESUS CAME TO DIE so we (you, I) don't have to die for breaking the law ~ provided we recognize that the law was broken and we repent for doing so.

                  That is a forgiving GOD. For all that you say HE is not. Consider how BLESSED you are: you have THE SHED BLOOD of JESUS, WHO WAS GOD INCARNATE, OFFERED up for your sins... so you don't have to pay for your own mistakes. Yes. HE IS A FORGIVING GOD and A GENEROUS ONE as well.

                  Emveet.

                2. unitify profile image78
                  unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Did he really have him murdered?  Maybe God, being all knowing, was just saying what he already knew.

                  1. EmVeeT profile image80
                    EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Unitify, I just went to Numbers 15, to look up the circumstance. Here is what the Chapter says before the circumstance in which the man was stoned to death occurred:

                    (These verses are taken from THE KING JAMES VERSION of THE HOLY BIBLE ~Brian in Canada's favorite version...) ~(these verses are Public domain... please note the italicized portions, I have italicized them for the sake of emphasis...)

                    22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the Lord hath spoken unto Moses,

                    23 Even all that the Lord hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the Lord commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;

                    24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

                    25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance:

                    26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.

                    27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

                    28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

                    The answer is plain: GOD GRANTED a FORGIVENESS to anyone who sinned in ignorance. HE EVEN MADE PROVISION so that the entire population would know the error was made in ignorance (not on purpose) and HE REQUIRED the priesthood to ensure the offering for sin was properly secured, so the offending individual did NOT HAVE TO PAY for the mistake.

                    If you don't mind, read on: (Still in Numbers Chapter 15: verses 30, 31) ~ All emphasis mine...

                    30 [b]But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously,
                    whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

                    31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

                    In other words, the person who committed the sin of rebellion [i]against GOD on purpose
                    was ]b]responsible for that sin and the payment of consequence for it[/b]; because this was a direct affront to THE LIVING GOD.

                    GOD didn't have him murdered... GOD ESTABLISHED THE LAW and that law was punishable by death for those who meant to mock GOD, in rebellion, saying, "I'm not going to listen to you...". Since GOD, in The Old Testament was establishing HIS LAWS with HIS People, and A SUBSTITUTIONARY DEATH had not yet been provided for those who SINNED ON PURPOSE, the man was required to pay his debt of sin and rebellion.

                    The NEW TESTAMENT differs in that JESUS HAS PAID THE DEBT of SIN for everyone...and every single person on the face of the planet has a choice to accept that OFFERING OF BLOOD that is required as a consequence to sin, up until he/she takes a very last breath. Once this life ends though, so does the offer... and the debt of sin is due from the individual, with no substitutions. Therefore, GOD, proving humankind is wicked... not to HIMSELF but to humankind... set aside The Old Covenant ~ giving humans an 'up-to-the-last-minute' opportunity to repent of all sin(s), even if they don't remember what those sins are (because they are recorded in heaven, but most people couldn't keep track if they tried...) yet, if that person repents, HE ACCEPTS THE BLOOD of JESUS as their DEBT CONSOLIDATION/REDEMPTION PRICE. If that person can't be bothered with THE OFFERING, neither will GOD be bothered with forgiveness.

                    The choice is ours.

                    Regarding the 'poor man who got stoned for collecting sticks...' GOD DEALS with the heart of man, not appearance. This individual was clearly breaking the laws of GOD in rebellion, and GOD KNEW he would repeatedly sin against HIM, (probably in increasingly antagonistic ways); rather than grant him an opportunity to hurt or drag others down with him, GOD made him an instrument of purpose, showing all those who knew him and surrounded him, sin has a dire consequence.

                    The man was not a victim, he was an instigator, and GOD WAS NOT GOING TO ALLOW him to lower the standard of the law.

                    MAY GOD BLESS you...
                    smile

                    1. unitify profile image78
                      unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Very well put.  I don't claim to know all of  why God does what he does. But I believe God has good reason.  By faith and be his word, I trust him to be a loving God.  I believe planting the seed of his word is commanded of us.  And if anyone wants to talk about God with me, I am glad to do it.  I won't however, have a heated debate about it.   All I can do then is pray for that person.  Thanks for your response.

                  2. EmVeeT profile image80
                    EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Deleted

                    1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                      A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Firstly, regarding God not punishing those who act ignorantly, I have a scripture that shows Him doing otherwise. I'll just summarize it, but you can find it in 1 Kings 13.

                      Basically there was a "man of God" who God commanded not to eat and drink in a certain place. Then, however, an old prophet lied to him, knowing he would trust his words because he was a prophet and claimed that an angel changed the rules, and it was ok for him to eat and drink in that place. The man, believing God changed His mind, ate and drank in the place he wasn't supposed to, and knowing he'd been deceived, God still sent a lion to kill Him, anyway. Hm... I find that to be a troublesome contradiction.

                      Secondly, for a God who supposedly created us with "free will" who didn't want "robots" to worship HIm, why were the punishments so sever for people who wanted to live, well, freely? I don't know if the idea of God Christians have and the actions of the God of the OT match up from a more objective, less emotional/subjective point of view...



                      There are a few problems with that idea.

                      1) Why is it that the only way a debt for this God be forgiven through the shedding of blood? Why would a God, who can literally do anything, make the only way that you can be set free from the mistakes that you make by the suffering of someone else (be it human, animal, or what have you?). (Why is making a mistake, whether purposefully or by accident, so worthy of punishment to God, anyway?) If I had the ability to create a Universe with anything I want and all the rules that I want, why would I be so unforgiving without a sacrifice, and why would I make the sacrifice be so gruesome? It sounds simply like ancient thinking/superstition to me, concerning life being in the blood. That's just a superstition based on an easily observed fact that if one bleeds out they die.

                      2)What does it mean to have free will? (I'm using "I" in general, not necessarily me personally) If I'm supposedly a naive creation come from an all knowing being, with some of his characteristics, including pride, why is it so shocking that I might think I know it all? All I see with my eyes is what I trust because "God" gave me a brain and I use it well. If I see His creation, but for me personally, it doesn't lead to an intelligent designer, and if I find it hard to imagine God being how Christians say He is when observing their actions, why should I be so severly punished? Much of what I do in my life is affected by other people. If I just can't find Jesus and this idea of God plausible, why does God punish me for such an honest stance to take? Even if I do believe He is real, but decide I'd like to live my life my own way... Why did an all powerful, confident, secure God make a rule that I NEED to worship/believe in/obey His every rule or else? Is that not the attitude of a tyrant? If God in this sense is real, is He really love?

                      1. EmVeeT profile image80
                        EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Whoa! A Thousand Words,

                        Your questions are valid and good ones. Unfortunately, the only way you can receive answers is to invest in a true search for GOD yourself. I could answer some of the questions for you... I could... but honestly, you are not ready for the answers. You've already developed a mindset that leaves little to no room for humility. You've decided you are above GOD. But, no one is....

                        I say this because I believe that, if you were given an invitation to Buckingham Palace, I doubt very much you would approach the Queen with the same disrespectful attitude you extend toward THE LIVING GOD. Yet, she is a mortal with a Title. HE IS GOD.

                        You look down your nose at GOD's actions; but GOD IS GOD. HE IS GOOD. When you are faced with HIS GLORY you will be utterly astonished; and you will wonder why or how you could have ever thought, spoken or acted as you did toward HIM.

                        In the meantime, HE GIVES you free will.... You asked about free will in your first question, and...  You are exercising it; and will probably have more to say about HIM once you read this (though your indignation ~if this post activates such ~ should be directed at me, not at HIM). You say things that are... well let's say unkind things about HIM, as though you are better than HE IS and would never do the things HE HAS DONE; yet there is a universal chance, you've probably done worse with less of a reason than any of HIS REASONS.

                        You already exercise free will, if and when, you lead a life in which there are no rules or rules you choose to break, so do anarchists, so do rebels, so do delinquents, so do criminals. Of course, you can exercise free will without being violent or selfish; but that is harder than you would ever consider possible. Other than that, communities have rules, so do businesses, so do families, so does any agency that cares to keep a standard, so do institutions that plan on existing for extended periods of time.

                        I'm sorry... I've said much more than I intended... I will not answer your all questions; in fact, I will not answer any of your questions... as you said, you have "... a brain and (you) use it well...".

                        Therefore, go ahead... go for it... when you see HIM, you tell HIM......in the meantime, live as you like. This is your choice.. This is your inalienable right.  You are free to make any choice you desire.

                        GOD BLESS you...
                        smile

                      2. dianetrotter profile image82
                        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Hi a thousand words, I believe I read that you said you were a faithful Christian at one time.  If so, then you knew the answers to these questions I assume.  Did something happen to change your thinking?

              3. A Thousand Words profile image81
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Western organized religion tells you that the God you profess is actually a plausible one, which I can debate to an extent from multiple respects. I can elaborate if you wish.

                Anywho, personally, I think the Tao is the most accurate explanation of some sort of transcendent existence. It's so unlike "civilized" humanity, it's ridiculous. It's like the Universe itself is "god," beautiful, yet impersonal, and we can examine its ways and become one with it and master of our own selves. it's a path that anyone can follow, and its the path from which all things flow. It is as infinite as the Universe because it isn't separate fro the Universe. It doesn't seek credit for everything that flows from it, and doesn't demand worship, etc, etc. I don't like labels, so I won't really become a Taoist, but I would love to visit some Taoists and learn more from them personally.

          2. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Anyone can say he/she is a Christian.  When the behavior is contrary, there is question about the authenticity of that person's faith.  Yes, Christians sin; however, the Holy Spirit convicts us and causes us to be ashamed before God and repent.  Example - the mafia were Catholics.  Being a member of a church does not make a person a Christian.  Sitting in the garage doesn't make one a car.

      31. Jerry Hulse profile image79
        Jerry Hulseposted 4 years ago

        YOU HAVE TO PROVE HE IS NOT REAL BUT HOW CAN YOU BUT KEEP ON CONVINCING YOURSELF BUT DON'T CEMENT YOURSELF IN WHEN YOU DIE TO KEEP JUDGEMENT DAY FROM DISTURBING YOUR GRAVE.

        JUST LOOK AT YOUR OWN BODY AND THE HUNDREDS OF MILES OF BLOOD CAPILLARIES AND THE WAY IT IS DESIGNED WITH AN IMMUNE SYSTEM TO KEEP IT ALIVE AND WHAT ABOUT HEALING ITSELF FROM A WOUND?

        You can believe what you will but you better not miss Gabriel blowing his trumpet and he is probably practicing right now!

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          We know that's the result of evolution, not some magical sky daddy waving his magic hand.



          Religious fantasies are irrelevant, but it's typical of believers to threaten us with them.

          1. calynbana profile image86
            calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            We actually do not know that it is the result of evolution. What is currently known about evolution and the beginnings of life make that theory very questionable really.

            http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cro … ife-began/

            I like this article, there are a couple logical failings on the writers part but he does describe the situation in easy terms.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Please speak for yourself when stating you do not know evolution.

              1. calynbana profile image86
                calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Umm I was using your original wording.

              2. unitify profile image78
                unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I somewhat believed in evolution that is until I studied it at UT. This is when I realized how foolish it was.  Talk about reaching.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  "Somewhat believing" in evolution is not the same as understanding evolution. And, you're saying you studied at a university that showed how foolish evolution was? A Christian university, perhaps?

                  1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                    Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Evolution is no longer a theory but a proven fact, like the fact the earth revolves around the sun. Fortunately for mankind, thanks to the rise of secularism, believing in evolution will not get you killed like it almost did Galileo when he asserted the earth revolves around the sun and not vice-versa. However, it will take a few more hundred years, like the 250-years it took for a Pope to express regret on how the church handled Galileo, before the church catches up with science and fact.

                  2. unitify profile image78
                    unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I somewhat believed it before I studied it for a year.   Lots of dead ends, speculations, theories and propaganda.  No real proof.

                    1. unitify profile image78
                      unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      The University of Texas at Austin.

                    2. unitify profile image78
                      unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Also Studied astronomy for a 3 semester.  More dead ends.  Lots of space though.  How could you know what is or is not out there?  The Search for intelligent life.  At least in this area of study.  The "so call experts" admit that they are measuring intelligence  bases on "Human Intelligence"  Imagine that.  To actually believe that what man can thing or prove according the this little bitty plant is all there is and we assume we must be the wisest in all the universe. How arrogant. don't you think.

                      1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                        A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        The way you speak about science is the same way many atheists and non-religious people think about religion. Here's the difference. Science, while some act as though everything is 100% perfectly right and infallible, most true scientists will admit that science is a progressive entity. Scientists are often learning more and more about the world around us, but don't need to rush and fill in the gaps with something metaphysical because it can't be explained. They "fill in the gaps" with theories, and are constantly either proving or disproving them, often leaving them as gaps and doing years and years of research before claiming anything is concrete, and if it's disproven, studying the world around them until a more plausible answer surfaces.

                        When you insert ideas that aren't physically provable, you're jumping to concrete conclusions, while they cannot actually be concretely proven. Scientists should typically avoid that, though dogma, jumping to conclusions, error, etc, can be found in the religious as well as the non-religious. Whether or not you can admit this is where the true nature of "humility" lies.

                        Of course there are "gaps." We're only beginning to scratch the surface of how our own bodies work and are still discovering knew species of animals, we've recently found evidence that there was once water on Mars, etc. This world, this Universe is stored with so much beauty and information. Sometimes people come to strange conclusions, many are quite plausible. Some of us consider it possible for there to be something transcendent out there, but have found little proof to say so concretely. That's called honesty, and not being scared into forcing themselves to think something differently because a heavily religious society makes them seem like bad people for not being quick to fill in the unknown with some larger-than-life-super-Cosmic-Sheriff-like entity. 

                        When you put an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-surrounding being into the picture, of course the gaps are more easily filled. Then your questions are "answered," and you feel satisfied that you "know" something. I've heard Christians say things like "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist." That speaks volumes to me. What's harder to do? Christians talk about persecution in this country, but that's a joke. Try being non-religious and see how your family treats you and the rest of society, when the majority of your country has some kind of religious leaning. You lose job interviews, family members shun you, etc, etc. An Atheist person running for president and actually winning is about as likely as a black person winning just 60 years ago. (There's a good article about a woman who was a preacher for years that became an Atheist, and how her community completely shunned her, when I find it I'll post it.)

            2. EmVeeT profile image80
              EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              EXCELLENT ARTICLE. Thank you for this link, Calynbana!!

              GOD BLESS you!
              smile

        2. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          JUST LOOK AT YOUR OWN TEXT. ALL CAPS IS LIKE SHOUTING!!!

          The mechanisms of the immune system and healing process are well-understood, and there is no evidence to suggest they came about from any source other than evolution.

      32. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        Trish, I agree, you can believe in whatever God you want as long as you don't force your beliefs on others, especially children. Science has proven evolution to be true just like they have proven the sun does not revolve around the earth. However, you have the right to not believe this ... as long as you do not force your religious beliefs on others.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Brian, Christians should not be forcing their believes on anyone.  God does not want us to do that.  That is not part of the plan.  If you know of people who are doing this, they are wrong.  Script.ures repeatedly states that each person makes his/her own decision

      33. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        I ask, in candor, want to know what was your turning point.  If you were a Christian, something terrible must have happened to make you change.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          When I was a boy I was active in a pentecostal church. After a few years my parents decided to switch to a baptist chruch. Even though I was deeply involved with both churches (my father hoped I would become a minister) there was something deep inside of me that possessed doubt. As I grew older and began to think for myself, coupled with exposing myself to literature, philosophy and art, I began to realize what a terrible book the bible was and how awful God and Jesus were. George Orwell's brilliant work '1984' really opened my eyes to totalitarianism in politics and religion. I made a promise to myself that I would fight totalitarianism as much as I can.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Brian it sounds like you didn't like going to church when you were young.  Neither did I.  The impact of George Orwell's 1984, a fictional book, is really puzzling.  I heard of the book when I was in junior high and my teachers referred to it as satire.  1984 came and left and, outside of coining a few terms, I don't see how it impacted the world.  Incidentally, I know what goes on in some churches can work your nerves.  I choose to "not" go to those churches.

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I liked going to church when I was young and George Orwell's book is not only a masterpiece of english literature but one of the most refered to and influential books of the 20th Century. You should read it.

          2. EmVeeT profile image80
            EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hey Brian in Canada....

            How are you?

            In reading your little bio I see we came from opposite sides of the spectrum. When I was a child, my parents, who were traditional Catholics, took me to Church, but never really tried to impress anything religious upon me. Their beliefs were simplistic, not complex. Essentially, they didn't understand it all, but they loved JESUS. They passed their love for JESUS onto me.

            As I grew older, and I began to have questions that no one could answer satisfactorily I decided it was my responsibility to find out what I needed and wanted to know. For several years I floundered and grappled with THE WORD of GOD. I had never owned a copy of the Whole Book until THE KING JAMES VERSION. Still, something inside me desired to know GOD. As I acquainted myself with THE BIBLE I began to see a cohesive theme. I began to understand things I had never had access to understanding.

            I'll never forget the first time my eyes were riveted to a verse that suddenly came alive to me, that spoke to me as if GOD HIMSELF were right beside me. In those first years, my family, (especially my husband) fought me on the factors I was beginning to see more clearly, but I was falling more and more in love with the BOOK the brought me to see GOD.

            I didn't bother very much with The Old Testament for the first decade (I guess) except in little bits and pieces, as I could handle them. I had more questions than answers, and no one I knew could help me out. That was when I decided my research needed to go deeper.

            Funny you should mention your hatred for 'totalitarianism'. It's coming to the earth, just as Orwell captured in his book, 1984, exactly as The Book of Revelation predicted it would. I find it interesting that you, who grew up in an atmosphere that recognized the concept of One World Government, One World Religion, One World Leader, would toss that aside to embrace instead a hatred for GOD, just because you were never able to resolve the questions floating in your mind, or the myriad of what would appear to be, inconsistencies.

            I didn't go to Church for the first 27 years of my walk with GOD. And I understand now the politics attached to 'Churches'; still, when I attend it's not for the sake of the Church, but for the sake of the BODY of CHRIST... there is a great difference.

            You said, "I made a promise to myself that I would fight totalitarianism as much as I can."

            Well... get ready then... the world is being prepared for totalitarianism. When things turn, remember what you knew at the first. Prayerfully, you'll get through it all... without too great a loss...

            I would say, "GOD BLESS you," but I know you don't prefer it.
            smile

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is a contradiction.



              Please explain the difference considering the Church and Christ are one and the same?

              1. EmVeeT profile image80
                EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Hey there, Troubled Man,

                It's not a contradiction; but if you want to know more about it, there are plenty of books that address the topic, or it would seem, there are others here who will have an answer for you...

                GOD BLESS you...

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why do so many Christians seem to believe this? People mature and learn and it changes their minds, simple as that. That's what happened to me.

      34. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        Kathleenkat, what did you say about Canadians???!!! We are loved all over the world. I have traveled to nearly every continent and Canadians are beloved everywhere as a peace loving and kind nation. As soon as I tell someone I am from Canada they invariable answer 'Oh, that is a good country!' What country are you from? What you said was ignorant, uncalled for and pathetic.

        1. kathleenkat profile image90
          kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I live just South of the Canadian border, in the USA. We do not "love" Canadians. You saying that "Canadians are loved by everybody" is just as ridiculous in my eyes wink. In my experience, Canadians act with a sense of entitlement. They'll often shout "but I drove all the way from Canada!" if they want you to bend store policy, such as holding an item for them, or giving them a price cut. They will be completely and utterly "shocked" when an American doesn't go out of their way to be nice to them, or give them a deal. They will try to barter price. They will say "in my country, this is false advertising!" They will purchase shoes and clothing, and rip the tags off in the parking lot so they don't have to pay duty. They will buy 18791328 gallons of milk, and fill up an entire truck full of gasoline tanks with our "more affordable" gas (I once saw a Canadian putting gasoline into garbage bags!?!). They trash our border town.

          I am not saying all Canadians are jerks, but all jerks sure seem to be Canadian wink

      35. Gypsy Rose Lee profile image56
        Gypsy Rose Leeposted 4 years ago

        I believe and I look about and see proof everyday of what a world God has made. For me it is enough and I let the Lord guide me each day.

        1. Brian in Canada profile image60
          Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You should be careful how you allow the Loerd to guide you, Gypsy, considering your jealous, insecure Lord asks his followers to commit murder, genocide and rape amongst other things. Really, if the Bible is the 'word of God' then he is one evil God.

          1. EmVeeT profile image80
            EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You said, "...considering your jealous, insecure Lord asks his followers to commit murder, genocide and rape amongst other things. Really, if the Bible is the 'word of God' then he is one evil God..."

            Honestly, Brian, in Canada ... you should be careful what you say about GOD. HE IS MERCIFUL, do remember though, no matter what you say here, the day will come when you shall be held accountable for every word yo speak and write... and for every action you ever take.

      36. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        God is too busy asking his follwers to commit murder, genocide and rape to hear what other people are asking of him. Being evil is a full-time job and considering how religion poisons everything, God is a very busy dicator. Was he listening to the poor children at Auschwitz when they were being tortured and murdered? No. Actually , the Catholic Church supported the Nazi's so God was busy listening to the Catholics, I guess.

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You said, "Actually , the Catholic Church supported the Nazi's so God was busy listening to the Catholics, I guess."

          So did the Governments of several Countries.

          No worries. Each and every individual will be held accountable for every act of murder, genocide and rape, just as the comments made against HIM, will haunt any who make them for all eternity, and the actions of those who committed vile acts will haunt them.

          GOD BLESS you, truly... I pray HE BLESS you, Amen.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            It's also actually a little more complicated.  I had never heard about the Catholic Church and the Nazis.  When I read Brian's post I Googled.  I tried to skim the info but there is quite a bit there.  It seemed to be the Catholic Church was involved in politics.

            1. Brian in Canada profile image60
              Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The Catholic Church supported the Nazi's before, during and after they commited genocide.  In fact, the Catholic Church in Rome use to positively acknowledge Hitlers birthday every year he was in power. In 'Mein Kampf' Hitler comments many times, in fact early in the book, about doing God's work. The Catholic Church, who would ban any book they did not like at the drop of a hat, were shown the book and refused to ban it. What is more, when a SS man or a soldier in the German army swore allegiance they did so to Hitler and 'Almighty God'. Around their waste they wore a belt with the words 'Gott mit uns' "God with us". There was a close relationship between the Nazi's and the Vatican. Maybe it was in the Old Testament where Hitler learned about genocide. Who knows, maybe God spoke to Hitler and told him to kill the Jews amongst others.

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                And this in my eyes that supports everything that I have been saying about Organized religion via the RCC as being the beast that rose up out of the sea in Rev 13. 
                   The truth that was burried was that everything Jesus said concerning prophesy did in fact happen exactly as he said that it would.   The church of Rome FIRST started misinterpreting everything that Jesus said concerning prophesy.

                  This evidentally was also a part of Gods plan.  For it is written that it would be thus.

                1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                  Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry, you're saying the extermination of the Jews was apart of the Christian Gods plan? By the way, Nietzsche predicted the rise of the Nazi's and a murderous rampage, too, and he was an athiest. Nietzsche is a more credible source as he was not threatening anyone with Hell for not believing him or asking them to believe in a silly myth, unlike your Jesus, who, by the way, is the wickedest man in the Bible.

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    As you say ...   that can be true for you.
                    I see something else.

      37. BobbiRant profile image80
        BobbiRantposted 4 years ago

        Prove the wind exists to me then.  I Cannot see it!  This is possibly one of the same old, same old, questions posed from about the 16th Century onward.   LOL

        1. heatblast92 profile image83
          heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          A weathervane should suffice to justify the wind's existence, mate. smile

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          actually you can see the wind just fine by staining it with whatever substance and watching it move. You can even make wind in a  lab or even at home by having two spaces with different temperatures.

        3. heatblast92 profile image83
          heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          So it would be absurd to not believe in something that can result from your own doing, wouldn't it? smile

        4. A Thousand Words profile image81
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Not the best example, however.

          Anyone can feel the wind. They don't have to believe in a special book. They don't have to say a special prayer. They can simply step outside, and wait a little while, and they might feel a little breeze. Or someone living in an area where tornados are rampant might see the destruction high speed winds possess. The wind doesn't need to be seen in order to be proven. Though, we do have instruments with which we can actually see it. But everyone can indiscriminately feel it. There's not a specific group of people that can lay claim to the wind. It is for all to appreciate or to fear, without question of its existence.

      38. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        It may seem convenient to blame God for the Catholic Church's participation, whatever level it was but their failures should not be blamed on God any more than the coverups of the child molestation.  Today I'm hearing "Coptic Christians" for the first time.  It seems they are responsible for what happened in Cairo.

        There have been pretenders, dupers, leeches, and whatever you might call them who have done many things under the cover of being a Christian.  The Jim Jones tragedy was horrible but could have been avoided if people had taken the responsibility to learn the characteristics of a fanatic or fake.

        Murders and other crimes have been committed by "Christians" and non-Christians.  Those crimes were/are committed by their own human free will.  They will be judged accordingly.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Then, why don't you take responsibility to learn that Christianity is based on a fake?

      39. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        Dianetrotter, you are supposing two things which you cannot know. First, you don't know if God did or did not command Christians to commit murder or other crimes against humans. The Bible is very clear about God willingness to ask his followers to commit genocide, murder and rape. He could still be asking his followers to do it today, how could you know he wasn't?

        Secondly,  how do you know Jim Jones was a fake? Maybe God told him directly to do the things he did. As I have explained, your God is a murderous one and is certainly not above asking people to commit atrocities. You cannot say with any certainty that old J.J. was a fake. Evil? Yes. A fake? No.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          In the Old Testament, peoples (groups) were punished for various reasons.  I agree.  In the New Testament, this is not the case.  Jesus Christ came to be the propiation for sin so what took place in the OT no longer occurred.

          If God does not exist, as you say, he couldn't have told anyone anything.   I do know how to match people's actions with the Word of God. 
          Jim Jones cursed God in closed session, and had followers do the same.  He was having sex with them.
          Provers 12: 6 A righteous man is cautious in friendship, but the way of the wicked leads them astray.
          Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying,'I am the Christ,' and will lead many astray

          2 Timothy 3:13 But wicked men and juggling impostors shall advance in evil, leading and being led astray

          BTW, I'm not arguing with you Brian just responding to your comments.  I want to be careful because I don't want to argue.   Pease!

      40. Rhonda D Johnson profile image79
        Rhonda D Johnsonposted 4 years ago

        The Earth centered creation we read about in the Bible bears no resemblance to the physical universe.  That is proof that the low level regional manager we read about in the Bible had no hand in the creation of the real universe.  That is not to say that the universe may not have been created by a real deity, but the god of the Bible is NOT the Creator of the universe.

        Still, you are right.  Christians are charged with proselytizing the world. They like to point out that atheists promote their belief (or lack thereof) too.  But atheists and agnostics don't have a written creed with a mandate from the god of nonbelief to make disciples of all nations.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on them.

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The creation account in Genesis correctly describes 6 major eras and over a dozen specific creations in chronological order from the 'surface of the earth' perspective established in verse 2.

          1. Rhonda D Johnson profile image79
            Rhonda D Johnsonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            The creation story describes what things look like from an ignorant Earth-bound view, not an omniscient divine view.  What six eras are you referring to?

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Day 1: Verses 1 through 5 - Hadean Eon - Age when oceans formed and atmosphere became translucent

              Day 2: Verses 6 through 8 - Archaen Eon - Age when water cycle and oxygenated atmosphere were established

              Day 3: Verses 9 through 13 - Proterozoic Eon - Age when continents formed; Paleozoic Era - Plantlife on land

              Day 4: Verses 14 through 19 - Paleozoic Era - Age when continents moved from beneath planet to between poles

              Day 5: Verses 20 through 23 - Mesozoic Era - Age when life from the sea thrived ultimately leading to birds

              Day 6: Verses 24 through 31 - Cenozoic Era - Age when modern mammals and humans developed

              1. Rhonda D Johnson profile image79
                Rhonda D Johnsonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Why the Genesis story does not conform to the five (not sic) geological eons.
                There were no oceans  in the beginning (Hadaen eon)  So the whole creation story  crumbles when it says God created the land out of the water.  During this first eon there were only rocks and the Earth was extremely hot.  The name Hadaen comes from the Greek word we know as Hades to describe the hellish conditions at that time
                I could say more but this is worth an entire hub.  Stay tunes, I will work on it.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  First, technically, there are only four eons. I used the term 'major eras', which can be misleading since the geologic timescale also uses 'era'.

                  Second, I specified the end of the Hadean/beginning of Archean. The 'rocks' you're referring to are not the continental land masses we know as land today. This is the crust of the earth. Because the earth's core consists of denser metals and the rockier material is towards the outside, it's believed that the entire planet early on was magma. When the planet was large enough to retain its own atmosphere it began to trap the gasses spewing from within the planet as it continued to accrete (if that's a word). Much of this was water vapor.

                  All of the earth's oceans at one time was trapped in the atmosphere as water vapor because it couldn't escape, but also couldn't condense due to the surface still being way too hot. The water vapor in the atmosphere helped cool the surface. Eventually the surface cooled enough to harden, the vapor condensed, and the oceans formed.

                  The first stable continents as we know them today didn't form until the beginning of the Proterozoic eon, about 2.5 billion years ago, over a billion years after the oceans.

                  The state of the earth as described in Genesis1:2 describes the late Hadean/early Archean eon. We know the oceans came first and existed by the beginning of the Archean because the water cycle developed early and because the oxygenated atmosphere was created by some of the earliest forms of life, Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae), which could only live in the oceans.

                  1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                    Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The Bible is like the Nation Enquirer, there are some hints at actual events but they are muddled between nonesense, superstition and pure fiction. The Bible is not a reliable source for the historical or the moral and anyone who takes it as such is delusional at best.

                    1. twosheds1 profile image60
                      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Yeah, and the Bible doesn't have topless photos of Kate Middleton.

                      Or does it?

                    2. calynbana profile image86
                      calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      I have never heard somebody refer to Jesus as a wicked man. Whether theist, atheist or agnostic. Could you explain your reasons for thinking he was so wicked?

                      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        You believe Jesus is God - yes?

                      2. A Thousand Words profile image81
                        A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I think that evil is a harsh word. I would just say he wasn't perfect and had some questionable traits.

                        1)He basically taught that if someone wasn't doing something "useful," they were useless, and worthy of being thrown out, as such. That shouldn't be the attitude of an all-loving God in man form, especially when talking about a human with a living "soul." (The fig tree parable)

                        2)He didn't understand the default nature of man is to question (and so a lack of knowledge there) and to expect all men to believe him simply on his word was erroneous then, and is the same now.

                        3) He was completely rude to the Pharisees, and other men in positions of authority, who were simply by-products of the nature of the original covenant set up between them and "God." I think if he had approached them differently, there would've been more men who would've considered his words, but his complete lack of respect, which doesn't line up with the scripture in Romans about all authority being put there by God, caused his own downfall.

                        4) He used a lot of mystical words and speech, opening the door to much confusion later in his followers.

                        There's probably some other stuff, I just haven't thought about it in a while.

          2. scottcgruber profile image93
            scottcgruberposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Only with some extremely creative misinterpretation. You could do the same with any other creation myth. 

            Dâyuni'sï, the earth-diving water beetle in the Cherokee creation myth, is kinda sorta like the uplift of continents from the seafloor. Rangi and Papa, the embracing sky-father and earth-mother of the Maori creation myth, could be likened to the "Snowball Earth" glaciation periods of the Neoproterozoic Era. The torn Sun-placenta of the Mandé creation myth is a bit like the protoplanetary disk forming into planets.

            You can twist ancient myths to fit the facts if you like, but in doing so you are missing the point of both the myth and the science.

            1. A Thousand Words profile image81
              A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you.

            2. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              True, you can twist vague passages around to try to make them seem to apply to this event or that, but it's another thing entirely to specifically list 13 creations and 6 major eras in the right order. You can only go so far with imaginative interpretation. But when you're talking about just 31 verses correctly describing in the right chronological order, not just actual events in earth's history, but the key events in terms of being relevant to life on earth and humans in particular, then dismissing it as nothing more than misinterpretation is simply inadequate.

        2. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Rhonda, I don't understand your first statement about the earth .... physical universe.  Please explain what is troubling or discrepant.  Thank you!

          1. Rhonda D Johnson profile image79
            Rhonda D Johnsonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hi Diane,
            The physical universe is the planets,stars and galaxies.  In the Bible the Earth is the center of creation and the sun and moon are hung as lights in the sky.  The ancient writers believed the sky is a physical canopy or vault which they called the firmament in Genesis and the circle in Isaiah. I have to interpret what they meant  by what they believed, not by  what we now know is true.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Rhonda, I don't know who specifically the ancient writers were.  I know earth is the planet that God chose to populate with people.  Astronauts have not found life on other planets.  Ancient writers, I'm sure, wrote based on the limited information that they had.  What is in the Bible has not changed.  Gotta go to work not but this does bring up an interesting point about people writing anything at any given time.  They write based on what they know/believe to be true.  Just because they believe it doesn't make it true.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                However, the Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God. This is the issue. Either what they wrote is correct, or it isn't in that light, and as such, can it really be considered to be inspired by a supposedly "perfect" God? Of course words written by men will be incorrect if they don't even have the proper tools to observe the Universe. But if one claims that words are inspired by God, should they not have important inside knowledge?

                If one can approach the Bible devoid of emotional attachments, and a bias towards it's validity, there would be way less people interested in it, and people would recognize it simply as a book of wisdom... like any other book of wisdom.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  What they wrote is correct.

                  Genesis 1 correctly describes creation all the way up to the discovery of horticulture around 8000 BC. Then events specified in the next 10 chapters (through Babel) line up chronologically with actual events in human history down to the number of centuries in between, and offer an explanation to abrupt advances in human technology and craftsmanship in that era.

                  1656 years between Adam and Flood, Babel about 100 years later
                  Cain banished by the time Adam was 130, so roughly 1500 years from banishment to flood

                  Ubaid culture in Mesopotamia lasted roughly 1500 years beginning with the establishment of the first city, Eridu, around 5300 BC. According to Genesis 4, Cain built a city.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu

                  Ubaid culture came to abrupt end around 4000 BC. In Ur, another Sumerian city, Ubaid period is sealed off with a 'sterile deposit' (flood).
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur#Prehistory

                  About a century later came the 5.9 kiloyear event where the Sahara transformed into a desert. This triggered massive migrations much like what's described at Babel.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.9_kiloyear_event

                  In the centuries to follow civilization dawned in Sumer (Mesopotamia), then Egypt to the west, then the Indus Valley to the east, then the Akkadians to the north, and so on. Each of these places showing sudden advances in technology and craftsmanship, and each having their own unique language.

                  1. twosheds1 profile image60
                    twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Summer of my German Soldier references historical events, too, but that doesn't make it 100 percent true.

                    1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                      HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      The point is the bible is being dismissed here based on the idea that what it describes is inaccurate. Don't be so quick to dismiss it. The likelihood of Bronze age humans correctly listing the events of creation in chronological order, and the key events that led to the dawning of human civilization over the course of many centuries, is remote at best without divine intervention or the capability of time travel.

                      1. twosheds1 profile image60
                        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I followed some of your links. Re: Eridu, are you familiar with the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy? It's where an alleged sharpshooter shoots a bunch of holes in the side of a barn. Where most shots are clustered, he draws a bullseye. David Rohl, the Egyptologist who alleges that the Tower of Babel was in Eridu, seems to be committing the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. It is bad science to start with a conclusion, then find evidence that supports it, especially with something that is very obviously meant to be a parable.

                        You also seem to be commiting it with your interpretation of Biblical accounts.

                      2. 0
                        Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        I'm going to honest, I don't think your "Bronze age humans correctly listing the events of creation in chronological order" is that impressive. If you remember our conversation of several months ago, your insight has impressed me before, but I think you are stretching things here.

      41. BobbiRant profile image80
        BobbiRantposted 4 years ago

        Maybe people can 'feel' a presence of a higher being also.  Feel is not the best of examples.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image81
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Physically feeling something, like a breeze, or a burn, or the warmth of our significant other, and "feeling" something emotionally, some kind of like a warm "feeling" on the inside, are two different things, love.

          One is physical, one's more of an emotional experience, however satisfying, and isn't considered evidence for anything outside of yourself.

      42. 61
        aruninaction01posted 4 years ago

        Day 7: Verses 32 through infinity - Zombie Era - Age when people kill people in the name of God and Religion and turn to zombies and then fight again

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Kind of. Day 7 God rested. But day 8 is when God created Adam, the first human capable of behaving outside of God's will unlike anything else in God's creation. From that point on, yes, people have killed in the name of God, religion, A Catcher in the Rye, the neighbor's dog, etc ....

          1. Brian in Canada profile image60
            Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Adam more certainly never existed and the story of the Garden of Eden is a childish fairy tale. Evolution has been proven and nothing stunts human developement and progress like continuing to believe in these Bronze Age myths written for the poor, illiterate people in Persia. Not in China where people had science and could read. No, only where people could be taken advantage of and their stupidity expoited.

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I take it you're referring to the assumption that Adam was the first human? He wasn't. Genesis makes that clear. Now that we know the history it's kind of hard to miss. Like the 'others' that Cain feared would kill him when he was banished. Humans were created during day 6 in Genesis 1, and the specifics given there match up exactly with what homo sapiens actually did; they were fruitful and multiplied, they populated and subdued the earth, and they established themselves as the dominant species in the animal kingdom.

              Persia's a bit too far to the west, but I get what you're saying. They too have a similar account of the 'first man' and the garden. Also, technically, the civilizations of mesopotamia were the first to have scientific practices, long before China.

              Adam was created, I guestimate, around 5500 BC. Up until this point, humans already inhabited every inhabitable portion of the earth, and they all lived very similar lifestyles to the more primal indigenous cultures still found today; aborigines, African tribal cultures, island bound cultures, etc. They were not male-dominant, there was no class stratification, and they had no interest in owning possessions or land. The very idea of ownership was foreign to them, especially pieces of the earth.

              The introduction of Adam was the introduction of free will/sharpened sense of ego/individuality. We see the first signs of male-dominance there in Mesopotamia. We also see the first city-states with a centralized government and labor carried out by the poorer masses. And we see the first war-like behavior of defending and conquering land. This is what the creation of Adam was.

              1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Look, even if Adam did exist - which there is zero scientific proof that he did as is consistent with all of the myth book called 'Genesis' - it does not prove there is a God nor does it afford justification of the Biblical claims. Any scientific evidence you mention works just as well without God and is certainly not depleted or put into jeopardy when you subtract God from the evidence. By the way, there are some 3,000 Gods in the history of the world, and they all can provide the same claims and proof that the Christian one can; meaning, very poorly to insulting to science and human integrity.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I never claimed this proved the existence of God. This all started because the bible was being dismissed through the claim that it's already been proven inaccurate. I am simply illustrating that is not the case.

                  Just about everything works without God, you're right. God's creation doesn't take any upkeep. Props to the designer. But there are a handful of things that do not have a causal explanation, namely the origin of the universe itself (where that singularity came from), the phenomena of life itself, and the human mind (as in, not the physical brain).

                  Take evolution, for example. This only works if the default state of a living thing is to 'want' to live. Biological matter is defined as alive when it exhibits homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction. We have yet to define life beyond these biological processes. We just know that when something is alive it exhibits behavior that keeps it alive. The phenomena of life itself originates from within the organism, yet is not the conscious choice of the organism.

                  Most of the primary religion share commonalities for a reason. Those descendants of Adam were dispersed in all directions around the world at Babel. I equate this to the 5.9 kiloyear event (3900 BC) that really did trigger massive human migrations, and that really did come just before the dawning of the first civilizations, Sumer, Egypt, Indus Valley, Akkad, Persia, Greece, Rome, and China. There's a reason why all the major cultures of the world share common flood myths and the like. It's all related.

                  1. Brian in Canada profile image60
                    Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You continue to refer to Adam as if his existence is a scientic fact, which it is not. You can replace 'Adam' with 'unicorns' and have as much proof to assert the claim. Adam never existed and it completely dicredits any valid points you make afterwards.

                    There is no definite explanation to the origions of the universe and our understanding of the human brain is woefully limited. Sure. However, the universe and earth is a troubled one at best. The earth is but a slight nudge out of its orbit from entire destruction something a comet or large asteroid could certainly do. Some design. What is more, the Andromeda galaxy is currently approaching the Milky Way at 100 to 140 kilometers per second. So, in 4.5 billion years (only double the earths age) it will collide with our galaxy and certainly mean the end of life on earth. Once again, some design. Oh, that is if the sun does not burn out first and subsequently end life on earth. Again, brilliant design. If this was the creation of one of the Gods then surely he is inept at best and does not deserve praise. Clearly the universe was not the invention of 'intelligent design'.

                    1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                      HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      All I can say as far as your observations on the 'clunkiness' of the universe and the human mind is that if you're not impressed and aw-struck by it all, created or not, there's nothing I can do. I guess some people will just never be satisfied.

                      How are you so certain Adam didn't exist? Let's have a look at the facts. According to Genesis he was a being that lived in Mesopotamia around 6-7000 years ago, he had a heightened self-awareness as a result of eating the forbidden fruit, and he lived a life that spanned centuries. The same goes for all of his family. 1656 years passed between his creation and the flood, so, according to that, there was a 'tribe' of self-aware humans with extended lifespans that existed in that general region and timeframe for many centuries, then vanished (flood).

                      So, if this really happened, there should be evidence of some sort, right? Archaeologically, we can actually see evidence that suggests the heightened sense of self-awareness/ego/individuality that differentiates those of us of 'civilized' descent from those of tribal/primal descent began in this same region and time frame. This is when we first stopped living in harmony with nature and instead began to behave more as selfish individuals. In fact, non-christian/non-religious researchers are beginning to see and suggest much the same thing (see the book titled 'The Fall: The Insanity of the Ego in Human History and the Dawning of a New Era' by Steve Taylor).

                      So, what about the immortal lifespan thing? Kind of hard to believe, I know. Well, we know this region was well populated in the time frame given, so what would you expect to see if beings such as this did in fact exist? We know that the Sumerians/Akkadians/Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Romans all spoke of a 'golden age' when humans weren't hung up on possessions and lived in harmony in their ancient past. And we know they all also spoke of immortal beings in their ancient past, human in form, male and female, who were moody and unpredictable, and who were said to have bred with mortal humans, creating titans or demi-gods. Genesis says the same thing (Gen6:1-3). And they all, at least predominately, viewed these mythological tales as if they were fact.

                      Too crazy? Sure seems to me much more likely that Adam could have actually existed. More likely than unicorns, at least evidence-wise. This is the same region and time frame that humanity became much more technologically proficient, invented writing and centralized government and organized warfare, civilization, and forever changed how humans live on this planet.

      43. The Invincible profile image60
        The Invincibleposted 4 years ago

        I fail to infer one thing Jainismus. What makes you create this forum when you are yourself a Jain? I'm trying hard to contain myself not to be rude in anyway. And why do you anyway choose such controversial topics? Is this genuine or just a way to get attention from all over?

        Is anybody a super power here, how could somebody just go ahead and prove God's existence or for that matter non-existence?

      44. The Invincible profile image60
        The Invincibleposted 4 years ago

        I fail to infer one thing Jainismus. What makes you create this forum when you are yourself a Jain? I'm trying hard to contain myself not to be rude in anyway. And why do you anyway choose such controversial topics? Is this genuine or just a way to get attention from all over?

        Is anybody a super power here, how could somebody just go ahead and prove God's existence or for that matter non-existence?

      45. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
        TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago

        Agreed. For a man knows not by being told. He may believe what others say, but thus he never knows, he only guesses. If a man would know a thing he must himself be what he knows. Now if a man has no other means of proving what he says other than that someone told him, then he does not know he simply guesses.

      46. lone77star profile image90
        lone77starposted 4 years ago

        The Universe exists, therefore He IS.

      47. Brian in Canada profile image60
        Brian in Canadaposted 4 years ago

        That it where you are wrong. Evolution is now a proven theory.

        1. boyatdelhi profile image41
          boyatdelhiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Creation by God will be proved to you once you die, but it will be too late...
          So it is better to know it now and believe in Jesus.

          That is why Paul who once persecuted the church said "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied"

          This life is a stepping stone to an another life.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Why don't you prove it now? Allah is going to hurt you real bad. wink

          2. heatblast92 profile image83
            heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            So, when we die, our souls go back in time to witness how an invisible deity came/ comes to mold this world into being from nothing?

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              souls go "back in time???"  I don't understand your comment.

          3. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Funny how you can't see the blatant contradiction there. lol

      48. ahorseback profile image45
        ahorsebackposted 4 years ago

        Here's a bust for ya ! No one has to prove anything to anyone , especially to the antagonistic attitude of posts in the forums like this , get over yourself ,  you're not the bible police ! And your anger with religion  is no one elses fault !

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          How brave you are behind your avatar and fake name. lol

      49. love my yorkies profile image61
        love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago

        Why does anyone have to prove anything?  Can we not just respect each other's beliefs, whatever they may be, whether we agree or not?  It should not matter whether someone is christian, atheist, muslim, hindu or whatever belief, you should respect the person they are and not focus on their religous beliefs or lack of.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why should I respect people's irrational beliefs exactly? If believers kept their beliefs to themselves - it would not be an issue.

          But - I am open to hearing why I should respect these beliefs.

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I would absolutely agree if religion was simply something people kept in their own lives, but it's not, religion affects my life and my society constantly from societal attitudes towards sex to whether we allow certain people to marry, until that ceases to be the case religion should be challenged, tested and if found wanting abandoned as would any other belief that affects the lives of everyone.

          1. love my yorkies profile image61
            love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Unfortunately, this is so true.  But as long as there have been people on the earth, they have been arguing and fighting over religious beliefs.  And within all the different variations of all the different religions, they can't agree on the same doctrines and beliefs and history and everything else.  It's very sad.  But, society and it's attitudes towards everything are constantly being changed (always have been) by other factors besides religion.  In the long run, I basically believe you have to find what works for you and you can't worry about what anyone else thinks.

        3. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          If those religions don't respect me and in fact go out of their way to disrespect me, why should I respect them?

      50. love my yorkies profile image61
        love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago

        Well, ok, how about respecting other's beliefs just as a common courtesy to others.  Whatever your beliefs, I would respect them and not critizize or belittle you for them.  I have my beliefts and if I don't agree with someone else's, well, that's my own personal opinion and I keep it to myself.  If someone wants to have a discussion on differences of beliefs, that's cool.  I don't have all the answers, in fact, I don't have hardly any answers, believe me I wish I did.  I know what I believe and it works for me and in the long run isnt' that the only thing that matters.  That doesn't mean it should work for anyone else and I don't force my beliefs on anyone.  I guess my question to you would be . why does it bother you so much?  If you see christianaity as irrational, that's cool, that's your opinion, but why is it an issue?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          So - you respect the beliefs of Nazis?  Odd . sad

          I take it you are religious? As it only seems to be people that hold irrational beliefs think irrational beliefs should be respected.

          1. love my yorkies profile image61
            love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Do i respect the beliefs of the Nazis?  No i do not respect the beliefs of the Nazis, but I do respect someone's right to believe in that if they want to.  I guess that's what I really meant, to just respect someone's right to their own beliefs even if  I do not personally respect that specific belief.  Am I religious?  I believe in God and Christ and I try to live my life and be the best person I can be.  I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, I do and say and think things I shouldn't, hey, I'm human.  But if it makes me happy to believe that there is something more to this life after we die or that there is a supreme being who created everything, what does it matter to you?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I respect your right to believe whatever nonsense you want. I do not respect your specific belief.

              Would you speak out against a Nazi if they shared their beliefs?

              If only that is where Christian beliefs stopped - I would not have an issue with them - no. But - you feel the need to share them - don't you? You demand respect for believing nonsense. Why? You felt the need to be very clear that you are a Christian - divided from the unbelievers. Saved when they are lost - yes?

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Mark, are you not sharing your beliefs every time you comment.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  What are my beliefs?

              2. love my yorkies profile image61
                love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I'm not demanding anything, I was simply asking why can't people in general just respect someone else's right to their own beliefs.  And you are the one who asked me if I was religious so I answered your question.  Do you feel the same way towards other religions or is it just Christians?  And your answer is exactly what I'm talking about, why could you have not just said I respect your right to have your beliefs instead of belittling me and calling it nonsense.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  The answer is simple, religions don't respect the rights of anyone who is not a follower of that religion and go out of their way to disrespect those others. Do you understand, now?

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes that seems to be a human trait.    How much respect do you have for those that believe diffrently than you do?

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      It has nothing to do with human traits.



                      Still don't understand we don't hold beliefs, I see.

                      1. Jerami profile image78
                        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Not a human trait?
                        And you have no beliefs.  Is that avoidance or denial

                  2. love my yorkies profile image61
                    love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, sadly, I guess I do.  I guess it just upsets me that we cannot be respectful of each other as a person without religion being in the mash.   There are a lot of people I have great respect for, because of who they are as a human being, and they do not all have the same beliefs as me.

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Why put religion in the mash then?

                    2. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      We can, easily. If religion is kept behind closed doors where it belongs, no problems, then.



                      You may have respect for another as a human being, but your religion does not, and most likely their religions don't either.

                2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I said I respect your right to believe whatever nonsense you believe. I believe your beliefs are nonsense because they are. I mean - look critically at them and you will see. Virgin birth? Original sin?

                  I feel the same way about all proselytizing, political religions - yes.

                  "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

                  "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

                  This is the code you follow - yes? I went to your profile and the first thing it says is, "But first and foremost, I am a follower of Jesus Christ and not ashamed to say so."

                  1. love my yorkies profile image61
                    love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, this is what my profile says and no I am not ashamed to admit that I follow Jesus and yes this scripture is in the Bible.  I can quote scripture all day too and there are verses in the Bible that will contradict this one.  As I said before, I don't have any answers.  The Bible also says "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Judge not or you will be judged" and "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".  I guess what it boils down to for me is I just don't understand why someone can't have a discussion on religion, any religion, with making all the demeaning and degrading remarks and name calling.

      51. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        HI Mark - with regard to Jehovah's Witness, a lot of research and comparison has been documented.  They don't believe Jesus is God.  LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

        JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.

        Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:
        1.The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
        Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
        In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
        In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
        In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
        In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
        but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.

        These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.
        2.The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.

        In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
        When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

        3.Attributes of Christ show that He is God

        Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.

        4.Certain works of Christ show that He is God.

        Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.

        5.Christ received worship as God.

        Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.

        6.
        Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
        JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.

        7.
        Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
        JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.

        The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!

        8.
        Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
        JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!


        The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No - your personal interpretation makes you believe this. Most other so-called Christians interpret these things differently. This is why there are so many different denominations.

          So - your judgment is that none of these are not real Christians because they don't believe exactly what you believe - yes?

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark I didn't express my beliefs.  I copies this from a Christian site that explains what cults are and believe.  Which Christians interpret things differently.  I have met many Christians over the last 40 years.  Acceptance as JW is a no brainer to the Christian community.  My father was a Methodist minister.  I attended Catholic school.,  I have been a member of 3 Baptist churches and am not non-denominational.  All subscribed to the same beliefs about JW.  If you Google, you will see how this is widely accepted.

      52. love my yorkies profile image61
        love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago

        There have been a lot of horrible crimes committed throughout history in the name of this religion or that religion and Christianity has been just as guilty as any other.  I take it you are an atheist?  I respect your RIGHT to believe that way.  Do I think your beliefs are irrational?  No.  Do i think your beliefs are wacko or stupid?  No.  If your beliefs make you happy, that's awesome!  Does it really matter to you what I think or believe?  My beliefs make me happy, so why can't you RESPECT that?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Because your beliefs are damaging to us as a society and I am part of that society. Since when is willful ignorance and superstition something that should be respected?

          Why don't you keep your beliefs to yourself?

          1. love my yorkies profile image61
            love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            If I choose to be willfully ignorant and superstitious, it's my life, not yours.   And other than the fact that I told you that yes I believe in God and Christ and an afterlife, I have not mentioned any thing else about my beliefs.  So, i pretty much have kept my beliefs to myself, I'm just asking questions and answering others.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Woohoo! Are you some new type of Christian in that case? Have you rejected what the bible says about all the things it has an opinion on? That is awesome! Wonderful that you do not follow the bible.

              You must have missed all the other Christians spreading the love.

              Why can't you just respect my belief that your religion is dangerous nonsense and you adversely affect our society? wink

              1. love my yorkies profile image61
                love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No, I have not and do not reject what the bible says, I simply stated other than telling you I believe in God and Christ, you don't know the realm of my beliefs and what they are. 
                Ok, I respect your right to your beliefs!

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              But, what if you didn't actually choose to be willfully ignorant and superstitious? Maybe that choice was already made for you long ago and you have simply grown to accept it.

              And, if so many of us choose to be willfully ignorant and superstitious, why are we bothering to send our children to schools and universities? Why are not just living in caves batting each other over the head with clubs, instead?



              That's wonderful. Would it be possible for you to talk with the millions of others who seem fit to cram their beliefs down our throats? They won't listen to us. Thanks, kindly. smile

          2. ihayaydin profile image60
            ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, you keep your unbelief to yourself too.  true beliefs and actions never damage to anyone. the real believing people are useful for society. non believers are aimless and alone people. respect is the necessity of human being. people who feel themselves as human,not other creature ,must respect others.

            1. love my yorkies profile image61
              love my yorkiesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thank You

            2. 59
              knowledgeismightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Never heard about crusades (even today they are 'hurting' moments...)? Now, tell me beliefs never ever hurt anyone.
              Non believers are as useful as believers if both keep their mouth' shut about beliefs.
              If, as you say "respect is the necessity of human being" this is contradicting strong with "not other creature must respect others".

              1. ihayaydin profile image60
                ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                only human has intelligence, we are aware of respect. an animal or a plant has the ability of respect? ı mean those creatures.

                1. 59
                  knowledgeismightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If you really mean this, you aren't able to appreciate the value of respect, which is a part of love. Do you have a pet at home? If you treat it well, you respect it and vice versa. Get a bite from a dog that's disrespect meaning you weren't allowed to do something specific (come to close, you want to caress but the dog doesn't like it because he may not know you too well etc.). Some 'creatures' have a greater sense of respect as some of the human beings. And when it comes to intelligence, ever seen dogs believing something they can't see or sense in any way or saying something like "Only dogs have intelligence". I guess you haven't, so, that's intelligence. And what you wrote is disrespect to 100%. Let alone naming animals 'creatures' some of the human beings aren't in prison because they are so lovely and like to cuddle or do respect every other human being or animals.

                  1. jacharless profile image80
                    jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Since when is affection, by or toward a creation {animal, plant, fish}, considered intelligent or a form of respect?
                    Instinct is not intellect. It is a very limited programming of reaction. A animal 'sizing up another' or avoiding contact is not respect, it is instinct or a show of force, aggression, spawned by the instinct to survive.

                    1. 59
                      knowledgeismightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      This is ridiculous. Instinct is part of intelligence as well as love, hate, or whatever feeling you want. We are all limited, which means in your sense every being isn't intelligent.

                      1. jacharless profile image80
                        jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                        Information does not automatically translate as intelligence.
                        A week in HRH naval training will teach you that, else a week of safari.

                        Animals have no intelligence, they have instinct.
                        An information -a genetic bootstrap program- that enables them to hunt, procreate, colonize, etc.
                        They have no understanding of that information. They are purely reaction objects {creations}.
                        So a mutt attacking or a cat butting up your leg is not intellect, it is instinctive respond to its environment.

                        As for what is limited, speak for yourself. "We" are not limited.
                        smile
                        Enjoy your safari holiday!

      53. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 years ago

        Mark - Mormonism - I admit I don't know much about Mormonism.  I looked at their beliefs page and see that they seem to have the Christian beliefs about God,.  I didn't read it all.  I did notice that "after baptist people receive the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands by someone in authority?"  This is not Biblical.  The Holy Sprit enters the heart at the moment a person receives Christ.  Has nothing to do with baptism?
        There was so much there I didn't have time to read it all but here is the statement:  "Following baptism by immersion comes the laying on of hands by one in authority who bestows the gift of the Holy Ghost."

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Mormons believe all sorts of nonsense about Jesus. That he was in America before he went to live with his Other Daddy for example.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well Mark, sounds like you know more than I do about Mormons.

      54. ahorseback profile image45
        ahorsebackposted 4 years ago

        There are only three things Christians have to Prove to anyone ....
        One - nothing!

        Two  - nothing!

        Thre - nothing !

        The idiousy of the of trying to please a non- believing antagonist is somewhat  less than challenging . They don't want your proof , they want your anger to feed thier selfish guilt at thier own lack of faith.

        1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
          TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Also, why is proof necessary? If they choose to not believe in a supreme being, I say WHO CARES! HAHAHAH let them not believe, it makes no difference to me! If the truth that there is a creator is not self-evident to them that's not our problem. They have a mind of their own I say let em use it. If they choose to ignore that which is evident, from which they could infer other truths, they are just being lazy. In every human is the principle of knowledge whereby they may obtain more knowledge. Truth is but one, the doubts are of their own rising. The problem is not with truth, for truth is attainable. The problem is with men who beareth not it's splendor.

        2. f_hruz profile image78
          f_hruzposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The words of the a god deluded, mindless religionoid who has not learned to think for himself yet: "... they want your anger to feed thier selfish guilt at thier own lack of faith." ... as if religious faith will fix your spelling and provide you with a better grip on reality?

          Your intellectual development has reached a dead end with your
          self evident inability to see NATURE as the objective basis to our common reality and not some man made religious dogmas involving some guy called Smith, Jesus, Moses or what ever!

      55. ahorseback profile image45
        ahorsebackposted 4 years ago

        Period!

        1. unitify profile image78
          unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I agree 100%

      56. thephilosopher899 profile image80
        thephilosopher899posted 4 years ago

        This is exactly what I've been saying for years. It is the duty of the asserting party to prove what they claim, not for the other party to disprove. By that sense I like to use Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot example: If I claim that there is a teapot orbiting the sun, but we do not have the technology or the ability to see it, no one will be able to claim that it does not exist. This is using the same reasoning of the religious. Sadly, if only they could see their faulty reasoning!

        1. unitify profile image78
          unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Maybe there is a teapot orbiting the sun.  Maybe you saying it made it so.  A man can fly. Why, because the wright brothers said so. Thought are things .  All you have to do is but look all around you. and you will believe and you will know.

      57. ahorseback profile image45
        ahorsebackposted 4 years ago

        Undeniable is the fact that every post by Non-believers is simply an attempt to anger YOU or I, did you ever notice they don't ever insult islam  or budda ....only  christians ! The O.P. and all ike it........ come from cowards !

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Ah - how brave of you from behind a fake user name and avatar. lol

          1. Taurus2 profile image61
            Taurus2posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            My sister's name is Maita. Well, she was naughty from the beginning. She used to wear masks of big-fat old males to frighten her friends. She is still like that. You see Mark, deception lies deep within the human character.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Dude, are you actually still here?  You must be a frickin' IT genius to keep coming back.  And back.  And back.  And back yet again.

              roll

        2. heatblast92 profile image83
          heatblast92posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well, firstly, I'm not one for being stoned to death by offended Muslims, as I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying I'm not alone in thinking as such.

          Secondly, Buddhism, while being a non-theistic set of beliefs, is the closest a religion can be to coherence with scientific progress, so to speak, disqualifying itself for the bout of mockery supposedly displayed here so rampantly toward Christianity by the heathen lot here.

          Thirdly, you shouldn't be angered so easily, given your firm faith in the alleged validity and infallibility of your beliefs, wouldn't you say so? smile

       
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