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What truly motivates non-believers?

  1. Claire Evans profile image90
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    This topic is old, I know, but I'd like to ask it anyway.  Many Christians will ask an atheist, "Why are you here if you don't believe God (should it be a Christian thread)?"  Some will answer, "Because I'm trying to help you see the errors of your ways.  Is this really true because ridiculing a Christian by referring to the invisible sky daddy, for example, will never be constructive and will NEVER make them consider your points or take you seriously.   To truly influence someone, you need to say it in a productive way without resorting to ad hominems.    I know some will resort to ad hominems when provoked unnecessarily, which we shouldn't do, but there are some who come here to solely do that.

    Another explanation from atheists is that they are sick of having religion shoved down their throats which is silly if they come to a religious forum because religious views are expressed here.   On that same note, they say they are sick of religion being incorporated into politics, schools, etc.  How is that relevant to the average Hubpage Christian? They don't make the laws.

    Then you see the same atheists on Hubpages for years going around and around in circles not achieving anything because of their insults. 

    So what truly motivates them? It's insecurity.  They cannot stand the idea that Jesus may truly be the son of God.

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It's a two part thing really, the question of what is the point... I think most people talking on hub-pages don't ultimately have a point to doing so, they aren't trying to convert anyone, often they are just expressing their views and frustrations, I imagine that is what many atheists who spend much time in the religion board are doing. It's just like the politics board etc. it's just people who enjoy a debate and having a forum to talk to not because they are trying to change the world.

      Atheists have their view of the world and some of them enjoy debating it and having a place to talk about it.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You can express views and frustrations but some come here just to insult Christians and don't seek a productive debate.  Why come to these threads over and over again just to insult?

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know of many who do that. Maybe 1? The rest just seem to get frustrated sometimes.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            They are here alright.  It's not just Hubpages I'm talking about.  There's a South African news site that has a public column on various topics and the insults exchanged regarding Christianity. 

            What exactly are the frustrations with Christianity apart from religion in schools, etc?

            1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
              A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Great reply Claire! Only a little trouble on the Christianity section. New channels know how to twist reality to suit their business.

            2. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Personally I get frustrated by: Treatment of gay people, Christianity in politics, religious intolerance, as you mentioned Christianity in schools, resistance to common scientific knowledge like evolution, intrusion in freedoms related to freedom of information (censorship) and abortion and the blocking of stem cell research to name a few.

              I don't at all mind people having their own beliefs I just think religion is a personal choice and that personal choice should not be inflicted on others.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                How Christians behave may not be a reflection of what Jesus preached.  It is all too easy to throw the baby out with the bath water.  People think that just because there is bad in Christianity then Jesus must be corrupt, too. 

                It is unreasonable.  Atheist people are capable of intolerance, treating other people badly, etc.   The intolerance to Christianity is bad.  It is utterly and truly inexcusable to ban praying silently:

                "Taking extra precautions for Wednesday's See You At The Pole day prayer, school officials in Sumner County, Tenn., forbade teachers and administrators from bowing their heads to pray while students were watching.

                The decision was made after a principal at Westmoreland Middle School previously witnessed football coaches at the school bowing their heads during a post-game prayer in the end zone."

                Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/teach … 7PuVFEk.99

                You can get arrested for holding a Bible study at one's own home in the United States:

                "Bible study leader Michael Salman is sitting in jail today after his home was raided earlier this week by more than a dozen Phoenix, Ariz. police officers and city officials. His offense? The city says people aren’t allowed to hold private Bible studies on their own property."

                http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11/ar … ies-logic/

                Why can't we practise our Christianity in private?

                I could care less whether people believe in evolution or not.  Gay people mustn't be condemned.  That's between them and God.  I'm not necessarily opposed to abortion.  However, it can be abused.  It's naive to be opposed to stem cell research. 

                I agree...personal choices should not impose itself on others.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't think you got the actual message of the links provided.  Not the one the writer wants you to see, but the one behind.

                  School officials, performing their assigned duties as officials overseeing a student event, are not allowed to promote any religion.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with public prayer, it has everything to do with government promotion of Christianity (or any other religion, although the one in the article was Christianity).  This is completely in line with our constitution and no reasoning person, Christian or otherwise, wants govt. promoting or endorsing any religion not of their own.

                  The second link has nothing to do with holding a bible study in a private home.  I seem to remember this one from a while back (or another similar one) and the problem is violation of city zoning ordinances, parking facilities, building egress laws and permissable occupancy levels.  The man violated all of these, on a consistent basis, and was fined for it.  You want a private bible study in your home, fine.  Just keep it of a reasonable size for a residential home, not a church building.

                  So what's wrong with govt. actions in either case?  Do Christians require a "bye" from the laws everyone else obeys?  Can they not keep their religion a private matter, without pushing it onto the public at large?  Are they special in that they can violate our constitution in order to promote the religion to children?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm sorry, but they were not praying out aloud.   How is praying going to influence the game?  What if they were praying that the game would be safe and successful?  I bet you if they were meditating, there would be no problem.



                    There seems to be numerous contradictions in this case.  First he was arrested because he had a church where it was not zoned as one.  Then the reason is because the authorities  are worried how people would exit the property and they would possibly block fire hydrants. 

                    What's disturbing is that Bible studies aren't allowed in this guy's living room which is blatant faith discrimination.  The reason? He was violating construction codes? What business is there what they do inside of their property if it is legal?  Then this Salman was having a Good Friday gathering eating a meal when the fire department threatened to call the police.   Is having twenty persons in a backyard illegal?

                    Salman's case is not unique.  Bible Studies have been banned in other parts of the USA.  Here is another example in California where private Bible studies are not allowed to conducted at home.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjJrmWbHM2I



                    "In some recent examples, a ruling in 2010 had banned a home church meeting of seven people in Gilbert, Arizona, but it was later dismissed as being unconstitutional. In 2011, the city of San Juan Capistrano slapped Chuck and Stephanie Fromm with two $300 fines for not having a permit to pray in their home with guests. This was overturned."

                    Luckily reason prevailed here.

            3. Uninvited Writer profile image82
              Uninvited Writerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              It is mainly when religious beliefs are demanded in public policy such as not allowing gays to marry that annoys me. I personally don't care what another person believes, if it makes them happier so be it.

              Believe me I have seen people insulted by Christians on here and elsewhere just because they don't follow the same religion or don't believe at all.

              I just don't believe and it has nothing to do with fear or lack of confidence.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, a Christian may lose their temper and insult another but they are human.  As long as they recognize the errors of their ways, it's okay.  When they come here purposely to insult non-believers then that means they are insecure in their own faith.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd - you started a thread to purposely insult non-believers. Are you having second thoughts about your beliefs?

    2. A Troubled Troll profile image61
      A Troubled Trollposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This topic is old, I know, but I'd like to ask it anyway.  Many Atheist will ask a christian, "Why are you here if you do believe God (should it be an Atheist thread)?"  Some will answer, "Because I'm trying to help you see the errors of your ways.  Is this really true because ridiculing an Atheist by referring to the absence of belief in invisible sky daddy, for example, will never be constructive and will NEVER make them consider your points or take you seriously.   To truly influence someone, you need to say it in a productive way without resorting to ad hominems.    I know some will resort to ad hominems when provoked unnecessarily, which we shouldn't do, but there are some who come here to solely do that.

      Another explanation from christians is that they are sick of having science shoved down their throats which is silly if they come to a atheist forum because atheist views are expressed here.   On that same note, they say they are sick of science being incorporated into politics, schools, etc.  How is that relevant to the average Hubpage Atheist? They don't make the laws.
      They also want to take all Atheists to heaven, and those who disagree to hell.

      Then you see the same christians on Hubpages for years going around and around in circles not achieving anything because of their insults. 

      So what truly motivates them? It's insecurity.  They cannot stand the idea that there may be no invisible sky daddy after all. lol

      1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
        A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Great answer, bro lol

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The questions in this thread can be addressed to Christians, too, you know.  It is NOT constructive for a Christian to come here and ridicule atheists to try and bully them into conversion.  That is not Christ-like and will not influence an atheist positively. 




        Science shoved down their throats? Christians are threatened by science?  So they don't like the thought of the law of gravity?  Science in politics? That's new to me. 



        Yep.



        Yep.  Insecurity, too.  You know what your comment proves? Atheists and Christians are so alike! LMAO!

    3. Rana M Faisal profile image60
      Rana M Faisalposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I do not consider Christianity being the true religion but i believe in God. for example if a mobile phone is being created by nokia than it cannot the son of nokia and on the other hand nokia is the creator of that mobile so it defines the origin of the mobile similarly how can a person justify that this universe and the galaxies are without a creator. an atheist will say nature created it than one has to think what is nature. If nokia has programmed a phone to work in a certain way that will become the nature of the phone in this way we can understand that God has created everything with a definite purpose and everything to abide by the rule and cannot exceeds whatever it has been programmed to do.

    4. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Truth and honesty motivate non-believers. For example, we find these kind of posts from believers who know full well they are not offering truth or honesty, but will make those type of statements deliberately and will continue to state them no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented to them.

      1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
        A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Right then! Tell us what you know about, life, universe, and how humans should live their life!  lol

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          By all logical interpretation even the average modern person would have a better ethical and moral base (we no longer stone people to death for not being virgins on their wedding night) and a MUCH better understanding of how the universe works (thanks to scientific knowledge) than people did 5 thousand years ago when the bible was written...

          So the point seems rather self defeating.

          1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
            A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            In other words, you just can't answer those questions.

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If it was an actual question sure, we are talking about people that would not know the earth is round or how combustion works or what the sun is (a self sustaining nuclear fusion reaction) and I rather like an ethical system called utilitarianism which allows me to figure out what is right no matter the circumstance and without even stoning people to death!


              "The greatest good for the greatest number is the correct course"
              "Treat as you would wish to be treated"

              and BAM! I know more about the universe and have a better ethical system in one little comment than the creators of the bible, think what we could do in a whole book tongue

              1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
                A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Go on! Save the world, buddy! You have such scientific knowledge that you can even modify the living conditions of all of humanity lol

                1. Josak profile image61
                  Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh most people know this stuff, I took a bachelor of science but it's a comparison to ancient man so it's hardly a stiff competition many many people figured this stuff out long before I was around, brilliant minds, often persecuted by the church.

                  1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
                    A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    What happened? Not interested to stand for the next big election?  lol

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          For one, humans probably shouldn't go around creating accounts on forums that are meant to stalk other users. Perhaps, they should seek professional help, instead.

          1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
            A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Right after they accuse people for being somebody else lol

        3. Rana M Faisal profile image60
          Rana M Faisalposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          A troubled women what is your questions i will try to answer them? ask

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Wait a second...you think I know that I'm being untruthful? Why would I spend my life lying about something to delude people? What is it in for me to do that? You have no evidence against Jesus being the son of God just like I cannot provide you with empirical facts that He is. 

        No, you will never consider you are wrong.  Never.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Absolutely, when believers reject or deny facts that are placed right in front of them, that is knowingly being untruthful.



          Good question, you tell me? It is rampant here and everywhere with the vast majority of believers.



          Again, another good question, you tell me?



          Exactly, but you will preclude truth and honesty in order to tell us He exists and is the son of God.



          There you go again. smile

          1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
            A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Very well managed! lol

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            What facts do I deny? You are just assuming I'm here lying.  You don't know that I'm lying.   There is nothing in it for me to lie.  That's just said.  Maybe some people do that but I think there are better things to do in life but to purposely mislead people.

            A Troubled man:There you go again. smile

            Huh?

    5. nightwork4 profile image61
      nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      what motivates me is that i would love to see christians lose their faith in some god and become people who live by common sense instead of what some book says. it isn't just christians that get bothered but christians tend to act like only their religion is real. personally, i would love to find out that jesus and god are real because it would explain why this world is how it is. but lets be honest. very few so-called christians practice what is preached but they have no problem trying to make others look bad. due to christians, gays are having a hard time being allowed to get married, being accepted as equals etc. due to christians, there have been attrocities committed that are unlike anything else. due to christians, priests get a free ride even after they molest kids. due to christians, laws are passed that infringe on our freedom.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Common sense? You also assume that all Christians live by the Bible and don't have a personal relationship with God.  If Christianity makes one fulfilled and they don't impose it on anyone, what is the problem? If a Muslim is happy and they don't harm anyone then I don't go out of my way to try and make them lose their faith.   

        Christians behaving badly has no bearing on whether Jesus exists or not.  That is common sense reasoning.   Why can't people separate Jesus from corrupt Christians and Christianity?

    6. janesix profile image59
      janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Claire, I really don't think they're trying to influence people when they spout rudeness like that. I think they are just trying to be mean.

      Seriously.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, those people are mean but it is, in my opinion, an indication of insecurity.  That goes for Christians, too.  If they try and bully atheists into Christianity by threats of hell, etc, they are insecure.

    7. profile image0
      Peelander Gallyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I seek productive debate instead of just insulting Christians. On all sides there are trolls and there are those who are looking to have a conversation. Plus, you never know if on a particular day someone was harassed, had an argument or is continuing a personal debate with someone in particular.

      People who try to bring others down are no doubt insecure, but deciding that atheists argue with you because they're so afraid of how right you are kind of highlights one of the main reasons why they do it. It's condescending, presumptuous and offensive to assume that an atheist or non-theist is unhappy or incomplete because they don't believe what you do.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, there are Christians like that, too.  I have some people in mind when I wrote this and they come specifically to scorn you for having an "invisible sky daddy". 

        Urgh, sometimes I have a problem not being specific enough in my threads.   I was thinking of atheists who just come to insult Christians that are insecure and those who say why they despise Christianity because of the behavior of others yet refuse to separate Jesus from Christians. 

        I could be considered condescending when I say Christians are insecure when they just come to insult atheists and not seek a debate.  In a nutshell, someone who just gives ad hominems are insecure, atheists or not.

    8. twosheds1 profile image61
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What motivates me is not insecurity in the slightest. Like others, I hope that I will make believers question some of the tenets of their beliefs, and look at them a little more critically. I'm not so naive to think I will actually change any minds, but if I can at least plant a seed of doubt, then I would consider that a victory.

      Also, I like a spirited debate, whether about politics, religion, or if the Beatles or the Stones were the better band (Stones). I also like to point out when people use logical fallacies, and those who argue in favor of religious beliefs frequently do so, in my experience. Ad hominen attacks are logical fallacies.

      1. A Troubled Nurse profile image61
        A Troubled Nurseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "Ad hominen attacks are logical fallacies."


        So now I have seen it all lol

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy, more precisely an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

          yes it's wikipedia plenty of other sources for the same thing if you like, it's a red herring fallacy ie. a fallacy attacking something other than the argument.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Great.  I love your response.

      3. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image85
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Beatles

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Oh man you've done it now! tongue

    9. That Grrl profile image77
      That Grrlposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Are they non-believers or are they atheists? Which is it?

      Your conclusion is kind of flawed. Not everything is based on fear or insecurity.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I elaborated on the thread title that I was referring to atheists.

        The insecure atheists I'm thinking about is what I described not the atheist who goes on with his life not actually caring if Jesus is the son of God or not.   You will get some who come onto these forums out of interest sake and because they like debating but there are others who come here to purposely insult Christians with nothing constructive to say.   I've definitely come across atheists who I believe don't feel threatened in the least. 

        I did make a generalization in the title but I hope my elaboration on the title cleared up ambiguity, which it really did not, unfortunately.   We often tend to generalize.  If I recall correctly, someone here said that Christians don't have morals.  That's not true.

    10. assignmentswiz profile image61
      assignmentswizposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Just get a disbeliever in the midst of a storm like Sandy a few hundred kilometers into the ocean and note what would be their first word, OOOH MY GOOOD!!

      1. twosheds1 profile image61
        twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        And what would that prove? What if he said "Jesus Effing Christ?" Facing the possibility of one's own death doesn't all of a sudden make you a believer.

        1. assignmentswiz profile image61
          assignmentswizposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The point is that there must be some level of stupidity involved for one to be an atheist.  Just the imagination that everything in the universe is a result of some accident is absurd.  Also, for me personally, believing that life is about eating, mating, associating, marrying, traveling and all the other things we do in life is over when we die, is unacceptable. That all the fuss about life ends with death!! That will make life itself pointless. Can you imagine yourself at a place where u r blank, unconscious, non existent!!  as one philosopher puts it: It is amazing that the human brain which itself is a marvel of engineering, is arguing about the idea that there is someone who created it!

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Ah - not believing garbage is stupid?

            Sorry you don't understand. It must be very frustrating for you to discover there is no need for a Majikal Super Being. Life does end with death. lol

            Not sure who said this but - You did not exist for billions of years before you were born. Did it hurt?

            1. assignmentswiz profile image61
              assignmentswizposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You are very funny. You sound like a science kind of guy, factual guy...yet you prefer the idea that life is accidental. what an irony!!!

          2. Uninvited Writer profile image82
            Uninvited Writerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Why attack those who disagree with you? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

            Just because you can't understand other's motivations that does not make anyone stupid. Many people live very fulfilling lives but don't believe in God. Life is what you make it.

            It seems some believers are afraid...

          3. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I think you have made an interesting point although I'd say they are in denial rather than being stupid.   Intelligent design is just obvious.  Now what higher power was responsible for that is up to debate.  I think agnostics are more free-thinking and honest.

        2. Thomas Swan profile image93
          Thomas Swanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Facing one's death can make you a believer actually. There are experiments that show mortality saliency can lead to increased religious belief. You're right that it doesn't "automatically" do it though smile

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        LAWL

        What makes you think disbelievers are as scared as you guys?

        How often u been in a storm like Sandy with some disbelievers?

    11. ro-jo-yo profile image86
      ro-jo-yoposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Atheist believe that they need nothing, that they do not need God, they do not believe in a God.
      Revelation 3:17 KJV
      Because thou sayest , I am rich, and increased with goods , and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched['b], and [b]miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

      Because they do not believe in an Almighty, they do not see how they look to others because they are blinded by their own beliefs.

    12. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Referring to God as a sky daddy is hardly ridiculing the believer. Is it insulting the belief itself? YUP. But insulting the belief and insulting the believer are not the same thing. Plenty of sane people believe absolutely insane things, Isaac Newton invented Calculus and helped shape our scientific understanding of the world better than almost anyone else in history, yet he clung to a belief in Alchemy as well.

      I think ridicule can be effective, though it isn't likely as effective as an old fashioned straight-forward approach to debating. What's important is, again, that the thing being ridiculed isn't the believer BUT the beliefs themselves. Claiming that a child is stupid for still believing in Santa Claus won't overturn their belief, but if you poke fun at the idea of Santa, at the beliefs associated with him, you might get your point across EVEN if the initial reaction of the believer is a KNEE JERK negative reaction. (like the one someone might have about me using Santa Claus as an analogy for God a few sentences ago).

      Now there are also some atheists who are just trolls, there are trolls in any community especially here on the internet.

    13. A Thousand Words profile image81
      A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Hmmm, here are a few reasons:
      1) Entertainment/fun/humor. Some people love calling other people out on their BS(or what they consider to be BS), no matter what that BS might be, whether it's a matter religious or nonreligious.

      2) Passion. The same reason Christians find themselves in forums sharing the "truth" with people they believe are lost. There are some Atheists who call themselves Evangelists. That makes me chuckle.

      3) Anger. They could have formerly been Christian or had many bad run ins with Christians or outraged at certain ideas in Christianity (kind of tied in with Passion and BS) and are just pissed and like angry children want to defy anything by anyone who says anything related to it that they find to be absurd.

      4) Trollin'. Some people just enjoy chaos.

      5) Some enjoy the conversation and enjoy learning more about what other people believe and why.

      6) I'm sure there are more reasons, just can't think of them.

    14. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Motives? Hmmm, very good question. I've explained my own motives many times, but my motives are not the same as others. I can tell you fear is not one of them. The insults to your believes come from the frustrations of trying to show you how badly many have been indoctrinated. It's much like trying to convince an adult that there is no Santa or tooth fairy. That very same level of frustration applies as it applies here when you say our motives are fear. There is no fear from the wrath of a God that doesn't exist just as there is no fear of not getting presents from Santa.

    15. Starlight PK profile image60
      Starlight PKposted 3 weeks ago in reply to this

      Fear.

  2. aguasilver profile image86
    aguasilverposted 4 years ago

    Ultimately the motivation must be fear, which I understand, for any atheist must spend some time wondering whether they are in fact wrong, and whether that error may cost them dearly.

    If they had no fear, then they would not bother wasting time on religious forums.

    Certainly for the 42 years before I came to faith, I had no interest or concern with religionists, as until I met with Christ, I thought them weird, but of no consequence to me.

    And believers in Christ are of no consequence to atheists, we represent no threat, which is the irony, because it is the religionists who do not come to these forums that seek to gain political power (which does affect people) and as such, the atheists words are wasted anyway.

    Those they address them to are not concerned, those they need to reach do not see them, an exercise in futility.

    1. Claire Evans profile image90
      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I agree.  It's a tragedy that they think, should Christ be the son of God, that He wants to toss them into a lake of fire when He died for us to that we will avoid hell should we truly repent.  He is so full of love yet this is not the impression they get or don't want to believe.   Christians have a lot to do with that.  Many go around threatening atheists with hell.   It is quite understandable that the Old Testament makes God look like a monster.

      When I try and correct this thinking, they aren't interested.  In other words, they would rather stick with their non-belief that consider the possibility that Jesus loves us.

      1. aguasilver profile image86
        aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Deleted

        1. pisean282311 profile image58
          pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @agua i have read many scriptures ...thats why i can see human hand in those scriptures...it is better to be human being worrying about serving other humans and leaving planet in better way than worrying for countless gods which kept evolving throughout human journey....i dont care about god much and dont think god deserves to be cared or thought about ...but obviously i am no one to stop others in believing ...that is their right...

      2. getitrite profile image80
        getitriteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Your cause and effect logic is completely flawed by your inability to see that your religious beliefs are nonsensical.  We KNOW that there is no such thing as a savior, written about in some ancient book, by dubious authors.  We KNOW that hell is imaginary.  There is no fear of your ridiculous claims being true.  Your archaic beliefs are firmly rejected, and dismissed as delusion.  Get over it.

        1. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          So you guys work at trying to get the other 97.7% of the world who believe in a God to come join you in your disbelief?

          I'm over it, nice to see you here! Enjoy!! smile

          1. Josak profile image61
            Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Slightly off with your numbers 19% of the world population has no religious belief and about another 15% have some beliefs with no gods and Hinduism which has 15% of the worlds population believes in gods rather than a God so we are talking about 3.6 billion with Islam Christianity and Judaism meaning about 50% of the worlds population believes in "God". A large portion of which have a different faith to yourself.

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The atheist sites say 2.3%, but there are a number 11.9% who are agnostic, which does not preclude a god, either way, the vast majority of the world believe in a god of some sort, I was not referring to those who believe in a different god than mine, merely in those who believe in no god at all. smile

            2. pisean282311 profile image58
              pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @josak....as dalai lama puts there is not one god but 7 billion interpretations of god!!!!!!!!....islam , christianity and judaism dont believe in god , they have very different definitions of god...also hinduism doesnot believe in gods...they believe in many manifestations of one god...in end they believe source is one...so we can say most including agnostics believe there is some super natural power ...abrhamic religions being most closed minded in world fight over whether it is yaweh or christ or allah...waste of time and energy...we would have been at much better position without this fight...

              1. Thomas Swan profile image93
                Thomas Swanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Exactly, if there are a thousand different conceptions of God, what does this prove other than man's proclivity for inventing creators? If 999 religions have to be wrong, why should the one that remains be right?

        2. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          People like you is EXACTLY who inspired me to write this topic.  What have you achieved by writing that comment? Am I seriously going to consider that you may be right by your being so condescending?  How productive have you been? You have the same sort of comments every time you come to these threads.   Why do you waste your time?

          Insecurity.

          1. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Why do Christians get so ANGRY when someone states his views, but want to have carte blanche status when stating their LIES?  I have the same sort of comments, because you keep proposing the same circular nonsense.  Can't you see it is you posting the same garbage, again, and again and again.  In my opinion, your beliefs are just a crutch for the mentally and emotionally unstable...those unable to accept the world as we really know so far.  How psychologically disturbing.

               

            Then stop starting ridiculous threads like this one, and wasting your time.



            Delusion is a terrible thing.

            1. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You know, hey? Well....you'll see someone day.  I want to know how you know as a fact hell isn't true? Why are you so angry?  There are few atheists who are this angry. 





              I'm I angry? Christians get insecure when they lash out and don't address any argument that is inconvenient to them.  They like dodging.  You are also assuming Christians are lying.  Look, I am never going to win a argument when it comes to the Holy Spirit but that is not my aim.  I hope to make others thing and I will admit others here make me think.  The reason why I start these threads is hear all sides of the stories and I get a lot of insight to how atheists think. 

              The world is not what you think it is.  It's far from it.  What we see on the surface is often a facade.  When people like me put it out to be true, man put their heads in the sand saying it is not true despite the evidence.


                 



              I'm asking you why are you wasting your time? I've already stated why I'm here and it must be constructive if I can learn from other people and people can entertain my ideas.  No one is going to seriously ponder yours because insults don't have a constructive purpose.





              I agree.   You might want to start learning about the real world.

            2. Chalilah profile image61
              Chalilahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well, Getitrite, I've actually often experienced quite the opposite; It is usually atheists and agnostics that attack me when they found out my beliefs.  I am not the only one to experience this.  Many other Christians do as well.  We are attacked with words and phrases like "ignorant", "stupid", "psychologically unstable", etc., when we express our views.  It is truly ironic that a lot of atheists claim that we are intolerant when neither I or any of my associates have called anyone out of their names or caused any issues simply because someone else didn't believe in God.  I would venture to say that you, personally, and many others like you are intolerant of us.   I won't try to convince you of anything because it is clear that your mind is, as the Bible says, reprobate on the subject.  I believe that 1 Corinthians 2:14 puts it best: "
              The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

              Again, I am going to hub on this.

    2. twosheds1 profile image61
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I think the same could be said of you, Aqua. If you don't doubt your belief, why do you waste your time here?

      On the off chance that you're right, I would hope that your god would be a fair-minded one, and appreciate honest, thoughtful inquiry, rather than blind obedience, and give non-believers the chance to mend their ways. Of course, your holy books say nothing of the kind. But I often wonder, what if you're wrong, and after death we find out the Hindus were right? Or the Vikings? Or the Greeks?

  3. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    holistic approach rather than approach from prism of mere humans....scope of god is still there in such approach but religion falls far short ...

  4. tussin profile image61
    tussinposted 4 years ago

    Claire, how do you always fail to realize that there are other religions besides Christianity? I don't want to blow your mind or anything, but it is possible to be neither an atheist nor a Christian.   So what exactly is your question?  Do you want to know what motivates non-believers in Christianity, or non-believers in religion in general?

    Carry on with the insanity. Geez Louise.

    1. Claire Evans profile image90
      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I am fully aware there are other religions but Christianity is the religion atheists express the most derision for.  It is my religion so it is my area of interest. 


      I elaborated on the title of this thread.  Go back and read it.

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I think atheists just rail against the religion they feel the impacts of most Atheists in the western world generally run into Christianity I am sure there are atheists in Muslim countries frustrated by Islam etc.

        1. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Christianity does not impose on any South African.  It is not involved in politics, etc, but the hatred some atheists have for Christians there is horrific.

          1. Josak profile image61
            Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            South Africa is impacted by Christianity (does it have gay marriage?) but also in South Africa it's a cultural issue I believe, there were faiths and cultures there forcefully exterminated, broken and replaced by Christianity by the English unsurprising some resent that.

            1. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, gay marriages are legal in this country.  Apartheid is long gone but no black South African person I know of blames Christianity for apartheid.   White South Aricans are hateful towards Christianity although it is not forced down their throats in politics, schools, etc.  It's a secular country.  It's important to note that this hatred for Christianity is through this news online site.  It cannot represent the whole of the country.

  5. Tinsky profile image92
    Tinskyposted 4 years ago

    I'm an Atheist and I don't usually come to these forums for Hubpages because of these types of threads which are generally created to ridicule our disbelief in any religion including the tooth fairy and Thor and for most atheists (I can't speak for all) the support for science and real factual evidence about our origins.  However, this thread DID came up in my feed.  I didn't ask it to come up in my feed. I followed it because it only showed the start of your post which I at first thought was a sincere question, until I read the rest of your dishonest discourse.

    So long as your belief does not interfere with my non-belief, I have in the past let things slide and kept my non-beliefs to myself. But your belief DID just interfere in my life when it came up on my feed and you seem to have taken express joy in somehow "knowing" what you believe is the superior answer for your own question when you most likely have no idea what Atheists think at all.  I would suggest watching some Hitchens debates on YouTube to get a real insight into our thoughts.

    Insecurity or fear does not make me post this reply. I am not afraid of dying.  When I do, my body will one day rot and be eaten by maggots and worms and ants, just like your's will be one day unless you  prefer to be burnt to a crisp at death and turned into ash to stand in an urn on a shelf somewhere.  I intend for my body to give back to the Earth what it gave me, life.

    One day my atoms will be dispersed into many other things. My DNA some of which continues through my daughter will hopefully go on to evolve with the human race. And when it does, I long for this world to be a world that is united, not just in human spirit, but also through the pursuit of honest knowledge gained through scientific evidence without any interference from religion.  Call me a utopian, but I hope that in our far future, the human race will have woken up to the archaic design of religious beliefs and thrown them aside.  I hope that we have given up our greed to rape the earth of its precious environment and are finally looking after our home and not destroying it through stubborn ignorance and myths and lies that were created by men  (most likely christianity started with Constantine) who wanted power and riches to control the masses.

    I am not afraid of Living either, that's because I don't fear death.  When I die, I don't fear meeting a god, some guy called Jesus or the invisible holy ghost that apparently watches you 24 hours a day. I've rejected all three. Even if they did exist and I found myself living in some fairy land instead of this marvellous Universe we are only just beginning to explore and understand, I wouldn't want to be under the dominion of your god because it is in no way a loving or fair god..  It discriminates, creates wars and differences in our human species, which stop us from uniting as one people.  Do you really want to go to a heaven knowing that thousands of people, perhaps your best friends or even family are rotting in "hell" because they didn't believe in the same god as you?  What sort of sick individual would take delight in the pain of others?  Your God does, your religion encourages and teaches this "fear" of going to hell to young children.  This is a form of abuse, which I suffered from mentally as a child.

    So, its not fear or insecurity that brought me here but a thread to this discussion which came up in my  feed, to which I had no say in and after reading your entire post, I will now ask you with a passionate plea for You and others like you, to stop your "unchristian" actions of baiting Atheists and give us some real discussion topics to debate. Perhaps if you take a real good look at yourself, your own actions and the religion you hold so close to yourself, you will see that it is not as righteous as you believe it be. It is time to drop these petty fictional beliefs in religion that push us apart and separate us as a human species and instead unite to solve more important and relevant issues.

    1. Astralrose profile image84
      Astralroseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with Tinsky here! I have met a lot of atheists online and reading their thoughts on beliefs on god/s don't insult believers because when you insult you are calling someone which he/she is not or describing something that isn't so when an atheist call god/s as murderer, jealous and proud of it, unjust, etc it cannot be an insult because the scriptures themselves show these characteristics of their god/s. All these believers need to do is to evaluate that ONLY book they're saying as the infallible Words of God.
      It isn't fear that drives atheists to not to believe. It's the ridiculousness and flaws/errors of the beliefs that made them reject the beliefs of god/s.
      It's not insecurity that drives me to be on this thread. I was once a Christian turned atheist because my reason couldn't take that what believers claim as truth needs to be debated. If their claims are truth then we shouldn't be discussing this topic anymore...just like we are no longer debating whether or not the earth is flat because it's not!
      It's the religious who instill fear to people's minds especially to children. I should do good so that I'll be admitted to heaven and if I am not I will burn in hell...phew! So much nonsense-why not just say do good because it's good and proper! Period!

    2. Claire Evans profile image90
      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Tinsky: I'm an Atheist and I don't usually come to these forums for Hubpages because of these types of threads which are generally created to ridicule our disbelief in any religion including the tooth fairy and Thor and for most atheists (I can't speak for all) the support for science and real factual evidence about our origins.  However, this thread DID came up in my feed.  I didn't ask it to come up in my feed. I followed it because it only showed the start of your post which I at first thought was a sincere question, until I read the rest of your dishonest discourse.

      Actually Christians and other theists are asked why they don't believe in Thor.  Science can never disprove the existence of God for God is a generic name.  The universe could be God, according to Pantheists. 

      I'm not sure what was so dishonest about my discourse?

      So long as your belief does not interfere with my non-belief, I have in the past let things slide and kept my non-beliefs to myself. But your belief DID just interfere in my life when it came up on my feed and you seem to have taken express joy in somehow "knowing" what you believe is the superior answer for your own question when you most likely have no idea what Atheists think at all.  I would suggest watching some Hitchens debates on YouTube to get a real insight into our thoughts.

      Yes, so my thread did come up in your feed.  Where else was I supposed to direct this thread to? The Christian thread when my question is posed for atheists? I'm sorry I caused inconvenience in your life. I do not profess to know what goes in the mind of all atheists.  I do know when an atheist comes to these threads with the sole purpose of insulting Christians it indicates insecurity.  Likewise, if a Christian does the same they are insecure in their own religion.

      Insecurity or fear does not make me post this reply. I am not afraid of dying.  When I do, my body will one day rot and be eaten by maggots and worms and ants, just like your's will be one day unless you  prefer to be burnt to a crisp at death and turned into ash to stand in an urn on a shelf somewhere.  I intend for my body to give back to the Earth what it gave me, life.

      I think I'll be cremated.  There's no space in Cape Town anymore for cemeteries. 


      One day my atoms will be dispersed into many other things. My DNA some of which continues through my daughter will hopefully go on to evolve with the human race. And when it does, I long for this world to be a world that is united, not just in human spirit, but also through the pursuit of honest knowledge gained through scientific evidence without any interference from religion.  Call me a utopian, but I hope that in our far future, the human race will have woken up to the archaic design of religious beliefs and thrown them aside.  I hope that we have given up our greed to rape the earth of its precious environment and are finally looking after our home and not destroying it through stubborn ignorance and myths and lies that were created by men  (most likely christianity started with Constantine) who wanted power and riches to control the masses.

      Hell on earth is coming.  Those in power have no interest in peace and love, etc.  They just want to destroy.   And many of them come under the guise of loving nature, etc, when they are actually Satanists.  This is not the case with you.  I commend your care for the world but there are many evil people who hide behind good to perpetrate their own agenda. 

      It is not the Gospels that makes Christianity dangerous.  It is the exploitation of Christianity that causes suffering.  How can those who kill in the name of Christianity be doing Jesus' will when He said those who live by the sword, die by the sword. 

      Evil people will exploit atheism as well.  Influential Freemason and founder of the Klu Klux Klan, Albert Pike, wrote a summary of the three world wars:

      "The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion. We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

      http://rense.com/general80/pike.htm

      Evil infiltrating the Christian Church is a very old agenda.  It was used to gain power and to make people disillusioned with the Christian religion.  The goal is to "unleash" atheists to destroy Christianity.  That is what they want.  The son of God is an impediment to the New World Order.  He needs to go.  Everyone must reject Him.   Christianity will be destroyed as well as atheism because the goal is for atheism to worship Lucifer.  Well, if they don't, they die.  No one can enter the New World Order unless they are a Luciferian.




      I am not afraid of Living either, that's because I don't fear death.  When I die, I don't fear meeting a god, some guy called Jesus or the invisible holy ghost that apparently watches you 24 hours a day. I've rejected all three. Even if they did exist and I found myself living in some fairy land instead of this marvellous Universe we are only just beginning to explore and understand, I wouldn't want to be under the dominion of your god because it is in no way a loving or fair god..  It discriminates, creates wars and differences in our human species, which stop us from uniting as one people.  Do you really want to go to a heaven knowing that thousands of people, perhaps your best friends or even family are rotting in "hell" because they didn't believe in the same god as you?  What sort of sick individual would take delight in the pain of others?  Your God does, your religion encourages and teaches this "fear" of going to hell to young children.  This is a form of abuse, which I suffered from mentally as a child.

      You don't know the son of God.  Only someone who truly knows Him and rejects Him could be truly evil.  Did Jesus not display love? Was not dying for our sins on our behalf love? I suspect you are thinking of the Old Testament.   If you read the literal translation of it, you'd realize that the Father of Jesus does not feature most of the time.   It is lifted from paganism and the occult.  So separate the evil in the Old Testament to Jesus.  They contradict each other.   So God does not create wars especially since Jesus condemned it.  We needed through the baby out with the bath water.  Those who exploit Christianity need to be chastised; not the Gospels themselves.   No one goes to hell because they don't believe in Jesus.  How can you reject Him if you never knew Him on earth? Are the aborigines going to hell because they never heard of Jesus? Only those who truly know Jesus is the son of God and despise Him for His holiness and won't repent for sin will have hell self imposed as hell is the complete separation from God.  God does not teach fear of going to hell in children.  Did Jesus do that? It is absolutely correct that threatening children with hell is child abuse.   I can understand why Christianity would make you upset because you associate it with the fear you felt.  Remember, it is people who exploit Christianity and those fear-mongerers do not serve Christ.  Jesus said perfect love casts out all fear. 

      So, its not fear or insecurity that brought me here but a thread to this discussion which came up in my  feed, to which I had no say in and after reading your entire post, I will now ask you with a passionate plea for You and others like you, to stop your "unchristian" actions of baiting Atheists and give us some real discussion topics to debate. Perhaps if you take a real good look at yourself, your own actions and the religion you hold so close to yourself, you will see that it is not as righteous as you believe it be. It is time to drop these petty fictional beliefs in religion that push us apart and separate us as a human species and instead unite to solve more important and relevant issues.

      My intention was not to bait anyone.  This was a genuine question I had.

      1. nightwork4 profile image61
        nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        everything in the bible is based in some way on fear. from adam and eve to noah, fear and punishment are the main ingredience. i have spent my life seeing many, many christians do things that are horrible by any standards , so of course i am going to want people to leave the religion. as for your god or jesus being loving, your god supposedly let his only son be murdered to make a point, murdered to make a point and you call this loving. every day babies are born diseased, born deformed and in pain and yet you still call him loving. defend your beliefs until you are blue in the face but in the end, when you die miss, you are dead. it's really that simple. the thing that bothers me the most about you is this loving god thing you come up with, what freaking love are you talking about. floods, disease, volcanoes, hurricanes, yup, that's love. wow. the possibility of some god doesn't anger me, i hope there is one when i die so i can tell him he's a piece of >>>>.

        1. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          That's the OT; pagan nonsense that Adam and Eve story, etc.   Yes, Christians can do horrible things.  Those are the ones who don't love Jesus should they feel no remorse.  Atheists do horrible things.  Should I think that atheism is bad?

          No, God did not let His Son get murdered to make a POINT.  Wow.  Remember, it was not only Jesus that suffered it was God, too, because Jesus is also God incarnate.  If God did not allow Jesus to die, He could not have resurrected after taking on the sin of the world.  Jesus came to identify with man, too, and man experiences death.  Jesus came here to witness to the truth and many will put those who espouse the truth to death.   There is no greater love than one who lays down His life for another.   So I know you don't understand this. 

          So how is God responsible for babies being deformed, etc?  Most of the misery of the world is caused by man who got free will from God.  In fact, it was out of man's free will that Jesus was put to death.   Sin is what causes suffering and did you know that good men who do nothing indirectly are responsible for suffering?

          Let's examine how man is responsible for suffering, not God.   Disease: governments don't want to improve sanitary maybe out of greed, for example.   Disease can be manufactured in a lab to keep down the population.  Volcanoes are actually necessary to fertilize the earth which provide an income for many.   Hurricanes also help nature.   There are very powerful people who inflict suffering and evil for their own agenda.  For example, the weather manipulation technology HAARP can also create hurricanes and cause earthquakes, for example.

          So how is this God's fault?  When people don't speak out against evil THEY are indirectly responsible for evil.   If all had faith and obeyed Jesus, evil would shrivel up and die but most don't want to do that.   God feels our pain also. 

          So how do you propose God counters disease, deformity and volcanoes?

          Everyone appears to forget Satan who corrupted the world, too.

          You don't know there is no consciousness after death.  How can you know for sure?

          You will have the opportunity to face Jesus and you will then realize your attitude was due to ignorance and the wrong perception.

          1. Astralrose profile image84
            Astralroseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I found this link months ago and decided to share it here:

            http://godisimaginary.com/i39.htm

            1. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I find it really annoying when people from these websites forget that the Bible was not written in English.  It was written in Greek so what is said in English can have a different context.  Let's examine them:

              The quotes from the website are in italics:

              "A person who is a hypocrite is certainly a jerk. No one likes a hypocrite, because hypocrites are smugly foolish. And Jesus seems to have a problem with hypocrisy. For example, one of Jesus' most famous lines is, "Love your enemies," as he says here in Matthew 5:43:

              "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
              He reiterates the message in Luke 6:26:

              "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

              That seems simple enough. And wouldn't you expect Jesus to love his enemies? Yes you would, unless he is a hypocrite. Therefore, what we find in Mark 16:15-16 is surprising. It shows us how Jesus treats his enemies:

              He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned [to hell].
              This is "good" news? Jesus doesn't love his enemies at all. In fact, you don't even need to be an enemy -- even those who would rather not "believe in" Jesus are condemned to eternal torture in a lake of fire. This level of hypocrisy is the kind of thing you expect from a jerk. For further examples of hypocrisy and contradiction, try comparing Matthew 5:16 with Matthew 6:1, or John 14:27 with Matthew 10:34, or 2 Kings 2:11 with John 3:13, or Exodus 33:11 with John 1:18, or Mark 9:40 with Luke 11:23."


              Loving one's enemies does not mean love in the conventional sense.  It does not mean we must feel undying love for them.  It means that we must not exact revenge on them. 

              Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

              Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing (Luke 23:34)

              Now punishment and revenge are different things.  A murderer is sentenced for his crime.  That's punishment.  But if the family of the murdered person goes and murders the murderer, that is revenge.  Revenge means paying evil with evil.

              In the context of loving people who do wrong to you, you must not allow them to have a hold over you by not forgiving them.   They may not repent but it is only for your benefit to make peace with what they have done to a person.   It is perfectly understandable that when someone has been seriously aggrieved they will not forgive the person.  It is raw initially and it can remain raw for a couple of years.  However, one truly gets their life back when they have made peace with their situation and no longer harbours any grudge against them.   I have forgiven someone in my life who has had a negative impact to many people and I feel very free because of that.

              In the same way, a person who breaks his promises is a jerk. We can see that Jesus breaks promises by looking at Mark 11:24:

              Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

              In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we find the same thing:

              I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
              When a person says, "ask anything in my name, and I will do it," what does he mean? Presumably, Jesus means that if you ask for anything, he will do it. What else could he possibly mean, unless he is being dishonest? And Jesus does not say it once. He says the same thing over and over again. In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." You may have noticed, however, that Jesus is lying. You can pray for all sorts of things and nothing will happen. We all know that. A person who breaks his promises like this is clearly a jerk.


              One must ask in prayer to receive the Holy Spirit and by receiving the Holy Spirit He will make sure all that is spiritually good for you will come their own way.  We will receive from God what His own will is.  For example, Jesus asked to be delivered from the crucifixion and taking on the world's sin in the Garden of Gethsemane but it was not God's will.  If God gave Jesus what He was tempted to ask, we would not be saved.  I know that when I prayer for anything, I will receive the right guidance.  I will not receive something that will spiritually corrupt me.

              Matthew 21:22 (ESV)
              22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

              If you have faith that God will grant to us what we ask for if it is good for our faith.

              More here:

              http://www.gotquestions.org/ask-and-you … ceive.html

              What if Jesus tells stories that are completely untrue? For example, take Matthew 4:8 as an example:

              "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

              The problem with this story is that the earth must be flat for it to work. From a tall mountain it is impossible to see "all the kingdoms." Even standing on Mt. Everest, the tallest mountain on earth, the farthest you could see is 250 miles to the horizon"


              This is just silly.  It is not literal that Satan showed Him all the kingdoms.  It was a vision.


              Another easy way to see that Jesus is a jerk is to recognize his bigotry. In Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation:

              A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."


              Jesus mingled with the Gentiles and obviously did not think they are inferior.  He did not believe she was a dog; He was just using the name giving for gentiles to test her faith.  He was showing that it doesn't matter if someone is a Gentile or a Jew, if they have faith in Him they will receive Him.  Jesus often treated people in a certain way to demonstrate how great faith is.  He wanted to see if she would continue asking Him in faith or just accept she was a "dog".  And He praised her for her faith.  She had humbled herself and submitted to the Lord and recognized she was not worthy.  We have to do the same.  He need to acknowledge that we will never received the Holy Spirit unless we acknowledge we sin and humble ourselves.

              If you are a person who steals other people's stuff, you are a jerk. In Mark 11:1-3 we find this transaction:

              As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.' "


              Luke 19:29-35 explains what this means better:

              29 As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30 “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it.’”

              32 Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?”

              34 They replied, “The Lord needs it.”

              35 They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it.

              It is clear that the owners the disciples permission to take his donkeys.  They did not protest.  It seems obvious that the owner knew what was going on and that Jesus must have approached him beforehand. 

              If someone tried to steal my car, I would certainly not ask them, "Why are you taking my car?" I'd say, "I'm calling the police!"

              By the way, that is not the only place in the Bible where Jesus steals something. In Matthew 8:28-34 Jesus steals an entire herd of pigs and kills them all.

              Here's the context:

              The  oldest Greek manuscripts (Mark) say this miracle took place in the land of the Gerasenes (no lake there).  If this is the case, the pigs would have had to run 31 miles.  That's impossible because the tenders of the pigs would never known what had happened to the pigs.
              When the author of Matthew read Mark's version, he saw the impossibility of Jesus and the gang disembarking at Gerasa (which, by the way, was also in a different country, the so-called Decapolis). Since the only town in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee that he knew of that started with G was Gadara, he changed Gerasa to Gadara. But even Gadara was five miles from the shore - and in a different country. Later copyists of the Greek manuscripts of all three pig-drowning gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) improved Gadara further to Gergesa, a region now thought to have actually formed part of the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee.



              If we want to follow Matthew and place the exorcism at Gadara, let us see what happened to the Gadarenes in the Jewish War of Josephus:
              “Vespasian sent Placidus with 500 horse and 3000 foot to pursue those who had fled from Gadara,... (5) Placidus, relying on his cavalry and emboldened by his previous success, pursued the Gadarenes, killing all whom he overtook, as far as the Jordan. Having driven the whole multitude up to the river, where they were blocked by the stream, which being swollen by the rain was unfordable, he drew up his troops in line opposite them. Necessity goaded them to battle, flight being impossible... Fifteen thousand perished by the enemy’s hands, while the number of those who were driven to fling themselves into the Jordan was incalculable; about two thousand two hundred were captured. A mighty prey was taken also, consisting of asses, and sheep, and camels, and oxen (6) This blow was the greatest that had befallen the Jews, and appeared even greater than is was; for not only was the whole countryside through which their flight had lain one scene of carnage, and the Jordan choked with dead, but even the [Dead Sea] was filled with bodies, masses of which were carried down into it by the river.” War 4. 7. 4-6

              Again the Jews are driven into the water by the Romans and thousands are drowned. We should ask, did the people of the East herd swine? There is no record of this being a contemporary practice in the area. Perhaps in Europe, but not Syria or Judea. Note when Placidus captured the livestock of the Gadarenes it consisted of asses, sheep, camels, and oxen. No swine! Some might say, “of course not, Jesus drove them to destruction.” This begs the question of the near forty years between the destruction of the Gadarene swine by Jesus, and the Roman destruction of the Gadarenes in 67. There was plenty of time for the Gadarenes to raise another ‘herd of swine’.

              Read more here:

              http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/Swine.htm

              "The first act of his ministry among the Jews was casting out a demon; the first act of his ministry among the Gentiles would be to cast out a horde of demons. Jesus is faced with an unknown number, but probably several thousand (a “Legion” was major unit of the Roman army consisting of four to six thousand men) in one or two men (in Mark we have just one man but in Matthew there are two men).
              Because the spirits were “unclean,” it probably would have been regarded as poetic justice for them to be sent off into “unclean” animals. Traditionally Christians have read this passage as representing the beginning of the purification of Gentile lands because both unclean animals and unclean spirits were banished to the sea which Jesus had already demonstrated his power and authority over.

              It’s arguable, though, that this story may have been more properly read as a parable about the unwanted presence of the Roman Legions. They, of course, would not have wanted to be sent out of the country but many Jews would have wanted to see them driven into the sea."



              Considering that swine herding was not a known practice there, I believe that this Jesus exorcism story was a metaphor or parable for the war on the Gadarenes.  Gadarenes were also gentiles and were considered swine.




              Have you noticed that in many cases Jesus is childish and emotional, rather than thoughtful? People who act like this are jerks. Here's an example from Matthew 18:7-9:

              "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
              This statement is totally ridiculous on several different levels. First, something like a hand cannot "cause you to sin" -- your brain causes "sin." Every intelligent person knows that. Therefore, gouging your eye out or cutting your hand off is useless. If you have a problem with "sin" and you are going to amputate something to solve it, you would need to amputate your brain, since that is where all "sin" originates.

              But if you think about it further, you realize that Jesus has completely missed the actual remedy. If you are having a problem with unproductive behaviors, what you need to do is either educate or rehabilitate yourself. You would do that by talking with a counselor or seeing a therapist. Amputation is an absurd prescription, as every intelligent person knows. Jesus is not only a jerk -- he is an idiot. He dispenses advice that is completely useless, and recklessly dangerous as well.


              My goodness, the guy is clueless.  Do you know how frustrating it must have been for Jesus that people refused to turn away the sin despite telling them what sin does to a person? Can Jesus not get frustrated.  For heaven's sake, why does this writer assume everything Jesus said is literal? He did literally mean amputation.  Of course committing sin originates with the brain but we use our hands to carry out an evil act. 

              Here is another emotional outburst from Mark 11:15-16:

              On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.


              Yes, Jesus is a complete doormat.  He should have said to the money-changers, "Please stop ripping off these people in God's house.  Thanks for trying."  No, it was righteous anger.  I get very upset when people insult Jesus.


              In Mark 11:12-14 we find another emotional reaction:

              The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

              Later we learn that the tree is dead.

              Let's see. The son of God is hungry. He approaches a fig tree. The tree is out of season and has no fruit. Jesus wants fruit. So he kills the tree. What a total jerk! Why didn't he wave his all-powerful hand and cause figs to appear? Or how about borrowing a raisin from someone and turning it into a 5,000 baskets of figs? Only a true jerk would kill something out of spite.


              Again this writer doesn't know the symbology behind this.

              "First, in the Old Testament the fig tree often stood as a symbol for the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 8:13; Hosea 9:10). Second, we also need to observe that the cursing of the fig tree occurs on Monday of Jesus's Passion Week, four days before his crucifixion. Third, this story is placed next to the story of Jesus cleansing the temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 21:12-17). The money lenders had turned the Lord's house into a den of thieves. They were profiteers who exchanged foreign currency and also sold the animals that worshipers from distant towns would buy to sacrifice before the Lord. By shrewd marketing they could charge exorbitant rates and make a killing off the pilgrims who came to worship. The whole scene angered our Lord because he knew that the temple should be a house of prayer for all nations.

              Cursing the fig tree was Jesus's way of saying that the whole nation had become spiritually barren before the Lord. They had the form of religion but not the reality. They knew the right words to say, but their hearts were far from God."

              http://www.keepbelieving.com/blog/2010- … o-quickly/

              Here is one final example. Let's say that you want to really jerk people around. One way to do that would be to constantly contradict yourself. Therefore, we find Jesus saying this in Luke 14:26:

              Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.


              The NT was not written in English.  It was written in Greece so this is a translation issue.  The Greek AND Hebrew equivalent to hate is love less.

              Numerous Greek scholars have added their combined years of study to the discussion to testify that the word “hate” (miseo) in Luke 14:26 does not mean “an active abhorrence,” but means “to love less.” E.W. Bullinger, in his monumental work, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, described the word “hate” in Luke 14:26 as hyperbole. He rendered the word as meaning “does not esteem them less than me” (1968, p. 426). W.E. Vine, the eminent Greek scholar, said the word miseo could carry the meaning of “a relative preference for one thing over another.” He listed Luke 14:26 under this particular definition (1940, p. 198). Lastly, A.B. Bruce, in The Expositor’s Greek Testament, stated that “the practical meaning” of the word “hate” in this verse is “love less” (n.d., p. 575).

              http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte … rticle=781

              Here's the Hebrew explanation:


              "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
              Talmudim, 'students' of Jewish rabbis were taught to place their affections for their teachers higher than that for their fathers, for:

              "his teacher has priority, for his father brought him into this world, but his teacher, who has taught him wisdom, brings him into the world to come".

              But 'hatred'? Surely that is taking loyalty to your teacher too far - even if your teacher is God in human form. For another commandment is that of honouring ones parents - which itself cannot be contradicted. Indeed, this verse in Luke has caused much anguish and pain between zealous Christian sons or daughters and their parents, who believing they were expressing their devotion to Jesus, had no regard or worse still, hatred, for their parents.

              But what we have here is another Hebrew problem. Biblical Hebrew lacks the necessary language to exactly define the comparative sense, i.e., 'more than' or 'less than'. Instead it tends to express two things which may be comparatively of different degree like 'first' and 'second' as extremes such as 'first' and 'last'. In this way love and hate whilst appearing as opposites may in fact be related but lesser terms such as 'love more' and 'love less'.

              "If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his." (Deuteronomy 21:15-17)

              A Jewish man was not allowed to abandon a 'hated' wife's son's rights of inheritance. But more than this, the Deuteronomy passage describes favouritism between two wives, not absolute love and hatred, for the man bears children by both. Hence, different Bible versions struggle with the phrase "hated" and some adopt "unloved" or "disliked", as softer phrases. However, the Hebrew word used in the second phrase is  sânê' (Strong’s #8130) which in its more than 140 uses is always translated by 'hate' or by words indicating 'foe' or 'enemy'. Literal versions cannot soften the apparent invective, only an idiomatic understanding or paraphrase can explain the metaphor.

              The Hebrew sânê' is the opposite of love which could mean 'non-election'. This contrast is the same in Genesis 29:31 between Leah ('hated' senû’âh from sânê’) and Rachel, who in the previous verse is described as "loved more than Leah", a contrast of degree not of absolute love and hate. Compare also the passages in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 above; 1 Samuel 1:5; Proverbs 30:23; 2 Samuel 19:6; and even Exodus 20:3 which speaks of preferring others gods as equivalent to hating God (cf. Matthew 6:24 on serving God and mammon, loving one and hating the other).

              The Jewish midrash on Exodus describes God as hating the angels, and not just the fallen ones. It does not mean he dislikes Michael and Gabriel! It means that he chooses to give man the Torah, rather than the angels:

              "By three names is this mount known: The mountain of God, Mount Horeb and Mount Sinai. . . . Why The mountain of God? (Exodus 18:5). Because it was there that God manifested His Godhead. And Sinai? Because [it was on that mount] that God showed that He hates the angels and loves mankind." (Exodus Rabbah 51.8, Soncino edition)

              There is actually a Hebrew wordplay here, for Sinai sounds like the Hebrew for hate, although it begins with a different Hebrew letter and may mean 'thorny'. Similarly, Malachi speaks of God's preference for Jacob over Esau:

              "... yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau..." (Malachi 1:2-3)

              But Esau, like Ishmael instead of Isaac, was not hated absolutely, only "rejected" as the Aramaic targum (paraphrase) prefers to render it. In Aramaic sanah can mean 'to hate' and 'to separate', so the gospels could be saying separate yourselves from your parents if you want to follow me. This is a possible interpretation, but still against Jewish and biblical culture which is very supportive of family. Apart from Jesus' 'separating' and staying behind in the temple when he was younger he was a very dutiful son."

              http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/lovehate.htm

              Jesus was saying that He must be put first before His parents.  People must love their parents less than Him.

              This can be backed up by:

              "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10:37)



              What if you want eternal life? What do you need to do? Presumably you need to hate everyone and life itself. Then in Luke 10:25-28 we find another requirement:

              On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

              "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

              He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

              "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

              Is that true? If you do this, will you have eternal life? Actually it is not true. In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says:


              A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

              "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

              "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

              When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


              Jesus had the same message in these two scriptures.  Jesus knew that the rich man loved his wealth more than Jesus and one cannot inherit eternal life if one loves earthly things over Jesus.  Luke 10 says to love the Lord with all your heart.  That is the first commandment.

              Jesus does not mean that we must make ourselves poor by selling everything.  He knows we have daily means but we must put Him first above wealth.  One cannot love Jesus and wealth at the same time.


              Then in John 6:53-58 we find an additional requirement:

              Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."


              We know that no one cannot possibly drink His blood and eat His flesh so obviously Jesus did not mean that in a literal sense.  It is most obviously that wine represented His blood and bread His body (Mark 14-25).

              He called a little child and had him stand among them. And [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
              How, exactly, does one "become like little children?" For example, little children frequently believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and often will fight fiercely with their siblings. Are we, as adults, supposed to take on these qualities? Jesus does not really say, making this requirement totally nebulous.

              But is it true? If you "become like little children", do you get to go to heaven? No, actually not. In reality you have to be "born again" in order to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:3-8 Jesus says:

              "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
              "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

              Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."


              Jesus meant if you do not have faith like a child, then one cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.  Why? Because a child trusts their children implicitly.  They do not ask, "But can I trust my parents?" It is the same with God.  We must have faith in Him and believe He has our best interests at heart.   So being born again means submitting to God and putting one's sinful life behind us.


              This is getting absurd, isn't it? Pharisees and scribes are adults, not children. And if you read the Bible, you know that the Pharisees were anal nut-jobs. But that is what Jesus says. Forget the "born again" stuff and the children -- turn yourself into an anal nut-job instead. Our righteousness, and our adherence to the laws of the old testament, must exceed that of the Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Which means we need to start killing a whole lot of people.

              The Pharisees's "righteousness" was that they were staunch believers of the scriptures yet contradicted them in their hypocrisy.  So unless one has righteousness that obeys the Lord of the Lord, one cannot inherit eternal life.  And God's law was never to murder people.

          2. JMcFarland profile image91
            JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Whoa, wait a minute.  Old testament pagan crap?  You're a Christian but you chuck out half of your holy book and call it pagan?  The old testament is the foundation of the Jewish faith.  Jesus (if he ever existed) WAS a Jew.  Without the old testament, there would be no Jesus at all.  The Jews were certainly not pagan.

            Not to mention you never responded to what I initially said.  What kind of reaction do you expect to get from non-believers when you pose a question to them - but go on to answer it with your assumption (which was not based on anything whatsoever) before anyone can actually give you am answer?  If you want an open, honest discussion about the many problems with christianity or how secular morals are superior to biblical morals, let's go.  But you don't want all Christians limped into a stereotype and labeled as ignorant -but you do the same thing to non-believers by calling us all insecure.

            1. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well, lots of it it pagan and occultic.  That's true.  Remember the Jews were influenced a lot by paganism.   For example, serpent worship is pagan.   God said if anyone looked at the bronze snake, they'd be healed of their snake bites.

              Numbers 21:

              " 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

              9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numbers21:4

              2 Kings 18:1-4
              King James Version (KJV)
              18 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

              2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.

              3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that David his father did.

              4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.


              As you may recall, Moses was supposed to be frustrated with the Israelites bowing down to graven idols but here he comes and makes a brazen serpent that the Israelites ultimately worshipped. 

              And, well, the serpent is depicted as the devil in Genesis.

              Isaiah 27

              In that day [referring to the final day, the great day of the LORD] the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea."

              Amos 9:3

              "And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out there; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, there will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them"

              I also don't dismiss the whole of the Old Testament.



              Yes, I posed a question which I believed was the right answer.  I wanted atheists to either correct me or confirm it for me.  It's just the way I posed the question.  As I said to someone else, however, I phrased the question incorrectly.  It should be entitled, "What motivates atheists who resort to only ad hominems?"

              I agree my the title of my forum is not completely fair.  However, I do pick up insecurity from atheists who do not insult.   When they show me the evil in the OT, I try and correct them by saying how heavily influenced it is by paganism but no atheist I have come across has entertained this idea even though my argument is sound.  They insist on thinking the Father of Jesus is responsible for the evil in the Old Testament.  Then they accuse me of not being a real Christian because of my take on the Old Testament.

              Saying hell doesn't exist as a fact is not possible, either.  To say hell does not exist is insecurity.   

              There is someone here that insists that Jesus is evil even when I counter that argument.

              1. Chalilah profile image61
                Chalilahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Actually... The Old Testament is as accurate as the new.  It all makes up the Bible; without the OT it is nearly impossible to fully understand the New Testament and live the way that God has planned for you.

                1. Claire Evans profile image90
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If so, Moses was a devil-worshipper.  I'm sure the OT all of "God's" violence helps us explain why Jesus contradicted him.  Not.  It's heavily corrupted.

                  I believe there was a Moses-type character but not the Moses that is depicted in the OT.

                  1. Chalilah profile image61
                    Chalilahposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, okay, but the evidence is there. And I'm not trying to argue with you sister; you're my sister in Christ.  We're family.  2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "Teach, rebuke, correct, and train one another."  So, here goes.  If it is heavily corrupted, then why did Jesus and the apostles and disciples heavily refer to it in their speeches, often word for word?  Why didn't Jesus mention that it was tainted and needed correcting when He quoted them ver batum in order to make His case that He is the Messiah that fulfilled all Old Testament prophecies?  If He corrected the Pharisees and pointed out the holes in their laws then He would have surely mentioned that as well.
                    If the Old Testament is pagan and contradicts the New Testament, then how is it that the entire Bible is fluid with nothing contradicting the other? 
                    Whenever it seems that something does not make sense to you, its imperative that you ask God for guidance, spend time with Him, and do your research.  Hebrew/Greek word studies, historical data, archaeological data, etc; it all helps you to gain a better understanding of the Word.  I would recommend the Apologetics Study Bible by Holman and the Holman Christian Standard Bible.  They are both extremely useful.

          3. nightwork4 profile image61
            nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            B.S to put it bluntly. if your god is all knowing and seeing, why would he need to get a virgin pregnant and have her carry his kid so that that kid could take on the sin of the world, that makes no sense. as for deformed babies, many of them are deformed due to genetics, which humans can't control, it has nothing to do with free will or how they live their lives.there was disease since the beginning of man so blaming it on us is again, nonsense.if god is so perfect, why did he make it so volcanoes, which over time have killed millions, are even needed. couldn't he have made it so they aren't needed.your whole debate is flawed. this god you speak of is either very weak or has a horrible sense of humor. i won't even get into how you called the old testament pagan nonsense since it was also supposed to be the word of god.

      2. recommend1 profile image71
        recommend1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Tinsky clearly put in some time on her long but clear post -summing up how at least one atheist sees life  --  It at least deserved more consideration than the childish retorts that Claire pasted into it.  I would say this is typical of this kind of discussion which is generally considered argument versus babbling half-wits.

        1. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Huh? Retorts?  Do you not appreciate the other side of the story?

      3. Tinsky profile image92
        Tinskyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Personally I think your answer is a little bit of a cop out. Why does Science have to disprove or prove the existence of God? You're the one saying you believe in God, you're the Christian, provide me with true undeniable evidence other than the man made stories in your Bible. Which by the way is not a complete compendium, many stories written on the same subject around Constantine's time were excluded by the Catholic church especially those in the new testament because they were too horrific to be printed. (An Anglican Monk taught me this when I was once taking confirmation lessons). And yes, perhaps the Earth, the Sun, the Universe or the big black hole at the centre of our Galaxy is "god".  I mean if you look at it technically, you'd probably lean more towards the Sun.  Our Sun is a second generation star, which means it was a different type of Sun first which exploded and created large amounts of gas and rock and star dust and reformed into our our current Solar system. Without the Sun, life as we know it wouldn't exist on Earth.  But I don't think the Sun is the "god" you worship in the bible. That would make you pagan.  After all, didn't god create man in his image or are you now saying that is a falsehood?  I guess you could try the argument that we are all made of stardust and I'd have to agree, we are made of stardust.  But that still doesn't give me any evidence to believe in your god, or your religion.



        Well for one, you took it on yourself to ask a question and then decided to know the answer before giving anyone a fair chance to put their case forward.  Did you really want answers or were you trying to antagonise those who don't believe?  Going by the discourse on this forum and your responses which appear to be extremely closed minded and extreme, I'd say you were trying to achieve the latter.



        I'm glad you mentioned the last bit, because I found your post insulting by assuming Atheists come to these threads, because they are insecure.  You've also inferred in this response, that I'm evil and the spawn of satan.  If I believed in satan, I might find it insulting.  If I use your logic that means that you are insecure about your own religion and beliefs, since you seem to enjoy trying denigrate Atheists their non-beliefs.

        However, I have to admit that I disagree with your logic.  I came here based on a short tease of a thread, purely to share with you my own thoughts about the question you posed, until I read your post in its entirety. Why ask a question if you are going to give your own answer which is insulting?  Are all Christians tarred with the same brush as you? What or who gives you the right to judge me or any non-believer?



        That's your choice. I'm hoping to be dumped into a hole in a body bag, so my body can return the earth much quicker.  I've always pondered about Christians being cremated.  If you believe Jesus is coming back to save you and take you to heaven aren't you meant to have a body to rise up from the ground in which is facing East?  That could be a bit of a problem.  It also reminds me of Zombies.



        I'm not one for conspiracy theories and since I've never taken an interest in the KKK I'll leave that one to you.    But there is good and bad in all of us.  Choices are limited in life, freedom is an illusion after all. But this hell on Earth you talk about, I recall reading in an earlier post to "Getitrite" where you mention that:



        Aren't you doing just the same with this response ? The new testament does a great job of making God look like a monster as well. What type of father would want to put their only child through such persecution just so those that believe in his son would be saved?  Why did he have to kill his own son for you to be saved?  Isn't he god? Couldn't he just forgive without causing all that pain to his only child?  Again, I have no interest in believing or following a god that would allow such supposed cruelty to be done to his only son.  Nor do I want to go to a heaven knowing that there are other people in some hot fire being tortured by the devil.  No Thanks, I'm not that cruel or heartless.



        No, no. I don't, because the biblical Jesus isn't real. Oh sure, there may have been a man back then who was a prophet or spiritual guide.  Although I guess you've changed your mind now and decided I must be evil since I have renounced all three?

        Not sure where you got your facts from about the old Testament, but its actually based on the Torah. Are you calling the "chosen ones", the Jewish people, the people that jesus is meant to belong to, pagans?

        It seems to me you worship jesus more than your god. Do you also worship a graven image of Mary? I know you don't have a lot of credence in the old testament but, doesn't the old testament teach that you are not meant to worship or bow down to any other graven image or worship anyone else but your God? If the old testament is so meaningless to you, why do Christian religions still included it in the "teachings" of the bible? Why are you so selective about the contents of the bible?  You seem to pick and choose what suits you to give credence to your belief in a religion and god, based on stories written and created by men to control people, just like yourself by giving them false knowledge and  / or preventing true knowledge from spreading.

        Since I realised that I am an Atheist, I no longer fear death, it has left me and I have never felt more secure about discovering everything that we can know about Science and the Universe, its beauty, majesty and terrors (which in turn can be just as beautiful really). I'm really excited about string theory to be honest.  After my first visit to Sunday school at the age of 6, my brother who had taken me to church was asked not to bring me back because I asked too many questions which bothered the other children. I've always been fascinated by our Universe and science.  Children have a natural inclination towards science and discovering how things work, when the preaching of religion doesn't intervene. 



        If it was a genuine question, why answer it yourself as if you already knew the answer and why be so condescending about it or try to argue with those Atheists who are giving you the answers you asked for? Why ask the question at all in that case if you already were so certain of the answer?

        It's 3.43 AM and I have enjoyed this rebuttal. Apologise for grammar and spelling errors but its late. It's also my birthday and I'm going to bed now.  I actually hope that perhaps you can learn something from this discussion, something that may help to awaken you from your false beliefs.  But having been a christian for at least 20-30 years of my life on and off, I understand that it takes more than an Atheist's truthful discourse to change a hardcore christian's belief.   My own change was gradual.  I hope though, our discussion will start you thinking a little bit more outside the square into which you've chosen to be boxed.

        1. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Personally I think your answer is a little bit of a cop out. Why does Science have to disprove or prove the existence of God? You're the one saying you believe in God, you're the Christian, provide me with true undeniable evidence other than the man made stories in your Bible.

          Nope, there is no empirical evidence that Jesus is the son of God.  It is not a fact.  It's the truth but it isn't factual. 


          Which by the way is not a complete compendium, many stories written on the same subject around Constantine's time were excluded by the Catholic church especially those in the new testament because they were too horrific to be printed. (An Anglican Monk taught me this when I was once taking confirmation lessons)

          Please elaborate.   Those discarded where hoax gospels like the Gnostic gospels.


          . And yes, perhaps the Earth, the Sun, the Universe or the big black hole at the centre of our Galaxy is "god".  I mean if you look at it technically, you'd probably lean more towards the Sun.  Our Sun is a second generation star, which means it was a different type of Sun first which exploded and created large amounts of gas and rock and star dust and reformed into our our current Solar system. Without the Sun, life as we know it wouldn't exist on Earth.  But I don't think the Sun is the "god" you worship in the bible. That would make you pagan.  After all, didn't god create man in his image or are you now saying that is a falsehood?  I guess you could try the argument that we are all made of stardust and I'd have to agree, we are made of stardust.  But that still doesn't give me any evidence to believe in your god, or your religion.

          Actually the sun god is Satan as sun worship is Satanic.  God did not create us in His physical image.  He doesn't have a physical being.   The image referred to is God's nature like having love, compassion, courage, etc. 



          Well for one, you took it on yourself to ask a question and then decided to know the answer before giving anyone a fair chance to put their case forward.  Did you really want answers or were you trying to antagonise those who don't believe?  Going by the discourse on this forum and your responses which appear to be extremely closed minded and extreme, I'd say you were trying to achieve the latter.


          I gave an answer to my question to give atheists the chance to refute it.   I don't believe I'm being close-minded in my responses. 




          I'm glad you mentioned the last bit, because I found your post insulting by assuming Atheists come to these threads, because they are insecure.  You've also inferred in this response, that I'm evil and the spawn of satan.  If I believed in satan, I might find it insulting.  If I use your logic that means that you are insecure about your own religion and beliefs, since you seem to enjoy trying denigrate Atheists their non-beliefs.

          No, I said atheists who come to these threads with the sole purpose of insulting.  Nope, I never inferred that you are a Satanist.   I said Satanists exploit atheism for their own agenda.  They corrupted religion in the first place by infiltrating the Vatican and thus atheists would naturally be disillusioned with Christianity.  So they don't recruit atheists, they just take advantage of their mind set.  And they use Christians, too. 

          However, I have to admit that I disagree with your logic.  I came here based on a short tease of a thread, purely to share with you my own thoughts about the question you posed, until I read your post in its entirety. Why ask a question if you are going to give your own answer which is insulting?  Are all Christians tarred with the same brush as you? What or who gives you the right to judge me or any non-believer?

          I do admit that I generalized in the title of the thread but hopefully down the line I can make it clear that I was referring to atheists that I described in my commentary.   Here is the comment I wrote to someone else:

          "The insecure atheists I'm thinking about is what I described not the atheist who goes on with his life not actually caring if Jesus is the son of God or not.   You will get some who come onto these forums out of interest sake and because they like debating but there are others who come here to purposely insult Christians with nothing constructive to say.   I've definitely come across atheists who I believe don't feel threatened in the least. 

          I did make a generalization in the title but I hope my elaboration on the title cleared up ambiguity, which it really did not, unfortunately.   We often tend to generalize.  If I recall correctly, someone here said that Christians don't have morals.  That's not true."




          That's your choice. I'm hoping to be dumped into a hole in a body bag, so my body can return the earth much quicker.  I've always pondered about Christians being cremated.  If you believe Jesus is coming back to save you and take you to heaven aren't you meant to have a body to rise up from the ground in which is facing East?  That could be a bit of a problem.  It also reminds me of Zombies.[/i]

          Our earthly body won't be resurrected but our glorified bodies. 



          I'm not one for conspiracy theories and since I've never taken an interest in the KKK I'll leave that one to you.    But there is good and bad in all of us.  Choices are limited in life, freedom is an illusion after all. But this hell on Earth you talk about, I recall reading in an earlier post to "Getitrite" where you mention that:

          There is good and bad in everyone, yes.  However, Jesus sets us free. 



          Aren't you doing just the same with this response ? The new testament does a great job of making God look like a monster as well. What type of father would want to put their only child through such persecution just so those that believe in his son would be saved?  Why did he have to kill his own son for you to be saved?  Isn't he god? Couldn't he just forgive without causing all that pain to his only child?  Again, I have no interest in believing or following a god that would allow such supposed cruelty to be done to his only son.  Nor do I want to go to a heaven knowing that there are other people in some hot fire being tortured by the devil.  No Thanks, I'm not that cruel or heartless.

          I've never threatened atheists with hell.  Ever.  How can Jesus rise from the dead and convince people of God's power if it wasn't a public death? Perfect love is laying down their life for another.  Jesus came to witness for the truth and that led to Him being put to death.  God never WANTED to put Jesus through persecution.  How can God save Jesus from death but let the rest of humanity die for the truth? So why do you think God killed Jesus? The Pharisees wanted Jesus did and the Romans put Him to death. 

          Hell is a self-imposed punishment.  God actually doesn't send someone to hell.  They do not want to repent and part with their sin.   So how can God go near them? Hell is the complete separation from God. 



          No, no. I don't, because the biblical Jesus isn't real. Oh sure, there may have been a man back then who was a prophet or spiritual guide.  Although I guess you've changed your mind now and decided I must be evil since I have renounced all three?

          No, you aren't evil.  You just don't understand.

          Not sure where you got your facts from about the old Testament, but its actually based on the Torah. Are you calling the "chosen ones", the Jewish people, the people that jesus is meant to belong to, pagans?

          The Israelites tended to worship pagan gods.

          It seems to me you worship jesus more than your god. Do you also worship a graven image of Mary? I know you don't have a lot of credence in the old testament but, doesn't the old testament teach that you are not meant to worship or bow down to any other graven image or worship anyone else but your God? If the old testament is so meaningless to you, why do Christian religions still included it in the "teachings" of the bible? Why are you so selective about the contents of the bible?  You seem to pick and choose what suits you to give credence to your belief in a religion and god, based on stories written and created by men to control people, just like yourself by giving them false knowledge and  / or preventing true knowledge from spreading.

          Jesus and God are one in the form of the Holy Spirit.  They just became separate entities on earth because Jesus being God incarnate had a body and took on the role of the Son while God has no body and took on the role of the Father.   I've never claimed that the whole of the OT is redundant.  I've always wondered why the Christian church does not address the horrors of the OT.  Yes, they never mention the parts of Moses ordering rape but they don't challenge it.  It's cowardice.

          What I reject in the OT is what contradicts Jesus.  Is that not reasonable?  You are assuming I'm giving false knowledge.  Luckily, no one has to take what I say seriously.  I don't burn people at the stake for not being Christian.

          Since I realised that I am an Atheist, I no longer fear death, it has left me and I have never felt more secure about discovering everything that we can know about Science and the Universe, its beauty, majesty and terrors (which in turn can be just as beautiful really). I'm really excited about string theory to be honest.  After my first visit to Sunday school at the age of 6, my brother who had taken me to church was asked not to bring me back because I asked too many questions which bothered the other children. I've always been fascinated by our Universe and science.  Children have a natural inclination towards science and discovering how things work, when the preaching of religion doesn't intervene.

          As a Christian, I do not fear death.  It is just a transition from one life form to another.  With Jesus, there will be no more suffering. 



          If it was a genuine question, why answer it yourself as if you already knew the answer and why be so condescending about it or try to argue with those Atheists who are giving you the answers you asked for? Why ask the question at all in that case if you already were so certain of the answer?

          I've clarified the above.

          It's 3.43 AM and I have enjoyed this rebuttal. Apologise for grammar and spelling errors but its late. It's also my birthday and I'm going to bed now.  I actually hope that perhaps you can learn something from this discussion, something that may help to awaken you from your false beliefs.  But having been a christian for at least 20-30 years of my life on and off, I understand that it takes more than an Atheist's truthful discourse to change a hardcore christian's belief.   My own change was gradual.  I hope though, our discussion will start you thinking a little bit more outside the square into which you've chosen to be boxed.

          I don't have false beliefs.  You just think I do. 

          Anyway, I hoped you had a great birthday.

  6. recommend1 profile image71
    recommend1posted 4 years ago

    Normal people are motivated by living life for the fantastic opportunity of just being alive, justice, kindness, curiosity and the joy of being with other normal people.  Religious types of all persuasions seem to want to make everyone elses life a misery while they revel in ignorance.

    1. A Troubled Woman profile image61
      A Troubled Womanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Great reply!

      Amen...

    2. lone77star profile image89
      lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting generality, @recommend1.

      Is it in keeping with your live and let live philosophy to be so judgmental and inaccurate? Or perhaps you don't get out much. I've met many religious people who are loving and caring.

      Basing your conclusions on an incomplete sampling is not very scientific.

  7. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago

    Fundamentally speaking, it is intellectually dishonest to pose a question claiming sincerity when you turn around and answer the question in the very same post before anyone could answer it.  You made an assumption that simply isn't based on anything more than your opinion. 

    When this topic came up in my feed, it showed up as "what motivates atheists"  once I got here, however, I was able to read the whole thing and realize that you didn't really want to know.  Deciding that someone else is insecure IS    insulting.  You're guilty of the very thing you're claiming to be against.

  8. strkngfang profile image85
    strkngfangposted 4 years ago

    Religion and Politics are two subjects that you can fight about all day and you still won't change anyones minds on their beliefs so I never see the point in all of these forums asking??  All you do is anger the other posters.  All I can say is, believe what you want and time will tell if you made the right choice or not.  I'm a Christian, and the one thing I tell unbelievers is this:  If I go through my whole life believing in an imaginary being and doing good for people and I'm wrong, I'm not out anything; but if you don't believe and God is real, which I do believe HE is, then you are "in trouble"!!!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Awwww - trying to scare people into believing is "doing good"? lol

      This is why your religion causes so much hatred and ill will. What a waste of a life.

    2. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What if you go through your whole life and in the end you find out that Allah is the real god?  Then you are in big trouble.  So as you can see your train of logic is completely absurd, since you are, in fact, taking the same risk that I am.

    3. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      So, you see "doing good for people" as threatening them with your God because you believe they are "in trouble"?

      The one very important thing you'll miss out entirely is the logic and reasoning of doing good for people, you only do so because you're told to do it, or else, you'll be "in trouble".

      Non-believers aren't told what to do based on an imaginary being telling them to be good, they can figure it out themselves and understand the reasons why.

    4. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What you just did right there?  That's called pascal's wager, and it its fundamentally flawed and has been argued against thousands of times.

      Additionally, threatening people who don't believe the way you do with eternal torment is not usually a great debate tactic, it CAN be seen as a direct threat and since atheists don't believe in hell, its not something we spend any time fearing.  Just sayin

  9. strkngfang profile image85
    strkngfangposted 4 years ago

    "A waste of life", really? I figured that would be a reply, these comments are all the same & very predictable & almost humorous. I guess I asked for it by commenting in the first place.  No hard feelings and best of luck in whatever or whoever you believe in???

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No hard feelings at all. When hypocrisy is so easily spotted, it can be as humorous as it is predictable.

  10. getitrite profile image80
    getitriteposted 4 years ago

    Believer makes assertion.
    Believer is opposed by logical opposition.
    Believer, arrogantly, utters irrelevant, and false drivel.

    1. recommend1 profile image71
      recommend1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      and because christians especially have such poor morals they do not even have the decency to come back and apologise, or especially admit when they are clearly wrong.

      1. Tinsky profile image92
        Tinskyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Maybe they went Trick or Treating.

      2. getitrite profile image80
        getitriteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Disturbing.

      3. Astralrose profile image84
        Astralroseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        They don't generally admit they're wrong or say "maybe you're right, I'll keep my mind open."...

        1. recommend1 profile image71
          recommend1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes - and this is the root of the violent disagreements.  Now if only forum christians could do what most normal people can do and admit 'other' possibilities then a discussion could arise rather than the antagonistic mud-slinging.

          I, and I am sure others, would be fully prepared to say such things as "whether there is a god or not then this or that would still be true, or of course, would still not be true"  then some common ground could be found between the two sides.  But unfortunately it seems that this requires education, reasoning ability, a degree of objectivity and an open mind - as you say.  Forum christians with these attributes are as scarce as rocking horse poo.

          1. lone77star profile image89
            lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            What you seem to recommend, @recommend1, is a degree of humility. That's a good attribute for anyone -- atheist, Christian or otherwise.

            What if you found someone with those attributes? Would you start to qualify your generalities?

            I agree that such forum Christians are scarce. Too many of them seem motivated by ego, rather than the love they are supposed to be emulating.

            How much education are you talking about?

            How much reasoning ability?

            How would you describe the proper degree of objectivity?

            1. recommend1 profile image71
              recommend1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Education to the point of being able to make a reasoned argument based on facts - or the subject of the discussion

              Reasoning ability - enough to reason for yourself based on the subject matter or discussion

              Objectivity - the ability to stand outside the discussion or collection of facts and see all sides of the issue

              1. A Troubled Nurse profile image61
                A Troubled Nurseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "Objectivity - the ability to stand outside the discussion or collection of facts and see all sides of the issue"

                What is that? Do you know ANYONE who has ever done that (or was being capable of)?

                1. recommend1 profile image71
                  recommend1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I know many people who think like that, argue like that and reason like that - they are educated people.

                  I don't know about the US, but in the Uk most university courses are about or include this way of arguing and negotiating.

                  Interestingly, our very own leader of the Church of England not counting the queen as figure head of the church, is a slightly bonkers intellectual who argues and discusses religion like that.

                  1. A Troubled Nurse profile image61
                    A Troubled Nurseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Ten blind people can argue years after years that the Sun doesn't rise at night. Doesn't make much objective difference.

  11. profile image0
    Peelander Gallyposted 4 years ago

    In addition, it's also a bit annoying and trite to see a Christian playing the victim again. You may understand the message of the Bible better than many others and be more intelligent and tolerant than they, but that doesn't mean you should stand up and defend everyone, pretending they're equally tolerant. They're not. Paul Ryan, Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock have been discussed and lampooned ad nauseam, but they're good examples of what I mean.

  12. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago

    Oh, yeah and one more thing, Claire.

    If the story of Adam and eve and the entire old testament is pagan nonsense, there was no fall, no original sin - and no reason for Jesus to have to come here as good sacrificing himself to himself in the first place.  The whole purpose of your faith falls apart if you discount the old testament.

    Also, if you want to talk about paganism and reality - you do get that not one celebration, concept or idea in christianity does not have a root in paganism  right?

  13. getitrite profile image80
    getitriteposted 4 years ago

    It now looks like the person that is INSECURE is the one who started this thread, blindly using the mechanism of PROJECTION to cast their dilemma onto the object of their disdain, which in this case are the atheist.  I have not seen one post from the atheists, in this exchange, that would suggest insecurity.

    How psychotic.

    1. A Troubled Nurse profile image61
      A Troubled Nurseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Where should they be sent? Any idea?

  14. strkngfang profile image85
    strkngfangposted 4 years ago

    I just discovered that my account had been compromised but luckily the damage has been minimal.  Anyone who knows me knows I'm not into posting on forums, unless it is marital or medical related & I could benefit.  Thankfully they only hit a few & only left a few remarks. Oh well, new password & good to go again.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I commented on on your hub, "Here is some Proof that God Exists!!!!!" in which you dishonestly claimed you got all the information there from "Harvard Grad Scientists", yet the majority of your hub could be refuted by a high school student, so you then decided to delete my comment.

      Somehow, your claim of having your account compromised does not fair too well.

  15. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago

    Claire -
    your responses are simply astounding to me.  I was raised in the church and went to a Christian college, studied the bible in its original languages and took many, many classes on theology, biblical literature and christian apologetics.  Eventually, that path led me to atheism - not out of ignorance or insecurity, but because of real, defined, empirical knowledge. 

    You're right that the old testament is immoral and unjust.  That doesn't make it pagan. Your beliefs about the Old Testament are extreme, to say the least, and they disagree with most (if not all) of the 3000+ christian denominations worldwide.  You are making the same error that a lot of other christians make though.  They recognize that there are things in the OT that contradict what they believe to be moral and try to justify the cognitive dissonance by distancing themselves from it.  Most christians, however, just say the OT was god's old covenant with the jews, and when jesus appeared on earth he established a new covenant with his followers.

    the jews did tend to worship idols, and god repeatedly punished them by allowing them to be captured and enslaved.  god's teaching in the old testament is the law they repeatedly broke when they worshiped false idols - gods teaching, however, is not pagan nonsense according to the overwhelming majority of the people in the faith you claim to have.

    You admit that there is no evidence supporting jesus, but that you don't need evidence for something to be true.  I would agree that things in the bible CAN be true.  But I find nothing historically to prove that jesus actually existed.  No contemporary sources even mention the man, let alone the miraculous deeds that he is supposed to have done.  No one mentioned the hoard of jewish zombies that were raised from the dead at the moment of his death and went wandering around jerusalem.  No one mentioned people being raised from the dead, or the fact that he apparently walked on water.  There are no trial records, no roman reports, no nothing - and the romans were notorious record keepers.  The gospels are NOT written by the people whose name is on the top, and none of them were written by eyewitnesses.  In fact, the earliest gospel was written at least 40-60 years after jesus' death.

    I'm sure even you can admit that stories that are told repeatedly over a period of 50 years by word of mouth alone are less than reliable.  The author of the majority of the new testament never even met jesus - he envisioned him, and never mentioned anything about his life or teachings except his death.

    As far as the canonization of scripture and your belittling of the gnostic gospels you have shown by your own words that you don't really know or understand how the bible was canonized or the process that gave us the version we have now.  That version, btw, contradicts itself hundreds upon thousands of times in the four canonical gospels alone.

    Have you read the book?

  16. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 4 years ago

    "What truly motivates non-believers?"

    Logic.

    1. chriscamaro profile image95
      chriscamaroposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I figure it's just one of those human compulsions to want others to hear what you have to say and let them know you disagree because disagreeing leads to debate and debate leads to an opportunity to be right about something or at the very least, to be less wrong than your opponent.  That's why people love punching holes in the arguements of others.  That's how it seems anyway.

  17. pennyofheaven profile image81
    pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago

    Questioning is a good process. Brings to mind the sage that said if you meet Buddha on the road kill him.

 
working