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A Facebook post.

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    Rad Manposted 3 years ago

    Is this an appropriate Facebook post? It seems to be to be saying that life for those who don't believe in God has no meaning. Would it be appropriate to direct it to Muslims with the Caption " A Life without Jesus as your saviour has no point"?

    http://s3.hubimg.com/u/7687542_f248.jpg

    1. FatFreddysCat profile image93
      FatFreddysCatposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Facebook's full of stupid crap like that. I just ignore it and move on.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I usually do, but in this case I thought it's time to let the poster know how ignorant the post really is. I may have lost a facebook friend, but that's okay this person is posting crap like this all the time.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Absolutely, Muslims would go off their rocker at that and would probably start rioting and persecuting Christians who lived in Muslim states. Christians would be shrieking persecution if it was pointed towards them. It's simply the intolerance and hatred of others taught by those religions that causes believers to behave without morals and ethics.

    3. Pearldiver profile image86
      Pearldiverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Probably best to just throw one's shoes at this example of pathetic handwriting and feel pleased that it wasn't found stuck on your car bumper!  roll

    4. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If people on Facebook were not allowed to have stupid opinions the site would be a ghost town within a week.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        LOL

      2. Thelma Alberts profile image81
        Thelma Albertsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. So, I just ignore those posts.

    5. Stevennix2001 profile image83
      Stevennix2001posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I say who cares?  People post a lot of stupid crap on facebook and twitter these days that I honestly don't give a damn about it.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Eh.....it simply makes sense that a person's life isn't fulfilled without knowing about (and having a relationship to/with) his/her Creator.   The Creator of the entire universe!    I would think anyone would want that information and that chance.

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        yeah.  Maybe not.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        My creator lives in a small town about an hour and a half north of me. He's always been there for me and I can have actual conversations with him.

        The creator of which you speak of is a figment of your imagination. Too bad.

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          Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'm glad your earthly father is still alive (I assume, anyway, that that's who you're referring to as your creator).
          I would love to be able to talk to my father again,  but he went to our heavenly Father some years ago.
          Yup, to that Creator to whom I refer.   I'm very glad I can have conversations with Him!

          1. JMcFarland profile image91
            JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            you have no more proof of your creator than I have proof of my invisible pet purple dragon.  I'm sorry, but inventing an invisible sky daddy and talking to him does not make him real.  There is no need for a creator, as there is no creation.  I don't understand why people keep trying to insist upon creating a creator for themselves, regardless of the lack of evidence that supports their position.

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              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Eh.........you think there's no evidence?
              Just the fact that you exist is evidence!
              Not to mention the creation of nature even before that.
              What has hardened your heart to the possibility of a Creator?

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                creation is not evidence of a creator any more than crayola is evidence of crayons.  It's like saying that the book of mormon is true because it says so - although you'd probably agree with that statement if I used the bible instead.

                I am not evidence of a creator.  I am evidence that my parents had sex.  Nature is not evidence of a creator.  There is no watchmaker, no fine-tuning and no evidence at ALL to support the idea of a super-being that had to start the entire process.  If you have some, feel fee to present it - but "you exist, therefore god" is not proof.  Sorry.

                Nothing "hardened my heart" to the possibility of a creator.  The time to believe something is AFTER sufficient evidence has been presented - not just because you want something to be true, so you believe it anyway.  If you were to go by that standard of evidence, you should also accept every creator claims made in every other religion.  There's just as much proof for them as their is for yours.

              2. skye2day profile image85
                skye2dayposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Brenda Praise God sister. I do not know why I bookmarked this hub for sure. It amazes me that people can not see GOD in the creation. Oh My GOD they are deceived. May our Lord move on their hearts in time. Love you sister just thought to encourage you a bit.  Not that you really need it. The Lord in you you are encouraged and enlightened.  Anyway keep going and shining the light within. Your sista,  Skye

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yet, you will never be able to tell anyone where you see GOD in creation because there is nothing to see.

                  Go ahead and try, you will fail and you know it. smile

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Which is fine.  Not convincing people is actually, pardon my expression, OK. Jesus mentioned of people who just don't have what it takes to accept or understand what is around them, spiritually. I believe the term is "having eyes to see and ears to hear".  Some look at the marvels of space and think oh thats pretty. Yet they fail to perceive design. They look at a simple vegetable with seeds inside it and say, "this is very cool and thank goodness we have seeds", yet they fail to notice how intricate and impossible this situation really is, not noticing what the odds must have been that every manner of vegetation and flesh should reproduce after its own kind.
                    Darwin said that we should see an ever so simple structure to the cell and he was wrong. Theories are not facts and by scientific definition can not be called facts.  Our unique yellow sun, gives us the full color spectrum, our nice circular orbit gives us steady seasons, the moon in exactly the right place and being ever so coincidentally comprised of shiny material keeps our axis from wobbling and assists tidal movement, gives light at night, what a brilliant idea! we are so lucky. Yes mankind marvels not at planets hanging as orbs in space, it has become, commonplace.
                    Ahh yes, there is no design and no significance to the opposable thumb because monkeys have them too, how fortunate - thank you evolution how smart you are.
                    Sometimes as a christian you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.
                    have a nice day

                  2. Cock of the Walk profile image61
                    Cock of the Walkposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Deleted

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You consider yourself a prophet? God talks to you? If so tell me something that you should not know about me that your God tells you. I've asked a few people in these forums this question who claim to have conversations with God, but I never get a response. Your all knowing all powerful God should be glad to give you some information to make a believer out of me. Name the street I lived on in 1980? This is your chance.

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              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Eh....every Christian is a prophet in a way.  We all prophesy at one time or another.

              ....Tell you where you lived in 1980!?   LOL.   I claim to know God;  I don't claim to be a psychic.   Good thing too, since that's unGodly.     I suppose, however, that if there were some good reason that I should know that specific information,   God would give it to me or I'd search it out until I found the facts;   but indeed I have no good reason to do such a thing;   in particular your daring me to do so is rather comical to me!

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                That's exactly what everyone else said. They have conversations with said God, but can't get any information from him to save a soul. Always the same. All talk no action. Ask your God tonight the name of the street I lived on in 1980 and the answer will surely come to you. That's how conversations work.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Once again, that's not how it works.
                  God's not a genie in a bottle, and I'm not a fortune teller.
                  I will, though, converse with Him about your soul,  since you asked.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No no no, you need to just tell me the name of the street I live on in 1980. It's a simple task for a loving, all knowing all powerful God. No cope outs now, come on. Prove me wrong.

                2. brotheryochanan profile image62
                  brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Genesis 3:9   And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are you?
                  Adam walked with God. Adam had a relationship with God. Moses too and others, but lets get back to Adam and lets take the bible at face value for this time. God told adam things; name the animals, don't eat of the tree etc... Yet we find God asking Adam where are you? Do we think that God did not know physically where Adam was? No. God was talking to adam about his spiritual location which should have been beside God walking in the cool of the day. God gives his reason for asking Adam this question.
                  Genesis 3:11   And he said, ... Have you eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded you that you should not eat from?
                  And this is why people do not hear from God.  Of course is this one aspect of why people do not hear from God, testings are included, stubborn wrongful attitudes that need adjusting, the building of faith etc, but i don't want to make this too long, so i am trying to keep it simple.
                  The root of not knowing God is a sinful path, its not a sinful activity unless that activity grows into a path or habitual course of action, in essence, a rebellion. Does it make sense that those who inquire of God should not be found by Him? No it does not, if one believes in God of course.
                  So we notice that it is illogical God would not speak to a person unless there was reason. The bible is full to the brim of Gods words, God speaking to people, Gods promises, his designs, intentions etc.

                  Inference is where you have spoken from, an inference from outside the bible and outside a walk with God, having not accepted and tried the path or having rebelled previously while in God only to have God ask, "where are you?

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    So you've got nothing either? And your saying those who claim to talk with God are lying?

      3. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Eh? Brenda I'm surrounded daily by people who do not believe in God but they have very fulfilled lives. I've met Christians who's lives are unfulfilled but they daily try to convince themselves that they are fulfilled because the Christian propaganda tells them that unless they are fulfilled they are not true Christians.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          i know of no christian propaganda that says fulfilled christians are true christians and i read nowhere that unfulfilled christians are not true christians.
          What i do know is that in the christian life there will always be conflict, struggle, adaption, change, blessing, happiness, sadness, joy, separation from family, times of testing, times of approval and disapproval from both god  and people and weird things being said to them in forums. smile
          Whatever segment of christianity that says christians have to be fulfilled needs to be investigated. i know christians, myself included, who have gone through times of great sorrow and anguish, surely these are not times of fulfillment? Later on they proved fantastic times, but the time seemed endless before getting there.
          As God works on our lives he is like a surgeon, digging deep and extracting infectious material from our very being. God changes our psyche he diminishes our ego and beats self to a pulp. lol in efforts to produce Gold.
          In my eyes Christians who are struggling, going through change, being obedient to the words of God, upon them for their lives, are blessed but to say their lives are not fulfilled seems to me a bit materialistic and not mindful of the spiritual nature of Gods great work in us to be (for Marks sake) better people than WE WERE.
          Although your statement seems to be valid. I do not think it is on the mark at all and i would humbly like to suggest you take another look at those christians lives and see what this unfulfillment is all about that you so blithely speak of.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Two thinks really.
            1. This forum is about a facebook post that stats life without God is pointless or without meaning, yet as you agree there are those among us both theist and atheist who get lost which was DISAPPEARINGHEAD's point.
            2. I see you edited your post to remove your statement about what the OT says about Christians. Good move, I'm glad you noticed how ridiculous that statement was.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That wasn't why i removed it and also a spelling mistake. the OT dispensation was one that endorsed physical prosperity and thus to elaborate becomes more intricate and lengthens the post. Although there are good points in it, it would only have complicated the perception of my post, i was trying to keep it simple.
              In mentioning the NT i was a bit off my posts intention because of the tribulation of that period of time.. i speak of the persecution of jesus followers both by state and synagogue, but i still without those references summed it up neatly.
              Although i enjoyed DH point, i felt it needed to be scrutinized.

      4. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It makes far more sense that those who require a Creator to fulfill their lives have not the capacity or are too lazy to find fulfillment in their lives.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Fulfilling ones life is not a valid reason to be christian. One does not come to Christ because they want a better life and if they do come to God expecting material gain, God will thwart them.
          People may come to God initially, because their life sucks and they want to improve it, which is fine on a minimalist level, God has promised to take care of his own but God never promised a smooth ride.
          Smooth rides are what the fulfilled person thinks his life is full of, indeed some people seem to walk on golden paths never having known God and this is how it is and should be. A person who doesn't know God can amass lots of money selling cocaine but i digress for some reason.
          People not having the capacity to fulfill their own lives is not be ridiculed since we do not know why fulfillment is not realized. Inference need be shelved when just making unfounded assessments of people. Laziness is troublesome, the bible speaks against it. We should never be lazy, it leads to destruction but again, not a reason to deride someone as laziness may be a symptom of fatigue or illness - lack of energy - or frustration.
          Although it makes far more sense that troubled people should have problems and therefore require a creator, this is all well and good because it may have been the very vehicle that brought them to God.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Wait for the contradiction...

            There it is.

            And there it is again. Your first statement says people don't go to Christ for a better life and if they do God will thwart them. Then you say they initially do and then you say it makes perfect sense that they do.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wait for the elaboration

              Here it is.

              A better life, in context.. materialism.. God will thwart them
              You might try to read it twice before answering.
              To further elaborate..
              "One does not come to Christ because they want a better life and if they do come to God expecting MATERIAL GAIN, God will thwart them.
              People may come to God initially, because their life sucks and they want to improve it, which is fine on a MINIMALIST level, God has promised to take care of his own but God never promised a smooth ride."
              Same topic, different slant. Minimalist level pertains again to materialism. How can one have minimalist spirituality and that ever be alright? God promises to take care of his own. I should have put in the scripture about feeding the sparrows and how much more will he take care of his own - again materially.  What we could glean from this on a minimalist level is not to expect worldly riches in abundance, although this is not true in every single case, but i dare say, majorly it is the case.
              I approached the monetary issue because most people think that money enriches and indeed, fulfills ones life. Its an example i thought relevant since it is such a not good reason to come to God, seeking wealth, and God will surely thwart this because the emphasis is about God and not on what God will allow you to buy.
              Hope that helps.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Sure, it helps me see that you don't see your own contradictions spelled out right before your very eyes. You never said anything about material gains the first time you said " their life sucks and they want to improve it". It's not an elaboration when you change the context.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                  brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  oh i see, you cannot read what is posted. You just don't see the words.. perhaps a cataract - i'd get that looked at. Maybe its just a hugely big MOTE. That sounds more like it.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I can read just fine.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Gibberish.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              how so? Care to extrapolate?

      5. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        For one thing it's bull shit. My life is just fine without a god. It;s a lie.

        How can a god add meaning to your life? Your life either has meaning to you or not.

        Now your life may be meaningless without a god, but that's your problem.

    7. sonykuddi profile image61
      sonykuddiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Social networking is a virtual world and there is nothing exist.. so dont take those words in to heart and move on..

      1. Shane7 Smith profile image61
        Shane7 Smithposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        People who use those worlds "exist" They are real, they emotions,------- What way should we take it?roll

    8. brotheryochanan profile image62
      brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Where does fairness come into the scenario. Why are you so interested in fairness as a criteria for what people write.
      Everything has a point of contention. If we follow down your road we will be back to book burning and internet will be no more.
      I read things everyday in which there is no point to it. I see people doing mundane things that just take up time in their existance. People waste moments of everyday, minutes, hours, weeks of their lives, years and never think twice about what they are doing. Our whole lives are full of doing things that are pointless, i.e, cutting the grass only to do it again and again. Of course we can justify this as having a nice lawn but really, what is the point? Where are we our persons actually benefitted?
      Then we spend time worrying about what is fair or why that face book picture was there.
      Time to move on.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        My question was not wether this ignorant posts should be censored but what should be said in the comments to bring the individual to the understanding of how incredibly ignorant the post was. Some said ignore it, some said to unfriend that person, I chose to give my two in a comment, just as you just did.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          fair enough smile

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      Sarra Garrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Rad Man, how far do you want to take censorship?  This is still a free country with freedom of speech.  Just sayin.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Then I should be allowed my two cents.

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          Sarra Garrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly, and you do on many forums.  That's what makes you unique like everyone else.  You are a leader not a follower smile

    10. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
      HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I take it from your comment that you don't agree, but there's actually some merit to that statement. If there was no deliberate creator of the universe, who created existence for a given purpose, if we are indeed just the result of a series of causes that were not the deliberate intention of any intelligent being, then there really is no real point to life. Any 'meaning' or 'purpose' we assign to life is only really a fabrication of our own making to make us feel better about our own mortality, which these evolved reasoning brains make us recognize and realize. So, any 'point' we may think life has if there truly is no God is just something we convinced ourselves of after the fact as a kind of coping mechanism to make us feel better about the reality of the situation. When the actual reality would be that we're nothing more than an intelligent/self-aware flicker that happened for an instant on the cosmic timeline. An instant where a small fraction of the universe became aware of itself briefly before fizzling back out into nothingness. The equivalent of a fart in the wind, ultimately. No matter how many good deeds you perform, or how well you raise your kids, or how well you stick to your diet, or whatever else motivates you or makes you feel purposeful, makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. So, at least in that context, there's validity to that statement.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What you fail to realize is that it's the same for all of us. The difference is you feel you need a daddy to tell you what to do with your life, while I do not. I am a grown man who doesn't need a father figure to give my life purpose. We are but a blip in time on the edge of galaxy that is just one in billions. Recent evidence has shown that just about every one of the stars has at least one planet and about 10% have planets in the sweet spot which could be planets just like ours. Potential billions of earth like planets in just our galaxy resulting in the popping of the bubble of the illusion that a God made us alone and  special.

        Tell me Headly what special purpose has your Father figure given you that gives your time here on earth a purpose that my life is lacking? What project are you accomplishing that no other human can accomplish that the universe will be better as a result of your work?

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Well, if it's how I see it then you and I are both serving the exact same purpose. Every action, inaction, choice, decision has a purpose and meaning. Because free will is the point. How we behave having our very own individual will matters. What you say and do has a long reaching impact, most times beyond what you realize. Like ripples in the water that go on and on before finally settling.

          So whether or not you believe in God, in that context, you're still serving a purpose. You've been given the chance to exist with your own mind. It's a gift. And everything you choose to do, or not do, with that gift has lasting meaning. Whether it's the life of an infant who only lived a day or someone who lived for over a century, whether you were the biggest philanthropist of the biggest maniac, your choices and actions have an impact that matter.

          Personally, I see this life as being the perfect knowledge base to allow for truly eternal free willed beings to exist. If we are all actually interconnected spiritually, then once we're free of these physical forms, we'll know each others' life experiences, actions, choices, situations, as if they were our own. Everyone who ever lived. What better way to convey the mammoth amount of knowledge it would take to wield something as truly powerful as free will as to just let us all live out our existence free to behave as we choose?

          But that's just speculation on my part.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I'm glad you changed your tune because it was rather offensive. You are however still under the delusion that we get to take our thoughts, memories and knowledge with us upon death. These things are products and functions of the brain and thinking anything different is wishful thinking.

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What meaning does a god give your life? Zero unless you place importance on it for some reason. Probably because you think you will live forever if there is a god. But does ever lasting life give meaning to your life? How?

        On the contrary, life is only meaningful and valuable if we do not live for eternity. It's fleeting quality is what makes it valuable.

        And one thing you can be sure of: No one gets out of here alive.

    11. bBerean profile image60
      bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Perhaps the confusion came from the original quote saying "Life", not "A life" like your example in the OP.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Good point. See what I did there?

        Obviously we all know the term life could mean an individuals life or all life, not just humanity. But if it said humanity has no point without a God that would be different. But it still would not answer what the point of humanity is with a God.

        Does anyone have an answer to that? Did God create us because he want's worship? Is humanities purpose to just make God feel better. Seems infantile to me.

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you, I do see what you did there.

          Here's how I see it. Say you're a God capable of creation. You've basically got 3 choices. Choice one, no existence. Choice two, existence with everyone and everything behaving exactly according to your will. Choice three, existence that consists of beings with their own minds and their own individual wills. I don't think the worship thing is for His benefit. That's just what's required. Like in anything else, a company, a country, or a club, there has to be an agreed upon authority, an agreed upon set of rules, goals, parameters. Without a clear chain of command, without clear leadership, it's chaos. Like each cell in your body just behaving however it wants. You wouldn't live very long if that were the case. Our cells need the guidance of a DNA code that's been honed over numerous generations versus each individual cell that only has a lifespan of a handful of days of experience from a very limited perspective to draw from. Humans have shown to be incredible collaborators. We can accomplish great things when we work together towards a common goal or purpose. Apart we're a mess. I just see it as what's necessary if we're going to exist and have our own minds and our own individual wills.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That's all nice and I agree with much of it, but I'm still not seeing your humanities purpose.

            I just happened to be listening to this.
            Kid Rock - Care

            Cuz I cant stop the war
            Shelter homeless, feed the poor
            I can't walk on water
            I can't save your sons and daughters
            I can't change the world and make things fair
            The least that I can do
            The least that I can do
            The least that I can do is care

            I pray and pray for life's salvation
            Faith is tried and true in tribulation
            Love is lost and lonely, check the news
            And with these open arms I'll wait for you

            Cuz I hear screamin on the left
            And yelling on the right
            Im sitting in the middle trying to live my life

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wouldn't you want us? I mean, yeah, humanity has done a lot of truly hideous things. We don't have the best track record. But we do a lot of really cool things too. It's not all bad. There's a lot to love about humans. We can be pretty great. I don't see it needing to be anything more than just that. He made us because He wanted to. And He wanted us to have our own will. But just like anything else, you learn by doing. You know setting your kid on a bike for the first time that they're most assuredly going to fall at some point and hurt themselves. Or put a hole in the neighbor's garage door at the end of your downhill street like I did because I panicked and forgot how to work the brakes. But that's how you learn.

              Here's how I envision it. As soon as we started behaving out of sync with God and the natural world we became separated from Him and it. As well as from each other and even our own selves. Disconnected. The training wheels were off and we immediately became acutely aware of ourselves. It was no longer that zen like state of contentment of being one with nature, guided by instinct and intuition, like being in that zone and present in the moment all the time, but more like we feel about the world now. It's strange to us. Foreign. Our own bodies are strange to us. When those training wheels first came off it was chaos. I mean, within ten generations God was flooding the plains because it got bad quick. But we've come a long way since then. Not that we don't still have a long way to go. There's been some serious growing pains, constant wars, senseless violence. But we've still managed to build nations and find ways of working together. We're slow to learn lessons, for sure, and we're always getting in our own way. We come up with great ideas that look good on paper until that human element seeps in and someone gets greedy or power hungry or arrogant or whatever once the idea's put into practice.

              I think we're just learning. And it's going to get rough, but it just wouldn't be the same if there was no harm done and no consequences. What we do matters. People get hurt. People die. The world's a dangerous place with sharp edges. It's the perfect place to learn, don't you think? If we were being prepared for something bigger, something more, can you think of a better means of preparation than life? After all, it's the challenges that make us each who we are.

              On a side note, I have to say, I never gave Kid Rock much of a chance, but I have to give him credit for that little bit there. I never pegged him as being very introspective.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                His last three albums are fantastic. Everything before that (except for one to two songs) garbage. All he had to do was stop rapping.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ccjjt5OihM
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XfKGI2o_VQ

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The problem is that religions divide us and keep us divided so that we can never work towards any common goals or purpose. That's why the world is such a mess.

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              And the reason for that is because religions are human institutions owned and operated by humans. The whole point to everything is getting us all on the same page, aligned with the one single creator, so that we can all exist as one in harmony. Like a colony of billions of cells working together to form one human body. The tricky part is that each one of us have our own minds and our own wills. Imagine if each cell in your body had the choice of whether or not to adhere to your DNA code.

              Besides, we're humans. Everything divides us. Not just religion. Get a group of people together in one room and before long you'll have two sides. Like one side who insists the temperature of the room is too cold while the other insists the temperature's fine and they're all just being unreasonable.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                So what? There are lots of institutions operated by humans. Fallacy.



                No, that is what is causing the problems in the first place.



                Another silly fallacy.



                Yes, Christians on one side and Muslims on the other.



                LOL. Ridiculous.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks, ATM, as usual your input has been invaluable.

                  Whether you like it or not religion is not the specific problem. Humans choose sides. We figure out who's in the 'us' camp and who's in the 'them' camp. That's how we operate. Even in our following of sports teams, it's the same thing. That's how wars operate. It's our M.O. It's never as cut and dry as that, but that's how we treat it. It's just a human thing.

                  There's a South Park episode where Cartman freezes himself so he doesn't have to wait for the next gaming console to come out, but his plan fails and he doesn't get thawed out until 500 years later. In that future atheism is the norm, but there are 3 different factions of atheists who can't agree with one another and are warring with one another. Funny, but true. That's how it would be. Humans are humans.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, religions are specific problems that do little more than divide humanity into tribes always fighting with one another over their irrational beliefs.



                    Yes, you operate on dividing mankind.



                    Another fallacy.



                    No, it is not a human thing, it is a religious thing.



                    Another fallacy.

          3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Chaos is what creates order. That has become very clear through chaos theory. No god required.

        2. bBerean profile image60
          bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Life here is a vetting process of sorts, to see who wants to be on the team.  As for what God has in mind beyond this, we may have glimpses, but details are beyond our current paygrade:
          1 Cor 2:9 - "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So you guys got nothing either. Going around telling me that LIFE without God is pointless and you guys have no point yourself.

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Nothing? No point? How do you equate taking the necessary steps to allow all of eternity to be populated by countless humans, each having their own individual minds and wills, to 'nothing' or having no point? Do you not think we're worth the trouble?

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                What purpose does humans populating nothingness have? No bodies, no brains. Why?

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Why do you think of it as 'nothingness'? Regardless of whether or not we'll have bodies and brains, do you not see value in humanity or understand why God would want to make us?

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I do see the value, but no, I don't see why a God would make us, that's why I'm asking. Technically once we die we are no longer humans.

                    This is where I think Christians are arrogant. They think they are special and God gave them free will to make decisions as if other animals are not capable. It seems strange to me.

            2. bBerean profile image60
              bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              How did you conclude that from what I said?   

              In my view man was purposely created for a relationship with God, but given the choice to accept or reject that relationship.  We do that in our life here and now.  There is more to it, but even just that is certainly a point and purpose.  We can barely comprehend our current existence.  Beyond this we are told the Creator of that existence, has in store for us much greater things, which we could not yet even begin to comprehend.   

              How is that as pointless as our existence being just a curious accidental blip, without design, intent or purpose, manifested on the  chart of time?

              1. 0
                Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Why does intellectual slavery appeal to you?

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  When did you stop beating your children?

                  1. 0
                    Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Lol.  Dodging the philosophical issue that is indefensible.  Typical conservative strategy.

                    If you believe in God, you believe you exist as a privilege and you have no rights as a human being outside of what God, in his mercy, bestows upon you.  God is in complete control of your future.  He set up the rules, and then punishes you for violating them, and you revel in it!  I think those are right who say Christianity (or any theistic system with an afterlife that punishes) is mass Stockholm Syndrome.

                    If you like being the puppet of a celestial dictator, then fine.  But be honest and admit it man.

              2. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You think our purpose is to make good feel good for making us. Your God sounds needy and high maintenance.

                Not exactly universe changing stuff and arrogant to boot. An all knowing all powerful super creating being made us to keep him company.

                Do you guys here yourselves?

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  How is it not more arrogant to assume that rather than us being created ultimately for His purpose, that instead we are entitled to being the center of everything?  Is it not selfishness to dismiss any possibility of god if he is not there to serve you?  Is it not arrogance to demand that god must be as you imagine he should be, fitting your rational, or that he must not exist at all?  Do you hear yourself?

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't demand anything from God because he does't exist.

                    It's arrogant to think one is special and entitled and that exactly with Christians do. It's humble to think we are but just another animal inhabiting a planet on the outskirts of one in billions of galaxies and that's what Atheists do.

              3. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Okay, then where is He? Bring Him on and I'll have that relationship.

            3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No. Their purpose seems to be to collect all the unknown wonderful rewards. that await them. 72 virgins each perhaps? Even they don't know, but man it must be great.

              Wish I could come up with a ponzi scheme like this. If the marks all think they get their reward when they are dead, you got it made. No way to get caught.

              I've asked this question a hundred times and no one has ever come up with what the value added is when you think there is a god out there. Why is it so hard to answer?

    12. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      This post is very appropriate... for those who subscribe to it. It is also appropriate for those who agree with free speech as the poster is simply expressing his/her thoughts. It is offensive for those who take offense to it (yes, an obvious statement I know). Is it accurate? depends on who is reading it.

      Rad, you weren't wrong for addressing your feelings on it because it was posted on a public forum. so there is no big deal here..
      I'd have a couple of comments for this one myself:

      Even an unsharpened pencil still has a variety of uses.

      Why have a point when the only reason you use it is to stab others with it?

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Deeps, once again well said,

        I for one feel my life has a purpose or a point and I find it strange that someone would post a Facebook comment telling me that my life has no point rather than pronouncing what the point of their own life is.

        Free to speek, sure, but that doesn't mean free speech has to be appropriate, and is it really appropriate to tell someone else their life has no purpose? Why not just say "white people should all kill themselves because their lives are meaningless"? That wouldn't be appropriate even though you may in many countries get away with it under free speech laws.

        All that being said, and I've asked many people the same question without getting any numinous answers. What point to life has God given you directly that that unbelievers don't have? How are you going to change everything?

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          My answer in itself is not an easy one to explain because of the fact that because I have learned a lot about you and other atheists on here from your responses to various discussions here. As I have tried to explain a couple of times, my chosen belief is more of an optimistic opinion rather than a certainty. As such, The point (so to speak) for me is that if there is something better than this I am working toward that. But at the same time, I still live my life and try to do the right thing more because it is the right thing to do rather than out of fear of any punishments. I just rather have a full life for myself so that whether my optimistic (but admittedly unknown realistically) opinion is correct or not (Which I am open to the idea that I might have been wrong) I am still living a full life for myself..

          Now this explanation probably makes no sense to you (and I can accept that based on what I've learned from you) But once again, The way You live your life seems to be fery fulfilled from my point of view so you have no reason to understand, accept, nor subscribe to my opinion. But my way of living is no better than yours.


          But the answer I gave you is more of why I choose to believe.. The actual answer to your question is there is nothing about my belief of having God in my life that is lacking in your own life (from my personal point of view). The only difference is your total lack of belief versus my optimistic opinion (but realistic lack of true knowledge)

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Not when the post and the poster's intent was to be offensive, which they were. They were not just expressing their thoughts, they were making a statement towards those who don't share their beliefs. The post is entirely irrelevant to those who do share and is not meant for them at all.

        As usual though, the intents of such posts usually backfire, and in this case it probably did considering that the statement is completely laughable to those who don't share and does little more than reveal the true nature of intolerance and superiority behind the poster.

        1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
          HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's funny coming from you.

          "They were not just expressing their thoughts, they were making a statement towards those who don't share their beliefs."

          That's all you do. For a good example, just re-read your last response to me. You don't contribute your knowledge to a discussion. You just make comments about the inability of people who don't share your beliefs to understand as well as you do or criticize their viewpoint as 'nonsense'. For someone who claims such allegiance to facts, you sure spend a lot of time stating baseless opinions with absolutely no reference to facts. Intolerance and superiority are your keywords.

          Besides, if you can't see the logic in that statement then you're coming from a place of bias and not thinking about it objectively. If you think about it, that statement is relevant. Life, without God, has no point. Meaning, if life were not deliberately created for a specific purpose, then there is no deliberate point to life. It is just the result of a series of events. It's perfectly logical. What could possibly be the 'point' to life if its as you say? If there was no deliberate effort made on the part of a creator, how could you say life has a 'point'? Any purpose or point you or any other human may assign to life was something manufactured long after life began, therefore it cannot be the 'point' of life. Are you saying life does have a point? Because that kind of flies in the face of what you're usually saying.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And you are doing the same.

            Claiming life without God is pointless instead of telling us what your point is. If the best you have is that you are collecting knowledge for the afterlife that seems pointless as your knowledge would be minuscule compared to the knowledge your God would be able to share.

            ATM was completely correct when he said "the poster's intent was to be offensive, which they were. They were not just expressing their thoughts, they were making a statement towards those who don't share their beliefs."

            If they weren't making a statement towards those who don't share their beliefs it would have been a positive statement, something like "God gives my life meaning by...". I'm still waiting for that sentence to be finished?

            1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
              HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It's not a claim. Just think about it, Rad Man. It's a simple straight-forward fact. It's really very simple. And normally, it's something you'd completely agree with because what it's basically saying is that an existence with no God means there's no goal or endgame that life is evolving towards. Which you've actually said in the past, just in a different context.

              From my perspective you should already know the point. It's about spirituality. Gaining spiritual wisdom and spiritual maturity. Spiritual connectedness with the creator. There's nothing new here. No great breakthroughs or revelations. And again, it's not like my life, as a believer, has more meaning and purpose than yours. You are alive and here just as I am. If there's a point, then it's equal for the both of us.

              Besides, how do you know what the poster's intent was? It's clear that that statement incites a reaction out of you and others because it makes normally logically thinking people touchy and easily offended and completely incapable of comprehending the simplest of concepts. That's how you know emotions are involved and logic is not.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                There is nothing mature about wishful thinking based on myths. That is completely childish.



                You have yet to show a creator.



                Not a chance. Embracing myths and superstitions while remaining ignorant to reality is not equal to understanding and embracing reality.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Well then embrace the reality of that statement. It's something I know you agree with if you just stop and think about it. Wake up. Your so blind to your own bias it's made you completely incapable of recognizing the utterly obvious.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    lol If it's so utterly obvious, why is it so utterly laughable when one puts even an iota of thought to it?

                2. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Do you know why you can't see the creator?


                  http://s2.hubimg.com/u/7765585_f248.jpg

                  Because that's basically what you're looking for. You're like a guy who's been sent to an airport terminal to locate a particular individual, who in reality you have seen many times, who has walked past you and brushed your shoulder, yet you didn't recognize him because you're looking for somebody who looks like that, which of course is nobody.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    A ridiculous non-answer. It's hilarious how believers will tell you time and again how their god is right in front of you if you look hard enough... at thin air. lol

              2. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You are completely missing the point. The point is not the meaning of life, whether or not life has meaning to those who believe in God or not.

                The post was directed at a particular group with a negative statement and not directed at a positive statement about themselves. Would it be appropriate to make the same comment racial or about sex? How does that same sentence sound then (life without being black or a woman has not point.)?

                Isn't it better to make a positive statement and let others find meaning in their own lives?

                And no, I'm not at all emotional about it because I understand it's completely pointless and ridiculous.

                BTW, there is no such thing as spiritual wisdom and spiritual maturity. A spirit can't become mature if it's inherently a forever child. Moral development is a real term with actual implications of which all people can achieve, but to become morally well developed one needs to begin to understand whats actually right and wrong, and not because it's written in a book by God.

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You asked what the point is from my perspective. I told you. Of course you reject it, yet you insist I answer. What was the point of asking?

                  I'm not sure how to make it any more clear, you are the one missing the point. How is the point not the meaning of life? It just said, "Life without God .... has no point." Point as in purpose. Reason. Your comments about racial or sexual comments makes it clear you're completely missing the point and instead are injecting all kinds of irrelevant information. Where'd you get all of that? Where's that all coming from? I didn't say it. That post didn't say it. That just leaves you.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Look closely at these statement,

                    A Life without God has no point
                    or
                    A Life with God gives me meaning.

                    The point is the second statement would have not been a positive statement whereas the first statement would be used only as an insult to those without God regardless of there actually being a God.

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Further, I do reject you belief that God gives you a purpose by helping you to spiritually maturity because once again the term spiritual maturity is an oxymoron, and irrelevant as it wouldn't get you any closer to God in the afterlife anyway. I reject yours as you reject mine.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Facts are irrelevant to you.



            lol There is no logic in that statement and it is completely biased.



            It's complete nonsense and utterly laughable.



            lol So, life with an imaginary super being friend is perfectly logical. Hilarious.



            Whatever point life may have, it certainly isn't in the pursuit and embracing of medieval myths and superstitions and remaining ignorant.

        2. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this



          I can agree with this point too. It does show a marked superiority complex and arrogance

    13. CameronJames profile image59
      CameronJamesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      From personal experience, I can relate to this post - and I actually believe in it!
      I think the post is Facebook appropriate!

      Just my quick 2 cents, but there is really no point (no pun intended) to argue any of this, it is an age old battle that is impossible to change someones opinions on.

      CameronJames

  2. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago

    I know personally that without my invisible purple pet dragon my life is just meaningless.  There would be no reason to get out of bed in the morning if it wasn't for fluffy.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Can you imagine the reaction I'd get if I reposed it with the (out) crossed out?

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        i can do more than imagine.  I've done things like that before, and the response has been outrage and badness.  I think the more important question may be why so many people are able to realize that you're criticizing a belief - not a believer.  They are not one in the same, yet you're supposed to handle religious beliefs with little kid gloves in the interest of "not offending" someone.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image62
      brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Do you have any evidence of this dragon? Has it changed your life? Does it give you a reason to help people, even strangers? Does it make your life better than your life was before?
      Since you know its imagination, because realistically dragons do not exist, everybody knows that, and therefore you would be displaying the same faith in your invisible dragon that christians display in God. I find that kind of ironic, don't you?
      Still, i'd be ever so interested to read about how this invisible dragon has contributed to your life being more meaningful.

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        you don't really understand irony or hyperbole do you?

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          i think its ironic that you can't believe in God but you can believe in an invisible purple dragon and not in a hyperbolic sense

          1. Zelkiiro profile image84
            Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            "My invisible imaginary triplet friend is more betterer than yours! Mine created the universe and is super-powerful and has every best ability ever and would totally beat up your imaginary friend!"

    3. 0
      Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Good thing for fluffy :p.

  3. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 3 years ago

    Sad that people can't get meaning out of life without having to believe in an all-knowing power that is guiding everything.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What's even more sad is that they can't understand anyone else getting meaning without God.

    2. 61
      whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Its sadder that anyone would let this bother them.

      1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
        Uninvited Writerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Doesn't bother me.

        1. 61
          whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I could tell.

          1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
            Uninvited Writerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I was commenting on what the OP believed. Stop being so trollish repair guy.

            1. 61
              whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I have no idea what your talking about but I don't believe posting in a forum is being trollish, if it is then we all must be guilty.

    3. brotheryochanan profile image62
      brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Its not a case of how SAD it is that people CAN"T get more meaning out of life. .. of course we need to define what meaning looks like,.. but to continue... some people for whatever reason or motivation just can't access 'more meaning' in their lives. From alcohol to drug abuse to beatings from an angry parent, to neglect and low self esteem, we need to realize that yes it is sad but in a different and less condescending way than you purport; It is a shame actually. But rather than criticize it is great to know that there is help so very near for all those who actually for solid (and unsolid of course) reasons NEED it. 
      And we can't just ignore those whose lives were not so sad that they couldn't find any meaning in it and came to God regardless of their good situation. Odds are even they are saying how much MORE meaning their life has now that God is in it along with those other 'sad' lives as well.

  4. 61
    lifegamerposted 3 years ago

    Expression...It's what We are, it's what We do.  Our reacts to each other's expressing is the only 'control' we truly possess in Our matters, yes?  Self control...nice 'virtue'...and my experience thusfar has proved out that 'Nice' does matter.  'Nice' meaning that we can express in a win-win way..."I hope your beliefs serve you well."  Period.  Self control needs no further 'justification'.

    Most religious bases...not interpretations or editions, but their base designs...were meant as guidelines of co-existing vs. outright laws of governance.   Guidelines are adaptable, laws not so much.  In each of those 'most', there is a theology that defines the stages of 'Self control'...Hope, Belief, Knowing.

    Hope is the Little (child)...seeking, searching for meaning of Self...playful & enthusiastic.
    Belief is the Big (adult)...the seeking has gone from delight in exploration to "I've found & I'm right"...they simply do not know of the next stage...yet...this is a 'comfort zone', & We all know how difficult it can be to step out of this realm, don't We?
    Knowing is Wisdom...Not adult/not child...It is Understanding.  Understanding that Life is Life...You are here, you cannot 'fail' it, may as well make the best of it...& Nice is simply a strong part of Personal Best.  Others' hopes & beliefs are understood to be as 'stages', and the Wise give them their space to become, just as they needed at their own times.

    When one transitions from this physicality, perhaps it wiser to depart as 'good food'...for future thought, for future guidance, for Future's babes.  The need to hope leaves so little, one's beliefs & evangelics leave little more than more questions.  But Knowers have touched deeper than these 2 combined...they have cared for their bodies, so they are left as good food for babes...they have exampled Good Life, and thus, have left footprints & trails worthy of futures to follow.

    idk, Kids...Oh, wait!  Yes, I do!!! smile  And the dish of the day...'Amazing'.  If one seeks to be no less than Amazing, your Life will reflect the wisdom & knowing that Amazing IS.  Just sayin'...

    <3

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well, that clears things up... NOT!!!!

  5. 0
    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    So, it is simply their opinion. Why let their opinion have a negative effect on your life? Will offering an opinion that will have a negative effect on their life make you feel better? Why?

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Good point Emile, others are entitled to their opinion, while I'm not.

      1. 61
        whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Your opinions are displayed here every single day, how exactly is your opinion being squelched?

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You may notice that Emile suggested I shouldn't respond to the before mentioned Facebook post.

          1. 61
            whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I did notice, how exactly is your opinion being squelched?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Am I not being told to just ignore the post thus squelching my opinion?

              1. 61
                whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Uh no! Do you do everything Emile tells you to do?

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I see, you're saying my opinions are only being squelched if I listen to others and don't give my opinion. Not to worry in this case I gave my mind.

                  1. 61
                    whoisitposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, that seems to be what I'm saying.

                2. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Betcha didn't know it was possible to hypnotize people online. Rad man just thinks he doesn't do everything I suggest. I'd write a hub about it, but you don't give this type of information away for free.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    lol good one, i thought that was very funny

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Whoisit  doesn't give anything away for free... he/she has nothing in their profile to tell us any secrets.

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Now, if I had said something to the effect of 'just shut up, rad man' I could see reason for complaint. What I said was simply be the bigger person. Who gives a rat's behind what others think? Does it really effect you that much?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No Emily, of course not, but it is about the hundredth post I've seen like this, my question is do I let the person know that they are being ignorant as they not even be aware?

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Yes. The most honest approach is the most respected. If they take offense at being told their behavior is perceived as callous then they are doubly obtuse. But, to insult for the purpose of insulting throws you in the position of judging them guilty without benefit of a conversation to clarify.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I simply asked a few questions without giving my thoughts. I think that's reasonable.

      2. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        We are all entitled to opinions. I'm simply questioning your motivation for sharing it. If the person who posted the inconsiderate comment did so naively, what purpose is served by taking offense? What purpose is served offering offense, if none was initially intended?

  6. livewithrichard profile image84
    livewithrichardposted 3 years ago

    When someone posts something to Facebook, they post it to their own wall which is a reflection of who they are and what they believe or what they are feeling at the moment.  It is also posted to your news feed if you have elected to receive your friends posts.  If you don't like what your friend is posting you can always un-friend them, block them, or hide their posts from your news feed.  Problem solved.  That is the great thing about Facebook, you get to choose the people you want to associate with, it's not an forum open for debate, it's personal reflections that friends choose to share with each other.

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
      Uninvited Writerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That's what I usually do when family members post things I disagree with smile

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I guess they can then elect to unfriend me if they don't like me pointing out the obvious.

      1. livewithrichard profile image84
        livewithrichardposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Or if it offends you so much you can go ahead an unfriend them. You're the one with the problem with their views. 

        I don't know how most others choose their Facebook connections but mine consist of old high school and college friends, some old Army buddies and co-workers, and the rest are family.  I don't friend random people or people I have never had a face to face conversation with, there are other platforms for that. My point is, if you can't have an honest and meaningful conversation with your Facebook 'friends' then they are not your friends to begin with... get rid of them.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Why are you bothered that I choose to share my opinion and open a conversation rather than deleting that person? Is that how you treat your real friends. Do you like them until you find out they are Jewish or Muslim?

    3. Shane7 Smith profile image61
      Shane7 Smithposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Just a slight correction "you" can post things on other peoples home page if they are your friend...smile

  7. Dame Scribe profile image60
    Dame Scribeposted 3 years ago

    can you imagine someone in authority saying that? tongue heads would roll ... well... then again ...

  8. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago

    I will have it known that I am not the Facebook friend to whom Rad is referring.  He's not yet un-friended me for the plethora of insensitive religious humor that I post to my Facebook.

    wink

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have no problem people posting stuff about how god loves them or pray for this or that person, but this one seemed different. No?

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No, it was different.  It's one of those...I'm better than you because I believe in God type things. 

        Honestly, though, I wouldn't let it get to you.  People can be dumb.

        big_smile

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I suspect this is one of those times that she's surrounded by like minded people. It's really no big deal to me, but I was just wondering what would have happened if I reversed that post and targeted it towards Muslims or Christians.

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            They'd have been as annoyed as you were. wink  Never take a post seriously when it's condescending in tone like that one.

  9. MelissaBarrett profile image62
    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

    I unfriend people for repeated pro-guns and anti-abortion posts. I don't try to change their opinions but I don't want to see their crap on my page. I unfriended my own mother because of it (I accepted her back a year or so later).  It's nothing malicious, I just use my fb to relax and don't want to get stressed every time I sign on.

    I see no reason to argue, what they believe is on them.  Me choosing not to look at it is on me.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I unfriended close family friends during the pre-election period - on both sides. And, I routinely hide posts from some of my friends or family that are over the top.  The easiest thing in the world to do is keep them out of my news feed and ask for notifications.  If it's something I want to see, I make the decision.

  10. skye2day profile image85
    skye2dayposted 3 years ago

    There is only one GOD that died for our sins only one God that rose from the dead and conquered the grave. There is only one that turns water to wine. Only one creator of the universe and heavens. He is Almighty GOD, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit.  No other gods will save you or died for you. . I pray you come to know Him rad man. Truly I do. He is the prince of peace!!  What if us Christians are right radman? In Christ, Skye.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What if we're not, skye?

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      AMEN and hallelujah!  smile

    3. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      and how do you know that ANY of that is true - or do you just WANT to believe it, so you claim it's absolute fact when, in reality, there is absolutely nothing to back it up.

      Pascal's wager is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.  What if Zeus is right?  He's sure going to be pissed off that you wasted your entire life worshiping some other false god when you could have been praying to him.

    4. 0
      riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well fools are not common especially among gods and no, god cannot die.

      Wine is out of fashion now(It was Dionysus who started it), can he make brandy?

      There is no creator .

      No he is Thor, Zeus and ninja turtles

      If the god cannot save himself from dying how can he save any one? There are god who won't die. And a god should be foolish to die to save human when he can do it just with a word.

      What if the Greeks or Muslims or Hindus are right skye? Your plight will be no better than rad mans. And didn't you read bible? "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)

      1. brotheryochanan profile image62
        brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        If the god cannot save himself from dying how can he save any one?

          Matthew 26:53   Think you that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
          Matthew 26:54   But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
          Mark 12:24   And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
          Mark 14:49   I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
        Couldn't save himself from dying..PUHleeese.....  this is why you are so negative about the bible; you never understood it and this is why you have so very much (negative and wrong) to say about the bible;  because you know nothing about it - as the adage goes.

        This is jesus talking about HIS DEATH in gethsemene before the cross.
        How am i supposed to believe what you say is true when it is openly unbelievable and completely refutable?

        1. 0
          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What this irrelevant quotes got to do with anything? I didn't ask anybody to quote a book that is freely available, I asked a question. Either you know the answer or you don't, but why regurgitating a story book?

          Since you know too much, that is ,how to cut and paste, you should be able to explain. So tell me who asked jesus to die and why? Is your god a deviant that he can't forgive humans without getting his son killed(or playing that drama)?

          "This is jesus talking about HIS DEATH"
          As quoted by bbc, or was it cnn?
          Who wrote the scriptures and why was it written like that? [was the scriptures too were there from the beginning to dictate god?]
          And was Jesus going to commit suicide for fun or was it just a play act and he really didn't die?
          " openly unbelievable and completely refutable?"
          Based on what? Certainly not logic or reason. Now do I have to quote catch 22 or Münchhausen's narrative to counter and make it believable?

          1. brotheryochanan profile image62
            brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You are a lot of work dude.
            The funny thing is that in answer to your question, NOBODY asked Jesus to die. Nobody. Not a person ever. no one. No greater love can anyone have for his friends than he would lay down his life - and this is the God you don't quite grasp.
            As to your ridicule of the book well I just plain do not disucs biblical things with people who deride the bible, so i guess we are done and that just saves me a lot of typing. I will mention that if you took some time to think about your questions above you should easily be able to see where you miss the mark by a very long mile.

            1. 0
              riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Nobody asked jesus to die?
              So was he committing suicide?
              But then why were you quoting about some scriptures being fulfilled?
              Yea its very difficult to grasp,  god doing a drama of death to save humans from himself. If he had any sense he could simply forgive and save and get rid of the drama.
              You might find it very difficult to write without quoting from nonsense, don't worry you will get used to it. You see I was very much tempted to quote from manchausen.

              1. Cock of the Walk profile image61
                Cock of the Walkposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                More nonsense.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                  brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  hmmm.. care to explain why you say this 3hrs after joining hubpages?

              2. brotheryochanan profile image62
                brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                okay one more time, call it the grace of God.
                Its not a suicide and it does fulfill scriptures, check out messianic prophesies on google for more information and you will find out these are what Jesus fulfilled.
                Its not a drama of death, God killed the body he made. He did not take mary's and joseph's son, he birthed the body He (God) would inhabit to fulfill messianic scripture. God did not die just the body did and if you can't grasp why recall that previously animals were being sacrificed then read:
                Hebrews 9:10   Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
                  Hebrews 9:11   But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
                  Hebrews 9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
                  Hebrews 9:13   For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh:
                  Hebrews 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

                God can't simply forgive without some sort of action because nobody would know how or what or who the, did anything and Gods people would still be sacrificing animals and living by the law of moses. So God allowed himself to go to the cross as a last and final sacrifice, this is where the phrase comes in he shed his blood for our atonement. In fact God set this whole thing up 2,000+ yrs before arriving as Jesus.

                Sorry about the biblical quotes, not really, but this is what you get.
                I don't really believe that you believe what you say, its just so silly and shows complete  thoughtlessness.

                1. 0
                  riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  As far as I know, god is not a being to have grace.

                  Who made the scriptures? Who asked for animal sacrifices?
                  It is god himself (according to bible) made the rule, and then he himself decided to make a body and kill. But if you look around there are other religions with gods who didn’t do such blunders.
                  Regarding the prophesies, there are no clear prophesies, other than that which were mis-interpreted to mean what came later. Also as the prophesy is already there, it didn’t take much effort to fit the later story to the prophesy, even then Mathew had to struggle.  It is the same as the Nostradamus prophecies.
                  And why do you suppose I have not read bible?


                  I have read this and I have 5 bibles in three different languages, if I want to read one, without you quoting.

                  Who gave the laws of moses? Why didn’t he give more sensible laws instead of animal sacrifices? Why did he set things up a little more sensibly? And why god want to come as a human to get killed, why couldn't he simply change the laws? After all he did all that because he wanted to forgive. So why didn't he at least set a good law about the 'rules for his forgiveness', or at least change it later. As far as I know, except for the animal sacrifice he hadn't published his rules for his forgiveness.
                  (incidentally,  why didn’t he give a cure to the many diseases instead of banishing the people afflicted with them)

                  Your quoting the bible and inability to think outside it is what I call silly and thoughtless. I bet you use logic and reason in your daily life though you stuff it out when it comes to religion.
                  Your religion and basic elements of it, like god making a body just to kill, to impress the humans and forgive them, is silly.
                  And  an omniscient god should also realize that a human being’s behavior is totally at the mercy of his anatomy and learning(experience) and in a given situation a particular human can behave only that way which he behaved, hence do not deserve any sort of punishment for behaving the way he is ‘programmed’.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Your first line says it all. You simply don't know God and therefore you cannot even begin to answer your own questions about God. You no more know God than you know the other gods who "didn't make such blunders" although it seems you agree with their books however ancient.
                    As to the other errors in your post i will just leave them as errors, but
                    rest assured however that all these questions you struggle with are completely answerable; answered by many christians who seemingly are biologically engineered to understand God in spite of what a silly notion that is seeing as God changes the programming irregardless of the learning experience.

    5. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You're basing your life on a what if? You're hedging your bets, which means your not sure.

    6. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Christians have had 2000 years to show they're right, but have only demonstrated one failure after another.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image62
        brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        hmmm. well there we have it... no good christian has ever been buried. I am amazed at your lack of wanting to be honest and at the lengths you will go too speak evil.  Obviously the great wide brushing over all of 2,000 yrs plus is because of your unending research and godlike powers of knowing.

        I have one word for your post
        gibberish

        have a nice day

  11. LauraD093 profile image84
    LauraD093posted 3 years ago

    Your original question was is this appropriate to post to Facebook? You have been given various answers which when theology is discussed here or anywhere else may not be what you personally believe. So what. The belief or non-belief in a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist or little ole dragon concept is up to each of us as individuals. Neither side is going to sway the other. Everyone is entitled to think what they think-thought like fingerprints should be unique and different for everyone.

  12. bBerean profile image60
    bBereanposted 3 years ago

    This is someone's post declaring their view to anyone who accepts their posts.  Not a personal attack, just a general expression of their perspective.  In fact, it doesn't say anything about believing or not.  It just comments on the meaninglessness of an existence that is only the result of chance.  If there is no God, and our consciousness is just random chemical interactions, it is without purpose or design, so what is the point?  Interesting that you took it personally.




    Now, these comments by you and UW, (others in this thread could have been included as examples as well), rather than speaking to whether a purposefully designed creation has meaning that random chance lacks, seem to be personal. 



    Stating as FACT that someone's experience, relationship with, and belief in their God IS just a figment of their imagination, certainly sounds personal.  You don't know what their experience is, and likely would not believe it was real even if they shared.  How do you know better than them if they should believe it or not, or even if it is real?  Just because you haven't been given the facts to satisfy you and they won't make their God do tricks for you, you feel you can conclusively determine this is all in their imagination?  Is "too bad", kind of like "no point", only directed personally at someone rather than being a generic Facebook post?

    Frankly, I think all of the examples above are people expressing their views, and none got out of hand so nobody should be upset.  I know Brenda is confident enough in her beliefs that expressing your views, even in the manner you did, won't bother her.  What is interesting is why you were so thin skinned about the post on your page that didn't even mention belief, and went to lots of their friends, not just you.  Perhaps it was not about you, just about them expressing themselves.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Show me where I said I took it personally? Show me where I said I was sensitive about it. I'm simply commenting on the fact that it's socially acceptable to take a jab at Atheists by saying that their life has no point. The same comment made towards Christians or Muslims would have been socially unacceptable. Brenda is a big girl, if she dishes it out she can take it as well. It appears to me that you seem to be the sensitive one and are bothered even by my comments that I should be also allowed to voice my opinion. You see, I'm not attacking your faith here, I'm just saying my life can be just as meaningful as yours and to this you find offence?

      1. skye2day profile image85
        skye2dayposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        rad man I am sorry you are so angry. What a waste of time.  Why are you so against God? Why are you stomping all over Him. NO need to reply I am not returning to this comment. Just wondered if you ever really looked in the mirror and wondered where it all started. How can you not see God in the creation? Well I move on. I do hope one day soon you trust God and by faithy you accept him as Lord. It is the only way to Heaven through Jesus Christ.  Peace, Skye

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Bye, I do hope one day soon you will trust yourself to see reality and accept your fait. I am not angry or against any God, I'm sorry your not able to understand, it must be an overly established super-ego trying very hard to become righteous to fit in with your peers.

  13. Zelkiiro profile image84
    Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago

    Lucky for me, I use pens. They always have points and can be replaced for less than a penny!

    1. brotheryochanan profile image62
      brotheryochananposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That would be a nickle in canada smile

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        -how is rounding off going for you? Does it pose any problems at all?

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Nah, we took basic math in school.

  14. Cock of the Walk profile image61
    Cock of the Walkposted 3 years ago

    Why sweat a Facebook post? Get a life . . . one with more meaning.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Ha, that was funny. Thumbs up!!!!!!

      1. Cock of the Walk profile image61
        Cock of the Walkposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm glad you you have a sense of humor. I know all about you!

        http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=RADMAN

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Do I get to pick? I'll go with number 1.

          1. Cock of the Walk profile image61
            Cock of the Walkposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            If the shoe fits . . .

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Rad, man.

  15. healthyfitness profile image83
    healthyfitnessposted 3 years ago

    Im an atheist and my life has a lot of meaning to me. Pictures like this just show how ignorant and oppressive religious folk can be.

    1. Drive By Quipper profile image60
      Drive By Quipperposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      http://markpknowles.com/wp-content/uploads/atheism.jpg

  16. 0
    Sooner28posted 3 years ago

    So if I don't believe in God, there is no point to my life, and I should commit suicide?  There's a lot of nuance the facebook post is overlooking, unfortunately.  I never knew my atheism entailed suicide.

    Christians try to use it as a way to say aha atheists, our beliefs our superior.  Without God, your life has no ultimate meaning at all.  You are a small bit of matter that happens to be conscious of itself, and you will eventually disappear once your matter gets too old.  With this, I agree.

    But we cannot form our opinions based on our feelings toward a subject.  If God does not exist, then no ultimate meaning exists.  What does my emotional state have to do with evaluating the truth of this claim?  Nothing.  Furthermore, the Christian then asserts that ultimate meaning does exist.  It's a coy game.

    1. LauraD093 profile image84
      LauraD093posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Sooner28 haven't seen U in awhile...why don't you start a forum we can really sink our teeth into. It says a lot when you see all...these...comments. lol

      1. 0
        Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Laura.  Yeah, I've been less active lately, and I don't know why.  I need to keep up to date on all of these exciting forums.

        I also haven't read many of the other comments because most of the time, people don't speak sensible on this topic tongue.

  17. My Moments profile image59
    My Momentsposted 3 years ago

    I first saw this on a church marquee.  My first thought was of some poor depressed Joe who saw that and just decided to drive off a cliff.  I find it offensive to be honest, but then again I am not a Christian.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It is offensive and what's more offensive is that we have guys like Headly telling us our life does have no purpose, but his does because he has an invisible father figure giving him instructions.

      1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That's not at all what I said. What I'm saying is that if you're right none of our lives have real purpose that isn't of our own making, and if I'm right then all of our lives serve the same ultimate purpose. We're all in the same boat regardless.

        1. bBerean profile image60
          bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I would present it this way.  No God would mean we are all just a brief happy accident with no eternal significance.  If there is a God, at least from the biblical perspective, everyone's life serves as a testimony to Him.  We get to decide if we will be a testimony to His justice or mercy.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Again with the father figure thing, do you guys realize you sound like little kids trying to please there absentee dad?

            1. bBerean profile image60
              bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Please take no offense, as none is intended, but do you realize believers aren't (or at least shouldn't be), concerned about impressing others and are not embarrassed to stand with what they believe?

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Impressing others? You think that's a Christian thing? A life based on impressing an imaginary father figure has no meaning. Sorry, no offence.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's offensive, I'm sorry you don't understand. A life can have purpose and meaning without God.

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You're clearly missing my point. What I'm saying is that if you're right and there is no God, then you and I being here is just the result of a series of causes with no deliberate purpose or meaning. If that's the case then there is no real point to life. Whether or not you are a believer, an atheist, or anything else. Anything you see as purpose or meaning is just a fabrication of your brain, nothing more. Because the same indifference a god-less universe exhibited in making you will be the same as the indifference involved in unmaking you. Or me. Or anyone/thing else for that matter. Existence, and everything in it, would exist with no purpose or meaning. And anything you or I or anyone else assigns to life as being purposeful or meaningful would be nothing more than the delusion we create for ourselves to convince ourselves what we do is somehow important. You can be offended if you like, but if you just stop and think about it, you'll realize it's just the cold, hard truth. Because everything you are and everything you've learned will die with you. And any memory of you will die with those that knew you. So what does anything you do really matter in that scenario ultimately? Just think about it.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I understand what you are attempting to say and I personally am not offended. I also understand that without your believe in God you feel your life has no meaning, you should understand that I have found enough meaning to continue with life without God.

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I don't doubt that. But what I'm saying has nothing to do with my belief in God. It's just a fact. If a God deliberately created us, if that's how we began, then we began by the actions of a creator for a deliberate purpose, which makes our being here have purpose, whether we know it, believe it, or acknowledge it. There's a reason we're here. And if there is no God, we showed up way too late in the process for anything we think to matter in the grand scheme of things. So anything we convince ourselves of as having meaning or purpose is just a fabrication on our part because we have these thinking/reasoning/self-aware brains that make us aware of our own eventual demise.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I'll ask again then, what purpose has your God given you?

            2. My Moments profile image59
              My Momentsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              "Because everything you are and everything you've learned will die with you. And any memory of you will die with those that knew you. So what does anything you do really matter in that scenario ultimately?"

              So whatever I do while I am living  is negated by my death?  What if I discover the cure for cancer?  I am having a hard time understanding your point.  What about the here and now...does one's life not serve a purpose, it is not meaningful in the raising of children, serving the community, looking out for mankind?  When I die, yes that will mean nothing to me because I will no longer exist. But it might mean something to the generations that go on after me.

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Understand that I'm talking about the grand scheme of things. Let's take your curing cancer example. Let's say you did that. That would mean that your actions will have given numerous people years they wouldn't have had otherwise. To us, you're right, that has meaning. Just as raising good kids now has meaning to future generations who will one day depend on them in some form or fashion. But what does all of that really mean? Existence has been here for billions of years just fine without us. And when we're gone, again assuming there's no God, it will still be here totally unchanged. Ultimately, nothing we did while alive, no matter how grand or small or good or bad, would make any real difference. What we feel is important to us, regardless of a belief in God or a disbelief in God, is of our own making. So, in that context, that initial statement that inspired this whole discussion has merit. If there is a God who created existence for a deliberate purpose, then us being here means something, and everything we do means something. Because existence was created for a reason. If not, then it wasn't.

                1. My Moments profile image59
                  My Momentsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  If raising good kids has meaning to future generations who will day depend on them, so that centuries from now, existence will do fine because of us.
                  When I die, I will go back to the nothing from where I came, so therefore what I do in my lifetime is important and does have purpose to me.  So back to the initial post,  I have never believed in God but my life does have a point.  It may be of my own making, but since I do not believe in God, to me it makes perfect sense. 

                  Great discussion...

        3. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          But free will exists with or without a god.  We all make our own choices regardless of whether god exists or not.  You make your choices in part due to your belief in that god, but that is ultimately irrelevant. V

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Think about that. How is that really possible? If there is no God and no spiritual/non-physical soul that makes up a part of the 'self', then everything our mind is is nothing more than the product of our biology. It's matter and energy and it conforms to all the same laws as everything else. So, how can a bundle of biological material have its own free will in that regard? You're right, we can remember our past and imagine possible futures, so that gives us the illusion that we make our own choices. But if all we are is nothing more than the product of a biological/chemical/physical brain, then it is impossible that that matter can have its own will. In reality that would mean that all of our actions are merely determined by our past experience and our biological make-up, and you could not have actually chosen any differently than you did in any given situation.

            1. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That's simply untrue, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution. 

              Can I leave work and shoot someone?  Yes.  Am I going to?  No.  Why not?  Because I have no desire to, and I'm aware of the consequences should I choose to do it.  High minded animals like apes and dolphins make choices.  You're not claiming they have free will, are you?

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No, what you're saying shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the natural world, matter, and energy. Look at animals. Their behavior is predictable. A bear is a bear and a bird is a bird and a tiger is a tiger. Generation after generation. They can alter behavior, but only when external conditions call for it. Clearly we are different. Even indigenous human cultures are for the most part predictable. You know what to expect because they behave the same way humans have for countless generations with little to no change other than changes that the environment they inhabit call for. Same physical brains, totally different behavior. Those humans who started building cities and roads and wheels and computers and manned missions to the moon, that's different. That's free will. And it's those humans who now populate over 90% of the planet. What other animal do you know that has completely altered their surroundings and their behavior over the course of a few generations? Bees have lived in hives for as long as there have been bees and ants have always behaved as they do. And monkeys and horses and everything else. Humans, on the other hand, lived one way for numerous generations, then we started changing things. And it all started in that same spot that Genesis is talking about.

                Think about this, how do genes or proteins or sugars configure themselves in such a way as to allow you to have your own will?


                http://s3.hubimg.com/u/7075782_f248.jpg

                1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                  HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I didn't realize that pic would be so small. If you can't blow your screen up big enough to read it, here's what it says ....

                  Dog- Do you think the chemistry of the brain controls what people do?
                  Dilbert- Of course.
                  Dog- Then how can we blame people for their actions?
                  Dilbert- Because people have free will to do as they choose.
                  Dog- Are you saying that 'free will' is not part of the brain?
                  Dilbert- Of course it is. But it's the part of the brain that's out there just being kind of free.
                  Dog- So, you're saying the 'free will' part of the brain is exempt from the natural laws of physics?
                  Dilbert- Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't blame people for anything they do.
                  Dog- Do you think the 'free will' part of the brain is attached or does it just float nearby?
                  Dilbert- Shut up.

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Your arrogance is becoming overwhelming. I couldn't get through the first few sentences without stoping. Physics indicates that free will is an illusion. Not only do you think humans are the only ones able to make decision, but you think only special humans are able to do it. I feel like I'm trying to explain to the leader of the KKK why racism is wrong.

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Rad Man, sometimes I really can't tell, so I'm just going to ask. I know you've said in the past you like to challenge people to see what they'll say, so are you being dramatic here as a means of riling me in some way, or are you being serious? Just a few posts up you were saying I was being offensive, then you said you weren't personally offended, and I believe this is the second time you've insinuated that I'm a racist, which I really don't appreciate.

                    But I get it. You spend a lot of time in these forums and that can put you in a more argumentative stance than a conversational one. You don't really think about what the other person is saying. You just respond. Believe me, I've spent enough time in these forums to know this is a perfectly understandable situation.

                    We've talked about this before. I showed you what I was talking about. I gave you references, I referred you to books, I quoted scholars and anthropologists who are speaking of what I'm talking about. I know it's not always the case in these forums, but I promise you that when I speak of indigenous cultures, or ancient cultures and civilizations, any of that, I'm talking about things I've researched. I'm not just making stuff up or talking out of my butt. If you don't know what I'm talking about, don't just assume the worst. Look it up. Read about it. Or maybe ask me what I'm talking about or where I got that from.

                    I think I maybe know where we're getting crossed here and I hope maybe this will help. I understand you see the natural world and 'reality' to be one thing, and all of this God stuff to be some other thing. Like there's this line where reality ends and spiritual fantasy stuff begins. A barrier. If you want to understand where I'm coming from, you have to understand that from my perspective God and science and the natural world and every living thing is all intertwined. There's no separation. God's as absolute as gravity. There's no special humans or special abilities. There's no magic. It's all one and the same.

                    You know what the primary difference is between indigenous humans and those who came from the civilization boom? Contentment. They're content. We're not. That's the difference. We're not better, or smarter, or any more capable. We have the same physical bodies and the same physical brains. And they have the same living soul within them that we do. The difference is we're discontent. We're separated from nature, from one another. They're not. They don't feel the need take land, or even own land. To them the land belongs to everyone and is as connected to them as the air and the seas and the rocks and the animals. It's not theirs to have. That's us. We believe it is ours to have. Ours to take. We cross the sea, 'discover' land, and stick a flag in it and claim it. Nevermind the others who have lived there for thousands of years. We built cities and civilizations through our discontentment. We're disconnected from nature, and feel the need to study and explore it. To understand it. To manipulate it. We're not content with just being. Just living. We have to ponder existence and debate with one another. We're hung up on stuff. On possessions. It's discontentment caused by a separation from nature. We're walled off, so to speak. Similar to the psychological idea of armoring. We wall ourselves off from nature, from each other, and from our own feelings. It's the ego. That's what free will is. It's a will acting on its own behalf, totally disconnected from the natural world it's a product of. Acting more from a selfish 'me-my-mine' standpoint than as a symbiotic participant in something much bigger than us.

                    It's not that it's some super power. It's not that the tree of knowledge was magic. The story of Adam and Eve depicts two people making a choice on their own accord that was of their own will. It was an act of selfishness and it separated them from the natural world. From God. If there is one thing indigenous cultures are not, it's selfish. Quite the opposite. It was an ego that wanted knowledge for itself, and wanted the fruit because it looked like it would taste really good. They weren't content with the whole rest of the garden. Everything else is of God's will and is content just being what it is. All living things are just content being who and what they are and having what they have. We're not. We want that fruit. We want that knowledge for ourselves. We can't just trust that it all works together and it all makes sense. We have to KNOW that. Verify it for ourselves.

                    That's free will. That's us. That's what all the history books describe over and over again. From 4000 BC forward, we began building walls and oppressing women and building armies and making weapons and enslaving the 'natives' and it happened over and over and over again. That's our painful and messy separation from the natural world and from God. Imagine if we all just did what Jesus said and forgave. Imagine if we weren't so eager to be appalled by what people say or think and we weren't so quick to condemn. Don't lie to one another, don't steal each others stuff, don't kill each other, and forgive each other. It's really very simple, it's how everything worked so smoothly before, yet it's just impossible for us to do.

                    I know this is excruciatingly long, but I hope this maybe helps you see things a little better from my perspective. And I feel it appropriate to include this one more bit that I think a Rush fan can appreciate. These are lyrics from Maynard James Keenan of Tool, my Rush, and I think they're fitting here ....

                    Angels on the sideline,
                    Puzzled and amused.
                    Why did Father
                    give these humans
                    free will?
                    Now they're all confused.

                    Don't these talking monkeys
                    know that Eden has enough
                    to go around?
                    Plenty in this holy garden,
                    silly monkeys,
                    Where there's one
                    you're bound to divide it.
                    Right in two.

                    Angels on the sideline,
                    Baffled and confused.
                    Father blessed them
                    all with reason.
                    And this is what they choose.

                    Monkey killing monkey
                    killing monkey
                    Over pieces of the ground.
                    Silly monkeys
                    give them thumbs,
                    They forge a blade,
                    And where there's one
                    they're bound to divide it,
                    Right in two.

                    Or if you'd like to hear it, here it is ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjzHZDPrYKg

  18. LauraD093 profile image84
    LauraD093posted 3 years ago

    This topic should be tagged to "Hot topic status" It has produced some good commentary. As most seem to do when it is a "God versus No-God" forum.

  19. LauraD093 profile image84
    LauraD093posted 3 years ago

    I have been following this forum here and there since it was originally posted. Some of the debate has been fascinating and most of it has been academically and logically stated but I must say the most intelligent statement I have seen is your last line in the above post (quote) "Perhaps they should be left alone." (end quote) Although I think this applies to all those who have joined into this forum (including myself) no one is going to change how they feel/think about this.This horse is almost dead.

  20. grand old lady profile image90
    grand old ladyposted 3 years ago

    Actually, Muslims believe in God and wouldn't be offended by this statement. I have heard many devoted Muslims talk about God, some saying "God" and others, "Allah."  There would be a bigger issue if the FB post said "Life without Jesus..." I like the post and agree with it. I also get lots of posts about Christians who converted to Muslims (from my Muslim friends) and discussions from Jews. Plus, I get comments from atheist friends. But maybe it should all be taken in  the spirit of friendly debate. I take no offense at any of these religious nor atheist FB posts because I know the people who make these statements and they are very, very good people. And they take no offense when I make statements about my beliefs, too.

  21. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago

    What lie? What have I said that you know for certain is a lie? Name just one thing you can prove is a lie, or even factually inaccurate.





    The brain controls what people do, right? The brain is a physical/biological organ, correct? So at what level can physical matter make a choice? In any given decision you weigh the pros and cons given what you know, your past experience, imagined potential outcomes, etc. In what way could physical matter have responded differently in any given situation than it did? There are laws that govern the behavior of physical matter and energy, with definite, consistent outcomes given the conditions. So, in what way can the behavior of matter be the responsibility of the individual? It's all matter, right? At what level, or in what particular fashion does matter have to be configured, so that it should then be held accountable for how it behaves?




    PHYSICAL evidence of a SPIRITUAL realm. It's not like Ghostbusters where Egon can build a hand-held device that can somehow detect ectoplasm. It's spiritual, as in non-physical. Thousands of years ago the writers of the bible made that distinction. In spite of that, based on the findings of the physical sciences, you deem yourself qualified to tell others that there is no spiritual aspect to life and that anyone who thinks so is delusional. See the problem? That's like looking at a picture of a high school dance and saying, "See, there's no music."





    The social institutions, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization according to the Sumerians, the inventors of civilization and many of the foundational discoveries we still use today, say they did all of this because they were following the decrees of their gods.





    Saying someone is 'ignorant' assumes that they lack known knowledge. That there are known facts that they are unaware of. And delusion is a false belief invalidated by evidence. By the same standards in which you use them, the same could be said of you. That your belief that this universe and everything in it could just come about on its own is ignorant or delusional. Neither can prove the others' statements for certain.

    Like it or not, acknowledge it or not, you and I are in the same boat, my friend. We just hold different beliefs in regards to what is not yet known.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      As I said free will may be an illusion.

      1. Suzy Crumcakes profile image59
        Suzy Crumcakesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Deleted

        1. grand old lady profile image90
          grand old ladyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think you made a good point, Suzy Crumcakes. To believe that free will may be an illusion would be equivalent to saying we aren't responsible for any choice we make or anything we do.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            But I didn't say we aren't responsible for our actions or thoughts, What I did say is that we may make the same decisions every time all the circumstances are the same. That's why I said it may be an illusion. We are responsible, but given the same scenario, same brain chemistry, and circumstances the decision may be the same every time.

            1. grand old lady profile image90
              grand old ladyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              How then do we learn from experience? If you make the same decision every time, you may sometimes develop a harmful pattern in life. If you made a wrong decision that hurt you in the past, in a forthcoming similar circumstance you alter your choice because you learned from your past experience. Also, what about regrets? Are there times you look back at previous choices and regret what you did?

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Of course you will make a might make a different decision because the next time your brain chemistry will be different because you are both older and have learned from the previous mistakes.

                I'm not even sure if I believe it or not, but it's possible that free will is an illusion in that in any given time our decision will be the same. If we were able to make the same decision a million times over without knowing the results we'd make the decision the same each time.

      2. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes you did, and you're right. It may be. And if that is the case, everything humans have ever done was actually not by choice. Including religion and believing in a spiritual realm. The mind, and everything born of it, was just a series of events determined only by biological machines behaving the way their make-up determines in relation to the environment. It's all natural.




        So, in what way do we have control? If the decision was determined by the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances, how are we responsible? Could we have controlled the scenario, because each decision we made in every moment leading up to that was also the product of the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances. Chemistry too, because our brain chemistry is also determined by our genetic biology and what we choose in each moment to put into our bodies, which of course were choices mandated by the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances.

        You can't have it both ways. Either we're in control or we aren't. And if we are in fact in control, then that doesn't jive with the laws of physics. Not if there's nothing more to us than physical matter.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, you're not understanding. I didn't say we were puppets and our decisions are already made. I said it's possible we will make the same decision in every single instance. It's still up to us to make the right or wrong decision, but if given the chance we will make the same decision a million times over.

          A few days ago a gentlemen here in Toronto was stabbed in the throat on the subway when coming to the defence of a few people being harassed by a troubled 20 year old moron currently out on bail. That scenario may play out the same no matter how many times it run and everyone would still be responsible for there actions.

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            See what you did there? You completely miscomprehended what I said, repeated back nonsense as my viewpoint, then argued against that strawman. Then say I'm the one that doesn't understand. In this case your strawman version of my statements is "I didn't say we were puppets and our decisions are already made." That's not at all what I said. 'Puppet' suggests someone else is in control. And I didn't say our decisions are already made. I said exactly what you did. That the decision is determined by the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances. I'm sorry you feel it necessary to resort to such gimmicks.

            You said 'it's still up to us to make the right or wrong decision'. Explain that. You're not making any sense. It's all still just matter and matter behaves the same way every time. There's no deciding whether or not to behave this way or that. Water freezes when the temperature drops below its freezing point. There's no deciding whether or not its going to. If the conditions are different, like the pressure level, that value will change accordingly, but it's always going to behave the same way given the conditions. Having similar past experience that helps inform another similar decision changes the conditions, therefore possibly changing the outcome. But its still matter behaving the way matter behaves.

            And if that's the case then every brain that's ever made a decision in a given moment was just matter behaving as matter does. Each and every time. There was no individual in control of whether or not their brain matter was going to behave this way or that. It's going to behave however it behaves given the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances. So, that means, all things done by humanity, all throughout history, was never in anyone's control. It was just matter behaving as the natural laws dictate given the conditions.. scenario/chemistry/circumstances.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You're almost there, but you're just missing the necessary illusion part.

              Looking back "puppets" was not a good choice of words as it does imply someone giving direction and that is not what I meant. I meant someone responsible for our actions.

              Look back at the example I gave. Each person would still be responsible for their actions even though they would make the same decision for the same exact event. They are responsible for their brain chemistry whenever possible. If one goes of their meds and commits a crime then they made the choice to go off their meds.

              I have to admit this is difficult to articulate. But remember that free will may be a necessary illusion. The illusion is necessary for us to make the correct decision. Without the illusion our decision may be different.

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Let's look at what you just said. Let's examine the person who goes off their meds and commits a crime scenario. Just like every other decision, the decision whether or not to take their meds could not have been within their control either, right? That decision, like all others, was the result of how that person's brain responded in that moment given the conditions. If that's the case, then it applies to every decision. Whether that decision be to take or not take the meds, or whether or not to commit the crime. You can't say that a person doesn't have control in a given decision, but then say they did have some sort of control in the conditions in which the decision was made. Because every decision that played a part in establishing the scenario/brain chemistry/circumstances for a given decision would be subject to the same process. It can't be either/or. It's one or it's the other.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No it's not. Just because we would continue to make the same decision doesn't mean we aren't responsible. We are responsible because we should know right from wrong. Once again, it's necessary that we are under the illusion that we are making a decision.

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    What? If we're not actively making the decision, if free will is just an illusion as you said, then what difference would knowing right from wrong make? The brain is matter. That's it. Matter behaves the way it's going to behave. How does right/wrong even play into it in that regard? Even what you establish as right/wrong, in whatever way you did so, would be subject to the same conditions. No actual control. If your concept of right/wrong plays into a decision, then you didn't have control of it in that moment, nor did you have control in establishing the parameters in the first place. It's like a rock rolling down a hill. It can't consciously change its course. Its course is determined by the conditions of the environment.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Did I say I was even specifically referring to you?



      You're question is meaningless unless you define "level" - what do you refer?



      Responded differently how? What given situation? What are you talking about?



      I have no idea what you're asking?



      What levels? What fashion? What does configure mean? What are you talking about?




      Yes, and the non-physical is indistinguishable from the non-existent.



      And, they were completely ignorant about the world around them. They knew nothing but myths and superstitions.



      That makes no sense whatsoever.



      LOL. No, they weren't. Sumerian mythology has many gods, one for each thing. The gods created humans for their servants but set them free to do as they please when they became unmanageable.



      That is an argument from incredulity.



      Found one.

      1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        So, no then? No, there's not a single thing I've said that you can prove to be a lie or factually inaccurate? You say all the time how obvious it is that I don't understand. If that's the case then there has to be something I've said that you know to be factually wrong that makes it so obvious to you that I don't know what I'm talking about.

        What level do I refer? Is it at the cellular level that brain matter is able to behave in a way that's contrary to natural law, thus giving us control and making us accountable? Is it the neurons that actually have control of behavior? Is it at the molecular level? The atomic level? Subatomic? At what point in the process was there an actual decision made that thereby makes the individual responsible for that action? Because it's all just matter and matter behaves according to the laws that govern it, right? Nothing could have happened any differently than it did because matter behaves in predictable ways. Even if we don't yet understand it well enough to predict it. The natural laws are absolute and matter always behaves accordingly.

        So, that would mean, in the specific moment when a decision is made, if that exact same moment were able to repeat, the same situation, same conditions, same mental/chemical/emotional state, the same choices to decide between, it would not be possible for the individual to have chosen differently than they did. They would choose the exact same way every time because their actions are actually just a biological result of the brain's function. The choices available to us that we 'choose' from only really give us the illusion that we had a choice and could have chosen differently. When in actuality, the material brain was just behaving as it always does and the resulting choice is just the sum of its make-up. So, if we're able to justifiably hold someone accountable for their actions, at what point in the process did they actually have conscious control? Could they have altered the outcome if the outcome was just matter behaving as it does?

        As for the Sumerians, yes, they were decrees by the gods. Each known as a 'me'.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29. You're right, the Sumerians believed they were created by these gods to serve them, and they were the work force that carried out the labor orchestrated by the ruling class, which was mandated by the 'mes'. They established their system of government, awarding kingship, among other things.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You are making it too complex for yourself.  Cause and effect make you responsible. A mad man is responsible for his acts. We do not old them responsible but they did the act. A wild dog bites kids, we take it off the road. Cause and effect. It did an act and is responsible for it. So it is a dumb animal? So what?

          The doing of the act makes you responsible for the act and all acts have consequences.

          Even if you do not have free will you are still responsible for your actions. How could you not be? You did them.

          Why did you do them? Generic predisposition mixed with history and environmental conditioning. Cause and effect. Try living as if you are not responsible and see how fast cause and effect slap you down.

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            But that's just it. Listen to what you just said at the end. 'Try' living. To say I can 'try' is to say I have control of the situation. That what I do, or try, is not just the result of genetic predisposition mixed with history and environmental conditioning, but something I am in control of. So how is that possible?

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Hardly. You have a range of possible choices. You react to stimulus. You reacted to my words by trying to find an example of control. In effect my post demanded a reaction. Cause and effect.

              How you react depends on your conditioning. From the range of possible choices your conditioning narrows it down to one. You only potentially had all those other choices. Not actually. Your conditioning makes them unavailable in those particular circumstances. 

              Processing new information changes out range, (learning) but it takes away as many possible choices as it creates. Example: Before saint Paul had his vision he helped Rome kill Christians. After his conversion that choice was no longer open to him.

              See how that works?

              You do things because you like to. It looks like free will. You want to do this. You may get excited about it. But you do not choose your likes and dislikes. You like ice cream or you do not. You are conditioned or predisposed to, which ever it is in your case. Just because you want to do something does not mean you have free will. You do not choose the reason you do things.

              You have will, to be sure. Lots of it. It is a manifestation of your conditioning.

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I understand all of that. It's basic determinism. So then, how do you suggest I 'try' living as if I am not responsible? Isn't it not really up to me?

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  What is you?

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, good question. Exactly. That's the whole point I'm trying to get across. ATM was speaking about religion being this problem that needed to be eradicated. That it's a major cause of a lot of our ills. So, I asked him if he really thought humanity would be 'better' if we were able to convince people on a global scale that all this religion/God stuff is nonsense. If every individual alive was going about life with the understanding that there is no real purpose to life because we're just here due to a series of events, that there's nothing beyond death, and that we're all just the product of our make-up and not actually capable of behaving differently than we do. He asked what I meant by that.

                    And if that is the case, then it makes one wonder at what point we do have control, if any. What do we hope to accomplish by having these discussions, for example. True, you could increase knowledge and change behavior in that way by, as you say, adding and removing choices. But if it's as you say then even choosing to have these discussions isn't actually in our control either. So, if that's how it's going to play out that's how it's going to play out. We don't actually control any of it.

                    The point I was driving at is that if it is true that there is no God, no deliberate creator, if we are all no more than the product of a series of causes, then coming to that realization essentially robs us of everything we hold dear in regards to being human and reducing it all down to mechanistic happenings with each of us simply going through the motions as passive participants.

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Listen. Have you not read Dorian Grey?

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No, I have not. But if it speaks of these matters then my interest is piqued and I'll add it to my ever-growing list of books to read when I can find the time. At my current pace, it's going to be a while.

                    Can you maybe give me the cliff notes as it relates to this?

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              oh yes, your feeling of control. It's your conditioning that is control. But it is very ordered and you have the illusion that it is you that is in control. So what is you? What is in control? What part is you?

              I'll answer that. You are your conditioning. That determines your behavior,

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Maybe its just true of yourself.
                If so, I have way more free will than you do!

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Nah. It's you too. lol...

                  1. grand old lady profile image90
                    grand old ladyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You wish. Must be lonely in your world of conditioning.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          We are dealing with your inaccuracies as we go along through each post, pay attention.



          Sorry, but no one made that decision at any of those "levels"



          Sure, why not? You're talking apples and oranges and speaking from a position of incredulity.

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Dude, you kill me. You should know I see through your tactics. I understand why you keep your responses vague. Getting into specifics opens you up to exposing your true level of knowledge or understanding. It's okay to just admit you don't know, don't get it, or maybe just haven't really thought about it. There's nothing wrong with that, and, while I can't speak for everyone, I certainly won't ridicule you for it. I don't know if it's a pride thing for you, where you find it difficult to admit you don't know or don't understand something, or if you feel you're on some sort of mission here for the 'greater good', but it's clear what you're trying to do. You make vague, pithy statements to cast doubt on the others' credibility in the eyes of anyone else who may be following along without actually proving their statements false with substance. It's a sneaky tactic that you shouldn't have to resort to if your viewpoint is the real truth. What good are you really doing if you have to resort to such antics? What are you hoping to accomplish?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Because your questions are vague.



              Specifics allows one to be specific and not vague. You need to be specific.



              You are the one who has no idea what they're talking about, that is why your questions are vague.



              Hilarious, no one here is destroying your credibility other than YOU. lol

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Let me try again. This is in response to your question, "Where do you get the idea we are not accountable or cannot conduct ourselves?"

                At the foundation of science is the fact that matter behaves in consistent/reproducible ways in relation to the conditions of the environment it's in. Our brains are made of matter. While it may seem to us that we have choices and play an active role in what we choose to do, because matter can only really behave according to its nature, it stands to reason that anything we ultimately choose to do was actually the only behavior possible. To say we could have chosen in some other way means our mind is somehow able to alter the behavior of matter. So, how does this make sense? How can we control our conduct and be held accountable for how matter behaves? How can we be 'in control' if 'we' are the product of brain matter?

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The flaw in your argument is a fallacy from incredulity and the fact you assume all matter is the same. It isn't. And, whatever form matter takes, it does not violate any physical laws.

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image87
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I agree matter does not violate physical laws. That's my whole point. If you're right and material existence is all that there is, and all that 'we' are is nothing more than the product of a physical/material brain, then true free will is not possible. Our behavior is determined by our make-up. That's why I say that from your viewpoint we cannot 'conduct' ourselves or ethically be held accountable for what we do. Because without a spiritual/non-physical element at play, we cannot actually be in control. We, being made up of purely physical matter, can only behave as matter behaves, within the confines of the physical laws.

  22. ytsenoh profile image91
    ytsenohposted 3 years ago

    On the original question, I would say it is not inappropriate only because generally all content on Facebook is all kinds of things--appropriate, inappropriate, funny, not funny, mundane, i.e., "I have a migraine today..."; it is a place of discourse for those who need to be heard, a place for people to share family photos...it is a crowded room of many different types of personalities who believe many things.

    1. grand old lady profile image90
      grand old ladyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well stated, ytsenoh.

 
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