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The UNBELIEF in God Has Caused More Problems Than It Has Solved!

  1. blcurry profile image62
    blcurryposted 3 years ago

    Mark 6:1-6 says,
    "Then He (Jesus) went out from there and came to His own country, and His disciples followed Him. 2 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, “Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! 3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

    4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching."

    Matthew 22:37-40
    37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

    I think if people BELIEVED it and LIVED it, the world would be a better place....Just sayin.....

    1. LisaMarie724 profile image84
      LisaMarie724posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Amen.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I second that.  smile

        1. Paul Wingert profile image79
          Paul Wingertposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          roll

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If everyone loved everyone else as themselves then the world would be a better place.

      However I don't believe that believing in the Christian God is necessary for that to happen... nor do I believe that loving a Christian God above all else in any way leads to the world being a better place. 

      Every major religion (and most minor ones) throw in the love others line.  It's awesome advice... however it doe not require Christian belief to follow.

      So I don't understand how the Love God thing is relevant.  Walk me through that one.

      1. Renee Abbott profile image84
        Renee Abbottposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with you. Christianity doesn't own all rights to love, especially since it is the common thread of all religions.
        I do not belief either religion or no religion makes the world a better place. It is people that do, and many people of no-religion or other religions besides Christianity make this as great as a world as some Christians. I think a lot of the problem is people shoving their beliefs down others. They must be insecure in their beliefs of religion or not having one.  If we stop fighting amongst ourselves as having the 'true' religon our would would see an improvement. All religions and those without a belief in God still hold to one common thread...love each other. So, maybe one day people will stop hating each other, and seize from shoving their beliefs down another. It is rude and senseless, if you really believe in love.

        1. UnknownAuthor72 profile image59
          UnknownAuthor72posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Where did I read "God is love"?  And if you don't believe in God than how can you know what love is?  And shoving your words down someone's throat doesn't show love either. I think it has to do with showing by example in everything that person does with their own personal life choices. smile

          Interesting subject. thank you

    3. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I don't see how the first passage would make any difference in the world, at all. Except to stop a percentage of religious violence. The second passage could make a difference worldwide. Since the command is twofold. But, if Christians can't follow those simple instructions why blame the world's problems on the nonbelievers?

    4. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      90% of people think of believe in God in this world now.

      How can we test this theory, unless 90% of our world are or were ever Atheists or non - believers?

      Science was already proven it's wroth since 90% of professional scientist are Atheist or non believers. Life expectancy has doubled and triples since Darwin brought evolution to our minds in the mid 1800s.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Even if that happens to be true, it does not logically follow that Life expectancy has doubled and tripled because Darwin brought evolution to our minds in the mid 1800s

        So how does your statement help the discussion?

        Just curious, that's all.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image22
          Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Since the biblical times and Jesus, life expectancy has not changed much.
          For example from age 21 to max age of 40 average anywhere in the world since 2000 years ago

          In Canada, just a hundred years ago, Christian made up 98% of our population, Today it's about 60% Christians. About 90% of the people in this world think or believe Evolution exist.
          Darwin was most renowned for opening minds to evolution.  Jesus 33% of the WORLD'S POPULATION, has been a Champion of soul taking and of all other Religions. Christian discredited all other Religions of being of the same God.

          It’s seem sports and Evolution get along well enough and they help bring the world together better.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this



            Well, when was the last time you heard of a stampede at a revival? Sports arenas have them off and on. I believe the Canadians went ballistic recently at the end of a sporting event and rioted in the streets. I'm not aware of the Christians in Canada doing the same.

            I don't know the last time I had a discussion about evolution at half time. And, I would venture to guess that if you asked a Nascar enthusiast about evolution they would think you were talking about some Bud beer mutating into light. Discussing the pros and cons; unsure if it was a benificial mutation.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image22
              Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Sports related deaths I can't imagine would add up anywhere closed to Religious related death involved in wars, death sentences to gays or drugs relates and many other crimes laws that hardly match the crime.

              I was in the middle of those Hockey riot in Vancouver when over 100 people attacked me and escaped. I think about two were killed Hardly compare to a million people killed in Iraq the mix war of religion and greed.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                But I still don't see where evolution and sports go hand in hand. That to the side, if you want to blame violence on religion, that is your choice. I just think it is wrong. People use religion as an excuse. Muslim extremists come to mind. But, is religion really the driving force? If so, why aren't all Muslims equipped with bombs strapped to their mid sections? Why aren't all Christians lurking outside of abortion clinics with guns; waiting to kill the doctors?

                Believers use religion to support their petty narrow minded agenda. Atheists use religion to support their petty narrow minded agendas. Yes, religion is part of the problem. It is not the problem and the problem will live on whether religion exists or not.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  what "petty, narrow-minded agendas" do all atheists have?  Just curious.  I think I missed the manifesto.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Why do you insist on adding 'all' to that comment. You keep replying to posts I make to others and convert them in order to take them personally. Why is that?

                2. Chris Neal profile image82
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Amen! I've been saying the same thing for a long time!

    5. 61
      spencecposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Verse 3 sound like the way people think. They look at the outside, but not what is in a person's heart.

    6. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'm trying to figure out what these specific scriptures have to do with the title of this forum post. The scripture at the end is a good one, but I'm missing the correlation

    7. LewSethics profile image62
      LewSethicsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      not too many atheists are out there blowing people up or burning them at the stake

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        True, but neither are the Christians who practice for themselves instead of as part of a collective organizational doctrine. Organized Christians have persecuted their own for not following their belief structure as well.

      2. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Out of curiosity, how many Christians are doing that? Just a ball park figure. I don't need exact numbers. Because I'm coming up with a number like...none.

        1. LewSethics profile image62
          LewSethicsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          well, for starters, christians in general believe that non believers will burn for eternity in hell.  that is now.  that always was. 
          more specifically the ethnic cleansing in eastern europe in recent years (think serbs, croations, etc) had christians and muslims systematically killing each other (and non believers).  That is still happening.  or don't those people count?

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ethnic cleansing isn't necessarily caused by religion. If it was, they'd call it religious cleansing.

            I'm not attempting to defend religion here. But these trite comments serve little purpose.  If you go there, then you open the door to discussions about mass murder by atheistic regimes. I'd say they killed more than anything we could attribute to the religious in our time.

            An atheist doesn't associate his philosophy with that of Mao, Stalin or Pol Pot, so it isn't fair to attempt to associate the philosophy of the garden variety Christian to regional violence which can be attributed to multiple causes. Outside of state violence and regional strife...please give me  a ballpark figure of Christians burning people at the stake, or blowing them up.

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Let's talk about "In general"

            You do realize that only 71% of Christians believe that hell even exists. Of that 71% only 32% believe it is an actual place of torment and suffering. So basically 1/3 of 3/4 of Christians believe that.  Hardly Christians "in general"

            In fact the correct statement would be Christians in general don't believe that non-believers will burn for eternity in hell.  Which is kind of the opposite of what you said.

            1. LewSethics profile image62
              LewSethicsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              haha, that's good.  I do know that 93% (or is it 79%) of statistics are made up on the spot for the purpose of 'proving' a point.  I think you fall into that 93 (79) %.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this
                1. LewSethics profile image62
                  LewSethicsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I generally don't use internet articles a source of information, but I looked at the article you mentioned.  It's interesting, but I hardly think a sampling of 1000 people (the word random was never used) is hard enough evidence of those numbers.
                  What I also found interesting is that the 'barna group' describes itself as, and I pasted directly the first line of their website: Serving the information needs of the church by offering statistics, resources, seminars and custom research on current cultural and spiritual trends.
                  A little self serving, wot?

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    "The data described in this report are based on national telephone surveys among random samples of 1000 or more adults (age 18 or older) living within the 48 continental states"



                    Actually it's an evangelical Christian research firm.  The idea of a literal hell is a largely evangelical christian idea.  If they were going to be biased it should have been it the opposite direction.

                    So tell me... If you generally don't use internet articles as a source of information then where did you get your information about what Christians- in general - believe?

    8. Otto Krog profile image60
      Otto Krogposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I think you are so right

    9. CosmosDiver profile image61
      CosmosDiverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      First, it's "disbelief", not "unbelief", and what kind of problems are we talking about here? The world is in a much lovelier place with less of that God BS hanging around.

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This post was meant to be an answer to another post regarding how the belief in God has caused problems, But It appears to have missed the mark a little

        1. blcurry profile image62
          blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It was not meant to be an answer.  It was meant, as I listed before, to be the "other side of the coin". And after so far recieving 247 posts in 7 days, it obviously has generated much thought about both issues.  Consider the mark obliterated.  Who knows what some may grasp from this forum.  Hopefully it will bring glory to God in some way, form or fashion and simultaneously get some to consider  what Jesus said and how he lived and to ultimatley come to a place of faith in God.  Apparently, Deepes, again, you my friend have missed the mark.  I will keep you and others as well in my prayers. 

          2 Timothy 3:16-17
          New King James Version (NKJV)
          16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

          Be blessed!

          1. jacharless profile image80
            jacharlessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Problem, Mr Curry, with that excerpt from a 2,000 year old dialogue between the former vice president and assistant chancellor of the Sanhedrin, being Saul of Tarsus half Roman citizen / half Lawful Hebrew, murderer of thousands, political heavyweight, ambitious enough to change history and a young, impressionable student named Timothy is the use of the verbiage. "Scripture" to a Lawful Hebrew is strictly and only Mosaic Law, Songs of King David and Wisdom {Proverbs}. So, when a 21st century believer in the Restoration makes the statement "All Scripture..." to form a  stance on the necessity of textual conformity, and the validity of its context, they are essentially causing conflict and forcing doctrine/rules upon others that were written for one mans eyes. Another word for such enforcement is called jihad -a term credited to none other than Saul of Tarsus. Interesting coincidence, no?

            Also, do not forget, the "Gospel of Peace" and "Scripture" are NOT the same thing. Every milker knows this. Those who eat meat, are the ones bringing that gospel to others. Because it fattens them up with joy, life and every good thing -as it does those who partake of it. Those who practice "Scripture" are thin, frail, shaking with fear, bound to the altar, and will be (not could be or might be or should be, no no --). They will be sacrificed. All sacrifice ends in death. That is the purpose of it: to let the blood flow that the sin may bleed out...

            James.

            1. blcurry profile image62
              blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Another response that misses the mark. At the  time the scripture listed above in Timothy was written Saul of Tarsus had been transformed into the Apostle Paul.   Big difference.  I normally don't even indulge in such foolishness but the absurdity of some of these responses demand an answer. Going forward, due to all of the responses that I have previously listed in this particular forum, which more than answer any previous comments and more than likely any future ones as well,  my answer will simply be ....silence.  I was only posting food for thought not a pretense for argument or debate although anymore any form of thought on the subject of God or Jesus brings about heated arguments or debates, mostly from those who say they don't believe.....Go figure.

              Acts 9
              New King James Version (NKJV)
              The Damascus Road: Saul Converted

              9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

              3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

              5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

              Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

              6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
              Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

              Be blessed!

              1. jacharless profile image80
                jacharlessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Do yourself a favor: come at me with more than a bible and gonads of a goat herder, please.
                I have ministered the bible on three continents for nearly half my life, until my "Damascus Road" when it was revealed how much of a pagan {you know, Christian} I had become -worshiping books, fearing false entities called demons and serving ba`al magistrates {literally translated "God" or "gods"}. And how I had taught thousands upon thousands of people -day in and day out- the Law of Sin and Death. Page by page, line by line, precept upon precept. Every day I filled them to the full and they ate it like kings. I was worse than Saul: at least he was a straight up, sword to the neck murderer. Me, I was killing people in the name of  'god' too, with the very "Scripture" he set them free from. I taught them paganism. I taught them fear and obedience in the name of "love".

                "Transformed?" Ha! You actually believe that? That he, who was on his way to Syria, to finalize his mission against the "Believing Sect/The Way" suddenly had a "moment" and became all goodie-goodie? You do know history records Saul is responsible for the establishment of what is presently known a Islam? Do you also know he is responsible for Peter, John and James` death because he forced them to go with him to Rome? Why did Saul want to go to Rome? Do you remember? Because the Israeli's were going to kill him? Nope. Try he wanted to convince Rome to conform to "Lawful Judaism" and using this "Way" was a perfect avenue. His people would then be free from centuries of oppression and he would become the ruler of a new Sanhedrin: The church of Rome....      There is so much I could teach you, but what's the point.

                Study,  Mr Curry, to shew yourself approved. Because right now, you're a workman who should be ashamed. Just saying. Anyway, no insult intended, but as the "good book" says: never muzzle an ox while it treads the field, so I won't muzzle you. Keep treading that field brother. At some point, your hooves will kill everything in it, with that "gospel of peace"...

                1. blcurry profile image62
                  blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You have, again, proven my points fantasticly.  Thanks!

                  1. jacharless profile image80
                    jacharlessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Really, now.
                    Show me, precisely, what "points" I have "fantastically" proven on your behalf. Slight of hand, bible bites are not points, they are Memorex® vomit from a forgetful mind -but still, a heart [I feel] desires to understand. It is because of the later that I even engage the conversation and shall continue to. Same as I engage every other pagan, atheist, scientist, etc. As I told someone a while back, I speak to people in a language they understand. To do otherwise is not only insulting, it is rude and demeaning -plus it lacks true love, fortitude and character. smile So, that said, show me these points -and do be specific, not dodgy or piled more bible verses. Thanks.
                    James.

    10. MissJamieD profile image80
      MissJamieDposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I couldn't agree with you more! In fact recently on Facebook I made a post about the fact that if we taught about God in school, there would be less crime, less hatred, less war, less drug use, less adultry, less abuse, less homelessness, and less evil.

      It's pretty sad that nowdays a persons first encounter with God/Jesus is in prison when they're left with no other choices. They [more than likely] wouldn't be in that position if they'd believed in God first.

      1. Codester0391 profile image61
        Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this
      2. Castlepaloma profile image22
        Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I did some work in Sheboygan, Wisconsin
        Per capita Sheboygan had the most bars and Churches than anywhere in America, I assume to wash their sins away. Also, eating too much Cheese is worst then smoking, which smoking is worst killer than all drugs combined and legal every where in the world wail pure pot is illlegal everywhere in the world and has no concrete proof it has killed anyone.

        Just more example of Christian brainwashing like God in school, there would be less crime, less hatred, less war, less drug use, less adultery, less abuse, less homelessness, and less evil.  America is more Sodom and Gomorrah like than any where else in the World.

  2. 61
    NWO Agenda 21posted 3 years ago

    Yes it would be a better place if everyone lived by the word of Jesus and God, but the goal of Satan is to convince the world he doesn't exist, and his followers are working hard at doing so it's all part of the NWO Agenda 21.  It's our job as watchmen to warn.

    1. shofarcall profile image60
      shofarcallposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I second that it is our job as watchmen to warn.

    2. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/cazabella/Movie/main.jpg

      1. bBerean profile image59
        bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Getitrite, I find your endorsementof NWO, by associating him with the Disney version, where Chicken Little had good reason to be concerned about upcoming events and by his warning helped save the town, to be touching.  Normally your posts are negative, demeaning and dismissive.  Good to see you taking a more positive course in the new year.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image22
          Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

    3. 0
      oceansiderposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, you are right, I agree with you.

      1. 0
        oceansiderposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I realized, that in my reply of 15 hrs ago, where I said ....Yes, you are right, I agree with you....I did not state who I was responding to....I was addressing NWO Agenda.

  3. 0
    Aleister888posted 3 years ago

    Interesting point of view, i do think that while un-questioning beleif in anything in particular is dangerous, you are right that modern day society is lacking in morals and wisdom, smile

  4. 61
    NWO Agenda 21posted 3 years ago

    I don't have an un-questioning beleif in anything, I question everything and research it to the fullest.  I also happen to have had experiences with paranormal and near death.

  5. 61
    NWO Agenda 21posted 3 years ago

    smile

  6. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    Religion and atheism-basing threads are equally boring.

    1. gmwilliams profile image85
      gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,.000,000!
      http://s2.hubimg.com/u/7592573_f248.jpg

  7. wilderness profile image95
    wildernessposted 3 years ago

    Interesting OP.  If you're looking for some "amen's", backslapping and "right on's" with little else to contribute you started well.

    If, on the other hand, you were looking for reasoned responses from non-believers as to why they might disagree, a selection of quotations from a book of fantasy directing everyone to love an imaginary and fictional book character more than they love their wife and kids probably isn't going to accomplish much except derision.

    Learning to speak the language of the listener is important; without it you will never get much response.  At least response that makes much sense.

    1. blcurry profile image62
      blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Actually this was in response to a post that said, "The belief in God has caused more problems than it's solved.."

      Cheers

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Oh... so it's a "Do unto others as you'd have done to you" kinda thing?

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Well, it certainly isn't a "turn the other cheek" kinda thing.

          Truthfully it looks more like a "na na boo boo" kinda thing.

        2. A Driveby Quipper profile image60
          A Driveby Quipperposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Did you ride your bike, or bring your lunch today?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You know I've gotten used to your STATEMENTS not making any sense.  Now your questions don't.

            Let me try...

            Did you wear your socks on your feet or your hands today?

  8. blcurry profile image62
    blcurryposted 3 years ago

    No. It's the other side of the coin.  Psalm 12:2 says,
    Everyone lies to their neighbor; they flatter with their lips but harbor deception in their hearts.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      And the Book of the FSM says "no one listens or, if they chance to, are incapable of true learning".

      Additional quoting of the fantasy book makes it plain that you either didn't listen or didn't learn.  Can you possibly have any idea of what your quoting that book is actually saying to someone that recognizes it for the fantasy it is?

      1. blcurry profile image62
        blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It's amazing how a post about God and loving your neighbor can evoke so many petty, bitter, and disdainful responses. But a post that says the opposite of mine is applauded. No wonder America is where it is today.... Food for thought.... You all have proved my point and the scripture in fantastic form and fashion! Thanks for your posts!

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The point I made... that you ignored... is that you don't have to love God to love your neighbor.

          You have just lumped them together...

          No one is saying you shouldn't love your neighbor.

          Debate fairly or don't debate at all.  I'm a Christian and I can't stand mindless quoting of scripture. It makes all of us look brainwashed.

          So... AGAIN... why does one have to love a Christian God to love their neighbor.

          Take all the time you need.

          Then the other question I asked was how will loving the Christian God make the world a better place? 

          Take all the time you need on that one too.

          But don't quote scripture at me... I own several Bibles. If I wanted to read scripture I'd reach over and grab one.

        2. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You have, for the third time, ignored the point.  Quoting scripture to a non believer is about as useful as spitting into the wind.  The only thing it tells the non-believer is that you have no thoughts of your own - that you prefer to fall back on quotes from a nonsense book written thousands of years ago that is of no value today.

          The problem isn't particularly that the bible has nothing of value - it does - it is that non-believers aren't going to be interested in quotes from it.  If you want reasoned responses, speak from a factual, evidential basis rather from a faith that non-believers don't share.

          If you want to discuss that not believing the bible causes trouble, present some facts, some evidence or at a bare minimum some original thoughts that such a concept might be true.  Don't simply quote passages that have nothing to do with lack of belief causing trouble in society.

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And this is why I love you.  And love talking to you. smile

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              sad  And I missed your post.  Oh well, another day and time, Motown.  I, too - at least you mostly seem to understand what I have to say whether you agree or not.  Although that might indicate your brain is as twisted and deformed as my own - probably a bad thing overall. smile

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                My brain is pretty twisted...lol  But I'm good with that. 

                Whether we agree or not, we do think alike on many things.  And when we don't, we both take the time to try to understand where the other is coming from.  Too few people do that.

        3. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps if you tried reading the bible instead of preaching it? Perhaps if you actually showed this love you claim to hold for your neighbor? IDK? Maybe? What do you think?

          From my perspective - as usual for a self professed Christian - all you seem to be doing is telling people what you think they should be doing and not demonstrating it yourself. Pretty sure there is something in your majick book about that. wink

          America is where? You would prefer the old days of slavery or segregation? Weird.

        4. Renee Abbott profile image84
          Renee Abbottposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think instead of pointing fingers at non-believer in Jesus, which is what you are doing, walk the path of Jesus. He was not a negative person. He practice loving everyone. He would not have started a thread, thumping people on the head because they were not Christians, after all he died a Jew.

          1. Chris Neal profile image82
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            True, but He would most certainly have told people that they need to follow Him, which is what He did.

          2. blcurry profile image62
            blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I wasn't pointing fingers. I sated the facts.  Scroll up. read EVERYTHING closely and see for yourself....That's the other thing they do, blame the messenger....lol You all have missed the point of the post entirely and taken it completely out of the context  and went way out in left field....WOW.

            1. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              if "believers" can't even get along and agree on which methods should be used how do you expect non believers to fall in line.  I think Renee was simply trying to point out that Jesus would be the last person to try to force belief in him down other's throats.  If anyone was capable of pointing fingers and casting blame, he would be - but he didn't.  Why do belivers not follow his example more closely then?

              1. Chris Neal profile image82
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Where do you get that? In one sense that's true, He didn't force belief in Him down other's throats. But He made pretty clear that failing to follow Him would lead to an unpleasant afterlife.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Interesting. "Believe in Me or suffer eternal pain," is not forcing it down people's throats?

                  Lets talk about suspending intelligent thought again shall we? wink

                  1. Chris Neal profile image82
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It depends. Is it true or not? If it's true, then all the posturing in the world makes little difference.

                    And if it's false, then all the posturing in the world doesn't improve anything, now does it?

                2. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  yes he did - but he had the power to overthrow the romans and "force" the jewish people to follow him - and he didn't.  The "unpleasant" afterlife is simply the reason why the new testament is even more immoral than the old testament.  The doctrine of eternal hell is one of the most manipulative, emotional appeals to humanity ever in existence.  Hell didn't exist in the old testament.  Sheol did.  Jesus added fire and torture and eternity.  How loving and accepting of him. 

                  In fact, and I could be wrong, but I think christianity is the ONLY religion that preaches eternal torture for disbelief.  Most if not all of the other "hell" doctrines in other faiths are temporary except for the very, very worst.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image82
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I'll have to look up that second part, I'll admit I've always been under the impression  that the Muslim concepts of punishment for unbelievers was similar to Christian in that it was eternal, but now that I think about it I could be wrong.

                    Two points that a lot of people miss about your first paragraph. 1) If God does exist, and He really is the all powerful Creator of the universe, then all the statements about immorality on His part are pretty pointless, because He's made things pretty clear. 2) Heaven would be pretty pointless for people who don't believe in God anyway, or for people who reject Him. It's just that God has made it so that following Him has a definite upside and not following Him has a definite downside. Those who didn't think it worth their while to follow Him in this life will get to spend eternity seeing how wrong they were, instead of simply whiling away their time in some God-free Okaysville. You can say what you want about that, but it simply goes back to point 1.

                    Actually, there's a third point that a lot of people miss. The relationship we have with God is not just about future rewards or punishments. It very much is in the here and now, we can have a very sweet and satisfying relationship with God NOW, and not like some Joel Osteen thing either. Heaven is always part of the equation, but if fear of hell is all that drives somebody, then they miss so much.

  9. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
    Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago

    If it wasn't for religion the world would be a better place ...

    Remember history class? The crusades?

    Not only that but early scientist were burned, because of their disbelief in God ...

    We would have been a better developed society, if it wasn't for Religion ...

  10. jonnycomelately profile image86
    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago

    Belief does not equal Fact.    If the entire population of the world agreed to believe something, it still would not make it fact.  Because a belief, by definition, is not able to be substantiated in fact.  It cannot be replicated and given consistency, by every observer, a process which would be able to render it as fact.

    So, continue to believe.  But please be honest..... you have not established it as fact.  Even the historical nature of much that is written in the bible has not been established as fact, beyond all reasonable doubt.

    1. Chris Neal profile image82
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Except that anyone who has studied this knows that belief is very powerful and facts are often quite fluid.

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        wanting to believe in something does not make it fact, and facts and beliefs are NOT fluid.  Facts are facts.  Beliefs are beliefs.  Sometimes they coincide - sometimes they do not. 

        It's a fact that the historical background of christianity, it's founder or it's early members have not been verified extra-biblically.  It is a fact that, apart from the gospels, no contemporary evidence for jesus exists at all.  It is a fact that while certain people were willing to die for a belief in jesus, that does not make their beliefs more true than any of the other believers in any other religion who were willing to die for them.  Beliefs may be fluid - facts are rather firm.  They change as knowledge grows, and they adapt, but they are not as fluid as beliefs are, or as you would like to emply.

        1. Chris Neal profile image82
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Is it now?

    2. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
      Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I completely support Jonny's opinion.

      I'd like to also add that the whole Bible is Plagirized from the Sumerian Tablets ... here's a link http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum … 635868/pg1 ...

      The Sumerian Tablets can be found in the British History Museum and share astonishing similarities with the bible.

      1. Chris Neal profile image82
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No disprespect to Jonny but he has also stated that reality is what we experience with our real bodies. Well, that means that reality is very much based on what we believe we are experiencing, which makes reality entirely subjective and unverifiable.

    3. blcurry profile image62
      blcurryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      THAT Johnny, is your opinion!  hahahaha!   Be blessed!

      1. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
        Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No, that is not Johnny's opinion. That is the general definition of fact.

        FACT - A fact (derived from the Latin factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience.

        BELIEF - Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. Dispositional and occurrent belief concerns the contextual activation of the belief into thoughts (reactive of propositions) or ideas (based on the belief's premise). Metaphysically what seems truly there is what it's like to be the holder and observer of that belief.

        I don't know if you are ignoring me, but I thought you were trying to convince me something.

        Please tell me, how the UNBELIEF in god is causing problems, when the BELIEF (in Christianity) caused:

        - 9 Crusades and the deaths of thousand
        - Early Science to be claimed as a dogma and heresy, thus killing additional men and women (being burned alive)

        Did you know that we, as a sociey, could be at least a hundred years in advance in our development as a species, if it wasn't for belief in God?

        Also a fact - The Bible was plagirized by the Sumerian's creation tablets --> http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum … 635868/pg1 ..

      2. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        you don't seem to understand the difference between the definitions for facts, beliefs and opinions - since you're using them ALL incorrectly.

  11. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
    Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago

    I've never understood believers in christiany. No offence, but a person who believes in his intellegence should understand the difference between fiction and non-fiction quite well.

    Btw, I don't think anyone noticed, but the simple indication of the crusades and the alchemists (early scientist ) being burned alive,  is quite the winning argument against the statement "The UNBELIEF in God Has Caused More Problems Than It Has Solved" ...

    1. Chris Neal profile image82
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      We do. That's what many unbelievers fail to understand. They (and I'm lumping you in here simply because of the statement you made) seem to believe that if they can't see a reason to believe in God, then anyone who does is either crazy or stupid. I've been accused of both of those often enough, so that's not hyperbole.

  12. blcurry profile image62
    blcurryposted 3 years ago

    Finally! Hello Jm!  That is a great question that you have asked and I'll answer it like this: First off, we're only human and NO ONE is perfect, believer or non-believer.  PERIOD. Secondly, although Jesus never pointed the finger at those who were sincere in their efforts to reconcile and out of compassion and love he did many great miracles for the people, he also vehemently withstood the "religious leaders" of that time for blatantly misleading the people by trying to make the commandments of men greater than the commandments of God: Mark 7:5-9 says,
    hen the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

    6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

    ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far from Me.
    7 And in vain they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’[b]
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men[c] —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

    9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[d] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

    Also in John 2: 13-15,

    13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten[a] Me up.”[b]

    This was what we would call righteous indignation at those who would oppress, lie to, belittle, cheat, and even kill those who sincerely wanted relationship with God.  Now as far as "believers":
    In my humble opinion there is a difference between "believers" of Christ and "disciples."  Believers simply believe that Jesus gave his life for theirs and accept his forgiveness, disciples give their lives to Him and live by his principles.  Big difference.  Apparently, in the world today there are more believers than disciples.  But the main problem is that God has been so MIS represented by Mn13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten[a] Me up.”[b]

    This is what we would call righteous indignation.  Even Jesus opposed MEN who would hinder other men by lying, cheating, stealing, and even killing those who sincerely sought a relationship with God.  Lastly, as for "believers":  There is a difference between "believers" of Christ and "disciples" of Christ.  Believers accept the fact that Christ gave their life for them but don't often live by Christ-like principles.  Disciples of Christ give their life to Him and by the grace of God, live by his principles, the two most important stated above.  Big difference.  Because of this, God is often MIS-represented by MAN.  Jesus is the example to follow. (If you have the chance take a look at Matthew, Chapter 5.)Those are His principles that not many live by.

    For centuries MAN has claimed they were doing exploits for God but in actuality only promoting their own agenda in His name, believers, not disciples.  Again, big difference.  This in turn has turned many away from anything having to do with God.  My advice is seek God for yourself and let him reveal who He is to YOU.  Each man can do this own their own because we are free moral agents.  I believe that if someone was sincere and really wanted God to reveal himself to them in their own personal and intimate way, He would. Until then, he gets the blame for everything while simultaneously accused of not existing.  Now there's a paradigm.......Anyway, I hoped this may have cleared some things up for you.  Be blessed!     I'm not here to argue.   I simply stated the opposite of what someone else stated and, well,  you see the responses for yourself......Go figure. 

    Ultimately people will still miss it, misinterpret the obvious and take what was said out of context because they're human, some sincerely mistaken and some purposely spiteful, but the good news is that God still loves us inspite of ourselves, believers, non-believers, and disciples......This is my opinion which for me is my truth. Everyone is entitled to their own, but in the end we will all give an account for our lives before our Creator so let's make the best of life and stop all the strife.  Be blessed!

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, why don't you take a look at the passages that you listed more closely.  I don't need to read them.  I am extremely well-versed, and I'm an atheist.

      Jesus went after the jewish religious leaders.  He whipped money changers out of the temple.  He railed against those that were supposedly the leaders of the Jewish faith - and christians today have become JUST LIKE those leaders.  They're making laws preventing people from getting married.  They're restricting a woman's right to choose.  They are taking their 2000+ year old book and beating people over the head with it, demanding that everyone live by their own version of a biblical moral standard - regardless of everyone else's religious beliefs (or lack thereof).  They condemn atheists or believers in other faiths.  They fight with each other and have created over 30000 different "christian" denominations.  Yet they all claim that they have the ultimate truth, and claim heresy or blasphemy when someone disagrees.  They proclaim to be living the life of christ - when they're anything but.  They're hypocrites. 

      The book isn't real.  It's not a history book.  It's not a science book.  It's not even a moral book.  Adhering to it over 2 centuries later is not only silly, but it's patently absurd.  Most of the christians I know are more moral than their book.  Why not just treat it the way that we now treat zeus or apollo.  take the good bits out, and let the rest go the way of mythology.  You don't need this old book to be a good person.  In fact, I would argue that you can be a better person without it at all.

  13. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Most of what you said in this post is exactly the same thing that Jesus was saying to the establishment of the time.

         You are using his own words  and yet you act as if this proves that he didn't exis.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That's not what proves he didn't exist.  I'm using the bible in its context to contradict the views that were previously posted.

      I don't think that you can definitively "prove" that jesus did or didn't exist.  Historically, however, there are no extrabiblical contemporary sources - sources that SHOULD exist if the Jesus of the bible is an accurate portrayal of someone who actually lived.

  14. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
    Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago

    Jerami, Please refer to my pervious post in this thread .. I am asking you the same questions I ask blcurry ...

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      i apologize Ivan ...  Didn't see your post.  was talking to JMcFarland

  15. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
    Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago

    And JMcFarland ... great points ... as I perviously stated the Bible is plagirized ...

    Did you know that the words Holy and Allah ( The Holy Spirit from the Bible and Allah from the Quran ) come from one single word Khallialla (read halli alla )

    And this word comes from the Pol Pol Vuh ( The Mayan Holy Book ), which in fact shares astonishing similarities with the bible as well, and yet the Pol Pol Vuh is like 2000-3000 years younger than the Bible ...

  16. Ivan Ivanov profile image81
    Ivan Ivanovposted 3 years ago

    Holy Book of Ivan [1:61] And as the believes were left astonished, they started preaching the name of holy god Ivan and holy gatherer of knowledge JMcFarland, saying, "Thank you, Ivan, our creator, for blessing us with the knowledge, that we should not waste our time in nonsence. And Thank you JMcFarland for giving us the ability to distinct fact from fiction." And thus they started living a better life, one full of happiness and wonders. Amen.

  17. ccurry profile image73
    ccurryposted 3 years ago

    I applaud you B. I think that it's great that you at up for your faith. I am standing right here with you. Who thought posting about this would cause such a issue for those who don't believe.. One thing I wanna say is for those who don't believe in Jesus, you really have a vendetta against something that you don't even believe is real. Wow The bible say's every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus. I hope you all come to the knowledge of Christ. Jesus Loves you All!

    1. 0
      oceansiderposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, every knee WILL bow to Jesus Christ our Lord!!!!

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        no, every knee will not.  I don't care what your "book" says.  Even if you could prove without a doubt that your god existed, I would STILL refuse to worship him.  So that's every knee minus at least one.

  18. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Mark, You are overstating your evidence to mean more than it actualy does.
    Your perseption and everyone elses of what "A" creator is is as varied as the color of our cars.   My car is currently black , and I once had three.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Great that you know what my perception is. How do you do that? Did you read my mind or did the Invisible Super being tell you into your head? lol

      The bible is nonsense and no one agrees what it says. The evidence is clear.

  19. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Jerami wrote:
    Mark, You are overstating your evidence to mean more than it actualy does.
    You didn't address this statement;  why is that?
    Your perseption and everyone elses of what "A" creator is is as varied as the color of our cars.   My car is currently black , and I once had three.
    =====
    Mark wrote   Great that you know what my perception is. How do you do that? Did you read my mind or did the Invisible Super being tell you into your head?
    = - = - =
    ME
    There you go again.  I didn't say that I knew what yours is, just that it is as individual as you are.    But anything for arguements sake I guess?
    ========
    Mark
    The bible is nonsense and no one agrees what it says. The evidence is clear.
    ======
    Me
    I agree that a pagan emperor and the organization that he established did manipulate religious opinion in such a way as to create their representation of facts pretty much the same way that you are doing. 
    Facts are facts, However, the way in which we present them can and does cause us to formulate different conclusions.  Obvious conclusions based upon the specific pieces of evidence that we choose to address are quite often incorrect.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What facts are you talking about exactly?

      You are the one making an argument for no reason. I was talking to some one else when you jumped in with more word salad.

      let me get this straight:

      You disagree with me that no one can agree what the bible means, yet you think some Emperor rewrote it to mean something that it did not and this was foretold by prophecy an Rev 13 (no mention of any of that) and you know what it actually should have said, despite the Emperor leaving the prophecy in place.

      You don't know what my perception of a Creator is, but you know it is as different as the color of my car is to yours.

      You jumped into a discussion I was having with some one else, did not bother actually addressing what we were discussing and I am the one arguing for the sake of it because I think no one can agree on what the bible says, even though you think everyone has a different perception based on facts you cannot be bothered to reference?

      The original discussion I was having with someone else referenced a study that shows every groups of people asked reject a big part of what the bible says and they all agree there are lots of ways of interpreting it. And you think your interpretation is correct, despite not having read the original bible.

      Overstating what evidence? It is clear no one can agree what the bible say and they need to reinterpret it. 44,000 different denominations attest to that fact. Why? Because it makes no sense at all and it is necessary to re-write portions of it to make any sense out of it. But - I think it is great that you reject some of what the bible says. Eventually you will reject all of it.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you for a perfect example of word salad.   YOU Win!
        I gotta get to work .  see ya later.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Ah - didn't bother reading it then? OK

          bye

  20. my1doc199 profile image60
    my1doc199posted 3 years ago

    I agree <3

    1. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The UNBELIEF in God Has Caused More Problems Than It Has Solved!God being

      Atheist do not rule the world or lead it, imagine that. I think of God in a mystic way, it works and keep thou Godlike more to myself because too many people think I'm crazy calling everyone God, it gose with the flow of the 90% anyways.

      How ever, when a Religious group claims their singular God or Personal God is the only right way and only to life, conflicts and hell breaks loose worldwide..

      Christians must worship him, I'ts a him (Man), because no Woman coulds screw up this World so Bad as anicent mid evil hard times thinking as the Bible.

  21. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    I know, you were talking to someone else and I shouldn't BUTT in however non believers do it all of the time when two believers are having dialogue.

    JMcFarland;  when you asked  "I guess my fundamental question is what got you from no belief to belief - but not only belief, but the belief in the christian version of god?"

    What do you precieve to be "The"  christian version of God ? 
    I wasn't aware of "A" Christian version of who God is.

    As has been pointed out many times, there are 1000s of versions of Christianity.
    So it would stand to reason that there are many Christian versions of that  God.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      all I meant by "the" christian version of god is the god that's described in the bible.  Since Chris and I have been talking off and on, and I've read a few of his hubs on the subject, I think that I have a decent idea of what he believes.

      Butt in all you want - it's a forum.  It's not like two people are having an exclusive, private conversation and a complete stranger walks up to them and interjects.  This is the way forums are.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I just threw in that part about Butting in cause I have been accused of doing that lately.

          It is difficult to understand my own version of who/what God is. I am pretty sure no one else quite understands my concepts either.

  22. Codester0391 profile image61
    Codester0391posted 3 years ago

    This is a very touchy subject matter for me, as it is with many others.  However, I usually manage to remain calm which is unlike many others.

    I haven't read a real lot of the comments on hear, but from the ones I have read it looks like many of you Anti-Christ's tongue have misconceived the meaning of Christianity and the Bible.

    First off, Christians are not any less sinful than non-Christians, all humans sin constantly.  The thing that differentiates the two, in Gods eyes, is that Christians ask for forgiveness.  Also to Castlepaloma, if you're using rapture to refer to the end of the world, all people except Christians are going to hell in the end and there is no escaping the end for anyone.  The end of the world is the final judgement and is when there's so many non-believers that this world cannot be saved.

    Wether it be by death or something else, all remaining followers of God will be taken from this world to live eternally in heaven.  God isn't that picky, if you're not on his side, you're on the devils side.  The devil is Lucifer, a fallen angel, that was highest of the angels when he was in heaven.  He eventually thought he could overpower God, God obviously wouldn't allow this to happen, so he cast him out of heaven...when he left heaven half of Gods angels sided with the devil and became demons.

    Before the devil was cast out, everyone would have went to heaven.  After the devil was cast out, everyone who sinned, which was every human, went to hell.  God sent his only son Jesus, a part of himself, into the flesh.  This was an agreement, you could say, between God and the devil that if God became flesh and died the worst death then humans who repented for their sins would be able to be saved from eternal damnation.

    The devil has always been upset that God cast him out of heaven.  The only way he can get back at God is to torture Gods creation, the thing God loves most.  If you side with the Devil that's up to you...that's not Gods choice, he can't make that choice for you.

    Lastly, there are many things far beyond our comprehension.  We humans think we're so smart when all we can compare ourselves to is animals and insects.  We have yet to fully understand how everything in our own bodies work, let alone the earth or the galaxy or things beyond.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image89
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      All that satan is lucifer; was super dooper beautiful angel in heaven; got jealous of God; got cast out; a third of angels wilfully sided with him and became demons; now Satan tortures humanity; wants to drag everyone to hell. Can you please show us where this tale appears in the bible because I've never seen it. Oh and while you are at it just where does the bible state that a talking snake was Satan?

      1. Codester0391 profile image61
        Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "Lucifer (pron.: /ˈluːsɪfər/ or /ˈljuːsɪfər/) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated hêlēl or heylel, occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means 'shining one, morning star, Lucifer'. The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate, which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer, meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus" (or, as an adjective, "light-bringing"). The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל"

        Isaiah 14:11-15
        New International Version (NIV)

        11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
            along with the noise of your harps;
        maggots are spread out beneath you
            and worms cover you.
        12 How you have fallen from heaven,
            morning star, son of the dawn!
        You have been cast down to the earth,
            you who once laid low the nations!
        13 You said in your heart,
            “I will ascend to the heavens;
        I will raise my throne
            above the stars of God;
        I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
            on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
        14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
            I will make myself like the Most High.”
        15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
            to the depths of the pit.

        Revelation 12:7-9
        New International Version (NIV)

        7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

        Ezekiel 28:12-19
        New International Version (NIV)

        12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

        “‘You were the seal of perfection,
            full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
        13 You were in Eden,
            the garden of God;
        every precious stone adorned you:
            carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
            topaz, onyx and jasper,
            lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
        Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
            on the day you were created they were prepared.
        14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
            for so I ordained you.
        You were on the holy mount of God;
            you walked among the fiery stones.
        15 You were blameless in your ways
            from the day you were created
            till wickedness was found in you.
        16 Through your widespread trade
            you were filled with violence,
            and you sinned.
        So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
            and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
            from among the fiery stones.
        17 Your heart became proud
            on account of your beauty,
        and you corrupted your wisdom
            because of your splendor.
        So I threw you to the earth;
            I made a spectacle of you before kings.
        18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
            you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
        So I made a fire come out from you,
            and it consumed you,
        and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
            in the sight of all who were watching.
        19 All the nations who knew you
            are appalled at you;
        you have come to a horrible end
            and will be no more.’”


        Revelation 20:10-15
        New International Version (NIV)

        10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

        The Judgment of the Dead

        11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

        Matthew 25:41
        New International Version (NIV)

        41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

        2 Corinthians 11
        New International Version (NIV)

        Paul and the False Apostles


        1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

        5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

        12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.


        A serpent is a snake or a snake-like entity.
        I think that's everything.  Pretty tired though, so it's possible I could have messed something up.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image89
          Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Isaiah 14 is discussing Nebuchadnezzer the King of Babylon
          Ezekiel 28 is talking about the King of Tyre. Verse 12 and "dishonest trade" being dead giveaways.
          Revelation a controversial book in its time and many in the Church opposed its inclusion. The Babylonian astrology should cause alarm bells to ring.
          Genesis never mentions satan. Snake imagery is used to denote healing.
          There is no rebellious Satan in the Hebrew Scriptures or Judaism.

          1. Codester0391 profile image61
            Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, the Jewish interpret the verses in Isaiah as being Nebuchadnezzar II.
            You can consider Lucifer your God if you'd like, as some do.  It depends upon how you interpret the bible or what you believe.  It's not an area that's extremely precise in its definition.

            Tyre was never mentioned in Eden, which is one of the major reasons most have concluded that the king of Tyre was Satan.  However, there's other things that could cause a person to believe Tyre was Satan or a portion believe he was possessed by Satan.

            Genesis 3:1-13
            New International Version (NIV)

            The Fall


            1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

            2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

            4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

            6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

            8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

            10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

            11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

            12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

            13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

            The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”



            To me, that doesn't sound like it denotes healing, but if that's how you see it that's fine.
            And yes, the Jewish are still waiting for Jesus too.  There are several differences between Judaism and Christianity.

            You can believe that if you'd like, I'm not going to force you to believe what I do.  I was writing about Christianity in my original comment, I apologize if I've offended you.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Rather than copying and pasting entire pages of Scripture, would you be willing to simply supply the chapters and verses to which you are referring?  It's far easier to follow a conversation that way and if some folks are just not interested in the Scripture, they are likely to simply scroll by your posts without reading them.  You'll lose the interest of those to whom you wish to speak.

            2. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You could remember this when trying to decipher everything that you paste here.  Most, if not all of it, I would suggest is a mixture of metaphor and obscure cultural implications (I am no way knowledgeable of the bible beyond what I learned in church and school).

              Codester0391, you seem to me like a guy who is intelligent and inquiring after new understandings in your life.   I can respect your enthusiasm.   You can return the respect to others by being willing to allow different interpretations according to each person's inner needs.   It is not necessary to agree, just allow.

              From my experience here in HubPages, it is the dogmatic presentation of one idea/understanding, to the exclusion of all others, that causes the greatest argument and the least progress of understanding.

              1. jacharless profile image80
                jacharlessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Absolutely no better way to say it.
                Hello John, long time no talk. I trust all is well?
                James.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Welcome James, good to see you here again. 

                  I must try to follow my own edicts, because I do confront the views of others a bit too much.

                  1. jacharless profile image80
                    jacharlessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Confrontation isn't always a negative. And the more communication the better. But, you know that already. Right, em, very sorry to have been estranged lately. Bad manners on my part. Just finished a new publishing site and have been trying to reboot my brain from lines of digital code to actual human speech. lol. Realized it was bad when I began talking to some Facebook friends in "if / else" statements. Which may not sound all that funny, but to me was hysterical, because [typical] fundamentalists use chapter / verse in the exact same manner, versus just dialoguing. big_smile
                    James

              2. Codester0391 profile image61
                Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you!  And, I usually attempt to maintain impartiality when sharing my perspective; however, it can often be a difficult task to pursue.

            3. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You haven't offended me at all. My point is that all the cliche Satan, Lucifer, King of Tyre, 3rd of angels, blah blah blah, was unknown as a theological doctrine until the medieval Church made it up. To understand talking snakes and satan, we must look to see how these things were understood by the writers and their immediate audience. For example you might benefit greatly from reading up on some Jewish commentaries on these subjects. The penny will drop and everything will fall into place.

              Watch this, its brilliant.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1aa9q1RULg

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Wonderful, how camp!

              2. Codester0391 profile image61
                Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I can see where you're coming from.  I've begun watching the video contained in your link, but will have to finish watching it another time because of its length.

                Not sure it'll change my beliefs, but surely worth looking into.

                "He is wise who knows the sources of knowledge - who knows who has written and where it is to be found." -- Archibald Alexander Hodge

    2. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sir, you write eloquently,  but what is the real substance of that writing?   Can you please explain what exactly you mean by "heaven?"   

      How can you say what it will be like "up there," when you have passed out of this physical life?   Your answer(s) will obviously come out of your imagination; presumably embodying what you would wish for yourself.   However, your imaginations will not be the same as for any other person who states their ideas.  So --- are you not taking a sort of pot-luck bet on what you will end up with for eternity?

      1. Codester0391 profile image61
        Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think I mentioned what it would be like; however, if you would like some bible verses on it, I've listed them below.

        Revelation 22:1-5
        New International Version (NIV)

        Eden Restored


        1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.


        John 14:2
        New International Version (NIV)


        2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?


        Revelation 5:9-13
        New International Version (NIV)


        9 And they sang a new song, saying:

        “You are worthy to take the scroll
            and to open its seals,
        because you were slain,
            and with your blood you purchased for God
            persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
        10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
            and they will reign on the earth.”
        11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

        “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
            to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
            and honor and glory and praise!”
        13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

        “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
            be praise and honor and glory and power,
        for ever and ever!”


        Revelation 21:4
        New International Version (NIV)


        4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

  23. Codester0391 profile image61
    Codester0391posted 3 years ago

    Yes, I agree with you MissJamieD.  However, I haven't always been on the straight and narrow path myself, I've encountered several run-ins with the law.  And while I'd believed I was a Christian before, those very difficult times have surely strengthened my relationship with God.  So I don't necessarily think it's sad for those people to turn to God for the first time then because at least they are developing a relationship with him.  Furthermore, I've found that for many of them, their Christianity is much more stable than you'd think.  Sometimes better than those I've seen attending Church.

    If they were taught about God at a young age though, it would help.  It could also possibly break the cycle of  alcoholism, drug use, abuse, molestation, etc...that is often past down from generation to generation in families.  I often feel bad for those people because they've had such hard times and they try so desperately to change, but when you've been something your whole life change doesn't come easy.  However, if they do manage to break away, they'll have passed the ultimate test.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Codester0391

      I wonder who would be considered an Anti-Christ's? Maybe 2/3 of the world’s population who don’t pratice Christianity or the Bible. Do they go to hell, mainly because of their lack of belief?

      Take USA for example, a country with the greatest population of Christians, who lead in Wars, prisons, greed and so on, acting more like Sodom and Gomorrah than any other place on earth. Why would a picky God like Yahweh give his plan to Christian with most horrible road record? Are Christian better than all the other meek non Christians people and Yahweh better than the other million of Gods on the planet. Not good enough reasons, or good enough ethics or kindness behavior for me to live by.

      The Bible has the greatest amount contradiction I've ever read in amoung the hunreds of other good books. I’m happy to love anyone without conditions, jealously, regrets, quilt, angry, fear of God and the worst concept mankind ever invention, fear mongering Hell. Replace sin with adjusting our mistakes in life, it washes the soul better than regrets forever.

      I feel sorry for Christian who must drag around all these demon like luggage or a demon on their shoulder, all the natural lives. Then still might end up in Hell with rest of us, judging by their fruits. No, I side with the spiritual sided who with their hearts can only be penetrated by love OR kindness, not by fear of wars, guns, prisons and OR hell.

      We are moral animals with only a Brain organ greater than other animals, yes, too bad; we don’t use our minds well enough or be kind enough to the natural environment. Just because we don’t understand most things, does not mean Yahweh fill in all the answers. Most of the hard Question I asks Christians, come back empty handed with-“ you got to have faith”- Blind faith, I say” The most incomprehensive thing about the Universe is that it can be comprehensible.

      Never had any addiction except for love and the love of my art as an artist. What else am I suppose to do for most waking hours of my life? If Your God claims itself “God is love”, yes I agree everyone is GOD, then we can end  all wars with the other millions of Gods.

      1. Codester0391 profile image61
        Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I was just using "Anti-Christ" as a sarcastic metaphor...According to the bible I suppose they would though, ultimately that decision isn't up to me.  All I can give you is biblical verses and my opinion/perspective.  I'm sure not all people who say they're Christian, really are.  And I get what you're saying, but a lot really depends upon your interpretation of the bible.  However, as far as I know, the bible doesn't tell a person to carry negative emotions with them throughout their whole life.

        Personally I respect many religions (to an extent), it just depends upon what the individual considers their higher power.  I'm also willing to analyze, debate and/or consider anyone's viewpoint.

        If you know of the word Yahweh, you should know that the old and new testament are completely different things.  In the old testament, humans were not forgiven for their sins, in the new they were.  That being so, much of the old testament no longer applies.  Additionally, if you compare the old and the new testament, each one makes different aspects of God's nature more prominent, this doesn't mean they have to contradict themselves.  For example, if you love your child yet you publish them for doing something wrong, would punishing them contradict the fact that you love them?  The bible does not contradict itself unless you're looking to interpret the words in a way that makes it do so.

        You also must understand that, though it were inspired by God, the bible was written by humans.  Besides humans being prone to error, God would be relaying information to a being on a completely different level of consciousness and intelligence than himself.  It'd possibly be similar to you having a conversation with an insect.  It would be impossible for the insect to fully understand everything, but the information would be interpreted in a way the insect could understand.  Furthermore, the bible is translated from ancient languages to a modern language.  If you know a little about different languages, you'd know there can be a lot lost in translation because some words have no exact equivalent.

        I believe every human should fight as little as possible, but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't stand up for what they believe in.  Causing pain and suffering should be something everyone avoids at all costs, unless it would ultimately diminish the amount of pain and suffering inflicted upon humans as a whole.  Every Christian, and persons, should hate little, love often and never judge.

        "Yahweh fill in the answers?"  Not exactly sure what you mean.  Humans will always have questions, there's nothing wrong with that, it's in our nature to want thee answers.  That doesn't mean we'll get all the answers we want.  And theories cannot be facts, thus it all comes down to what the individual believes.  If they believe in God, then they'll have faith that there is a God and that he inspired the writing of the bible and that he created everything.  You've got to have faith in order to believe in God.  And yes, everything that cannot be proven factual is blind.  Maybe the universe can be comprehensible, but if it was now, it would have been proven and I doubt a day will come when humans will be able to prove it.

        I've got nothing against you and I don't mean for any of this to offend you, you seem like a decent guy.  It also seems as though something must have turned you against religion.  Not trying to get to personal, but someone as opinionated, on a subject, as yourself has usually encountered something that's made them that way.

        I think everyone should believe in some greater power than themselves, otherwise life would seem so pointless.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image22
          Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          In the Bible there are many different names given to the One True God.  The most frequently used names are YHWH, usually rendered as Yahweh (ca. 6,800 times)

          I'm no against anyone or group mainly because I do not belong to any group. So no need to protect a any one group in an over ego World. Unattached love, mean no to have condition of love like Religions do.
          There are people who have proven to me they live life well with the belief of God. You or anyone can not prove Yahweh or the Bible is the only true way or right way to God. So, Yahweh is against other Gods and their people.

          1. Codester0391 profile image61
            Codester0391posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it cannot be proven, it just comes down to the individuals beliefs.  And yes, religious traditions have always repudiated one another, they probably always will.

            The human race has practically always believed in a power greater than themselves, as well as in an afterlife.  I think it better allows one to attain mental and physical equilibrium, which may lead to a more fulfilling life.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image22
              Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              The World and Universe is 99% unknown to Mankind

              There's a higher  power, greater than the human race

  24. blcurry profile image62
    blcurryposted 3 years ago

    Lol! Ok.

  25. taburkett profile image60
    taburkettposted 3 years ago

    1 Timothy 4: 6-16

    6 If you put these things before others, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive,[b] because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

    11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them,[c] so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

  26. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago

    Wandering by... Again.

  27. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago

    I am working up the energy to deal with this thread.

    1. Chris Neal profile image82
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No you're not.

      1. paradigmsearch profile image88
        paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        big_smile

  28. PaulGoodman67 profile image90
    PaulGoodman67posted 3 years ago

    I don't think religion has had much overall effect on the world either way, when it comes to war, greed, poverty.  These are human problems at the end of the day and exist in all societies, whatever their beliefs, or non-beliefs.  Christianity has had 2000 years to fulfill its promises without success.  Time to move on.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      +
      Yes, lets move on to living in the present rather than living in Med Evil hard times.

    2. 0
      Spikologyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What would your interpretation of "success" be?

      1. Castlepaloma profile image22
        Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Being able to developed personal growth first  then share it in a mutual benefits matters (co- op middle grounds) with others desires, attitudes, focus and talents toward promoting happiness and less suffering in the world.

        1. 0
          Spikologyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Spot on! I can't tell you how many times a day I wish there was no suffering in the world, especially children. Everyone should have the chance to at least start their life right.

  29. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago

    What!?! Am I here?

    1. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Trying to flood this thread too, hey

  30. taburkett profile image60
    taburkettposted 3 years ago

    The discussion in this regard has risen to a predictible platonic level of debate.
    While every individual debater continues to emotionally display their strong support for their position, few have been able to qualify or quantify enough reasons for others to modify their beliefs.
    This is quite common in all mankind because simple discussion is not usually enough to sway a person who has a bias in any activity they consider personal.
    However, the debater must remember that the original statement was "The UNBELIEF in God Has Caused More Problems Than It Has Solved!"
    While this simple statement may be emotionally challenging, the informed moral individual should understand that through deductive reasoning, the teaching of moral principles through belief in God has eliminated problems in the past.
    Historically, we find that mankind is always distressed through the ages as immoral and anti-God or secular activity elevates itself to a degrading position in society.
    It does not take a rocket-scientist degree to recognize the volatile factions of the past and present that generate immoral fractures in the society. (Nazis, Apartheid, Genocide)
    However, it does take a sensible individual to recognize that their personal opinion regardless of side in the debate supported will have little impact on the other debaters who also cannot fully justify their opinion.
    What actually makes sense is to teach the correct morals to others in society so that regardless of personal opinion, each individual lives under the correct moral principles.
    Anti-social disorder occurs more often in regions that lack society groups that promote moral principles.
    In our current multi-cultural society, many of the criminal factors evolve through a fractured moral society due to personal bias being socially spread as fact rather than a personal opinion. 
    However, the ciminal mind is most normally spread in disparate regions as the fractured moral society continues to clash within biased ranks of the emotionally fractured groups.
    This is happening because various debaters continue to inflame an immoral path of conflict rather than a moral path to acceptance of their personal responsibility role in which moral principles are broadcast to society members.
    Any theory that leads to the correct distribution of moral principles to the members of the society should be considered healthy for the society.
    However, attacks on the religious communities that attempt this has created a void in such distribution of those correct principles.  In fact, removing such activity even as a supplemental society support program has been detrimental to the moral growth of the society.
    Therefore, the propensity generated through those who project unbelief in God without presenting a moral replacement have caused more fractured society members by insisting that any artistic work,
    moral statement, God reference, or righteous principle is an attack on those who do not believe.
    The instigation of fiendish motivation like this inflames others who have little capability to correctly comprehend their personal responsibility to accept the moral principles of society that mean everyone is permitted to have a personal belief, but they are not permitted to restrict the beliefs of others.
    Any debate of this nature will aways continue because individual personal bias of mankind will always kindle a sort of "king of the discussion" in some people who never accept their personal responsibility for the harm in society they have imposed.
    This is true whether the harmful individual believes themselves to be reigious or not.
    Furthermore, science will never prove or disprove any religious claims, because it is the individual human who must themselves determine their personal stance on moralilty and how they pass a positive moral belief onto their descendents.
    Additionally, science will never provide the answer to who created the earth, because they do not possess the ability to reach beyond conceptual human theory to the origins of everything from nothingness.

    Hence - which came first - the chicken or the egg.
    The answer - what difference does it make - they both taste good when prepared correctly.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image22
      Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I had chicken and eggs once, the menu called it
      "Mother & Child Reunion”

      How come I have good morals and ethics record now with being Religious?  Have not harmed anyone and have not broken my honest lifestyle without being Religious or Atheist?

      Why would I want to adapt  or change to either  having enemies, quilt, jealously for other Gods, fear , fight, fight, fight, conflict, conflict, etc, ect when life is so healthy and happy now?

      1. taburkett profile image60
        taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        only you can answer your stated question because it requires full knowledge of your intentions and definitions concerning all things.

  31. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 3 years ago

    Wandering back...

  32. taburkett profile image60
    taburkettposted 3 years ago

    the unbelief in God is generated by those who selfishly wish to install doubt in the minds of gullible individuals because they find themselves wandering aimlessly alone in society.
    people who believe in God recognize their personal responsibility to perpetuate the society through moral actions.
    anything less than a moral society will always perish, because selfishness demands an I perspective rather than a we objective.
    through this I perspective, the moral human race will not perpetuate because it will never achieve the we objective with a desire to assist everyone else.
    When Jesus sacificed himself for my sins, he attempted to establish a moral objective whereby each subsequent human would be provided a sound moral teaching that would perpetuate the moral society.
    therefore, the unbelief in God has caused more problems than it has solved.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Please allow me to correct that sentence:

      the belief in God is generated by those who selfishly wish to install doubt in the minds of gullible individuals, because they find themselves potentially on the winning side in society.

      taburkett, there certainly are lovely people, who try hard to be good people, to follow a beautifully moral life, who claim a belief in god and Jesus as you do.  Most of these people are not out there blabbing about their "faith" and insisting they are "holier than thou."  I have nothing against them, and love them for their efforts in life.   They are not perfect; they don't claim to be; and they can live with my imperfections.

      Those who do come over as "holier than thou," and try to sit in judgment of others without possessing all the facts required to judge with equanimity, they are the people whom I battle with. 

      Which group of people do you side with?

      1. taburkett profile image60
        taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I judge no one - I deal in truth.
        The truth is, whether a person believes in God or not, each must personally accept responsibility for their actions.
        This includes the all radical expressions of individuals who blatantly demand that their belief ranks the beliefs of others.
        The problem with today's environment is that many people in the multi-cultural society want to change the society through immoral activity that will only expand the path to destruction.
        As an experienced counselor, I have personally witnessed the degradation of the society first-hand through the expanding anti-other period as the number of troubled youth grows exponentially every year.
        This includes all anti-other activity resulting from political corruption, illegal activities, immoral actions, and radicalism.   
        Due to the advancement in digital technology, the evil clash of society has further damaged the society.  This is due to lack of moral adult supervision.
        Reviewing recent series of evil activities in the country, it is obvious that the American society has been gravely damaged by lack of a solid moral principle structure.
        While the society will never be perfect, a return to moral principles is required if the nation is to survive.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image22
          Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Do you think there is too many moral laws as a big part of the problem?
          Why not think for yourself, first?

          1. taburkett profile image60
            taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            moral law is composed of rules that apply to everyone.
            minority groups continuously expand the degrading of the American society through radicalization of a belief that others should pay for immoral activities.
            politicians have purposely enacted laws supporting the immoral activities to buy votes rather than to generate a moral society.
            the current laws present a problem due to the chaos created through divisive intentions of individuals who should be living through individual liberty.
            For example, I do not believe that the government should restrict abortion, because I believe this is a personal decision.  But, I do not believe that the government should pay for it or that the government should require anyone other than the individual to pay for it.
            The lack of personal responsibility is the largest part of the big problem.
            Through continual assault on religion, society has bred many immoral and corrupt individuals who believe that they are permitted to do anything they want.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              This is right, taburkett.  Parents must guide their children in order for them to be able to guide themselves!  During the period from birth to 6 yrs., the second embryonic period of human development is occurring. The psyche is developing. The parents are the role models during this period. If the parents do not set morals and boundaries at this time they may never be there. I feel so sorry for children whose mothers have abandoned them at day care. Essentially, mothers are at the mercy of the daycare teachers.  Is a teacher a mother?
              No.
              In order for daycare teachers to be good enough for our children they need to be really kind, loving people who truly understand the process of human psychic and physical development from of birth to 6. They also need to respect the child.
              And Moms... while we are at it...don't get immunized while you are pregnant.
              You will be shooting aluminum and mercury into your veins. If your (developing) child's tiny little liver cannot handle these metals, they could become lodged in your child's brain causing autism. Don't mess with nature!

              1. taburkett profile image60
                taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                you are correct.  it begins with the child.
                I have coached many people including children on their responsibility.
                I began with my own family and then expanded through my career.
                When the correct guidance is provided to the individual, they normally learn to respect themselves and others.

                http://s2.hubimg.com/u/7568321_f248.jpg

                1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Kathryn, can you please give really honest and reliable sources for this stuff you are saying?

                  I see that back in 2008 then President G.W.Bush vetoed an attempt to remove Mercury from the Flu vaccine.   Have you any idea why it was included?  Have you any idea why that president vetoed it?

                  This Website gives more details about the use of ethyl mercury as a preservative in the multi-dose form of the vaccine.  It also explains the difference, and therefore the safety factors, in using ethyl, as opposed to methyl mercury.

                  I am no expert at all in this matter, therefore can only point to scientific data.   However, as you know, I am also a skeptic, and remain very wary of scare-mongering amongst lay persons.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    On the radio, I heard a mother explain her story.  She discovered with much research on her part, that her autistic child tested high for not only mercury, but aluminum, as well.
                    The hottest spot for autism is LA. (I saw statistics.)
                    Autism is the worst. Someone I know referred to it as a plague.
                    According to that mother, it has to do with the vital organs of the child. Some childrens' organs are strong and can filter out the toxins, whatever they are. Some children's livers are weaker and cannot metabolize the metals and they get lodged in the brain and other places in the body. In her child, spasms had been occurring in his arms and legs. She is doing chelation therapy and dietary modification and has seen results. I myself know mothers who have gone this route and saw great improvement.
                    I have worked with autistic children in teaching them swimming and so many of their mothers say the same thing...
                    "High fever, swollen area around the shot..." completely changed baby afterwards. With baby pictures to show... "Yes, he was making eye contact.. Yes, he was smiling at us."
                    No, I do not have proof, facts or figures. Just real time witnessing of cases.
                    But, it is something to be seriously concerned about.
                    Really, all we have are educated (or uneducated) guesses due to the fact that
                    It is hard to follow the human population to prove hypotheses.
                    Sadly.

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  *shudders*

                  1. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Let that one go..LOL

                  2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    With you 100%. I dread to think.

            2. Castlepaloma profile image22
              Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Why can't laws be boiled down to loss or harm. USA has 25% of the world's prison because there are too many laws, too many non needed laws.

              1. taburkett profile image60
                taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                because lawyers and judges need the work.........
                that is why the lawyers and judges want to take away the guns........
                they want to have those criminals alive so they can get the jobs............

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Article 21, UN agenda...

                2. Castlepaloma profile image22
                  Castlepalomaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Most American President started out as lawyers, so the vicious cycle start all over again. Until the day American wake up and realize most of the third World has grown up so much faster than them and they take over much of the power the USA used to have.

                  Seems fair enough

    2. waynet profile image46
      waynetposted 3 years ago

      I think all this religious stuff is just preposterous to the highest infinity!

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        ...oh, have we veered?

    3. 0
      OllieTrolleyposted 2 years ago

      To OP,
      Merry Meet, i have a few things to point out. My "Unbelief" in the Christian God has actually solved more problems. Where as my family is disappointed in my new path of faith, I have never been happier. I was born and raised Christian, but I converted to Wicca and my life has turned around for the better. So saying it causes more problems then it solves, is a pretty bold thing to say, considering most people are quite happy with their religion, even if it's pagan. Maybe if you talked so someone and learned about their religion, then maybe you wouldn't be so closed-minded. On of my favorite things to do is discus religion, I've very open to listening to other people's perspective, even if it's different from mine. I don't like trying to convert people, and I'll never try, but I love share beliefs and looking discovering the reasons behind those beliefs.

      So, OP, I hope you learn to be more open-minded. I'm happy to discus anything if needed.

      Farewell,
      Devin

     
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