I recently came across a site while doing a little research for a comment I was making in another forum and I was wondering if claiming that dinosaurs did in fact live during the last 6 thousand years along side humans constitutes lying for Jesus? I'm not sure I should even link to the site because I'd hate to attract more people to it.
It is a lie only in that it is untrue and false to fact.
People make mistakes all the time, but that doesn't make them liars. That the site publishes such drivel is most likely a mistake, albeit one directly caused by using belief rather than study and thought. Sad and pitiful that people post such things, but it's why little on the web is to be believed.
Isn't it a lie to try to convince someone or peoples of something that has been proven false by using lies about evidence?
If the person making the statement believes it is true, it is not a lie.
Yes. It requires intent to be considered a lie along with all the negativity that that carries with it.
Although I personally think that many of the church bigwigs and VIP's are lying through their teeth in giving their "message", the man in the street is not. He is giving testimony and advice to the best of his ability, no matter how wrong it is and not intentionally lying.
I'm not sure that the 'bigwigs' are lying as they believe these things to be true themselves. Of course the name it and claim it types are lying of course.
What are the name it and claim it types?
Do you really think the 'bigwigs' think that all this evidence for an old earth (4.5 billion years) is fabricated and the evidence for a 6,000 year old earth is strong? Or do you think they will just say anything to further their cause and assume people are gullible.
Name it and claim it types are those that peddle the prosperity gospel, most TV evangelists would fit this. They believe that as "the King's kids" they are entitled to the riches of heaven on Earth, which translates to naming a big house, car, jet plane, they claim it in the name of Jesus, and if they believe hard enough and give enough to these prosperity ministries, God will give them said house, ca, jet plane.
But yes after being in churches for 25 years, I firmly believe that unless stated otherwise, these bigwigs do absolutely firmly believe in a literal 6 day creation, 6000 year old Earth, and that the Flintstones is a documentary.
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. There can be precious little evidence, but I find it unbelievable that those in the seats of church power believe at all.
No one achieves that level of power and money be believing in fantasies and myths.
I think for the most part they really do believe it. It is possible if you remain deliberately ignorant of a anything that might make you uncomfortable.
True, and it is possible. I just look at the life they lead and don't believe that they can actually believe while at the same time ignoring it in their everyday life.
I've known preachers (or whatever the local church calls them) and most do seem to believe and lead a "good" life according to those beliefs. It's not those that I reference; it is those far above them. The leaders behind the scenes. The TV evangelists. That sort of thing.
Agreed. If the televangelist believed the stuff they say there'd be less fallen televangelists. Most claim to speak directly to God, but cry when they get caught with a prostitute. Makes one think they don't by there own stuff. You'd think God would warn a prophet not to get caught like that.
Then theres's the little matter of the Pope needing so may lawyers? If the Pope thinks he's infallible, why need diplomatic immunity and a string of lawyers?
I was reading some research recently that showed those who most strongly believe they are moral, are most likely to carry out and explain away hypocritical actions. The gist was that those who are less certain of their noble character are more critical of themselves and and more careful about what they do.
An old school friend of mine is a hard core creationist who thinks I've sold out to Satan because I believe in a theist driven evolution (as opposed to a pure chance evolution). And before you ask, no I don't think intelligent design is a valid philosophy. Anyway, he went to bible college for a number of years and it appears that creationism was certainly a central tenet. Thus while some churches may grant their members freedom of conscience in this area (Catholics and Anglicans), other organisations are absolutely creationist.
Fair enough if he actually believes the lies himself.
"The biblical account of dinosaur and human coexistence is strongly supported by historical, textual, observational, and logical evidence. Although the ruling evolutionary paradigm continues to perpetuate the myth of dinosaur supremacy during the so-called ‘age of dinosaurs’, it simply does not fit the available data—in stark contrast to the biblical account of history."
Isn't "strongly supported by historical, textual, observational, and logical evidence" an outright lie?
I have met people with sufficient tunnel vision that they think this is a true statement. They seem sincere. They just happened looked at the full scope of the evidence and so don't realize what a ludicrous claim it is. It is similar to the people whop think dragons are real or aliens built the pyramids. They distort the data set to get it to match their beliefs.
No. All you have to do is carefully pick and choose what evidence you choose to believe and include in coming to your conclusion.
Given that that is exactly what is done with the vast majority of the bible itself, it's also what can be expected in "examining" other evidence as well.
So the question is whether or not he believes his own nonsense.
Yes, they are lying. There is no information anywhere to even remotely suggest dinosaurs existed six thousand years ago, but plenty of information showing they went extinct millions of years ago. They would therefore have to fabricate a lie in order to support the indoctrination and the evidence for dinosaurs at the same time. Certainly, those who propagate this lie know for a fact the evidence states clearly dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago.
I still think most people find it easier to delude themselves than to outright knowingly lie. Especially if their scientific education has been poor to completely absent, and they live in a cultural monoculture and don't travel much.
I think you said it yourself that they knowingly lie...
We're talking about the US here, aren't we? Hence, we would have to show that the same folks who propagate this nonsense were in fact not able to learn that dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago, even though it's taught in elementary schools as part of the standard curriculum.
So? Little Johnny goes to school and learns the dinosaurs died millions of years ago.
He goes home and tells Mama, who informs him that that is a lie; God put them there when he put Adam there. His pastor, using the bible (Truth with a capital T) says the same thing, explaining that the myth of dinosaur extinction comes from the Godless atheists who are trying to get Johnny into hell. His sunday school classmates and teacher say the same.
Who will Johnny believe?
Later, in high school, the same lie is presented again through the works of Satan, still working to get Johnny into Hell. He checks the web and finds hundreds of sites, good God fearing people, who tell him yet again that such stories are just those terrible Godless atheists trying to hurt him; that Truth comes from the bible. His parents, pastor and friends deride him and tell him Satan is after him should he question the bible.
Johnny doesn't want to go to Hell - what would you expect him to conclude is actually true? True words of the bible, explained correctly by his God fearing pastor or the words of the Godless, already known to be false?
What a horrible story, but it continues as such. Johnny grows up and does a bunch of research on the matter before be builds a website declaring all evidence support dinosaurs were around 6,000 years ago. After all the research and growing up does he actually believe the nonsense or is there a small part that is questioning, but still spouts out the lies?
There probably is a small part that is questioning, but those evil questions are shouted down repeatedly and become smaller and smaller. Eventually Johnny learns to ignore, to "close his ears" when such subjects are even discussed. All Truth comes from God, not Godless scientists driven by Satan whose only goal is to discredit the word of God, and he must never listen to such things or his immortal soul is in danger.
Sorry, but the Pastor is not able to use the Bible to show dinosaurs were a myth in that they went extinct, unless you can show us those passages?
Genesis says everything was put here in 7 days. Not millions of years, 7 days. Unless the conclusion is that Satan put aged bones in the ground (a tale I've actually heard) it becomes quite apparent that man and dinosaur existed at the same time. Oh, I also hear that the 7 days is actually an indefinite period; that the words of the bible are not true. Obviously just more lies from the Godless atheists that want poor Johnny in Hell.
But the pastor doesn't even need that; he is "enlightened" by God and speaking His truth. The pastor is infallible (at Johnny's age, anyway) and always tells the Truth, no matter what the words might be.
Sure, but that doesn't show anything about dinosaurs. Of course, how many arguments from believers do we hear that a day was not a day?
Still, the facts regarding dinosaurs are there for all to see, including the Pastor, who is therefore feeding a lie to little Johnny. The Pastor, as an adult would certainly have known that dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago, whether he chooses to accept that or not.
You are grossly underestimating the power of want, fear and desire to believe. Man can and does rationalize whatever he wants to into perceived truth, and fear of the soul is a powerful motivation.
The facts are certainly there for all to see, but only if the eyes are open and the brain accepting. How many times have you heard that C14 dating is not reliable - has no bearing on actual age? How many times has someone basically said "I don't understand geology and don't believe anyone else can date from it, either"? How many times have you seen the claim that science is only there to prove the bible wrong; that that is the ultimate goal of all knowledge and study?
To the believer Truth is whatever agrees with preformed beliefs. Facts and knowledge cannot and must not be allowed to discredit that belief. Outright lies (dinosaurs and man coexisted) are accepted because it agrees with belief, and any actual evidence to the contrary is shouted down; a loud voice is all that is necessary to provide Truth. The fear of death and/or hell is far stronger than any desire for actual knowledge.
I remember once being told that dinosaurs were put there by Satan to temp believers. They certainly do have a way of making people think to even question is a tempt from Satan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Qa … ;vq=medium
This is really a difficult dilemma for me. I've heard many many times in these forums that radio-carbon and other methods of dating mater are flawed, and I believe the sheep believe the lies given to them by the shepherd. But I think the shepherd is purposely deceiving his sheep. There is a lie somewhere.
Rad Man, you think about God and religion quite a bit. More than normal, it appears.
Why do you think that is?
Because it's an interesting subject that has profound effects on human culture?
Thank you, Rad Man.
But I think you are deluding yourself. I think God is calling to you and you don't want to listen.
I think you're deluding yourself. I puzzled as to why people cling to this fairy tale and even more puzzled as to why women would adhere to such sexist religions. Ever wonder for example why women drag the family to a Catholic church that teaches that women are not at all equal to men?
I am not deluding myself. I am searching for the truth,as always. Just because I believe in Christ doesn't mean I believe in the Bible. I only believe what I get from experience. Everything else is an interpretation of experience by humans. Jesus is real, but only as an interpretaion of the process of revelation.
But it does mean you interject this subject into a thread about whether someone could really believe people live in a time of dinosaurs.
You seem to be having problems staying focused. First you interrupt a conversation about people lying for Jesus with a claim that I'm deluding myself and then start going on about how Jesus is real and that belief has nothing to do with the bible, which is again another ridiculous statement because without the bible no one would know anything about this so called person that may or may not have existed 2000 years ago.
Interrupting a conversation? You are silly, this is an Internet forum.
Jesus is a metaphor. Same thing as the Buddha, Mythras, or the hundreds of other Christ figures in mythology. It's all based on same thing. Real experiences of the process of spiritual transformation.
Start a new thread to discuss a new topic. That is forum 101.
I was providing information as to why forums are like conversations--and hence why your conduct strikes some people as confusing or uncivil. I am not your mother so I am not telling you what to do. Do with that information as you will.
Forum 101 : Don't answer questions meant for other people.
THANK YOU, RAD MAN. The things that some people do and the games people play in the name of "religion". So sad.
I think that is a bizarre and unsupported claim.
Because it's an interesting subject that has profound effects on human culture? So perfectly spoken I couldn't change a word. Thanks psycheskinner.
hmmm...well I know some evangelist's that bring in science magazines and compare to them to the bible so of course people create their realities either in the name of Jesus or not Jesus. Guess it's just really what is your reality vs. someone else's reality. We become aware of things all the time what people say to us, and find out it's not truth! So of course perhaps they just are not aware of the truth, so it depends on whether they know it is a lie and purposely share the information, or they are just not aware of the truth!
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