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WHY DO CHILDREN STILL STARVE IN AFRICA IF THERE IS A GOD.

  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    I have read a number of views here from both Atheists and Believers especially with regards to starving children in Africa.

    First of all let me start by saying that I am African, born, bred and raised in Africa. When we speak about Africa and its problems you must understand that God has nothing to do with it. Africa is one of the richest places on earth. Our people believe that we did not develop so many things in the past because there was no need for it. as necessity is the mother of all inventions. Africa has an abundance of food and in cases where there isnt there is the land which is rich and fertile, we have good weather so there is a lack of need for massive structures and prior to colonialism there was respect for animal life. We did not kill animals except for when it was needed. Africa in a lot of ways is the cradle of life for the world.

    The problems in Africa are complex but I can assure you they were not caused by God. They were started by colonialism, extended by slave trade and have continued by racial discrimination. Every single one of these is cause by men such as myself. When Barack Obama became president it was a big deal that a black man was elected. This feeling was not developed by God it was done by people. African president who were taught corruption by colonial masters have for centuries plundered and stolen its resources for their own good and starved their own people. Africa is in trouble because of people and not because of God. God by nature has given us free will and as such will not deny us of the consequences of our choices. When a king/president rules with terror do the people not suffer.

    Look to yourselves and see if you ever learnt anything from the 1st or second world war. Millions of people died. Did God cause this? How about global warming, Did God cause climate shifts?

    More important than blame what have you done about it? I can honestly say that in all my years in Africa I have never seen one so called NGO or charity asking for £3 a month to help children ever.

    I am happy for the girl that got to go to disney land but I also know that even in the bible God did not always come down from heaven himself to make a change in the life of his people. He sent someone to deliver them. Look at Moses, Nehemiah, David, Habakuk and Jesus (who walked as a man).

    To my fellow christians be careful not to miss what that really means and my fellow Atheist be careful to speak about things you really do not understand but have only seen from the media. God has nothing to do with problems in Africa. Africa is damaged by people. To borrow from a saying "Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    When you refuse to feed others when you have enough you have starved him (not God), When you refuse shelter to a friend (you have made him homeless) not God. God answers prayers through people in a lot of cases so do not say he doesnt. I have so many testimonies to share but not enough time as I am only passing by.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Look here...

      http://worldhunger.org/harmfuleconomicsystems.htm

      The World Hunger Organization agrees with you and so do I. That isn't the point of the argument, though, which instead is that many believers claim God intervenes in our world and they are only too happy and grateful to thank Him for it. These acts of good faith on His behalf are tales of the magical opening up of a gridlocked boulevard in order to let one special Christian get through it, to finding their lost car keys. These tales of magic and whimsy have both entertained and raised hackles on these forums.

      So, if believers are going to praise their gods for intervening in their lives, we can conclude God is just far too busy finding lost car keys, or He simply ignores the plight of the starving.

      Yes, we know the cause of everything on the planet is from men, that's the point entirely.



      Gods don't do bad things, they don't do good things, they don't do anything at all. The argument as to why they don't do anything is another story.



      You are contradicting yourself. Gods do not answer prayers in a lot of cases, or in any case.

      Which prayer do you know for sure did God answer for you? How do you know God answered it, did He tell you Himself?



      Then, your entire post is meaningless and serves only as a stark contradiction.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I have seen suffering you probably cannot relate with. I have seen poverty that is in stark contrast to anything shown in the media on TV. I have seen racism you probably only watched or heard about in Django or roots and yes I still believe God exists.

        You asked how I know God answered my prayer. I know the difference between luck and chance and an answered prayer as there is order to an answered prayer.

        Also I have seen the lame walk, I have seen the blind receive sight. Even I myself have been healed of Asthma. I do not believe just for that reason I have also seen drug addicts suddenly give up drugs and peoples lives restored. This is not chance and no matter what you believe I know that ultimately I will not succeed in convincing you that God exists any more than anyone can convince me that Buddha is God. I can only throw light on certain areas. Ultimately if you will be converted God will do it himself.

        If you want to really know and be an agnostic and not just form a conclusion that over a billion people are crazy then ask and be open minded. The argument about not seeing God is a silly one to me as just because we do no see oxygen does not mean it does not exist or we do not need it to be alive.

      2. SparklingJewel profile image66
        SparklingJewelposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        ...there is order to the universe and everything in it. there is a divine order that is all love, one that is not, and the current one that is a combination of both.  which do you prefer? I for one strive for the order that is all love
        it is free will choice that creates what is in the universe. Choice come through thoughts, words, deeds, feelings and beliefs. The subconscious feelings and beliefs are the soul strength or weakness in each of us.
        We must desire to learn to do better with each of our choices of free will.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Just because you want a loving God doesn't mean there is any God at all. You can't wish it and make it happen. Reality check.

          1. SparklingJewel profile image66
            SparklingJewelposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            ...did I mention the word God?   I have faith in that order of love.

            I would have no problem, though, calling it God, because I recognize humanity's problems with defining God and I don't have those problems. So, by example I am trying to make my point. We see thedivinie  natural order in nature that has not been corrupted by humanity's abuse.

            1. getitrite profile image82
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What's love got to do with anything?

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You have faith in the order chemical reactions in the brains of humans?

          2. taburkett profile image61
            taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            OH - how wrong you are.  I have wished it and it was granted.  You have fought it and so it will never happen.  When God acts, he acts through me.  When you choose to ignore God - you choose your own poor destiny.  No people in my area of control have ever starved.  None have ever died due to lack of care.  You wish to spread viral disease through your radical attack on God.  However, those who follow the sower of righteousness prosper and live.  There are many manmade problems in Africa - but - if everyone worked through the principles of the Lord, then the problems of Africa would cease.  You and others who deny the Lord are the reason for such travesty - because - you declare yourselves in control and then find that you cannot control it, so you then have to blame someone.  Only the devil is to blame - but - you lack the courage to find the spirit to do so.  God forgives you for being so blind and so do I.

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That you have "have wished it and it was granted." I have little doubt.  Just as I have little doubt that you have wished it and it was NOT granted, but of course we'll ignore those times.  They don't support the desired conclusion and are thus not to be mentioned or considered.

              But..."God forgives you for being so blind and so do I".  I expect that kind of thinking from believers, just as I expect them to claim that believers will always prosper and live even as the ignore the millions of believers that neither prosper NOR live.

              1. taburkett profile image61
                taburkettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                you are an incredible disbeliever who creates your own doubt by proclaiming that which you cannot understand.  I have never had a wish NOT granted because I have not wished for that which I do not need.  You on the otherhand indicate that many negative things have impaced your life and so you continually seek the negative in all things.  Christians will always prosper because we know that we can prosper by wishing only for those things we really need for life.  We will always live better by enjoying what we have, not by being jealous of others.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  There is a very thin line between what one considers their needs for life and their jealousy of the needs of others.

                  I think the term is, "Keeping up with the Joneses", which has become the American dream.

                  And boy, do we ever see Christians trying to prosper...

                  http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/07/22/us/22messner-2.600.jpg

                2. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  In other words, you're saying Christians are magical wonderful people. lol  But in reality, Christians are just regular homo sapiens, suffering from psychotic delusion....

                  delusion of gran·deur (grnjr, -jr)
                  n.

                  A delusion in which one believes oneself possessed of great importance, power, wealth, intellect, or ability.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I guess you are still stating your opinion as if it is a fact.

                    In a case like that I think the same term

                    delusion of gran·deur (grnjr, -jr)
                    n.
                    A delusion in which one believes oneself possessed of great importance, power, wealth, intellect, or ability.

                    Applies to Atheist. Sine we know that lack of sight,touch, taste of something does not make it non existent (e.g oxygen) then we can say that by your same logic Atheists suffer the same. 

                    NB: By your own conclusions not mine.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay, here is your change to shut me up and make a believer our of me. You only need to ask your God for one small bit of information and I'll be reformed.

                  Ask you God the name of the street Rad Man lived on in 1980. A simple request, one you would think God would want to give you and one that would change my life and bring joy to your's because you've helped convert a lost soul.

                  I'll wait over here...

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you ask me that question because you will genuinely want to know and be convinced if he does answer me or do you ask to insult my God?

                    If I a man will not not answer such a question when it is designed to ridicule and insult why would God?

                    If you genuinely seek to know he will show you why he is known as "ancient of days".

                    It might interest you to read the book of Daniel and see this

                    Daniel 2
                    New International Version (NIV)
                    Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream

                    2 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers[a] to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, “I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.[b]”

                    4 Then the astrologers answered the king,[c] “May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”

                    5 The king replied to the astrologers, “This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me.”

                    7 Once more they replied, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”

                    8 Then the king answered, “I am certain that you are trying to gain time, because you realize that this is what I have firmly decided: 9 If you do not tell me the dream, there is only one penalty for you. You have conspired to tell me misleading and wicked things, hoping the situation will change. So then, tell me the dream, and I will know that you can interpret it for me.”

                    10 The astrologers answered the king, “There is no one on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer. 11 What the king asks is too difficult. No one can reveal it to the king except the gods, and they do not live among humans.”

                    12 This made the king so angry and furious that he ordered the execution of all the wise men of Babylon. 13 So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.

                    14 When Arioch, the commander of the king’s guard, had gone out to put to death the wise men of Babylon, Daniel spoke to him with wisdom and tact. 15 He asked the king’s officer, “Why did the king issue such a harsh decree?” Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel. 16 At this, Daniel went in to the king and asked for time, so that he might interpret the dream for him.

                    17 Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 18 He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven 20 and said:

                    “Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
                        wisdom and power are his.
                    21 He changes times and seasons;
                        he deposes kings and raises up others.
                    He gives wisdom to the wise
                        and knowledge to the discerning.
                    22 He reveals deep and hidden things;
                        he knows what lies in darkness,
                        and light dwells with him.
                    23 I thank and praise you, God of my ancestors:
                        You have given me wisdom and power,
                    you have made known to me what we asked of you,
                        you have made known to us the dream of the king.”
                    Daniel Interprets the Dream

                    24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, “Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him.”

                    25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, “I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”

                    26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), “Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?”

                    27 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:

                    29 “As Your Majesty was lying there, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than anyone else alive, but so that Your Majesty may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.

                    31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

                    36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

                    39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

                    44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

                    “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

                    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

                    48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

                    NB: I tell you the truth, As surely as my God lives. If you seek genuine answers for the sake of Knowledge he will answer you. God is not dead and does not rely on blind faith. You really only need to be on the fence with regards to the existence of God. The rest is up to God and no amount of words or research can truly sway the heart of Man. Only God himself.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Uh-huh. You do realize, I hope, that only the most dangerous people on the planet throughout history have uttered those words.



              I'm sorry, but that is a complete denial of reality.

              Africa is literally split in half with Islam in the north and Christianity, the south, with the left over 10% making up everything else. So, if you want to talk about God, then consider the constant conflict between the two religions there, shootings and bombing, which anyone can read for themselves...

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17886143

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17885476

              Of course, the religious problems are just part and parcel to the various other problems Africa is plagued, which btw have nothing to do with your God and no amount of "following the sower of righteousness" will ever solve them.



              Don't you think it rather pedestrian to be accusing people for the problems in Africa simply because they don't follow your religion?

              And then, to add insult to injury, you forgive us?

              lol  <--- Me accepting your forgiveness

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                For the first time I agree with you in part. It is true Africa is plagued with many problems and poverty in only one amongst a few. It is also true that Islam and Christianity have been destroying each other for some times but this is not without reason.

                Remember according to biblical history Abraham rejected his first son (though illegitimate) Ishmael and cast him out in favour of Isaac. Ishmael is the father of Islam and Isaac a grand father of the jews and thus Christianity.  There is deep bad blood and also deep misunderstanding between the two religions. This is in fact another human problem and not a God one. According to the bible God promised Abraham a son through his wife sarah and they got impatient and dis believed so she convinced him to sleep with her servant and thus Ishmael was born. God eventually fulfilled his promise but by then Ishmael was  9 years old (I might be wrong about his age).

                I do not think it is right to judge someone that does not believe for that reason. It is okay not to believe if all I am presenting is just words (no matter how well researched). A belief in God is based on experiencing God in true form.

                No man in the bible just believed because he was told so, God gave them a reason to know. The only difference is I am also of the opinion that God will reveal himself to an agnostic before an Atheist. It is okay to say I do not know if God exists and to be honest I will respect you for it because I do not have some deluded sense of self grandeur that makes me feel my word must be taken as the truth.

                God said if we seek him he will show himself. I can only try to convince an Atheist to the point where he genuinely wants to know if it is in fact true. The rest is up to God to show that he is real. My God is not dead and does not need me to provide evidence of life. Much as with science if we ask the right questions long enough we will find the answer.

                If you think there is even a small chance God might exist then ask him based on the understanding that if he does exists (he is GOD and not man) and will show himself to you and until he does, it is okay to remain "uncertain".

                God did not force me to chose him, Salvation in the bible sense might be for all but it is a choice and will always remain so.

                Also I was going to skip saying this as there is a chance this is all you will hear or read from this whole reply but here I go.

                Christians are not the most dangerous people ever. Atheism has killed so much more than Christianity (or rather to put correctly, killing in the name of God). For as long as there has been "A God" there has been killing in his or her name be it apollos, Oden, Zeus or Hercules.  This is a mankind condition and not a God condition.

                Also Atheism is responsible for some serious atrocities. E.g Adolf Hitler was an Atheist. He was deeply influenced by frederick niche who famously said a few of this

                A) A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
                B) In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
                C) In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.
                D)The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it.
                E) In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist, section 16
                F) What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.
                G) God is dead.Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, section 108
                H) Morality is herd instinct in the individual. Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, section 116
                I) The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, section 130

                Hitler was responsible for the holocaust and responsible for the deaths of 60 to 80 million people in the world. The second world war claimed about 4% of the worlds population or to put in perspective more people than are presently alive in the whole of the United Kingdom.

                B) Other Atheist are Benito Mussolini: 224,250 deaths
                C) Napoleon Bonaparte: 2.5 million to 6 million
                D) Mao Zedong: 20-67 million (with reported incidences of cannibalism) over 5 million reported in death camps.
                E) Joseph Stalin: 10 to 60 Million
                F) Pol Pot: 2 million Cambodians (one third of his country at the time)
                G) Mao Zedong
                H) Jim Jones making over 900 people commit suicide. He was atheist but is sometimes confused to have been a Christian. This has been shown to be false.
                I) Kim Jong Il: over 4 million people.
                J) Americas most famous serial killer Jeffery Dahmer who famously said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?”
                Jeffery Dahmers quote is exactly my argument on Atheism and Morality. And the rest showcase evidence of a lack of accountability to anyone or thing is God is not a central moral reference point. It simply becomes whatever makes you feel good and is only punishable if society (relative to where you live) does not accept it.
                By my calculations this is almost 300 million people dead as a result of Atheism and these were done by just 10 people listed here. Averaging almost 30 million deaths per listed atheist.
                For the sake of truth let Atheists get off their moral high horse. There is more damage done in the name of non belief than in the name of belief. Also organized religion is responsible for murders and has been for centuries even pre-dating Christianity. This was the case in so many cultures that Christianity was not a part of.

                Now that I hope I have cleared that up. I hope you will not ignore the rest of what I said.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry I didn't read all of what you said because you are under the illusion that Hitler was an Atheist. Hitler considered himself a Christian.

                  Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Okay, Hitler was no Christian . Just like Jim Jones (Also mentioned)  he used Christianity to gain support. Nazism was an Atheist Ideology

                    The NSDAP Party Program stated: “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....”

                    This is not Christian. Now read the rest of what I said and as I feared you will just get hung up on only that part. I said a bit more than just the murders by Atheism.

                  2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Also hitler famously stated "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."

                    Hitler appeared Christian prior to the the second world war but abandoned his belief and we have the world war as a result. He could not say he did not believe in God as religious ordination is often one of the strongest motivators of organised crime. Afterall how many times have people been convinced to do dangerous things in the name of pleasing God. Look at islam and suicide bombing today. When one believes in God and is misled it can prove a very effective and dangerous weapon of war. The evidence of that is all around us today with battles against terrorism all in the name of God.

                2. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  while you may be able to prove, in fact, that atheists have killed people, there's something wrong with your "list".  Firstly, Stalin was a graduate of theological seminary, which may not make him a christian, but he was aware enough of christianity that his personal beliefs may be in question.  Secondly, Adolph Hitler was a lifelong Catholic, and was never excommunicated from the Catholic church.  In fact, he often pointed to Catholic teachings to justify his attempted extermination of the jews.

                  As for the rest of your "list" while they may be atheists (and it's impossible to know for certain" they did not carry out their deeds because they were atheists.  This is in direct contrast to the fact that for centuries, the church carried out the inquisition, the witch trials, the torture and murder of thousands upon thousands of people BECAUSE of their religion specifically.  Your numbers seem a bit off, and it's impossible to say for certain because we don't know how many were killed in the crusades, in the various inquisitions, in the witch trials, in the wars and atrocities carried out in the name of 'god' etc. 

                  http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Hitler

                  http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? … an_atheist

                  http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? … auses_evil

                3. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Of course, the Christian/Islamic wars have been going on for centuries. They never stop.



                  Exactly, the irrational belief held by Abraham regarding alleged God promises did little more than destroy his family. Families are constantly destroyed everyday because of Christianity.



                  No, it's an indoctrinated belief.



                  It isn't, not by a long shot.



                  But, He doesn't show himself, ever.



                  The failure to show Himself has been very real.



                  Gee, that's a relief.



                  Yahweh.



                  lol You haven't cleared up anything. You post some stats for some of the worlds worst despots and expect us to just swallow your claim it was all due to atheism.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Gibberish.

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      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So wise. Thank you.

      1. getitrite profile image82
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Deleted

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          where was I making sense? lol

          1. getitrite profile image82
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Deleted

            1. 0
              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              wink

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Ignor him Beth. Works for me.

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                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Im already ignoring ATM. I can't ignore everyone.

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It works for me.

                2. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So are you going to go around to each forum where I post, so that you may inform people as to the really bad, bad human being I'm?  Why have you judged me?   Why is it that when someone has the really in-depth comments, you see it as someone who really just wants to fight?  Why have beliefs if the only people you want to hear from are people who agree with you?  It would seem that you are insecure about your beliefs....and angry.  I'm sure God is very proud of this foolishness.

    3. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You were making sense up until you started talking about this imaginary God as if it was real.  SMH!

    4. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      As both getitrite and ATM have pointed out, you are right, the troubles in Africa and elsewhere are man made. That's the point. That's what we are saying. People in affluent areas go around thanking God for little nothings and can't grasp the larger picture.

    5. The0NatureBoy profile image68
      The0NatureBoyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The answer I have for your title question, WHY DO CHILDREN STILL STARVE IN AFRICA IF THERE IS A GOD? is that is an experience every lifeforce, as man, must experience via karma and reincarnation.  However, the only god I have found is my own life-force and such things are a part of the requirement for me to learn the various manifestation in and of existence.

      Everything happening happens exactly the same way cycle after cycle and because we don't usually remember previous incarnations we don't know it has or will happen to us.  During the governing reign of each of the 4 primary ethnic of man, Asians, Natives of the Americas, Africans and Europeans there are different conditions which are manifested on one ethnic by another.  It is doing the "winter of civilization" {when the white snow destroys everything except the evergreen plants symbolizing everlasting life} that this condition happens in Africa. 

      If it was realized that the name Africa isn't what that land was originally called by its aboriginals, like America is the name applied by Europeans to the western 2 continents, it would begin to lead us into understanding things are happening by some order unknown to us.  Although the world looks chaotic to our temporal minds it is a well designed "orchestration" working just exactly as it was designed.

    6. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Awesome information.

      ....So....Africa needs reformed from inside the Country, right?   To get rid of the tyranny,  to make a democracy or republic where the poor will be helped.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes exactly that. It is a leadership problem

    7. Kevin Peter profile image72
      Kevin Peterposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      When something bad happens anywhere, God is always blamed for such problems. But I don't undrestand why? Since the children in Africa is starving it doesn't mean that God don't love them. God loves everyone equally. He may have got some kind of intensions in his mind. Who are we human beings to question him?

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The ones who are starving to death while other believers have plenty?

        1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
          Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          All these double standards from Atheist is doing my head in.

          First of all you claim that there are more Christians in Prison than Atheist and that age, culture, race, education, sex, society and genes have nothing to do with this "fact" and in so doing make the indirect conclusion or potential conclusion that Christians are bad people who are more likely to go to jail/commit crimes than Atheists..

          Then you say that Christian/believers have plenty and they watch other people starving to death. Did you just chose to ignore the overwhelming fact that most charities are run and owned by Christian organisation trying to make a difference to a world destroyed by man (and not God). Have you ever heard of JAM (which is a Christian organisation) that feeds over 1million African children a year and does not discriminate (As per the Children's religion)? How about the red cross (with its red cross sign showing clearly its affiliation with Christianity)

          What does Atheism do for mankind that makes it feel it can point a finger on starvation? What do you do personally? What difference do you make?
          I never understand the double standards every time.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, those are the prison statistics, they are not just claims.



            Are you saying the facts are lies?



            No, most charities are NOT run and owned by Christian organizations, that is entirely false.



            Sorry, but neither one of those are Christian organizations.



            They don't go around telling the starving they require salvation before they get any food.

            1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
              Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              They are Christian organisations dedicated to people. You really have no idea about the religion you criticise. Were you just taught to hate or did something happen to you?

              What does helping have to do with conversion. Christians help without conversion and it is silly to believe that you must be Christian to receive aid from a Christian organisation.

              Jam, is as I know one its founder and he was an Atheist before but that's another story. When he converted his legacy now feeds over 1 million starving African children. It is silly and quite frankly foolish to claim JAM isn't. Its founder is Peter pretorious, You really should hear his conversion story. Its quite powerful.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The Red Cross is not a Christian organization. Lying about it and then calling me a hater is pretty intellectually dishonest, especially for one who touts multiple masters degrees.

                1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                  Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  OPk, I have gotten really tired of this. Let everyone who claim or talks about degrees please state what they have. Its not my fault if I am more educated than you. I went school as a hobby because I loved knowledge and got more degrees than I really want or need to prove my point.
                  This childish jealousy has to stop. I mean, am I talking to children aged between 9-12 years old here or what?

                  1. Zelkiiro profile image83
                    Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    >calls for everyone to state what degrees they have
                    >doesn't list his own degrees

                    >claims others are acting childish
                    >makes childish accusations

                    >says he is more educated than us
                    >cannot provide any facts to support his case

                    If only I could change my font color to green, then this post would be complete...

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You think we are jealous?

                2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                  Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  By the way, I mean this as a personal criticism and not a direct insult. A troubled man. You are deeply ignorant that it saddens me to even speak to me. The red cross was founded by a man called Henry Dunant. He was a Christian. Dunant grew up during the period of religious awakening known as the Réveil, and at age 18 he joined the Geneva Society for Alms giving. In the following year, together with friends, he founded the so-called "Thursday Association", a loose band of young men that met to study the Bible and help the poor, and he spent much of his free time engaged in prison visits and social work.

                  I mean how lazy are you that you cant just make use of Google?

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    That is a personal attack as well.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, but the Red Cross is an organization that does not align itself with any religious organization. These are facts. You can continue lying about it or just go to their website to educate yourself.

            2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
              Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Read this http://www.gavinvarejes.com/1/category/ … ica/1.html
              and see the section that pertains to JAM.

  2. wbfree profile image60
    wbfreeposted 3 years ago

    Why are atheist SOOOOOOOOO preoccupied with God and engage in their endless, useless pranks and futile attempts to slander Him, IF they believe He does not exist?????????

    1. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Then, please show us the proof of this God, and end this preoccupation.  Should be a very simple task, as you and others are perpetually heaping accolades upon something that we see no evidence of, whatsoever.  Make the evidence clear, so that even these dense atheist can comprehend it.  Thanks

    2. healthyfitness profile image83
      healthyfitnessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Umm because people are using God as a backbone for social issues such as abortion, gay marriage etc.. Not to mention some schools are forbidden from teaching proper science because of "God" and thus making our children dumb as hell!

      A better question is "Why did Christians burn anyone that didn't agree with them alive at the stake?!?!"

    3. SwordofManticorE profile image73
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Because they are too cheap to feed the poor and want to put the blame on God.

      Btw, when was the last time a Christian burned anyone at the stake?

      1. Zelkiiro profile image83
        Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Not quite at the stake, but here we have a case from 2008:

        http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/05/21/idUSL21301127

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
          SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And where does it say that Christians did this horrible act?

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            96% of papua new guinea's consider themselves Christians.

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02 … ew-guinea/

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
              SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wow, how you like to take articles and twist it to support your hate to Christianity is obviouse. The artical didn't even mention any accusations towards Christians, It was done by a cannibal cult that believed they could gain powers by eating the brains of dead witch doctors. Next time you post a link in this nature. At least use the common sense to read the article first.

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The part about the cult was a separate incident. A country with a Christian percentage of 96 and a mob stripped, tortured and bound a woman accused of witchcraft, then burned her alive in front of hundreds.

                "Bystanders, including many children, watched and some took photographs of Wednesday’s brutal slaying. Grisly pictures were published on the front pages of the country’s biggest circulating newspapers, The National and Post-Courier, while the prime minister, police and diplomats condemned the killing.

                In rural Papua New Guinea, witchcraft is often blamed for unexplained misfortunes. Sorcery has traditionally been countered by sorcery, but responses to allegations of witchcraft have become increasingly violent in recent years.

                Kepari Leniata, a 20-year-old mother, had been accused of sorcery by relatives of a 6-year-old boy who died in the hospital the day before."

                1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                  Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  People naturally fear what they do not understand. This is repeated in history several times over and as I said earlier. There is a difference between actual Christians and people who use the name the commit all sorts. I can assure you that anyone that has ever really read the bible remember Jesus gave only two commandments " love God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself".

                  Even when it comes to enemies Jesus says if someone slaps you on the left cheek turn over the right". He goes one to say that if anyone curses you , you should pray for him. When a woman was accused of committing adultery and was about to be stoned Jesus replies and says "Let him without sin cast the first stone"  as the story goes not one person did. Jesus also teaches " remove the log in your eye before you remove the speck in another's".  Jesus never advocated revenge nor did he give us the right to judge others.

                  He also says my people obey me.

                  I am a Christian and I condemn such actions. No one who does or believes in that can truly say he follows God because even the Son of God condemned such.

                  This is what I believe and any person who calls himself a Follower of God must. This is what we must act.

                  1 Corinthians 13
                  New International Version (NIV)
                  13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

                  4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

                  8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

                  Real Christianity is about Gods love for his people and not his judgement.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I agree, but you can't just say anyone who sins in anyway is not a Christian, because you would be judging and throwing the first stone. The bible is open to interpretation and people get from it what they want or need. I wasn't pointing to these articles as proof that Christians are bad people. He made the comment that these things don't happen anymore, but they do and they did.

  3. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    The question of God as a divine deity is not one of good or evil.  The God question is one of creation (i.e Who created Man).

    In Christianity we believe first and foremost that God is just and sovereign.  This is more important than good or bad and more so especially because the concept of good or evil is ultimately relative and subject to cultural meaning. It is too flexible. e.g in some cultures in the world today it is good for a girl to be married at 9 years old and others it is evil. We believe in a just God who also does not show partiality. To put in another way, the sun shines on both the good and bad of this world. It is left to them to decide what to do with it. The question of justice only comes up when potential injustice is raised.

    Also God by the very definition of the term transcends age as it means having no beginning or end. So the question of who made God becomes as similar as why is water, water? The properties of the object is what defines it and the properties of a divine deity is as ageless ad timeless (with no beginning or end).

    When addressing hardship in the world and attributing it to God. it is important to remember that as a democratic nation (i,e either America or the UK) you must believe that true Justice and freedom is allowing people to do what they want but also putting laws in place that guide such behaviours. If a man commits murder it is not unlawful to seek justice for him.

    If Colonial masters destroyed Africa at the first and Africa continues to destroy itself who is to blame? Did God not provide the land for the food and the food on it? Is he to blame when one government harvests it all and uses it to buy expensive jets while the rest of the nation starves.

    In simpler terms there is a cause and effect order. At no point does God in the bible promise anyone an easy and stress free life and as a matter of fact Jesus once said "The poor will always be amongst you".  Always being the key term here.

    It is also important to note that the God of the bible is primarily focused on his people. He did not save every nation nor did he hear the cries of every one. So if you must accuse the Christian God (Im not implying there are other Gods, only using the term for illustration reasons). of prayers not answered you must have met the condition before you can say it doesnt work.

    It is like trying to prove a car does not run on gas when you never put gas in it.

    John 9:31, "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him."
    We believe there are people whose prayer God will not hear. Isaiah 59:2 says, "But you iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

    Not only this there are also conditions for Christians for prayers to be answered and barriers to prayers.
    e.g
    1)Exodus 20:12, Deuteronomy 5:16 and Ephesians 6:1-3 link long life with your honoring of your parents.
    2)In Exodus 23:25-26, the condition was, "And ye shall serve the Lord your God...." Then God would take sickness away from you.
    3)1 Timothy 2:15 promises that a woman will not die in childbirth -- but only if she continues in faith, holiness and sobriety.

    And a few other, these are what we know as conditional promises in which we are only asked to meet the conditions. However there are also unconditional promises in the bilble
    A) GOD HAS UNCONDITIONAL PROMISED NO MORE FLOOD TO DESTROY THE EARTH, Gen.9:8-17.
    B) GOD HAS UNCONDITIONALLY APPOINTED PHYSICAL DEATH FOR ALL MEN, EXCEPT THOSE LIVING AT THE 2ND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST, Heb.9:27; 1Cor.15:21,22.

    My belief in God originates from where do people come from and I must be honest I get very confused when it come to Atheist because while I understand the Atheists who only do not believe in God because of Christian that acknowledge him with their lips and deny him with their lives. I do not understand when a man will see a car or house and believe an intelligent mind made, designed and gave function to every being of the object but when it come to humanity where our abilities and potentials are some unmeasurable especially as a group they believe it was as a result of chance. At what point do you acknowledge that even that is not logical.

    Religion is ultimately about mystery and things we do not understand and for any one man to sit and say that because they hold it that an intelligent being did not make us and we came from years of evolution is beyond me. Also can I point out that any scientist worth their salt understand evolution to be more about adaptability than about origin. As a matter of fact Charles Darwins Origin of species originates from his study in the galapagos island where he witness adaptability and not evolution.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Justice and sovereignty are also subject to cultural meaning, no different from good and bad. And, we already know what Christianity says about good and bad. God good, everything else bad.



      We could list the societies that consider marrying 9 year old girls good and find deep seated religious beliefs driving that misogyny.



      Then, put the gas in the car and prove it runs. Show us how you know prayers are answered.



      No, it was not a result of chance, it was a result of evolution, so most likely, the reason why you say you don't understand is because you never took the time to understand.



      That is why religion is useless drivel.



      Okay, it's beyond you. It isn't beyond a lot of other people who took the time to understand it, though.

    2. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It's odd how Africans will complain about the horrible abuse that was inflicted by the colonial masters, yet choose to accept and worship the very same God that these white colonial masters taught them to.  I think that somewhat answers the question right there.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I have to be honest that is a very ignorant statement. There is difference between being a Christian (Christ follower) and being called Christian.

        The people that brought Christianity to Africa were good in a lot of ways. They cared and showed love. Mother Theresa was of a similar generation as those. Or do we forget so soon the love she showed to so many homeless. Or the works Christians do in the world.

        1. getitrite profile image82
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          With 40 thousand plus different denominations, it should be a mammoth task trying to figure out who the REAL Christians are.  Of course you are up for the task.



          They brought the same thing to America too..along with genocide and slavery.



          Christopher Hitchens doesn't seem to think Mother Theresa was a saint at all. In fact he thinks quite the opposite.  I think he makes quite a strong argument for his case.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I've read that she allowed people to die in a painful manner because she thought it would bring them closer to God. I seen a witness describe how she would refuse to bring a child to the hospital for a simple operation and instead allow the child to die. If it's true we've all been had, or at least I was.

          2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            How shocking that Christopher Hitchens a world known Atheist did not accept the good she did. When he himself has never been known to do any good. It is so much easier to point than to do. Her belief encouraged her to make a difference. I am not deluded to think she did not most likely make mistakes. She is after all in fact human but let that not take away anything from that which she did accomplish.

            Even the apostles of God made mistakes. There is not a single person in the entire bible except Jesus that did not make a mistake in one thing or another or face temptations. As long as we remain human we can be tempted and we can fail. Let one man in the entire world come and say that sin is not in him and I will show you a liar. It is not the mistakes she might have made we remember it is that which she got right. That which so many people today still lack the courage to attempt not to talk about achieve.

            1. Zelkiiro profile image83
              Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              "There is not a single person in the entire bible except Jesus that did not make a mistake in one thing or another or face temptations."

              So I'm guessing Lucifer appeared to him in the wilderness just to have a lively fireside chat?

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I wrote that correctly with the exception of facing temptation. I meant fall for temptation,

            2. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              There are mistakes and then there is deliberately letting a child die a painful death because you don't want to spring for a cab.

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Then spring for it yourself if you are so concerned. Stop pointing out others mistakes and work on your own. you act like a hypocrite.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I take my sick family member to doctors and hospitals when needed. I only comment on what has been reported, sometimes we need to look critically at institutions. Hypocritical? Do you think I haven't taken a child who need an operation to survive to the doctor or hospital?

  4. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    I would also like to add that if we look at the world today and look to its history. Where massacres were the order of the day, where senseless wars were fought (first and second world war) and brothers (like the tutsi and hutus) where mass genocide (leading to the deaths of over 20% f the entire population of rwanda) occurred because brothers forgot they were brothers when colonial masters divided them by height and nose size so they can govern them happened.

    A rational mind can only form two possible conclusions
    1) There is no God for such a thing to happen (Atheism)
    2) There is a disparity or a breakdown in relationship between man and God (which is what Christians believe)

    However the problem with the first explanation is that there is no solution there is the understanding that as there is no God and such no moral reference point then anything goes. This are beliefs held by someone the greatest dictators the world has every known like Napoleon, Hitler, Major General Sani Abacha and , Ghadaffi, Saddam Hussein. If God is not reverenced then a believer is no better than an atheist.

    With the second conclusion there is hope for mankind. If God rejoices in peace and mankind can regain their relationship with God then we will obey him. Jesus gave only two commandments.

    Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself and believe it or not America was founded by this two principles and today is only becoming a weaker power because it has departed from its first love.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, that is not what a rational mind would conclude.



      That is entirely false. Morals are not derived from gods, they evolve.



      And, then there were Holy Wars, Inquisitions and Witch burnings, all within the morality of Christianity.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "And, then there were Holy Wars, Inquisitions and Witch burnings, all within the morality of Christianity."

        These acts were not done by christians. There were done by people who did not know their God. Christians was not a name we gave ourselves but a name given to us by unbelievers because of who we were and how wer acted. I am willing to accept that a major amount of us deny God with our lives but acknowledge him with our lips but the bible says " I know my people and my people follow me".

        Jesus said Love your neighbour as yourself for this is the greatest commandment". He did not ask us to burn people so people who did so were not Christians.

        This is not true. Also morality itself is also relative. The idea that morality evolves is not accurate in full. I know cultures where it is moral to have a wife when she is 7 years old and I know in modern educated society it is not accepted.

        When I speak about morality I speak about a moral reference point. If there is no reference point then we are subject to the society we find ourselves in.  The same can be said about good and evil. In some cultures it is okay to marry more that one wife and in some a Man gives his wife to his guest for the night to entertain him. There is no moral line or ethical barrier when God is absent.

        It simply is whatever we feel is right that goes on and why not so. Afterall there is no one you need to be accountable to if that particular society allows it. This is why it was so hard to abolish slave trade. Society simply took it as the norm to own people. William Wilberforce about 180 years ago needed to remind people about God and even then it took a few more years to make owing slaves illegal.

        Society had forgotten God and its moral compass had been lost.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, they were committed by Christians who had every bit of authority to call themselves Christian, just as you would do.



          They would adamantly disagree with you.



          So what? That only shows a particular culture that follows misogyny, most likely because of their religious beliefs, which have stifled them from becoming an educated society.



          You are referring to religious societies. No moral reference point.



          Wrong, you are accountable to yourself and society.



          Yes, religious societies.



          That is only true in societies that deal in gods.

          1. 60
            abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            If you are so concerned about the children in Africa did you/do you have any intention of helping them yourself?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What does that have to do with God not doing anything for them?

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You lost me. The third most Christian nation in the world behind Vatican City and the 50 people of Pitcairn Islands is Greece with 99.7% Christianity. They have their problems. Christianity is no help.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Neither are Atheist. Atheist I have met are quicker to blame God for disaster and ignore. We pollute the air and atmosphere and its effects is dangerous weathers and we say it is God.

        We kill people in whatever name and we also blame God. When do we as people start to take responsibility for what we do.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, Atheists don't blame God for anything because we don't think there is a God to blame. It's the believers who don't take responsibility, they blame Satan and give credit to God.

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And what exactly should a believer take responcibility for?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              His actions. Don't you think you should take responsibility for your own actions?

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                And what actions have I done that needs me to be responcible for?

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Good ones, bad ones how the heck should I know. Some Christians thank God for everything they achieve and blame Satan for errors.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    In Christianity most of Jesus teaching was to bring consciousness back to the heart and take it away from just words and actions.  I hate religion and love God and Jesus. It is only of recent that they seem to be confused to be the same thing. Ever since the man can trace back people have committed many atrocities in the name of some deity or another. Be in God, Odin, Hades or Zeus. 

                    Religion has been responsible for a lot of terrible things and it has been because for some reason people have deemed themselves as judge over others.

                    God has not called me in this present life to be any bodies judge. I hate the sin but love the sinner. That is what my religion believes.

                    How can I not show mercy on people when I believe that my very life is possible by Gods mercy.

                    This is what Jesus teaches about mercy and judgement

                    Matthew 18:21-35
                    New International Version (NIV)
                    The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

                    21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

                    22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[a]

                    23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[b] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

                    26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

                    28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

                    29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

                    30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

                    32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

                    35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

  5. aparkhurst7 profile image85
    aparkhurst7posted 3 years ago

    If you go the Baptist route, they believed that humans have sinned therefore mankind has to suffer in some kind of way (hurricanes,death, etc,). This is what I learned from watching videos of the Westboro Baptist Church. I'm not generalizing the whole religion and there's a reason why the numbers in this church are shrinking.

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Answer to OP ...    I get around to at bottom of post.
           I don’t understand why people can not see the obvious.  Simple facts
            The old testament comes from the Hebrew religious texts. These were written by Hebrew prophets with messages to those Hebrew people. These messages and prophesy were given to those Hebrew people.  In the 1st century there was one basic religion having 4 or 5 different denominations.
           Point being that these prophesy were given to a nation of people that that nation became nonexistent around 135 to 138 AD.   
           Approx 40 years before that nation of people were scattered through out the rest of the world and that nation was erased off the face of the earth, St.John received visions that this would happen. The woman as seen in Rev. 12 is The Lords adulterous wife, the nation of Israel. She was carried away into the wilderness where she is fed for 1260 days and hides from the face of the serpent for a time and times and an half (1290 days).    1260 days in prophesy is equal to approx 1645 of our years.   
      Back to the point at hand.  In 96AD, John was told that “A NEW Religion” would soon rise up that counterfeits  the Established religion so well that it will fool even the very elect if that is possible. This religion will be given (from God) 42 months to blaspheme.  Again, 42 prophetic months is equal to approx 1645 years on earth.  Thankfully the two witnesses are also sent down to the earth for a equal amount of time and they infiltrated the “New Religions”      This explains why there is good and evil found within the church.
         
         There are many rightious people within the "New Church" who are doing all they can to feed the hungry all over the world while others are stealing from the poor.

    2. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Oouch... Im not Baptist, but I attended the Baptist church growing up many times over the years. That is not their teaching. The Westboro church is almost an entity unto itself.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, just like all the other 43,000 denominations of Christianity, entities unto themselves. lol

  6. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    When testing any theory two questions must be brought to mind to know if it is usable or acceptable. These two are fundamental principles of scientific reasoning.

    All these are based on Validity and reliability
    What is Reliability?

    The idea behind reliability is that any significant results must be more than a one-off finding and be inherently repeatable. Other researchers must be able to perform exactly the same experiment, under the same conditions and generate the same results.
    Without this replication of statistically significant results, the experiment and research have not fulfilled all of the requirements of testability.

    This prerequisite is essential to a hypothesis establishing itself as an accepted scientific truth.

    This means that the theory of evolution has failed already based on this. Honest answer required: Who has ever tested it and achieved the same result, bearing in mind that in origin of species evolution was a hypothesis adaptability was the theory (to simplify it).

    2) Validity:
    Validity encompasses the entire experimental concept and establishes whether the results obtained meet all of the requirements of the scientific research method.

    For example, there must have been randomization of the sample groups and appropriate care and diligence shown in the allocation of controls. This means this theory of evolution that explains all life around us must be represented and duplicated on various platform. Plants and Animals alike.

    Evolution has also failed in this area. This means that Science cannot safely conclude based on the nature of the fact that for pure sciences there has to be at least 99% confidence interval unlike social science where it is only 95% (which in it own right is also high).

    We believe in Jesus because He fulfilled over 300 prophecies. I have put some examples below but just so my point hits home the probability of someone fulfilling only 8 of those prophecies is 1 times 2.8 x 105 x 103 x 102 x 103 x 103 x 105 x 103 x 104) gives us 2.8 x 1028, or for simplicity sake 1 x 1028 or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Given this and the time span between the writings of the Old Testament and the fulfillment by Christ in the New Testament, the prophecies were either given to the prophets by God, or the prophets just wrote them down as they thought they should be. With Christ fulfilling all eight prophecies, what are the odds the prophets were just guessing?

    To illustrate this point: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and thoroughly stir the whole mass--all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar.

    Now please feel free to do that maths for 300 various prophecies. 

    I will give you 16 prophecies and try to put the time it was written also in it

    What are examples of some of the prophecies?
    1) Jesus will be begotten of God.
    Prophecy: Psalm (2,7): "The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son; this day I have begotten you’"
    Jeremiah 31:31-33 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    2) Jesus must be able to heal
    Isaiah 35:5-6  written: 712 BC (Before Christ)  - Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing. For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.
      3) Jesus must be born of a virgin:
    Isaiah 7:14 written: 712 BC (Before Christ) "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.   Word "Immanuel" means: God with us. In the Old Testament it occurs only in Isaiah. 7:14 and 8:8.
    4) his place of birth must be Bethlehem.
    Micah 5:2 written: 710 BC (Before Christ)
    "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    5) Going to Egypt:
    Hoseah 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."
    Matthew 2:14 "So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt."
    6) John the Baptist must prepare the way...
    Isaiah 40:3 written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
    "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
    7) Jesus must come from Galilee and teaches in Caparnum
    Isaiah 9:1-2 written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
    "Nevertheless, the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.  The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined."
    Matthew 4:12-16 "Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth he came and dwelt in  to Galilee. Leaving Nazareth, he went and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fuslfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."

    8) The Betrayer must give him up to Temple authorities after eating bread with Jesus
    Psalm 41:9 written: 1023 BC (Before Christ)
    "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
    9) The Betrayer  must give up Jesus to Temple authorities for 30 pieces of silver.
    Zechariah 11:12 written: 487 BC (Before Christ) "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for  my price thirty pieces of silver."
    10)False Witnesses must rise up
    Psalm 35:11 written: 1042 BC (Before Christ)  "False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
    11) His disciples will forsake him
    Zecheriah 13:7  - "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

    Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: `I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

    THE DEATH PREDICTIONS
    12) The mockery of the spectators...
    Psalm 109:25 written: 1023 BC (Before Christ) "I became a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads
    13) Being crucified.
    Psalm 22:16 written: 1018 BC (Before Christ) "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    14) He must be a suffering servant.
    Isaiah 53:5 (Suffering Servant Passage) written: 712 BC (Before Christ) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    15) Messiah will be Rejected in Israel:
    Isaiah 8:14 written: 742 BC (Before Christ)  "And he shall be a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

    OTHER PROPHECIES
    16) the silence before his judges...
    Isaiah 53:7 written: 712 BC (Before Christ).  "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."


    Also for all rational thinkers here. In science, not seeing something or feeling it does not mean it does not exist otherwise things like oxygen by that same logic do not exist. Just because A man was born blind does not mean colours and the sun does not exist. Do not limit your thinking to just your basic senses. It is foolish to think that way. 

    I appreciate an agnostic more than an Atheists because they are willing to accept that there might be chance they are wrong or right. They simply don't know. Afteral was there not a time the whole world was sure the earth was flat.

    The existence of God and the actions of God are two different things. When ancient discoverers like Christopher columbus found what is today known as America it would have been stupid of him to think he knows all about it. The same can be said about Charles Darwin when he was brought (he did not discover it) to Galapagos islands.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      But, you have not provided any honest answers to evolution, most likely because you don't understand evolution, but you will come here on these forums to start a thread complaining about the very thing you are now doing yourself.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This is what Rad man stated to be conclusive proof of evolution.

        1. The universal genetic code.
        2. The fossil record.
        3. Genetic commonalities.
        4. Common traits in embryos.
        5. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics.

        This was my reply.

        First of all let us discuss what you yourself seem not to understand

        Points 1 and 3: The universal genetic code and genetic commonalities. DNA which is a fundamental part of the genetic code is incomplete and not generalizable. Its research is incomplete and never will be because it is based on statistical probability of a representative sample of a tiny percentage of people in the world. (compared to the over 6 billion people) as it is impossible for science to ever get the DNA or the genetic coding of a significant percentage of the worlds population it will never be a strong theory and today it is even debunked in certain courts of law. (I just finished Jury duty so I know this to be a fact).

        2: Fossil records: In Darwin's own words, his original theory of macro-evolutionary progression didn't happen. Paleontology was a brand new scientific discipline in the mid-1800's, and now, roughly 150 years later, we know that the fossil record doesn't provide the support Darwin himself required.

        When evolution is rapid, transitional forms may not be preserved, even if fossils are laid down at regular intervals. We see many examples of this “quick” jumps pattern in the fossil record.

        Does a jump in the fossil record necessarily mean that evolution has happened in a “quick” jump?
        We expect to see a jump in the fossil record if evolution has occurred as a “quick” jump, but a jump in the fossil record can also be explained by irregular fossil preservation.

        Finally let me educate you on what you hold as the explanation to the start of life. It is important to also say I dint have time to add more to this but this should be sufficient.

        The word evolution (sometimes called Darwinism) has a variety of definitions, from simply “change” to “the natural process by which all life derived from a single ancestor,” and is referred to alternately as “hypothesis,” “theory,” “law,” and “fact.” Because of its imprecise nature, the term is often used ambiguously to imply that the processes we can observe in the present (e.g., natural selection) “prove” that the processes we cannot observe in the past must have happened as well (e.g., the change of dinosaurs into birds). In fact, the term evolution can also be used to denote the philosophy of naturalism, which depends upon unobserved events in the past (including in astronomy, chemistry, and geology).
        In scientific terms, evolution generally means the change in genetic material between generations, which is also referred to as “descent with modification.” These changes are attributed to mutations, gene flow and drift, and natural selection, which are examples of observational science and can be shown to occur. However, the other aspect of evolution is the belief that all animals descended from one original ancestor. Evolutionists sometimes claim this “fact” is established in the fossil record, homology (similar structures), and genetic evidence. However, any evidence involving historical science (one-time events that cannot be retested) is subject to interpretational bias on the part of the scientist.
        Mutations and genetic drift are often cited as the source of heritable traits from one generation to the next. While mutations do cause changes in the genome and genetic drift changes the frequency of those traits, neither process is capable of changing one kind of animal into another. More often, mutations have either no noticeable impact or cause degeneration.
        When evolutionary scientists claim that evolution is a fact, they are relying upon a fallacy known as “bait and switch” (define a term one way, but use it in a completely different way later). Often the claim is that since one can observe natural selection, then descent from a common ancestor must also be true. However, this presupposes that the current processes we observe could cause the origin of completely novel structures (e.g., giving rise to lungs or complex brains). Such a claim is contrary to information theory and the laws of nature..


        Now, you blame Christians for believing in something you term as fictional as a "fairy" yet you also hold unto something that has neither of the foundations of science which includes

        Reliability: The idea behind reliability is that any significant results must be more than a one-off finding and be inherently repeatable. Other researchers must be able to perform exactly the same experiment, under the same conditions and generate the same results.

        or Validity: Validity encompasses the entire experimental concept and establishes whether the results obtained meet all of the requirements of the scientific research method.

        For example, there must have been randomization of the sample groups and appropriate care and diligence shown in the allocation of controls. This means this theory of evolution that explains all life around us must be represented and duplicated on various platform. Plants and Animals alike.  (As mentioned earlier)

        I cannot change your mind as it is now clear to me that no matter what facts are before you , you will never accept that it is possible even a little chance you might be wrong. There is more to this earth that understanding only based on senses will not answer. It is foolish to think this way (Christian or Atheist) . As a matter of fact human kind will have reached no where if we ever thought this way.

        also can I

        Also after all of my explanations I live you with a few quotes on the theory of evolution.

        I have always been slightly suspicious of the theory of evolution because of its ability to account for any property of living beings (the long neck of the giraffe, for example). I have therefore tried to see whether biological discoveries over the last thirty years or so fit in with Darwin's theory. I do not think that they do.

        "To my mind, the theory does not stand up at all." —*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution, " Physics Bulletin 31 (1980), p. 138.

        "When the most learned evolutionists can give neither the how nor the why, the marvels seem to show that adaptation is inexplicable. This is a strange situation, only partly ascribable to the rather unscientific conviction that evidence will be found in the future. It is due to a psychological quirk." —*Norman Macbeth, Darwin Retried (1971), p. 77.

        "Evolution is baseless and quite incredible." —*Ambrose Flemming, President British Association for Advancement of Science, in The Unleashing of Evolutionary Thought.

        "Unfortunately, in the field of evolution most explanations are not good. As a matter of fact, they hardly qualify as explanations at all; they are suggestions, hunches, pipe dreams, hardly worthy of being called hypotheses." —*Norman Macbeth, Darwin Retried (1971), p. 147.

        "Nobody can imagine how nothing could turn into something. Nobody can get an inch nearer to it by explaining how something could turn into something else." —*G. K. Chesterton (1925).

        No real scientist worth their salt will ever hold this as "the gospel truth" (Pun intended).

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I certainly don't have the time nor the desire to comment on all that cutting and pasting however.

          The big bang doesn't propose that all this came from nothing, only religion does. Not to mention how ignorant it is to state what people can imagine. Anything is imaginable. Just because Chesterton could not imagine it doesn't mean nobody can imagine it, plus we don't have to imagine it came from nothing because that's not what the big bang proposes, that's the magic religion proposes.

          1. Zelkiiro profile image83
            Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Gotta love that Christian logic. "The Big Bang says everything came from a tiny particle? That's impossible! That's almost nothing at all!"

            And yet, those very same people would be extremely unwilling to allow a single ebola virus into their bloodstream. I mean, come on! It's just a tiny virus! That's almost nothing at all!

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              To make matters worse. The big bang says everything was contained in a tiny place, but they say nothing was there only God. We ask? Where did he come from? They respond. That's beyond what we can understand.

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The question of where did God come from is a nonsense question because of the definition of God.

                Go to you tube and watch a 5 min video by Ravi Zaccharias and Michael ramsden on what is Gods starting point or pretty much any of Ravi Zaccaharias videos. We are of similar minds on the issues you have. That is of course if you are actually seeking knowledge and not a place to argue.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Are you seeking knowledge? Are you willing to learn from these Atheists?

                  You state that something can't come from nothing, which is not what the theory of the Big Bang even says, and then say God has always and always will exist.

                  If you want to claim that God can come from nothing then you might want to rephrase your first statement because it's a contradiction.

                  1. lone77star profile image90
                    lone77starposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, Big Bang is an incomplete hypothesis. It doesn't state where the material and energy for the Bang came from. That lack implies either "nothing" or another "something." And where did that other "something" come from?

                    Every thing (effect) in the universe has a source (cause).

                    Now, God is not an "effect." He is pure "cause." There is no dichotomy in God as there is in the things of physical reality. This is more like the Buddhist "paramita" or "perfection." Like generosity without any spot of selfishness, or perfect confidence (faith) without any spot of doubt. These are the "one-sided coin" of creation. If you don't understand such a concept, don't worry. It takes a while to "grok" (understand fully).

                    No one can walk on water if they have imperfect (mortal) "belief," because that includes seeds of doubt.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I understand that all the nonsense you wrote here was lifted from this site...

          http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-ans … /evolution

          1. ChristopherJRex profile image93
            ChristopherJRexposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            A website written by scientifically illiterate people, so always a good reference to use, hah!!

            1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
              Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              and what qualifications make you or any other Atheist here scientifically literate. More importantly what is your counter proposal?

              Please answer the two questions and also stick to answering all the points I raised below.

              1. ChristopherJRex profile image93
                ChristopherJRexposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I am scientifically literate.  Here’s why: I have earned a Bachelor of Science in Zoology, Ecology, and Biochemistry (yes, you read that right…three B.S. degrees); I have a Master of Science in Biology (admittedly, not the thesis option, yet); I’ve given platform presentations at a few national conferences (with nothing but the utmost of praise); I have five years of research experience (2 years of epigenetics and 3 years of protein chemistry); I’ve spent two years teaching beginning and advanced-level college Biology courses; and I have authored three primary literature articles that are just about ready to be submitted (with me as the primary author), along with a book chapter (as the sole author; in a leading book in my field).  In addition, I have made it a personal goal to be a world expert in snake venom, seeking to excel in every way that would give me the leading edge, including possessing a great understanding of evolution.  Such an understanding would yield an explanation as to why we can see such a large degree of variation in snake venom composition in a variety of contexts.

                My counter proposal is this: learn about Evolution from scientifically literate people.  Until I get my own article fully prepared, take a look here: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01

                On the other hand, if you’d like to learn about the Big Bang or Abiogenesis, please refer to the following articles: http://christopherjrex.hubpages.com/hub … uire-Magic http://christopherjrex.hubpages.com/hub … uire-Magic

                My years researching Epigenetics revealed how histones (the proteins responsible for coiling up DNA into chromosomes, namely in preparation for cell replication) are incredibly evolutionarily-conserved.  Upon close examination and comparison of histone DNA sequences derived from vastly different species (from independent labs), I produced an evolutionary tree that was very reminiscent of our current state-of-the-art understanding of phylogenetic relationships.  Neither I, nor any of those researchers, were subject to some international “conspiracy” committee on publishing only those results which support Evolution.  At least 95% (fulfilling the requirement for scientific significance) of results are self-evident in supporting a natural, “Earth-bound,” hypothesis for life (or the evolution, thereof).  Just as testing the DNA of your parents indicates that you are their offspring, we humans are undeniably indicated in being the “offspring” of prokaryotic organisms from billions of years ago.

                Here’s a good piece of advice: don’t quote “opinions” from non-evolutionary Biologists (especially those before the modern age of genetic technology)…it makes you look like a fool.  You might as well ask an artist for an opinion on how to maintenance a diesel engine…

                I understand statistics….very well, in fact (as I’ve used it extensively in the past five years preparing my manuscripts).  There is a significantly high statistical probabilility that life can evolve from simple compounds as a result of simple “randomness” in the early stages of Earth’s history.  There is also a significantly high statistical probability that the big bang could arise from “nothing” (quantum fluctuations, followed by inflation).  There is not, however, a significant statistical probability that any supernatural power, or “god,” exists.  This is evidenced by the unbiased observation of things that are “untouched” by humans (such as radio-carbon rock dating, fossil record, geological columns, astrophysics, and DNA; not things such as the Christian Bible). 

                If we were to burn/destroy all copies of the Bible, would we be able to reconstruct Christianity in its current form?  No, of course not.  If we were to burn/destroy all implements of scientific progress, would we be able to reconstruct them?  Yes, absolutely!  This is the critical difference between fiction and facts.

                You talk of how you were “healed by God,” but were you ever analyzed by medical/scientific personnel?  No, of course not.  Funny enough, every single example of a “miracle” that has been thoroughly researched by the medical/scientific realm has revealed no evidence for a “supernatural” cause.  Therefore, your argument has no scientific bounds.  Science is able to be repeatably tested (holding up to examination from multiple, different points of view using separate lines of data gathered from scientists all over the world), whereas Religion is not (and is frequently based on “heresay” and “myths” from a single “publication”).  What about prayers?  Their effectiveness has been found to be no greater than that of a placebo (sugar pill): http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ … 1838.short 

                Why do humans insist on having religion or believing in a “god?”  The human brain is pre-disposed for such a line of thinking:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22256685 

                Please read “Scientific Creationism” by Henry Morris…you’ll gain a much better appreciation for all of the claims “supposedly” supported by Christianity back in 1974 (a vast majority of which have been debunked by scientific advancements since then, but are still upheld by certain conservative Christian groups, including “answersingenesis.org”).

  7. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Not one Atheist here actually understands science and you all speak with some authority.

    You have asked for my credentials and masters degrees.

    What are yours? What makes you "some kind of genius" on the the subject that we should consider your 2 cents worth?

    If you raise a question you must be able to back it up also and so far most of you dont seem to have more than a basic Undergraduate degree if any at all.

    What is with all the double standard here?

    Like I said I dont think you need a degree to understand God but unfortunately for most of science you do.

    When will people start to answer questions with factual statements and stop giving me your opinions. My beliefs are based on history, personal experience and empirical evidence.
    Address this.

    Your replies are based on feelings and  not knowings as you all claim.

    You do not know anything about evolution.

    You show no understanding of the human condition.

    You show no understanding of the origin or reason why we believe

    No appreciation for the statistical improbability for the fact Jesus could not have been anything short of the son of God. (if he fulfil only 8 prophecies out of the ones written about him. If these estimates are considered fair, one man in how many men, the world over, will fulfill all eight prophecies? Let’s run the math. We have 1 in 2.8 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 100 X 1,000 X 1,000 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 10,000. This gives us 1 in 2.8 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Let us simplify it by calling it 1 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Written out we have 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000). Keeping in mind he fulfilled over 300 prophecies. I even gave examples of 16 fulfilled prophecies.

    Please note that just fulfilling 8 alone  means 1 in more than the number of people alive today by several folds. Please dont be ignorant and say that is chance especially as mentioned above he completed over 300.

    Can you debunk person experience? I explained how I got healed, how I saw the blind see and the lame walk. How dare you even try. Thousands of miracles God does every year. People come forward and give testimonies yet as I can imagine you will only focus on the false claims. Even when you feel a claim is false and it is foolish of you to assume so when you honestly have never checked or met someone who had been healed. It is like focusing on the ant in the room when there is an elephant in the room.

    You speak about children in Africa. This is the worst thing you can do as a human especially when you do absolutely nothing for them and most of the world doesnt. You speak as if you have some bleeding heart or moral compass when not a single one of you do. Is racism not still alive and well in the world today?

    Christianity teaches you that all men are made equal as God is not a respecter of persons. Racism is not a Christian ideology. It is an Atheist one. When God fails to exist then anything that society allows goes. As long as it is legal to do so who cares. That is what I mean when I talk about a lack of moral compass.

    The charities you give to have so much admin costs that nothing substantial gets to the end person and very often is embezzled.
    Have you never wondered why after so many years of donations Africa doesnt seem to have changed much. You all have a or seem to have some grand sense of intellect yet you show nothing to support it asides childish attacks and meaningless rants about another person which now appears more like a tactic to differ and ignore everything else. As mentioned earlier, Africa is the most blessed continent in the world. God blessed Africa, people stole its resources and used it for themselves. I am convinced that the richest man in the world is African but he can never be declared so as his wealth was gotten through fraud and mass corruption. The person I am speaking about actually had new notes printed straight for him.

    You talked above lovelessness in Christianity I explained exactly what God says Love is and what he expects from us, simply put "love your neighbour as yourself". This means everyone around you. He also teaches

    Ephesians 4:32 ESV /

    Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

    Colossians 3:13 ESV

    Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

    Ephesians 4:31 ESV

    Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

    Mark 11:25 ESV

    And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

    Luke 6:37 ESV /

    “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

    1 Peter 3:9 ESV

    Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

    Proverbs 15:1 ESV

    A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

    Proverbs 15:18 ESV

    A hot-tempered man stirs up strife, but he who is slow to anger quiets contention.

    Ephesians 4:26-27 ESV

    Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.

    1 John 1:9 ESV

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Luke 6:27 ESV

    “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

    Matthew 5:44 ESV

    But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

    Proverbs 31:26 ESV

    She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

    Colossians 3:21 ESV

    Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.


    Deuteronomy 6:6-7 ESV

    And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

    Exodus 34:7 ESV

    Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

    Ephesians 6:4 ESV

    Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.


    At what point will you address this and stop the smallness. Please address your own credentials and the topics. I put forward your own challenge back to you.

    This is the first part of what I want addressed by you so called atheist. Next I will post I will explain why I do not believe nor hold some parts of science as true.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Your credentials have been exposed, you get your information from Christian websites like answersingenesis.org from where you copy and pasted all that garbage. Those are your credentials.



      Sorry, but history and empirical evidence don't agree with you.



      Says the believer who copies and pastes from Christian websites. lol



      You never did "run the math' you merely lifted that garbage from this site...

      http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-odd … ming-true/

      lol



      You fabricated nonsense based on your beliefs. That was obvious. We are not kindergarten children whom you believe you can just pull the wool over our eyes.

  8. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Let me start by saying I agree that
    1)Religion can be good when it brings us closer to the truth.
    2)Science too can be good when it brings us closer to the truth.

    I will use abbreviates to give the statements here some order
    SB: Science believed
    SNS: Science NOW shows
    TBAS: The bible always said

    SB:Only between one thousand and twelve hundred stars in the whole universe.   
    SNS: Trillions upon trillions of stars; they cannot be counted by man!   
    TBAS: Jeremiah 33:22a "As the host of heaven cannot be numbered..."


    SB: The Earth is flat.   
    SNS: The Earth is round.
    TBAS:Isaiah 40:22a "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth..."

    SB: Light does not move, it is just there.    
    SNS:Light moves - and has physical properties; "light waves" or photons.   
    TBAS:Job 38:19a "Where is the way where light dwells? ..."

    SB: The Steady State Theory, the stars are just out there.   
    SNS: Each star is unique, and two of the star constellations have gravitational binding.   
    TBASJob 38:31 "Can you bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"

    SB: Bad blood should be bled out, to make a person well.   
    SNS: Blood is vital to life, sometimes a  transfusion is needed  to add blood.   
    TBAS: Leviticus 17:11a "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:..."

    SB: Air has no weight, it is just there.   
    SNS:Oxygen, nitrogen, carbon-dioxide have respective atomic weights that can be measured.   
    TBAS: Job 28:25a "To make the weight for the winds..."

    SB: Winds blow straight across the Earth.   
    SNS: Air currents move in large circular patterns.   
    TBAS: Ecclesiastes 1:6b "... and the wind returns again according to his circuits."
    The Earth is carried on someone's back.    The Earth floats free in space.    Job 26:7b "... and hangs the earth upon nothing."

    SB: People just get sick; hand washing is not important.   
    SNS: Many diseases spread by contact; wash your hands in running water.   
    TBAS: Leviticus 15:13b "... and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water..."

    SB:The stars are all similar to each other.   
    SNS: Each and every star is actually unique.   
    TBAS:I Corinthians 15:41b "...for one star differs from another star in glory."

    I guess the ARGUMENT for you is

    SB: Something from nothing for no reason - "The Big Bang" model - poof, look a universe!   
    but SNS: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction; that is real science.  Cause and effect; input is needed to make output.   
    TBAS: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    It has taken several hundreds of years of research for the science to ultimately come around and prove what the bible always said. This is why we hold the bible. There are so many other things but this will do for now.

    Please stick to the topic and address this also.

  9. taburkett profile image61
    taburkettposted 3 years ago

    the answer:  Because man is a sinner.
    Many children learn from their parents and other leaders to support only the corrupt desires of man.
    But, those who choose to follow Christian teachings learn to support the needs of everyone.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Old world curses of mythical babble do not explain nor offer solutions to real world problems.



      Many children are inundated with talk of bronze age curses of mythical proportion, thus they ignore the requirements to find real solutions to real world problems and instead accepting our lot in life based on old world ignorance and fear, effectively limiting ones activities to focus entirely on the idleness of wishful thinking, or prayer, as its more commonly known.

    2. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Oh yeah. You should tell that to world leaders.  I'm sure that would nip the problem right in the bud. LOL

  10. teacherjoe52 profile image57
    teacherjoe52posted 3 years ago

    Instead of cry babying about how everything is whities fault why don't you people concentrate on improving your own lives.
    When the white man was there your continent was a food exporting nation. Now that you have kicked the white man out your continent has gone down the toilet.
    It is interesting that the Chinese are now doing to you what the white man once did.
    You know I have been in a few sermons where you Africans have told us whities we were not Christians because we were not black and not from Africa. Do you people understand what racism is?
    Do you understand the meaning of "Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep in Africa" (that was said by a black African preacher)?
    Why don't you stop playing the victim and start being men and taking control of your own destinies?
    Do you know almost all the African here have no visa and deal drugs? They only want a woman for sex. Then they walk around with the Bibles and tell us whities how they are Christians and we are not.
    I have never met as big hypocrisy as what I see in you  blacks, it does not matter what country or continent you are on

    1. Zelkiiro profile image83
      Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have no words to describe how I feel right now, so it's a good thing I have a picture to help me out, instead:

      http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll145/Zelkiiro/Forum%20Junk/MisatoFacepalm.jpg

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Face to palm.

    2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You my friend are an idiot beyond belief.

      Africa is the Mother of Humanity. Africa is the cradle of the first human civilisation. The First Renaissance on this planet was the African Renaissance. Africa was “the first world” economically and technologically NOT the “third world” of paupers robbed of their lands and riches. Our ancestors built the pyramids which even in this 21st century no one can reproduce. Egyptian civilisation was a Black civilisation. The pharaohs were Black people. That is why that great African Egyptologist, Prof. Cheikh Anta Diop has written:

      “The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and will not be written correctly until African historians dare connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian, who evades this, is neither modest nor objective or unruffled; he is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic.”

      The Zimbabwe Buildings that Africans built have been attributed to “foreigners” who vanished into thin air and cannot be found! The stubborn historical fact, however, is that these magnificent buildings were designed by Zimbabweans.

      The Azanian civilisation which stretched from Eastern Africa to our country is a historical fact. The people of Azania whose country colonialists called “South Africa” through the British imperialist Union of South Africa Act 1909; mined gold and copper in Mapungubwe as early as the 9th century. That was centuries before Jan van Riebeeck arrived in Azania on 6th April 1652. He and the other settlers brought no land here on their ships. Our ancestors fed them and housed them. They knew not the intentions of these pale strangers.

      Read up on the effects on Africa.

    3. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I am still so pissed at the ignorant racist comment made. You are a shame to Christianity and Humanity. I am sure even Atheists here will agree.

      Blacks are the only racial group that still show love to Whites after years of racism and colonialism.

      We were made to sit at the back of the bus, no rights to votes, our natural resources exploited.  I dont think any Atheist here agrees with anything you said. Not even the hardest Atheist.

      You are a disgrace to your race and thankfully I have met a lot of Good Whites so I can safely say you are a spoilt apple amongst a group of good.

      This is what you do not understand

      A long lasting impact of colonialism in Africa is racial oppression, most markedly obvious in the South African system of apartheid, just recently ended. In fact, "the worst legacy of the European presence was the White racist state of modern South Africa, which only ended in 1994" (Craig, Graham, Kagan, Ozment & Turner, 2007, p. 690). Apartheid was a legal racial segregation system in South Africa based on traditional tribes. South Africans were segregated based on race, and native blacks were excluded from citizenship and forced, literally, to live on government appropriated lands based on tribe. Whites were given superior education, housing, jobs, and medical care ("South Africa Under Apartheid", 2009). The system was completely illogical, with ten percent of the population attempting to control the other ninety percent, but that thought process is purely colonial in its roots (Blundell, 2004). The former ruling class of the colonial era (whites with European ancestry) believed they were justified in oppressing several native tribal populations, and exploiting them for personal gain.

      Widespread poverty and unequal distribution of wealth in another long lasting impact of 17th through 20th century colonialism in Africa. Essentially, colonialism forced the continent into (what was then) modern agricultural and industrial capitalism. African nations were forced to produce mono-crops or to mine precious metals or diamonds, all of which would be sold overseas. In essence, native Africans had to "produce what they don't consume and consume what they don't produce" in order to enrich the home country, which was a typical European colonial economic practice (Oku, 2009). Colonized African nations would produce for their respective colonial powers, then be expected to consume products imported from those nations. Non- native whites profited richly from this economic system and native black populations remained in poverty. Any opportunity for developing the nation itself in preparation for industrialization or improvement was ignored; moreover, colonial racism prohibited the educating of the precious natural resource of native human potential. Tribal populations did manual labor for the colonial powers, and generations of ideas and economic potential were lost. Sadly, after independence, little has changed in the economic systems of Africa (Oku 2009).

      Native ethnic tension and violence due to colonialism exists because of poorly drawn international boundaries. When the European arbitrarily divided Africa amongst themselves, it was with little to no concern that native tribes and language groups were being separated into different colonial settlements, which sometimes contained enemy groups (Oku, 2009). After the countries gained their independence in the mid 1950's, the arbitrary national boundaries remained severely ethnically fragmented. Colonialism also resulted in ethnic violence by introducing the concept of social hierarchy. A current example of these long lasting effects in the present day is the well known conflict between the Tutsi and Hutu tribes in Rwanda, which was created and eventually exacerbated by colonialism. The conflict between these two tribes has been violent, and some have labelled it a genocide. Before European rule, the tribes were not in a submission- dominance situation, but colonial powers gave preferential treatment socially and economically to the Tutsi people, whom they deemed more intelligent (Sebahara, 1998). This system was taught in schools and established in society for the entire period of colonization. Years of oppression, injustice, and eventually genocide would follow.

      Racism, poverty, and ethnic violence are the most prominent impact colonialism had on the continent of Africa. Of course, the European influence was not entirely without benefit; indeed, colonialism introduced modern education systems, medicine, and infrastructures such as roads and electricity to Africa. However, it can be assumed that without colonial interference, the continent would have developed its own unique education system, medical treatment, and systems of government much more suited to the culture of individual ethnic groups. Perhaps a unified continent without strife or racial tension could have developed, with a strong economy and peaceful government. Now that Africa has its independence, the long journey toward healing begins.

      Most African countries are under 100 years old. We have a country like Nigeria with over 521 distinct languages. People who are so different and should never have been joined together by their colonial masters. We have the Igbos there also that showed the truest form of democracy.

      I THINK I JUST BLEW A GASKET WITH SUCH STUPIDITY. WHAT AN UNEDUCATED DRIBBLE. YOU SHOULD PROBABLY NOT HAVE DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Don't let them bother you. Don't even waist your time typing. It's an embarrassment to the entire human race.

    4. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What stupid logic "Do you understand the meaning of "Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep in Africa" (that was said by a black African preacher)?"

      Hitler Killed Millions, Napoleon Killed Millions. Does that mean that whites are evil. No it meant 2 men (White, black, Hispanic or other wise) were bad.

      You are the very reason why the world seems to hate Christianity today a Hypocrite in the full meaning of it.

      My Atheist friends here. Please note this is not what we believe as Christians. It is stupid thinking like this that started the burnings and more atrocities in the past.

      This is not the Christian way nor does it represent our belief in loving our neighbour.

      What Zoo did you escape from?

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm as embarrassed by my fellow human as you are. Please don't pay him any attention.

    5. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this
  11. waynet profile image45
    waynetposted 3 years ago

    Why are there new children still being born in Africa for them to starve? should be the most important question. God is irrelevant...the sooner God becomes the centre of reasoning is when everything goes to poop!

    1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Do you understand poverty at all? There is a direct correlation with poverty and child birth. Poor people cannot afford other luxuries so they then to do more of the cheaper options like sex.

      If poverty is cause by unequal distribution of wealth due to embezzlement and corruption in an otherwise very wealthy country.   What does God have to do with that?

      If God has given you wealth is it his fault you decide to use it do do drugs, pay for prostitutes and essentially make yourself broke in 2 years whose fault is this. Is this God or the person?

      This is the same for most of Africa. SO much has been taken from Africa.  The story of Africa is that of a woman that has been rapped for centuries and then a few years later the same people that rapped her ask why why is she not okay? wasn't the rape just a few years ago? How dare she complain?

      Africa as a whole has had more years under colonial rule than it has had freedom by a significant amount. Most of Africa especially western Africa did not get independence until 1960 there about. This is not long ago. Some dint even get independence until 1980's. Even Eritrea was 1993.

      You Americans really need to know that there is a world away from America.

      look at

      http://www.japanafricanet.com/directory … dence.html

      for the dates African nations got independence.

      You should be ashamed for what you said. What about racism? Do you really believe racism is dead? African still having bananas thrown at them in Europe or people getting monkey shouts. What about the level of hate crime. Even look at sports today especially things like football in Europe. Do you think if slave trade did not happen we would be where we are?

      By the way does any other Atheist here support this silly statements?

      1. waynet profile image45
        waynetposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This isn't really a silly statement. We should be shipping Condoms and other contraception over there by the skip load together with food, wait a few years and together with the instructions on how to use a condoms/contraception they can make up their own minds about whether they can afford to feed their own children....God doesn't exist, of course it's up to others to help out if they can afford it and that means people power and all that, but the fact of the matter God is still irrelevant in this situation that has happened through no fault of the African people....Of course throwing never ending food parcels over there is just a temporary solution, they have to think about the bigger picture and that's what I was getting at!! Ways to tackle the problem rather than let it go into the wind!

        Simple logic!

        It's easy just to say oh...why are there starving African kids...oh if there is a God....oh Geee....easy to think in 2D...better to think in 3D

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Uncalled for.

    3. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this
  12. lone77star profile image90
    lone77starposted 3 years ago

    Why do children still starve if there is a God? Why is there any injustice or tragedy?

    Why did God see fit to bring Noah's Flood? And how could that be an act of love?

    Well, it's all an act of God's love, because God loves His children and God is not Homo sapiens! Let that last phrase sink in for a minute. People look at the tragedy of human bodies and completely miss "seeing" God's children. They keep looking at the physical and miss the spiritual. And Jesus said that we need to be reborn, not of the flesh, but of the spirit.

    Check out one of my "book trailers," Identity Crisis:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDDUpGrevN4

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You are spamming these forums shamelessly plugging your ridiculous book. Please stop immediately.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think he's using Headly's ideas.

    2. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Don't let him/her get to you, he/she woke up on the wrong side of the crib and never really recovered.

    3. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry dude, but that's just snake oil.

  13. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    I have a general question for all atheists here and this is just so I can get some clarity on it.

    Is the reason for dis-belief in God only based on the 5 capital sense (taste, touch, sight, hearing, smell) or is there more?

    1. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      This would be a good forum topic

  14. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    A Troubled Man posted
    There are many gods to choose from, not just one. Why did you choose that one instead of one of the others? Perhaps, none of them were offered to you? Perhaps, you choose the wrong god?

    Your father is a human and is not of this discussion whatsoever, we are talking about an evil megalomaniac who happens to be completely invisible.

    This happens to just be your own opinion and to be honest the question of why did I chose this one is a brand new discussion.

    It would be better if you actually directed a question. Which one would you like me to answer?

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The ones you avoided. smile

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hi sorry I have not been able to reply this post for a while. I was dealing with another issue.

        I wont bore you too much. Feel free to review this hub by another hubber that gives some of the reasons why we claim to "know" that God is real and the bible true.

        I think its an objective write so you do the judgement on it.

        http://spease.hubpages.com/hub/The-science-of-the-Bible

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Nothing but lies and fabrications. Complete garbage.

        2. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, I've read it.  And when I left my comments refuting the claims, my comments mysteriously disappeared.  Its easy to appear wise when you don't allow the other side to even answer your claims

        3. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Didn't you say you were well educated? Any educated person knows nothing is laid out like a tent above us and a circle is not a sphere and the earth is not suspending in space. Need I go on?

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ok. now that I have the anticipated reaction I was expecting. I have to ask. What exactly is your own reservations? I mean I had mine for a long time to be honest and I know what eventually pushed me over the edge.

            I dont want to assume anything about anyone. So educate me.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Reservations regarding what? The nonsense of that hub? If that's what your talking about I've already given you three of the top of my head. I don't want to waste another click on that.

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No at all not that hub. I meant why do you feel God does not exist?

                On this three levels

                On personal/ experiential level?
                An intellectual level ?
                A spiritual level?

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  There is no evidence besides the writing of some ancient people who clearly had underdeveloped ethics and were attempting to motivate their people. Many people claim to talk and interact with God but nobody can support their claim. All the holy books are deeply flawed and none show any evidence that the writers had knowledge before their time. People generally stay within the faith they were raised in, so it's very likely that you would be a muslim if your were raised by muslims. Meaning your perception of God would be different.

                  Promoting that hub as evidence is an example of some critical thinking issues that have effected your faith.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Nothing, nada, zilch.



                  Think, reasoning, logic, evidence, facts.



                  Nothing of the sort has ever been shown to exist.

                3. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Personal experience can be totally SUBJECTIVE....especially when the person, who claims to have had an experience with a god, cannot show ANY OBJECTIVE evidence to the rest of us.  Your FEELINGS don't count.



                  It doesn't appear to be very intelligent to believe that things exists merely because someone tells you that those things exist.  That's a sure fire way to get taken by ANY and EVERY con artist out there. If you lived the rest of your life that way, everyone would be able to out-smart you.



                  You haven't proven that there is a spiritual level.  Until you do, this is completely irrelevant.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Are you too lazy to educate yourself?

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Now that it seems to all boil down to "objective evidence".

                The question is then raised. What do you term objective evidence?

                I think it is important to point out that there will never be a time in which it will be beyond any doubt at all as I cannot physically take you to heaven and show you it exists so I all I can do is point to faith with some knowledge.

                Has anyone one of you ever read the bible?

                Like I said earlier I know why I believe. It was a rough road made up of education, loads of questions and then some faith and trust in more than myself.

                I know that no one could convince me by just words so I ask these questions not out of laziness but to understand.

                I cannot explain what I do not understand. Would it not be foolish of me not to know the full story?

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Look critically at your religious views and that hub you pointed to. You obviously didn't look at it critically or you wouldn't have pointed us to it. There is nothing accurate about the description of the formation earth of the earth or the universe in any of the holy books. You'd think it's dimensions and shape would have been given. Instead we have the description of a stationary earth and a description of the sky as a tent.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    To be honest I posted it here to invoke a genuine reaction and I am happy with what your replies were.

                2. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I have read the Bible more times than I can count in multiple languages, and each time I read it, it makes me feel just a little bit more disgusted by it and incredulous that people in this day and age still believe it to be true like I used to.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    What part of the bible disgusts you?

                3. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So sorry to have to inform you that I don't make up terms, especially ones already defined. Do you not have access to a dictionary?



                  You have no idea if heaven exists, no one does. It is probably a myth.



                  Yes, we read books. And, not just one.



                  Education usually leads one away from believing in myths and superstitions, not the other way round.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    "
                    "Education usually leads one away from believing in myths and superstitions, not the other way round"

                    You will find this to be untrue. Think of the giant squid that was just a myth until not too long ago.

                  2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Have you watched the video link I posted. I mean if you are genuinely looking for truth the give it a shot. What do you have to lose?

  15. SwordofManticorE profile image73
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Athiests are under the belief that God allows children in Africa to starve and does nothing about it. He has done something about it. He created YOU to do something about it.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists are not under the belief that God allows anything as we don't believe in God at all. Not angry with him, just don't believe in him. We just can't understand why one would claim that a loving, powerful, prayer answering, all knowing, forgiving God would allow children to die?

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Fine, then don't praise your god for things you did or someone else did themselves.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        He thinks we are angry at God for being powerless, but thinks God's powerful but impotent and most likely thanks him for Sunday dinner.

      2. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The more people operate in principle, the less they need miracles

    3. SwordofManticorE profile image73
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Have any of you ever asked a Christian "If God is real, why does he allow children to starve"?

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Ahhhh. Yes. many, many times.

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
          SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          My point exactly!

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And we continue to ask because we don't get a reasonable answer.

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
              SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Is there any reasoning with atheists when it comes to God?

            2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
              Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Children in Africa starve because their leader steal their wealth and rob from them. Africa itself is rich in oil, food, livestock, raw materials, gold and diamonds. Is that not riches from God?

              Now we have leaders that rub you directly. Not even in part or hidden. This is the wickedness of man and very often the leaders are repaid with horrible death and they die before their time eg Sani Abacha, Idi Amin, Gadhafi and so many more.

              Africa is corrupt, God has provided more than enough resources for the continent. People have stolen it. Even in the bible this happened quite a lot.

              We must remember that just as God has given every man free will, he will not deny us the consequences of our choices.

              Africa today is a consequence of man made choices and not God.

              If I gave you a million dollars (God) and you chose to use it on drugs, prostitutes and much more rubbish (man) and you are broke in 2 weeks and poor again (consequences)? Whose fault is it?

              Is it the giver of wealth or the user of wealth when the person is poor?

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        And, we always get the same lame, contradictory fabrications, similar to this one...

        "Children in Africa starve because their leader steal their wealth and rob from them."

        And, the many who continue to spout it each time they appear here are shown that's not true, but they harp on continuously using the same lame, contradictory fabrication, then they thank their god for finding their car keys.

        1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
          Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I  am from Africa and I have seen corruption destroy a village first hand. The chief in the village having 15 cars with houses abroad worth millions of dollars. This is infact a very true statement.

          1. getitrite profile image82
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And how silly is it that your all powerful God can't even stop these mere human beings from preventing His will from being done?  But He can surely cure your asthma, right?  These absurd beliefs are completely bogus.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So what? That doesn't account even remotely for the tens of thousands that die every day, not only in Africa, but around the world in countries that have absolutely no chief in their villages with 15 cars.

        2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
          Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I mean read about Sani Abacha and how much was stolen. Over 5 billion dollars stolen (from one country alone) and the Abacha family till date even after recovering so much ill gotten wealth are still  one of the richest families in the world today.

          1. getitrite profile image82
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And Sani Abacha does all of this evil while your powerless God just sits and watches.  What a useless character.  Oh, but He springs into action when it comes to curing your asthma.  This is psychotic.

            Your God is all powerful and powerless at the same time.....and completely ridiculous.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So what? He was a believer, a Muslim, who was buried in traditional Muslim style, despite the atrocities and human rights violations he committed. Africa is full of believers, Muslims in the north and Christians in the south.

            However, Nigeria at the time back in the early 90's were doing much better than they are now with feeding their people. Your point is absolutely moot, dude.

          3. SwordofManticorE profile image73
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Daniel, never answer a heathen's question if you know they are just going to mock your answer. You cannot expect to find warmth from what is cold (without God).

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What a soothing kind warm thing to say.

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you soo much.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes Daniel, listen to the other believers who will do all they can to alienate and divide mankind, treating others as their enemies. Well done.

            3. getitrite profile image82
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              So now asserting a logical and rational response is mocking?  Could you show where this mocking occurred?  Thank you

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                When you tell people that their beliefs are lame and rediculas, it is mocking their belief. All you want to do is create divission. There is nothing productive when I read your posts.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You're mistaking helping for mocking. Attempting to show and explain the delusions is helping not mocking. Do you tell you're schizophrenic fellow human that the person they are talking to doesn't exist?

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You say you are helping. Do you extend the courtesy to allow yourself to be helped also?

                  2. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Rad Man, I never asked for your help, nor do I need it.

                2. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Nobody is mocking you.  Pointing out the foolishness of your assertions is not mocking.  That's called debating. 


                  That's outright defamation.  You have no evidence that shows any proof of that statement.  Just in case you don't understand, I'm merely debating.  Do you understand the rules of debate?  I'm not here to agree with everything that you say.  That's would not be a debate.  That's pampering.


                  There is nothing productive because you refuse to listen to reason.  Therefore the communication problem is definitely on your end. 

                  In order to keep these silly beliefs, you continue to evade reason at all cost, while pretending to be intellectually and morally superior.  How utterly absurd.  You won't answer my questions because your argument stands no chance of winning.  Why?  Because your beliefs are just lies, which you MUST support to keep the psychotic beliefs intact.  How disturbing.
                  Please stop trying to assassinate my character.  Thanks

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Let us get something straight right now. I dont debate God with atheists. When you call a belief foolish, you insult the one who believes by indirectly calling him a fool.

  16. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Ok then, It appears we are finally moving forward.

    Now that we are in some agreement of the way to learn we must first of all put down are pre supposed notions based on feelings at the door in other to have an objective view.

    What I am simply saying is, If I took on a research to see if people suffering from violent psychotic episodes could be integrated successfully back into society (null hypothesis) but I had unfortunately had an experience in which my grand mother whom I loved had been violently raped and killed by my representative subjects my research will always have experimental bias in it and as such a predictable outcome.

    Objectivity can only be reached when we are really asking. I believe genuine atheist (not experiential atheists, i.e as a result of some sad thing that happened to them) are in a good position to be objective if their main motivation was to see if there was a "genuine possibility/probability". 

    I would like to point out that probability is the likelihood of something occurring, so for the sake of this particular conversation possibility and probability are in fact inter changeable.

    I feel that if you are seeking knowledge and not a chance to argue then I ask to listen to this video, even if it ends up being purely for your entertainment and to understand Christianity and our thinking better.

    You have made several requests from Christians and now we are trying answer. My belief and reasoning is long to write down here. This talk addressed three very important things. Things I believe Atheists have often asked of us

    a) The intense philosophical problems that arise from the denial of Gods existence.
    b) How then do we demonstrate Gods existence
    c) Why is the christian faith unique in representing this particular notion of a God?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIw6ngIqaD0

    So we can have an educative conversation I would also like to plead with the Christians here to listen to the video as well.  We cannot argue with someone and say "you must believe in me or take the highway". We have a duty to explain as best as we can without prejudice just as they have a duty to respect a person for who they are (this includes race, sex, age and belief).

    1. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      When I get a chance, I will certainly rake a look at it. As we continue to further this conversation, Please keep in mind that I am a Christian, Getit was a Christian (and as such I am sure he knows the word, and JM not only was a Christian, but also is a scholar in the subject with degrees.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thats fine. Just as with any discipline we will still differ on the main subject and our expertise will also differ as well as levels of understanding. This is human nature. So it is fine and okay.

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Amen. I agree. Just wanted to remind you so that we can enter this conversation with a clear understanding of each other and the fact that we all have some biblical learning and understanding. This way there aren't too many preconceived notions

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry The correct link is , my mistake


            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTVOufIzyPY

    2. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I don't understand.  Why did you show us a video about some preacher, and his view on homosexuality?   Where are you going with this?  So far this has made absolutely no sense to me.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        My deepest and most sincere apologies, This is the right link.. I think I deserve a pie in the face for that mistake.

      2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this
        1. getitrite profile image82
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          So it took awhile, but I watched the video, which is about an hour long.  I can see where he makes many good points about the origin of the Big Bang and the Singularity, but to conclude that this makes a stronger case for your argument is just flat out false.  And this preacher cannot be trusted to discern logic, since he basically asserts that since there are things unknown to science, there must be a God. You have to watch for tricks like that.  This preacher can't use conjecture as a conclusion. 

          You need to put your critical thinking skills to use, instead of trying so hard to believe every word this deluded minister utters.  His credibility suffers even more, as he concludes that the Christian God is the God that fills the gaps left open by science.  Mere whimsical wishful thinking....that a fairy tale is somehow true.  He only uses science to trick the unlearned and indoctrinated into reinforcing this mental psychosis called Christianity.  He doesn't care anything about actually finding out who God might actually be....if there is one....  His ultimate aim is to promote his hateful fundamentalist religious views as the truth...which it is not.

          He is either a raging psychotic, or a brilliant actor and charlatan, imposing his nonsense on the minds of the weak and fearful.  It is clear that he is a highly educated and great orator, but he has done nothing to convince me that his position is any more valid than before I watched this.  In fact, I'm quite perplexed that you would think that something this absurd would have.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Took the words right out my mouth, dude.

            1. getitrite profile image82
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              smile

    3. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Would you guys make up your mind? See, the problem is the bible says "you must believe in me or take the painful highway". Are you saying the writers of the bible were wrong?

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this
        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I will not click this link because the last one was offensive.

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Te Christian stance on homosexuality is a much debated issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. He was asked a question and he gave an explanation that he felt suited the question. It is open to criticism but in fullness is not the same issue as the existence of God.

            I do not want a situation in which the point of this hub is side tracked by another topic which is still highly contested. Let us stick to the topic at hand and with that I apologise for diverting with that video. I mistakenly put the wrong link up.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              His entire premise was flawed. He said sexuality should be sacred, sexuality includes homosexuality which would make homosexuality sacred. Claiming God made us all and then saying must have made some of us homosexual just so we can not act on it is ignorant. Should he marry a women he doesn't/can't love and wreak her life?

              But I'll leave it.

    4. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this
  17. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Hi guys, please ignore the last video link. The correct link is

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTVOufIzyPY

    So sorry.

  18. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Okay, now that you have posted your argument. I post a question towards Atheists.

    Now please explain to us how an impersonal, amoral first cause through a nonmoral process has produced a moral basis of life?

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You know this is very basic stuff right? I'm gong to be busy trying to make a living today, but I'm sure someone will explain why evolution has given us these qualities (which are not unique to humans) for survival. Or you could google it and avoid the religious links.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry, but that would require a tremendous amount of work, something you should probably do on your own, that is, if you were actually interested, by I suspect you're not at all interested.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I asked a simple question simply because Atheism has no answer to it. I will wait for the answer you have whenever you are ready.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You understand we are emotionally attached to family and friends for survival which was given to us and almost all creatures by evolution. Without if mothers would leave there children behind at birth. The babies who do get carried away with their moms survive and pass on their genetic emotional attachment to the next generation. We can't survive without it, that's why we have these attachments and emotions.

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I think you might have misunderstood the question. At least I will assume you did.

            please explain to us how an impersonal, amoral first cause through a nonmoral process has produced a moral basis of life?

            This is about a moral basis of life not emotions. Morality is certainly not passed on genetically. Or wouldnt you agree?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You don't think a mother leaving her baby behind is a moral issue? You don't think love and compassion have anything to do with morality? Evolution has given most people and understanding of how to take care of other. Most, but not all. From time to time we get the psychopaths which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The thesis that evolution explains all moral conduct requires that such conduct be genetically determined.  Morality rides on the genes, as it were, and one generation passes on favorable morality to the next.

                One of the intriguing problems confronting evolutionary ethics is to solve the apparent paradox of altruism. According to evolutionary theory, natural selection entails that in general only the fittest individuals in any given biological population will survive and reproduce. An organism’s evolutionary telos, or goal, seems to be to promote its own fitness in order to survive long enough to reproduce. In situations where an organism confronts a choice between enhancing its own fitness and enhancing the fitness of others, it would seem to follow that the organism will (or "ought to," or should be expected to) choose to enhance its own fitness.

                What is the evidence, though, that moral virtues are genetic, a random combination of molecules?  Is the fundamental difference between a Mother Teresa and a Hitler their chromosomal makeup?  If so, then how could we ever praise Mother Teresa?  How could a man like Adolph Hitler be truly guilty?

                I used mother Teresa for what she achieved (Regardless of what you think of her later, she did feed millions)

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  morality evolved through society.  It explains why different cultures have different ideals of what they consider to be moral.  For example, cannibals in New guinea see nothing wrong with eating human flesh.  It's celebrated.  In North America, the idea of Cannibalism is repugnant.  Morality began to evolve when human beings had to start working together for survival, when they realized that they had strength in numbers, and they could survive better in groups than they could alone.  As they started to form groups, it became necessary to make rules in order to make living together more feasible.  for example, don't take your neighbor's stuff.  Don't kill people.  etc.  None of these laws originate in the bible - in fact they predate it significantly.  It's rules that govern human interaction and behavior, and it has nothing to do with any first-cause, amoral or moral.  Morality has nothing to do with a belief in god. 

                  Since you like trying to get people to watch videos, I have one for you, that I'm sure you will not only watch, but comment on accordingly.

                  http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-t … ty-4192742

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok now we are getting somewhere. So based on that what is good or bad? Does this mean it is what society determines? In other words, if I took you to New guinea then it is okay for me to eat you/murder you? Does location make a thing right? Is that what Atheism ultimately believes? That murder is okay if it is committed in the right society?

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  She didn't feed millions helped poor people to die a painful and sometimes needless death because the thought the pain brought them closer to God.

                  But that's neither her nor there.

                  A male lion in only concerned for himself as that's all he needs to survive however humans are weak and need a group for survival, in this case we look out for our young and our peers for without them we parish. It's really not that difficult. You have been spoon feed a lie, time to put some thought into it. A look into how other animals that rely on groups for survival and you'll see the same things we have. I wish I had more time for you today, but I've got crap to do and that crap is different than this crap because I get paid to do that crap.

                  1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok, Like I said forget her and your opinions on her and lets try to keep it to the point of the question.

                    My questions hasnt been answered yet by yourself but I will watch the video I was asked to.

                    Also I dont think you fully understand my question. It seems like only JMcFarland does (so far).

  19. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Just before you go unto the discussion on social darwinism. Iunderstand it is not something we must accept or live by as humans are not puppets.

    Evolutionists may be right when they argue that we're not compelled to adopt the morality of evolution.  The danger of social Darwinism, though, is not that society is required to adopt the law of the jungle, but that it is allowed to.  The exploitation of the weak by the strong is morally benign according to this view.

    What Darwinists cannot do is give us a reason why we ought not simply copy nature and destroy those who are weak, unpleasant, costly, or just plain boring.  If all moral options are legitimate, then it's legitimate for the strong to rule the weak.  No moral restraints protect the weak, because moral restraints simply wouldn't exist.


    By the way just so that I can put it out there. You can be an Atheist and not accept Evolution. Accepting one does not mean you must accept the other. So please let me know if you fall into that category and then I will have further questions.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I am an atheist who happens to accept evolution, although I have not studied it as in depth as I would have liked to.  I'm getting there, and reading daily, but with everything else going on, I don't have as much time to devote to study as I used to.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, fair enough. You see the problem I have with Atheism and evolution is that there are a lot of things not explained. I asked those questions to get a reaction from Atheist that discard the "possibility"of God.

        To be fair to you JMcFarland, you seem to be the only one that fully understands what Atheism claims. In your incomplete (as you put it) understanding of evolution, I can honestly say that the part you do know about it, you in fact properly understand (unlike a lot of the atheist here).

        Evolution has no legitimate answer towards the development of morality and what is good or bad.

        If it claims it is what society accepts then it has shot itself in the foot.

        If it claims that people are ultimately good (i.e born good) and so no need for a moral development it has also shot itself in the foot.

        If it claims social Darwinism then it has infact shot itself again.

        These are the three killers of evolution "for me"
        a) Evolution is the result of random events (genetic mutations, deletions, duplications, etc) that are acted upon through the process of natural selection

        b)The ultimate (please pay attention to the word ultimate) goal of every species in evolutionary theory is to reproduce successfully through continued evolution and adaptation to their environment.

        c)Humans are a collection of chemicals fashioned and controlled by genes. Morality is an illusion. Ultimately, the only important behavioral law is survival of the fittest

        The truth is in the absence of God as a moral reference point. Man is forced to allow society (Relative to wherever you live) to decide what is morally acceptable (As JmcFarland correctly pointed out). So you will find societies such as the one in New guinea where cannibalism is in fact "morally" right.

        Here is what Darwinism says about morality

        "Like genes, memes that evolve are "selfish," existing only to replicate themselves. In this view, not only are we lumbering robots controlled by our genes, but we are also controlled by our memes, which do not always agree with our genes."

        The serious implication of this type of thinking is that there are no hard and fast moral laws. Any behavior that fosters the survival and reproduction of the individual with the best genetic make up is evolutionarily selected. This even includes immoral acts such as rape.

        Now I must add that I am only speaking about rape below to buttress a point and not to take us away from the topic at hand

        In a  recent book, A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion,authors Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer claim that rape is "a natural, biological phenomenon that is a product of the human evolutionary heritage," just like "the leopard's spots and the giraffe's elongated neck." In other words, rape is a biological "adaptation" that allows undesirable males the opportunity to pass on their genes. According to Randy Thornhill, "Every feature of every living thing, including human beings, has an underlying evolutionary background. That's not a debatable matter." According to the anthropology department at the University of California Santa Barbara, "That rape might be an adaptation is a reasonable hypothesis to pursue, and the proper framework is intersexual conflict."

        This then raises the question (assuming rape is in fact evolutionary) If rape is just an evolutionary adaptation, then how can it be immoral?

        We must also remember that people are ultimately the same, it is society that often makes them behave (Outside of God).

        A little thing I observed that is most prominent with Africans which might help give an example of my point is that, when Africans live in Africa they have no problem throwing dirt on the street floor, eating and throwing the packs down on the road or out of a moving car. However, when the same individuals move to Europe or America its a different story. This "very untidy" behaviour is immediately eliminated. Society becomes the dictator of what is acceptable and years of habit is immediately gone. No one throws dirt out of a moving vehicle any more or indulges in such behaviour.  This is simply because their new society does not allow for it. In other words they did as much as they could until the were told they couldn't. This raises so serious morality questions also. 

        You are correct in saying society determines morality(outside of God) and thus shapes behaviour but this is a real problem if society is immoral (by our own standard) such as the New Guineas cannibals. We then have no right to say to them what they are doing is wrong because "their society allows it and this makes it morally right" (in other words it raise no problems with their conscience).

        I also need to add for the sake of objectivity that Evolutionists can explain reciprocal altruism ("I scratch your back, you scratch mine, one hand washes the other"), but have had difficulty explaining altruistic acts done by humans that are not likely to be returned by the recipient.

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Daniel - while I admittedly have only limited (but continuing) understanding of evolution, I seem to understand it better than you do.  The problems that you've listed are not problems for evolution, and the fact that you've listed them all out like this demonstrates sufficiently to me that you haven't really examined it.  Not even on a surface level.  We can talk after you watch the video.  As for everything else you've said - I do not have the time or the energy to walk you through the baby steps of just a basic understanding of evolution.  If you really wanted to know the answers, I would think that a person that has 3-4 graduate degrees would know how and where to study to uncover your own answers.

          The way it appears to me (and this is solely my opinion based on what I've seen thus far) is that you had evolution explained to you, and you read christian apologetics on the subject by spin doctoring, presuppositional apologists like Ken Ham, Ray Comfort and Ken Hovind and you failed to recognize the fact that they either a) blatantly lied b) ignored evidence that didn't fall in line c) spun out of context what an atheist or evolutionist claimed d) ignored all of the explanations that other had explained to them.  The answers are there, Daniel - if you want to learn about evolution, you cannot rely on the pseudo science by these blatantly false apologists.  They're dishonest and their methods are laughable.  You have to actually read the science - and listen to the people who actually know what they're talking about.  You know enough about evolution to sound smart - but you haven't even scratched the surface, and you seem to be asking atheists who are neither scientists or microbiologists to go step by step to explain it to you by bringing up "problems" that aren't really problems at all - only regurgitated, common crap from would-be apologists.  I don't have the time or the desire to walk you through everything, I'm sorry.  If you want to know the answers, you have to actually do the work yourself - just like I did.  Just like every other atheist I know did.  What I'm guessing is that you don't really want to know.  You just want to develop your own talking points against your idea of evolution (which isn't correct) to try and stump atheists so that when they refuse to take a good chunk of their time to walk you through it (which you'd probably ignore) you claim victory in that these areas can't be explained.  They can.  You just haven't looked for it.

          Lastly, I think you have a misconception about atheism and evolution.  They are not connected.  My atheism has nothing to do with my acceptance of evolution.  Even if evolution was disproved tomorrow, I'd still be an atheist.  You need to learn how to separate the two and treat them as two different issues - because they are.

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            First things first, I haven't insulted you so no point doing that. Now going back to the topic at hand.

            I never said Evolution and Atheism are the same as a matter of fact I said the opposite of that. Do you remember you replying me saying you were infact both?

            You claim I have not studied evolution, I argue the same about you.

            You claim I am asking Atheist here about evolution. Why not? They claim it is what disproves the existence of God. I think they make it a valid question.

            You say I am too lazy to study it, I have a counter argument. I have studied it in depth and actually know its limitations (hence me pointing to evolution and morality).

            You say I am too lazy, I say you don't have a justifiable reason and hence put up a smoke with insults about education. Its the same for Radman.

            1. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No atheist I know believes that evolution disproves the existence of god.  It doesn't even addressthe origins of life, so how could it.

              I've admitted that I haven't studied evolution in depth several times.  So what?  If you've truly studied evolution in depth, why are you focused on one of the most ridiculous, child like arguments against it, morality.

              Asking atheists about evolution is silly.  I'm not a microbiologist.  Why not ask a scientist our sociologist if you wasn't an in depth explanation.  Interrogating Assn atheist with self admittedly limited knowledge and not even examining the video I linked you to shows me that you're not really that serious about finding the answer.  You wanted all of us to watch your video, didn't you?

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I will watch it and get back to you.

                I wasn't directing the question at you to be honest, you just happened to be the one answering. It was directed and many of the readers here who has since argued in favour of evolution as supreme to a belief in God.

                Morality is actually not a childish argument especially when morality is often cited as proof that God does not exist or that our religion is false.

                Do you remember people talking about lack of morality with witch burning and numerous other atrocities Christianity was blamed for here?

                I only spoke about it because people here spoke about it first. It is also in relation with the original topic of this hub.

            2. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Contradict much?



              You've getting your information from religious sources. Open a secular book.

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I dint discover God in truth till a year plus after my first masters degree so you cannot say I only get information from that. I already had an undergrad degree and post grad one before I found God so God is a very late influence in my thinking.  I will admit a part of my belief is total faith in something I do not know (Afterall I have never died and come back to know Heaven is real). I do however trust the person who claims to have done that but that's a different topic, let us not digress. We will eventually get to that.

                1. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Really?  You claim to possess more than one Masters Degree, yet you trust someone who tells you that they have been to heaven?  Did the colleges, that you attended, teach you to think in such an illogical manner?

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm going to try to sell him some prime southern Florida land I inherited a while ago. Right by the water!

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Probably gets them from any one of the many online diploma mills.

  20. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Now JMcFarland you said "
    I accept that the existence of god may be possible, but I find it improbable.  Personal experiences are claimed by many from an endless number of religions worldwide.  All of them attribute the source of their experience to be the god that they already know of and/or believe in.".

    I have only question with regards to that. What about Atheists that converted to Christianity? Is the general consensus that they simply went crazy?  Please bear in mind they also did not know God or believe in him.

    How about people like Nobel prize chemist Christian B. Anfinsen? What about Anne Rice?

    Today there is an estimated over 2 billion Christians in the world? That is at least 33% of the world. Is it really a legitimate argument that they are all crazy?

    Also bear in mind that the idea of "craziness" is in fact relative, just as morality in a world without God. Craziness is defined by society. Think about it, was homosexuality not seen as a sexual perversion by society until recently (1973). Sigmund Freud and subsequent psychoanalytic thinkers considered homosexuality and paraphilias to result from psychosexual regression to an infantile state. Has society not now redefined this again? What happens when and if society redefines sexual deviation again to also exclude paedophilia, bestiality or maybe Necrophilia? How then do we define right or wrong independent of society? Is it going to become individual based?

    After all as you just pointed out  if I was in New guinea with the cannibals and I ate human parts. I would cater to the norm and thus be normal but doing the same in a civilised society makes me "crazy.

    To cut the long story short, in the strictest form of craziness, anything that goes or skews on the left side or right side of the normal curve is a deviation from normal and thus "crazy" by the arguments I have been reading. So 2 billion people (i.e Christians alone, not including all other forms of religion or belief in a God regardless of form) would be in the normal curve and thus (only in the strictest form of the world) Atheism and Agnostics will be skewed towards the right or left side of the curve. We are talking about a normal curve as used in quantitative research. Atheism and Agnostics would legitimately be termed in strict educational circles as being the crazy one if normal is defined by society alone.

    I mean think about it asides yourself and religions position. About 85%  of the world believes in God. The remaining 15% is made up of both people that either do not know or are not sure. Who then is really outside of the curve of normal (believers in a God or Atheist and Agnostics)?

    This means even calling a Christian crazy is an illogical statement (I know not everyone will understand what I just said but it is in fact addressed to those that are of a discerning mind and see things from a logical, God asides perspective).

    The problem with Christianity for centuries has not been Christianity (as demonstrated in the book of Acts of what Christianity should look like) but the rise of religiousness in the church. The holier than thou attitude and mis-interpretation of Gods laws to suit man kinds greed, perversions and ambitions (but that's another story again so I wont digress).

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know what was enough to convince atheists that later converted - and did you really use ANNE RICE as a prime example of your point?  Seriously?  What about serious pastors who deconverted and are now atheists/agnostics.  Frank Templeton use to tour with Billy Graham - hardcore agnostic.  Matt Dillihunty was about to enter the seminary, now he's an atheist activist.  David Smalley was active in the church.  The list goes on and on.  What about the Clergy Project - which helps preachers who are still in the pulpit but no longer believe what they're preaching.  They can't just walk away, when they have no real employment skills other than preaching, and often times their housing, their families, their communities and their jobs are all wrapped up in the ministry, and they need help stepping away with it?

      You also need to define what you consider to be a christian.  Sure, 33% sounds good, but how many of them would really be christians?  If you ask a lot of people about their religious beliefs, they'll tell you that their a christian or a catholic.  When you ask them why, a lot of them will say that's because of the way they were raised or that their parents were.  How many of them actually practice that religion.  Not to mention with over 44000 denominations and sects within christianity, a large majority of those denominations believe that they're right, and they're the "true
      christians - while others that disagree with them are lost.  Some protestants say that catholics aren't real christians at all, and some of the catholics say the same thing about protestants.  Not to mention, this WHOLE argument is an appeal to popularity.  Islam is the largest growing religion in the world - since a lot of people believe in Islam and it's rapidly spreading does that mean that you believe it must be true?

      I never said that christians were crazy.  How many christians do you know actually read the bible, or study the history of the church?  Do they go to  church once a week and call it good?  I'm thinking that there's a direct correlation between atheists that have deconverted and those who have actually studied christianity in depth and followed the evidence.  You keep going back to the absence of morality without a god as the moral compass - and that idea is not only true it's humorous.  I've provided backup for that - but it doesn't seem as though you're really interested in learning about it.  I think you try to make yourself sound smart - but your circular logic, rehashed and regurgitated arguments really don't do anything to help your case.  This is apologetics 101 stuff - not something I would expect from someone that claims to be of your caliper.  Can't you come up with something BETTER than stuff I encounter from high schoolers?

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You raised a few point up until the the last maybe five sentences. Let me try to explain away then.

        First of all, It is difficult to reply everyone as I seem to be the only Christian here for some reason, either that or everyone else who is a Christian is just silent. The part about being called a "fool" was not addressed to you JMCfarland but to Getirite and the likes. It seems an illogical statement to claim Christians are fools and I only tried to explain why.

        Now when speaking about Christians and percentages. I genuinely believe that if only there were as many as only 500,000 genuine Christians, they would change the world.  We do have a lot of people that do not understand the message of Christianity nor do they even try. We have even more that acknowledge him with their lips and deny him with their lives. So in that aspect you do have a valid point.

        This however has nothing to do with believing in a Christian God. They believe in him even though they argue on how best to go about the situation. The belief factor is essentially the same even when they were raised to believe in it.

        I must add that when it comes to talking about catholics, protestants and others, This is infact besides the point. I said about 85% of the world believe in a God. I did not specify that to include only Christians. This is simply belief in a divine deity and as mentioned earlier was directed at getitrite and some of his statements about Christians being fools.

        The fact is that according to the standard of qualitative research we (believers in a divine God) do not fall outside of the norm. Atheists and Agnostics do. I did not propose this as a means of conversion and do not believe it is a rational means of proving God exists. It is just to explain why it is illogical to say Christians are crazy by the same standard which Atheists uphold (A standard absent of God).

        Your video does not provide conclusive evidence of morality outside of God and it uses mis-direction a lot. There are a lot of ideas posted but no evidence supporting the credibility that it will in fact or has in fact worked.  Or is evidence no longer a requirement in Atheism? You say you provided evidence, where is it?  That wasn't evidence.

        Look into the history of societies and people outside of a belief in God and see what they see for evidence of morality outside of God.

        Two people come to mind every time.
        A) Jeffery Dahmer
        B) Friedrich Nietzsche

        Friedrich Nietzsche believed in a morality independent of theistic belief, and stated that morality based upon God "has truth only if God is truth—it stands or falls with faith in God. The product of this belief was Adolf Hitler who was student of Nietzsche's ideologies.

        You claim I have what you described as "circular logic, rehashed and regurgitated arguments" yet in response to something you all say you are I find nothing but ideas and at best "possible explanations".

        I believe that the first effect of not believing in God is to believe in anything.
        There may have been a time when people found it easy to believe in anything. But we are finding it vastly easier to disbelieve anything.

        At the end of the day no matter how much we try to disguise it, A world with God (An independent of man being) is going to be subject to all sorts of moral definitions which will ultimately be defined by man and in order to define it as "fair" it will have to be made according to what the majority wants.

        This means if the majority want a day in the year in which all crime is legal. It could in fact be passed into law.  Who then defines right or worng for you?

        What makes it right for you and wrong for another? Is it ever really going to be more that what society dictates (outside of God)? Who are you to say to the people of New Guinea if you ever visited or got stuck with the cannibal tribe with your partner that the killing of you or your partner for food is wrong?

        I have read and heard the many arguments of Atheism in a bid to disprove the existence of God at a point in my not too distant past. I said earlier, I wasn't always a Christian though I was a church goer. I did not obey the laws of God, nor did I care much for them. I was born to a Muslim father and a Christian mother who both practised their religion yet in that God was nothing more than something I was taught to accept.

        I found God on my own and I know that just as it is not really possible outside of a personal experience with God himself to prove to an Atheist the existence of God. It is also impossible to prove he does not exist.

        NB: I did not use Anne rice to speak about someone who is a "good Christian". I only used her to make a point about strong atheists converting.  The label "Christian" no longer hold up to what it originally meant.

        look at this example in Acts of the Apostles  Chapter 2

        The Fellowship of the Believers

        42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

        This is what the Church is meant to be, even this idea of different churches is man made. Christian just meant  is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christ, a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term Messiah.

        The term was not one we gave ourselves but one that was given to us based on how we acted (in the past). I weep for the Church today, so much has gone wrong.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And Yet, Christians are well represented in prisons while Atheists make up less than 1% of the prison population.

          1. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            But the trick is also to find out who was Christian when they went in. There are several instances of conversion while in prison

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Usually, when prisoners go IN to a prison, their information is gathered, not when they go OUT. smile

              1. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                True, but at the same time, most of those represented in prisons were not Christians when they went IN

                1. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So what were they?

                  1. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't know. I do not have all of the statistics. However, in spite of the commonality of Christianity you still cannot fairly and accurately assert that everyone in prison that is a Christian was actually a Christian when they went in. It's very fair to state that a majority of them might have been Christian (I'm not denying that in the slightest), but also remember that being raised in a Christian household does not a Christian make. Want proof of that, look in the mirror and look at JM. Two examples of people raised in Christian households but are not Christian.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Uh, yes they were, because it was written on their prison bios when they went IN. That's the point and that's where the prison statistics were generated.

                  1. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Now we're getting somewhere. I think we were debating semantics regarding the representation of Christians in prison. I was thinking from a point of those in that are Christian. You were talking about those who were Christians going in.. My bad. we were talking about two different things.. My apologies, ATM

          2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That statement is neither here nor there. Besides a lot of people start to believe in A God when they arrive in jail. I mean Jeffrey Dahmer is a famous example.

            He famously said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?”. He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. He died a reported convert to Christianity.

            Also as there are more self confessed Christians than Atheists, The comparison is incomplete and more importantly were did you get the stats from? Surely you must be speaking about American prisons. Or are you one of those people that thinks the world is just the USA (surely hope not)?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              http://current.com/community/92831935_a … -up-75.htm

              http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

              http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_there_pro … ous_people

              From what I understand the surveys are taken on the way into prison, not on the way out so you can't claim forced conversion.

              You should be aware I'm not American.

              15% - 16% of North Americans Identify as being Atheists while the prison system population is made up of less the 0.2% Atheists.

              Ethics and morality is understood by most Atheists because they understand why they should be good, while most Christians think they have to be good because God is watching. That's why the first question Christians ask Atheists is "what's stopping you from killing or stealing?"

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                To be honest. Your statement reads like you are trying to find a link between crime and Christianity. People very often commit crimes regardless of what religion they believe in or not. It is a human condition. Even the bible speaks about this several times over.

                It is also quite a very tall task and to be honest almost impossible task to find a correlation between Christianity and people in jail. The simple reason is there are too many other variables involved in the mix (As per how someone ends up in jail) to isolate it to just one (Christianity).  In other to do this you will need a controlled and experimental group and the ability to isolate things like, background, history, genetics, race, culture, education, age groups, sex and so many other things.  There is no "known" and provable correlation that Christianity results in many more people being in jail. On the other hand there is with Christianity and people changing their lives for the good, there is with and reformation of character amongst inmates. There is with Christianity and Altruism.

                Now you said "Ethics and morality is understood by most Atheists because they understand why they should be good, while most Christians think they have to be good because God is watching". 

                If you make this claim then the direct assumption is either Atheist have their own individual code of conduct (Specific to each person and unique to them alone) or it is defined by a collection of people (Society). The real question is not "Whats stopping you from killing or stealing?" but more in the frame of "In a society that allows and even endorses killing, paedophilia and cannibalism, what is genuinely stopping you from doing those things? and if you do engage in such what makes it wrong (especially if it doesn't raise any questions in your conscience or society)?

                Are you saying killing is fine if you kill in the right society? Or rape is okay if done in the right place? Or maybe Paedophilia if one only goes to the right place to do it? Or worst case scenario is it all fine if you (Since you might not be restricted by God) decide so?

                You say Atheist understand they should be good, how do they? If every human being is born a "tabular rasa" (blank slate) . Who defines right or wrong when they come into the world? Do they as individuals? or does society?

                Jeffery Dahmer is one of the many serial killers that defined it themselves.
                The cannibals of New guinea is a possible result of society defining it.

                After all, in all truth who is to say to you and be justified that you are wrong if your morality is dependent on you alone? What right do they have to judge you when you don't judge yourself?

                Who is to say the cannibals are wrong if the society they live in says it is right?

                For Christians it is true that God is our moral reference point but one thing I love about the "laws" not advice on Christianity is that they are not given for individuals but society.

                I mean how can you genuinely fault the 10 commandments.

                Exodus 20
                New International Version (NIV)
                The Ten Commandments
                20 And God spoke all these words:
                2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
                3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
                4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
                7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
                8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
                12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
                13 “You shall not murder.
                14 “You shall not commit adultery.
                15 “You shall not steal.
                16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
                17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

                Jesus then seals it with this.
                Mathew 22:34-40

                The Greatest Commandment
                34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
                37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

                The last statement summarises the motives for all the commandments written in the bible. Though I acknowledge that Christians do not always live this in their lives. It is still important to mention that being a follower of Christ simply means obeying what Jesus asked . This is "meant" to be our moral code, regardless of society, regardless of individual inclination, regardless of possible suffering. We live in a world that teaches greed, lust, debauchery and all manners of pleasure which not only hurts each other but very often destroys relationships, bodies and leaves people ship wrecked in emotional turmoil.

                I believe that if everyone spent time caring about the person next to them and not always about themselves the world will change. Look at the example I gave earlier about the acts of the apostles. " They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need". This was a community of brothers and people who loved each other just as God had commanded. This idea of an evil God who wants to see the world destroyed is not true. It is only made true by the evil men do all the in name of God. Men that neither know their God nor understand their God and the thing about the bible is that it even teaches that there will be many men like that. This problem is not going anywhere soon.

                This was Jesus addressing todays Christians in Luke 13: 24-27

                He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
                “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
                26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
                27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

                This is the God I know and my reason for acting in what God defines as morally correct. Regardless of what you think you know about Christianity, God does not like the blood thirsty. He does not love wickedness nor does he asked this from his people. Mankind has made God a liar by calling themselves followers and denying him with our everyday life. We (Christians) have forgotten our first love. This is what David writes about God.
                Psalm 5
                New International Version (NIV)
                For the director of music. For pipes. A psalm of David.

                1 Listen to my words, Lord, consider my lament.
                2 Hear my cry for help, my King and my God, for to you I pray.
                3 In the morning, Lord, you hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before you and wait expectantly.
                4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness; with you, evil people are not welcome.
                5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong;
                6     you destroy those who tell lies. The bloodthirsty and deceitful you, Lord, detest.
                7 But I, by your great love, can come into your house; in reverence I bow down toward your holy temple.

                In the absence of God what is right or wrong for you and how do you come to the conclusion of it? No more theories or postulations. You are a self confessed Atheist and in some cases Agnostics. You all live this life everyday and you are all independent and for some of you intelligent people. How do you decide what is acceptable or not in your personal lives? I am talking about a practical application of your belief or non belief.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Interesting, nothing about slavery or extortion. What stops you from claiming slaves and or using extortion to get them?

                2. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Three destructions of the earth are described in the Bible....one  past and two yet to come. The first destruction came when the Flood covered the earth in the days of Noah, sparing only eight righteous people. (Gen. 6:8) In one of the best-known promises in the Old Testament, however, signified by the rainbow, God promised Noah that He would never again destroy the earth by a flood. Nevertheless, two passages in the Bible predict that God will yet again destroy the earth.   

                  One, destruction will come by fire, after which He will restore all things. (Isaiah 65:17-20) speaks of a restored earth, and (2 Peter 3:4-14) describes the judgment of fire reserved or kept in store "for the day of judgment."   

                  Two, the other destruction is described in our text. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Rev. 21:1)




                  It appears that you are one of those people who doesn't understand your God.


                       
                       Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

                       You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

                       "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

                       A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

                      Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

                      If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

                       All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

                      If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

                      A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)




                  If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but KILL him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



                  How evasive that you have totally ignored the fact that you have been informed, by the atheist on here, that morals predate your imaginary God.  That alone totally debunks your shallow and willfully ignorant opinion that your God commanded us to be moral.  For the majority of the time that Homo Sapiens have been here your God wasn't even invented yet.  How do you explain that?


                  Whatever we use to decide what is acceptable is certainly superior to your bloodthirsty tyrant of a God.  I would never murder the young innocent sons of an entire nation in order to persuade the leader to change his policy.  It seems that your God knows nothing about diplomacy....or, better yet, mercy.  Nor does He know anything about justice....as these young innocent boys had not done anything at all to deserve this cruel act of extreme violence.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It is totally here and there, it shows well beyond a shadow of a doubt that believers are the ones who fill up the prisons.

              1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                As usual, another comment that makes no sense.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  lol Sure, prisons aren't full of believers. They just say they are, but since they're all criminals, they must be lying. lol

  21. John Bull81 profile image60
    John Bull81posted 3 years ago

    Point of correction, people starve in many places around the world, not only in Africa. The world is a  difficult place and it's even worse for animals. I think your understanding of God is a guy in the sky who controls  and knows everything. Read this article, hope it helps http://www.planetadvert.com/post/visito … xist-2279/

    1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      John Bull81.  I have to ask, who is this addressed to? There are so many statements made here over the course of about 5 weeks.

      I mean this as a genuine question.

      1. John Bull81 profile image60
        John Bull81posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It is obviously addressed to the person who asked the question which i believe is you. Did you read the article?

        1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
          Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Okay John Bull81, Not only are you a bit rude. You really should have read what I said properly before posting. Did you even read the post at all or did you just see what you wanted to see?

          I never said God is responsible for anything. As a matter of fact I said the opposite. This was also continued in other conversations on that regards.

          Also the bible says God is omnipotent and Omnipresent so he is everywhere and sees all thing. You really should have read the post first before replying. It doesn't show you in a good light.   

          A word of advice. Don't be too fast to tell us your opinion before reading someone else's statement.

          1. getitrite profile image82
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Good advice.  You should use it.

            1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
              Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              getitrite, why have you refused to make any sense in the last 48 hrs?

              1. getitrite profile image82
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Maybe it's because I have been responding to an extremely nonsensical thread, created by someone who has made no sense at all during the duration of this thread.  I find this whole thread nonsensical, as all of these assertions have been debunked.  It is also highly improbable that anyone stating such shallow nonsense holds any degrees from any REPUTABLE colleges, but even if you do, it is clear that your abilities are no match to the atheist opposition on here.  You have been defeated by everyone one of them, and I'm sure that not one of them believes your fabrications about your intellect and education, as neither has been displayed here.

                1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
                  Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You are a clown, not worth replying. You clearly have nothing of value to add or say. You just rant and rave and add no value. Its a shame you have lived up to my expectations of you...

                  They say empty barrels make the loudest noise.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Personal attack. Not nice... We don't call each other clowns here.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Is that someone with multiple masters degrees says on a public forum? lol

                  3. getitrite profile image82
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Daniel.  I think I am going to report you for this violation of the forum rules.  There was no need to respond with such a blatant direct ad hominem.

                    You must understand that I simply pointed out the obvious.  If you disagree, then disagree, but calling me a CLOWN just because you don't like the truth is not the way to go.

                    This is why I could never stoop to the level of a Christian.  It seems that your God just can't teach some of His followers any self control.

                  4. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Daniel, Please calm down. Don't let anyone break you to the point to where you have to throw out insults.. Your faith is strong. It should not be easily shaken to the point where you have to go there. Come on back.. Take a deep breath

  22. sannyasinman profile image84
    sannyasinmanposted 3 years ago

    . ..  because the God is called Bill Gates, and he prefers to pursue his own agenda . ..

    I read somewhere that it would take just $185 billion to eradicate world hunger. 
    If Bill God Gates really wanted to help the starving in Africa, he would use his billions of dollars to empower them to help themselves. Not give them money or worse (vaccines), but teach them how to grow food, install proper sanitation, clean and reliable water sources, teach them skills so they can create their own wealth, and above all make it THEIR OWN PROJECT which they own and therefore take pride in.

    This is the only way to truly help anyone. Empower them to help themselves.
    Are you listening Mr Gates?

    1. Zelkiiro profile image83
      Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Wait, what? Sounds like you need some required viewing:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0IvM8c-Pew

  23. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago

    Daniel, I'm done with you.  You have claimed to be highly educated but have not demonstrated that to be true in the least, and when backed into a corner, you just insult everyone else and say we're jealous.  Of what, exactly?  Circular logic?  Twisted, repeated arguments?  Hardly.  I would recommend other atheists do the same.  This may be a moot point, due to you being reported for personal attacks.  Goodbye.  I don't believe anything you say, and because your credibility has been irrevocably damaged, I can't take your arguments seriously.  You caused this, and I'm done with you.

    1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
      Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      And when exactly was I backed into a corner that I did not reply? What are you even talking about? Where did you get this false idea from again?

      You all talk about degrees and then when I reply I am made to be the enemy. Did I not mention several times over the last couple of days when I was receiving personal attacks. Where was your moral high ground then?

      I don't need anyone to believe I have a degree or multiple ones. I did not go to school so I can "win" an argument on hubpages. I have said this till the point, I think I sound like a broken record now. I don't care about my degrees and I mentioned it once several weeks ago and you all made a big "song and dance" about it regardless of how many times you all have acknowledge that at the most only one other person here has even an advanced degree. You use it any time you don't have a point and refer to it to insult and not prove a point. JMcFarland, when did I ever question your degree? Please tell me? When you stated it, did I say anything in return? Do you not think its childish to mouth off about something like that?

      You say my credibility has been irrevocably damaged, By who? By you? You openly acknowledge your limitations on the subject you argue about (which was something I respected at first) and then claim to live the life of an Atheist and Agnostic but when confronted you say nothing but go and watch a video of one mans view to explain why and how I live my life.

      I watched the video and responded. I asked question of all Atheist here and never made it personal. I never asked any one to prove their credibility as a person or speaker here (with the exception of when speaking about evolution because you do in fact need at least a basic degree in science to understand it fully).

      I responded when someone claimed JAM and the Red cross were not founded by Christians?  Was It not false? Did I not say it to prove a point that Christian organisations do a lot more for the world than Atheist ones? Was I wrong? Another double standard.

      I responded when it was said that Christians fill up jail cells and other factors such as Sex, Age, Race, Education, Genes, Socialisation, Culture and even location do not play a role. Is that not a crazy argument/stance? How can any logical person even say this when any one of those variables could be more responsible than religion.

      Did I not point and mention the bibles view on morality? did I not mention and point to Gods view on evil men? Did I not address the point about God being evil and man good?

      I asked about Morality and Atheism and all I got is that " we don't need God to decide what is moral", then I asked again if you don't. How do you decide considering humans a born as blank slates? who decides morality for you? You say I have the same arguments yet show nothing or say nothing to counter it except that video of a persons opinion with no verifiable facts. Where is the objectivity you all crave for or ask about? Where was your answer? was your answers not again about University degrees again (what does that have to do with anything again)?

      We have people here saying Christians are essentially evil yet ignoring all the evil done by Atheism. Another double standard. Deepes mind even tried to explain the difference between an actual Christian and a person who just claims it so you know there is a difference.

      I haven't asked you to believe me because I write, I have asked from an everyday in your own personal life perspective what exactly do you believe constitutes wrong and right and what makes your know it is right? Is it society of just your own person opinion? Look at the replies from A troubled man, look at the replies from Getitrite. Is this the first time he has done this? Are they not childish responses directed to insult?

      When I spoke about jealousy was I addressing you JMcFarland? Was I not responding to someone else? Did you look at who it was addressed to? Maybe I need to take a picture of the certificates and put the name Daniel Prideland from hub pages on where the name is to prove I am in fact very educated and silence everyone on this boring irrelevant dribble. Will that help? I wont stoop to that level because as I have said a million times.

      AN EDUCATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONVERSATION AT HAND. IT HAS NEVER BEEN IMPORTANT.

      SO MUCH DOUBLE STANDARD. HOLD YOURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO THE SAME STANDARD YOU POINT FIRST.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That's funny. Only those with a degree in a science are able to understand and comment on evolution folks.

  24. getitrite profile image82
    getitriteposted 3 years ago

    Here is yet another.....



  25. Daniel Prideland profile image61
    Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago

    Just to clarify the where does God come from question.

    A common argument from atheists and sceptics here is that if all things (including but not limited to man) need  a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?

    The question sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

    How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

    Definition of God by Oxford dictionary
    noun
    1(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

    Even the definition of GOD speaks to the question and makes it a flawed question.

    NB: It is good to see other Christians actually defend their beliefs now.

    HAPPY SUNDAY TO ALL. CHRISTIANS, HINDUS, AGNOSTICS AND ATHEISTS ALIKE. HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A BLESSED WEEK AHEAD.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I love this. We understand that the universe must have had a beginning. What was before that. we don't know. Was there nothing? No, because all matter was compressed into the singularity. Are there many universes, perhaps. My 14 year old gave me a run down on the many theories just a few days ago.

      But some attribute the beginning to a God that has no beginning and they use Nothing as the explanation as if they know that nothing existed before the universe began. Just a lone entity in nothingness for eternity.

      Sorry Daniel, you clarified Nothing.

      1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I know you are trying to point to the problem of infinite regression but I think you have missed something I said and merged other parts with what someone else said.

        Like I said earlier but will repeat.   "We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence".

        The question is similar (but not the same in application) as the question of what came first, the chicken or the egg?

        Since it is the case that something does now exist, one must logically conclude that something has existed always. Let us state the matter again: If nothing cannot produce something, and yet something exists, then it follows necessarily that something has existed always. The question then becomes this. What is the “something” that has been in existence always?

        In logic, the “law of the excluded middle” states that a thing either is, or it is not. A line either is straight, or it is not straight.
        Let us apply this principle to the matter at hand. Something has existed forever. That “something” must be either material in nature, or non-material. If it can be demonstrated that the eternal “something” is not material in nature, then it must follow that the eternal “something” is non-material in nature.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          One problem, you or anyone else can't demonstrate that the eternal "something" is not material in nature, nor can you demonstrate that something non material in nature even exists or that it can create something material in nature.

          Further, nobody is saying that all this came from nothing.

          1. Daniel Prideland profile image61
            Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            @ Rad Man. Interesting statement. I like the way you think.

            Another term for the “non-material” would be “spirit.”  Now I know that we have had the conversation already about trying to prove that Spirit does exist but I will explain further based on "available" evidence.

            The question now becomes — what does the available evidence reveal? Is it the case that “matter” has existed forever, or does the evidence argue that the eternal “something” is non-matter, i.e., spirit?

            Scientists in the world concede that “matter” is not eternal. In his book, Until the Sun Dies (New York: W.W. Norton, 1977), Dr. Robert Jastrow, founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and himself a professed agnostic, describes his perception of the initial creation of the universe. He speaks of that moment when “the first particles of matter appear” , thus, prior to that moment, matter did not exist.

            Subsequently, he declares emphatically that “modern science denies an eternal existence to the Universe?” . There is not a particle of evidence that the universe has existed forever. The very fact that scientists attempt to assign an “age” to the universe is revealing within itself.

            In view of the foregoing, namely that something has always existed, and yet that “something” is not of a material nature, the student of logic is irresistibly forced to the conclusion that the “something” that is eternal is non-material — which means it must be “spirit” in its essence. The Scriptures identify that spirit Being as God. “God is spirit?” (Jn. 4:24) — an uncreated, eternal Spirit Being.
            Both Scripture and logic, then, in marvelous concert, testify to the fact that God is eternal. He had no origin.

            Also the idea behind Who created God is also only valid if bound by time.

            The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:

            "And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: 'Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.' Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses (This might be an assumption but it is still a very valid one)?

            How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Which is yet another term called the "non-existent"



              No, spirits have never been shown to exist, there is no evidence whatsoever.



              Sorry, if the good Dr. Jastrow is miffed that scientists are basing their understanding on evidence rather than a holy book. That's how science works, incidentally.



              That is completely bogus logic, based on false premises and conclusions.



              No, your false premises and conclusions testify to that.



              What is exactly valid about that? Plato's concept of time is merely a representation of properties of the physical universe, it has nothing to do with Moses.

              However, the concept of time that physics explains is a property of the universe, along with other dimensions, and it is this in which Christian apologists now create their wacky interpretations.



              Unfortunately, that is a meaningless statement since anything outside of time must be outside of the universe, which would mean gods are not part of our universe, which means they don't exist in our universe, hence they are meaningless.



              That's putting the cart before the horse, time is a measurement of cause and effect, hence it is time that could not exist without cause and effect.



              That is backwards. Cause and effect would have to occur first in order for time to exist.



              Cause and effect would have to exist first before time can exist, this is explained in Genesis where God created everything over a period of six days and rested on the seventh. Obviously, God must have a calendar in order to keep track of his causes and effects. smile

            2. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That's what I thought. You don't understand the concept of what the singularity or the big bang was. The problem with your logic is your attempting to prove the existence of God using logic instead of trying to understand how we go here using logic. How did we get here? God done it. Any number of things may have happened before the big bang, for instance all matter may have been condensing rather than expanding and perhaps we are currently in the expanding phase or perhaps the theory of bubble universes makes more sense, but claiming it's logical to assume a God created the universe while outside of our universe for us is not logical at all. Why would he put us on the outer edge of one of billions of galaxies? Do we need more than one galaxy? Why did he bother making more than one planet? Why did he make planets around other stars? Why are we not the centre of the universe? Why do we need parasites?

              Using comments from a 1977 book is not helping your cause. Our understanding of the universe has changed a lot since 1977.

      2. Daniel Prideland profile image61
        Daniel Pridelandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Also I forgot to add

        God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Again, no one is saying all mater came from nothing. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of the singularity.

          Where did you get this information about God and your understanding of time?