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An open debate invitation....

  1. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    I am going to stop debating with Atheists for various reasons. But I am a saved Christian and my heart breaks to see people going to hell. So I am putting up one last debate. My intention is to try to make at least one person see the truth. There will be some rules and I request all to follow those rules.

    Rules
    1. Strictly stick to the topic of debate and do  not deviate from the topic. I will not respond to any post that is completely off the topic.
    2. Try not to insult or mock or abuse.
    3. Do not post one liners or one words. Post something sensible.
    4. Do not condemn a point and leave it at that. (For eg. comments like "That is nonsense" or "that does not make sense") Please explain your condemnation. (Why is it nonsense or why does it not make sense)
    5. Follow all these rules.

    Now for the topic.

    Topic of the debate


    May the Lord bless this debate.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think that there is a hell  ...  unless this is it

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I believe in universal salvation (for lack of a better description).
        I think that the majority of the punishment that we recieve for our sins are paid during this life.
        Some sins (it is said) are passed down a few generations. That is because some of our sins damage both our genetics and our finances which the effects certainly make a difference for generations to come.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What is the truth that you wish to reveal?
          Oh, sorry... I was addressing augustine 72. He said he was going to try to "make at least one person see the truth."

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I have no truth (my opinion of truth) that I haven't been expressing for quite some time.
            I think there are a number of truths ....  Can you be just a little bit more specific.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              *should* see the truth, *make* someone see the truth... those are the fighting words that others retaliate against. All of us protect our free will very strongly.
              And so we should.
              And Jesus would agree.
              IMO

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I do have a few "Truths" (in my opinion) that "I think"  everyone should know.

                In my mind these are absolute truths.  And I do not understand why anyone wouldn't see these the same way as I do.  I don't think that I have pushed these thoughts upon anyone as being the absolute truth.
                I will however throw them out there and see if anyone picks up on them.   
                At least that is what I think I'm doing.

                   ..

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The problem with trying to affect others, is that no one will be affected in the least. That is my experience!  After all, the truth is to be sought after by each person and each person will be led to the truth by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I just love Jesus and the truths he brought to me. To talk about what He said is very enjoyable to me. But, augustine 72 is right ...it is hard to discuss the truth with all the naysayers around.
                  What do you think of his rules?

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The rules are just fine with one exception.  Define sticking to the topic.
                    If strickly followed, then there is no debate just yes and no answers to the question Is there a Hell, and am I going there.   NO    and   NO.
                      It might seem as though I am getting off topic if I were to go into WHY  I believe this way.

    2. Silverspeeder profile image61
      Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Is there a hell?
      Research has shown that the common understanding of hell is untenable, the word and original meaning comes from the Greek Hades and is no more than an discription of the common grave.
      Death is the punishment, resurrection is the reward.
      The early roman church sort to control it's followers it therefor had to invent the control measure of a punishment for sins after death thus the common idea of hell controlled by satan for the purpose of eternal punishment.

      I shall be going to Hades but I shall leave it toy god to decide if I am deserved of a resurrection.

    3. SomewayOuttaHere profile image61
      SomewayOuttaHereposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      what?....you lost me here "But I am a saved Christian and my heart breaks to see people going to hell."...ha ha ha....you've seen this happening?....take a pic next time.....

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I was just in hell. Could't take a picture, but I can sure tell you about it.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image89
          Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Had the batteries in your camera run out?

          Anything you can tell us about hell would be the product of your mind or the collections of other manade hell imagery.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yep, you are right. I am suffering from a concussion.  It is really a drag. (Wear helmets whenever needed to avoid living a hell from a concussion. I fell while jogging with my dogs.) Any brain injury must be really hellish!  I feel so sorry for the people in Boston who had to have surgery to remove pieces from brain tissue. ugh!  Or any one suffering with brain cancer! ugh! Thank God for your health, your brain, and your mind.

            Another totally unrelated thought: We came into the body as spirit and we leave the body as spirit. Doesn't that make us essentially spirit operating a body for a short while on earth?
            Are we not what God essentially is? Spirit?
            But we have a lot of work to do to be like Jesus.
            He loved God.
            God loves us.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You forgot the part where Jesus loved us. Your example leaves the diagram open . Like two sides to a triangle, or an unfinished circle. To forget the part where you love your fellow man as he did ensures the love isn't in constant motion. It doesn't run a circuit, but is like a frayed wire; constantly losing electricity. It will either start a fire, or short circuit the appliance it is used to provide energy to. This 'I love God' philosophy doesn't mimic Jesus' thought processes. It's only half the justification for his actions. Ignoring the second half negates 50%.

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                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Well said

              2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You act like I am a failure for omitting the triangle analogy!   
                gosh!
                Not having a good day?

    4. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Have you ever actually SEEN anyone go to hell?

      I'm going to assume that you haven't actually seen anyone go to Hell, that you've never watched a human being get cast into a Lake of Fire to be tortured for all eternity. Now, has anyone actually seen Heaven? Has anyone actually seen ANY kind of afterlife?

      Near death experiences don't count, because those who experience them are not seeing anything with their physical eyes. Neither do dreams, visions or any other spiritual phenomenon because they are either not received through the physical eyes or are hallucinations over top of the mundane world that cannot be shown to actually exist.

      Obviously sight is not the only of the five senses and obviously the human senses have their flaws. There are things that we know exist which we cannot, with our naked senses, actually detect. This is where the tools and instruments of science can step in, to tell us, for example, exactly what the air we feel moving around us is composed of, etc.

      No one has ever produced a shred of evidence for the afterlife. No one has ever detected any non-physical (ie Spiritual) substance, essence, particle, or material.

      The existence of Hell, or the Underworld, is, however, attested to in dozens of disparate mythologies and the descriptions of the realm of the dead differ greatly. The word Hell itself stems not from Christian tradition but from NORSE MYTHOLOGY.

      So what we have is a belief that stems from superstition, not from any demonstrable reality. Belief in Hell is often reinforced by fear or veiled threat in the same manner that fear in the boogeyman might be and is often implanted in the minds of children at a young age to serve much the same purpose, to encourage the obedience of the child.

      Mythology, superstition and psychological manipulation are all associated with the idea of Hell. These are typically not the sorts of sources that are reliable in their depictions of reality. The fact that we can trace the evolution of the idea of an afterlife back so far, and watch it change drastically and differ greatly across cultures, religions and regions should tell us that while it has proved a resilient concept it has not been supported by evidence.

      Throughout the centuries we've seen our understanding of subjects grow more refined, theories were many and now they are few, whittled down by the scientific method to give us the most reliable answers, the best and most updated information. Our understanding has grown into new areas, new subjects being discovered, and we're constantly updating as new evidence is found. Science is coalescing toward a better understanding. Beliefs about Hell, and religious doctrines in general, however, don't seem to be getting any closer to representing reality more accurately and indeed don't seem at all concerned with that goal in the slightest. We have those who believe Hell is annihilation, we have those that don't believe in it at all but think Gehenna was just a burning trash heap, we have those who believe it is eternal and those who believe it is rehabilitation and those that believe in purgatory and so and so on and so on. The argument can go on forever because there are no facts associated with Hell, it is a pure fantasy.

      I submit that Hell does NOT exist.

      1. JMcFarland profile image93
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I agree - which is quite simply why I don't believe in it, and therefore do not have any fear of it - any more than I would fear the hell of Islam or any other religious doctrine.

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          For me, Since I do not control hell nor who would go there (nor do I want that headache), I do not have the right to try to place anyone there so why even speak on it? Especially since I have no specific proof of the existence of Hell. I have faith that the bible says that God would judge the heart and the actions of man when the decision is made.

      2. 0
        Lybrahposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        While we're on the topic of hell, I've written some new hubs.  Check them out, people!

      3. 0
        Lybrahposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No one has ever produced a shred of evidence for the afterlife. No one has ever detected any non-physical (ie Spiritual) substance, essence, particle, or material.

        Not true.  There are many people who have died and come back to life.  Hence all those "Heaven is So Real" and "90 Minutes in Heaven" books.

        1. JMcFarland profile image93
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          There are books on a lot of topics.  Writing something down does not automatically make it true.  Nde's have been proven to be anything but experiencing the afterlife.

        2. jonnycomelately profile image87
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Have you been watching too many Dr. Who? movies?

    5. 60
      Herald of the dayposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      what truth do you want people to see do u want 2 see Sir.

  2. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Kathrin ... You are correct! .. it is hard to have a quality conversation with as you say all the naysayers.  I think that some peoples opinions can and have be affected a "little"  and very slowly, then we regress.
        actually if my conclusions are correct, ..  it matters little, if at all, if I were to change anyones/everyones opinions or not.

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      BTW What IS the topic of this "open debate?"   *Debate* means opposing viewpoints.   Also, I don't mind one-liners and deviating from the topic is sometimes like comic relief.  Also "that does not make sense"  allows for others to chime in. Sometimes fewer words are vision-relief. Is the topic  about going to hell?   what is hell?  hell is a state of agony... self imposed.
      Jesus teaches us how be proactive and avoid self-induced hell.
      The Way I See It

  3. habee profile image90
    habeeposted 3 years ago

    I think "Hell" is probably eternal death, with no hope of eternal life. And nope - I ain't a-goin'!

  4. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Is that not wishful thinking?



    What is the basis of such an assumption?

  5. SoundNFury profile image84
    SoundNFuryposted 3 years ago

    I think of Hell as a state of mind.  We can wrap ourselves up into our own little hells with our thoughts, feelings, guilt, etc.  If God exists, I just don't see him creating a place to send people as punishment for believing in him - that much narcissism and ego is definitely a HUMAN creation.

  6. SoundNFury profile image84
    SoundNFuryposted 3 years ago

    for NOT believing in him, that is....

  7. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    By sticking to the topic I meant that we do not completely go of track and discuss something else. As long as it is related the topic its fine. By "stick" I did not mean "agree".

  8. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    I didn't see these last post  sorry for not replying sooned
    Jerami wrote:
    I don't think that there is a hell  ...  unless this is it
    = - = -
    augustine72
    Is that not wishful thinking?
    = - = -
    me,    maybe so

    I believe in universal salvation (for lack of a better description).
    I think that the majority of the punishment that we recieve for our sins are paid during this life.
    = - = - =
    augustine72
    What is the basis of such an assumption?
    = - = -
    There isn't a single reason unless it is from observing my own mistakes which many would consider as sins, and recognizing how those things later manifested themselves as hardships in this life.
    7 days ago Jerami wrote:
    The rules are just fine with one exception.  Define sticking to the topic.
    If strickly followed, then there is no debate just yes and no answers to the question Is there a Hell, and am I going there.   NO    and   NO.
      It might seem as though I am getting off topic if I were to go into WHY  I believe this way.
    = - = - = -   
    augustine72
    By sticking to the topic I meant that we do not completely go of track and discuss something else. As long as it is related the topic its fine. By "stick" I did not mean "agree".
    =========
    me     I knew that was just answering Kathryn L Hill's post attempting to add a little humor

  9. r-o-y profile image82
    r-o-yposted 3 years ago

    I believe there’s a hell, I believe this because I believe and know there are beings called spirits, who do not have physical bodies. These beings existed before we did, it is these fallen beings who have mankind hating the Son of God, and even the mention of His name. These spirit beings have free-will just as most of the creator’s intelligent creatures. These spirit beings break the laws of the universe just as man do, when these spirit beings break the universal laws; they are jailed just as the physical being must be jailed to protect the innocent.
    These spirit beings not being physical are not subject to the physical laws of this physical world, therefore physical jails will not hold them, they would simply walk through the walls. To house these spirit criminals, there must be a spiritual sell made up of the material of the spiritual realm that can contain them. Hell is just another name for jail, or prison. What kind of universe would this be if one class of intelligent being were imprisoned for their bad behavior, and  another class were allowed to go simply go free  for committing the same crime, certainly not a just one.
    Hell is simply a holding sell for criminal spirits until judgment, at which time all that refuse life will be taken out of existence, as if they never were. No burning through all time, and torture without end. What better way to run a universe?

    1. Disappearinghead profile image89
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Roy, can you prove any of this from the Old Testament?

  10. 0
    Sooner28posted 3 years ago

    When eternal existence is at stake, refusing debate is the height of immorality.

    And...

    The one who refuses debate is the one who cannot debate.

  11. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Laugh all you want now. Because when you find yourself in there you won't find it funny anymore.

    1. JMcFarland profile image93
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      this is a borderline threat.

      I don't know if you've gotten the memo - but your opinion of who is and is not being sent to hell is not up to you.  It's up to your god.  Your opinions on the matter are irrelevant - unless you somehow think that your god needs help passing judgment.

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        Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Conservative christians threaten unbelievers like me with hell all the time.  It's nothing new.  It just shows the weakness of their position.

        1. JMcFarland profile image93
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          In my experience, if you are left with nothing but threats, its an indication that you are losing, and your last option is an appeal to emotion and fear

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            For some, It's the lead off option

  12. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Why should Roy use only the OT?

    1. Disappearinghead profile image89
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Simple because at the time of Jesus and the apostles there s no NT, and therefore Roy's spiel about demons, fallen angels, and prisons would have been considered totally unbiblical. Roy's theories weren't invented till much later. Now either these things don't exist or God forgot o mention them for 4000 years.

      As a side note, only the OT was ever considered scripture. The NT never says of itself that it is. Paul as a Pharisee, I'm doubtful he would consider his letters as scripture, that would be blasphemy or self delusional, anymore than a pastor today would call his sermons scripture. The gospels are a collection or personal memories and we cannot say that they are the sum verbatim words of Jesus without cultural influences and beliefs of the writers influencing them. It was the church much later on who voted by committee what was accepted into the canon, and then the church over the centuries assumed it was scripture.

      1. r-o-y profile image82
        r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What I’m hearing here is that the Christian view of things does not matter, but everyone else’s view matters, is that any way to start a discussion? Again, you are trying to have a debate on a subject that you have no knowledge of, you prove this by stating that hell is not mentioned in the Old Testament.  Now I’m going to give you time to do something you should have done in the beginning, go back and read the Old Testament again and tell me that hell is now mentioned.

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          King David said, if i make my bed in hell, even there i could not hide from thy Holy Spirit. these words are spoken by David, her was not a New Testement King, he's an Old Testement King!

          1. r-o-y profile image82
            r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Men seem to think its alright for physical beings to be punished fort the wrongs done agaist mankind, send them to jail, bu when it comes to spirit being, just let them committ whatever crimes they will and just go free. You are a spirit being having an physical experience, you are a spirit and if you continue to kick against the prick, you are going to go the prison for breaking God's law. Or do you think that man is more just than his creator?
            Hell is just another name for prison, law breakers go to prison both phycical and spirits!

            1. r-o-y profile image82
              r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Now you prove your point from your book of prophecy.

            2. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Who said we were spirits having a physical experience? Your pastor perhaps, but not the bible. In fact it says God breathed his breathe of life into Adam to make him a living soul. No mention of any spirit here.

          2. JMcFarland profile image93
            JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The word "hell" occurs 31 times in the Old Testament. All 31 of those times, the word translated "hell" is the Hebrew word "sheol." While the English word "hell" has connotations as a place of punishment for the condemned, sheol does not have such connotations. Sheol simply refers to the abode of the dead in general, not particularly the place of the punishment for the wicked. In fact, sheol was divided into two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the wicked dead. And, more specifically, the Jewish concept of sheol was the "underworld," or in other words, a place within the earth, underneath the surface world.

          3. Disappearinghead profile image89
            Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Please read a literal bible not the flawed King James.

            1. r-o-y profile image82
              r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              To Disappearinghead, first of all, I have no pastor but Jesus Christ! Again, you are proven wrong by your very own words. Your words:

              “In fact it says God breathed his breathe of life into Adam to make him a living soul. No mention of any spirit here.”

              If you ask God to illuminate His word as you read it, and not go looking for information to destroy that word you would not make statements that destroy your own argument! You said there is no mention of spirit here. You implied that God actually bread the breath from his being into the man, and the man became a living soul. The bible clearly states that God is a Spirit, and that Spirit is the most Holiest Spirit there is, meaning the Holy Spirit is God.

              Now, if God is Spirit, and He breaded His breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul, then the life of Adam was the spirit of God, by your account!!!

              By your account, Adam became a living soul, now that living soul you said God bread His spirit into “Breath] ,in the bible is often and for sure in this account, is referring to spirit. Now, that is the spiritual part of man. Now that spirit must take on flesh to function in a physical world of matter, if he was only spirit how he would be able open a physical door without physical hands, this is elementary!

              You are a spirit being in your own words having a physical experience!!!

  13. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Joh_3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  14. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    In fact, does it not show the weakness of your position to call hell a mere threat?

    1. JMcFarland profile image93
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      no.  Because you're attempting to control people through fear of an afterlife that you have no proof exists.  You simply HOPE that there is a hell to punish all of the people that disagree with you eternally, just like you HOPE there is a heaven where you can reap in the rewards for your judgments.

      Keep in mind, however, that jesus was incredibly clear - by the same measure  you judge others, you will be judged yourself.  Are you prepared for all of that judgment to come crashing down on you?  You may not get the result that you're counting on.

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, It more shows the weakness of the stand of evangelical Christians because the bible even states that ultimately if you cannot get someone to come into belief that you should shake the dust from your feet and simply move on (I'm paraphrasing scripture here). Jumping over into the "You're going to Hell" attack is basically the Christian equivalent of saying "up yours" for anyone else that has lost ground in any debate. It's a measure of trying to save face and still have the last word. Unfortunately, using "you're going to hell" as the last word achieves nothing more than to further push people away from God and strengthens their stance. It's past time for things to change in the church. We need to move away from telling people to do good to avoid hell and to start telling people to do good because it IS good. If people lived their lives doing good because it IS good, then they would have nothing to fear from Hell because God judges the heart and works of the person. The final word is God's and for you (or any christian for that matter) to fall back to the hell threat would be for you to place yourself in a position of passing judgment at which point you are elevating yourself to God's level, which ultimately when it's your turn to face him will be taken into account as well.

      1. JMcFarland profile image93
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        +1

      2. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Beautifully said!  Three cheers, my friend.

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you my friend

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        Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I've been a Christian for over 40 years, and I don't know of any Bible-believing Christian who "threatens" anyone with hell.     I know a lot of them who warn people about hell, yes;  but threaten, no.   Maybe there are some who perhaps take some joy in the thought of certain people going to hell,  but that's definitely not the norm at all in the Christian circles that I've ever been in, nor in most of the media preaching that I've watched.

        So I really don't know where you and sinners get the idea that Christians are "threatening" people with hell. And it's really an attack on US when you broadly proclaim that evangelicals are doing so.

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What some people consider warning, others view as a threat. Sorry, you may disagree because you view it as a warning, but I've seen so-called evangelicals outright tell people "You're going to hell" I'm not making this up.. But then again, what about the rest of my statement? the mere fact that you have to resort to warning someone about Hell basically shows that nothing else you are presenting is working and thus you now have to resort to getting people to believe by using fear. If we can instill moral and ethical behavior in people because it is ethical and it is good to do then nobody should have to fear Hell. It is the dogmatic, fire and brimstone teaching of Hell that is pushing people away because ultimately, it contradicts a lot of different principles contained in the Bible. We as Christians should continue to show God's love to all people without having to lean on telling them of his wrath. If we can continue to do this then we can draw more people in. But even if we can't draw them in initially, we can at least remove the dogmatic stigma that surrounds Christians and Christianity. 

          So it is not an attack on evangelicals.. It is an experiential observation that is based on the fact that I also used to "warn" people about Hell. Once I got deeper into the grace of God and the principles of love teaching, I was able to draw more people in.. But hey, you do what you think is best in how you reach "sinners" But please remember that when you use the term sinner, this is inclusive of everyone wink

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            Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Really?
            There is no stigma to preaching hellfire and brimstone, and no, it doesn't contradict the Bible at all.
            And you're leaving out one basic concept.    No matter how "good" someone is, they'll go to hell if they don't receive Christ as Savior.    It's not about how good we can be, because mankind is a group of fallen creatures since the Garden.   Really we can't be good enough to deserve Heaven; only God is good.    You could find the most awesomely caring, sweet, gentle, person on earth and assume they're good enough to go to Heaven, but the Bible says that doesn't seal their salvation.   They must be born again by accepting Jesus as their Savior.

            I'm sorry that you no longer feel the need to warn people about hell.   Because you've veered from the message.   Apparently you've chosen to start tickling ears instead of exhorting people to salvation.  The earliest preacher (John the Baptist) preached REPENT.   So did Jesus.   So you might want to reconsider your message if you really want people to go to Heaven.


            Edit----maybe there IS a "stigma" to preaching hellfire and brimstone, but if there is, it's one that's been placed upon us by unbelievers and luke-warm Christians who do err;  it's one that every witness for the Lord's salvation will be faced with, a burden we each must carry if placed upon us, in order to be faithful to Jesus and His word the Bible.
            Throwing away that burden may get you a big crowd of followers like Joel Osteen has,  or give you a false sense of peace at night, but are those things worth anyone's eternal soul?  Even your own soul?

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              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You have made quite a few presumptions and assumptions about me. And I love the tone of superiority that you have now taken with me without knowing the full story.. Because of this, I am choosing to agree to disagree with you and bow out of further conversation with you because it appears that you are convinced (by your words that I am "tickling ears") that I am not out here getting people saved. So you continue to be blessed in your foundation that you must "warn" people of hell and thus stick to dogma.. Be blessed and have a good day


              And based on Matthew 7:1-8 Is failing to follow this scripture worth your soul? wink

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                Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                As you wish.


                Edit---uh I thought you were done debating, but you just had to throw in another accusation.   Once again, one that is wrongly applied.

                Whatever.  We're at a standstill it seems.

                So bye bye.

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
                  SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The turn or burn false teachings do not create believers, the do the exact opposite.

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                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Actually, I gotta disagree a little bit.. Turn or burn does  create believers when indoctrinated from birth, which turns them into some of the adults that are well represented (so to speak) in society as well as HP.. It does not work on those who are adult and do not believe..

                    Then again, Belief and relationship born out of fear isn't a real relationship, is it?

            2. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Brenda did you know that brimstone is symbolic of healing and cleansing, not wrath and punishment. Brimstone aka sulphur was used by ancient civilisations to preserve wine, fumigate houses, cleanse from disease, and was used in religious rituals to denote cleansing of the soul. There's a reason why brimstone was added.....think about it.

              1. 0
                Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It may have been used for other purposes,  but that doesn't make it a good thing in hell.
                Matter of fact, fire itself can be used to cleanse or purify something,  but that doesn't mean it's a cleanser as in the fires of hell.   Unless ya take it as the Bible means it.......basically it will cleanse the world of the evildoers.........not cleanse the evildoers..........sorry.    God is a God of Love but also of wrath and Judgement.     Your comparison is like turning a blind eye to what God has said........


                "The Lord is in His holy temple, the Lord's throne is in Heaven;  His eyes behold, His eyelids try the children of men.
                The Lord trieth the righteous;  but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth.
                Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest:  this shall be the portion of their cup".
                For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness;  His countenance doth behold the upright".
                (Psalm 11: 4, 5, 6, & 7)

                1. Josak profile image61
                  Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Ah yes hell tongue

                  Christianity like most ideologies who seek to convert employs the carrot and the stick, Christianity like most faiths perfectly uses hell and heaven, it's a very old brainwashing trick, but it's becoming rather worn and useless.

                  The threats of it become ever more desperate and shrill as Christianity fades.

                  1. 0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I was gonna say I beg to differ, but (LOL) I don't beg;  I just differ, very fervently too!

                    While many "Christian" churches and groups may be fading or veering away from the path,  Christianity isn't fading the way you wish it to be.    It (the remnant that comprises true Christianity) is being tried like gold in the fire of God's eye,  and will persevere with His help.   To the end of time as we know it.   It isn't just numbers that makes something powerful;  it's who acknowledges the One who does have all the power.

          2. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Uhh OHHH.. You must have missed this post where I mentioned showing the love of God..

            1. JMcFarland profile image93
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              don't you love being right?  I know I do :-)

              1. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                JM, I'm trying here

            2. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Once again, you misunderstand your own words.
              You mentioned showing God's love to others, yes.
              But you didn't mention loving God.
              If people don't make the choice to love Him, they cannot receive salvation.
              You seem to be afraid to mention hell because you think they'll be turned off by a God who prepared the place for the Devil and his angels, but who says unbelieving and sinful people will have their part in that fire too.    Well, if you're only gonna give people half the message, half the info about who God is, then you're drawing them in falsely.   Not to say that perhaps some of them won't come to a realization by themselves, in study, etc., about who He is, and therefore actually become true followers.   But you will have erred by not giving them the full picture to start with.   

              Let me ask you something-------
              What is the "job" or purpose of the Holy Spirit?   What does the Bible say is His purpose?

              1. JMcFarland profile image93
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Let me put this a lot more simply.

                I don't know if you're a parent or not, but we're going to go with this analogy.

                You can demand your child's obedience, but you cannot demand their love.  If you tell your child that they must love you or you will torture them and then your child obediently says "i love you mom" is that real love?  Or is that love based on fear of the consequences.   Genuine love cannot be achieved out of fear of punishment or hope of reward.  Real love can only be achieved genuinely through affection, not by force.  to think otherwise denies basic human understanding.

                Secondly, how can someone misunderstand THEIR OWN words.  they said them.  Maybe you misinterpreted them, but that's your problem - not his.  I'm pretty sure that Deepes knows exactly what he said - and exactly what he meant by what he said.

                1. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you JM

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Genuine love is elicited by giving love.
                  Jesus Loved us while we were yet sinners, when we didn't love Him at all.
                  He gave up His life for us!
                  We are drawn by that;  He's easy to Love!   At least, He's easy to Love for those people who recognize that He is Love and recognize what they're being saved from.
                  But you're still dismissing the REASON that Jesus gave up His life.  There is sin in the world; sin in the human heart.  There is punishment for sin.   That punishment is hell.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image93
                    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Santa's easy to love to.  He brings presents, grants wishes and fills the mind of children world-wide.  What's your point?

              2. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                On the contrary, Showing God's love leads people to return that love back to God, which in turn leads them into receiving salvation. You return the love that you receive and feel. If what you are feeling is fear, then there comes that disconnect. Once again, I am speaking from experience. I grew up where Hell was preached as part of God's love. As a result, I grew up believing God and doing things out of fear of Hell instead out of love of God as well as moral and ethical behavior because it IS ethical and shows a love and reverence of God. Sorry, That wasn't an ideal relationship born out of love. it was forced obedience out of fear.

              3. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                How is that different from telling people they must believe and become saved or Go to Hell? That does not teach anything about building relationship with God nor being secure in his word. That is still half of the message from the other side of the spectrum. But basically, Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for the sins of all mankind. So if someone is going to Hell for their sins, then what was the point of Christ going on the cross? That seems contradictory to say "Jesus died for your sins, but if you sin you're still going to the hell that Christ died to saved you from"


                But I digress. We each have our own beliefs and there is no point in debating with each other when we both believe in God and have built our own relationship that works for us. Your relationship with Him is your relationship and my relationship is my relationship. I am secure in my belief and relationship and sure of where I will end up at the end.

      4. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        There ya go. 
        No, you didn't say you try to get people to focus on the love of God.  You talked about teaching people to "do good", and insulted Evangelicals, and basically said that people can get to Heaven by being loving toward each other, etc.
        They can't.   According to the word of God, they cannot.
        They must recognize God as the sovreign God that He is;  they must recognize Jesus as the God and Savior that He is;    they must recognize that they're sinners in need of a Savior;   they must realize that Jesus's message and His sacrifice were done so that people could be saved from....what?........hell.

        You left out the seriousness of the choice that people must make in your effort to make people feel safe and secure just by doing good deeds.    You seemingly want to soften or downplay God's power and perfection by assuming there's no hell.   And tell people they can get to heaven by just "being good".   If that's not ear-ticklin', I dunno what is.

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You're assuming that's what I'm doing (incorrectly I might add) based on a few words.  You have already judged me to be a certain way. Once again you have deemed your methods of trying to bring people to God to be better than mine, which is funny because once people get to God and find the information out for themselves the same goal is achieved, so what's the problem? souls are still being reached and saved... But again, by all means continue to hold judgment over my poor methods of winning souls to God (which are working, by the way)

  15. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    can a person accept Jesus as their saviour when they have no faith that God exists?

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

      (Hebrews 11: 6)

      1. JMcFarland profile image93
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

        3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.  Matthew 7:1-5

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This is my deligma..   I forget where though it is written that God gives faith to those that he chooses. And doesn't give faith to those which he chooses.    It would seen that he is then condeming them to hell by not giving them faith?  For without faith, how can they accept Jesus?

        1. JMcFarland profile image93
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Romans 9 18   So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
          19   You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
          20   On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
          21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same  lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
          22   What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His  power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for  destruction?
          23   And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            These verses are saying much the same thing.  The one I was thinking of was way back in the OT.

            Point being, would God withold faith from an individual and then condem them to hell for it"
            That just don't fit into the Christian concept that we have power to save ourselves through our choice to accept Jesus when we can't, not having faith in God, cause he didn't give it to us.

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not sure right now what Old Testament verses you mean either.....sorry;  but if I find them I'll post 'em.
              The ones JMcFarland posted are often debated;  no one seems to fully understand them.   I can give you my interpretation.
              They're about free will.
              Remember that God "chose" the Israelites as His people.  They would be the "vessels of mercy" prepared beforehand.   Everyone else would be the "vessels of wrath" prepared beforehand;  namely, Gentiles, anyone who wasn't a Jew and therefore "chosen".
              The Jews collectively withdrew from God many times.  He condemned their actions.  But He kept offering them forgiveness time after time if they would return to Him.  Finally, what did He do?   He provoked them to jealousy by offering salvation to the Gentiles!    Should we believe that God wasn't gonna love everyone, only the Jews?   Well, no, because the whole thing fit into His plan all along;  He simply knew human behavior and the capacity of people to choose right or wrong; after all, He created Mankind, so He knows everything about us!    So it became that anyone who chose to believe in Him and accept Christ as Savior, could be saved.


              Remember the Canaanite woman who was "vexed with a devil"?  Jesus at first told her He wasn't sent to her, that He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel!!    But she WANTED His touch; she had Faith that He was capable of curing her;  she persevered.

              So you see it's about whether or not we Love the Lord and believe in Him; it's about whether we WANT salvation or not.    He CAN of course choose to send us to hell and yet save others, but notice that the verses say "What if.........."
              What if God did do that?   Well, even if He did, it would be His right to do so, since He is the potter and we are simply the clay if He so chooses to look at it that way.   But obviously He does NOT, because the Bible says anybody ("whosoever believeth") can be saved.

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                thankyou Brenda but I do understand all of that. but the point remains that God said, according to scripture, that he gives faith to those that he chooses to give faith to. It would seem that anyone that doesn't accept Christ as their saviour, is because God chose to NOT give them the faith required to believe in him and accept Christ as their saviour.  So it seems that it is not their fault that they do not or can not accept Christ as their saviour.  ???
                    Just the way it seems to me.

              2. JMcFarland profile image93
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                what I think Jerami is getting at, however, is that if god hardens the hearts of people (like, but not exclusively) atheists like he hardened the heart of pharaoh, then how can it be morally justified that we're tortured forever because of something HE did?  That's not a moral belief system.  You run into the euthyphro dilemma.  Is something moral because it is commanded by god - or is it commanded by god because it is moral?  Just because you claim that god can do whatever he wants and that necessarily makes it right does not fly.  A bully can do whatever he wants, because he's more powerful than the people he is bullying, but it doesn't make the bully right.  Might does not make right.

                1. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry you feel that way.
                  What I know is that God is God.
                  Whatever He did or does or decides to do is His right.  And since He knew and knows the heart of everyone, past, present, and future, I believe He hardened the hearts of those who He know would end up rejecting Him anyway.
                  But if you'd focus on all the Scripture that says how much He Loves you and everyone else (and there is a preponderance of those, not the least of which is the story of Jesus's sacrifice,  maybe you'd find it in your heart to Love Him.   That is where your free will comes into play;  that is where you have the choice.

                  1. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I mentioned drawing people in by choosing to focus on the love that's mentioned in the bible and you accused me of tickling peoples' ears. I reach people by telling them how to focus on God's love and you told me to rethink my teaching because I don't warn of hell..

                    Interesting

                  2. JMcFarland profile image93
                    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    the concept of free will is completely incompatible with the notion of predetermination.  If god is omnipotent and omnipresent and knows the past, present and future simultaneously, then there is no true choice.  That's what makes intercessory prayer so useless.  Why pray for something when the course is already set in place?  If god knows everything, then no one truly makes a choice for him at all.  He's already decided - and his solution is to send people to hell and torture them forever for following his plan for them all along.  This is not a moral system.  It's mob-boss mentality. 

                    If a guy walks into your shop and says "pay me 100 bucks per week, and I'll protect you from all of the other mob bosses out there - but if you don't pay me, I'll shoot you in the head" and you decide NOT to pay him - it is NOT your fault that you got shot in the head.  It's the fault of the person who did the shooting.  Blaming the victim is repulsive.  You did not commit suicide by mob boss.  You were murdered.  If that's immoral, how much more immoral is it to think that an all powerful deity predetermined that you would not be given faith, so he tortures you in fire forever for doing EXACTLY what he planned for you to do?

                2. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks JMcFarland   that is exactly what I was saying.

        2. JMcFarland profile image93
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If you want to know why I find the bible morally abhorrent (at least in part) you need look no further than the story of the Exodus out of Egypt.

          Moses goes to Pharaoh and tells him to let his people go.  Pharaoh initially says no, so god sends a plague.  After that, Pharaoh AGREES to let the Israelis go.  Then GOD HARDENS PHARAOH'S HEART not once, not twice but multiple times - just so he can KEEP PUNISHING HIM for not doing the very thing that he wanted to do anyway.  Ultimately, god hardens pharaoh's heart enough to create the need for the Passover.  Have you ever examined the passover story in depth?  It's repulsive - but Christians and Jews alike treat it like a celebration.  God orders the slaughter of lambs, and their blood gets smeared on the doors of the Jew's homes so the angel of death can identify them.  Wouldn't god know his own people without a bloody doorway?  He is supposed to know everything, after all.  Additionally, god then kills the firstborn of everyone else, from the Pharaoh's son to the prisoner in the dungeons son - apart from Pharaoh (who's heart god hardened in the first place) what did the prisoner in the dungeon do to deserve his firstborn child to be slaughtered?  this is not moral or ethical behavior.  It's repulsive.  If it happened in this day and age, there would be an outcry and uprising of epic proportions - but because it's attributed to "god" it's suddenly good?

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The only thing that could make sense to me about any of that is if we were spiritual beings existing in a spirit world who then chooses to "Fall" to earth to enjoy all of these physical pleasures. It after these physical bodies die we would then return to where we came from.  In this light, the death of this physical body  just isn't that dastardly of a deed.     Kinda like being called back into the school room during recess with 30 minutes remaining that I otherwise would have kept playing in the school yard with that little girl with curly blond hair.

  16. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago

    What is the "job" or purpose of the Holy Spirit?

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Deepes Mind,
      will you kindly answer that question, please?
      What does the Bible say the Holy Ghost will do?
      There are several things, all connected, all with one ultimate purpose.
      Name them all.
      Don't leave any out.

  17. Woman Of Courage profile image59
    Woman Of Courageposted 3 years ago

    Hello everyone. It's been a while. Great discussion! Being good is not good enough. Our works does not save us nor get us into heaven. Yes telling someone they are going to hell is considered a threat. The bible teaches about hell, so people need to know it's real. I have not read any postings of Brenda threatening people. Let's see how many twist my words. I'm full of the love of Christ and I love you all.

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Woman, where've you been?
      Good to see ya.  smile

      Yep, we were having a rather involved discussion about hell and salvation etc.
      But I think everyone's gotten tired now and gave up for the night!  ha.

  18. Woman Of Courage profile image59
    Woman Of Courageposted 3 years ago

    Hey Brenda. I been busy but I have not forgot hubpages forum. smile I see. Guess they will be back at it again tomorrow. How have you been?

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not in such good shape healthwise, but I'm okay.   Could be better.   But I'm alive and kickin'!  smile

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
        Woman Of Courageposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        @Brenda, I'm glad you are doing okay. May God give you strength to endure. Hang in there.

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Brenda, I'm sorry to hear you're struggling health-wise.  That's a cross my husband and I bear as well.  I'll keep you in my prayers and hope that God will strengthen you along the way.  big_smile

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you.  smile
            I'll keep you and husband in prayer as well!

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Much appreciated.  We count on every prayer offered.  big_smile

  19. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    True.

  20. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    As far as I have seen, all who oppose us use a few tactics. They try to accuse us with these and completely pain us black.
    "You are threatening us"
    "You do that because you have nothing else to stand on"
    "You have a holier than thou' attitude"
    "You judge us"

    They will hold on this always.

  21. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    This is what all you guys do. First you insist that we are saying some nonsense and then you question. Of course the question you asked is valid, but you just don't understand that you are making a dumb mistake. You make that error and foolishly continue to operate under that error.

    The Error
    It is not telling the people "they must believe and become saved or Go to Hell". Rather we are all going to hell. Jesus is the escape route. Going to hell is the default position. That is what we are telling you. Why do you insist that we are saying "believe in God or be punished"? 

    There is a difference between the two. If one does not recognize the difference they will continue to operate in error.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Augustine72, with great respect to you for wanting "open" debate and discussion, I have only just now looked at your profile.

      You joined Hubpages 4 years ago.  Nothing about you except that you are in India.
      You want to MAKE (your word!) People know the truth.
      You wish to limit what people respond with.
      You  are absolutely stuck in your mold as a christian.
      The god that you want to tell us about is - tiny; demanding (and loving at the same time, which is contradictary)wink judgmental; invisible; without form; very particular as to whom "He" will admit into "His" presence.
      The representative of that god apparently was able to defy the physical laws of cause and effect.  He magically died in his body; then flew into the sky and visited an old man somewhere up there;  came down again to this planet; again, like the best conjurer the world has ever known, re-entered that battered and exhausted body. And came alive again !!!!!

      Do you, Augustine72, feel fit to enter that "Heaven?"

      What caliber of thinking person would you expect to meet up there?

    2. JMcFarland profile image93
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      and what kind of god would set up such a twisted game that all people lose by default and allow his supposed enemy to win?  From the time you are born, it is a mad scramble to say the right prayers and learn about the right deity and become sufficiently saved before they die at any moment, and if they follow the wrong god or say the wrong prayers or follow that god incorrectly, they're doomed to an eternity of torment.  Sure sounds like an intelligent plan to me (that's sarcasm).  If it's true, then your god is a sadistic, twisted egomaniac that is not deserving of praise, worship or sacrifice at all.  he's just as bloodthirsty as the god of the aztecs.  How repulsive.

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        And THIS is why I stay away from the Hell conversations with people.At the end of the day, no matter how you choose to look at it, "Believe OR ELSE" is still a threat to some people. You can call it whatever you choose, but for some it is what it is. Whether implied or direct, a threat is still a threat, no matter how you choose to see it.. Thank you for chiming in JM

    3. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Hi augustine72.   Your thread has elicited a lot of discussion;  good deal.
      But I think you're right that the nay-sayers are gonna keep up the same mindset and words and tactics.

      I think you explained it well with your paragraph about "The Error".  But they won't understand that either.   
      In a way, it IS about telling the people they must believe and become saved or go to hell!.    We do have to believe in God or else be punished.    But with (most) Christians, it's not an insulting and gleeful thing to say;  we say it because it's simply a fact and we want people to avoid the fires of hell; we say it as a warning, with compassion, hoping they'll see their fate can be changed by belief in Him.    Unbelievers want to say that we "threaten" in a manner that's prideful or that we're glad to see them headed for hell.   
      If we "shake the dust off our feet",  I personally have always done so with the prayer and hope that some other Christian will cross their paths whom they will listen to;   it doesn't have to be me;  I just hope they allow someone to lead them to Christ!

      Well, as to the debate, when the other tactics don't work, they distract or ignore.   
      Unless I'm mistaken,  Deepes Mind is ignoring my question about the work of the Holy Ghost.    Reckon it could be because answering it would bring up a couple of words/reasons he doesn't want to admit to..............!

      And now he's calling the crucifixion an event of "discomfort" for Jesus!
      Wow!!!

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        On the contrary, Brenda, I am not ignoring your question at all.. I have chosen not to respond to your question because I can easily copy and paste the scriptures dealing with the holy spirit and I can admit to everything that is written the Bible. But based on our conversation I have drawn two conclusions about you and me:

        1) We have differing views of how we see the bible in how it directly applies to our life in general

        2) You have already Decided that your interpretation and application is better than mine and judged me to be "lukewarm" (No I didn't miss your earlier implication of me though I didn't address it). You have also made several assumptions about me without truly having an understanding of me, my communication style, and my beliefs.

        Now, there is no problem with the first conclusion because you and I are two different people and as such will see things differently. That's the beauty in God's creation, how unique we all are.. The problem is in the second conclusion because my views and beliefs regarding the Bible and how it applies to my walk with God are strictly personal. They apply to me and me alone. I do not wish to convert anyone over into my way of thinking nor my level of belief. I only seek to provide my own testimony regarding God's impact in my life as well as to continue to show God's love in my words and actions. I believe that a relationship based out of fear cannot be a true loving relationship because once the fear is gone then you are left with nothing else. It is because of this second conclusion that I have decided and am deciding to not engage you any further in debate after I reply to your other messages to me. You have your views and I have mine and I am agreeing to disagree with the understanding that your beliefs are the ones that apply best for you in your life as mine apply best for me and mine. My beliefs are not any better than your nor are yours better than mine. it boils down to what works for your life.




        The crucifixion was more than a discomfort for Christ, this I am more than aware of. I was merely repeating the words that JM was using and engaging her in conversation with those same words. It does not bother me that she downplayed the crucifixion because those are HER feelings. I disagree with her assessment of it and was having a reasonable discussion with her.

  22. HattieMattieMae profile image69
    HattieMattieMaeposted 3 years ago

    I applaud you for your last attempt...fortunately this debate will go on forever. It is endless, and fortunately your own faith will only be affected.  I think I understood at one time, I can't save anyone. Just give the message through my actions and not words. Those who agree will take the message while others will toss it away. It is their choice, and their lessons in life. No one can save them, but themselves. Free will is their choice, and basically they will just throw it back at you. I've just found it's better to waste my time and energy on writing hubs rather then arguing with people. I believe God will change others lives when they've had enough pain, and the pain is great enough to try something different in their lives.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with your premise, Hattie.  Ultimately no one listens to someone who talks like a Christian, but they sure notice when we act like one.

      smile

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        True on so many different levels

  23. 0
    Lybrahposted 3 years ago

    What I meant is that my hubs are about hell...

    1. SoundNFury profile image84
      SoundNFuryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      lol I thought you were taking a shot at your own hubs.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Did you get any photographs?

  24. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    If we have a brush and paint we can paint a picture however we want. You have words and you chose to describe God this way. These are   just your words and just because you worded the description in this manner, it does not change the fact a bit.

    Why if I were to describe you (just for example, please do not take it to heart) as a foolish, absurd, irrational and illogical guy, you (and everybody else here) would immediately jump on me and say I am judging you without knowing anything about you. Right? Could I not say the same thing about you then? Could I not say that you are judging God without knowing who He is?

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    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    I could (and have) explain that God did not make it this way but man did. But you (all atheists here) WILL NOT AGREE. I could explain why the system is such but you (again all of you) WILL NOT AGREE. So I would just ask you a question.

    If the system is such that our default position now is Hell (and it is), what do you intend to achieve by rejecting it?

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Only "Now"  is "Heaven" or "Hell," which ever you want to make of  it.   Your belief that these two possible states are something you have to wait for until after your death, is the reason your life is being wasted now.  It is also the fountain of your fear.  Those people who translated the scriptures and taught you your religion knew and know that.  They have you trapped!  In a mind-set!

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This is not a fact, it is your opinion. Stating an opinion as fact does not make it one. I realize the post you were referring to deserved rebuttal; but rebutting an assured (yet decidedly faulty) opinion with another opinion that implies a truth is known (when it couldn't possibly be) seems counter productive.



        An opinion stated in that manner is nothing more than an attempt to insult. How, on earth, could you possibly know whether or not his life is being wasted? Simply because you disagree with him on an online forum? No matter how heinous one considers the opinion of another to be on religious matters, it doesn't impede their ability to live a fruitful life. Attempting to negate his worth because you disagree is in line with his argument. Wouldn't you say?



        Although this philosophy might invoke fear in you, how can you state, unequivocally, that he is in the possession of a fountain of fear? Are you not conducting yourself in the exact same manner to the comments that elicited a less than courteous response from you?

        1. jonnycomelately profile image87
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          "    Only "Now"  is "Heaven" or "Hell," which ever you want to make of  it.  "

          Emile:   "This is not a fact, it is your opinion."   ---  My statement is infinitely more of a fact than anything any religious person can say of a supposed ¨"life hereafter."  The latter is a belief, not a fact.

          Emile, you should know me better by now than to accuse me of attempting to insult.   

          When a person of christian persuasion presumes that I need to be "saved," that is a gross insult and only based upon a sense of superiority on their part.  To also take it upon him or her self to ¨"pray" for me is adding insult. 

          To spend time in this short life that you and I have, a time when we can observe all the wonders and beauty of this planet;  when we can spend time helping those who are down-trodden and oppressed;  when we can stand up for those who are persecuted for their parentage or nationality, their culture or their sexual orientation;   this is infinitely more useful of our finite time than worrying about what will happen after our lives end.   

          Everything about the christian religion is based upon this presumption that we can expect a conscious life after death.  Yes, this is driven by fear of retribution in the after life.   This is where your claims about Christ come in.   And this is where those who desire a power over you and me do their utmost to trap us.   

          I am free of that.  You can chose to be free of it if you wish.   So can anyone else here in HubPages.

          If by "courteous" you mean watering down the intent of a response for political correctness, I would try not to go down that road, although of course I (again) have no intention to insult anyone.   

          How about giving me a little courteous response in accepting that my choice of an atheist understanding is worthy of respect?

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You've read into my comments more than was there. I do respect your right to be an atheist. But, everything is a matter of perception and you should (this is just an opinion) respect their rights too. You chose to be insulted. You bear just as much responsibility as does the Christian you choose to be insulted by. Why you let someone else's opinion get under your skin is for you to attempt to understand. Their opinions are no more a threat to you than if I were to insist aliens were going to invade your body tomorrow if you didn't send me some money. If you chose to be insulted by such a statement; whose fault is that? Mine?

            No one states facts  on a philosophy forum, when sticking to the subject matter. All is opinion. Something may be a fact in your perception of life but that does not make it a universal fact and calling them mired in fear, or saying they are wasting their lives is also an opinion. An unkind one.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image87
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Emile, the primary reason I stick here in these religious forums and counter the bigots is that their bigotry causes people to DIE!   Often it is young men in their prime of life whose only fault has been their homosexuality.
              It is ignorant, indoctrinated, hand-washing christians who contribute mostly to these tragedies.  I cannot sit silently while that sick version of christianity is used to stoke the fire.
              Suicide is the ultimate tragedy.  Executions are horrific and so cruel.  Families casting out their young men and women into the wilderness brings heart break for everyone concerned.
              This IS too important to ignore, Emile.
              Please don't push the "sin" back on to the man or woman who happens to be homosexual.  It is bigotry that must stop, even if it means a thoroughly fresh translation of the bible.
              This, again, is why I bother to discuss religion..

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                That's somewhat ridiculous. If you can't see how bigoted and prejudice that post is.....your loss. That is a broad stroke indictment of guilt on anyone simply because they believe in God. You might first try to understand how you are imprisoned in delusion born of fear. Then you might ponder if you aren't wasting your life chasing shadows. You are making excuses for bigotry. Just as a few of them do. How noble.

              2. r-o-y profile image82
                r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Let’s take a look at this word bigot, you use this word to describe Christians who believe differently than you, and that this religion causes people to die.  It seems your primary concern is with homosexuality, and trying to force your opinion on other that this is normal behavior between two people of the same sex, and anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a bigot. Now I looked up this word bigot and this is what I found:
                Extremist, diehard, dogmatist, racist, hypocrite, chauvinist.
                First of all, this homosexual life style that you’ll fighting to justify, have no useful purpose but to fulfill unnatural sexual lustful desires. How can two people with the same sex organs, say two outies, how can one outie penetrate another outie? This makes no sense and serves no practical purpose, except to fulfill the unnatural lustful of one who’s going against natural sexual desire.
                If you saw an elephant trying to mate with a worm, would you say this is natural and normal, of cause you wouldn’t, because its not!  If you saw chicken trying to get-down with a buffalo, would you say this is normal and natural, no you would not, because it’s not!  If you saw a woman trying to make it out with a dog, would you say this is natural and normal, no because it’s not!  And yet one of the most unnatural acts known to man, a man having sex with another man,  you call normal and natural, and anyone you cannot force your unnatural life-style on you call them bigots!
                This Luciferian/satanic world that hates law and order have even changed the meaning of certain English word convince the unbelieving world that this unnatural lustful life must be excepted, or they are bigots. One of the words I’m referring to is the word, “tolerance” now all my life I understood this word to mean that I do not agree with you or what you are doing, but if what you are doing does not affect my life negatively, than I will agree to live and let live, but I’ do not agree with your life-style, and wants no part of it. That is my right and doesn’t make me a bigot! Now the word means that I  must except everything you do as acceptable and normal, or I’m an out-cast from society .
                So if as you say that Christians who do not agree with you and your unnatural lustful life-style are called bigots, what does that make you? At the very least, a hypocrite!!!

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You aren't helping here r-o-y. A prejudicial bigot, calling another person a prejudicial bigot only makes the two prejudicial bigots dig their heels in harder.

                  1. r-o-y profile image82
                    r-o-yposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I don’t understand what you could possibly mean that I’m not helping, why would I help you and your cause, to destroy the Church of Christ?

  26. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    There are some things that unbelievers are unable to understand. It is those this things that causes them to remain unbelievers. I am going to comment on a few of those things here. I do not accept them to accept all I say. They most probably won't. But I am anyway putting it down here with the hope that someone might be benefited. 

    Sacrifice


    The word sacrifice is misunderstood or not understood properly here. When used as a verb the word "sacrifice" has a meaning in dictionary.

    So if I have sacrificed anything, I have completely given it up. I no longer have it. 

    Application of this meaning of the word to Jesus would give confusion. After all you don't sacrifice something to yourself. But the problem is that is not the meaning that is applied here. 

    The word "sacrifice' when used as a noun has a different meaning.


    Does this meaning apply here? Certainly. In the OT we see people offering sacrifices for their sins. They offer animals. The importance there is not on giving up the animal but the slaying of it. Next the priests offer these sacrifices. Again they did not give up anything that belonged to them. They just slew animals.     

    Now the writer of Hebrews talks about the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.


    The act of sacrificing (work of a priest) was done by Jesus. The sacrificial animal was also Jesus Himself for the remission of sins. He slew Himself. The animals were not killed to please God, so that He gives them forgiveness of sins. Rather an animal dies instead of the man. His punishment is put on the animal. But obviously a small animal was not enough to bear the punishment of the large amount of sins committed by a man. He thus had to slay more and more animals. If that then is the plight of one man what about the whole population? Therefore it was necessary that something had to be killed that could take all the punishments of all men. Therefore only the death of Jesus could absorb the punishment of all men. When someone says that Jesus gave His life for you, it means He became a sacrificial animal for you. He did not sacrifice as in give up something He had forever. Rather He performed a sacrifice.

    Jesus both man and God


    If God came down as a man, is He God? Yes, He still is. Is He a man? Yes, as He came down as a man. John's gospel 1st chapter would make this clear.

    When God became a man, He took all the nature of a man. He felt all the pains, had all the temptations and had human experiences. Now the confusion would come out of the fact that He does miracles. Yes, it is true that God does miracles. But people tend to forget that man can use God's power to do miracles. For example, even in the OT those prophets, who we know were men, worked miracles. They were not God but God worked through them. This is the same thing that happened to Jesus as well. God worked miracles through Jesus. Or in other words Jesus worked miracles through God's power. In fact Jesus even said that if we believed Him, we could also do similar and greater miracles.

    Now then, the next question would be, weather He used God's whisk away pain. Many a times Jesus foretold about His death. When he did so He used the word "suffer". If He was planning to whisk away the pain, then was Jesus lying when He said that? No. He was a man and He did suffer. He did not whisk away the pain. He said He would suffer and He did.   

    Also why do you assume that God is immoral? Because only under that pre-assumption does the analogy work.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, he would still be God and not human.



      But, that doesn't make humans gods, which is what Jesus was because He could do miracles and humans could not.



      No, they were human, they were not gods. They didn't perform the miracles on their own.



      Yes, because Jesus and God were one and the same, Jesus was not human.



      Fyi, humans cannot foretell their own deaths.

  27. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 3 years ago

    I no longer debate the issues of faith , or no faith !  There are too too many people on hubs that wish simpley  for divisiveness !   And simply annoying those in possesion of  the simplest form of spirituality ..............Faith !  Good luck !

  28. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    No He is a human every bit.



    Humans can do miracles with God's power. Jesus demonstrated that.



    But they did perform miracles. That was how Jesus did it too.



    Even though Jesus and God were the same Jesus was still a human.



    But humans do prophesy the future.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, He was not a human. If Jesus was human, he would not be able to do miracles. Simple.



      No, Jesus WAS God, so He can do anything He wants.



      That's because Jesus was not human.



      Impossible.



      And, they are usually wrong.

  29. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    If you consider these things more important and useful, that is only your opinion based on your ignorance of the life after death. You know nothing about life after death and you just reject it because it make you more feel comfortable.



    First you say that ours is presumptions. Is that not an insult? Then you say that there are some that want control over us. Is that not an assumption? You can assume that you are free. but actual freedom is in knowing the truth. You can be actually free if you want or you can assume to be free ignoring the truth.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Augustine, you do not know anything about "life after death," except that it continues in other life forms which feed on the wastes (recyclables) of our bodies.  This for me is the awesome nature of life which enritches my awareness.
      You may "believe" there is an after-life, a consciousness, and  I  respect that.
      This world is big enough for you and me to live side by side with all manner of diversity.
      My difficulty is when you or anyone else uses poor and unsubstantiated argument to negate my understanding.  Especially when some of your argument is an insult to my intelligence.  But I can forgive you for that.
      Back to the topic of your Hub:   in my understanding,  life is what I make it, Heaven or Hell.
      Finally, on the matters of insult and presumption that you asked about, I would say No in each case. Is this reasonable debate for you?

  30. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Only an opinion again. You don't know anything about spirit body.



    I could day the same thing.



    How come you don't realize that your arguments do the same to me?

  31. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Amazing Roy. God Bless you.

  32. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    No you get Roy into that. He has read the scriptures.

    Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    ..
    Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Would you soil your pure hands by carrying out the death sentence, or leave it to someone else?

      At least you can say you feature in that crucifixion scenario 2000 years ago .   smile

  33. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    And you talk about judging others!!!

  34. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Evidently you didn't understand the meaning of death.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You hide in the crowd, anonymous, we cannot know you.  Come out from hiding.  Let us see the true You.
      Then I might take you seriously.

  35. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    How does it matter anyway? I never look at anyone's profile and value them at that. I give more importance to what they say. What they say says it all. Its your thoughts vs my thoughts and not you vs me.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Or could it be that you are afraid to come out of the closet?

  36. A Troubled Man profile image60
    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago

    I just love happy endings. big_smile

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I specialize in those, you know.  wink

  37. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    No, Jesus was human. Humans can do miracles.



    Yes, Jesus was God but He was a Human also so He could not do anything He wanted.



    But you forgot that humans also did miracles.



    Very much possible.



    Not the prophets of the Bible.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Now that you've switched to telling blatant lies, there's no point in continuing the discussion.

      1. 60
        augustine72posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes because you are on to saying lies its no point continuing discussion with you.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What lies? I have been pointing out that humans could not have performed the miracles Jesus was alleged to have achieved, hence Jesus was not a human and could do whatever He wanted because He was God in a fake suit.

          Granted, given his omnipotent powers, the fake suit was very convincing. But, I can't imagine it would take very much to convince the folks who lived 2000 years ago of anything considering how easily they were fooled into believing all sorts of myths and superstitions. Even back then, though, there were sparks of intelligence and a wanting to know, yet the myths and superstitions ruled their worldviews...

          Spartacus: I want to know.

          Varinia: Know what?

          Spartacus: Everything. Why a star falls and a bird doesn't. Where the sun goes at night. Why the moon changes shape. I want to know where the wind comes from.

          Varinia: The wind begins in a cave. Far to the north, a young god sleeps in that cave. He dreams of a girl... and he sighs... and the night wind stirs with his breath.

  38. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Motown2Chitown

    So where and how can we have our discussion about contradiction in the Bible?

    1. jonnycomelately profile image87
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      By simply opening up your mind to opinions of others, in a loving way and finish casting judgment.
      There is room for all points of view once we stop condemning on the basis of beliefs.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I wonder if there is a generation gap revealing itself, here. "Baby boomer" generation was called the love generation due to the influence of Neptune in Libra.  The people born before 1946 were of a different mind set. Many were very competitive. We rebelled against them big time. We are still trying to shine the light as far as harmony, love and peace.
        Peace.

    2. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Augustine, while I appreciate your willingness to discuss the Bible's apparent contradictions, it's actually a conversation that I've had many I'm perfectly at peace with my faith, and do not need anyone to act as an apologist.  I'm not a Scripture scholar, but I've had excellent instruction in Scripture, and prefer to get further instruction from those I know personally and trust.  Thank you for the offer.  smile

  39. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    There are 2 lies here. I have been showing you that men in the past like Isiah, Elijah, Elisha etc in the OT and Peter, Paul etc om then NT and many in the recent past have also been performing miracles and yet you stubbornly lie that men cannot do miracles.
    Secondly you also lie that Jesus is God in a fake suite making God an immoral God. Your saying anything does not make it a fact. You lie. 



    Again you say that God had a fake suite and He fooled the people at that time making God and immoral being. That is a lie. So Who is the one who is lying?

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      John 1:1
          In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
      John 1:14
          And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

      Obviously that implies Jesus is god.

      John 10:30-31
          I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

      Colossians 1:16
          For by him [Jesus] were all things created.

      Revelation 22:13
          I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

      1 Timothy 3:16
          God was made manifest in the flesh.

      John 20:28
          And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

      The bible certainly seems to say Jesus was god. Mind you throwing around the term "lie" is a bit of a stretch when discussing a story several thousands of years old, the veracity of which is utterly unproven, that makes some very wild claims and that is believed to be false by about 70% of the worlds population.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, you have not shown that at all. Men cannot do miracles.

      Acts 19:11 - And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

      Only God can do miracles.



      Sorry, but Jesus is nothing more than God hiding in a fake suit. Jesus was not a man.



      Your God is immoral, there are many examples of His immorality in the Bible. That still doesn't show He didn't fake the suit. big_smile

  40. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    You make me sound as though I am the one wanting to discussion with you on the topic of contradictions in the Bible. I want to remind you that you were the one who, while claiming to be a Christian openly declared among these non-believers that our scripture has contradictions. I opposed you strongly at this and that is when you said that you would be happy to discuss the issue with me. Go back and  check what you have posted.

    Atheists say that the scripture has contradictions and hence cannot be considered a valid document. The fact is that there are no contradictions in the Bible and hence it is a valid document. If you claim that the scripture has contradictions and at the same breath say you are a Christian, you are contradicting your self. Is the scripture trustworthy or not? If not why do you trust it? If you cannot support you claims, please do not make ignorant claims that causes damage to Christianity.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You're right...I did offer to discuss it further.  I was a bit put off, however, by the multiple emails you sent me regarding the conversation and then the multiple times you sort of ''called me out'' right here in the forums. 

      I am a Christian.  Believe it if you will, it's no skin off my nose either way.  I very sincerely admit and acknowledge that there are apparent contradictions in the Scriptures if they are read literally. 

      There are those with whom I would not mind discussing this topic, but at the moment, you are not one of them.  I felt a bit stalked and chose as a result to end the conversation.

      Again, I appreciate your willingness to ''help me understand'' but I feel that I already do.

      Have a great day!

  41. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Can I ask you a question? Will you answer?

    You claim to know that hell does not exist and it is a mere threat. How do you know this? What evidence do you have that Hell is not real and you won't be going there? Remember absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      There are and have been countless faiths that have dominated their areas and had fervent believers, they have all had one trend in common #1 the used similar brainwashing techniques to accrue power and wealth #2 They claimed they had THE truth.

      I don't KNOW that god does not exist, just from the available evidence it's incredibly unlikely as that would imply some sort of magic or supernatural world that we never seem to see, assuming a god exists it's incredibly unlikely he cares about mankind at all, why would the god who created a trillion trillion suns across a near infinite universe be concerned with one species on a remote rock, assuming he does care about humanity it's incredibly unlikely that any faith has figured out what he wants from us, assuming somehow Christianity happens to be the one of all the numberless faiths that figured that out it's still incredibly unlikely that he would invent a very painful place to send our souls (again on the wild assumption that souls exist).

      Really the whole idea is laughable no more than scared children clinging to fairy tales that make them feel better, not even original fairy tales but just ones slightly adapted from other faiths. Regardless of whether you are a believer or not that is the explanation for all of those so many faiths but one, the far more rational answer is that it's the explanation for all of them.

  42. 60
    augustine72posted 3 years ago

    Yes Jesus is God and I did not deny that. But He was also a man.



    First a story being thousands of years old does not make it false. You seem to have such vague beliefs. Then your claim that these stories are unproven just shows you have just not seen enough evidences. Again just because a majority of people believe in something does not make it true. All you people have is only such allegations and nothing concrete.

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      God and man... yeah not buying that at all. What defines a man is our limitations and abilities, a being that is all powerful, all knowing and can do magic is not a man at all.

      My beliefs are not vague at all, I believe there is no god, there is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no divine purpose at all, we are simply a more evolved version of the animals we see all around us with lives no more existentially meaningful than theirs, I am quite happy to change my view should it turn out to be wrong but that is what the evidence indicates.

      The claims are unproven, for the vast majority of them the only evidence is the bible itself, everything from the Gexodus (for which there is absolutely no archeological record) to the very existence of Jesus is unsupported by any other source and many of the stories we flat out know to be false like the story of the earth's creation or Noah's Ark.

  43. 60
    haarptiposted 3 years ago

    UNs Code 21 Human Genome Code Redesign, HAARP, Project Blue Beam, Project Montauk, Philadelphia Experiment, and many other government programs researching the human brain, dreamhead, radio signal, "matrix" or vacuum of space and our TV dreamhead, photonics, laser beams, and many other research programs to find and develop the God particle through the mutilation of souls proves God will never exist. Many mutilations can be seen on my Google account.

    They have spent my entire life imaging my body and my body in my mother's womb, to make a "baby" on the "other side of life" (other side of gamma brainwaves and gamma nuclei) on my clitoris -- literally. They created the structure in the world from government facilities to fast-food servers to help themselves to other souls brainwaves that are picked up and received in their "R" world.

    The R world is a virtual reality on the "other side" of life using a fiber optic of life where they have been turning the four colors of STED microscopy laser beams (denaturing life) into a quantum image of the world and themselves into a "green lantern" or "magento". They start this denaturing process (heating up and reforming the body and brain) with hair follicles and a central nerve in the big toe on the left foot (when I was a child), which later develops into "restless leg syndrome" or a buzzing in the left foot and, at times, odd buzzing in the brain) where they turned the quantum image of the world and themselves into a "green lantern" or "magento".

    They use orgasm which doesn't meet the brain to make the brain keep seeking orgasm to bring gamma brainwaves to the next hump of light and sound with this denatured image of the body while killing the soul in bits and pieces to turn the light of the soul into an xray, which acts more like matter than light. As they make the central nervous system through the clitoris 'brighter', they are not only making a baby on the end of my clitoris, stretching my central nervous system out of my body (a rack they made sure I knew of before I started to hear them -- they call this "masturbating" and made sure everything I write to explain the 'story' is not "family friendly" to the viewers or readers of the horror of what 'gangbangers' (Haarpists, Blue Beam users, etc) have been doing to my life, my soul, my dreams, my 'space', my existence.

    I have many images where they are using beams through my computer (biometrics), a hand reaching out of my computer and grabbing my phone, a 3-D super-blue light holograph of my computer monitor. All the while, throughout me entire life, these many, many gangbanging souls have been planning and performing numerous horrors and atrocities against my body, mind, life, and soul -- they simply call this "destiny".

    God has no right to do the things these "people" -- souls -- have been doing to my existence. God will never and does not exist. Through their "voice-to-skull" transmissions, they stake claims they "created God".

    1. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      oooo.....kay, Am I the only confused by this?

      1. JMcFarland profile image93
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        nope.  I'm lost too.

      2. jonnycomelately profile image87
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Deepes, surely you can understand all of that.... it's in plain English, all good scientific stuff, very serious.......
        Now.... what was he/she talking about?   Something the HubPages would not normally countenance, I would think.   But all in good fun, obviously.

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Jonny... I have no clue about any of that.. It's all Greek to me

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What's wrong with you guys, this stuff makes perfect sense. smile

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        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        By all means, dumb it down for me

  44. SwordofManticorE profile image75
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Hell is a man made myth. You Christians who believe in hell, follow another gospel than the one the apostel Paul brought us.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Look who's talking, your entire religion is man made myth.

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        YawwwnnnZZZZzzzzz....

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's probably the most intelligent thing you've said thus far. Well done. smile

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Alot more intellegent than what you have ever put on the table with your troll like comments.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No, you offer no intelligence whatsoever, only fantasy based beliefs.

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Thats not true. I never cast pearls before unbelievers.

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                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Let me ask you this, if you hold your pearls only for believers, how can you hope to change the world? One issue is that some believers only share their thoughts and belief with other believers. This is the equivalent of preaching to the choir because you are giving information with people who already agree with you. How is that winning new souls.. Sometimes, giving pearls isn't limited only to your words, but also your actions and how you handle people. If we are to call ourselves Christians, we must be Christ like and follow his example. I don't remember seeing Christ fighting anyone back when they were beating him up

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The answer is simple. Bring the gospel to the unbeliever, but if they reject it. Dust your feet on the way out.

  45. A Troubled Man profile image60
    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago

    Interestingly enough, a Mormon recently visited my doorstep while I was out, the very first time that's ever happened, and left a calling card, an invitation for a free copy of the The Book of Mormon. I just might take him up on that offer.

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That is interesting..My house has been deemed a "no knock" home by Mormons. Something about me being Satan or something...LOOL  *shrugs**

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Like I said, it's the first time Mormons have come to my door. I have yet to meet them and offer them that very same alternative. big_smile

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Oh no. it took a few weeks before they learned, but they learned

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      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Oh, ATM, do!  I had a Mormon friend at work who gave me one, and it was a fascinating insight.  I had a lot of prejudices about the Mormon church.  Reading the Book of Mormon dispelled some and confirmed some, but in the end, it was very educational.

      As an aside, that woman remains to this day one of the kindest, most genuine people I've ever known, and I consider myself lucky to have known her.  Interestingly, she married an atheist.  Go figure.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm with you on that one, Mo. I too have never met an arrogant Mormon, ready to "share" at me. That's what surprises me so much that there are Mormon evangelists out there. I look forward to our first meeting to see what he has to say.

        The Jehovah's have sunk pretty low these days, all they come around with lately are pamphlets with the headlines, "The Top Six Lies Told By Christianity"

        What a hoot.

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          Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yup, I haven't been approached by a Jehovah's Witness in forever.  I'm always pleasant, but I always say that I'm not interested.  I refuse their offers of literature, and when they ask if they can talk to me about the Bible, I always say that I'd love to share the views of my church as well.  That turns them tail usually.  Saddens me, really.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The trick is to never let them know you're offering anything, except to listen. Then, slowly and surely start picking their arguments apart.

            For example, with the "Six Lies of Christianity" meeting, I allowed the Jehovah to point out and explain those lies. All he could muster was to state those particular tenets of Christianity were false without a shred of evidence.

            My argument to him was not about the lies, but about how dishonest he thought it to knock on peoples doors and slander other religions in order to gain converts.

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I invite Jehovah's Witnesses into my home as often as they've come and discuss the bible with them.. now it's usually a short conversation once I really dig into and start telling them verbatim what I know they're going to tell me.. yeah, they usually leave pretty quickly after that telling me that their pastor would be coming.. I have yet to meet a pastor yet.

      2. jonnycomelately profile image87
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Mo, that's exciting news for me, the dreaded atheist.   Wonder if there's a Mormon guy out there who would like to come and work for me!  wink

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          with your boyish charm and rugged looks, I don't see why not Jonny!!

 
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