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'Innocence of Muslims'

  1. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    The movie that caused the riots is like South Park but not as funny. That's because it was not meant to be funny. Taken down in whole by youtube - you're not missing anything. Not a b-rated  but a z-rated movie. Here is part 2  trailer of this "epic' in stupidity.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCA5eLYO … ature=plcp

    The movie, "Innocence of Muslims," that mocks and insults the Prophet Muhammad blamed for inciting mobs in Egypt and Libya.

    1. Mighty Mom profile image91
      Mighty Momposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Riots, scaling of embassies and killing American diplomats.
      Wonder if the filmmaker is pleased with the critical reaction to his work?
      Then again, gotta wonder if the film is just a red herring...

      roll

      1. ptosis profile image80
        ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I believe it was meant to incite riots because it was not a cartoon like that Danish guy diong social commentary. The Money backer on this one was the same "pastor" who wanted to burn a bunch of Korans.

        1. Mighty Mom profile image91
          Mighty Momposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Crusades II, anyone?

    2. twosheds1 profile image61
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Ayaan Hirsi Ali has written a fascinating essay on the riots. Here's a paragraph:
      The Muslim men and women (and yes, there are plenty of women) who support—whether actively or passively—the idea that blasphemers deserve to suffer punishment are not a fringe group. On the contrary, they represent the mainstream of contemporary Islam. Of course, there are many Muslims and ex-Muslims, in Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere, who unambiguously condemn not only the murders and riots, as well as the idea that dissenters from this mainstream should be punished. But they are marginalized and all too often indirectly held responsible for the very provocation. In the age of globalization and mass immigration, such intolerance has crossed borders and become the defining characteristic of Islam.

      Read it all here:
      http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 … stand.html

  2. grand old lady profile image90
    grand old ladyposted 4 years ago

    As a Christian, there have been films like The Last Temptation of Christ and others, artworks, etc. and while Christians don't like it, we don't burn embassies or kill diplomats because of it. What is involved here is a vivid clash of cultures. The US Constitution protects freedom of speech no matter how offensive it may be. Islamic terrorists respond in their own, violent way. I don't think they need an excuse to do what they do. If there is no offensive piece of media there will be another excuse to further their cause. Many acts committed by Islamic terrorists were not done based on any piece of media.

    Muslim moderates don't do this sort of thing. What I want to know is, was this act of terrorism the work of moderates or extremists? And will there be two sets of concepts on the American constitution regarding freedom of speech, one for Muslims and one for everybody else?

    1. 60
      Aesops eyedeaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The US constitution does not protect freedom of speech no matter how offensive it may be. The constitution allows you to speak your mind as long as it does not pass boundaries, like disturbing the peace. Oh look you learned something and now you know not to spout incorrect facts whenever you please. And in case you don't believe try saying fire in a theatre or bomb in a airport, you will get arrested because you are disturbing the peace and no longer protected by the US constitution.

      1. 59
        adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @PISEAN AESOPS
        thats wat xactly i hv been trying 2 say 4 such a long time to these idiots!!! atleast one person understood the idea!! now m done wid it! if a single got it! dn its my success!!!

        1. 60
          Aesops eyedeaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I already knew this you had no participation in what I had to say. I didn't even know you wrote anything in this

          1. 59
            adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @AESOPS
            i wz trying to say dat atleast one person came who share common grounds wid me!!!! u shud read the last comments!!

            1. 60
              Aesops eyedeaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That's understandable, but you should know that your agurment came on too strong which made others disagree with you, it's better to just keep things short and simple

    2. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @grand old lady
      the kinda movie has been picturized on Muhammad PBUH which we call THE MESSAGE ..... jx lyk the last temptation of christ! but in this disrespectfull movie he uttered bullshit! which has nothing to do wid reality!!!!! saying n preaching lies through print media n speech has been condemned by US constitution tiz guy z a criminal now!!! A slander a defamer!!!!

  3. 0
    Emile Rposted 4 years ago

    Sticks and stones. Maybe we need to export the adage. I'm still confused on the logic behind a Danish film spawning the murder of Americans in our consulate. Sounds to me like an excuse for violence, but maybe I'm missing something.

    1. ptosis profile image80
      ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No Jyllands-Posten was murdered a few years ago for cartoons.
      This film was made and released in California.

      Reality Bytes hit it on the nail. Freedom. Free to say the stupid things. In junior high school a girl was picking on me for months. I was mousy back then and not nearly as mouthy as I am now.

      As soon as I knew we were going to different high schools I went up to her and said, "Nigger, Nigger, Nigger." Damn she was fast. Hit me three times before I even raised my arms. Teacher broke it up. I didn't get in trouble, but neither did she. This was before the prohibition of  vulgar and offensive student language under the Supreme Court’s 1986 decision in Bethel Sch. Dist. No. 403 v. Fraser.2

      Whenever a troll gets their posts flagged, they cry 'freedom of speech'. I can have a t-shirt that says FTW (Fuck the world) because it's not directed at a singular person - But if I said right into your face that "I'm going to kill you!",  that would be Assault: (the threat of violence).

      Forums have own rules that you agree with when signing on - that's different. Even craigslist Rant & Rave have rules such as not posting personal information; email, phone numbers of a person that you want to 'get at'.

      If I put a cartoon of Mohammad NPBUH, hubpages has a probable right to cut it out - just like linking to my own hubs - it's their forum. I'm a guest at their 'house'.

      P.S. Hubpages automatically changed my word fuck to f***, but I can get around it by typing in Phuck.
      I remember when Dick Cheney  was VP, I couldn't write the word Dick, changed it to D!ck which actually kinda made it worse.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Oh. I saw a blurb that said it was a danish film. I didn't read anything else about what precipitated the attack. Either way, I agree that realitybites made a very valid point. But, Islam has deified Mohamed to the point that it would be impossible to get the radicals to agree, or the moderates to actively argue against such behavior. Imo.

        1. ptosis profile image80
          ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It would be hard for a moderate to debate when Muslims kill each other for not being 'Muslim enough.'  Sort of like the during the McCarthy era when thousands of Americans were accused of being Communists or communist sympathizers and everybody just ducked their head down so as not to be accused themselves.



          In the comment section on youtube a Muslim accused the film maker of spreading Shite lies! Wow.

          Nakoula Basseley Nakoula. Nakoula, 55, a Coptic Christian, said he was the manager of the company that produced the anti-Muslim movie,


          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19586143

          From Faux.com: “There is absolutely no way that film could have cost five million,” one independent film producer told FoxNews.com. “More likely, five dollars… It looks like a hoax.”

          A representative for the California Film Commission said that no filming permits were given to Bacile or Klein, or anything related to the film’s title.  While it seems the film may have been shot in large part via green screen, filming in any public place requires a permit, and it is hard to imagine that the 45-person crew – along with 60 actors as “Bacile” told the press – could have gone completely unnoticed over the three-month period. Neither the film, nor its supposed filmmaker, has a presence on leading film database IMDB. And nobody in the film industry we talked to had any knowledge of it, nor did they recognize any of the actors in it.

          Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 … z26N16zVBU


          The film show Muh. going down on female genitals, as a pedophile, liar, a duped idiot, and even Dr. DoLittle talking and understanding animals. Talking to an ass, proclaimed that  this ass was the first Muslim animal. Pretty much like Jim Jones of the mass cult suicide at Jonestown in Guyana but to ridiculous proportions aka South Park or Monty Python but just stupid, not funny.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well, I had a sister who was harrassed in grade school until she cried. The boys tried the same thing on me and I laughed. They stopped immediately.  Muslims have to realize human nature is what it is. Some people live to get a rise out of others. We only degrade ourselves by reacting. No one can degrade us by their words unless we chose to allow it.

          2. sen.sush23 profile image59
            sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Most of the scenes look like photo-shop super-impositions. The desert scene does not change, the actors look like kind of elevated in space. Very poor work.

      2. sen.sush23 profile image59
        sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Brilliant! But I am not sure if people really will get that sarcasm. smile
        Did I get it right? yikes

        1. ptosis profile image80
          ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes!
          Words & pictures are just symbols for ideas.
          When I write the word horse - there is no horse - my horse in my mind is different that the horse in your mind.

          Optical illusion: Looks Arabic - is in English

          http://trickfist.com/trickfist/thumb/arabic-text-word-optical-illusion.jpg

          I can draw a picture. I see colors and shapes - you see the same color and shapes in a different way.

          Hey! That picture is upside down! Can you read what it says?

          I can see all these people standing up  from their chairs and twisting their head around to read this picture.... smilesmilesmilesmilesmile

  4. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago

    The United States honors and respects the freedom of speech.  A movie maker cannot be responsible for the actions of psychopaths!  Nor should anyone representing the people offer any form of apology for an American exercising their rights.  It is an act of cowardice to attempt to appease someone so they will not do harm to you, ridiculous!  Everyone has a right to be insulted, they do not maintain any right to conduct violence.  And we have a right to distribute things that could be insulting to some.

    I do not care if an individual draws a picture of the prophet mohaammed performing a Lewinsky on Jesus and places it on the cover of Time magazine, it is their right and their choice to do so.

    1. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I think as ur name indicates!! reality!! but u r not real at awl!! only a hater of humanity and islam!!
      In 1993 as iraqi woman was shot dead coz she had drawn a picture of George Bush outside her hotel!! on te ground! and she was shot 4 dat crime!!! .... its hypocrisy when it comes to your honour and pride then freedom  of speech cn jx go n fuck itself!! but incase of others , there z always space for freedom of speech!! its not freedom of speech! its xpression of HATRED!! ....
      u cannot go and abuse an american and slap the person!! coz it will be considered social and psychological harm to the person!! dats y he/she can sue u 4 tat!!!  EVERY FREEDOM HAS SOME BOUNDARIES! WHICH STARTS WITH UR MIND N BODY BUT ENDS BY ENTERING SOMEONE'S PERSONAL DOMAIN!!.....
      If u dun care abt Jesus its ur will!!! but its right and freedom 2 care 4 something i want to!!! i care for my prophet and will always do so!!! 
      if u see ur parents emotionally and psychologically abused infront ov u!! wat wud u do?? stand there n enjoy?? M not sure about it!!  May Allah give u right path to lead upon!! Path of light!! path of humanity and islam ....

      1. nightwork4 profile image59
        nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        caring for something and rioting and killing for it are two different things. i personally think islam is a joke and the radicals need to give their heads a shake.by the way, what the heck does " dat" mean?

        1. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @nightwork4
          i dun gv a damn abt ur personal feeling!! no one do so!!!
          to b real n factual christianity z out dated modified changed 4 one's comfort!! not Islam wich havnt been modified by a single letter!! u need a real lyf dude! u r in a fantasy n dilemma wich western media z portraying!! fuck u haters!!! back bitting n hating means Islam z getting more n more stronger n going up! which u people r trying to get it down!!! haha big_smile
          (dat) its my own analogy if u dun lyk it dun read it! tongue big_smile

  5. umar.shehzad profile image60
    umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago

    As a Muslim, I am not sure what I can possibly say to condemn the act of killing of the American diplomat. Though I am still sure, that most of you think that not all of the Muslims should be blamed for this act and similar other actions, but it certainly is an act of shame done by few of us. And even if I was a non-Muslim, this incident would've made me believe that maybe Islam is the source of this violence.

    But actually these are the actions of the misled people. They have the right to peacefully protest (I am not saying that the guy who made the film has the right to mock the Prophet Muhammad or any other prophet, including Jesus and Moses), but killing a human being who wasn't even remotely linked to the movie, is just an awful act of intolerance and stupidity.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      By the same token, is it not an act of intolerance to state the guy who made the film doesn't have the right to mock so-called prophets, especially if they consider those prophets to be frauds and charlatans?

      1. umar.shehzad profile image60
        umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It's like asking that if a person makes a racist movie against the black people in America, will he be excused just because he thinks that black people are a burden to American economy.?

        You might say that the two things aren't related. Maybe for you that's right, but call us Muslims backward but  we as Muslims believe that the greatest offense possible is to disrespect our Prophet. It's kind of a cultural clash thing too.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well - you are going to clash with a lot of people. What will you personally do to me if I disrespect your prophet?

          1. umar.shehzad profile image60
            umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark I know that you are trying to enrage me but I am here to reason not to fight. I said it before and i am saying it again that the killing of the ambassador is utterly wrong, I am also against the violent protests too.

            What is annoying however is the fact that many americans are now blaming Islam and want every muslim country bombed to rubble. Thats as wrong as the killing of the ambassador, and equally UNJUSTIFIED. Two wrongs dont make a right, and such attitude, while understandable, will not help ease the situation.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              No - I asked you a simple question. As you seem to think that disrespecting your prophet is a far worse thing to do than gang raping your mother and killing all your children and I quote - we as Muslims believe that the greatest offense possible is to disrespect our Prophet - I wondered what your response would be if I was to (once again) disrespect your prophet. What would you do about it? Genuine question.

              "Be offended," is that correct?

              I mean - if you start out telling me I must respect your prophet or you will be offended - what does that mean exactly? A lot of Christians seem to think that the most offensive thing for them is for Muslims to deny Christ as God in the flesh - there seems a guaranteed clash here. Yes?

              1. umar.shehzad profile image60
                umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I said it somewhere in this thread, but i am saying it again: "everyone is entitled to his own beliefs, but that doesn't gives him an excuse for the hate speech".

                And yes, it certainly is a great offense. Why did I say it, because Our Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) said: "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind." So even that I am not a perfect or even a good Muslim, I will keep trying to become one.

                So if someone calls names at your parents in front of you, you may not be a pacifist and reason them out of it. You would probably hit them or at least swear back. Excessive yes, but UNDERSTANDABLE.

                So all I am trying to say is that if you insult my prophet, it is a greater offense than insulting my mother. But will I chose to reason or try to hit you is my own decison. But since Islam teaches patience and forgiveness, it'd be better for all of us to reason.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  UNDERSTANDABLE?

                  No - sorry. I don't understand how anyone can believe such stuff.

                  I see you avoided my questions again - what would you do if I "disrespected," your prophet? As this is the most offensive thing I can do to you.

                  And - as far as I understand it - anyone who does not follow his violent, misogynistic teachings is "disrespecting," him - yes?

                  1. umar.shehzad profile image60
                    umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    So you're saying that you won't even get slightly offended if someone calls names at your parents. either that or you haven't read my post carefully.

                    Mark, I am from Pakistan, so it's clear that you know English, better than I do. So you're just using and twisting my words to prove your point, that we believe that being a non-Muslim is same as making a movie which insults Islam and our prophet. And you'd then jump to a conclusion that Muslims believe that Non-Muslims don't have a right to live as they're disrespecting their religion.

                  2. HowardBThiname profile image88
                    HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Umar has been very civilized and there's no point in pressing him on whether or not he thinks it's wrong to insult the prophet. If someone believes a religion - they don't get to pick and choose which beliefs to accept. There was a time when insulting the Christian Savior would earn you a few days of torture, and eventual death by an Inquisitor.

                    As an atheist - I think it's important to see both sides. A person can only believe what he or she believes. Gradually, beliefs can change and they do, yet telling someone they should not believe something is usually an exercise in futility.

                    Umar denounces the violence in the Middle East - and he does not condone killing over an insult of the prophet. That's all he can do. He spoke out. He spoke up.

                    Thank you, Umar.

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Unfortunately the muslim world is in a bit of a pickle. I've actually never meet a muslim I didn't like. But I do know they are out there as I've seen some of the teachings. I think Islam is going to have to grow up a bit as the Christians have done over that few hundred years. A separation of Church and State and a sense of humour is needed. The west has freedom of speech. In Canada at least we have laws against hate speech, but I'm not sure that same law applies in the U.S. and I don't think it would have helped prevent this film from being made. There will always be people who like to mock other and it doesn't just happen to muslims. So unfortunately Islam needs to learn how to shrug it off, just as the Christian have. The Christian bible also contains passages about loving Jesus more than your family or burn in hell. Shrug it off or it will get worse.

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    u cannot tell a person what to believe and what not to!! ..... if u hv shrugged off ur faith ..its ur weakness of belief!!! .... i consider it my pride to have something to believe on! ...... I am a muslim by birth! i had no choice at that time which religion to choose! .... but after the age of 19 when i got abit matured i researched and embraced islam by my own will and right! ..

                3. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Calling your prophet a fraud may be offensive to you, but it is certainly not hate speech.



                  Muhammad is not your parent.



                  I pity anyone who places a fraud in front of their own families. How very sad, but very informative in how you would probably turn to violence to defend your prophet.



                  LOL! I see no patience or forgiveness in your words.

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @ A Troubled Man
                    your father is a Moron and your Mother is a bitch , a whore!! i bet u dun even knw ur father name! lol

                4. nightwork4 profile image59
                  nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  ya but you are a sheep who follows a religion built on fear and getting women when you die. people like you are exactly what is wrong with Islam and the funny teaching of that mohammed dude. now go play until you grow up.

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    haha! see when i abused u wat hv u done? abused me in return!!! n u people say to stay calm incase anyone abuses u!! y is it not implementd in ur case?? hypocritesss!!!! when v get angry on dat movie they say its fun! bt here see 4 urself hypocritess!!!!!
                    u dun hv an inch ov a knowledge abt Islam n m sure even abt christianity i know christianity more dn u do kiddo!!!! so welcome to d new kitten in d ground!!!! n people lyk u shows us d modifications n false christianity!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alas!!!! so sad!!!
                    i dun want 2 go in christianity coz it has so many errors dat u never gonna answer or clearify!! else u gonna cry to face d reality!!! lol big_smile

              2. 59
                adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @Mark
                If u say dat its offensive for u , if we dun accept Jesus as God! dn its lyk saying forcefully to accept my opinion n my faith!! we are not trying to convince u to accept Islam or lead on our faith!! we are jx saying dat we respect ur faith n ur belief either u shud respect ours!!! and its our humanly right by any means to ask for respect for ourselves and our believes!!
                Muhammad is far more dear to us dan our families its our belief! u cant stop us from believing so , and if someone is important to us more than our parents dan its natural for us to respond and react as u wud react on ur parents its natural human psychology! .....  And if u say that u r not bothered abt ur parents to b hit or abused , then u hv fallen off from the category we call Humanity!

                1. Xain Shah profile image60
                  Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Well said adnan. We are not asking anyone to embrace Islam. We ask that our Prophet be respected, and of course if we love him more than our own parents, we WILL be enraged more when he is insulted than when our parents or ourselves are insulted. The problem is that certain people deliberately offend us just to have an excuse to call us terrorists and defame us.

                  1. pisean282311 profile image58
                    pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @xain why should i respect ur prophet dude?...he is ur prophet...i can respect ur feelings for prophet as fellow human being but for me he was ordinary man...full stop...i respect ur right to belief thats it but i also respect others right to criticize god , prophet , jesus etc etc...and u should respect that right of others if u want others to respect ur right to belief...it is two way street..isnt it?...

                  2. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Why should your prophet be respected exactly?

                  3. nightwork4 profile image59
                    nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    there has never been one good reason to respect some guy that marries 9 year old girls but i do find it funny that islamics think there is.

        2. Reality Bytes profile image93
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Do you think of yourself as an individual or merely a part of a group?

        3. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          They aren't related by any stretch of the imagination, you equate black people and racism to a fraud making bogus claims.



          Then, don't disrespect your so-called prophet. We can disrespect him all we want, he is not our prophet.

          1. umar.shehzad profile image60
            umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            This is exactly what the difference of opinion is about, you don't consider him or Jesus a prophet, fine with me. But just because you think something isn't true, doesn't give you the excuse for hate speech against a group of people, whether that group is the black community or it's the Muslims.

            Ask a racist redneck about the black people and he'll give you reasons for his actions. He doesn't believe in equality of human beings, it's his own belief. Whether it is wrong or right, he has his own beliefs.

            Similarly if you consider the prophets as frauds, whether you are right or wrong, you are entitled to your own beliefs. I am not the one to judge, but that doesn't give you excuse for hate speech.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I don't understand.

              Have you changed your tune now? Or is disrespecting a dead guy "hate speech," now?

              1. umar.shehzad profile image60
                umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                So is it ok for you, if someone insults your dead brother, or a dear friend? As I said in a reply to your other post, that if you insult my prophet, it is a greater offense than insulting my mother.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  No - that is not what you said.

                  You said "disrespect," not "insult."

                  1. umar.shehzad profile image60
                    umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I say it again mark, i am a Pakistani, and you're really good at English. So can we stop playing this game of words and get back to the topic. smile

                2. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That is why Islam is so dangerous to mankind.

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @ A troubled man
                    If islam is so dangerous! and u accuse islam out ov nothing!! lacking in evidence!! lyk an ignorant freak!! .... then i hv a question 4 u!! ( Why is Islam according 2 stats the world most fastest prevailing religion especially in western countries!!?? Why are people finding peace in such a dangerous religion?? why ur top celebs hv converted to Islam defying fame n evrything n accepting peace?? ) I bet u vl not remain A troubled man! if u research Islam by urself! study it completely n dun believe on d things presented by western media n flying stuff!!?? ur troubles will b removed forever InshaAllah... lol

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is a dishonest accusation. Mocking or ridiculing Mohammad is not hate speech against a group of people. If Muhammad shows many of the characteristics of charlatans and frauds, I have every right to say so and you nor anyone else has the right to be violent as a result.




              Please stop dishonestly referring to the black community, it has nothing to do with this discussion at all.



              Hate speech? That is laughable.

              But of course, you provide ample evidence as to how Muslims decide what they can call upon in the Quran as defending themselves. You dishonestly state hate speech when your prophet is called a fraud. And, now you are free to be violent against me because you believe you're defending Islam.

        4. ptosis profile image80
          ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          People who are easily offended are thought of as brittle and thin-skinned. Laughing it off is a sign of your belief systems is deep and personal and the offending person is stupid & thoughtless.

          Please tell me why no protests against the Islamic TV show that broadcasted it?

          Hypocritical protesting  - explain that!

          http://voices.yahoo.com/images-jesus-mo … 84826.html

          http://s4.hubimg.com/u/7162771_f248.jpg
          _________________________________________________________
          This art is already destroyed but the guy is  still being sued because

          "Zuma,a Zulu polygamist who has married six times, has four current wives and 21 children &  once stood trial for and was acquitted of rape said: "The portrait depicts me in a manner that suggests I am a philanderer, a womanizer and one with no respect."

          http://s4.hubimg.com/u/6656215.jpg

          1. umar.shehzad profile image60
            umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            ptosis, I know it's hypocritical, but I am not the one who's out there on streets damaging my own community, instead I am amongst the group of Muslims who believe that reasoning with someone is the only way of convincing. So I am here to speak for my own beliefs and practices.

            And we feel highly offended when Jesus or any other Prophet is disrespected too. Its just that it doesnt provoke the more extremists amongst us, and therefore never causes such widescale riots that you're seeing right now. According to the Holy Quran, we should make no distinction between one another of His messenger.

            1. ptosis profile image80
              ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you for replying. I am glad that you are willing to respond in this mostly (look at the other threads) non-muslim  website.  As we all know - there are a lot of illogical extremist 'christians'  who are thought of as crazy by the rest of us. We have neo-nazis, KKK, skinhead, anti-mexican immigration, and some even more disgusting cults.

              You said that for muslims the ultimate provocation is depiction of Muhammud. US citizens believe that Freedom of Speech is the ultimate right. That's why it's number 1 in the Bill of Rights. It's practically a religion to be able to speak, think and feel no matter what others say.

              What if you are a American Muslim? How do they reconcile these two things in their mind? Both are important tenets. Respect yes, but freedom to say things is even better in my eyes. If 100 people in the room say 'such and such' is "perfect" - and I disagree - I should be able to make a point without getting killed over speaking my mind.

              A wide range of ideas are openly discussed. The most viable rise to the top and the least viable fade away. .....

              http://dearauthor.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/u-oA15iK0-Q2akOoExe2A2.jpghttp://s4.hubimg.com/u/7167403_f248.jpg

              I wish to ask you a favor. If you are arabic speaking please find news that tells the rest of the world why there are no people protesting at the al nas. There must be a reason why. Even if it is a illogical  reason.

              To me, it would be like a priest in front of a church repeating something that somebody else said and then  saying "Kill any person for saying that!", when he just said it himself. It's suicidal.

              Then I was thinking another thing. What if the entire human race was Muslim, and there was no Jihad left to do? I would think that Muslim were turn against each other. Not because they are Muslim but it is a human trait to keep dividing Us VS Them. 

              On Easter Island where everybody was the same - they divided between the Long Ears and the Short Ears for those in power and the slaves.

              The heretic

              I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

              1. Xain Shah profile image60
                Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @quilligrapher: God bless you too.
                First, let me say I appreciate your respectful tone. This attitude alone can help solve a lot of issues. I believe adnan already answered your query.

                Please let me know if there is anything else you wish to know.

              2. Xain Shah profile image60
                Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @ptosis: I agree you should have the right to disagree with others. We acknowledge that right as Muslims, which is why we dont do forced conversions in Islam. Which is why in Islamic law, anyone living in an islamic state is free to practice their own religion and its the responsibility of the islamic government to PROTECT them.
                But you have to realize the difference between disagreement and disrespect/insult. If you provoke anyone, you will always face retaliation.

                Why dont you practice your right to disagree or your freedom of speech in a room full of black people by calling them "niggers"? Or why dont you go to a ghetto at night and try the same thing? Say you get beaten up. Do you think you'll be able to argue that them beating you was wrong? Even if you can argue that in a court of law, do you feel, within your heart, that it was the right thing to do?

                1. ptosis profile image80
                  ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I've already posted that I already started a fight (and lost) back in the 1970's. Now, saying nigger or bitch is so widespread it's practically cool to be mean.

                  When Obama got elected I called him (not to his face) a 'cracker incog-negro', black on the outside, white on the inside. The guy came into politics from Crook Country, Chi- town - the most corrupt place in the entire United States.  I believe Mittens is just a straw-man for Obama to get re-elected because he is a Republican hiding in plain sight as a Democrat.

                  And i don't have to say nigger in a room full of niggers to get beat up - It would all depend on context. If I was part of the 'in' crowd - it would be OK. If an outsider - then would get run off for not being part of the dominating group without saying a word.

                  No matter where I go I'm either too dark - or too light - because I'm a mongrel -  like most Americans. Only in US when someone asks 'what are you, you get an answer such as 1/2 this, 1/4 that, 1/8 something else, and 1/8 another thing. You don't get the answer I'm American  unless the person is making a politically point.

              3. sen.sush23 profile image59
                sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ref: The Heretic
                ptosis, that is an awesome sum-up of the crux the matter. I must say you were being very graphic in giving this story, in this context - but unfortunately even logical and sane people, hardly listen! We have such short attention span!

  6. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    Question: What is the greatest provocation?

    The depiction of..or the mocking?\
    Mohammed
    If this was a radio drama without images but still contain all the South Park/Squigbillies offensiveness  - would there still be riots?

  7. Mighty Mom profile image91
    Mighty Momposted 4 years ago

    The filmmaker's free speech is protected within the United States. Not universally.
    The film was posted on the internet and promoted on chat sites.
    You can't throw rocks in other people's backyards and then hide behind Mama America's skirt.


    I respectfully disagree, RB.
    We appease countries all the time so they won't harm us or our allies.
    We appease them in different ways, from trade agreements to brokered negotiations.

    1. Reality Bytes profile image93
      Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      In my experience, once you head down the path to attempt to appease those that threaten you with harm if you do not, are never satisfied, it never stops, they cannot be appeased, you merely show weakness and your willingness in consenting without a struggle!  To add to that, once that weakness is revealed, every wannabe bully in the yard wants theirs too!  You either make a stand inevitably, except the opponent will be more emboldened due to the belief of your weakness, or you will forever be barraged with requests.

      1. Mighty Mom profile image91
        Mighty Momposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I figured that's exactly what you mean and I don't disagree with you on a national level at all.
        The phrase "we don't negotiate with terrorists" comes to mind.


        I was talking more about what the diplomats in the Egyptian embassy should have done differently with respect to calling off the protestors.
        That did not seem like the time to be saber rattling, "We're the US and you're not."
        But maybe I am wrong and maybe what we need to do is put more military might at our embassies.
        Which, ultimately, is a responsive action to an aggressive action.
        Or, we could repeat our response to 9/11 and invade Libya now.

    2. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well said, MM.

      1. Mighty Mom profile image91
        Mighty Momposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Does not in any way, shape or form excuse the extremists, though.
        As someone(s) have said elsewhere here today, if you're looking for a fight, you will always find one.
        If you throw chum into the water, you gotta expect sharks.
        sad

  8. grand old lady profile image90
    grand old ladyposted 4 years ago

    The difficulty is in separating the terrorist Muslims from the moderate Muslims. If you hit at the entire country, you may defeat your purpose. The trouble is, the terrorists strike then hide, strike then hide. There has to be good intelligence work in finding these guys and getting them. They should enlist the cooperation of the government, but we don't know the state of Libya's government and a lot of new governments after the Arab spring. The moderate Muslims should also speak out and decry the terrorists. The problem is, terrorists are harder on moderate Muslims than on Americans and others, and the same reason behind South Park's bending down is the reason why moderates also hesitate to speak up. So your best bet is to get together with moderates, try to understand each other, hope you can stand side by side and defeat terrorism. Of course, that is so much easier said than done.

  9. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    Spreading protests in the Sudan against British & German Embassy show that protesting is the job of the frustrated jobless. Remember Occupy Wallstreet, when the protesters were mocked as jobless hand out seekers?

    Germany & Britain had nothing to do with this - so why are the Sudanese  storming the embassies? Even though I don't know what I'm talking about I had a feeling that this was intended to incite riots in Egypt to end the 'Arab Spring' - and I got some of the guess right.

    "The operation behind this film appears to be extreme Egyptian Copts who want to discredit the Morsi government and create a provocation," journalist Max Blumenthal told Al Jazeera on Wednesday." - http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur … 70525.html

    Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood started the Arab Spring.

    Abenob Nakoula Bassely (on probation for a bank fraud conviction), posed as Sam Bacil is not a Israeli real estate developer but linked to the hate group called American Coptic Assembly  not to be be confused with the The Coptic Assembly of America (CAA)

    http://www.coptspharoes.com/copts/ar/images/egyptiany.jpg

    Morris Sadek of the National American Coptics Assembly is the promotor and possibly translator to Arabic in order to destabilize the Muslim brotherhood government of Egypt.

    http://theflowerthrowers.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/innocence-of-muslims11.jpg?w=630&h=460

    Islamophobics "the film itself doesn't matter. It was not the cause of these riots and murders. The film was on YouTube for months before the Muslim rage over it began, and that rage was clearly carefully planned and orchestrated. " - http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/coptic-ch … rally.html

    slain U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens
    http://s2.hubimg.com/u/7155489_f248.jpg<TOS violating image removed>

  10. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    Released in July 2012 - ignored but then clips were aired on Egyptian television on Sept. 8, 2012.

    Why aren't there protests against the Egyptian TV for broadcasting it? Aren't they Muslims doing the same thing that they are protesting about? It seems planned to have such huge protests against UK and German embassies that don't even have nothing to do with it.

    It's a dodge or blind  - who is really pulling the strings?

    Ask why the Egyptian TV Broadcast it? Has anybody asked that?
    Why isn't the Islamic TV broadcaster in trouble for showing it on TV? Why aren't there protests against the TV host?


    "Sheik Khaled Abdalla
    A fiery Egyptian TV host on the Islamist satellite TV channel al-Nas, Abdalla is reported to have set off the outrage when he broadcast a clip of the movie trailer that showed the man playing Muhammad. After he showed the video on Sept. 8, the Atlantic Wire reports, online views of the video soared. According to the Guardian, Abdalla drums up outrage among his audience by homing in on perceived threats to Islam and intensifying them.
    http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/13/fri … z26VehwDWV

    Sheikh Khaled Abdalla. wants to see much more harsh imposition of Sharia or Islamist law.

    "Earlier this week, a complaint was filed against Al-Nas for allegedly inciting strife between Muslims and Christians in an unrelated incident." http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201 … s-diplomat

    This unrelated incident: "This complaint, which is dated 5 September ...the channel and the presenter have taken the path of inciting strife between Muslims and Christians which is proved by the fact that the channel allowed some who claim to be preachers of Islam to attack Christians using the vilest of language.”" - http://thedailynewsegypt.com/2012/09/09 … s-channel/

    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/7157912_f248.jpghttp://s4.hubimg.com/u/7157915_f248.jpghttp://s3.hubimg.com/u/7157918_f248.jpghttp://s3.hubimg.com/u/7157922_f248.jpghttp://s4.hubimg.com/u/7157923_f248.jpghttp://s1.hubimg.com/u/7157924_f248.jpghttp://s3.hubimg.com/u/7157926_f248.jpghttp://s1.hubimg.com/u/7157932_f248.jpghttp://s1.hubimg.com/u/7157940.jpghttp://s2.hubimg.com/u/7157941.gif

    1. Mighty Mom profile image91
      Mighty Momposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Looks like Rush Limbaugh's got some competition.
      roll

    2. Xenonlit profile image60
      Xenonlitposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Except in America, Rush and any other man would go to jail if he beat or killed his wife. These people think that it is a right.

  11. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    Ironically reactions from muslim world proves point which movie made...

    1. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      IF  u want to know Islam n wats d point behind d reaction u shud study Islam or allow me to do so!!!!
      if u depict a picture ov islam 4m tat shitty movie dn u r d most ignorant n media influenced person i hv ever seen!!!
      Its lyk studying christianity from a Jewish scholar or atheist!!!! i challenge u to study 4 urself!!!! i vl gv u d sources ov true Islam!!!!!! dan u vl undrstand wats our point really z!!!

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @adnan dont justify barbaric ways ....have u seen the film?...i have...it is idiotic film...made to show prophet in poor light ...i agree on that...but point movie made was proven when in human muslims killed ambassdor...that was point which film maker made and muslims practically proved him right...he won the intellectual battle..

        1. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @pisean
          dude how many times i hv to repeat my statement!! m not in favor ov murdering innocent!! wat happened to d ambassador!! wz wrong!! i agree wid tat!! bt wat happened wz merely on emotional grounds!!! lemme put it tat way!!! if someone rape ur girlfriend whom u love truely infront ov u!! n molest her wid alot ov shit tat u cant even imagine!! wat wud u do?? u cant die 4 her no matter how muc u love her!! but muslims can!!... wont u get down 2 barbaric grounds?? our prophets still prohibited us 4m killing innocents!! i cn state several verses here!! bt if u agree wid me in d point dat wat dat bloody film maker did to honour ov our Holy Prophet!! u jx once read d life story ov our Prophet dn u wud know how much ov a great soul he was!!! even ur people after studying Him ranked him first in world top 100 personalities!! y wud dy do so?? its jx coz they studied His life!!! NOT BY WATCHING MOVIE LIKE U!!! BUT REFERING TO TRUE SOURCES!!!

        2. Xain Shah profile image60
          Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          pisean282311: Then on your reasoning, I can very well say that americans are also terrorists and extremists. I personally have talked to several americans who simply want to nuke libya as well as all muslim countries. If the action of some people who killed the ambassador show that ALL muslims are barbarians, then the action of several americans who want to nuke every single muslim easily proves that all americans are extremists (by your logic).
          Kindly note that at no point whatsoever has any muslim said: all non muslims are bad, kill them all, bomb america etc etc. Americans have shown a far more negative response and that shows the level of hypocracy that they possess. They bombed Pakistan army, which is their own ally and front line state against terrorism. They did not have the courtesy to even verbally apologize, let alone offer financial consolation to the families. They use drones to kill innocent civilians in Pakistan. So dont tell me muslims are barbaric. America is by far the single most barbaric nation in existence right now. Im not justifying the killing of the ambassador, I have been repeatedly saying this in this topic. Im saying:

          stop labelling us with names when you dont do it for other people who do the same things or worse.

          1. pisean282311 profile image58
            pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @xain dont behave like ostrich....25 nations people coming on streets and killing innocent person who has nothing to do with film tells something...introspect...coming to people wanting to nuke...yup there r people who would want to nuke kabba forget libya...difference being when such people speak , others dont support them by coming in streets in name of some prophet ...they oppose them...once muslim world starts doing that in majority then ur point is valid...as of now this idiot movie maker proved his point right using muslims...

            1. 59
              adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @pisean
              Answer me a simple question .... drone attacks killings thousands ov innocents has ever bothered u?? answer me?
              Its some prophet 4 u not 4 me! u r avoiding alot ov my questions dude!! if have freedom to hate then v hav our freedom to love!! whatever shape it may be!!

            2. Xain Shah profile image60
              Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @pisean: Dont act like people from 25 nations gathered and killed one ambassador. That was the work of the minority. If we wanted to kill all ambassadors, the ones in other countries would be dead too. This is not a threat, its a fact. The fact that all other ambassadors are alive speaks volumes about the majority of the muslims. YES  the majority is protesting against the video. but it wasnt the majority that killed the ambassador. Learn the difference. The majority of the muslims population does not wish to kill or harm any other ambassador. But they are protesting against the video wholeheartedly.

              The video proved nothing. Let me give you an example. Lets say i want to prove a point that your pet dog yelps, growls and barks too much. I go and cut off its tail, or just break its leg. It will yelp, growl, bark and it will do that for HOURS in pain. Will my point be proven then?
              Come on man think logically. You provoke someone with the most offending thing they know about, then when they react in anger, you say "Hey, point proven. You're a savage".  Your logic is flawed.

              1. Billy Hicks profile image89
                Billy Hicksposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "You provoke someone with the most offending thing they know about, then when they react in anger, you say "Hey, point proven. You're a savage".  Your logic is flawed."

                So let me get this straight: because some chucklehead made a YouTube video that looks like something my 5 year old could do, you're saying that's justification for violence? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you here.

                1. Xain Shah profile image60
                  Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  @ Billy Hicks: "some chucklehead made a YouTube video that looks like something my 5 year old could do"

                  I believe we have nothing more to argue about if you feel the video was wrong and stupid, unnecessary.
                  I have repeatedly said the violence is wrong. I cant seem to drive the point home enough. For the millionth time, the ambassador's murder was wrong. But protesting is our right. Doing it in a way that registers complaint is right.
                  Doing it in a way that hurts innocent people or their property, is WRONG.

                  So yes i believe you misunderstood me. I hope its clear now.

              2. HowardBThiname profile image88
                HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Xian - the problem with your belief is that you do not have a RIGHT not to be offended, but people have a right to life.

                Peaceful protests are welcome and often encouraged, but violence works against the ones being violent. I understand that you do not condone violence, but you must go further - you must speak out against those who are violent in the strongest way possible.

                The film depicts Muslims as violent and reactionary. The violence proves the film to be true.

                At some point, radical Muslims must face that fact that religious prophet who needs defense by killing - isn't the kind of prophet that's probably worth listening to.

                If you have truth on your side - there is no need to defend it.

                1. Xain Shah profile image60
                  Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Please read my reply above your post to Billy Hicks....Im tired of repeating myself. I only have my words to condemn the violence with. I cant physically go stop them.

                  And no,I disagree. Being offended is my right as much as its your right to disagree with me. The right to stay alive is higher, and which is why for the billionth time i say that the killing of innocent people and the destruction of their property is WRONG.

                  "The film depicts Muslims as violent and reactionary. The violence proves the film to be true. "

                  To this, I will quote myself from the previous post:

                  "The video proved nothing. Let me give you an example. Lets say i want to prove a point that your pet dog yelps, growls and barks too much. I go and cut off its tail, or just break its leg. It will yelp, growl, bark and it will do that for HOURS in pain. Will my point be proven then?
                  Come on man think logically. You provoke someone with the most offending thing they know about, then when they react in anger, you say "Hey, point proven. You're a savage".  Your logic is flawed."


                  However, you say the truth needs no defending. I agree but you have to realize if someone's mother isnt a whore, saying that to his face might not elicitate a silent response.

                  P.S: I thank you for your reasonable way of talking. We can make progress on it further. Please ask me if you have further queries, Ill try to answer to the best of my knowledge. smile

  12. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    I believe mocking is legal. It was the depiction  that was offensive. If an audio only radio drama then no demostrations.

  13. sen.sush23 profile image59
    sen.sush23posted 4 years ago

    The film is an utter rubbish as a film- except for the furor that it has spurred. Everything looks kind of planned- but could it not be planned to incite Muslims- knowingly, since they are touchy when it comes to Mohammad? I do not think Christians would also tolerate such non-sense about Jesus; only since Christian states do have a better legal system and police, the riot may get controlled without too much loss to man or property. Yes, there are chances that this could be a terrorist ploy- as also, not being an American or Christian, I see equal reason to suspect it to be an extremist Christian ploy.

    Being an agnostic (which I guess you would equate with athiest, and I do not mind that) to me all religions carry the same kind of academic interest - as fables depicting a time and people. Guess, most medieval Christian Saints seem just as fraud to me- if taken off the shelf of historical significance and made necessary to be deemed as authentic proprietors of Manifest Destiny.

    The way the forum members are impinging charges on lone-man Umar, does not at least speak of a discursive patience and logic from the other half of the world - the Christian one!

    1. umar.shehzad profile image60
      umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks Sen, Actually it is kinda sad that many Muslims chose violence over discussion. I started off by condemning the shameful act of killing the ambassador, and believe me, there are plenty of reasonable and peaceful Muslims, unlike the ones you are seeing in the news nowadays.

      And since No one seems to change their opinion here despite I tried to reason, I will leave my final comment on this thread by stating an incident from the life of our Prophet (SAWW):

      At one point in Mecca, his enemies twisted his name to call him 'Mudhammam' (The loathsome) instead of Muhammad which deeply offended his followers. But the Prophet calmly comforted them by stating" Doesn't it astonish you how God protects me from the Quraish's abusing and cursing? They abuse Mudhammam and curse Muhammam while I am Muhammad. [source; Bukhari]

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Excellent. You would not choose violence when your prophet is insulted. Well done. The more Muslims like you the better. Soon this religion will be eradicated.

        wink

        1. umar.shehzad profile image60
          umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          We'll see. smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Education will get it. Just like it is getting Christianity.

            You cannot hold such ridiculous beliefs in the face of actual knowledge. Might fly in places like Pakistan for a while - but - the Internet will kill it.

            Still did not answer my question - well done. lol

            1. umar.shehzad profile image60
              umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              ok since it's getting late her so I am asking you for the last time, what question are you refering to?? since you've finished off your every comment with a question. wink

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Dear me. sad

                Not going to ask it again - I already have the answer I suspected. sad

            2. Xain Shah profile image60
              Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Knowledge? Hahaha. When I visited america, high school students were unaware whether there were planes in my country or not. I told them I had walked all the way from Pakistan..
              Ill give you one example out of many. Pakistan has had the honour of having the world's youngest microsoft certified professional, Arfa Karim at the age of 9. And now, the record has been broken by another Pakistani who has done it at the age of 8. At the age of 8, every single Pakistani knows enough general knowledge about foreign countries.  And its more than what people twice their age in america possess, making a Pakistani twice as aware and knowledgeable than an average american. What I studied in grade 11 of american high school was what I studied in grade 6 in Pakistan. My teacher used to let me deliver the lectures when the students had difficulty understanding him. So dont talk about knowledge mark.

              And nothing will kill our religion. Our Holy Book is FULLY in the EXACT same form it was originally revealed as. There has been no changes in it for the last 1400+ years, unlike christianity where every man writes his own edition of the bible and you KNOW it. So nope. Islam is going to live long after you and
              your descendants are dead.

              1. twosheds1 profile image61
                twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Wikipedia differs with you on whether or not the Quran has changed:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

                And the comparison with the Bible isn't entirely fair. Different versions of the Bible are different translations. The King James Version, considered by many to be the canonical English translation, dates to the 16th century, whereas the New International Version, the most commonly used today, is a 20th century version of the KJV in a modern vernacular. But that doesn't change the message it contains.

                Also, the Bible is not, nor has it ever claimed to be, a single work by a single person. It is a collection of works from several centuries and several authors, with other books (the Apocrypha) not included in standard Bibles but still considered holy works. (Believers, feel free to correct me)

                As for education, yeah, education in the US sucks. But we have freedom of speech.

                BTW, I'm not a Christian, I'm an atheist. I think all of you are crazy. big_smile

          2. sen.sush23 profile image59
            sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Umar, Mark is just being naughty. Don't mind him..smile

      2. umar.shehzad profile image60
        umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        And when I said "dearer to me than my own mother" that doesn't imply that Islam teaches us to hate our parents.

        this is what Islam teaches us when it comes to our parents: "And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as] 'uff' [i.e., an expression of irritation or disapproval] and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word. And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say: 'My Lord! Have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small.'" [Quran 17:23-24]

  14. Xain Shah profile image60
    Xain Shahposted 4 years ago

    Ok Ill ignore everything else for starters. Ill even ignore the video that caused all this issue. I ask the reasonable person within you all: Isnt it surprising how all us Muslims are loyal to one man who passed away centuries ago even more than our lives, our properties, our everything? Surely there was something remarkable about him? In this age of science and research and easy access of information to everyone, why do we still stick with our religion? These are not the old times when any charismatic person could simply make us follow him. Why has the effect of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad still not diminished (and i mean his original teachings, not the ones distorted by liberal extremists or conservative extremists)? Does that not surprise any of you?

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Xain, the same could be said of us Christians.  Only, we have been loyal longer, through even more years of persecution.  Most unbelieving people will simply say we're crazy and/or deluded and/or unintelligent.  I respect your willingness to step up here, but I can guarantee that your premise will be torn apart in this venue.

      1. sen.sush23 profile image59
        sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Cheers!
        big_smile

      2. Xain Shah profile image60
        Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Motown2Chitown: First of all, let me say i appreciate the respectful tone that you have used, instead of being uselessly rude. And now, to your comment:

        "Xain, the same could be said of us Christians.  "

        "Most unbelieving people will simply say we're crazy and/or deluded and/or unintelligent. "



        Maybe they will. But lets look at some facts with which I will counter your claim before launching my own argument.

        Islam is the world's fastest growing religion right now on the basis of conversions per year. Compare the number of Muslims that convert to other religions vs the number of non muslims that convert to Islam each year, and you will realize that everybody is not mad/wrong/unintelligent. As a Muslim, I believe its because its the true religion, therefore the figures support us. As a christian, perhaps you see it differently, and I wont argue with it.  If you compare the growth of christianity vs the growth of Islam in each of their respective initial 1400 years, Islam's rate of growth as well as magnitude of growth will be higher.
        You can also try and give me the names of 10 famous muslims who left Islam and embraced another religion. I believe you will never succeed. I on the other hand can give you 10 and maybe more examples of famous Christians (and non christians) who became Muslim.

        My purpose is not to go into a debate of whether Islam is the real religion or not. Im simply stating facts here. And the facts say that there is SOMETHING in Islam that continues to draw more and more people into it constantly. You cannot ignore the fact and simply assume everyone is deceived.

        The very same "something" instills in Muslims a sense of loyalty far greater than any this world has ever seen through the ages. The extent of torture that the Companions of Prophet Muhammad bore for him, while expecting nothing in return, is a magnificent example of ultimate loyalty. As a non muslim, it is perhaps impossible for you to even begin to comprehend what that loyalty means.
        You view it just as "people who need an excuse to terrorize or fight and create trouble".  Im trying to explain to you why such extreme response is generated when something is done which the Muslims feel disrespects/insults/makes fun of the Prophet Muhammad. I am not supporting the killing of the ambassador. I openly say that an innocent person must never be targetted/killed. The ambassador, as far as we know did nothing. His death was wrong. But dont let the it be stereotyped on the rest of the Muslims.
        That being said, the feeling of anger that is currently being felt by every Muslims is something that you need to understand. It does not mean we are terrorists. It does not mean we like killing innocent people without an excuse. It wasnt muslims who nuked innocent people. It wasnt muslims who tortured the jews and mass killed them. It was not the Muslims that started slavery in America. It was not Muslims that began calling black people as "niggers". Muslims did not cause any of the World Wars. Muslims did not kill native americans. Muslims committed NONE of the most notorious atrocities of world history. But we dont label christians as terrorists. So why are WE labelled as such? Can it be that its the media? Can it be that theres a well thought out scheme to make the Muslims appear bad to every non muslim?

        How can we make you realize that we are not terrorists, but that we love our Prophet beyond measure and will not tolerate his disrespect in the name of freedom of speech? You know I can probably make a bet with you. There are more christians in this world than Muslims. But I can bet anything, that I can find more muslims willing to die in the name of their Prophet's honour, than you can find devout christians who are willing to do the same in the name of Jesus. So when you say:

        "Xain, the same could be said of us Christians." , I disagree. You cannot compare us with Christians. And it is impossible for you to realize why or how much loyalty we show towards our Prophet. So therefore when a video is made which disrespects him, every single muslim feels a rage. Some of them get out of control and do wrong acts that ISLAM CONDEMNS. But that does not make us all terrorists.

        Having said that, being now aware of the facts I have just stated- Even if you dont share our belief that Prophet Muhammad must not be disrespected, can you not even feel we have even a margin of BELIEVING so? Considering what an extraordinary religion this extraordinary man preached, am I still wrong when I say that he deserves the right to be granted an exemption from the disrespect that the western media does in the name of "freedom of speech"?

        I appeal to the sense of reason that is within your heart.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You are not helping your cause with these threats. Let's have a look at the words you've chosen. "How can we make you realize that we are not terrorists, but that we love our Prophet beyond measure and will not tolerate" You will not tolerate???????

          You let your anger show again here "that I can find more muslims willing to die in the name of their Prophet's honour, than you can find devout christians". umm that sound like a direct threat. Look I'm not from the states but the U.S. has armies everywhere and they are willing and able to die, so stop with the threats.

          I've only decided to discuss this paragraph of your post as that is all I had time for, but the rest is just as misguided and the section I picked.

          I mean no disrespect at all, I personally have never meat a muslim I didn't really like, but your statement has given me pause.

          1. Xain Shah profile image60
            Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Im not threatening, just stating a point. And if I seem or appear to be threatening, it may be the fact that english is not my mother tongue. I dont know how you will react to something I say or what impression you take from it. But let me assure you, thats not a threat. My point was to highlight the level of loyalty and respect we show to the Prophet and in turn try to explain why every muslim was enraged by the video, and why the muslims in general could not accept the disrespect in the name of freedom of speech.

            Secondly, Im not talking about armies. The job of the army is to obey the government or their high command. American army probably has all kinds of religions in it. Pakistani army has hindus and sikhs in it too. So them fighting for a reason is not the same as an average religious muslim or christian willing to die for the cause of his religion.

            Finally, when i say "...we will not tolerate..." I do not say "or else" etc. I am simply saying that it is extremely offensive for a muslim to hear about the Prophet being disrespected. When I say "i will not tolerate the disrespect of my Prophet" I imply that I condemn any disrespect shown towards him and that I do not appreciate, nor like to see any such disrespect. Let me be very clear: if you swear at my mother for example and I hit you back out of anger, no one will say anything. But if you say the same thing about my Prophet and I retaliate in the same way, you will label me a terrorist, and will call islam as an extremist religion. That is what my point is. THATS what i want to be stopped. We see nuns covering their body fully, but when a muslim woman covers her body, you tell us we are wrong and start pointing fingers at our religion. Thats just one of the many examples I can provide where things done by other religions are ignored by the non muslims but not when the muslims do them.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well, if certainly sound threatening when one says " I will not tolerate" because it implies action. Two things need to happen.
              1. non-muslims need to learn respect.
              2. muslims need to lighten up because non-muslims will show disrespect from time to time.

              Most non-muslims are respectful just as most muslims are not terrorists. It just takes a few on each side to cause all the problems. Christians have learned to lighten up, Muslims need to learn the same.

              I don't think it help that you are trying to justify the anger rather than trying to condemn the anger. Trust me Christians feel the same about Jesus as muslim do for Mohammad. Saying that this is not the case will inside anger.

              1. Xain Shah profile image60
                Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "Most non-muslims are respectful just as most muslims are not terrorists. It just takes a few on each side to cause all the problems."

                Once you say that, you pretty much agree with what Im trying to say. However when you say:

                "I don't think it help that you are trying to justify the anger rather than trying to condemn the anger." 

                This is where the difference of belief comes in. You cannot ask a Muslim to have all the same beliefs as a christian for example. if a christian drinks wine you cant ask us to drink it. And asking us to relax at the disrespect of our Prophet is exactly similar to that- its an integral part of our religion. We cannot abandon it Rad Man. It does not mean we have to kill every non muslims randomly. It does not mean we go and kill the ambassador of usa. The ones who did that were wrong. But when you say we should lighten up, you are essentially asking us to change something thats given in our religion. On the very same principle, maybe you can tell us to eat pork. Hey why not? We need to lighten up right? Why get angered when our Prophet is disrespected? Just chill, its the freedom of speech. Why not eat pork? Just lighten up...eat it cuz the christians are doing it too.

                That is a most ludicrous suggestion. Effectively, you basically want us to to be muslims as long as we dont follow islam, and thats not gonna happen. And dont interpret it as a threat, or as a disrespect. I am simply saying your point is not valid. When our prophet is disrespected, we take offense. We feel insulted. Just the way you might  (Im not even sure if you would) if I insult your parents in front of you.

                This is just a part of our faith. So no. When the Prophet is disrespected, whenever that happens, we will condemn it. We will oppose it. We will take offense. We will never like it. We will always say: Hey this is wrong. I again repeat we will not murder innocent people. But try to understand that it is a part of our religion to feel that the disrespect of our Prophet is wrong.

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                adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @Rad man
                u say evry christian is not disrespectful as evry muslim is not terrorist ... so u r accepting dat some r disrespectful ...... so on the equal basis of humanity dun u think dat those disrespectful people should be sued?? coz they said offensive things which isnt the part of freedom of offend any body!! in the charter of UN..... If we can fight alongside u, wid terrorists dn y cant u stand wid us in dis offensive matter?? isnt it hypocrisy?? u want our help in dat matter wich z offensive n dangerous 4 u bt u dun give a damn about us and our offensiveness n belives?? hoping 4 the answer!!!

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              In other words, you will resort to violence because you believe your prophet has been insulted.

              That would make Islam a violent religion, not one of peace.

              1. Xain Shah profile image60
                Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                once again, as always, I repeat:

                The violence committed, the innocents harmed and their property damaged AND the american ambassador murdered, was in no way Islamic and was WRONG.

                Why do you keep missing that out from all of my posts? Im trying to make you understand that the extreme vulgarity of the film brought out unnecessary violence. Im saying I can understand why it resulted in the violence, but that does NOT mean i say its right. It. WAS. WRONG. Shouldnt have happened. Islam is not a religion of violence and hate.
                Period.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  And yet, you contradict yourself, "the extreme vulgarity of the film brought out unnecessary violence"

                  Yes, the violence was unnecessary, but it was spurred by Islam and Islam alone.

                  1. twosheds1 profile image61
                    twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    NPR reported that the riots were deliberately stirred up by a few radical imams. I think the fact that there wasn't a general freak-out in the Islamic world underscores that.

                    But any irrational belief - especially religion - can lead to violence. The very fact that you (or anyone) believes that their holy books are infallible is a recipe for disaster.

                  2. Xain Shah profile image60
                    Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @ a troubled man:

                    "Yes, the violence was unnecessary, but it was spurred by Islam and Islam alone."

                    Me and you are looking at the same thing from a different point of view and while I respect that, Ill have to respectfully reject your point of view simply because the provocation came first and the response was a reaction to it and came next.

                    A murderer for example, becomes a murderer only when his target/victim DIES. Do you blame the dead man for turning the assaulter into a murderer, or do you blame the murderer for assaulting the victim in the first place?

                    I feel you are just not listening to any logic that I present, and are bent upon just throwing the blame my way. If the example I just gave did not convince you that your comment  (quoted at the start of this post) was wrong, Im not sure what will. I am however, still here to discuss any further point with you.

          2. 59
            adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @rad man
            If u havent understood wat xain wz talking abt after all the stuff he has said!! dn no one cn make u understand!! .... u r not willing to understand!! ur mind n heart r sealed!!
            by using words like not tolerating n ready to die for depicts d ultimate love 4 our Prophet PBUH .... not threats!! if u deliberately consider it threats dn no one cn stop 4m doing so n make u understand!!! ..... and u said US army is ready to die ..believe me they dun even want to see an inch of that thing we call death!! n if they die they vl die 4 duty unwillingly!!! bt evry muslim is ready to die out ov pure n true love only that what makes a big difference!!!!!!

            1. pisean282311 profile image58
              pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @adnan amazing love , where one can kill innocent fellow human being for sake of 6th century old man and that too because some idiot made some film and person killed was not even associated with the film...wow...love is blind goes saying but love is dumb too?

              1. 59
                adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @pisean
                I already said m not in favor of killing innocent ones!!! m against it!!! bt it wz only d reaction ov those who love our Prophet wid xtremity!!! they got blind in dat love!!! now m accepting dat wat happened 2 d ambassador wz wrong!! evry christian z not d same!!! wud u agree wid me! dat tiz movie wz rubbish?? n d person shud b sued?? he hz no rite to anything lyk dat?? wich z much more offensive dan one cn imagine?? together v cn solve dz issue wid mutual consensus........ bt if someone dun bother abt us at all!! and straight away streotype us!! dn m sorry 2 say america z also not full of saints n angels!!! if know humanity n respect it!! dn u shud accept n consider my points!!!!
                As d war of terrorism wz fought by u and we together!! actually it wz not even our war!! bt out ov humanity n Teachings ov Islam we stood beside u!! wudnt u b d one now to stood beside us???? is it humanity ov America???? and is it humanity to disrespect a Personality who has a billion die hard followers??? u shud condemn it all over america!!! n make an apology!!!!

                1. pisean282311 profile image58
                  pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  @adnan in usa you can disrespect jesus too...no one would see fanatics killing for that...there are civilized ways of doing protest..if one feels hurt go to court...full stop...no prophet or messiah or god's disrespect can justify killing of fellow human being...now coming to war on terror.. how it is not your war?...do u want shias to be eliminated , ahamadis to be tortured , sufis to die?...all other faiths become extinct...if not then it is your war too...al queda is threat first to muslim world then to rest...they r cancer to humanity...no sane person can impose his/her belief on others...war on terror is war for humanity and muslims have responsibility towards world to get rid of extremism in islam as it is responsibility of other faiths to get rid of extremism from their faiths..

                  1. Xain Shah profile image60
                    Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The avergae american, who now vehemently opposes alqaida, had never even HEARD of the name before 9/11. Alqaida was NOT killing muslims at all. We had NO issue with it. America IMPOSED the war on us and we helped because we were allies. Our soldiers have died far more than american soldiers and why? Because america wants revenge against the terrorists who killed some of its citizens. They have forgotten that their own army has lost more people that alqaida could possibly have killed in a decade. We Pakistanis have lost more military personal and civilians than america. Before we stepped into this war, we had NO suicide bombs going on in our country. We are facing them because we helped america. Its easy for america to say its fighting the war against terror when all it does is use drones to bomb innocent people of its own allied state. You're not the ones facing suicide bombs every single day.

                    So NOPE. This is not and was NOT our war. And if we have sacrificed so much for america in a matter that did not concern us, perhaps americans should have had the decency to openly oppose this video on a larger scale, to show harmony with us.

                  2. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @PISEAN
                    If its not a big deal in USA! dn d world z not confined to USA! evry region has its own customs n priorities!! u may not bother abt ur religion but u cant compel anyone to b carefree!! its our human right n freedom to love n follow wat we want to!! its 4 d last tym m saying dat v r against dat murder!! even our government showed sympathy 2 d ambassader and condolence!! n see wat america did in response 2 dat video?? did they even stated a word ov apology because it wz after all an american to do so!!!
                    Now come to war on terror ...u r not getting my point!! m saying v r against terrorism now!! bt the war on terror if i take u bk wz started 4m the attack on twin towers!! do u agree?? at that time there wz peace here?? no killing no blasts at all!!! wat u pointing abt shia is only inter sect war which wz much more older than terrorism want even born at that time!! when we cooperated wid war on terror!! then they started to bomb our cities our places 4 the reason ..why we took a stand alongside wid u against them? afterall they were Muslims but a thing Islam considers wrong is wrong no matters wat i costs!! after we became a pray to terrorism!! we r trying 2 do so!! bt m trying to say if v havent stood alongside wid u on tat twin tower issue! we wud hav been saved!! yet we condemned it!! its ur responsibility american people and america itself to sue dat person n apologize 4 his shameful acts!!!
                    btw osama wz created by Mr Bush he wz a allie to him in the war ov soviet union n afghanistan!! inorder to tear down soviet union Bush created him!!! yet its another issue!! we wud leave these facts 4 now!!!

        2. Quilligrapher profile image90
          Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Assalamu Alaikum, Xain Shah. May the spirit of Muhammad always flourish in your heart.

          I understand your personal beliefs and your respect for the prophet Muhammad. However, I am curious about your claim “Islam is the world's fastest growing religion right now on the basis of conversions per year.” What is your source of this conclusion? Why do you believe this statement is true? While there is ample evidence the Muslim population is growing, net conversions do not seem to be the cause. 

          Scholarly research reported by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life projects the growth in the Muslim population globally to be slower than the previous two decades. “While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a slower pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades.” {1} The same data indicate “In the United States, for example, the population projections show the number of Muslims more than doubling over the next two decades, rising from 2.6 million in 2010 to 6.2 million in 2030, in large part because of immigration and higher-than-average fertility among Muslims.”

          However, research data suggest you may be mistaken about conversions. “What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems to be roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith.” {2} As a result, the rate of conversions is NOT a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth.

          Based upon these studies, you may need to reconsider your assumption “the facts say that there is SOMETHING in Islam that continues to draw more and more people into it constantly.”

          I am looking forward to reviewing your source or sources that claim conversions are a major cause for the global increase of Muslims in the world.
          http://s2.hubimg.com/u/6919429.jpg
          {1} http://www.pewforum.org/The-Future-of-t … ation.aspx
          {2} http://www.pewforum.org/future-of-the-g … rsion.aspx

          1. 59
            adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @quilligrapher
            u want evidences dan see 4 urself!!
            According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: "Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity".Part of the books quote can be seen online from this extract from Google Books. This was again shown in the 2005, 50th anniversary edition of Guinness Book of World Records, although the number of conversions was not mentioned this time.

            In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had risen to around 1.2 billion by the year 2000, meaning that around this time one in five people were followers of Islam. According to the BBC, a comprehensive American study concluded in 2009 the number stood at 1 in 4 with 60% of Muslims spread all over the Asian continent: "A report from an American think-tank has estimated 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world - with 60% in Asia". The report was done by the Pew Forum Research Centre.The forum also projected that in 2010 out of the total number of Muslims in the world 62.1% will live in Asia.
            A REMINDER IS DAT GUINNESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS N BBC ARE UR STANDARDS OF RESEARCH N STATS SO NOW U WONT COMPLAIN ABT THE INTEGRITY OF D INFO PROVIDED!!! THANKS!

        3. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Xain, I might have a hard time responding to this, because our belief systems are so far apart.  BUT, despite that, the behavior of the adherents to our respective belief systems is not.  Over the course of history, Christians have killed, tortured, lied, stolen, and done a million other immoral things for the sake of 'growing' our religion.  There is absolutely no way around that.  While you point out that your religion is growing faster than Christianity right now, you are wrong in assuming that means it's because it's truer or better in any way.  Now is just the time for Islam to experience what Christianity has been experiencing for over 2000 years.  Unfair persecution in some cases, yes.  Many, however, are justified in their fear of Islam just as many over history have been justified in their fear of Christianity -as an organized religion.  What you are experiencing in Islam today is a more organized, more structured practice of your beliefs.  That's been happening in Christianity for a great deal longer. 

          Here in the West, there is much more of a 'live and let live' approach.  Christians believe in many circumstances quite quietly because those who don't believe leave them alone to live as they choose.  In return, Christians leave unbelievers alone as well.  Perhaps it's because we've arrived at the understanding that if you live your faith (or lack thereof) truly, compassionately, and lovingly, you'll often realize the ACTIONS fostered by the belief (and unbelief) are the same.  Ultimately, I believe we all want peace.  I think Christianity has FINALLY, save for some marginal extremist groups, achieved at least some level of peace among those who believe differently or not at all.

          Islam is in the middle of an upsurge.  People who practice the faith are currently quite passionate about it and convinced that it is THE be all and end all of faith.  It is THE true faith in the eyes of its believers - just as Christianity is THE true faith in the eyes of some others.  Just like Judaism is THE true faith in the eyes of some folks, and Buddhism is THE only way to God for some.  But, wait, Hindus are really the only ones who have it right.....and the argument goes on, ad infinitum.

          Unfortunately, you can't point to certain spiritual belief systems and truthfully say that there are terrorists among their ranks.  You can do that with Islam.  I'm not a shrinking violet, and I can tell you honestly (but with a great deal of sadness in my heart) that you can say the same of Christians.  The only difference is that for years, Christian terrorists didn't have IED's and, as you said quite accurately, weren't willing to DIE for their faith as the early martyrs of our faith were willing to do.

          Islam is no better than Christianity.  That is not the reason its adherents are more 'loyal' as you say.  It is simply the time when Islam is becoming more widely recognized and organized.  Those are the two things that cause conversion in large numbers - in any religion.

          I have dear friends who are Muslims.  They are peace loving people as a rule.  I am a Christian.  I believe in the teachings of Christ.  Unfortunately, many of YOUR Muslim brothers and sisters want to advance their faith and their causes at any price - even to the point of becoming terrorists.  Many of mine have simply already done so, and found out it won't be tolerated.

          Peace.

          1. twosheds1 profile image61
            twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well said, Mo!

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. smile

            2. sen.sush23 profile image59
              sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Mo, even I wanted to say 'thank you' for this entire piece of analysis. Hope others paid attention.

        4. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          And just one last thing.  Watch some anti-Christian videos some day.  Listen to the stand up comedy of some American comics.  Watch a couple of Monty Python movies.  I don't believe any truly GOOD religious prophet deserves to be maligned, disrespected, and castigated.  BUT, feeling offended and retaliating in violence are totally different things.  AND violence is NEVER an acceptable response. 

          PERIOD.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            If Christians can watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail with a smile on there face, surely we can teach the Muslims to lighten up. Very very good point.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks, Rad.  I f*rt in your general direction.

              wink

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                ha ha ha. You know as a kid I just didn't get the scene where one of the guys comes across a castle full of beautiful willing women while he is search for the holy grail and his friend comes in and drags him out to search for the grail. I didn't get that scene at all, but once one understands what the holy grail is it become hilarious.

                Sorry, onto more important things, but beware of the rabbit. He has big sharp teeth.

                1. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Right?!  I still don't think my husband gets that scene...LOL

                  big_smile

          2. Xain Shah profile image60
            Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I find it disrespectful to watch any video that humiliates or unsults any religion. Thats what Islam is about, and you totally fail to see. We respect everyone. As for you saying that thing about the terrorists.... Please dont blame islam for every action that any terrorist does while declaring they are muslims. Tell me what would happen if alqaida convetred to christianity? Would all of the peaceful christianity suddenly be terrorists? How about if all islamic scholars globally declare the terrorists as non muslims? Would your belief in islam as the religion of terrorists change in just one day?

            I can argue about Islam being better than Christianity, but at the moment it is not the topic of concern and will only create further discussion and dispute. Also, I might not be qualified enough to defend it myself. But please answer the questions i just asked. smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is awesome. How do you show adulterers that you respect them? What does the Quran say about unbelievers? Can you be friends with them or should you avoid them and never be friends?

              Respect:

              Unbelievers

              "Rather you wish to put questions to your Apostle, as Musa was questioned before; and whoever adopts unbelief instead of faith, he indeed has lost the right direction of the way."

              Believers who come to reason

              "Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray."

              "And let not those grieve you who fall into unbelief hastily; surely they can do no harm to Allah at all; Allah intends that He should not give them any portion in the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement."


              How is that respect?

              And I certainly suggest you avoid the Internet in future. Perhaps that is the answer? Because there is a lot of disrespect towards religion around. wink

            2. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              First, I don't blame Islam for every Muslim terrorists.  I don't remember saying that I did, and after re-reading my response, I am certain that I did not say that.  If Al-Qeada suddenly converted to Christianity, it would be because they thought it an advantageous move on their part - certainly not because they were true believers in Christ.  IF they did it because of faith, the terrorism on their part would stop.  Christ's legitimate teachings do not advocate violence. 

              Second, I did not say that all Christianity is peaceful.  I said that we have embraced peace over time because the quiet practice of our faith has become more acceptable and tolerated.  I also stated that there are still (to my dismay) extremists who believe that conversion must come at any cost - including violence. 

              Lastly, my faith didn't come to being in just one day, and will never change in just one day. 

              I do not denounce Islam as a violent religion.  I denounce violence as a religion in itself.  And, terrorists, regardless of which faith they espouse, follow violence as their religion.  They do not practice violence as a result of the teachings of their faith.  That's an excuse.  Give me a decent reason for violence, aside from the defense of a person's life, and I'll find some validity in your argument.  Terrorism has no reason - just excuses - and whether a terrorist is a Muslim or a Christian, he/she is wrong.

            3. twosheds1 profile image61
              twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry to butt in, but I felt like I should answer your questions. No thinking person believes al Qaeda represents all of Islam, any more than Anders Breivik, Timothy McVeigh or the IRA represents all of Christianity.

              The fact remains, though, that most people one would call "terrorists" are Muslim. Why is that? My personal opinion is that it has less to do with Muslim theology and more to do with the fact that many people in the Muslim world feel powerless and marginalized. Terrorism is a weapon of the powerless. I think also the fact that there are very few democracies in the Muslim world. How many terrorists are Turkish? (Not that Turkey is a model of democracy, but it is more democratic than, say, Sudan or Saudi Arabia) I would also point out that Turkey, despite being a Muslim majority nation, also has a secular goverment. THAT probably makes a bigger difference than anything. The most religious governments are also the most repressive. But it is wrong to think that if a government would be democratic if it was based on Christianity or Judaism. Israel is a great example of the clash between secular and religious elements. We all know how well that's going.

              Xain, I'm interested in hearing your opinion. Thanks for your comments.

        5. grand old lady profile image90
          grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well said, twosheds1. My question to Xain is, what are the acceptable boundaries of a moderate Muslim? For example, you mention the growth of Muslim conversions. Would a moderate Muslim believe the penalty for conversion, say, a Muslim to a Christian, is death for the crime of apostasy? Also, you say there is a right to protest this horrible film. However, there are common incidents in the Middle East of Muslims who have converted to another faith, and rocks are thrown at their house regularly because of it. Would this be acceptable to a moderate Muslim? I think there needs to be a clearer understanding on the views of moderate Muslims regarding incidents like these, including honor killings, caning a woman for wearing pants, cutting a man's hand off for theft, these are things that are very strange to secular and Christian cultures. I wonder what are the commonalities of moderate Muslims with secular and Christian cultures regarding things like these?

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No, it does not surprise me. As Motown has stated Christians are no different. But that does not mean you are right. It may mean you are misguided and it may mean you are rationalizing  your convictions, but it certainly doesn't mean that because he has people willing to die for him that he is right. Hitler comes to mind, meaning no disrespect in associating your prophet with Hitler, but Hitler did command a lot of people to die for him and was successful. Do you really think Jesus was the son of God because there are more Christians then Muslims? It matters not how many followers one has. The Quran states the earth is the shape of an egg, we know that to be incorrect. Right?

      1. Xain Shah profile image60
        Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Rad Man. I am not rationalizing my convictions. The facts I stated are undeniable. Like I said, surely everyone cant be wrong when they rush and embrace Islam..why not any other religion?

        Secondly you mentioned hitler. Yes, if he had people willing to die for him, it does NOT mean he was right. But we have a slight difference here, and thats the matter of Muhamamd  (pbuh) having passed away over 1400 YEARS ago. Did hitler have even one man who would die for him 10 years after his suicide? Are you still missing out the incredible level of loyalty? Surely theres something behind it, no? Something thats present in every muslims irrespective of race, color, age, gender, location. Dont you see?

        And no, jesus cannot be taken as the son of God because there are more christians than muslims. You are giving a wrong example of numbers.. The examples of numbers that I gave indicated a constant rise and a very rapid growth of Islam by conversions alone. Honestly man, do you think people are losing their senses on a global level?

        And finally you mentioned a fact, rather an accusation.  I have not ever heard of any such fact ever being in the Quran. Kindly provide a reference to it, where exactly in the Quran is it stated. And if you do not find it, then kindly have the decency to apologize for a false accusation, as will I if I falsely accuse anybody about anything in the course of my argument.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Sura 79:30 reads

          Wal'arda ba'da dhalika dahaha

          "He made the earth egg-shaped."

          1. Xain Shah profile image60
            Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Let me start off by saying that the exact interpretation of the Quran requires extensive, and I mean EXTENSIVE knowledge of the Arabic language. Muslim scholars spend years learning it, whereas the normal arabic language can be learnt in a much smaller time interval. I personally know Arabs who cannot interpret the Quran or explain the meanings of various expressions used in it.
            Now neither of us is an expert at arabic. But i have sufficient knowledge to tell you that Arabic is one of the most versatile languages ever. Just about every word has multiple meanings, sometimes very different from one another. Had the Quran been revealed in english, you would have been right completely. The problem is that the Quran says the earth is "dahaha", and not exactly "egg shaped".
            The word dahaha has several meanings. And it depends on how you interpret it. It can be taken to mean "expanding" which refers to the continental drift which is a known scientific fact. If you use the "egg shaped" interpretation, even then since it is not LITERALLY said to be "egg shaped" theres a difference. It is a scientific fact that the earth bulges at the equator and is pressed at the poles, making it not a perfect sphere but slightly egg shaped.

            Its the same as me saying "a square is a rectangle" and you saying Im wrong. While technically every square is indeed a rectangle, you can take a rather literal point of view and say "is a square a square, or is it a rectangle"? But that would be argument just for the sake of an argument.

            My command of english language is being tested highly here... An alternate example would be if I say your head is egg shaped, and you saying that no human head can ever truly be egg shaped, in the most literal of terms. Now I was referring to the shape in general whereas you would be taking it literally. I hope Im clear in expressing the fact that the word dahaha has multiple interpretations.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Your English seems perfect to me. You seem highly articulate. The is in no way egg shaped. I've heard people say "well he must have meant an ostrich egg" but ostrich eggs are also not close to the shape of the earth. To be fair, if these works actuarially came from God the words would be perfect. God would have described the shape and size of the earth so there would be no denying if came from God. You'd have me if it was perfect, but it's not, so do you think one should love and protect the honour of a long since dead person who may have deceived you and married a nine year old child over your own parents who most likely paid for you very expensive education?

            2. grand old lady profile image90
              grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We have many Filipino Muslims who speak Arabic so they can understand the Koran. However, they are at a distinct disadvantage to native Arab speakers. I understand that to be an Imam, you really have to be a scholar of Islamic writings. However, the way the Imam interprets these writings vary from mosque to mosque, which is why radicals belong to one mosque, perhaps moderates to another. Imams emphasize parts of Koran according to their personal choice and what is relevant to their community. My point being, if two Imams have different points of view on aspects of the Islamic writings, what does that mean? Is a Turkish Muslim considered less of a Muslim than a Muslim from another country, say, Saudi Arabia or Lebanon or Iraq? When you try to understand Islam and its nuances, it can open many questions, but it is also a necessary part of learning.

          2. 59
            adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @Rad man
            dahaha is derived 4m d root word dhueya which z called egg shaped bt here egg z reffered 2 of ostrich egg ( also a place where ostrich lays its eggs which z also in ostrich's egg shaped) which is GEoid or geo spherical in shape!!! n u can search any where in d world d shape v d earth which has been proved dat d earth z Geoid or geospherical in shape!!! Hopes the answer ov ur misunderstanding!! If u hv any other questions about Islamn feel free to ask!!! any thing which u cnsider an error!!!! n when u r finished i vl ask about christianity , jews n atheism!! erros coz i hv studied a bit ov everything!!!! so lets see whats ur irrational points may be!!!!!

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              An ostrich egg is not shaped anything like the earth. An ostrich egg is shaped more like a pill. This is you misunderstanding. As I said in another post if the Quran truly came from God it would be perfect. God would have found the words to describe the earth and he would have given dimensions. The same problems exist in the bible, but still people killing each other books. It's kind of silly really.

              1. 59
                adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                earth is geo spherical or Geoid in shape!!! which has very muc close resemblance or identical to an ostrich egg!! u hv to research on tat one!!
                He doesnt only meant it he knew it!! dhueya z an arabic word for an ostrich egg!!! u gv me ur reason to prove me wrong n i gv u mine!!!! bt talk only wid reference!!! where it has been defied dat earth z not geo spherical or geoid? Bible has no idea abt the earth's shape jx coz it has been modified!! do u think its also not a word ov God?
                n u answer me one question How can a person 1400 years back came to know dat earth is in ostrich like shape resembling to it? what ur logic says abt it?? how He found it out??? by measuring it at dat tym??
                n 1400 years back how Muhammad PBUH wrote te stages of embryology one by one in sequence when mankind wz not even aware of the name feotus? how? wats ur atheist logic say abt it? can a human do it??

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  At that time only Europeans thought the earth to me flat. An ostrich egg is nothing like the earth. It is completely the wrong description. Do you not see that.

                  http://s1.hubimg.com/u/7167220_f248.jpg

                  1. grand old lady profile image90
                    grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I think also the Koran says salt water and fresh water don't mix. But scientifically, they do. If you put salt water in a glass of water, you will see that they mix.. In the oceans, it's called brackish water and fish prevail in these waters.

  15. Billy Hicks profile image89
    Billy Hicksposted 4 years ago

    http://i.imgur.com/xIPsC.png

  16. LeanMan profile image81
    LeanManposted 4 years ago

    Which football team has the most violent supporters? Football to many is like religion and people can take it very seriously and perform acts of violence in support of their team or against an opposing team. The teams of course do not want then fans to commit acts of violence nor do they ask them to.

    But us people go out of our way to associate ourselves with a "tribe" and act with violence against the other "tribe." We as a people are violent!

    This is so much like two groups of schoolboys fighting just because they go to schools on opposite sides of the same town! You will always get some idiot that takes things too far and sets fire to the other school in the holidays or brings a knife to the after school punch up! But just because one individual acts poorly it should not reflect on the other students.

    Back to my work, will leave the school boys to see who can pee highest up the wall.......

    1. sen.sush23 profile image59
      sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      True!....big_smile big_smile big_smile

    2. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @Lean
      i think u hv forgotten d football riots!! which killed many people in different times!!! there were riots only coz ov love!! people may love football players bt in Islam its a matter ov life n death 4 us!! its d basic constituent ov Islam!! same goes here!!! kiling d innocent wz not d rite thing!! bt tit 4 tat!! its wz jx spontaneous reaction , by it u cn magine its severity!! and love!!! ..... wats d point in offendng Muslims?? wat vl dy get outta it?? i cnt understand!! jx hatred!! if u r a hater ov something dn u shudnt go n harm it infront ov its lover u hv no rite to do so!!!! its jx lyk suppose m a hater ov ur parents n i go n stab ur parents wid a knife! wat will u do?? u vl call me a school boy?? and say its ok not a big deal?? or if someone rape ur mother n make a porn video ov it?? will u jx sit n njoy? if u do so? dn u dun know wat humanity z? n wats d status ov a family in humanity!!!

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @adnan u r right people r crazy ...religion is last thing which must cause violence...no love justifies violence...life of human being is more important that any religion or sports or politics...all r for human and not beyond humans...better sense must prevail and there r civilized ways to act than 6th centuries ways of sword ...i hope muslim world become mature in reactions...go to court but for humanity sake dont kill others...

        1. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @PISEAN
          exactly i already said!! that Islam condems the killing ov innocent ones even in battles Islam condems to damage trees n animals!! i cn give u verses abt tat!! Islam has never stated 4 only muslims!! it has always said (ya aye han naa)) o humans!! a religions wich z not stereotyped 2 any caste n area how cn u say dat its barbaric in nature?? de people who responded were jx too much emotional!! every love has priorities u hv to understand m nt justifying it m jx putting forth there point ov view!!!
          if u stand beside us in protesting n help us n condemn dat movie maker dn wat r d odds!! .... as we stood beside u in war of terror!! it wasnt our war at awl yet according to d teachings of islam we condemned it!! similarly we want positivity 4m america too!! the think tanks of america!! d gud people!!! m sure there are gud people there!! we shud not stereotype a nation!!! n believe me there z a communication gap between d two nations two civilizations!!! which have to b covered by people lyk us!!!

        2. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @pisean
          Islam values life upto that xtent that u cn even lie about ur religion to save ur life!! if u r surrounded by enemy!! then how cn imagine dat islam teaches hate?? there wz a time in d west which z refered to as dark ages! the people were more dan barbaric at times in west!! u know very well!! bt for now! i wud advice to study islam by urself to understands its true meaning!! n plz stop following western media n haters who make rumours about Islam!

          1. pisean282311 profile image58
            pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @adnan theory means nothing man...what one does with theoritical concept is what matter...on streets of pakistan , libya , syria , afghan , sudan what we see matters...

            1. 59
              adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @pisean
              i will tell u wats going on in streets of pakistan n afghan .. there are drones attacks which r worth ov a single sorry if mis judged!! a person who lost his family in a drone attack wat wud he do?? he vl start to hate america 4 killing his family 4 nothing n will try to take revenge coz its basic human psyche!! so u r creating terrorist instead ov eradicating it dude!!! u r not aware ov the ground realitiess!!!!!
              IN SHORT AMERICA AND AMERICAN PEOPLE HAS NO GUTS AT ALL TO ACCEPT THE FACTS AND THEIR DISCREPENCIES AND FLAWS AND APOLOGIZE 4 WAT THEY HV DONE!!! HUMANITY TEACHES US APOLOGY IF WE DID SOMETHING WHICH WZ WRONG!! ITS NOT ABT SAM BECILE ITS ABT TE INTEGRITY OV THE WHOLE AMERICAN NATION!! APOLOGY RISES UP UR CHARACTER!! I CNT SEE ANY HUMANITY HERE!!! NEGROS ARE JX REPLACED BY MUSLIMS HERE!! SHAME!!!!

              1. pisean282311 profile image58
                pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @adnan right...usa is behind lashkar ae jhanvi or taliban which kills shias?...usa is behind karachi killings?...usa is behind syria regime killing sunnis...u take responsibility of cancer within dude , then tell world what to do...if u have guts set ur islamic world in order...let there be peace...let shias be shias , let sufis remain in peace , let ahamadi remain in peace and then tell world what to do...

                1. 59
                  adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  @PISEAN
                  y in the name of God even m i discussing wid u!! u cnt get even minute point ov mine!!!!!
                  last tym xplaining
                  these all n obama was created by Bush during the dayz ov soviet union n afghan war , inorder to destry soviet union which atlast Bush succeded in his strategy! then afterwardz he planned to reach the oil rich countries ov Asia! to take hold v oil!! so he planned 9/11 as so many documentaries ov ur suggested that its inner job!!
                  before 9/11 we werent aware of anything like bombing!! there wz peace all around!! shia sunni wars r inter religious inter sect wars coz they hv contradicting points there wz no alqaeda or lashkar invlolved at tat tym!!!
                  then we stood up wid u in 9/11 war n thus v became the enemies of alqaeda n lashkar! so v got damaged by bombing as well as drones of our allie! killing 30000 people! making no sense!! but muslim blood z nothing not worth ov a penny!! in ur sight!!
                  v r till now been damaged by the war which wz imposed on us!!!
                  N BE RATIONAL N LOGICAL DUDE!! Y WUD AMERICA SPEND BILLION OV DOLLARS ON AFGHANISTAN N IRAQ? DO U THINK BUSH N JEWISH LOBBY LOVED AMERICAN PEOPLE SO MUCH? THAT THEY WUD DESTROY THEIR BILLION DOLLARS ON JX A MEANINGLESS WAR!!! IF JEWS EVER CARED OV U THEN ON 9/11 ALL THE JEWS WONT HAVE BEEN ON LEAVE!!! THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT JEW N MONEY THEY OWN AMERICA! U DUN EVEN HAVE A BANK TO MAKE DOLLAR ITS OWNED BY JEWS RUTHS CHILDS FAMILY!!! INSHORT!! GET OUT OV ILLUSION THAT AMERICA IS FULL OF SAINTS N ANGELS!!! N TRY TO LEARN HOW TO APOLOGIZE 4 UR BAD DEEDS!! COZ ONE PERSON Z DESTROYING THE WHOLE AMERICAN IMAGE!!! HE Z REPRESENTING AMERICA!!! TRY 2 BE DIFFERENT!!! ALLAH HAFIZ

                  1. pisean282311 profile image58
                    pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    even i felt same , why am i discussing with u when u cant get simple point that u have to respect others right to have them respect urs...prophet may be special for u but for others prophet is mere normal human being...If u want others to respect ur feeling , learn how to respect others feelings which include right to criticize....stop behaving like spoilt kid...i would kill them because they said x y z to prophet....what kind of attitude it this?...respect others right to express ...if u find it offensive approach court...full stop...

        3. Xain Shah profile image60
          Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yeeeeeeeeeeeees. Thats what me, adnan and uamr have been trying to say since the very beginning. We say that the killing of the ambassador and other innocents was WRONG. Islam holds the human life  (of every religion) VERY high. Yes it was wrong. But the whole discussion arose on the fact that while everyone is condemning the actions of those libyans, no one seems to mind the video itself and everyone is trying to tell us to just chill out and accept it cuz hey, everyone has a freedom of speech. That is what the argument is about. Do you see my point?

  17. LeanMan profile image81
    LeanManposted 4 years ago

    The only people that want violence are the people committing it! No one else in any society wants it!

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @leanman agreed...most muslims r peace loving people...but i would appreciate if they come out openly more often and take on extremist islamist who have hijacked their faith...prophet is normal human being for rest of people who r not muslim and like any historical figure he is not above criticism..if they feel hurt they should launch complain in civilized manner rather than killing of other innocents who have nothing to do with critics...

      1. 59
        adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @pisean
        if our Prophet is eligible to disrespect! than i am eligible to rape ur sister coz its my right then!!! u hv to understand n u cant sue me at all!!!! so when vl i have to come?? answer me???
        u know its not only critics grow up!! it wz a planned plot by jewish lobby of america who donated 50 crore ruppess 4 d movie!! why wud they do so?? maximum budget ov the movie wud b round abt not more than a crore!!!!! grow up man dun b brain washed n stereotyped!!! u hv to see both sides of the picture!!!!!
        Have u watched a movie (UNTHINKABLE) lots ov american army soldiers converts to islam! when they the facts by there own eyes in iraq n afghanistan n pakistan!!!!!!!

        1. pisean282311 profile image58
          pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @adnan no u r not eligble to rape any one....it is barbaric to rape any one and barring few stone aged countries illegal every where.. but eveyr historical figure can be critized...it is intellectual scrutiny...none from martin luther to galileo to muhammad to alexander are beyond critisim...ur analogy is deeply flawed and i hope rape is crime even in ur country...otherwise i feel sorry for women there..

          1. 59
            adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @PISEAN
            Crime z jx the boundaries , that how much one has to widen it! or narrow!! in our country going beyond moral values is a crime!!!
            if i am not eligible 4 disrespecting ur sister dn u r definitely nt eligible to disrespect our Prophet!!! grow up man!! u r illogical!!!
            believe me u hv done things far beyond than barbaric u jx hv to consider it n get out ov tat dilemma that media has created on whole ov america!!
            whats legal in america is illegal here!! n if u consider humanity universal then u shud get out ov the boundaries ov america n consider evry nation!!!!!  civilized society has their prper ways ov criticism!! not lyk these offensive methods!! which r eligible to 2 sued!! i dun know abt others!! bt dun disrespect ur people ur things ur history u shudnt disrespect ourz!! respect z wat gv n take!! tit 4 tat!!! a dun gv a shit abt others bt if my property z robbed! then i hv by any means the right to protest n sue!! he wz te same person who wanted to burn a bunch of Quran! now u wud also say that its not hatred its jx freedom of action!!! wtf!! u r trying 2 justify a fucking stupid thing!!!! is it so hard to realize that disrespecting something z not a civilized way ov humanity!!! if someone takes off ur pants n ur mothers in a function infront of evryone jx 4 humours sake!! wud u allow it??? m done here dude!! u never gonna get my point!!!! ur mind n heart z sealed!!!! Allah hafiz

    2. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @lean
      leem ask u is called humanity to offend others? to show hatred? to stereotype a community like u did wid blacks n now doing wid us?? to think that others r shit n v r rightful owner ov the world? to throw drones on innocent people?? suppose there z a drone attack on ur house in suspect to terror n ur family z murdered , u survived! and then they realize ooops we r sorry! our assumption was wrong...wat wud u do?? will u say its ok?? hundreds of people are murdered on daily basis! are 3000 american in 9/11 worth more than 3 lac muslims of afghanistan n iraq etc ....i dun want 2 go there!! jx wanna say u r not flawless there r loads ov flaws in u too if we come to reality grounds!! besides understanding ur human fellow, who deserves an apology , u r trying to justify that bloody MF who had shown nothing but jx HATREDDDDD!!!

      1. LeanMan profile image81
        LeanManposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Adnan, having spent many years living in Saudi Arabia; the birth place of your religion just in case you did not know.... I can safely say that the majority of Muslims that are living there are peaceful and pretty much pro west - I think you will find more American fast food stores and other restaurants than many other countries!

        I have never had any problems there and have many Muslims that I count as close friends; none of them spout the crap that you are coming out with. They understand that the people that commit these crimes are not Muslims but out and out terrorists who are actually doing more damage to their faith than help!

        Don't you think that if you promoted peace and everything else rather than trying to force your religion down people's throats with threats that more people would respect you and maybe even want to join you?

        1. pisean282311 profile image58
          pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @leanman exactly...some muslims behave as if they are born with license to get offended while others dont deserve even right to live...what did that ambassador do?...he might not have even seen the movie...what a shame...i would appreciate if muslims behave in mature way and launch civilized protests....

  18. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    @adnan-khan2012 u r using wrong analogy...rape and criticism are two different things and have different impact... nobody raped in this movie...this movie showed muhammad in bad light ...criticism is well accepted thing for any historical figure and this is not first time muhammad is being criticized or shown in poor light...neither it would be for last time...If some one feels offended , court is right place to go....street is wrong place to be in and killing an innocent is wrong time to be in...one must be born as homo erectus to justify such act....

    i saw the movie and felt it in bad taste...now i criticized the movie and sam didnt kill me for that...

    so ur analogy of sister is bit out of place here...rape is something which none would justify...criticism is something which is well accepted is all civilize part of world barring dictatorships like saudi or north korea,china...

    1. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Freedom ov xpression , Go to Hell
      WHEN U ATTACK BLACK PEOPLE THEY CALL IT "RACISM"
      WHEN U ATTACK JEWISH PEOPLE THEY CALL IT "ANTI-SEMETISM"
      WHEN U ATTACK WOMEN THEY CALL IT "GENDER DISCRIMINATION"
      WHEN U ATTACK HOMOSEXUALITY THEY CALL IT "INTOLERANCE"
      WHEN U ATTACK UR COUNTRY THEY CALL IT "TERRORISM"
      WHEN U ATTACK A RELIGIOUS SECT THEY CALL IT "HATE SPEECH"
      BUT WHEN THEY ATTACK THE DIGNITY OV OUR HOLY PROPHET THEY CALL IT "FREEDOM OV XPRESSION" WOW FUCK IT MAN!!!
      XTREMIT OV HYPOCRISY IN WEST!!!!!! EVERYONE HAS RIGHTS THERE BESIDES MUSLIMS!!!! FUCK IT!!! WE VL UNITE INSHAALLAH UNDER THE SAME PROPAGANDA THEY R TRYING TO PREVAIL! 1 BILLION MUSLIMS UNDER THE SAME AGENDA N VL PROVE THAT TRUE RULERS OV THE REGION HAVE CAME BACK! AS THE HISTORY SAYS SO! HAVENT GOT A SINGLE WELL DESERVED APOLOGY 4M THAT STUBBORN NATION LAST MESSAGE ALLAH HAFIZ

      1. LeanMan profile image81
        LeanManposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Adnan..

        Take a chill pill... you need help..

        You read too much and listen to too much rubbish if you think that is how people think if they are not Muslim...

        1. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @lean
          It a kinda matter which z sensitive 4 us! if want to see these pills dn come n discuss random topic!!!!
          jx coz u r brain washed doesnt mean m gonna blame u 4 not understanding my point!!! read my last comments at te end!!! its not ur fault i understand!! lol

          1. LeanMan profile image81
            LeanManposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Brainwashed - I don't watch TV, read the papers, ... I know what I see and hear with my own senses... Have you sat in a mosque in Saudi Arabia and discussed your religion rationally and about the way people are behaving? I have! Believe me I have yet to talk to anyone that supported terrorism or violence! Maybe you should look at your own comments then take a long look in a mirror and consider your own reaction!

            1. 59
              adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If u dat much aware of Islam dn y v dun hav a chat lyk gentlemen!! in private!! we vl see wat v r going 2 find!!!
              btw my brother z in saudia!! n my birthplace z abu dhabi so i hv been there ok!!!
              i have never supportd terrorism! its forbiden in Islam we r ourself a pray 2 terorism!! my point wz jx against d immoral work done by dat moron!!!

      2. twosheds1 profile image61
        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        When you attack black people they do indeed call it racism, but they also call it freedom of speech. I found the movie (I only saw the trailer) in bad taste and a "low blow," but I don't think it should be censored just because people like you are going to have a hissy fit.

  19. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    @adnan i am out of answer or u r out of answer...

    answer following...

    a) was muhammad human being or fiction?

    b) if he was human being which is historical figure every person born in the world can scrutinize and critize him...it is right of every human being because of impact muhammad had...u dont only reserve right of it...every person inherits history ...i hope u get this small thing for once and all , so that u can be at peace and let others be at peace...u can criticize jesus, muhammad, gandhi , martin luther etc etc...moses is doubted by historian but if u think he existed , u cant criticize him too...

    1. 59
      adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @pisean
      lets look at ur freedom ov speech restrictions!
      Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. The freedom is not absolute; the Supreme Court of the United States has recognized several categories of speech that are excluded from the freedom of speech, and it has recognized that governments may enact reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on speech.

      Criticism of the government and advocacy of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy are almost always permitted. There are exceptions to these general protections, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, speech that incites imminent lawless action, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Within these limited areas, other limitations on free speech balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as rights for authors and inventors over their works and discoveries (copyright and patent), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are often made between speech and other acts which may have symbolic significance.
      IT IS PROHIBITED TP USE UNTRUTHS IN D NAME OF DEPICTING HISTORY OR CRITICIZING IN AN UNTRUTHFUL MANNER WHICH IS CALLED SLANDER! TOTALLY PROHIBITED IN CONSTITUTION! OF AMERICA! TRY TO STUDY THE ACTUAL HISTORY OF ISLAM N THE ONE DEPICTED BY THIS MORON U VL FIND THE LIES!! TO HARM MUSLIMS SOOOO ITS PROVED NOW BY UR CONSTITUTION THAT HE HAS DONE A CRIMINAL ACT!!! TS A TYM 4 TE WHOLE NATION 2 APOLOGIZE NOW N SUE THAT BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!! YEAAHHHH!!

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        adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @PISEAN
        TATS WAT UR CONSTITUTION SPEAKS ABT EQUALTY N CRITICISM!! ABT UR PEOPLE!!! U HYPOCRITES
        In 1798, Congress, which contained several of the ratifiers of the First Amendment at the time, adopted the Alien and Sedition Acts. The laws prohibited the publication of "false, scandalous, and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame ... or to bring them ... into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them ... hatred of the good people of the United States, or to stir up sedition within the United States, or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States."

        1. 59
          adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @PISEAN
          OMG LOOK AT THIS!!!
          Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state. In Common Law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]

          In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[4][not verified in body]

          False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."[5] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.[5]

          In some civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a civil wrong (termed a delict in civil-law systems).[6] The United Nations Commission on Human Rights ruled in 2012 that the criminalization of libel violates Freedom of expression and is inconsistent with Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.[7]

          A person who harms another's reputation may be referred to as a "famacide", "defamer", or "slanderer". The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing.
          HE IS A FAMACIDE A DEFAMER , A SLANDERER!! FUK U HATERS!! LOOK WAT UR CONSTITUTION SAYS!! HE HAS COMMITTED A CRIME!!!!!!!

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."

            Doesn't really apply to dead people does it? lol

            1. 59
              adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @mark
              u r  missing the definition of defamation Genious lol!!! read it again!!!! u need treatment lamo!!
              Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state. In Common Law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed......... u r really genious if dun know wat does it means!!! i think its tym 4 u to rest dn!!! u hv gotten old ..... old man! prepare urself 4 d afterlife now hahaha rofl!!!

              1. 59
                adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                look at tiz genious!! groundless criticism z prohibited!!!!! these r civil law jurisdiction rather than false light laws!!! Man u r hilarious ROFL big_smile big_smile big_smile
                trying so hard to prove ur point but invain hahaha big_smile

                In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy

                1. LeanMan profile image81
                  LeanManposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Would be interesting to take all this to a court of law and see if you can disprove anything said about the prophet with real proof!

                  Both sides of the argument just to be fair.

                  Maybe you could start with something basic - provide some concrete proof of his existence.

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @leanman
                    i cn gv u sources to read n study n u vl find d truth!! watch d movie (THE MESSAGE) on Muhammad PBUH u vl know d difference i dun hv to prove or disprove u vl know 4 urself!!!

                    btw Jewish lobby never gonna allow me to get to court coz they own america big_smile

                  2. LeanMan profile image81
                    LeanManposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Adnan.... are you still there.. Proof of his existence please.. Concrete, undeniable proof.. not rumor or supposition. Concrete proof please.

                2. pisean282311 profile image58
                  pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  @adnan if u abuse my family which u have been doing indirectly since 3 hours , i wont kill u...if i get really pissed off , i would sue u...thats the whole difference between uncivilized barbaric people who killed ambassador and others...critizing muhammad the historical figure is right of all 7 billion in the world and none such try to breach that right...historical figures r inherited by all...none have exclusive right on them...

                  1. 59
                    adnan-khan2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @pisean
                    ur point abt freedom ov speech n criticism hv been fukd up!! so accept it now!!!!! dun talk abt dat now!!! its not worth it!!! if u dun accept it now i cnt say anything else but ALAS poor soul!!
                    i already said the ame thing to lean that if i wanted to sue him ur jewish wont let me do it coz they own america u know tat too!!!
                    v jx need an apology stubborns!! as it has been proven dat wat he did z wrong constitutionally moraaly humanly by every means so now if u r man of honour dignity n respect inshort a gentlemen u shud apologize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  2. Xain Shah profile image60
                    Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    @pisean:

                    "adnan if u abuse my family which u have been doing indirectly since 3 hours , i wont kill u...if i get really pissed off , i would sue u"

                    You'd get pissed right? My point exactly. Tell me why would you sue them, when according to yourself, everyone has the freedom of speech? You say its your right to criticize anything, including our Prophet, and that we shouldnt get worked up over it and accept the criticism. Maybe you should accept the abuse of your family as well, it should work both ways right?

                    When you say you would sue adnan, it shows you would be enraged/annoyed/irritated at the disrespect of your family. We, as Muslims, love our prophet far more than you love your family, as I think even you would know very well. Why then, is it wrong for us to feel offended and not for you?

  20. umar.shehzad profile image60
    umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago

    I saw this thread and jumped into this discussion for proving just one point. " everyone is entitled to his own beliefs, whether you think they're stupid or unreasonable, he still has a right to believe in whatever he wants to believe, but he doesn't has a right to mock or insult beliefs of the other people, and vice versa".

    Ironically, the first part of my argument i.e. "everyone is entitled to his own beliefs" is being tossed around by the non-muslims to defend the acts of Terry Jones, the pastor who made this movie.

    But suddenly you guys deviated from the discussion, when you saw a Muslim on this thread, and started blaming me for being a Muslim, and what I get from this whole discussion now, is that most of you non-muslim guys are trying to prove me wrong, backward and stupid.

    And then suddenly I realized that you believe, that I need your approval to be a Muslim, just because 'YOU THINK' that it is a false religion?

    You still don't see the hypocrisy?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

      I see what you mean.

      Now explain why I do not have the right to mock your beliefs?

      1. umar.shehzad profile image60
        umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        quoting out of context is the best way to mislead someone.

        A job well done

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry - it is not possible to quote this book "in context," - the man who wrote it married a 9 year old child - yes? Yet you defend that with vigor.

          Please feel free to add the necessary "context" in that case. You guys are worse than the Christians. LOL They use "scripture to interpret scripture," to say their book does not means what it says. wink

          1. umar.shehzad profile image60
            umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            So context doesn't matter? That's quite a news for me.

            And I see what you are doing mark, you're not here to reason, you've been trying to infuriate me for more than 24 hours now. You have tried by insulting my beliefs, asking me irrational and discursive questions, you even tried to achieve that by comparing the matter of disrespecting holy prophet with the rape of my mother. hence you've used every dirty technique to achieve that.

            But I have a news for you Mark, I will only pray for you and will ask Allah for your guidance.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How have I insulted your beliefs? Please stop lying about me - I have not insulted your beliefs. I asked what you would do if I "disrespected," your prophet.

              I also did not say context did not matter. Please read what I wrote.

              Feel free to pray away - I hope it makes you feel better.

              You have not reasoned with me - I am a reasonable person. Believing the things you believe and claiming that the worst a person could to to offend you is to disrespect a dead prophet is not reasonable behavior.

              If you are going to claim "reason, I suggest using it. wink

            2. ptosis profile image80
              ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You have the good sense to know a troll, but you been feeding the troll for a day.

              That's how I look at the guy who did the movie. He was a troll, he wanted to show how violent the Muslims are - and the protesters walked right into his trap - by rioting against Germany & Britain that had nothing to do with it.

              http://briansilva.com/images/design/docs/Special%20Items%20GDD_image008.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9t1Of45QHd0/StFodsxFtvI/AAAAAAAAItM/aTUW8u3F_8s/s400/Donn%27s+Polar+Bear+Trap+copy+2.JPG

              1. umar.shehzad profile image60
                umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                ptosis, i just knew it from the start of the discussion, but actually mark isn't the one who was reading my posts right? thats why I kept answering even the unrelated questions too.

                and I agree, Muslims did exactly what the producer wanted them to do. but don't relate it to me ptosis, i didn't fell victim to his trap, I didn't get infuriated, I am calm, and i didn't even swear back.

                Btw thanks for agreeing with me that Mark was trolling all the time, not reasoning. :p

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Is that why you refuse to answer my reasonable question?

                  1. ptosis profile image80
                    ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    He legally cannot answer that honestly. And you know it. Because you asked what would he do if you yourself did something - then his response would be directed only to you and not in the  general sense.

                    http://www.cga.ct.gov/ps99/rpt/olr/htm/99-r-0945.htm

                    The First Amendment protects hate speech except in certain circumstances. Certain categories of speech can be regulated, including advocating lawless activity and fighting words. ....It must be directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and likely to do so (Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969)). "Fighting words" are words that "by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" (Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942)).

                    ARS13-2916, Use of an electronic communication to terrify, intimidate, threaten or ....... (Arizona)

        2. Billy Hicks profile image89
          Billy Hicksposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          *psssst  That argument only works if you offer the "proper context".

          Just sayin...

          1. umar.shehzad profile image60
            umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I could only offer the proper context if he had given a reference.

    2. Billy Hicks profile image89
      Billy Hicksposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You're argument is flawed: violence is not an acceptable expression of belief. It's irrelevant who "said" what, or who "made what video"; attacking innocent civilians because of an insult against your religion is not acceptable.

      There are, as I type this, violent protests going on all over the Middle East with people burning buildings, attacking police officers, and advocating further violence. Where is this "vast majority of peaceful Muslims" we hear so much about? Where are the counter protests? Where are the religious leaders coming out to condemn the violence?


      I'm sure you've heard the old saying: "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for enough good men and women to do nothing". Non-Muslims can't fix this problem, you need to "get your house in order".

      1. umar.shehzad profile image60
        umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I was referring to my original post on this thread, you need to see it before judging me for my any other comment: I started off by condemning the act of killing the ambassador and asked other muslims to chose the path of reason, not violence.

        thanks

    3. 0
      Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I'm confused, aren't you trying to prove non-muslims wrong? Is it okay to try to prove us wrong, but not okay for us to try to prove you wrong?

  21. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    OK folks - lets put this in real world perspective.

    The so-called 'christians' who protest at military funerals which most people find abhorrent.

    So far they have not been killed off. But I sure don't agree with the Supreme Court that they should be allowed to protest such HATEFUL things at a person's  funeral!!!!!

    That's America.

    Westboro Baptist Church today vowed to "quadruple" the number of protests at military funerals around the country ....vowed today to defy a new bill signed by President Obama that would require that they be kept at least 300 feet from a soldier’s funeral.


    http://s4.hubimg.com/u/7167739.jpghttp://www.edwindecker.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/JesusHatesWestboroBaptistChurch.jpghttp://madmikesamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/assholes1.jpghttp://s1.hubimg.com/u/7167744_f248.jpghttp://samshaw.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/rainbow11255715861.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/WBC_20051202_sacco-topeka5.jpg/220px-WBC_20051202_sacco-topeka5.jpg

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      see i dont too agree with muhammad being called or depicted in the movie but that doesnot justify killing of ambassdor....right to protest is available to everyone but that right to protest doesnot give right to kill or burn or hurt anyone or anything....

      1. Xain Shah profile image60
        Xain Shahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        pisean: Have you read ANY of my replies? ANY of them? At all? I mean for real man....either you guys are too thick, too blind, or you're just ignoring what we say and spend all yor time writing your own posts, not reading ours in detail. Me, umar and adnan have been repeatedly condemning the killing of the ambassador as well as the violence going on. And yet you state it as a point as if we have been disagreeing with it. Whats the point of telling us

        "see i dont too agree with muhammad being called or depicted in the movie but that doesnot justify killing of ambassdor."

        when we have on MULTIPLE occasions already said that the killing was wrong? Why are you even arguing when we've been saying the same thing, i,e the depiction of the Prophet was wrong and so was the murder of the ambassador.
        Why are you repeating everything we've already said?

        1. Reality Bytes profile image93
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Like comparing apples to poetry.  Not even close to being on the same level. 


          It is almost as if you are justifying murder for a an insult.  You have every right to be insulted as others hold the right to insult!

          1. twosheds1 profile image61
            twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I don't see that, RB. Adnan and Xain are saying that they have a right to be pissed, but not to kill someone over it. They're condemning the killings.

  22. umar.shehzad profile image60
    umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago

    @mark, I am not deviating, I am answering your questions, it's just that I am not giving you the answers, you were expecting. Even many of the atheists here tried to reason with you, but as it turns out, you're the one being unreasonable.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No - you have studiously avoided my question. You are certainly giving me the answers I was expecting - I was hoping for some honesty.

      What would you do - YOU - do if I disrespected your prophet?

      Please answer it now. Thank you.

      1. umar.shehzad profile image60
        umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Will I be offended: yes.   Will I kill you : no

        What I will immediately do depends upon the situation.If you are verbally abusing him and we're face to face, I'd probably swear back at you.

        It'd be just an impulsive reaction that you should expect when you call names at someone who is very dear to him/her.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you for answering. I appreciate that - I honestly wanted to know how far you would go.

          Now - can we talk about how much further you would take it? You seem to have decided that the absolute most offensive thing I can do to you is to disrespect a dead man you have never met. When I continue to insult this man and spit on the ground at the sound of his name - what is your next move?

          And do you think this is reasonable behavior on your part - to verbally abuse some one who has no respect for a dead man he has never met and who's values and morals he despises?

      2. HowardBThiname profile image88
        HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Mark - he answered. Now, let it go. He'd swear at you.

        Let's just move on to something important.

        Umar - I think you've conducted yourself very well.

        1. umar.shehzad profile image60
          umar.shehzadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Though I am glad that you said that, but I didn't say any of the things that I said here just to please anyone or to get your's or anyone else's favor, this is what I truly believe in.

          and thanks for agreeing with me on the point, that it is my right to believe that there is a God and Muhammad (SAWW) is his prophet, even if you think that it isn't true.

          1. HowardBThiname profile image88
            HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it is your right Umar. Although I am an atheist, I defend your right and the rights of all others to express what they believe in.

            We'll never get along if we don't respect each other. Belief's are private and should be honored. We can only punish acts.

        2. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No - he did not answer. He pussy footed around and studiously avoided a direct answer. Now he has answered it. Please mind your own business and try reading the thread instead of jumping in to defend some one who is quite capable of doing so for themselves.

          1. HowardBThiname profile image88
            HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I wasn't defending Umar. I was trying to keep you from making a fool of yourself.

            I see I failed.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Ah - personal attacks. Sorry you did not understand. Odd you also ignored the fact that he did indeed answer me - well after your redundant comments.

              You are real brave though. I am certainly impressed. lol lol

              1. HowardBThiname profile image88
                HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                ...I'm probably a little less impressed with your strong-arm tactics and bullying attitude. I didn't misunderstand anything - nor did anyone who took the time to read your repeated demands that he answer you. Sorry if I didn't jump wholeheartedly on your Muslim-bashing boat.

                Common sense dictates that if a person does not answer your question immediately - there's no need to browbeat them over and over into answering.

                If reminding you that aggressive behavior toward others is foolish counts as a "personal attack," I plead guilty. But it's nowhere near as bad as what you did.

                And, no, I won't "mind my own business" when I see schoolyard bully tactics.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd - he answered me eventually. Not sure how you "strong arm," some one on the Internet - but good for you for protecting him.

                  Very brave of you. Really - I am seriously impressed.

                  Common sense should also tell you how much weight I give to your redundant input.

  23. thirdmillenium profile image72
    thirdmilleniumposted 4 years ago

    I had just a week or two asked in this very forum if Islam is a violent religion. I did not think I would get a very clear answer so fast!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It is just as bad as Christianity that is for sure. Fortunately - we pulled your teeth long ago in the West. You Christians still tear it up in the third world though.

      1. thirdmillenium profile image72
        thirdmilleniumposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Christians, centuries ago, in their zealousness and utter senselessness, were like the Muslims of today. The killed and maimed anyone they thought were not Christians. They deserve the punishment they would surely get when their time comes.

        The difference between then and now is  the knowledge quotient  that has increased manifold and the enlightenment   it has afforded to Christians and Muslims alike. Christians have realized the futility of killing in the name of faith and do not normally indulge in murder and worse but Muslims are less tolerant and are touched to the quick

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No - sorry - you are misinformed. The knowledge is deliberately withheld from certain parts of the world - including Christians who still behave as they did in our past.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat … rge_Tiller
          http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … s_army.htm
          http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/

          They will not be punished when the time comes. How silly of you to believe such garbage. Does it make you feel better to think that?

        2. HowardBThiname profile image88
          HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You're correct, Thirdmillenium, Mark is wrong...again. The RCC no longer controls the state, meaning the Christian church has moved into the 21 century along with the rest of us.
          Small pockets of radicals, most from the far right wing, would still like to control, but they no longer have the means. Add to that the US Constitution guarantees religious freedom, which further deflates doctrinal control.

          Today, most Christians who commit crimes do so for reasons other than their faith. Christianity, as a whole, has focused on charity and comfort for the past few decades.

          Islam will make it - it just takes time. Although I'm an atheist, I'm not afraid to admit that atheists share a role in violence and slaughter. No WWII leader killed as many as did Joseph Stalin, who swore off religion.

          The best thing to do is to take from your religion that which offers you peace and comfort and leave the rest behind.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You may not be entirely right. The RCC does still control Vatican City and that is a Country. They have set themselves with diplomatic immunity for a reason. They need it. I do believe they have a few European countries that they have power in, but if it were up the them they would rule the world as they once did Europe.

            1. HowardBThiname profile image88
              HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              They no longer peel the skin from heretics or have them drawn and quartered. No more Inquisitor or witches being burned at the stake. It's not even in the same ballpark today.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Wow - you noticed that did you? lol

              2. twosheds1 profile image61
                twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Only because they know they can't get away with it now.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Your ignorance is quite astounding. They simply moved into politics and Corporations. lol The RCC is still one of the driving forces in Europe.

            Odd you guys who insist on hiding your real identity know so little. Christianity - as a whole - has focused on expanding it's influence and financial holdings.

            1. HowardBThiname profile image88
              HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Not sure who you're talking about - but you're dead wrong on your conspiracy theories.

              But enjoy them if they keep you occupied.

              ...shrug...

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                LAWL Having just watched the French Church have Scientology made illegal in France and Italy and France both made the Burka illegal at the behest of the RCC, I would hazard a guess you are not very well informed.

                1. HowardBThiname profile image88
                  HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Start showing me state-sponsored torture, burnings and forced conversions - and you'll have a point.

                  Until then - you're just whistling in the wind.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL How far back can I go? You think I am arguing they are still doing that? Please quote me. lol lol

  24. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    It's not about the movie.

    On Sept. 8 Sheik Khaled Abdalla airs part of the the Arabic version onl Al Nas, condemning it harshly. By broadcasting it, he made the video go viral - more people are exposed then if was ignored.

    Why is there no protests at Al Nas for airing it? Did they not do wrong by broadcasting it? The film maker wanted it publicised on 9/11 to create 'heat' - http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworl … all16.html

    Why is Al Nas exempt from rage? Because it's not about the movie. The movie was not the spark. Al nas broadcasting it is the spark. There is no protest at the TV show because Al Nas is exempt from the anger.

    Explain the exemption, anybody, please.

    It seems to me  that the film maker and the rioters are a clusterPhuck of incorrigible bigots.

    Sept. 17: al Qaeda–linked jihadist Ahmed Ashoush issues a fatwa against anyone who took part in the film. The blood of the participants, he says on an Islamist militant website, "should be shed, including the producer, the director, and the actors" adding, "their killing is a duty of every capable Muslim." - http://theweek.com/article/index/233454 … a-timeline

  25. Xain Shah profile image60
    Xain Shahposted 4 years ago

    I have tried my best to answer every question that was directed at me as well as every question that was indirectly left answered by umar and adnan. Ive also tried to add on to their explanations where I thought I could. Despite that, I am just one person arguing with a lot of you people here, most of which are absolutely not interested in anything that I have to say and just enjoy laying the blame on me, Islam and my Prophet. I have tried to answer with logic in every post I could. But my questions dont get answered....I see a very stubborn attitude on the part of most of you posting here except for a few.
    Despite all that, Im not hopeless. Im here to defend my faith, to formally protest against the video and to discuss and reason this issue out with all of you who want to do it. As I said, Im alone here. I cannot keep track of everyone, I cannot answer every question because more posts pop up each day which I feel I have to reply...and therefore my list of "posts to reply to" is increasing. For those of you who would actually like to do a logical debate on the matter, I think we should discuss it outside of this forum. To be honest, I am new here, and I dont find the format very convenient at all.

    It is my recommendation that anyone interested can contact me on skype or maybe facebook. We will discuss it like reasonable people. At the end of the day, perhaps neither of us will change our beliefs, but maybe you will understand our side of the matter a bit more clearly than we have been able to explain it so far. Also, we will get to know each other on a slightly more personal level. That will help us communicate. 
    If you agree to my proposition, kindly post a reply as a comment, with your skype or facebook, whatever is convenient for you. Also, Im interested in knowing your religious beliefs just out of curiosity, so kindly mention that too. Ive seen atheists here..and a christian or two. Im interested in knowing who's who, since as you all know, im a Muslim.

    P.S: If you dont want to publicly reveal your skype/facebook, kindly tell me of a way to privately contact you. Im new here..I dont even know if we can send messages on hubpages or not. smile

    And the last word. I am specifically interested in the following people: ptosis, HowardBThiname, pisean282311, mark knowles, twosheds1, Quilligrapher.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      We understand your side of the matter just fine, thanks. You are attempting to justify violence in retaliation to any form of criticism or ridicule towards Muhammad.

      Yeah, we get that.

  26. Xenonlit profile image60
    Xenonlitposted 4 years ago

    It seems that most of the visible people are all exploiting something about that film. The Egyptian Coptic Christians are exploiting their hatred of the Egyptian majority that do not treat them well.

    The Islamist extremists are exploiting the opportunity to inflame passions and manipulate the media with violent and photogenic protests against America. Al Qaeda is notorious for exploiting the headlines and rarely care about the issues involved.

    American religious extremists are exploiting the film as a way to express hatred for non Christian religions.

    Israel is using America's distraction and vulnerability to influence the American elections and to further their ambitions against Iran and the region.

    The media is making big advertising bucks and enjoying improved viewership.

    Most of us are sick at the assassination of a dedicated and good Ambassador. The ugliness in Libya had nothing to do with that film and everything to do with Islamic extremists or Qaddafi loyalists. Most Libyans appreciate our help in freeing them from despotic rule.

    Most of us are sick of our own dogmatic fanatics who want to burn Korans and protest at dead soldier's funerals. Most in the middle east are sick of violence, irrational hatred of America, oligarchies and war.

    Ironically, it was Egypt's native sons who started all of this and it is Egypt that needs to protect our embassy. If they want our alliance and our billions, they need to protect our people who go there to serve.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Wow - you must be really plugged in to Libya. How many have you spoken to who like the new arrangement? A lot huh?

  27. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    why no protests at Al Nas TV station:  I don't think pixaliaiton or a black squared labeled censored is allowed - is it? Perhaps Al Nas just did an audio with a still from the movie that did not show Muhammad but then I found this:

    Those who prepare pictures would be asked to breathe soul on the Day of Resurrection in these pictures made by them. And then they would not be able to do this, they would be punished ... (Ihham al-Ahham, Sharh ‘Umdat al-Ahham, Vol II, pp 171-2)... Despite condemning the making of pictures as an especially grievous sin, Muhammad does not prescribe earthly punishments for those who do ...The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha, at that time as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty. Fateh-Al-Bari Page 143 Vol.13). .. No pictures, even of animals  ... there is no particular emphasis on forbidding pictures of prophets, or the person of Muhammad in particular. It is clear that Muslims should not make pictures of Muhammad but only as an application of the general prohibition against making pictures of people or animals. - http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/pictures.html

    But I guess it's OK for Islamic Cartoons? Double Standard?
    Muslim Sesame Street : do the "Death to America" thing @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2EisVqKZ4

  28. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news … ntiment-qa

    I think that Obama  was made President with a rigged  US Election back in 2008 used as a sock puppet to show Islamic world that the US is 'reformed' because had a 'muslim' in the white house. 

    What I don't understand is even Muslims are using the same language the media is feeding them that is it the movie when it's really about long standing US policy that is really pissing them off.

    Many Muslims abroad have been disappointed after heightened expectations that US policy in the Middle East would be different under President Obama.

    Let's talk about what is really going on,

    2/3 Americans do not think the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were worth the cost (and) .... have worsened relations with the Muslim world.


    http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/protest20against20film20national20sep202012-jpeg.jpg

    Is freedom of speech a license to obscenity? Yes! and I disagree with above poster. See Lenny Bruce

  29. Lindy's World profile image83
    Lindy's Worldposted 4 years ago

    While I don't normally respond to these types of forums I feel that I need to speak out.  Personally, I believe that we all have a right to believe and worship how we want.  While I may or may not agree with your beliefs or rituals it isn't my place to say anything.  With that being said, we as Americans have been granted the right to say what we think, write what we want to write, worship how we want these are all valuable and precious rights that we need to uphold no matter where we are.  Do I think the film was in poor taste and bad judgement, YES!  Yet, this film was just one group of idiots exercising their rights.  Is it the same as yelling fire in a crowded theater NO!  The individuals that attacked our embassies (in my opinion) already had deep seated anger and hostility inside of them towards the US. And if they hadn't reacted to this movie it probably would of been something else.  Whether, or not these feelings were caused by Islamic beliefs or not does not matter.  The fact remains is that these individuals felt that violence was the answer.  This is never the answer (and yes I know that some of you are thinking what about the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades), and we as humans need to recognize that the acts of a few are not representative of the whole.  This was a tragic and horrible event, but we as Americans shouldn't be apologizing for exercising our rights.

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
      Uninvited Writerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This is all playing into Al Queda's hands. Giving them ammunition to convince people to join their side. That magazine in France who also printed the cartoons is helping Al-Queda. Yes, they have the right but they should be aware of who they are helping and who they are hurting.

  30. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/7177204.jpg

    The Clash of Civilizations:  Uncompromising values on both sides.

    Muhammoud  was not shown in The Onion's extremely pornographic cartoon and "members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were offended by the image upon seeing it then they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day.

    1. twosheds1 profile image61
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/silver_beetle/muslimrage_zps8fa9d1d7.jpg

  31. 0
    Rad Manposted 4 years ago

    Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

    hmmmm.

    1. twosheds1 profile image61
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Couldn't that be taken metaphorically? I see Christian references to "spiritual warfare" all the time.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

        hmmm

        1. twosheds1 profile image61
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          OK, maybe not! big_smile

  32. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    The US now says that the heavily armed men terrorists that fired rocket-propelled grenades used the spontaneous violent protest as a dodge or blind to hide in plain sight looking for any chance or excuse to attack.

    Thousands of Libyans protested against extremist militias during "Rescue Benghazi day".

    http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=203450

    Free speech has exceptions that may vary in different countries. In Germany Nazi symbols are banned which extreme Islamic fundamentalists claim is a unfair double standard.

  33. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    What's worse?

    Militarists fomenting war in Libya during a protest, or the rest of us who were so easily duped by world media into believing that 20 nations protested about not enough restrictions on free speech?

    Notice Saudi Arabia didn't have any protests - and that's where the strictest wahhabi Islam originated!

    http://www.defenddemocracy.org/stuff/uploads/publications/FF_Cover_186.jpg

  34. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    Is this dumb, defiantly teaching about freedom of speech or dangerous?


    UP =University of the Philippines (Catholics mostly)


    Despite the ban imposed by the University and the Movie and Television Review and Classification Board (MTRCB), UP College of Law professor and human rights lawyer Harry Roque pushed through with the showing of the controversial anti-Islam film "Innocence of Muslims" in his Bill of Rights class Friday night.

    Yeah it's not even Friday night to people in Nevada - but remember the world time zones.

    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/27 … islam-film

    1. grand old lady profile image90
      grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It was probably a teaching tool and just for his class. Besides, Muslims in the Philippines are confined largely to Mindanao,  especially the extremists. In our area Muslims are mainly traders, they live nearby and they are friendly and peaceful. Islam in the Philippines is different from Europe in origin because rather than converting through conquest, Muslims were traders in Mindanao, some stayed and married Filipinos and they incorporated practices of a number of Asian beliefs --some Hindu, etc. The extremists came later especially when Iran took control of the US Embassy. That was a big deal all over the world, and many Filipinos in Mindanao formed a separatist band that wanted an Islamic State. Among them, the Abu Sayyaf who kidnapped the Burnham missionaries. But a number of these "extemists" are now sort of more kidnap for ransom gangs and not really great believers of faith.

      1. grand old lady profile image90
        grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I would like to add that a number of Imams in the Philippines have already condemned the violence to the US Embassies. I will look for the link and post it later.

        1. grand old lady profile image90
          grand old ladyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Anti-US- … 25850.html

          Philippines is mentioned in second to last paragraph

      2. ptosis profile image80
        ptosisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you for all this interesting information. Perhaps can write a hub about it if haven't already.

  35. ptosis profile image80
    ptosisposted 4 years ago

    Libyan protesters took over several militia bases. The militiamen fired into the air to try to disperse the protesters, but fled with their weapons after surrounded by waves of people shouting "no to militias". - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19680785

 
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