This is not a discussion about discrediting the existence of God or discrediting the church as an institution of God. This serves to provide clarity on the issue of Sunday worship and it's legitimacy.
Although it is true that the hebrew/jewish sabbath is on saturday this is under the Law of Moses. We are no more under the Law so making saturday the sabbath is moot. Jesus is actually our sabbath now and that is very different than just one day being sabbath, it makes everyday sabbath and every day a day of worship. Jesus is our rest.
Jesus went to the synagogues on saturday, when they were open because that is where the people of God were. Its a good idea for christians to fellowship and be amongst other christians and if this is easily found on sunday, no harm, no foul.
All the laws must exist together, other wise, like a chain, its useless. If one is discredited then all are useless.
I have thoroughly examined your prose above and found many logical fallacies and contradicting. statements You firstly implied that we are no longer under the law of Moses then you later implied Jesus is our Sabbath, which makes everyday the sabbath; those statements would have instituted even greater misconceptions amongst persons seeking the truth in which sense the church is now pushing to have Sunday recognized as the sabbath. It is not a basis of the eradication of the sabbath but to which day it is now attributed to. The argument about the law of Moses that is based on whether or not the sabbath is applicable is a dying deception of Satan to delude one's perception, thwart it. You see, there are only two things in which he would delight himself, the thwarting of scripture causing misconception and the usage of the church to shift the sanctity of the day. There are NOT 9 commandments, there are 10. You cannot acknowledge 9 and neglect the other or perhaps like the Laodicean church age we are in, you may choose to break one commandment in two separate parts to account for 10 whilst exempting the only commandment which says "REMEMBER" of all 10. We have been so deeply indoctrinated by the doctrines of man that we have failed to emerge from our own human conditioning and seek excuses to justify our short comings. If God required his commandment to become obsolete it would not have been instituted to begin with, it would then have been stated as a guideline rather than having it instituted.
The law of Moses is not temporary as your conditioning has caused you to believe.You may argue that it is done away with but remember in the NEW TESTAMENT:
Luke provides a significant indication of Sabbath keeping in his Passion narrative. He describes how the women followed their Lord to the Cross at the risk of their lives. After seeing their Lord laid in the tomb, they hastened home to "prepare spices and ointments" because "the sabbath was beginning" (Luke 23:54-55).
It is noteworthy that in spite of their devotion to their Master, the women felt they could not proceed to embalm His body, because this would have meant violating the Sabbath. Thus "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56) and then at early dawn on the first day of the week they went to the tomb to continue their work. The fact that Luke takes pains to report that the women felt that they could not violate the Sabbath even to give honor to their dead Master, is indicative of the high regard in which the Sabbath was held at the time of his writing.
Well seeing as I'm not Jewish I am under no compulsion to follow practices given to the Hebrews whilst wandering in the desert. Seeing as I no longer attend Church on account of finding it rather dull and I no longer believe much of its doctrines, I am under no compulsion to follow its practices given by men. Thus every day to me would be a sabbath.
The problem you encounter with your reading the NT is that you do not discern what the disciples of Jesus did out of habit or tradition. You read a scenario like what you mention and claim it is a practice.. therefore we must do it to... but this is not the case. Not all things done in the NT are teachings; take for instance the casting of lots by Peter, a well known inner circle of Jesus, fighting in Gethsemane and cutting off an ear (thats obviously wrong, right?, then choosing Matthias as the replacement apostle (whom we never hear of again) - God chose Paul and even baptism in water: shown as being something which was done. These are not examples of what we should do but rather they are exhortations of what they did do, howbeit somewhat embarrassing criteria, for those who in the further light of the bible know better. Just because the women did not want to violate the sabbath, does not make it a doctrine that we must not violate the Law because quite sensibly and obviously, Jesus has died and is risen. Jesus himself showed so very clearly in other passages, sabbath is become spiritual and not physical.
The issue that you believe in a literal satan astounds me, but tell me, which is it; fallen angels or the spirits of dead people? I assume you believe in a literal hell also and again tell me; deep inside the earth or some part of the universe blocked off from heaven?
Recall in acts at the famous council in jerusalem:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
This is James speaking, who is and his church are very zealous of the Law:
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
In james' law and jesus combined church there is no mention of this hallowed sabbath as you proclaim it. If it were to be a hallowed day, this saturday sabbath it would have been mentioned.
Peter described the law under the NT quite well when he said:
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Speaking of the Law of Moses.
I am sorry to debunk your saturday sabbath so quickly.
That silly thwarted prose of yours couldn't even debunk a situation that required the simplest of logic to solve...YAWNS... an apparently misguided cognoscente you are as you seem to have good grasp of the Bible, but my my, my friend- your understanding is poor.
Now now, there is nothing more I can do for you. You are a lost soul, hopefully you don't end up blaspheming anytime soon, if so, you won't even have ignorance to save you. The illiterates aren't those who are unable to learn, but rather, to un-learn and re-learn.
It is not an accident that the great decline of Lord’s-day observance has occurred at the same time that unbelief, apostasy and wickedness have permeated mankind. The love of God and of His day go hand in hand. When the love and fear of God no longer exist in man's heart, His day is not honored. You my friend - you are like a fool that builds his house upon the sand-your foundation and belief is weak!
Crumble it will. I will pray for you.
Ex.31:13. The Father said that His Sabbath were a sign for all of our generations. By observing them we learn that it is He that sets us apart. Did Paul change this also BJ? Where is he getting all this authority? If there is a difference of the instructions of Turah between Paul and Yahuah, who do we follow? The one who made the law or the one who was suppose to be following the law? So again, when was the Sabbath day? With the rule of pagans like Constantine, we have been introduced to a new question: when is the Christian sabbath? The amazing part of the Sabbath is that we fail to realize, it was a gift from the Most High. If He created a day by resting, we should easily be able to find the command to abandon this day and not be under law...Heb.4:9;Gen.2. Heb.4:1-10 Your beloved Paul even tells you the importance of the Sabbath. Acts13:14,27,42-44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Luke6:9; Mark2:23-28. How do we as "believers" miss all these Scriptures with no Sabbath change? Do I need go on? Why not. Isa.56:1-7, the Most High will show favor even to gentiles that honor His Sabbath. Isa.58:13,14- keeping His Sabbath brings you into the inheritance of Jacob. Isa.66:22,23-Sabbath will be kept in the New World. Matt.12:1-8, Yahusha is master of Sabbath. Matt.12:10-2, it is allowed to do well on the Sabbath. Matt.24:20-Sabbath needs to be known in the end days. Mark1:21- Mashyach observed Sabbath (Luke4:16,31). Ex.20:12-20-theSabbath is forever. Neh.10:31, no buying or selling on the Sabbath (Neh.13:15-22). Jer.17:21-27, keep His Sabbath by all means. Sadly all too many "believers" never investigate and they are breaking one of His commands. But, let us continue to pick and choose which scriptures we find fit our personal lives and the hell with the rest, all in the name of "Jesus". Billy Graham was said to have acknowledged the Sabbath truth but stated, " If I were to teach this truth, I would lose too many of my listeners." He had 40 million listeners. Many will say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday in honor of the resurrection and others will say it was nailed to the tree (cross?). Others say any day will do as long as you keep one. And still others say as long as you do everything to the glory of "god" the Sabbath is good as kept. Yet still others will say it is legalism. Some more will say those who keep the 7th day are trying to live self-righteously. You are trying to be righteous. I thought that's the way "believers" were suppose to try and live (righteously). Worst of all, and this is becoming more popular by the decade, the 10 commandments are gone. We are living under grace, the NT covenant. His laws are written in our hearts and minds. Who are we kidding? No wonder they are laughing at us. We "believers" can't make up our minds. If it weren't so serious, it would be comical, I would be laughing also. The fact of the matter is what is popular is not always truth and what is truth is not always popular. I know, I should have written a hub. Every time I try, they say my stuff is too much like someone else's. So I'm sure you have heard all this before. Have a good night. Shalum
Ha-ha-ha! That's great!
Believers have the law in their hearts! Ha-ha-ha!
Homosexuals have been allowed to preach in churches! GOD DAMN THE CHURCH OF FUCKING PEDERASTS.
Personally, I do bot care you men fuck each other. AS LONG AS YOU DO IT IN A HIDDEN PLACE, LIKE RATS, IN SILENCE. AS LONG AS THIS IS NOT EXPOSED BY FUCKING YOU TO THE PUBLIC, TO THE MAJORITY OF NORMAL HUMANS. IF YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR RIGHTS ABUSED OR OTHERWISE VIOLATED, KEEP YOUR SHEET WITHIN YOUR POCKETS. IT IS NORMAL THAT PEOPLE START TO ABHOR AND VOMIT WHEN SOMEONE GETS HIS SHIT OUT OF HIS POCKETS.
I'd delete that quickly, if I were you. It is, most likely, ban worthy.
Jesus did not die to allow homosexuals and other ill-sexists to go out from darkness to light. Jesus did not die to permit man-fuckers teach us, normal men, how to worship god. They used to be stoned. Now they want to be treated like normal humans despite the fact thay are not. Even pagan Romans who crucified Jesus hated pederasts.
Define normal. You may be channeling Paul, not Jesus, in this little tirade.
A normal man creates a family and raise children, he lives with a woman and inserts what needs to be inserted into that woman, he lives according to what god said him is right in terms of sex and relations between sexes.
Do you mean Jesus would approve homosexualism? Paul did not eventhough he did not care about the law any longer. Jesus said the law is intact, so his views must be still stronger.
Funny how some believers wonder why the rest of us reject religious teachings. Too much hatred.
I can't even fathom the thought of homosexuality.
I'm feeling that good ole' time religion here, folks, christian love at it's finest.
Ha-ha-ha! Jesus teaches to love even enemies. But sins should be abandoned any way. Do not tell me homosexuals are poor guys because Christians and Muslims and Jews hate them. They are poor because they love to insert into or be inserted by another man. This is a misery by and in itself. If I do not like homosexuals, it does not mean I would not help one in case of need. What I am saying is no evil should be admitted on account of god's grace and love.
The problem is homosexuals are not satisfied with having equal human and civil rights and liberties, they want everybody to recognize it is ok when men insert in one another. Porn, where men insert in women, is by no means a good thing. Extremities should not be exposed. It is as if someone pissed on you and, instead of saying sorry, says it is ok. More, if I would tell him not to piss towards me, he would say I am violating his rights.
once again you reply without research. Where does it or he say he is christian? no hubs, joined 7 days ago and straight to the christian forums, just like you troubled.. no hubs.. spends copious amounts of time in the religious forums. Maybe this is just you with another account being dishonest again or maybe its another just like you, so you shouldn't be surprised that you want to slurr all christianity because of this mans actions... this is why people like you start wars: no research, a big mouth and nothing to say that is supported or necessary.
You two should go for drinks.
Castlepaloma is wiser than you.
True, your actions here are more than enough to show Christianity at it's finest. lol
Yah lets skip over your actions as whatever you are - undefined at present i guess - as its finest. i like the way you point the finger in another direction away from yourself, but denial is a honed practice of yours. Its just a way of getting the attention off what you do, isn't it. More dishonesty. i am sure you would have eschewed Jesus for reprimanding the pharisees or the prophets for speaking badly about the sinful ways of Gods people. If someone comes across as confident and matter of factly i am sure you will tag that as arrogant. Own any mirrors do ya? To bad we are not just push overs and speak our minds or timid. In my accurate assessment of you there is no lie. And you do speak without thinking more than often.. like the above post for example. And really? starting a post with the word true. C'mon really?
have a nice day, whatever nice means to you. And that nervous laughter of yours is coming across like it belongs on a therapists couch.
I'm sure you would deeply insult someone who passed away simply because they didn't share your beliefs. And, you did.
More childish insults. Really feeling that Christian brotherly love.
oh now you think you are worthy enough to receive christian love, maybe from those who have not interacted with you previously or read your posts for the last 19 months . You stand as a pharisee, a traducer and mocker of all that is biblical and i tell you plainly whazzup. Be man enough to realize truth when you hear it and analyze your ways, then speak; but as you do so often, you just speak.
That would be one of the last things I'd want to receive as it is a miserably failed concept, easily seen in your posts and that of other so-called Christians,
As it should be. The Bible deserves to be mocked and ridiculed as do the beliefs of those who follow it, or at least, claim they follow it.
You have yet to speak a word of truth.
and your post shows how jaded you are. You take the stance you do and deliver it in the way you do and then when you receive your just reward you criticize everyone else but yourself. This is typical of a certain kind of person and a hypocrite. This is completely what you represent. So suck it up dude and stop whining, pointing fingers, blaming others for your justly deserved recompense. And please stop lying as some feeble attempt to justify your unjustly self.
The bible does not deserve to be mocked, it deserves discussion from people with at the very least know an inkling of what they are talking about and are open to learning - which you are not - you haven't learned a thing neither do you want to. The bible deserves to be scrutinized intelligently with good points brought up on both sides. None of this do you have to offer. Your defensive stance is one who is up against a wall and on a ledge frantic to be saved from falling and all the while blaming others for your being on that ledge, but you are unwilling to leave the ledge. The only thing at risk here is your sanity and it may be to late for that.
If i miserably fail at showing love how much more do you fail also. Indeed you mock yourself at every word. I extend love where love is received i do not cast it before swine such as yourself, biblically speaking. The knowledge i have is not for you to grasp, no way are you capable of understanding anything except sharp reproof you even struggle with this. To engage in biblical chat with you is a complete waste of time because you sternly and willfully twist all points to make good persuasive criteria moot and so you should be treated with utter contempt but even at that i fail because i continue to, albeit harshly, offer you - from time to time; constructive criticism, i show you the errors of your thoughts and point out with data why you are wrong and in the light of your impenetrable wall i continue to dissect your myths, thoughts, actions, even show contextuality for your wrong doctrines and all else about you that is reprehensible but i continue in the face of such futility. If i did not even so much as care i would not even bother with you. Why hubpages mods let you remain is a mystery to me based on your performance here, it is obvious you only come to rob and steal and destroy.
Anyway i've said what i've said and that is more than enough. I am sure you will find a few lines of generality to blame me or something else but this is what you do.
i am done with you for a while, till the next stupid thing you say - oh gees that may not be a while now that i think of it.
have a nice day
I think what most anyone who reads through your exchange with ATM is wondering is; why you don't see the difference? He doesn't claim to be a Christian. You do.
What you are casting aren't pearls BO.
Sure, along with any other book of myths and superstitions. Of course, if we were to discuss it as some sort of reality, then it should be laughed and ridiculed because there's nothing intelligent about that.
LOL. The Bible is easily understood as myths and superstitions by those who actually think, as is much of your gibberish and petty insults here.
You do no such thing. You have no data. You have only myths and superstitions of which you embrace as reality.
You don't care, that was demonstrated with your post regarding Earnest.
LOL. And, how does one accomplish that on a public forum? So childish.
That, along with many other petty insults you utter can get you banned.
But, we all know that is how you behave as a loving Christian.
What is your problem sir. I clearly reference the fact "believers" don't have His laws in their hearts and mind. And you are proving my point.
All we need is a conscience. That's where the laws are. People know right and wrong intuitively and when they come to God the conscience is what God ushers his work through. Now before ya all go saying that this means nothing because bad people exist and the conscience is not a sure thing that sprouts successful christianity, let me just say, the conscience is a tool that God uses we as humans can override it but that was not my point. The point was the laws of God - not the sacrificial laws - but the laws of what is proper and right to do; good and bad if you will, are there and that answers your question.
BJ. I was replying to others about their reply's to what I had posted. You told me you were finished with the matter. I moved on. What question? We had been in discussion about new and old covenant. His laws govern whatever covenant, according to scripture, IMHO. You stated they were null and void, that we live under a new agreement, grace. Who has been "saved" by grace alone? There are many interpretations of what His grace is. What is yours? Mine? I see it as we exist because of His grace. I see it as His means of salvation for the sinner, Mashyach. Here to repair the breech we made in the covenant. Here to tell us of the coming of His kingdom. There are requirements. Certain conditions to His covenants. You do this and I'll do that. You do that and I'll do this. I'm simply stating, other than Yahusha being the High Priest, there is nothing changed. You as a believer are under law. Always have been, always will be. Hebrews make this very clear. The entire Book makes this very clear. Show me where He changed this. If you are not obedient to His laws, how are you fellowshipping with Him? How can they be written into our hearts and minds, with the world the way it is today? Is this what you think He had in mind? We have not reached that point yet. Again, IMHO, this will not happen until Yahusha returns. When we will be one nation, one pure language, all on the same page. For instance, in this thread, Sabbath requirements. The Sabbath law still stands. You say it doesn't. I have asked you to show scripture to support your position. You have come up with none. So I presume you are giving me your personal opinion, without back-up. I disagree with what you are saying. I'm going to give you my opinion (interpretation?), with the scripture needed, for you to use to make an informed assessment of what I'm saying. Whether you agree or not, really doesn't matter. Just giving another viewpoint. Something to mull over. We can always agree to disagree. Shalum
Wow this is brilliant and well said. I appreciate your views for it is truth, undiluted truth! God bless you my friend! Too many persons tailor the Bible to suit their lifestyle.
Yes i have heard of all that stuff before.. jot or iota.. speaking of the written language of the hebrews.. Jesus had complete faith in what the law said and the prophets etc, but he also said he came to fulfill and that has significance which seems to get passed by, and we, today, do to.. but we don't take it so literal. There is a new application now, the OT is our type and shadow and that includes the laws also. Saturday sabbath is everyday now there's the type for that. See how OT sabbath is in its shadow form back then..
I've said what i said, im done. Continue working on it if you must and have many great days.
You have been seriously mislead Brotherochanan. Please read that which you have replied to, the truth is there. It can sometimes be hard to change or see otherwise especially when you have been deeply indoctrinated with the wrong teachings.
Huh, it's true that Jews have to observe sabbaths, i.e. refrain from any labour activities each seventh day. It is directly prescribed to them under the law of Moses.
I believe the Sunday worship is legitimate as long as the majority of Christian believers approve of this. Jesus was ressurected on Monday. This can be considered either as the first day of the week or the 8th day, the day of sabbath, the eon of eternal life.
In Russia, Sunday is called as Ressurection after Jesus' raising from dead.
The problem is with the Christianity itself. It is all about who we should follow: Peter and the rest of apostles, or Paul, an apostle to pagans. Peter & Co. remained loyal to the law until his death. All Jewish Christians continued to follow the law and traditions. Unlike Paul. Paul made it clear the law has been cancelled and it is one's faith in Christ's redemptive role. Paul was abhored by other Jews for that. Even when he comes to Jerusalem, his 'fellow-Christians' get furious at him, saying there are thousands of Christians in Jerusalem and all of them are zealous of the law. I guess Paul could have been stoned by Christians, like Stephan had been by Jews.
Jesus himself clearly states that he came to the sheep of Israel, when he sends his apostles he requires that they do not go to Samaritans and other pagans, when he sends the holy spirit he instructs Peter & Co. to stay at Jerusalem, which most of them did. Peter is reluctant to accept the idea that holy spirit is also granted to non-Jew believers. Basically, the bible says the Jews will rule all the pagan nations and tribes eventually.
Paul's idea is that YHWH is a god of pagans just like he is to Jews. The truth is, when Constantine declared Christianity an official religion, less than 10% of the empire's overall populations were in the sect (numerous different sects actually).
You have made valid points my friend, you are well in tuned with history and the Bible. But note still you have been mislead.
"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to the Messiah." ( Col 2:14-16)
To understand the Word of God, you cannot take any one scripture out of context and build an entire doctrine from it when the bulk of the Word of God says the exact opposite.
The subject of Col 2:14-16 is NOT the Sabbath day, Feasts, and Commandments. The subject is the penalty of death or “certificate of debt” that was levied against mankind for our failure to keep them prior to the YHWH paying that debt for us with the blood of His first born son Yahshua. And the condemnation from the rest of the World as we keep YHWH´s Commandments, Feasts, and Sabbaths.
Again, the subject is the "certificate of debt" not YHWH´s Sabbaths, Feasts.
ONE: Paul is saying; Do not let anyone (Jews) condemn you (Gentiles) with the old “certificate of debt” or “penalties of the law” because the penalty has been nailed to the cross. We now have GRACE.
Let's make it clear. Pagans, gentiles, whatever, have never been under the law. The bible expressly states that the Jews are the only nation chosen by god YHWH and the only nation globally to which revealations and laws were given. Pagans are free of the certificate of bond because they never undertook the bond and were never obliged to do so.
However, both Jews and pagans, as also noted by Paul, are liable to death through their common ancestor Adam (and Noah). Jews are further liable to punishments imposed for their failure to comply with the laws. However, the bible expressly says that the guilt, the certificate of bond, is from time to time erased through punishments such as invasions of foreigners or exiles to foreign territories, outside of YHWH's jurisdiction. I guess, the destruction of the second temple was one of such bond restructurings.
Outside of YHWH's Jurisdiction? Wow...that's offensive no matter how you translate it. I wont even bother to comment on your logically flawed prose.
Truth to tell, the old testament shows that god's grace has been there at all times. God keeps saying that any good that god gives to the Jews is not because of their righteousness.
Of course the BULK of the bible is going to support Mosaic Law. Its been active 2,000+ yrs compared to the 71 days we have recorded about Jesus and the letters to churches from apostles. So bulk is not persuasive evidence that this law is still in effect. Its just a much thicker book.
As to col 2 verses.. the handwritten ordinances refer to the mosaic law and pauls point is that no jew can hold them to those laws of moses of which the feasts and sabbaths are part of, because they are gone away with, set aside and no longer keep Gods people in bondage.
How you got that the penalties were only nailed but the law is still in effect, well, you have replaced a solid fact with an abstract one. Moses wrote the law by hand which is solid and judges pronouncing penalties is abstract.
To summarise, Paul believes that Christ saved all the people as all the folks are descendants of Adam through who's sin death entered the world. Because pagans have never been subject to the law, they are outside of the scope of the law, and therefore are free to act on their own.
I would think you would first have to determine the ultimate purpose of the law. Was a day of rest a gift, or an obligation. It is my understanding that a day of rest was a novel idea at the time. So, was it meant to serve God, or to serve both God and Man? If both, then its transformation into not only a day of worship, but a day of ritualistic behavior which was constantly monitored and judged would have been a gross perversion of the original intent.
So, Sunday or Saturday, when used as a day to use as a display of piety is an extension of the original perversion. Worship if you feel compelled, but I think the text is clear on what the ultimate purpose is of outward displays of ritualistic behavior.
We could assume it was intended to serve both god and men, but... if you read what the bible says you will see that men are prohibited from any sort of activities, even cooking, carrying any cargoes from one place to another or setting fire. Complete idleness is no good to humans. Jesus actually was the first to question the intention of the sabbath. It is really difficult to understand Jesus from a Jew's point of view - thousands of Jews got killed by enemies during wars as they did not dare to break the sabbath - Jesus was reasonably advised to heal people on any other days.
One should also remember that god once punished Jews by sending them into an exile for their having failed to observe sabbaths. The length of their stay was calculated directly from the number of their breaches of the sabbath. Each neglected sabbath needed a full year of sabbath to be set off.
Interestingly, the ten commandments were believed to be written by the finger of God, himself. The rest were called the Laws of Moses. So, if you believe in any of it, you can assume that Moses interjected his own interpretation onto the law of God, fine tuning it (in his estimation) to better serve that particular group of people during that moment in history.
Not that it matters to me, but I do think the teachings of Jesus were meant to help people understand the intent of the laws. All laws were given to serve Man. So, any law used to the detriment of one man against another, would ulitmately prove to be a misinterpretation.
Guys, we can discuss this endlessly. Read the bible. The text matters and counts, not what some Christians believe it is intended to mean. Construction of texts is good where the text is difficult to understand. No interpretation is needed to understand a plain text. It should taken straight-forwardly.
We cant really assume that moses wrote what he thought best. As one becomes familiar with this topic through reading the scriptures, of course, it becomes apparent that no one wrote what they thought best. None of the prophets of old, not joshua, and certainly not moses. Noahs description of the boat was not his own idea either. The chapters and paragraphs that specifically state Gods involvement in the laws, the judgments and precepts of the torah are too numerous to count.
Now take into consideration that people who are involved in whatever subject when writing about it unless they want to lie of course, write what is true and much more so when holy scripture is involved.
I don't know BO. Look at the relationship Moses was said to have with God. Look at the reverence afforded Moses. Think about your words, against their words. They called it the law of Moses. You said they had to speak the truth. Sounds as if we might be in agreement on this one.
Never assume with God's words, never. It either is or isn't.
Therein lies a lot of confusion. The gospels take a sharp turn away from the vengeful God of the old testament. Jesus, himself, boiled the laws down to two; attempting to assist the believer in understanding the reason for the law. So you wouldn't be mired in it, but could reason out your actions. So, if you must follow outdated mandates what was the significance of the appearance of Jesus?
Bottom line, you do have to think about the progression of information. You do have to think how and why you do the things you do to display your faith. You do have to think 'What would Jesus do'. And you do have to think about why he would do it. If you don't take the time to think, if it is easier to find a passage and point to that as the only reason you do what you do; I think confusion is bound to ensue.
Emile, the problem is nobody knows what Jesus did and why he did so. Even his own disciples. Before his death, Jesus said to the that they knew the path. Yet the disciples debunked the myth outright saying no, teacher, we do not. What the hell the path is? You have been preaching for 1 year, and we did not get anything from your words...
I understand the 4th commandment saying simply to keep the Sabath wholy as a day of rest, and be thankful unto the lord.
Going to church on the Sabath is not a requirement under the 4th commandment, though the church would want us to think so.
We can worship the Lord any and every day of the week.
I'm reminded of the story where Jesus was critizing a Pharisee for making sure that he was out on the street corner when the hour of prayer came, so that everyone can see him being rightious. ?? Jesus said that it is better to pray in the secret rather than as a public display. ... So, ... What did we do? We put a special building on the corner for that purpose.
In the first century, the "Church" was in the individuals homes. The members of the family was the congrigation, and extended family and friends were also invited to join and share.
Going to church on the Sabath is not a substitute.
I'm not saying that going to church is a bad thing! I'm just saying "Church" begins at home.
One need to understand that first Jewish Christians were forced to gather at homes due to pressures from Jews. Till then, they preached at the temple and in synagogues. As to pagan Christians, noone would admit them to synagogues, less to the temple, unless they were those described as fearing the god, circumcised pagans.
Basically, first Christians lived in communities. Members sold their property and contributed the revenues to the community's fund. The pool of contributions were shared equally by all members, even apostles did not carry any cash with them.
As to churches as buildings of worship, Jews had to attend their synagogues to listen to the law. It was a place to get educated in law and to discuss details. So modern-day Christians are encouraged to visit churches to listen to the god's scriptures being read to them aloud. Today's churches are no longer in the form of communities. They resemble synagogues more than Christian communities, except for images.
Pagan Christians have never been subject to the law. They are free, not burdened by any provisions or their interpretations. The only thing they are supposed to do is to worship YHWH while giving up their old deities and conduct themselves as good Christians, just like instructed by Jesus or Paul.
1. Jesus said he came to preserve and fulfill the law, not change or invalidate it, so the sabbath is still a thing, whether you're a Christian or a Jew.
2. We treat Sunday as the seventh day anyway (it's the last day of the week-end- after all), so it probably counts.
Wise words! Except Sunday isn't the true Sabbath. Do some history work.
I don't think he was implying that Sunday was the original Sabbath. What he appears to be saying is that Sunday has become our seventh day, in practice. Any glance at a calendar shows it hasn't been forgotten that it was originally calculated as the first day. And, in practice because of Christian philosophy.
Either way, your thread has shown the downfalls of believing one knows the intent of the Bible more than another person. You three have lost more than you could ever imagine. I'd explain, but since you want to channel the hatred and vengeance you've read, you want to play God, it would be a waste of time and energy.
Emile, before you accuse us of hatred and describe god as white and puffy, read the bible. It clearly states that sabbaths should be celebrated and anyone who rejects them should be stoned to death. This is what god said. Perhaps, it was out of love.
again, gentiles are not subject to laws because they never have been. So, why worrying. Leave this to the Jews. Because they do not worry anyway and do not care about pagan ideas as to when Jesus, the fucking Jew rightfully crucified by Pilate, should be worshipped.
I'm simply reading your posts. That is where the hatred is obvious. And, I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say white and puffy. Are you saying your God is anglo and haughty?
Why should we care and engage ourselves in historic work? If god would care he would have thrown a lightning in someone's arse to make him understand what the matter actually is.
Sunday Worship-is it Sanctified by God or in accordance with His laws?
Every day is sanctified by God for worship. And everyone should have a day off or a day of rest every seven days (mininum) I don't think it really matters which day we consider that seventh day to be. Now If everyone wants to coordinate their day of rest; then it does matter that they all agree as to what day they do this.
But this is just MY opinion.
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