Why Didn't God Prevent Rick Warren's Son's Death?
As a person raised to believe in the message that has been preached for years about God and Jesus, and what they can do, and how merciful they are, I have never been able to understand why people continue to pray to God, when He doesn't prevent something He could have, clearly, prevented, especially since Rick's son was a good Christian, Rick himself is a MAN OF GOD, and the congregation was earnestly praying for his son's recovery.
http://news.yahoo.com/church-pastor-ric … 06608.htmlI think millions of Christians will struggle with this one. "Why did God provide me with a parking space after I prayed when I went shopping, but didn't intervene to save Rick's son despite all those thousands of prayers?" Kind of puts the pop culture Christianity into perspective.
The article said that over the years his son had been treated by America's best doctors. Sounds to me like the medical profession fell down on this one.
But if the medical professionals had fixed him, all the praise would have gone to God. So how do you explain that?
Who says the praise would have gone to God? You? I guess it's up to you to explain then. You're the one blaming God for his death.
I'll have to answer that when I get back. I'm going to church for awhile.
. No, but seriously, I'll answer you when I come back.If I may take a guess.. From what I've noticed in my life, When someone gets healed from an injury or an illness that could be life threatening, Most believers immediately give the glory to God for saving the person healed rather than showing acknowledgment to the efforts of the medical profession as well as our own body's regenerative ability. For some, God is the ultimate answer to all things and nothing else matters. There are few reports of someone dealing with an illness or injury that stayed home and prayed then got healed. There more often than not would be some medical records that would have some treatment history for the issue.
That may, or may not be. Either way, generalizations get tedious after a while. I don't know any believers who ignore the benefits of medical science, or stay away from the doctor because they assume a miracle is going to cure them.
But, let's be realistic. Medicine isn't a 100% cure for all that ails us. I should know. Three people close to me have died from different diseases when the medical profession didn't have the breakthroughs needed before they passed away.
Let's take cancer as an example. Some live, some die. Some approach death's door, all hope is lost and the doctors suggest it is time to get your affairs in order. Inexplicably, it goes into remission. The doctor admits she is stumped, but happy. Do you think she is offended that someone thanks God? Unless her name is getitrite, I doubt it.
Why do we spend more time insisting we are smarter than others than we spend getting to know and understand them? I've always believed every human being has cause for their beliefs. Reasons to come to their unique cosmic conclusion. And whether we understand or not is determined by our desire to understand and their desire to be understood. But, when we approach a scenario with a biased opinion, as if their conclusions are inherently wrong, they naturally assume the same of ours. The dialogue is killed before it started. Which is a shame. Those who thank God display a beautiful humility that is consistently lacking in those who assume that simply because they thank God they aren't taking all factors into account when they do so.Great points. Of course I wouldn't think a doctor would get personally offended if someone thanks God instead of them, especially if the doctor is a believer as well. I looked back at my response and I can see where my posting could seem very much as if I'm saying all most believers do is immediately go to God without considering any other factors. I think (I apologize in advance Getit for assuming) that I was trying to hazard a guess as to why Getit made his specific response.
No way a Christian would ever praise God for healing their loved ones....after the doctors did all the work. That never ever happens.
I must certainly be just making up stuff.
Yep. I made up the whole thing. Get real.
Now you're just making up stuff. I asked a question as to why this God, that these people are praying to, just didn't answer their prayer and as a result this ultimate tragedy occurred. Why pray to a God if He doesn't respond to your request,especially in your darkest hour?You are judging harshly. The question is why? I can only assume you were once a Christian who believed in miracles and didn't get one. You can't take personal experience and extrapolate universal conclusions. The Christians I knew who prayed for help also stoicly accepted outcomes that didn't meet their highest hopes. They didn't blame God for not fulfilling their prayer.
Maybe that is the difference? These Christians aren't actively seeking a scape goat for unmet desires? Maybe they don't think the universe revolves around then?So I guess god, for no apparent reason, thinks I should suffer, while granting other people, for no apparent reason, their request.
That's called being brain washed, or indoctrinated. Why should someone waste their life praying, and never get any results, except, occasionally, claiming things that would meet the same standard for CHANCE? That's madness.
That's just blatantly untrue. In your zeal to discredit me, I guess you forgot all about Satan, whom Christians have continually used as a scape goat.
No, they just think that they are in a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. That's all.Look, if you expect God to wipe your nose you will definitely be disappointed. If you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, you will usually get by.
I'm not suggesting that there aren't some people in the world similar to the ones you are railing against. But, since the lion's share of the Christian community isn't...what's the point?You speak of God as if He actually exist or something. Just in case you've forgotten, God is imaginary, so your claims are absurd. Logically, I should expect nothing from a being that doesn't exist. That would be delusional.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with a worthless, all powerful, incompetent God.
Another blatantly false statement.My last statement wasn't false. Not looking at the statistics.
Seriously though. I'm an agnostic who would love proof. There was a time when I believed in the eye in the sky God. I've prayed. Does the fact that prayers aren't answered mean there is no God? I don't think it proves non existence as much as it proves that I thought too highly of myself when I expected my whims to be taken care of magically. I go by the old saying now that things will work out in the end. If they haven't worked out, it isn't the end yet. I don't stress over spilled milk and things I have no control over. If there is any semblance of a God in the universe, I'm sure others need more than I do. Heck, people are starving. What are our problems compared to that?This is an interesting statement in itself. I think this is where some believers (myself included once upon a time) are coming up short.. The ego born out of the indoctrination of what could have been incorrect biblical teaching growing up
Maybe. But, I'm not sure I would label it indoctrination. I see it as immaturity. Faith is first perceived in the same manner as Santa Claus. I want. I ask. I get. And, this is normal for children. The world revolves around them, in their minds.
As we grow, so should our perspective. If it doesn't, then how do we function? Where faith in prayer is concerned, we either suffer a disconnect between reality and faith or we lose faith. But, both are signs of immaturity, imo. Because there are an infinite number of things to ponder from the knowledge that prayer does not create miracles. Limiting the options to lying to yourself or saying there is no God seems as if one who would rather flip a coin than think. It's impatient.
It is the immature mind of a child that is the breeding ground for indoctrination. It is in this immaturity that like you said (I want. I ask. I get) which is what leads people to develop a total and unhealthy (in some cases) dependence on God. This mentality has been continually been recycled in most churches around the world, which is where the whole idea comes in for organized religion (IMO). People are indoctrinated and programmed from a young age to adulthood to do things from a reward/punishment perspective rather than a perspective of moral or ethical behavior. I've seen other posts here where the only reason a believer gives for a certain point of view is "The Bible or God says so". In my opinion, (because I have no proof of otherwise other than what a few friends have told me) this is why some have become atheist. They are only taught I want, I ask, I get without being taught that Faith without works is dead. As a result, they want, they ask, but they DON'T get then conclude that there is no God and it all was a lie to keep them in line with a false hope.
This is why I state indoctrination versus immaturity.. because Most churches are teaching the Bible in a manner keeping people from thinking for themselves or to force people that are starting to think for themselves back under control. Now, If more people were to critically examine the Bible for themselves, I think that for some it will lead them to become atheists, but for others, it will lead to a new understanding that will actually give them a better reason for believing other than reward/punishment and actually improve their quality of life to where they aren't acting out of irrational fear or overruling ego.
To inject a bit of humor, I hope it doesn't happen for a long time because then HP will become boring without egos...LOLI'll have to continue to disagree. Very few churches are teaching anything to our children anymore. Church attendance is down and I would bet Sunday school attendance is half that. Very few children are fanatical Christians. That behavior is normally indicative of an adult conversion. The adults I've encountered who fall into the category of delusional Christian appear to have had a traumatic reason for accepting Christ and then fall headlong into evangelizing.
You could pass a law that kids can't go to church and it would barely put a dent into the category of crazy Christians. The problems within Christianity are the problems of immature adults seeking an easy fix to complex problems.You don't necessarily totally disagree. Church attendance is down overall, but the teaching that is going on within those sunday schools is still mostly (from my observations of a lot of the churches I've attended) the same as it was when I was a child. You are correct, very few children are fanatical Christians, but this is not unique to Christianity. Fanaticism is not inherent in children in general. It is with the continued indoctrination and programming these beliefs into young, sponge- like minds that brings a lot of them into becoming fanatics as adults. The mind learns the most during the adolescent years. There is evidence that supports this observation all over HP (though this doesn't necessarily make it true, just reinforces an opinion).
The truth of this is because The adults that are in control now were the ones mostly affected by indoctrination on a bigger scale than the children today. Besides, even if the laws are passed barring kids from church the parents are still passing their indoctrinated ideals to their children, which is basically an attempt to raise the next generation to continue the same fights as the parents. Is it as prevalent, not really, but it is still out thereYou must be joking. Fanaticism is not a result of religious education. Have you noticed the fanatical atheists on this site? You interact with at last one daily. Fanatical Christian turned fanatical atheist. Personality types. The lion's share of Christians are not fanatical anymore than the lion's share of Muslims are suicide bombers or the lion's share of atheists would die for the opportunity to terrorize a nation.
You must be able to see that generalizing in order to lay blame for isolated behavior patterns on an entire group goes all ways. The Unibomber was atheist. Must we rest his actions and thoughts at the feet of others? Bin Ladin was Muslim. Are they all plotting against us?
Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water because you are attempting to dunk 3 million people into a kiddie pool meant to hold approximately 2% of that number.No, by no means was I blaming the whole thing on religion or religious education. I must have missed a couple of areas where I should have added the words "a lot" or "most". Religion is nowhere the only factor in fanaticism. I mentioned that indoctrination and fanaticism is not unique to religion. But I also did not specifically that Religious teaching was the sole culprit. I stated indoctrination. Indoctrination, although most widely used to describe roles in religion, is not purely a religious term.
I do see it, that's why I try to use the terms "a lot", "some", or even "that I've dealt with". I try to be as careful as possible about not having too many sweeping generalizations
Sorry, I was not trying to dunk a whole populace into a certain situation. or rather it was not my intention to. It is a small amount, but that small amount unfortunately speak loud enough (at times) to where others actually look at it as a majorityOthers need to think. If they think the rabble is the majority they aren't doing that. The smaller the audience, the louder one speaks; hoping to increase the audience.
Agreed 100%. And the sad reality is that not a lot of people look at things this way
I too fail to understand why so many good people have to suffer in the world. I have difficulties understanding why - anyone - has to suffer in the world. If I or you had the ability to end pain and suffering, wouldn't we? So I cannot help asking, "if god exists, why won't god stop pain and suffering?" It's painful to know that I can do very little to help anyone. It must be perplexing to any god fearing man or woman as to why god does does nothing to help anyone. Although, some will say god does help, now and then; although they say so with no visible, tangible god as proof.
Many religious people espouse the belief that god has "a plan. Do not question god's plan." But what plan involves good people suffering in pain and bad people living in splendor and luxury?
Has anyone asked themselves the following? If god exists and god is all powerful. If god exists and god can create, destroy, fix and do anything. How can god understand creatures such as man that cannot do all god can do? How can god expect creatures such as man to rise to the stature of god? Is not man imperfect by nature? And, whose fault is it if we cannot rise to godly stature? Man did not create man. God created man, right? So if god created man, is not god responsible for man's many faults? And if god is responsible, why does man need to prove himself through pain and suffering?Is it possible that the answer can be found in your statement "It must be perplexing to any god fearing man or woman as to why god does does nothing to help anyone"?
If people don't fear Him and what he does, they won't follow Him (in the guise of organized churches) and fill their collection plates? If people understood what He wants of us and no longer need a priest to tell us will we still pay the priest?Can't honestly argue with that, especially the "in the guise of organized churches" part.
Remembering how many different organized religions there are!
Just suppose that we had our consciousness before this physical life, and after this life is over, that which we do to ourselves and each other has little significance in the overall picture
It apparently means, perpetually, defining and redefining God, until you, inevitably, run into a myriad of contradictions.
The question of "if God is good, why is there evil?" is one of those eternal questions that all religions struggle to answer. In fact, there's a name for this question: theodicy.
The theodicy issue is a major reason why most people embrace one religion or another, since most religions provide at least some response to the question of "why bad things happen to good people." (See: Book of Job for a halting attempt at explanation.)
And yet when things like this happen, people find that religion doesn't have all the answers, unless you're a polytheist or believe in something like Zoroastrianism that accounts for the presence of evil in the world.
There's no answer. It's one of the biggest mysteries of life. Either you become agnostic, or atheist, or assume that there is some higher purpose to suffering (God has to permit free will, which means permitting us to fall down and break our legs; God set up the initial parameters of creation but can't interfere with the day-to-day workings; we're atoning for original sin / sins of our ancestors; we're sinful and deserve punishment; God works in mysterious ways and maybe there's some greater good we don't know about; suffering makes us humble; God is testing our faith; etc, etc, etc).Before you question about religion and God, I think it would be better to know first the whole thing about these. We should not base our principle on our own limited mentality and understanding. It might confuse us. Learn.
Ask and God will answer you in a way you cannot understand.First of all, you contradict yourself when you say we should not base principle on 'limited mentality and understanding' claiming it "might confuse us" and then end it off with, "Learn".
What is confusing is when explanations cannot be understood when they contradict themselves.
Then, God is completely and utterly a waste of time for answering questions.
However, it you ever get a chance to talk with God, let him know we puny humans ask questions in order to understand so as not to remain ignorant and confused.
Why should God HAVE TO HAD prevented Rick Warren's son's death? Why SHOULD He? God gave us a free will. Warren's son chose to take his own life. Also, Rick Warren's doctrine is false and he is apostate. He is not a true Christian. You can't fool God. I would imagine his son subscribed to those same false doctrines. God is not obligated to be at the beckon and call of apostates. God is not a big genie in the sky to perform wishes for anyone. He is the creator of all things. Even those who belong to him should ask for their prayers to be answered according to his [God's] will.
You need to read the Bible and learn the nature and character of God. There is not enough time and space on this forum to answers such deep things of God. But briefly, God created man without sin. Man sinned and so we have to deal with the results of sin [pain, sickness, difficulty, evil, wickedness, despair, death....]. God sent his only begotten Son Jesus to repair the relationship between God the Father and mankind. He did succeed, but he has not yet chosen to put an end to all of the wickedness in the world yet. In this period of time, God is giving all of us the opportunity to choose which side we want to be on. Do you want to accept Jesus Christ as Saviour & Lord OR do you want to go your own way, which leads to eternal death? One day Jesus Christ WILL step in and put an end to the this world system with it's pain, corruption, death, etc. That time is coming sooner than we think.
The bottom line is that this present life is not the "be all to end all". Those who die in Christ will live again to rule and reign with Jesus and God. It does not matter what ANYONE says. God is God and we are not.Rick Warren pretty much believes the same thing you do.
How do YOU know what I believe? I suggest you find out what the Bible says and then read up on Warren's false doctrines then perhaps you'll be able to figure it out, but I doubt it.
FYI: A head knowledge of the gospel does not equal the heart knowledge of it. You see, demons and devils know and believe the truth of the gospel, but they're going to hell.Uh... I quoted you... they were your words. See above, your post.
Perhaps, Warren is then free to add to the already growing list of 43,000 denominations of Christianity, each with their own set of false doctrines opposing the Bible and setting alight the ire and disdain of the others superior righteousness.
I'm all a flutter to hear who has appointed themselves the ultimate arbiter of that distinction?
Would you happen to know?
Just like the compassionate non-believer who rejects gospels, but takes the time to help others in need, does not go to hell.Woah there chummy. You say Rick Warren was an apostate, a man of false doctrines, but then go on to talk about demons and devils? Hello Pot, I'm Kettle, your'e black. If you'd ever read the Old Testament you would see that devils and demons do not exist, and the only reason that the early Church believed and wrote about them was because they held the same superstitious beliefs as the Jews of Jesus' time.
I agree ....
however what comes to mind while reading your post is that Rev. 13 explains that power is given to the beast for 42 months to blaspheme. This 42 months in prophesy IS not 42 months as we see them in this physical world. 42 months is equal to approx 1645 of our years. The same way that 62 weeks as described in Daniel 9 lasted 568 of our years.
The Lord has blinded our eyes on this matter the same way that he blinded the eyes of those Hebrews concerning the arrival of the messiah in the first century.
SOooo I don't think that he will be sending anyone to hell for not seeing that which God blinded them to.
That being said ... We need to rethink the story that organized religion has been teaching. Cause the blind should not attempt to lead the blind. On the other hand ... those who recieve wisdom, ... much more is expected from them. If you know something to be wrong and we do it any way, we will be held accountable much more than those that didn't know.
I have faith in my God that if he causes me to be blind, I will not be punished for my blindness.
You do realize the bible is a book of fables ... don't you? I am reading all these posts quoting the bible about the beast and so on and so on and I am scared that so many believe these fairy tales.
Just as a note of interest regarding "the beast." The culture at the time of that particular fable followed numerology. The number of the beast was that of a Roman ruler; possibly Cesar. As think authors of today, the end of the world was looked upon as happening in the lifetime of those fable writing authors. Everyone wants to believe they are at the center of the great happenings in the Universe; whether its the Universe's beginning or its destruction. It makes people feel important.
Regarding good things that happen on this Earth. Doctors heal people, not god. Football teams win football games, not god. Rich people build their fortunes, not god. Mothers feed their babies, not god. Farmers grow crops, not god. Man invented heated homes to survive year round in cold climates, not god. To believe otherwise is to believe there exist a god that chooses to help some people and chooses not to help others.
Do you really believe god chooses some people to suffer and not be healed? That one football team should lose to another? That some people should never have wealth? That some babies should starve to death? That some people should not be successful at growing crops and feeding their families? That some people should freeze to death? To believe this is no more than fitting an imaginary god to the reality of the world.
As regards "free choice." I believe in free choice as much as the next man. But choice is something all living creatures have. Choice is ours as much as what we have to work with; i.e. what life and our parents genetics gave us at birth. It is not god given; it is man's nature. It is also another convenient answer fitting an imaginary god to the reality of the world.
Please think. Don't give something that does not exist credit for the good in the world; credit that is due your parents, your spouse, your children, your family, your friends, your neighbors, your fellow man.- Beth37posted 11 years ago
0You're right. The children of ppl who preach the bible should be exempt from natural laws. Like the children of world ambassadors, free from all consequence. With those guidelines established, we could have them rob from the very rich and give to the very poor! That way, with their super power like status, they could help make the world a better place. Or... we are all under the same natural laws, to live and die and accept the good and bad life brings us.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
What seems the most offensive is the fact that some mans child has died and instead of being empathetic, you are using the tragedy as a way to lash out at him personally in public no less. What was his crime again? Oh yeah... he has faith in God.
At the risk of becoming inundated in attacks, I'm going to make an observation.
Reading through the forums over the years, the most vehement atheist posts appear to come from individuals who are ex Christians. They didn't get something they desperately prayed for. I guess we all have moments of weakness and emotional turmoil when it would have been wonderful if providence could have changed things; but how we go on with our lives is more important than anything else.
Unresolved issues are always troubling.You're absolutely right. I am usually quite compassionate about things like that, but when I see great injustices, something in me rises up. It just seems so cruel to criticize a good man who will never see his son again this side of Heaven again. I should learn to exhale more.
Yes, I can't imagine the pain it could cause for the parents to have to read through this thread. The loss of a loved one shouldn't be used in this manner.
We just recently had a suicide in our community. I used to be friends with the guy. I hadn't seen him in years, but I still felt bad. Wondering if there was anything I could have done. Suicide is so tragic. When it happens I feel we have somehow failed another human being in their time of need.It's so human... the first thought being 'I wonder if there's anything I could have done.'
Im sorry for your loss.
I can agree with some of this statement. I can't help but to wonder what else could have caused someone to become atheist. There has to be more to it than a simple lack of evidence, right?
How presumptuous of you. I guess the fact that there is no evidence to support the claims of these beliefs is just no reason, in itself, for ex-Christian to denounce these beliefs. I guess you have to connect an emotional component. I wonder why?
Maybe your observation has some merit, but your conclusion is pure conjecture.I appreciate you not offering an emotional response. I agree, it is conjecture; but I find it telling that those from strong ex Christian backgrounds are exceedingly similar. And, I did have one of those tell me, point blank, she was miffed when she realized she couldn't have what she prayed for. It was the turning point in her faith.
Yes, and that equates to being mad at God. But I would think that the majority of atheist are indignant at the fact that others are continually trying to brain wash us into accepting something that we have already concluded, through reason, is nothing but a fraud. I'm not proposing that atheist are absolutely sure of whether or not there is a God, but it is an insult to the intellect to just make up stuff, then feed it to us as children, knowing that it has no basis in fact.
Yes, I'm from a religious family. My father, like Warren, was a minister. At some point in my youth, I began to see the glaring contradictions in these beliefs. It wasn't out of anger because my selfish prayers weren't answered, it was because I could not ignore the disparities. It wasn't until later that I realized that not one of my prayers had ever been answered.
Although I sometimes state that there is no god, I do understand that absolute statements like that can be logically challenged, therefore, I guess my position is more towards atheist/agnostic. But let's be serious, can we even put the Abrahamic Gods in the running when assessing whether or not there is a god, as these are simply taken from ancient text of dubious authorship, and are properly described as ridiculous..Thank you for sharing this. I'm learning more and more about each of you. Not all of you are outright total atheists. some of you lean more toward the atheist side of agnosticism because you would rather not blindly something that there is no proof of.. Is that about right?
That's about right. If there is a God out there that makes direct contact, and tells me that he is God, then proves it, that would be a game changer. If a UFO landed right in front of me, while wide awake, in the middle of the day, and the aliens took everyone in town to another galaxy, that would change my perceptions too..
Let me ask you this then since we are on subject. If God did speak to you and proved himself to you, would you take the time to ask him anything at all or would you simply hold that he is how he is depicted in the bible and walk away from him?
Please understand that I am not referring to the God of the bible when I speak of "a God"
If the God of the bible, actually proved to be real, I would go completely mad.I understand. What I was asking was would you ask questions to see if the God revealed to you was the God of the Bible or would you simply assume that it is and act accordingly?
You would have to understand that the God of the bible is a contradiction, therefore if it existed there would be an almost endless list of questions. And His answers would have to be understood by my finite knowledge. So the answer is yes, of course, I would certainly question this God. But most of all, I would want it not to be true, as the god of the bible is a monstrosity. Again, I would go mad.
I appreciate where you are coming from; to an extent. But no one is attempting to brain wash anyone. People have beliefs. They share their beliefs. You appear to believe that act is a demand for consensus. I'm not certain why. If I thought others were attempting to brain wash me every time they shared a thought I'd be inclined to seek professional help.
No. I do empathize with this tragedy, but, then, I can't help but point out that this man of God's son could not be saved through all these prayers, yet people insist that we keep on praying all the time. I'm not lashing out at him. I'm just trying to get people to see the irony.
But no where in the Bible did God promise us a perfect life. He only promises that in Heaven. The Bible actually tells us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust... meaning that bad things will happen to good ppl and bad ppl. God does not cause it, it is just a natural consequence of living in an imperfect world. What He does promise is that He wont leave our side during our trials. I can tell you I just survived a trial that began in 2007, that I wished, at the time, I could have just died. It would have been preferable to me. However, I knew even thru the worst of it, God was with me. I felt His love stronger when I was living in sin then even when I was being a "good girl." I am stronger than I was then and though I wouldn't wish that time on anyone, I have learned a great deal from it.
And a side note... thank you for sharing something personal instead of just attacking. It makes it so much easier to communicate honestly with each other.If that's the case, then why should we pray?
I would prefer that a friend helped me, if he could. Sometimes just being by my side doesn't help. That's like if my electric power was disconnected, and my friend stays by my side, in my dark freezing house, while having $50,0000 dollars in his pocket. What good is just having him there, with money, if he refuses to help me? He could say how much he cares about me all he wants, but his actions is what signifies love and care.
I never understood how someone could actually feel love coming from a character that they read about in a book, or that someone told them was real..
No problem.Thats like saying to a kid, "Sometimes when you ask your parents for things, they say no, so why should you talk to them?" We pray so as to have a relationship with Christ. He does answer our prayers, He says yes, no and wait. Just like any good parent, cause He knows whats best for us. Maybe we need a new car, but maybe He knows what we need most is humility. So we bum rides until we learn. Or maybe the mechanic is our future spouse, or maybe He wants us to learn to trust Him and when we give up fighting to get our way, we turn around and we find we have a new car. Things like this happen to me ALL the time, for years and years. God does care about our needs, but He knows which needs are most important and He meets those first. We have to stop fighting Him and give Him control, learn to trust Him.
I don't know how to explain that I felt His love. I should have felt shame. I should have wanted to run away, but I felt Him watching over me. I felt His patience. I felt that forgiveness was waiting for me and that He was on my side. I wish I could impart these feelings to you, cause believe me... I wasn't anything like a Christian during this time, and I felt Him more than ever. Maybe some day you will come to that place. I pray you do.Why do you keep comparing mortal humans to an all powerful creator? Sorry but if the same rules apply to God that apply to parents, then we should pray to our parents as well. In fact our parents have actually done stuff for us that can be attributed directly to them, God hasn't.
Maybe He knows that He needs to allow us to get AIDS. Maybe He knows that He needs for some of us to be gunned down in public places when a deranged gunman goes on a mass murder attack. Maybe He Knows that some of us need to get ripped to pieces by tornadoes. Am I following you correctly on this?
Sorry, I know you really want to believe you felt the presence of a fictional character from a book of Bronze Age myths, but this sounds more like an overactive imagination.
Maybe God wanted His son to come back home? Why is it always the athiest who ask these "why" questions?
Typically (from what i've noticed) atheists ask these questions because a lot of believers won't. A majority of believers will simply chalk it up to events being in "God's will". The flaw in this specific thinking is that if everything that is done is ultimately in God's will, then what role does free will come into play? And if in this free will someone decides there is no more hope (not even in God) and commits suicide and it is in God's will, then this would contradict the idea of a loving God in a sense because Rather than calling his son home to spare him any more anguish, God could simply touch his spirit and heal his mind.
Again, this is simply an observationYou already know Deepes that I dont believe in a free will, There for, God gives life and He takes it according to His overall plan.
So if that was God's will, what good would all this incessant prayer do? To continue to believe in something, after you have witnessed the abject failure of it on so many occasions, is absurd.
Because blind followers are too afraid of authority. That's how those priest were able to get away with their horrible crimes for years. No one ever questioned anything, as long as it came from what they perceived as God. That era is over.As it is said to live and let live, why dont you allow people to believe and let believe.
You can believe whatever nonsense you want, but I'm still gonna point out how insane these beliefs are, and that they are tailored for people who are too afraid to think for themselves.
I have a simple solution to that problem. I will just ignor anything else you have to say getitrte. Because you are not here to help, you are here to harm. And btw, there is nothing about an athiest that I am afraid of.
i encourage all believers to just ignor the athiests rantings and get on with life. Debating with an athiest is a total waste of time.OK. Bye. We'll be praying for you, but don't expect any kind of results, because prayer only works when it's God's will.....and 99.9% of the time it's not His will.
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99.9% of the time it isn't his will. Really? How do you come to that conclusion? I thought you didn't believe in God. Maybe it is His will, but people have misinterpreted the application of said will.
Then it appears that "chance" is indistinguishable from "God's will"
Exactly, in a lot of cases. In others, abject and total dependence on God is also against God's will (OMG, did a believer just say that??)
We just don't know for sure and the Bible (as written) certainly doesn't provide as clear answers as it could (OMG, I did it again!!!)The bible does not provide clear answers, because the bible is a book of fables. You do realize that? The bible is a book of fables written by men, not the hand of god, not dictated by god, not anything by god. You cannot find any word from god by reading the bible, because god had nothing to do with writing or publishing the book.
And you do not know for sure any of the answers you seek, because you are unable to - guess the correct answer. I do not mean to sound condescending, and despite my awareness that you will respond to my post with the typical religious zealot, irrational anger and personal attack, I have to make you aware that you have never met god. You have never spoken with god. You have never heard or seen god. No one you know has ever encountered god. The Judea-Christian god you choose to quote is one god of thousands of gods created by men throughout history. A god created to answer questions that some men are too lazy to look for the answers. You have no proof that this god is anymore real than any of the other gods, so you have no foundation for any of your arguments.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people actually believe they are intelligently discussing the whys, the hows and the wheres, when in truth they are basing their arguments on fables and myths and untruths told to them through stories passed down through the generations. Think. Don't just believe whatever is told you. It is so frustrating to know so many people so much more educated today than years past still choose to believe in fact-less fables and the supernatural.
Let me ask you a couple of - logical questions. Please try to answer them with logic, not magic.
1. If god could physically make his presence known throughout history as told by stories in the bible, then why did god stop making his presence physically seen when the bible was completed?
2. If man was made in god's image, then god has a stomach, a heart, a rectum. Does god need to eat and poop? Doesn't logic dictate god was made in man's image? Most likely because of man's ego.
3. If god created man and man sins, isn't sin a defect created by god? If Toyota makes a car with a defect, isn't it Toyota's fault? I wouldn't blame you if the Toyota you purchased was faulty? Doesn't it follow that if god created man, it's god's fault for all the wrong we do? Isn't the religious claim that god created man to be able to choose between good and evil just an excuse for god's creating a faulty product?
You do realize that as you contemplate how to angrily and insultingly respond to this post (rather than follow the tenants of your faith and "turn the other cheek" and respond kindly), that I am just as insulted by supernatural believers telling me I am going to hell (eternal punishment by a loving god) if I don't believe what they demand, or I am ignorant because I follow logic and do not believe in the supernatural, or that I just have nothing to add to a discussion centered on religion because I believe the opposite of what they believe; I believe in reality.
I cannot change your faulty thinking, but let me leave you with this thought. You can be a good person and lead a good life without believing in silly nonsense.Kah-ching.
Now, why have I never thought of that?
You have, But this particular post was not meant for me since this isn't based on any specific comment that I have actually spoken.
But I don't feel attacked...LOLHmmm... seems to be more agreement about reality amongst non-believers than the supernatural amongst believers.
I will answer that: The FEAR of (God)authority makes believers accept any and everything that God does as perfect, and just, and loving. God being what ever God is indoctrinated into the individual, depending upon his geographical location at birth or pre-formative years.
But I know that Deepes will not agree with me on this.Wow, Getit.. After all the discussions that we have, do you still think so little of me?? I actually agree 100% with you. Most believers are ruled by abject fear as well as total dependence on God as according to how, when, and where they were indoctrinated. And as such, most believers are unwilling, unable, and uncaring enough to question what specifically they were told or to reexamine the information that is presented to them
Sorry. When I used the term "fear" I thought you would disagree on a personal level, but just about the term "fear" and not as a collective of believers, but YOU as a believer. I didn't make that clear. Nevertheless, I meant no disrespect, and stand corrected.
None taken totally.. I used to live in fear of Hell and fear of the God that is depicted in the bible when I was a child. I will not bore any of you with my story of how I have arrived at my current level of belief because, quite frankly, it would be boring to each of you and I suspect that I may be accused of arrogantly trying to cover up the fact that I still think like others (despite my attempts to show differently)
So, you are unique; or you have an ego to deal with. I'd guess the latter.
Most believers are probably like you. Belittling them by insisting that they act out of fear (while you, great thinker that you convince yourself you are, don't) does nothing but make one assume you do too; but either don't recognize it or won't admit it.Not at all. I don't insist anything. I am speaking from some experience. I used to believe in God and follow a lot of things out of fear. I never questioned anything I was told as a child because I was afraid I was going to Hell for asking questions. Now I didn't say my statement applied to all believers, but it does apply to a majority of some that I have actually had interactions with..
but as far as ego.. We all have an ego of some type to deal with. Even you, feels it is up to you to jump in and defend people who don't need you to defend them
.. I mean why else would you feel it necessary to comment on my ego?Because it is ego that drives such behavior.
It's funny, because I read your hub on how women should submit to their husbands. You don't see that as indoctrination. I suppose, because you directly benefit from said belief. You accuse the majority quite frequently; then back it down to those you encountered.
It isn't ego that drives my comments as much as the disappointment of watching the cannibalism in your behavior toward others of your faith.But what is it that makes you the savior or spokesperson for those people?? Why is it that YOU feel the need to defend them?? Are they so unable to speak for themselves that they need you to be their voice? you have no idea of who I am, not my story and you accuse me of something you have no idea about. Your ego is driving you to comment on it otherwise why bother?
- That is so hypocritical. How many times have you interjected, in defense of others? Get real. If you post nonsense, it is an open forum. Others can reply.
Edit. And if you publish hubs with clearly indoctrinated ideas, I'm pretty sure Hub Pages policy allows me to comment in the forums.
I'm sorry (goes back and rereads statement) my sarcasm missed the mark. I am more than aware of everything you have just stated. Please believe me, I don't think the bible as written is the word of God. My statement was actually a way of stating that a lot of believers depend wayyyy too much on God, which (as according to my understanding of the bible, which could be wrong) I don't think was intended. I've even stated on other forums that The bible was not written by God.
I'm glad that you are aware of my belief structure considering that you have never actually spoken to me directly. I never stated that I spoke with God. I have never stated that I have met God. Nor have I ever stated that I have any proof of God. This is our first encounter, so I understand your assumption is formulated of believers based on what you may have encountered before and have no hard feelings. But one thing I assure you of is that I will never attack you for questioning my beliefs (but word of advice- please make sure you know my beliefs before you preemptively jump on them). I have stated on numerous occasions, on different forums, and to different atheists here (including Getit, and ATM) that I am more than open to the idea that I could be wrong and that my beliefs are not based on an absolute certainty.. But thanks for at least showing me that you think All believers are the same (which we aren't)
I agree with this as well. Which is why I don't hold any idea on any of the stories and fables.. I really don't. I think they are as much of a reductionist explanation of events that are way more complicated than what is written. I also believe that most of the stories in the Bible are written and inspired of what MAN's idea of what they think God should be versus what he (if he exists out of respect to you and the others) truly is.
1. I don't know.. I never knew, and would never hazard any guesses of magic. then again, there is no proof of him actually physically manifesting on this earth.
2. You assume that I actually believe that this is what is meant by man being made in God's image.. How do you know I think that this is a literal physical scripture? I don't believe this is the case at all. therefore your assumptions about me are off base. sorry. I will state this again.. I have no proof of anything, therefore I do not hold to my belief as a certainty.
3. I agree with you. The fact that God created all of this stuff in the first place is a glaring flaw in the plan and design..
There, logic.. not magic
Again, you have made an incorrect assumption of me. It is obvious that you haven't followed some of the other threads that I have commented on, otherwise you might not have made as many baseless statements about me. But I most certainly appreciate and can understand why you would come at me like you have. A lot of the believers here have a difficult time separating themselves from their beliefs.. I have no such hangup. I am not at all angry with you and I also disagree with people telling you are going to Hell. I cannot send you somewhere that there is no proof of the existence of. Even if there were proof, I do not have the power to condemn you to that place anyway so I wouldn't dare do it. In fact, I believe that if the God of the bible and Hell are real , then a lot of believers will be very surprised at what answer they will get when they get to the gates..
Believe it or not, I hold closer to to science than I do with Organized religion. Then again, In my understanding of the bible (flawed and limited though it may be) I have my own set of beliefs that Believers are against. I have been told that I am going to Hell for believing the way I believe regarding the bible.
This whole post has been ridiculing a belief system that you assumed that I had, not a belief system that I actually have. I am not really insulted by it. I am more confused and partially amused at how you were able to put all of this stuff together about me without even having a conversation with me.. (By the way, you mostly missed the mark by a long mile)
But thanks for engaging meYou presume too much. My statements are aimed at believers in the supernatural, not you specifically. Of course I do not know you as you do not know me. But what we both know is the biblical god, or any god for that matter, is a supernatural being and you cannot argue that. My entire discourse points out the irrational and illogical thought processes that generally make up most, if not all, believers arguments in proof of the supernatural.
Nothing in your reply went toward proving your god, although I put forth some logical questions disproving the biblical man god. One form of argument that the religiously inclined tend to follow is to argue everything but proof of their god. They have no proof of god, so they curve off on tangents and argue the collateral. The reason being that there are no facts, no logic, no rational arguments to prove their contentions.
As regards the bible, the bible IS accepted by most Christians, and other faiths, as "the word." As they also acknowledge belief in a specific god. And that Jesus as the son of god. As that the resurrection happened. One Minister relayed to me that if he did not believe in the resurrection, he could not believe in god.
I applaud you personally if you challenge religious history. But if you are saying you choose to believe some religious dogma and not some other religious dogma, then you are creating your own religion. And, unless you had some divine intervention that revealed to you the truth of god, all you or any of us can truly say is "there is no proof of any god."
If you have proof, please lay it out.
p.s. Please do not take anything I write as a personal attack on you. It is not meant as a personal attack. It is only meant to get beyond the irrational and illogical reasoning presented by so many regarding the supernatural. If more people used their minds to think before believing in Jesus or Zeus or the Easter Bunny as they finally believed Copernicus about the Earth revolving around the Sun (the idea was proposed some 1500 years prior, but Ptolemy convinced the world otherwise) then the bible might not be so popular a book.Please forgive my presumption. The fact that you replied to my comment and some of your wording made it appear that you were addressing me directly. I do not argue that the biblical God is portrayed as a supernatural being that interjects himself into our lives. I disagree with that protrayal.
Nothing in my reply was aimed at trying to prove my god.. I could've sworn I said that I have no proof of my belief. If I didn't then I apologize. But No, I have no proof of my belief nor do I have any way of proving what I believe. Because of this, I can admit that I could be wrong in my understanding of what I've written in the Bible. I do not hold to my belief as an absolute certainty beyond any shadow of a doubt. I am still searching for more conclusive answers one way or another. Thankfully, I no longer live my life in fear of any punishments nor looking for any reward for good deeds. Because I have no proof of the existence of a Hell, I cannot fear what may very well not exist. I also do not condemn anyone to a place that may not exist. My beliefs such as they are only apply to me as they are what is working best for my life at this current point. I have no desire to convert anyone over to my way of thinking because 1) Knowing that I could be wrong, I wouldn't want to lead anyone in the wrong direction. 2) in order for someone else to believe what I believe the way I believe it, they would have had to share my experiences and came to the same understanding I have. This is not totally possible because even if we share an experience, we could look at it in two totally different ways. 3) I have no proof to support my belief (opinion). 4)Whatever you believe has no effect one way or the other on my life directly. Therefore, what's the point in trying to convert you. Your life and beliefs (or lack thereof) are your own
True. It is accepted by Most as the infallible Word of God. I, however do not fall in that category of those that believe that the bible was written by God. The bible was written by man who were conveying their idea of what they THINK God should be, which of course would make a majority of the book sketchy at best. Does this mean that the events didn't happen at all? no. It's possible they did happen as written. But it is also possible that they didn't happen as written or at all. I can't prove anything at all beyond a shadow of a doubt, But I cannot hold total stock in the words of people that did not have access to the resources we have today. Especially considering the fact that Most of the bible is myth that provide a basic and reductive explanation for something that could be more complicated. Because of this, I try to be careful with the way I word certain things and I even sometimes add a disclaimer when i mention God (if one exists out of respect). I have a lot of respect for atheists because You live a life that (based on my understanding of the bible and the conclusions I've drawn) believers should be living (a life independent of God). I do believe in God, But I don't look to him as the total answer for everything. I especially don't think he has his hand in every little thing that some people look to him for (a lot of the supernatural stuff that you mentioned)
I am not creating my own religion at all. In my opinion I am practicing as according to one specific definition of religion. A personal set of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices (key word- personal, as in pertaining only to ME, not anyone else).
I don't take anything as a personal attack. I am a believer, but I am able to separate myself from my beliefs and can accept that my opinion can and will change as things become more concrete. And as far as the supernatural, if you are going where I think you are, I don't believe that God does everything supernaturally. There are some things that as yet are not answered, but I won't totally jump over to Goddunnit without proof of that. God (for me) is not the answer to unanswered questions
getitrite:
I understand exactly what you mean. I live in constant fear of debate with "non-atheists," as so many of them tend to argue using no rational thought and tending to describe others as being unreasonable while in fact they are the unreasonable. It is impossible to debate with most. There was this one Minister I debated with online recently who I applaud at his ability to be non-argumentative and pleasant in debate and his leaving the bible out of the debate. But he is a rare exception.
I once posed a scenario to a group of friends at a party. I told them to assume I have just announced I am Jesus Christ returned to the Earth. I told them to think how they would perceive my announcement of being the son of god returned in their lifetime. I told them to think about how they accept a Nazarene's announcement made over 2000 years ago that he was the son of god. Would it be more difficult to believe the son of god was born to a woman of this Earth if born in our lifetime, and I said I was him? Would you entertain believing me? While most of our group contemplated my scenario, a devote Catholic man in our group lashed out at me in anger. He yelled I was not the son of god. I told him I never said I was; I just said, suppose I said I was. That did not calm him down. He had to be calmed down by other people in the room and talked out of leaving the house party as he was rushing for the exit. What happened was I struck a chord with him. I planted a seed of doubt in his mind about his beliefs and unable to defend his beliefs, he attacked me personally. He had no facts to defend his belief in the supernatural, so he lashed out. This is just one extreme example.
Religious fanatics have no facts to back up their erroneous beliefs, so when backed into a corner where the need to respond with proofs becomes necessary, and not having these proofs, they lash out in anger and accuse everyone not in agreement with them of being unable to debate. In Logic this is called attacking the person and it is an invalid argument of logic. It is a tactic used often when someone has no facts to back up their side of the argument or when they are losing the argument.
Another part of the problem for these fact-challenged individuals is their lack of understanding of what makes a rational and logical argument and what is a true fact. The argument against the existence of a god in man's image, or the existence of a god - period, can only be made using facts, reason and logic. Debate of the non-existence of something necessarily points out the flaws in the argument for the existence of that something. A belief in the supernatural is based on superstition and made up facts. The argument against the supernatural cannot help but point out the irrational thinking and lack of fact finding by the supernaturally inclined. That is at the heart of the argument. Unfortunately, facts and logic and reason, although they may appear insulting to some, are necessary tools at finding the truth. And the only way to point out illogical thinking is to point out - it's illogical.
The believers of supernatural god(s) quote the bible and religiously drawn history as fact. This not proof of the supernatural. The bible is a book of fables. Ask any honest man of the cloth. The bible was not written by a god. The bible is a bunch of fables passed down through generations and then collected together in one book. If you want to prove the supernatural, show us the supernatural. But then of course the irrational response to this request is always something like, "god doesn't have to prove anything to you or me." Which is the same reply as "I have no proof."
As goes religious history, religious history is written by the religious groups it promotes. Ask a Jew what is the truth of religious history. Ask a Christian what is the truth of religious history. Ask a Mormon what is the truth of religious history. Ask an American Indian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc., etc., etc. They will all give a different accounting of history. All religious history is tainted by the tenants of its core beliefs.A question. Your beliefs could easily be labeled as nonsense perpetuated by one who refuses to think. You don't appear to be open to reflection on the problem and definitely aren't open to discussion about it.
Does it bother you any that you are a reflection of that which you rail against?Those, who think that rejecting nonsense...IS nonsensical...can label me as anything they would like. I just consider the source, and LOL.
I didn't even realize I was doing that. Wow. Are you sure you are reading, and comprehending my posts properly?Pretty sure. The problem is you don't do anything but ridicule. You don't bring intelligent arguments to the table. There is honestly no indication of thought, but lots of indication of emotionally driven behavior.
No offense, but i think that is somewhat a reflection of you. I think this very post validates that. If anyone were to go back and read through these forums, I doubt if they would come to such a bizarre conclusion as that. It seems that your criticism of me is not objective, but rather emotionally driven.
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