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Why Didn't God Prevent Rick Warren's Son's Death?

  1. getitrite profile image79
    getitriteposted 3 years ago

    As a person raised to believe in the message that has been preached for years about God and Jesus, and what they can do, and how merciful they are, I have never been able to understand why people continue to pray to God, when He doesn't prevent something He could have, clearly, prevented, especially since Rick's son was a good Christian, Rick himself is a MAN OF GOD, and the congregation was earnestly praying for his son's recovery.

    http://news.yahoo.com/church-pastor-ric … 06608.html

    1. Disappearinghead profile image89
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I think millions of Christians will struggle with this one. "Why did God provide me with a parking space after I prayed when I went shopping, but didn't intervene to save Rick's son despite all those thousands of prayers?" Kind of puts the pop culture Christianity into perspective.

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Agreed.  When I was younger, I was a devout Christian.  I prayed all the time...for years.  Not one prayer was ever answered.  To me, it surely was nothing but false hope.

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The article said that over the years his son had been treated by America's best doctors.  Sounds to me like the medical profession fell down on this one.

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        But if the medical professionals had fixed him, all the praise would have gone to God.  So how do you explain that?

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Who says the praise would have gone to God? You? I guess it's up to you to explain then. You're the one blaming God for his death.

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I'll have to answer that when I get back.  I'm going to church for awhile. big_smile.  No, but seriously, I'll answer you when I come back.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              lol cute. Seriously.

              I'll be waiting. smile

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            If I may take a guess.. From what I've noticed in my life, When someone gets healed from an injury or an illness that could be life threatening, Most believers immediately give the glory to God for saving the person healed rather than showing acknowledgment to the efforts of the medical profession as well as our own body's regenerative ability. For some, God is the ultimate answer to all things and nothing else matters. There are few reports of someone dealing with an illness or injury that stayed home and prayed then got healed. There more often than not would be some medical records that would have some treatment history for the issue.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That may, or may not be. Either way, generalizations get tedious after a while.  I don't know any believers who ignore the benefits of medical science, or stay away from the doctor because they assume a miracle is going to cure them.

              But, let's be realistic. Medicine isn't a 100%    cure for all that ails us. I should know. Three people close to me have died from different diseases when the medical profession didn't have the breakthroughs needed before they passed away. 

              Let's take cancer as an example. Some live, some die. Some approach death's door, all hope is lost and the doctors suggest it is time to get your affairs in order. Inexplicably, it goes into remission. The doctor admits she is stumped, but happy. Do you think she is offended that someone thanks God?  Unless her name is getitrite, I doubt it.

              Why do we spend more time insisting we are smarter than others than we spend getting to know and understand them? I've always believed every human being has cause for their beliefs. Reasons to come to their unique cosmic conclusion. And whether we understand or not is determined by our desire to understand and their desire to be understood. But, when we approach a scenario with a biased opinion, as if their conclusions are inherently wrong, they naturally assume the same of ours. The dialogue is killed before it started. Which is a shame. Those who thank God display a beautiful humility that is consistently lacking in those who assume that simply because they thank God they aren't taking all factors into account when they do so.

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                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Great points. Of course I wouldn't think a doctor would get personally offended if someone thanks God instead of them, especially if the doctor is a believer as well. I looked back at my response and I can see where my posting could seem very much as if I'm saying all most believers do is immediately go to God without considering any other factors. I think (I apologize in advance Getit for assuming) that I was trying to hazard a guess as to why Getit made his specific response.

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                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  And I figured that. Which is why the response was more directed at getitrite's point of view than yours.

          3. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No way a Christian would ever praise God for healing their loved ones....after the doctors did all the work.  That never ever happens.   lol  I must certainly be just making up stuff.  lol



            Yep.  I made up the whole thing.  Get real.



            Now you're just making up stuff.  I asked a question as to why this God, that these people are praying to, just didn't answer their prayer and as a result this ultimate tragedy occurred.  Why pray to a God if He doesn't respond to your request,especially in your darkest hour?

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You are judging harshly. The question is why? I can only assume you were once a Christian who believed in miracles and didn't get one. You can't take personal experience and extrapolate universal conclusions. The Christians I knew who prayed for help also stoicly accepted outcomes that didn't meet their highest hopes.  They didn't blame God for not fulfilling their prayer.

              Maybe that is the difference? These Christians aren't actively seeking a scape goat for  unmet desires? Maybe they don't think the universe revolves around then?

              1. getitrite profile image79
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                So I guess god, for no apparent reason, thinks I should suffer, while granting other people, for no apparent reason, their request. 



                That's called being brain washed, or indoctrinated.  Why should someone waste their life praying, and never get any results, except, occasionally, claiming things that would meet the same standard for CHANCE?  That's madness.



                That's just blatantly untrue.  In your zeal to discredit me, I guess you forgot all about Satan, whom Christians have continually used as a scape goat. 



                No, they just think that they are in a personal relationship with the creator of the universe.  That's all.

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                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Look, if you expect God to wipe your nose you will definitely be disappointed. If you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, you will usually get by.

                  I'm not suggesting that there aren't some people in the world similar to the ones you are railing against. But, since the lion's share of the Christian community isn't...what's the point?

                  1. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You speak of God as if He actually exist or something.  Just in case you've forgotten, God is imaginary, so your claims are absurd.  Logically, I should expect nothing from a being that doesn't exist.  That would be delusional.



                    Which has absolutely nothing to do with  a worthless, all powerful, incompetent God.



                    Another blatantly false statement.

  2. RealityTalk profile image60
    RealityTalkposted 3 years ago

    I too fail to understand why so many good people have to suffer in the world.  I have difficulties understanding why - anyone - has to suffer in the world.  If I or you had the ability to end pain and suffering, wouldn't we?  So I cannot help asking, "if god exists, why won't god stop pain and suffering?"  It's painful to know that I can do very little to help anyone.  It must be perplexing to any god fearing man or woman as to why god does does nothing to help anyone.  Although, some will say god does help, now and then; although they say so with no visible, tangible god as proof.

    Many religious people espouse the belief that god has "a plan. Do not question god's plan."  But what plan involves good people suffering in pain and bad people living in splendor and luxury?

    Has anyone asked themselves the following?  If god exists and god is all powerful.  If god exists and god can create, destroy, fix and do anything.  How can god understand creatures such as man that cannot do all god can do?  How can god expect creatures such as man to rise to the stature of god?  Is not man imperfect by nature?  And, whose fault is it if we cannot rise to godly stature?  Man did not create man.  God created man, right?  So if god created man, is not god responsible for man's many faults?  And if god is responsible, why does man need to prove himself through pain and suffering?

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Is it possible that the answer can be found in your statement "It must be perplexing to any god fearing man or woman as to why god does does nothing to help anyone"?

      If people don't fear Him and what he does, they won't follow Him (in the guise of organized churches) and fill their collection plates?  If people understood what He wants of us and no longer need a priest to tell us will we still pay the priest?

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Can't honestly argue with that, especially the  "in the guise of organized churches" part.
        Remembering how many different organized religions there are!

            Just suppose that we had our consciousness before this physical life, and after this life is over, that which we do to ourselves and each other has little significance in the overall picture

    2. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It apparently means, perpetually, defining and redefining God, until you, inevitably,  run into a myriad of contradictions.

  3. Greekgeek profile image96
    Greekgeekposted 3 years ago

    The question of "if God is good, why is there evil?" is one of those eternal questions that all religions struggle to answer. In fact, there's a name for this question: theodicy.

    The theodicy issue is a major reason why most people embrace one religion or another, since most religions provide at least some response to the question of "why bad things happen to good people." (See: Book of Job for a halting attempt at explanation.)

    And yet when things like this happen, people find that religion doesn't have all the answers, unless you're a polytheist or believe in something like Zoroastrianism that accounts for the presence of evil in the world.

    There's no answer. It's one of the biggest mysteries of life. Either you become agnostic, or atheist, or assume that there is some higher purpose to suffering (God has to permit free will, which means permitting us to fall down and break our legs; God set up the initial parameters of creation but can't interfere with the day-to-day workings; we're atoning for original sin / sins of our ancestors; we're sinful and deserve punishment; God works in mysterious ways and maybe there's some greater good we don't know about; suffering makes us humble; God is testing our faith; etc, etc, etc).

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It seems that God is eternally evasive.

  4. Mark Johann profile image60
    Mark Johannposted 3 years ago

    Before you question about religion and God, I think it would be better to know first the whole thing about these. We should not base our principle on our own limited mentality and understanding. It might confuse us. Learn.

    Ask and God will answer you in a way you cannot understand.

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What are you saying?

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      First of all, you contradict yourself when you say we should not base principle on 'limited mentality and understanding' claiming it "might confuse us" and then end it off with, "Learn".

      What is confusing is when explanations cannot be understood when they contradict themselves.



      Then, God is completely and utterly a waste of time for answering questions.

      However, it you ever get a chance to talk with God, let him know we puny humans ask questions in order to understand so as not to remain ignorant and confused.

  5. wbfree profile image60
    wbfreeposted 3 years ago

    Why should God HAVE TO HAD prevented Rick Warren's son's death? Why SHOULD He? God gave us a free will. Warren's son chose to take his own life. Also, Rick Warren's doctrine is false and he is apostate. He is not a true Christian. You can't fool God. I would imagine his son subscribed to those same false doctrines. God is not obligated to be at the beckon and call of apostates. God is not a big genie in the sky to perform wishes for anyone. He is the creator of all things. Even those who belong to him should ask for their prayers to be answered according to his [God's] will.

    You need to read the Bible and learn the nature and character of God. There is not enough time and space on this forum to answers such deep things of God. But briefly, God created man without sin. Man sinned and so we have to deal with the results of sin [pain, sickness, difficulty, evil, wickedness, despair, death....]. God sent his only begotten Son Jesus to repair the relationship between God the Father and mankind. He did succeed, but he has not yet chosen to put an end to all of the wickedness in the world yet. In this period of time, God is giving all of us the opportunity to choose which side we want to be on. Do you want to accept Jesus Christ as Saviour & Lord OR do you want to go your own way, which leads to eternal death? One day Jesus Christ WILL step in and put an end to the this world system with it's pain, corruption, death, etc. That time is coming sooner than we think.

    The bottom line is  that this present life is not the "be all to end all". Those who die in Christ will live again to rule and reign with Jesus and God. It does not matter what ANYONE says. God is God and we are not.

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I see.  Thanks for participating.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Rick Warren pretty much believes the same thing you do.

      1. wbfree profile image60
        wbfreeposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        How do YOU know what I believe? I suggest you find out what the Bible says and then read up on Warren's false doctrines then perhaps you'll be able to figure it out, but I doubt it.

        FYI: A head knowledge of the gospel does not equal the heart knowledge of it. You see, demons and devils know and believe the truth of the gospel, but they're going to hell.

        1. getitrite profile image79
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Wow! Hell fire and brimstone.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Uh... I quoted you... they were your words. See above, your post.



          Perhaps, Warren is then free to add to the already growing list of 43,000 denominations of Christianity, each with their own set of false doctrines opposing the Bible and setting alight the ire and disdain of the others superior righteousness.



          I'm all a flutter to hear who has appointed themselves the ultimate arbiter of that distinction?

          Would you happen to know?



          Just like the compassionate non-believer who rejects gospels, but takes the time to help others in need, does not go to hell.

        3. Disappearinghead profile image89
          Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Woah there chummy. You say Rick Warren was an apostate, a man of false doctrines, but then go on to talk about demons and devils? Hello Pot, I'm Kettle, your'e black. If you'd ever read the Old Testament you would see that devils and demons do not exist, and the only reason that the early Church believed and wrote about them was because they held the same superstitious beliefs as the Jews of Jesus' time.

    3. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I agree ....       
        however what comes to mind while reading your post is that Rev. 13 explains that power is given to the beast for 42 months to blaspheme.  This 42 months in prophesy IS not 42 months as we see them in this physical world. 42 months is equal to approx 1645 of our years. The same way that 62 weeks as described in Daniel 9 lasted 568 of our years.
          The Lord has blinded our eyes on this matter the same way that he blinded the eyes of those Hebrews concerning the arrival of the messiah in the first century.
          SOooo   I don't think that he will be sending anyone to hell for not seeing that which God blinded them to.
      That being said ...   We need to rethink the story that organized religion has been teaching.  Cause the blind should not attempt to lead the blind.  On the other hand ...  those who recieve wisdom, ...  much more is expected from them.  If you know something to be wrong and we do it any way, we will be held accountable much more than those that didn't know.
         I have faith in my God that if he causes me to be blind, I will not be punished for my blindness.

  6. RealityTalk profile image60
    RealityTalkposted 3 years ago

    You do realize the bible is a book of fables ... don't you?  I am reading all these posts quoting the bible about the beast and so on and so on and I am scared that so many believe these fairy tales.

    Just as a note of interest regarding "the beast."  The culture at the time of that particular fable followed numerology.  The number of the beast was that of a Roman ruler; possibly Cesar. As think authors of today, the end of the world was looked upon as happening in the lifetime of those fable writing authors.  Everyone wants to believe they are at the center of the great happenings in the Universe; whether its the Universe's beginning or its destruction.  It makes people feel important.

    Regarding good things that happen on this Earth.  Doctors heal people, not god.  Football teams win football games, not god.  Rich people build their fortunes, not god.  Mothers feed their babies, not god.  Farmers grow crops, not god.  Man invented heated homes to survive year round in cold climates, not god. To believe otherwise is to believe there exist a god that chooses to help some people and chooses not to help others. 

    Do you really believe god chooses some people to suffer and not be healed?  That one football team should lose to another?  That some people should never have wealth?  That some babies should starve to death?  That some people should not be successful at growing crops and feeding their families?  That some people should freeze to death?  To believe this is no more than fitting an imaginary god to the reality of the world. 

    As regards "free choice."  I believe in free choice as much as the next man.  But choice is something all living creatures have.  Choice is ours as much as what we have to work with; i.e. what life and our parents genetics gave us at birth. It is not god given; it is man's nature.  It is also another convenient answer fitting an imaginary god to the reality of the world.

    Please think.  Don't give something that does not exist credit for the good in the world; credit that is due your parents, your spouse, your children, your family, your friends, your neighbors, your fellow man.

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    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    You're right. The children of ppl who preach the bible should be exempt from natural laws. Like the children of world ambassadors, free from all consequence. With those guidelines established, we could have them rob from the very rich and give to the very poor! That way, with their super power like status, they could help make the world a better place. Or... we are all under the same natural laws, to live and die and accept the good and bad life brings us.

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    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    What seems the most offensive is the fact that some mans child has died and instead of being empathetic, you are using the tragedy as a way to lash out at him personally in public no less. What was his crime again? Oh yeah... he has faith in God.

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      At the risk of becoming inundated in attacks, I'm going to make an observation.

      Reading through the forums over the years, the most vehement atheist posts appear to come from individuals who are ex Christians. They didn't get something they desperately prayed for. I guess we all have moments of weakness and emotional turmoil when it would have been wonderful if providence could have changed things; but how we go on with our lives is more important than anything else.

      Unresolved issues are always troubling.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You're absolutely right. I am usually quite compassionate about things like that, but when I see great injustices, something in me rises up. It just seems so cruel to criticize a good man who will never see his son again this side of Heaven again. I should learn to exhale more.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I can't imagine the pain it could cause for the parents to have to read through this thread. The loss of a loved one shouldn't be used in this manner.

          We just recently had a suicide in our community. I used to be friends with the guy. I hadn't seen him in years, but I still felt bad. Wondering if there was anything I could have done. Suicide is so tragic. When it happens I feel we have somehow failed another human being in their time of need.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It's so human... the first thought being 'I wonder if there's anything I could have done.'
            Im sorry for your loss.

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              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It can especially hurt when it's done in front of you before you even have a chance to act.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's beyond what any normal parent could handle.

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        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I can agree with some of this statement. I can't help but to wonder what else could have caused someone to become atheist. There has to be more to it than a simple lack of evidence, right?

      3. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        How presumptuous of you.  I guess the fact that there is no evidence to support the claims of these beliefs is just no reason, in itself, for ex-Christian to denounce these beliefs.  I guess you have to connect an emotional component.  I wonder why?

        Maybe your observation has some merit, but your conclusion is pure conjecture.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I appreciate you not offering an emotional response. I agree, it is conjecture; but I find it telling that those from strong ex Christian backgrounds are exceedingly similar. And, I did have one of those tell me, point blank, she was miffed when she realized she couldn't have what she prayed for. It was the turning point in her faith.

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, and that equates to being mad at God.  But I would think that the majority of atheist are indignant at the fact that others are continually trying to brain wash us into accepting something that we have already concluded, through reason, is nothing but a fraud.  I'm not proposing that atheist are absolutely sure of whether or not there is a God, but it is an insult to the intellect to just make up stuff, then feed it to us as children, knowing that it has no basis in fact. 

            Yes, I'm from a religious family.  My father, like Warren, was a minister.   At some point in my youth, I began to see the glaring contradictions in these beliefs.  It wasn't out of anger because my selfish prayers weren't answered, it was because I could not ignore the disparities.  It wasn't until later that I realized that not one of my prayers had ever been answered.

            Although I sometimes state that there is no god, I do understand that absolute statements like that can be logically challenged, therefore, I guess my position is more towards atheist/agnostic.  But let's be serious, can we even put the Abrahamic Gods in the running when assessing whether or not there is a god, as these are simply taken from ancient text of dubious authorship, and are properly described as ridiculous..

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              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you for sharing this. I'm learning more and more about each of you. Not all of you are outright total atheists. some of you lean more toward the atheist side of agnosticism because you would rather not blindly something that there is no proof of.. Is that about right?

              1. getitrite profile image79
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                That's about right.  If there is a God out there that makes direct contact, and tells me that he is God, then proves it, that would be a game changer.  If a UFO landed right in front of me, while wide awake,  in the middle of the day, and the aliens took everyone in town to another galaxy, that would change my perceptions too..

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                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Let me ask you this then since we are on subject. If God did speak to you and proved himself to you, would you take the time to ask him anything at all or would you simply hold that he is how he is depicted in the bible and walk away from him?

                  1. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Please understand that I am not referring to the God of the bible when I speak of "a God"

                    If the God of the bible, actually proved to be real, I would go completely mad.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I appreciate where you are coming from; to an extent. But no one is attempting to brain wash anyone.  People have beliefs. They share their beliefs. You appear to believe that act is a demand for consensus. I'm not certain why. If I thought others were attempting to brain wash me every time they shared a thought I'd be inclined to seek professional help.

    2. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No.  I do empathize with this tragedy, but, then, I can't help but point out that this man of God's son could not be saved through all these prayers, yet people insist that we keep on praying all the time.  I'm not lashing out at him.  I'm just trying to get people to see the irony.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        But no where in the Bible did God promise us a perfect life. He only promises that in Heaven. The Bible actually tells us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust... meaning that bad things will happen to good ppl and bad ppl. God does not cause it, it is just a natural consequence of living in an imperfect world. What He does promise is that He wont leave our side during our trials. I can tell you I just survived a trial that began in 2007, that I wished, at the time, I could have just died. It would have been preferable to me. However, I knew even thru the worst of it, God was with me. I felt His love stronger when I was living in sin then even when I was being a "good girl." I am stronger than I was then and though I wouldn't wish that time on anyone, I have learned a great deal from it.

        And a side note... thank you for sharing something personal instead of just attacking. It makes it so much easier to communicate honestly with each other.

        1. getitrite profile image79
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If that's the case, then why should we pray?



          I would prefer that a friend helped me, if he could.  Sometimes just being by my side doesn't help.  That's like if my electric power was disconnected, and my friend stays by my side, in my dark freezing house, while having $50,0000 dollars in his pocket.  What good is just having him there, with money, if he refuses to help me?  He could say how much he cares about me all he wants, but his actions is what signifies love and care.



          I never understood how someone could actually feel love coming from a character that they read about in a book, or that someone told them was real..



          No problem.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Thats like saying to a kid, "Sometimes when you ask your parents for things, they say no, so why should you talk to them?" We pray so as to have a relationship with Christ. He does answer our prayers, He says yes, no and wait. Just like any good parent, cause He knows whats best for us. Maybe we need a new car, but maybe He knows what we need most is humility. So we bum rides until we learn. Or maybe the mechanic is our future spouse, or maybe He wants us to learn to trust Him and when we give up fighting to get our way, we turn around and we find we have a new car. Things like this happen to me ALL the time, for years and years. God does care about our needs, but He knows which needs are most important and He meets those first. We have to stop fighting Him and give Him control, learn to trust Him.

            I don't know how to explain that I felt His love. I should have felt shame. I should have wanted to run away, but I felt Him watching over me. I felt His patience. I felt that forgiveness was waiting for me and that He was on my side. I wish I could impart these feelings to you, cause believe me... I wasn't anything like a Christian during this time, and I felt Him more than ever. Maybe some day you will come to that place. I pray you do.

            1. getitrite profile image79
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Why do you keep comparing mortal humans to an all powerful creator?   Sorry but if the same rules apply to God that apply to parents, then we should pray to our parents as well.  In fact our parents have actually done stuff for us that can be attributed directly to them, God hasn't.



              Maybe He knows that He needs to allow us to get AIDS. Maybe He knows that He needs for some of us to be gunned down in public places when a deranged gunman goes on a mass murder attack.    Maybe He Knows that some of us need to get ripped to pieces by tornadoes.  Am I following you correctly on this?



              Sorry, I know you really want to believe you felt the presence of a fictional character from a book of Bronze Age myths, but this sounds more like an overactive imagination.

  9. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I can't take you two anywhere.

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sure you can.. This dialogue is actually more of a discussion (which we both prefer) than an actual debate. Emile and I are actually getting along on this one

  10. SwordofManticorE profile image75
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Maybe God wanted His son to come back home? Why is it always the athiest who ask these "why" questions?

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Typically (from what i've noticed) atheists ask these questions because a lot of believers won't. A majority of believers will simply chalk it up to events being in "God's will". The flaw in this specific thinking is that if everything that is done is ultimately in God's will, then what role does free will come into play? And if in this free will someone decides there is no more hope (not even in God) and commits suicide and it is in God's will, then this would contradict the idea of a loving God in a sense because Rather than calling his son home to spare him  any more anguish, God could simply touch his spirit and heal his mind.

      Again, this is simply an observation

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You already know Deepes that I dont believe in a free will, There for, God gives life and He takes it according to His overall plan.

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Oh yeah.. That's right SOM.. It's been a while..lol

    2. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So if that was God's will, what good would all this incessant prayer do?  To continue to believe in something, after you have witnessed the abject failure of it on so many occasions, is absurd.



      Because blind followers are too afraid of authority.  That's how those priest were able to get away with their horrible crimes for years.  No one ever questioned anything, as long as it came from what they perceived as God.  That era is over.

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        As it is said to live and let live, why dont you allow people to believe and let believe.

        1. getitrite profile image79
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You can believe whatever nonsense you want, but I'm still gonna point out how insane these beliefs are, and that they are tailored for people who are too afraid to think for themselves.

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I have a simple solution to that problem. I will just ignor anything else you have to say getitrte. Because you are not here to help, you are here to harm. And btw, there is nothing about an athiest that I am afraid of.

            i encourage all believers to just ignor the athiests rantings and get on with life. Debating with an athiest is a total waste of time.

            1. getitrite profile image79
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              OK. Bye.  We'll be praying for you, but don't expect any kind of results, because prayer only works when it's God's will.....and 99.9% of the time it's not His will.

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                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                lol lol lol

                99.9%    of the time it isn't his will. Really? How do you come to that conclusion? I thought you didn't believe in God.

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
                  SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  He doesn't, he is only here to pick a fight. Just ignor him.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Good advice. smile

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                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Maybe it is His will, but people have misinterpreted the application of said will.

                1. getitrite profile image79
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Then it appears that "chance" is indistinguishable from "God's will"

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                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Exactly, in a lot of cases. In others, abject and total dependence on God is also against God's will (OMG, did a believer just say that??)

                    We just don't know for sure and the Bible (as written) certainly doesn't provide as clear answers as it could (OMG, I did it again!!!)

          2. RealityTalk profile image60
            RealityTalkposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            getitrite:

            I understand exactly what you mean.  I live in constant fear of debate with "non-atheists," as so many of them tend to argue using no rational thought and tending to describe others as being unreasonable while in fact they are the unreasonable.  It is impossible to debate with most.  There was this one Minister I debated with online recently who I applaud at his ability to be non-argumentative and pleasant in debate and his leaving the bible out of the debate.  But he is a rare exception.

            I once posed a scenario to a group of friends at a party.  I told them to assume I have just announced I am Jesus Christ returned to the Earth.  I told them to think how they would perceive my announcement of being the son of god returned in their lifetime.  I told them to think about how they accept a Nazarene's announcement made over 2000 years ago that he was the son of god.  Would it be more difficult to believe the son of god was born to a woman of this Earth if born in our lifetime, and I said I was him?  Would you entertain believing me?  While most of our group contemplated my scenario, a devote Catholic man in our group lashed out at me in anger.  He yelled I was not the son of god.  I told him I never said I was; I just said, suppose I said I was.  That did not calm him down.  He had to be calmed down by other people in the room and talked out of leaving the house party as he was rushing for the exit. What happened was I struck a chord with him.  I planted a seed of doubt in his mind about his beliefs and unable to defend his beliefs, he attacked me personally.  He had no facts to defend his belief in the supernatural, so he lashed out.  This is just one extreme example. 

            Religious fanatics have no facts to back up their erroneous beliefs, so when backed into a corner where the need to respond with proofs becomes necessary, and not having these proofs, they lash out in anger and accuse everyone not in agreement with them of being unable to debate.  In Logic this is called attacking the person and it is an invalid argument of logic.  It is a tactic used often when someone has no facts to back up their side of the argument or when they are losing the argument.

            Another part of the problem for these fact-challenged individuals is their lack of understanding of what makes a rational and logical argument and what is a true fact.  The argument against the existence of a god in man's image, or the existence of a god - period, can only be made using facts, reason and logic.  Debate of the non-existence of something necessarily points out the flaws in the argument for the existence of that something.  A belief in the supernatural is based on superstition and made up facts.  The argument against the supernatural cannot help but point out the irrational thinking and lack of fact finding by the supernaturally inclined. That is at the heart of the argument. Unfortunately, facts and logic and reason, although they may appear insulting to some, are necessary tools at finding the truth.  And the only way to point out illogical thinking is to point out - it's illogical.

            The believers of supernatural god(s) quote the bible and religiously drawn history as fact.  This not proof of the supernatural.  The bible is a book of fables.  Ask any honest man of the cloth.  The bible was not written by a god.  The bible is a bunch of fables passed down through generations and then collected together in one book.  If you want to prove the supernatural, show us the supernatural.  But then of course the irrational response to this request is always something like, "god doesn't have to prove anything to you or me."  Which is the same reply as "I have no proof."

            As goes religious history, religious history is written by the religious groups it promotes.  Ask a Jew what is the truth of religious history.  Ask a Christian what is the truth of religious history.  Ask a Mormon what is the truth of religious history.  Ask an American Indian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc., etc., etc.  They will all give a different accounting of history.  All religious history is tainted by the tenants of its core beliefs.

          3. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            A question. Your beliefs could easily be labeled as nonsense perpetuated by one who refuses to think. You don't appear to be open to reflection on the problem and definitely aren't open to discussion about it.

            Does it bother you any that you are a reflection of that which you rail against?

            1. getitrite profile image79
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Those, who think that rejecting nonsense...IS nonsensical...can label me as anything they would like.  I just consider the source, and LOL.



              I didn't even realize I was doing that.  Wow.  Are you sure you are reading, and comprehending my posts properly?

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Pretty sure. The problem is you don't do anything but ridicule. You don't bring intelligent arguments to the table. There is honestly no indication of thought, but lots of indication of emotionally driven behavior.

                1. getitrite profile image79
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No offense, but i think that is somewhat a reflection of you.  I think this very post validates that.  If anyone were to go back and read through these forums, I doubt if they would come to such a bizarre conclusion as that.  It seems that your criticism of me is not objective, but rather emotionally driven.

 
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