When someone is passionate about a cause, they try to persuade others to join it. Indeed that's often what demonstrates they are passionate about it. So why shouldn't Christians who are passionate about their cause, try to persuade people to join that cause, just like political parties, charities, businesses, environmentalists, advertisers and anyone else with something to promote? And why shouldn't Christians lobby politicians to ensure their interests are considered like any other social group?
Do they want to start burning witches again? Or just make abortions and divorce illegal?
No idea. But whatever is on their agenda, they have to go through the same social mechanisms as anyone else, i.e. public opinion, political process etc. Those mechanisms are also open to those who disagree with the Christian agenda.
A third of them might like your cause, a third of them might not, another third might not care either way. So what is the problem?
It's all the sensationalism that bothers me. Specifically needing to evoke emotion to make a point; it's expected of politicians and marketers, but those fields aren't based off ethics. Sensationalism is used to be logically incosistant or obfuscatory for a point that is not sound enough to be based out of logic alone. It's the difference between an Evangelist (whose preaching i dread) and a Sheperd (whose preaching I admire), as defined here: <link snipped>
Emotion sells. Advertisers learned that long ago. That's why they don't sell you a sports car. They sell you the chance to be a racing driver that you always dreamed of when you were 9.
Sensationalism is also prevalent in politics. I'm guessing you saw the election that just happened, right?
I think it irritates me because Christians pretend to speak for a cosmic power. You read a book and suddenly you are the Metatron, in your own mind.
Unlike your other examples, Christians don't attempt to persuade, they state quite emphatically they are commanded by God to demand you become Christian or else your everlasting soul will burn for an eternity.
Is that really the same thing?
You can'rt generalize that way. It is unrealistically bigoted.
It's nearly the same thing, except religion has more sensationalism. I need to listen to some loving god who has demanded that I follow him, or i'm sentecned to an eternity in hell?
I need to be afraid of what's going to happen, rather than rationally conclude that following God is reasonable.
It's like telling me I need to buy a jacket because i'm scared of not fitting in, versus realizing I need one because it's cold outside.
Sure the message is different, but the techniques are the same. Political parties, advertisers, charities, news media, corporations and other groups all use people's fears, sympathies, aspirations etc. to sell their 'product'. Christianity is no different. Why should Christians be singled out for this behaviour?
Simple, we can find hard evidence to refute or accept anything claimed by political parties, advertisers, etc. There is nothing Christians have other than their good book.
I can't buy that. Claims that can't be substantiated with hard evidence, or even false claims, are often made by one group or another, whether it be political parties, corporations or advertisers. Why does there seem to be less tolerance for Christians making unsubstantiated claims?
Excuse me? You don't accept the fact that if for example, an advertiser claims a product can do something, we can't find hard evidence to know whether or not the product works? Or, if a politician claims they can lower taxes, can we not see hard evidence to the contrary when taxes go up?
What is it you're not buying here?
I'm not buying that the availability of hard evidence is the reason people seem more tolerant of corporations, charities, political parties lobbying, advertising and promoting their messages. I'm wondering why people seem less bothered about insidious messages telling them to buy things they don't need, and more bothered by someone preaching to them about Christianity. Evidence suggests allowing corporations to influence public policy too much for their own interests can be detrimental to society, yet people seem more afraid of the Christian influence on society than the influence of corporations on society. I'm not defending Christian politics, I think church and state should always be separated, but people seem more prejudicial about Christianity influencing society, especially through politics, than other groups. Why is that?
Perhaps, when advertisers and politicians begin banging on our front doors demanding we accept their doctrines or face eternal damnation, folks would probably start becoming more bothered with them than the preaching Christian.
Corporations influencing policies is something altogether different. And, there most certainly are folks who are quite vocal about it, far more than complaining about a preaching Christian.
Just look at the group, Anonymous, as an example.
"Perhaps, when advertisers and politicians begin banging on our front doors demanding we accept their doctrines or face eternal damnation, folks would probably start becoming more bothered with them than the preaching Christian."
The words are different, but the technique is exactly the same. Christians, politicians and advertisers use fear to try to influence others. Why is using the fear of [insert political boogeyman here] to try to influence people, more acceptable than using fear of god? Why is using the fear of [insert social angst that product X eliminates here] to try to influence people, more acceptable than using fear of god?
"Corporations influencing policies is something altogether different. And, there most certainly are folks who are quite vocal about it, far more than complaining about a preaching Christian."
I perceive more negative public discourse about Christianity than about corporate influence on government. That's entirely subjective of course, but I consider myself fairly up to date on current social and political issues.
Fair enough. Although I think it's quite reasonable to say many people (including myself) would be able to name Dawkins and Harris off the top of their head, but might struggle to name two anti-corporate-corruption activists, or any books they've written. This indicates that either many people are poorly read, or that the anti-theism message is 'louder' than the anti-corporate-shenanigans message. Also in the news media, I think the influence corporations play in various public debates, e.g. gun control, is less widely discussed or reported than the role religion plays in various public debates, such as abortion. The methods used by the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church to influence the debate on abortion, are widely reported on while the methods used by foreign corporations like Benelli Corp. and Sig Sauer to influence the gun control debate in the U.S. (their biggest market) go unmentioned; Even though those methods are more influential than anything the WBC could hope to achieve. I think that's a double standard.
That merely indicates ones interest in one topic over another. So what?
Could it be that perhaps the corporation in question has no where near the influence over a huge mass of people compared with Christianity and the rest of the world?
Do you even think for a moment I can accept such a ridiculous comparison? Westboro?
The fact I know the name of Kim Kardashian, doesn't indicate that I have more of an interest in her than others. It indicates that she gets more exposure (so to speak) in the media than others.
It could, but I don't think that's the case. I think corporations and banks now wield much more influence than organised religion. Indeed I think both religion and politics have become tools used to further corporate interests.
You're right it's not a fair comparison. A fairer comparison would be between one of the Christian lobby groups, and a corporation like Binelli. Both spend large amounts of money trying to influence domestic politics and policy. Both have front organisations that obscure the sponsors. Both use fear and intimidation as a tactic to further their cause. Don't see many references to Binelli and its influence in the gun control debate. Seem to be more references to Christian advocacy groups and their influence in public debate. Double standard?
It's not just a "cause".
No, Christians shouldn't lobby like a social group. Christianity is about people's souls, not about simply getting numbers to "join" a social group or political group.
They shouldn't have to lobby anyway. America was built on Christian principles, survives on the concept of repentance and forgiveness (yes, even in our legal and criminal system), and should never be remanded to a "caucus" or some such nonsense as though we're a civil rights group or something.
If our leaders would've continued to do their jobs correctly, standing on those Biblical principles which are echoed by the Constitution, there wouldn't be a problem. We should never fall into the trap of becoming politicized in such a direct fashion, and we won't as long as we recognize the Left's tactics for what they are---------to get us to be just another "cause" or political group is the only way the Left can get us on level playing grounds with their own agenda; they think they can handle us there and tackle us there; and indeed it's started working amongst those of us who fail to see the intent.
Just like the title of this thread........it's a good question! And I can answer it with that same reply as I just did. People get angry about Christians preaching because they don't like to hear the words "repentance" and "forgiveness" etc. They'd much rather keep us on a playing field where they think they can hold us to discussing "rights" and legalities, as though we're just another political group. Fervent honest Christians will always end up speaking at some point about repentance and forgiveness; they will speak about Christ instead of touting a particular Church; they will speak about eternal life versus eternal death instead of just earthly legalities.
Actually our legal system is based on Viking mythology. Thor was thier God of justice, and courts were held on Thorsdays(Thursday to you and me)
Seen a gavel ever? That's Thor's Hammer.
Our wonderful country was started by Masons, not Christians, by the way.
I don't care what props or ways have been incorporated into, or brought from, other influences. The fact is that our laws are based on Biblical laws for the most part. Even our bankruptcy laws echo the laws of debt forgiveness in the Bible. It's called the year of jubilee. Not to mention, even, the Ten Commandments being the basic set of laws that our Nation's laws are based upon.
So, whatever, let the Judges use "Thor's hammer" if that's what they wanna bang down in the name of justice. lol. It matters not. Myths should be good for something, even if it's just entertainment, and even if it's just for special effects. ha.
And the Ten Comandments are based on the Egyptian ten commandments.
Why don't you do a little reseach into history and mythology, you might actually learn something interesting.
There is not one single aspect of Christianity that wasn't taken from another source.
Okay, who are you and what have you done with janesix?
I'm wondering if it was the words "repentance" and "forgiveness" or "Christ" and "eternal life and death" that did it...........
All religions are based on the same thing.
Excep perhaps for islam, I can't figure that one out yet.
No different - it's still about power for a few and using that power to control the rest of the plebes.
Most, if not all, religions have been hijacked and twisted beyond all recognition of the original intent.
The basics are still the same, the true kernals of wisdom are still there, in a disguised form.
I agree that religion is used for control of the masses, but that is never the original intention.
No, they were all twisted beyond recognition from the get go.
Uh, because they're just myths and superstitions based on other myths and superstitions. You said that yourself in another thread. Or, was that you?
I said Christianity was based on other myths.
All myths and religions have the same core truths.
What lies would those be, and who is doing the lying?
Brenda, it seems that you vision a past utopia and yearn for a future one where Christians and Christian doctrine derived policies determine the path of America. Although I believe in Jesus, I can think of nothing worse than the Church being involved in politics or the running of a country. History tells us religious politics only leads to suppression of truth, freedom of speech, the rights of the individual to self determination, and a brake on scientific and technological progress.
How do you suppose that believers like myself who refuse to accept Christian manmade doctrines will be treated? You already call people like me who reject trinity doctrines and the existence of satan, demons and hell heretics. Under your your utopia, would I be arrested and put in prison?
Whether you consider it to be more than just a cause or not, the point is that Christian groups use the same techniques as advertisers, political parties, charities and corporations to deliver their message and persuade others. Whether you think they should or not, the fact is that Christian groups are lobbying, advertising, publicising and promoting Christianity. My question is, why do people get angry at Christians for preaching and lobbying, but don't seem so angry about corporations, political parties etc. doing the same. Is that a double standard?
Yes, it's a double standard.
But as I said, we shouldn't have to lobby and all that. But I stand by the right of Christians to do so! I just think there's a danger of Christians becoming and being seen as JUST a part of a political group.
It's kinda like my view on the law that people can get a tax break on giving to charity and tithing. ....If you're gonna give, give, but don't do it for the purpose of nor the expectation of, getting a deduction on your taxes! That's how I see it. Churches can become way too business-like and get deterred from the real reason they exist----to preach the Gospel.
Some Christians spend a lot of time on their causes. I understand their passion for Jesus. How would they feel if I have the same causes and passion for the Goddess I follow. Woulld they listen without complain? Would they wish me to shut-up? The Christian truth is not mine. I though am not made to get people to listen to me and believe. The Goddess is not an immature god who needs people to follow. Goddess, as did Jesus preached love your neighbor. Love is the answer. So Christianity makes no sense to me. Jesus said love is the answer, so why would he toss very good people into hell?
..and please dont tell me it is in the bible. I dont really want an answer, since I have heard them all. I just stopped by to answer your question.
When people advocate in a way that harasses me or endangers my interested I do tend to get energized about it. This is not specific to those who do so for religious reasons. But very few people do so for non-religious readers.
Clean coal or safe nuclear power, for example, is to my mind dangerous nonsense--but their advocates don't knock on my door, call me, tell me solar power is sinful or that they are the one true energy.
Yet, you will be harmed by their passionate cause.
(Quick, go to edit "harasses me or endangers my interested." before time runs out. Your translation program let you down.)
"Clean coal or safe nuclear power, for example, is to my mind dangerous nonsense--but their advocates don't knock on my door, call me, tell me solar power is sinful or that they are the one true energy."
Political parties do all those things. Charities do too, to an extent (ever been stopped in the street by a charity mugger?). Corporations certainly evangelise. Apple would have you believe that the iPad is the one and only electronic tablet worth buying. All others are (literally) pale imitations. So why should Christians be singled out for this behaviour?
While attending a local festival Christians lined the streets screaming scripture, carrying signs saying homosexuals would burn forever and spouting nonsense about how parents should disown their children if they turn away from God. My children were subject to this. I had to explain to my children that the great thing about the USA is that even idiots have the right to free speech.
Christian preaching often teaches to hate, to disciminate, to dislike and treat people badly simply because they live different. That is what angers me not the fact they want to preach, but the fact they use their preaching to hold down or look down on others. I have nothing wrong with anyone who believes they don't have to look down on others to feel like they are doing right by their own beliefs.
I am passionate about my beliefs, however I do not go out in the streets screaming believers are idiots or put a sign in my yard saying God is like Santa.
I hear you. Please, don't get the lunatic fringe confused with those who love you.
I do my best not to since I am married to a Christian, however far to many of the lunatic fringe exist here in the south of USA.
I don't get angry when Christians preach, but I get annoyed when they keep going after I tell them I'm not interested.
What upsets me more than anything is the hypocrisy. A Christian will tell you that they do not judge, but isn't it judgment when they will tell you that your beliefs are wrong? I try to live a life where I don't hurt or steal from anyone. I am a moral individual, yet according to the Christians I have encountered, I will be going to Hell because I am a Pagan, however, the mass murderer who accepts Jesus just before being put to death will be going to Heaven and all its rewards. It makes no sense to me.
I believe there is a higher power, but is that higher power the God of Abraham in the Bible? I don't believe so. I believe that all gods exist and watch over us. Even the Bible acknowledges there are other gods..."Put no other gods before me". But, the Bible is a book. It's not fact. Sure, there are some historical facts in it, but there are historical facts in all books of mythology.
When it comes to religion, Christianity is the new kid on the block. If you read up on the gods of ancient Egypt, you will see that Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead. Osiris did that long before Jesus. Christianity is a mixture of earlier religions, including the "borrowing" of Pagan holidays like Yule and Ostera.
I do not judge those who believe differently than I and I don't expect to be judged for my beliefs by others. We need to realize that we are all different and if no one is hurt by another, it should be live and let live.
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